Do Less with Less: Bill Harrison on Leadership Lessons for a Shrinking Church

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha talks with the Reverend Dr. William
Harrison. Bill is
president of Lutheran Theological Seminary,
Saskatoon and Chair of the Saskatoon
Theological Union Common Faculty. Bill
teaches systematic theology and historical
theology and ethics. In addition to his

(01:05):
PhD in Systematic Theology and Church History from
Boston College, Bill has degrees in English, uh,
literature, theology and political science.
Bill is the author of Leadership in a Shrinking Church,
Frequently Asked Questions in Christian Theology, and
In Praise of Mixed Religions. Everywhere he
goes, Bill takes music with him, listening to a broad

(01:25):
variety. And at home, he spends as much time as
possible walking trails or out in his
kayak. As a reminder, before we
start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe
to the podcast, leave a, uh, review and share
Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on
Instagram. And we appreciate your voice and how we faithfully

(01:48):
discern the future of the church.

>> Martha Tatarnic (02:00):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host
for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic.
And I'm really happy today to be joined by
the Reverend Dr. Bill Harrison. Welcome.
M. Bill, it's so great to have you on our program.

>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison (02:16):
Thank you so much, Martha. It's great to be here.

Great. So we um, we have a really
interesting conversation ahead of us,
but uh, we always, you know, like to give a
little context to our listeners
for who is speaking and uh,
where they're coming from and what they're saying.
So maybe Bill, you can just start
us off by sharing a little bit about your faith journey.

(02:41):
What it has looked like in the past and what it
looks like now.

Sure. Um, so I'd say it's a
journey into greater and greater complexity.
Um, one of my, one of my little kind
of self description things that I used in a sermon once
and then it stuck was that I've become the complexity
fly. I, I, I fly around saying, you know,
it's always more complicated than that. I actually,

(03:07):
I actually grew up in a fundamentalist context.
Um, and, and that, you know, it
had A fairly clear, fairly simple sense
of what Christianity is all about. And
for me, that, that really fell apart uh, when
I became an undergraduate and you know, did a
whole variety of reading, started tackling, um,

(03:28):
more complex and interesting questions. So it kind
of went beyond the community in which I grew
up. Um, that's actually when I became an
Anglican, which is, I mean, I guess what I officially
am. Um, and for me
that that shift was uh, in large
part about being able to hear and hold,
uh, a variety of different voices.

(03:50):
Um, since then I've done a whole bunch of
ecumenical work so that,
um, I feel very comfortable in a whole
variety of Christian contexts. Um, I've
spent 12 years as co chair of the Anglican United
Dialogue here in Canada. Um, now
eight years as president of a Lutheran seminary.

(04:10):
I'm really involved with the association
of Theological Schools, which means that I could
find myself, um, visiting a Roman
Catholic seminary, a Presbyterian seminary. In
fact, a bunch of my theological education was actually in a Roman
Catholic context. Um, so,
so I've, I've kind of encountered

(04:30):
a lot of, of Christianities and done some
thinking about, uh, interreligious relationships.
So I would say that, that my
Christianity now is,
it's, it's complex and it expects
complex questions and, and
it's about a lot of openness and about a lot
of listening, which doesn't mean, you know, don't come to

(04:53):
conclusions, but it means try not to jump
to them. Um, and, and try to be,
try to be attentive. Attentive, uh, to what
people are saying and attentive to the different ways in which
people encounter God.

Yeah, yeah, I, I, I
like that. Sort of leaning into the complexity. And
I can imagine that that would
have been a, an
important, um, place to
find some freedom and a home.
Um, as you were sort of finding

(05:28):
one version of Christianity
falling apart, um,
and looking for something else,
uh, I think it can be the great
gift and the great
frustration of our particular form
of Christianity is sometimes just how

(05:48):
much we lean into the complexity. But would we
really want it any different?

Yeah, well, um, and that's the challenge, right?
I mean, one of the challenges that I think we'll be talking about is
kind of communicating the good news. And that's a whole
lot more complicated. When you just started out by assuming that
Christianity is pretty complicated and the world's pretty
complicated, right, because it doesn't lend
itself to the quick and easy, um,
answer, you know, the four spiritual laws or whatever. I

(06:16):
mean, that, that's all just, it starts out
as an oversimplification and takes you.
Um, so. So when you start out with the idea
that it's all pretty complicated and uh, and that God
works in different and interesting ways with, with different
people, um, becomes a
different kind of way of being. But, but I think it's a richer

(06:36):
and more satisfying one for me.

Yeah, for sure. I also like,
um. As you're naming those
voyages across different Christian
context, I often like to
sort of note the different Christian
dialects that we have. Like, there are
just different ways of talking that we have

(06:59):
in our expressions.
And it's good to have some fluency
in understanding those different
dialects, I think. So you must be pretty
fluent.

Uh, I do have the feeling of
being pretty multilingual in Christianity. I do
have this sense that I can walk, talk into a whole variety
of Christian contexts and, and have a
sense of what people are really getting at with,
with the different languages that, that people
use. So. But it, you know, it's always a

(07:32):
journey too, um, because, you know,
natives in any language always use it
with kind of subtlety that, that those of us who,
who are learning different languages as we go
need, need always to be attentive to.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.
So in all of that, uh, traveling
across the Christian landscape and serving in a
variety of contexts, is there a
spiritual practice that you're finding
particularly meaningful right now that you might want to share with
our listeners?

Sure. I'm actually going to cheat
and toss a couple at you. Uh,
uh, one of them is actually just my writing.
Ah. Which is if part of what we're going to talk about
today. Um, my writing is probably my most
important spiritual practice. That's when I really try to
come to grips with what God is saying to me.

(08:27):
For me, that's when I sit
down and say, okay, what is this for real?
And that's when I spot the
vagaries, the fuzzy bits,
um, the pieces of data that I may be
leaving out. Um, that's, that's
kind of when it, when, when there's a certain amount of kind of

(08:47):
rubber hits the road, when I actually sit down to ride it.
But it. That's also balanced, I'm going to say,
by as much time as I can manage in my kayak out on
the lake. Um, I'm, I'm deeply,
deeply blessed. We have a condo, uh, on a small
lake in British Columbia. And, uh, and
basically between March and November I get out every
day that I can. And, and I find that it's, it's

(09:09):
very meditative. I, I have always been
able to see, go work
in and behind the
created order. And so just.
Just being out in the kayak, it's
remarkable how many
unimportant things start to fall away
and, uh, and how much I have a sense of. Of

(09:31):
God's presence with me and uh, and
of being able to. To hear God.

