February 11, 2025 • 50 mins
How can churches truly become spaces for everyone? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Dan Kreiss and Ephraim Smith, co-authors of Church for Everyone: Building a Multi-Inclusive Community for Emerging Generations. Together, they explore how churches can move beyond silos of race, class, and ideology to truly reflect the diverse body of Christ. Dan and Ephraim discuss the shift from attractional mega-church models to localized, neighborhood-based faith communities, the growing need for multi-ethnic and multi-generational churches, and why the church should lead the way in reconciliation rather than follow secular models of inclusion. They also examine the tension between church as an institution vs. church as a gathered community and how leaders can navigate these complexities while engaging younger generations.
Dan Kreiss (DMin, George Fox University) is the associate minister for mission and community outreach at Roswell Presbyterian Church in the greater Atlanta area. He was previously professor of youth ministry and dean of the School of Missions at King University in Bristol, Tennessee.
Efrem Smith (DMin, Fuller Theological Seminary) is the colead pastor of Midtown Church, a thriving multiethnic community in Sacramento, California. His books include Raising Up Young Heroes and The Post-Black and Post-White Church. Learn more about Efrem and read his blog at influentalglobal.com. Follow him on X: @efremsmith.
Episodes Referenced:
Walter Strickland: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-zmhss-174b7a6
Brian Davis: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jd4vj-172854c
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dan
Kreiss and Ephraim Smith to the
program. Dan is the Associate
Minister for Mission and Community outreach
at uh, Roswell Presbyterian Church in the greater
Atlanta area. He was previously
professor of Youth ministry and dean of the
(01:06):
School of Missions at King University in
Bristol, Tennessee. Ephraim Smith
is the co lead pastor of Midtown
Church, a thriving multi ethnic
community in Sacramento, California.
His books include Raising Up Young
Heroes and the Post Black and
Post White Church. A reminder,
(01:29):
before we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaproah.com
with comments, questions or ideas for
(01:51):
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
the church.
>> Loren (02:07):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is
Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
today by Dan Kreiss and Ephraim uh,
Smith.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:16):
Hello.
>> Loren (02:17):
Welcome to the podcast.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:19):
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
>> Loren (02:21):
Yeah, thanks for, thanks for being here. Uh, let's
begin. We do have two of you. So, um, and we do.
It sounds like we have some time limitations, but Dan,
uh, start with you would just about your
journey of faith, your background, what that looks like and how you got to where
you're at today.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:37):
Sure. So, uh, yeah,
a journey of faith that could take a long time. But essentially I've spent a
whole lot of time, um, serving in ministry. Most
of that lay ministry, not pastoral ministry all over the
world. I spent about 17 years in New
Zealand working with indigenous peoples in New
Zealand and also as chaplain counselor of a
boys school. Uh, New Zealand. If you know anything about,
(03:00):
uh, Australia, New Zealand, it's very much a post
Christian nation where, you know, 4 or
5% maybe, uh, have any Christian
affiliation. So that's definitely influenced and
shaped uh, my understanding of
faith and the response particularly of
emerging generations. In returning back to the United States.
And so now just recently
(03:22):
was uh, serving as missions pastor at
Roswell Presbyterian Church, but just took a call and so
start in about two weeks, um, as head
of staff at Lake Murray Presbyterian Church just
outside of Columbia, South Carolina.
>> Loren (03:36):
Okay. Wow. It's
exciting.
>> Dan Kreiss (03:41):
It's something.
>> Loren (03:42):
Yeah. Ephraim, how
about you?
>> Ephraim Smith (03:46):
Yes, I am originally from Minneapolis,
Minnesota. And um, and
so I grew up in the church. I grew up in the African American
church, uh, in the uh, National Baptist
Convention, uh, but I also was
deeply impacted by an Evangelical Methodist
church that existed in Minneapolis, uh,
(04:07):
that became very multiracial over time. It was
a predominantly, well it was an
exclusively white church at one point. But
as the neighborhood changed because families like mine
moved in, many, uh, white churches had to
decide if they would stay, uh, in
these parts of the city of Minneapolis or would they move
(04:27):
to the suburbs and stay exclusively white
congregations. Park Avenue United Methodist Church
made the decision to stay in the community. They lost
a number of their members because of that. But over
time they regrew as a
multiracial, multi ethnic church. So I'm
simultaneously influenced by the
(04:47):
African American church and uh, the
evangelical multi ethnic church.
Gave my life to Christ in high school,
um, was a theater and
communications major in college. My wife's
grandfather, um, as well as my youth
pastor had a significant influence on me
seeing, sensing, ah, a call to
(05:09):
ministry. So um, I was a
youth uh, pastor, a high uh school
basketball coach in
Minneapolis, uh for about 12
years. Then planted a church called
the Sanctuary, uh, in a
denomination called the Evangelical Covenant Church
in 2003. Pastored that church for
(05:31):
seven years. From uh, there I became a
superintendent in our denomination. That's how I made
my way to California. And then the
last seven years I've been the co,
uh lead pastor at Midtown Covenant
Church we call ourselves, we're a
multicultural metropolitan
multi campus church, um,
(05:53):
in the heart of the city and beyond.
Uh, so that's what I'm up to now. Married
with uh, two adult daughters
and a son in law.
>> Loren (06:03):
Awesome. Share if you would. Ephraim and Dan will
ask you the same question too about spiritual practices.
Anything that's meaningful for you, you're willing to
share.
>> Ephraim Smith (06:13):
Yes, I mean for me, uh, prayer
walks have become uh, an important
part of my spiritual practice is just kind of you
know, getting out. You know, now that I live in
California and not Minnesota, I get outside all
year round basically. And so I just like
getting out and looking at the mountains, looking at the sky,
(06:33):
you know, spending uh, time with the Lord,
listening, walking uh, but
regular um, time in the Word,
not just for sermon development but for me
personally is important.
And um, I have a
small group of men that I'm involved with. And
(06:54):
so my spiritual practices include
prayer, silence
in the Word, but also being in a
smaller community of other brothers that
are journeying with me.
>> Loren (07:07):
Mhm. Dan, how about you?
>> Dan Kreiss (07:10):
Yeah, for me, uh, much like
Ephraim, I love the out of doors and spend a lot of
time on uh, my road bike actually is a good place
to meditate and pray. But I've just recently
been rereading uh, with a small
group, Richard Foster's classic celebration of
discipline and kind of going through some of those
spiritual practices. Again I can't. You know, I've read that as
(07:32):
you probably have too multiple times. But keep going back to it
and being reminded and refreshed about some, some
really critical things and turn. Including things
like uh, confession and how
that takes place both individually and
corporately. Um, the,
the practice of solitude is, is really important to
me. You know, I think of a, a cyclist. You probably, if
(07:54):
you're in your area, you might have big groups of people that kind
of annoy traffic. Why I'd go all by myself
and that's, you know, that's, that's solitude and
um, time for meditation while at the same time uh,
being out uh, in nature. So those practices are really important.
And like Ephraim too as a, as a
pastor, coming to the Word, not just
(08:15):
for preparation for
communicating to somebody else, but really for your own spiritual
nurture is critical.
>> Loren (08:23):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that you both. Let's get
into this book where we looking to
talk about today. Dan and Ephraim are the
authors of Church for
Building a Multi Inclusive Community
for Emerging Generations. So I'm not sure
which one of you wants to take this answer
(08:44):
but talk uh, about kind of the goals and aims of the book,
sort of how it came to be, all that stuff.
>> Ephraim Smith (08:49):
Well, I'll hand it over to Dan, uh,
because this project was his original idea
and I was very fortunate that uh,
he was open and agreed to allowing me to
join him in the development of this
resource.
>> Dan Kreiss (09:05):
Okay, well and also to be
fair, it wouldn't have existed were it not for Ephraim. So it's definitely
collaboration. But it came out of much of my
experience like uh, I said in New Zealand and then coming back to the
United States and wondering, uh, I have
four adult children of my own and wondering why
Emerging Generations felt so uh,
(09:25):
disconnected from the church. Both
in New Zealand where I was working but also,
and more significantly here because
in the United States there's much more of a culture
of church participation. And yet it seemed like
the rise of the nones as they call it. N o N E
s seemed um, to be significant, uh,
(09:46):
amongst emerging generations. And that's concerning for
multiple reasons, but not least of which is the faith development
of individuals. And so
this book came about ultimately because
of uh, my own experience in the
university setting and talking with young people
and research, uh, and
(10:07):
writing that I was doing for my doctor and recognizing
that there seemed to be some soft
barriers, uh, that were communicating
things to the emerging generations in the
church, uh, that were off
putting to them and were
communicating something other than what I believed
was God's intent for the church. And
(10:28):
so as continue to write that and some
of that is this inclusive nature that we seem to be
very siloed. Mhm. In our
congregations. And that can be based on
ethnicity, but it can also be based on uh,
political ideology or socioeconomic status
or all that stuff. And yet in every other aspect of
(10:48):
uh, young people's lives they're involved
in multidimensional relationships of
ethnicity and socioeconomic standing and educational
level. And yet the church seemed to stand
out as a stark
distinction of siloed
congregation. That did not seem to be what I felt God was
communicating the church to be. And so that's where it came about. And then
(11:10):
discussions with Ephraim, uh, we kind of
collaborated and realized that much of our
passion lined up. And so
that's really how this book came about.
>> Loren (11:22):
Yeah, I think one of the things that was interesting to me
is the way you try to have that
throughout the book as I read it, that kind of, that both
and nuance, uh,
tension holding both sides approach.
