October 21, 2025 • 47 mins
What does it look like for a church’s budget, bylaws, and building to reflect the values of justice and faith?
In this episode of the Future Christian Podcast, host Loren Richmond Jr. speaks with Rev. Dr. Sheryl Johnson, theologian, ethicist, and author of Serving Money, Serving God: Aligning Radical Justice, Christian Practice, and Church Life (Fortress Press, 2023). Together they explore how churches can move beyond good intentions to embody justice through everyday practices—especially around finance, fundraising, stewardship, and administration.
They discuss:
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Why church administration is theological, not just logistical
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How job postings and pay scales reveal a congregation’s real values
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The pitfalls of donor-centered fundraising and better alternatives
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Honest communication about money, failure, and hope
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How churches can make ethical decisions about property and buildings
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What it means to see the local church as a foretaste of God’s reign
Sheryl challenges pastors and leaders to re-imagine what “faithful stewardship” truly means in today’s world—where economic justice, transparency, and collaboration are essential for credible ministry.
Sheryl Johnson (she/her) is a settler on Ohlone land and was born in Treaty 1 Territory in what is colonially known as Winnipeg, Canada. She began teaching at Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in the fall of 2020, as she was defending her PhD in Theology and Ethics at Graduate Theological Union. Her dissertation focused on the intersections of social justice (racial, economic, gender, etc) and ecclesial practices (specifically stewardship, finance, and polity). A book based on her dissertation, Serving Money, Serving God: Aligning Radical Justice, Christian Practice, and Church Life, was published by Fortress Press in 2023. Sheryl is an ordained minister in the United Church of Canada, with dual standing in the United Church of Christ. Sheryl has served several congregations, campus ministries, ecumenical advocacy organizations (especially KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives and the Student Christian Movement/World Student Christian Federation), and global church partners (specifically the National Council of Churches of the Philippines and People's Action Forum in Zambia), in addition to her academic work. She completed her M.Div and MPS degrees at Emmanuel College, University of Toronto and also completed a Certificate of Specialization in Theology and Ecology at the University of St. Michael's College during her theological studies. Sheryl is passionate about embodied, participatory, and critical pedagogies and supporting students to make connections between justice commitments and vocational practices.
Mentioned Resources:
🌐 Website: https://www.sheryljohnsonphd.com/
📖 Her Book: https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506482965/Serving-Money-Serving-God
📖 Her Next Book: The Business of God
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Michelle Van Loon
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Cheryl
Johnson. Cheryl is a settler on Olon land and was
born in Treaty 1 territory in what is colonially
known as Winnipeg, Canada. She began teaching at
UH Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in the
fall of 2020 as UH she was defending her Ph.D. in
(01:07):
theology and ethics at UH Graduate Theological
Union. Her dissertation focused on the
intersections of social justice, racial, economic,
gender, etc. And ecclesial practices, specifically
stewardship, finance, and polity. A book based on
her dissertation, Serving Money, Serving Aligning
(01:28):
Radical Justice, Christian Practice and Church
Life, was published by Fortress Press in 2023.
Cheryl is an ordained minister in the United
Church of Canada with dual standing in the United
Church of Christ. Cheryl is passionate about
embodied, participatory, and critical pedagogies
and supporting students to make connections
(01:51):
between justice commitments and vocational
practices. A reminder before we start today's
convers, please take a moment to subscribe to the
podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian
with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email@,
(02:11):
uh, laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
questions or ideas for future episodes. We
appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern
the future of the church.
Loren (02:33):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased
to be joined by Reverend Dr. Cheryl Johnson. Hello
and welcome to the podcast.
Sheryl Johnson (02:43):
Thanks so much. Glad to be here.
Loren (02:46):
Looking forward to having this conversation with
you. Is there anything else you want to say about
yourself for our listeners?
Sheryl Johnson (02:52):
Yeah, I mean, just I, uh, would add that I love,
um, backpacking, I love the outdoors, I love
exploring new places, and I love having good
conversations. So happy to get to have that today
with you all.
Loren (03:04):
Yeah, I hope we will have a good conversation for
sure today. Share, if you would, a little bit
about your faith journey, what that looked like in
the past and what that looks like today.
Sheryl Johnson (03:13):
Great question. I would say I'm. I feel very
fortunate. I grew up, um, in A mainline church
that was, um, committed to, um, serving others, to
be an expansive understanding of faith, uh,
working alongside people of other faiths. So for
me, I feel like I had um, yeah, a good upbring in
(03:34):
the church. Definitely a lot of service projects,
um, a lot of really supportive, um, mentors. So
for me, um, church was a really affirming and
supportive, uh, place. And I got invited into a
lot of leadership roles too, from a young age. So
that was a huge privilege.
Loren (03:50):
And share a few, Excuse me, Share a few words.
Kind of how you found your way into ministry from
that.
Sheryl Johnson (03:54):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, um,
a lot of it was, you know, from, from those
mentors about the power of faith communities to do
good in the world, to support both internally, um,
members, but then also to engage those members and
equip those members, uh, for work and service to
the community. To me that seemed really exciting.
(04:14):
There was something maybe a little countercultural
also about going into ministry. That appealed to
me as something that kind of challenges, um, some
of the ideas around productivity, um, in our
world, um, even though ministry can become a lot
of that too. But I think the idea of studying
ancient texts, of wrestling, uh, wrestling with
big questions with folks, um, yeah, to me that
(04:36):
seemed a little countercultural a little bit. Um,
maybe it seemed at least at the time, like a way
to, um, get out of some more competitive spaces,
um, that you maybe kind of not the competition is
bad, but some of those more kind of ruthlessly
competitive or always having to perform spaces
that I had been in. So, um, yeah, that's a little
bit of the story that I'd share.
Loren (04:57):
I mean it sounds a little bit about. Sounds a
little bit like what we're going to talk about. Of
living according to different values.
Sheryl Johnson (05:04):
Exactly.
Martha Tatarnic (05:05):
Yep.
Sheryl Johnson (05:05):
I think it's. You can look back and always find
seeds, um, seeds of every story that start long
before you ever would have imagined.
Loren (05:13):
That's a great point. It's a great point.
Uh, share if you would, any kind of spiritual
practices that you're willing to talk about that
you, you found meaningful.
Sheryl Johnson (05:22):
Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think I love all
of the ones that probably are going to be common
to folks, but um, spending time in nature, spend.
Spending time in meditation and yoga and movement,
all of those really resonate um, with me. But also
just the. The practice of um, you know, being in
new spaces. I think for me kind of getting out of
(05:43):
my patterns, um, being in, in different
communities, um, moving between different spaces.
I think for me is Always very, very spiritual to
be um, not able to just default, you know, kind of
go, go my own patterns. But having to um, be
challenged, to be more present to where I am
because I don't have pattern, uh, to me is always
(06:04):
a spiritual practice.
Loren (06:07):
That's a good one. I can appreciate, even though I
don't appreciate, because I don't like constant
change, but I can appreciate the importance of
setting yourself up for new experiences. So I'm
glad you shared that.
Well, we're here to talk to Cheryl today about her
book Serving Money Serving Aligning Radical
(06:27):
Justice, Christian Practice and Church Life. And I
think. I think as we mentioned we'll kind of. You
already kind of teased about kind of a. A very
strong theme in the book of uh, aligning practice
with your values and which lead. Kind of leads
into. My first question here is early in the book
(06:48):
you stress the importance of being in spaces that
keep us accountable to our values. So kind of talk
more about that and how that was a helpful
framework for you in this book.
Sheryl Johnson (06:59):
Yeah, thanks for the question. I think for me, um,
being in spaces that are going to be reminding us
of our values that are going to be challenging us
to go deeper. I think it's so important because
there's so many spaces around us that are going to
be doing the opposite. You know, I think there's
going to be um. There's always factors around us,
there's advertising. There's just the people that
(07:20):
are around us who um, are going to be shaping us
in other ways. So I think if we want to be
avoiding um, you know, values like materialism or
um, values like um, you know, racial separation,
if we're going to be wanting to value um, other.
Other ways of being. If we're going to be wanting
to um, you know, building a more. Just be building
(07:41):
a more just world, I think um, we need to be kind
of immersed in. In spaces that are going to
support us in doing that and challenge us to go
deeper. And so I think for me a big part of it is
um, just knowing that we're getting this constant
counter programming all the time that's teaching
us um, you know, not sustainably or teaching us
that our value only comes from our productivity.
Loren (08:05):
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that.
Something else again related to this emphasis
again that you have undergirding the whole book,
at least as I read it, is again on this value, uh,
you talk about. So many of us were trained in
these uh, uh, themes of avoiding privilege and
being aware of privilege and Oppression from
(08:28):
theology and care and so much others. But it
doesn't often come up in church admin, church
administration. And it was interesting because I
also recently did a course recently on church
administration and the author made a different but
similar point that when it comes to church admin,
(08:49):
we often just like abandon. Maybe an abandon's too
strong word, but I don't know. Forget act, uh, as
if our Christian values don't exist and purely
operate from a business or marketplace mentality.
Do you want to talk more about the importance of
awareness of values when it comes to church
administration and logistics?
Sheryl Johnson (09:10):
Yeah, thanks for that question. I think it's so
common. I think when we think about social
justice, um, often we think about, okay, we should
have a committee to focus on that, or maybe we
should have an outreach program. We should have
that as a topic for um, a sermon. But I think that
that is important. But, um, it doesn't do
(09:31):
everything if we only talk about something, um, it
doesn't mean that we need to practice living into
that as well. So I think that our church, um,
finances our administrative practices, how we
treat staff, uh, how we treat volunteers. All of
these things are opportunities for us to practice,
um, putting those social justice values, um, into
practice. And also, as I said before, there's a
(09:54):
lot of other wisdom that's going to be, maybe not
wisdom, but there's a lot of, um, worldviews that
are going to be encouraging us not to do that. So,
you know, we might think, well, we should just get
the cheapest products possible, um, you know, for
our, um, for our church because, you know, that'll
save money and that's one worldview that's going
to come in or like, let's see how little we can
get away with paying our staff. Um, some of these
(10:16):
ideas, um, that to me at least, aren't rooted in
our values. Um, they're going to come in when we
are focused on other, other orientations, such as
trying to, um, you know, keep expenses low so that
then we have to do less work to fundraise.
Instance, um, some of those other practices are
going to start to take over if we aren't
constantly reorienting ourselves towards what do
(10:36):
we actually believe and how does that, um,
manifest in this particular aspect of church life?
