April 1, 2025 • 55 mins
What if bivocational ministry isn’t a compromise—but a key to the church’s future? Kris Bentley joins Loren Richmond Jr. to explore the evolving landscape of bivocational ministry in today’s church. Drawing on insights from her book Bivocational Ministry: Field Notes for Congregations and Ministers, Kris shares stories from over a decade of research and interviews with pastors and churches engaged in bivocational models. They unpack misconceptions around part-time and bivocational leadership, the surprising benefits of realigned congregational relationships, and how small churches can thrive with the resources they already have. Kris also offers thoughtful guidance for pastors navigating dual roles, denominations rethinking support structures, and seminaries designing education for a changing ministry future.
In this episode, you'll learn:
- Why bivocational ministry is more than a financial necessity—and may be the future of pastoral leadership
- How redefining expectations can empower lay leaders and revitalize small congregations
- The difference between part-time, bivocational, and multivocational ministry models
- Practical tools for pastors and churches navigating role clarity and boundary-setting
- How seminaries and denominations can better support pastors in flexible ministry pathways
Rev. Dr. Kristen Bentley is an ordained minister with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). She has served in congregational ministry in the central Kentucky area for more than twenty years, sometimes in the role of a bivocational pastor. Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher education administration, serving at both Midway College (now Midway University) and the University of Kentucky. Since 2014 Kris has been working at Lexington Theological Seminary (LTS), beginning when LTS was awarded a grant by Lilly Endowment Inc. as part of its Economic Challenges Facing Future Ministers (ECFFM). She was hired to direct the grant project and as part of that work, Kris initiated research at LTS regarding bivocational ministry. The research concerning bivocational ministry has been supported at LTS through grants from Lilly Endowment Inc., including both Lilly’s ECFFM Initiative and later the Thriving in Ministry Initiative. Currently, Kris also is serving as an interim minister of a Disciples of Christ congregation in Kentucky. Kris is an alum of Lexington Theological Seminary, holding a D. Min. (2020) and M.Div. degree (1997) from LTS, as well as a M.S. in Education (1981) from Indiana University, and a B.A. (1979) from the University of Kentucky. Kris and her husband, Perry, live in the Lexington area. They have four adult children and three grandchildren.
Relevant Links:
Lexington Theological Seminary: https://lextheo.edu/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kristen.p.bentley
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristen-bentley-20a60b65/
Chalice Press: https://chalicepress.com/products/bivocational-ministry-field-notes-for-congregations-and-ministers?_pos=2&_sid=0718b64df&_ss=r
Eric Hoke: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-wbbf2-1412bed
Jeffrey MacDonald: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-vu5iw-126b98d
Presenting Sponsor:
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
Kristen Bentley. Chris is an ordained
minister with the Christian Church Disciples of
Christ. She has served in congregational
ministry in the Central Kentucky area
for more than 20 years, sometimes in the
role of a bivocational pastor.
(01:06):
Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher
education administration, serving at AH
both Midway College, now Midway University,
and the University of Kentucky. Since
2014, Chris has been working at AH
Lexington Theological Seminary LTS,
beginning when LTS was awarded a grant
(01:26):
by the Lilly Endowment as part of its
economic challenges facing future
ministers. She was hired to direct
the grant project and as part of that work,
Chris initiated research at LTS
regarding bivocational ministry.
Currently, Chris also is serving as an
interim minister of a Disciples of Christ
(01:48):
congregation in Kentucky.
Chris is an alum of Lexington
Theological seminary, holding a DMin
and M. Div. Degree from LTS,
as well as an Ms. In
education from Indiana University and a
BA from the University of Kentucky.
Chris and her husband Perry, live in the
(02:10):
Lexington area. They have four adult children
and three grandchildren. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
(02:30):
email@ah
laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
questions or ideas ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:53):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
today by Chris Bentley. So, hello and thanks for being
with us on the podcast.
>> Kristen Bentley (03:04):
Well, hi Loren, I'm really glad to be here and
I appreciate the invitation for the conversation.
>> Loren (03:10):
Well, I'm looking forward to having this conversation, but before we get
into that, is there anything you want to anything else you want to say about
yourself to introduce yourself?
>> Kristen Bentley (03:19):
Well, I work at Lexington Theological
Seminary and I also serve as an interim pastor
in Kentucky. Lexington Theological Seminary is in
Kentucky and Um, for the
last 10 years I've been interviewing bivocational
ministers. So I've learned a little bit through conversations
with them.
>> Loren (03:37):
Yeah. Good. What we'll talk more about today. Share if you would,
just about your journey of faith, what that looked like in the past and what that
looks like today.
>> Kristen Bentley (03:45):
All right. Well, I grew up in the church. Um,
my family was part of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod. And they were
good churchgoing parents. Um, we moved around
several times. Um, and
uh, in uh, Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin. But
we always joined the local church
(04:05):
and it, um, was really important to me. It
was a place where I met a lot of people,
uh, always in the sanctuary, not in children's
worship. Uh, but when I got
older I started thinking
that, uh, maybe God didn't just
call men to be pastors.
So there was that kind of change, uh, for
(04:28):
me. Uh, but church was really important to
me as I grew up and uh,
the community, the local community of a congregation was
really important and still is.
>> Loren (04:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Great.
And, uh, what are some spiritual practices? Anything
you find meaningful you're willing to share.
>> Kristen Bentley (04:47):
Um, yeah, I think journaling
is one thing. I journal about what I'm thinking
about. I mean, I'm not like a daily
journalist. Mhm. Um, and I read a
lot. I read a lot of fiction, nonfiction,
um, and I think along with
scripture reading, um, prayer,
uh, and writing sermons is, you
(05:09):
know, really the writing
of journaling connects with
writing sermons and thinking about how
your faith connects with life.
>> Loren (05:20):
Yeah. Good, good. Well, uh, as you've kind of hinted
at already, the purpose of our conversation today
is to talk about Chris's book, Bi Vocational Minist
Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
Ministers. And I think you've kind of already introduced
kind of how you got into the work of this book by doing lots of
interviews over several, several years.
So maybe let's just jump right into it and I want to maybe
(05:42):
ask this first question because I think
first define bivocational ministry and
then. I know, and maybe our listeners may or may not
be familiar, but there's also some other terminology.
So just so we can be clear on what we're talking about and different terminology.
Why don't you just define all that by what you mean by
bivocational and then other term terminologies that are sometimes
used interchangeably.
>> Kristen Bentley (06:04):
Sure. I mean, I think that was, that's important to do.
A lot of people don't really understand when you say the
word bivocational what are you talking about?
>> Loren (06:12):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (06:13):
Um, so the definition that,
um, I'm Using now
is that a person is a
bivocational minister. If they lead a path, they
lead some kind of pastoral ministry in a
congregation. So they're, they're recognized by that
congregation as a pastor, a minister, but
they also have paid employment
(06:35):
outside that congregation.
Um, a lot of people think that
it just means a pastor that has two jobs.
But I think it's really key that
a lot of people who I would consider
bivocational, they don't just have one job
outside of the church. They may have
(06:57):
multiple, um, uh, employers. So
it's not really counting how many employers you have.
A lot of bivocational ministers are not
actually paid by their congregations.
So their outside employment is
like their primary employment and
it allows them to fulfill their call as a
(07:17):
pastor, um, in a congregation.
Um, okay. You asked about some of the other terms
people use. Some people use the term
tent, making a
nod to the Apostle Paul.
Um, and that really
focuses on that biblical model that in
the earliest days of the church
(07:40):
people would work for pay
and then serve as church leaders without
paying. Sometimes, sometimes they were paid, I
guess. Um, other terms are
like, that are being used now
multivocational, co,
vocational, trans vocational.
Um, because I think some people might be uncomfortable
(08:02):
with the buy vocational as
if it is talking about just two jobs. And I think our
sense of vocation is pretty complex and
diverse. So you know, I think we have several different
terms out there that are describing some of the
same things. Some people use the term part time
ministry too. Um, and I try to
distinguish in my mind and in the book that
(08:25):
while many bivocational ministers might be
considered part time by their congregation, the
thing that distinguishes a bivocational minister
from a part time minister is that other employment.
>> Loren (08:37):
Yeah.
>> Kristen Bentley (08:39):
I know in my own life I was what I would call a part time
minister for a while. I didn't have another
job, um, outside the church, but I did have
a different source of income. Hm. But it was
through my spouse. So, um, I think
there's a lot of diversity in the experience.
>> Loren (08:55):
Yeah. Yeah, good. That's helpful to share that.
So let's jump into this. And in the book,
which I think this is interesting, you talk about three
reasons why churches and pastors pursue this
model. So talk through those three reasons if you
can.
>> Kristen Bentley (09:10):
Okay. Yeah, I think there are tons
of reasons people become bivocation ministries.
Right. But I kind of made, I,
I began to see kind of three
narratives that I heard in
conversations about bivocational ministry.
Some, some congregations, uh,
(09:31):
and ministers end up in
bivocational ministry and they See it as kind of a,
uh, they call it,
uh, a
sign of the times or a sign of decline. Like they used
to be a bigger church or maybe the
pastor can't find a full
time position somewhere. So they kind of think of it
(09:52):
as, you know, things are declining, so we
have to turn to bivocational ministry.
Um, but then there's also a
whole bunch of people who see it more as the
cutting edge of the future where they say, well,
things are changing, we want to start a
new church or our church is transforming and
(10:12):
we want to be more connected with the community. So they
turn to it for that. You know, they're more optimistic and more
hopeful about bi vocational ministry.
And then there's this huge group that
just says, well, we've always done our ministry
that way. As long as I can remember, we've
had a pastor who
had a, uh, paid job outside the
(10:34):
congregation. So those are kind of the three kind of
general categories I identified.
>> Loren (10:40):
Yeah, yeah. So I think
one of those reasons you, you laid out
basically decline and really
like a bad trend is really
seems to be at least of, in some
contexts like the biggest narrative, biggest definer when we
think about this bi vocational
ministry, if we stay on that term.