So one of the things that stood right out to me
was on page 38 you talk about how a church
should be both vertical in horizontal.
(11:44):
I think that's something that uh, I was just having this
conversation with as recording this, my
last guest, Dr. Walter Strickland.
Um, uh, in other conversations
I feel like this comes up too is this tension between
there's some churches that want to make Christianity
solely about me and God with no kind of practical
implications for our world today. And then I think
(12:07):
in some Christian circles there's this kind of like
Christianity is solely about me and my neighbor with really no
kind of supernatural implications. Talk about the
importance of Christianity and church being both
vertical as you say, and horizontal.
>> Ephraim Smith (12:22):
Yeah, I mean, well, for me personally, um,
this comes out of again my
being influenced both by The African American
Church and uh, the Evangelical church for
me now specifically a denomination called the
Evangelical Covenant, which originally was
called the Swedish Covenant Church, but then I joined,
(12:42):
so they had to change the name.
But the Swedish Covenant Church in its origins was
about pietism, that me and
God. That pietistic
nature of I'm in God's word, I'm in
prayer, um, I'm growing
in my relationship with God and it's
impacting my life, my
(13:04):
formation, uh, out of the
African American Church. It wasn't that the African American
church doesn't emphasize that at all, but there's a
strong emphasis, at least in my upbringing in
it, of liberation.
>> Dan Kreiss (13:17):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (13:17):
That Jesus set us free
from sin, but also set us free
from the shackles of slavery.
>> Loren (13:25):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (13:26):
That Jesus reconciles
us unto God,
uh, because Jesus is God. And so
we find intimacy again with God through,
through Christ Jesus. But Jesus
cares about the marginalized Samaritan
woman. And so that's how
for me, uh, my
(13:48):
pastoring, uh, uh,
has been informed by both the vertical and the
horizontal that yes,
sanctification is a
major part of the Christian life.
But I also believe liberation is
too. Ah. Because sin is
not just in the soul of individual
(14:10):
human beings. Sin is also in
systems, in society.
>> Dan Kreiss (14:15):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (14:16):
Sin is in structures, in ideologies,
in institutions. And so we need
a justice and righteousness biblically
that can live itself out through the church that
recognizes both of these dimensions of sin.
>> Loren (14:32):
Yeah. Something else that I want to talk about
here that I found interesting. And this came up
again, uh, in a previous conversation I had
with, uh, a guest, Brian Davis, who's
an evangelical worship leader. He talked
about in his context in
Denver, like, uh, many churches are moving.
Rather than the kind of mega church
(14:53):
commuter model. They're really trying to emphasize
a parish or neighborhood model approach to
church, which you all both write about. Dan, do you want to
talk about? Felt that shift from the kind of
huge attractional community church to really something
being more parish or neighborhood centered and
maybe define the word parish since
(15:14):
folks may not understand that in context.
>> Dan Kreiss (15:16):
Sure, yeah, we do write about that quite a bit. That the
parish model is essentially, uh, taking
the structure, the building of your congregation or
where you meet, and then, uh, drawing
a circle around a mile wide or
whatever. It comes from the English, the
Anglican church, um, and where the
parish would be the town, the local town, and the
(15:38):
vicar would be the vicar for that entire
community, whether or not the people in that community darkened the
doors on a Sunday morning for worship. That that
was the person you went to when it was, you know, time to get married,
or there was someone sick that needed to be visited or there was
a funeral to be had, and that's. That person was
ministering, uh, regardless of
their understanding of faith and
(16:01):
hopefully ministering to them so that they come to faith. But
that's the parish model. And so what we've
had in the United States has been this,
uh, attractive, uh, almost
a marketing
purpose for church. And you know,
we have this. We talk about it a little bit, you know, in
(16:21):
the book about the principle
where we need to find our niche market and we're going to
develop a church specifically for them to attract them from
all sorts of neighborhoods. Um, and
the parish model says, well, actually where
we're located, there are all kinds of people in this
neighborhood that come from all different backgrounds and
(16:43):
perspectives and ethnicities and all that
stuff, and they belong in the church and that we actually
grow and learn more in our own faith and our
understanding of God if our community is
more diverse. And so that's really what the parish model is
encouraging.
>> Loren (16:59):
Yeah.
>> Dan Kreiss (17:00):
And it also doesn't have to be huge. Then, you know, it's not
this megalith. So the book is not
necessarily speaking to how to make your church bigger.
Church for everyone doesn't mean we're going to blow the
doors out because there's so many people coming. What it means is
that in my community, I'm serving
everyone.
>> Loren (17:20):
Yeah. I think something, uh, that was
interesting is this shift of
again, being okay with.
Because again, when there's emphasis on kind of growth at
all costs. Right. There is this kind of shift of
what is the ultimate of value or it's the ultimate
of importance. Right. When it's growth at all
costs versus,
(17:42):
again, staying local, that
really, uh, changes the priorities. Right?
>> Ephraim Smith (17:52):
Yes, I would agree with that. I mean, and
you know, I pastor what would be
deemed a mega church, but,
uh, where I believe even for us, we
need to pay attention to this
parish model, this parish expression
is, um. One of
(18:12):
the things that I've noticed over the years is
that the emerging generations,
uh, they don't like sitting in the traffic that
my generation's willing to sit in to get to work.
There are people my age and older that live
in Sacramento because it's much, uh,
more affordable to buy a house in Sacramento. But
(18:34):
they're getting up at 4:30 in the morning and they're
commuting to the Bay Area for work. And then
they're getting home at like
7pm in the evening just to start it all
over again the next day. But
there's a younger generation of people that they're like, I
want to live, work close to where I work
and I want to ride my bike to work.
(18:58):
If I've got somewhat of a commute, I want to ride the light
rail train to work. And so
even when I was pastoring back in North
Minneapolis sanctuary, uh, Covenant Church,
there were folks coming to our church,
younger, in their 20s, early 30s. They're
like, I'm a part of this church because I'm a
(19:20):
public school teacher, uh, a mile from
here and my family moved here. This
is my first time living in the inner city. I grew up in
a rural town or I grew up in a second ring
suburb, but I'm white,
I'm teaching in a predominantly African American
and Hispanic middle school and I want to live in
(19:40):
this neighborhood. So,
um, that, that, that
is leading itself
towards, uh, not uh, only a parish
model of like, I want to go to church
where I live, but it's also creating a model
of what are we doing to address the social
ills in this community. I have a vested
(20:01):
interest in seeing justice and seeing
disparities dealt with because I live here
now and I'm not just watching this on the news.
>> Loren (20:10):
Yeah. And especially right when you're not driving by
it. Right.
>> Dan Kreiss (20:14):
Yes.
>> Loren (20:15):
Yeah.
>> Dan Kreiss (20:16):
And we want to make it clear, Loren, that this book is not a
formula for growing your church. At least not growing
it numerically. Uh, again,
the purpose of it is to make it more the church
that God desires it to be. And that does not necessarily mean
numbers. And a matter of fact, you know, as
Ephraim already attested to in his church, growing
up, like potentially by becoming more inclusive
(20:39):
or more diverse. Some people will leave because
they are uncomfortable with that. So we just need to
be aware that this, you know, we don't want this to be another one of
those, those books where people pick it up and think, oh, this is what I
got to do to, to make my church bigger and compete
with the guy down the road. That's, that's not it at all.
>> Loren (20:56):
Well, let's stay on that trend because I think one of the things that was
interesting to me that I, I think I kind of felt, but
I don't know if I've read on paper is you all,
uh, you all write that it's easier to start a
multi ethnic church than to become one. So Ephraim,
you certainly talked about that, you know, in your experience
growing up. Why? I mean, I suppose
(21:16):
it's obvious, but maybe Say it again. Like what. What
are some of the real challenges, uh, Ephraim, that
you experience? And Dan, you're welcome to speak in this as well,
that are sometimes too much to overcome. And
why starting that way is so much easier.
>> Ephraim Smith (21:31):
Yeah. Well, the American church
begins in the American story, good and
bad. And so the
church has its origins in
the racial origins, the
racial tragedy. Uh, that is
our historic story. And so the
church, uh, is birthed in the midst of
(21:53):
slavery. It navigates its way through
reconstruction into Jim Crow
segregation. And so, uh, the
older the church is, the
more it is deeply, uh,
rooted in the soil of a
racialized society and all that comes with
that. Um, uh,
(22:14):
and this is not to say, oh, that means this
church is racist or something like that. It could also
mean this church started as a church
for Swedish immigrants. It started as a
church for, uh, Italian
immigrants, German, uh, immigrants.
And so, uh, or the church is
(22:34):
white in its culture. So when churches
that are already predominantly
exclusively white or black,
uh, an expression of Asian or
Hispanic, attempt to become multi
ethnic, a lot of times their
diversity is still built on assimilation.
(22:54):
We want anybody to come, but you're
assimilating into the established
culture that is already here versus
when you plant a church, there's a better
opportunity to start it,
uh, from the standpoint of
reconciliation versus the
standpoint of assimilation. So I'll give you a quick
(23:15):
example. Ah. When we planted sanctuary
in Minneapolis when we first started,
um, we used to have these multi
ethnicities, uh, dinners. And I would
encourage people to bring a dish that represented
their upbringing, their culture. So we had the
enchiladas next to the collard greens next to
the fried rice. We had sweet potato pie and
(23:37):
pumpkin pie. And I would say to people,
except for issues of allergies,
I'm asking you to get a little bit of everything.
