November 2, 2024 • 44 mins
What if the core problem in most humans these days isn't that we think too highly of ourselves, but rather that we live with an underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation, and disillusionment? In this episode, Chuck DeGroat joins the pod to talk about his book Healing What's Within and the concept of Internal Family Systems theory. Sharing from his background as a therapist and pastor, DeGroat explains the importance of befriending our different parts and becoming aware of how they show up in different situations. DeGroat emphasizes the significance of connecting with our true selves and living from that core. Exploring the classic "fall" narrative in Genesis 3, DeGroat proposes the theological concept of a primal wound and the importance of understanding the underlying story and biography behind harmful behavior. He emphasizes the need for pastors and church leaders to have support groups and close friendships to navigate the challenges they face.
Chuck DeGroat is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the clinical mental health counseling program. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, author, retreat leader speaker, and faculty member with the Soul Care Institute. As a therapist, he specializes in navigating issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral (and leadership) health, and doubt and dark nights on the faith journey. He trains clergy in handling issues of abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and planter assessments, and facilitates church consultations and investigations of abuse. Before transitioning to training and forming pastors, Chuck served as a pastor in Orlando and San Francisco. He and his wife, Sara, have been married for 30 years and have two adult daughters.
Episodes Referenced:
Chuck DeGroat: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/chuck-degroat-on-when-narcissism-comes-to-church/
Yolanda Solomon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/solomon/
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Chuck DeGroat to
the program. Chuck is a professor
of pastoral care and Christian spirituality
at Western Theological Seminary in Holland,
Michigan, where he also serves as the founding
executive director of the Clinical Mental Health
Counseling Program. He is a licensed
(01:06):
therapist, spiritual director, author,
retreat leader, speaker, and faculty
member with the Soul Care Institute.
As a therapist, he specializes in navigating
issues of abuse and trauma,
pastoral and leadership, Health and Doubt,
and Dark nights on the faith Journey.
He trains clergy in handling issues of
(01:29):
abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and
planter assessments, and facilitates church
consultations and investigations of
abuse. Before transitioning to
training and forming pastors, Chuck
served as a pastor in Orlando and
San Francisco. He and his wife Sarah have been
married for 30 years and have two
(01:51):
adult daughters. A, uh,
reminder, before we start today's conversation, please
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha
and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
ah.com
(02:14):
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
of the church.
>> Chuck (02:33):
Okay.
>> Loren (02:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Jr. And today I'm pleased to be welcoming
Chuck De Groat. And I'm sorry, Chuck, did he want, like, titles
or.
>> Chuck (02:42):
No, no, Chuck is great.
>> Loren (02:45):
Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. You've been on the show before.
But just share, if you would, briefly, just about your, your
background and uh, what, what's,
what's going on with you today?
>> Chuck (02:55):
Yeah, I, uh, I was in,
uh. Well, I'm originally from Long Island Island, New
York, um, by way of Iowa,
Chicago, Florida, San Francisco, and now West
Michigan. I was a pastor in Orlando
and in San Francisco and
started some clinical counseling centers in those
places. And then I've been, ah, a faculty member at
(03:17):
a seminary in West Michigan, Western Theological Seminary for the
last 11 years where I, um, lead a clinical
counseling program here and so, yeah, it's been a
pretty full life. And I'm a therapist, I'm a pastor as
well as a therapist. So I've been practicing as a
therapist for 25 years as well.
>> Loren (03:35):
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And then,
uh, you're, you're good at this. And I could probably use some of
this later on after we wrap some spiritual
practices that uh, are rec. You like to do or
find meaningful.
>> Chuck (03:48):
Well, um, I
think at the top of the list is
contemplative, uh, prayer, silent prayer.
M. Um, I grew up in a tradition
where, uh, prayer was wrapped around a lot of
words. And so, um, for me
now, silence, uh, a more
(04:08):
imaginative space that I go
into. Um, those are important practices.
Breathing, connecting to my body. So very
embodied. Contemplative prayer practice is kind of right at
the top of my list. But you know, I love, I
love engaging nature walks in nature walking
labyrinths.
>> Loren (04:26):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (04:27):
Um, and things like that too.
>> Loren (04:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome for sharing. Thanks you. Thank you for
sharing that. Well, we're kind of jumping right into it
because Chuck has a heart out and a, ah,
lot of content actually to talk about in his book.
Chuck's the author of the book Healing
what's Within. You'll have to give the subtitle, but
when does this book come out, Chuck? As a recording?
>> Chuck (04:49):
October 8th of 24.
>> Loren (04:52):
Okay. So, uh, I can't remember when this is scheduled there, but
so be on the lookout. I'm sure it'll be
available for pre order regardless. Right?
>> Chuck (05:00):
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
>> Loren (05:02):
So whether it's uh, whether it's pre October or post
October, be on lookout for it. But I
think so. And I had the, I had the
privilege, Chuck, to hear you when you spoke at
Steve, uh, Cust's conference. Yeah, that was like a year
ago.
>> Chuck (05:17):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Loren (05:18):
In the Denver metro. And you touched on some of these themes.
But talk a little bit about
like, I hate to say what inspired the book, but really like
how this coalesced into a book.
>> Chuck (05:30):
Yeah, well, I had done some work before
this on narcissism in the church and
um, you know, that conversation,
there's a lot that goes into that. Narcissism, um, and
spiritual abuse in the church, uh, is
pretty fraught territory and
um, you encounter people in a lot of
pain. And I had my own experience many years ago
(05:52):
too. And so as I thought about what
might be next, I really wanted to focus on
the healing process. I didn't want to do like a
narcissism book. 2.0 or something like that.
But, you know, now when we experience
things that are hard and that we can't really
control, like events that happen to us,
um, maybe a desire for justice that we just can't
(06:14):
get, like, so what do we do then? And how do we do the
healing work with within? One of the things we know about
trauma is that trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens
within.
>> Loren (06:24):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (06:24):
The imprint that's left behind. And so
this is really a book that invites people to do that deep
inner work, but, um, also framed
up through three questions from
Genesis Chapter three. So I really wanted to
also, uh, invite people to hear God's
curious and compassionate questions, um,
(06:45):
with a different ear than they might have heard them with
before, perhaps if they'd grown up in traditions
where God was particularly angry in
Genesis Chapter three. And, um.
>> Loren (06:56):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (06:56):
And so I really wanted to sort of frame
those in a compassionate way to say, you know, in the
midst of your pain, your trauma, experiences of injustice,
abuse, God shows up with kindness and
compassion.
>> Loren (07:10):
Why don't you share a little bit about. Because.
Why don't you share a little about Internal family systems theory? Because I
think that certainly has a key
role, that concept or framework within the book. Why
don't you explain that a little bit for our listeners? Uh, we might reference.
>> Chuck (07:24):
Yeah, there's one particular chapter. I think it's like chapter seven,
six, five. I can't remember.
>> Loren (07:30):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (07:30):
Um, where in fact, I even start out with,
um, the movie Inside Out. The first one. I don't think when
I submitted my manuscript, I knew a second one was coming out.
But, uh.
>> Loren (07:39):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (07:40):
Yeah, I found Internal Family Systems 20 years
ago now, um, on a VHS tape
at a school where I was doing some teaching. And it blew
my mind. Because the real
simple way of talking about it is we all have parts.
Which is to say we, uh, wake up in the morning and
part of us wants to lay in bed. And another part wants to get
(08:01):
going. And another part says, I'm not even sure I want to
be in this world anymore. And
we're complex, we're multifaceted. And I
think the reality is, is because of the
pain of our lives, the experiences that we've had, there
are different parts of us that show up in different ways at
different times. And, you know, there's. There's probably a version
(08:22):
of me that shows up to something like this that tend. Wants to
do well. You know, wants to. Wants Loren
to appreciate, you know, how articulate
or articulate. See, I can't even say the Word I am,
um, and ah, how much I have to offer.
>> Loren (08:36):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (08:37):
Um, and other parts of me that might be sort
of hiding the background that carry shame or
anxiety or. And we all live like
this, we end up living pretty divided lives.
And um, the work of internal family systems
is really about uh, being deeply
connected to our true selves, um,
(08:58):
and living from that core and anchored place
well, remaining well, continuing
to have access to these other different parts of us
that tend uh, to go off on their own but
really need a lot of love and care, uh, in the
process. And so part of what I introduced folks
to in this is a bit of that work of befriending
(09:18):
the different parts of us that sometimes uh,
take over, sometimes perfectionistic, sometimes are angry,
sometimes we're ashamed, um,
and uh, with a lot of kindness and hospitality
within.
>> Loren (09:32):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And
um, I'm just thinking again, like, I think I said this in my email to you
that this is in many ways like a book that I read that I found so
helpful for me and that's why I wanted to talk to you and I'm hoping
it's helpful for our listeners as well.
Um, but I'm just thinking about like
the parts like I was at a church group and I've been really trying
(09:53):
to do some like parts work myself
and I was in a group where I felt like I was.
I'm trying to be aware of like again how my parts show up. So like
in this group, like I felt like, oh, I'm talking too much and that
part is being too much. And then I talked to my
wife and she's like, hey, you didn't say enough.
So it's just being aware of those
(10:13):
parts, right? Yes. Is a learning endeavor.
>> Chuck (10:16):
Yeah, it is. And you know,
I think this is part of growing in self awareness, you know
that as you become more aware of how you show up in
different times in different places. Like someone reflected
back to me recently that they sensed that I was a bit
anxious and that I was, that I, I was coming off
as like the funny guy. I was trying to be the funny guy. And I
thought, oh, that's a really old story in my body.
