December 16, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when deconstruction becomes an identity—and woundedness becomes a platform?
In this episode of the Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with pastor and writer Tara Beth Leach about the growing online ecosystem where deconstruction is monetized, anger is rewarded, and discipleship is often replaced by endless dismantling.
Tara Beth shares why she believes some deconstruction is necessary (especially as faith matures), but warns that deconstruction without reconstruction can become a spiral that forms people in cynicism rather than hope. She describes how churches can respond to cultural crises without becoming “statement churches,” why partisan politics becomes idolatrous, and how practices like liturgy and theology formation can subvert polarization and re-form the Christian imagination.
In this conversation, you’ll hear about:-
Why online deconstruction and local church reality are often very different
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The danger of mistaking deconstruction for discipleship
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How algorithms reward outrage and shape Christian formation
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Why Gen Z is often hungry for embodied, communal faith
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Liturgy and slow formation as a pastoral response in a divided age
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The difference between charisma and character—and what churches celebrate
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Supporting women in ministry: why men often “call out” people who look like them
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Tara Beth’s “G.R.E.A.T.” morning prayer practice and her book The Great Morning Revolution
Tara Beth Leach is a pastor, preacher of the Word, and writer. She speaks widely at conferences, retreats, and universities across the country on Women in Ministry, Church Leadership, and the call to be a Radiant Witness. She is the Senior Pastor at Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, IL and previously served at Christ Church in Oakbrook and as Senior Pastor of First Church of the Nazarene of Pasadena (”PazNaz”) in SoCal. She is a graduate of Olivet Nazarene University and Northern Theological Seminary and has authored three books, including Emboldened and Radiant Church. Tara Beth is the co-founder of Propel Ecclesia and is also the co-host of The Pastors Table podcast. She has two beautiful and rambunctious sons and has been married to the love of her life, Jeff, since 2006.
Mentioned Resources:
📱 Find Tara online @TaraBethLeach
🟧 Tara's Substack: https://substack.com/@tarabethleach
🌐 Tara's Website: https://tarabethleach.com/
🎧 Tara's Podcast: The Pastors Table Podcast
📖 Tara's Book: The Great Morning Revolution
Supporting Sponsors:
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
SEO / Keywords
Tara Beth Leach, deconstruction, discipleship, church hurt, Christian formation, Gen Z church, Christian nationalism, partisan politics idolatry, pastoral leadership, preaching in a divided age, liturgy, school of theology, Christian imagination, cancel culture, call-out culture, family systems theory, Jonathan Haidt Anxious Generation, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Tarabeth Leach. Tarabeth is a pastor, preacher of
the Word and a writer. She formerly served on
staff at Good shepherd as a youth minister and
most recently as pastor of Servant Ministry and
Missional life at Christ Church of Oak Brook.
(01:07):
Pastor Terabeth is the author of Emboldened
radiant church and 40 days on being a six. Outside
of her home church duties. She speaks widely at
conferences, retreats and universities, um, across
America on church leadership, women in ministry,
and the call to be a radiant witness. Tara Beth
(01:28):
has two beautiful and rambunctious sons and has
been married to the love of her Life, Jack, since
2006. A reminder, before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review and share Future
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
(01:51):
an email at, uh, lauren resonate media pro.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice and how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:15):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. You and today I'm
pleased to be joined by Tarabeth Leach. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (02:24):
Hey, thanks for having me, Loren.
>> Loren (02:25):
Yeah, thanks for being here. Is there anything
else you'd like our guests to know about you?
>> Speaker D (02:29):
Oh, goodness. Uh, I'm a mom of two boys, Caleb and
Noah. They're 13 and 15 years old. Been married
for almost 20 years and for fun, I ride horses.
>> Loren (02:43):
Wow, that is a fun fact. Yeah, fun fact. Uh,
what's a good horse question I could ask you then,
like, what's your favorite? I don't know, kind of
horse riding? Horse?
>> Speaker D (02:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So I own a 7 year old Dutch warmblood
named Sapphire sky and we, uh, compete probably
about six times a year in the hunter jumper world,
which is we jump courses and get judged off of the
jumping and uh, it's a really great outlet for me
(03:17):
as a pastor who does not just ministry in a local
church setting, but also nationally. And, uh, it
is one of the few places that I can go where I am
not thinking about work.
>> Loren (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.
Uh, share, if you would, a little bit about your
faith journey, what that's looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:39):
Yeah. So I grew up in a cultural Christian family
where we went to church a few times a year. You
know, the important days, Christmas and Easter and
throwing a Mother's Day there. And around, uh, my
sophomore year of high school, I started attending
a campus life outreach, uh, through Youth for
(03:59):
Christ. And it was there that, uh, Jesus, really,
I. I became more aware of the grace of God and
Jesus and Scripture, and I started reading my
Bible regularly. And it was while I was reading
the Gospel of Luke that everything really began to
make sense. And while reading the Gospel of Luke,
I got down on my knees next to my bed weeping. And
(04:21):
just the only words that could come out of my
mouth were, thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.
Thank you, Jesus. Not long after that, God called
me into ministry, though I had no idea what that
meant or what that looked like. This was the 90s
when I had no examples of women in ministry except
for Mother Teresa. So I thought, oh, my goodness,
does that mean I have to become a nun? But I
(04:45):
didn't allow that to really hinder me. I really
was pretty driven towards ministry since the late
90s as a teenager and never looked back, never
considered anything else. And went to Olivet
Nazarene University, studied youth ministry, was
in youth ministry for a long time, and, you know,
did a number of different roles within the church.
(05:06):
And now I serve as a senior pastor at Good
Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois, which is
just west of Chicago.
>> Loren (05:16):
Awesome. I appreciate you sharing all that.
What are some spiritual practices that you found
meaningful or that you're willing to share?
>> Speaker D (05:24):
Yeah. So for me, morning prayer is one of the most
sustaining things. Uh, my husband and I, we rise
early in the morning together and we practice, uh,
uh, just a prayer practice that we call the great
morning, which, uh, great is an acronym that
stands for gratitude, reflection, exaltation,
(05:46):
asking, and trusting. And so those are very
sustaining rhythms for us in our relationship with
the Lord, but also even for one another, because
we find that's just our greatest time to connect
also with one another as we're connecting with
God. And for. For both of us, you know, that
morning hour, while our minds are still a blank
(06:07):
canvas, his mercies are new in the morning. Being
able to offer up our first fruits to the Lord in
the morning. Is. It is. I mean, it feels like a
matter of life or death for us. Like that's how
important those morning practices are for us.
>> Loren (06:20):
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that.
So give me that G R E A T again.
>> Speaker D (06:25):
Yeah. Gratitude, reflection, exaltation, asking
and trusting. And if anyone wants to learn more
about it, I, uh, just released a book called the
Great Morning Revolution that is out at your. Any
online favorite book reteller.
>> Loren (06:39):
Okay, yeah, absolutely. Let's, uh, I'll make sure
I see book in the show notes. Make sure to have a
link in the show notes for you.
So, Tara, you're one of the, one of the few guests
where I feel like I know nothing about you because
most guests I have on the show tend to be authors
and you're just someone like, I think is going to
(07:00):
become more and more the trend who I've found
you're writing on Substack and love what you had
to say. Really appreciate what you had to say. And
today we're going to be kind of talking about a
post you made on Substack called When the Wounded
Take the Mic. And, uh, it's a conversation that
I've been, I suppose, less gracious and thoughtful
(07:21):
as you were in your writing. And certainly a trend
that I've seen again and again, if only because,
like, I feel like I get so many books sent to me
that are like, deconstruction based and I'm kind
of like, maybe it's because I'm getting older or
impatient or whatever, but I feel like I'm getting
worn out of this kind of deconstruction thing. Um,
(07:43):
so, uh, you're. You're still like, you are. You're
in front of people every, every day, every week.
You're in church ministry. Like, what is, what are
you seeing when it like, is deconstruction as big
a thing, I guess to start off, like, as we tend to
think it is online?
