August 12, 2025 • 53 mins
What does it take to start a brand-new church in one of the fastest-growing cities in the U.S.? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Drew Crowson, an Episcopal priest in the Diocese of Dallas planting a church in Celina, Texas—a city where 800 new residents arrive every month and there’s never been an Episcopal congregation. Drew shares his journey from growing up Baptist in East Texas, to ministry roles in Germany, the Middle East, and Alabama, to finding a spiritual home in the Anglican tradition. He explains why he believes the parish model is the future of the church, how a preschool can be a vital ministry and funding source, and the discipline it takes to keep showing up—even when no one else does. Whether you’re in church leadership, thinking about starting something new, or just curious about what it takes to plant a church in today’s cultural climate, this conversation is both honest and inspiring.
They discuss:
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Why liturgy and the Book of Common Prayer resonate with non-liturgical Christians
-
How to plant a church in a mainline denomination with little recent church-planting history
-
Balancing entrepreneurial hustle with slow, patient spiritual formation
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The importance of pastoral boundaries for family health
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Building a prayer team and cultivating resilience in ministry
Drew Crowson is a church planter in the Episcopal Diocese of Dallas. Before stepping into church planting, he served in young adult and youth ministry in diverse contexts—from Dallas to Düsseldorf, Germany, an oil compound in the Middle East, and Auburn, Alabama. Deeply shaped by the early 2000s emergent church movement, his journey ultimately led him deeper into Jesus and into the Anglican tradition. Drew is married to an incredible woman, and together they are raising three young children who daily remind them of their ongoing need for grace.
Mentioned Resources:
📱 Celina instagram: @adventcelina
🌐 Drew's Substack: https://substack.com/@andrewcrowson
🌐 WashPark UMC: https://www.washparkumc.org
Other Church planting episodes:
🎧 Cameron Trimble: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-8siub-10d0a4d
🎧 Paula Stone Williams: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-pgxda-f59f19
🎧 Tim Morey: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-25zwi-1059d6d
🎧 Nick Warnes: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-ketw5-1172f9e
🎧 Jonah Overton: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-y28bz-13457f4
🎧 Even More: https://www.podbean.com/ep/pb-wzbs7-173f5fc
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
with the Reverend Nandra Kraussen.
Father Drew is just getting started as a
church planter here in the Episcopal Diocese of
Dallas. His experience before this
was in young adult and youth ministry
in locations from Dallas to
(01:06):
Dusseldorf, Germany, an oil compound
in the Middle east, and Auburn, Alabama.
He was deeply formed by the early Aughts
emergent church movement, but pushed
deeper into Jesus through the journey and was
led into the Anglican tradition. He is
married to an incredible woman, and together they have three
little kids who daily remind them of their
(01:28):
incomplete sanctification. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with
a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha,
and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
us an email@, uh,
laurensonatemediapro.com
(01:51):
with comments, questions, or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the
future of the church.
>> Loren (02:09):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined today by Drew
Croson. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
>> Speaker D (02:19):
Of course. Thank you for pronouncing my name correctly.
>> Loren (02:22):
Yeah, I just realized, like, I did not ask you about that, and that was a
total guess, so I'm glad.
>> Speaker D (02:25):
I got it right.
>> Loren (02:27):
Yeah. Uh, anything else you want
listeners to know about you?
>> Speaker D (02:31):
Yeah, I'm. I'm an Episcopal priest in the
Diocese of Dallas planting a church, which is
kind of a crazy. A crazy endeavor. I'm learning
more and more how crazy it is every week. But, yeah,
I am, uh, if you know anybody in Salina,
Texas, I am happy to get coffee with whoever and
whomever you know.
>> Loren (02:51):
Yeah, love the hustle there. Uh, share, if you would,
kind of about your faith background and journey, what that looks like.
Ah, past and what it looks like today.
>> Speaker D (02:58):
Yeah, so I grew up in the piney
woods of East Texas. I
grew up Baptist. As many people in that area of the world
do and felt
called um, to seminary
through working at a camp that I was working at. And then like
kind of the grief and trauma of losing my dad at
(03:19):
21 kind of led me through that. I went to college to be
a sports talk radio host initially. So then
the call to be go into ministry
was kind of drastic for me. I went
to seminary initially at Denver Seminary. It's my
first, okay, first master's degree, uh, from
Denver Seminary. I uh, graduated
(03:39):
from there with a degree in Christian Spiritual formation.