Loren (10:43):
I suppose this is an easy one to pick on, but
since you mentioned it, and I'm glad you did, I
think it's important to emphasize I get frustrated
when I see churches that definitely label
themselves as progressive and then, you know,
they'll, they'll promote a job listing and be like
$15 an hour, $20 an hour. And you know, maybe in
some places those are great or adequate salaries,
(11:05):
but, you know, certainly not in my neck of the
woods. I know you work in Canada, right? And I
think also the Pacific Northwest. So those are
expensive places to live, I imagine.
Sheryl Johnson (11:15):
Exactly. I think that's a perfect example. Um, I
think that people, you know, and I think that
people in society, you know, they, they read those
job postings even if they're not going to apply
for that job. And I think that tells them
something about our church right there. They,
okay, you know, they're operating according to,
trying to, you know, get away with, um, you know,
maybe the least that they can afford. They, that
they can get away with paying or they're trying
(11:36):
to, um, you know, they're not sort of thinking
about living wages. They're not trying to support
holistic living, or maybe they devalue certain
types of work like the rest of society tends to
devalue custodial work, devalue work with
children, you know, some of these, uh, types of
roles. So I think that even the job posting is a
theological document and it communicates a lot to
the wider public about, um, what we value and what
(11:57):
we practice. And then on the other hand, if we do
the opposite, I think even people who would never
apply for that job are going to see, oh, wow,
they're actually, you know, they're really trying
to support, um, a good life, um, through this, um,
through this salary, for instance. And I think
that that, um, you know, that also from a positive
lens, has potential as well.
Loren (12:18):
Right.
And this is something that I appreciate about your
book, is that you really, again, leaned heavily
into being aligned with your values. You know, you
talk right there about what we hire for and, and
the benefits or, or pay being a theological
statement. I mean, you write that the details of
(12:38):
church, like church life, matter. You know, I'm
thinking you make early on the illustration about
church being a foretaste of, of God's kingdom,
God's reign. Share more about how that helps you
filter decisions when you're working with your own
church or other churches.
Sheryl Johnson (12:58):
Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think in a lot of
ways that comes back to the first question you
asked about being in spaces that help to keep us
accountable to our values. I think that if, in our
churches, if we are having, uh, norms of infusing
justice into everything we do, then I think that
that's going to be modeling for all of our
members, for anyone who comes into contact with
(13:19):
us, um, that's going to give them a vision for
what to do maybe in their own business or in their
own family or um. In their own work, um, and
volunteer work in other places. So I think that
um. It has a matter that it matters on a practical
level that we're helping to model the sort of
values we want to infuse in the rest of society.
(13:39):
Um, but at the same time, I think on a more
theological level, I mean if we are here trying to
um, anticipate um. The. The coming of a realm
where justice is. And God's, um. God's presence is
so infused in everything, I think we need to um,
think about our administration in a way that
really has deep theological significance as well.
(14:01):
So it's not only um, kind of an educational, um,
step, but it's also um. One that's going to have I
think, um, spiritual implications too. We're
forming ourselves, we're forming our communities
and we are um, wanting to infuse um, spirituality
into um, everything we're doing.
Loren (14:24):
Yeah, I know we're harping on this point, but I
think it's an important point. I remember early on
in my pastoral ministry working with the church
that I was on staff at or the solo pastor at, and
trying to have this conversation around their
bylaws and being like, here's how your bylaws
(14:45):
connect to our mission. And there was just this
total disconnect, uh, you know, this. This
unawareness that how they ran the business meeting
or the council meeting. I forget, you know, which
context, how they called it, what. And I'm sure
you've seen that before, right? This disconnect
between they're living out their mission on a
(15:05):
Sunday morning or midweek or whatever during the
week versus how they ran their business meetings.
Sheryl Johnson (15:10):
Yeah, definitely. No, I think that kind of siloed
thinking unfortunately is very common. I think
that we've been. I mean, I think it's an element
of white supremacy, this idea, uh, of siloed
thinking and sort of saying, okay, we can, you
know, do this work. We can work in this way over
here. But when it comes to administration, um, or
it comes to the way we run a meeting, for
(15:31):
instance, um, we can, you know, we have to follow
the models that we think are best and right. And
we're taught that our value neutral, when actually
they're really infused with their own values. So I
think it's. Unfortunately it's very common. But I
do think that there's a lot of potential when we
use other methods for meeting when we rethink our
bylaws or rethink whether or not we even need
(15:51):
perhaps so many bylaws, um, I think that it also
can have um, a huge impact to. Should we re be
kind of jamming with that? Because people don't
expect it and it's so uncommon that I think it
really um, is surprising for folks.
Loren (16:05):
Well, this is something where I appreciate you
talked about naming the forces that shape us.
Because even if someone's like oh, I don't know
about, you know, I know Robert's Rules of War, for
instance, has gotten a lot of grief in recent
years and uh, I don't really have that strong
feelings about Robert's Rules of War, for
instance. But I think even if we're just like
naming like, oh, I've always been taught that
(16:27):
Robert's Rules of Order is how you run the
meeting. Like just being aware of that, for
instance, can help maybe bring more awareness and
like, oh, maybe does Robert's Rules of Order
needed to be like the entire framework through
which I think about meetings or whatever kind of
uh, value or forces that you, you talk about.
Sheryl Johnson (16:46):
Exactly. No, I appreciate that.
Loren (16:47):
Have you seen that played out?
Sheryl Johnson (16:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really helpful to
look at what, what is behind those values and I
think when we can see, you know, what, what aims
are they trying to orient us towards? Are they
trying to orient us towards cost saving or
efficiency or uh, minimizing outward conflict? And
we can look back and say, okay, what's, what's
behind those value, um, certain class norms, for
(17:12):
instance. Is that um, um, a devaluing of the
earth? Is that um, a um, you know, uprising of
certain forms of communication, whatever the case
may be. I think that when we can identify what's
going on, identify what systems it's connected to,
we can then better see, okay, this is why um,
these, these systems are not neutral and why um.
(17:35):
If we are a church that's committed to anti
oppressive principles, then clearly we have to be
very caut about what systems we adopt.
Loren (17:45):
Tell me if you, tell me if you agree with this
statement or what your thoughts are, because I
think about it in this way too. Like in America we
tend to think, like we tend to think that things
are free when there's really nothing free. Right.
There's no such thing as a free lunch. And I
almost wonder, is that too simplistic way to maybe
(18:07):
say it or think about it? There's always a get
unaccounted for costs of what we're affirming. In
some ways, is that fair?
Sheryl Johnson (18:15):
Yeah, I think so. I think that, um. Yeah, maybe
sometimes we think that everything is. Is free.
Maybe sometimes we think that there's nothing
that's free. But all of these, yeah, ideologies,
um, they come from somewhere. And I think if we
are just assuming that they're natural, normal,
inevitable, the best way, um, chances are we are
being deceived. So we need to, uh, figure. Figure
(18:37):
out, um. Yeah. Who. Where did these ideas come
from and how they operating now? Whose voices are
they lifting up and whose voices are they, um,
inhibiting or holding back? For sure.
Loren (18:51):
I want to read a long or sort of a long quote from
your book. Kind of middle of page 66. So you write
that theologically and pastorally. Excuse me,
Pastorally. Can't say that word today. There is
much to be gained by naming and living into
lament, anxiety, frustration and uncertainty. We
allow a community to grapple together with a
(19:13):
challenging situation rather than manipulating
them to feel good so they will want to give. So I
want to set that quote up this way. You know that
your book is, at least as I understand it,
primarily about giving and fundraising. And for
anyone who's received any kind of fundraising
training, it's always like, oh, everything's great
(19:33):
and fabulous, and never let them see like, the
things aren't working. And talk about why you
think it's, uh, so important to have that other
aspect of it.
Sheryl Johnson (19:45):
Yeah, thanks for the question. So, yeah, I mean, I
think it's several reasons. I think that
sometimes, I mean, as you've already, I think,
alluded to, people see through that. People see
through that 100%, you know, positive, always, you
know, constructive, always bigger and better and
newer, and we're gonna, you know, sweep those
issues, um, under the rug, I think. Think it's.
(20:07):
Yeah, it's. It leads to, um, you know, a sense of
in group and out group. You know, the people who
know the real challenges versus the people who are
being, um, kept out of. Out of that information.
That can be, um, one of the challenges. It can be
really. Um, I think it can lead to a sense of
disconnect for people who feel this pressure to
always have a good story to tell, even when things
(20:29):
are going, um, not so well. And also, I think it
doesn't invite, um, the wider community into
figuring out solutions together. I'm not saying
that we should just, you know, dwell in the
negative. I think that's not at all what I'm
trying to say. But I'm saying that if we kind of
are honest about Some of the challenges that we're
facing. We can include others in helping to
(20:49):
overcome them, for instance, or we can at least
share that we're aware of why things haven't
worked before. And here's what we're doing
differently this time, for instance. So I think it
just leads to a more honest, a more integrated,
and a more, um, ultimately participatory community
if we are, um, yeah. Able to share both the
successes and some of the failures and some of the
(21:11):
complexity of what is even success or failure. If
there's disagreement about some of those metrics.
Loren (21:17):
Yeah. And this is something I'm thinking about in
that same section. You know, you talk about. I
won't name the denomination you do in your book,
but, you know, you write about, like, a certain
mainline denomination always being so kind of
like, cheerful and bright about meeting their
(21:38):
goals. And then you kind of did some digging and
we're like, oh, we've actually lowered the goal
each year. It just feels like. I don't know, it
just feels like someone who's paying attention
would be like, you know, I hate to this. It's kind
of a brash way of saying it. Right. But polishing
the turd, so to speak. Right. If you're not being
(21:58):
honest about what's really happening, happening
totally well.
Sheryl Johnson (22:01):
And then when there's these needs for cuts, people
are confused or say, well, where's that coming
from? You always say you meet the goal. You always
have this, you know, um, great story to tell. And
then people feel totally, um, blindsided when
then, you know, all these cuts are. Keep on
happening, and people are like, what is this
disconnect? And I think it leads to people feeling
disengaged from church, leads to people feeling
(22:23):
disillusioned, people feeling like there's secrets
that they're not part of. You know, it's. It's
all, um. It's all really disorienting. Plus, um,
you know, maybe those people might have stepped up
to give more if they had known. Okay, here's
actually, you know, what's needed to sustain the
work or to build the work or whatever the case may
be. I mean, it really cuts people out of creative
(22:44):
solutions and creative engagement when they're
being told, oh, no, don't worry, you know,
everything's fine. You know, that's really not
helpful.