Beautiful. I, um,
I really relate to those. To spiritual
practices. I mean, for me it's running rather
than kayaking. But like you, writing is
a, uh, really powerful spiritual practice for
me. And I think in both cases,
um, it isn't

(09:58):
like, both cases are just such an experience of
grace as well. Like, it,
uh. It's always amazing to me
to read back my
writing and feel like
there's this real partnership that
I get to be part of that

(10:18):
it's not just me who's doing this.
Um, it's the real receiving of
that relationship. So, yeah,
thank you for sharing that. Uh,
we have lots of people
listening to the show serving in different contexts
across the church. And we're always all

(10:41):
looking for kind of those practical ways
that we grow and are
healthy in our relationship with God. So thank you.
So, as I teased at the beginning, um,
we have a really interesting topic to
get into today, and that is
your newly published book, which is

(11:01):
called Leadership in a Shrinking
Finding New Vision in Unlikely
Places. Um, I have
lots to, um, reflect on and have been
reflecting on in reading it.
Uh, but this is about you. So why
don't you start by telling us
a bit about the context in which you serve, which

(11:24):
is a pretty big player, I
would say, in how this book came about.
So maybe you can just talk about that, what you were seeing
and what prompted you to write this book.

Sure, yeah. And in fact, I begin the book with
a bit of a story about arriving where I
am. I'm a Lutheran Theological Seminary based
in Saskatoon and serving, um,
the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada,
predominantly across Western Canada.
So I arrived at LTS, um, back

(11:56):
in 2017, um, and I'm
the president there. And I realized that we
faced some challenges. Um,
nothing was quite working.
The whole system was a bit
troubled. People, um,
were at odds. It

(12:16):
was kind of an. It was
an unsettling experience. And. And the
interesting thing is that everyone was locating
the problem in a different place. So I, you know, I would
hear from sort of different people, yeah,
we've got a problem. Here's where it is. Yeah, we've got a problem.
Here's where it is.
Um, thing is that

(12:38):
most of the challenges that people were naming were real,
but. But they didn't seem like
the challenge. They felt like
challenges. Um, and as I examined the
situation, yeah, I realized that none of them were
actually the problem. The problem was
that the seminary had become small and the

(12:58):
system didn't know it yet. What had happened was
that over time, it had, you know, shrunk
a bit here, shrunk a bit there, shrunk a bit here, shrunk a
bit there. And even as
it got smaller here and there,
um, it didn't necessarily kind of of get
smaller in its. Its sense of. Of what it was

(13:19):
supposed to do or where it was supposed to do it or. Or
even really how it was supposed to do it.
Um, so.
So basically my. My shift
was to say, okay, um, this institution has
gotten smaller. What do they train us to do
when an institution is getting smaller? Actually, the

(13:40):
answer is they don't train us.

Yeah, that's right.

Two institutions getting smaller. In our world,
getting smaller is mostly seen as failure.

Yes.

Nobody prepares us for it. Right.

Truly. Truly. Yeah.

And so that's kind of what launched the book. It was sort of,
okay, we've got to start thinking about leadership
in this situation in which getting smaller
is. Is a reality.

Yeah, yeah. Because, I mean, everything that you're describing
in the seminary is absolutely
paralleled in the experience of
congregations and other forms of
Christian ministry right across the board. So,
um, yeah. Although I don't serve in a
seminary, reading the opening of your book felt

(14:26):
exceptionally relatable. Like,
yeah, that is the situation. And you're right. Like,
we are not prepared for it because
shrinking is failing.
And, I mean, that really leads me into my
next question, which is, like, we
interview a lot of people on the future Christian.
For example, like, Loren just released

(14:48):
an episode this week, I think,
um, looking at Robert Schuller's
biography, which is called the Church Must Grow
or Perish. Like,
that's not just the title of Robert
Schuller's, uh, attitude. Like,
that is the title of,

(15:09):
um, the ax that is
hanging over all of our heads a lot of the
time. Um, ah, that's what it
feels like. So
this doesn't come from nowhere, obviously.
Everybody likes to grow and succeed
and feel like we're flourishing
in obvious and measurable

(15:31):
ways. But that idea of
numerical growth is also just, like,
incredibly,
um, layered into the DNA
of what we think we're supposed to be doing as Christians.
And I know a lot of the people that we talk
to on this podcast would fully
subscribe to the notion that numerical

(15:53):
growth is what we're supposed to be
doing. Because we are supposed to be sharing the
gospel, the good news. And if you are
sharing the gospel, then you will be growing.
Now, you, like, really take to
task that numerical growth model
right at the outset. So

(16:15):
why don't you take it to task right here?

Okay, absolutely. I mean, you're right.
Um, and of course, I mean, there is a growth thing that's,
you know, part of modernity and whatnot. Uh,
but there is also a deeper narrative
that, that it's just there in Christianity pretty
much from the beginning. If, if you look in the Book of Acts,
it's, you know, the text is punctuated with

(16:40):
references to many people, sometimes thousands.
Yeah.

You know, thousands in a day.

Yeah. And that day 3,000 were added and that
day 5,000. You know, it's, it's that kind of numbers
and, you know, there's a sense that this is good
news and everybody's going to flock to it. And
so. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's something that's, that's,
that's kind of part of, as you say, our DNA.
And, you know, there are parts of the world where Christianity

(17:08):
is, is seeing numerical growth. Um, but
in what I call the Anglosphere, you know,
Australasia, Canada, the uk, US
Um, we're seeing numerical decline overall. Have been
for quite some time, and it's pretty substantial.
So I'd like to jump in and emphasize two
things as people think about this.

(17:28):
Um, the first is that people just actually
aren't joining voluntary organizations at
all. Um, this just about
church. This is. They're
not joining, um, the Lions Club, the
Knights of Pythias, the Sweet Adelines, you name it.
And it's true throughout the scouting movement.

The, um, you know, local bands,
like.