(10:39):
Like that, that was one of the ways that I used to cope growing up
on Long Island, New York, where I grew up in the midst of the
anxiety and tumultuousness I grew
up in. So I'd keep it light, I'll keep it
funny. And, and so how do I
become more aware of that part of me that's okay to
Be funny. Mhm. But I also want to
be aware of when it's a way of coping
(11:01):
because of stress and anxiety and other things.
>> Loren (11:05):
So you mentioned the
befriending of our
parts in the book, befriending our Suffering.
I think that's been one of the most intriguing
aspects of IFS internal family systems
theory as I've learned it. Um, but,
uh, I'm thinking about, I'm not going to say my parts,
right. But I'm going to think about my parts and I think about
(11:27):
like, it was a real revelation to
me to think about some of
these parts that are behaving in ways that are
not super helpful for me. Right. Moving forward
and then learning, like, hey, like those
parts can actually like really be helpful
and just about figuring it out. So like,
(11:47):
I want to really contextualize this
because again, this is a, this is a podcast for
pastors and church leaders. So I want to contextualize
it to that context and space.
And I remember like having this
conversation with another guest. But like,
I guess I'll speak somewhat general generally
(12:08):
for myself. Like, I can imagine
in a church context where I have a part
that's as a pastor
that it's hard to think of that part as helpful
when it's constantly behaving in an unhelpful ways.
Like it's like, oh, you know, the budget is
screwed and, um, you know, everybody hates you or
(12:29):
whatever. Or, you know, there's a
congregant that really brings up some memories
of a difficult relationship. Right.
>> Chuck (12:40):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think that all we
can do is sort of control what's going on in us and be aware of
what's going on in us, you know, and then, and you know, if
you do have some leadership capacity with
others, there's a way that, uh, I think if you're doing your
own work, that you can lean in and begin to invite others to
become more aware. But the reality
is, like when you, when you have a group of people come around
(13:03):
a table, well, if my funny guy is showing up
and her angry side is
showing up, and his, you know, quiet, passive
side, you know, um, it
might be a disaster of a meeting. Um,
it's, it's always best when we can bring the fullness of
ourselves to a meeting. And so
learning this, doing this work and learning this language as a kind
(13:25):
of shorthand so that we can show up more
fully is really important, I think.
And the reality is we have lots of different ways of,
of coping. Um, our parts are
really in many respects Ways of
coping, uh, in the m. In the midst of our
anxiety and pain and things like that. And if
we can become more aware of not
(13:47):
only how we're showing up in the present moment, but what the roots are. Like, how
did I. How did that start? You know,
it's. That could be really helpful.
>> Loren (13:55):
Yeah. I did something in CPE where I had
a clinical, uh, pastoral education for our
listeners, where I had to write, like, a. A narrative.
Foundational narrative or something like that. And again, it was
something. When I thought about
that narrative in the context of
ifs, like, my parts, I was like, holy smokes.
(14:16):
Like, that's. It's all right there.
>> Chuck (14:18):
Yeah.
>> Loren (14:18):
Uh, and then talking to one of my good friends who is well
trained in ifs. Like, he similarly, like, has a
story that he's kind of recognized that
really has those parts playing
different roles. So it is. It is. Boy, it's
powerful.
>> Chuck (14:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (14:35):
I don't want to get too far into this to not talk
about Genesis 3, those three questions. So
why don't you just talk through those three questions? Because, man, for me,
they were so holy smokes.
Foundational or impactful?
>> Chuck (14:48):
Ah, yeah. It's
a lot of people, I think, experience. This is a different way of
engaging, um, God or being.
Being, um, engaged by God in Genesis chapter three. And
for me, this goes back a long, long time ago,
early 2000s, where I was leading some retreats.
And it struck me that God's where are
(15:08):
you? Was, um, maybe not as angry as I'd
heard it before. You know, people know. Most
people know the backstory of Genesis 3. This
slithering serpent sort of sidles up to
Adam and Eve and says, did God really say that you must not
eat from the tree? And really what the serpent is doing
is it's causing, um, doubt or
questions about God's goodness, about Adam and
(15:30):
Eve's enoughness. It's just raising lots of
questions. And Adam and Eve are left with
this big, big question of, like, are we going
to have to grasp for that fruit in order
to, um, fill ourselves in a
way that maybe God hadn't filled us or
to meet needs that maybe God hadn't met. Like, uh, in the midst
(15:51):
of that question, are we enough? They go ahead
and grasp. And of course, they're awakened to their own
nakedness. They feel exposed, and so
they're ashamed and they hide and they sew fig leaves.
Most people know that part of the story. It's the next part
where God is walking in the cool the day, which is
really interesting because he has commentators
(16:11):
really wrestle with what's going on there. But the reality is that God was
probably walking during the part of the day when
the sun had gone down, when it was cooler, probably
during the time of the day, at least the way the story goes.
Um, that God and Adam and Eve would have taken
a walk. I think that's. That's, you know, whoever is narrating
the story is trying to tell something of a story like that. Like,
(16:31):
they were friends in the garden. And now God's walking in the
garden, like, where did you go? I
miss you. And that's what struck me is
like, God's, where are you? In fact, the word where is the
first word of the book of Lamentations. It's a word of
heartbreak. It's like a broken friend. Where
are you? Um, I remember I got lost a number of
(16:51):
years ago in the woods. And, you know, my dad was crying
out, where are you, son? Where are you? Um,
and so that's so
different. Like, if you grew up in a tradition where God was
angry and it was like a where the hell are you?
Um, who told you? So. So where are you?
Is a kind question, and it's a question that invites us to
(17:12):
come out of hiding. Um, to become aware
of how we're hiding and the fig leaves that we've
sown.
>> Loren (17:18):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (17:19):
Um, we talked a lot about that. The second question, who told
you? Which gets us to reflect on our
stories, like, how did you get here in the first place?
And what story have you been believing about yourself?
And then the third question, have you eaten from the tree? Which is to
say, where have you taken your hunger and thirst?
Um, where have you gone for satisfaction?
(17:39):
And, uh, my sense is
that that takes us to the New Testament and the question that
Jesus asks more than any other question.
And that's, um, what do you
want? What do you long for? You know? And I think
God is asking us, what do you long
for? Wanting us to
get in touch with our deepest desires and deepest
(18:02):
longings.
>> Loren (18:04):
Yeah. It really reminds me of something else you talked about in the book
about that. I think you wrote about
addiction really being about disconnection.
>> Chuck (18:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:14):
Which I think is a powerful, powerful, uh, way to say it.
But I was reminded of the where are you? Like, one of my
previous guests, Yolanda Solomon, I think she
made this exact point that throughout Scripture, that question
is being asked by God, where are you?
And it's such a powerful
reframing to think about. Not as, like, you said,
(18:34):
that angry, where are you? But, hey,
where are You. And I think it does fit with the narrative of
Scripture when we think about.
She, um, referenced another story I hadn't thought about. But certainly the
prodigal son is the most obvious one that comes
to mind. Yeah, I think
the. Who told you? I feel like that really resonates
with the parts. Right?
>> Chuck (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think
as you start listening within, you begin to hear
some different voices. And, um, I don't know about
you. Maybe I do. Maybe people who are listening
right now are like, he hears voices.
Why did Loren invite him on? But I
do think that in any given day,
(19:17):
as I'm listening within, um,
there are parts of me that are like.
They're out ahead of me, and they're like, you've got this.
You can do this. You're well prepared. You're going to be fine. There
are parts of me that are like, oh, no, stay
home today. This isn't going to go
well. Um, I. This morning I taught a
class here at the seminary. And, uh, on some material I
(19:39):
hadn't taught on in a while. And I even told the class, you know,
there's a part of me that comes in kind of excited about
today, um, with a voice of like, isn't this
wonderful that you get to teach on this? And then there's another part of
me that just wanted to kind of crawl into a hole this morning
and not come out. Um, because I have this
sense that, uh, you know, I. Gosh, I
(20:00):
haven't taught on this in a long, long time. And what if I, you
know, what if it doesn't go well? That's, uh, my shame sort
of catching up with me. And there are lots of other different
voices within me at any given time, uh,
that can be critical, that, uh, can be judgmental
of others, that can be grandiose, that can.
That can be beautiful. And so
(20:20):
I. It's always a fun exercise. I mean, people, as you
probably know, are kind of dubious about this until they
start practicing it.
>> Loren (20:27):
Right. It sounds super wonky. Like,
I was reading. I was reading, uh.
Because. What is it? Schwartz's big white cover book. I can't
remember the title.
>> Chuck (20:37):
Is that no Bad Parts or something else?
>> Loren (20:39):
No, I think it was, like, an introduction. I can't remember.
Yeah, it's frankly. It's frankly,
like, boring. Like, I couldn't make it through. It was so boring.
Um, like, I was. I was reading it, like, wanting to read, like, what's,
um, his name? Um. Gosh, who's
the. Who's the family systems rabbi guy that I'M blanking
on.
>> Chuck (20:57):
Oh, Friedman, Friedman.
>> Loren (20:58):
Like I was expecting like Friedman level of just like brilliance and
you know, just humor and dry wit and everything. And it wasn't
quite that, but I was reading that his, his
things about these parts and like what's coming to mind, Chuck, is
like Frank Peretti, like
you know, like these uh,
you know we're. There's just this inherent mistrust
(21:19):
of just anything that sounds different and oh gosh, that might
be bad. Which I guess is a part. Right? Might say almost.
Right?