>> Speaker D (08:00):
No, not locally. Uh, I mean, I believe me, the
church that I serve, we do attract a lot of young
people, particularly, um, within this kind of
church hurt world. We do attract a lot of
millennials who are kind of dismantling some of
(08:21):
their kind of maybe evangelical systems that they
have come to realize maybe is not the framework of
Christianity or the telos of Christianity. And so
we do kind of attract a lot of those. And I think
maybe because we're a sacramental church and, um,
you know, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. We do attract
(08:41):
A lot of those. But the deconstruction that we're
seeing online is very different. And I think it's
because it's been monetized and it's because it's
become its own little cottage industry. It's
become, uh, something that people can, can write
books off of and listen like that. Like, I have no
problems with authors. Um, I've written several
(09:04):
myself and I'm grateful for the opportunities that
I have with that. And so it's not that it's that
it's writing books that is a problem. It's that
the motivation, I think, um, for continuing to
deconstruct is because it has become monetized and
people have created a, a whole, entire identity
(09:26):
with it. And it is causing incredible, I believe,
damage to Christians who are maybe freshly wounded
and it's maybe striking a chord. And um, I think
that it's oftentimes a deconstruction without
(09:48):
hope. I think to a degree that every Christian
needs to go through some sort of form of
deconstruction, you know, uh, of maybe things that
we once imagined about scripture or believed or
were taught about scripture. Um, because when
we're young, like we see things really black and
(10:09):
white and so we're going to be taught scripture in
a way that is simple. And one of the things that
I'm so concerned about is, um, what ends up
happening is I see people then turning like angry,
like at the church because maybe they were taught
something that was simpler. But I, uh, wonder if
(10:32):
they weren't quite ready for it. But I think that
deconstruction to a degree is important. My
concern is when it becomes monetized and then they
begin taking people with them.
>> Loren (10:45):
Yeah.
So one of the things you write about is this idea
to caution that people are making or mistaking
deconstruction for discipleship. And I think it
certainly gets at to what you're saying, like this
idea that like the faithful thing to do is always
to deconstruct. And I think you kind of named that
point. Like there's, in some ways we do need to
(11:07):
like make faith our own. Um, we do need to
understand like the simplistic probably things
that we were taught as five year olds. There's
more complicated or complexity I suppose than
that. So how do you discern or differentiate
between this idea of like, what is discipleship? A
(11:29):
real healthy kind of like making faith your own
versus just like a pure deconstruction?
>> Speaker D (11:35):
Yeah, Well, I think part of making faith your own
is being able to reconstruct something New, uh,
rather than just dismantling, because oftentimes
this dismantling becomes a spiraling without end.
And, you know, I think if we can begin with.
Because a lot of people who are deconstructing
(11:56):
will say, okay, Jesus, Jesus is really great.
Like, I really love Jesus and love this. You know,
I love the Sermon on the Mount and I love the
teachings of Jesus. And so if we're going to
deconstruct, we at least have to begin there. And
we have to then ask ourselves, well, what are the
things that Jesus cared about? What was Jesus
(12:17):
vision for the church? What was, uh, Jesus's
theological framework for the disciple? And we can
begin to build there. And I think that, I mean,
and I. And I think that there are a lot of
churches that are living that out and are calling
people to live that out and, uh, with great amount
of fear and trembling as both sinner and
simultaneously saint. And, um, and I also think
(12:42):
that, uh, if we can. If we can begin with the
premise that Jesus loves the church and Jesus
believes in the church, and Jesus still believes
in this project called the church, then ought we
not to also believe in the project of the church?
>> Loren (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm curious because I suppose this is kind of
getting off track from what I really wanted to ask
you, but these are how these conversations always
tend to go. So I'm curious, like, do you think
part of it stems from, I don't know if you're
familiar with the, uh, author of Theologian Nandra
(13:22):
Root, who works out of the Charles Taylor idea of
the imminent frame?
>> Speaker D (13:27):
Yep.
>> Loren (13:29):
This idea, like, um, when we've kind of
deconstructed Christianity, we've kind of limited
faith to the imminent frame. So we're cool with
the idea of Jesus being like a moral teacher or,
uh, a social activist or an inspiring guy. Uh, so
(13:50):
that has practical implications. But in my
opinion, it tends to always lead to, like, I don't
really need church. And I wonder, have you seen
the same? Do you feel the same? What are your
thoughts there?
>> Speaker D (14:02):
Yeah, I have certainly seen the same, um,
primarily with millennials and younger Gen X. Uh,
Gen Z, we are not seeing that at all. Um, Gen Z is
not even aware of the conversation on
deconstruction. Uh, Gen Z is, um, hungry for
(14:23):
something real. And what's amazing also about what
I'm seeing with Gen Z is they are a pretty blank
slate. Um, they know that they're hungry for
Jesus. They know that they want to be part of the
church. They know that they want to be engaged and
active and involved in the church, and they just
(14:43):
do not have the same kind of baggage that
millennials have.
>> Loren (14:48):
So this leads me again to another question. I just
finished reading the Anxious Generation Jonathan
Haidt because my daughter's middle school was
given away and I had to. How to read a free book.
But, uh, what struck me about, like, it was like,
to me, like, it was just like a moral panic book
and this kind of like, obsession with behavior
modification. And it. What struck me, and I'm
(15:09):
curious again, your thoughts here, like,
especially around Gen Z, is like. Like Gen Z and
younger kids, like, they're. They're neat. They're
hungry for purpose, they're hungry for meaning.
>> Speaker D (15:18):
Yes.
>> Loren (15:20):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (15:20):
And they're hungry for an embodied experience.
>> Loren (15:23):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (15:24):
Uh, I mean, it's incredible. Our church is. We
have just been seeing new, fresh, young Gen Z
people every single week. And I'm just like, where
are y' all coming from? Like, how'd you hear about
us? And, you know, they are just so craving
community. They are so craving, uh, spirituality
and meaning and purpose. And I think it's because
(15:47):
they've grown up on devices and they are ready for
an embodied, communal, experiential faith.
>> Loren (16:00):
Yeah. Everything that social media is not. Right.
So I want to go kind of go back to this idea of,
like, this deconstruction of this reimagination of
what faith looks like, which I think when we've
kind of taken out, like, the transcendent, there's
this idea, at least, as I see, and I'm curious,
your thoughts here, that like, really,
(16:20):
faithfulness really just comes down simply, like
political activism. Like, how do you navigate
that? Because I'm thinking of. And again, like, I
want to respect your. Your boundaries here because
this was such a controversial topic, but
certainly, I think we saw that, what, in the
summer at the. The awful killing of Charlie Kirk.
(16:41):
Right. This idea that, like, he was lifted up as a
martyr in some circuses, some. Some contexts.
Certainly I don't want to, like, diminish it all.
Like, apparently a strong and vibrant faith within
him and the absolute awfulness and tragedy of this
young man's life being taken. Um, but it was
startling to me, as someone not really running in
(17:01):
those circles, how much he was lifted up as a. As
a religious martyr figure.
>> Speaker D (17:07):
Mhm. Mhm. Absolutely. And I think even more. That
was incredibly concerning. And even more
concerning was just the even heightened, um,
response, um, with, well, to Christian
nationalism, um, Christian nationalism became more
(17:29):
normalized within Christian spaces and more
embraced, and the church became more polarized.
And when, I mean, Church, I mean Big C church, the
church across America became even more polarized
around this. And um, I didn't know who Charlie
Kirk was. Uh, I'd heard of Turning Point usa,
(17:52):
maybe heard of Charlie Kirk. I had not listened to
him. And uh, it was absolutely wild to me once I
started to dig into some of his stuff as to that
he was seen as a Christian martyr. Um, he was
assassinated wrongly. Um, but the ways that he
became a figurehead for many Christians was uh,
(18:16):
wildly concerned concerning to me.
>> Loren (18:18):
Yeah.
So I think this gets into something else you wrote
in your substack. This idea that like we need, we
don't need to be. Let me get this right. You say
that we don't need to be louder, we need to be
truer. And I suppose I shouldn't like, I don't
(18:38):
want to just criticize like a person who's
deceased here, but that certainly, like there's
been those kind of people who, of all stripes who
are, I feel like just obsessed with yelling at the
other side, those we disagree with.