That degree, the teachings of Dallas
Willard, um, a lot of the readings
that I did there began opening my
mind and my
ideas of the faith to other
streams of the Christian faith, including
(03:59):
Anglicanism. Um, I remember getting a copy of
a Book of Common Prayer from a professor and being
kind of astounded at the depth of it
and the fact and kind of the disappointment that I didn't know that this
existed. And I'd been a Christian Right. My whole life.
>> Loren (04:13):
Right.
>> Speaker D (04:14):
And morning and evening prayer became
an important thing for me still are.
I was a missionary overseas. I worked for young
life for a tiny bit. I worked for
youth for Christ, which is a lot like young life.
I worked with English speaking kids
and their parents, like what they call third culture kids.
(04:36):
I think yesterday was International third culture Kid Day.
So I worked with uh, those kinds of kids. Kids whose
moms and dads live outside of their own passport
country and have taken them in. So these
are kids who have a very unique experience and a
unique outlook on life. Um, I got
married, I have three kids. We live now
(04:56):
in North Texas in
what is the fastest growing city in the country
or one of them, Salina. And that's where
we're trying to put a church. I became
Episcopalian along the way.
>> Loren (05:09):
That was, yeah, along the way somewhere.
>> Speaker D (05:10):
Yada yada yada.
>> Loren (05:12):
Well, so much interesting stuff to dive into,
share if you would. Just anything you want. I mean, you
mentioned the Book of Common Prayers. Maybe
let's talk through that. Like how again, I grew up
Baptist and I think even to me, like the Book of Common Prayers is still kind
of a mystery to me. But it seems like
in these non liturgical settings,
(05:33):
contexts, traditions folks are
finding.
>> Speaker D (05:36):
More.
>> Loren (05:38):
Appetite for these liturgical practices. What
do you think it is about like the Book of Common Prayers that really resonates with,
with you and with others, you think?
>> Speaker D (05:46):
Uh, for me it was growing up
Baptist and then living overseas,
um, and interacting with churches kind of all over
the world.
>> Loren (05:56):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (05:57):
Um, there was this disparity in
quality of liturgy. In the churches.
Just like, I mean, every church has a liturgy, so the
goings on of the church service, there was a
disparity in the quality and how they were doing it. And it was all hit or
miss. And you walk into a service and then it always kind of came down
to the pastor, like, how good is this sermon going
(06:17):
to be? Because that's really all we're going to judge this on.
And even when I was in seminary, I knew
the people that I was in seminary with, and I liked those people. But
I also thought, like, I really don't know if
this is who we should be trusting the future of evangelicalism to.
Um, and
the, what they call the anonymity of
(06:39):
the caller initially is what
was what drew me in further, the fact that when I was
overseas and would walk into a Church of England parish or
a Anglican parish, wherever in the world,
um, Middle East, North Africa,
um, England, Germany,
it was kind of. There was this similarity.
(07:00):
There was a rhythm. Uh, you could, you could find
yourself in the part of the service, you knew where
you were, and I
really loved that. And the idea that, like, okay, the pastor, the
priest could leave because they died or got old
or whatever, and the church is not
gonna go away. And no one even asked that
(07:20):
question. Yeah, it's just, who's the next priest gonna
be? Um, to me, that was such a.
A change and a refreshing change. It wasn't this,
like, a new priest coming into this church
or leaving the church wasn't this
foundational problem, um, with the parish.
But instead, it was just another thing that happened, breathing, uh,
(07:41):
in and breathing out. I, I really.
That struck me. And
then, like, we. I think, you know, I've written about this
extensively, but, like, my experience through the emerging
church movement led me deeper into
exploring how Christianity has been done
for a longer period of time and trying to be, like, true to the
(08:04):
historic faith. But also, you know, back then, early
2000s, it was all about being authentic,
being authentic and finding some real expression.
Um, and Anglicanism
fit that well for me,
without completely dismantling
faith and losing sight of Jesus.
>> Loren (08:25):
Yeah, yeah, this is good stuff.