>> Chuck (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, uh, I think so.
>> Loren (21:29):
But I was thinking of uh, when I'm thinking
about.
When I'm thinking about uh, parts and. Who told
you. I can't remember if you write about this in the
book, but I'm thinking of. And I'm blanking on titles
right now, I think. Is it Ashley Cook,
uh, who co wrote a book on ifs from a Christian
(21:49):
perspective?
>> Chuck (21:50):
Oh, Allison Cook.
>> Loren (21:51):
Allison Cook, yes. And they talk about, I can't remember the
co author but they talk about like the spirit led self.
>> Chuck (21:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (21:57):
So talk a little bit if you can. Just about. I don't
know, I don't know if you use similar phraseology or naming. Uh,
but how do you know?
>> Chuck (22:05):
Like what?
>> Loren (22:05):
Because again, just to be transparent,
because there was a, there was a time for me where I like, I
could say like hey, I don't think that's the voice of truth. But I
don't. Mhm. I don't know if I can hear like the
voice of truth. Right.
>> Chuck (22:18):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it goes by
various names. You know, even in the Bible, Paul talks about the
old self and the new self, you know, and in the Christian tradition
it's become the true self. Um, Allison and
Kim Miller talk about it as the spirit
led self. However you describe it, what they're saying
is this is the core of you. Um, this is the
(22:39):
image bearing core where God dwells. This
is you when you're anchored and rooted, you know,
in that Ephesians 3 kind of sense.
>> Loren (22:47):
Mhm.
>> Chuck (22:48):
Um, that's your adult self and that we all
have a ah, capacity to
connect to our adult cells and live from our adult cells. But
the reality is, is that because of what happens to us
and what we experience in life, that we live out of
these, these other cells that um, that are
just trying to cope frantically oftentimes in the world.
(23:08):
Right. And so maybe it's a perfectionist you or a critic
you or a workaholic
you, um, maybe it's a self
sabotaging you, you Know, but there's a constellation.
I remember when I was doing my IFS work.
I started back in 2009,
2010, something like that, with Jay early out in San
Francisco. And, uh, I remember
(23:30):
calling my wife one day after a session, and I was like, I'm up to
14. Um, but the
idea being that the true self is that
anchored self, where you are the
conductor of the orchestra, you create a place at the table for
all the other selves around the self to come and sit and
be known and seen. And when we're,
(23:51):
uh, when we're fragmented, when we're
frazzled, when we're overwhelmed, when we're exhausted, it's
like some of these other selves get out ahead of us and m.
You know, perfectionistic me drives the
train, or self sabotaging me drives
the bus, or, you know, and that's
what we have to begin to notice is like, um, in any given
(24:11):
day, at any given moment, like, for me, even before our time,
I'm asking myself, where are you, Chuck? You
know, because I want to make sure that I'm here,
sitting in this chair, and it's not like some performative
version of me or maybe some overwhelmed and ashamed
part of me that, you know, that I'm. I'm here and
I'm present in my body and ready to talk to
(24:31):
you.
>> Loren (24:32):
Yeah, let's stay on that theme, because I wanted to talk
about. I'm going to try to find the quote here
on page 80. I thought this
was, frankly. I mean, again,
I grew up very conservative, so I found this almost
revelatory. You write that while some might contend that our
core problem as humans is that we think too highly
(24:53):
of ourselves, you say. I'd argue that most of us
live with an underlying sense of worthlessness,
alienation, and disillusionment.
I mean, again, as someone who grew up very conservative
Christian, that quote is shocking,
almost.
>> Chuck (25:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And what we know
is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
themselves, but underneath that, inevitably, is shame.
>> Loren (25:16):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (25:16):
Um, and we see this play out. You know, this
is sort of a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical
one, too. There are a number of people now
who are saying, even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
fruit, which, you know, is sometimes theologized
as some sort of arrogant decision, Adam and
Eve's pride. What they're wrestling with
(25:37):
are these questions that are raised by the
serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
being abused, you know, by the serpent,
who is raising questions that Send
them spiraling like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
we're missing something which I call shame.
And so shame precedes even the grasping of the fruit.
(25:57):
And so I think for, for all of us. And
you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
born with narciss. You don't wake up one day and choose to become
a narcissist. It's born out of a way of
coping. I'm going to become grandiose. I'm going
to become the bully because I experienced abuse or I
(26:18):
was bullied or I was small or I was made to feel ashamed.
And I never ever want to feel that again.
>> Loren (26:25):
Yeah, that really makes sense again from a parts perspective. Right, because
you, uh, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I imagine
that that narcissistic part is
just doing super extra overtime.
Right?
>> Chuck (26:37):
Yeah, that's it. 100%. And that, that's
the, that would be a take on narcissism
that, uh, very few really
get and understand. Like, I, I rarely hear that articulated the
way you just articulated that, Loren. But I'd say
it's, it's a really important next, um,
step in our understanding of it. Because too often when
(26:57):
people talk about narcissists, thinking about that
beautiful space we call Twitter or X, you know,
uh, where we have such healthy conversations all the time. But
people will call other people narcissists in a
way that, uh, they seem to be labeling them
and speaking to the very core of who they are. I've
been doing this work for a long time, and I know narcissism
(27:18):
is never reflective of the core of who
a person is. A person at their core is
loved as an image bearer, is seen and known by God. But the
narcissist seems to be driving the bus,
you know, and it's loud and the narcissist is causing a
lot of problems, you know, but it's just a part.
>> Loren (27:36):
Yeah. And I think that gets into something that
I found intriguing in the book,
in, in the lecture I heard you give.
I mean, there certainly is in some ways. I don't know
if you want to dive too deep into this, but there certainly is
a theological framework or undergirding that's
a little shift away from like this total
depravity type mentality towards
(27:59):
like a, at least in my own language, I
would say as like a brokenness or, ah,
a woundedness. I think you use that word Right.
>> Chuck (28:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean, I want to start with original goodness. And I want to say
that that's core to who we are, you know, and we are image
bearing, which is to say we're made for worth, belonging
and purpose. But, uh, the
reality is, is that there is this. I call it
a primal wound. You know, uh, instead of original
(28:28):
sin, I talk about a primal wound. And the
reason I do that is, you know, wound is the
trauma. By the way, trauma is the Greek word
for wound, right? So when we're talking about trauma, we're talking about
a core wound. And when we talk about trauma, we're talking
about disconnection at its core. And so
really what Genesis 3 is, is about a primal
(28:48):
wound, a primal disconnection, a primal
trauma that renders us alienated
and estranged from ourselves and from each other
and from God. And that's the age old
problem. Um, now out of that, when our,
when our lives are. When we're disconnected, when we're
estranged, when we're disordered, so to speak,
um, we will do things that harm others and harm
(29:10):
ourselves. That's what Christians have classically called
sin. But we've got all of this turned upside
down because sometimes we define people by,
uh, as sinners at the core. Right. I think that's
a real problem.
>> Loren (29:23):
Yeah. I'm thinking about, again, I'm
thinking about ptsd, Post traumatic stress
syndrome. Right. As I understand trauma.
And again, that disconnectedness. And this is what's so interesting
about the story in Genesis 3, right. How they
are disconnected from God and how, at least as I understand it,
like two people can experience the exact
(29:44):
same event. But if one person has someone
with them or shortly thereafter, the process
with, they may not experience that event
as traumatic. Right. Whereas the other person, who's
alone, can often develop
that trauma.
>> Chuck (29:59):
Yeah, yeah. This is where you know, and I'm sure you have
listeners, we're like, oh gosh, they're talking about trauma. Everyone's talking
about trauma nowadays. It's so overused, it's so misused.
And, uh, but what I'd want to say is,
yeah, it is. When people talk about how traumatic
it is to drop their phone in the toilet bowl or something.
But trauma at its core, if it's
(30:20):
true that it is about disconnection, as we were just talking
about, then we all live with a kind of
primal sense of disconnection. We all experience some
sense of being estranged from ourselves. G.K.
chesterton once said, every man has forgotten who he
is. That's estrangement. That's alienation.
And so there is that kind of, um,
resounding wound that, you know that.
(30:42):
That sort of leaps off the Pages from Genesis 3 on,
and you see the implications of it for
1,185 chapters of the Bible, until you get
to Revelation 21 and 22. And that
trauma that you're speaking of. Well,
um, there's a lot more that we can say about it.
But when two people experience, let's say
(31:02):
they go through a natural disaster, a tornado tears through a
small town, um, if a
person is, um, taken in by another
family, if they're helped, they're
fed, they're allowed to cry,
the stress that they're experiencing is far less apt
to turn into trauma than the person who goes it
(31:23):
alone. Which is to say that's the story of Genesis
3 as well. When you go it alone,
you're more apt to find yourself disconnected and
traumatized. And, um, that's what we need to be
paying attention to in our lives.
>> Loren (31:37):
Yeah. So it brings me to a real practical question that's
coming to mind when I'm thinking about clergy,
church leaders, especially for clergy. And I
guess this is what made Covid so hard, right. Is that
we were going through this really
traumatic event. And broadly speaking, we're very
isolated. Like, is this why it's so important for
(31:57):
clergy to have some kind of support group or close
friendship?
>> Chuck (32:01):
Uh, yes. Yeah. I was just on a call the other
morning, um, with a group. We're trying to maybe get some
money to do some work on secondary trauma for pastors.
Pastors, um, you know, who are constantly dealing with all
kinds of realities. Right. And you got the funerals, you got
the disappointed parishioners, and you got the people who are
like, we, um, need to sing these songs more. And we've got all the
(32:22):
stuff that pastors go through.
