Breaking Barriers: Women in Ministry Leadership Roundtable

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today we
have a special roundtable episode on Women in
Ministry Leadership featuring four participants,
including our very own Martha Tatarnic. Let me
read through our guest bios. First, we have
Reverend Tabitha Johnson, who is a pastor in the
Christian church Disciples of Christ. She has
served as a pastor and chaplain for over 20 years.

(01:07):
She's a graduate from the University of Missouri,
Kansas City and Central Baptist Theological
Seminary. She's co editor and contributor to the
book Still A Journey through perinatal
bereavement. A 2017 gold medal winner in the
Illumination Book Awards, she currently serves as
a Senior Pastor at Shawnee Community Christian
Church in Kansas, where she serves joyfully

(01:29):
alongside people who love Jesus and one another.
Her greatest love besides her family and her
church, uh, are coffee and starting home
improvement projects in her home that someday,
hopefully, she will finish. Tabtha lives with her
spouse Corey and their children in the Kansas City
metro. We also have the Venerable Sheila Van
Zwick, Archdeacon of Lincoln Deanery and the

(01:52):
Rector of Church of the Transfiguration. Sheila
was born and raised in St. Catharines, Ontario and
was raised in the Christian Reformed Church. She
began attending an Anglican church in her 20s and
started seminary at 40. She worked in retail for a
number of years and was the manager of Shoppers
Drug Mart. She's been ordained for 17 years and

(02:14):
worked in churches in Oakville, Hamilton and now
St. Catharines, Ontario and has been at
Transfiguration for six years. Also we have the
Reverend Canon Catherine Morgan. Cathie graduated
with a Master of Divinity from Trinity College,
University of Toronto. She is ordained in the
Diocese of Niagara where she has had the privilege

(02:36):
of serving in rural small town and city parishes
for 29 years. Currently she is the Rector of
Church of the Resurrection in Hamilton. In her
free time, she loves to sing, enjoy puzzles, and
is the proud parent of an adult son. Um, last but
not least, we have our very own Martha Tatarnic,
co host and regular contributor to the show. A

(02:58):
reminder before we start today's conversation
Please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. You can connect with Loren, Martha and
Future Christian on Instagram. We appreciate your
voice and how we faithfully discern the future of
the church.

(03:26):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is
Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
hosting a, uh, Women in Ministry roundtable
discussion with a whole host of wonderful guests.
First we have the Venerable Sheila Van Zandwyck,
then Reverend Canon Catherine Morgan. The Reverend
Canon Martha Tatarnic, who you all should know.

(03:49):
And soon, uh, to be joining us, having some
technical issues, the Reverend Tabitha Johnson.
So, hello everyone. Welcome to the show. Thanks
for being here.

>> Martha Tatarnic (03:59):
Thanks for having us, Loren.

>> Cathie Morgan (04:00):
Great.

>> Loren (04:02):
Let's go. I guess based on how I'm seeing you on
screen. Cathie, is there anything else you want
our listeners to know about?

You don't even know where to start. Um, I've been
privileged. I've been in the same diocese, have
had a chance to minister in both, uh, small
parishes, country parishes, as well as city
parishes. I've done lots of volunteer work, uh,
from the diocese and in the community, which is
lovely. Which is also how I know some of these
wonderful colleagues in ministry through some of
the, um, things that we've done together. Um, I

(04:32):
getting up there in years. I be 29 years. I've
been 29 years ordained. And I feel at some point
in time I should know what I'm doing after that
long a time. But it's, it's been a real gift and a
real blessing to have to have had the journey that
I have with good colleagues, good friends and
wonderful parishes.

>> Loren (04:47):
Awesome. Sheila, how about you?

>> Sheila Van Zandwyck (04:50):
Um, I think. Are we talking call or just giving
people general ideas about me?

>> Loren (04:57):
Yeah, general ideas about me decorating my.

House and doing gardening.

>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah, there you go.

Yeah, right. That is kind of my, uh, that is where
I like to be is working at home. And I love a good
renovation project, whether it's indoors or
outdoors. Um, I spend time with. I've got a
brother who lives close by. Spend time with him
and his girlfriend and they're great pets. In
fact, I was pet sitting the other night. So I'm a

(05:21):
dog and cat aunt. So yeah, that's a good thing.
But yeah, I love ministry, love, uh, all the
people that I work with and the opportunities have
been given. It's good stuff.

>> Loren (05:31):
Awesome. Awesome. And I guess everyone should know
the, you know, the famous Martha Tatarnic. Martha,
anything else need to know about you?

Cathie hinted at. Cathie, Sheila and I do all work
together in the Anglican Church in the Niagara
region. Um, and we're excited to be joined by
Tabitha today as well for, like, a, uh, non
Anglican perspective on the question of women in
ministry. But, yeah, I'm really grateful that
Cathie and Sheila were willing to join us from

(06:02):
Niagara today.

>> Loren (06:03):
Absolutely.
Well, let's get into that. Sheila, like you
mentioned, kind of your call story, how you first
were drawn into ministry and, and how that shaped
you.

Do you want me to start?

>> Loren (06:17):
Go for it.

Um, so for me, it was kind of interesting because
I was raised in the Christian reform tradition and
women are not. At the time that I was going there,
women were not allowed to lead churches, be
ministers, um, at all. So I had no familiarity
with women in the priesthood or in the ministry

(06:39):
at, um. And so I think that it's one of the
reasons it took me a little while to kind of hear
my call. I really didn't hear until I was in my
30s. And by that time I had been attending an
Anglican church probably for about a little over
10 years, I would say. And, um, one day I had
someone. I had been leading a Bible study for

(07:00):
years. I'd been, you know, gone to church since my
baptism, you know, two months after my birth. So
I, um, always been involved and engaged with the
church and ministry and my faith life. And so I
was leading this Bible study for quite a while,
and this one woman kept saying, I think you should
be a priest. And I kept thinking, really? I don't
think you've got that right. Um, and so it took me

(07:22):
a little while to kind of see myself in that role
and to even begin to think about it. But literally
the day that I thought, oh, it just clicked and
realized that that was what I was called to. I
went and spoke with someone who was very wise, and
they said to me, well, you know, what do you think
the gifts of a priest would be? And I said, well,

(07:45):
this, this, this, and this. She said, do you have
any of those gifts? And I said, I kind of have
them all. She's like, then maybe, Shelley, you
should be a minister. I'm like, well, maybe I
should. And I really, once I said yes to the call,
recognized you, uh, know, how strong it had been
in my life and how much it meant to me. And, yeah,
has been fabulous going forward from there.

>> Loren (08:07):
Awesome.
Thanks for sharing that. Cathie, how about you?

So we started feeling a call to ministry when I
was still just a teenager, which was a very
strange thing for me. I was painfully shy as a
young person. It's hard to Believe. But I couldn't
even make eye contact. If I had known you most of
my life, I couldn't make eye contact. And so I
started kind of feeling this call to kind of be
involved and engaged with people. Um, I was

(08:32):
involved a little bit in my church as a teenager
doing a few things liturgically, but kind of, um,
did quite a bit of work with, uh, the minister at
the time. And he would take me to people's houses
because, again, needed somebody else to go do some
of those visits. He didn't feel comfortable all
the time going alone. And so you got so that you
could kind of talk to people and kind of walk with
them. And to realize that that was part of what I

(08:54):
was feeling. The call to do is to be a part of
people's lives in a very real and a very
meaningful way. Not just superficially or not just
kind of liturgically, but to be able to kind of
walk with people and journey with them and to
remind them that they weren't alone in all of
that. And so I kind of came out of my shell when I
was about 18, and all of a sudden could talk to
people and make eye contact and all those kinds of
things. But, um, some of that was kind of enforced

(09:17):
and held up by the people around me. Would never
have thought of this kind of idea on my own. But
as I said, there were people kind of encouraging
me and mentoring me and, you know, pushing me out
of my comfort zone, uh, to kind of fulfill and to
use the gifts that I had been given. So it was. It
was a wonderful. A wonderful kind of affirming it
from the community.

