March 18, 2025 • 62 mins
In this episode, Martha Tatarnic talks with Rev. Ben Crosby to explore the state of the mainline church, the challenges of evangelism, and the role of discipleship in church renewal. Ben shares his reflections on church growth, social justice, and spiritual formation. Their conversation delves into the decline of the Anglican Church of Canada, the significance of church attendance numbers for evangelism, and the tension between progressive theology and traditional discipleship. They also discuss overcoming the reluctance to talk about evangelism in mainline circles, the transformative role of the Daily Office in spiritual life, and practical steps for revitalizing church communities. Finally, Ben reflects on what he would prioritize if he were leading a mainline denomination, offering thoughtful perspectives on the church’s future in an era of significant change.
The Rev. Ben Crosby is a priest of the Episcopal Church (USA) currently serving in the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also a PhD student in ecclesiastical history at McGill University, where he studies the English Reformation. Ben is passionate about church renewal in the contemporary mainline, Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the Christian past (especially the sixteenth century) might have to say about Christian life today. He has been published in Plough, The Anglican Way, Earth & Altar, The Hour, and Faith+Lead. You can read more at bencrosby.substack.com.
Relevant Links
Mike Cosper episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e
Andrew Root episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e
Lyons on Try Tank Podcast: https://share.transistor.fm/s/2983acab
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha Tatarnick welcomes the Reverend Ben Crosby to the
show. Ben Crosby is a priest of the
Episcopal Church usa, currently serving in
the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also
a PhD student in ecclesiastical history
at, uh, McGill University, where he studies the
English Reformation. Ben is passionate
(01:07):
about church renewal in the contemporary mainline
Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the
Christian past, especially the 16th century,
might have to say about Christian life today. He has
been published in Plough, the Anglin Way,
Earthen Altar, the Hour, and Faith
Lead. You can read more@Ben
(01:28):
Crosby.substack.com as always, please take
a moment to subscribe and review the
podcast. We appreciate it. Also, if you can share this episode
with a friend, you can connect with Martha and
Loren and Future Christian on Instagram.
Thanks, and as always, enjoy the show.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:54):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host for today's episode, Martha
Tatarnic. And today I'm really happy to be
joined by the Reverend Ben Crosby.
Welcome, Ben. It's so great to have been able to line
up this conversation with you.
>> Ben Crosby (02:10):
Thanks so much, Martha. Yes, really glad to be here.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:13):
And Ben is joining us from across the
pond, as they say. So we're
navigating some different time zones and,
uh, all of that jazz. But I'm so
grateful that we were able to make this work
in your busy schedule.
So let's, um, start with some opening
(02:33):
questions so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit.
Ben, maybe you can just share with us
a bit about your faith journey, what it has
looked like in the past and what it looks like
now.
>> Ben Crosby (02:46):
Absolutely. Um, so I am a priest
of the Episcopal Church in the United States, um,
currently serving in the Anglican
Church of Canada while I am pursuing a doctoral
studies, um, at McGill University in
Montreal. I, um, didn't grow up
Anglican, though. I actually grew up in the Lutheran
Church. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(03:08):
Oh, okay, yes, um, exactly.
Uh, found my way, uh, sort of around college
to the main line over Questions
like the place of women or LGBTQ people
in the church, um, and ended up
after spending some time sort of figuring
out the uh, Lutheran versus Anglican question, sort of
(03:29):
felt like the Episcopal Church in the States or
Anglican Church in Canada would sort of be the best home,
you know, pursued ordination.
Um, there have been a priest for
a couple of years now. Um, I
think for me one of the most important moments
of my faith journey
(03:49):
was um, a moment really in the middle
of college
where, well, the way I like to say it is I
think I was, I was finally forced to confront, um,
grace as reality and not just a sort of theological
postulate.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:05):
Right.
>> Ben Crosby (04:05):
You know, I, I, I, I grew up in a church that
certainly talked a lot about, about grace, about
salvation being God's work, not ours, about our,
our relationship with God not resting on our own
accomplishments and efforts, but as a sort of
type A high achiever in kind of North
American culture. I, uh, could say the right words, but
(04:25):
maybe didn't quite feel that in my heart. Um, but I think
had a, had a moment in college where I actually
really struggled, um, with
both, um, physical and mental illness. Had to take a
little time off from school and
finally, um, yes, forced, was forced to this
place where I could no longer achieve or
accomplish or sort of do much of
(04:47):
all or much of anything rather. And was
forced I think, to really
accept, um, God's love
and, and the love of those around me as something that
is, is not
earned by, by me, you know, ticking all the right
boxes, but it's just given out of, out of sheer and
unmerited love. Um, and so
(05:10):
I hope that, um, that
sharing the grace that I have received, um,
is at the heart of, of my own ministry and, and
Christian life today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:21):
Well, my gosh, as a fellow Type A,
can I ever relate to what you just said?
Yeah, um, it's
amazing how easily
I can slip into the striving
and the box ticking.
Ah. And yet God has a way
of confronting me with
(05:43):
my own weaknesses and with the reality of
grace.
So, yeah, um, do you want to just
tell our listeners a little bit about what you're doing now
and why you're across the pond?
>> Ben Crosby (05:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm doing,
as I said, a doctorate in church history right now at
McGill. I study the
Church of England during the reign of Queen
Elizabeth, uh, I, so the second half of the
16th century, um, looking at the relationship
between the, uh, Church of England and the
Reformed and Lutheran churches on the continent. Um,
(06:17):
and so I've had an opportunity with my Wife, who's actually also
a church history PhD student to, uh, spend a
year doing some research
abroad. Um, and so we have been in the
UK for a couple of months now, and we'll be
in, uh, Zurich for most of the rest of the spring. And
it's just been really a great
(06:37):
gift and blessing to, uh, get to spend time
in the places where it happened, uh, for the things that
I study and visit some, um,
some archives, see some manuscripts that I can't see
anywhere other than being in person and getting to,
uh. Yeah, meet with, um, some
Reformation scholars sort of over here and in
Switzerland.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:58):
Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, we have to have some offline
conversations because I'm working on a book
about Anne Boleyn and her influence on
the Reformation, and it's coming out next year.
So can we talk?
Uh, that would be really, really helpful.
>> Ben Crosby (07:14):
Yeah, that sounds like great fun. I would love to do that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:17):
Oh, my gosh. Okay. I had no idea that was your
topic. So this is just really
exciting. I find it hard
these days to talk about anything other than
16th century Tudor England. So,
um, yeah, God must have brought us
together for this conversation.
>> Ben Crosby (07:36):
Amen.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:38):
Okay, so, um, not
to take all our listeners down that rabbit hole
right now, but, uh, Ben, is there a
spiritual practice that, uh, is particularly
meaningful to you right now as you're in the midst of all,
ah, of these exciting, um,
studies and traveling abroad?
>> Ben Crosby (07:58):
Yeah, I think one of the things that has really
been the anchor of my spiritual life
for. For a long time now, actually for,
um.
Yeah, probably 15, 15 years. And, um,
was really instrumental in leading me to the Anglican Church,
actually, is the, uh, the daily office. So spending
(08:19):
some time in. In the morning and in the evening
praying psalms, sort of being steeped in scripture,
having. Yes. Uh, praying for
the. For the church, for the world. You know, I
think as someone for whom
extemporaneous prayer does not always
come easily, I think having
(08:40):
sort of words to say, words given to me by
God to say the words of the psalms, the words of
scripture, to sort of. To take in, to
internalize, to spend time with,
um, every day, day in, day out,
year in, year out, um, is
really such a blessing. Um, and so I
think. Yes, I think. I think the daily office,
(09:02):
morning and evening prayer, um, can't say enough
good things about it as sort of
grounding my spiritual life and
just my life in general.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:13):
Yeah, it's amazing how many people we talk
to in these interviews who
say. Who name that as, like, such a powerful
spiritual practice and not just Anglicans.
Um, I find it really interesting and you know, as
somebody who's quite like naturally
introverted, um, it is
the words that God gives us, but
(09:34):
it's also the words that connect us to
community even when we're alone, which
is I find extremely
powerful.
>> Ben Crosby (09:44):
No, that's really well said. There's something very special about
knowing even as you say, if you are just praying it by
yourself, that you are praying the same prayers that
Christians across the world are praying, that Christians
across time are praying. I mean it does feel
there's like this very. Yes. Concrete
way to uh, be part of the communion of
saints.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:05):
Yeah, yeah, you can really feel that.
All right, well thank you for um, just
giving us that little sketch. So I
want to talk about um, some
of your writing in particular, but let's just talk about
your writing in general to start with. Uh,
you write a regular substack
(10:25):
blog and um, you
reflect on a variety of topics that contribute
to the life the Anglican Church and I think
the church in general. Um,
are there like main areas of interest
for you as a Christian writer and leader?
Is there a theme to the blogs and articles that you write
(10:45):
or is it just sort of following
uh, the spirit?
>> Ben Crosby (10:51):
Yeah, good question. I mean I
think, you know, if I think about them, I think they
probably tend to fall into a couple of
overlapping categories. Um,
I think one, and I know we're going to be talking a little bit about
this, um, for most of our
conversation today is kind of the
question of the state of the mainline, um, about
(11:13):
what sort of renewal might look like
in the mainline, what sort of cleaving more closely
to Jesus might look like, um, for
us in this time of particular
sort of challenges and stresses in a lot of our church
bodies. Um, I think I'm
also interested in
(11:33):
discipleship and spirituality. Sort m
of thinking about what for me and what perhaps for
others as well, um, might be
a pathway into uh,
deeper life with Christ to a life that
is sort of patterned more fully
as a grateful response to what God has
(11:53):
done for us in Christ Jesus. Um,
and then the third, um, is really trying I
guess to bridge the gap a little bit between
my academic work and my more sort of public
facing writing or day to day ministry, sort of
asking um, what
church history and perhaps especially
(12:15):
the 16th century that I spend most of my time in, um,
as an academic, what it might have to
um, tell us to enrich
our lives of faith today. Um, so
renewal, um, discipleship and
spirituality and um, sort of
church history for the present. I think
those are the sorts of themes that I'm trying to, uh,
(12:37):
reflect and foster a conversation about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:40):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that those are
such important themes. And I really like
that you tie in the church history
piece into that conversation as well,
because I think that we're in such a
moment in history,
and I think that translates
into the life of the church as well, where, you know, if
(13:02):
we don't remember where we've been, I think it's really
hard to be faithful about where we're going.
>> Ben Crosby (13:08):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:11):
Yeah.
Okay, so you got a lot of
air time, um, for an article that you
wrote just before Christmas called the Current State
of the Anglican Church. There was a lot
of online conversation about it. I know in
Anglican circles, um, it really packed
a punch. And,
(13:32):
um, obviously
we're having this conversation on future Christian
because I think that,
uh, the topic
is relevant way beyond just the
Anglican Church. Um, but we need
to kind of frame this article, the Current State
of the Anglican Church, uh, on
(13:54):
another article that came out this
past August and that also got a
lot of airtime. So I think we just need
to recap that initial article so
that then we can talk about your response to that
article. And if you'll indulge me for a
moment, I'm just gonna read directly
from your piece, um, that
(14:16):
article that you wrote where you recap
the August article. Hopefully our listeners are not
getting too confused by all of these
articles. Okay, so I'm just reading
from your piece,
um, this summary.