Loren (22:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, I'm really
glad you bring that up. You know, I'm thinking,
obviously, be. There can be a point of going
overboard.
Sheryl Johnson (23:01):
Sure.
Loren (23:01):
At least in my own experience, where you're like.
Where you're like, this is a sinking ship. And
everybody feels like they want to get off of it.
Because I've been there, like, uh, you know, I've
led meetings where it's like, well, we're in a
tough spot, but if we work together, we can make
it through. And we did. And then I've. I've been
outside of meetings where they kind of presented
it as a sinking ship. And then it was like, oh, we
(23:23):
gotta get out of it.
Sheryl Johnson (23:25):
Totally. And I think you're so right to say there.
There's definitely an extreme. The other side. Um,
that. That also we don't want to go to. But I
think there can be, uh, a lot of middle ground for
being both honest about the challenges, but also,
you know, assuring people that leadership are
working on it, um, that there are ideas, that
there are new plans being tried. Um, or just
saying at a certain point, too. I think that not
(23:46):
everything always has to be resurrected in a way.
Maybe, you know, there's just been a decision to
be made that, you know, that.
Martha Tatarnic (23:52):
That.
Sheryl Johnson (23:52):
That a certain thing needs to end. And I think
that's okay. But I think upfront about that, if
that's what we're thinking, and allow for
different voices to weigh in on that and, um, have
space to really process and grieve and lament and,
um, sort of, you know, work together as a
community, um, when those challenging decisions
need to be made.
Loren (24:14):
Yeah. I'm glad you're. I'm glad we're kind of
staying. We're staying on this point because I
think it's really important, and I think you're
bringing up some really good things here. One
about, like, including other people. Because
again, I'm thinking of a situation in a church
where I led where folks were like, oh, I didn't. I
didn't realize we needed more meaning, more money
(24:34):
to start giving more a. Like, I'm thinking of two.
Like you said about, oh, maybe we can't afford
this anymore. Maybe we do need to. To see it, you
know, see it end. And it doesn't have to be, like,
on. On a leader or a small group of leaders making
the hard decision on their own. Yeah. Or at least
(24:55):
I imagine people have been kind of primed for,
like, oh, we're gonna have to make some hard
decisions here.
Sheryl Johnson (25:00):
Totally. Yeah. And I would say it even extends to
rental groups, for instance, even people that we
might not think of as really, you know, taking
ownership of our. Of our church. But a lot of
times when those folks say you know, wait a minute
here. You know, you're not putting an elevator in
because you don't think you could fundraise it.
Wait a minute. You know, let, let us participate.
Let us step in, let us try. And I think that, um,
(25:21):
we don't want to, you know, preclude, um, people's
efforts because I think that a lot of times, um,
yeah, when we share, you know, I think on a
personal level, I think we, many of us have
experienced this when we hold our problems in, no
one can help. Right. And sometimes when we share
that we're struggling with something, um, you
know, sometimes people really step in and surprise
us and help us out in all kinds of ways we
(25:42):
couldn't have anticipated.
Loren (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I'm glad you mentioned
that part too.
I want to talk a little bit more here about
fundraising, specifically. Fundraising, really. It
seems, I don't know, in the last 10, 15 years, at
least from my own training and experience, has
really leaned into donor centered fundraising, as
the term is called. And one of the things I again
(26:06):
appreciate about the book is you kind of question
like, oh, I don't know if this is such a great
model for us to consider in church. And um, I'm
glad you point that out because I know I've talked
about it with other pastors who I'm friends with,
and we're like, well, this feels a little bit
sideways from, you know, talk more about, uh, why
you see that as potentially a problematic model
(26:28):
and what other things we might consider in church.
Yeah.
Sheryl Johnson (26:31):
Thank you. I mean, I think at its core, I think
donor centered fundraising, I think it's about
trying to, um, yeah. Trying to include voices in
the, in programs, not seeing people only for their
money. I think that there, there are reasons why
this has emerged as a, uh, as a trendy approach.
But I would that one of the problems is that when
our donors have a huge sway over our ministries,
(26:54):
over what gets funded, a lot of times that's not
necessarily a decision of the whole community.
It's not necessarily. Sometimes we're put into
these really gray areas where it seems like a
donor is really passionate about, um, music, say,
but actually the wider community, um, is moving in
a different direction. Or maybe, maybe music is
too broad, but say organ music to choose one of
(27:15):
those lightning rods, you know, if they're really
passionate about that and they want to give, um,
you know, huge amount of money, maybe even a
legacy gift. So for, for decades to come, we're
going to have all of this money tied up in being
able to be used only for, for an organ program
when really, um, you know, perhaps the, the needs
of the community are different, they're divergent,
(27:36):
they're evolving. Maybe the people who have less
money, um, perhaps have, have different interests.
And so if we are um, prioritizing the voices of
donors too strongly, I think that. Yeah, it's also
so hard. You know, when you're kind of looking for
money, it's easy to just say, okay, well it's what
we need, but it could still be better than
nothing. And I think we really need to challenge
donors to say, you know, please give us an
(27:57):
unrestricted gift. You know, I, I'm glad to know
you, I'm glad to know you're passionate. But our,
the needs of our community are going to keep
evolving into the future and we don't want to be
um, tied to what we thought um, the future was
going to be at this particular moment in time. And
we need to um, you know, have flexibility to be
able to use funds in different ways.
Loren (28:17):
Yeah, it reminds me, there's a Lutheran church
just down the street like a block from me or a
couple blocks from me. And somehow I found myself
in a, in a conversation meeting with some of them,
um, and the topic came up that they had at one
point had, I feel like a dozen or more kind of
(28:37):
like designated funds, which is not quite the
same, but certainly on track of that kind of
restricted fund accounting, which like you said,
can be, can be a lot I suppose, is a gentle way of
saying, mhm. What have you, how have you. What am
(29:00):
I trying to ask here? How have you, how have you
maybe yourself or advised leaders, pastors to kind
of handle when someone comes to them. It's like,
hey, you know, I've, I've, I'm willing to give
half a million dollars here, but it means like you
can only uh, preach on this tax for instance. I
mean that's an extreme example. But you, you
(29:21):
understand, right?
Sheryl Johnson (29:22):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. No, I think you're,
you're so right. It is, it is tricky and I think
it is really work of um, faithful discipleship
leadership to try to help people to um, you know,
to sort of honor the good intention behind that
gift. Maybe honor, if this is an honor, you know,
maybe it's a gift that they want to make in honor
of someone that they, they loved who has died. You
know, I think you definitely, I think there's a
(29:43):
pastor know, need to, to meet that person to um,
you know, honor, honor that intention. But then I
think to gently work with that person to say, is
there, you know, what's the broadest possible, you
know, um, constraints we could put on this fund?
Or, you know, could we do something that's still
maybe in the spirit, um, of that idea that you
(30:03):
had, but something that's going to be much more
flexible for us, um, into the future, especially
into an uncertain future. And so I think that.
That that's. And I think that's also just the work
of. Of um, of pastoral leadership. I think in. In
conservative churches sometimes there's really a
lot more, um, clarity about what the role and
purpose of churches. And sometimes in our more
(30:24):
mainline or progressive churches, people start to
think, well, I don't actually know what we're
trying to do here exactly, but I know. I know the
building that. I know the building that seems
really concrete and tangible in my mind. And then
to say to people, well, you know, actually our.
Our call here is not to preserve this particular
building, um, know, program forever, but our call
(30:46):
is to, um, you know, be responsive to the gospel
in every time and place. And that has evolved
certainly, um, for thousands of years and it's
going to continue to evolve. So I think it's. It's
really kind of deep work for folks to help them to
um. And help ourselves to know that, um. That
things are going to keep changing and that um, you
know, and you're not always going to do it
(31:07):
perfectly. Sometimes people are going to say, no,
no, no, it's got to still have, you know, some.
Some m. Kind of strings attached. But I think m.
As much as we can, maybe loosen them up. So. Oh,
this is only for organ, you know, programming. Um,
maybe it's more for broader. For the arts. You
know, maybe you can move people in as far as you
can to a more expansive, um, Expansive guidance.
Loren (31:28):
I mean, if anything. Right. It's just going to
make it more work for you or your board or
governing or, you know, body down the road. Have
to. Have to constantly like, oh, are we. Can we
use these funds? Or you know, it's just, uh. I
can. I can imagine being quite a headache down the
road.
Sheryl Johnson (31:47):
Totally.
Loren (31:48):
You did hint at the building topic, which I do
want to explore here in a moment, but I feel like,
you know, is there anything else we could. We
could say. You could say about fundraising or
generosity within the church that we haven't
talked about already that would. You'd want to
say? Because I feel like this is such an important
(32:09):
topic that doesn't get enough conversation.
Sheryl Johnson (32:12):
Yeah, I think it. It's A great topic. And I think
that, um, I think one of the things I would just
add too, is, is not to be afraid of talking about
money. I think that sometimes we just come at this
topic and assume that people don't want to talk
about money, that people, um, don't want to know,
um, you know, the inner workings of church life.
And I really don't think that's. That's true for
(32:34):
the most part. I think a lot of people, um, think
a lot about their personal finances all the time.
Money is a topic that's really front and center on
a lot of people's. Um. I think that the more we
can empower people to share, um, their stresses
and their worries and their realities. You know, I
share in the book that, you know, I know a lot
about people's health conditions as a pastor, but
(32:55):
I know very little, um, about their financial
realities, um, because I think there is all of
this secrecy and the shame for talking about it.
So I do think that, um, you know, empowering
people to be able to, um, share what's going on
for themselves personally, and then when it comes
to the church, I mean, I think that there's a lot
of, um, people who just have no idea how the
(33:15):
church is funded. You know, they think that, oh,
you know, the. The Catholic Church just has tons
of money and you're like, we're Protestant. That
doesn't have anything to do with us. But I think
people just don't know, or they assume, oh,
there's, you know, public grants that cover these
kind of things. Or, you know, there's just so many
misconceptions. And so I think that knowledge is
power. I think a way to invite people into the
(33:36):
fullness of. Of a church's life, um, fullness of,
uh, their own discipleship, is to just, you know,
share. Share where comes from, where it's going,
what the. You know, what the ideas and hopes and
visions are. Because I think that's the other
thing where donors sometimes, you know, when they
hear about, oh, this is what, you know, the thing
that you're really wanting to do in the next five
years, you know, I could help out in some way. So
(33:58):
I think that the more we sort of share and invite,
equip and empower, um, through, you know, not only
sort of direct donations, but other ways that
people can be part of, uh, maybe sharing their
expertise in grant writing, for instance, can be a
way to bring all sorts of new, New, uh, voices and
new hands into the work of church.
