November 11, 2025 • 51 mins
What do you do when life falls apart—and you have no idea what to do next?
In this heartfelt episode, Loren Richmond Jr. speaks with Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell, theologian, researcher, and author of Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do and Always On: The Gravity of Joy. Drawing from her own experience of profound grief and transformation, Angela shares how surrender, acceptance, and spiritual practices like meditation can open us to God’s presence—even in silence.
Together, they explore:
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The difference between grasping for control and living in surrender
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How to accept reality as it is without losing hope
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Why prayer isn’t preparation for action—it is action
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Learning from feelings as information, not final truth
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What it means to trust that nothing is wasted in God’s economy
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How pastors and church leaders can find peace and purpose amid decline or loss
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Why healing and joy are still possible, even after tragedy
Whether you’re navigating personal loss or leading through uncertainty in ministry, this conversation offers honesty, theological depth, and hard-won wisdom for finding grace when life doesn’t go according to plan.
Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is a speaker, author, and consultant. She has taught at several schools including Yale and Baylor University. Media sources such as the New York Times, NPR, and the Washington Post have highlighted her research. Dr. Angela is the author of always on, The Gravity of Joy, and a new book, Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do. She’d love to connect with you on Facebook or Instagram @angelagorrell
Mentioned Resources:
🌐 Her website: https://www.angelagorrell.com/
📱 Her socials: @angelagorrell
📖 Her book: Braving Difficult Decisions
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Heather Thompson Day
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Martha Tatarnic
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Keywords / SEO Tags
Angela Williams Gorrell, Braving Difficult Decisions, Always On The Gravity of Joy, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr., Christian leadership, spiritual direction, surrender to God, prayer and healing, faith through suffering, meditation and Christian spirituality, grief and resilience, trauma and faith, pastoral care, nothing wasted in God’s economy, mainline church leadership, church decline and hope, progressive Christian spirituality
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
Reverend Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell Dr. Angela is
a speaker, author, and consultant. She has taught
at several schools, including Yale and Baylor
University. Media sources such as the New York
Times, NPR, and the Washington Post have
(01:08):
highlighted her research. Dr. Angela is the author
of Always on the Gravity of Joy and a new book,
Braving Difficult what to do when you don't know
what to do. A reminder before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
(01:28):
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (01:57):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am
pleased to be welcoming today. Reverend Dr. Angela
Williams Gorell. Hello and thank you for being
here.
>> Angela (02:08):
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Looking
forward to our conversation.
>> Loren (02:13):
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I want to say
this from the top. A lot of times. I shouldn't say
a lot of times, but oftentimes folks that I'll
have on the podcast don't know, necessarily relate
to, like, the ethos or the. The overall themes of
the podcast, but just interesting authors like I
want to talk to. And this is certainly one of
those instances. So I'm hoping it can be relevant
(02:35):
to our listeners. So if you're listening, stay
tuned because this is a. Angela, uh, is a great
book, and I certainly found it helpful, and I hope
it's helpful for our listeners, too.
But before we get into that, anything else you
want to say about yourself? Um, what part of the
world do you find yourself in today?
>> Angela (02:53):
Oh, um, I really appreciate, first of all, your
generous words about my book. Um, I definitely,
you know, when you put something out in the world,
um, you do it well. For me, I did it from a really
vulnerable place of Trying in my own life to
figure some stuff out. And then, um, you're like,
okay. Along the way, a lot of these other people
gave me wisdom, and I'm gonna pass it on. So thank
(03:17):
you so much for your words about that.
I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I am home
today. Not on the road. Um, as I get older, I love
to travel, but also, like, not too much. I'm like,
I love to travel, to speak. I feel really honored
and excited whenever people come, you know, ask me
to. But I also love to be home. And so, especially
(03:39):
in the fall, Santa Fe is a gorgeous little
mountain town. And so it's not hot right now. It's
not freezing. It's just like the most perfect fall
day. I'm really, really grateful for it.
>> Loren (03:53):
Well, thank you. Thanks for sharing that.
Share, if you would, kind of about your
background, your faith journey, what that looked
like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Angela (04:01):
I was raised in the church. Um, I definitely. I
was one of those babies whose parents were, like,
taking me to church the first Sunday after I was
born kind of thing. You know, something that most
parents in a post Covid, or we still have Covid,
but, you know, like, right after a pandemic, we
just can't really imagine it. But my parents.
(04:23):
Parents took me to church and, like, passed me
around to everyone the first Sunday after I was
born. So I was born into a really deeply
Christian, spiritual family. Um, and for me,
growing up, uh, for a number of reasons, it was
not easy to be the child that I was. Um, just I
had a really difficult speech impediment. I was
born deaf, like all these other things we could go
(04:46):
into. But, um, had a hard childhood. Just felt
really disconnected from others in a number of
ways. Um, and then my family, you know, had some
difficulties. And so for me, the church
especially, I started to notice in middle school,
was a sanctuary. For me, it was this place I could
go. It was a safe haven where people mentored me
(05:06):
and helped me and I think really saw me and helped
me to feel seen by God. And so for me, a lot of my
spirituality has been, um, sort of, I think,
grounded in those sentiments and experiences that
I had where I was like, I want to give this away
to other young people. I really saw this in my
(05:29):
own, um. Like, I felt this in my spirit in high
school and in college. Like, I want to go into
ministry so that I can create or help to nurture,
um, a sanctuary, safe havens, and other young
people's lives. I, um, want Them to feel seen by
God, heard by God. I want them to feel like God
cares and for them and loves them and that they
(05:51):
can live in community with other people. Um, and
so that was like the trajectory of my faith and my
life. And then about, um, let's see, almost a
decade ago, um, had a really difficult series of
events in my family where I had three family
members die in four weeks. In really tragic way.
(06:14):
Yeah, in really tragic ways. Um, and at the same
time I was working at Yale University, I was a
researcher, there was a. And I was teaching a
class called Life Worth Living. And I really felt
in my own spirit, like the collision of all these
things. And it really challenged my sense of who
(06:36):
is God? Um, when the world is suffering, where is
God? Um, I really dove deep into this time in my
life where I feel like God went silent. So for all
my life I felt like until this point a decade ago,
I felt like God sees us, God hears us, God loves
us. And then all of a sudden God was silent and I
(06:57):
was like, test it was. It tested sort of every
fundamental thing that I believed about God. And
so in the last decade, I've had to, um, I've had
to answer some big questions around faith myself.
I've had to, um, not. So what I found myself like
(07:18):
leading this class, Life worth living. And one of
the big questions we ask in this class is how
should we respond to suffering? If my life
involves suffering and pain, can my life still be
good? And so I found myself not only leading the
life worth living journey, but also asking and
answering these big questions for myself. And what
(07:40):
I've really, I think, come to like be at peace
with in the last few years is that there are
seasons of faith. And every few years or so, just
like there are seasons of every aspect of our
life, we have to kind of recommit to things. We
have to re examine our values, re examine our
(08:01):
beliefs, re examine our practices and uh, reflect.
And sometimes we edit those, delete those, um, we
add to those, you know, and that's been. So that's
been kind of the period of life that I've been in.
>> Loren (08:17):
Yeah, this is really good stuff already.
I'm thinking. I want to ask this about, like you
mentioned, like the evaluation of practices. I'm
curious if there's any you're willing to share
that maybe something you've had to edit or adjust
as a practice, maybe take on or drop off. Mhm. For
this season of Life.
>> Angela (08:36):
Yeah. I think one of the things that I've had to
um, well, I'm really grateful I had a spiritual
director, um, while I was getting my PhD that
really walked me through a number of, like,
different practices that I could become open to
right before all this tragedy struck in my family.
And, um. And by the way, like this, like. So my
(08:57):
family members died by suicide by opioid
addiction, and my nephew died at 22 of a heart
condition, like, really suddenly. So each. Each
death was not just, like, in rapid succession, but
it was the nature of the deaths that really, like,
pushed against a lot of my, like, the way that I
saw God, saw the world, saw, you know, human
(09:19):
beings, all this stuff. Um, so one of the things
that, um, my spiritual director, when I called her
and I told her about what had happened, and so I
moved away. I used to see her regularly when I
lived in Los Angeles, was getting my PhD. I moved
to Connecticut to work at Yale. And I called her a
number of months, like, about three months after
everything happened. And we met up when I was on
(09:41):
spring break. I went and saw her, and she said,
um. She said, you know, yeah, come see me. Come
see me. And. And we were sitting together, and she
was like, angela, silence is the language of God,
or M. It's one of the languages of God.
>> Loren (09:58):
Right.
>> Angela (09:58):
And I. So it helped me to re. Unders. Like, I
really began to understand the story of Elijah
when he's on the mountain and he's waiting for God
to pass by. Yeah, I started to understand that
story in a very, like, in my own way and in a very
personal, close way. Okay, God's not in the fire.
God's not in the earthquake. You know, God is not
(10:18):
in the whirlwind. And sometimes God is. It wasn't
until I really examined the story that I realized,
oh, wait, there are times in the Bible when God is
in all of these things. But for Elijah and in my
own life, like, God was in the silence. And if. If
I could look for it, listen for it in new ways in
my life. And so, um, meditation became a really
(10:41):
consistent practice in my life that became really
important for me. And so, um, it's. To this day,
over the last few years, I've had to learn a lot
about. About it in order to act. I mean, I've
just. Well, I've had to just practice it. Like,
meditation is not something that you can think
(11:02):
your way through.
>> Loren (11:03):
Yeah.
>> Angela (11:04):
Like, when I say learn about it, I just mean that
I had to, like, watch other people do it. I had to
do an app with it. You know, I had to start with
guided meditation and this and that. But, um,
about a year ago, I joined an online meditation
group and that helped me to practice it even more.
To sit with other people in silence for 20
minutes, um, just became a really powerful way of
(11:29):
like, uh, a few different things. One, in
meditation, you recognize when a thought comes to
you, but then you can imagine putting it into a
little boat and letting it float down the river
away from you. And it doesn't mean it's not
important. It doesn't mean it's not actually a
thing. You know, it just means I'm going to let
this go right now. I'm going to release this right
now. And so that's become, yeah, a way of
(11:52):
listening to God for me. That's been new and
different, but also really healing for me.