All of the things, political
parties, um, you name it,
um, you know, even, even ones where
historically it's been a money maker for people to, to
join the organization. They're not. And even when people
will join the professional organizations, they're not jumping
in in a voluntary sort of way in the way
that they once did. Um, and,

(18:15):
uh, uh, Robert Putnam wrote Bowling
Alone. It came out back in 2000 and was
reissued in 2020. And, and he pointed this out.
And now there, there are all sorts of things to critique about,
about Putnam's argument, but nobody disagrees with his
basic point, which is that voluntary
organizations are, are shrinking.

(18:36):
So, so making the assumption
that getting church right is going to add members
ends up being just laying out an unrealistic
assumption. It gets the sociology wrong.
My concern that that may
be even a deeper One is that I
actually think there's a theological problem with the

(18:58):
way we go at it too. When we
focus on numbers, we tend to emphasize one
decision. Now that decision differs
depending on who you are and where you are in church.
Um, you know, it might be the choice to attend church.
It might be the choice to be baptized. It, it
might be, you know, you might use language of committing your life to

(19:19):
Christ. Um, but,
but it tends to be, you know, you've got to
make this decision to do this. And so, you know, you'll
be in church and you know, we'll all be
happy, our churches are growing, et cetera.
Um, I would argue that it's, it's a
theological and a practical failure.
Um, John Bowen uses an

(19:41):
analogy. He describes it a bit as being a bit
like someone moving from 49 to 50 on a
100 point scale. That's not a great
analogy. It's got its limits. But it's a helpful
reminder, um, that you know,
you're only talking about a relatively small
proportion of what it is to

(20:01):
be Christian. And from where
I sit, Christian formation is about more
than just one decision. Um,
Christian participation in God's transformation of the
world is about far more than one decision. And
so if we're preaching for numbers, then we
probably aren't really sharing the good news in its

(20:21):
fullness. And we might not be sharing it for the
right reasons.

Yeah, yeah, I think, um, that right
reasons piece is really important as well.
And you know, I guess I would just add to that like
so much of the experience of
that ax hanging over our heads like
grow or perish, it ends up being about
competition and just competing

(20:48):
for a smaller and smaller piece of
the pie. And that doesn't feel particularly,
uh, gospel oriented either, to be
honest.

Yeah, in some of the work that I've done in the past,
um, one of the things I've noticed is that,
um, when you see a, uh,
congregation in an area in a
city growing fairly rapidly,
usually what you see is something of a dip
in the attendance in the
congregation surrounding it. Um, there

(21:21):
are probably, um, some
added new members to the church. Um,
but commonly what you're doing is seeing,
um, what sometimes people call
circulation of the saints. Um, they're just,
they're just moving, um, because, I don't know,
there's a new exciting clergy person or
there's just more going on in that congregation or

(21:43):
whatever.

Better coffee,
bigger parking lot.

Yeah. Um, you know, somehow they're,
they're sort of thriving at that moment. But it,
but it mostly Isn't changing the. The
actual dynamic of, of the church or
its contrib to, To God's transformation
of the world?

No, you're definitely not arguing in all of that
that, um, that the gospel doesn't matter,
that sharing the gospel doesn't matter.
So what is it that.
Why don't you talk to us a little bit about how
you reframe that model and
specifically around transformation.

Okay, so that word complex that,
That I began with, um, that one comes
right back at us here because I actually
argue that, uh, the
transformation that we want to see in ourselves, want to see
in the church, want to see in the world, the
transformation that God is working in the world
is actually much more complex,

(22:46):
um, than we tend to make it sound.
Um, uh, and so I actually
lean on, um, a Canadian Jesuit
theologian and philosopher, Bernard Lonergan,
and argue that there are actually
four aspects of transformation,
um, that we're wise to attend to, that we

(23:07):
would like to see in ourselves and that we really want to see
in the world that really are about what God
is doing in the world. Um, and
so those four kinds of transformation are
intellectual, psychic,
moral and religious. And I think it's kind of
interesting that religious comes

(23:28):
last in the list. Um,
and I'll say why in a moment. Um,
but intellectual transformation is actually about
learning to ask and answer the relevant
questions. Um, and that means asking questions
about things that we don't necessarily want to ask about
and incorporating data that we don't necessarily want to

(23:50):
incorporate, um, and
seriously checking our own work so that
we can really honestly say, yeah, we really did
ask and answer the relevant questions before we came to
a conclusion. Um, we like to
jump to conclusions. And we see a lot
of that in our contemporary world where you get

(24:10):
the conclusion that you wanted. Um, and the results
can really be pretty destructive. And I would argue
that you can't base a Christianity on.
On dishonesty. It's, um,
it's got to be based on. On a real
transformation there. Um, but the,
the mind isn't all that we are. Right.

(24:31):
Um, there's also psychic
transformation that pays attention to our
emotions, to our kind of internal, symbolic lives.
Um, finding ways that, that we work
emotionally so that we can understand how that
has an impact on the people around us, has
an impact on the world, has an impact on our own

(24:51):
thinking and understanding. And
moral transformation, um, is
about paying attention, yes, to our intellectual
and our psychic stuff and the conclusions that come
from that, uh, allowing those to have an impact on
our decisions about right and wrong. And also Being
prepared to consider the larger questions that touch

(25:11):
others and not just focusing on self interest.
What makes all of that possible is what I
would argue is religious, uh, transformation.
In fact, what Bernard argues, um,
is the encounter with love that enables
us to live in love. It's not true that all you need is
love. On the other hand, it is true that you need love,

(25:33):
um, because love is precisely
what actually drives you forward to try to understand
the world, to try to understand yourself, and
to try to do what God would call you
to do in the world.

Okay, well, going through, um,
those four transformations, you can definitely see
the appeal of the one and done version
of Christianity where there is
just kind of an easy black and white
answer. Um, we don't have to
think about it too much.

(26:08):
Um, but then what you describe
is, um, so
resonant, I think, with
what we really see in our
congregations, in our ministries,
in not just our ministries and our churches,
but how we do attempt to live as
Christians in the world. Like those

(26:30):
transformations are descriptive of where we
see God at work in our world.