>> Loren (23:46):
Yeah.
>> Ephraim Smith (23:46):
Because as we digest one another's
foods, this church is going to be predicated
in part on digesting one another's
stories, one another's pain, one
another's triumphs, one another's
cultures. It's easier to do that when
you plant a church than when you step into an
established church. Though through
(24:08):
Dan's contribution, uh, to the book,
he focused a little more than I did
on, there's still a challenge to the established
church if it doesn't want to die. Because
it's one thing to say this book is not about.
This book is definitely not about church growth, but it's
also about we don't want our church
(24:29):
to die. M. It's already in
decline. And so this
commitment to, um, being
more inclusive while remaining
biblical will keep churches that have
been around 100 years from dying.
>> Loren (24:45):
Let's go into that, Dan, because y'all write in
the book about the importance of being willing to
experience discomfort, about why it's essential
for the dominant cultural group to permit other
voices. Again, uh, I'm thinking of like,
Ephraim talked about this
traditional church, whether it has roots
in an immigrant community, whether it's just a
(25:07):
long standing kind of white church that's been around, you
know, 100 years, 150 years, 70 years,
depending on the community, that they have this kind
of dominant tradition,
but they don't want to, they don't necessarily want to die. How
does one lead them? Like,
where does a pastor even start? I guess. I mean, I love
(25:28):
that idea from you, Ephraim, about, like, try
other foods, my goodness. But, uh, Dan, what do you
think? Where does one even start if you're trying to lead an existing church toward
change?
>> Dan Kreiss (25:38):
I mean, it can be what Ephraim's already
said, something as simple as that, to branch out.
And so when we talk about, uh, everyone
needs to feel a bit of discomfort, essentially what that
means is that I have to be willing to
put my preferences on
the shelf, recognizing that the way that I worship or
(25:58):
the order of service, or the foods that we eat at our potluck
dinners, or all those things are
oftentimes culturally established rather
than biblically established. And so that means
that, um, in order for
me to experience a more full expression of
worship and service and begin to work in areas of
justice and reconciliation, as Ephraim talks about,
(26:20):
I need to hear from different voices and understand different
perspectives. So as a leader, how do we help them
do that? And that's really challenging because
oftentimes, again, particularly in this
polarizing time of life
that we're in, particularly in the United States,
for some people that comes across as
(26:41):
political, uh, or
the kind of derogatory term now is woke
theology and all that kind of stuff. And that's not
the desire at all. The, uh, desire is
to kind of broaden our understanding and
realize what God is doing. And so
in the book, some, there's a whole chapter that says,
it says, whose idea was this? We go back through the
(27:04):
Old and New Testament to say, look, this was God's intent
from the beginning. And even the people of Israel who saw themselves
as God's chosen people
recognized that, you know, through
the writing, that, well, this is not just about
us. And so as a, as a Pastoral leader.
Sometimes, um, it means difficult conversations. Sometimes it means that
(27:25):
you need to be one on the, on the cutting edge of
beginning conversations with, uh, maybe
different congregations or different people in your
community. Begin those conversations and by doing that,
then open those conversations up to others
through shared, uh, meals
or combined worship services or
(27:46):
podcast interviews or whatever that your
community can slowly begin to digest.
>> Loren (27:53):
Yeah. Efraim, I'm looking at this quote from
153 about the assumption that often
takes place that God's work is
best done through our own cultures. And
I think many of us, if we're, even, if we're honest with
ourselves, we don't even recognize that we're
assuming that, um,
(28:13):
like, you know, how.
How have you led? How would
you. How would you. How have you led? How would you
advise leaders and pastors to
help lead their congregations and their people to
starting to be. To see their own,
um, their
(28:35):
own framework and how they're seeing the world through their
own lenses?
>> Ephraim Smith (28:39):
Yes. Well, first of
all, I know that it
becomes challenging talking about
race in the current landscape we're
in.
>> Loren (28:50):
Uh-huh.
>> Ephraim Smith (28:51):
And so we've, but we've got to find ways to talk about
race in ways that are healthy, that are
productive, that are fruitful and faithful. But saying,
I'm not talking about this to demean,
to demonize, to divide. I'm talking about this
because sometimes putting the truth on the table
allows us to live in community
(29:11):
better. So, uh, you know,
and I say that to say that we do have
to acknowledge that
the church religious experience
of white brothers and sisters has been
made the normative experience of church.
So it is only the church
(29:31):
of those deemed minority
people that the ethnic
minority, um, ah, title
or descriptor of is put on their church.
So it's like if somebody goes, I go to an African
American church, I go to a Korean church, I
go to a Hispanic church. Most white Christians don't
say, I go to this white church, uh, in
(29:54):
Phoenix, I go to this white church.
You know, outside of Philadelphia, they say, I go
to an evangelical church. I go to a gospel church. I
go to a Bible believing church, I go to a Presbyterian.
It's almost like I go to a church where Jesus is really
preached.
>> Loren (30:09):
Yeah.
>> Ephraim Smith (30:11):
And so the white church has been
made the normative, universal experience
of church. It's also been
described as, this is the
more enlightened. This is the place where you
can get a more clear understanding of who
is Jesus, who is the church, what is the gospel.
And so I think we have to Start by saying
(30:34):
no. Even the
predominantly Anglo white
church is cultural in
nature. There's parts of it that aren't.
They're more cultural than they are biblical.
So that's one. But the other thing I think
we have to unpack is,
uh, the
(30:56):
churches that Paul
and James and Peter were writing
to, we're
multicultural, multiethnic
churches trying to not just
stave off false teaching, but we're
really trying to figure out how to live in the community together.
This is why James, for instance, is like you
(31:17):
rich people, you oppress the poor and you're not paying them
fair wages. And basically what James is saying is
you rich people are sitting in church
with poor people that you're praising Jesus
on today and, and you're
going to go to work tomorrow and you're not going to pay them. Right,
Um, I got to write to you about this. Or uh,
(31:38):
uh, uh, Paul is saying, look,
Christ died so that all of us would die
on some level so that we wouldn't see each
other anymore from a worldly point of view. 2nd
Corinthians 5. And so I
think we have to acknowledge that there are some things that
we've made sacred in church
(31:59):
that are cultural so that we can get
to a more biblical experience of
reconciliation. Last thing I'll say about
this, uh, briefly is because
this book is about the emerging generations
and the kind of church they may be looking for
or they've already left the church of
their parents for
(32:21):
the parents and grandparents of the emerging
generation chose churches
based on the racially
segregated world in which they
lived. Their children are going to
work with people from the Middle east,
people from the Ukraine, Hmong
people, Filipino people. They're
(32:43):
on social media navigating a world.
My daughters have friends that look like the United
nations when they're all together. My
oldest daughter is African American. She married
a white guy.
>> Loren (32:56):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (32:57):
They're looking for a church that
can be home for both of them. So interracial
marriage is up in the United States.
Adopting children across race is
up in the United States. The number
of children born of mixed
race is up in the United
States. So people are looking for
(33:19):
a church not based on their parents and grandparents
experience, but on their multicultural, multi
ethnic experience right now.
>> Loren (33:27):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I want to come back to
that emerging, the question about emerging
generations, because I think that's a super important
question for the church, broadly speaking, today. But
Dan, I want to ask this real quick too.
I think it's an easy
tendency, especially amongst white churches, is
to Kind of like,
(33:50):
hey, the past is the past.
You know, it is what it is.
How do you all write about the importance of not
forgetting the past to move into the future?
How do you lead congregations
to engage with the past as they look to the
Future?
>> Dan Kreiss (34:09):
Yeah, well, C.S. lewis, uh, talks about that in terms
of a, uh, math equation.
>> Loren (34:13):
Right.
>> Dan Kreiss (34:13):
And if you're kind of getting the. You get to
the end, you can't just change it from there, but you have to
go back and address the issues back into. In the
equation to kind of get a different root result.
And that's essentially what we're saying. You're right
in many ways. We can't go back and change the
past, but we can go back and acknowledge the past
and recognize what place, uh, our congregation, even if
(34:36):
I wasn't alive at that time, our congregation played in
that, um, and then
work to apologize,
uh, and change the way that we do things
going forward so that we don't continue to
proffer those ideologies or those
things unintentionally. And again, sometimes we do that,
(34:56):
uh, just because this is our culture, this is how we do
things, makes, uh, me very
uncomfortable. My tradition
in the Presbyterian Church, they have often,
what's called. Well, it's usually
on, uh, All Saints
Day, they'll do what's called
Heritage, uh, Sunday, and Heritage Sunday,
(35:19):
they'll bring bagpipes in and they'll parade all the
tartans in and all kinds of stuff. Because, you know,
traditionally the Presbyterian church comes from the
Scottish area, and that's not a bad thing. We want to
embrace some of that heritage. But
Heritage Sunday, what it. What it also does
is it minimizes or,
uh, chooses to ignore what
(35:42):
that church did or what those people did when they came to
the United States. Yeah, our heritage. What part of our
heritage was, uh, enslaving
people who looked different than us?
Um, and so without acknowledging that and just coming
in, being proud of our heritage and minimizing
that which, uh, was wrong or
sinful in our heritage, um, is
(36:04):
not healthy. And again, I think emerging generations
look at that and go, there's a tension
here. There's something here that you're
completely ignoring that's we,
uh, need to address in order to move forward, in order to be more
who God wants our congregation to be. And so, again,
as a leader is sometimes having to speak those
(36:25):
things out loud.
>> Loren (36:26):
Yeah. I want to come back to
the question about the future church.