>> Loren (11:58):
Yeah, such good stuff here. And I'm looking
forward to talking more about how the book and all
this connects. I want to start with.
So angel is the author of Braving Difficult
Decisions, what to do when youn Don't Know what to
Do. And um. Oh, I'm laughing at that subtitle.
Because this book kind of came to me when I was a
(12:20):
similar context in life where I didn't know what
to do. And I want to start with this. I'm trying
to find the quote here. You write about two ways
of going through life. Um, oops, I'm in the wrong
book. Keep going. Uh, two ways of going through
life. Cher, if you would talk about those two
different ways of going through life.
>> Angela (12:45):
So you can go through life trying to manipulate
everything, fix everything, define everything,
figure out everything, manage everything. I mean,
that's one way to go through life. Just grasping
at control, ultimately at try. If I just. If I
(13:06):
could just do. And you can fill in the blank for
yourself. If I could just get this much more time,
if I could just do this with my money, if I could
just get this much more power or uh, recognition.
If I could just get this person to love me
differently. If I could just get this promotion,
write that book, be that much more powerful,
(13:29):
important. I would love my life better. Like I
would like life more. I would, you know, and so
it's just, it's a, it's an A, uh, One way of
moving through life is to grasp for control
consistently and then the other way. And so you
can picture this if you're listening, and I'm so
(13:49):
glad you're here, if you're listening with us, we
know that you, your time is so precious. And so if
you're cooking or walking or strolling somewhere
or driving. You're listening to us. You could
imagine just walking through life just like, with
your fingertips, trying to grasp at things, or
holding on tightly with your fists closed. Like,
(14:11):
that's one way of moving through life. Another
way, the other way is the invitation, I think of
the Christian faith, which is an invitation to
surrender.
>> Loren (14:21):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (14:21):
It's released. It's letting go. It is saying, God,
I cannot. I don't have control over my finances,
other people. I have no power over my external
environment, like, but, God, you are the one to
whom everything belongs. And so I release it all
(14:43):
to you. I offer it, I make it an offering to you.
And even it's a way. Surrender also looks like
acceptance. M. It looks like I don't like the way
that this is right now, but it is the way that it
is. I accept my circumstances as they are. And
this way of moving through life, a way of, like,
(15:03):
powerlessness, of recognizing that, of surrender,
of offering, is something. I think it's a way of
inviting God in, because God has room and can move
when we live with open hands or in surrender.
>> Loren (15:19):
Yeah, I want to read these words from your book
because they strike me as so similar to, uh, my co
host, Martha Tutornick, has a book, why Gather?
And in the book, she talks about ultra realism. I
think as a practice she's done during her marathon
training. Uh, but you have these quotations. At
this moment, my life is like this. I wish this had
(15:45):
different timing, but this is what it is. Like, I
am laughing through gritted teeth, Angela, here. I
do not like this, but it is what it is right now.
Like, I've had to say these things or very much
similar things to myself in the not too distant
past. And it was helpful for me. And I, uh,
(16:05):
frankly, I frankly, still say things like this to
myself when I think about, like, I have a
tendency. Like, we all do, I imagine. But for me,
I know I have a tendency to, like, compare myself
to other people and other situations and contexts
and careers and situations in life. And I'm like,
you know what? I've chose this. And I probably
shouldn't frame this quite so negatively. But for
(16:27):
me, it's a helpful reminder. Like, I am where I am
because my choices have consequences. So I
appreciate that, um, acceptance of framing reality
as it is. Like, again, these seem, like, harsh,
and maybe I'm making it, um, too harsh. And I'm
(16:52):
wondering. I think some might think, like, oh, we
should be more positive or optimistic or hopeful.
And I certainly don't think you'd be like that.
But what is it really valuable, this kind of stark
realism?
>> Angela (17:04):
Because anything other than acceptance, I think,
looks like resistance. It looks, um, it looks like
resentment, worry, fear, anger. And I. And there's
(17:25):
righteous anger, but I just mean the kind that,
like, eats you from the inside out.
>> Loren (17:29):
Yeah.
>> Angela (17:31):
So I feel like the alternative is to live in
yesterday, uh, and to live in a really negative
perception of yesterday. Or it's to live in a
really, um, unhelpful tomorrow and unhelp, like, a
sort of idolized tomorrow instead of right now.
(17:55):
And I think that there's an invitation by so many
spiritual guides throughout history and that live
today, like, into the now, into the present. Like,
this is my life as it is. So even if I don't like
it, God help me to accept that this is the reality
of my life right now. And then if I can look at
(18:18):
the reality of my life really clearly right now,
m. With those open hands, with surrender, then I
think God can then say, okay, this is the next
right step. You know, Then that's where our prayer
becomes. So it's like, I accept that this is the
reality. Because for so many people, like, yet to
(18:39):
not live in the present and not accept the reality
as it is is either. Like. Like I said, they're
denying their reality. They're living in some
alternative reality, which is so not helpful to
them and probably really unhelpful to the people
around them. Um, you know, they're ignoring the
state of things, so they're not able to, like,
(19:00):
move forward. They're gonna be paralyzed, you
know, or they're living in what could have been if
I had just done A, B, or C. If I had not. If I had
avoided. Right. And then you're just living with
this regret and resentment.
>> Loren (19:15):
Frustration.
>> Angela (19:17):
Yeah. That just, like, weighs you down.
>> Loren (19:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
I want to read this. You write about prayer. This
full quote here. Because I. Again, I think it's so
good you write. People often think prayer is what
happens before or after something, but the prayer
is also a something. It's an action that draws
attention. It's an action that draws attention,
moves us, connects us, can be felt by others,
(19:42):
centers, calms, nurtures, teaches, guides. It is
doing something meaningful even when we aren't
entirely aware of what is happening. The same is
true of surrender.
>> Angela (19:56):
Um, it's always so interesting to hear your words
right back to you. Um, but, yeah, I feel like that
that's something that I've learned in my own
spiritual life, you know, is that when I pray,
it's not just, you know, because like pray is. We
can think of it sometimes as like the first way of
going through life. If I could just manipulate God
(20:17):
enough, if I could, you know, just control God
enough, or my circumstance, if I could just
manifest this with my brain, like then this will
happen the way I want it to, but instead I feel
like prayer in my own study and experience of it.
Um, and like I said, a number of spiritual guides
who've taught me over the years, through their
(20:37):
books, through their TED talks, through their
podcasts, like, whatever, through their preaching
is like, no, prayer doesn't. It shifts me in
alignment with God. Like, prayer is literally like
aligning my will with God's. If I pray God, I want
to see, like, you see, I want my heart to break
for the things that break your heart. I want to
(20:58):
long for what you want me to long for. I want to
be in relationship with my circumstances in the
ways that you want me to. Um, you know, and so,
yeah, and then prayer is that calming. It can be
that shift, like God, release me from the bondage
of fear, of worry, of resentment, of regret, and
then instill in me humility and truth and love.
(21:21):
Whatever you need God to put into your spirit,
like we can be praying for those things, you know.
>> Loren (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
Something that also stood out to me was you talk
about the importance of understanding feelings as
information, but not as stopping points.
>> Angela (21:38):
Mhm.
>> Loren (21:38):
Talk about that. The importance of making that
distinction.
>> Angela (21:43):
Yeah. So I'm not somebody who says like, feelings
don't matter or, you know, feelings are, um,
always. I think some people feel like, feel, um,
like that feelings are always like there to like,
take you astray and like, don't give in to them,
you know, um, or whatever. But feelings are
information in the sense that they do signal
(22:04):
something. So feelings start as motions, energy
and motion in our body. And then we tell ourselves
the story of what has happened. And that story of
what has happened has really good data or
information for us, for us to attend to. Okay, so
I had an experience with this person, in this
(22:25):
place, with these people. I told myself this
thing. And so then we can say, okay, what's true
there? Is there something I need to be paying
attention to? Like, is there a reason why I need,
you know, that I'm, I'm noticing that I'm angry?
Is there a reason why I'm nervous? Or, um, is
there a reason that I need to fear? Like, is there
(22:45):
something like, you know, so I think that God can
speak to us through Our feelings, like, the way
that we make sense of our experiences and that God
gave us feelings for a reason, you know, And I
point out this in the book, that in the life of
Jesus, we see feelings like anger, we see him get
(23:06):
really upset, we see him weeping. And so they're
like, to, to express emotions is to be incredibly
human. You know, it's a very human, important
thing. But then I don't think we want to just sit
in difficult feelings. Especially. We don't want
to just live angry, live depressed, lived in, live
(23:27):
in gloom, live fearful. No, like, we want to use
this information. We want to work through our
feelings constructively and then, you know, figure
out the right next step.
>> Loren (23:38):
Yeah, I think that's so important because, like, I
see the opposite sometimes where it's like, my
feelings are facts, my feelings are gospel. And,
like, and I appreciate your point you're making
of, like, what is, what can I learn from my
feelings? What are they teaching me rather than me
just staying in them?
I want to move on to this idea that I think is
(24:01):
very profound and also, I think sometimes hard to
accept. I was thinking about, I'm not sure if
you're familiar with Heather Thompson Day. I had
her on podcast, like, three years ago, and she
wrote, I think, this book, like, when it's not
your turn. And basically, if I remember correctly,
it was basically like, how to similar kind of book
(24:25):
to what you wrote, like, how to deal with life
when things don't seem to be going your way. And,
like, I feel like she had a very similar theme of,
like, trusting that we're part of God's bigger
story. And again, I want to just read this quote
here because I, I, it was profound to me. You
write, you and me were also part of a great story
being told. And I like that you capitalize the G
(24:48):
and the S and great story. We participate in this
story. This is a story that M mysteriously says,
God loves everything and made it all good.