I think they really are. Um, I think
those are the kinds of things that we,
um, when we see progress and
transformation in ourselves, those are the kinds of things
that we're talking about and they are
often the things that we focus on. You
know, when people buy things like self help books, those are

(26:57):
often the kinds of things that they're
seeking to develop. Um, one of the things I
would say also is that
they are the kinds of
transformations that we hope for when we
engage with, you know, issues and
questions in the contemporary

(27:18):
world and they allow
us, uh, when we realize that those are
the kinds of things that we're working toward, Um,
I think they really help us to figure out, okay,
how is my position relating to somebody else's
position? Am I being fully
open? Am I, um,

(27:38):
actually asking and answering all of the
relevant questions? Um, are there emotional
issues that are just causing me to
have a kind of gut reaction that prevents me from
really hearing the person.
Um, and okay,
am I really caring about the world here

(27:59):
or is this one kind of serving
me under the guise of caring for the world?
Is it really love in action at the moment, or
am I kind of limited by, by some of these sorts of
pieces?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think very simply put,
like, is it actually about
attending to the presence and activity of God or is
it about me, you know?

Yes.

Like, is it about affirming me
and uh, and at the end
of the day, like redefining what
a, ah, thriving church Looks like,
um, I think allows a pretty massive
exhale in this time and place.

Yeah. And moving from the me
or my in group or my,
um, you know, my social group, my cultural group,
um, the thing is that that's actually where a lot
of us are trapped in our churches without even
necessarily fully realizing it. Because churches
are, um, you know, they, they have

(29:04):
cultural histories, they have linguistic histories,
um, and uh, and those can
become real,
um, they have been
real ways of reaching people and enabling people to connect
to God. That's a good thing. Uh,
but they can also become boundaries and uh, even
barriers in relation to other people when

(29:27):
other people speak different languages, uh, in including different
languages about God, uh, when they approach
questions differently, um, when they
say, raise questions that didn't even show up in our,
in our framework. Uh, and so,
and so I see these
transformations as ways to cross a
lot of those boundaries across a lot of those barriers.

(29:49):
And uh, yes, it's a complex activity,
but hey, actually one of the cool things about
humanity is that we are actually equipped for, for
pretty complex kinds of judgments and
really complex ways of, of thinking and being.

Yeah, that's absolutely true.
Um, so when I was
reading the book, there was a, ah, particular
section that really
impacted me. Um,
it made me feel very seen.
I, um, think a lot of people listening to the podcast

(30:27):
might feel the same way. I'm just going to read
directly from um, what you've said
here because I think it's incredibly important.
So you're talking about outlining the history
of the role of the pastor, priest,
minister, and you say the priorities of
presbyters have changed multiple times over

(30:48):
the past millennium, which is a good thing. However,
the role of presbyters has not generally moved
from one model to the next. Instead, presbyters
have commonly been expected to keep the old
rule while adding the new.
The result has been a destructive
transformation by accumulation
in which the responsibilities of presbyters

(31:10):
have increased until they are simply untenable.
It has become too big a task for anyone.
Do you want to just say a bit more about
what that, ah,
destructive transformation by accumulation
looks like? I, and I mean, I want you to
speak to it, but I think any of us who are

(31:32):
serving the church right now could probably
put together a pretty compelling paragraph
about what that looks like.

Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, put bluntly, it really
is crushing, um, people
in that role. I use the word presbyter.
It's based in the Greek. It helps me to avoid all
the different terms. Uh, but yeah, nearly all
churches have people in that role, and they're all
feeling the pressure. So what I do in the book

(32:02):
is I go back roughly a thousand years to
look at the way that the Presbyterian role has
developed. And what's happened is
that there's just been a succession of
priorities to the church that have been reflected in the
presbyteral rule. And those
pieces have just been sort of

(32:22):
piled on prior pieces. So, you
know, in the Middle Ages, the late Middle Ages,
at least, the priority for
presbyters was, uh, the sacramental
rule. It was, um, you know,
baptism M. It was
the mass, um, it was burial,

(32:43):
um, and perhaps especially, um, the Mass.
And one of the interesting things about that is
that for that sacramental role to
connect to people, it also had
buildings, uh, very visibly connected
to it. So that there was an enormous,
um, building spree, uh,

(33:05):
for a significant chunk of. Of what we think of as the High
Middle Ages. Um, so you get the
sacramental role and the buildings that come with it. And of course,
Presbyterians end up being, you know, some
rich people decide they want a building that. That, you know,
shows off their community and their riches and everything, and
they. They, you know, provide that. And then basically, you know, they walk
away, and the presbyter kind of has to take care of it.

(33:27):
Um, and then, you know, Luther
and the Reformation, there's a move to
the emphasis on preaching, on
proclamation. That does not rule out
the sacramental emphasis that gets added to
it. And that in itself,
um, is. I mean, Luther doesn't

(33:48):
expect that to be super complicated. He also doesn't
expect it to be just the work of a presbyter. Uh,
but in fact, that's how it develops in part because we end up with a
whole variety of denominations, which, again, adds more
buildings. Um,
uh, and we end up with presbyters who then not
only have to know, so they have

(34:08):
a fairly clear sense of what they see the gospel as being about.
They've also got to be able to make a whole bunch of distinctions.
The average layperson can't distinguish a
Zwinglian reading, uh, of
the Eucharist from a Lutheran reading, from an Anglican reading.
Presbyters are supposed to be able to. They're supposed to get this right.
Um, so it's a whole kind of intellectual thing and a whole bunch more

(34:29):
buildings. And then in the
whole modern period, um, there are a whole bunch of
philosophical and, um,
theological movements that actually make
understanding the Gospel and thinking it
much more complicated. Um,
partly because of the way that we read texts now,

(34:49):
which is much more complex activity than it was in
like the 16th or 17th century, partly also
because of how we think about relating to God. This whole got
more complicated. And that means, you
know, so now when a
presbyter prepares a sermon, there's a kind
of expectation around a whole bunch of, um,
commentaries and a whole bunch of kind of thinking that they'll do.