Loren (34:17):
Right, right. Yeah.
Thanks for sharing that um, you know, you worked
in or you've worked, right, As I understand in
both the states and in Canada. Like you mentioned
different cultures and values. Like do you think
that's part of it is just like white American
culture? Like, I don't know, is it the same way in
the States or excuse me, in Canada? Like what has
your experience been around, around culture and
(34:39):
money? Like.
Sheryl Johnson (34:41):
Yeah, it's a good question. I do think that there
are a lot of nuances even within kind of Euro
American, Euro Canadian communities. But I do
think, um, yeah, I do think kind of knowing the
particularities, um, of your community is so
helpful, wherever that may be and wherever you may
be rooted. And I do think that, you know, in some
(35:01):
contexts maybe there's a lot more, um, you know,
for instance in the Bay Area there's a lot of
emphasis on startup culture and on. And I think
that really kind of creates creeps into um, to
church life in some ways, if in some ways good.
Um, in terms of wanting to try new things and
other ways sometimes a little bit problematic when
we're like, okay, well let's give you, you know, a
seed grant for this for one year and if, you know,
(35:22):
see if you can become self sustaining or you know,
I think there can be this. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
There can be um, some need for hesitancy. But I
think, yeah, ah, knowing, yeah, knowing your
context is, is always, um, good advice.
Loren (35:37):
Good.
Okay, I gotta ask this question too. I thought
this was interesting. You talk about the
importance of examining how our buildings do or
don't fit our mission and values. So feel free to
speak to that. And I also, you know, one of the
things maybe I'll find the quote here is you talk
about the. Where's the quote about kind of how uh,
(35:59):
buildings or the importance of public buildings,
at least semi public buildings is they're
essentially open to all who pass by. Whereas if
we're just kind of doing home church, it can kind
of get, you know, it homogeneous. You say
demographically homogeneous. Talk more about. I
gave you, gave you a lot here, but feel free to,
to go with what.
Sheryl Johnson (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. I think. Yeah.
Buildings are so tricky. I think that um, often
they are a focus because they are a huge part of
our budget. And I really think that it's easy to
be very pro building or very anti building, um,
without being nuanced. So I think we need to be
nuanced. We need to look around and say, you know,
does our community have tons of church buildings
(36:43):
around or faith community buildings you know, are
there ways that if we were to close, um, our
building that we could potentially, you know,
share a space with another community? Um, is, you
know, what would be the impact, you know, what,
who are our renter groups? How would they be
impacted if we were to do something differently
with our building? Um, you know, if a building
closes houses is, you know, one way to do is just
(37:04):
put it on the open market. Another way is to
really see if it could be redeveloped into, um, a
community space, if some of our renters might, um,
be up for taking it over in some way. So I think
that, you know, even if our building has really
become a burden, um, we don't want to necessarily
just divest ourselves of it and then, you know,
forget about it. I think that we do want to be,
(37:26):
um, careful about thinking about, you know, what's
going to be the impact, um, on us, on our
ministry, on our, um, on, on the people who rely
on our space. And yeah, and I do think it is kind
of trendy right now to say, okay, you know, we're
just going to become a home church or maybe we'll
just rent space. Um, you know, I've rent space in
a school, um, or something like that once a week.
(37:47):
And I think that sometimes, you know, that can be
really, be a good, good decision. It can really,
um, you know, especially say your church was
physically inaccessible, you didn't have an
elevator, and all of a sudden you're meeting in a
space that is accessible and that's, that's
wonderful. But in other cases, I would also
caution you to say, you know, what about the
people, you know, who drop for gift cards, um, off
(38:08):
the street during the week? Are they still going
to be able to, um, to find you if you're just in a
rented space or if you're just meeting in
someone's home, say, you know, and not to say
that, um, that that necessarily means that you
can't ever leave your building. But I think to
really think about what would be the ripple
effects of you staying or going, um, what are the
climate impacts of your building, um, you know,
(38:29):
who's. Whose land, whose indigenous land, what is
the racial history of your community, you know,
who are you, who do you have ethical obl, um, in
terms of, uh, the space and the building that you
have, and how do you kind of include that in your
equation of thinking through what the future
means?
Loren (38:48):
Well, I like this term building nuanced. I think
that's a good way of saying it. And I think if
anything, we could summarize from this too,
because when you saying that, I'm just hearing
lots of time, and I think that's the biggest thing
I see is folks don't. They're not taking the time
to do the work. And by time they're forced to have
these conversations. It's almost too late. So I
(39:10):
imagine you would affirm this too, right? It's
just taking the time to have these conversations.
Sheryl Johnson (39:15):
Definitely. Yeah. I think that often we leave
these conversations until the very last minute,
and then we're sort of forced into certain ways of
being versus, um. I think it's really important
before there is any sort of decision at hand to be
talking about this. Um, also always building
partnerships, you know, looking at what other
faith communities are nearby. How can we work
(39:35):
collaboratively? What other organizations exist? I
think always, um, developing those relationships,
um, before there's any crisis. I think that it's
sort of, you know, part of capitalism and white
supremacy that tells us we got to be, you know,
just, um, asking for help is like a last ditch,
um, effort versus what if we, um, start to work
more collaboratively before there's a crisis? And
(39:55):
then, um, you know, then we have those partners
that we can rely on, that we can lean on, on, um,
in those times where we might come into having to
make a difficult decision, say, about our
building.
Loren (40:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been a good
conversation. The book is Serving Money, Serving
God. Excuse me, Aligning Radical Justice,
Christian Practice and Church Life. Um, let's take
a quick break and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Cheryl
Johnson. And Cheryl, as I'm looking at your book
(40:28):
here, it's really throwing me off because, like,
the subtitle is above the title.
Sheryl Johnson (40:34):
Right. I did not design the COVID.
Loren (40:39):
Oh, boy. Okay, closing questions. You're welcome
to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
to, but if you're pope for a day, what does that
day look like for you?
Sheryl Johnson (40:48):
Hmm. Well, I mean, first of all, I do want to just
name that, you know, I'm not Catholic, and I don't
want to by any means suggest that I understand or
that I, um, that that would be appropriate at all.
But I would say that, you know, to take that, ah,
question, um, in a different way. I would say that
the work of Pope Francis, I mean he, he was
(41:08):
incredible. I think that he did a lot of really
good work, um, especially around some of these
questions of economic justice. So I think if I
were to, um, be Pope, I think I would really want
to just extend that work. I think the Catholic
Church is a huge property owner, uh, one of the
biggest property owners, um, in some communities.
And I think there's a lot of potential for
(41:28):
returning, decolonizing some of those spaces and
for really um. Yeah. Thinking more creatively
about how to serve communities, um, through some
of that property. So it would be a lot to do in
one day. But I think that's some of what I might
try if I could.
Loren (41:45):
No, it's great. Very ambitious day.
Okay. A theologian or historical Christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
Sheryl Johnson (41:54):
Yeah, well, I'm definitely. When I saw that, I
really was thinking more about um, bringing back
to life. And I think that um, that person is prob.
Not often thought of as a theologian. But I do
think that the work of um, Martin Luther King Jr.
Whose life was of course tragically cut short. I
think his work around, um, moving into work
(42:14):
related to um, cross racial economic solidarity,
um, at the end of his life and his work, I think
that that work um, really is so needed still
today. And I know that the Poor People's Campaign
and the work of William Barber and others is
really working to uplift that. But I do think that
um, his particular leaders, um, would be um,
(42:35):
incredible if, If I could uh, resurrect someone.
Loren (42:39):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to give a shout out to
William Barber, uh, same. We're in the same Denom
Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. So shout
out to uh, Dr. Reverend Reverend Dr. William
Barber. So thanks, uh, for mentioning him.
When we think about like our current time and
place, what do you think history will remember?
Sheryl Johnson (42:59):
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean what I hope
history will remember is that this was a moment
of, of great turning. I hope that this will be a
moment when people will have, um, you know, when
things will have gotten really terrible on so many
levels. Um, be that um, you know, the war in Gaza,
be that climate change, be that so many of the
(43:19):
crises, political CRESES in the U.S. everything
that we're facing right now. I really hope that
this will be remembered as a moment, um, the sort
of the rock. The rock bottom in some ways, um, of
history and really a moment where people came
together to turn the world towards greater peace
and justice.
Loren (43:39):
Yeah, those are my favorite kind of responses I
think, because you know, it really is. Presents.
This is, this is a moment of opportunity for
humanity.
Sheryl Johnson (43:48):
Kairos M Time.
Loren (43:49):
That's important. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What uh,
do you hope for the future of Christianity?
Sheryl Johnson (43:54):
Yeah, I hope for the Future of Christianity, a lot
of things. I hope that it will be, um, a faith
that gets renewed, um, through a lot of
creativity, creativity through a lot of um, living
into our values in ways that um, really inspire
people. It's going to be a time of a lot of
experimentation where this community is taking
(44:16):
this path and this community is starting this
social enterprise and this community is um, you
know, going into a wild church model and so many
things. I think this is a really rich time that
Christianity can move away from being somewhat of
a monolith and hopefully towards something that's
going to be um, just part of, part of the
ecosystem of other, other faiths, part of the
(44:36):
ecosystem of all people who are working for peace
and goodness in the world that we can be kind of
right, size ourselves into uh, a really, um,
positive, good contributor to the ecosystem, um,
of the world and the ecosystem of faith.
Loren (44:54):
Let me throw a wild card at you because it
resonates with someone I just talked to few days
ago, Michelle Van Loon, who comes from an
evangelical tradition. But her book is called
Downsizing Evangelicalism. And that's much of what
she talks about in her book is this idea of like,
we just have too much institutions and stuff. And
(45:18):
uh, I think this sort of relates to fundraising,
if, if you will. This idea of like sometimes the
best fundraising approach is to think about, about
what, what really needs to get funded. I mean, is
that, is that fair?
Sheryl Johnson (45:32):
Totally. No, I think you're so right. I think that
often we have really gotten caught up in the sense
of, you know, power looks like having property. It
looks like, you know, we have this picture in our
mind of what it means to be powerful. And I think
that Jesus offers us a model and I think that
we're being called in this moment to a uh, to a
different way of operating that doesn't just look
for prestige, that doesn't look for power, but
(45:54):
instead looks for solidarity and looks for
opportunities, um, um, be conspirators, co
conspirators in the work, um, of building a better
world.