Everyone belongs, and it's all being restored. And
resurrection, not death, always, always gets the
last word. I mean, I read your book, so, uh, you
(25:11):
know, I have some sense that you've been through
some challenging stuff. Like, I read this, I'm
getting emotional myself here. I read this at a
challenging time in my own life. So those words,
like, stuck out to me big time. And I had to,
like, kind of trust, like, God's not through with
me yet. God has a plan. God has a purpose. There's
(25:31):
a bigger story. Yeah, like, what was helpful for
you to kind of just Trust and lean into that.
>> Angela (25:40):
Yeah. Um, there's so many things I could say, but
first of all, Loren, thank you so much for, um,
your vulnerability in this moment and just saying,
you know, I mean, I'm so glad that we are
connecting over both of us having these times in
our life where we're like, okay, I thought I knew
who I was, or, like, I thought I had things
(26:03):
figured out, and then all of a sudden, you know,
I'm m. At this crossroads, or, uh, you know, I
don't know if I have everything figured out or I
don't know what to do. And I'm trying to seek you,
and I'm trying to hear from you. Uh, I think the
thing that I needed to hear in the journey of
writing this book and in the two big decisions
(26:25):
that I was going through a discernment period with
that really shaped this book, um, was that even if
I made a wrong turn, even if I didn't do the right
thing, it was this realization one day that, thank
God, like, my. My decisions don't. Like, God's
(26:49):
story that God is telling in the world don't hinge
on any decision that I make.
>> Loren (26:53):
Yeah. Uh, yeah.
>> Angela (26:53):
You know, and that wherever I go in this life,
whatever I do, whatever I say, like, all of us,
like, are caught up in the grace and the love of
God. That. And that story, like, covers it all,
that I still get to participate in that story, and
God's still telling that story. Like, I. You know,
and so it's like, I both feel the insignificance
(27:15):
of my decisions, which was, like, really helpful
to me. Um, but then I also feel the significance
of my life. Like, you're caught up in that story,
as is everyone else, Angela, you know, and I. And
I was just. Yeah. And so it comforted me. It was
like this. This word from God that I really needed
at that time in my life.
>> Loren (27:35):
Uh-huh. Yeah. Again, again, like, this feels much
like the. The episode with Heather Thompson Day in
her book. Like, because it's like, I think we have
this sometimes a assumption that we can, like,
frustrate or ruin God's plan and purpose. Like,
which is. Which is kind of, like, super backwards
(27:57):
if we think about, like, that humans could, like,
frustrate God's attempts or God actions to, like,
bring about wholeness and healing in the world.
Like, surely God has plans, Right? Like, God has
backup plans on backup plans. Right?
>> Angela (28:11):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:12):
So, I mean, it's a helpful reminder.
>> Angela (28:16):
Absolutely. Um, and I think, too. I don't. I can't
remember If I tell this story in the book, Loren,
maybe you'll be able to tell me whether I do or
not. You know how it like, you like, tell so many
stories, you live so many stories, and then you're
like, did I write that down? I don't know. Um, but
I was sitting in class. Um, I was, I'm still a
(28:38):
professor. I was, I taught just like an hour and a
half ago. I love teaching so much. Um, but I was
sitting in class a few years ago and, um, the
class was, um, called Jesus and the Meaning of
Life. And on this particular day, we were thinking
about death and dying. And, um, the class, like,
(29:00):
looked at all these different aspects of life, um,
in this particular day happened to be death and
dying. And then we do the, almost the whole class.
And then one of my students, um, she raises her
hand and she says, um, on this day, on this day
when I was in high school. So she's a college
student now, right? So she says, on this day when
I was in high school, my dad died by suicide.
>> Loren (29:22):
Wow.
>> Angela (29:23):
And she said, after my dad died, um, I went on
this, like, search for religion because I grew up
in a secular household. I grew up in a household
where we didn't really feel like we needed
religion. And then all of a sudden when my dad
died, I was like desperate for it. And so I, like,
I, I sought out this, you know, I learned all
(29:43):
about this religion and this and this and this.
But like, Christianity was the most compelling
religion to me. I was so compelled by the life and
teachings of Jesus. And then she, she said, um,
she started to cry like I am, but she said, did,
did God need my dad to die by suicide for me to
(30:05):
find religion, like, to find God, like. And I just
felt the spirit say to me in that moment as a
professor, like, ask them, ask them. And so I,
like, looked at all my students and we're all
sitting in a circle. That's how we did this class,
all 20 of us. And I said, what do you say? What do
(30:28):
you think? And for a question like this, it felt
brave to like, let other people respond. Um, and I
waited for like two, three minutes. It was like a
long pause. And I was just like, felt the spirit
there, like, Angela, just wait. Just wait. And
then one of my students, he said, he called her by
(30:49):
her name. Uh, and then he said, God has always
loved you. God has always been seeking you. Mhm.
God has always wanted you to know God. But maybe
it was just in this moment after your dad's death
that you could see it.
>> Loren (31:08):
Wow.
>> Angela (31:11):
And it was after this in class that I was able to
listen to the passage in Romans where it says,
like, you know, all things work together for good.
>> Loren (31:21):
Yeah.
>> Angela (31:22):
I had always hated that scripture, Loren, because
I was like, how is this good? You know? But I
started to see it differently where it's like this
thing and that thing and this horrible thing and
that really, really messed up thing and this thing
that broke my heart and this way that I went, that
was wrong or whatever. All this somehow
(31:45):
miraculously goes toward the good of God. I don't
know how, but God's ultimate good, everything gets
caught up in it.
>> Loren (31:54):
I feel like we need to give that just a moment to
sit itself. Thank you for sharing that.
I do want to talk also, and I feel like this feels
so, so light compared to the profound story you
just shared. But I feel like it's, it's helpful to
(32:14):
think about and I suppose it's related. You talk
about choosing acute pain versus a dull ache.
>> Angela (32:23):
Yeah.
>> Loren (32:23):
On 131 you say sometimes we are also choosing
between a dull ache that we have learned to live
with and a gut wrenching pain that seems
unbearable. Most of us prefer chronic pain over
acute pain. And again, I don't want to speak for
you here, but, um, I'm thinking, for instance, the
acute pain you're talking about is not like that
story. Like we're not choosing suffering for
(32:44):
ourselves, we're not choosing heartbreak. Like,
let me frame it this way and you can tell me if
I'm on track here. Like, uh, a year ago, over a
year ago, I realized I was in a job. Like, I
really didn't like, and I didn't really see a
future for myself and didn't really feel like it
jive with what I want for my, for my life and my
(33:06):
future, my family, all that. So like, I kind of
was like, do I just kind of keep grinding along
this kind of like chronic pain of like being low
key, miserable and unhappy and grumpy at home
because I have to go to work this job I don't
like, blah blah. Or to kind of take this acute
(33:27):
pain of like making sort of a jump and leap of
faith of like, oh, this is super scary. So, yeah.
Does that track with what you're trying to get
across here?
>> Angela (33:38):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I just. This is,
um, the reality for a lot of us is that, I mean,
in general, many of us will, in making a decision,
choose pain. You know, it doesn't. I mean, some of
(34:01):
us are choosing between two good Things. And if
that's you today, amazing. Like, and my book,
hopefully, you know, and like, and hopefully my
book helps people that are also choosing between
two. Two really good things or multiple good
things. But oftentimes, at some point in our adult
lives, we are choosing between two really hard
(34:21):
things, you know, and. But one of my friends,
Michaela, you know, she pointed this out to me one
day. Like, you're choosing between acute pain and
chronic pain. And sometimes. And so, yeah, it's
like the chronic pain, you know, being you knew
how to be at your workplace, you knew how to deal
with like, you're like, it's Monday morning again.
(34:42):
I know how to get through Monday. I know how to,
you know, I know how this goes. And so it's a pain
you've learned to live with, a pain you've learned
to manage. It doesn't mean you enjoy it, but that
familiarity, there's almost a comfort there. Like,
I know what I'm doing when we're ripping the band
aid off, so to speak, and we're choosing this
(35:05):
other hard thing that we don't know what kind of
pain is going to bring us or the acuteness of it
sometimes is like all of a sudden I had these
colleagues and I don't anymore.
>> Loren (35:16):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (35:17):
I knew where I was going on Monday morning. Now I
don't anymore. Someone else was paying my
healthcare or my retirement, someone else isn't.
Or I chose this other job. And you know, and even
though it's different, like, there's still like,
there's this, um, like this lack of familiarity
that's really hard for me or whatever it is. You
know, and the same thing happens in relationships,
(35:40):
like when, you know, like, I shouldn't be in a
relationship with this family member anymore or
this friend or this romantic partner and you make
that decision. Like if it's been a lot of chronic
pain, like if you have had this relationship,
you've known this family member your whole life,
but you realize, like, this is a really unhealthy
relationship for me. Like this is causing really
(36:02):
low self worth. This person is damaging my sense
of self. We're constantly arguing, whatever it is.
>> Loren (36:08):
Mhm.
>> Angela (36:10):
But that's like familiar. It feels like home. To
then break off that relationship with that person.
It's like, oh, you know, it's. It's a new kind of
pain that you have to learn to deal with.
>> Loren (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is a podcast that we aim to speak to
pastors and church leaders. So I kind of want to
make one, I suppose comment or section to someone
who's in that position, if only because I think
these things we're talking about still really
(36:43):
matter, uh, and are very applicable in many parts
of American Christianity. It seems like there's
two just bad choices for churches and leaders.
It's a tough situation for many. Churches are
struggling economically, financially. There's no
clear future ahead. And I know because I felt this
(37:06):
in my own times in professional ministry where it
feels like what you're putting out there just
being wasted. So I kind of want to tie this to one
of the things you talk about in your book of
nothing being wasted in God's economy. Because
I've preached that. I preached, uh, at a church
closing that had been around for 150 years and I
(37:28):
preached like nothing is ever wasted in God's
economy or something to that effect. Right. And
like I preached at my own church closing like a
few years ago. And like, I didn't, first of all, I
didn't say it. Second of all, I wouldn't have
believed it in the moment. You know, like, it's so
much harder when you're in that context inside
versus outside. So I mean, I think again, a
(37:51):
profound point you made. What else do you have to
share there and what thoughts do you have for
those who have been or are in a ministry setting?