And, you know, Ephraim, if I heard
you write it, it almost sounds like you're Saying like the future church is multi
ethnic. A, like do you think that's true? And B,
what. How do we start leading
that shift and preparing churches for that
(36:47):
shift?
>> Ephraim Smith (36:49):
Yeah, I do believe that
um, there are not enough
multi ethnic churches
to accommodate the growing
population that will be desirous of
that kind of faith community. I don't
know as of yet if the multi ethnic church
will become um, the,
(37:12):
the dominant church if the majority
of churches. But we see growth in the multi ethnic church.
We, we, we see it going from you know,
less than 10% to close to
20% to more than that now that
it, it. And, and so uh,
what. There, there was a um,
Newsweek article that came out in the year 2000
(37:34):
called Color My World. So it was the
May 2000 issue
of Newsweek. So that's
24 years ago. Right. So uh, it
said at that time that
30 years before in the 1970s,
1 in 100 children born in
America were born of mixed race. 1 in
(37:57):
100 it said at that time, by
2000 it was 1 in 19
and in states like California, Illinois,
New York, it was 1 in 10.
So now we're 24 years since that
article was written. So I
uh. And because the church is in decline,
(38:18):
there's other books that aren't necessarily
focused on multiethnic. But David
Olson, oh, this was back in
2000,
uh, 10, uh, or so wrote
the book the American Church in Crisis.
>> Loren (38:33):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (38:34):
And talking about the decline of the American
church. And towards the end of the book he did
lift up the multi ethnic church as
part of the hope of
uh, addressing ah, the
decline. So I just think that
uh, again if we continue to be an ever increasing
(38:54):
multi ethnic, multicultural,
multiracial nation and we want
to be evangelistic and disciple,
making that in and of itself will call
for the need for more multiethnic
congregations.
>> Loren (39:11):
Yeah, Dan, let's. You know, you mentioned off
the top you've done a lot of work in New Zealand and uh,
in what might be called a post Christian
society. I'm thinking there's certainly that
trend, Right. We might say broadly speaking in America of
certainly moving from at least the post Christian dom society.
Like does a multi ethnic
(39:31):
church resonate more with young people or young adults? Like
talk more about how a uh, multi ethnic church might be
more conducive to their context and
culture and making uh, them engage, helping
them engage with the faith.
>> Dan Kreiss (39:45):
Right. One of the things that Ephraim says in
the book, and it's a quote from when I interviewed him
for my own research, was it may not
be the main reason why emerging generations
are walking away from the church, but it gives them one more
excuse, it's one more thing
that this is a way that seems like the
church is not anything
(40:07):
like the rest of my reality. And
so, um, I
think there's multiple aspects to why
emerging generations are disengaging from the church. I
do think that the multi inclusive church,
uh, is more reflective of one who God desires
the church to be or what God desires the church to be and also will
resonate, uh, more with emerging generations.
(40:30):
But I also think that there are other cultural things that are
happening. I think that this church may remain
in decline, uh, even with the growth
of the multi ethnic church just because of
other forces that are happening in society. But that
doesn't, again, that doesn't mean that
we, that this isn't something we should pursue. And again, I
(40:50):
think for me the desire to write this book and pursue
this, yes, we want the church to remain vital and
vibrant because of the message of the
gospel and because of what Jesus has done. And because I believe,
as I believe Ephraim believes, that the church is
the best place to reconcile our
culture. But that's not the
purpose for this. The purpose for this ultimately is
(41:13):
that we can be the people of God, the family of
God that God desired from the beginning. And I
think that's what's going to resonate with young people
most substantially. And again, this is not
a guarantee, um, by pursuing
multi ethnicity or pursuing multi inclusivity
that we're going to stave off a decline
(41:34):
in faith just because again, some of the other
pressures. But faith is growing in many areas.
Um, when
Ephraim talked about the,
the decline of the church, who was that author?
Ephraim?
>> Ephraim Smith (41:50):
Yeah, David Olson. David Olson used to be
the um, executive, uh, minister
for church, ah, growth and evangelism,
uh, in our denomination.
>> Dan Kreiss (41:59):
Right. And so some of that is, and people will look
at that and think, oh, you know, churches are closing all over the place, therefore
the church is in decline. And numerically that is
true. But what they're often referring to again is the
normative church. What's the normative church? It's the
white middle class church. Yes, they're in
decline, but that doesn't mean that the church
universally in our nation or around the world is in
(42:22):
decline. Matter of fact, in some places of the world it's
exploding.
>> Loren (42:27):
Yeah. Ephraim, let's have you close with
this. Um, if I heard that right, Dan
quoted you from your interview with
him that the church is the best place to
reconcile culture. I think,
whether it's societally this idea that church is outdated
and irrelevant. While I think
(42:48):
there's some voices right within the church who think
church is too much of the problem, too, uh,
much aligned with this or that or the other, or too broken.
Why do you think, again, if I'm understanding you
correctly, why do you think that church is the best place to
lead and reconcile?
>> Ephraim Smith (43:05):
Well, one, the church has
some biblical mandates, uh, to love your
neighbor as yourself. Uh,
and the definition of neighbor goes beyond, uh,
your specific ethnicity or nationality or
tribe. We have the great commission to
make disciples of all nations.
(43:25):
We also, in places like 2 Corinthians,
chapter 5 and even other places in Ephesians, have the
call to reconciliation. And that call to
reconciliation not only includes being
reconciled to God in Christ Jesus, but
again because,
uh, the churches weren't coming
from the homogeneous place that the
(43:47):
American church is coming from. Reconciliation
did really mean, will Jews and gentiles live
harmoniously in this community? And
so, uh, I believe that the
church with its flaws still
remains the only institution, the
only movement where unity,
(44:08):
where reconciliation is a
priority
is a mandate.
If corporations are
diverse, but their mandate is to sell
products and to make money.
Uh, politics, we recently
witnessed this. There's a winner and a loser.
(44:30):
And so the politics of
America is not set up for
unity. It's set up for, within a
two party system to say this party
won. So now this party gets to
decide, this party gets to enforce its
mandate on all people. The church, the
Christian church remains the one
(44:52):
place in my mind where
uh, reconciliation, unity
in Christ Jesus is not supposed to be an
option.
>> Loren (45:02):
Yeah, I'm thinking again, like the last few
years, right. So many corporations have gone to
DEI approaches and then when they've gotten
pushback on that, they're like, oh, never mind,
like it's not convenient for our business,
money uh, making endeavor. So we're just gonna like
quietly shelf that.
>> Ephraim Smith (45:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean the
original reason why corporations drift towards
DEI is they're making customer based
decisions.
>> Loren (45:31):
Right, Right.
>> Ephraim Smith (45:32):
If, if Pepsi knew they could be a
billion dollar corporation and only sell Pepsi
to white people, they would be doing that.
But they go, oh my gosh,
black people and brown people are drinking Pepsi
and we, and we need to take it, we need to get into that
market or Coca Cola is going to just rule
(45:53):
there. So let's hire an African American
and let's study how we can get more African
Americans, more black and brown people drinking Pepsi. So I
mean Corporations, I mean, man, I really
made that really, really sound
bad.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:08):
But.
>> Ephraim Smith (46:09):
But companies make customer based
decisions. The church is supposed to make
kingdom based decisions.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:16):
Yes.
>> Loren (46:17):
Yeah, I gotta write that down.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:19):
Yeah. Which is very different, man.
>> Ephraim Smith (46:20):
I did. I was.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:21):
Sounds good. Look, Loren, the challenge,
I think, uh, when looking at the church,
uh, is that we've been through a lot with
the pandemic and then the racial unrest and all that stuff.
And the church should have been the exemplar. The church should have been
one that public
entities and corporations and
(46:42):
political uh, establishments should have been going to and said,
how do you do this? How do you
reconcile? Because we see that you are doing it effectively and
efficiently and you are doing it in a way where everyone's included. And
yet when those things happened, nobody turned to the
church. Because the world, for whatever reason,
doesn't see the church as having the answer to that. Because I don't think
(47:02):
we've exemplified what God desires the church
to be. And uh, again, had we been living it out
the way we were meant to live it out, I think
that would have been the turning point. That uh, they were like, you know,
when all this unrest happens, well, let's go to
our church leaders because they know how to do this
reconciliation. They know how to, to be
(47:23):
inclusive in a way that we don't. But they looked at the church and thought they're
just like us. Maybe even more, uh,
siloed than we are.
>> Loren (47:31):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Um, I know we're running out of time here, so let's just do
this. The book is church for
everyone, building a multi
inclusive community for emerging generations.
Uh, Dan and Ephraim, do you want to just bother share how folks can
connect with you? Get the book, all that stuff,
(47:53):
uh.
>> Ephraim Smith (47:53):
For me, uh, you can just uh, find me Ephraim
Smith on Instagram, on Facebook.
I uh, encourage you to go to Midtownchurch, uh,
uh.org uh to look us up
that way. Uh, but uh, definitely
encourage you uh, to pick up the book
wherever you can get books. Amazon
Bookstores, uh, and uh,
(48:15):
again for me it's an honor to
partner with uh, Dan. We're on
this project.
>> Dan Kreiss (48:24):
Uh, uh, my contact details are changing because in
two weeks I'm in a new location. But the uh, church will
be a Lake Murray Presbyterian, uh,
in Chapin, South Carolina. But again, just like
Ephrem Dan Christ at Instagram or on
Facebook and we'd encourage you to. And I just
finished an eight week study of the book in my,
(48:44):
my previous church, uh, with about
80 people. And it was a fantastic way to kind
of have some challenging dialogue and discussion
with multi generations. And I would encourage
pastors or leaders, elders or whatever to pick that up and
do it as a group study because it was
powerful.