>> Speaker D (18:52):
Mhm.
>> Loren (18:52):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (18:53):
Because politics has become idolatrous. Um,
they're willing to lose family members over it.
They're willing, uh, to cause damage, uh, to
relationships over it. And um, I think that when
we are living for something to that degree, uh, is
(19:14):
when it becomes idolatrous. And in particular
parts of partisan politics is what has become
idolatry. It's uh, not just politics in general,
although I do think some people are pretty
obsessed with politics in general. But I think
what we're seeing is the idolatry of partisan
politics.
>> Loren (19:31):
Yeah, I wrote a subset to that point a while back.
I think on the same wavelength, this idea
certainly I, uh, think it'd be foolish or even
unfaithful to suggest that Christianity and
Christians should have nothing to do with
politics, which as its basic sense is how we
enter, interact with one another in society.
Right. But I think there has become this, I think
(19:53):
you say it well, like this idolatrousness of like
what it means to be a faithful Christian is to, in
some circles to vote Republican, in some circles
to vote Democratic. And I mean again, I, my
thought is I kind of bang the same drum all the
time. It's this like this loss of sense of
transcendency of faith that like that really, it's
(20:16):
in God's hands. And I know that can be trite and,
and you know, almost in some ways.
>> Speaker D (20:23):
Yeah, go ahead. And I also think that there's,
there is a belief that the kingdom of God can
somehow be legislated.
>> Loren (20:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:32):
That the kingdom of God can be um, enacted through
a political leader. And I think that's just an
incredibly dangerous view and framework to have
among Christians.
>> Loren (20:48):
Yeah. Really good stuff. Sorry to write that down.
I feel like we're all over the place. So, um, I'm
hoping this is making sense to our listeners.
I do want to ask you. Right. About fresh wounds
making terrible teachers. And maybe, maybe this is
too harsh of a judgment on my end, but I feel like
(21:11):
in the last decade there's been this idea like the
ones who are the most wounded, like are the most.
I'm not sure how to say this right. Like they're
the most, um, they have the most offered. I want
to, I don't want to like dismiss or disregard like
(21:32):
challenges and suffering, like have a lot to teach
us in life. Uh, you write that healed scars can
bear witness. So certainly, like challenges and
suffering in life have a lot to teach us. Like I'm
thinking. I don't know if you've seen this quote
before from Nadia Bolt Weber. She always talked
about like preaching from her scars, not her
wounds. And my sense is. And tell me if I'm wrong
(21:55):
here or I'm m. Misinterpreting this. Like we've,
we've elevated like people who are just wounded
and they're spitting out from their trauma to use
a word rather than wisdom from learning from their
scars.
>> Speaker D (22:08):
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, for sure. And oftentimes it's
unprocessed pain. And uh, oftentimes they're
taking the mic as a form of therapy without any
sort of self awareness of how that is shaping and
forming the people that are around them. You know,
you think about one of the things I ended up
(22:28):
taking out of the article because it was just
getting way too long. I have a problem of being
way too long winded on substack.
Uh, but is I had a bit in there about family
systems theory.
>> Loren (22:39):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (22:40):
Because I think family systems theory, um, is an
interesting thing to think about in this
conversation. You know, the idea of family systems
theory is that uh, if one person uh, is angry,
they can often, if they're unhealthy, often look
for the other people in the community to match
their anger. And others are afraid to say, you
(23:01):
know, maybe, um, there's a different way to look
at this. And so there's. There's a feeling of
unsafety, that if you don't match that person's
anger, then you're not empathetic, that you're not
caring that you're. And so what we see is we see
this incredible contagion of anger happening in
culture. And, um, this is bleeding out into call
(23:21):
out culture and cancel culture, which I often say,
like, a lot of people think they're being
prophetic. I often feel like, um, call out culture
and cancel culture has hijacked the prophetic
voice. Um, people think they're being prophetic,
but I actually think that oftentimes they are
being more shaped and formed by call out and
cancel culture. And again, a lot of this goes
(23:41):
into, uh, an incredible binary way of thinking
that there's always a victim and there's always a
villain, and there's no nuance to that. And, um,
that it's either evil or it's either all good.
And, uh, we've lost the inability to think through
the nuance, uh, because we're just so obsessed
with a clean binary way of thinking. And so in
(24:04):
family systems theory, if one person has hurt and
they're loud and they expect others to match their
anger, well, that, that's contagious. And I think
that's what we're seeing happening on a really
large scale on platforms, on podcasts. Um, and
it's spreading and it's. It is malforming our
culture.
>> Loren (24:21):
Obviously, some of this is like we talked about
with Jonathan Haidt book, with what you talked
about about deconstruction being monetized. Like,
the algorithms, like, they reward this kind of
thing. Like they reward the anger and the vitriol
and the canceling and the call outs and
everything. Like that gets. That gets promoted.
Like, these are the times, like, I'm thankful.
(24:42):
Like, in the height of, like, in the height of
like 2021, 2022, or at least 24 election. I'll say
like the height of the 2024 election season. Like,
I was not leading a church. Um, so, like, I. I
can't imagine, like, having to navigate some of
these spaces. And I even remember, like in. In
(25:05):
2020 when I navigating Covid and some of the
things, um, among some of my staff who I was
leading around, like, the challenges of, like,
hey, we don't have to say anything about
everything or everything about anything. I mean,
m. How do you even. Like, this is one of the
things that's always flummoxed me about pastoral
(25:25):
ministry and why I have such high regard for
people like you who are like, the leaders in
ministry. Like, what. How do you counsel other
pastors? How do you navigate these tensions
yourself when, like, there is the sense of, like,
every Sunday a crisis has happened that week and
(25:45):
the pressure is like, I gotta say something.
>> Speaker D (25:48):
Mhm. Yeah. And oftentimes saying something can
become pretty polarizing and it can become pretty
easy then to create a, um, in the echo chamber
kind of church because you, you end up
marginalizing thoughts and ways of seeing things,
(26:09):
um, for people that might see it differently. Uh,
and I listen, I do think that pastors and churches
need to respond to things in culture. I think we
need to speak into injustices. I think that we
need uh, to always side with, with the
marginalized and the victimized. And like I'm so,
so I'm not like saying, saying that, you know, I'm
(26:32):
not saying that, that we ignore the voices of the
abused and the hurt. And that's one of the things
I kept trying to bring back up in when the wounded
take the mic is you know, I'm not saying that um,
at the same time if you become a statement church,
you're going to become either a red church or a
blue church. Like if, because your statements are
(26:54):
going to sound um, very uh, one sided. And um, so
for me like in the church that I pastor, we don't
make statements. What we do do is we give people
language to pray through our liturgy. And so I
think that, and this is, I wrote about this in one
(27:14):
of the substacks is um, uh, pastoral response in a
divided age through pastoral subversion. I think
that we can subvert um, some of the horrible
things happening in our culture, in our world
through different kind of practices rather than
making a statement. And that can happen in the
liturgy, uh, that can happen uh, in smaller
(27:37):
settings. Ah, because really what we need, because
when we make statements, all we're doing is
addressing the tip of the iceberg. And we're not
addressing all that has led to this like a really
terrible kingdom theology or an idolatry to
partisan politics or um, an incredibly um,
(27:58):
individualized view of my faith and my
Christianity that it's just about what happens
between God and I and my salvation is just me and
God and someday I'm just going to escape. You
know, there's just so many things like beneath the
iceberg that have to be addressed. Whereas if all
that we do is address the tip of the iceberg,
we're just going to polarize the people that are
lead, that are, that we are leading. And we're
(28:20):
never going to really address the terrible
theology that led to this atrocious thing that's
happened in culture. And so pastors have got to
find more creative and slower ways, uh, to address
these Things. So one of the, you know, there's, I
mentioned that we do that through liturgy. We also
do a school of theology here at the church that I
lead on Thursday nights. We, we do three semesters
(28:42):
of theology and two hours every Thursday night of
teaching. And that is, that is a way for me to get
at what, um, is what's happening. But what's the
thing beneath the thing, right, that's, that's
leading to these horrible things happening in our
world. Because we've got to dismantle that. And I
do think there needs to be a dismantling. One of
the things that I often talk about, and this is
(29:04):
kind of a heady freight or a meaty phrase, is the
work that churches and pastors need to do is we
need to do the work of dismantling the demonic
malformation of the Christian imagination.