>> Angela (38:01):
First of all, if you're listening and this is you,
and you're making really difficult decisions for a
team of people that are impacting an organization,
you're making difficult decisions that are
disrupting. Like you're having to let people go.
Mhm. Your budget is shrinking, your building needs
(38:22):
to be sold, whatever it is. Or like you feel like
no matter which way you're turning, that there's
just been pain left and right. That no matter like
what you preach, what you say, what you do, it's
not enough for people. It's not reaching people.
>> Loren (38:39):
Right.
>> Angela (38:40):
You know, whatever it is like that every decision
is not growing. Um, yeah, I just, I feel, I feel
like so first of all, I just want to say, like I
lament with you. Like I have just, I have been
there in a variety of ways in my own life and work
(39:02):
where it just feels like this thing like felt so
senseless, so ridiculous, so hard, so
irredeemable, you know? Um, but what I, what I
meant by that is, and I want to be like so careful
here.
>> Loren (39:20):
Mhm.
>> Angela (39:22):
You know, I don't think that God like causes
suffering in people's life. I don't think that God
is like, let me give you this, so that, like, this
really hard thing so that you can cultivate
strength or resilience. Like, I really. That's
just not. Not how I can relate to God. It's not
how I make sense of, um, my theology, of my
(39:44):
understanding of God. Um, and at the same thing,
at the same time, I just want to say, like, I
think that anything that we offer to God, anything
that's a part of an offering, like, any part of
our life can get caught up in that great story and
be. And be moved toward the good. Like that. I
(40:07):
just. That's what I mean by that is, um, my friend
Willie Jennings. He's a professor at Yale. He says
we can make our pain productive without glorifying
or justifying suffering.
>> Loren (40:20):
Ah, yeah. Yeah.
>> Angela (40:22):
And I think that that's where this is, like,
adjacent to that is, like, everything that
happens, like, you know, can be moved toward the
good. Everything that happens, we can use, with
God's help, um, to do something meaningful in the
world. Um, and that even if something ends, even
(40:45):
if something breaks, even if something, you know,
like that it was. It doesn't mean it wasn't ever
meant to be. It doesn't mean that it was nothing.
It doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been. You
know what I mean?
>> Loren (40:58):
Like, yeah, yeah.
>> Angela (41:01):
That sometimes if, like, things end really poor,
poorly, we're just like, oh, that should never
have been. And I. I think we don't want to write
it all off.
>> Loren (41:11):
Yeah, Yeah. I think 100%, I would agree. Like, I
think there is this tendency. I don't know if it's
American culture or white American culture or what
it is, but I do think there's that tendency. Like,
if it was. If it was great, but it didn't end
well, it's like, well, we shouldn't have done it
at all.
>> Angela (41:29):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:29):
Um, and I appreciate your point about that being
two different things.
I do want to ask. I think this is coming to mind.
Like, I just posted something on Substack at the
time of this recording. Basically, like, I'm sure
you. You probably get this sense too, like,
America, we're probably going to go through some
(41:52):
tar. We've been going through some challenging
times, and we'll probably still have more
challenging times in front of us where there's
going to be a lot of, like, difficult decisions to
be made that are not going to feel good in the
moment. Like what? Like, thinking about it from
the context of this book, like, I assume to some
extent you're on the other side, if only because
(42:12):
you had the context and where we'll write the book
and write it down and observe. Like, hey, I'm
somewhat through this. Like what? You know, you
talked about prayer and meditation sustaining you.
Like, what kind of would you help or offer to
people to like, latch onto as a thought of hope?
(42:33):
If that makes sense.
>> Angela (42:35):
You mean like during this particular moment in
American history?
>> Loren (42:39):
I mean, you could answer that however you feel,
whether it's personally or whether it's
societally. Like thinking about just being in
tough times, having been through it yourself. What
does the other side look like?
>> Angela (43:02):
I think one of the things is that healing is
possible. Um, and that you won't always feel the
way that you do. Um, and so, and I don't mean like
healing in the way of forgetting or healing and
(43:23):
you know, healing in the way of like, oh, that
thing, when I think of it, doesn't like make me
sad ever again.
>> Loren (43:29):
Right.
>> Angela (43:30):
But I just mean that like my sister Steph, whose
son is the one that died, Mason Steph says, you
know, once you have a death like this in your
life, like, you always carry a grief backpack.
Like, you just like, are always wearing that
backpack everywhere you go. And I really agree
with her. But the thing is, is like, you do learn
(43:51):
to move through life with it and you carry it
differently in different seasons of your life.
>> Loren (43:57):
Mhm.
>> Angela (43:58):
And so if you're in this like season of just like
your heart is totally broken and you're just
having a hard time getting out of bed every day,
like there is a day that comes when you feel like,
oh my goodness, like I've gotten on the road
toward healing. Like, I'm starting to feel joy
again. Like joy is creeping in and I'm giving
(44:19):
myself over to it, as Mary Oliver would say. And
like, I can't really help it where the light's
coming in. I'm noticing the goodness of others, of
God, of my life in this small way, like again, you
know. And so I do think that, um. Yeah, that you,
you'll carry it differently over time. Um, and
(44:43):
that the light does eventually come back in.
>> Loren (44:46):
Yeah, that's good. That's good.
Well, I want to keep talking about this, but also
like, I want to respect your time and also want to
respect like just your emotional, uh, and my own
emotional kind of like limits here. So I really
appreciate you sharing for listeners. The book is
braving, ah, difficult what to do when you don't
(45:08):
know what to do. We didn't even talk about this. I
feel like you talked about the importance here of
like, Making kind of values which we didn't even
talk about, which is. Again. Right. Something that
I'd highly recommend. It was helpful for me just
to kind of, like. Because if, uh, I feel like when
you're kind of in that real, like, stuck point,
it's like, I don't even know what to do, then you
(45:29):
can have those kind of list of values, like, this
is what really matters to me, and I'm not being
overwhelmed by my feelings in the moment, and
blah, blah, blah. But again, braiding difficult
decisions. What to do when you don't know what to
do. Highly recommend it. Go check it out.
Uh, let's take a quick break, and we'll come back
with some closing questions. All right, we're back
(45:51):
with Dr. Angela. Reverend. Doctor. I want to give
you your full titles there. Reverend, Dr. Angela
Williams Girrell. Thank you so much for your time.
Really appreciate your honesty and forthrightness
in our conversation. So, closing questions.
Hopefully, they'll be a little lighter than our
past here conversation.
>> Angela (46:09):
We'll see.
>> Loren (46:12):
If you're pope for a day, what might that day look
like for you?
>> Angela (46:17):
Yeah, my friend Liz, um, says that I live in the
deep end of life, Loren. So I don't. Yeah. I don't
know how to do small talk. Um, the thing is, is
that the first thing when I saw this question,
when I was looking over your. Your questions for
today, and I was like, well, I couldn't be Pope
because I'm a woman. Um, and so I guess if I got
(46:38):
the ability, if I was Pope for a day, I'd want to
highlight what women throughout history have done
for the church.
>> Loren (46:44):
Okay. Yeah.
>> Angela (46:46):
And be like, hello. Why don't we have any women
that could be Pope?
>> Loren (46:50):
But, yeah, I'm writing that down. That's good. I
like that. Yeah. See, I. I appreciate your not
getting stuck on that. Some people, like, get
stuck on the mechanics of that. Like, so thank
you. Thank you for that.
>> Angela (47:07):
And I highlight a few of them in my book.
Perpetua, Dorothy Day, Dolores Huerta, and on and
on. But.
>> Loren (47:16):
Okay.
Well, that leads well into our next question of a
theologian or historical Christian figure you
might want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Angela (47:24):
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Anyone in my book that is
not still living, I would want to meet, because
they're all just sheroes and heroes to me. But I
actually, you know, I think my spiritual hero is
Howard Thurman. Um, it's been said that the
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Had two things
(47:45):
on him at all times. A copy of the Bible and a
copy of Howard Thurman's Jesus and the
Disinherited. Um, so, I mean, he was an incredible
mentor and spiritual guide to the Reverend Dr.
King. But also, it was just so many. And I would
love to sit with Howard Thurman and have dinner
(48:05):
with him. I love meditations on the heart as well,
like an incredible little devotional book. So, um,
yeah, just a well of wisdom.
>> Loren (48:15):
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
Okay. I suppose here with your more. You know,
living from a more what? How do you say it?
Serious, or your friends say it from a more
serious place?
>> Angela (48:26):
Oh, I live in the deep end of life.
>> Loren (48:27):
In the deep end. Yeah. What do you think history
will remember for our current time and place? I
guess I should put some parentheses. This is.
These are meant to be quick hitters, so don't go
too deep.
>> Angela (48:37):
Yeah. Um. Yeah, sadly, I feel like we're going to
remember the division that I don't. I don't know
that there. There's never been a point in my own
adult, like, in my life on this planet that I've
ever seen each side, like, villainize the other as
much as we do. The lack of, like, respect and
(48:59):
diplomacy for the other side. Um, and so just a
really huge rift between Republicans and
Democrats. I think we will remember that.
>> Loren (49:09):
Yeah. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Angela (49:15):
I forgot about this one, Loren. Um, everything.
No, I'm just kidding. Um, I mean, I think my
greatest hope would be that the great story that
you, you know, you quoted, like, everything.
Everyone belongs. Everyone, you know, like, I. I
(49:37):
just hope that that, like, becomes more famous.
Like, the way that we talk about the gospel as
this, like, expansive love.
>> Loren (49:47):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (49:47):
I feel like we've sort of lost, like. I don't know
that that's, like, the first thing that comes out
of people's mouths or, you know, comes to people's
imaginations when they think of Christian. I don't
know that God's expansive love is the thing that
comes to people's mind that are not Christians,
and I wish it were so. Yeah.
>> Loren (50:05):
Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, where can people connect
with you? Find out more about you. Copy the book,
all that stuff.