Um, and the language that we use is secondary
trauma, which is to say that, you know, as a result
of being in m. In the midst of all these
crises that go on every day, pastors start to
feel numb or angry or cynical or
lethargic or overwhelmed or
grandiose in the sense that I can do anything.
(32:44):
Um, and so that's why it's
so important for pastors, uh, to
have friends to be connected, because we're
more apt to live in the ongoing sort of
story of trauma before going it alone.
But if you have, you know, if you have a group of pastors you're meeting with
regularly, regularly, and you're like, man, this was
(33:04):
a doozy of A week. Like, I, I got, um,
broadsided by one of my elders. And then,
uh, you know, I got another call about, you know, another leader
in the church with a pornography addiction. And then I, you know,
I. Then we found out that, uh, we're not gonna have enough money to
meet budget this year.
>> Loren (33:20):
Right.
>> Chuck (33:20):
It's like, oh, uh, you. Yeah, you need to be processing
that.
>> Loren (33:24):
Yeah, yeah, we're kind of ping
ponging back and forth here just because, like, there's so much
good stuff you have. And it kind of sparks my mind
about something else. I want to go back to.
You write about biography, never excusing
harmful behavior. I want to see if I can find the quote, but it
certainly let, uh, me see if I can find the
(33:44):
quote, but it certainly
invites us to attend to the wound of which it
occurs. So again, this really gets into,
I think, a broader theological
question of whether
it be total depravity, what have you,
uh, talk about that.
(34:05):
Because maybe I'm being too cynical, but it does seem
like from my perspective there can be this tendency in our culture
to be like, oh, uh, we can just,
hey, he grew up in a rough home,
so, you know, that's why he's doing
what he is. Like, we can understand it, but also like,
hey, talk about, like, how to balance that
tension between. Hey, had a rough childhood. But also like,
(34:27):
I can't just act like a jerk 24 7.
Like, I'm thinking, I don't know if you watch the Good Place. Like, I love the Good Place.
Like Ellen, uh, Eleanor Shellstrop, Right?
>> Chuck (34:36):
Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Part of what you're getting at is, um, in the last section of the book, I
start talking about addiction and how we, we
home in on the behavior. And uh, what we want to
do is we want to change the behavior. We don't want them to drink, we don't want
them to look at pornography. We don't want them to overeat.
We don't, you know, whatever it is. And
(34:57):
um, I don't want to minimize the damage
that addictive behavior can do or
behavior that's sabotaging of others or
harming of others herself. Right. Um, I
do want to get curious about what it's about.
>> Loren (35:11):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (35:12):
And, you know, so why is he a jerk? Or why does he over drink?
Or why does, why does he,
um. Why does she look at pornography? Why does she overeat?
Whatever, you know, whatever the things are. Right.
Um, and, and uh,
invariably these are born out of a wound. Um, a
biography, a story. There's a story underneath. That's why I say there's
always biography beneath the behavior.
>> Loren (35:33):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (35:33):
And so what is that story? And how, how
did that, you know, becoming the jerk, becoming the bully,
narcissist, um, over drinking, you
know, how was that a source of coping? How is that a way
of alleviating anxiety, self
soothing? Um, how has that served
the person for years and years? And so, you know, I'm,
I'm always curious. I tell the story in there of.
(35:56):
And I've told the story in a variety of ways over the years of,
um, someone in the church who had had an
affair and was really being beat up by a lot of
other people in the church for the affair. And I went and sat down
with this person. I simply asked, what were you longing
for? Yeah, I wasn't trying to excuse the
behavior, but I was trying to get to the heart like, what, what
(36:16):
was, what was going on? And, and, and this person
said, um, my spouse hasn't looked at
me for years. Like, I haven't felt loved in years.
And, uh, I've been alone, I've been isolated.
Isolated. And then this other person, you know, I found
someone who saw me. And um,
you know, that's not an excuse.
>> Loren (36:34):
Right.
>> Chuck (36:34):
Again for, um, for the affair.
But it does help make sense of it and it does help us to
approach, you know, I do pastoral care and counseling. Right.
So, yeah, I want to approach people,
um, in a way that, uh, you know,
that, that, that moves toward them with empathy, with
compassion, that looks beneath the waterline at,
uh, you know, how they can heal most deeply.
>> Loren (36:57):
Yeah. And I heard this in another context, and I'm not going to get
it correct, exactly. But
the scholar was making the point that in
tenuous conversations we can often come first with
like, conviction and then
curiosity.
>> Chuck (37:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:13):
And he's kind of making the point, like, let's come first with,
I think, compassion, civility, and then
finally conviction. Like.
Yeah, I, you're obviously the expert
far more than I am, but I can imagine in a conversation like you're
referencing, like, coming at someone with like,
hey, affairs. Wrong. Like,
she knows that. Right. They. A person in that
(37:35):
context probably knows that. And it's not going to
solve the issue.
>> Chuck (37:40):
No, no, it's not. And, um, you probably push the
person further away, you know, and if you, if you look at this from a
parts perspective, you know, if there's a part of that person who
is acting out in one way or another, the only
way to, um, win over that
part, which is to say the only Way to, like, actually do the work
of healing is to do it with empathy and
(38:00):
compassion. You know, uh, if that's a part
that was looking for soothing in
an affair, um, I want to get curious
about what it needed in that affair, what it
needed in that soothing, why it didn't feel,
uh. Why this part, for a long time, didn't feel
like it was worth it. What. Why it
(38:21):
was able to connect or whatever the case may be.
Right. There's. There's a whole trail to pursue
there. But of course, this is what I do for a living. Like,
I, uh, I love to pursue the. Under the
waterline kind of stu. Right. And, um,
you know, there's some pastor is going to say, well, no, you just need to discipline
that person.
>> Loren (38:38):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (38:39):
But I want to say, you know, I think there's probably more going
on there.
>> Loren (38:43):
Well, I guess I'll just speak personally. Like,
I found even when I'm, like, curious about
a behavior and curious about,
like, how does it connect my part? I'm like, oh,
it's like, it helps me not do that
behavior.
>> Chuck (39:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:00):
If I can figure out, at least to some degree, like,
what am I. Like to
use that third question. Like, what do I. What do I really long for? What am
I. What am I needing in this context?
Um, and that's a real mind drip to like.
To like, I think, accept that part that's
behaving poorly and then recognize that, you know, that part
(39:22):
is really trying to do good for you. And.
>> Chuck (39:24):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:24):
You know, like.
>> Chuck (39:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:25):
Oh, wait. This part can actually behave in help. Helpful
ways for me. Yeah.
>> Chuck (39:30):
Yeah. Those. Our parts are often really. Just really
desperate. You know, where Dan, uh, Siegel says that
there. There are four fundamental needs every human has
when they're born to feel safe, seen,
soothed, and secure. And, you know,
that I. I think what happens is when we don't experience that, we're going
to be chasing after feelings of safety,
(39:51):
soothing security, et cetera, for, uh, the rest of our
lives. And so soothe me, soothe me, soothe me
affair, you know, job, um,
success, whatever the case may be.
>> Loren (40:01):
Yeah. For a narcissist scene, Right?
>> Chuck (40:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The more the
merrier.
>> Loren (40:08):
Yeah. Well, let's take a break, and we'll come
back with some closing questions.
>> Chuck (40:16):
All m. Right.
>> Loren (40:16):
We're back. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go,
because this is like, this is the line that I hated the
most. I suppose in a good way. You write
that the deepest work often happens when the lights
go out. I mean, yeah.
I'VE kind of felt that for a while and
I hate that. So maybe give me some
(40:37):
good news, I guess. Give our listeners some good news.
>> Chuck (40:40):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think we want to be in control
oftentimes of the process. Right. I mean, I
think, um, I hope this comes off as
good news, but I mean I, I, um. This is a
real struggle of mine. I turned 54 this year and
I really thought that I would be over. I've
struggled with a lot of anxiety my whole life. Right. And
um, I thought. And panic attacks and I really thought by
(41:02):
40, I'd be done with it by 45, I'd be done with
it By 50. And um, you know, I'm,
I'm. It's tough sometimes because
um, the reality is we don't, we don't have as much
control sometimes over these things as we think we do. Right. And
I've done all the practices, I've done, you know, like, I've done the
therapy and the practices and stuff like that.
(41:23):
Um, but I felt at times very much in the dark, you know,
like, okay, God, I don't, I don't know where you are.
I don't know what else to do. And there is
something of a surrender that happens in that space. I
think, um. Well, maybe for some you
double down. I mean I've certainly had the tendency to want to double
down, but I think, right. Some sense of like,
okay, so this is, um, I think this is like, okay,
(41:46):
so Paul had a thorn. Um, I, I
guess this is something of a thorn, you know. And
um, I don't like it. Um, I think
others struggle with, with other different kinds of things. And I don't
talk about this a whole lot, but it's, it's something that
I'm, I'm learning to befriend at some level
as um. I certainly think my anxiety and
my panic has probably led to
(42:08):
um, a greater sense of dependence and limitation
and humility to some degree.
Um, and uh, wrestling
with God. And so yeah, it's,
I don't know that that's good news, but I do think
it is something that we learn over the years that you know,
uh, we have far less control, there's far more
mystery and we've got to live our lives a whole
(42:31):
lot more open handed than we ordinarily do.
>> Loren (42:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, great
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Really want to recommend
the book again. Uh, the title is
Healing what's Within. Available in
October. So Share anything else you want to
share? Just about the book, how folks can connect with
you, all that stuff.