>> Loren (29:16):
Love it.
>> Speaker D (29:19):
And it's demonic, all right. Because we see it in
the ways that people are reacting and the vitriol
and uh, and we've got to dismantle that before we
can really even get to the tip of the iceberg.
>> Loren (29:33):
Okay, give that to me again so I can write it
down. Dismantle the demonic.
>> Speaker D (29:38):
Dismantle the demonic malformation of the
Christian imagination.
>> Loren (29:46):
You know, as you're talking here and I'm writing,
I'm thinking of, since we've already mentioned
him, uh, Nandra. And I think it's the, I don't
know if you read the congregation in the secular
age.
>> Speaker D (29:56):
It's been a long time, but yeah.
>> Loren (29:57):
The speed of time, this sense that like, we just
gotta keep. And I think there's so much here that
we're talking about this kind of like keeping
pace, keeping up, um, where if I'm hearing you
like this theology, the school of theology, I
mean, that sounds just like so counterintuitive to
what we're all trained to do in pastoral ministry.
Like, it doesn't sound hip, it doesn't sound
(30:18):
relevant, it doesn't sound cool at all. Like a two
hour commitment on a weeknight. Like, who's got
time for that?
>> Speaker D (30:23):
Mhm. And we give them homework and it's in a
church basement with bad church coffee. But man,
it's incredible. It's one of my favorite things
that I'm seeing happening in our congregation
because it's just absolutely incredible what's
happening, uh, in these two hours every week.
>> Loren (30:41):
Yeah, I mean, that's really, uh, incredible. And
I'm just thinking about again, how do we shift
this from just trying to respond badly to culture,
to grounding people in faith and theology. So I
love that idea. I'm, uh, thinking too of.
(31:01):
You talked about liturgy as kind of equipping
people. You talked about your school of theology
as equipping people. I'm wondering how do you
frame sermons or messages to really try to.
>> Speaker D (31:17):
To.
>> Loren (31:17):
Leave room for the Spirit? I mean, I'm a part of a
preaching cohort now and one of the things that
the leader talks about is like to leave out the
lettuce sermons. Like, let us, let us go and do X,
Y and Z. Um, because obviously I believe and you
can correct me for if, if I'm wrong here. You feel
like you want to try to say something, but also
(31:37):
don't be too prescriptive. So how, how do you, uh,
how do you try to, how do you try to balance that?
>> Speaker D (31:44):
Yeah, well, first of all, I think that preachers
need to be really, really, really aware of the
language that we are using. Um, people are looking
for the gotchas. They're looking for, you know,
the phrases, the words that we're saying where
they can try to categorize where we might be
politically. And, um, we've also got to train our
(32:06):
people to think and non binary ways. Um, because
oftentimes, like if we say something, people
think, well, if you're saying that, then you must
not be this. Um, but oftentimes many things can be
true at the same time. And so, um, if we can stay
(32:27):
in the nuance and very particular issues while
also leaving room for the spirit while also not
trying to say, okay, here's now your marching
orders and here's your next three points that you
need to do. Uh, I think, think that that can
happen through a plate, through landing the sermon
in a way where it causes the listener to walk away
(32:49):
asking themselves a question. Yes, right. Um,
where they're pondering. Okay, so what does this
mean for me? What does it mean for me to move
forward in faith in this kind of way? Uh, so that
way the Holy Spirit can then begin to do that
work.
>> Loren (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
When we're thinking about speaking well,
communicating well, this, this gets back to
something that came up in your substack. And I
want to, want to talk about, you know, this in
this age of, like you said, virality or gotcha
clicks, like when it feels like people are
(33:27):
crafting sermons to, to really just have a bunch
of good, like clips, uh, for social media. Like,
how do we, how do we ensure that we're promoting
character rather than charisma? Like, this is,
this is one of the things that drives me crazy,
frankly, in ministry. This, this platforming of.
(33:48):
Of charisma rather than character.
>> Speaker D (33:54):
Yeah, that's a great question. How do we do that?
Um, well, I think it's gotta begin with modeling,
right? Like who. Who are the. Who are the
exemplars that were lifting up in our sermons? And
you know, oftentimes the exemplars that we're
lifting up in our sermons are those with. With the
charisma. They're those who are the larger than
(34:16):
life personalities. And, and oftentimes they're
usually men. Um, and I think that, you know, one
way that we can subvert that is in our preaching.
And also, who or what are we celebrating? Right.
(34:36):
I, um, mean, unfortunately, at conferences we are
platforming the people who have the charisma, who
have the platform, who have the notoriety. And
then I think even we as pastors are being shaped
and formed that. And we're tempted then also to
platforms form those voices to the people that
we're leading. But how might we instead begin to
(35:00):
amplify the voices of maybe people who aren't very
well known, but are living out the gospel with
boots on the ground, not in the auditoriums, not
in the platforms, but in their everyday, ordinary
neighborhoods?
>> Loren (35:16):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
I do want to ask you one more question before we
take a break here. You talked about, you know, so
often in the ministry we elevate the men. Uh,
certainly. Certainly ministry, historically
speaking, at least in America, has been dominated
by men. What is something that you'd like to lift
(35:37):
up, if I can ask you. So, like, as a woman in
leadership, as a woman in ministry, that men, uh,
especially like myself, could do a better job of
encouraging women in ministry or supporting maybe
a better way to say it.
>> Speaker D (35:50):
Yeah. So I think a huge thing is, um, we often
will call out people, um, who look like us.
Meaning, like, if we see potential in someone,
potential, ah, to preach or lead, uh, we look for
people that look like us. And so one of the many
reasons why we're, you know, see more, um, of the
(36:15):
voices that are in ministry and in leading
churches today are men, is because men tend to
call out men, um, and to mentor them and to, um,
lift up their gifts and to tell them that they see
something in them in a ministry. And so one thing
that men, m. In leadership could do would look
(36:36):
out, seek out those gifts in women as well.
They're there, um, for as many men as there are
with gifts to lead and to teach and preach, there
are also as many women to lead and to teach and to
preach.
>> Loren (36:48):
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. Um,
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with
some closing questions.
All right. We're back with Tara Beth Leach. Really
appreciate the conversation here. So some closing
questions. You're welcome to take these as
seriously or not as you'd like to. Okay, so first
(37:09):
question. If you're Pope for a day, uh, what might
that day look like for you?
>> Speaker D (37:14):
Oh, if I were Pope for a day, what might that day
look like for me? I think that I. I would
absolutely preach a biblical theology for women in
ministry.
>> Loren (37:29):
Love it. Love it.
>> Speaker D (37:31):
And advocate for women in ministry.
>> Loren (37:33):
I guess there was something. I just saw something
that there's. Supposedly there's some movement on.
And again, I don't mean this question to always
be, like, specific to Catholicism, but I guess
there was something recently I saw about some
movement toward married priests, but still nothing
towards female, uh, priests. Yeah, yeah, we gotta
get you. We gotta get you there for days.
>> Speaker D (37:54):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:55):
To do that, um, a theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Speaker D (38:02):
M. I would love to meet Christopher Wright.
Christopher J.H. wright. He is an Old Testament
theologian, biblical theologian, and he has so
transformed, um, my thinking and understanding of
the Old Testament and really enlivened just a
passion of me through the years for Covenant
(38:22):
theology and missional theology.
>> Loren (38:24):
Interesting. I'm not familiar. I'll have to check
him out. What do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (38:33):
I think history is going to remember how divided,
uh, and angry we are.
>> Loren (38:42):
Yeah. What are your hopes for the future of
Christianity?