David Goodhue published a piece in the
(14:37):
Living Church's Covenant blog entitled the
Collapse of the Anglican Church of Canada,
in which he argued the Anglican Church of Canada
is the first province of the Anglican Communion
to have collapsed. He pointed out
a sharp decline in average Sunday attendance,
but stressed that attendance decline,
(14:57):
along with financial woes, are
lagging indicators. Rather, he
argued that the key metrics of
ecclesial health are baptism numbers
and age profile, and that on these
measures the ACC has already
collapsed with no recovery in
sight. He blames this decline in
(15:19):
particular on the Anglican Church of Canada,
Canada's progressivism, and in particular
a focus on progressive causes
which led to individual discipleship
and church growth being
minimized. So I think that
offers us a fair summary
of an article that
(15:41):
got a lot of Canadian
Anglicans really up in
arms. Um, and
I really, really appreciate there were a bunch of
responses to that David Goodhue
piece. Um, but I really appreciated
your response as a, uh,
very measured and thoughtful
(16:02):
response. And I think that,
um, having a Conversation with you
to kind of dig into some of those
claims that he makes is, um,
really important. And again, I
think it just needs to be stressed that
although this singled out the Anglican Church
of Canada, it really should put mainline
(16:24):
churches everywhere on blast
because, um, you know, the things
that he talks about are
relevant way beyond the acc.
So what do you think was most
helpful about this article or,
like, what most needed to
(16:45):
be heard in what David
Goodhue was arguing?
>> Ben Crosby (16:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think
he was
willing. The fact that he's coming from outside
the ACC might have made it easier for him to do so,
but, um, I think he was willing to just be
very blunt
about the
(17:14):
first of all, the sort of numerical realities
of our church right now, um, and of what
those numerical realities mean
for how we think about whether
or not, um, the church is doing,
um, what God has commissioned it to
do. So I think he
has, yeah, forced us,
(17:37):
you know, perhaps even in a, uh, in an
occasionally somewhat sharp way, um, to
really look hard at,
um, at how the church
is. Is doing. You know, I think it's. It's so
easy, um, to
look and see. Well, you know, we. We still have functioning
dioceses, we still have functioning parishes. You know, the kind of.
(17:58):
The institution is sort of, you know, still kind
of moving on. And it's. It's easy to look at that and just assume,
well, it, you know, it sort of always will. You know, things may not be great,
but they're more or less okay. Um, and I think
his article was an invitation to ask,
well, what if things aren't actually okay?
What if we really are in a crisis?
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:19):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So let's talk about that numbers game
a little bit because,
um, I mean, he certainly
says, and you agree with him, that numbers
do matter. Um, that
church growth, numbers and,
um, numbers of people attending
(18:41):
our churches, the ages of those people,
numbers being baptized, that this all
matters. Um,
so, you know, I want to talk about kind of
the pushback to that mattering, but what
would be like, kind of your main,
um, reason for saying, yeah, like these
(19:02):
statistics do tell us
truth?
>> Ben Crosby (19:07):
Yeah, I, um, think. I would say just
at the most basic level
that I think numbers matter
because I think people knowing
Jesus matters. And I think that the
not perhaps the only, but the normative
way that people come to know Jesus, um, is
(19:28):
through the ministry of the church.
Um, and so, you know, I
think that it's not just that.
Well, you know, for institutional maintenance,
we need to, you know, have people in the pews, although we do
for institutional Maintenance, um, it's not even
that for doing these sort of,
(19:48):
um, sort of social justice witness
that many in our church at present really, really want to
sort of foreground as thought as a central
part of what we do that you need to you know, have people
around to do that effectively. Although again you
do. But at the
most basic level I think that the numbers matter
(20:08):
because people being Christian
matters and that behind those
numbers at some level each of those numbers
is a person who
has come to know God
in Jesus, um, or
hasn't. Um, and so
(20:29):
yes, at the most basic level I think that numbers matter
because people knowing Jesus matters and those
numbers not perfectly sure, but
really do reflect that happening or not.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:40):
Yeah, uh, and I really appreciate your tying
like knowing Jesus to the life of the
church because you know the thing that I
kind of say all the time is like
if we want to walk with Jesus, then we are
stuck with each other. Like that is like the
church is kind of a non negotiable terms
(21:01):
of how Jesus set it up anyway. Like we
might wanna, we might be quite
tempted to think it would just be a lot easier to
follow Jesus on our own. Especially
when you know, the church can be so
frustrating and broken and
sinful and you know there's
lots of times I think that all of us just want to leave it
(21:23):
behind, but that's actually
not on the table. Like
as a um, possibility for
um, being a follower of Jesus, we do have
to um, be part of the life of
community.
>> Ben Crosby (21:39):
I think that's really well said. I mean if you look at, you
know, the language that Paul uses in his epistles
of being members of a body, I mean
that, that requires as you say, being together. I mean
the picture that we get of the church, uh,
throughout the book of Acts, it's sort of people
coming to know Jes and then coming
(21:59):
to live a life of worship and service
together as you say. I think it's non
negotiable when it comes to following Jesus.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:09):
Okay, so I have some of my own thoughts
about why um, there has been
reluctance to agree that
uh, stats and numbers
matter. Um, certainly there
is pushback in our mainline
circles around agreeing that
um, you can establish
(22:31):
church health simply based on the
metrics. But uh, what do you
think that pushback is about?
>> Ben Crosby (22:39):
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think there are
a couple of things going on, at least it seems
to me. You know, I think there are those
who rightly enough want to
draw our attention to the fact that
the moments when the churches were
Larger, um, were also moments in which, you
(22:59):
know, our churches were failing to follow Jesus.
Well, and in some ways, I mean, in Canada, of course, we talk
a lot, as we should, about the relationship between
the church and indigenous peoples, the history of the residential
schools, so forth. And, um. So I
think people can get worried
that, you know, the sort of suggestion that, uh,
(23:20):
numbers matter is a call to, you
know, return entirely, um,
to sort of an earlier model of church
that was not perfect in some significant
ways. Right. You know, I think there's also
a very keen awareness, which I think is
true enough, that, you know, in moments in
which, um, Christianity is more
(23:42):
close, uh, more culturally supported
than it is now, you know, the mere fact then
that someone's going to church, um, doesn't
necessarily mean that they are a, uh, deeply committed
disciple of Jesus. That, you know, social pressures and things like
that, you, um, know, are sort of
caused a lot of people to go to church, um,
(24:02):
in the past. And then again,
true enough, as far as that goes, I mean, all things
considered, I'd rather have people in an opportunity
to hear the gospel than not. Uh,
but I do take the point. Um,
I do also think that.
And this is one, uh, conversation that I think we often
struggle to have because it's a hard one. But
(24:25):
I think that one of
the reasons there is pushback is that there is real
disagreement in our churches about whether or
not people following Jesus or not
actually matters. Right. You know, I think there's
a strain in our
church that says, well, you know, if people are, uh,
finding a way to live that
(24:47):
enables them to do good to their neighbor and find
meaning and so on, you know, does it really matter so
much, um, if that's, you know, under the auspices
of Christianity or
not? Um, you know, I think the
claim that there is something
unique about Jesus that means
(25:08):
that people should come and follow and devote their
lives to him, um, does rub
up against, um, some of the ways that I think
we are accustomed to talk and
live in an increasingly sort of pluralistic, to
say nothing of secular society. And,
you know, and certainly there are unhelpful ways to
(25:28):
make that argument to people. Um,
but I don't know. I just.
Both looking at the experience of my own life, looking at the
testimony of Scripture, I can't
really escape the claim that
if Jesus really is good news, he's good news for
everyone and that we have a responsibility to share
(25:49):
that good news with everyone.
Um, and I think that's something that there is
some genuine disagreement about in a lot of mainline Churches
today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that those are
two such insightful points
and I appreciate them being linked
to one another because, you know, I think
the piece around
recognizing that the numbers tell us something,
but they don't tell us the whole story is really
important. Like you can have churches full of
(26:22):
people and be really far away from Jesus,
um, in certain ways anyway.
Um, but yeah,
I, um, think that's also just really helpful to name
that in a pluralistic society.
Uh, we haven't
found a really, um, helpful,
(26:44):
consistent way of talking about
Jesus mattering.
Um, yeah.
Okay. So
I wanna. I feel like
there's a lot more we could dig into there. But I do
wanna talk about a few
other pieces and then maybe circle
(27:06):
back to the proclamation piece
and the evangelism.
P. So, um, Loren was
really disappointed that he couldn't be part of
today's conversation. He's been wanting to talk to you for a
long time. And initially we tried to
coordinate all three of our schedules, but we failed.
So, um, anyway, he sent along a few
(27:26):
questions. So I'm going to just share one of his
questions with you. He says in
some evangelical circles, social justice
can be seen as a distraction from
evangelism as opposed to a necessary
part. Whereas it seems the opposite is true in
mainline circles that, uh, any talk of spiritual
conversion can be seen as a distraction
(27:49):
from social justice. So what are your thoughts about
that? What is the place of social
justice and being an agent of
societal change in the life of the church?
>> Ben Crosby (28:00):
Yeah, I think this is
another very good question. Um, so a
little bit about me that may be helpful for this.
So before I was a minister, um, I was a union
organizer, actually with the hotel workers
Union in Boston,
Massachusetts. Um, so spent
and spent a good deal of time in the sort
(28:22):
of labor organizing and kind of
labor politics world. It's one that I know well
and it's one that I care a lot about.
Um, and it's also one that I chose to leave when I
became a minister. And so,
you know, I think my
immediate answer is that.
(28:43):
I think. I think Loren is right to point this out. And I think
the sort of very
sharp division, um, between,
you know, sort of gospel proclamation
and, you know, kind of doing, um, sort of striving to do
good, strive for a just for society in the world,
um, is a mistake. Um, so that's
(29:03):
the first thing that I think that, you know, the evangelical
version that is sort of wholly unwilling to talk
about a kind of Christian social responsibility or the sort
of stereotyped evangelical Version and similar, particularly
the stereotyped sort of mainline version that
reduces Christianity to um, sort of
central left politics and nothing more. I think both of
those miss the mark. Um,
(29:26):
that said, I do think
that while there is a place for
both that sort of
proclamation, evangelism,
discipleship are. Are uniquely
the work of the institutional church in a way
that justice work isn't right.
(29:47):
I mean, I think, and this is something that I've said before,
if I thought that my primary
vocation as a Christian in the world
is to work for justice, and I think that that
is a good and holy and Christian
vocation, I would still be a union organizer.