(11:03):
Now, uh, one of the things that again I really thought was interesting in the
book, and certainly you're not the first to say this, but I think this is
important work here and important to emphasize
is you talk about how bi vocational
ministry can be good for the church and you talk about how it can
realign relationships. So do you want to talk through this idea of
being good for the church and realigning relationships?
>> Kristen Bentley (11:24):
Yeah, I mean if we think about
big church, you know, the church universal.
>> Loren (11:30):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (11:31):
I think it can be, it is
good for the church because it
allows the church to flourish. Whether you're
thinking of, uh, the diverse fields of
ministry around the world and around our
continent. Um, so it
allows churches and
congregations who are
(11:53):
maybe have fewer resources or
they're in a less populated area, so their church
is smaller. It's a model that
allows them to
be financially stable and
sustainable so they pay their
pastor less.
Um, but.
(12:16):
And that's happening all over. It's
happening all over the world. It's been happening for a long time.
Um, the other question you said.
Oh, realigning relationships. Uh,
yeah, yeah. I think
what I see and hear from
people is that when a congregation
(12:37):
and both the lay people I talked to and
ministers said this, it wasn't just the
pastors saying this is that when a
pastor has Employment outside
side of the congregation.
There is kind of one, they have less
time. So opportunity opens up for other
(12:57):
people to do things that maybe a full time
pastor would have done if, or if they used
to be there. But also
it reduces the tendency of a
congregation to think of their pastor as their
employed.
>> Loren (13:12):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (13:12):
Hired hand, you know, uh,
who's supposed to be doing what they want to do because they have this
other source of income. They're not dependent upon
the congregation for their entire livelihood. So it
just kind of realigns that
m for good. And you
know, some of the motives may be kind of
hard for congregations, but if
(13:34):
they've had somebody that was full
time working for them at least 40 hours a week.
Um, so that's how I say it, realigns.
Uh, and I think that is really good for the church.
Um, it's good because
it, um,
reintroduces or renews
that sense that the congregation's
(13:56):
ministry isn't all about what the pastor
does. It's about what that whole community is
doing together, led by the pastor,
equipped by the pastor. And I think that's
really good. I think that's good for the church.
>> Loren (14:11):
Um, and I think what's interesting
is speaking of realignment, you talk about this
mindset shift which you're already kind of hinting at
from a, you know, we have a pastor
who, or excuse me, I'm saying it
backwards, this idea of we don't have a
pastor, we don't have someone full time, we don't have
this, and instead shifting that mindset
(14:33):
towards what we do have. So talk more about
that mindset shift and what that might look
like.
>> Kristen Bentley (14:39):
Right. I think that's really important for congregations
who are, um, either moving
into the bivocational model or have used it
for some time. Because
there's a tendency to compare for
congregations to compare themselves with what others might be
doing. And instead
(14:59):
of looking at the unique gifts and resources they
have and. Right. I think about that in
terms of the pastor, but also other resources. Because
some congregations turn to bivocational ministry
because they can't really pay a
pastor enough to
say, oh, I don't need another source of
income. And I think that
(15:21):
whenever you look at what you have,
rather than worry about what you don't have or what you need
or say, well, God will give us this so we
can do it. Instead, look at what, what do you
already have? What has God already given you
and how can you use that? Um, how can
you rearrange things or tinker with things
(15:42):
so that you're really using the gifts you have. Because
we. Every congregation has
multiple gifts in the people they have,
the relationships in the community, the gospel
message there. If they have a building,
um, their location, they have. They
really have a lot, um, that they could
use or tweak a little bit to use.
>> Loren (16:07):
Right, right. I think those are good points.
I want to shift this a little bit from the
congregation's perspective to the
pastor's perspective, because
you offer two questions that are
important that a pastor working
bivocationally might either
explicitly or, uh, implicitly ask.
(16:29):
So I'm trying to find the first one here, something to the
effect of what do you expect? And you can finish this
sentence if I'm leaving it off, what do you expect from me? And
then conversely, the second question,
how necessary is it for the pastor to do that? Now, again,
I imagine that second question could be a
pastoral question or also a congregational led
(16:49):
question. But talk through those, uh, those two
questions.
>> Kristen Bentley (16:54):
Okay, great. I got those two
questions from a book by Mark Eddington
called Bivocational Returning to the
Roots of Ministry. And he
was telling about his experience when he was
pastoring and also working
in, I think, the publishing industry.
(17:14):
And I thought he had a really good point
that I heard from the
interviews as well, is that sometimes bivocational
ministers struggle
with people expecting them to do
things that they really don't have the time to
do. Um, and so
those two questions, the question, and I think he framed
(17:36):
it as an activity that he and the congregation did
together when he first started working there,
is what do you expect the minister to
do? And so you
would make this list. I. I actually
created a list and included it as an appendix
for congregations to use. Um,
(17:58):
and. And there's way too many things on there.
Um, but. And then the second question
is, how necessary is it for the minister to do
that? So to first help a
congregation, and maybe the pastor themselves needs
to explore that too. What, what expectations do I put
upon myself? What do I think I'm supposed to
(18:18):
be doing? And then going
through those expectations a second
time and thinking about, well, what
is really needed? And, you know, that can
be different in different settings because
congregations may have some things that are really
important to them. And,
(18:38):
uh, so that. Clarifying
what you expect a minister to do, what a minister
expects. And some people bring
those. Maybe they've been in a church,
uh, they've grown up in a church, they've been there for 40
years. And so what over time they've
done is they've developed these expectations that they're
(18:58):
sometimes not even aware of. But then when they see
somebody not doing it, suddenly they say,
well, wow, you know, why isn't
the minister doing this? Um, and
I think that's really important for bivocational,
uh, congregations with
bivocational ministers to do to make sure that
(19:19):
you are being good to your
pastor, not expecting them to do more
than either they are being paid to do,
uh, or that they can do that they have the
energy to, to do. And
then you begin thinking about, well,
why do we ask the pastor to do that? You know, they don't really
(19:40):
need to be the person that shovels the walk
after a snowfall. They don't really need to be
the person there to receive the
UPS delivery. Um,
and then there are others that are a little bit less obvious
than that.
>> Loren (19:56):
So this leads me to a question that I'm just, just
coming to mind right now as I'm thinking about our
conversation. When I'm thinking
about having this type of conversation with a
congregation, both, you know, as a pastoral leader
and then, you know, again with the congregation or
the leadership team of the congregation, these two
questions, you know, what do you expect from
(20:18):
me? I'm, uh, thinking how I might as
a, you know, lead as a pastor,
what do you expect from me? And how necessary for it is
it for the pastor to do these things? I'm wondering, in
your conversations, did you get a sense or did you get
any kind of direct feedback around
whether these conversations are easier, like
(20:39):
from transitioning, like a pastoral
leader transitioning from full time to
bivocational or someone coming in
fresh as, uh, you
know, rather than shifting downward,
so to speak, in their hours, starting in fresh. Because I can
imagine, like if you, if you've been in a congregation a
while and the congregation is used to you preaching
(21:01):
every Sunday and doing hospital visits and so
on and so forth, it could be really hard to
shift those expectations downward.
Whereas if someone's coming in fresh and,
uh, they don't necessarily know them. Obviously
a congregation might have some expectations
built up of what we expect from the pastor, but there's not
(21:22):
necessarily like this built in, like, oh,
Johnny does those things versus,
you know, this new person.
So do you have any
anecdotes about that? Any thoughts?
>> Kristen Bentley (21:36):
Yeah, um, well, one, I think,
uh, when you were first asking about
this just now, I was thinking
it, it is a hard conversation. I
think if a pastor comes in and says, what do you
expect of me?
>> Loren (21:51):
Yeah.
>> Kristen Bentley (21:52):
So, I mean, I think it is good when you can do
those conversations and it's not personalized
but yeah, I do have some great things I
learned in conversations because
one of the pastors I interviewed, I call
her Reverend sue, and she
became Bivocational after serving in a
(22:13):
congregation as their full time
person, uh, without another,
uh, employment for, I think it was seven
years. About seven years. And
so she had those
conversations as she helped the
congregation start thinking about, okay,
we need to change our model of
(22:35):
ministry to be more
affordable and sustainable. And so all
the time when she's comparing, when they're saying,
where they're exploring that,
um, the full time minister
she's comparing herself to is herself
what she did for seven years when she didn't have
her extra employment
(22:57):
and her other employment is full time.
And so that was an interesting
one where the congregation actually
made the move to Bivocational while they kept the same
pastor. Another, um,
story is of a minister who
had been a pastor in
full time settings in several places
(23:21):
after that experience. He dropped out of ministry
because he was exhausted.
And then after a couple years
off, uh, the regional
minister told him about a church
not far from where he lived. And he had a full time
job in the secular, I think business world
(23:42):
at that time. And they
wanted somebody to be
their pastor, but they'd had ministers with other
jobs before. And his experience when
he went in there was liberating,
he thought. And this would
definitely be where you identify
(24:02):
the relationship, uh, was realigned because
he compared his experience from being full
time where people expected him to do everything,
to coming into a congregation where they were used to
having a pastor who had other
employment. And
they, um,
(24:23):
they were more of a partnership
and he felt he could speak more prophetically
too. Um, so I'm not sure
if that, those are two that help you with
that. Um, but those were two
distinct interviews that
really showed, you know, that
realigning that those
(24:44):
expectations of a pastor is really important for
advocational ministers to have a positive
and successful relationship in
ministry.
>> Loren (24:53):
Yeah, I think that's important.
Something that's coming to mind too as we're talking
is we're
primarily talking about this through the lens of,
uh, a downshift of a congregation. And
I'm curious, I don't know, I'm curious if you have
experience, you know, obviously within, we're coming from this, the
context of the Christian church, Disciples of Christ.