You know, it's funny, you mentioned, like, the leadership transition.
Like, you know, I imagine similar.
You similar. Like, I listen to a lot of, like,
evangelical kind of church revitalization,
you know. Carrie Newhoff Ranger
like, leadership transition is such an
obsession, and for good reason. Like, you've got to get
(08:47):
the next good leader in there, or else, like,
the next pastor can really tank your church. Like, I've seen it
happen. Even in my own, even in
where I live, in churches around here. But like you said, like, when it's
not about like just the pastor, like,
wow, does that make a difference?
>> Speaker D (09:04):
No, it's true. And uh, like, you know, it's a
bit of a generalization. Like it does.
>> Loren (09:08):
Right. Obviously it matters.
>> Speaker D (09:10):
Yeah.
>> Loren (09:11):
Like, obviously it matters. Like you get the wrong leader and they're, and they're just
like terrible. Like that makes a difference. But I think the
broader point you're trying to make is like, it's not just
dependent solely upon like the quality or
personality or charisma of the leader.
>> Speaker D (09:24):
Right. And it's something that we lost
as Christianity has evolved into a
less denominational alignment.
>> Loren (09:32):
Right, right.
>> Speaker D (09:33):
We, we are kind of losing that.
>> Loren (09:35):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (09:35):
Um, people, when they move to town
are just going to whatever church.
>> Loren (09:40):
Yep.
>> Speaker D (09:41):
Is the best quality or they're not going church at all.
As opposed to being like, I'm an Episcopalian, so I'm going to find the closest
Episcopal church, which I think nobody is doing that
anymore.
>> Loren (09:51):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm a great example.
Like, I, uh, don't know if I
guess I've admitted this in public. I am ordained Disciples
of Christ and I attend a United Methodist church because I feel like
it's the best for my family.
>> Speaker D (10:04):
Right.
>> Loren (10:05):
And it is what it is,
so.
Well, we're already getting into some interesting conversation and
I don't want to take time away from what I want to talk about here.
And that's, I think the biggest, most exciting thing to me is
I'm, um, someone who's started a church in the
mainline world and I'm very much interested in the future of
the mainline Protestant context.
(10:27):
So you're starting a church and I think the biggest question
is why start a church?
What kind of compelled you? I think conversely,
the question could be asked, and I'm sure you've been asked this,
why did you think about a new church rather than
revitalization of an existing
church? Uh, what about the community that you're in that you
want to start in? So it's a lot there, but feel free to run.
>> Speaker D (10:50):
Yeah. So there's I, there's two answers to why
it's important to plant the church in Salina,
Texas. And one is kind of the, the
more nuts and bolts
reasoning and the other is the more like grace filled
gospel, uh, reasoning.
Um, the first is that
800 people a month move to this town. It's the
(11:12):
fastest, like I said, it's the fastest growing city in the United States.
It is, it is rapidly
expanding. And it started out very small. So
just a few years ago, uh,
2018 or so, there were less than
50,000, less than 20,000 people in town.
And now we're well into the
(11:34):
70,000 people in town range,
um, last I read. But
that number is going to continue to grow at the Internet. The
independent. The school district is
going to triple in size in the next 10 years. So
people are moving to town with families. There has
never been an Episcopal church in this town.
(11:54):
There's never been a Roman Catholic church in this town. This
is Baptist country, um, through and
through. And so there is no church for me to
revitalize in Salina. There's never been
one. And so the, ah, there is a,
the nuts and bolts reasoning would be because there needs to be
an Episcopal church in a town this size. It,
(12:15):
it behooves us as a denomination to
be here, um, as people move in
and as young families come and
potential members move, um, to town.
The other reason is, you know, God is
bringing people into this area and I'm already
here and it's much cheaper to send me here than it would be to send me anywhere
(12:36):
else. I already live here. So putting a church
up to share the gospel with folks, to
tell people their sins are forgiven as they move to town
is what we are called to do as
ordained ministers. So planting a church
in Salina is an outgrowth of the
gospel. And as God is moving in our
diocese were continuing to go up. The two
(12:58):
most recent successful church plants, or the three
most recent successful church plants in
our diocese have come since the year
2000.