>> Loren (09:36):
Martha, I don't know if I've ever heard this story
from you, so I'm. I'm especially excited to hear
your perspective on this.

Yeah, I also was a teenager. I was about 15. And,
um, I experienced that sense of call as being
extremely inconvenient because I had other very,
uh, firmly laid out plans for myself. I've always
been pretty type A, and I had my life mapped out

(10:04):
for myself in a way that did not include ordained
ministry in any respect. But, um, I just started
to get this niggling sense that this was what I
was supposed to do. And I. I fought against that
m. For a time until it really felt like kind of a
surrender to it. Like, okay, am I going to spend

(10:26):
my whole life doing something else when I know
this is what I'm supposed to do? Um, but I think
the thing that I've been thinking about so much
lately, Loren, with that call Is, um, you know,
because we've had some different, uh, guests on

(10:47):
our podcast lately, particularly I'm thinking
about the documentary around the Philadelphia 11.
And. And I'm interested in, like, Sheila's note,
too, in terms of growing up in a church where
there weren't women in leadership. Like, I'm
really realizing over 20 years into ministry and

(11:09):
almost 30 years since I started to discern that
call, like, what a privilege it was to grow up in
a church where women had always been in ministry
and how much more that, like, that imagination,
um, is, like, unfettered, because you see it as a

(11:32):
possibility. And I think for Sheila, or for some
of those trailblazing women in the Anglican
Episcopal Church of England, um, who had to
really, like, speak back against those voices that
said, we don't do this, um, uh, I find that quite

(11:54):
amazing. So I've been feeling a lot of gratitude
as I sort of consider that, uh, privilege of
growing up in a church where women had been
ordained longer than I had been alive.

>> Loren (12:08):
Well, that's a.
That's a question I feel like I should ask off the
jump is how do y' all think. How did being a woman
affect that call, discernment? Like, do you. Do
you think it was harder for community,
recognition, those sorts of things?

I think for me, it wasn't. I don't think it was
harder. I think it was just harder for me
personally to see myself in it. And it's true,
Marta. Like, I've heard conversations and read
stories about people, and, uh, sometimes it's
women, sometimes it's people who are poor,

(12:50):
sometimes it's minorities and how much we're
starting to recognize if we don't show them
opportunities at a young age, then they just don't
even envision it. And really, if you don't
envision it, it's not going to happen. So, I mean,
I just. It just. I didn't even recognize. I kind
of had those blinders on. Right. And that, you

(13:13):
know, that I needed to think about that and
experience it. It was one of the things. Marian
Vincette was, um, one of the people involved in my
onboarding as an. As an orden ordinance to go
through the ordination process. And she kind of
recognized that in my first few interviews, even
still, after I had already accepted it, to say, I

(13:33):
think I need you to go and work with, um, a female
priest who's been a priest for a while and spend
some time with them so that you get a better sense
of envisioning yourself in that role. Um, and so
that's what she did. I had the privilege of
working with, uh, Reverend Dorothy Hewlett, who
was just wonderful. Spent, you know, four months

(13:53):
with her and just seeing how she was in that role
as a priest, but as a female priest, what that
kind of looked like, what she kind of worked
against and what she had to bring to the table as
that m. I learned a great deal from her about
pastoral care. Watching her walk into a hospital

(14:17):
room with a sick person, it wasn't just a sort of
standing there very piously at the bedside, you
know, reading this 23rd Psalm or something. She
would walk right in, often, hug them. How are you?
Do you need anything? I watched her feed people
pudding because they weren't able to, you know,
that, that, that was part of what she brought as a

(14:41):
woman to ministry, I think, was that comfort and
knees around offering that kind of stuff.

>> Tabitha Johnson (14:48):
Mhm.

>> Loren (14:49):
Well, thanks for sharing that. Cathie, why don't
you share and then, uh, we're welcoming in Tabitha
here. Here in a moment.
Or Tabitha, while you're getting dialed in,
Cathie, why don't you share about how you feel?
Um, any thoughts on that same question?

Because I've been at this a little bit longer. My
early years in ministry looked a little different
and what that process looked like was different.
Um, I had the love and the support of my home
parish, but that was a long time in coming because
girls just didn't participate, you know, a little
bit. It was a little country church and a little
church and girls just didn't do stuff like that.
Like you weren't allowed to be involved in certain

(15:27):
things. Like there was a role for women and a role
for men. And so that was also why this call to
ministry was so strange because girls just didn't
do that. I, um, know when I was early in the
process, uh, I was, we were all required to jump
through the same hoops. But the expectation is
that the men needed full time jobs because they

(15:47):
had a wife or a family to support. Well, I was
married at the time and so I could do a halftime
job or didn't need a job as urgently as some of
the other ones. And in fact, for the first 10
years of my ministry I was in part time positions
because of that. So, uh, you know, some of that
came with time and it certainly changed over time.
But I think being a young woman in ministry was,

(16:08):
uh, there were extra hurdles and there were a
little higher hurdles at times. Just because it
was still wouldn't say it was on the early edge of
it because we've been doing it for almost 50 years
now. But there were certainly still things, uh,
kind of there were times when it was holding me
back because I was a young women trying to go into
ministry. Ordained full time rectorship ministry.
Not a priest associate or a youth worker or.

>> Loren (16:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Let's
welcome in Tabitha here.
Tabitha. We're discussing kind of our folks's uh,
call stories and then how you discern that call
and then especially talk, talking about, uh, how
that might have been more challenging or some
additional hurdles you might have had to navigate

(16:52):
as a, as a woman.

Oh, wow. Uh, what a great question. So I've always
been fortunate to be surrounded by, in ministry.
Um, you know, when I, in my childhood we didn't
really go to church and so professionally though,

(17:15):
and I experienced a call to ministering. Uh, I
started at a church who had a woman minister,
director of children's education and the senior
pastor was a woman. I'm fortunate to be in a
denomination disabled place that is incredibly,
uh, of women in the country. I am surrounded by

(17:38):
colleagues that are women that have foster
positions. Um, but I will say the church that I
started at, um, attending in high school in our
church, they had ordained women since. But good

(17:58):
luck finding a woman as a pastor, uh, of anything,
but maybe a children's pastor. And not that
there's anything wrong with that because I adore
our children's pastor. I think she's amazing. Uh,
that was the limit. Be a pastor as long as you
still supported a man's role. And the men were the

(18:22):
senior pastors. Women could be youth pastors, they
could be children's pastors, they could be
chaplains and the denomination would ordain women,
uh, without any trouble. But finding a church and
being a senior pastor, I didn't know any women or
senior pastors who preach on the regular. So it

(18:48):
wasn't until I already felt a call to ministry and
started working at a church that I experienced in
those leadership positions. And honestly, since
then as both the chaplain and as a congregational
minister, I've been incredibly fortunate to face,

(19:09):
um, where we have women clergy for years, so to
speak. Absolutely delight and really enrich my
experience. It's really challenged me better
minister because I have all of these. One example
in our denomination, the last two general

(19:31):
ministers and president and women. Um, and so I'm
in a strange position where church that formed me
didn't have that. But the church that I moved as a
professional has nurtured my call and.