>> Loren (49:03):
All right, so I guess before I'll, uh, make sure I get with you
when the show notes come out to make sure we get update, uh, contact
links for the show notes. But gentlemen, uh, really appreciate
your time. Really appreciate the conversation. Thank, uh, you
for contribution of the book and for this conversation
today. So I always leave folks with a word of peace.
So, uh, may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (49:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(49:52):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dan
Kreiss and Ephraim Smith to the
program. Dan is the Associate
Minister for Mission and Community outreach
at uh, Roswell Presbyterian Church in the greater
Atlanta area. He was previously
professor of Youth ministry and dean of the
(01:06):
School of Missions at King University in
Bristol, Tennessee. Ephraim Smith
is the co lead pastor of Midtown
Church, a thriving multi ethnic
community in Sacramento, California.
His books include Raising Up Young
Heroes and the Post Black and
Post White Church. A reminder,
(01:29):
before we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaproah.com
with comments, questions or ideas for
(01:51):
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future of
the church.
>> Loren (02:07):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is
Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined
today by Dan Kreiss and Ephraim uh,
Smith.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:16):
Hello.
>> Loren (02:17):
Welcome to the podcast.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:19):
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
>> Loren (02:21):
Yeah, thanks for, thanks for being here. Uh, let's
begin. We do have two of you. So, um, and we do.
It sounds like we have some time limitations, but Dan,
uh, start with you would just about your
journey of faith, your background, what that looks like and how you got to where
you're at today.
>> Dan Kreiss (02:37):
Sure. So, uh, yeah,
a journey of faith that could take a long time. But essentially I've spent a
whole lot of time, um, serving in ministry. Most
of that lay ministry, not pastoral ministry all over the
world. I spent about 17 years in New
Zealand working with indigenous peoples in New
Zealand and also as chaplain counselor of a
boys school. Uh, New Zealand. If you know anything about,
(03:00):
uh, Australia, New Zealand, it's very much a post
Christian nation where, you know, 4 or
5% maybe, uh, have any Christian
affiliation. So that's definitely influenced and
shaped uh, my understanding of
faith and the response particularly of
emerging generations. In returning back to the United States.
And so now just recently
(03:22):
was uh, serving as missions pastor at
Roswell Presbyterian Church, but just took a call and so
start in about two weeks, um, as head
of staff at Lake Murray Presbyterian Church just
outside of Columbia, South Carolina.
>> Loren (03:36):
Okay. Wow. It's
exciting.
>> Dan Kreiss (03:41):
It's something.
>> Loren (03:42):
Yeah. Ephraim, how
about you?
>> Ephraim Smith (03:46):
Yes, I am originally from Minneapolis,
Minnesota. And um, and
so I grew up in the church. I grew up in the African American
church, uh, in the uh, National Baptist
Convention, uh, but I also was
deeply impacted by an Evangelical Methodist
church that existed in Minneapolis, uh,
(04:07):
that became very multiracial over time. It was
a predominantly, well it was an
exclusively white church at one point. But
as the neighborhood changed because families like mine
moved in, many, uh, white churches had to
decide if they would stay, uh, in
these parts of the city of Minneapolis or would they move
(04:27):
to the suburbs and stay exclusively white
congregations. Park Avenue United Methodist Church
made the decision to stay in the community. They lost
a number of their members because of that. But over
time they regrew as a
multiracial, multi ethnic church. So I'm
simultaneously influenced by the
(04:47):
African American church and uh, the
evangelical multi ethnic church.
Gave my life to Christ in high school,
um, was a theater and
communications major in college. My wife's
grandfather, um, as well as my youth
pastor had a significant influence on me
seeing, sensing, ah, a call to
(05:09):
ministry. So um, I was a
youth uh, pastor, a high uh school
basketball coach in
Minneapolis, uh for about 12
years. Then planted a church called
the Sanctuary, uh, in a
denomination called the Evangelical Covenant Church
in 2003. Pastored that church for
(05:31):
seven years. From uh, there I became a
superintendent in our denomination. That's how I made
my way to California. And then the
last seven years I've been the co,
uh lead pastor at Midtown Covenant
Church we call ourselves, we're a
multicultural metropolitan
multi campus church, um,
(05:53):
in the heart of the city and beyond.
Uh, so that's what I'm up to now. Married
with uh, two adult daughters
and a son in law.
>> Loren (06:03):
Awesome. Share if you would. Ephraim and Dan will
ask you the same question too about spiritual practices.
Anything that's meaningful for you, you're willing to
share.
>> Ephraim Smith (06:13):
Yes, I mean for me, uh, prayer
walks have become uh, an important
part of my spiritual practice is just kind of you
know, getting out. You know, now that I live in
California and not Minnesota, I get outside all
year round basically. And so I just like
getting out and looking at the mountains, looking at the sky,
(06:33):
you know, spending uh, time with the Lord,
listening, walking uh, but
regular um, time in the Word,
not just for sermon development but for me
personally is important.
And um, I have a
small group of men that I'm involved with. And
(06:54):
so my spiritual practices include
prayer, silence
in the Word, but also being in a
smaller community of other brothers that
are journeying with me.
>> Loren (07:07):
Mhm. Dan, how about you?
>> Dan Kreiss (07:10):
Yeah, for me, uh, much like
Ephraim, I love the out of doors and spend a lot of
time on uh, my road bike actually is a good place
to meditate and pray. But I've just recently
been rereading uh, with a small
group, Richard Foster's classic celebration of
discipline and kind of going through some of those
spiritual practices. Again I can't. You know, I've read that as
(07:32):
you probably have too multiple times. But keep going back to it
and being reminded and refreshed about some, some
really critical things and turn. Including things
like uh, confession and how
that takes place both individually and
corporately. Um, the,
the practice of solitude is, is really important to
me. You know, I think of a, a cyclist. You probably, if
(07:54):
you're in your area, you might have big groups of people that kind
of annoy traffic. Why I'd go all by myself
and that's, you know, that's, that's solitude and
um, time for meditation while at the same time uh,
being out uh, in nature. So those practices are really important.
And like Ephraim too as a, as a
pastor, coming to the Word, not just
(08:15):
for preparation for
communicating to somebody else, but really for your own spiritual
nurture is critical.
>> Loren (08:23):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that you both. Let's get
into this book where we looking to
talk about today. Dan and Ephraim are the
authors of Church for
Building a Multi Inclusive Community
for Emerging Generations. So I'm not sure
which one of you wants to take this answer
(08:44):
but talk uh, about kind of the goals and aims of the book,
sort of how it came to be, all that stuff.
>> Ephraim Smith (08:49):
Well, I'll hand it over to Dan, uh,
because this project was his original idea
and I was very fortunate that uh,
he was open and agreed to allowing me to
join him in the development of this
resource.
>> Dan Kreiss (09:05):
Okay, well and also to be
fair, it wouldn't have existed were it not for Ephraim. So it's definitely
collaboration. But it came out of much of my
experience like uh, I said in New Zealand and then coming back to the
United States and wondering, uh, I have
four adult children of my own and wondering why
Emerging Generations felt so uh,
(09:25):
disconnected from the church. Both
in New Zealand where I was working but also,
and more significantly here because
in the United States there's much more of a culture
of church participation. And yet it seemed like
the rise of the nones as they call it. N o N E
s seemed um, to be significant, uh,
(09:46):
amongst emerging generations. And that's concerning for
multiple reasons, but not least of which is the faith development
of individuals. And so
this book came about ultimately because
of uh, my own experience in the
university setting and talking with young people
and research, uh, and
(10:07):
writing that I was doing for my doctor and recognizing
that there seemed to be some soft
barriers, uh, that were communicating
things to the emerging generations in the
church, uh, that were off
putting to them and were
communicating something other than what I believed
was God's intent for the church. And
(10:28):
so as continue to write that and some
of that is this inclusive nature that we seem to be
very siloed. Mhm. In our
congregations. And that can be based on
ethnicity, but it can also be based on uh,
political ideology or socioeconomic status
or all that stuff. And yet in every other aspect of
(10:48):
uh, young people's lives they're involved
in multidimensional relationships of
ethnicity and socioeconomic standing and educational
level. And yet the church seemed to stand
out as a stark
distinction of siloed
congregation. That did not seem to be what I felt God was
communicating the church to be. And so that's where it came about. And then
(11:10):
discussions with Ephraim, uh, we kind of
collaborated and realized that much of our
passion lined up. And so
that's really how this book came about.
>> Loren (11:22):
Yeah, I think one of the things that was interesting to me
is the way you try to have that
throughout the book as I read it, that kind of, that both
and nuance, uh,
tension holding both sides approach.
So one of the things that stood right out to me
was on page 38 you talk about how a church
should be both vertical in horizontal.
(11:44):
I think that's something that uh, I was just having this
conversation with as recording this, my
last guest, Dr. Walter Strickland.
Um, uh, in other conversations
I feel like this comes up too is this tension between
there's some churches that want to make Christianity
solely about me and God with no kind of practical
implications for our world today. And then I think
(12:07):
in some Christian circles there's this kind of like
Christianity is solely about me and my neighbor with really no
kind of supernatural implications. Talk about the
importance of Christianity and church being both
vertical as you say, and horizontal.