>> Chuck (42:52):
Yeah, well, I'm on,
um, a number of social media
spaces. I'm just too old to do TikTok at
this point, I think. Um, but
at ChuckDeGroat, uh, D E G R O A t. And then
chuckdegroat.net is my website. And I teach out at
Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, if people want to find
me there.
>> Loren (43:12):
All right. Well, again, really appreciate the conversation. Really recommend
the book. Thank you so much for your conversation. Always leave folks
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Chuck (43:21):
Thanks, Loren.
>> Loren Richmond (43:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(43:51):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the plus pod to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Chuck DeGroat to
the program. Chuck is a professor
of pastoral care and Christian spirituality
at Western Theological Seminary in Holland,
Michigan, where he also serves as the founding
executive director of the Clinical Mental Health
Counseling Program. He is a licensed
(01:06):
therapist, spiritual director, author,
retreat leader, speaker, and faculty
member with the Soul Care Institute.
As a therapist, he specializes in navigating
issues of abuse and trauma,
pastoral and leadership, Health and Doubt,
and Dark nights on the faith Journey.
He trains clergy in handling issues of
(01:29):
abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and
planter assessments, and facilitates church
consultations and investigations of
abuse. Before transitioning to
training and forming pastors, Chuck
served as a pastor in Orlando and
San Francisco. He and his wife Sarah have been
married for 30 years and have two
(01:51):
adult daughters. A, uh,
reminder, before we start today's conversation, please
take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha
and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
ah.com
(02:14):
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
of the church.
>> Chuck (02:33):
Okay.
>> Loren (02:33):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Jr. And today I'm pleased to be welcoming
Chuck De Groat. And I'm sorry, Chuck, did he want, like, titles
or.
>> Chuck (02:42):
No, no, Chuck is great.
>> Loren (02:45):
Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. You've been on the show before.
But just share, if you would, briefly, just about your, your
background and uh, what, what's,
what's going on with you today?
>> Chuck (02:55):
Yeah, I, uh, I was in,
uh. Well, I'm originally from Long Island Island, New
York, um, by way of Iowa,
Chicago, Florida, San Francisco, and now West
Michigan. I was a pastor in Orlando
and in San Francisco and
started some clinical counseling centers in those
places. And then I've been, ah, a faculty member at
(03:17):
a seminary in West Michigan, Western Theological Seminary for the
last 11 years where I, um, lead a clinical
counseling program here and so, yeah, it's been a
pretty full life. And I'm a therapist, I'm a pastor as
well as a therapist. So I've been practicing as a
therapist for 25 years as well.
>> Loren (03:35):
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And then,
uh, you're, you're good at this. And I could probably use some of
this later on after we wrap some spiritual
practices that uh, are rec. You like to do or
find meaningful.
>> Chuck (03:48):
Well, um, I
think at the top of the list is
contemplative, uh, prayer, silent prayer.
M. Um, I grew up in a tradition
where, uh, prayer was wrapped around a lot of
words. And so, um, for me
now, silence, uh, a more
(04:08):
imaginative space that I go
into. Um, those are important practices.
Breathing, connecting to my body. So very
embodied. Contemplative prayer practice is kind of right at
the top of my list. But you know, I love, I
love engaging nature walks in nature walking
labyrinths.
>> Loren (04:26):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (04:27):
Um, and things like that too.
>> Loren (04:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome for sharing. Thanks you. Thank you for
sharing that. Well, we're kind of jumping right into it
because Chuck has a heart out and a, ah,
lot of content actually to talk about in his book.
Chuck's the author of the book Healing
what's Within. You'll have to give the subtitle, but
when does this book come out, Chuck? As a recording?
>> Chuck (04:49):
October 8th of 24.
>> Loren (04:52):
Okay. So, uh, I can't remember when this is scheduled there, but
so be on the lookout. I'm sure it'll be
available for pre order regardless. Right?
>> Chuck (05:00):
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
>> Loren (05:02):
So whether it's uh, whether it's pre October or post
October, be on lookout for it. But I
think so. And I had the, I had the
privilege, Chuck, to hear you when you spoke at
Steve, uh, Cust's conference. Yeah, that was like a year
ago.
>> Chuck (05:17):
Yeah, that's right.
>> Loren (05:18):
In the Denver metro. And you touched on some of these themes.
But talk a little bit about
like, I hate to say what inspired the book, but really like
how this coalesced into a book.
>> Chuck (05:30):
Yeah, well, I had done some work before
this on narcissism in the church and
um, you know, that conversation,
there's a lot that goes into that. Narcissism, um, and
spiritual abuse in the church, uh, is
pretty fraught territory and
um, you encounter people in a lot of
pain. And I had my own experience many years ago
(05:52):
too. And so as I thought about what
might be next, I really wanted to focus on
the healing process. I didn't want to do like a
narcissism book. 2.0 or something like that.
But, you know, now when we experience
things that are hard and that we can't really
control, like events that happen to us,
um, maybe a desire for justice that we just can't
(06:14):
get, like, so what do we do then? And how do we do the
healing work with within? One of the things we know about
trauma is that trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens
within.
>> Loren (06:24):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (06:24):
The imprint that's left behind. And so
this is really a book that invites people to do that deep
inner work, but, um, also framed
up through three questions from
Genesis Chapter three. So I really wanted to
also, uh, invite people to hear God's
curious and compassionate questions, um,
(06:45):
with a different ear than they might have heard them with
before, perhaps if they'd grown up in traditions
where God was particularly angry in
Genesis Chapter three. And, um.
>> Loren (06:56):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (06:56):
And so I really wanted to sort of frame
those in a compassionate way to say, you know, in the
midst of your pain, your trauma, experiences of injustice,
abuse, God shows up with kindness and
compassion.
>> Loren (07:10):
Why don't you share a little bit about. Because.
Why don't you share a little about Internal family systems theory? Because I
think that certainly has a key
role, that concept or framework within the book. Why
don't you explain that a little bit for our listeners? Uh, we might reference.
>> Chuck (07:24):
Yeah, there's one particular chapter. I think it's like chapter seven,
six, five. I can't remember.
>> Loren (07:30):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (07:30):
Um, where in fact, I even start out with,
um, the movie Inside Out. The first one. I don't think when
I submitted my manuscript, I knew a second one was coming out.
But, uh.
>> Loren (07:39):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (07:40):
Yeah, I found Internal Family Systems 20 years
ago now, um, on a VHS tape
at a school where I was doing some teaching. And it blew
my mind. Because the real
simple way of talking about it is we all have parts.
Which is to say we, uh, wake up in the morning and
part of us wants to lay in bed. And another part wants to get
(08:01):
going. And another part says, I'm not even sure I want to
be in this world anymore. And
we're complex, we're multifaceted. And I
think the reality is, is because of the
pain of our lives, the experiences that we've had, there
are different parts of us that show up in different ways at
different times. And, you know, there's. There's probably a version
(08:22):
of me that shows up to something like this that tend. Wants to
do well. You know, wants to. Wants Loren
to appreciate, you know, how articulate
or articulate. See, I can't even say the Word I am,
um, and ah, how much I have to offer.
>> Loren (08:36):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (08:37):
Um, and other parts of me that might be sort
of hiding the background that carry shame or
anxiety or. And we all live like
this, we end up living pretty divided lives.
And um, the work of internal family systems
is really about uh, being deeply
connected to our true selves, um,
(08:58):
and living from that core and anchored place
well, remaining well, continuing
to have access to these other different parts of us
that tend uh, to go off on their own but
really need a lot of love and care, uh, in the
process. And so part of what I introduced folks
to in this is a bit of that work of befriending
(09:18):
the different parts of us that sometimes uh,
take over, sometimes perfectionistic, sometimes are angry,
sometimes we're ashamed, um,
and uh, with a lot of kindness and hospitality
within.
>> Loren (09:32):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And
um, I'm just thinking again, like, I think I said this in my email to you
that this is in many ways like a book that I read that I found so
helpful for me and that's why I wanted to talk to you and I'm hoping
it's helpful for our listeners as well.
Um, but I'm just thinking about like
the parts like I was at a church group and I've been really trying
(09:53):
to do some like parts work myself
and I was in a group where I felt like I was.
I'm trying to be aware of like again how my parts show up. So like
in this group, like I felt like, oh, I'm talking too much and that
part is being too much. And then I talked to my
wife and she's like, hey, you didn't say enough.
So it's just being aware of those
(10:13):
parts, right? Yes. Is a learning endeavor.
>> Chuck (10:16):
Yeah, it is. And you know,
I think this is part of growing in self awareness, you know
that as you become more aware of how you show up in
different times in different places. Like someone reflected
back to me recently that they sensed that I was a bit
anxious and that I was, that I, I was coming off
as like the funny guy. I was trying to be the funny guy. And I
thought, oh, that's a really old story in my body.
(10:39):
Like that, that was one of the ways that I used to cope growing up
on Long Island, New York, where I grew up in the midst of the
anxiety and tumultuousness I grew
up in. So I'd keep it light, I'll keep it
funny. And, and so how do I
become more aware of that part of me that's okay to
Be funny. Mhm. But I also want to
be aware of when it's a way of coping
(11:01):
because of stress and anxiety and other things.
>> Loren (11:05):
So you mentioned the
befriending of our
parts in the book, befriending our Suffering.