>> Loren (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, awesome.

Yeah, I mean, thanks for sharing that it's great.
And I've also been a chaplain in health care, of
course, healthcare, you know, had a lot of women
positions. I served in the military. That was
mostly, I wasn't a chaplain. I, um, and so that

(20:27):
maybe was a, ah, place where I experienced some
um, in the nursery. Um, but even still it was,
mhm. You know, basically I'm in a position where I
am reaping benefits, had to fight and who had to

(20:52):
struggle, um, who faced challenges. I'm.

>> Loren (21:08):
Yeah, yeah. Well thanks for sharing that. Martha.
Why don't you jump in here, share about how you,
how navigating that call experience for you as a
woman was more or less challenging.

Yeah, I mean I think that I was pretty naive
actually in going into ministry because I like
just was raised in a church where women in
ministry seemed like a normal thing. Um, I, I have
the interesting experience of being married to
another Anglican priest and we were ordained about

(21:46):
a year apart from one another. So Dan began in
ministry about a year, year and a half before I
did. But I think that was the real like wake up
call for me was just seeing the authority that was
granted to him when he walked into a room that was

(22:06):
not accorded to me. My very first day on the job,
um, at St. Jude's in Oakville as an assistant
curate. Um, and I was wearing a collar and doing
all of the things. But um, one of the women came
up to me. We were hosting vacation Bible school

(22:27):
and she came up to me and scolded me for taking
the scissors. Like because she didn't realize that
I was the new assistant curate. Like I was, she
just thought I was a member of the youth group.
Um, let me tell you, nobody ever scolded Dan for
taking the scissors from the newsletter table at

(22:50):
ah, his first parish. Right. Like, um, but there's
an upside to that. Like there's an upside to
having to earn your authority with people. I think
Sheila, you kind of named it a bit in referencing
our colleague Dorothy. Like there is a way in
which you can be, um, easy with people. Um, that

(23:14):
has a lot of upsides. And I think that you
establish authority just by being a good leader.
You know, you don't have to, you don't have to um,
pull any punches or pull rank. Like uh, and people
don't necessarily place you on a pedestal just

(23:36):
because you wear a collar and have a title. If you
want people to respect you, then you have to earn
it. And that's I think actually a pretty good
thing in ministry.

>> Loren (23:48):
So there's an interesting Dynamic here in that
Martha, um, Sheila and Cathie all work within
Canadian, uh, Anglican tradition. And then Tabitha
and myself, Tabitha here on the panel work within
the Christian Church of Christ. We don't wear. In
our clergy tradition, we don't wear collars.

(24:11):
So I'm curious, uh, Tavtha mentioned something
already that I want to play off of. Uh, a, do you
think, like, uh, having representation, having
mentors, you could look to whether it was growing
up or in your early form of ministry, was that
helpful? And then B, like, do you think having

(24:31):
that, like, symbolic authority of a caller or lack
thereof would have been helpful or was not
helpful? So, Cathie, why don't you start? And then
Tabitha, you can. You can talk about, like,
thoughts about call or lack thereof, I suppose.

Been some wonderful mentors. Um, Sheila mentioned
Marian Vincent. I was a student with her when she
was still in parish ministry and was one of my
presenters at my ordination. And she had a
beautiful way of just being authentically herself.
And so as I was kind of trying to navigate a
system that didn't quite know what to do with me,
it was lovely to have that wonderful example of

(25:09):
somebody just being 100 authentically who she was.
And she could chair the meeting. She could go into
the nursing home and untangle the wool while she
visited and do everything in the middle. And so it
was a lovely gift to see somebody who didn't try
to fit into a mold or cookie cutter. Uh, she just
was who she authentically is in ministry. And so

(25:30):
it was. And she'd just been named archdeacon and
so had some responsibility and just again, took
that on as herself. She didn't again try to fit
into any kind of a cookie cutter model and just
kind of claimed her authority and modeled that
authority and just modeled being authentic in the
midst of that. And so that was a beautiful gift as

(25:50):
a young student, trying to kind of define who I
was and figure all this out. It was an absolute
gift to have somebody like her to walk with for a
period of time and to be inspired by her. She
still, um, inspires all of us. I think I can say
that quite clearly. The three of us who still have
the opportunity to minister with her, um, that.
That's a real gift. And I forget what the second

(26:11):
part of the question was.

>> Loren (26:12):
Like the collar, do you think, like, having that
kind of, like, external. I don't know what the
word is. Like, do you think that helps?

It's a symbol. It's a symbol. It did help, um,
because when I was first ordained, I had just
turned 26 and I looked very young. And so to. At
least. Even if people didn't always see that,
like, I. Like a nice, full collar. So the nice
round one, people thought I had a turtleneck on
underneath something. So it didn't always work.

>> Loren (26:36):
Yeah.

Um, but, you know, it did help a little bit, and
it was more helpful, I think, when I went into
things like hospitals, um, it was an easy symbol.
If you didn't always have your badge with you or
even if you did, uh, um, it was helpful. Uh, I did
a lot of funerals. There was a funeral home around
the corner close to my first parish, did a lot of
funerals. And so somebody they didn't know walking
in. It was a symbol that people understood and

(26:58):
recognized. And so, um, you know, I certainly. I
used to joke. I used to have clerical pajamas. I
wore them all the time when I was first ordained
and now less so. But there are times when having
that outward symbol and it. It kind of helps
identify you, maybe if you're in somewhere that
people don't know you or unfamiliar or need to be
able to quickly spot who is the one that we need

(27:18):
to turn to or connect with. And so, you know, I.
And then when I go to somewhere new, I tend to
wear it a lot for a little while, then I back off
a little bit. But it was. Especially in the early
days when I was. As I said, I looked very young as
well. And so it was a handy symbol to have.

Yeah.

>> Loren (27:33):
Tav, how about you? Like, I'm. I'm just thinking,
as Cathie was saying all that, like, I'm messing
with my collar, because when I was, gosh, early
30s, working my first solo pastorate, like, I wore
a tie a lot because, again, I was working in the
United Church of Christ tradition. Oh, we may have
just lost Tabitha.

We did.

Yeah.

>> Loren (27:53):
Well, let's have this. Martha or Sheila, while
she's getting back online, any thoughts on this,
um, mentorship or representation or, you know,
clerical callers?