Loren (46:06):
Yeah, I'm glad that came up. I'm m glad that came
up. Okay, where can folks connect with you? Uh,
get the book, all that stuff.
Sheryl Johnson (46:13):
Great question. So, yeah, the book is available,
um, through Fortress Press, um, as well as um,
many other websites. So encourage you to take a
read. Um, I have a professional website that I
think will be linked to as well. Um, yeah, and
always happy to be in touch with folks. So please
do reach out. I'm always happy to have
conversations to help, um, to commiserate. Um,
(46:33):
whatever I can do to support you, um, in your work
and in your ministry. Um, I'm always happy to be
in touch.
Loren (46:40):
Well, this is great. Thank you so much for your
time. I really appreciate the conversation. Hope
it's been helpful for our listeners. So we, uh,
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
Sheryl Johnson (46:51):
Amen.
Loren Richmond (46:59):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch
with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a
(47:21):
favor. Subscribe to the Platform Pod to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Cheryl
Johnson. Cheryl is a settler on Olon land and was
born in Treaty 1 territory in what is colonially
known as Winnipeg, Canada. She began teaching at
UH Pacific Lutheran Theological Seminary in the
fall of 2020 as UH she was defending her Ph.D. in
(01:07):
theology and ethics at UH Graduate Theological
Union. Her dissertation focused on the
intersections of social justice, racial, economic,
gender, etc. And ecclesial practices, specifically
stewardship, finance, and polity. A book based on
her dissertation, Serving Money, Serving Aligning
(01:28):
Radical Justice, Christian Practice and Church
Life, was published by Fortress Press in 2023.
Cheryl is an ordained minister in the United
Church of Canada with dual standing in the United
Church of Christ. Cheryl is passionate about
embodied, participatory, and critical pedagogies
and supporting students to make connections
(01:51):
between justice commitments and vocational
practices. A reminder before we start today's
convers, please take a moment to subscribe to the
podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian
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(02:11):
uh, laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
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the future of the church.
Loren (02:33):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased
to be joined by Reverend Dr. Cheryl Johnson. Hello
and welcome to the podcast.
Sheryl Johnson (02:43):
Thanks so much. Glad to be here.
Loren (02:46):
Looking forward to having this conversation with
you. Is there anything else you want to say about
yourself for our listeners?
Sheryl Johnson (02:52):
Yeah, I mean, just I, uh, would add that I love,
um, backpacking, I love the outdoors, I love
exploring new places, and I love having good
conversations. So happy to get to have that today
with you all.
Loren (03:04):
Yeah, I hope we will have a good conversation for
sure today. Share, if you would, a little bit
about your faith journey, what that looked like in
the past and what that looks like today.
Sheryl Johnson (03:13):
Great question. I would say I'm. I feel very
fortunate. I grew up, um, in A mainline church
that was, um, committed to, um, serving others, to
be an expansive understanding of faith, uh,
working alongside people of other faiths. So for
me, I feel like I had um, yeah, a good upbring in
(03:34):
the church. Definitely a lot of service projects,
um, a lot of really supportive, um, mentors. So
for me, um, church was a really affirming and
supportive, uh, place. And I got invited into a
lot of leadership roles too, from a young age. So
that was a huge privilege.
Loren (03:50):
And share a few, Excuse me, Share a few words.
Kind of how you found your way into ministry from
that.
Sheryl Johnson (03:54):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think for me, um,
a lot of it was, you know, from, from those
mentors about the power of faith communities to do
good in the world, to support both internally, um,
members, but then also to engage those members and
equip those members, uh, for work and service to
the community. To me that seemed really exciting.
(04:14):
There was something maybe a little countercultural
also about going into ministry. That appealed to
me as something that kind of challenges, um, some
of the ideas around productivity, um, in our
world, um, even though ministry can become a lot
of that too. But I think the idea of studying
ancient texts, of wrestling, uh, wrestling with
big questions with folks, um, yeah, to me that
(04:36):
seemed a little countercultural a little bit. Um,
maybe it seemed at least at the time, like a way
to, um, get out of some more competitive spaces,
um, that you maybe kind of not the competition is
bad, but some of those more kind of ruthlessly
competitive or always having to perform spaces
that I had been in. So, um, yeah, that's a little
bit of the story that I'd share.
Loren (04:57):
I mean it sounds a little bit about. Sounds a
little bit like what we're going to talk about. Of
living according to different values.
Sheryl Johnson (05:04):
Exactly.
Martha Tatarnic (05:05):
Yep.
Sheryl Johnson (05:05):
I think it's. You can look back and always find
seeds, um, seeds of every story that start long
before you ever would have imagined.
Loren (05:13):
That's a great point. It's a great point.
Uh, share if you would, any kind of spiritual
practices that you're willing to talk about that
you, you found meaningful.
Sheryl Johnson (05:22):
Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think I love all
of the ones that probably are going to be common
to folks, but um, spending time in nature, spend.
Spending time in meditation and yoga and movement,
all of those really resonate um, with me. But also
just the. The practice of um, you know, being in
new spaces. I think for me kind of getting out of
(05:43):
my patterns, um, being in, in different
communities, um, moving between different spaces.
I think for me is Always very, very spiritual to
be um, not able to just default, you know, kind of
go, go my own patterns. But having to um, be
challenged, to be more present to where I am
because I don't have pattern, uh, to me is always
(06:04):
a spiritual practice.
Loren (06:07):
That's a good one. I can appreciate, even though I
don't appreciate, because I don't like constant
change, but I can appreciate the importance of
setting yourself up for new experiences. So I'm
glad you shared that.
Well, we're here to talk to Cheryl today about her
book Serving Money Serving Aligning Radical
(06:27):
Justice, Christian Practice and Church Life. And I
think. I think as we mentioned we'll kind of. You
already kind of teased about kind of a. A very
strong theme in the book of uh, aligning practice
with your values and which lead. Kind of leads
into. My first question here is early in the book
(06:48):
you stress the importance of being in spaces that
keep us accountable to our values. So kind of talk
more about that and how that was a helpful
framework for you in this book.
Sheryl Johnson (06:59):
Yeah, thanks for the question. I think for me, um,
being in spaces that are going to be reminding us
of our values that are going to be challenging us
to go deeper. I think it's so important because
there's so many spaces around us that are going to
be doing the opposite. You know, I think there's
going to be um. There's always factors around us,
there's advertising. There's just the people that
(07:20):
are around us who um, are going to be shaping us
in other ways. So I think if we want to be
avoiding um, you know, values like materialism or
um, values like um, you know, racial separation,
if we're going to be wanting to value um, other.
Other ways of being. If we're going to be wanting
to um, you know, building a more. Just be building
(07:41):
a more just world, I think um, we need to be kind
of immersed in. In spaces that are going to
support us in doing that and challenge us to go
deeper. And so I think for me a big part of it is
um, just knowing that we're getting this constant
counter programming all the time that's teaching
us um, you know, not sustainably or teaching us
that our value only comes from our productivity.
Loren (08:05):
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that.
Something else again related to this emphasis
again that you have undergirding the whole book,
at least as I read it, is again on this value, uh,
you talk about. So many of us were trained in
these uh, uh, themes of avoiding privilege and
being aware of privilege and Oppression from
(08:28):
theology and care and so much others. But it
doesn't often come up in church admin, church
administration. And it was interesting because I
also recently did a course recently on church
administration and the author made a different but
similar point that when it comes to church admin,
(08:49):
we often just like abandon. Maybe an abandon's too
strong word, but I don't know. Forget act, uh, as
if our Christian values don't exist and purely
operate from a business or marketplace mentality.
Do you want to talk more about the importance of
awareness of values when it comes to church
administration and logistics?
Sheryl Johnson (09:10):
Yeah, thanks for that question. I think it's so
common. I think when we think about social
justice, um, often we think about, okay, we should
have a committee to focus on that, or maybe we
should have an outreach program. We should have
that as a topic for um, a sermon. But I think that
that is important. But, um, it doesn't do
(09:31):
everything if we only talk about something, um, it
doesn't mean that we need to practice living into
that as well. So I think that our church, um,
finances our administrative practices, how we
treat staff, uh, how we treat volunteers. All of
these things are opportunities for us to practice,
um, putting those social justice values, um, into
practice. And also, as I said before, there's a
(09:54):
lot of other wisdom that's going to be, maybe not
wisdom, but there's a lot of, um, worldviews that
are going to be encouraging us not to do that. So,
you know, we might think, well, we should just get
the cheapest products possible, um, you know, for
our, um, for our church because, you know, that'll
save money and that's one worldview that's going
to come in or like, let's see how little we can
get away with paying our staff. Um, some of these
(10:16):
ideas, um, that to me at least, aren't rooted in
our values. Um, they're going to come in when we
are focused on other, other orientations, such as
trying to, um, you know, keep expenses low so that
then we have to do less work to fundraise.
Instance, um, some of those other practices are
going to start to take over if we aren't
constantly reorienting ourselves towards what do
(10:36):
we actually believe and how does that, um,
manifest in this particular aspect of church life?
Loren (10:43):
I suppose this is an easy one to pick on, but
since you mentioned it, and I'm glad you did, I
think it's important to emphasize I get frustrated
when I see churches that definitely label
themselves as progressive and then, you know,
they'll, they'll promote a job listing and be like
$15 an hour, $20 an hour. And you know, maybe in
some places those are great or adequate salaries,
(11:05):
but, you know, certainly not in my neck of the
woods. I know you work in Canada, right? And I
think also the Pacific Northwest. So those are
expensive places to live, I imagine.
Sheryl Johnson (11:15):
Exactly. I think that's a perfect example. Um, I
think that people, you know, and I think that
people in society, you know, they, they read those
job postings even if they're not going to apply
for that job. And I think that tells them
something about our church right there. They,
okay, you know, they're operating according to,
trying to, you know, get away with, um, you know,
maybe the least that they can afford. They, that
they can get away with paying or they're trying
(11:36):
to, um, you know, they're not sort of thinking
about living wages. They're not trying to support
holistic living, or maybe they devalue certain
types of work like the rest of society tends to
devalue custodial work, devalue work with
children, you know, some of these, uh, types of
roles. So I think that even the job posting is a
theological document and it communicates a lot to
the wider public about, um, what we value and what
(11:57):
we practice. And then on the other hand, if we do
the opposite, I think even people who would never
apply for that job are going to see, oh, wow,
they're actually, you know, they're really trying
to support, um, a good life, um, through this, um,
through this salary, for instance. And I think
that that, um, you know, that also from a positive
lens, has potential as well.