>> Angela (50:14):
Yeah. You can buy Braving difficult decisions
wherever books are sold. All kinds of, like, cool
M. Independent stores, too, like, bookshop and
everything. Um, and then. And you could also just
go to your local bookstore, and if you ask them to
order a book for you, they will. And so if you
want to support a local store, you can, too. I
love to connect with people on Facebook,
(50:36):
Instagram, like or through my website where you
can, um, if you, if you email me through my
website, on any page, there's a thing at the
bottom, I will respond to you. So DM me, message
me. I'd love to hear from you.
>> Loren (50:50):
Yeah, yeah. Cool. Cool. Well, again, I really
appreciate your time, really appreciate the
conversation and your book. Like I really
recommend to others. So thank you again. We, uh,
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (51:11):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes.
>> Angela (51:23):
Visit.
>> Loren Richmond (51:23):
Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD
to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
to more people.
>> Loren (51:39):
Thanks.
>> Loren Richmond (51:40):
And go in pen.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
Reverend Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell Dr. Angela is
a speaker, author, and consultant. She has taught
at several schools, including Yale and Baylor
University. Media sources such as the New York
Times, NPR, and the Washington Post have
(01:08):
highlighted her research. Dr. Angela is the author
of Always on the Gravity of Joy and a new book,
Braving Difficult what to do when you don't know
what to do. A reminder before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
(01:28):
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (01:57):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am
pleased to be welcoming today. Reverend Dr. Angela
Williams Gorell. Hello and thank you for being
here.
>> Angela (02:08):
Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Looking
forward to our conversation.
>> Loren (02:13):
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I want to say
this from the top. A lot of times. I shouldn't say
a lot of times, but oftentimes folks that I'll
have on the podcast don't know, necessarily relate
to, like, the ethos or the. The overall themes of
the podcast, but just interesting authors like I
want to talk to. And this is certainly one of
those instances. So I'm hoping it can be relevant
(02:35):
to our listeners. So if you're listening, stay
tuned because this is a. Angela, uh, is a great
book, and I certainly found it helpful, and I hope
it's helpful for our listeners, too.
But before we get into that, anything else you
want to say about yourself? Um, what part of the
world do you find yourself in today?
>> Angela (02:53):
Oh, um, I really appreciate, first of all, your
generous words about my book. Um, I definitely,
you know, when you put something out in the world,
um, you do it well. For me, I did it from a really
vulnerable place of Trying in my own life to
figure some stuff out. And then, um, you're like,
okay. Along the way, a lot of these other people
gave me wisdom, and I'm gonna pass it on. So thank
(03:17):
you so much for your words about that.
I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I am home
today. Not on the road. Um, as I get older, I love
to travel, but also, like, not too much. I'm like,
I love to travel, to speak. I feel really honored
and excited whenever people come, you know, ask me
to. But I also love to be home. And so, especially
(03:39):
in the fall, Santa Fe is a gorgeous little
mountain town. And so it's not hot right now. It's
not freezing. It's just like the most perfect fall
day. I'm really, really grateful for it.
>> Loren (03:53):
Well, thank you. Thanks for sharing that.
Share, if you would, kind of about your
background, your faith journey, what that looked
like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Angela (04:01):
I was raised in the church. Um, I definitely. I
was one of those babies whose parents were, like,
taking me to church the first Sunday after I was
born kind of thing. You know, something that most
parents in a post Covid, or we still have Covid,
but, you know, like, right after a pandemic, we
just can't really imagine it. But my parents.
(04:23):
Parents took me to church and, like, passed me
around to everyone the first Sunday after I was
born. So I was born into a really deeply
Christian, spiritual family. Um, and for me,
growing up, uh, for a number of reasons, it was
not easy to be the child that I was. Um, just I
had a really difficult speech impediment. I was
born deaf, like all these other things we could go
(04:46):
into. But, um, had a hard childhood. Just felt
really disconnected from others in a number of
ways. Um, and then my family, you know, had some
difficulties. And so for me, the church
especially, I started to notice in middle school,
was a sanctuary. For me, it was this place I could
go. It was a safe haven where people mentored me
(05:06):
and helped me and I think really saw me and helped
me to feel seen by God. And so for me, a lot of my
spirituality has been, um, sort of, I think,
grounded in those sentiments and experiences that
I had where I was like, I want to give this away
to other young people. I really saw this in my
(05:29):
own, um. Like, I felt this in my spirit in high
school and in college. Like, I want to go into
ministry so that I can create or help to nurture,
um, a sanctuary, safe havens, and other young
people's lives. I, um, want Them to feel seen by
God, heard by God. I want them to feel like God
cares and for them and loves them and that they
(05:51):
can live in community with other people. Um, and
so that was like the trajectory of my faith and my
life. And then about, um, let's see, almost a
decade ago, um, had a really difficult series of
events in my family where I had three family
members die in four weeks. In really tragic way.
(06:14):
Yeah, in really tragic ways. Um, and at the same
time I was working at Yale University, I was a
researcher, there was a. And I was teaching a
class called Life Worth Living. And I really felt
in my own spirit, like the collision of all these
things. And it really challenged my sense of who
(06:36):
is God? Um, when the world is suffering, where is
God? Um, I really dove deep into this time in my
life where I feel like God went silent. So for all
my life I felt like until this point a decade ago,
I felt like God sees us, God hears us, God loves
us. And then all of a sudden God was silent and I
(06:57):
was like, test it was. It tested sort of every
fundamental thing that I believed about God. And
so in the last decade, I've had to, um, I've had
to answer some big questions around faith myself.
I've had to, um, not. So what I found myself like
(07:18):
leading this class, Life worth living. And one of
the big questions we ask in this class is how
should we respond to suffering? If my life
involves suffering and pain, can my life still be
good? And so I found myself not only leading the
life worth living journey, but also asking and
answering these big questions for myself. And what
(07:40):
I've really, I think, come to like be at peace
with in the last few years is that there are
seasons of faith. And every few years or so, just
like there are seasons of every aspect of our
life, we have to kind of recommit to things. We
have to re examine our values, re examine our
(08:01):
beliefs, re examine our practices and uh, reflect.
And sometimes we edit those, delete those, um, we
add to those, you know, and that's been. So that's
been kind of the period of life that I've been in.
>> Loren (08:17):
Yeah, this is really good stuff already.
I'm thinking. I want to ask this about, like you
mentioned, like the evaluation of practices. I'm
curious if there's any you're willing to share
that maybe something you've had to edit or adjust
as a practice, maybe take on or drop off. Mhm. For
this season of Life.
>> Angela (08:36):
Yeah. I think one of the things that I've had to
um, well, I'm really grateful I had a spiritual
director, um, while I was getting my PhD that
really walked me through a number of, like,
different practices that I could become open to
right before all this tragedy struck in my family.
And, um. And by the way, like this, like. So my
(08:57):
family members died by suicide by opioid
addiction, and my nephew died at 22 of a heart
condition, like, really suddenly. So each. Each
death was not just, like, in rapid succession, but
it was the nature of the deaths that really, like,
pushed against a lot of my, like, the way that I
saw God, saw the world, saw, you know, human
(09:19):
beings, all this stuff. Um, so one of the things
that, um, my spiritual director, when I called her
and I told her about what had happened, and so I
moved away. I used to see her regularly when I
lived in Los Angeles, was getting my PhD. I moved
to Connecticut to work at Yale. And I called her a
number of months, like, about three months after
everything happened. And we met up when I was on
(09:41):
spring break. I went and saw her, and she said,
um. She said, you know, yeah, come see me. Come
see me. And. And we were sitting together, and she
was like, angela, silence is the language of God,
or M. It's one of the languages of God.
>> Loren (09:58):
Right.
>> Angela (09:58):
And I. So it helped me to re. Unders. Like, I
really began to understand the story of Elijah
when he's on the mountain and he's waiting for God
to pass by. Yeah, I started to understand that
story in a very, like, in my own way and in a very
personal, close way. Okay, God's not in the fire.
God's not in the earthquake. You know, God is not
(10:18):
in the whirlwind. And sometimes God is. It wasn't
until I really examined the story that I realized,
oh, wait, there are times in the Bible when God is
in all of these things. But for Elijah and in my
own life, like, God was in the silence. And if. If
I could look for it, listen for it in new ways in
my life. And so, um, meditation became a really
(10:41):
consistent practice in my life that became really
important for me. And so, um, it's. To this day,
over the last few years, I've had to learn a lot
about. About it in order to act. I mean, I've
just. Well, I've had to just practice it. Like,
meditation is not something that you can think
(11:02):
your way through.
>> Loren (11:03):
Yeah.
>> Angela (11:04):
Like, when I say learn about it, I just mean that
I had to, like, watch other people do it. I had to
do an app with it. You know, I had to start with
guided meditation and this and that. But, um,
about a year ago, I joined an online meditation
group and that helped me to practice it even more.
To sit with other people in silence for 20
minutes, um, just became a really powerful way of
(11:29):
like, uh, a few different things. One, in
meditation, you recognize when a thought comes to
you, but then you can imagine putting it into a
little boat and letting it float down the river
away from you. And it doesn't mean it's not
important. It doesn't mean it's not actually a
thing. You know, it just means I'm going to let
this go right now. I'm going to release this right
now. And so that's become, yeah, a way of
(11:52):
listening to God for me. That's been new and
different, but also really healing for me.
>> Loren (11:58):
Yeah, such good stuff here. And I'm looking
forward to talking more about how the book and all
this connects. I want to start with.
So angel is the author of Braving Difficult
Decisions, what to do when youn Don't Know what to
Do. And um. Oh, I'm laughing at that subtitle.
Because this book kind of came to me when I was a
(12:20):
similar context in life where I didn't know what
to do. And I want to start with this. I'm trying
to find the quote here. You write about two ways
of going through life. Um, oops, I'm in the wrong
book. Keep going. Uh, two ways of going through
life. Cher, if you would talk about those two
different ways of going through life.
>> Angela (12:45):
So you can go through life trying to manipulate
everything, fix everything, define everything,
figure out everything, manage everything. I mean,
that's one way to go through life. Just grasping
at control, ultimately at try. If I just. If I
(13:06):
could just do. And you can fill in the blank for
yourself. If I could just get this much more time,
if I could just do this with my money, if I could
just get this much more power or uh, recognition.