I wouldn't be uh, a mainline Protestant
(30:07):
minister. I mean I, I think
there is a,
uh. Yeah, I think that
oftentimes those who really want to just sort of
hit hard on the kind of church as an organ
of justice, um, ironically just like
aren't terribly realistic about what,
you know, small
(30:28):
and shrinking denominations, um, actually
have the. The wherewithal to. To accomplish
concretely um, for the good of the
world. Um, and so I think that
much of the church's work sort of as
church as institution rather than churches as sort
of the body of Christ, all Christians
(30:49):
is to sort of give people
the nourishment theologically
and spiritually and the sort of grounding that
enables them to go out, um, in
their life, whatever it is, and
work for. For justice. And I think there are
certainly times and places where it is important for
(31:09):
the church as institution to
um, take a stand,
um, for sure. But
I really do worry that if we see
ourselves as primarily a uh,
not very good or effective social service
agency, uh, rather than primarily
about um, proclaiming the good news
(31:31):
of redemption in Jesus Christ and inviting
people into a life of gratitude following on
that, that we. That we've kind of missed the mark
and have. Have failed to
either pursue proclamation or pursue
justice, um, in the way that we are most suited to do.
>> Martha Tatarnic (31:49):
Yeah, I, um. To
some degree I find the. The
either or nature of that
conversation a bit confusing. And I
mean I say this as somebody who's life has been
entirely in the mainline church, but
even statistically
(32:09):
it seems here in Canada anyway
to be really clear that
churchgoing Christians,
um, are hugely
responsible for
um, underwriting the social safety net
in some pretty
(32:29):
extraordinary ways too.
Yeah, yeah. And that like, like
if that.
And you know, there's kind of a demographic
reality of
um, people not
younger people not being part of churches and also
not giving to charitable
(32:51):
organizations and not giving their time to charitable
organizations. And
um, I kind of look around my city
in particular and wonder about the
collapse of a lot of the feeding
programs and shelters that we like take for
granted if the mainline
church collapses. Right.
>> Ben Crosby (33:14):
No, I think that's right. I think that's absolutely
right. Yes,
yes. And um. Yes. No, I think that's
absolutely right. Sort of on the institutional level. Um,
and I think it's also true
that,
um, one of
the gifts the church can give people sort of committing to
(33:35):
that work is um,
providing the sort of theological grounding
for what they're doing in a way that will enable you
hopefully to avoid burnout or just
being sort of overwhelmed by the scope
of um, the world's suffering.
Um, you know, I mean, I
obviously there are, there are many, many people who are, who are
(33:58):
indeed, you know, sort of non religious who give very, very,
very sacrificially and amazingly for uh, you know, live
lives of service and justice for the world.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:06):
Yeah, for sure.
>> Ben Crosby (34:07):
As for me speaking personally though, you know,
I would have found the work that I did, you know, as a union
organizer so overwhelming and
impossible if I wasn't able to sort of take
it every night to uh, the Lord in prayer and then to sort of
trust that um, that God
is in fact sovereign and working all things for good and all
(34:27):
this. That otherwise.
Yeah. What I needed when I was
really in the sort of front
lines, um,
of kind of social justice, social
transformation work, was not a church
that was trying to sort of roll out a less good
programmatic version of what I was already doing, but a church that was
(34:50):
going to tell me the truth of the good news
of God's work for the world and Jesus and
how that this shows his love for all
creation and all of us and his determination to reconcile us
to Himself, you know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:03):
Yeah, I hear that. And you know, I think it's
something that I try to be aware of as a preacher
is that it is easy in the
mainline church to
um, get into,
as they say, just giving good advice or giving
people jobs to do, um,
and making sure that
(35:27):
I am proclaiming the good news,
that it's about grace,
um, because it's easy to fall into
that trap.
>> Ben Crosby (35:36):
No, I mean, one of my favorite
pieces of preaching advice that I've really tried
to uh, put to heart, uh,
and take to heart and put into practice in my own
preaching is from, um, Fleming Rutledge, who is
an Episcopal priest in the, in the States, um, who
says, you know, that she always tries
to end her sermons sort of not in the
(35:59):
imperative mood, but in the indicative. Not sort of giving people a
list of things to do, but announcing for them, you know,
what God has already done for them in Christ.
And it's not that. That's a sort, ah, of formula
that one must, you know, absolutely follow every time one gets up in
this pulpit, of course. But, uh, but it is something
that I've really tried to take
seriously in my own
(36:20):
preaching, um, to sort of
foreground, you know, even when I'm talking
about the good works that God has
prepared for us to walk in. Right. Uh, the sort of what the life of
discipleship and following Jesus looks like to try
to make it really clear that that's ultimately
a. Not something that we're doing to sort of earn our way into
God's favor and balance. Not something we're doing
(36:43):
of our own power, but something that's done, um, sort of by the power of
the Holy Spirit, um, you know, working in and through us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that's a
good rule of thumb from Fleming
Rutledge, for sure.
Um, I think that
this can be kind of related to the social justice
piece. But I think one of the things
that people took most issue with the
Goodhue article was where he
(37:12):
placed the blame on why the
ACC has fallen apart. That,
um, the Anglican
Church is too socially
progressive. And again,
as someone who has spent my whole life in the
mainline church, uh, this is a drumbeat
that I have heard very regularly,
(37:35):
um, throughout my whole life, which is
like, you're not going to grow a
church by being socially
progressive. If you anecdotally look
at, um, the
more evangelical churches that have
stronger, uh, stances against women in leadership
(37:55):
and equal marriage and some of these
other social issues, they're
the ones that are growing
and flourishing and meanwhile
were old and declining. And
surely it must be because of,
um, like this is not the
way that, uh,
(38:18):
the church needs to go. So,
um, I thought that you took
a pretty thoughtful, uh,
look at that. All too easy
conclusion to draw. What do you see
as being the, um, relationship between
progressive theology and church
decline?
>> Ben Crosby (38:40):
Yeah, I think that is a great
question. And I think I will say one of the things that I
found a little frustrating myself
about, uh, the Gidhue piece is I felt like he
wasn't. That there wasn't a lot of sort of
nuance, um, or clarity about what exactly he meant by just
saying, you know, oh, it's because of progressivism.
(39:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
I think that on one
hand it is true statistically that. That
the Sort of more socially progressive
denominations have tended, um, in, in
at least North America, um, to be sort of
declining faster. And, and yeah, to be declining
(39:21):
faster. It's also true
that being sort of theologically conservative is not
a sort of. Or, and specifically theologically
conservative in the sense of, you know, not having women in
leadership or sort of not, not affirming, um, same
gender marriage, that sort of thing, um, is not
a silver bullet, um, to prevent it either. You
(39:41):
know, I think we've seen, you know, some of the
sort of small. I mean actually the church that I grew up in, um, the Lutheran
Church, Missouri Synod, for example, um, it sort
of is facing, not quite as dire as ours, but a fairly
dire, um, demographic outlook. I mean even,
um, you know, the sort of Southern Baptist church in the
U.S. you know, sort of seems to be,
(40:01):
seems to be cresting. So that's the first thing I'd say is that this isn't,
you know, this relationship isn't, isn't sort of
set in stone, um, even if it does seem to generally
be true. And I think what I would really want to
say is as somebody who is personally committed to us, has sort of found himself
in the main line in large part because of commitments
to things like women in leadership or
(40:22):
LGBTQ inclusion, is
that there is
nothing theologically
necessary about those stances.
Also including the position
that evangelism doesn't matter or
sort of holiness of life is not important or you know, I
think for a variety of
(40:43):
complicated historical reasons,
um, the sort of social progressivism
and this particular sort of theological
liberalism have, have tended to go
together, but I don't think they
have to. Um, and I think
that there is a real opportunity, um, for
those of us who are committed
(41:06):
and committed, I dare say for, for many of us, certainly for
me, on sort of theological
grounds to these, these sort of questions of inclusion to,
to show that a,
um, that a thriving
church that nonetheless, you know,
welcomes women, welcomes LGBTQ people, et cetera,
you know, is in fact
(41:28):
possible. Um, and frankly, you know, I
think we uh,
if indeed um, as we are you know, often
often told that these, that we need to particularly sort
of foreground and then think about the kinds of
needs and experiences of the most marginalized and those who
have, you know, been, um, not had a place made for them in Christian
(41:48):
spaces, you know, I think that's actually all the more
reason to be concerned about,
about questions of, of decline and disappearance.
Right? I mean, where, you know, I, I
want my, my gay Christian friends to be
in a Church that, you know, welcomes both part. Uh,
both parts of that sort of enthusiastically. And. And
(42:08):
if these. And if our churches don't exist, that
won't exist, you know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:14):
Yeah, yeah. I think that
that's, um. You know, if
we go back to what you said earlier about,
like, knowing Jesus matters,
like, that's kind of the fundamental
point, um, that we're
working from. We're not working from
(42:34):
the point that, uh, therefore, you
know, we do
whatever it is to,
um, grow our churches. Like,
we. We want the starting point to
be knowing Jesus matters. And that's
right. Um, and
like, I certainly wouldn't know how to know
(42:56):
Jesus if I couldn't
be part of a church where
women in leadership is recognized and
where equal marriage is possible like
that. I like how you frame
that,
um, that
offering of church is really
(43:18):
essential for a lot of people to know Jesus.
>> Ben Crosby (43:21):
I think that's right. I think that's right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:24):
Yeah. And also I think statistics always
need to be, um,
examined, uh,
with a fine tooth comb. Because as I understand
it, m. The
evangelical churches are
suffering, um, from similar
levels of decline,
(43:47):
even if we're kind of further ahead
on the road of decline. So, um, I
appreciate your saying
it's appealing to think that it's just
sort of a magic bullet of if
you proclaim these particular,
um, social stances, then you will
(44:08):
have a thriving church. And I just think
that is fantasy.
>> Ben Crosby (44:12):
Um, no, I absolutely think that
is a fantasy. Although I also do want to say,
as I think I sort of said before, that even though
there is no silver bullet either way, and then ultimately God gives the
growth that these sort of commitments to
evangelism and discipleship that are often
associated more with people who
(44:33):
hold those views than the sort of social progressive views
that. That does make a difference for people coming to life
in Christ and for sort of having
thriving churches.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:43):
Okay, so that just brings me right back to what I
wanted to ask you next, because I did want to circle back to
that piece about evangelism.
So, you know, you noted, like, there are
some very unhelpful ways
of proclaiming the gospel,
especially in a pluralistic society.
So what do you think healthy and realistic
(45:06):
evangelism look like in our mainline
context?
>> Ben Crosby (45:11):
Yeah, another really great question.
Um, there's a book that I find myself
often going to that was. Was written
specifically for a. For a US Context, but I think
is sort of more broader than that is. It's a
book called, um, Unbinding
the A Real Life Evangelism
by Martha Grace Reese. And what this book
(45:32):
is, is that it comes out of a
big, um, Lilly Endowment. It's a US
foundation that funds a lot of sort of
Christian, and then specifically often sort of mainline Protestant
initiatives to look at
mainline churches across
denominations, um, who had sort of
consistently been able to
(45:54):
have, um, adult baptisms. Uh, and
the idea being that sort of adult baptisms, especially
in churches that practice infant
baptism, sort of tends to indicate, know, not
just people that are moving from one church to another, but people that are
actually, were not Christians sort of becoming
Christians.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:12):
Right.