>> Loren (13:08):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (13:08):
And all three are kind of moving up
north, you know, From Dallas
to McKinney and Frisco to prosper and
now us in Salina. So we're,
we just keep on going north.
>> Loren (13:21):
Interesting.
So how we got connected is I wrote a
substack about kind of this idea.
What I was, uh, thinking was the future of the church, of
this parish model or community hub model.
And I think you found it and were like, hey, this is what I'm trying to do
in Texas. And I was like, dude, that's awesome.
So I guess talk more about how
(13:43):
your kind of model for church planning is going to look like
and what your vision behind that is.
>> Speaker D (13:48):
Yeah. So I am
firm believer that the parish model is
the thing that's going to outlast everything else. It's going to, I think it's
going to outlast the attractional church. It's going to
outlast A lot of these other things. Yeah, because
it takes really seriously the idea of
loving our neighbors as ourselves, including our next door
neighbors. So loving the people who share a fence with me.
(14:11):
Um, like I love myself. And I think a parish
model that, like the old
parish in England or the
UK where the priest of the
village saw the entire parish as his parish
whether they attend their church or not.
>> Loren (14:29):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (14:29):
I think is the model. So for me that involves
me finding ways to be intimately involved with this
community. Whether it's going to city council meetings,
attending arts council dialogues,
hanging out at the downtown local coffee shop in a collar
to just talk to regular people who don't go to my church.
Because I view every single citizen of Salina
(14:50):
as my parishioner, whether I ever
administer communion to them or not.
Yeah, that's what the city needs
is a uh, is a church that's for the city as opposed to a
church that's trying to get things or benefit from being
in Salina. We need a church where Salina
benefits because I'm there and the parish
(15:11):
model provides that. It also
provides in a city like Salina, that's suburb.
It's growing quickly. It's never had a
robust or vibrant cultural uh,
hub, uh, because it's never had that many people.
Providing a place where artists, visual artists,
musicians and all that can meet and gather and
(15:31):
share ideas, um, in a safe and
welcoming environment I think is important and, and
benefits the city as well. Like being a cultural hub that
hosts concerts and, and is
able to give something back to the
town. We also part of the parish model
for me involves a school.
(15:51):
Um, forever Anglican
churches have had schools and been part of education. So
up here the public schools are amazing.
We're not trying to compete with public schools.
We're going to provide childcare
preschools from from 2 years
old up to 4. Uh, that's where we're going
(16:11):
to find parents and families that need somebody
to watch their kids, provide
Christian education and get their kids prepared to go to
the great public schools. And again
a value add. Seeing those people whose kids go to my
preschool as my parishioner, whether they attend
a Sunday service or not is part of my role as a
(16:31):
parish priest.
>> Loren (16:33):
Yeah, I think that's so great. And this
is something like a bigger project I'm um, working on. I really think
childcare, like it's not a silver bullet obviously
and obviously context and space and all
that matters. But like I've
seen it done very well. Like shout out
to Sandy Dillon,
(16:54):
former colleague and pastor of Mine at Wash Park,
UMC was so good
at connecting with these families. Families
at the church preschool. And what would
inevitably happen was these families would
get connected with the church and be like, or excuse me, with the
preschool and then be like, oh, I guess we want to go to
(17:15):
church. And well, we know this pastor, we know this
church. And boom, bang, boom. And again,
I'm sure like Drew, you're not doing this just because like, hey, we want
this to be a pure like on ramp. But it
inevitably becomes that like, I don't.
>> Speaker D (17:30):
No, there's a great way. There's an, there's absolutely.
I mean it's an on ramp to getting people into the door,
to realizing that Episcopalianism is weird. I mean in a place
where there's no Episcopal church.
>> Loren (17:41):
Right.
>> Speaker D (17:42):
It, it is a benefit to have something where
you are, you know.
>> Loren (17:46):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (17:46):
Potential new member facing side door. Right.
>> Loren (17:49):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Speaker D (17:50):
And, and then the, you know, uh, the church I work at in
Prosper has a preschool
and it is, it has been a massive outreach tool for
us. So many people who don't have a church
home, whose kids love our school.