Loren (12:18):
Right.
And this is something that I appreciate about your
book, is that you really, again, leaned heavily
into being aligned with your values. You know, you
talk right there about what we hire for and, and
the benefits or, or pay being a theological
statement. I mean, you write that the details of
(12:38):
church, like church life, matter. You know, I'm
thinking you make early on the illustration about
church being a foretaste of, of God's kingdom,
God's reign. Share more about how that helps you
filter decisions when you're working with your own
church or other churches.
Sheryl Johnson (12:58):
Yeah, thanks for that. I mean, I think in a lot of
ways that comes back to the first question you
asked about being in spaces that help to keep us
accountable to our values. I think that if, in our
churches, if we are having, uh, norms of infusing
justice into everything we do, then I think that
that's going to be modeling for all of our
members, for anyone who comes into contact with
(13:19):
us, um, that's going to give them a vision for
what to do maybe in their own business or in their
own family or um. In their own work, um, and
volunteer work in other places. So I think that
um. It has a matter that it matters on a practical
level that we're helping to model the sort of
values we want to infuse in the rest of society.
(13:39):
Um, but at the same time, I think on a more
theological level, I mean if we are here trying to
um, anticipate um. The. The coming of a realm
where justice is. And God's, um. God's presence is
so infused in everything, I think we need to um,
think about our administration in a way that
really has deep theological significance as well.
(14:01):
So it's not only um, kind of an educational, um,
step, but it's also um. One that's going to have I
think, um, spiritual implications too. We're
forming ourselves, we're forming our communities
and we are um, wanting to infuse um, spirituality
into um, everything we're doing.
Loren (14:24):
Yeah, I know we're harping on this point, but I
think it's an important point. I remember early on
in my pastoral ministry working with the church
that I was on staff at or the solo pastor at, and
trying to have this conversation around their
bylaws and being like, here's how your bylaws
(14:45):
connect to our mission. And there was just this
total disconnect, uh, you know, this. This
unawareness that how they ran the business meeting
or the council meeting. I forget, you know, which
context, how they called it, what. And I'm sure
you've seen that before, right? This disconnect
between they're living out their mission on a
(15:05):
Sunday morning or midweek or whatever during the
week versus how they ran their business meetings.
Sheryl Johnson (15:10):
Yeah, definitely. No, I think that kind of siloed
thinking unfortunately is very common. I think
that we've been. I mean, I think it's an element
of white supremacy, this idea, uh, of siloed
thinking and sort of saying, okay, we can, you
know, do this work. We can work in this way over
here. But when it comes to administration, um, or
it comes to the way we run a meeting, for
(15:31):
instance, um, we can, you know, we have to follow
the models that we think are best and right. And
we're taught that our value neutral, when actually
they're really infused with their own values. So I
think it's. Unfortunately it's very common. But I
do think that there's a lot of potential when we
use other methods for meeting when we rethink our
bylaws or rethink whether or not we even need
(15:51):
perhaps so many bylaws, um, I think that it also
can have um, a huge impact to. Should we re be
kind of jamming with that? Because people don't
expect it and it's so uncommon that I think it
really um, is surprising for folks.
Loren (16:05):
Well, this is something where I appreciate you
talked about naming the forces that shape us.
Because even if someone's like oh, I don't know
about, you know, I know Robert's Rules of War, for
instance, has gotten a lot of grief in recent
years and uh, I don't really have that strong
feelings about Robert's Rules of War, for
instance. But I think even if we're just like
naming like, oh, I've always been taught that
(16:27):
Robert's Rules of Order is how you run the
meeting. Like just being aware of that, for
instance, can help maybe bring more awareness and
like, oh, maybe does Robert's Rules of Order
needed to be like the entire framework through
which I think about meetings or whatever kind of
uh, value or forces that you, you talk about.
Sheryl Johnson (16:46):
Exactly. No, I appreciate that.
Loren (16:47):
Have you seen that played out?
Sheryl Johnson (16:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's really helpful to
look at what, what is behind those values and I
think when we can see, you know, what, what aims
are they trying to orient us towards? Are they
trying to orient us towards cost saving or
efficiency or uh, minimizing outward conflict? And
we can look back and say, okay, what's, what's
behind those value, um, certain class norms, for
(17:12):
instance. Is that um, um, a devaluing of the
earth? Is that um, a um, you know, uprising of
certain forms of communication, whatever the case
may be. I think that when we can identify what's
going on, identify what systems it's connected to,
we can then better see, okay, this is why um,
these, these systems are not neutral and why um.
(17:35):
If we are a church that's committed to anti
oppressive principles, then clearly we have to be
very caut about what systems we adopt.
Loren (17:45):
Tell me if you, tell me if you agree with this
statement or what your thoughts are, because I
think about it in this way too. Like in America we
tend to think, like we tend to think that things
are free when there's really nothing free. Right.
There's no such thing as a free lunch. And I
almost wonder, is that too simplistic way to maybe
(18:07):
say it or think about it? There's always a get
unaccounted for costs of what we're affirming. In
some ways, is that fair?
Sheryl Johnson (18:15):
Yeah, I think so. I think that, um. Yeah, maybe
sometimes we think that everything is. Is free.
Maybe sometimes we think that there's nothing
that's free. But all of these, yeah, ideologies,
um, they come from somewhere. And I think if we
are just assuming that they're natural, normal,
inevitable, the best way, um, chances are we are
being deceived. So we need to, uh, figure. Figure
(18:37):
out, um. Yeah. Who. Where did these ideas come
from and how they operating now? Whose voices are
they lifting up and whose voices are they, um,
inhibiting or holding back? For sure.
Loren (18:51):
I want to read a long or sort of a long quote from
your book. Kind of middle of page 66. So you write
that theologically and pastorally. Excuse me,
Pastorally. Can't say that word today. There is
much to be gained by naming and living into
lament, anxiety, frustration and uncertainty. We
allow a community to grapple together with a
(19:13):
challenging situation rather than manipulating
them to feel good so they will want to give. So I
want to set that quote up this way. You know that
your book is, at least as I understand it,
primarily about giving and fundraising. And for
anyone who's received any kind of fundraising
training, it's always like, oh, everything's great
(19:33):
and fabulous, and never let them see like, the
things aren't working. And talk about why you
think it's, uh, so important to have that other
aspect of it.
Sheryl Johnson (19:45):
Yeah, thanks for the question. So, yeah, I mean, I
think it's several reasons. I think that
sometimes, I mean, as you've already, I think,
alluded to, people see through that. People see
through that 100%, you know, positive, always, you
know, constructive, always bigger and better and
newer, and we're gonna, you know, sweep those
issues, um, under the rug, I think. Think it's.
(20:07):
Yeah, it's. It leads to, um, you know, a sense of
in group and out group. You know, the people who
know the real challenges versus the people who are
being, um, kept out of. Out of that information.
That can be, um, one of the challenges. It can be
really. Um, I think it can lead to a sense of
disconnect for people who feel this pressure to
always have a good story to tell, even when things
(20:29):
are going, um, not so well. And also, I think it
doesn't invite, um, the wider community into
figuring out solutions together. I'm not saying
that we should just, you know, dwell in the
negative. I think that's not at all what I'm
trying to say. But I'm saying that if we kind of
are honest about Some of the challenges that we're
facing. We can include others in helping to
(20:49):
overcome them, for instance, or we can at least
share that we're aware of why things haven't
worked before. And here's what we're doing
differently this time, for instance. So I think it
just leads to a more honest, a more integrated,
and a more, um, ultimately participatory community
if we are, um, yeah. Able to share both the
successes and some of the failures and some of the
(21:11):
complexity of what is even success or failure. If
there's disagreement about some of those metrics.
Loren (21:17):
Yeah. And this is something I'm thinking about in
that same section. You know, you talk about. I
won't name the denomination you do in your book,
but, you know, you write about, like, a certain
mainline denomination always being so kind of
like, cheerful and bright about meeting their
(21:38):
goals. And then you kind of did some digging and
we're like, oh, we've actually lowered the goal
each year. It just feels like. I don't know, it
just feels like someone who's paying attention
would be like, you know, I hate to this. It's kind
of a brash way of saying it. Right. But polishing
the turd, so to speak. Right. If you're not being
(21:58):
honest about what's really happening, happening
totally well.
Sheryl Johnson (22:01):
And then when there's these needs for cuts, people
are confused or say, well, where's that coming
from? You always say you meet the goal. You always
have this, you know, um, great story to tell. And
then people feel totally, um, blindsided when
then, you know, all these cuts are. Keep on
happening, and people are like, what is this
disconnect? And I think it leads to people feeling
disengaged from church, leads to people feeling
(22:23):
disillusioned, people feeling like there's secrets
that they're not part of. You know, it's. It's
all, um. It's all really disorienting. Plus, um,
you know, maybe those people might have stepped up
to give more if they had known. Okay, here's
actually, you know, what's needed to sustain the
work or to build the work or whatever the case may
be. I mean, it really cuts people out of creative
(22:44):
solutions and creative engagement when they're
being told, oh, no, don't worry, you know,
everything's fine. You know, that's really not
helpful.
Loren (22:52):
Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, I'm really
glad you bring that up. You know, I'm thinking,
obviously, be. There can be a point of going
overboard.
Sheryl Johnson (23:01):
Sure.
Loren (23:01):
At least in my own experience, where you're like.
Where you're like, this is a sinking ship. And
everybody feels like they want to get off of it.
Because I've been there, like, uh, you know, I've
led meetings where it's like, well, we're in a
tough spot, but if we work together, we can make
it through. And we did. And then I've. I've been
outside of meetings where they kind of presented
it as a sinking ship. And then it was like, oh, we
(23:23):
gotta get out of it.
Sheryl Johnson (23:25):
Totally. And I think you're so right to say there.
There's definitely an extreme. The other side. Um,
that. That also we don't want to go to. But I
think there can be, uh, a lot of middle ground for
being both honest about the challenges, but also,
you know, assuring people that leadership are
working on it, um, that there are ideas, that
there are new plans being tried. Um, or just
saying at a certain point, too. I think that not
(23:46):
everything always has to be resurrected in a way.
Maybe, you know, there's just been a decision to
be made that, you know, that.