>> Ben Crosby (46:13):
And it's a, uh, yeah, it's a book that I would, I would
really commend to people that are, that are interested in
sort of trying to think about these questions. I mean,
I think one of the things that she talks
about a lot, which I think
is also really important, is sort of how can we
build a culture in our congregations
(46:34):
where people feel
equipped and able to talk to other
people in their circles about their faith. Right.
Uh, you know, I think that we often
in the mainline are sort of so
anxious of coming off
as, um, you know, like,
(46:55):
uh, a street preacher or, you know, or like a, I don't
know, sort of Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon missionaries going toward a door
or whatever that we are, are kind of nervous to
talk about this at all. But, you know,
but if we have found something
really amazing, um,
as simple as, you know, a TV show that we think is
(47:18):
rad, we don't hesitate to talk to our friends and recommend
that. Right. And so I think maybe it's a silly
example, but I do think
that we need to sort of help our
people into a culture of like, low
stakes but honest sort of talking
about. But why it is that this matters to
them, why it is that knowing Jesus matters to
(47:40):
them, um, in a way that,
you know, then might lead them to
feeling able to invite people, um, and then
will lead to some of those people saying yes, and then
having their lives, pray, God, sort of
transformed as a result.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:57):
Yeah, that's a, uh, great resource to recommend
to our listeners. And you know, anecdotally, I'll just
say, like, I've always heard
that refrain that Anglicans aren't good at
talking about their faith. And
I just sometimes wonder whether, like,
we as people in leadership just
(48:20):
haven't bothered to ask because, like, when
I find that people
are very eager in my
congregations to share
about how prayer has made a
difference, how walking with Jesus has helped them
through hard times, how they have experienced
grace and the hand of God at work in their
(48:42):
Lives. I don't find that people
are unable to articulate those things. I
just. Just think maybe we haven't been listening
or, like, inviting. Right.
Like.
So, yeah, I think that,
uh,
I love that kind of being A starting point
(49:04):
is to name
our own experiences and
be able to share that.
Um, okay. When I
read the Goodhue article. When I read
your writing in response to it,
okay, saying, like, the Goodhue article
(49:26):
sounds like really bad news. The church that I serve
has collapsed. Um, it's just a matter of
time. But at the same time, I find
something pretty hopeful about that article
and about the conversation that
it has produced, because
I think sometimes it can feel like,
(49:48):
um, we're all just pretending.
And I have
a lot of time for.
I mean, that's why I'm involved in this podcast, for example,
like, for talking about what's really going on.
Um, I'm a really big believer in,
like, being honest about
(50:09):
where we are, because then you can
respond. Like, it's pretty hard to respond when
you're just pretending that things are different than they
are.
Um, how did you
feel about the Goodhue article? How do you feel about
these realities? Do you kind of share that sense
of hope?
>> Ben Crosby (50:29):
Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, yes. You know, first
of all, I think
there was, yes, an experience of. Of
relief and, you know, feeling like I'm not crazy when
I sort of see someone else willing to say, you know, no,
like things actually are bad and it's actually a
problem that they're bad. You know, I mean, I think, yes, it
(50:50):
feels.
Well, it's not my place to, you know, I
sort of. How do I want to put
this? Yeah, I'll just. I'll just
leave it with this. That, yes, I think there's a real sense of relief
in feeling that. The reality is that I also sort of
of see so keenly and worry about so
(51:11):
much, sort of seeing them, um, named
explicitly, sort of brought out into the light for us to
look at. I mean, I think of in so many
areas of life, and whether it's,
um, a lot of sort of therapeutic
methods or, you know, think of like, AA and 12 step
programs and sort of things like that. I mean, it's sort of an
axiom that, you know, you can't actually really start to get
(51:33):
better until you sort of stop denying that things are
wrong and actually admit,
um, that they are, you know, um. And so, yes,
I think in that sense, I
do find it. I do find it hopeful in
that. I think that the, uh, the way that we
are going to move through to a sort
(51:53):
of healthier place as, as
well as the acc, as. As sort of North American mainline
in general, that we're not going to get. We're not
going to get there without first being able to be honest
about where we're at, how we're doing
and what needs to change. And so in that sense,
I do find this a much more hopeful
(52:14):
conversation than
pretending that things will more or less
just continue to go along the way that they have.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:22):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, you know, if you were to be made
the head of a mainline denomination, like
nominations are open right now for Archbishop of
Canterbury, for example, like, just
saying. But, uh,
what would be your first move? Like what would be
top of the priority heap?
>> Ben Crosby (52:46):
Yeah, a great
and challenging question.
Um, but I think
the answer for me would be sort
of having to figure out,
trying to figure out how
every single thing we do as a
(53:08):
church is serving
evangelism and discipleship. I mean, it's something actually
that I really appreciate about the, uh, new presiding bishop
of the, uh, Episcopal Church that I think he has sort of been very
straightforward about saying, you know,
right. That we can't be
driven, um, that the sort of
(53:31):
institutional maintenance can't be in the driver's seat.
Right. Sort of maintaining the structures as they've been can't be maintained in the
driver's seat. Like, we need to be willing to ask some challenging
questions about sort of how
the things that we're doing sort of at the church
wide level really are serving the gospel
and be willing to let go of things that
(53:51):
may very well have been an important part of our church's
work at some point, but just sort of don't.
Don't make sense for the moment. And so, yeah, I think, you know,
whether. Whether it's. It's sort of institutional analysis
or whether it's, you know,
um, the sort of formation, um, of
clergy and laity just like, figuring out how
to keep that front and
(54:14):
sort of first and foremost and keeping that first and
foremost not sort of from a
place of anxiety about the like, continued existence
of our institution, but. But out of the,
like, good news that we get to share
about who God is. Um,
yeah, yeah, I think
(54:35):
that's. As I say, I've
been excited to see sort of some mainline leaders sort of seem
to take up that call. And that is the thing that, like, I
would most love to
see our leaders do. I, um,
think the thing that I'll sort of add as a
corollary of that and as I Think something that
is necessary, um, for our church to
(54:58):
have a, um, compelling public
witness to Christ. Um, is
thinking especially I suppose about England in this case with as you say, the new
Archbishop of Canterbury up, but also Canada
also, ah, the Episcopal Church,
um, really making it
clear that clergy misconduct was not something that was
(55:19):
going to be acceptable and sort of figuring
out what institutional changes
needed to happen, um,
so that um, our churches
were much safer places for, um,
people and where it was a lot more difficult for clergy
to um, get away with abusing the flocks under
(55:39):
their charge. Um, because, you know, you don't want to
invite people into an institution that's not going to be safe for them.
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:46):
Well, yeah, it is really hard
to follow Jesus in the life of an
institution where you,
um, experience abuse. Just
bottom line. Yeah,
I co sign that absolutely
100%. Well, thank you for all of those really
thoughtful answers to
(56:08):
some, I think, pretty critical
questions about what we're doing right now in
the life of the mainline church. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
back our closing
questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian and my
conversation with the Reverend Ben
Crosby. Um, we're just going to wrap up with
(56:31):
some closing questions and we always tell our
guests that you can take these questions as
seriously as you want. Um,
you can be flip and irreverent if you want. You
can be deep and serious if you want. Um,
our first closing question is
a slight variation on what I just asked you at the end
(56:52):
of our main part of the conversation. But if you
were Pope for the day,
um, what would that day look
like?
>> Ben Crosby (57:02):
Well, you know, as, ah, as, as someone who, you know,
studies the, the Protestant Reformation with all, you know,
deep love and affection for Roman Catholic friends, I'm, I'm
inclined to jokingly say, well, you know, dissolve the
Papacy.
But, you know, let's go with, um,
talked about the daily office at the beginning. Let's go with, you know,
mandate everyone pray morning, uh, and evening prayer
(57:25):
out of uh, Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer. So
we'll go with that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:30):
Okay. We're infiltrating the
Vatican. I like it.
What theologian or historical Christian
figure would you want to meet or bring back to
life?
>> Ben Crosby (57:44):
Oh, this is such a dangerous question to ask somebody
doing a PhD in church history.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:49):
I know I have a variety of like, answers.
I'm imagining you might say yes.
>> Ben Crosby (57:55):
I mean, Luther is someone who's been so important to
me. And so, I mean, I, yes, love to get to chat
with him or I do A lot of work on Richard Hooker, and
so of course it'd be lovely to talk with him. But
actually I've been thinking about bit lately, uh, mostly, uh,
because I've been reading her both for my
academic work and also for this, um, sort of Christian
(58:15):
formation group that I do for the church that I serve
in Montreal over zoom. Um,
about, um, Catherine Parr, who
is most as one of Henry's wives, but like,
is really a formidable theologian in her own
right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:29):
I know. And so influential.
>> Ben Crosby (58:33):
Influential. And so for today. But let's say
I would just love to have a good chat with Katherine
Parr.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:39):
Okay, I'm on board with that,
Becca. When Loren interviewed me for
this podcast before I was involved in hosting
it, my answer, of course was Anne Boleyn. But I'm glad to
get another one of Henry's, um, wives
in the mix.
Okay, what will history remember from our
current time and place?
>> Ben Crosby (59:01):
Yeah, I mean, I do think
that this really is a,
uh, dramatic. We are living in a moment of pretty
dramatic change for Christianity in, at the
very least, Europe, um,
and North America. Um, and I guess for
that matter, the sort of other places where there were, um, European
(59:22):
settler colonies like Australia and New Zealand, in that we
are seeing, um,
the end of, yeah,
some 15, 16 sort of
1700 years of kind of publicly supported
Christianity, whereby for
good and for ill. And I think it really was a mix
(59:43):
of both, you know, the
sort of Christians could count on
either explicit political
support or sort of implicit kind of cultural
support, um, for being
Christians. Um, and that era has now and then really quite,
quite suddenly, um,
shifted. And so I think, you know,
(01:00:06):
the shape of the church in the plate, you know, that will
emerge sort of out of this change, I think remains to be
seen. But I do really
think, and I hope this isn't just, you know, privileging
the moment that I happen to, uh, be living
in. But I do really think that, uh, you know, unless
Jesus comes back first, that,
uh, that church historians, uh, you
(01:00:28):
know, three, 400 years from now will be. Will be looking at
this moment as a. As a quite significant one in
Christian history.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:35):
Yeah, good answer.
Um, what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity? That's kind of dovetails
with what you just said.
>> Ben Crosby (01:00:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, my hope for
Christianity's future is, I guess, the,
the same hope that I have for it
all along, that we will continue
to, to be led by the
Spirit to faithfully proclaim the good news of Christ
crucified in every time and place, every cultural
context in which we find ourselves
(01:01:08):
and that, you know, God by his power would
use our own sort
of feeble words and actions to invite
people to new and abundant life in heaven.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:19):
Beautiful. Where can people find
more about you, Ben?
>> Ben Crosby (01:01:25):
Yes, um, probably the best place to read my writing and it's actually
the place where uh, this piece that we've been discussing
today was published is I have a substack blog,
uh, Ben
Crosby.substack.com.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:37):
And we'll include that in the show notes too.