(25:15):
I see this in mainline or, excuse me, not in mainline
circles, but in evangelical circles more often. I'm curious
if you've seen this in either disciples or
mainline writ large examples of
churches choosing to, whether it's the
clergy decision or the congregation
being thinking strategically in like the, like this.
(25:36):
You said about like, hey, this is the new way of doing things of
uh, saying, hey, we're going to, going to get two or three
pastors or clergy leaders and we're going to
strategically choose to, you know, to pay
them, you know, part time or to
have them bivocational so they can earn a higher income. And also
we can kind of get more diverse, uh,
talent pool, so to speak. Have you seen examples of
(25:57):
that in the Disciples Remain line?
>> Kristen Bentley (26:00):
Well, I mean, I've heard about them and um,
my. All my interviews were with people in Disciples
congregations. And you know, I haven't interviewed
everybody. There's lots of people out there
that have experience beyond what I,
uh, interviewed. But there was a pastor
I interviewed, African American woman pastor,
new, uh, church Start and what
(26:23):
they model. I'm trying to think if they're
about 8 or 10 years old now, but
as a congregation. But they do have
that model where they've kind
of created some community ministries
that are connected with their congregation.
They have a combination of paid and
(26:43):
unpaid leaders,
um, diversifying their impact
and their relationships. I think she's the
primary one. Um, back in
2013, I interviewed a woman,
another woman minister who
was also in a new church, Start.
(27:04):
Um, and they were trying to bring new
light, what they considered new light to their
community, I think. Um,
and they were just trying to be sustainable. But I do think
that, yeah, that whole idea of being cutting
edge of the future. I hope
more churches move that direction
(27:24):
in the Disciples of Christ. I haven't spoken with
as many who have done that, but I know we have a
lot of people who are exploring that area.
>> Loren (27:33):
Yeah. And like I said, I hear this more often
in evangelical spaces where whether it's a new
church start or
an existing church, this is the idea of like, how can
we better get ourselves integrated into the
community? Well, it's through working and
running a business or working at a business within the
community. And certainly all those
(27:55):
challenges that we've already spoke about still exist
from, you know, the questions
of how necessary is it for the pastor to do that.
What do you expect of the pastor? And uh, I think this is
really important.
I want to highlight this,
um, the importance of pastors
noticing things and not doing them
(28:16):
right.
>> Kristen Bentley (28:17):
Well, I quoted somebody there. Yeah,
Rachel, um, McDonald, who, uh, she has
a blog called My Other Job.
Um, that's an actual quote
from one of her blogs, but it was
repeated by lots of people that
part of the struggle is when you see
(28:37):
something and you have a great idea of how you would do it, or, you know,
you have the expertise, uh, but
you one, you know, it's better
for somebody else to do it.
Somebody else has the time, the
inclination, the undiscovered gift
perhaps, and that if you step in
as the pastor and do it, you keep someone
(28:59):
else from doing it. Um, and
you also overburden yourself. Um,
because we all only have limited time
and limited energy.
Uh, so I think that's
in both, that's important for us to
remember in both the pastoral sphere
(29:20):
of helping others to discover their
gifts in the congregation's shared
ministry with the ministers, but also in your
personal life, because you just have to leave room
to replenish your energy and um,
to not feel that you're indispensable,
that everything relies on you to fill every
(29:41):
gap, um, and to accomplish
everything.
>> Loren (29:46):
I want to stay on this point because I think it's so important, this
idea of good personal boundaries, both in
recognizing
and maybe I'll say it this way because I know for me, in
my ministry experiences, even when I was in full time
or close to full time contexts, it was
hard to. Hard to be
(30:08):
okay with, you know, not things being
perfect or done as you would like them to do.
Or again, do you
have an anecdote there that clergy
in these contexts have been able to kind of have
good boundaries for themselves?
>> Kristen Bentley (30:26):
Yeah. I tried to include some different
tips that ministers have shared with
me about how they
manage everything.
Um, and
I do think.
I don't remember if I included the book or
not, but I remember that, um, a
(30:48):
minister said, oh, it might be the
same Reverend sue who said that.
She is in a meeting
and they're discussing a
project or ministry,
and her impulse is to say,
yeah, I'll take care of that. But
(31:09):
instead she's able to say,
well, that's a great idea,
but somebody else, who else can step up and do
that? Um, and I know
in my own ministry, I mean, I
was so excited and supercharged after seminary
to, you know, to just go out there and take all those
great ideas that I had learned, all
(31:32):
those learnings and gleanings from seeing other
people. And you do have to step back, as
you say,
just because you might do it a certain way
that you think is better or more
perfect. You have to
step back and let things
(31:52):
happen. Not exactly the way you
want them to happen. Um,
sometimes I've been surprised by that. I think I tell
a story, uh, that I learned
from, uh, about the idea of the
Backyard bouquets,
um, where I, uh, think that
church had a very large sanctuary.
(32:15):
Uh, at one time they had purchased bouquets
every Sunday, you know, that would make the
sanctuary beautiful. But over time
they had replaced them with plastic,
uh, bouquets that they rotated for, you
know, different seasons. And the
pastor one spring just invited people to bring
some from their own, uh,
(32:38):
backyards, front yards, whatever. And that,
that kind of unleashed this
sense in the congregation that, yeah, we can do new
things, uh, we have resources right
there and we don't have to
feel that because we can't buy
those fancy bouquets anymore from a
florist, that we can't have a place of
(33:01):
beauty, um, in which we
worship. And I actually think that's an
improvement over buying the big bouquets.
Um, this idea that
we uh, we have
resources that are undiscovered and that
as a pastor we don't have to organize it, we can just step
(33:21):
back, issue the invitation and
then watch things come forth.
They may not come forth. I'm not saying it's a
guarantee for success, but
that we need to allow that to happen. And
sometimes we're very reluctant because we think
as ministers that we know the
(33:41):
better way. Um, but there's
actually many better good ways. Maybe not better
ways, but there's actually many good ways.
>> Loren (33:50):
So let's.
I want to shift this conversation before we're done here
to explore two areas that
I can't remember if you cover, well, somewhat explicitly in
your book, but then again from your context in a seminary. I
also want to explore the questions of kind of
structural, denominational, theological
education type questions around bivocational
(34:11):
ministry. So I'll ask this in two parts
and we can explore each part individually, but
I want to make sure I get the questions out there. So the first I'm thinking
about is how denominations can
better support bivocational pastors. Because I'm thinking
like for me, as someone who
often on does
(34:31):
ministry and certainly is trying to retain my
standing within the denomination for
non mainline listeners, you may not understand that,
but
working full time 9 to 5, Monday through Friday,
it's hard for me to make meetings. And again,
thinking from bi vocational perspective, it's going to be hard
(34:51):
for someone who's bivocational working another job to necessarily
make meetings Monday through Friday,
but conversely like also mainline or full
time clergy. And I get this, like hate Saturday meetings
because they're like, hey, we want our weekends. Like we're
supposed to be taking a Sabbath here and if you're having us come in on
Saturdays, that is hard. So that's a
(35:12):
one challenge I want to talk through. And then B
is like the latter part is
taking on a full seminary education
debt. Four years seems
increasingly difficult and expensive and
not financially the most
wise investment, we might say, thinking
about not being able to get a return on that investment
(35:34):
again purely from a fiscal
perspective. So those are two big questions. And you're
welcome to take those one at a time.
>> Kristen Bentley (35:43):
Yeah. And help me remember both of them.
>> Loren (35:45):
Well, just the example for one of
denomination. How denominations can better
support bivocational pastors
thinking contextually of
structurally.
>> Kristen Bentley (35:58):
Right. And that is a big question, I think
because for a long
time denominations have
nurtured the idea that success
is by getting bigger,
um, maybe even holding up this idea that
every church should strive for having
a fully funded,
(36:20):
professionally ordained,
uh, pastor. And so over
time denominations have kind of built
a support structure for that. I refer to this as a
trellis. Kind of in the book is, you
know, you have this idea
of what success should look like
(36:40):
and well meaning, I mean
you're not doing this usually in a
dubious way. I don't think you just, that's what you think success
is. So you build that trellis to support
that kind of ministry. So I think the
big important thing for denominations to do
is to begin to, for leaders to really begin
(37:01):
to ask those crucial questions of
where in our system are we supporting
things in a manner that is
privileging full time ministers,
privileging the big churches because they're the
minority. They're, they're not the
majority of our congregations out there.
(37:21):
And those questions need to be
wide ranging. I think
when you um, mention when
do clergy get together? Of course I, um, know
I'm currently serving as a bivocational,
uh, interim minister and our
district meetings happen to be on the one
day that I'm at the church each week. So that
(37:44):
has worked out well.
>> Loren (37:45):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (37:45):
I can do it, but often it doesn't
work out well. And you're right,
nobody who works Monday through
Friday in a congregation and then on Sunday,
hopefully with a day off, um, wants to get
together for a church meeting on Saturdays.
And actually lots of bi vocational ministers don't want to get
(38:06):
together on meetings on Saturdays either. Some of them work on
Saturdays. Um, so I think
asking questions of how do we manage
just allowing more
room for diversity, make sure we're not
always setting things up so they're most
convenient with the people who work 40 hours
(38:26):
a week for either the denomination or a
congregation that needs to look at things
like you know, how do we structure our
retirement.
>> Loren (38:35):
Yes.
>> Kristen Bentley (38:36):
Systems. Um, how do we structure search
and call?
Um, who gets a
voice in making decisions? I
mean, are our assemblies and gatherings set up so that
mostly the smaller pastors or the
pastors who are bi vocational can't afford
to attend or can't afford to vote? What, uh, about
(38:58):
our resources? You know, do our resources that we
provide for congregations
assume you've got a big group there?
>> Loren (39:06):
Mhm.