>> Speaker D (38:48):
My m. Hopes is for a genuine Holy Spirit renewal
and revival of the church. The kind of revival
that is unifying, that impacts the culture around
her, and, uh, not just an emotive one, but one
that transforms and changes lives and raises up a
(39:09):
new generation of Christian leaders for impact.
>> Loren (39:12):
Yeah. Awesome. I hope so, man. I hope so. Like,
uh, it seems like. And I'm getting off track here,
like, I suppose, like there is some, like, legit
data, it seems like, coming out around. So I
imagine, like, you just. Just pray that. Pray that
hearts would be open, I guess, right?
>> Speaker D (39:29):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (39:30):
Pray for the Spirit's spirit, uh, to move and our
heart to be open. Share if you would. If, uh,
anything you want us about, say, about, um, your
book, your substack, how folks can get in touch
with you, check you out, any of that stuff.
>> Speaker D (39:45):
Yeah, I'm on substack. It's just Terabeth Leach
Um, so you can find me there a number of books on
Amazon. If you just do a quick Google you can find
them there. Ah, anything from women in ministry to
books about the church to uh, morning prayer
routine.
>> Loren (40:03):
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your
time. We always leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be be with.
>> Speaker D (40:09):
You and also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (40:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
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(40:39):
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to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Tarabeth Leach. Tarabeth is a pastor, preacher of
the Word and a writer. She formerly served on
staff at Good shepherd as a youth minister and
most recently as pastor of Servant Ministry and
Missional life at Christ Church of Oak Brook.
(01:07):
Pastor Terabeth is the author of Emboldened
radiant church and 40 days on being a six. Outside
of her home church duties. She speaks widely at
conferences, retreats and universities, um, across
America on church leadership, women in ministry,
and the call to be a radiant witness. Tara Beth
(01:28):
has two beautiful and rambunctious sons and has
been married to the love of her Life, Jack, since
2006. A reminder, before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review and share Future
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
(01:51):
an email at, uh, lauren resonate media pro.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice and how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:15):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. You and today I'm
pleased to be joined by Tarabeth Leach. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (02:24):
Hey, thanks for having me, Loren.
>> Loren (02:25):
Yeah, thanks for being here. Is there anything
else you'd like our guests to know about you?
>> Speaker D (02:29):
Oh, goodness. Uh, I'm a mom of two boys, Caleb and
Noah. They're 13 and 15 years old. Been married
for almost 20 years and for fun, I ride horses.
>> Loren (02:43):
Wow, that is a fun fact. Yeah, fun fact. Uh,
what's a good horse question I could ask you then,
like, what's your favorite? I don't know, kind of
horse riding? Horse?
>> Speaker D (02:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So I own a 7 year old Dutch warmblood
named Sapphire sky and we, uh, compete probably
about six times a year in the hunter jumper world,
which is we jump courses and get judged off of the
jumping and uh, it's a really great outlet for me
(03:17):
as a pastor who does not just ministry in a local
church setting, but also nationally. And, uh, it
is one of the few places that I can go where I am
not thinking about work.
>> Loren (03:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good stuff.
Uh, share, if you would, a little bit about your
faith journey, what that's looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:39):
Yeah. So I grew up in a cultural Christian family
where we went to church a few times a year. You
know, the important days, Christmas and Easter and
throwing a Mother's Day there. And around, uh, my
sophomore year of high school, I started attending
a campus life outreach, uh, through Youth for
(03:59):
Christ. And it was there that, uh, Jesus, really,
I. I became more aware of the grace of God and
Jesus and Scripture, and I started reading my
Bible regularly. And it was while I was reading
the Gospel of Luke that everything really began to
make sense. And while reading the Gospel of Luke,
I got down on my knees next to my bed weeping. And
(04:21):
just the only words that could come out of my
mouth were, thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus.
Thank you, Jesus. Not long after that, God called
me into ministry, though I had no idea what that
meant or what that looked like. This was the 90s
when I had no examples of women in ministry except
for Mother Teresa. So I thought, oh, my goodness,
does that mean I have to become a nun? But I
(04:45):
didn't allow that to really hinder me. I really
was pretty driven towards ministry since the late
90s as a teenager and never looked back, never
considered anything else. And went to Olivet
Nazarene University, studied youth ministry, was
in youth ministry for a long time, and, you know,
did a number of different roles within the church.
(05:06):
And now I serve as a senior pastor at Good
Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois, which is
just west of Chicago.
>> Loren (05:16):
Awesome. I appreciate you sharing all that.
What are some spiritual practices that you found
meaningful or that you're willing to share?
>> Speaker D (05:24):
Yeah. So for me, morning prayer is one of the most
sustaining things. Uh, my husband and I, we rise
early in the morning together and we practice, uh,
uh, just a prayer practice that we call the great
morning, which, uh, great is an acronym that
stands for gratitude, reflection, exaltation,
(05:46):
asking, and trusting. And so those are very
sustaining rhythms for us in our relationship with
the Lord, but also even for one another, because
we find that's just our greatest time to connect
also with one another as we're connecting with
God. And for. For both of us, you know, that
morning hour, while our minds are still a blank
(06:07):
canvas, his mercies are new in the morning. Being
able to offer up our first fruits to the Lord in
the morning. Is. It is. I mean, it feels like a
matter of life or death for us. Like that's how
important those morning practices are for us.
>> Loren (06:20):
Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that.
So give me that G R E A T again.
>> Speaker D (06:25):
Yeah. Gratitude, reflection, exaltation, asking
and trusting. And if anyone wants to learn more
about it, I, uh, just released a book called the
Great Morning Revolution that is out at your. Any
online favorite book reteller.
>> Loren (06:39):
Okay, yeah, absolutely. Let's, uh, I'll make sure
I see book in the show notes. Make sure to have a
link in the show notes for you.
So, Tara, you're one of the, one of the few guests
where I feel like I know nothing about you because
most guests I have on the show tend to be authors
and you're just someone like, I think is going to
(07:00):
become more and more the trend who I've found
you're writing on Substack and love what you had
to say. Really appreciate what you had to say. And
today we're going to be kind of talking about a
post you made on Substack called When the Wounded
Take the Mic. And, uh, it's a conversation that
I've been, I suppose, less gracious and thoughtful
(07:21):
as you were in your writing. And certainly a trend
that I've seen again and again, if only because,
like, I feel like I get so many books sent to me
that are like, deconstruction based and I'm kind
of like, maybe it's because I'm getting older or
impatient or whatever, but I feel like I'm getting
worn out of this kind of deconstruction thing. Um,
(07:43):
so, uh, you're. You're still like, you are. You're
in front of people every, every day, every week.
You're in church ministry. Like, what is, what are
you seeing when it like, is deconstruction as big
a thing, I guess to start off, like, as we tend to
think it is online?
>> Speaker D (08:00):
No, not locally. Uh, I mean, I believe me, the
church that I serve, we do attract a lot of young
people, particularly, um, within this kind of
church hurt world. We do attract a lot of
millennials who are kind of dismantling some of
(08:21):
their kind of maybe evangelical systems that they
have come to realize maybe is not the framework of
Christianity or the telos of Christianity. And so
we do kind of attract a lot of those. And I think
maybe because we're a sacramental church and, um,
you know, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. We do attract
(08:41):
A lot of those. But the deconstruction that we're
seeing online is very different. And I think it's
because it's been monetized and it's because it's
become its own little cottage industry. It's
become, uh, something that people can, can write
books off of and listen like that. Like, I have no
problems with authors. Um, I've written several
(09:04):
myself and I'm grateful for the opportunities that
I have with that. And so it's not that it's that
it's writing books that is a problem. It's that
the motivation, I think, um, for continuing to
deconstruct is because it has become monetized and
people have created a, a whole, entire identity
(09:26):
with it. And it is causing incredible, I believe,
damage to Christians who are maybe freshly wounded
and it's maybe striking a chord. And um, I think
that it's oftentimes a deconstruction without
(09:48):
hope. I think to a degree that every Christian
needs to go through some sort of form of
deconstruction, you know, uh, of maybe things that
we once imagined about scripture or believed or
were taught about scripture. Um, because when
we're young, like we see things really black and
(10:09):
white and so we're going to be taught scripture in
a way that is simple. And one of the things that
I'm so concerned about is, um, what ends up
happening is I see people then turning like angry,
like at the church because maybe they were taught
something that was simpler. But I, uh, wonder if
(10:32):
they weren't quite ready for it. But I think that
deconstruction to a degree is important. My
concern is when it becomes monetized and then they
begin taking people with them.