>> Ben Crosby (01:01:39):
Wonderful. Um, I do also do some sort of
public facing writing in some other outlets.
Um, I write quite a bit, uh, especially
lately for Plough and the Anglican
Way. So those are two other places you can
Google and find some of my work if you are so interested.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:56):
Okay, that's great. Well, thank you so
much for our conversation today. I'm looking
forward to talking more with you about
some of these things. And uh, we always
end with the word of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
Ben.
>> Ben Crosby (01:02:12):
Amen. Uh, thank you so much, Martha. This has been a
lovely conversation.
>> Loren (01:02:23):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
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(01:02:44):
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Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha Tatarnick welcomes the Reverend Ben Crosby to the
show. Ben Crosby is a priest of the
Episcopal Church usa, currently serving in
the Anglican Church of Canada. He is also
a PhD student in ecclesiastical history
at, uh, McGill University, where he studies the
English Reformation. Ben is passionate
(01:07):
about church renewal in the contemporary mainline
Christian discipleship and spirituality, and what the
Christian past, especially the 16th century,
might have to say about Christian life today. He has
been published in Plough, the Anglin Way,
Earthen Altar, the Hour, and Faith
Lead. You can read more@Ben
(01:28):
Crosby.substack.com as always, please take
a moment to subscribe and review the
podcast. We appreciate it. Also, if you can share this episode
with a friend, you can connect with Martha and
Loren and Future Christian on Instagram.
Thanks, and as always, enjoy the show.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:54):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host for today's episode, Martha
Tatarnic. And today I'm really happy to be
joined by the Reverend Ben Crosby.
Welcome, Ben. It's so great to have been able to line
up this conversation with you.
>> Ben Crosby (02:10):
Thanks so much, Martha. Yes, really glad to be here.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:13):
And Ben is joining us from across the
pond, as they say. So we're
navigating some different time zones and,
uh, all of that jazz. But I'm so
grateful that we were able to make this work
in your busy schedule.
So let's, um, start with some opening
(02:33):
questions so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit.
Ben, maybe you can just share with us
a bit about your faith journey, what it has
looked like in the past and what it looks like
now.
>> Ben Crosby (02:46):
Absolutely. Um, so I am a priest
of the Episcopal Church in the United States, um,
currently serving in the Anglican
Church of Canada while I am pursuing a doctoral
studies, um, at McGill University in
Montreal. I, um, didn't grow up
Anglican, though. I actually grew up in the Lutheran
Church. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(03:08):
Oh, okay, yes, um, exactly.
Uh, found my way, uh, sort of around college
to the main line over Questions
like the place of women or LGBTQ people
in the church, um, and ended up
after spending some time sort of figuring
out the uh, Lutheran versus Anglican question, sort of
(03:29):
felt like the Episcopal Church in the States or
Anglican Church in Canada would sort of be the best home,
you know, pursued ordination.
Um, there have been a priest for
a couple of years now. Um, I
think for me one of the most important moments
of my faith journey
(03:49):
was um, a moment really in the middle
of college
where, well, the way I like to say it is I
think I was, I was finally forced to confront, um,
grace as reality and not just a sort of theological
postulate.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:05):
Right.
>> Ben Crosby (04:05):
You know, I, I, I, I grew up in a church that
certainly talked a lot about, about grace, about
salvation being God's work, not ours, about our,
our relationship with God not resting on our own
accomplishments and efforts, but as a sort of
type A high achiever in kind of North
American culture. I, uh, could say the right words, but
(04:25):
maybe didn't quite feel that in my heart. Um, but I think
had a, had a moment in college where I actually
really struggled, um, with
both, um, physical and mental illness. Had to take a
little time off from school and
finally, um, yes, forced, was forced to this
place where I could no longer achieve or
accomplish or sort of do much of
(04:47):
all or much of anything rather. And was
forced I think, to really
accept, um, God's love
and, and the love of those around me as something that
is, is not
earned by, by me, you know, ticking all the right
boxes, but it's just given out of, out of sheer and
unmerited love. Um, and so
(05:10):
I hope that, um, that
sharing the grace that I have received, um,
is at the heart of, of my own ministry and, and
Christian life today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:21):
Well, my gosh, as a fellow Type A,
can I ever relate to what you just said?
Yeah, um, it's
amazing how easily
I can slip into the striving
and the box ticking.
Ah. And yet God has a way
of confronting me with
(05:43):
my own weaknesses and with the reality of
grace.
So, yeah, um, do you want to just
tell our listeners a little bit about what you're doing now
and why you're across the pond?
>> Ben Crosby (05:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm doing,
as I said, a doctorate in church history right now at
McGill. I study the
Church of England during the reign of Queen
Elizabeth, uh, I, so the second half of the
16th century, um, looking at the relationship
between the, uh, Church of England and the
Reformed and Lutheran churches on the continent. Um,
(06:17):
and so I've had an opportunity with my Wife, who's actually also
a church history PhD student to, uh, spend a
year doing some research
abroad. Um, and so we have been in the
UK for a couple of months now, and we'll be
in, uh, Zurich for most of the rest of the spring. And
it's just been really a great
(06:37):
gift and blessing to, uh, get to spend time
in the places where it happened, uh, for the things that
I study and visit some, um,
some archives, see some manuscripts that I can't see
anywhere other than being in person and getting to,
uh. Yeah, meet with, um, some
Reformation scholars sort of over here and in
Switzerland.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:58):
Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, we have to have some offline
conversations because I'm working on a book
about Anne Boleyn and her influence on
the Reformation, and it's coming out next year.
So can we talk?
Uh, that would be really, really helpful.
>> Ben Crosby (07:14):
Yeah, that sounds like great fun. I would love to do that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:17):
Oh, my gosh. Okay. I had no idea that was your
topic. So this is just really
exciting. I find it hard
these days to talk about anything other than
16th century Tudor England. So,
um, yeah, God must have brought us
together for this conversation.
>> Ben Crosby (07:36):
Amen.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:38):
Okay, so, um, not
to take all our listeners down that rabbit hole
right now, but, uh, Ben, is there a
spiritual practice that, uh, is particularly
meaningful to you right now as you're in the midst of all,
ah, of these exciting, um,
studies and traveling abroad?
>> Ben Crosby (07:58):
Yeah, I think one of the things that has really
been the anchor of my spiritual life
for. For a long time now, actually for,
um.
Yeah, probably 15, 15 years. And, um,
was really instrumental in leading me to the Anglican Church,
actually, is the, uh, the daily office. So spending
(08:19):
some time in. In the morning and in the evening
praying psalms, sort of being steeped in scripture,
having. Yes. Uh, praying for
the. For the church, for the world. You know, I
think as someone for whom
extemporaneous prayer does not always
come easily, I think having
(08:40):
sort of words to say, words given to me by
God to say the words of the psalms, the words of
scripture, to sort of. To take in, to
internalize, to spend time with,
um, every day, day in, day out,
year in, year out, um, is
really such a blessing. Um, and so I
think. Yes, I think. I think the daily office,
(09:02):
morning and evening prayer, um, can't say enough
good things about it as sort of
grounding my spiritual life and
just my life in general.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:13):
Yeah, it's amazing how many people we talk
to in these interviews who
say. Who name that as, like, such a powerful
spiritual practice and not just Anglicans.
Um, I find it really interesting and you know, as
somebody who's quite like naturally
introverted, um, it is
the words that God gives us, but
(09:34):
it's also the words that connect us to
community even when we're alone, which
is I find extremely
powerful.
>> Ben Crosby (09:44):
No, that's really well said. There's something very special about
knowing even as you say, if you are just praying it by
yourself, that you are praying the same prayers that
Christians across the world are praying, that Christians
across time are praying. I mean it does feel
there's like this very. Yes. Concrete
way to uh, be part of the communion of
saints.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:05):
Yeah, yeah, you can really feel that.
All right, well thank you for um, just
giving us that little sketch. So I
want to talk about um, some
of your writing in particular, but let's just talk about
your writing in general to start with. Uh,
you write a regular substack
(10:25):
blog and um, you
reflect on a variety of topics that contribute
to the life the Anglican Church and I think
the church in general. Um,
are there like main areas of interest
for you as a Christian writer and leader?
Is there a theme to the blogs and articles that you write
(10:45):
or is it just sort of following
uh, the spirit?
>> Ben Crosby (10:51):
Yeah, good question. I mean I
think, you know, if I think about them, I think they
probably tend to fall into a couple of
overlapping categories. Um,
I think one, and I know we're going to be talking a little bit about
this, um, for most of our
conversation today is kind of the
question of the state of the mainline, um, about
(11:13):
what sort of renewal might look like
in the mainline, what sort of cleaving more closely
to Jesus might look like, um, for
us in this time of particular
sort of challenges and stresses in a lot of our church
bodies. Um, I think I'm
also interested in
(11:33):
discipleship and spirituality. Sort m
of thinking about what for me and what perhaps for
others as well, um, might be
a pathway into uh,
deeper life with Christ to a life that
is sort of patterned more fully
as a grateful response to what God has
(11:53):
done for us in Christ Jesus. Um,
and then the third, um, is really trying I
guess to bridge the gap a little bit between
my academic work and my more sort of public
facing writing or day to day ministry, sort of
asking um, what
church history and perhaps especially
(12:15):
the 16th century that I spend most of my time in, um,
as an academic, what it might have to
um, tell us to enrich
our lives of faith today. Um, so
renewal, um, discipleship and
spirituality and um, sort of
church history for the present. I think
those are the sorts of themes that I'm trying to, uh,
(12:37):
reflect and foster a conversation about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:40):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that those are
such important themes. And I really like
that you tie in the church history
piece into that conversation as well,
because I think that we're in such a
moment in history,
and I think that translates
into the life of the church as well, where, you know, if
(13:02):
we don't remember where we've been, I think it's really
hard to be faithful about where we're going.
>> Ben Crosby (13:08):
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:11):
Yeah.
Okay, so you got a lot of
air time, um, for an article that you
wrote just before Christmas called the Current State
of the Anglican Church. There was a lot
of online conversation about it. I know in
Anglican circles, um, it really packed
a punch. And,
(13:32):
um, obviously
we're having this conversation on future Christian
because I think that,
uh, the topic
is relevant way beyond just the
Anglican Church. Um, but we need
to kind of frame this article, the Current State
of the Anglican Church, uh, on
(13:54):
another article that came out this
past August and that also got a
lot of airtime. So I think we just need
to recap that initial article so
that then we can talk about your response to that
article. And if you'll indulge me for a
moment, I'm just gonna read directly
from your piece, um, that
(14:16):
article that you wrote where you recap
the August article. Hopefully our listeners are not
getting too confused by all of these
articles. Okay, so I'm just reading
from your piece,
um, this summary.