>> Kristen Bentley (39:07):
Or are they set up so that they can be
done with smaller groups and then the
larger congregations can add on? It's
much easier for them to add on to something
than for a smaller congregation to subtract
from whatever is set up. Um,
so I think that just
(39:27):
opening up some serious reflection
and questioning because all our different
denominations and traditions are so different
that to say, oh, everybody needs to do this, that's just not going to
work. We've got to figure out what works
in our context. We've got to lean
into loving those small churches and those bi
(39:47):
vocational pastors. So we set up things,
uh, that work for them, work for
us.
>> Loren (39:54):
Yeah. I should say, and I will give a shout out
to our, our retirement
fund, uh, for Chris and I both within the Christian
church. I'm making assumptions that you're within this retirement
fund. The
pension fund of the Christian church, I think is really making good
steps to try to address this challenge of
bivocational ministry. So shout out to
(40:16):
them to the pension fund.
>> Kristen Bentley (40:18):
Right. I think our denomination is
doing a lot to listen to these things
and to open them up.
>> Loren (40:26):
Yeah.
So let's explore the other half of that question, that
big question of thinking about theological education.
Seminary.
>> Kristen Bentley (40:34):
Yeah. And I mean, I first started
working at Lexington Theological Seminary at
a time when they were really paying attention to a lot
of this. Um, uh,
so you're right.
If somebody spends three to four
years getting a Master's
(40:55):
of Divinity and have
accrued debt, maybe on top of their
undergraduate school debt, and then they
look down the road at what they're going to make
in terms of a pastor, whether they work
just for a church or they're bivocational. It's really a
tough, tough thing to do. We
looked at, uh, so I think a lot of
(41:17):
theological schools now are looking at that.
Um, they're offering more flexible, uh,
um, ways for people to engage
in their studies. Um, I know we have a lot of our
coursework is offered online with
asynchronous, which means, you know, you can work on your
schoolwork without everybody else being
(41:38):
in the same room. Even the same zoom room,
um, or conference call room however you have it set
up. Um, and then also
I think a lot of theological schools are looking at
alternatives to the Master of Divinity.
Yeah, um, I know. Ah, again we
have a couple different certificate
(41:59):
programs where people can begin into a
certificate program, they can complete that and
then if they want to continue into the M. Div. They
can, um, and also flexible
payment plans. I mean, do we have
to always pay for a whole tuition, I mean
a whole semester or term at a time
or can we pay for course by
(42:21):
course, can we have monthly
payment plans for students? Things um,
like that. I know those are things that come to mind because we've
done some of those things at uh.
Lts I think actually we've done all those things.
Uh, but I know when I was working on the economic
challenges grant that Lily funded,
um, in their initiative a few years
(42:43):
ago, those were things that a lot of schools
were looking at. And so I do hope that the
landscape for those entering
into theological uh,
education can have more of those opportunities to free
them up from debt and to open
doorways into ministry.
>> Loren (43:02):
Yeah, I think that's so important. Like, I'm just thinking about
even. Not even like
uh, the finances, but I'm thinking like committing
four years, especially
in a career path. Taking aside four
years, if you're going to be bivocational, that's going
to negatively impact your own.
(43:23):
Outside the church, career growth can really be
difficult. And I'm thinking about models,
new learning models like Coursera that
are, like you said, asynchronous, kind of go at your
own pace, have different
pace. Structures are
really, are really growing.
I think for good reason and I suppose this will
(43:45):
be our last question maybe before we take a break, but do you think. I
know in our tradition, the Christian church, Disciples of
Christ, ordination has largely been
conditioned or conditional, I should
say, on getting an M. Div. A Master Divinity.
Do you think? I mean what do we uh. I don't even remember. Do
we have like, we have like a license or what is even the
(44:06):
terminology anymore? Do we need to make more space
for that?
>> Kristen Bentley (44:10):
Yeah, we did make more space.
We re. Examined the
uh. I've forgotten the names
of it, but we examined the
paths to uh, ordination a few
years ago and there are
ministers who,
um, a growing number of
ministers who are becoming ordained without
(44:33):
having gone to seminary. Ah,
that like you're describing the four year M. Div.
Program, um, there are also
ah, ways of looking at prior experience
now, um, but
we're really talking about the Ordination process. Right. Not
theological education, but, uh, um, within
(44:53):
the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, we
have opened up the path to
ordination. The other kind of
minister we have in many places is the
commission minister, right?
>> Loren (45:06):
That's right.
>> Kristen Bentley (45:06):
I think that terminology replaced what we used to call the
licensed minister. But anybody who's
a commission minister and many
bivocational ministers are commissioned
ministers. They,
um, are getting
theological education,
leadership training, not just through
(45:27):
seminaries. They're going maybe through a region,
may offer a lay
school or, um, a school for
ministry. And they
look at these different areas, and the
group
that has conversations
with people as they're pursuing ordination,
(45:50):
the Committee on Ministry, they look
at these different areas outside of
just getting an M. Div. So you still have to do education.
You have to show you're serious.
Um, it's not that
those degrees are
obstacles as much as
(46:12):
they are ways to help an
individual person explore.
How will I do ministry? Well,
yeah. What are the things I need to learn,
Relearn, um,
unlearn, uh, to become
the best minister I can be and
to lead a congregation where I eventually
(46:34):
serve or when I'm already
serving. Some of them are already serving when they're going through
this process.
>> Loren (46:41):
Well, and I think this is the other side of this conversation that is
so difficult because,
I mean, I think, uh, uh, an example of this is
in the SBC in the Southern Baptist Church, who,
if I remember correctly, historically has, like, the lowest
percentage of clergy with
education.
(47:01):
And certainly I don't want to just throw the SPC under the bus
alone because we've seen this example throughout the Christian
tradition of abuse and
impropriety and especially sexual
abuse. But I think that
is why mainline traditions have
held up such a high expectation and standard
for clergy and for ministry is to try to prevent
(47:24):
and keep any schmuck from getting
in there. So it's a
complex conversation and, uh, we, uh, should leave it
there just for the sake of time. Um, but I
wanted again recommend the book is BI
Vocational Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
Ministers.
Uh, Chris talks a lot about the stuff in we've
(47:46):
talked about already, as well as some helpful
appendixes and resources that could be
really useful for churches and pastors
who are thinking about or going through this
conversation, uh, as we speak. So, uh,
let's take a quick break. We'll come back with some closing questions.
All right, we're back with Chris Bentley. So thank you for the
(48:09):
conversation. Appreciate your time. I think these are
important topics, and I'm glad, Glad, uh, to have it
with you. So let's go through these closing questions
again. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously
or not as you'd like to, but, uh,
if you're Pope for a day, any thoughts on
that day?
>> Kristen Bentley (48:27):
Well, yeah, that was kind of. I realized if I were
Pope for a day, we'd be in a different world because I'm a
woman. Um, but I was thinking that if
I had the power of the Pope and the
authority and the voice of the Pope, I think I would
really do whatever was in my power to
encourage and equip congregations
to have a deep conversation about shared
(48:49):
ministry.
>> Loren (48:50):
Yes.
>> Kristen Bentley (48:51):
About this thing of how do we go
about having ministry where
one person or one group of people aren't
lording it over the others as, you know, where we
can be in ministry together and really
fulfilling our individual and congregational
calls.
>> Loren (49:10):
That's very on theme. So that's a good answer. I suppose
a theologian or historical Christian
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Kristen Bentley (49:20):
Well, there's a whole posse of them out there. But I
was thinking a couple years ago, I went
to the Underground Railroad
National Historical, um, Park
and M. I would love to meet Harriet
Tubman.
I. I think she is a theologian
(49:41):
in her own way. She didn't write much.
Um, I wish I could remember the quote. They have a
church fan for sale in one of the
sites we went on. The Byway. The Harriet Tubman
Byway, where you visited all the sites in
Maryland. I just thought she was the
example of a person who
took. Who contextualized
(50:03):
her Bible learnings from her mother,
which obviously she
deeply respected the book of Exodus and
its message of liberation.
But then she actually put her life on the
line and gave it her all. I mean, freeing people
through the Underground Railroad. So I would love to
meet her and just tap in a little bit more
(50:26):
to that courage and strength that she had.
>> Loren (50:30):
Yeah, great, great.
Um, what do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Kristen Bentley (50:37):
Oh, if we're talking about the United States of
America.
>> Loren (50:41):
Yeah. I leave it purposely ambiguous.
>> Kristen Bentley (50:45):
Um, I think, sadly,
this time will be thought of as a time of
division. Um, I think people are
very divided, and I think also
where there are a lot of lonely people,
um, because of this division, I think we've
diminished some of our capacity to have good
(51:05):
conversations and fruitful
conversations.
Um, so that is
something I think history will remember
from current time and place if we're talking about just the culture
at large in our nation.
>> Loren (51:20):
Well, I was just listening to a podcast from Simon Sinek
last night he was interviewing the Surgeon General.
They were talking about loneliness. Uh, and,
uh, it's funny, the surgeon General made a point
about having people over even if your house is a mess,
because they won't remember the mess. They'll remember the people,
the conversation. And I'm somewhat skeptical of that, but
(51:41):
I suppose I can appreciate the intention, maybe both.
>> Kristen Bentley (51:43):
Maybe they'll remember the people in the mess.
>> Loren (51:45):
But, yeah, uh, what
are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> Kristen Bentley (51:51):
Oh, man, I do have a lot of hopes
for the future of Christianity. As we
realign relationships, I think it's inevitable
that, um, as we see
more and more that,
uh, it's important for local
congregations to find their own call.
I mean, that's my hope, is that local
(52:13):
congregations will find that real
sense, whether, no matter how small they are,
um, or how large, but that
they'll really move into that space where they can
be a, uh, source of
light, of energy
for their community. Um,
and where we can have those
(52:36):
kind of conversations like we're talking about where people can bring their
real selves and where they can be
better places, stronger places,
where the Christian faith is
formed among believers. You know, that we
can. That is my hope. I think it's going to
happen. Um, I just think we're going through
a rough patch of trying to sort and
(52:58):
figure out how to get there.