Martha Tatarnic (23:52):
That.
Sheryl Johnson (23:52):
That a certain thing needs to end. And I think
that's okay. But I think upfront about that, if
that's what we're thinking, and allow for
different voices to weigh in on that and, um, have
space to really process and grieve and lament and,
um, sort of, you know, work together as a
community, um, when those challenging decisions
need to be made.
Loren (24:14):
Yeah. I'm glad you're. I'm glad we're kind of
staying. We're staying on this point because I
think it's really important, and I think you're
bringing up some really good things here. One
about, like, including other people. Because
again, I'm thinking of a situation in a church
where I led where folks were like, oh, I didn't. I
didn't realize we needed more meaning, more money
(24:34):
to start giving more a. Like, I'm thinking of two.
Like you said about, oh, maybe we can't afford
this anymore. Maybe we do need to. To see it, you
know, see it end. And it doesn't have to be, like,
on. On a leader or a small group of leaders making
the hard decision on their own. Yeah. Or at least
(24:55):
I imagine people have been kind of primed for,
like, oh, we're gonna have to make some hard
decisions here.
Sheryl Johnson (25:00):
Totally. Yeah. And I would say it even extends to
rental groups, for instance, even people that we
might not think of as really, you know, taking
ownership of our. Of our church. But a lot of
times when those folks say you know, wait a minute
here. You know, you're not putting an elevator in
because you don't think you could fundraise it.
Wait a minute. You know, let, let us participate.
Let us step in, let us try. And I think that, um,
(25:21):
we don't want to, you know, preclude, um, people's
efforts because I think that a lot of times, um,
yeah, when we share, you know, I think on a
personal level, I think we, many of us have
experienced this when we hold our problems in, no
one can help. Right. And sometimes when we share
that we're struggling with something, um, you
know, sometimes people really step in and surprise
us and help us out in all kinds of ways we
(25:42):
couldn't have anticipated.
Loren (25:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. I'm glad you mentioned
that part too.
I want to talk a little bit more here about
fundraising, specifically. Fundraising, really. It
seems, I don't know, in the last 10, 15 years, at
least from my own training and experience, has
really leaned into donor centered fundraising, as
the term is called. And one of the things I again
(26:06):
appreciate about the book is you kind of question
like, oh, I don't know if this is such a great
model for us to consider in church. And um, I'm
glad you point that out because I know I've talked
about it with other pastors who I'm friends with,
and we're like, well, this feels a little bit
sideways from, you know, talk more about, uh, why
you see that as potentially a problematic model
(26:28):
and what other things we might consider in church.
Yeah.
Sheryl Johnson (26:31):
Thank you. I mean, I think at its core, I think
donor centered fundraising, I think it's about
trying to, um, yeah. Trying to include voices in
the, in programs, not seeing people only for their
money. I think that there, there are reasons why
this has emerged as a, uh, as a trendy approach.
But I would that one of the problems is that when
our donors have a huge sway over our ministries,
(26:54):
over what gets funded, a lot of times that's not
necessarily a decision of the whole community.
It's not necessarily. Sometimes we're put into
these really gray areas where it seems like a
donor is really passionate about, um, music, say,
but actually the wider community, um, is moving in
a different direction. Or maybe, maybe music is
too broad, but say organ music to choose one of
(27:15):
those lightning rods, you know, if they're really
passionate about that and they want to give, um,
you know, huge amount of money, maybe even a
legacy gift. So for, for decades to come, we're
going to have all of this money tied up in being
able to be used only for, for an organ program
when really, um, you know, perhaps the, the needs
of the community are different, they're divergent,
(27:36):
they're evolving. Maybe the people who have less
money, um, perhaps have, have different interests.
And so if we are um, prioritizing the voices of
donors too strongly, I think that. Yeah, it's also
so hard. You know, when you're kind of looking for
money, it's easy to just say, okay, well it's what
we need, but it could still be better than
nothing. And I think we really need to challenge
donors to say, you know, please give us an
(27:57):
unrestricted gift. You know, I, I'm glad to know
you, I'm glad to know you're passionate. But our,
the needs of our community are going to keep
evolving into the future and we don't want to be
um, tied to what we thought um, the future was
going to be at this particular moment in time. And
we need to um, you know, have flexibility to be
able to use funds in different ways.
Loren (28:17):
Yeah, it reminds me, there's a Lutheran church
just down the street like a block from me or a
couple blocks from me. And somehow I found myself
in a, in a conversation meeting with some of them,
um, and the topic came up that they had at one
point had, I feel like a dozen or more kind of
(28:37):
like designated funds, which is not quite the
same, but certainly on track of that kind of
restricted fund accounting, which like you said,
can be, can be a lot I suppose, is a gentle way of
saying, mhm. What have you, how have you. What am
(29:00):
I trying to ask here? How have you, how have you
maybe yourself or advised leaders, pastors to kind
of handle when someone comes to them. It's like,
hey, you know, I've, I've, I'm willing to give
half a million dollars here, but it means like you
can only uh, preach on this tax for instance. I
mean that's an extreme example. But you, you
(29:21):
understand, right?
Sheryl Johnson (29:22):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. No, I think you're,
you're so right. It is, it is tricky and I think
it is really work of um, faithful discipleship
leadership to try to help people to um, you know,
to sort of honor the good intention behind that
gift. Maybe honor, if this is an honor, you know,
maybe it's a gift that they want to make in honor
of someone that they, they loved who has died. You
know, I think you definitely, I think there's a
(29:43):
pastor know, need to, to meet that person to um,
you know, honor, honor that intention. But then I
think to gently work with that person to say, is
there, you know, what's the broadest possible, you
know, um, constraints we could put on this fund?
Or, you know, could we do something that's still
maybe in the spirit, um, of that idea that you
(30:03):
had, but something that's going to be much more
flexible for us, um, into the future, especially
into an uncertain future. And so I think that.
That that's. And I think that's also just the work
of. Of um, of pastoral leadership. I think in. In
conservative churches sometimes there's really a
lot more, um, clarity about what the role and
purpose of churches. And sometimes in our more
(30:24):
mainline or progressive churches, people start to
think, well, I don't actually know what we're
trying to do here exactly, but I know. I know the
building that. I know the building that seems
really concrete and tangible in my mind. And then
to say to people, well, you know, actually our.
Our call here is not to preserve this particular
building, um, know, program forever, but our call
(30:46):
is to, um, you know, be responsive to the gospel
in every time and place. And that has evolved
certainly, um, for thousands of years and it's
going to continue to evolve. So I think it's. It's
really kind of deep work for folks to help them to
um. And help ourselves to know that, um. That
things are going to keep changing and that um, you
know, and you're not always going to do it
(31:07):
perfectly. Sometimes people are going to say, no,
no, no, it's got to still have, you know, some.
Some m. Kind of strings attached. But I think m.
As much as we can, maybe loosen them up. So. Oh,
this is only for organ, you know, programming. Um,
maybe it's more for broader. For the arts. You
know, maybe you can move people in as far as you
can to a more expansive, um, Expansive guidance.
Loren (31:28):
I mean, if anything. Right. It's just going to
make it more work for you or your board or
governing or, you know, body down the road. Have
to. Have to constantly like, oh, are we. Can we
use these funds? Or you know, it's just, uh. I
can. I can imagine being quite a headache down the
road.
Sheryl Johnson (31:47):
Totally.
Loren (31:48):
You did hint at the building topic, which I do
want to explore here in a moment, but I feel like,
you know, is there anything else we could. We
could say. You could say about fundraising or
generosity within the church that we haven't
talked about already that would. You'd want to
say? Because I feel like this is such an important
(32:09):
topic that doesn't get enough conversation.
Sheryl Johnson (32:12):
Yeah, I think it. It's A great topic. And I think
that, um, I think one of the things I would just
add too, is, is not to be afraid of talking about
money. I think that sometimes we just come at this
topic and assume that people don't want to talk
about money, that people, um, don't want to know,
um, you know, the inner workings of church life.
And I really don't think that's. That's true for
(32:34):
the most part. I think a lot of people, um, think
a lot about their personal finances all the time.
Money is a topic that's really front and center on
a lot of people's. Um. I think that the more we
can empower people to share, um, their stresses
and their worries and their realities. You know, I
share in the book that, you know, I know a lot
about people's health conditions as a pastor, but
(32:55):
I know very little, um, about their financial
realities, um, because I think there is all of
this secrecy and the shame for talking about it.
So I do think that, um, you know, empowering
people to be able to, um, share what's going on
for themselves personally, and then when it comes
to the church, I mean, I think that there's a lot
of, um, people who just have no idea how the
(33:15):
church is funded. You know, they think that, oh,
you know, the. The Catholic Church just has tons
of money and you're like, we're Protestant. That
doesn't have anything to do with us. But I think
people just don't know, or they assume, oh,
there's, you know, public grants that cover these
kind of things. Or, you know, there's just so many
misconceptions. And so I think that knowledge is
power. I think a way to invite people into the
(33:36):
fullness of. Of a church's life, um, fullness of,
uh, their own discipleship, is to just, you know,
share. Share where comes from, where it's going,
what the. You know, what the ideas and hopes and
visions are. Because I think that's the other
thing where donors sometimes, you know, when they
hear about, oh, this is what, you know, the thing
that you're really wanting to do in the next five
years, you know, I could help out in some way. So
(33:58):
I think that the more we sort of share and invite,
equip and empower, um, through, you know, not only
sort of direct donations, but other ways that
people can be part of, uh, maybe sharing their
expertise in grant writing, for instance, can be a
way to bring all sorts of new, New, uh, voices and
new hands into the work of church.
Loren (34:17):
Right, right. Yeah.
Thanks for sharing that um, you know, you worked
in or you've worked, right, As I understand in
both the states and in Canada. Like you mentioned
different cultures and values. Like do you think
that's part of it is just like white American
culture? Like, I don't know, is it the same way in
the States or excuse me, in Canada? Like what has
your experience been around, around culture and
(34:39):
money? Like.
Sheryl Johnson (34:41):
Yeah, it's a good question. I do think that there
are a lot of nuances even within kind of Euro
American, Euro Canadian communities. But I do
think, um, yeah, I do think kind of knowing the
particularities, um, of your community is so
helpful, wherever that may be and wherever you may
be rooted. And I do think that, you know, in some
(35:01):
contexts maybe there's a lot more, um, you know,
for instance in the Bay Area there's a lot of
emphasis on startup culture and on. And I think
that really kind of creates creeps into um, to
church life in some ways, if in some ways good.