David Goodhue published a piece in the
(14:37):
Living Church's Covenant blog entitled the
Collapse of the Anglican Church of Canada,
in which he argued the Anglican Church of Canada
is the first province of the Anglican Communion
to have collapsed. He pointed out
a sharp decline in average Sunday attendance,
but stressed that attendance decline,
(14:57):
along with financial woes, are
lagging indicators. Rather, he
argued that the key metrics of
ecclesial health are baptism numbers
and age profile, and that on these
measures the ACC has already
collapsed with no recovery in
sight. He blames this decline in
(15:19):
particular on the Anglican Church of Canada,
Canada's progressivism, and in particular
a focus on progressive causes
which led to individual discipleship
and church growth being
minimized. So I think that
offers us a fair summary
of an article that
(15:41):
got a lot of Canadian
Anglicans really up in
arms. Um, and
I really, really appreciate there were a bunch of
responses to that David Goodhue
piece. Um, but I really appreciated
your response as a, uh,
very measured and thoughtful
(16:02):
response. And I think that,
um, having a Conversation with you
to kind of dig into some of those
claims that he makes is, um,
really important. And again, I
think it just needs to be stressed that
although this singled out the Anglican Church
of Canada, it really should put mainline
(16:24):
churches everywhere on blast
because, um, you know, the things
that he talks about are
relevant way beyond the acc.
So what do you think was most
helpful about this article or,
like, what most needed to
(16:45):
be heard in what David
Goodhue was arguing?
>> Ben Crosby (16:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think
he was
willing. The fact that he's coming from outside
the ACC might have made it easier for him to do so,
but, um, I think he was willing to just be
very blunt
about the
(17:14):
first of all, the sort of numerical realities
of our church right now, um, and of what
those numerical realities mean
for how we think about whether
or not, um, the church is doing,
um, what God has commissioned it to
do. So I think he
has, yeah, forced us,
(17:37):
you know, perhaps even in a, uh, in an
occasionally somewhat sharp way, um, to
really look hard at,
um, at how the church
is. Is doing. You know, I think it's. It's so
easy, um, to
look and see. Well, you know, we. We still have functioning
dioceses, we still have functioning parishes. You know, the kind of.
(17:58):
The institution is sort of, you know, still kind
of moving on. And it's. It's easy to look at that and just assume,
well, it, you know, it sort of always will. You know, things may not be great,
but they're more or less okay. Um, and I think
his article was an invitation to ask,
well, what if things aren't actually okay?
What if we really are in a crisis?
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:19):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So let's talk about that numbers game
a little bit because,
um, I mean, he certainly
says, and you agree with him, that numbers
do matter. Um, that
church growth, numbers and,
um, numbers of people attending
(18:41):
our churches, the ages of those people,
numbers being baptized, that this all
matters. Um,
so, you know, I want to talk about kind of
the pushback to that mattering, but what
would be like, kind of your main,
um, reason for saying, yeah, like these
(19:02):
statistics do tell us
truth?
>> Ben Crosby (19:07):
Yeah, I, um, think. I would say just
at the most basic level
that I think numbers matter
because I think people knowing
Jesus matters. And I think that the
not perhaps the only, but the normative
way that people come to know Jesus, um, is
(19:28):
through the ministry of the church.
Um, and so, you know, I
think that it's not just that.
Well, you know, for institutional maintenance,
we need to, you know, have people in the pews, although we do
for institutional Maintenance, um, it's not even
that for doing these sort of,
(19:48):
um, sort of social justice witness
that many in our church at present really, really want to
sort of foreground as thought as a central
part of what we do that you need to you know, have people
around to do that effectively. Although again you
do. But at the
most basic level I think that the numbers matter
(20:08):
because people being Christian
matters and that behind those
numbers at some level each of those numbers
is a person who
has come to know God
in Jesus, um, or
hasn't. Um, and so
(20:29):
yes, at the most basic level I think that numbers matter
because people knowing Jesus matters and those
numbers not perfectly sure, but
really do reflect that happening or not.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:40):
Yeah, uh, and I really appreciate your tying
like knowing Jesus to the life of the
church because you know the thing that I
kind of say all the time is like
if we want to walk with Jesus, then we are
stuck with each other. Like that is like the
church is kind of a non negotiable terms
(21:01):
of how Jesus set it up anyway. Like we
might wanna, we might be quite
tempted to think it would just be a lot easier to
follow Jesus on our own. Especially
when you know, the church can be so
frustrating and broken and
sinful and you know there's
lots of times I think that all of us just want to leave it
(21:23):
behind, but that's actually
not on the table. Like
as a um, possibility for
um, being a follower of Jesus, we do have
to um, be part of the life of
community.
>> Ben Crosby (21:39):
I think that's really well said. I mean if you look at, you
know, the language that Paul uses in his epistles
of being members of a body, I mean
that, that requires as you say, being together. I mean
the picture that we get of the church, uh,
throughout the book of Acts, it's sort of people
coming to know Jes and then coming
(21:59):
to live a life of worship and service
together as you say. I think it's non
negotiable when it comes to following Jesus.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:09):
Okay, so I have some of my own thoughts
about why um, there has been
reluctance to agree that
uh, stats and numbers
matter. Um, certainly there
is pushback in our mainline
circles around agreeing that
um, you can establish
(22:31):
church health simply based on the
metrics. But uh, what do you
think that pushback is about?
>> Ben Crosby (22:39):
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I think there are
a couple of things going on, at least it seems
to me. You know, I think there are those
who rightly enough want to
draw our attention to the fact that
the moments when the churches were
Larger, um, were also moments in which, you
(22:59):
know, our churches were failing to follow Jesus.
Well, and in some ways, I mean, in Canada, of course, we talk
a lot, as we should, about the relationship between
the church and indigenous peoples, the history of the residential
schools, so forth. And, um. So I
think people can get worried
that, you know, the sort of suggestion that, uh,
(23:20):
numbers matter is a call to, you
know, return entirely, um,
to sort of an earlier model of church
that was not perfect in some significant
ways. Right. You know, I think there's also
a very keen awareness, which I think is
true enough, that, you know, in moments in
which, um, Christianity is more
(23:42):
close, uh, more culturally supported
than it is now, you know, the mere fact then
that someone's going to church, um, doesn't
necessarily mean that they are a, uh, deeply committed
disciple of Jesus. That, you know, social pressures and things like
that, you, um, know, are sort of
caused a lot of people to go to church, um,
(24:02):
in the past. And then again,
true enough, as far as that goes, I mean, all things
considered, I'd rather have people in an opportunity
to hear the gospel than not. Uh,
but I do take the point. Um,
I do also think that.
And this is one, uh, conversation that I think we often
struggle to have because it's a hard one. But
(24:25):
I think that one of
the reasons there is pushback is that there is real
disagreement in our churches about whether or
not people following Jesus or not
actually matters. Right. You know, I think there's
a strain in our
church that says, well, you know, if people are, uh,
finding a way to live that
(24:47):
enables them to do good to their neighbor and find
meaning and so on, you know, does it really matter so
much, um, if that's, you know, under the auspices
of Christianity or
not? Um, you know, I think the
claim that there is something
unique about Jesus that means
(25:08):
that people should come and follow and devote their
lives to him, um, does rub
up against, um, some of the ways that I think
we are accustomed to talk and
live in an increasingly sort of pluralistic, to
say nothing of secular society. And,
you know, and certainly there are unhelpful ways to
(25:28):
make that argument to people. Um,
but I don't know. I just.
Both looking at the experience of my own life, looking at the
testimony of Scripture, I can't
really escape the claim that
if Jesus really is good news, he's good news for
everyone and that we have a responsibility to share
(25:49):
that good news with everyone.
Um, and I think that's something that there is
some genuine disagreement about in a lot of mainline Churches
today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that those are
two such insightful points
and I appreciate them being linked
to one another because, you know, I think
the piece around
recognizing that the numbers tell us something,
but they don't tell us the whole story is really
important. Like you can have churches full of
(26:22):
people and be really far away from Jesus,
um, in certain ways anyway.
Um, but yeah,
I, um, think that's also just really helpful to name
that in a pluralistic society.
Uh, we haven't
found a really, um, helpful,
(26:44):
consistent way of talking about
Jesus mattering.
Um, yeah.
Okay. So
I wanna. I feel like
there's a lot more we could dig into there. But I do
wanna talk about a few
other pieces and then maybe circle
(27:06):
back to the proclamation piece
and the evangelism.
P. So, um, Loren was
really disappointed that he couldn't be part of
today's conversation. He's been wanting to talk to you for a
long time. And initially we tried to
coordinate all three of our schedules, but we failed.
So, um, anyway, he sent along a few
(27:26):
questions. So I'm going to just share one of his
questions with you. He says in
some evangelical circles, social justice
can be seen as a distraction from
evangelism as opposed to a necessary
part. Whereas it seems the opposite is true in
mainline circles that, uh, any talk of spiritual
conversion can be seen as a distraction
(27:49):
from social justice. So what are your thoughts about
that? What is the place of social
justice and being an agent of
societal change in the life of the church?
>> Ben Crosby (28:00):
Yeah, I think this is
another very good question. Um, so a
little bit about me that may be helpful for this.
So before I was a minister, um, I was a union
organizer, actually with the hotel workers
Union in Boston,
Massachusetts. Um, so spent
and spent a good deal of time in the sort
(28:22):
of labor organizing and kind of
labor politics world. It's one that I know well
and it's one that I care a lot about.
Um, and it's also one that I chose to leave when I
became a minister. And so,
you know, I think my
immediate answer is that.
(28:43):
I think. I think Loren is right to point this out. And I think
the sort of very
sharp division, um, between,
you know, sort of gospel proclamation
and, you know, kind of doing, um, sort of striving to do
good, strive for a just for society in the world,
um, is a mistake. Um, so that's
(29:03):
the first thing that I think that, you know, the evangelical
version that is sort of wholly unwilling to talk
about a kind of Christian social responsibility or the sort
of stereotyped evangelical Version and similar, particularly
the stereotyped sort of mainline version that
reduces Christianity to um, sort of
central left politics and nothing more. I think both of
those miss the mark. Um,
(29:26):
that said, I do think
that while there is a place for
both that sort of
proclamation, evangelism,
discipleship are. Are uniquely
the work of the institutional church in a way
that justice work isn't right.
(29:47):
I mean, I think, and this is something that I've said before,
if I thought that my primary
vocation as a Christian in the world
is to work for justice, and I think that that
is a good and holy and Christian
vocation, I would still be a union organizer.
I wouldn't be uh, a mainline Protestant
(30:07):
minister. I mean I, I think
there is a,
uh. Yeah, I think that
oftentimes those who really want to just sort of
hit hard on the kind of church as an organ
of justice, um, ironically just like
aren't terribly realistic about what,
you know, small
(30:28):
and shrinking denominations, um, actually
have the. The wherewithal to. To accomplish
concretely um, for the good of the
world. Um, and so I think that
much of the church's work sort of as
church as institution rather than churches as sort
of the body of Christ, all Christians
(30:49):
is to sort of give people
the nourishment theologically
and spiritually and the sort of grounding that
enables them to go out, um, in
their life, whatever it is, and
work for. For justice. And I think there are
certainly times and places where it is important for
(31:09):
the church as institution to
um, take a stand,
um, for sure. But
I really do worry that if we see
ourselves as primarily a uh,
not very good or effective social service
agency, uh, rather than primarily
about um, proclaiming the good news
(31:31):
of redemption in Jesus Christ and inviting
people into a life of gratitude following on
that, that we. That we've kind of missed the mark
and have. Have failed to
either pursue proclamation or pursue
justice, um, in the way that we are most suited to do.