>> Loren (53:00):
Yeah, that's a good point. I appreciate that.
Uh, well, you mentioned you don't necessarily
have a strong social media presence, and I think that's okay.
But, uh, where else can people find out more about you,
connect with you, the book, all
that?
>> Kristen Bentley (53:15):
Right. Well, the book is published through Chalice Press, so it's
available on the Chalice Press website. Website, and,
you know, those other big places like Amazon and stuff
like that. Um, I work for Lexington
Theological Seminary. It's in Kentucky, and
we have a website, Lex Theo. Um,
and, um, I, I do have a
(53:35):
LinkedIn page. I just don't check
things very often, but I do check them so
people could reach me through those things. I,
I think the book, uh, you know, I'm eager for
people to, to get the book and
use it, to use
it to learn more about. Through those stories
(53:55):
I've got in it about many different ministers.
But, yeah, I don't have a huge social media
presence. Maybe I need to do something about it.
>> Loren (54:03):
Well, it's good and bad.
That's okay. Well, again, I appreciate your time.
I thank you for the conversation and I hope that the book
is, uh, helpful for many folks out there.
So uh, we always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Kristen Bentley (54:20):
And also with you. Thank you very much. Lauren.
>> Loren (54:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
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(54:50):
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this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
Kristen Bentley. Chris is an ordained
minister with the Christian Church Disciples of
Christ. She has served in congregational
ministry in the Central Kentucky area
for more than 20 years, sometimes in the
role of a bivocational pastor.
(01:06):
Prior to attending seminary, she worked in higher
education administration, serving at AH
both Midway College, now Midway University,
and the University of Kentucky. Since
2014, Chris has been working at AH
Lexington Theological Seminary LTS,
beginning when LTS was awarded a grant
(01:26):
by the Lilly Endowment as part of its
economic challenges facing future
ministers. She was hired to direct
the grant project and as part of that work,
Chris initiated research at LTS
regarding bivocational ministry.
Currently, Chris also is serving as an
interim minister of a Disciples of Christ
(01:48):
congregation in Kentucky.
Chris is an alum of Lexington
Theological seminary, holding a DMin
and M. Div. Degree from LTS,
as well as an Ms. In
education from Indiana University and a
BA from the University of Kentucky.
Chris and her husband Perry, live in the
(02:10):
Lexington area. They have four adult children
and three grandchildren. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
(02:30):
email@ah
laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments,
questions or ideas ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:53):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
today by Chris Bentley. So, hello and thanks for being
with us on the podcast.
>> Kristen Bentley (03:04):
Well, hi Loren, I'm really glad to be here and
I appreciate the invitation for the conversation.
>> Loren (03:10):
Well, I'm looking forward to having this conversation, but before we get
into that, is there anything you want to anything else you want to say about
yourself to introduce yourself?
>> Kristen Bentley (03:19):
Well, I work at Lexington Theological
Seminary and I also serve as an interim pastor
in Kentucky. Lexington Theological Seminary is in
Kentucky and Um, for the
last 10 years I've been interviewing bivocational
ministers. So I've learned a little bit through conversations
with them.
>> Loren (03:37):
Yeah. Good. What we'll talk more about today. Share if you would,
just about your journey of faith, what that looked like in the past and what that
looks like today.
>> Kristen Bentley (03:45):
All right. Well, I grew up in the church. Um,
my family was part of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod. And they were
good churchgoing parents. Um, we moved around
several times. Um, and
uh, in uh, Ohio, Indiana and Wisconsin. But
we always joined the local church
(04:05):
and it, um, was really important to me. It
was a place where I met a lot of people,
uh, always in the sanctuary, not in children's
worship. Uh, but when I got
older I started thinking
that, uh, maybe God didn't just
call men to be pastors.
So there was that kind of change, uh, for
(04:28):
me. Uh, but church was really important to
me as I grew up and uh,
the community, the local community of a congregation was
really important and still is.
>> Loren (04:39):
Yeah. Yeah. Great.
And, uh, what are some spiritual practices? Anything
you find meaningful you're willing to share.
>> Kristen Bentley (04:47):
Um, yeah, I think journaling
is one thing. I journal about what I'm thinking
about. I mean, I'm not like a daily
journalist. Mhm. Um, and I read a
lot. I read a lot of fiction, nonfiction,
um, and I think along with
scripture reading, um, prayer,
uh, and writing sermons is, you
(05:09):
know, really the writing
of journaling connects with
writing sermons and thinking about how
your faith connects with life.
>> Loren (05:20):
Yeah. Good, good. Well, uh, as you've kind of hinted
at already, the purpose of our conversation today
is to talk about Chris's book, Bi Vocational Minist
Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
Ministers. And I think you've kind of already introduced
kind of how you got into the work of this book by doing lots of
interviews over several, several years.
So maybe let's just jump right into it and I want to maybe
(05:42):
ask this first question because I think
first define bivocational ministry and
then. I know, and maybe our listeners may or may not
be familiar, but there's also some other terminology.
So just so we can be clear on what we're talking about and different terminology.
Why don't you just define all that by what you mean by
bivocational and then other term terminologies that are sometimes
used interchangeably.
>> Kristen Bentley (06:04):
Sure. I mean, I think that was, that's important to do.
A lot of people don't really understand when you say the
word bivocational what are you talking about?
>> Loren (06:12):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (06:13):
Um, so the definition that,
um, I'm Using now
is that a person is a
bivocational minister. If they lead a path, they
lead some kind of pastoral ministry in a
congregation. So they're, they're recognized by that
congregation as a pastor, a minister, but
they also have paid employment
(06:35):
outside that congregation.
Um, a lot of people think that
it just means a pastor that has two jobs.
But I think it's really key that
a lot of people who I would consider
bivocational, they don't just have one job
outside of the church. They may have
(06:57):
multiple, um, uh, employers. So
it's not really counting how many employers you have.
A lot of bivocational ministers are not
actually paid by their congregations.
So their outside employment is
like their primary employment and
it allows them to fulfill their call as a
(07:17):
pastor, um, in a congregation.
Um, okay. You asked about some of the other terms
people use. Some people use the term
tent, making a
nod to the Apostle Paul.
Um, and that really
focuses on that biblical model that in
the earliest days of the church
(07:40):
people would work for pay
and then serve as church leaders without
paying. Sometimes, sometimes they were paid, I
guess. Um, other terms are
like, that are being used now
multivocational, co,
vocational, trans vocational.
Um, because I think some people might be uncomfortable
(08:02):
with the buy vocational as
if it is talking about just two jobs. And I think our
sense of vocation is pretty complex and
diverse. So you know, I think we have several different
terms out there that are describing some of the
same things. Some people use the term part time
ministry too. Um, and I try to
distinguish in my mind and in the book that
(08:25):
while many bivocational ministers might be
considered part time by their congregation, the
thing that distinguishes a bivocational minister
from a part time minister is that other employment.
>> Loren (08:37):
Yeah.
>> Kristen Bentley (08:39):
I know in my own life I was what I would call a part time
minister for a while. I didn't have another
job, um, outside the church, but I did have
a different source of income. Hm. But it was
through my spouse. So, um, I think
there's a lot of diversity in the experience.
>> Loren (08:55):
Yeah. Yeah, good. That's helpful to share that.
So let's jump into this. And in the book,
which I think this is interesting, you talk about three
reasons why churches and pastors pursue this
model. So talk through those three reasons if you
can.
>> Kristen Bentley (09:10):
Okay. Yeah, I think there are tons
of reasons people become bivocation ministries.
Right. But I kind of made, I,
I began to see kind of three
narratives that I heard in
conversations about bivocational ministry.
Some, some congregations, uh,
(09:31):
and ministers end up in
bivocational ministry and they See it as kind of a,
uh, they call it,
uh, a
sign of the times or a sign of decline. Like they used
to be a bigger church or maybe the
pastor can't find a full
time position somewhere. So they kind of think of it
(09:52):
as, you know, things are declining, so we
have to turn to bivocational ministry.
Um, but then there's also a
whole bunch of people who see it more as the
cutting edge of the future where they say, well,
things are changing, we want to start a
new church or our church is transforming and
(10:12):
we want to be more connected with the community. So they
turn to it for that. You know, they're more optimistic and more
hopeful about bi vocational ministry.
And then there's this huge group that
just says, well, we've always done our ministry
that way. As long as I can remember, we've
had a pastor who
had a, uh, paid job outside the
(10:34):
congregation. So those are kind of the three kind of
general categories I identified.
>> Loren (10:40):
Yeah, yeah. So I think
one of those reasons you, you laid out
basically decline and really
like a bad trend is really
seems to be at least of, in some
contexts like the biggest narrative, biggest definer when we
think about this bi vocational
ministry, if we stay on that term.
(11:03):
Now, uh, one of the things that again I really thought was interesting in the
book, and certainly you're not the first to say this, but I think this is
important work here and important to emphasize
is you talk about how bi vocational
ministry can be good for the church and you talk about how it can
realign relationships. So do you want to talk through this idea of
being good for the church and realigning relationships?
>> Kristen Bentley (11:24):
Yeah, I mean if we think about
big church, you know, the church universal.
>> Loren (11:30):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (11:31):
I think it can be, it is
good for the church because it
allows the church to flourish. Whether you're
thinking of, uh, the diverse fields of
ministry around the world and around our
continent. Um, so it
allows churches and
congregations who are
(11:53):
maybe have fewer resources or
they're in a less populated area, so their church
is smaller. It's a model that
allows them to
be financially stable and
sustainable so they pay their
pastor less.
Um, but.
(12:16):
And that's happening all over. It's
happening all over the world. It's been happening for a long time.
Um, the other question you said.
Oh, realigning relationships. Uh,
yeah, yeah. I think
what I see and hear from
people is that when a congregation
(12:37):
and both the lay people I talked to and
ministers said this, it wasn't just the
pastors saying this is that when a
pastor has Employment outside
side of the congregation.