(35:12):
Um, and so this, this kind of
sits on top. And then in the
20th century, the whole bunch of professional
expectations that emerge. Pastoral care
ceases to be just a kind of fairly basic activity that
grows out of your theology or grows out of, you know,
your personal, Personal care becomes a highly
professionalized activity at which you're highly trained and in

(35:33):
which there's a high set of expectations set,
um, that's, that's completely formalized and
is bounded by a whole bunch of,
um, you know, insurance issues
and a whole bunch of, uh, you know, formal
professionalization issues and legal issues.
Um, and of course the 20th century tossed, uh, in

(35:54):
a whole bunch more buildings with a huge building spree in the post
World War II era. There's also a whole kind of
professionalization around management and
leadership that
presbyters are supposed to be up on. They
don't have to have an mba, but on the other hand they're
supposed to know some things about building management, about human
resources management, et cetera, that once

(36:15):
upon a time they didn't have to know.
And um, this all gets
piled on them. And then there's the digital
shift. Uh, and suddenly is supposed
to be able to do all this and, and do
it, um, while, uh,
while connecting to people online and, and living in,

(36:35):
in the digital world. And, and it, it
just becomes enormous. It's, it's just not,
it's just not sustainable.

Yeah, I mean, when you go through the list like that,
I, I feel
simultaneously a little panicky
because I know that list, um,
and affirmed. And I mean, I do want to
just say that

(37:05):
it is one of the joys of the job is
the complexity that you get to
continue to be a work in progress. I
legitimately enjoyed learning how
social media works to some degree, although my
kids still think I'm terrible at it. But
I enjoy new challenges, I enjoy

(37:26):
figuring things out. I enjoy
seeing, um, spending my
days in a whole variety of ways. But I
also, and I've been pretty open about this over the
years. Like, I also know
that hamster wheel that we can get on,
um, and how easy it is

(37:47):
to buy into the idea that if
I just do more and more and more and
like, um,
keep pedaling as fast as I
possibly can, then I'm going to
personally save this dying
church. And I'm not talking about, like, a, uh,

(38:07):
specific congregation. I've been able to
serve churches that have in many ways
experienced growth and flourishing. But, you
know, the institutional weight of
decline is always with us.
And, and it is so easy
in the midst of that enormous job

(38:27):
description to take on a messiah complex
and, and think that
really the job is just about doing more and
more and more and more.
Um, and spoiler alert, like,
it doesn't.
There's a limit to that.

Yeah, well, and. And it ends up. You end up with a
job that's kind of defined by tasks with too long a list of
tasks. Um, and, uh.
And yeah, I mean, I would argue that if
attendance numbers were rising, um, the
load might have been sort of sustainable, at least in part because,
as you say, I mean, there's a certain amount of joy in

(39:07):
being able to do a whole variety of things.
It's, you know, I've also done parish ministry, and, and
it's one of the things I enjoyed about parish ministry.
Um, my wife also does parish ministry, and it's part
of what she enjoys about parish ministry. You know, there are a variety
of directions you can go, a variety of things you can do, and
there's always this feeling of, you know, growing

(39:27):
personally as you grow and learn
and, you know, all
great. Um, the problem is
that, um, you.
As, as the church shrinks, there tends
to be less financial and human capacity to pick
up when the load becomes too much

(39:49):
and there it ceases to become.
Um, you know, I can do these things really well and I can
focus on these, and some other people or some other
congregations can focus on these different things.
Um, and instead we're all just feeling the
stress of there are no
longer resources to sustain this,

(40:10):
and it ceases to be, uh, you know, you've got the
opportunity to do a bunch of things and becomes. You've
got the pressure to do a bunch of things. You're supposed
to do everything. You're supposed to be pretty good at everything, because
if you aren't good at everything, it's actually, it's not going to
work. The church is going to continue to
shrink. And, uh, there's also this thing

(40:31):
about, um, the way that growth
tends to help people to forgive presbyters
who can't do everything. Um, you know, if,
if numbers are growing, then, then the fact that the
presbyter might preach really well, might
not be so great at presiding or, or might do
pastoral care really well, but the preaching isn't

(40:51):
ideal. Um, or, or might
actually be, um, be just,
you know, not very good with social media or whatever. There's,
there's, there's plenty of room for, for, you know, trying to
saying, well, you know, we're growing anyway and it's all doing fine.
When numbers are shrinking and we've all been trained
that success looks like the numerical model,

(41:13):
um, then presbyters personally feel
the pressure of all that they're expected to do.
And they're also first in line to get blamed for what
looks like failure. You know, everybody wants the, uh,
young sort of social media,
uh, able clergy person that they figure they can
get who can turn the whole thing around. And if you're not that,
then you're not that. Um, and

(41:38):
it's really completely, um, missing
a point about the work that God's doing in the world.
Um, and I would say it's really unhealthy
for the church as well as being really unhealthy for
presbyters.

Yeah. And there is a corollary to that as well, which
I think is important to name because we have church
leaders of all different kinds of stripes who
listen to this podcast and
contribute, uh, to this podcast. And
that, um, accumulation
of role can affect people

(42:11):
in other parts of ministry and the
church as well. I mean, you document it very well in
the role of the presbyter, but, like
the professionalization of church
wardens and treasurers and music directors
and like, all of those, um,
accumulation of tasks. And everybody is,

(42:31):
is holding the bag on, like,
whether our efforts are leading to
growth or not. Um, so.
And I think that you do a really good job in the book of
describing the ways that anxious
systems start to operate when
everybody's feeling that pressure point.

(42:53):
Um, I have to say, like, I,
I have limited
patience, um, for
addressing clergy burnout with
self care, because,
I mean, I'm a fan of self care. It's just that

(43:13):
self care doesn't get at
the problem and in fact can feel kind
of isolating because it turns it
back on the, on the clergy person
again. Like, you just need to be better about your
day off and maybe get a hobby and stuff
like that. Um, but it doesn't

(43:34):
address the bigger issues that
are leading to the problem. So,
like, what do you think the role is
across individual congregations? And then I'm
really interested in knowing what you think the
broader denominational role needs to
be in, um,

(43:55):
helping to,
uh, address these realities.
Unsustainable realities, really.

Right. Um, well, I mean,
my first straight answer, uh,
at the congregational level perhaps especially is
frankly, do less with less.
I, um, know
I have a leadership coach. My leadership coach does not like my
phrase do less with less.

Oh really? You use
it quite a few times in the book.

Yeah, because more with less is the idea
that we have. Right.

Yeah.

Function more efficiently, you get more done
working, you know. But the reality is that I actually
think that it's time for churches to start saying
no, we can't do as much as
we would like to do. Uh, we just have to recognize
it and do less with less and,
and be really, uh, intentional about it.