>> Ephraim Smith (12:22):
Yeah, I mean, well, for me personally, um,
this comes out of again my
being influenced both by The African American
Church and uh, the Evangelical church for
me now specifically a denomination called the
Evangelical Covenant, which originally was
called the Swedish Covenant Church, but then I joined,
(12:42):
so they had to change the name.
But the Swedish Covenant Church in its origins was
about pietism, that me and
God. That pietistic
nature of I'm in God's word, I'm in
prayer, um, I'm growing
in my relationship with God and it's
impacting my life, my
(13:04):
formation, uh, out of the
African American Church. It wasn't that the African American
church doesn't emphasize that at all, but there's a
strong emphasis, at least in my upbringing in
it, of liberation.
>> Dan Kreiss (13:17):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (13:17):
That Jesus set us free
from sin, but also set us free
from the shackles of slavery.
>> Loren (13:25):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (13:26):
That Jesus reconciles
us unto God,
uh, because Jesus is God. And so
we find intimacy again with God through,
through Christ Jesus. But Jesus
cares about the marginalized Samaritan
woman. And so that's how
for me, uh, my
(13:48):
pastoring, uh, uh,
has been informed by both the vertical and the
horizontal that yes,
sanctification is a
major part of the Christian life.
But I also believe liberation is
too. Ah. Because sin is
not just in the soul of individual
(14:10):
human beings. Sin is also in
systems, in society.
>> Dan Kreiss (14:15):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (14:16):
Sin is in structures, in ideologies,
in institutions. And so we need
a justice and righteousness biblically
that can live itself out through the church that
recognizes both of these dimensions of sin.
>> Loren (14:32):
Yeah. Something else that I want to talk about
here that I found interesting. And this came up
again, uh, in a previous conversation I had
with, uh, a guest, Brian Davis, who's
an evangelical worship leader. He talked
about in his context in
Denver, like, uh, many churches are moving.
Rather than the kind of mega church
(14:53):
commuter model. They're really trying to emphasize
a parish or neighborhood model approach to
church, which you all both write about. Dan, do you want to
talk about? Felt that shift from the kind of
huge attractional community church to really something
being more parish or neighborhood centered and
maybe define the word parish since
(15:14):
folks may not understand that in context.
>> Dan Kreiss (15:16):
Sure, yeah, we do write about that quite a bit. That the
parish model is essentially, uh, taking
the structure, the building of your congregation or
where you meet, and then, uh, drawing
a circle around a mile wide or
whatever. It comes from the English, the
Anglican church, um, and where the
parish would be the town, the local town, and the
(15:38):
vicar would be the vicar for that entire
community, whether or not the people in that community darkened the
doors on a Sunday morning for worship. That that
was the person you went to when it was, you know, time to get married,
or there was someone sick that needed to be visited or there was
a funeral to be had, and that's. That person was
ministering, uh, regardless of
their understanding of faith and
(16:01):
hopefully ministering to them so that they come to faith. But
that's the parish model. And so what we've
had in the United States has been this,
uh, attractive, uh, almost
a marketing
purpose for church. And you know,
we have this. We talk about it a little bit, you know, in
(16:21):
the book about the principle
where we need to find our niche market and we're going to
develop a church specifically for them to attract them from
all sorts of neighborhoods. Um, and
the parish model says, well, actually where
we're located, there are all kinds of people in this
neighborhood that come from all different backgrounds and
(16:43):
perspectives and ethnicities and all that
stuff, and they belong in the church and that we actually
grow and learn more in our own faith and our
understanding of God if our community is
more diverse. And so that's really what the parish model is
encouraging.
>> Loren (16:59):
Yeah.
>> Dan Kreiss (17:00):
And it also doesn't have to be huge. Then, you know, it's not
this megalith. So the book is not
necessarily speaking to how to make your church bigger.
Church for everyone doesn't mean we're going to blow the
doors out because there's so many people coming. What it means is
that in my community, I'm serving
everyone.
>> Loren (17:20):
Yeah. I think something, uh, that was
interesting is this shift of
again, being okay with.
Because again, when there's emphasis on kind of growth at
all costs. Right. There is this kind of shift of
what is the ultimate of value or it's the ultimate
of importance. Right. When it's growth at all
costs versus,
(17:42):
again, staying local, that
really, uh, changes the priorities. Right?
>> Ephraim Smith (17:52):
Yes, I would agree with that. I mean, and
you know, I pastor what would be
deemed a mega church, but,
uh, where I believe even for us, we
need to pay attention to this
parish model, this parish expression
is, um. One of
(18:12):
the things that I've noticed over the years is
that the emerging generations,
uh, they don't like sitting in the traffic that
my generation's willing to sit in to get to work.
There are people my age and older that live
in Sacramento because it's much, uh,
more affordable to buy a house in Sacramento. But
(18:34):
they're getting up at 4:30 in the morning and they're
commuting to the Bay Area for work. And then
they're getting home at like
7pm in the evening just to start it all
over again the next day. But
there's a younger generation of people that they're like, I
want to live, work close to where I work
and I want to ride my bike to work.
(18:58):
If I've got somewhat of a commute, I want to ride the light
rail train to work. And so
even when I was pastoring back in North
Minneapolis sanctuary, uh, Covenant Church,
there were folks coming to our church,
younger, in their 20s, early 30s. They're
like, I'm a part of this church because I'm a
(19:20):
public school teacher, uh, a mile from
here and my family moved here. This
is my first time living in the inner city. I grew up in
a rural town or I grew up in a second ring
suburb, but I'm white,
I'm teaching in a predominantly African American
and Hispanic middle school and I want to live in
(19:40):
this neighborhood. So,
um, that, that, that
is leading itself
towards, uh, not uh, only a parish
model of like, I want to go to church
where I live, but it's also creating a model
of what are we doing to address the social
ills in this community. I have a vested
(20:01):
interest in seeing justice and seeing
disparities dealt with because I live here
now and I'm not just watching this on the news.
>> Loren (20:10):
Yeah. And especially right when you're not driving by
it. Right.
>> Dan Kreiss (20:14):
Yes.
>> Loren (20:15):
Yeah.
>> Dan Kreiss (20:16):
And we want to make it clear, Loren, that this book is not a
formula for growing your church. At least not growing
it numerically. Uh, again,
the purpose of it is to make it more the church
that God desires it to be. And that does not necessarily mean
numbers. And a matter of fact, you know, as
Ephraim already attested to in his church, growing
up, like potentially by becoming more inclusive
(20:39):
or more diverse. Some people will leave because
they are uncomfortable with that. So we just need to
be aware that this, you know, we don't want this to be another one of
those, those books where people pick it up and think, oh, this is what I
got to do to, to make my church bigger and compete
with the guy down the road. That's, that's not it at all.
>> Loren (20:56):
Well, let's stay on that trend because I think one of the things that was
interesting to me that I, I think I kind of felt, but
I don't know if I've read on paper is you all,
uh, you all write that it's easier to start a
multi ethnic church than to become one. So Ephraim,
you certainly talked about that, you know, in your experience
growing up. Why? I mean, I suppose
(21:16):
it's obvious, but maybe Say it again. Like what. What
are some of the real challenges, uh, Ephraim, that
you experience? And Dan, you're welcome to speak in this as well,
that are sometimes too much to overcome. And
why starting that way is so much easier.
>> Ephraim Smith (21:31):
Yeah. Well, the American church
begins in the American story, good and
bad. And so the
church has its origins in
the racial origins, the
racial tragedy. Uh, that is
our historic story. And so the
church, uh, is birthed in the midst of
(21:53):
slavery. It navigates its way through
reconstruction into Jim Crow
segregation. And so, uh, the
older the church is, the
more it is deeply, uh,
rooted in the soil of a
racialized society and all that comes with
that. Um, uh,
(22:14):
and this is not to say, oh, that means this
church is racist or something like that. It could also
mean this church started as a church
for Swedish immigrants. It started as a
church for, uh, Italian
immigrants, German, uh, immigrants.
And so, uh, or the church is
(22:34):
white in its culture. So when churches
that are already predominantly
exclusively white or black,
uh, an expression of Asian or
Hispanic, attempt to become multi
ethnic, a lot of times their
diversity is still built on assimilation.
(22:54):
We want anybody to come, but you're
assimilating into the established
culture that is already here versus
when you plant a church, there's a better
opportunity to start it,
uh, from the standpoint of
reconciliation versus the
standpoint of assimilation. So I'll give you a quick
(23:15):
example. Ah. When we planted sanctuary
in Minneapolis when we first started,
um, we used to have these multi
ethnicities, uh, dinners. And I would
encourage people to bring a dish that represented
their upbringing, their culture. So we had the
enchiladas next to the collard greens next to
the fried rice. We had sweet potato pie and
(23:37):
pumpkin pie. And I would say to people,
except for issues of allergies,
I'm asking you to get a little bit of everything.
>> Loren (23:46):
Yeah.
>> Ephraim Smith (23:46):
Because as we digest one another's
foods, this church is going to be predicated
in part on digesting one another's
stories, one another's pain, one
another's triumphs, one another's
cultures. It's easier to do that when
you plant a church than when you step into an
established church. Though through
(24:08):
Dan's contribution, uh, to the book,
he focused a little more than I did
on, there's still a challenge to the established
church if it doesn't want to die. Because
it's one thing to say this book is not about.
This book is definitely not about church growth, but it's
also about we don't want our church
(24:29):
to die. M. It's already in
decline. And so this
commitment to, um, being
more inclusive while remaining
biblical will keep churches that have
been around 100 years from dying.