There is kind of one, they have less
time. So opportunity opens up for other
(12:57):
people to do things that maybe a full time
pastor would have done if, or if they used
to be there. But also
it reduces the tendency of a
congregation to think of their pastor as their
employed.
>> Loren (13:12):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (13:12):
Hired hand, you know, uh,
who's supposed to be doing what they want to do because they have this
other source of income. They're not dependent upon
the congregation for their entire livelihood. So it
just kind of realigns that
m for good. And you
know, some of the motives may be kind of
hard for congregations, but if
(13:34):
they've had somebody that was full
time working for them at least 40 hours a week.
Um, so that's how I say it, realigns.
Uh, and I think that is really good for the church.
Um, it's good because
it, um,
reintroduces or renews
that sense that the congregation's
(13:56):
ministry isn't all about what the pastor
does. It's about what that whole community is
doing together, led by the pastor,
equipped by the pastor. And I think that's
really good. I think that's good for the church.
>> Loren (14:11):
Um, and I think what's interesting
is speaking of realignment, you talk about this
mindset shift which you're already kind of hinting at
from a, you know, we have a pastor
who, or excuse me, I'm saying it
backwards, this idea of we don't have a
pastor, we don't have someone full time, we don't have
this, and instead shifting that mindset
(14:33):
towards what we do have. So talk more about
that mindset shift and what that might look
like.
>> Kristen Bentley (14:39):
Right. I think that's really important for congregations
who are, um, either moving
into the bivocational model or have used it
for some time. Because
there's a tendency to compare for
congregations to compare themselves with what others might be
doing. And instead
(14:59):
of looking at the unique gifts and resources they
have and. Right. I think about that in
terms of the pastor, but also other resources. Because
some congregations turn to bivocational ministry
because they can't really pay a
pastor enough to
say, oh, I don't need another source of
income. And I think that
(15:21):
whenever you look at what you have,
rather than worry about what you don't have or what you need
or say, well, God will give us this so we
can do it. Instead, look at what, what do you
already have? What has God already given you
and how can you use that? Um, how can
you rearrange things or tinker with things
(15:42):
so that you're really using the gifts you have. Because
we. Every congregation has
multiple gifts in the people they have,
the relationships in the community, the gospel
message there. If they have a building,
um, their location, they have. They
really have a lot, um, that they could
use or tweak a little bit to use.
>> Loren (16:07):
Right, right. I think those are good points.
I want to shift this a little bit from the
congregation's perspective to the
pastor's perspective, because
you offer two questions that are
important that a pastor working
bivocationally might either
explicitly or, uh, implicitly ask.
(16:29):
So I'm trying to find the first one here, something to the
effect of what do you expect? And you can finish this
sentence if I'm leaving it off, what do you expect from me? And
then conversely, the second question,
how necessary is it for the pastor to do that? Now, again,
I imagine that second question could be a
pastoral question or also a congregational led
(16:49):
question. But talk through those, uh, those two
questions.
>> Kristen Bentley (16:54):
Okay, great. I got those two
questions from a book by Mark Eddington
called Bivocational Returning to the
Roots of Ministry. And he
was telling about his experience when he was
pastoring and also working
in, I think, the publishing industry.
(17:14):
And I thought he had a really good point
that I heard from the
interviews as well, is that sometimes bivocational
ministers struggle
with people expecting them to do
things that they really don't have the time to
do. Um, and so
those two questions, the question, and I think he framed
(17:36):
it as an activity that he and the congregation did
together when he first started working there,
is what do you expect the minister to
do? And so you
would make this list. I. I actually
created a list and included it as an appendix
for congregations to use. Um,
(17:58):
and. And there's way too many things on there.
Um, but. And then the second question
is, how necessary is it for the minister to do
that? So to first help a
congregation, and maybe the pastor themselves needs
to explore that too. What, what expectations do I put
upon myself? What do I think I'm supposed to
(18:18):
be doing? And then going
through those expectations a second
time and thinking about, well, what
is really needed? And, you know, that can
be different in different settings because
congregations may have some things that are really
important to them. And,
(18:38):
uh, so that. Clarifying
what you expect a minister to do, what a minister
expects. And some people bring
those. Maybe they've been in a church,
uh, they've grown up in a church, they've been there for 40
years. And so what over time they've
done is they've developed these expectations that they're
(18:58):
sometimes not even aware of. But then when they see
somebody not doing it, suddenly they say,
well, wow, you know, why isn't
the minister doing this? Um, and
I think that's really important for bivocational,
uh, congregations with
bivocational ministers to do to make sure that
(19:19):
you are being good to your
pastor, not expecting them to do more
than either they are being paid to do,
uh, or that they can do that they have the
energy to, to do. And
then you begin thinking about, well,
why do we ask the pastor to do that? You know, they don't really
(19:40):
need to be the person that shovels the walk
after a snowfall. They don't really need to be
the person there to receive the
UPS delivery. Um,
and then there are others that are a little bit less obvious
than that.
>> Loren (19:56):
So this leads me to a question that I'm just, just
coming to mind right now as I'm thinking about our
conversation. When I'm thinking
about having this type of conversation with a
congregation, both, you know, as a pastoral leader
and then, you know, again with the congregation or
the leadership team of the congregation, these two
questions, you know, what do you expect from
(20:18):
me? I'm, uh, thinking how I might as
a, you know, lead as a pastor,
what do you expect from me? And how necessary for it is
it for the pastor to do these things? I'm wondering, in
your conversations, did you get a sense or did you get
any kind of direct feedback around
whether these conversations are easier, like
(20:39):
from transitioning, like a pastoral
leader transitioning from full time to
bivocational or someone coming in
fresh as, uh, you
know, rather than shifting downward,
so to speak, in their hours, starting in fresh. Because I can
imagine, like if you, if you've been in a congregation a
while and the congregation is used to you preaching
(21:01):
every Sunday and doing hospital visits and so
on and so forth, it could be really hard to
shift those expectations downward.
Whereas if someone's coming in fresh and,
uh, they don't necessarily know them. Obviously
a congregation might have some expectations
built up of what we expect from the pastor, but there's not
(21:22):
necessarily like this built in, like, oh,
Johnny does those things versus,
you know, this new person.
So do you have any
anecdotes about that? Any thoughts?
>> Kristen Bentley (21:36):
Yeah, um, well, one, I think,
uh, when you were first asking about
this just now, I was thinking
it, it is a hard conversation. I
think if a pastor comes in and says, what do you
expect of me?
>> Loren (21:51):
Yeah.
>> Kristen Bentley (21:52):
So, I mean, I think it is good when you can do
those conversations and it's not personalized
but yeah, I do have some great things I
learned in conversations because
one of the pastors I interviewed, I call
her Reverend sue, and she
became Bivocational after serving in a
(22:13):
congregation as their full time
person, uh, without another,
uh, employment for, I think it was seven
years. About seven years. And
so she had those
conversations as she helped the
congregation start thinking about, okay,
we need to change our model of
(22:35):
ministry to be more
affordable and sustainable. And so all
the time when she's comparing, when they're saying,
where they're exploring that,
um, the full time minister
she's comparing herself to is herself
what she did for seven years when she didn't have
her extra employment
(22:57):
and her other employment is full time.
And so that was an interesting
one where the congregation actually
made the move to Bivocational while they kept the same
pastor. Another, um,
story is of a minister who
had been a pastor in
full time settings in several places
(23:21):
after that experience. He dropped out of ministry
because he was exhausted.
And then after a couple years
off, uh, the regional
minister told him about a church
not far from where he lived. And he had a full time
job in the secular, I think business world
(23:42):
at that time. And they
wanted somebody to be
their pastor, but they'd had ministers with other
jobs before. And his experience when
he went in there was liberating,
he thought. And this would
definitely be where you identify
(24:02):
the relationship, uh, was realigned because
he compared his experience from being full
time where people expected him to do everything,
to coming into a congregation where they were used to
having a pastor who had other
employment. And
they, um,
(24:23):
they were more of a partnership
and he felt he could speak more prophetically
too. Um, so I'm not sure
if that, those are two that help you with
that. Um, but those were two
distinct interviews that
really showed, you know, that
realigning that those
(24:44):
expectations of a pastor is really important for
advocational ministers to have a positive
and successful relationship in
ministry.
>> Loren (24:53):
Yeah, I think that's important.
Something that's coming to mind too as we're talking
is we're
primarily talking about this through the lens of,
uh, a downshift of a congregation. And
I'm curious, I don't know, I'm curious if you have
experience, you know, obviously within, we're coming from this, the
context of the Christian church, Disciples of Christ.
(25:15):
I see this in mainline or, excuse me, not in mainline
circles, but in evangelical circles more often. I'm curious
if you've seen this in either disciples or
mainline writ large examples of
churches choosing to, whether it's the
clergy decision or the congregation
being thinking strategically in like the, like this.
(25:36):
You said about like, hey, this is the new way of doing things of
uh, saying, hey, we're going to, going to get two or three
pastors or clergy leaders and we're going to
strategically choose to, you know, to pay
them, you know, part time or to
have them bivocational so they can earn a higher income. And also
we can kind of get more diverse, uh,
talent pool, so to speak. Have you seen examples of
(25:57):
that in the Disciples Remain line?
>> Kristen Bentley (26:00):
Well, I mean, I've heard about them and um,
my. All my interviews were with people in Disciples
congregations. And you know, I haven't interviewed
everybody. There's lots of people out there
that have experience beyond what I,
uh, interviewed. But there was a pastor
I interviewed, African American woman pastor,
new, uh, church Start and what
(26:23):
they model. I'm trying to think if they're
about 8 or 10 years old now, but
as a congregation. But they do have
that model where they've kind
of created some community ministries
that are connected with their congregation.
They have a combination of paid and
(26:43):
unpaid leaders,
um, diversifying their impact
and their relationships. I think she's the
primary one. Um, back in
2013, I interviewed a woman,
another woman minister who
was also in a new church, Start.