(44:51):
Figuring out what you're really about, figuring out how
you're going to participate in God's transformation of the world and
focus on that, um, instead
of really trying to kind of
COVID all the bases the way that they used to cover them.
And I think that plays into the
denominational piece. Um, you know, there are

(45:13):
some ways that, you know, we're expanding the
roles of some lay leaders and that's a good
thing. And you know, seminaries, for instance, are
participating in that broadening of
sense of what ministry is and preparing people,
um, and working on programs to extend the skills
of presbyters and others in tate accountable

(45:33):
ministry. But those are really, Those
are adjustments in a system where the system
itself is not really working and the
adjustments aren't going to change the fundamental
dynamic. So what do I see happening, ah, at. At the
denominational level that's, that's going to matter.
I actually think that it's going to be. To be
less and less denominational. I

(45:55):
actually think that we're reaching a point
where um, the.
The focus on being denominational,
um, is. Is not,
uh, Is not really helpful. And so that's
why, I mean one of the chapters in the book is, Is
in fact about. About partnering and

(46:15):
um, you know, fill in some of those
details. Uh, but it's actually that
partnering that working beyond denominations,
indeed working beyond the Christian community,
um, that I think, uh, makes sense.
I think it's also going to
be, um, to be prepared to be quite

(46:35):
supportive of,
um, closure of congregations, uh,
recognizing that the existing
denominational structures just aren't
going to make it so really,
um, denominations need to reconcile
themselves to a world in which they are
smaller and getting smaller

(46:58):
and they'd have to move into different
arrangements. I could say in the context where
I am, um, we,
uh, as a seminary, moved out of a building that, you
know, people really valued and it was designed and built
for us back in the 1960s.
And, uh, it was, you know,
an enormous building, nearly 60,000 square

(47:21):
feet. Um, and it just had
nothing to do with our contemporary needs
and moved into a smaller space to share with
a couple of other denominational schools. And we're doing more to
integrate. And it's going to be that kind
of experience. I, um, think across
denominations.

Yeah, I think you're
absolutely right. And, um,
a big key, I think, in all
of this in parish
and on the denominational level is
starting with honesty about what's going on,
which I think, I think is

(48:01):
super important about your book, like
naming the truth and then living
into it, um, instead of trying to
pretend it's not happening,
um, your biggest chapter in the
book is devoted to a particular tool
that. I don't know, like, did you develop this tool

(48:21):
or is this, uh, is a specifically
Harrisonian tool? Okay.

I mean, it's based on all sorts of other things that I've worked
with through the years. And it's probably not going to
sound wildly different to people. Um, but no, this is
a specifically, uh, my development
piece.

So it is a gospel vision statement.
So why don't you tell us what a gospel
vision statement is and what its core
elements are.

Sure. Uh, and so a
gospel vision statement, there are a couple
of things to remember right from the outset
that are going to differentiate it. And
one is that it is an internal
statement for a congregation that
tells it what it's really about as an

(49:10):
institution. Um, well, congregation,
school, whatever. Um, and so it's
internal. It's actually intended for the people
who really participate and are
very much a part of helping the institution
to go where it.

It's not the slogan for the front sign.

It is not the slogan for the front sign. That
that mission statement that we've all been told that we have to have
and that. That everybody kind of has and. And puts out
there. Um, those things tend to
be really, really general. Um, and
they tend to be really welcome. And they actually tend to focus on
welcoming everybody because that's what we want to communicate to

(49:49):
ourselves and to the world. And that's great as far as it
goes. Except that the second thing to remember
is that actually a gosp to
being actually a bit exclusionary. And,
uh. I know. And you know that. I know
that it gets really weird when you start talking about the gospel
and being exclusionary, except that it's just

(50:10):
true that not every institution, not every
congregation, not every seminary,
not every judicatory actually fits
the life of everybody. Um, and there are
going to be some people who are going to be happier at,
at the church down the street for whatever reason than they
are at yours. Um, and that's
fine.

That's the doing less with less
in action. You don't have to be
all things to all people.

That's right.
And so what a gospel vision statement asks for are
four things, one of which is a sense of mission.
And in this case a sense of mission is
about the aspects of
transformation. You know, those four transformations we've talked
about, intellectual, psychic, moral and religious.
How is your uh,

(50:59):
congregation, um,
actually seeking to live those out
and to engage those in the world? So it's
about transformation. It's a gospel vision
statement. It's not just a, like
a mission statement strategic plan.

It's like it is gospel. Ah, okay.

Gospel driven. And yeah, I mean
it's a good basis for a strategic plan. But. But yeah,
it's the reason I use the language of gospel vision
statement, which sometimes makes people uncomfortable, but it's supposed to
keep out right out front that the whole
thing is actually about the,
um, is really about that
vision for the gospel, for the transformation that we're

(51:41):
trying to build.
Um, and so it then
asks about the location. So where,
whom are you trying to reach? And commonly
that'll be a neighborhood or a city
or a couple of townships or something.
Um, online, um, it may

(52:02):
be delineated differently. I mean the location is going to be
something of a virtual location. It's not going to be
in that way a physical location. But, but you're going to have
to, to decide whom are you trying to reach, where
are they located? Um,
and then so mission
location, identity. Identity is

(52:22):
who you are, the core pieces of your self
understanding for today and tomorrow.
Um, and you know, if you
are, um,
uh, a pretty lively, um, kind of
charismatic style congregation with a praise band and
whatnot. And that's working for you, you know, that's
wonderful. And if that's what's drawing people to you and

(52:44):
that's who you are and how you worship,
that's great. There's no point in trying to become,
um, a, uh, you know, a
sort of tightly liturgical,
um, congregation with
you know, a big organ and whatever, because
that's just not who you are. So you need to

(53:04):
decide who you are. And that's part of what will in
fact end up being a bit exclusionary. Then there's
the resources. So mission, location, identity,
resources. And the fun thing about resources
is that we're used to thinking of resources as things that
we have, you know, our financial resources Our people,
um, I ask us to think about resources

(53:24):
to which we have access. So they
don't have to be ours. They can come from all sorts of
partners which might be. Might be of
our denomination, might be of a different denomination, might be of a different
religion, might be no religion at all.
Um, and that's part of starting to try to think this out
beyond denominationalism because.