>> Loren (10:45):
Yeah.
So one of the things you write about is this idea
to caution that people are making or mistaking
deconstruction for discipleship. And I think it
certainly gets at to what you're saying, like this
idea that like the faithful thing to do is always
to deconstruct. And I think you kind of named that
point. Like there's, in some ways we do need to
(11:07):
like make faith our own. Um, we do need to
understand like the simplistic probably things
that we were taught as five year olds. There's
more complicated or complexity I suppose than
that. So how do you discern or differentiate
between this idea of like, what is discipleship? A
(11:29):
real healthy kind of like making faith your own
versus just like a pure deconstruction?
>> Speaker D (11:35):
Yeah, Well, I think part of making faith your own
is being able to reconstruct something New, uh,
rather than just dismantling, because oftentimes
this dismantling becomes a spiraling without end.
And, you know, I think if we can begin with.
Because a lot of people who are deconstructing
(11:56):
will say, okay, Jesus, Jesus is really great.
Like, I really love Jesus and love this. You know,
I love the Sermon on the Mount and I love the
teachings of Jesus. And so if we're going to
deconstruct, we at least have to begin there. And
we have to then ask ourselves, well, what are the
things that Jesus cared about? What was Jesus
(12:17):
vision for the church? What was, uh, Jesus's
theological framework for the disciple? And we can
begin to build there. And I think that, I mean,
and I. And I think that there are a lot of
churches that are living that out and are calling
people to live that out and, uh, with great amount
of fear and trembling as both sinner and
simultaneously saint. And, um, and I also think
(12:42):
that, uh, if we can. If we can begin with the
premise that Jesus loves the church and Jesus
believes in the church, and Jesus still believes
in this project called the church, then ought we
not to also believe in the project of the church?
>> Loren (13:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm curious because I suppose this is kind of
getting off track from what I really wanted to ask
you, but these are how these conversations always
tend to go. So I'm curious, like, do you think
part of it stems from, I don't know if you're
familiar with the, uh, author of Theologian Nandra
(13:22):
Root, who works out of the Charles Taylor idea of
the imminent frame?
>> Speaker D (13:27):
Yep.
>> Loren (13:29):
This idea, like, um, when we've kind of
deconstructed Christianity, we've kind of limited
faith to the imminent frame. So we're cool with
the idea of Jesus being like a moral teacher or,
uh, a social activist or an inspiring guy. Uh, so
(13:50):
that has practical implications. But in my
opinion, it tends to always lead to, like, I don't
really need church. And I wonder, have you seen
the same? Do you feel the same? What are your
thoughts there?
>> Speaker D (14:02):
Yeah, I have certainly seen the same, um,
primarily with millennials and younger Gen X. Uh,
Gen Z, we are not seeing that at all. Um, Gen Z is
not even aware of the conversation on
deconstruction. Uh, Gen Z is, um, hungry for
(14:23):
something real. And what's amazing also about what
I'm seeing with Gen Z is they are a pretty blank
slate. Um, they know that they're hungry for
Jesus. They know that they want to be part of the
church. They know that they want to be engaged and
active and involved in the church, and they just
(14:43):
do not have the same kind of baggage that
millennials have.
>> Loren (14:48):
So this leads me again to another question. I just
finished reading the Anxious Generation Jonathan
Haidt because my daughter's middle school was
given away and I had to. How to read a free book.
But, uh, what struck me about, like, it was like,
to me, like, it was just like a moral panic book
and this kind of like, obsession with behavior
modification. And it. What struck me, and I'm
(15:09):
curious again, your thoughts here, like,
especially around Gen Z, is like. Like Gen Z and
younger kids, like, they're. They're neat. They're
hungry for purpose, they're hungry for meaning.
>> Speaker D (15:18):
Yes.
>> Loren (15:20):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (15:20):
And they're hungry for an embodied experience.
>> Loren (15:23):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (15:24):
Uh, I mean, it's incredible. Our church is. We
have just been seeing new, fresh, young Gen Z
people every single week. And I'm just like, where
are y' all coming from? Like, how'd you hear about
us? And, you know, they are just so craving
community. They are so craving, uh, spirituality
and meaning and purpose. And I think it's because
(15:47):
they've grown up on devices and they are ready for
an embodied, communal, experiential faith.
>> Loren (16:00):
Yeah. Everything that social media is not. Right.
So I want to go kind of go back to this idea of,
like, this deconstruction of this reimagination of
what faith looks like, which I think when we've
kind of taken out, like, the transcendent, there's
this idea, at least, as I see, and I'm curious,
your thoughts here, that like, really,
(16:20):
faithfulness really just comes down simply, like
political activism. Like, how do you navigate
that? Because I'm thinking of. And again, like, I
want to respect your. Your boundaries here because
this was such a controversial topic, but
certainly, I think we saw that, what, in the
summer at the. The awful killing of Charlie Kirk.
(16:41):
Right. This idea that, like, he was lifted up as a
martyr in some circuses, some. Some contexts.
Certainly I don't want to, like, diminish it all.
Like, apparently a strong and vibrant faith within
him and the absolute awfulness and tragedy of this
young man's life being taken. Um, but it was
startling to me, as someone not really running in
(17:01):
those circles, how much he was lifted up as a. As
a religious martyr figure.
>> Speaker D (17:07):
Mhm. Mhm. Absolutely. And I think even more. That
was incredibly concerning. And even more
concerning was just the even heightened, um,
response, um, with, well, to Christian
nationalism, um, Christian nationalism became more
(17:29):
normalized within Christian spaces and more
embraced, and the church became more polarized.
And when, I mean, Church, I mean Big C church, the
church across America became even more polarized
around this. And um, I didn't know who Charlie
Kirk was. Uh, I'd heard of Turning Point usa,
(17:52):
maybe heard of Charlie Kirk. I had not listened to
him. And uh, it was absolutely wild to me once I
started to dig into some of his stuff as to that
he was seen as a Christian martyr. Um, he was
assassinated wrongly. Um, but the ways that he
became a figurehead for many Christians was uh,
(18:16):
wildly concerned concerning to me.
>> Loren (18:18):
Yeah.
So I think this gets into something else you wrote
in your substack. This idea that like we need, we
don't need to be. Let me get this right. You say
that we don't need to be louder, we need to be
truer. And I suppose I shouldn't like, I don't
(18:38):
want to just criticize like a person who's
deceased here, but that certainly, like there's
been those kind of people who, of all stripes who
are, I feel like just obsessed with yelling at the
other side, those we disagree with.
>> Speaker D (18:52):
Mhm.
>> Loren (18:52):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (18:53):
Because politics has become idolatrous. Um,
they're willing to lose family members over it.
They're willing, uh, to cause damage, uh, to
relationships over it. And um, I think that when
we are living for something to that degree, uh, is
(19:14):
when it becomes idolatrous. And in particular
parts of partisan politics is what has become
idolatry. It's uh, not just politics in general,
although I do think some people are pretty
obsessed with politics in general. But I think
what we're seeing is the idolatry of partisan
politics.
>> Loren (19:31):
Yeah, I wrote a subset to that point a while back.
I think on the same wavelength, this idea
certainly I, uh, think it'd be foolish or even
unfaithful to suggest that Christianity and
Christians should have nothing to do with
politics, which as its basic sense is how we
enter, interact with one another in society.
Right. But I think there has become this, I think
(19:53):
you say it well, like this idolatrousness of like
what it means to be a faithful Christian is to, in
some circles to vote Republican, in some circles
to vote Democratic. And I mean again, I, my
thought is I kind of bang the same drum all the
time. It's this like this loss of sense of
transcendency of faith that like that really, it's
(20:16):
in God's hands. And I know that can be trite and,
and you know, almost in some ways.