I think that's been one of the most intriguing
aspects of IFS internal family systems
theory as I've learned it. Um, but,
uh, I'm thinking about, I'm not going to say my parts,
right. But I'm going to think about my parts and I think about
(11:27):
like, it was a real revelation to
me to think about some of
these parts that are behaving in ways that are
not super helpful for me. Right. Moving forward
and then learning, like, hey, like those
parts can actually like really be helpful
and just about figuring it out. So like,
(11:47):
I want to really contextualize this
because again, this is a, this is a podcast for
pastors and church leaders. So I want to contextualize
it to that context and space.
And I remember like having this
conversation with another guest. But like,
I guess I'll speak somewhat general generally
(12:08):
for myself. Like, I can imagine
in a church context where I have a part
that's as a pastor
that it's hard to think of that part as helpful
when it's constantly behaving in an unhelpful ways.
Like it's like, oh, you know, the budget is
screwed and, um, you know, everybody hates you or
(12:29):
whatever. Or, you know, there's a
congregant that really brings up some memories
of a difficult relationship. Right.
>> Chuck (12:40):
Yeah. I mean, I, I think that all we
can do is sort of control what's going on in us and be aware of
what's going on in us, you know, and then, and you know, if
you do have some leadership capacity with
others, there's a way that, uh, I think if you're doing your
own work, that you can lean in and begin to invite others to
become more aware. But the reality
is, like when you, when you have a group of people come around
(13:03):
a table, well, if my funny guy is showing up
and her angry side is
showing up, and his, you know, quiet, passive
side, you know, um, it
might be a disaster of a meeting. Um,
it's, it's always best when we can bring the fullness of
ourselves to a meeting. And so
learning this, doing this work and learning this language as a kind
(13:25):
of shorthand so that we can show up more
fully is really important, I think.
And the reality is we have lots of different ways of,
of coping. Um, our parts are
really in many respects Ways of
coping, uh, in the m. In the midst of our
anxiety and pain and things like that. And if
we can become more aware of not
(13:47):
only how we're showing up in the present moment, but what the roots are. Like, how
did I. How did that start? You know,
it's. That could be really helpful.
>> Loren (13:55):
Yeah. I did something in CPE where I had
a clinical, uh, pastoral education for our
listeners, where I had to write, like, a. A narrative.
Foundational narrative or something like that. And again, it was
something. When I thought about
that narrative in the context of
ifs, like, my parts, I was like, holy smokes.
(14:16):
Like, that's. It's all right there.
>> Chuck (14:18):
Yeah.
>> Loren (14:18):
Uh, and then talking to one of my good friends who is well
trained in ifs. Like, he similarly, like, has a
story that he's kind of recognized that
really has those parts playing
different roles. So it is. It is. Boy, it's
powerful.
>> Chuck (14:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (14:35):
I don't want to get too far into this to not talk
about Genesis 3, those three questions. So
why don't you just talk through those three questions? Because, man, for me,
they were so holy smokes.
Foundational or impactful?
>> Chuck (14:48):
Ah, yeah. It's
a lot of people, I think, experience. This is a different way of
engaging, um, God or being.
Being, um, engaged by God in Genesis chapter three. And
for me, this goes back a long, long time ago,
early 2000s, where I was leading some retreats.
And it struck me that God's where are
(15:08):
you? Was, um, maybe not as angry as I'd
heard it before. You know, people know. Most
people know the backstory of Genesis 3. This
slithering serpent sort of sidles up to
Adam and Eve and says, did God really say that you must not
eat from the tree? And really what the serpent is doing
is it's causing, um, doubt or
questions about God's goodness, about Adam and
(15:30):
Eve's enoughness. It's just raising lots of
questions. And Adam and Eve are left with
this big, big question of, like, are we going
to have to grasp for that fruit in order
to, um, fill ourselves in a
way that maybe God hadn't filled us or
to meet needs that maybe God hadn't met. Like, uh, in the midst
(15:51):
of that question, are we enough? They go ahead
and grasp. And of course, they're awakened to their own
nakedness. They feel exposed, and so
they're ashamed and they hide and they sew fig leaves.
Most people know that part of the story. It's the next part
where God is walking in the cool the day, which is
really interesting because he has commentators
(16:11):
really wrestle with what's going on there. But the reality is that God was
probably walking during the part of the day when
the sun had gone down, when it was cooler, probably
during the time of the day, at least the way the story goes.
Um, that God and Adam and Eve would have taken
a walk. I think that's. That's, you know, whoever is narrating
the story is trying to tell something of a story like that. Like,
(16:31):
they were friends in the garden. And now God's walking in the
garden, like, where did you go? I
miss you. And that's what struck me is
like, God's, where are you? In fact, the word where is the
first word of the book of Lamentations. It's a word of
heartbreak. It's like a broken friend. Where
are you? Um, I remember I got lost a number of
(16:51):
years ago in the woods. And, you know, my dad was crying
out, where are you, son? Where are you? Um,
and so that's so
different. Like, if you grew up in a tradition where God was
angry and it was like a where the hell are you?
Um, who told you? So. So where are you?
Is a kind question, and it's a question that invites us to
(17:12):
come out of hiding. Um, to become aware
of how we're hiding and the fig leaves that we've
sown.
>> Loren (17:18):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (17:19):
Um, we talked a lot about that. The second question, who told
you? Which gets us to reflect on our
stories, like, how did you get here in the first place?
And what story have you been believing about yourself?
And then the third question, have you eaten from the tree? Which is to
say, where have you taken your hunger and thirst?
Um, where have you gone for satisfaction?
(17:39):
And, uh, my sense is
that that takes us to the New Testament and the question that
Jesus asks more than any other question.
And that's, um, what do you
want? What do you long for? You know? And I think
God is asking us, what do you long
for? Wanting us to
get in touch with our deepest desires and deepest
(18:02):
longings.
>> Loren (18:04):
Yeah. It really reminds me of something else you talked about in the book
about that. I think you wrote about
addiction really being about disconnection.
>> Chuck (18:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:14):
Which I think is a powerful, powerful, uh, way to say it.
But I was reminded of the where are you? Like, one of my
previous guests, Yolanda Solomon, I think she
made this exact point that throughout Scripture, that question
is being asked by God, where are you?
And it's such a powerful
reframing to think about. Not as, like, you said,
(18:34):
that angry, where are you? But, hey,
where are You. And I think it does fit with the narrative of
Scripture when we think about.
She, um, referenced another story I hadn't thought about. But certainly the
prodigal son is the most obvious one that comes
to mind. Yeah, I think
the. Who told you? I feel like that really resonates
with the parts. Right?
>> Chuck (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think
as you start listening within, you begin to hear
some different voices. And, um, I don't know about
you. Maybe I do. Maybe people who are listening
right now are like, he hears voices.
Why did Loren invite him on? But I
do think that in any given day,
(19:17):
as I'm listening within, um,
there are parts of me that are like.
They're out ahead of me, and they're like, you've got this.
You can do this. You're well prepared. You're going to be fine. There
are parts of me that are like, oh, no, stay
home today. This isn't going to go
well. Um, I. This morning I taught a
class here at the seminary. And, uh, on some material I
(19:39):
hadn't taught on in a while. And I even told the class, you know,
there's a part of me that comes in kind of excited about
today, um, with a voice of like, isn't this
wonderful that you get to teach on this? And then there's another part of
me that just wanted to kind of crawl into a hole this morning
and not come out. Um, because I have this
sense that, uh, you know, I. Gosh, I
(20:00):
haven't taught on this in a long, long time. And what if I, you
know, what if it doesn't go well? That's, uh, my shame sort
of catching up with me. And there are lots of other different
voices within me at any given time, uh,
that can be critical, that, uh, can be judgmental
of others, that can be grandiose, that can.
That can be beautiful. And so
(20:20):
I. It's always a fun exercise. I mean, people, as you
probably know, are kind of dubious about this until they
start practicing it.
>> Loren (20:27):
Right. It sounds super wonky. Like,
I was reading. I was reading, uh.
Because. What is it? Schwartz's big white cover book. I can't
remember the title.
>> Chuck (20:37):
Is that no Bad Parts or something else?
>> Loren (20:39):
No, I think it was, like, an introduction. I can't remember.
Yeah, it's frankly. It's frankly,
like, boring. Like, I couldn't make it through. It was so boring.
Um, like, I was. I was reading it, like, wanting to read, like, what's,
um, his name? Um. Gosh, who's
the. Who's the family systems rabbi guy that I'M blanking
on.
>> Chuck (20:57):
Oh, Friedman, Friedman.
>> Loren (20:58):
Like I was expecting like Friedman level of just like brilliance and
you know, just humor and dry wit and everything. And it wasn't
quite that, but I was reading that his, his
things about these parts and like what's coming to mind, Chuck, is
like Frank Peretti, like
you know, like these uh,
you know we're. There's just this inherent mistrust
(21:19):
of just anything that sounds different and oh gosh, that might
be bad. Which I guess is a part. Right? Might say almost.
Right?
>> Chuck (21:26):
Yeah, yeah, uh, I think so.
>> Loren (21:29):
But I was thinking of uh, when I'm thinking
about.
When I'm thinking about uh, parts and. Who told
you. I can't remember if you write about this in the
book, but I'm thinking of. And I'm blanking on titles
right now, I think. Is it Ashley Cook,
uh, who co wrote a book on ifs from a Christian
(21:49):
perspective?
>> Chuck (21:50):
Oh, Allison Cook.
>> Loren (21:51):
Allison Cook, yes. And they talk about, I can't remember the
co author but they talk about like the spirit led self.
>> Chuck (21:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (21:57):
So talk a little bit if you can. Just about. I don't
know, I don't know if you use similar phraseology or naming. Uh,
but how do you know?