(53:45):
Because frankly, denominations aren't helpful around, Around a
lot of this. So it's about how are we
going to participate in transformation in the world
and whom are we going to reach
and how are we going to reach them, and what do
we have to make it happen? And the reality is
that, uh, by and large, you

(54:05):
don't have a gospel call that goes
beyond the resources to which you have access to.
You may have to stretch in terms of getting access
to the resources. But basically, if the resources aren't there,
it's probably not your mission.
And one of the risks that we run, um,
that leads to all that stress that we've talked about

(54:26):
is that,
um, we try to
draw a vision that is actually far
beyond the capacity of, of. Of our
congregation, the capacity of our financial
resources, whatever. Um, so that the
resources are actually going to narrow,
um, what it is that. That we can

(54:48):
do, just as our identity narrows it
and, and the specificity of location narrows it.
So basically, yeah, I mean, Martha's point about this
is another instance of do less with less. Yeah. This is actually
about do less with less. This is about. So
focus specifically on the transformation that
you're trying to see.

Yeah. And I think that you do a really good job of
balancing that,
uh, leap in faith that ministry
always is. Like, there is always a leap in faith
with, um, just
very practical assessment of what it is
that you actually have to work with and who

(55:28):
you've been historically. Like, if you've historically,
you know, being, um,
like a tortoise, don't try to
market yourself as a stallion.
Like. Right. Like, just
be who. Be who you are is
also, uh, an important part of that. And

(55:50):
actually another message that you say along with do less
with less, you say that the message of the book could be like,
we're called to be who we are called to be.

Yeah. Um, know your mission. Play within
it. Um, one of the, the more
interesting conversations that I've had more than once in,
in work with, with congregations in the past is,
you know, why aren't we a megachurch? How, how
can we be, you know, one of those enormous churches like that
one down on, on the Freeway, where they've got, you know,

(56:21):
they've got these enormous parking lots, et cetera, et cetera.
It's okay. Look, you're a
small neighborhood congregation.

Yeah.

Um, you're built around this set of kind of
intimate relationships. There's a warmth of support
and welcome that comes from. From
you and, and the kind of ways in which you care for
one another. Actually, I can tell you
how to turn yourself into a big church
because there's. There's actually some fairly straightforward

(56:51):
formula stuff for that. But you know what, but
that's not what you're called to be. You wouldn't like it.
All of you would leave before this place became
a big church. Um, why?
Uh, you know, your building doesn't do it. The space doesn't
do it. The people who are here don't do it. Um,
we would have to change absolutely everything.

(57:12):
Um, so, you know, know your mission. Play
within it. God calls and equips us to do what
God calls and equips us to do. We don't have to
be all things to all people. Um, we're
called to participate in God's transformation
in the world. And we're called to be
ourselves transformed.
And so it's focusing

(57:35):
on that message of God's transformation in
our lives and in the lives of the world.
That's where it's got to be.

Yeah, that's where it's got to be.
I want to plug for,
um, our listeners that throughout the book,
uh, you have questions at the end of
every chapter. And, um, you
provide ample examples of
what a gospel, ah, vision statement can look
like and how to go about doing

(58:05):
that with your community. So,
um, it's a book
that is really rich in lived
experience and theological insight, but
it is also kind of a practical workbook for
being able to navigate some challenging times.
So, um, I

(58:26):
think that will be encouraging to people who are feeling those
pressure points right now.

Thanks, Martha. That's great to hear. Yeah.
My take is very much that it's intended
to be as much a workbook, um,
as, um, uh, a book that sort of
encourages people and welcomes people to think about. About
some of the challenges. Um, because the
hope is that, um, you
can take this into a place like a

(58:54):
congregation and actually sit down with people
and help them to begin to think about what the gospel
really means for their lives and what it really means
for their communities there, the people
with whom they're working and the places and people
whom they're trying to reach, um,
so that they can themselves, um, have A sense

(59:14):
that they're understanding God's transformational
work, uh, in their lives and that
they're really engaging with the
challenges.

Yeah, we are both people who,
uh, have the privilege of talking to a lot of
people across the Christian church.
And there are a lot of
places of grief in
letting go of, um, a
particular way of being church. There can

(59:47):
be a sense of exhaustion,
of um, of
despair, a failure.
Where do you. Where do you experience
God though? Like, where do you. Where are you
seeing. Experiencing the um, the energy,
the vitality, the hopefulness of

(01:00:09):
God as you're putting this book out
there, as you're naming these realities, as you're
engaging with real people doing this
real thing, like where is the
energy and vitality of God showing up in a shrinking
church?

>> Reverend Dr. William Harrison (01:00:26):
So I'm going to tell you, actually, I had the experience just a
couple of days ago. So I was chatting
with. With a, uh, group in a
congregation. I was invited to chat
with the Congregational Council,
um, about some of the stuff in my book.
And I was given a very short period of time,

(01:00:46):
um, that I was going to be
able to do. And they had some planning to do.
So I figured, okay,
we'll build primarily on planning principles and we won't spend
a lot of time with the transformation stuff.
Um, you know, I'll name it and go right by it.
Um, in fact, what happened was,

(01:01:08):
you know, I, I had 30 minutes. We got to
the end of the 30 minutes and uh. And. And
people wanted to. To kind of pursue some questions.
Um, well, by the time we called it a day,
um, we had put in over an hour and 10 minutes
and. And they just weren't actually going
to settle for some basic planning principles.

(01:01:29):
They wanted to get right into this stuff about
transformation. They wanted to get
right into the issues about what God was
about. And I could feel, you know,
as. As I was facing the questions,
I could feel, you know, there's. There's a little bit of. Kind of frustration in
the room. People have. There's some issues here that. That just
aren't getting named. And it was when we actually got

(01:01:52):
deep into the transformation stuff and people began to
talk about how this was affecting their lives and
how they could actually, you know, begin to commun.
And some of those sorts of pieces that actually the. The
feeling of. Of. Of um, you
know, issues there that. That went away
and there was just this sense of. Of excitement.