Um, in terms of wanting to try new things and
other ways sometimes a little bit problematic when
we're like, okay, well let's give you, you know, a
seed grant for this for one year and if, you know,
(35:22):
see if you can become self sustaining or you know,
I think there can be this. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
There can be um, some need for hesitancy. But I
think, yeah, ah, knowing, yeah, knowing your
context is, is always, um, good advice.
Loren (35:37):
Good.
Okay, I gotta ask this question too. I thought
this was interesting. You talk about the
importance of examining how our buildings do or
don't fit our mission and values. So feel free to
speak to that. And I also, you know, one of the
things maybe I'll find the quote here is you talk
about the. Where's the quote about kind of how uh,
(35:59):
buildings or the importance of public buildings,
at least semi public buildings is they're
essentially open to all who pass by. Whereas if
we're just kind of doing home church, it can kind
of get, you know, it homogeneous. You say
demographically homogeneous. Talk more about. I
gave you, gave you a lot here, but feel free to,
to go with what.
Sheryl Johnson (36:20):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for that. I think. Yeah.
Buildings are so tricky. I think that um, often
they are a focus because they are a huge part of
our budget. And I really think that it's easy to
be very pro building or very anti building, um,
without being nuanced. So I think we need to be
nuanced. We need to look around and say, you know,
does our community have tons of church buildings
(36:43):
around or faith community buildings you know, are
there ways that if we were to close, um, our
building that we could potentially, you know,
share a space with another community? Um, is, you
know, what would be the impact, you know, what,
who are our renter groups? How would they be
impacted if we were to do something differently
with our building? Um, you know, if a building
closes houses is, you know, one way to do is just
(37:04):
put it on the open market. Another way is to
really see if it could be redeveloped into, um, a
community space, if some of our renters might, um,
be up for taking it over in some way. So I think
that, you know, even if our building has really
become a burden, um, we don't want to necessarily
just divest ourselves of it and then, you know,
forget about it. I think that we do want to be,
(37:26):
um, careful about thinking about, you know, what's
going to be the impact, um, on us, on our
ministry, on our, um, on, on the people who rely
on our space. And yeah, and I do think it is kind
of trendy right now to say, okay, you know, we're
just going to become a home church or maybe we'll
just rent space. Um, you know, I've rent space in
a school, um, or something like that once a week.
(37:47):
And I think that sometimes, you know, that can be
really, be a good, good decision. It can really,
um, you know, especially say your church was
physically inaccessible, you didn't have an
elevator, and all of a sudden you're meeting in a
space that is accessible and that's, that's
wonderful. But in other cases, I would also
caution you to say, you know, what about the
people, you know, who drop for gift cards, um, off
(38:08):
the street during the week? Are they still going
to be able to, um, to find you if you're just in a
rented space or if you're just meeting in
someone's home, say, you know, and not to say
that, um, that that necessarily means that you
can't ever leave your building. But I think to
really think about what would be the ripple
effects of you staying or going, um, what are the
climate impacts of your building, um, you know,
(38:29):
who's. Whose land, whose indigenous land, what is
the racial history of your community, you know,
who are you, who do you have ethical obl, um, in
terms of, uh, the space and the building that you
have, and how do you kind of include that in your
equation of thinking through what the future
means?
Loren (38:48):
Well, I like this term building nuanced. I think
that's a good way of saying it. And I think if
anything, we could summarize from this too,
because when you saying that, I'm just hearing
lots of time, and I think that's the biggest thing
I see is folks don't. They're not taking the time
to do the work. And by time they're forced to have
these conversations. It's almost too late. So I
(39:10):
imagine you would affirm this too, right? It's
just taking the time to have these conversations.
Sheryl Johnson (39:15):
Definitely. Yeah. I think that often we leave
these conversations until the very last minute,
and then we're sort of forced into certain ways of
being versus, um. I think it's really important
before there is any sort of decision at hand to be
talking about this. Um, also always building
partnerships, you know, looking at what other
faith communities are nearby. How can we work
(39:35):
collaboratively? What other organizations exist? I
think always, um, developing those relationships,
um, before there's any crisis. I think that it's
sort of, you know, part of capitalism and white
supremacy that tells us we got to be, you know,
just, um, asking for help is like a last ditch,
um, effort versus what if we, um, start to work
more collaboratively before there's a crisis? And
(39:55):
then, um, you know, then we have those partners
that we can rely on, that we can lean on, on, um,
in those times where we might come into having to
make a difficult decision, say, about our
building.
Loren (40:06):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been a good
conversation. The book is Serving Money, Serving
God. Excuse me, Aligning Radical Justice,
Christian Practice and Church Life. Um, let's take
a quick break and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Cheryl
Johnson. And Cheryl, as I'm looking at your book
(40:28):
here, it's really throwing me off because, like,
the subtitle is above the title.
Sheryl Johnson (40:34):
Right. I did not design the COVID.
Loren (40:39):
Oh, boy. Okay, closing questions. You're welcome
to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
to, but if you're pope for a day, what does that
day look like for you?
Sheryl Johnson (40:48):
Hmm. Well, I mean, first of all, I do want to just
name that, you know, I'm not Catholic, and I don't
want to by any means suggest that I understand or
that I, um, that that would be appropriate at all.
But I would say that, you know, to take that, ah,
question, um, in a different way. I would say that
the work of Pope Francis, I mean he, he was
(41:08):
incredible. I think that he did a lot of really
good work, um, especially around some of these
questions of economic justice. So I think if I
were to, um, be Pope, I think I would really want
to just extend that work. I think the Catholic
Church is a huge property owner, uh, one of the
biggest property owners, um, in some communities.
And I think there's a lot of potential for
(41:28):
returning, decolonizing some of those spaces and
for really um. Yeah. Thinking more creatively
about how to serve communities, um, through some
of that property. So it would be a lot to do in
one day. But I think that's some of what I might
try if I could.
Loren (41:45):
No, it's great. Very ambitious day.
Okay. A theologian or historical Christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
Sheryl Johnson (41:54):
Yeah, well, I'm definitely. When I saw that, I
really was thinking more about um, bringing back
to life. And I think that um, that person is prob.
Not often thought of as a theologian. But I do
think that the work of um, Martin Luther King Jr.
Whose life was of course tragically cut short. I
think his work around, um, moving into work
(42:14):
related to um, cross racial economic solidarity,
um, at the end of his life and his work, I think
that that work um, really is so needed still
today. And I know that the Poor People's Campaign
and the work of William Barber and others is
really working to uplift that. But I do think that
um, his particular leaders, um, would be um,
(42:35):
incredible if, If I could uh, resurrect someone.
Loren (42:39):
Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to give a shout out to
William Barber, uh, same. We're in the same Denom
Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. So shout
out to uh, Dr. Reverend Reverend Dr. William
Barber. So thanks, uh, for mentioning him.
When we think about like our current time and
place, what do you think history will remember?
Sheryl Johnson (42:59):
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean what I hope
history will remember is that this was a moment
of, of great turning. I hope that this will be a
moment when people will have, um, you know, when
things will have gotten really terrible on so many
levels. Um, be that um, you know, the war in Gaza,
be that climate change, be that so many of the
(43:19):
crises, political CRESES in the U.S. everything
that we're facing right now. I really hope that
this will be remembered as a moment, um, the sort
of the rock. The rock bottom in some ways, um, of
history and really a moment where people came
together to turn the world towards greater peace
and justice.
Loren (43:39):
Yeah, those are my favorite kind of responses I
think, because you know, it really is. Presents.
This is, this is a moment of opportunity for
humanity.
Sheryl Johnson (43:48):
Kairos M Time.
Loren (43:49):
That's important. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. What uh,
do you hope for the future of Christianity?
Sheryl Johnson (43:54):
Yeah, I hope for the Future of Christianity, a lot
of things. I hope that it will be, um, a faith
that gets renewed, um, through a lot of
creativity, creativity through a lot of um, living
into our values in ways that um, really inspire
people. It's going to be a time of a lot of
experimentation where this community is taking
(44:16):
this path and this community is starting this
social enterprise and this community is um, you
know, going into a wild church model and so many
things. I think this is a really rich time that
Christianity can move away from being somewhat of
a monolith and hopefully towards something that's
going to be um, just part of, part of the
ecosystem of other, other faiths, part of the
(44:36):
ecosystem of all people who are working for peace
and goodness in the world that we can be kind of
right, size ourselves into uh, a really, um,
positive, good contributor to the ecosystem, um,
of the world and the ecosystem of faith.
Loren (44:54):
Let me throw a wild card at you because it
resonates with someone I just talked to few days
ago, Michelle Van Loon, who comes from an
evangelical tradition. But her book is called
Downsizing Evangelicalism. And that's much of what
she talks about in her book is this idea of like,
we just have too much institutions and stuff. And
(45:18):
uh, I think this sort of relates to fundraising,
if, if you will. This idea of like sometimes the
best fundraising approach is to think about, about
what, what really needs to get funded. I mean, is
that, is that fair?
Sheryl Johnson (45:32):
Totally. No, I think you're so right. I think that
often we have really gotten caught up in the sense
of, you know, power looks like having property. It
looks like, you know, we have this picture in our
mind of what it means to be powerful. And I think
that Jesus offers us a model and I think that
we're being called in this moment to a uh, to a
different way of operating that doesn't just look
for prestige, that doesn't look for power, but
(45:54):
instead looks for solidarity and looks for
opportunities, um, um, be conspirators, co
conspirators in the work, um, of building a better
world.
Loren (46:06):
Yeah, I'm glad that came up. I'm m glad that came
up. Okay, where can folks connect with you? Uh,
get the book, all that stuff.
Sheryl Johnson (46:13):
Great question. So, yeah, the book is available,
um, through Fortress Press, um, as well as um,
many other websites. So encourage you to take a
read. Um, I have a professional website that I
think will be linked to as well. Um, yeah, and
always happy to be in touch with folks. So please
do reach out. I'm always happy to have
conversations to help, um, to commiserate. Um,
(46:33):
whatever I can do to support you, um, in your work
and in your ministry. Um, I'm always happy to be
in touch.
Loren (46:40):
Well, this is great. Thank you so much for your
time. I really appreciate the conversation. Hope
it's been helpful for our listeners. So we, uh,
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
Sheryl Johnson (46:51):
Amen.
Loren Richmond (46:59):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch
with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a
(47:21):
favor. Subscribe to the Platform Pod to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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