>> Chuck (22:05):
Like what?
>> Loren (22:05):
Because again, just to be transparent,
because there was a, there was a time for me where I like, I
could say like hey, I don't think that's the voice of truth. But I
don't. Mhm. I don't know if I can hear like the
voice of truth. Right.
>> Chuck (22:18):
Yeah, yeah. I mean it goes by
various names. You know, even in the Bible, Paul talks about the
old self and the new self, you know, and in the Christian tradition
it's become the true self. Um, Allison and
Kim Miller talk about it as the spirit
led self. However you describe it, what they're saying
is this is the core of you. Um, this is the
(22:39):
image bearing core where God dwells. This
is you when you're anchored and rooted, you know,
in that Ephesians 3 kind of sense.
>> Loren (22:47):
Mhm.
>> Chuck (22:48):
Um, that's your adult self and that we all
have a ah, capacity to
connect to our adult cells and live from our adult cells. But
the reality is, is that because of what happens to us
and what we experience in life, that we live out of
these, these other cells that um, that are
just trying to cope frantically oftentimes in the world.
(23:08):
Right. And so maybe it's a perfectionist you or a critic
you or a workaholic
you, um, maybe it's a self
sabotaging you, you Know, but there's a constellation.
I remember when I was doing my IFS work.
I started back in 2009,
2010, something like that, with Jay early out in San
Francisco. And, uh, I remember
(23:30):
calling my wife one day after a session, and I was like, I'm up to
14. Um, but the
idea being that the true self is that
anchored self, where you are the
conductor of the orchestra, you create a place at the table for
all the other selves around the self to come and sit and
be known and seen. And when we're,
(23:51):
uh, when we're fragmented, when we're
frazzled, when we're overwhelmed, when we're exhausted, it's
like some of these other selves get out ahead of us and m.
You know, perfectionistic me drives the
train, or self sabotaging me drives
the bus, or, you know, and that's
what we have to begin to notice is like, um, in any given
(24:11):
day, at any given moment, like, for me, even before our time,
I'm asking myself, where are you, Chuck? You
know, because I want to make sure that I'm here,
sitting in this chair, and it's not like some performative
version of me or maybe some overwhelmed and ashamed
part of me that, you know, that I'm. I'm here and
I'm present in my body and ready to talk to
(24:31):
you.
>> Loren (24:32):
Yeah, let's stay on that theme, because I wanted to talk
about. I'm going to try to find the quote here
on page 80. I thought this
was, frankly. I mean, again,
I grew up very conservative, so I found this almost
revelatory. You write that while some might contend that our
core problem as humans is that we think too highly
(24:53):
of ourselves, you say. I'd argue that most of us
live with an underlying sense of worthlessness,
alienation, and disillusionment.
I mean, again, as someone who grew up very conservative
Christian, that quote is shocking,
almost.
>> Chuck (25:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And what we know
is that there are certainly people who think too highly of
themselves, but underneath that, inevitably, is shame.
>> Loren (25:16):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (25:16):
Um, and we see this play out. You know, this
is sort of a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical
one, too. There are a number of people now
who are saying, even before Adam and Eve grasped for the
fruit, which, you know, is sometimes theologized
as some sort of arrogant decision, Adam and
Eve's pride. What they're wrestling with
(25:37):
are these questions that are raised by the
serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're
being abused, you know, by the serpent,
who is raising questions that Send
them spiraling like maybe we're not enough. Maybe
we're missing something which I call shame.
And so shame precedes even the grasping of the fruit.
(25:57):
And so I think for, for all of us. And
you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism.
You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not
born with narciss. You don't wake up one day and choose to become
a narcissist. It's born out of a way of
coping. I'm going to become grandiose. I'm going
to become the bully because I experienced abuse or I
(26:18):
was bullied or I was small or I was made to feel ashamed.
And I never ever want to feel that again.
>> Loren (26:25):
Yeah, that really makes sense again from a parts perspective. Right, because
you, uh, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I imagine
that that narcissistic part is
just doing super extra overtime.
Right?
>> Chuck (26:37):
Yeah, that's it. 100%. And that, that's
the, that would be a take on narcissism
that, uh, very few really
get and understand. Like, I, I rarely hear that articulated the
way you just articulated that, Loren. But I'd say
it's, it's a really important next, um,
step in our understanding of it. Because too often when
(26:57):
people talk about narcissists, thinking about that
beautiful space we call Twitter or X, you know,
uh, where we have such healthy conversations all the time. But
people will call other people narcissists in a
way that, uh, they seem to be labeling them
and speaking to the very core of who they are. I've
been doing this work for a long time, and I know narcissism
(27:18):
is never reflective of the core of who
a person is. A person at their core is
loved as an image bearer, is seen and known by God. But the
narcissist seems to be driving the bus,
you know, and it's loud and the narcissist is causing a
lot of problems, you know, but it's just a part.
>> Loren (27:36):
Yeah. And I think that gets into something that
I found intriguing in the book,
in, in the lecture I heard you give.
I mean, there certainly is in some ways. I don't know
if you want to dive too deep into this, but there certainly is
a theological framework or undergirding that's
a little shift away from like this total
depravity type mentality towards
(27:59):
like a, at least in my own language, I
would say as like a brokenness or, ah,
a woundedness. I think you use that word Right.
>> Chuck (28:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean, I want to start with original goodness. And I want to say
that that's core to who we are, you know, and we are image
bearing, which is to say we're made for worth, belonging
and purpose. But, uh, the
reality is, is that there is this. I call it
a primal wound. You know, uh, instead of original
(28:28):
sin, I talk about a primal wound. And the
reason I do that is, you know, wound is the
trauma. By the way, trauma is the Greek word
for wound, right? So when we're talking about trauma, we're talking about
a core wound. And when we talk about trauma, we're talking
about disconnection at its core. And so
really what Genesis 3 is, is about a primal
(28:48):
wound, a primal disconnection, a primal
trauma that renders us alienated
and estranged from ourselves and from each other
and from God. And that's the age old
problem. Um, now out of that, when our,
when our lives are. When we're disconnected, when we're
estranged, when we're disordered, so to speak,
um, we will do things that harm others and harm
(29:10):
ourselves. That's what Christians have classically called
sin. But we've got all of this turned upside
down because sometimes we define people by,
uh, as sinners at the core. Right. I think that's
a real problem.
>> Loren (29:23):
Yeah. I'm thinking about, again, I'm
thinking about ptsd, Post traumatic stress
syndrome. Right. As I understand trauma.
And again, that disconnectedness. And this is what's so interesting
about the story in Genesis 3, right. How they
are disconnected from God and how, at least as I understand it,
like two people can experience the exact
(29:44):
same event. But if one person has someone
with them or shortly thereafter, the process
with, they may not experience that event
as traumatic. Right. Whereas the other person, who's
alone, can often develop
that trauma.
>> Chuck (29:59):
Yeah, yeah. This is where you know, and I'm sure you have
listeners, we're like, oh gosh, they're talking about trauma. Everyone's talking
about trauma nowadays. It's so overused, it's so misused.
And, uh, but what I'd want to say is,
yeah, it is. When people talk about how traumatic
it is to drop their phone in the toilet bowl or something.
But trauma at its core, if it's
(30:20):
true that it is about disconnection, as we were just talking
about, then we all live with a kind of
primal sense of disconnection. We all experience some
sense of being estranged from ourselves. G.K.
chesterton once said, every man has forgotten who he
is. That's estrangement. That's alienation.
And so there is that kind of, um,
resounding wound that, you know that.
(30:42):
That sort of leaps off the Pages from Genesis 3 on,
and you see the implications of it for
1,185 chapters of the Bible, until you get
to Revelation 21 and 22. And that
trauma that you're speaking of. Well,
um, there's a lot more that we can say about it.
But when two people experience, let's say
(31:02):
they go through a natural disaster, a tornado tears through a
small town, um, if a
person is, um, taken in by another
family, if they're helped, they're
fed, they're allowed to cry,
the stress that they're experiencing is far less apt
to turn into trauma than the person who goes it
(31:23):
alone. Which is to say that's the story of Genesis
3 as well. When you go it alone,
you're more apt to find yourself disconnected and
traumatized. And, um, that's what we need to be
paying attention to in our lives.
>> Loren (31:37):
Yeah. So it brings me to a real practical question that's
coming to mind when I'm thinking about clergy,
church leaders, especially for clergy. And I
guess this is what made Covid so hard, right. Is that
we were going through this really
traumatic event. And broadly speaking, we're very
isolated. Like, is this why it's so important for
(31:57):
clergy to have some kind of support group or close
friendship?
>> Chuck (32:01):
Uh, yes. Yeah. I was just on a call the other
morning, um, with a group. We're trying to maybe get some
money to do some work on secondary trauma for pastors.
Pastors, um, you know, who are constantly dealing with all
kinds of realities. Right. And you got the funerals, you got
the disappointed parishioners, and you got the people who are
like, we, um, need to sing these songs more. And we've got all the
(32:22):
stuff that pastors go through.
Um, and the language that we use is secondary
trauma, which is to say that, you know, as a result
of being in m. In the midst of all these
crises that go on every day, pastors start to
feel numb or angry or cynical or
lethargic or overwhelmed or
grandiose in the sense that I can do anything.
(32:44):
Um, and so that's why it's
so important for pastors, uh, to
have friends to be connected, because we're
more apt to live in the ongoing sort of
story of trauma before going it alone.