Yeah, I mean, I think that I, uh, would agree with
Cathie. I felt like I really relied on the caller
when I was first ordained. And, um, I found that
less and less important. Important as. As I went
on and just kind of established who I was in the
community without needing it. Um, but, you know,

(28:27):
statistically, like, we know that representation
matters. We just. We know it. Like, we. Malcolm
Gladwell has done really interesting research on
how people are, um, judged when they're sort of
the. The poster girl of, like, uh, women's

(28:52):
advancement versus when there's a team of women
who are in leadership together. And lo and behold,
you know, you can be judged on your merits as a
person and a leader, not as like a representation
of an idea. Um, I think that, like, I think we're

(29:14):
about 50 years into the ordination of women, um,
in the Anglican Church of Canada, and yet our
bishop right now is the first female bishop of
Niagara, um, the archbishop of Canada, we call
them the primate. Um, the person who just retired

(29:36):
was the first female primate of Canada. Like, they
are continuing to be those trailblazers who I
think in a lot of ways get judged against a
different, ah, set of principles that hopefully
then paves the way for it to become just a

(29:57):
normalized thing where you, you see women as
people who are leading. And, um, and I certainly
think I have been the benefactor. Is that right? I
have benefited. I have benefited from, um, from

(30:21):
the women who like, were sort of out there alone,
um, in order to not feel so alone. And at the same
time, I think I've had to do some things alone.
Like when I was, um, when I was pregnant with my
first child, there weren't other women in the
church in this part of the world who were trying

(30:42):
to lead churches and have babies. Like, Cathie was
a number of years ahead of me on that, and I sort
of felt like I was by myself in that experience.
Um, and I had to navigate what that looked like.
And hopefully each of the little things that we

(31:05):
navigate will make it less lonely for the women
who come after us.

>> Loren (31:10):
Well, let's come. Let's explore that idea of
sacrifices that a woman had to make that a man
might not have to make. But before we do, we got
Tabitha back.
Tabitha, we're talking about kind of those
external representations. Like, did you, when you
were new in ministry, did you wear anything extra?
Like, I was explaining, like, I would wear a tie

(31:31):
when I was young in ministry at a solo pastor,
just because, like, I wanted to try to like, look
the part for my much older congregation.

Well, you, uh, know, we were talking about having
a collar and things like that and our, you know,
tradition, uh, bear collars. I have a couple of
women colleagues who do bear a collar for
precisely that region to go back. I, I haven't

(32:05):
done that. And, um, you know, I think in some ways
it would have made things a little bit because I,
I have a face where I looked much younger than
what I was. And so I, I would often end to where
maybe age isn't to, uh, be automatically be a

(32:29):
force. And I do think that that external
representation with that I have kind of A little
bit of maybe, ah, maybe not quite forceful
presence. But you certainly, um, tend to know who

(32:54):
I am pretty quickly. Um, so that, that is
something that if I could go back and change
things, it might be something that I would utilize
to make it a little bit easier. You know, when I
was in cp, my chaplain training, that's something
that I quite a bit is claiming my authority as
said.

>> Loren (33:14):
Yeah.

You know, not just in a hospital room, but that,
that, uh, certainly helped me have gone back
parish ministry. Um, yeah. Certainly not a tie,
though.

>> Loren (33:37):
Sheila, let's start with you on this. Like, Martha
brought it up. I'm sure you've all talked about it
to some extent already. I mean, Cathie, you
mentioned the idea of like, being expected to take
like a halftime call. Sheila, do you want to start
with sacrifices that you've had to make or perhaps
you've seen others have to make, other women have
to make that a man would not have to make?

Yeah, I think for myself, um, because I'm not
married and I didn't have kids, so I didn't have
to do that. But. And I mean, Martha, a, uh, bit
with your kids, but they were already a bit older.
I have colleagues that have young kids, and I do
see this struggle that when I look at other male

(34:24):
colleagues with kids of the same age, I don't see
that same kind of struggle happening. So the worry
about taking time off and how they will be
perceived and whether that will be kind of a black
mark against them because my child is sick and I
have to take another day off because. And I think

(34:46):
that that's not just in ministry, I gotta be
honest. I think that's across the board in the
industry. It's really kind of sad in this day and
age that still goes on that, you know, this whole
sense that you're not supposed to have both, or if
you do both, you're supposed to be somehow perfect
and your children never get sick and you're
wonderful. So I have seen that happen, um, for

(35:09):
other people, um, other colleagues, uh, within
ministry and without, I would say, um, I think,
you know, for myself, um, I think so. Interesting.
It kind of does tie in with the whole collar
thing.

>> Loren (35:25):
Yeah.

So I don't wear one very often because I was
raised in a tradition where you're right, the
minister wore a tie and even that, not all the
time. Right. So not kind of seeing that. And being
somebody who always liked fashion growing up and
so. And was very individual of my fashion, I
actually did wear ties and bow ties in high

(35:46):
school. Yeah. It was all of that bag of potato
chips. So at least I thought. But, but uh, as
someone who liked to express yourself in how they
dressed, I'm like, you want me to wear what with
what? Like, and the, the, the lack of femininity.
In fact, I even. And I was interested by the
response. I just said to somebody that I have a

(36:07):
dress that I quite love, but it's very, it's
longer and it's very floral. It's basically
sunflowers and flowers all over it. It's very
feminine. And I said, you know, I've never worn
this to work to church on a Sunday because I don't
know that it sends the right message. And it made
me think so, like, what message should I be

(36:29):
sending? Or doesn't it send? Or is that just in my
head? And they kind of looked at me. Now it was
another woman, but she's like, uh. She kind of
didn't get even what I was saying. She's like, why
didn't you just wear it? I'm like, well, isn't
that interesting? Like, do I. Even if I don't wear
the collar and I don't wear mine very often. I am
also a woman of a certain age who deals with hot

(36:51):
flashes on a regular, ongoing basis. Wearing a
shirt like this does not help that. So I think
that that was one of the things that I kind of,
ah, as trivial as it sounds, but in some ways it
was. I felt part of my own expression of who I was
was being taken m away a bit from it. And it's why

(37:12):
I've never. I do wear them, uh, like Cathie says,
it is very handy. Funerals, hospital visits, all
that. People know who you are, they know why
you're there and what you're doing. And that's
really important. So I definitely do that. But I
found more often than not if I wore it outside of
church, you just get odd looks. And the best is

(37:34):
being in a Catholic hospital.

>> Loren (37:36):
Yes.

And that was one time in an elevator with three
adorable little Italian nona grandmothers who you
could just see never spoke a word of English, but
were looking and talking and looking and talking.
And I thought, oh yeah, honey, you just gotta be
in the Anglican Church, that it's okay. Also the
number of times people see me in that and ask if
I'm Catholic. At which point I realized we're

(38:00):
doing a very poor job educationally, uh, about the
different denominations in the world with everyone
across the country. But yeah, as, as funny as that
sounds, there. There was that sense that I Felt
with that I had to give up a little of who I was
and that then I just wouldn't.

>> Loren (38:16):
So, Cathie, let me ask you a question. Kind of
playing off what Sheila just said here. I mean, if
you want to respond to the whole sacrifices thing
too, and working part time, that's fine. But I'm
like, this is again, like something that I. I
mean, I've had people compliment my suit, but I've
never been like, if I'm wearing a. I was wearing a
suit, but I've never had somebody be like, oh,

(38:37):
Loren should be really wearing that to church.

Uh, I wore a lot of suits because that was kind of
the thing. You wore suits with your clergy collar,
um, or kind of a dress shirt, Like a shirt. So,
not to mention, my mother occasionally commented
that you're at the minister and you're wearing a
skirt above your knees. It wasn't that far above
my knees, but she was horrified. The first time I
went to talk to the bishop about a call to
ministry, you wore a mini skirt to talk to the

(39:05):
bishop. Like, she was just horrified. And again,
it was like an inch. It was not well above my
knees. It was an inch above my knees when I sat
down. Um, no, not very often. Uh, sometimes you
had to think what you were doing or where you
were, because I'm just, you know, my first church,
it was a little country church, and, um, you might
have to shovel snow before, help clear the
sidewalk before the first service, because if I

(39:25):
didn't do it, the 85 year old with a bad heart
would.