(01:02:12):
And now, you know, is. Is that,
um, you know,
did we change the world? No, we probably didn't. But on the
other hand, um. There, there
was some definite engagement with what God is doing,
and that is the kind of thing that
resonates. What I'm really noticing, just

(01:02:33):
even inside the church that constitutes
a kind of hope and excitement,
is the extent to which people are actually prepared to
engage with the Gospel in complex
and even, um, demanding sorts of
ways. Um, the other thing that I'm going to say
is that when I chat with people who aren't

(01:02:55):
Christians, they're actually much more
interested in talking about what
contribution Christianity might make to,
uh, world transformation, um,
than, you know, than they might have been once upon
a time. I know that when I grew up, there was a sort of, you were
either Christian or you weren't.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:15):
And it was all, yeah, a bit of hostility.

Yeah, I think. Yeah. And
I don't see the same thing. Um, it's
not going to feed our numbers, um,
but it's setting us up
for a conversation about
transformation. And
I think that, at least in part, some of the things that are

(01:03:40):
going on politically, some of the things that are going on,
um, in just sort of the organization of the
Anglosphere these days, are actually pushing people
to ask deeper questions
about what religion might mean and perhaps what
Christianity might mean.

I think that's an amazing note to,
uh, take a break on because,
again, I really relate to that description.
I see those sorts of things as well, that
curiosity, that engagement,
um, that commitment
to really, uh,

(01:04:18):
attend to what God is doing, um,
inside our churches and in interesting
ways outside of our churches. So,
yeah, thank you, Phil, for,
um, helping
us probe your offering here.
And, uh, again, I just want to make sure before we
take our break that people know that the name of the book is

(01:04:40):
Leadership in a Shrinking Church and
that they should check it out. We'll take a quick
break and we'll be back with some, um, closing questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am here with the Reverend Dr. Bill
Harrison and we are going to get into our
closing questions. So, Bill, we always

(01:05:03):
tell our guests that you are free to
take these questions seriously or not.
Um, but, ah, if you were
Pope for a day, how
would you fill out those 24 hours?

Okay. Um, the challenge, of course, with
being Pope for a day is that, uh, is that you'd
hope that you can make some changes that would last.
So I would definitely pick up the
synodality conversation, uh, that they're
having, ah, about,
um, the ways in which people communicate.
Um, but it would also be pushing for some pretty

(01:05:41):
radical changes around things like the ordination of women and
welcoming people of different gender. And sexual identities.
How much that would last beyond the 24 hours
is its own question.

Yeah, maybe, um, being Pope for the day,
it should be like the, huh, genie
in the bottle. Your first wish is for a million more
wishes, like your first day as Pope. You could
make yourself Pope for
the rest of time or something.

Something like that.

Yeah. So you can get
that lasting change done. Or as you said,
just work with the, the, the city of it. That's
another method. Um, is there a
theologian or historical Christian figure who you
would want to meet, bring back to life, have
supper with?

It would absolutely be Bernard Lonergan, uh, who's
at the root of, of a lot of that transformation piece. Ah,
that, that we've talked about in, in relation to my book.
Um, and uh. And I mean, part of
the fun stuff, of course, is that he really did,
uh, come from Canada, uh, born in,
in the Ottawa Valley and, and spent time

(01:06:50):
in Toronto and, and in Guelph. Um,
and uh, he also spent some time in Boston where I did my
PhD. So, so we actually have a lot of
places in common. And in fact, we actually
have people in common because people like my, my doctoral
director actually sort of knew him.
And so, so we have places and people in common. And
I would really like to be able to, to kind of

(01:07:13):
pick his brain and, and work deeply into
how some of that transformation stuff can play in a
contemporary world. That would probably actually play
back into being Pope for a day, because I think it would be interesting
navigating the Roman Catholic context with some
advice and direction from Bernard Lonergan today.

Yeah. Okay, so you can just wrap those
two questions into one. You Pope for the day
and have Lonergan at your side.

That would be ideal.

Okay.
What will history remember from our current time and
place?

Um, I think the biggest
piece that history is going to remember is in fact
irrationality. Um, we're
in a time in history where irrationality, as
in a certain kind of opposition
to thinking deeply and in
complex ways about the future, um,
is not, not really in vogue.

(01:08:10):
Um, I think that I lean a
lot on the conversation about intellectual transformation right
at the moment because it's that. That one I think
distinguishes, um, where a Christian sits
in the contemporary conversations.
Um, so, yeah, so
I think irrationality is, is going to be
going to be the big thing. I hope that we're

(01:08:32):
also going to be able to see, um, some
conversation about transformation that will come out of it.
But right at the moment, irrationality
seems to be the leader.

Yeah, that's a very insightful answer.
Um, the last question
I feel like we've sort of been talking about
throughout our entire conversation, but
what are your hopes for the future of Christianity?

Um, yeah, this really is just kind of
wrapping up basically what we've been saying. What I would hope for is
deeper transformation for all of us. Us
and uh, deeper transformation for the world. It
would be deeper intellectual, psychic,
moral and religious transformation. I
would love us to be, um, more deeply

(01:09:17):
in love with God and the world
and seeking a deeper understanding of it.
Seeking a deeper understanding of ourselves, both the way
our intellects work and the way our psyches work,
uh, and seeking to understand the. The world so
that we can participate in God's transformative, uh,
work in it. So it would definitely be about

(01:09:39):
deeper transformation.

Well, that is a lovely
answer and it's on brand, so
I'm glad that you didn't throw us
a major curveball there at the end.
Um, where can people find out more about you? Bell?

Um, probably the easiest place is to find me
on Facebook, um, just Bill Harrison.
Or you can find me at Lutheran, uh,
Theological Seminary. Um,
uh, because those are the places where
um, the information is most up to date.

And how can people get a hold of this book?

Um, it's available through most major,
certainly most major online, uh, retailers,
Indigo, Amazon, um,
various other, uh, online
retailers. And uh, you can certainly order
it through your local Indigo. Um,
uh, if there's one of those handy to you.

Great. Well, thank you so much for your
time today, Bill. Thank you for the book.
Thank you for your insights for our
future Christian community. We always end with a word
of peace, so may God's peace be with you, Bill Paul.

Thank you, Martha. And may God's peace also be with
you and, and with the, uh, the community. Thank you,
thank you Martha for taking time with me
and, and thank you to those of you who, who
watch the. The podcast. I appreciate you
paying attention to the, the. The pieces that we.

>> Loren Richmond (01:11:20):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website at, uh, future-christian.com
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.

(01:11:41):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. Review. It really helps us get
this out to more people.

Thanks.

>> Loren Richmond (01:11:48):
And go in peace.

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