If I could just get this person to love me
differently. If I could just get this promotion,
write that book, be that much more powerful,
(13:29):
important. I would love my life better. Like I
would like life more. I would, you know, and so
it's just, it's a, it's an A, uh, One way of
moving through life is to grasp for control
consistently and then the other way. And so you
can picture this if you're listening, and I'm so
(13:49):
glad you're here, if you're listening with us, we
know that you, your time is so precious. And so if
you're cooking or walking or strolling somewhere
or driving. You're listening to us. You could
imagine just walking through life just like, with
your fingertips, trying to grasp at things, or
holding on tightly with your fists closed. Like,
(14:11):
that's one way of moving through life. Another
way, the other way is the invitation, I think of
the Christian faith, which is an invitation to
surrender.
>> Loren (14:21):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (14:21):
It's released. It's letting go. It is saying, God,
I cannot. I don't have control over my finances,
other people. I have no power over my external
environment, like, but, God, you are the one to
whom everything belongs. And so I release it all
(14:43):
to you. I offer it, I make it an offering to you.
And even it's a way. Surrender also looks like
acceptance. M. It looks like I don't like the way
that this is right now, but it is the way that it
is. I accept my circumstances as they are. And
this way of moving through life, a way of, like,
(15:03):
powerlessness, of recognizing that, of surrender,
of offering, is something. I think it's a way of
inviting God in, because God has room and can move
when we live with open hands or in surrender.
>> Loren (15:19):
Yeah, I want to read these words from your book
because they strike me as so similar to, uh, my co
host, Martha Tutornick, has a book, why Gather?
And in the book, she talks about ultra realism. I
think as a practice she's done during her marathon
training. Uh, but you have these quotations. At
this moment, my life is like this. I wish this had
(15:45):
different timing, but this is what it is. Like, I
am laughing through gritted teeth, Angela, here. I
do not like this, but it is what it is right now.
Like, I've had to say these things or very much
similar things to myself in the not too distant
past. And it was helpful for me. And I, uh,
(16:05):
frankly, I frankly, still say things like this to
myself when I think about, like, I have a
tendency. Like, we all do, I imagine. But for me,
I know I have a tendency to, like, compare myself
to other people and other situations and contexts
and careers and situations in life. And I'm like,
you know what? I've chose this. And I probably
shouldn't frame this quite so negatively. But for
(16:27):
me, it's a helpful reminder. Like, I am where I am
because my choices have consequences. So I
appreciate that, um, acceptance of framing reality
as it is. Like, again, these seem, like, harsh,
and maybe I'm making it, um, too harsh. And I'm
(16:52):
wondering. I think some might think, like, oh, we
should be more positive or optimistic or hopeful.
And I certainly don't think you'd be like that.
But what is it really valuable, this kind of stark
realism?
>> Angela (17:04):
Because anything other than acceptance, I think,
looks like resistance. It looks, um, it looks like
resentment, worry, fear, anger. And I. And there's
(17:25):
righteous anger, but I just mean the kind that,
like, eats you from the inside out.
>> Loren (17:29):
Yeah.
>> Angela (17:31):
So I feel like the alternative is to live in
yesterday, uh, and to live in a really negative
perception of yesterday. Or it's to live in a
really, um, unhelpful tomorrow and unhelp, like, a
sort of idolized tomorrow instead of right now.
(17:55):
And I think that there's an invitation by so many
spiritual guides throughout history and that live
today, like, into the now, into the present. Like,
this is my life as it is. So even if I don't like
it, God help me to accept that this is the reality
of my life right now. And then if I can look at
(18:18):
the reality of my life really clearly right now,
m. With those open hands, with surrender, then I
think God can then say, okay, this is the next
right step. You know, Then that's where our prayer
becomes. So it's like, I accept that this is the
reality. Because for so many people, like, yet to
(18:39):
not live in the present and not accept the reality
as it is is either. Like. Like I said, they're
denying their reality. They're living in some
alternative reality, which is so not helpful to
them and probably really unhelpful to the people
around them. Um, you know, they're ignoring the
state of things, so they're not able to, like,
(19:00):
move forward. They're gonna be paralyzed, you
know, or they're living in what could have been if
I had just done A, B, or C. If I had not. If I had
avoided. Right. And then you're just living with
this regret and resentment.
>> Loren (19:15):
Frustration.
>> Angela (19:17):
Yeah. That just, like, weighs you down.
>> Loren (19:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
I want to read this. You write about prayer. This
full quote here. Because I. Again, I think it's so
good you write. People often think prayer is what
happens before or after something, but the prayer
is also a something. It's an action that draws
attention. It's an action that draws attention,
moves us, connects us, can be felt by others,
(19:42):
centers, calms, nurtures, teaches, guides. It is
doing something meaningful even when we aren't
entirely aware of what is happening. The same is
true of surrender.
>> Angela (19:56):
Um, it's always so interesting to hear your words
right back to you. Um, but, yeah, I feel like that
that's something that I've learned in my own
spiritual life, you know, is that when I pray,
it's not just, you know, because like pray is. We
can think of it sometimes as like the first way of
going through life. If I could just manipulate God
(20:17):
enough, if I could, you know, just control God
enough, or my circumstance, if I could just
manifest this with my brain, like then this will
happen the way I want it to, but instead I feel
like prayer in my own study and experience of it.
Um, and like I said, a number of spiritual guides
who've taught me over the years, through their
(20:37):
books, through their TED talks, through their
podcasts, like, whatever, through their preaching
is like, no, prayer doesn't. It shifts me in
alignment with God. Like, prayer is literally like
aligning my will with God's. If I pray God, I want
to see, like, you see, I want my heart to break
for the things that break your heart. I want to
(20:58):
long for what you want me to long for. I want to
be in relationship with my circumstances in the
ways that you want me to. Um, you know, and so,
yeah, and then prayer is that calming. It can be
that shift, like God, release me from the bondage
of fear, of worry, of resentment, of regret, and
then instill in me humility and truth and love.
(21:21):
Whatever you need God to put into your spirit,
like we can be praying for those things, you know.
>> Loren (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's really good.
Something that also stood out to me was you talk
about the importance of understanding feelings as
information, but not as stopping points.
>> Angela (21:38):
Mhm.
>> Loren (21:38):
Talk about that. The importance of making that
distinction.
>> Angela (21:43):
Yeah. So I'm not somebody who says like, feelings
don't matter or, you know, feelings are, um,
always. I think some people feel like, feel, um,
like that feelings are always like there to like,
take you astray and like, don't give in to them,
you know, um, or whatever. But feelings are
information in the sense that they do signal
(22:04):
something. So feelings start as motions, energy
and motion in our body. And then we tell ourselves
the story of what has happened. And that story of
what has happened has really good data or
information for us, for us to attend to. Okay, so
I had an experience with this person, in this
(22:25):
place, with these people. I told myself this
thing. And so then we can say, okay, what's true
there? Is there something I need to be paying
attention to? Like, is there a reason why I need,
you know, that I'm, I'm noticing that I'm angry?
Is there a reason why I'm nervous? Or, um, is
there a reason that I need to fear? Like, is there
(22:45):
something like, you know, so I think that God can
speak to us through Our feelings, like, the way
that we make sense of our experiences and that God
gave us feelings for a reason, you know, And I
point out this in the book, that in the life of
Jesus, we see feelings like anger, we see him get
(23:06):
really upset, we see him weeping. And so they're
like, to, to express emotions is to be incredibly
human. You know, it's a very human, important
thing. But then I don't think we want to just sit
in difficult feelings. Especially. We don't want
to just live angry, live depressed, lived in, live
(23:27):
in gloom, live fearful. No, like, we want to use
this information. We want to work through our
feelings constructively and then, you know, figure
out the right next step.
>> Loren (23:38):
Yeah, I think that's so important because, like, I
see the opposite sometimes where it's like, my
feelings are facts, my feelings are gospel. And,
like, and I appreciate your point you're making
of, like, what is, what can I learn from my
feelings? What are they teaching me rather than me
just staying in them?
I want to move on to this idea that I think is
(24:01):
very profound and also, I think sometimes hard to
accept. I was thinking about, I'm not sure if
you're familiar with Heather Thompson Day. I had
her on podcast, like, three years ago, and she
wrote, I think, this book, like, when it's not
your turn. And basically, if I remember correctly,
it was basically like, how to similar kind of book
(24:25):
to what you wrote, like, how to deal with life
when things don't seem to be going your way. And,
like, I feel like she had a very similar theme of,
like, trusting that we're part of God's bigger
story. And again, I want to just read this quote
here because I, I, it was profound to me. You
write, you and me were also part of a great story
being told. And I like that you capitalize the G
(24:48):
and the S and great story. We participate in this
story. This is a story that M mysteriously says,
God loves everything and made it all good.
Everyone belongs, and it's all being restored. And
resurrection, not death, always, always gets the
last word. I mean, I read your book, so, uh, you
(25:11):
know, I have some sense that you've been through
some challenging stuff. Like, I read this, I'm
getting emotional myself here. I read this at a
challenging time in my own life. So those words,
like, stuck out to me big time. And I had to,
like, kind of trust, like, God's not through with
me yet. God has a plan. God has a purpose. There's
(25:31):
a bigger story. Yeah, like, what was helpful for
you to kind of just Trust and lean into that.
>> Angela (25:40):
Yeah. Um, there's so many things I could say, but
first of all, Loren, thank you so much for, um,
your vulnerability in this moment and just saying,
you know, I mean, I'm so glad that we are
connecting over both of us having these times in
our life where we're like, okay, I thought I knew
who I was, or, like, I thought I had things
(26:03):
figured out, and then all of a sudden, you know,
I'm m. At this crossroads, or, uh, you know, I
don't know if I have everything figured out or I
don't know what to do. And I'm trying to seek you,
and I'm trying to hear from you. Uh, I think the
thing that I needed to hear in the journey of
writing this book and in the two big decisions
(26:25):
that I was going through a discernment period with
that really shaped this book, um, was that even if
I made a wrong turn, even if I didn't do the right
thing, it was this realization one day that, thank
God, like, my. My decisions don't. Like, God's
(26:49):
story that God is telling in the world don't hinge
on any decision that I make.