>> Loren (39:27):
Right.

So you had to think of, what can I wear? So that
if I needed to do that, I was prepared. So, you
know, you wore your heels. Your heels were in a
bag and you wore your, your warm boots or your,
your flat shoes or, or whatever. But, uh, no,
there hasn't been too much. Sometimes people would
comment. I got a lot of comments when I was
pregnant about, uh, the baby and the. Oh, you're

(39:49):
so much bigger than we saw you last Sunday. Thank
you. Thank you very much. That was a bigger issue.
There were more kind of comments about what I was.
Oh, that's so cute you found something to wear
with your collar. Um, but there was more comments,
I think, when I was pregnant and more padding of
the belly. Oh, the back door. Shake your hand, pat
the belly, walk out. Shake your hand, pat belly,
walk out.

Sorry to bug you. Is there actually maternity
collar shirts?

Well, my, uh, mom made me one like I. Because I
couldn't find one.

They laughed at me when I Asked about that when I
was pregnant, so.

Right.

No.

>> Loren (40:26):
See, And I feel like we're getting in some good
stuff here. I mean, not good stuff, but the real
meat of this conversation. Right? Like this, uh,
this kind of, like, I don't know, policing or. Or
control or. I can't think the right word of
access, maybe that's the word, uh, to women's
bodies, I suppose.

Tab.

>> Loren (40:45):
Do you want to jump in here with anything? And
then.

Martha, I. I do, because what I was sitting here
thinking is, um, I can't wear anything too sexy.
You know, I think about that when I buy clothes.
You know, we're in a tradition where we have a
robe and we have a stole, and so I can wear those
on Sunday. I happen to be in a church right now

(41:09):
where I don't robe, uh, and I don't use my stole.
Throughout my career, I have thought, can I wear
this on Sunday? Can I preach in this? Is this
appropriate to preach in? Is this too sexy to
preach in? And, um, I would imagine that probably
our male counterparts don't think about, is this

(41:32):
too sexy? Am I going to get comments about this?
Does this. Does this, uh, neckline go too low? Uh,
are the sleeves too high? Is the, uh, skirt too
short? You know, Now, I often preach in Jeep, but
I still think too tight.

Yeah, I actually have.

And I don't think the, you know.

Public commentary m. My clothing, my clothing.

Choices, um, and years ago, pretty astonishing.

Over the course of a couple of decades. And, you
know, I've said it a few times already in this
podcast, but I went into all of this so naively,
and I, I have been really surprised by the
permission that people often feel to. To make
comments on. On your weight, on your silhouette,

(42:28):
on the shortness of your skirt, on, um, uh, like,
before I got pregnant, people guessing if I might
be pregnant. Um, the, you know, we started this
conversation around sacrifice and like, I don't
want to sound like I'm sour grape scene at all,
because their ministry has been full of joy and

(42:50):
blessing. And I believe that I have experienced
wonderful things as a woman, specifically in
ministry. But, um, but, yeah, like, I had to deal
with maternity leave policies that, like, weren't,
um, up to date. And so when I got pregnant, like,

(43:13):
in two different dioceses, there was no maternity
leave policy in place that could help me. And I
was just at the mercy of my local congregation in
both cases, which were extremely generous to,
like, help me navigate that for my new family. Um,
I got told that I wasn't. I didn't have enough

(43:35):
experience for jobs that then went to men who had
less or the same amount of experience that I had.
And, like, the Anglican Church is a pretty, um,
closed circle. And I would hear whispers in back
rooms. Well, they didn't want to hire you because
they were worried you were going to get pregnant
and need a maternity leave. And, like, you know,

(44:01):
the. The each of those, like, realities that I've,
um, hit up against have been shocking in their own
way, because I just wasn't anticipating that kind
of thing going into it. And, um. And I think that

(44:21):
as Tabitha was sort of getting at, like, I don't
think that men worry about whether somebody's
gonna think that they look too sexy.

>> Loren (44:32):
No.

I will say the one thing that I have found talking
to male, and it wasn't an Anglican church. I can't
remember the denomination was summerwear. Like, if
they chose to, you know, be in jeans, you know,
even, like, during a work week, if they weren't,
like, is, I wear jeans, nobody comments on me. But

(44:56):
I've talked to male pastors who said that. Or
shorts in the summer, like, gone.

The pastor, in short, interesting.

Like, it's cut. But, I mean, you're right, it's
much less than what we do.
I would say the one thing as I am still single is.
Is dating is very interesting. When you are an
ordained, if you're a guy, you are, like, you're
desirable because women and other men, depending

(45:25):
on your sexual preference, um, think that, you
know, you're in a stable job, you're somebody who
is, you know, faithful as a Christian, um, is
giving, is loving. But when you're a woman and you
are a minister, you're weird. Thank you. And, I
mean, I am anyways. But let's be honest.

I didn't mean you specifically, but it is.

They don't know what to do with it because you are
in a leadership role, which they're not so sure
about. And what does that mean? And how Christian
are you going to be? And I don't know that men,
when they date, when they are ordained, if they
run into that same.

That's interesting. Yeah.

Idea, right?

Yeah.

>> Loren (46:10):
Yeah. Uh, I can't say I've had to navigate that,
thankfully. Cathie, anything from this
conversation that you want to respond to here?

No, it's just. It's interesting that we're not
that far apart in ministry and how long we've been
ordained and engaged in the church. And yet it's
interesting to see how far we've come in such a
very short period of Time, um, that Sheila's
experience just a couple years after Martha and a
couple years after me was so different. Um, and
good. And different in a good way. Different, but
yet some things haven't changed. Yeah, I did a

(46:42):
funeral where most of the family was Catholic when
I was pregnant, and they just. It just blew their
poor heads because they could kind of wrap their
head around a female cleric. But I was like seven
and a half months pregnant doing the funeral, and
they're just like, just one M. Thing too many to
try and get your head around. Um, yeah, yeah, but

(47:02):
as I said, it's, It's. It's interesting. I think
some things, like I've known male colleagues who
get comments about their hair or facial hair,
maybe not about what they're wearing, but, you
know, that beard looks a little scruffy. It
should. Maybe it's time to shave it off or shape
it up a little bit or, you know, looks like you're
getting close to a haircut time. There's been
comments like that, less about what they're
wearing, but have certainly heard them kind of
comments that they do get, those kinds of

(47:22):
comments, which is different. But. Yeah, but
again, it's not. None of us are. Are walking away
unscathed. I did shave. You feel entitled today.

>> Loren (47:30):
So.

Yeah, thanks, Loren. Yeah, noted.

Yeah.

>> Loren (47:35):
Well, um, Cathie, since you're hinting at it here,
let's. Let's talk about that. Where do you see the
most progress for women in the ministry today? And
where do you think change is still needed?