(27:04):
Um, and they were trying to bring new
light, what they considered new light to their
community, I think. Um,
and they were just trying to be sustainable. But I do think
that, yeah, that whole idea of being cutting
edge of the future. I hope
more churches move that direction
(27:24):
in the Disciples of Christ. I haven't spoken with
as many who have done that, but I know we have a
lot of people who are exploring that area.
>> Loren (27:33):
Yeah. And like I said, I hear this more often
in evangelical spaces where whether it's a new
church start or
an existing church, this is the idea of like, how can
we better get ourselves integrated into the
community? Well, it's through working and
running a business or working at a business within the
community. And certainly all those
(27:55):
challenges that we've already spoke about still exist
from, you know, the questions
of how necessary is it for the pastor to do that.
What do you expect of the pastor? And uh, I think this is
really important.
I want to highlight this,
um, the importance of pastors
noticing things and not doing them
(28:16):
right.
>> Kristen Bentley (28:17):
Well, I quoted somebody there. Yeah,
Rachel, um, McDonald, who, uh, she has
a blog called My Other Job.
Um, that's an actual quote
from one of her blogs, but it was
repeated by lots of people that
part of the struggle is when you see
(28:37):
something and you have a great idea of how you would do it, or, you know,
you have the expertise, uh, but
you one, you know, it's better
for somebody else to do it.
Somebody else has the time, the
inclination, the undiscovered gift
perhaps, and that if you step in
as the pastor and do it, you keep someone
(28:59):
else from doing it. Um, and
you also overburden yourself. Um,
because we all only have limited time
and limited energy.
Uh, so I think that's
in both, that's important for us to
remember in both the pastoral sphere
(29:20):
of helping others to discover their
gifts in the congregation's shared
ministry with the ministers, but also in your
personal life, because you just have to leave room
to replenish your energy and um,
to not feel that you're indispensable,
that everything relies on you to fill every
(29:41):
gap, um, and to accomplish
everything.
>> Loren (29:46):
I want to stay on this point because I think it's so important, this
idea of good personal boundaries, both in
recognizing
and maybe I'll say it this way because I know for me, in
my ministry experiences, even when I was in full time
or close to full time contexts, it was
hard to. Hard to be
(30:08):
okay with, you know, not things being
perfect or done as you would like them to do.
Or again, do you
have an anecdote there that clergy
in these contexts have been able to kind of have
good boundaries for themselves?
>> Kristen Bentley (30:26):
Yeah. I tried to include some different
tips that ministers have shared with
me about how they
manage everything.
Um, and
I do think.
I don't remember if I included the book or
not, but I remember that, um, a
(30:48):
minister said, oh, it might be the
same Reverend sue who said that.
She is in a meeting
and they're discussing a
project or ministry,
and her impulse is to say,
yeah, I'll take care of that. But
(31:09):
instead she's able to say,
well, that's a great idea,
but somebody else, who else can step up and do
that? Um, and I know
in my own ministry, I mean, I
was so excited and supercharged after seminary
to, you know, to just go out there and take all those
great ideas that I had learned, all
(31:32):
those learnings and gleanings from seeing other
people. And you do have to step back, as
you say,
just because you might do it a certain way
that you think is better or more
perfect. You have to
step back and let things
(31:52):
happen. Not exactly the way you
want them to happen. Um,
sometimes I've been surprised by that. I think I tell
a story, uh, that I learned
from, uh, about the idea of the
Backyard bouquets,
um, where I, uh, think that
church had a very large sanctuary.
(32:15):
Uh, at one time they had purchased bouquets
every Sunday, you know, that would make the
sanctuary beautiful. But over time
they had replaced them with plastic,
uh, bouquets that they rotated for, you
know, different seasons. And the
pastor one spring just invited people to bring
some from their own, uh,
(32:38):
backyards, front yards, whatever. And that,
that kind of unleashed this
sense in the congregation that, yeah, we can do new
things, uh, we have resources right
there and we don't have to
feel that because we can't buy
those fancy bouquets anymore from a
florist, that we can't have a place of
(33:01):
beauty, um, in which we
worship. And I actually think that's an
improvement over buying the big bouquets.
Um, this idea that
we uh, we have
resources that are undiscovered and that
as a pastor we don't have to organize it, we can just step
(33:21):
back, issue the invitation and
then watch things come forth.
They may not come forth. I'm not saying it's a
guarantee for success, but
that we need to allow that to happen. And
sometimes we're very reluctant because we think
as ministers that we know the
(33:41):
better way. Um, but there's
actually many better good ways. Maybe not better
ways, but there's actually many good ways.
>> Loren (33:50):
So let's.
I want to shift this conversation before we're done here
to explore two areas that
I can't remember if you cover, well, somewhat explicitly in
your book, but then again from your context in a seminary. I
also want to explore the questions of kind of
structural, denominational, theological
education type questions around bivocational
(34:11):
ministry. So I'll ask this in two parts
and we can explore each part individually, but
I want to make sure I get the questions out there. So the first I'm thinking
about is how denominations can
better support bivocational pastors. Because I'm thinking
like for me, as someone who
often on does
(34:31):
ministry and certainly is trying to retain my
standing within the denomination for
non mainline listeners, you may not understand that,
but
working full time 9 to 5, Monday through Friday,
it's hard for me to make meetings. And again,
thinking from bi vocational perspective, it's going to be hard
(34:51):
for someone who's bivocational working another job to necessarily
make meetings Monday through Friday,
but conversely like also mainline or full
time clergy. And I get this, like hate Saturday meetings
because they're like, hey, we want our weekends. Like we're
supposed to be taking a Sabbath here and if you're having us come in on
Saturdays, that is hard. So that's a
(35:12):
one challenge I want to talk through. And then B
is like the latter part is
taking on a full seminary education
debt. Four years seems
increasingly difficult and expensive and
not financially the most
wise investment, we might say, thinking
about not being able to get a return on that investment
(35:34):
again purely from a fiscal
perspective. So those are two big questions. And you're
welcome to take those one at a time.
>> Kristen Bentley (35:43):
Yeah. And help me remember both of them.
>> Loren (35:45):
Well, just the example for one of
denomination. How denominations can better
support bivocational pastors
thinking contextually of
structurally.
>> Kristen Bentley (35:58):
Right. And that is a big question, I think
because for a long
time denominations have
nurtured the idea that success
is by getting bigger,
um, maybe even holding up this idea that
every church should strive for having
a fully funded,
(36:20):
professionally ordained,
uh, pastor. And so over
time denominations have kind of built
a support structure for that. I refer to this as a
trellis. Kind of in the book is, you
know, you have this idea
of what success should look like
(36:40):
and well meaning, I mean
you're not doing this usually in a
dubious way. I don't think you just, that's what you think success
is. So you build that trellis to support
that kind of ministry. So I think the
big important thing for denominations to do
is to begin to, for leaders to really begin
(37:01):
to ask those crucial questions of
where in our system are we supporting
things in a manner that is
privileging full time ministers,
privileging the big churches because they're the
minority. They're, they're not the
majority of our congregations out there.
(37:21):
And those questions need to be
wide ranging. I think
when you um, mention when
do clergy get together? Of course I, um, know
I'm currently serving as a bivocational,
uh, interim minister and our
district meetings happen to be on the one
day that I'm at the church each week. So that
(37:44):
has worked out well.
>> Loren (37:45):
Right.
>> Kristen Bentley (37:45):
I can do it, but often it doesn't
work out well. And you're right,
nobody who works Monday through
Friday in a congregation and then on Sunday,
hopefully with a day off, um, wants to get
together for a church meeting on Saturdays.
And actually lots of bi vocational ministers don't want to get
(38:06):
together on meetings on Saturdays either. Some of them work on
Saturdays. Um, so I think
asking questions of how do we manage
just allowing more
room for diversity, make sure we're not
always setting things up so they're most
convenient with the people who work 40 hours
(38:26):
a week for either the denomination or a
congregation that needs to look at things
like you know, how do we structure our
retirement.
>> Loren (38:35):
Yes.
>> Kristen Bentley (38:36):
Systems. Um, how do we structure search
and call?
Um, who gets a
voice in making decisions? I
mean, are our assemblies and gatherings set up so that
mostly the smaller pastors or the
pastors who are bi vocational can't afford
to attend or can't afford to vote? What, uh, about
(38:58):
our resources? You know, do our resources that we
provide for congregations
assume you've got a big group there?
>> Loren (39:06):
Mhm.
>> Kristen Bentley (39:07):
Or are they set up so that they can be
done with smaller groups and then the
larger congregations can add on? It's
much easier for them to add on to something
than for a smaller congregation to subtract
from whatever is set up. Um,
so I think that just
(39:27):
opening up some serious reflection
and questioning because all our different
denominations and traditions are so different
that to say, oh, everybody needs to do this, that's just not going to
work. We've got to figure out what works
in our context. We've got to lean
into loving those small churches and those bi
(39:47):
vocational pastors. So we set up things,
uh, that work for them, work for
us.
>> Loren (39:54):
Yeah. I should say, and I will give a shout out
to our, our retirement
fund, uh, for Chris and I both within the Christian
church. I'm making assumptions that you're within this retirement
fund. The
pension fund of the Christian church, I think is really making good
steps to try to address this challenge of
bivocational ministry. So shout out to
(40:16):
them to the pension fund.
>> Kristen Bentley (40:18):
Right. I think our denomination is
doing a lot to listen to these things
and to open them up.
>> Loren (40:26):
Yeah.
So let's explore the other half of that question, that
big question of thinking about theological education.
Seminary.
>> Kristen Bentley (40:34):
Yeah. And I mean, I first started
working at Lexington Theological Seminary at
a time when they were really paying attention to a lot
of this. Um, uh,
so you're right.