>> Loren (24:45):
Let's go into that, Dan, because y'all write in
the book about the importance of being willing to
experience discomfort, about why it's essential
for the dominant cultural group to permit other
voices. Again, uh, I'm thinking of like,
Ephraim talked about this
traditional church, whether it has roots
in an immigrant community, whether it's just a
(25:07):
long standing kind of white church that's been around, you
know, 100 years, 150 years, 70 years,
depending on the community, that they have this kind
of dominant tradition,
but they don't want to, they don't necessarily want to die. How
does one lead them? Like,
where does a pastor even start? I guess. I mean, I love
(25:28):
that idea from you, Ephraim, about, like, try
other foods, my goodness. But, uh, Dan, what do you
think? Where does one even start if you're trying to lead an existing church toward
change?
>> Dan Kreiss (25:38):
I mean, it can be what Ephraim's already
said, something as simple as that, to branch out.
And so when we talk about, uh, everyone
needs to feel a bit of discomfort, essentially what that
means is that I have to be willing to
put my preferences on
the shelf, recognizing that the way that I worship or
(25:58):
the order of service, or the foods that we eat at our potluck
dinners, or all those things are
oftentimes culturally established rather
than biblically established. And so that means
that, um, in order for
me to experience a more full expression of
worship and service and begin to work in areas of
justice and reconciliation, as Ephraim talks about,
(26:20):
I need to hear from different voices and understand different
perspectives. So as a leader, how do we help them
do that? And that's really challenging because
oftentimes, again, particularly in this
polarizing time of life
that we're in, particularly in the United States,
for some people that comes across as
(26:41):
political, uh, or
the kind of derogatory term now is woke
theology and all that kind of stuff. And that's not
the desire at all. The, uh, desire is
to kind of broaden our understanding and
realize what God is doing. And so
in the book, some, there's a whole chapter that says,
it says, whose idea was this? We go back through the
(27:04):
Old and New Testament to say, look, this was God's intent
from the beginning. And even the people of Israel who saw themselves
as God's chosen people
recognized that, you know, through
the writing, that, well, this is not just about
us. And so as a, as a Pastoral leader.
Sometimes, um, it means difficult conversations. Sometimes it means that
(27:25):
you need to be one on the, on the cutting edge of
beginning conversations with, uh, maybe
different congregations or different people in your
community. Begin those conversations and by doing that,
then open those conversations up to others
through shared, uh, meals
or combined worship services or
(27:46):
podcast interviews or whatever that your
community can slowly begin to digest.
>> Loren (27:53):
Yeah. Efraim, I'm looking at this quote from
153 about the assumption that often
takes place that God's work is
best done through our own cultures. And
I think many of us, if we're, even, if we're honest with
ourselves, we don't even recognize that we're
assuming that, um,
(28:13):
like, you know, how.
How have you led? How would
you. How would you. How have you led? How would you
advise leaders and pastors to
help lead their congregations and their people to
starting to be. To see their own,
um, their
(28:35):
own framework and how they're seeing the world through their
own lenses?
>> Ephraim Smith (28:39):
Yes. Well, first of
all, I know that it
becomes challenging talking about
race in the current landscape we're
in.
>> Loren (28:50):
Uh-huh.
>> Ephraim Smith (28:51):
And so we've, but we've got to find ways to talk about
race in ways that are healthy, that are
productive, that are fruitful and faithful. But saying,
I'm not talking about this to demean,
to demonize, to divide. I'm talking about this
because sometimes putting the truth on the table
allows us to live in community
(29:11):
better. So, uh, you know,
and I say that to say that we do have
to acknowledge that
the church religious experience
of white brothers and sisters has been
made the normative experience of church.
So it is only the church
(29:31):
of those deemed minority
people that the ethnic
minority, um, ah, title
or descriptor of is put on their church.
So it's like if somebody goes, I go to an African
American church, I go to a Korean church, I
go to a Hispanic church. Most white Christians don't
say, I go to this white church, uh, in
(29:54):
Phoenix, I go to this white church.
You know, outside of Philadelphia, they say, I go
to an evangelical church. I go to a gospel church. I
go to a Bible believing church, I go to a Presbyterian.
It's almost like I go to a church where Jesus is really
preached.
>> Loren (30:09):
Yeah.
>> Ephraim Smith (30:11):
And so the white church has been
made the normative, universal experience
of church. It's also been
described as, this is the
more enlightened. This is the place where you
can get a more clear understanding of who
is Jesus, who is the church, what is the gospel.
And so I think we have to Start by saying
(30:34):
no. Even the
predominantly Anglo white
church is cultural in
nature. There's parts of it that aren't.
They're more cultural than they are biblical.
So that's one. But the other thing I think
we have to unpack is,
uh, the
(30:56):
churches that Paul
and James and Peter were writing
to, we're
multicultural, multiethnic
churches trying to not just
stave off false teaching, but we're
really trying to figure out how to live in the community together.
This is why James, for instance, is like you
(31:17):
rich people, you oppress the poor and you're not paying them
fair wages. And basically what James is saying is
you rich people are sitting in church
with poor people that you're praising Jesus
on today and, and you're
going to go to work tomorrow and you're not going to pay them. Right,
Um, I got to write to you about this. Or uh,
(31:38):
uh, uh, Paul is saying, look,
Christ died so that all of us would die
on some level so that we wouldn't see each
other anymore from a worldly point of view. 2nd
Corinthians 5. And so I
think we have to acknowledge that there are some things that
we've made sacred in church
(31:59):
that are cultural so that we can get
to a more biblical experience of
reconciliation. Last thing I'll say about
this, uh, briefly is because
this book is about the emerging generations
and the kind of church they may be looking for
or they've already left the church of
their parents for
(32:21):
the parents and grandparents of the emerging
generation chose churches
based on the racially
segregated world in which they
lived. Their children are going to
work with people from the Middle east,
people from the Ukraine, Hmong
people, Filipino people. They're
(32:43):
on social media navigating a world.
My daughters have friends that look like the United
nations when they're all together. My
oldest daughter is African American. She married
a white guy.
>> Loren (32:56):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (32:57):
They're looking for a church that
can be home for both of them. So interracial
marriage is up in the United States.
Adopting children across race is
up in the United States. The number
of children born of mixed
race is up in the United
States. So people are looking for
(33:19):
a church not based on their parents and grandparents
experience, but on their multicultural, multi
ethnic experience right now.
>> Loren (33:27):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I want to come back to
that emerging, the question about emerging
generations, because I think that's a super important
question for the church, broadly speaking, today. But
Dan, I want to ask this real quick too.
I think it's an easy
tendency, especially amongst white churches, is
to Kind of like,
(33:50):
hey, the past is the past.
You know, it is what it is.
How do you all write about the importance of not
forgetting the past to move into the future?
How do you lead congregations
to engage with the past as they look to the
Future?
>> Dan Kreiss (34:09):
Yeah, well, C.S. lewis, uh, talks about that in terms
of a, uh, math equation.
>> Loren (34:13):
Right.
>> Dan Kreiss (34:13):
And if you're kind of getting the. You get to
the end, you can't just change it from there, but you have to
go back and address the issues back into. In the
equation to kind of get a different root result.
And that's essentially what we're saying. You're right
in many ways. We can't go back and change the
past, but we can go back and acknowledge the past
and recognize what place, uh, our congregation, even if
(34:36):
I wasn't alive at that time, our congregation played in
that, um, and then
work to apologize,
uh, and change the way that we do things
going forward so that we don't continue to
proffer those ideologies or those
things unintentionally. And again, sometimes we do that,
(34:56):
uh, just because this is our culture, this is how we do
things, makes, uh, me very
uncomfortable. My tradition
in the Presbyterian Church, they have often,
what's called. Well, it's usually
on, uh, All Saints
Day, they'll do what's called
Heritage, uh, Sunday, and Heritage Sunday,
(35:19):
they'll bring bagpipes in and they'll parade all the
tartans in and all kinds of stuff. Because, you know,
traditionally the Presbyterian church comes from the
Scottish area, and that's not a bad thing. We want to
embrace some of that heritage. But
Heritage Sunday, what it. What it also does
is it minimizes or,
uh, chooses to ignore what
(35:42):
that church did or what those people did when they came to
the United States. Yeah, our heritage. What part of our
heritage was, uh, enslaving
people who looked different than us?
Um, and so without acknowledging that and just coming
in, being proud of our heritage and minimizing
that which, uh, was wrong or
sinful in our heritage, um, is
(36:04):
not healthy. And again, I think emerging generations
look at that and go, there's a tension
here. There's something here that you're
completely ignoring that's we,
uh, need to address in order to move forward, in order to be more
who God wants our congregation to be. And so, again,
as a leader is sometimes having to speak those
(36:25):
things out loud.
>> Loren (36:26):
Yeah. I want to come back to
the question about the future church.
And, you know, Ephraim, if I heard
you write it, it almost sounds like you're Saying like the future church is multi
ethnic. A, like do you think that's true? And B,
what. How do we start leading
that shift and preparing churches for that
(36:47):
shift?
>> Ephraim Smith (36:49):
Yeah, I do believe that
um, there are not enough
multi ethnic churches
to accommodate the growing
population that will be desirous of
that kind of faith community. I don't
know as of yet if the multi ethnic church
will become um, the,
(37:12):
the dominant church if the majority
of churches. But we see growth in the multi ethnic church.