>> Martha Tatarnic (31:49):
Yeah, I, um. To
some degree I find the. The
either or nature of that
conversation a bit confusing. And I
mean I say this as somebody who's life has been
entirely in the mainline church, but
even statistically
(32:09):
it seems here in Canada anyway
to be really clear that
churchgoing Christians,
um, are hugely
responsible for
um, underwriting the social safety net
in some pretty
(32:29):
extraordinary ways too.
Yeah, yeah. And that like, like
if that.
And you know, there's kind of a demographic
reality of
um, people not
younger people not being part of churches and also
not giving to charitable
(32:51):
organizations and not giving their time to charitable
organizations. And
um, I kind of look around my city
in particular and wonder about the
collapse of a lot of the feeding
programs and shelters that we like take for
granted if the mainline
church collapses. Right.
>> Ben Crosby (33:14):
No, I think that's right. I think that's absolutely
right. Yes,
yes. And um. Yes. No, I think that's
absolutely right. Sort of on the institutional level. Um,
and I think it's also true
that,
um, one of
the gifts the church can give people sort of committing to
(33:35):
that work is um,
providing the sort of theological grounding
for what they're doing in a way that will enable you
hopefully to avoid burnout or just
being sort of overwhelmed by the scope
of um, the world's suffering.
Um, you know, I mean, I
obviously there are, there are many, many people who are, who are
(33:58):
indeed, you know, sort of non religious who give very, very,
very sacrificially and amazingly for uh, you know, live
lives of service and justice for the world.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:06):
Yeah, for sure.
>> Ben Crosby (34:07):
As for me speaking personally though, you know,
I would have found the work that I did, you know, as a union
organizer so overwhelming and
impossible if I wasn't able to sort of take
it every night to uh, the Lord in prayer and then to sort of
trust that um, that God
is in fact sovereign and working all things for good and all
(34:27):
this. That otherwise.
Yeah. What I needed when I was
really in the sort of front
lines, um,
of kind of social justice, social
transformation work, was not a church
that was trying to sort of roll out a less good
programmatic version of what I was already doing, but a church that was
(34:50):
going to tell me the truth of the good news
of God's work for the world and Jesus and
how that this shows his love for all
creation and all of us and his determination to reconcile us
to Himself, you know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:03):
Yeah, I hear that. And you know, I think it's
something that I try to be aware of as a preacher
is that it is easy in the
mainline church to
um, get into,
as they say, just giving good advice or giving
people jobs to do, um,
and making sure that
(35:27):
I am proclaiming the good news,
that it's about grace,
um, because it's easy to fall into
that trap.
>> Ben Crosby (35:36):
No, I mean, one of my favorite
pieces of preaching advice that I've really tried
to uh, put to heart, uh,
and take to heart and put into practice in my own
preaching is from, um, Fleming Rutledge, who is
an Episcopal priest in the, in the States, um, who
says, you know, that she always tries
to end her sermons sort of not in the
(35:59):
imperative mood, but in the indicative. Not sort of giving people a
list of things to do, but announcing for them, you know,
what God has already done for them in Christ.
And it's not that. That's a sort, ah, of formula
that one must, you know, absolutely follow every time one gets up in
this pulpit, of course. But, uh, but it is something
that I've really tried to take
seriously in my own
(36:20):
preaching, um, to sort of
foreground, you know, even when I'm talking
about the good works that God has
prepared for us to walk in. Right. Uh, the sort of what the life of
discipleship and following Jesus looks like to try
to make it really clear that that's ultimately
a. Not something that we're doing to sort of earn our way into
God's favor and balance. Not something we're doing
(36:43):
of our own power, but something that's done, um, sort of by the power of
the Holy Spirit, um, you know, working in and through us.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that's a
good rule of thumb from Fleming
Rutledge, for sure.
Um, I think that
this can be kind of related to the social justice
piece. But I think one of the things
that people took most issue with the
Goodhue article was where he
(37:12):
placed the blame on why the
ACC has fallen apart. That,
um, the Anglican
Church is too socially
progressive. And again,
as someone who has spent my whole life in the
mainline church, uh, this is a drumbeat
that I have heard very regularly,
(37:35):
um, throughout my whole life, which is
like, you're not going to grow a
church by being socially
progressive. If you anecdotally look
at, um, the
more evangelical churches that have
stronger, uh, stances against women in leadership
(37:55):
and equal marriage and some of these
other social issues, they're
the ones that are growing
and flourishing and meanwhile
were old and declining. And
surely it must be because of,
um, like this is not the
way that, uh,
(38:18):
the church needs to go. So,
um, I thought that you took
a pretty thoughtful, uh,
look at that. All too easy
conclusion to draw. What do you see
as being the, um, relationship between
progressive theology and church
decline?
>> Ben Crosby (38:40):
Yeah, I think that is a great
question. And I think I will say one of the things that I
found a little frustrating myself
about, uh, the Gidhue piece is I felt like he
wasn't. That there wasn't a lot of sort of
nuance, um, or clarity about what exactly he meant by just
saying, you know, oh, it's because of progressivism.
(39:01):
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know,
I think that on one
hand it is true statistically that. That
the Sort of more socially progressive
denominations have tended, um, in, in
at least North America, um, to be sort of
declining faster. And, and yeah, to be declining
(39:21):
faster. It's also true
that being sort of theologically conservative is not
a sort of. Or, and specifically theologically
conservative in the sense of, you know, not having women in
leadership or sort of not, not affirming, um, same
gender marriage, that sort of thing, um, is not
a silver bullet, um, to prevent it either. You
(39:41):
know, I think we've seen, you know, some of the
sort of small. I mean actually the church that I grew up in, um, the Lutheran
Church, Missouri Synod, for example, um, it sort
of is facing, not quite as dire as ours, but a fairly
dire, um, demographic outlook. I mean even,
um, you know, the sort of Southern Baptist church in the
U.S. you know, sort of seems to be,
(40:01):
seems to be cresting. So that's the first thing I'd say is that this isn't,
you know, this relationship isn't, isn't sort of
set in stone, um, even if it does seem to generally
be true. And I think what I would really want to
say is as somebody who is personally committed to us, has sort of found himself
in the main line in large part because of commitments
to things like women in leadership or
(40:22):
LGBTQ inclusion, is
that there is
nothing theologically
necessary about those stances.
Also including the position
that evangelism doesn't matter or
sort of holiness of life is not important or you know, I
think for a variety of
(40:43):
complicated historical reasons,
um, the sort of social progressivism
and this particular sort of theological
liberalism have, have tended to go
together, but I don't think they
have to. Um, and I think
that there is a real opportunity, um, for
those of us who are committed
(41:06):
and committed, I dare say for, for many of us, certainly for
me, on sort of theological
grounds to these, these sort of questions of inclusion to,
to show that a,
um, that a thriving
church that nonetheless, you know,
welcomes women, welcomes LGBTQ people, et cetera,
you know, is in fact
(41:28):
possible. Um, and frankly, you know, I
think we uh,
if indeed um, as we are you know, often
often told that these, that we need to particularly sort
of foreground and then think about the kinds of
needs and experiences of the most marginalized and those who
have, you know, been, um, not had a place made for them in Christian
(41:48):
spaces, you know, I think that's actually all the more
reason to be concerned about,
about questions of, of decline and disappearance.
Right? I mean, where, you know, I, I
want my, my gay Christian friends to be
in a Church that, you know, welcomes both part. Uh,
both parts of that sort of enthusiastically. And. And
(42:08):
if these. And if our churches don't exist, that
won't exist, you know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:14):
Yeah, yeah. I think that
that's, um. You know, if
we go back to what you said earlier about,
like, knowing Jesus matters,
like, that's kind of the fundamental
point, um, that we're
working from. We're not working from
(42:34):
the point that, uh, therefore, you
know, we do
whatever it is to,
um, grow our churches. Like,
we. We want the starting point to
be knowing Jesus matters. And that's
right. Um, and
like, I certainly wouldn't know how to know
(42:56):
Jesus if I couldn't
be part of a church where
women in leadership is recognized and
where equal marriage is possible like
that. I like how you frame
that,
um, that
offering of church is really
(43:18):
essential for a lot of people to know Jesus.
>> Ben Crosby (43:21):
I think that's right. I think that's right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:24):
Yeah. And also I think statistics always
need to be, um,
examined, uh,
with a fine tooth comb. Because as I understand
it, m. The
evangelical churches are
suffering, um, from similar
levels of decline,
(43:47):
even if we're kind of further ahead
on the road of decline. So, um, I
appreciate your saying
it's appealing to think that it's just
sort of a magic bullet of if
you proclaim these particular,
um, social stances, then you will
(44:08):
have a thriving church. And I just think
that is fantasy.
>> Ben Crosby (44:12):
Um, no, I absolutely think that
is a fantasy. Although I also do want to say,
as I think I sort of said before, that even though
there is no silver bullet either way, and then ultimately God gives the
growth that these sort of commitments to
evangelism and discipleship that are often
associated more with people who
(44:33):
hold those views than the sort of social progressive views
that. That does make a difference for people coming to life
in Christ and for sort of having
thriving churches.
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:43):
Okay, so that just brings me right back to what I
wanted to ask you next, because I did want to circle back to
that piece about evangelism.
So, you know, you noted, like, there are
some very unhelpful ways
of proclaiming the gospel,
especially in a pluralistic society.
So what do you think healthy and realistic
(45:06):
evangelism look like in our mainline
context?
>> Ben Crosby (45:11):
Yeah, another really great question.
Um, there's a book that I find myself
often going to that was. Was written
specifically for a. For a US Context, but I think
is sort of more broader than that is. It's a
book called, um, Unbinding
the A Real Life Evangelism
by Martha Grace Reese. And what this book
(45:32):
is, is that it comes out of a
big, um, Lilly Endowment. It's a US
foundation that funds a lot of sort of
Christian, and then specifically often sort of mainline Protestant
initiatives to look at
mainline churches across
denominations, um, who had sort of
consistently been able to
(45:54):
have, um, adult baptisms. Uh, and
the idea being that sort of adult baptisms, especially
in churches that practice infant
baptism, sort of tends to indicate, know, not
just people that are moving from one church to another, but people that are
actually, were not Christians sort of becoming
Christians.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:12):
Right.
>> Ben Crosby (46:13):
And it's a, uh, yeah, it's a book that I would, I would
really commend to people that are, that are interested in
sort of trying to think about these questions. I mean,
I think one of the things that she talks
about a lot, which I think
is also really important, is sort of how can we
build a culture in our congregations
(46:34):
where people feel
equipped and able to talk to other
people in their circles about their faith. Right.