If somebody spends three to four
years getting a Master's
(40:55):
of Divinity and have
accrued debt, maybe on top of their
undergraduate school debt, and then they
look down the road at what they're going to make
in terms of a pastor, whether they work
just for a church or they're bivocational. It's really a
tough, tough thing to do. We
looked at, uh, so I think a lot of
(41:17):
theological schools now are looking at that.
Um, they're offering more flexible, uh,
um, ways for people to engage
in their studies. Um, I know we have a lot of our
coursework is offered online with
asynchronous, which means, you know, you can work on your
schoolwork without everybody else being
(41:38):
in the same room. Even the same zoom room,
um, or conference call room however you have it set
up. Um, and then also
I think a lot of theological schools are looking at
alternatives to the Master of Divinity.
Yeah, um, I know. Ah, again we
have a couple different certificate
(41:59):
programs where people can begin into a
certificate program, they can complete that and
then if they want to continue into the M. Div. They
can, um, and also flexible
payment plans. I mean, do we have
to always pay for a whole tuition, I mean
a whole semester or term at a time
or can we pay for course by
(42:21):
course, can we have monthly
payment plans for students? Things um,
like that. I know those are things that come to mind because we've
done some of those things at uh.
Lts I think actually we've done all those things.
Uh, but I know when I was working on the economic
challenges grant that Lily funded,
um, in their initiative a few years
(42:43):
ago, those were things that a lot of schools
were looking at. And so I do hope that the
landscape for those entering
into theological uh,
education can have more of those opportunities to free
them up from debt and to open
doorways into ministry.
>> Loren (43:02):
Yeah, I think that's so important. Like, I'm just thinking about
even. Not even like
uh, the finances, but I'm thinking like committing
four years, especially
in a career path. Taking aside four
years, if you're going to be bivocational, that's going
to negatively impact your own.
(43:23):
Outside the church, career growth can really be
difficult. And I'm thinking about models,
new learning models like Coursera that
are, like you said, asynchronous, kind of go at your
own pace, have different
pace. Structures are
really, are really growing.
I think for good reason and I suppose this will
(43:45):
be our last question maybe before we take a break, but do you think. I
know in our tradition, the Christian church, Disciples of
Christ, ordination has largely been
conditioned or conditional, I should
say, on getting an M. Div. A Master Divinity.
Do you think? I mean what do we uh. I don't even remember. Do
we have like, we have like a license or what is even the
(44:06):
terminology anymore? Do we need to make more space
for that?
>> Kristen Bentley (44:10):
Yeah, we did make more space.
We re. Examined the
uh. I've forgotten the names
of it, but we examined the
paths to uh, ordination a few
years ago and there are
ministers who,
um, a growing number of
ministers who are becoming ordained without
(44:33):
having gone to seminary. Ah,
that like you're describing the four year M. Div.
Program, um, there are also
ah, ways of looking at prior experience
now, um, but
we're really talking about the Ordination process. Right. Not
theological education, but, uh, um, within
(44:53):
the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, we
have opened up the path to
ordination. The other kind of
minister we have in many places is the
commission minister, right?
>> Loren (45:06):
That's right.
>> Kristen Bentley (45:06):
I think that terminology replaced what we used to call the
licensed minister. But anybody who's
a commission minister and many
bivocational ministers are commissioned
ministers. They,
um, are getting
theological education,
leadership training, not just through
(45:27):
seminaries. They're going maybe through a region,
may offer a lay
school or, um, a school for
ministry. And they
look at these different areas, and the
group
that has conversations
with people as they're pursuing ordination,
(45:50):
the Committee on Ministry, they look
at these different areas outside of
just getting an M. Div. So you still have to do education.
You have to show you're serious.
Um, it's not that
those degrees are
obstacles as much as
(46:12):
they are ways to help an
individual person explore.
How will I do ministry? Well,
yeah. What are the things I need to learn,
Relearn, um,
unlearn, uh, to become
the best minister I can be and
to lead a congregation where I eventually
(46:34):
serve or when I'm already
serving. Some of them are already serving when they're going through
this process.
>> Loren (46:41):
Well, and I think this is the other side of this conversation that is
so difficult because,
I mean, I think, uh, uh, an example of this is
in the SBC in the Southern Baptist Church, who,
if I remember correctly, historically has, like, the lowest
percentage of clergy with
education.
(47:01):
And certainly I don't want to just throw the SPC under the bus
alone because we've seen this example throughout the Christian
tradition of abuse and
impropriety and especially sexual
abuse. But I think that
is why mainline traditions have
held up such a high expectation and standard
for clergy and for ministry is to try to prevent
(47:24):
and keep any schmuck from getting
in there. So it's a
complex conversation and, uh, we, uh, should leave it
there just for the sake of time. Um, but I
wanted again recommend the book is BI
Vocational Ministry Field Notes for Congregations and
Ministers.
Uh, Chris talks a lot about the stuff in we've
(47:46):
talked about already, as well as some helpful
appendixes and resources that could be
really useful for churches and pastors
who are thinking about or going through this
conversation, uh, as we speak. So, uh,
let's take a quick break. We'll come back with some closing questions.
All right, we're back with Chris Bentley. So thank you for the
(48:09):
conversation. Appreciate your time. I think these are
important topics, and I'm glad, Glad, uh, to have it
with you. So let's go through these closing questions
again. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously
or not as you'd like to, but, uh,
if you're Pope for a day, any thoughts on
that day?
>> Kristen Bentley (48:27):
Well, yeah, that was kind of. I realized if I were
Pope for a day, we'd be in a different world because I'm a
woman. Um, but I was thinking that if
I had the power of the Pope and the
authority and the voice of the Pope, I think I would
really do whatever was in my power to
encourage and equip congregations
to have a deep conversation about shared
(48:49):
ministry.
>> Loren (48:50):
Yes.
>> Kristen Bentley (48:51):
About this thing of how do we go
about having ministry where
one person or one group of people aren't
lording it over the others as, you know, where we
can be in ministry together and really
fulfilling our individual and congregational
calls.
>> Loren (49:10):
That's very on theme. So that's a good answer. I suppose
a theologian or historical Christian
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Kristen Bentley (49:20):
Well, there's a whole posse of them out there. But I
was thinking a couple years ago, I went
to the Underground Railroad
National Historical, um, Park
and M. I would love to meet Harriet
Tubman.
I. I think she is a theologian
(49:41):
in her own way. She didn't write much.
Um, I wish I could remember the quote. They have a
church fan for sale in one of the
sites we went on. The Byway. The Harriet Tubman
Byway, where you visited all the sites in
Maryland. I just thought she was the
example of a person who
took. Who contextualized
(50:03):
her Bible learnings from her mother,
which obviously she
deeply respected the book of Exodus and
its message of liberation.
But then she actually put her life on the
line and gave it her all. I mean, freeing people
through the Underground Railroad. So I would love to
meet her and just tap in a little bit more
(50:26):
to that courage and strength that she had.
>> Loren (50:30):
Yeah, great, great.
Um, what do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Kristen Bentley (50:37):
Oh, if we're talking about the United States of
America.
>> Loren (50:41):
Yeah. I leave it purposely ambiguous.
>> Kristen Bentley (50:45):
Um, I think, sadly,
this time will be thought of as a time of
division. Um, I think people are
very divided, and I think also
where there are a lot of lonely people,
um, because of this division, I think we've
diminished some of our capacity to have good
(51:05):
conversations and fruitful
conversations.
Um, so that is
something I think history will remember
from current time and place if we're talking about just the culture
at large in our nation.
>> Loren (51:20):
Well, I was just listening to a podcast from Simon Sinek
last night he was interviewing the Surgeon General.
They were talking about loneliness. Uh, and,
uh, it's funny, the surgeon General made a point
about having people over even if your house is a mess,
because they won't remember the mess. They'll remember the people,
the conversation. And I'm somewhat skeptical of that, but
(51:41):
I suppose I can appreciate the intention, maybe both.
>> Kristen Bentley (51:43):
Maybe they'll remember the people in the mess.
>> Loren (51:45):
But, yeah, uh, what
are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> Kristen Bentley (51:51):
Oh, man, I do have a lot of hopes
for the future of Christianity. As we
realign relationships, I think it's inevitable
that, um, as we see
more and more that,
uh, it's important for local
congregations to find their own call.
I mean, that's my hope, is that local
(52:13):
congregations will find that real
sense, whether, no matter how small they are,
um, or how large, but that
they'll really move into that space where they can
be a, uh, source of
light, of energy
for their community. Um,
and where we can have those
(52:36):
kind of conversations like we're talking about where people can bring their
real selves and where they can be
better places, stronger places,
where the Christian faith is
formed among believers. You know, that we
can. That is my hope. I think it's going to
happen. Um, I just think we're going through
a rough patch of trying to sort and
(52:58):
figure out how to get there.
>> Loren (53:00):
Yeah, that's a good point. I appreciate that.
Uh, well, you mentioned you don't necessarily
have a strong social media presence, and I think that's okay.
But, uh, where else can people find out more about you,
connect with you, the book, all
that?
>> Kristen Bentley (53:15):
Right. Well, the book is published through Chalice Press, so it's
available on the Chalice Press website. Website, and,
you know, those other big places like Amazon and stuff
like that. Um, I work for Lexington
Theological Seminary. It's in Kentucky, and
we have a website, Lex Theo. Um,
and, um, I, I do have a
(53:35):
LinkedIn page. I just don't check
things very often, but I do check them so
people could reach me through those things. I,
I think the book, uh, you know, I'm eager for
people to, to get the book and
use it, to use
it to learn more about. Through those stories
(53:55):
I've got in it about many different ministers.
But, yeah, I don't have a huge social media
presence. Maybe I need to do something about it.
>> Loren (54:03):
Well, it's good and bad.
That's okay. Well, again, I appreciate your time.
I thank you for the conversation and I hope that the book
is, uh, helpful for many folks out there.
So uh, we always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Kristen Bentley (54:20):
And also with you. Thank you very much. Lauren.
>> Loren (54:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(54:50):
But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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