We, we, we see it going from you know,
less than 10% to close to
20% to more than that now that
it, it. And, and so uh,
what. There, there was a um,
Newsweek article that came out in the year 2000
(37:34):
called Color My World. So it was the
May 2000 issue
of Newsweek. So that's
24 years ago. Right. So uh, it
said at that time that
30 years before in the 1970s,
1 in 100 children born in
America were born of mixed race. 1 in
(37:57):
100 it said at that time, by
2000 it was 1 in 19
and in states like California, Illinois,
New York, it was 1 in 10.
So now we're 24 years since that
article was written. So I
uh. And because the church is in decline,
(38:18):
there's other books that aren't necessarily
focused on multiethnic. But David
Olson, oh, this was back in
2000,
uh, 10, uh, or so wrote
the book the American Church in Crisis.
>> Loren (38:33):
Mhm.
>> Ephraim Smith (38:34):
And talking about the decline of the American
church. And towards the end of the book he did
lift up the multi ethnic church as
part of the hope of
uh, addressing ah, the
decline. So I just think that
uh, again if we continue to be an ever increasing
(38:54):
multi ethnic, multicultural,
multiracial nation and we want
to be evangelistic and disciple,
making that in and of itself will call
for the need for more multiethnic
congregations.
>> Loren (39:11):
Yeah, Dan, let's. You know, you mentioned off
the top you've done a lot of work in New Zealand and uh,
in what might be called a post Christian
society. I'm thinking there's certainly that
trend, Right. We might say broadly speaking in America of
certainly moving from at least the post Christian dom society.
Like does a multi ethnic
(39:31):
church resonate more with young people or young adults? Like
talk more about how a uh, multi ethnic church might be
more conducive to their context and
culture and making uh, them engage, helping
them engage with the faith.
>> Dan Kreiss (39:45):
Right. One of the things that Ephraim says in
the book, and it's a quote from when I interviewed him
for my own research, was it may not
be the main reason why emerging generations
are walking away from the church, but it gives them one more
excuse, it's one more thing
that this is a way that seems like the
church is not anything
(40:07):
like the rest of my reality. And
so, um, I
think there's multiple aspects to why
emerging generations are disengaging from the church. I
do think that the multi inclusive church,
uh, is more reflective of one who God desires
the church to be or what God desires the church to be and also will
resonate, uh, more with emerging generations.
(40:30):
But I also think that there are other cultural things that are
happening. I think that this church may remain
in decline, uh, even with the growth
of the multi ethnic church just because of
other forces that are happening in society. But that
doesn't, again, that doesn't mean that
we, that this isn't something we should pursue. And again, I
(40:50):
think for me the desire to write this book and pursue
this, yes, we want the church to remain vital and
vibrant because of the message of the
gospel and because of what Jesus has done. And because I believe,
as I believe Ephraim believes, that the church is
the best place to reconcile our
culture. But that's not the
purpose for this. The purpose for this ultimately is
(41:13):
that we can be the people of God, the family of
God that God desired from the beginning. And I
think that's what's going to resonate with young people
most substantially. And again, this is not
a guarantee, um, by pursuing
multi ethnicity or pursuing multi inclusivity
that we're going to stave off a decline
(41:34):
in faith just because again, some of the other
pressures. But faith is growing in many areas.
Um, when
Ephraim talked about the,
the decline of the church, who was that author?
Ephraim?
>> Ephraim Smith (41:50):
Yeah, David Olson. David Olson used to be
the um, executive, uh, minister
for church, ah, growth and evangelism,
uh, in our denomination.
>> Dan Kreiss (41:59):
Right. And so some of that is, and people will look
at that and think, oh, you know, churches are closing all over the place, therefore
the church is in decline. And numerically that is
true. But what they're often referring to again is the
normative church. What's the normative church? It's the
white middle class church. Yes, they're in
decline, but that doesn't mean that the church
universally in our nation or around the world is in
(42:22):
decline. Matter of fact, in some places of the world it's
exploding.
>> Loren (42:27):
Yeah. Ephraim, let's have you close with
this. Um, if I heard that right, Dan
quoted you from your interview with
him that the church is the best place to
reconcile culture. I think,
whether it's societally this idea that church is outdated
and irrelevant. While I think
(42:48):
there's some voices right within the church who think
church is too much of the problem, too, uh,
much aligned with this or that or the other, or too broken.
Why do you think, again, if I'm understanding you
correctly, why do you think that church is the best place to
lead and reconcile?
>> Ephraim Smith (43:05):
Well, one, the church has
some biblical mandates, uh, to love your
neighbor as yourself. Uh,
and the definition of neighbor goes beyond, uh,
your specific ethnicity or nationality or
tribe. We have the great commission to
make disciples of all nations.
(43:25):
We also, in places like 2 Corinthians,
chapter 5 and even other places in Ephesians, have the
call to reconciliation. And that call to
reconciliation not only includes being
reconciled to God in Christ Jesus, but
again because,
uh, the churches weren't coming
from the homogeneous place that the
(43:47):
American church is coming from. Reconciliation
did really mean, will Jews and gentiles live
harmoniously in this community? And
so, uh, I believe that the
church with its flaws still
remains the only institution, the
only movement where unity,
(44:08):
where reconciliation is a
priority
is a mandate.
If corporations are
diverse, but their mandate is to sell
products and to make money.
Uh, politics, we recently
witnessed this. There's a winner and a loser.
(44:30):
And so the politics of
America is not set up for
unity. It's set up for, within a
two party system to say this party
won. So now this party gets to
decide, this party gets to enforce its
mandate on all people. The church, the
Christian church remains the one
(44:52):
place in my mind where
uh, reconciliation, unity
in Christ Jesus is not supposed to be an
option.
>> Loren (45:02):
Yeah, I'm thinking again, like the last few
years, right. So many corporations have gone to
DEI approaches and then when they've gotten
pushback on that, they're like, oh, never mind,
like it's not convenient for our business,
money uh, making endeavor. So we're just gonna like
quietly shelf that.
>> Ephraim Smith (45:22):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean the
original reason why corporations drift towards
DEI is they're making customer based
decisions.
>> Loren (45:31):
Right, Right.
>> Ephraim Smith (45:32):
If, if Pepsi knew they could be a
billion dollar corporation and only sell Pepsi
to white people, they would be doing that.
But they go, oh my gosh,
black people and brown people are drinking Pepsi
and we, and we need to take it, we need to get into that
market or Coca Cola is going to just rule
(45:53):
there. So let's hire an African American
and let's study how we can get more African
Americans, more black and brown people drinking Pepsi. So I
mean Corporations, I mean, man, I really
made that really, really sound
bad.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:08):
But.
>> Ephraim Smith (46:09):
But companies make customer based
decisions. The church is supposed to make
kingdom based decisions.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:16):
Yes.
>> Loren (46:17):
Yeah, I gotta write that down.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:19):
Yeah. Which is very different, man.
>> Ephraim Smith (46:20):
I did. I was.
>> Dan Kreiss (46:21):
Sounds good. Look, Loren, the challenge,
I think, uh, when looking at the church,
uh, is that we've been through a lot with
the pandemic and then the racial unrest and all that stuff.
And the church should have been the exemplar. The church should have been
one that public
entities and corporations and
(46:42):
political uh, establishments should have been going to and said,
how do you do this? How do you
reconcile? Because we see that you are doing it effectively and
efficiently and you are doing it in a way where everyone's included. And
yet when those things happened, nobody turned to the
church. Because the world, for whatever reason,
doesn't see the church as having the answer to that. Because I don't think
(47:02):
we've exemplified what God desires the church
to be. And uh, again, had we been living it out
the way we were meant to live it out, I think
that would have been the turning point. That uh, they were like, you know,
when all this unrest happens, well, let's go to
our church leaders because they know how to do this
reconciliation. They know how to, to be
(47:23):
inclusive in a way that we don't. But they looked at the church and thought they're
just like us. Maybe even more, uh,
siloed than we are.
>> Loren (47:31):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Um, I know we're running out of time here, so let's just do
this. The book is church for
everyone, building a multi
inclusive community for emerging generations.
Uh, Dan and Ephraim, do you want to just bother share how folks can
connect with you? Get the book, all that stuff,
(47:53):
uh.
>> Ephraim Smith (47:53):
For me, uh, you can just uh, find me Ephraim
Smith on Instagram, on Facebook.
I uh, encourage you to go to Midtownchurch, uh,
uh.org uh to look us up
that way. Uh, but uh, definitely
encourage you uh, to pick up the book
wherever you can get books. Amazon
Bookstores, uh, and uh,
(48:15):
again for me it's an honor to
partner with uh, Dan. We're on
this project.
>> Dan Kreiss (48:24):
Uh, uh, my contact details are changing because in
two weeks I'm in a new location. But the uh, church will
be a Lake Murray Presbyterian, uh,
in Chapin, South Carolina. But again, just like
Ephrem Dan Christ at Instagram or on
Facebook and we'd encourage you to. And I just
finished an eight week study of the book in my,
(48:44):
my previous church, uh, with about
80 people. And it was a fantastic way to kind
of have some challenging dialogue and discussion
with multi generations. And I would encourage
pastors or leaders, elders or whatever to pick that up and
do it as a group study because it was
powerful.
>> Loren (49:03):
All right, so I guess before I'll, uh, make sure I get with you
when the show notes come out to make sure we get update, uh, contact
links for the show notes. But gentlemen, uh, really appreciate
your time. Really appreciate the conversation. Thank, uh, you
for contribution of the book and for this conversation
today. So I always leave folks with a word of peace.
So, uh, may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren Richmond (49:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(49:52):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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