>> Speaker D (20:23):
Yeah, go ahead. And I also think that there's,
there is a belief that the kingdom of God can
somehow be legislated.
>> Loren (20:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:32):
That the kingdom of God can be um, enacted through
a political leader. And I think that's just an
incredibly dangerous view and framework to have
among Christians.
>> Loren (20:48):
Yeah. Really good stuff. Sorry to write that down.
I feel like we're all over the place. So, um, I'm
hoping this is making sense to our listeners.
I do want to ask you. Right. About fresh wounds
making terrible teachers. And maybe, maybe this is
too harsh of a judgment on my end, but I feel like
(21:11):
in the last decade there's been this idea like the
ones who are the most wounded, like are the most.
I'm not sure how to say this right. Like they're
the most, um, they have the most offered. I want
to, I don't want to like dismiss or disregard like
(21:32):
challenges and suffering, like have a lot to teach
us in life. Uh, you write that healed scars can
bear witness. So certainly, like challenges and
suffering in life have a lot to teach us. Like I'm
thinking. I don't know if you've seen this quote
before from Nadia Bolt Weber. She always talked
about like preaching from her scars, not her
wounds. And my sense is. And tell me if I'm wrong
(21:55):
here or I'm m. Misinterpreting this. Like we've,
we've elevated like people who are just wounded
and they're spitting out from their trauma to use
a word rather than wisdom from learning from their
scars.
>> Speaker D (22:08):
Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, for sure. And oftentimes it's
unprocessed pain. And uh, oftentimes they're
taking the mic as a form of therapy without any
sort of self awareness of how that is shaping and
forming the people that are around them. You know,
you think about one of the things I ended up
(22:28):
taking out of the article because it was just
getting way too long. I have a problem of being
way too long winded on substack.
Uh, but is I had a bit in there about family
systems theory.
>> Loren (22:39):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (22:40):
Because I think family systems theory, um, is an
interesting thing to think about in this
conversation. You know, the idea of family systems
theory is that uh, if one person uh, is angry,
they can often, if they're unhealthy, often look
for the other people in the community to match
their anger. And others are afraid to say, you
(23:01):
know, maybe, um, there's a different way to look
at this. And so there's. There's a feeling of
unsafety, that if you don't match that person's
anger, then you're not empathetic, that you're not
caring that you're. And so what we see is we see
this incredible contagion of anger happening in
culture. And, um, this is bleeding out into call
(23:21):
out culture and cancel culture, which I often say,
like, a lot of people think they're being
prophetic. I often feel like, um, call out culture
and cancel culture has hijacked the prophetic
voice. Um, people think they're being prophetic,
but I actually think that oftentimes they are
being more shaped and formed by call out and
cancel culture. And again, a lot of this goes
(23:41):
into, uh, an incredible binary way of thinking
that there's always a victim and there's always a
villain, and there's no nuance to that. And, um,
that it's either evil or it's either all good.
And, uh, we've lost the inability to think through
the nuance, uh, because we're just so obsessed
with a clean binary way of thinking. And so in
(24:04):
family systems theory, if one person has hurt and
they're loud and they expect others to match their
anger, well, that, that's contagious. And I think
that's what we're seeing happening on a really
large scale on platforms, on podcasts. Um, and
it's spreading and it's. It is malforming our
culture.
>> Loren (24:21):
Obviously, some of this is like we talked about
with Jonathan Haidt book, with what you talked
about about deconstruction being monetized. Like,
the algorithms, like, they reward this kind of
thing. Like they reward the anger and the vitriol
and the canceling and the call outs and
everything. Like that gets. That gets promoted.
Like, these are the times, like, I'm thankful.
(24:42):
Like, in the height of, like, in the height of
like 2021, 2022, or at least 24 election. I'll say
like the height of the 2024 election season. Like,
I was not leading a church. Um, so, like, I. I
can't imagine, like, having to navigate some of
these spaces. And I even remember, like in. In
(25:05):
2020 when I navigating Covid and some of the
things, um, among some of my staff who I was
leading around, like, the challenges of, like,
hey, we don't have to say anything about
everything or everything about anything. I mean,
m. How do you even. Like, this is one of the
things that's always flummoxed me about pastoral
(25:25):
ministry and why I have such high regard for
people like you who are like, the leaders in
ministry. Like, what. How do you counsel other
pastors? How do you navigate these tensions
yourself when, like, there is the sense of, like,
every Sunday a crisis has happened that week and
(25:45):
the pressure is like, I gotta say something.
>> Speaker D (25:48):
Mhm. Yeah. And oftentimes saying something can
become pretty polarizing and it can become pretty
easy then to create a, um, in the echo chamber
kind of church because you, you end up
marginalizing thoughts and ways of seeing things,
(26:09):
um, for people that might see it differently. Uh,
and I listen, I do think that pastors and churches
need to respond to things in culture. I think we
need to speak into injustices. I think that we
need uh, to always side with, with the
marginalized and the victimized. And like I'm so,
so I'm not like saying, saying that, you know, I'm
(26:32):
not saying that, that we ignore the voices of the
abused and the hurt. And that's one of the things
I kept trying to bring back up in when the wounded
take the mic is you know, I'm not saying that um,
at the same time if you become a statement church,
you're going to become either a red church or a
blue church. Like if, because your statements are
(26:54):
going to sound um, very uh, one sided. And um, so
for me like in the church that I pastor, we don't
make statements. What we do do is we give people
language to pray through our liturgy. And so I
think that, and this is, I wrote about this in one
(27:14):
of the substacks is um, uh, pastoral response in a
divided age through pastoral subversion. I think
that we can subvert um, some of the horrible
things happening in our culture, in our world
through different kind of practices rather than
making a statement. And that can happen in the
liturgy, uh, that can happen uh, in smaller
(27:37):
settings. Ah, because really what we need, because
when we make statements, all we're doing is
addressing the tip of the iceberg. And we're not
addressing all that has led to this like a really
terrible kingdom theology or an idolatry to
partisan politics or um, an incredibly um,
(27:58):
individualized view of my faith and my
Christianity that it's just about what happens
between God and I and my salvation is just me and
God and someday I'm just going to escape. You
know, there's just so many things like beneath the
iceberg that have to be addressed. Whereas if all
that we do is address the tip of the iceberg,
we're just going to polarize the people that are
lead, that are, that we are leading. And we're
(28:20):
never going to really address the terrible
theology that led to this atrocious thing that's
happened in culture. And so pastors have got to
find more creative and slower ways, uh, to address
these Things. So one of the, you know, there's, I
mentioned that we do that through liturgy. We also
do a school of theology here at the church that I
lead on Thursday nights. We, we do three semesters
(28:42):
of theology and two hours every Thursday night of
teaching. And that is, that is a way for me to get
at what, um, is what's happening. But what's the
thing beneath the thing, right, that's, that's
leading to these horrible things happening in our
world. Because we've got to dismantle that. And I
do think there needs to be a dismantling. One of
the things that I often talk about, and this is
(29:04):
kind of a heady freight or a meaty phrase, is the
work that churches and pastors need to do is we
need to do the work of dismantling the demonic
malformation of the Christian imagination.
>> Loren (29:16):
Love it.
>> Speaker D (29:19):
And it's demonic, all right. Because we see it in
the ways that people are reacting and the vitriol
and uh, and we've got to dismantle that before we
can really even get to the tip of the iceberg.
>> Loren (29:33):
Okay, give that to me again so I can write it
down. Dismantle the demonic.
>> Speaker D (29:38):
Dismantle the demonic malformation of the
Christian imagination.
>> Loren (29:46):
You know, as you're talking here and I'm writing,
I'm thinking of, since we've already mentioned
him, uh, Nandra. And I think it's the, I don't
know if you read the congregation in the secular
age.
>> Speaker D (29:56):
It's been a long time, but yeah.