Oh, my goodness. Um, I think there has. There has
been a lot of change in that people are journeying
into ministry. Like both Martha and I came in as
young women, did this kind of straight through,
did our undergraduates, did our master's degree
and went into ministry. I think there's a lot more
information for folks to come in when it makes
sense for them. Lots of folks maybe weren't able
to do the schooling or were, uh, fought the call a

(48:12):
little longer than she and I did. And so folks are
coming to ministry with a lot of life experience
again, bringing who they are and I think are
welcomed and received, uh, wonderfully. Last, um,
couple of ordinations, we've had more women than
men ordained the last couple of ordinations that
we've done here in the church. And Martha and I
are both part of the candidates committee process.

(48:32):
And I think we see more women in that process than
men.

A lot of times in waves, though, like, there are
still waves where, like, we don't see a woman in
those Interviews for like a couple of years. Like
I, uh, comes and goes, you know, Like I, and I
know I've been part of another diocese where we

(48:56):
really had to make a concerted effort to just
plant those seeds for women. Because you have to
be intentional. I think about it in a way that um,
maybe we don't always realize because again, we
kind of get used to the idea that women can do
these things. But we, we do have to keep being

(49:19):
intentional about making sure that that is a
narrative that women actually see as possible.
Sorry, Cathie.

Uh, that's okay.

Didn't mean to interrupt.

No, that's quite all right.
All right. But as I said, we've, we've seen folks
kind of come into ministry and bring who they are.
Again, they're not fitting in some sort of cookie
cutter mold about what clergy should or shouldn't
be like. Because I think there was some pressure
that you could be women in ministry as long as you
kind of look like, kind of did it like how the men
did it.

Yeah.

Or tried to do that as much as possible. That was
kind of your way in. You could be a woman in
ministry, but you to kind of try to do it as much
like the guys as you could. And I, I certainly see
that, um, that pressure being taken off and, and
the guys too, like people in ministry bring who
they are and there's not cookie cutters either.
Um, I think there's a diversity in that. I think

(50:05):
we still need some equity. Uh, you know, you still
oftentimes, if there are part time ministries,
it's women being ex, Leading them, being expected
to take them regardless of what their situation is
at home. You still see women kind of accepting
those kinds of roles and not pushing for a full
time or um, some of those bigger parishes. Um,
Martha has one of the large kind of quote unquote,

(50:27):
cardinal parishes in the diocese. Um, but that's
not been reflected in some of the other large
parishes. Um, many of us, I'm quite happy in the
parishes that I'm in, but it should be a person's
choice about what kind of ministry they feel
called to. And you still see, um, and not just in
our diocese, but in other dioceses as well. Like

(50:47):
there's still that stained glass ceiling. People
can, can go so far and, and you, you see some
exceptions, but for the most part it's still men
in a lot of those traditional kind of big
parishes. Um, I kind of wish they could see what
you've done in, at St. George's and, and the
ministry and the way that's changed and evolved
over the years to realize that it's, it's a good

(51:08):
thing to kind of open up understanding of what
ministry could look like. Because I think the, uh,
ministry that St. George's has now is very
different than it did 10 or 15 years ago. And
that's a good thing, that everything continues to
change and evolve, that we bring who we are to
ministry and so to find ways, because it's, it's
tough. A lot of. And a lot of the women who are in
process are having to do this part time because

(51:29):
they still have families at home where they're
still supporting, uh, supporting the family
income. And it's hard. And so it's taking them a
lot longer because they're having to do this part
time as well.

>> Loren (51:38):
Yeah. Sheila, anything to add there?

Yeah, uh, like I would say that oftentimes women
do come in a little bit later after they've raised
their family because they may have heard a call at
some point. But you're right, either the trying to
get back to school thing doesn't work, or taking
the time off or, you know, just family
responsibilities means that they do go into it a

(52:01):
little bit later. I would say that, uh. Yeah, you
definitely, you definitely do see that happening a
little bit. But yeah, at the same time, I would
say, interestingly enough, both of the churches
that I have been a rector at, I think they
purposely hired me because I'm a woman, because
they had had females in leadership, one of them

(52:23):
for a long time. In fact, I don't think they can
really remember what it was like having a guy in
charge. And so, you know, and I think that's
important. Important then because I think part of
it isn't just the leadership of the diocese of the
church. It is the people in the pews. Right. It is
helping them. Because I know other churches that

(52:43):
would, yeah, really struggle with, still at this
day and age, having a woman. They do it. But there
would be. They'd have a few more struggles.
Whereas, you know, I was really blessed in the
churches that I was in that they had had, yeah,
great women in leadership for a long time who led
them extremely well and created just phenomenal

(53:05):
environments, did so much around things that,
yeah, they were, um, more than happy to, uh, have
another woman come in.

>> Loren (53:13):
Yeah.
Well, I gotta ask one more hard question here, and
I suppose it's hard because I'm kind of nervous to
hear the answers. So what impact have male
colleagues had on your journey in ministry? And
how can men be stronger allies? So, um, Martha,
you want to go that first?

Um, I've been really lucky to um, have a lot of
really great male colleagues who openly define as
feminists. I've had a number of male colleagues
and associates here at St. George's um, you know,
people who essentially report to me. I mean my

(54:00):
current colleague, um, is a co rector, but my
previous male colleagues reported to me. And um,
and they made a really like. They were extremely
clear about being happy about that. And um, they
were extremely clear in their messaging to the
congregation and to people who might be um,

(54:24):
tempted to come to them thinking that they were
the person in authority to say actually she's the
boss. Um, and, and like kind of delight in that
because they were people who were just fiercely
ah, committed to feminism, um, in just a really
like natural sort of way. It was, it's been really

(54:48):
lovely. And, and I think that that does make a big
difference. I think that um, I think that's what
male colleagues can do as allies. I will say that.
And I think it takes a while to move this dial. I
think that um, the Anglican Church of Canada as a

(55:09):
whole is probably still locked a little bit in
tokenism, um, in sort of electing women to
positions of higher power in the church or you
know, having women in um, different places of
authority in the church and then patting
themselves on the back and thinking that the job

(55:29):
of uh, equality is accomplished and it's not like
it is an ongoing uh, sort of um, need to again
insist that women get to be um, leaders and get to

(55:52):
be judged as leaders as people and as people who
bring um, their own unique set of gifts to the
table as people. Um, like don't assume that just
because it's a woman that therefore they're
maternal and nurturing and you know, going to be a

(56:14):
certain kind of leader. I know lots of hard
headed, calculating um, women who uh, which is
great. Like you know, there's not like one way of
being a female leader. There's not just one soft,
gentle way of being a female leader. Uh, so I
think the more that men can just be on board with

(56:37):
recognizing who we are as people, the more that
we're going to get past that tokenism.

>> Loren (56:43):
Yeah. Cathie, how about you?

It has come a long way. There have been some
wonderful male colleagues that I worked with,
whether it was my rector when I was a curate, kind
of making sure that I wasn't seen as less than,
that we were equals and that there were
opportunities given to me because I was the curate
that needed those opportunities. Not just because
I was the new young curate. Um, and there were

(57:08):
occasions and I didn't mind if somebody needed a
token female at the table. I was quite happy to be
there because there weren't very many of us around
it those days, but to make sure they were making
sure that we were represented. So when there was
a, uh, diocesan service like it in those early
days, it was a little bit of tokenism. But I, you
know, I do it because we needed to see it, we
needed to be a part of it, and we needed to see
it.

That's true.

And some of that became less than. Like, it's.
It's not as necessary because there's enough women
in ministry that they, you know, we need six
people to do a service, and here are the six
people.