>> Loren (26:53):
Yeah. Uh, yeah.
>> Angela (26:53):
You know, and that wherever I go in this life,
whatever I do, whatever I say, like, all of us,
like, are caught up in the grace and the love of
God. That. And that story, like, covers it all,
that I still get to participate in that story, and
God's still telling that story. Like, I. You know,
and so it's like, I both feel the insignificance
(27:15):
of my decisions, which was, like, really helpful
to me. Um, but then I also feel the significance
of my life. Like, you're caught up in that story,
as is everyone else, Angela, you know, and I. And
I was just. Yeah. And so it comforted me. It was
like this. This word from God that I really needed
at that time in my life.
>> Loren (27:35):
Uh-huh. Yeah. Again, again, like, this feels much
like the. The episode with Heather Thompson Day in
her book. Like, because it's like, I think we have
this sometimes a assumption that we can, like,
frustrate or ruin God's plan and purpose. Like,
which is. Which is kind of, like, super backwards
(27:57):
if we think about, like, that humans could, like,
frustrate God's attempts or God actions to, like,
bring about wholeness and healing in the world.
Like, surely God has plans, Right? Like, God has
backup plans on backup plans. Right?
>> Angela (28:11):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:12):
So, I mean, it's a helpful reminder.
>> Angela (28:16):
Absolutely. Um, and I think, too. I don't. I can't
remember If I tell this story in the book, Loren,
maybe you'll be able to tell me whether I do or
not. You know how it like, you like, tell so many
stories, you live so many stories, and then you're
like, did I write that down? I don't know. Um, but
I was sitting in class. Um, I was, I'm still a
(28:38):
professor. I was, I taught just like an hour and a
half ago. I love teaching so much. Um, but I was
sitting in class a few years ago and, um, the
class was, um, called Jesus and the Meaning of
Life. And on this particular day, we were thinking
about death and dying. And, um, the class, like,
(29:00):
looked at all these different aspects of life, um,
in this particular day happened to be death and
dying. And then we do the, almost the whole class.
And then one of my students, um, she raises her
hand and she says, um, on this day, on this day
when I was in high school. So she's a college
student now, right? So she says, on this day when
I was in high school, my dad died by suicide.
>> Loren (29:22):
Wow.
>> Angela (29:23):
And she said, after my dad died, um, I went on
this, like, search for religion because I grew up
in a secular household. I grew up in a household
where we didn't really feel like we needed
religion. And then all of a sudden when my dad
died, I was like desperate for it. And so I, like,
I, I sought out this, you know, I learned all
(29:43):
about this religion and this and this and this.
But like, Christianity was the most compelling
religion to me. I was so compelled by the life and
teachings of Jesus. And then she, she said, um,
she started to cry like I am, but she said, did,
did God need my dad to die by suicide for me to
(30:05):
find religion, like, to find God, like. And I just
felt the spirit say to me in that moment as a
professor, like, ask them, ask them. And so I,
like, looked at all my students and we're all
sitting in a circle. That's how we did this class,
all 20 of us. And I said, what do you say? What do
(30:28):
you think? And for a question like this, it felt
brave to like, let other people respond. Um, and I
waited for like two, three minutes. It was like a
long pause. And I was just like, felt the spirit
there, like, Angela, just wait. Just wait. And
then one of my students, he said, he called her by
(30:49):
her name. Uh, and then he said, God has always
loved you. God has always been seeking you. Mhm.
God has always wanted you to know God. But maybe
it was just in this moment after your dad's death
that you could see it.
>> Loren (31:08):
Wow.
>> Angela (31:11):
And it was after this in class that I was able to
listen to the passage in Romans where it says,
like, you know, all things work together for good.
>> Loren (31:21):
Yeah.
>> Angela (31:22):
I had always hated that scripture, Loren, because
I was like, how is this good? You know? But I
started to see it differently where it's like this
thing and that thing and this horrible thing and
that really, really messed up thing and this thing
that broke my heart and this way that I went, that
was wrong or whatever. All this somehow
(31:45):
miraculously goes toward the good of God. I don't
know how, but God's ultimate good, everything gets
caught up in it.
>> Loren (31:54):
I feel like we need to give that just a moment to
sit itself. Thank you for sharing that.
I do want to talk also, and I feel like this feels
so, so light compared to the profound story you
just shared. But I feel like it's, it's helpful to
(32:14):
think about and I suppose it's related. You talk
about choosing acute pain versus a dull ache.
>> Angela (32:23):
Yeah.
>> Loren (32:23):
On 131 you say sometimes we are also choosing
between a dull ache that we have learned to live
with and a gut wrenching pain that seems
unbearable. Most of us prefer chronic pain over
acute pain. And again, I don't want to speak for
you here, but, um, I'm thinking, for instance, the
acute pain you're talking about is not like that
story. Like we're not choosing suffering for
(32:44):
ourselves, we're not choosing heartbreak. Like,
let me frame it this way and you can tell me if
I'm on track here. Like, uh, a year ago, over a
year ago, I realized I was in a job. Like, I
really didn't like, and I didn't really see a
future for myself and didn't really feel like it
jive with what I want for my, for my life and my
(33:06):
future, my family, all that. So like, I kind of
was like, do I just kind of keep grinding along
this kind of like chronic pain of like being low
key, miserable and unhappy and grumpy at home
because I have to go to work this job I don't
like, blah blah. Or to kind of take this acute
(33:27):
pain of like making sort of a jump and leap of
faith of like, oh, this is super scary. So, yeah.
Does that track with what you're trying to get
across here?
>> Angela (33:38):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I just. This is,
um, the reality for a lot of us is that, I mean,
in general, many of us will, in making a decision,
choose pain. You know, it doesn't. I mean, some of
(34:01):
us are choosing between two good Things. And if
that's you today, amazing. Like, and my book,
hopefully, you know, and like, and hopefully my
book helps people that are also choosing between
two. Two really good things or multiple good
things. But oftentimes, at some point in our adult
lives, we are choosing between two really hard
(34:21):
things, you know, and. But one of my friends,
Michaela, you know, she pointed this out to me one
day. Like, you're choosing between acute pain and
chronic pain. And sometimes. And so, yeah, it's
like the chronic pain, you know, being you knew
how to be at your workplace, you knew how to deal
with like, you're like, it's Monday morning again.
(34:42):
I know how to get through Monday. I know how to,
you know, I know how this goes. And so it's a pain
you've learned to live with, a pain you've learned
to manage. It doesn't mean you enjoy it, but that
familiarity, there's almost a comfort there. Like,
I know what I'm doing when we're ripping the band
aid off, so to speak, and we're choosing this
(35:05):
other hard thing that we don't know what kind of
pain is going to bring us or the acuteness of it
sometimes is like all of a sudden I had these
colleagues and I don't anymore.
>> Loren (35:16):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (35:17):
I knew where I was going on Monday morning. Now I
don't anymore. Someone else was paying my
healthcare or my retirement, someone else isn't.
Or I chose this other job. And you know, and even
though it's different, like, there's still like,
there's this, um, like this lack of familiarity
that's really hard for me or whatever it is. You
know, and the same thing happens in relationships,
(35:40):
like when, you know, like, I shouldn't be in a
relationship with this family member anymore or
this friend or this romantic partner and you make
that decision. Like if it's been a lot of chronic
pain, like if you have had this relationship,
you've known this family member your whole life,
but you realize, like, this is a really unhealthy
relationship for me. Like this is causing really
(36:02):
low self worth. This person is damaging my sense
of self. We're constantly arguing, whatever it is.
>> Loren (36:08):
Mhm.
>> Angela (36:10):
But that's like familiar. It feels like home. To
then break off that relationship with that person.
It's like, oh, you know, it's. It's a new kind of
pain that you have to learn to deal with.
>> Loren (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is a podcast that we aim to speak to
pastors and church leaders. So I kind of want to
make one, I suppose comment or section to someone
who's in that position, if only because I think
these things we're talking about still really
(36:43):
matter, uh, and are very applicable in many parts
of American Christianity. It seems like there's
two just bad choices for churches and leaders.
It's a tough situation for many. Churches are
struggling economically, financially. There's no
clear future ahead. And I know because I felt this
(37:06):
in my own times in professional ministry where it
feels like what you're putting out there just
being wasted. So I kind of want to tie this to one
of the things you talk about in your book of
nothing being wasted in God's economy. Because
I've preached that. I preached, uh, at a church
closing that had been around for 150 years and I
(37:28):
preached like nothing is ever wasted in God's
economy or something to that effect. Right. And
like I preached at my own church closing like a
few years ago. And like, I didn't, first of all, I
didn't say it. Second of all, I wouldn't have
believed it in the moment. You know, like, it's so
much harder when you're in that context inside
versus outside. So I mean, I think again, a
(37:51):
profound point you made. What else do you have to
share there and what thoughts do you have for
those who have been or are in a ministry setting?
>> Angela (38:01):
First of all, if you're listening and this is you,
and you're making really difficult decisions for a
team of people that are impacting an organization,
you're making difficult decisions that are
disrupting. Like you're having to let people go.
Mhm. Your budget is shrinking, your building needs
(38:22):
to be sold, whatever it is. Or like you feel like
no matter which way you're turning, that there's
just been pain left and right. That no matter like
what you preach, what you say, what you do, it's
not enough for people. It's not reaching people.
>> Loren (38:39):
Right.
>> Angela (38:40):
You know, whatever it is like that every decision
is not growing. Um, yeah, I just, I feel, I feel
like so first of all, I just want to say, like I
lament with you. Like I have just, I have been
there in a variety of ways in my own life and work
(39:02):
where it just feels like this thing like felt so
senseless, so ridiculous, so hard, so
irredeemable, you know? Um, but what I, what I
meant by that is, and I want to be like so careful
here.