>> Loren (29:57):
The speed of time, this sense that like, we just
gotta keep. And I think there's so much here that
we're talking about this kind of like keeping
pace, keeping up, um, where if I'm hearing you
like this theology, the school of theology, I
mean, that sounds just like so counterintuitive to
what we're all trained to do in pastoral ministry.
Like, it doesn't sound hip, it doesn't sound
(30:18):
relevant, it doesn't sound cool at all. Like a two
hour commitment on a weeknight. Like, who's got
time for that?
>> Speaker D (30:23):
Mhm. And we give them homework and it's in a
church basement with bad church coffee. But man,
it's incredible. It's one of my favorite things
that I'm seeing happening in our congregation
because it's just absolutely incredible what's
happening, uh, in these two hours every week.
>> Loren (30:41):
Yeah, I mean, that's really, uh, incredible. And
I'm just thinking about again, how do we shift
this from just trying to respond badly to culture,
to grounding people in faith and theology. So I
love that idea. I'm, uh, thinking too of.
(31:01):
You talked about liturgy as kind of equipping
people. You talked about your school of theology
as equipping people. I'm wondering how do you
frame sermons or messages to really try to.
>> Speaker D (31:17):
To.
>> Loren (31:17):
Leave room for the Spirit? I mean, I'm a part of a
preaching cohort now and one of the things that
the leader talks about is like to leave out the
lettuce sermons. Like, let us, let us go and do X,
Y and Z. Um, because obviously I believe and you
can correct me for if, if I'm wrong here. You feel
like you want to try to say something, but also
(31:37):
don't be too prescriptive. So how, how do you, uh,
how do you try to, how do you try to balance that?
>> Speaker D (31:44):
Yeah, well, first of all, I think that preachers
need to be really, really, really aware of the
language that we are using. Um, people are looking
for the gotchas. They're looking for, you know,
the phrases, the words that we're saying where
they can try to categorize where we might be
politically. And, um, we've also got to train our
(32:06):
people to think and non binary ways. Um, because
oftentimes, like if we say something, people
think, well, if you're saying that, then you must
not be this. Um, but oftentimes many things can be
true at the same time. And so, um, if we can stay
(32:27):
in the nuance and very particular issues while
also leaving room for the spirit while also not
trying to say, okay, here's now your marching
orders and here's your next three points that you
need to do. Uh, I think, think that that can
happen through a plate, through landing the sermon
in a way where it causes the listener to walk away
(32:49):
asking themselves a question. Yes, right. Um,
where they're pondering. Okay, so what does this
mean for me? What does it mean for me to move
forward in faith in this kind of way? Uh, so that
way the Holy Spirit can then begin to do that
work.
>> Loren (33:07):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
When we're thinking about speaking well,
communicating well, this, this gets back to
something that came up in your substack. And I
want to, want to talk about, you know, this in
this age of, like you said, virality or gotcha
clicks, like when it feels like people are
(33:27):
crafting sermons to, to really just have a bunch
of good, like clips, uh, for social media. Like,
how do we, how do we ensure that we're promoting
character rather than charisma? Like, this is,
this is one of the things that drives me crazy,
frankly, in ministry. This, this platforming of.
(33:48):
Of charisma rather than character.
>> Speaker D (33:54):
Yeah, that's a great question. How do we do that?
Um, well, I think it's gotta begin with modeling,
right? Like who. Who are the. Who are the
exemplars that were lifting up in our sermons? And
you know, oftentimes the exemplars that we're
lifting up in our sermons are those with. With the
charisma. They're those who are the larger than
(34:16):
life personalities. And, and oftentimes they're
usually men. Um, and I think that, you know, one
way that we can subvert that is in our preaching.
And also, who or what are we celebrating? Right.
(34:36):
I, um, mean, unfortunately, at conferences we are
platforming the people who have the charisma, who
have the platform, who have the notoriety. And
then I think even we as pastors are being shaped
and formed that. And we're tempted then also to
platforms form those voices to the people that
we're leading. But how might we instead begin to
(35:00):
amplify the voices of maybe people who aren't very
well known, but are living out the gospel with
boots on the ground, not in the auditoriums, not
in the platforms, but in their everyday, ordinary
neighborhoods?
>> Loren (35:16):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
I do want to ask you one more question before we
take a break here. You talked about, you know, so
often in the ministry we elevate the men. Uh,
certainly. Certainly ministry, historically
speaking, at least in America, has been dominated
by men. What is something that you'd like to lift
(35:37):
up, if I can ask you. So, like, as a woman in
leadership, as a woman in ministry, that men, uh,
especially like myself, could do a better job of
encouraging women in ministry or supporting maybe
a better way to say it.
>> Speaker D (35:50):
Yeah. So I think a huge thing is, um, we often
will call out people, um, who look like us.
Meaning, like, if we see potential in someone,
potential, ah, to preach or lead, uh, we look for
people that look like us. And so one of the many
reasons why we're, you know, see more, um, of the
(36:15):
voices that are in ministry and in leading
churches today are men, is because men tend to
call out men, um, and to mentor them and to, um,
lift up their gifts and to tell them that they see
something in them in a ministry. And so one thing
that men, m. In leadership could do would look
(36:36):
out, seek out those gifts in women as well.
They're there, um, for as many men as there are
with gifts to lead and to teach and preach, there
are also as many women to lead and to teach and to
preach.
>> Loren (36:48):
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing that. Um,
let's take a quick break and we'll come back with
some closing questions.
All right. We're back with Tara Beth Leach. Really
appreciate the conversation here. So some closing
questions. You're welcome to take these as
seriously or not as you'd like to. Okay, so first
(37:09):
question. If you're Pope for a day, uh, what might
that day look like for you?
>> Speaker D (37:14):
Oh, if I were Pope for a day, what might that day
look like for me? I think that I. I would
absolutely preach a biblical theology for women in
ministry.
>> Loren (37:29):
Love it. Love it.
>> Speaker D (37:31):
And advocate for women in ministry.
>> Loren (37:33):
I guess there was something. I just saw something
that there's. Supposedly there's some movement on.
And again, I don't mean this question to always
be, like, specific to Catholicism, but I guess
there was something recently I saw about some
movement toward married priests, but still nothing
towards female, uh, priests. Yeah, yeah, we gotta
get you. We gotta get you there for days.
>> Speaker D (37:54):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:55):
To do that, um, a theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Speaker D (38:02):
M. I would love to meet Christopher Wright.
Christopher J.H. wright. He is an Old Testament
theologian, biblical theologian, and he has so
transformed, um, my thinking and understanding of
the Old Testament and really enlivened just a
passion of me through the years for Covenant
(38:22):
theology and missional theology.
>> Loren (38:24):
Interesting. I'm not familiar. I'll have to check
him out. What do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (38:33):
I think history is going to remember how divided,
uh, and angry we are.
>> Loren (38:42):
Yeah. What are your hopes for the future of
Christianity?
>> Speaker D (38:48):
My m. Hopes is for a genuine Holy Spirit renewal
and revival of the church. The kind of revival
that is unifying, that impacts the culture around
her, and, uh, not just an emotive one, but one
that transforms and changes lives and raises up a
(39:09):
new generation of Christian leaders for impact.
>> Loren (39:12):
Yeah. Awesome. I hope so, man. I hope so. Like,
uh, it seems like. And I'm getting off track here,
like, I suppose, like there is some, like, legit
data, it seems like, coming out around. So I
imagine, like, you just. Just pray that. Pray that
hearts would be open, I guess, right?
>> Speaker D (39:29):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (39:30):
Pray for the Spirit's spirit, uh, to move and our
heart to be open. Share if you would. If, uh,
anything you want us about, say, about, um, your
book, your substack, how folks can get in touch
with you, check you out, any of that stuff.
>> Speaker D (39:45):
Yeah, I'm on substack. It's just Terabeth Leach
Um, so you can find me there a number of books on
Amazon. If you just do a quick Google you can find
them there. Ah, anything from women in ministry to
books about the church to uh, morning prayer
routine.
>> Loren (40:03):
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your
time. We always leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be be with.
>> Speaker D (40:09):
You and also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (40:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the
connection. Connect with us form at the bottom of
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(40:39):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD
to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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