Who are doing it.

Um. Uh, so I think more and more of that have had
some. I've worked with. I, uh, was original dean,
which means you kind of chair some local clergy
meetings. I worked very well with the male
archdeacons, and we kind of divvied up. These are
your skills, These are mine. And there was a total
respect for what I could bring to the table and
what they needed from that role. And so it's been

(57:58):
lovely. And I think people were less concerned in
the early days. Like, we have to watch what we say
now. No, you just treat everybody with the dignity
and respect and mind your P's and Q's. Um, it
doesn't matter whether it's me or your experienced
male cleric. So I think a lot in those early days,
there were folks who kind of made sure we were
pushed a little bit to the front to make sure we
were seen and included. And I think that's less

(58:20):
and less necessary. Um, in Niagara, anyway. Um,
there are other places where you still need. You
need that. A little bit of that tokenism, because
that. That sense of, of course they've got gifts
to bring to the table. Of course we'd include
them. Of course we'd ask. Isn't the default, um,
you know, when we see that, especially when you're
doing stuff, uh, when you have opportunities to do
stuff on a national level. I am always very

(58:42):
grateful for the diocese that I work in and for
the way that what I bring to the table is
respected and valued. Because I still see that in
colleagues that. That is not the case. Female
colleagues, if that is not the case. So there's.
There's work to work to be done. Um, but it's come
a long way from where it was.

>> Loren (58:59):
Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Loren (59:01):
Thanks for sharing that.
Uh, Sheila, how about. How about you?

Yeah. Ah, I have been, uh. Actually, uh, I have
found the male colleagues, um, since I've been
ordained pretty much across the board. Really.
Good. Very. And so I worked in the retail sector
and including in management for many years before
I got here. And that was a nightmare there. I was

(59:28):
not treated in any way, shape or form as though I
had a brain, as though I had anything to
contribute. In fact, the last job I had, where I
was manager, I was eventually let go for no
reason, which means they offered me a lot of
money. And I had already decided I wanted to go
into the ministry. So I was good with that. So
they hired another guy right after me, who was a

(59:48):
man, um, and then sadly, he died about five years
later, and they discovered he'd been bilking them
for tens of thousands of dollars for years. And I
thought, well, isn't it a good thing you hired a
guy? Because that's. But I would say that, um, in
our diocese, and I have colleagues in other

(01:00:09):
dioceses, and yeah, sometimes there is definite
struggles, and I've. I've colleagues who are, like
me, archdeacons, so they're middle management, um,
who still struggle with some of the male
colleagues that they have, I think. But I. I find
I was ordained with two other, um, male clerics,

(01:00:30):
and we are friends this day. They have my back
110%. I think they're great for that. I think that
tokenism does need to go out the door. I think
that our. Our bishop, being a woman, I think
having her in, uh, in the House of Bishops, which
is all the bishops from across Canada getting

(01:00:50):
together, she is a very strong voice for that, for
being a leader, for somebody who has ideas, who
takes on, um, roles in leadership. And I think
that that has been a very good thing for the House
of Bishops as a whole to kind of take note of and
to start to make sure. Because it is predominantly

(01:01:11):
male.

>> Loren (01:01:12):
Yeah.

>> Sheila Van Zandwyck (01:01:13):
Like decidedly dominantly male. So we need more
female voices up in that. Up in that, uh, level
to, uh, to continue.

>> Tabitha Johnson (01:01:24):
Yeah.

The important work. And I think, you know that
there are, um. Yeah, there. There are always going
to be some men who are either intimidated by you
or just don't know how to deal with you. But I
think for the most, what I've noticed in Niagara
is that they're. They're pretty good. They're
solidly on board with women in ministry and in

(01:01:46):
leadership and see us as being a huge asset. In no
way. They see us other ways.

>> Loren (01:01:57):
And I'm looking at the time and for sake of time,
we should roll on into some. Some closing
questions here.
Let me. Let me take a moment. Just to reintroduce
for our guests who are. Who we're talking to. We
have the Venerable Sheila Van Zandwyck. I just
want to say the venerable.

Again, frankly, Sheila, I wanted on a T shirt. I
haven't been able to get that yet.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:20):
Ah, yeah, you should.

>> Loren (01:02:22):
Uh, we have the Reverend to. Cannon, Kate. Oh, my
goodness. The Reverend Cannon. Catherine Morgan.
It's the cut and the cut going together that's
killing me. So my apologies. We have the Reverend
Canon Martha Chitarnik, and unfortunately, due to
technical errors, no longer with us, the Reverend
Tabitha Johnson, who has been with us in spirit.

Yeah, I'm sure she's with us in spirit.

>> Loren (01:02:43):
Yeah, she's with us in spirit. So, uh, these
closing questions that are loosely based on our
regular set of closing questions, which, uh,
inspired by Martha, I've kind of tweaked these for
our custom conversation here. So these, uh, are
kind of meant to be quick hitters.
So if you became the first female pope, what is
your first official act? Cathie?

>> Cathie Morgan (01:03:08):
No, because I certainly do not aspire to any kind
of role like that. I don't know. I think just, uh,
an, uh, equality to. To. To be able to find a way
to kind of. To build some. A little bit more
equality into their ministry. I know in some
pockets of the world that that's not an issue,
but. But to kind of raise up so that both that

(01:03:29):
everybody's gifts and everybody's called to
ministry and that what everybody brings to the
table that God has given them is valued and
respected and honored. Um, I think that would be.
Not that that's something you can kind of
institute or wave a magic wand, but to see that
what everybody brings to the table, the gifts that
they've been given, are equally respected and
valued and appreciated.

>> Loren (01:03:49):
Yeah. Uh, Sheila, how about you?

Um, not just to ordain women that would be in
there too, but also to allow priests to marry.
I've always found that in the Catholic Church, um,
that. That is just one of the things that I see no
reason for, nor do I find it helpful. I think that
being in a loving relationship gives your ministry

(01:04:14):
great strength. I mean, yeah, I do it singly, and,
uh, I often wish I wasn't. It is the reality of my
life. But there are times when I think, boy, it'd
be great to come home to a partner who was there
for me. Right. So definitely allowing them to get
married. Have women, um, priests and they can have
all the kids they want if that's what they like to

(01:04:35):
do. And apparently they do.

>> Loren (01:04:38):
Cool. Uh, Martha, how about you?

Well, just for the sake of adding to the list of
things we're going to do, I would implement equal
marriage.

>> Loren (01:04:47):
Okay, There you go. There you go. Okay.
Uh, what gives you hope for the next generation of
women called into ministry? Let me start calling
names here.

I think, uh, for me, it isn't necessarily just in
ministry. I think what gives me hope is to see how
our society is getting better about being
intentional in helping young women be whatever

(01:05:30):
they want to be. So helping them see themselves as
a soccer player, as a professional hockey player,
as, um, a computer tech guru, as a NASA scientist,
as a priest, as whatever they want to, kind of.
Because there are certain industries that have

(01:05:53):
been very, um, male focused that, you know, it
gives me hope to see, um, you know, the. The world
kind of working to try and give women this insight
that they're. They have all these fabulous gifts.
And. And my hope would be that the church also
creates that opportunity and awareness for, for

(01:06:14):
young women as well.

>> Loren (01:06:16):
Okay, well, Tabitha, we have Tabitha back here.
So, Tabitha, what gives you hope? What gives you
hope for the next generation of women in ministry?