Uh, you know, I think that we often
in the mainline are sort of so
anxious of coming off
as, um, you know, like,
(46:55):
uh, a street preacher or, you know, or like a, I don't
know, sort of Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon missionaries going toward a door
or whatever that we are, are kind of nervous to
talk about this at all. But, you know,
but if we have found something
really amazing, um,
as simple as, you know, a TV show that we think is
(47:18):
rad, we don't hesitate to talk to our friends and recommend
that. Right. And so I think maybe it's a silly
example, but I do think
that we need to sort of help our
people into a culture of like, low
stakes but honest sort of talking
about. But why it is that this matters to
them, why it is that knowing Jesus matters to
(47:40):
them, um, in a way that,
you know, then might lead them to
feeling able to invite people, um, and then
will lead to some of those people saying yes, and then
having their lives, pray, God, sort of
transformed as a result.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:57):
Yeah, that's a, uh, great resource to recommend
to our listeners. And you know, anecdotally, I'll just
say, like, I've always heard
that refrain that Anglicans aren't good at
talking about their faith. And
I just sometimes wonder whether, like,
we as people in leadership just
(48:20):
haven't bothered to ask because, like, when
I find that people
are very eager in my
congregations to share
about how prayer has made a
difference, how walking with Jesus has helped them
through hard times, how they have experienced
grace and the hand of God at work in their
(48:42):
Lives. I don't find that people
are unable to articulate those things. I
just. Just think maybe we haven't been listening
or, like, inviting. Right.
Like.
So, yeah, I think that,
uh,
I love that kind of being A starting point
(49:04):
is to name
our own experiences and
be able to share that.
Um, okay. When I
read the Goodhue article. When I read
your writing in response to it,
okay, saying, like, the Goodhue article
(49:26):
sounds like really bad news. The church that I serve
has collapsed. Um, it's just a matter of
time. But at the same time, I find
something pretty hopeful about that article
and about the conversation that
it has produced, because
I think sometimes it can feel like,
(49:48):
um, we're all just pretending.
And I have
a lot of time for.
I mean, that's why I'm involved in this podcast, for example,
like, for talking about what's really going on.
Um, I'm a really big believer in,
like, being honest about
(50:09):
where we are, because then you can
respond. Like, it's pretty hard to respond when
you're just pretending that things are different than they
are.
Um, how did you
feel about the Goodhue article? How do you feel about
these realities? Do you kind of share that sense
of hope?
>> Ben Crosby (50:29):
Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, yes. You know, first
of all, I think
there was, yes, an experience of. Of
relief and, you know, feeling like I'm not crazy when
I sort of see someone else willing to say, you know, no,
like things actually are bad and it's actually a
problem that they're bad. You know, I mean, I think, yes, it
(50:50):
feels.
Well, it's not my place to, you know, I
sort of. How do I want to put
this? Yeah, I'll just. I'll just
leave it with this. That, yes, I think there's a real sense of relief
in feeling that. The reality is that I also sort of
of see so keenly and worry about so
(51:11):
much, sort of seeing them, um, named
explicitly, sort of brought out into the light for us to
look at. I mean, I think of in so many
areas of life, and whether it's,
um, a lot of sort of therapeutic
methods or, you know, think of like, AA and 12 step
programs and sort of things like that. I mean, it's sort of an
axiom that, you know, you can't actually really start to get
(51:33):
better until you sort of stop denying that things are
wrong and actually admit,
um, that they are, you know, um. And so, yes,
I think in that sense, I
do find it. I do find it hopeful in
that. I think that the, uh, the way that we
are going to move through to a sort
(51:53):
of healthier place as, as
well as the acc, as. As sort of North American mainline
in general, that we're not going to get. We're not
going to get there without first being able to be honest
about where we're at, how we're doing
and what needs to change. And so in that sense,
I do find this a much more hopeful
(52:14):
conversation than
pretending that things will more or less
just continue to go along the way that they have.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:22):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, you know, if you were to be made
the head of a mainline denomination, like
nominations are open right now for Archbishop of
Canterbury, for example, like, just
saying. But, uh,
what would be your first move? Like what would be
top of the priority heap?
>> Ben Crosby (52:46):
Yeah, a great
and challenging question.
Um, but I think
the answer for me would be sort
of having to figure out,
trying to figure out how
every single thing we do as a
(53:08):
church is serving
evangelism and discipleship. I mean, it's something actually
that I really appreciate about the, uh, new presiding bishop
of the, uh, Episcopal Church that I think he has sort of been very
straightforward about saying, you know,
right. That we can't be
driven, um, that the sort of
(53:31):
institutional maintenance can't be in the driver's seat.
Right. Sort of maintaining the structures as they've been can't be maintained in the
driver's seat. Like, we need to be willing to ask some challenging
questions about sort of how
the things that we're doing sort of at the church
wide level really are serving the gospel
and be willing to let go of things that
(53:51):
may very well have been an important part of our church's
work at some point, but just sort of don't.
Don't make sense for the moment. And so, yeah, I think, you know,
whether. Whether it's. It's sort of institutional analysis
or whether it's, you know,
um, the sort of formation, um, of
clergy and laity just like, figuring out how
to keep that front and
(54:14):
sort of first and foremost and keeping that first and
foremost not sort of from a
place of anxiety about the like, continued existence
of our institution, but. But out of the,
like, good news that we get to share
about who God is. Um,
yeah, yeah, I think
(54:35):
that's. As I say, I've
been excited to see sort of some mainline leaders sort of seem
to take up that call. And that is the thing that, like, I
would most love to
see our leaders do. I, um,
think the thing that I'll sort of add as a
corollary of that and as I Think something that
is necessary, um, for our church to
(54:58):
have a, um, compelling public
witness to Christ. Um, is
thinking especially I suppose about England in this case with as you say, the new
Archbishop of Canterbury up, but also Canada
also, ah, the Episcopal Church,
um, really making it
clear that clergy misconduct was not something that was
(55:19):
going to be acceptable and sort of figuring
out what institutional changes
needed to happen, um,
so that um, our churches
were much safer places for, um,
people and where it was a lot more difficult for clergy
to um, get away with abusing the flocks under
(55:39):
their charge. Um, because, you know, you don't want to
invite people into an institution that's not going to be safe for them.
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:46):
Well, yeah, it is really hard
to follow Jesus in the life of an
institution where you,
um, experience abuse. Just
bottom line. Yeah,
I co sign that absolutely
100%. Well, thank you for all of those really
thoughtful answers to
(56:08):
some, I think, pretty critical
questions about what we're doing right now in
the life of the mainline church. Let's take a quick break and we'll come
back our closing
questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian and my
conversation with the Reverend Ben
Crosby. Um, we're just going to wrap up with
(56:31):
some closing questions and we always tell our
guests that you can take these questions as
seriously as you want. Um,
you can be flip and irreverent if you want. You
can be deep and serious if you want. Um,
our first closing question is
a slight variation on what I just asked you at the end
(56:52):
of our main part of the conversation. But if you
were Pope for the day,
um, what would that day look
like?
>> Ben Crosby (57:02):
Well, you know, as, ah, as, as someone who, you know,
studies the, the Protestant Reformation with all, you know,
deep love and affection for Roman Catholic friends, I'm, I'm
inclined to jokingly say, well, you know, dissolve the
Papacy.
But, you know, let's go with, um,
talked about the daily office at the beginning. Let's go with, you know,
mandate everyone pray morning, uh, and evening prayer
(57:25):
out of uh, Cranmer's Book of Common Prayer. So
we'll go with that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:30):
Okay. We're infiltrating the
Vatican. I like it.
What theologian or historical Christian
figure would you want to meet or bring back to
life?
>> Ben Crosby (57:44):
Oh, this is such a dangerous question to ask somebody
doing a PhD in church history.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:49):
I know I have a variety of like, answers.
I'm imagining you might say yes.
>> Ben Crosby (57:55):
I mean, Luther is someone who's been so important to
me. And so, I mean, I, yes, love to get to chat
with him or I do A lot of work on Richard Hooker, and
so of course it'd be lovely to talk with him. But
actually I've been thinking about bit lately, uh, mostly, uh,
because I've been reading her both for my
academic work and also for this, um, sort of Christian
(58:15):
formation group that I do for the church that I serve
in Montreal over zoom. Um,
about, um, Catherine Parr, who
is most as one of Henry's wives, but like,
is really a formidable theologian in her own
right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:29):
I know. And so influential.
>> Ben Crosby (58:33):
Influential. And so for today. But let's say
I would just love to have a good chat with Katherine
Parr.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:39):
Okay, I'm on board with that,
Becca. When Loren interviewed me for
this podcast before I was involved in hosting
it, my answer, of course was Anne Boleyn. But I'm glad to
get another one of Henry's, um, wives
in the mix.
Okay, what will history remember from our
current time and place?
>> Ben Crosby (59:01):
Yeah, I mean, I do think
that this really is a,
uh, dramatic. We are living in a moment of pretty
dramatic change for Christianity in, at the
very least, Europe, um,
and North America. Um, and I guess for
that matter, the sort of other places where there were, um, European
(59:22):
settler colonies like Australia and New Zealand, in that we
are seeing, um,
the end of, yeah,
some 15, 16 sort of
1700 years of kind of publicly supported
Christianity, whereby for
good and for ill. And I think it really was a mix
(59:43):
of both, you know, the
sort of Christians could count on
either explicit political
support or sort of implicit kind of cultural
support, um, for being
Christians. Um, and that era has now and then really quite,
quite suddenly, um,
shifted. And so I think, you know,
(01:00:06):
the shape of the church in the plate, you know, that will
emerge sort of out of this change, I think remains to be
seen. But I do really
think, and I hope this isn't just, you know, privileging
the moment that I happen to, uh, be living
in. But I do really think that, uh, you know, unless
Jesus comes back first, that,
uh, that church historians, uh, you
(01:00:28):
know, three, 400 years from now will be. Will be looking at
this moment as a. As a quite significant one in
Christian history.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:35):
Yeah, good answer.
Um, what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity? That's kind of dovetails
with what you just said.
>> Ben Crosby (01:00:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, my hope for
Christianity's future is, I guess, the,
the same hope that I have for it
all along, that we will continue
to, to be led by the
Spirit to faithfully proclaim the good news of Christ
crucified in every time and place, every cultural
context in which we find ourselves
(01:01:08):
and that, you know, God by his power would
use our own sort
of feeble words and actions to invite
people to new and abundant life in heaven.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:19):
Beautiful. Where can people find
more about you, Ben?
>> Ben Crosby (01:01:25):
Yes, um, probably the best place to read my writing and it's actually
the place where uh, this piece that we've been discussing
today was published is I have a substack blog,
uh, Ben
Crosby.substack.com.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:37):
And we'll include that in the show notes too.
>> Ben Crosby (01:01:39):
Wonderful. Um, I do also do some sort of
public facing writing in some other outlets.
Um, I write quite a bit, uh, especially
lately for Plough and the Anglican
Way. So those are two other places you can
Google and find some of my work if you are so interested.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:56):
Okay, that's great. Well, thank you so
much for our conversation today. I'm looking
forward to talking more with you about
some of these things. And uh, we always
end with the word of peace, so may God's peace be with you,
Ben.
>> Ben Crosby (01:02:12):
Amen. Uh, thank you so much, Martha. This has been a
lovely conversation.
>> Loren (01:02:23):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:02:44):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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