>> Loren (39:20):
Mhm.
>> Angela (39:22):
You know, I don't think that God like causes
suffering in people's life. I don't think that God
is like, let me give you this, so that, like, this
really hard thing so that you can cultivate
strength or resilience. Like, I really. That's
just not. Not how I can relate to God. It's not
how I make sense of, um, my theology, of my
(39:44):
understanding of God. Um, and at the same thing,
at the same time, I just want to say, like, I
think that anything that we offer to God, anything
that's a part of an offering, like, any part of
our life can get caught up in that great story and
be. And be moved toward the good. Like that. I
(40:07):
just. That's what I mean by that is, um, my friend
Willie Jennings. He's a professor at Yale. He says
we can make our pain productive without glorifying
or justifying suffering.
>> Loren (40:20):
Ah, yeah. Yeah.
>> Angela (40:22):
And I think that that's where this is, like,
adjacent to that is, like, everything that
happens, like, you know, can be moved toward the
good. Everything that happens, we can use, with
God's help, um, to do something meaningful in the
world. Um, and that even if something ends, even
(40:45):
if something breaks, even if something, you know,
like that it was. It doesn't mean it wasn't ever
meant to be. It doesn't mean that it was nothing.
It doesn't mean that it shouldn't have been. You
know what I mean?
>> Loren (40:58):
Like, yeah, yeah.
>> Angela (41:01):
That sometimes if, like, things end really poor,
poorly, we're just like, oh, that should never
have been. And I. I think we don't want to write
it all off.
>> Loren (41:11):
Yeah, Yeah. I think 100%, I would agree. Like, I
think there is this tendency. I don't know if it's
American culture or white American culture or what
it is, but I do think there's that tendency. Like,
if it was. If it was great, but it didn't end
well, it's like, well, we shouldn't have done it
at all.
>> Angela (41:29):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:29):
Um, and I appreciate your point about that being
two different things.
I do want to ask. I think this is coming to mind.
Like, I just posted something on Substack at the
time of this recording. Basically, like, I'm sure
you. You probably get this sense too, like,
America, we're probably going to go through some
(41:52):
tar. We've been going through some challenging
times, and we'll probably still have more
challenging times in front of us where there's
going to be a lot of, like, difficult decisions to
be made that are not going to feel good in the
moment. Like what? Like, thinking about it from
the context of this book, like, I assume to some
extent you're on the other side, if only because
(42:12):
you had the context and where we'll write the book
and write it down and observe. Like, hey, I'm
somewhat through this. Like what? You know, you
talked about prayer and meditation sustaining you.
Like, what kind of would you help or offer to
people to like, latch onto as a thought of hope?
(42:33):
If that makes sense.
>> Angela (42:35):
You mean like during this particular moment in
American history?
>> Loren (42:39):
I mean, you could answer that however you feel,
whether it's personally or whether it's
societally. Like thinking about just being in
tough times, having been through it yourself. What
does the other side look like?
>> Angela (43:02):
I think one of the things is that healing is
possible. Um, and that you won't always feel the
way that you do. Um, and so, and I don't mean like
healing in the way of forgetting or healing and
(43:23):
you know, healing in the way of like, oh, that
thing, when I think of it, doesn't like make me
sad ever again.
>> Loren (43:29):
Right.
>> Angela (43:30):
But I just mean that like my sister Steph, whose
son is the one that died, Mason Steph says, you
know, once you have a death like this in your
life, like, you always carry a grief backpack.
Like, you just like, are always wearing that
backpack everywhere you go. And I really agree
with her. But the thing is, is like, you do learn
(43:51):
to move through life with it and you carry it
differently in different seasons of your life.
>> Loren (43:57):
Mhm.
>> Angela (43:58):
And so if you're in this like season of just like
your heart is totally broken and you're just
having a hard time getting out of bed every day,
like there is a day that comes when you feel like,
oh my goodness, like I've gotten on the road
toward healing. Like, I'm starting to feel joy
again. Like joy is creeping in and I'm giving
(44:19):
myself over to it, as Mary Oliver would say. And
like, I can't really help it where the light's
coming in. I'm noticing the goodness of others, of
God, of my life in this small way, like again, you
know. And so I do think that, um. Yeah, that you,
you'll carry it differently over time. Um, and
(44:43):
that the light does eventually come back in.
>> Loren (44:46):
Yeah, that's good. That's good.
Well, I want to keep talking about this, but also
like, I want to respect your time and also want to
respect like just your emotional, uh, and my own
emotional kind of like limits here. So I really
appreciate you sharing for listeners. The book is
braving, ah, difficult what to do when you don't
(45:08):
know what to do. We didn't even talk about this. I
feel like you talked about the importance here of
like, Making kind of values which we didn't even
talk about, which is. Again. Right. Something that
I'd highly recommend. It was helpful for me just
to kind of, like. Because if, uh, I feel like when
you're kind of in that real, like, stuck point,
it's like, I don't even know what to do, then you
(45:29):
can have those kind of list of values, like, this
is what really matters to me, and I'm not being
overwhelmed by my feelings in the moment, and
blah, blah, blah. But again, braiding difficult
decisions. What to do when you don't know what to
do. Highly recommend it. Go check it out.
Uh, let's take a quick break, and we'll come back
with some closing questions. All right, we're back
(45:51):
with Dr. Angela. Reverend. Doctor. I want to give
you your full titles there. Reverend, Dr. Angela
Williams Girrell. Thank you so much for your time.
Really appreciate your honesty and forthrightness
in our conversation. So, closing questions.
Hopefully, they'll be a little lighter than our
past here conversation.
>> Angela (46:09):
We'll see.
>> Loren (46:12):
If you're pope for a day, what might that day look
like for you?
>> Angela (46:17):
Yeah, my friend Liz, um, says that I live in the
deep end of life, Loren. So I don't. Yeah. I don't
know how to do small talk. Um, the thing is, is
that the first thing when I saw this question,
when I was looking over your. Your questions for
today, and I was like, well, I couldn't be Pope
because I'm a woman. Um, and so I guess if I got
(46:38):
the ability, if I was Pope for a day, I'd want to
highlight what women throughout history have done
for the church.
>> Loren (46:44):
Okay. Yeah.
>> Angela (46:46):
And be like, hello. Why don't we have any women
that could be Pope?
>> Loren (46:50):
But, yeah, I'm writing that down. That's good. I
like that. Yeah. See, I. I appreciate your not
getting stuck on that. Some people, like, get
stuck on the mechanics of that. Like, so thank
you. Thank you for that.
>> Angela (47:07):
And I highlight a few of them in my book.
Perpetua, Dorothy Day, Dolores Huerta, and on and
on. But.
>> Loren (47:16):
Okay.
Well, that leads well into our next question of a
theologian or historical Christian figure you
might want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Angela (47:24):
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Anyone in my book that is
not still living, I would want to meet, because
they're all just sheroes and heroes to me. But I
actually, you know, I think my spiritual hero is
Howard Thurman. Um, it's been said that the
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Had two things
(47:45):
on him at all times. A copy of the Bible and a
copy of Howard Thurman's Jesus and the
Disinherited. Um, so, I mean, he was an incredible
mentor and spiritual guide to the Reverend Dr.
King. But also, it was just so many. And I would
love to sit with Howard Thurman and have dinner
(48:05):
with him. I love meditations on the heart as well,
like an incredible little devotional book. So, um,
yeah, just a well of wisdom.
>> Loren (48:15):
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.
Okay. I suppose here with your more. You know,
living from a more what? How do you say it?
Serious, or your friends say it from a more
serious place?
>> Angela (48:26):
Oh, I live in the deep end of life.
>> Loren (48:27):
In the deep end. Yeah. What do you think history
will remember for our current time and place? I
guess I should put some parentheses. This is.
These are meant to be quick hitters, so don't go
too deep.
>> Angela (48:37):
Yeah. Um. Yeah, sadly, I feel like we're going to
remember the division that I don't. I don't know
that there. There's never been a point in my own
adult, like, in my life on this planet that I've
ever seen each side, like, villainize the other as
much as we do. The lack of, like, respect and
(48:59):
diplomacy for the other side. Um, and so just a
really huge rift between Republicans and
Democrats. I think we will remember that.
>> Loren (49:09):
Yeah. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Angela (49:15):
I forgot about this one, Loren. Um, everything.
No, I'm just kidding. Um, I mean, I think my
greatest hope would be that the great story that
you, you know, you quoted, like, everything.
Everyone belongs. Everyone, you know, like, I. I
(49:37):
just hope that that, like, becomes more famous.
Like, the way that we talk about the gospel as
this, like, expansive love.
>> Loren (49:47):
Uh-huh.
>> Angela (49:47):
I feel like we've sort of lost, like. I don't know
that that's, like, the first thing that comes out
of people's mouths or, you know, comes to people's
imaginations when they think of Christian. I don't
know that God's expansive love is the thing that
comes to people's mind that are not Christians,
and I wish it were so. Yeah.
>> Loren (50:05):
Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, where can people connect
with you? Find out more about you. Copy the book,
all that stuff.
>> Angela (50:14):
Yeah. You can buy Braving difficult decisions
wherever books are sold. All kinds of, like, cool
M. Independent stores, too, like, bookshop and
everything. Um, and then. And you could also just
go to your local bookstore, and if you ask them to
order a book for you, they will. And so if you
want to support a local store, you can, too. I
love to connect with people on Facebook,
(50:36):
Instagram, like or through my website where you
can, um, if you, if you email me through my
website, on any page, there's a thing at the
bottom, I will respond to you. So DM me, message
me. I'd love to hear from you.
>> Loren (50:50):
Yeah, yeah. Cool. Cool. Well, again, I really
appreciate your time, really appreciate the
conversation and your book. Like I really
recommend to others. So thank you again. We, uh,
always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (51:11):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes.
>> Angela (51:23):
Visit.
>> Loren Richmond (51:23):
Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD
to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
to more people.
>> Loren (51:39):
Thanks.
>> Loren Richmond (51:40):
And go in pen.
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