Oh, what gives me hope for the next generation of
ministry? I mean, women, uh, are so. I see so many
young clergy women who are so eager and so
enthusiastic. And we all know that the church as
an institution and in society is facing incredible
challenges right now. And a lot of us are

(01:06:48):
frustrated and wondering what's next? And of
course, none of us know what, what's next? And,
uh, what's that going to look like? But I see
young clergy women who are so excited about being
three, so enthusiastic about what the future is,
and, and they make me excited and they make me

(01:07:09):
eager about what possibilities are. I see women
who are dreaming, uh, new dreams for the church.
And it is so refreshing. It's so refreshing to
hear. Here's what I love about the church. Here's
what I'm dreaming about the church. Here's where I
see God taking us. Instead of, you know, uh,

(01:07:31):
these. These ideas of we don't know what's going
to happen, the church is dying, um, you know,
everything that's wrong with the institution. And
of course, there is a reckoning that is happening
right now. It's a reckoning that's been coming for
a long time, and it's completely appropriate. And
at the same time, it's like a song, right? Where

(01:07:52):
there's lament and there's praise and there's
celebration and there's joy, and it's all mixed up
together. Um, and so, um, I think that is a
wonderful thing about young women who are still
seeking call in all of these challenges that we're

(01:08:12):
facing. And so hopeful and so refreshing.

>> Loren (01:08:18):
Yeah, great answer. Great answer, Martha. Cathie.

Yeah, Um, I feel hopeful when I look at my
daughter. Um, I feel hopeful with just a twinge of
a downer in it as well. But, um, I, I really
respect how much, like, she and her friends don't

(01:08:44):
take for granted the rights that they have, don't
take for granted the, um, the opportunities that
they have. They do live in a time and place,
unfortunately, where they see women's rights
rolled back, um, in different parts of the world
in a pretty alarming way. But. So that's the, the

(01:09:08):
downer part. But the up part of that is like, just
putting fire in their bellies that, like, they
want to continue to fight for this. Like, this
fight is worth it. It's worth, um, matters. It
gives us in the church such a, ah, more holistic

(01:09:29):
picture of who God is and how God works. Um, and
in the world, it. And in the church, it just means
that, like, we get so many more gifts brought to
the table. So let's continue to, like, let's not
sit back and think this is one and done. It's not.
It's not one and done. We have to keep speaking

(01:09:50):
up. We have to keep fighting. We have to keep
saying this matters. And I just love looking to
her and her friends and seeing that, that fight in
them, like, they know it. They know this is worth
it.

>> Loren (01:10:05):
Yeah. Thank you, Cathie.

We're at a point in the end, well, and we've hit
this point several times in the last 20 years,
that we can't be doing things the way we've always
done things. And so I think when you, especially
when you've got women who have, um, brought some
life experience, uh, it'd be greater if we had
more young women going into college. Wouldn't it
be great, Martha, not to be still some of the
younger women in the room?

I know, I know. Two decades later. My God.

It's been too long. It's been too long.

But it does allow me to feel like I'm drinking
from the fountain of youth, I will say, but, like,
that's the, that's the only good thing about it.

Go ahead, Cathie.

Um, but as I said, we can't be doing things the
way we've always done that. We need to be finding
new Ways of engaging new partnerships, new ways of
engaging our communities. And I think it's really
wonderful that, uh, as women are coming into
ministry, they're bringing the skills and the, the
outside of the box thinking and the creativity
that there's ways that we can honor where we've
come from. But there are new ways and different

(01:11:04):
ways of moving forward. And I think women bring a
lot of those gifts. We've had to fight some of
those battles. We've had to look, do things kind
of outside of the box to get to where we are. And
so it would be lovely. Continue to see women in
ministry kind of bringing their authentic selves
and, you know, let's try it this way and let's do
it this way and bringing some of that passion and
some of that joy and some of that, you know, we're

(01:11:26):
being faithful to who God has called us to be. So
let's just get down to it and let's. It might not
look the way it's always been, but it's still
faithful. It's still of God, and it's still kind
of spreading the good news, but we're just going
to do it a little different way. And so to be able
to encourage people to keep bringing those gifts
and that ministry and that passion. Um, because
you're right. After, you know, Tabitha, after a
while, you do kind of get curmudgeony. I've been

(01:11:46):
ordained long enough. I feel like cranky person in
the back of the room sometimes. But it is so
lovely. People who still have that joy and that
excitement, you're like, nah, just wait till the
charge gets all of them. But it's, it's, it's
catching and it's. And it gives me. It means that
I don't always have to be the cranky one in the
back room while in my day. But it's, but it's
lovely to see that and to see people, um, honoring

(01:12:09):
that and welcoming that instead of kind of
begrudgingly accepting it. But to really welcome
that, we need to be doing things in new ways. And
that's part of how we're.

We're.

We're bringing that fresh air and that new energy
into the church is with people who bring who they
are authentically, um, into ministry and to
celebrate that. And I think we're going to see.
Continue to see more and more of that as we
continue to adapt and adjust moving forward.

>> Loren (01:12:34):
Awesome. Okay, well, uh, Tabitha, I got to give
you this one because this is the most important
question, and you weren't here for it. If you were
the first female pope, what is your first official
act?

Oh, to allow queer clergy.

>> Loren (01:12:48):
Okay, she's concise at least, right?

To allow queer. Queer clergy. You know, uh, I am
in a denomination that has not completely moved
past, uh, some of the struggles of the past, but I
am in a church. You know, our polity is such that

(01:13:13):
each congregation gets to choose what they want to
do whatever, uh, the general church decide. And so
the general church is open and affirming that we
still have congregations that are not. But I
happen to be in a congregation that is unabashedly
open and affirming, says, you know, all of God's

(01:13:34):
people have right not just to exist, but to feel
accepted and to know they are beloved by God. And
by golly, when they walk through these doors of
this church, they are going to feel that, if
nothing else, they are going to feel accepted and
loved by God. And so to be in a place where we

(01:13:55):
deny the gifts that queer clergy bring, I, uh,
think is a shame and I think is a sin of the
church. Uh, not just the Catholic Church, but all
institutions that do so. Uh, and so, um, even
before saying women should be clergy, which you

(01:14:15):
think maybe that would be first on my list. Uh, m
a queer folks, uh, who are involved in loving
relationships because we already know they're a
queer clergy. And classic church, right?

>> Loren (01:14:31):
M. Um.

And so they can be open and be who they are and
say, this is who I am. I'm God's beloved and I
have a call and I'm going to live into it. Why
can't we be in a place where, ah, that happens?
Uh, unfortunately, it's not just a Catholic. Not
just a Catholic thing. But if I were pope, by
golly, I would do a lot of things, but that would

(01:14:55):
be one of them.

>> Loren (01:14:57):
Well, that's why I always limit it in the
traditional question of one day because, you know,
we want more of the conversation than just what
you do in Pope. But thank you, thank you for
sharing. Uh, thank you all for this conversation.
I really appreciate, uh, everyone's patience and,
uh, you know, getting all this together is, uh, an
important conversation. I hope it's been helpful

(01:15:17):
for our listeners, Martha. Uh, and I, we always
have a tradition. We leave people with a word of
peace. Uh, so may God peace be with you all.

Also with you, Loren.

>> Loren (01:15:36):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do

(01:15:58):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.

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