But if you have, you know, if you have a group of pastors you're meeting with
regularly, regularly, and you're like, man, this was
(33:04):
a doozy of A week. Like, I, I got, um,
broadsided by one of my elders. And then,
uh, you know, I got another call about, you know, another leader
in the church with a pornography addiction. And then I, you know,
I. Then we found out that, uh, we're not gonna have enough money to
meet budget this year.
>> Loren (33:20):
Right.
>> Chuck (33:20):
It's like, oh, uh, you. Yeah, you need to be processing
that.
>> Loren (33:24):
Yeah, yeah, we're kind of ping
ponging back and forth here just because, like, there's so much
good stuff you have. And it kind of sparks my mind
about something else. I want to go back to.
You write about biography, never excusing
harmful behavior. I want to see if I can find the quote, but it
certainly let, uh, me see if I can find the
(33:44):
quote, but it certainly
invites us to attend to the wound of which it
occurs. So again, this really gets into,
I think, a broader theological
question of whether
it be total depravity, what have you,
uh, talk about that.
(34:05):
Because maybe I'm being too cynical, but it does seem
like from my perspective there can be this tendency in our culture
to be like, oh, uh, we can just,
hey, he grew up in a rough home,
so, you know, that's why he's doing
what he is. Like, we can understand it, but also like,
hey, talk about, like, how to balance that
tension between. Hey, had a rough childhood. But also like,
(34:27):
I can't just act like a jerk 24 7.
Like, I'm thinking, I don't know if you watch the Good Place. Like, I love the Good Place.
Like Ellen, uh, Eleanor Shellstrop, Right?
>> Chuck (34:36):
Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Part of what you're getting at is, um, in the last section of the book, I
start talking about addiction and how we, we
home in on the behavior. And uh, what we want to
do is we want to change the behavior. We don't want them to drink, we don't want
them to look at pornography. We don't want them to overeat.
We don't, you know, whatever it is. And
(34:57):
um, I don't want to minimize the damage
that addictive behavior can do or
behavior that's sabotaging of others or
harming of others herself. Right. Um, I
do want to get curious about what it's about.
>> Loren (35:11):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (35:12):
And, you know, so why is he a jerk? Or why does he over drink?
Or why does, why does he,
um. Why does she look at pornography? Why does she overeat?
Whatever, you know, whatever the things are. Right.
Um, and, and uh,
invariably these are born out of a wound. Um, a
biography, a story. There's a story underneath. That's why I say there's
always biography beneath the behavior.
>> Loren (35:33):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (35:33):
And so what is that story? And how, how
did that, you know, becoming the jerk, becoming the bully,
narcissist, um, over drinking, you
know, how was that a source of coping? How is that a way
of alleviating anxiety, self
soothing? Um, how has that served
the person for years and years? And so, you know, I'm,
I'm always curious. I tell the story in there of.
(35:56):
And I've told the story in a variety of ways over the years of,
um, someone in the church who had had an
affair and was really being beat up by a lot of
other people in the church for the affair. And I went and sat down
with this person. I simply asked, what were you longing
for? Yeah, I wasn't trying to excuse the
behavior, but I was trying to get to the heart like, what, what
(36:16):
was, what was going on? And, and, and this person
said, um, my spouse hasn't looked at
me for years. Like, I haven't felt loved in years.
And, uh, I've been alone, I've been isolated.
Isolated. And then this other person, you know, I found
someone who saw me. And um,
you know, that's not an excuse.
>> Loren (36:34):
Right.
>> Chuck (36:34):
Again for, um, for the affair.
But it does help make sense of it and it does help us to
approach, you know, I do pastoral care and counseling. Right.
So, yeah, I want to approach people,
um, in a way that, uh, you know,
that, that, that moves toward them with empathy, with
compassion, that looks beneath the waterline at,
uh, you know, how they can heal most deeply.
>> Loren (36:57):
Yeah. And I heard this in another context, and I'm not going to get
it correct, exactly. But
the scholar was making the point that in
tenuous conversations we can often come first with
like, conviction and then
curiosity.
>> Chuck (37:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:13):
And he's kind of making the point, like, let's come first with,
I think, compassion, civility, and then
finally conviction. Like.
Yeah, I, you're obviously the expert
far more than I am, but I can imagine in a conversation like you're
referencing, like, coming at someone with like,
hey, affairs. Wrong. Like,
she knows that. Right. They. A person in that
(37:35):
context probably knows that. And it's not going to
solve the issue.
>> Chuck (37:40):
No, no, it's not. And, um, you probably push the
person further away, you know, and if you, if you look at this from a
parts perspective, you know, if there's a part of that person who
is acting out in one way or another, the only
way to, um, win over that
part, which is to say the only Way to, like, actually do the work
of healing is to do it with empathy and
(38:00):
compassion. You know, uh, if that's a part
that was looking for soothing in
an affair, um, I want to get curious
about what it needed in that affair, what it
needed in that soothing, why it didn't feel,
uh. Why this part, for a long time, didn't feel
like it was worth it. What. Why it
(38:21):
was able to connect or whatever the case may be.
Right. There's. There's a whole trail to pursue
there. But of course, this is what I do for a living. Like,
I, uh, I love to pursue the. Under the
waterline kind of stu. Right. And, um,
you know, there's some pastor is going to say, well, no, you just need to discipline
that person.
>> Loren (38:38):
Yeah.
>> Chuck (38:39):
But I want to say, you know, I think there's probably more going
on there.
>> Loren (38:43):
Well, I guess I'll just speak personally. Like,
I found even when I'm, like, curious about
a behavior and curious about,
like, how does it connect my part? I'm like, oh,
it's like, it helps me not do that
behavior.
>> Chuck (39:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:00):
If I can figure out, at least to some degree, like,
what am I. Like to
use that third question. Like, what do I. What do I really long for? What am
I. What am I needing in this context?
Um, and that's a real mind drip to like.
To like, I think, accept that part that's
behaving poorly and then recognize that, you know, that part
(39:22):
is really trying to do good for you. And.
>> Chuck (39:24):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:24):
You know, like.
>> Chuck (39:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:25):
Oh, wait. This part can actually behave in help. Helpful
ways for me. Yeah.
>> Chuck (39:30):
Yeah. Those. Our parts are often really. Just really
desperate. You know, where Dan, uh, Siegel says that
there. There are four fundamental needs every human has
when they're born to feel safe, seen,
soothed, and secure. And, you know,
that I. I think what happens is when we don't experience that, we're going
to be chasing after feelings of safety,
(39:51):
soothing security, et cetera, for, uh, the rest of our
lives. And so soothe me, soothe me, soothe me
affair, you know, job, um,
success, whatever the case may be.
>> Loren (40:01):
Yeah. For a narcissist scene, Right?
>> Chuck (40:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The more the
merrier.
>> Loren (40:08):
Yeah. Well, let's take a break, and we'll come
back with some closing questions.
>> Chuck (40:16):
All m. Right.
>> Loren (40:16):
We're back. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go,
because this is like, this is the line that I hated the
most. I suppose in a good way. You write
that the deepest work often happens when the lights
go out. I mean, yeah.
I'VE kind of felt that for a while and
I hate that. So maybe give me some
(40:37):
good news, I guess. Give our listeners some good news.
>> Chuck (40:40):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think we want to be in control
oftentimes of the process. Right. I mean, I
think, um, I hope this comes off as
good news, but I mean I, I, um. This is a
real struggle of mine. I turned 54 this year and
I really thought that I would be over. I've
struggled with a lot of anxiety my whole life. Right. And
um, I thought. And panic attacks and I really thought by
(41:02):
40, I'd be done with it by 45, I'd be done with
it By 50. And um, you know, I'm,
I'm. It's tough sometimes because
um, the reality is we don't, we don't have as much
control sometimes over these things as we think we do. Right. And
I've done all the practices, I've done, you know, like, I've done the
therapy and the practices and stuff like that.
(41:23):
Um, but I felt at times very much in the dark, you know,
like, okay, God, I don't, I don't know where you are.
I don't know what else to do. And there is
something of a surrender that happens in that space. I
think, um. Well, maybe for some you
double down. I mean I've certainly had the tendency to want to double
down, but I think, right. Some sense of like,
okay, so this is, um, I think this is like, okay,
(41:46):
so Paul had a thorn. Um, I, I
guess this is something of a thorn, you know. And
um, I don't like it. Um, I think
others struggle with, with other different kinds of things. And I don't
talk about this a whole lot, but it's, it's something that
I'm, I'm learning to befriend at some level
as um. I certainly think my anxiety and
my panic has probably led to
(42:08):
um, a greater sense of dependence and limitation
and humility to some degree.
Um, and uh, wrestling
with God. And so yeah, it's,
I don't know that that's good news, but I do think
it is something that we learn over the years that you know,
uh, we have far less control, there's far more
mystery and we've got to live our lives a whole
(42:31):
lot more open handed than we ordinarily do.
>> Loren (42:34):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, great
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Really want to recommend
the book again. Uh, the title is
Healing what's Within. Available in
October. So Share anything else you want to
share? Just about the book, how folks can connect with
you, all that stuff.
>> Chuck (42:52):
Yeah, well, I'm on,
um, a number of social media
spaces. I'm just too old to do TikTok at
this point, I think. Um, but
at ChuckDeGroat, uh, D E G R O A t. And then
chuckdegroat.net is my website. And I teach out at
Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, if people want to find
me there.
>> Loren (43:12):
All right. Well, again, really appreciate the conversation. Really recommend
the book. Thank you so much for your conversation. Always leave folks
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Chuck (43:21):
Thanks, Loren.
>> Loren Richmond (43:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(43:51):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the plus pod to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.