>> Loren (18:04):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (18:05):
End up coming to our services. And that's a lot of Easter
service people. I don't know if we're anywhere going
Easter. My kid loves this school. I'm going to go to his school
on Easter. And you know, it's, it's
a no brainer for us. We can show people that we love your kids,
we love your family, we're not a weirdo.
Um, come on, come and hear the good news.
>> Loren (18:26):
Okay, let's talk this then, like, and
let's try to tread lightly, I suppose.
>> Speaker D (18:32):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:34):
Navigating the mainline culture as a
new church starter, especially someone from,
not a, uh, lifelong
mainliner, not lifelong Episcopalian.
This was a challenge that I feel like I had to
navigate sometimes more
successfully than other times. But you know,
in a judicatory that
(18:57):
like the Episcopalians, like other
mainline Protestant denominations, like they've done things
one way or another for a long time and church
planting in many mainline Protestant groups has not
been, uh, a priority the last 20, 30 years. Like
talk through that. What does that look like for you?
>> Speaker D (19:15):
No, it's interesting. And like, and like you mentioned, like.
Yeah, just coming from outside of this denomination,
coming from a place where like church planting was very much normal
and you kind of people just kind of had a
language and a vocabulary for is,
is very interesting how much
I'm learning that people don't know,
(19:36):
um, within the, within this tribe
and why Would they? Like, we planted a ton of
churches a hundred years ago and they're, and they're doing really
well, but no one remembers when they were
planted.
>> Loren (19:48):
Right.
>> Speaker D (19:49):
They got beautiful buildings, they've got an endowment, they're doing
great. And we don't remember who started
it or when that happened.
>> Loren (19:56):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (19:57):
And so for a lot of people,
the idea of just like putting out a sign that says the Episcopal
Church welcomes you in front of a brand new building,
that's how you plant a church.
>> Loren (20:08):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:09):
But like, no one's gonna come.
Like, I, I think that's
the, that's the bit that is difficult to describe. Like if I
just.
>> Loren (20:18):
Oh, uh, we just go. It's so hard for some people to
grasp.
>> Speaker D (20:22):
Like if I just go buy some building
and put a sign out front and say, hey, we're having an Episcopal Church service
on Sunday. It's gonna be me and my wife and kids,
like, yeah.
>> Loren (20:31):
Ah.
>> Speaker D (20:32):
But the hard work of
meeting people or of taking or of or
of or of asking people at other churches
who live in my town, hey, would you be willing,
are you feeling called to help me come and start this in. In
our town?
>> Loren (20:48):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (20:48):
That's been a difficult kind of sell for some
people. And you're kind of, um. I'm watching people as they're
bristling because they're, their conceptions of what this looks like
are being challenged.
>> Loren (20:58):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:59):
But I'm having to kind of say, look, um, I'm not stealing
from people. This is, this is
our ecclesial model. Like.
>> Loren (21:07):
Right.
>> Speaker D (21:08):
We try to put churches close to where people live so you don't
have to drive past six Episcopal churches to go to the
one you like. So that's
what we're trying to do. So I'm, I am hoping
to educate, but also at the same time be educated
because I don't know a lot. And I, and I
have been running, running into the bumpers on the, on the
(21:28):
bowling lane, on how to, how to get
down there, how to figure out how to
navigate this culture that I've, I'm still somewhat
new to.
>> Loren (21:37):
Yeah. How, how long have you been in the Episcopal world again?
>> Speaker D (21:40):
Yeah, so I've been working in the episcopal world
since 2020. I've been
a, uh, confirmed Episcopalian since 21,
and I've been ordained
since 23, but I have a degree in
Anglican studies that I got somewhere there too,
and from Wycliffe in Toronto. And so
(22:02):
I now know a lot more than I did. But I'm still learning a
Ton more.
>> Loren (22:06):
Does this. Is this, like, a thing in Episcopal world where people will
be like, oh, I'm first generation, or I'm third generation
or fifth generation or fourth generation. Yeah,
Episcopal. And, uh, let me say this.
I won't say this for you, Drew. You can just,
you know, you can, uh, you can, uh, agree or not disagree.
That's up to you. Like, I'm going to say this to mainliners. I've said this
(22:27):
before. Like, don't ever say in
your church what generation mainliner you
are. It's just, like, the giant, biggest turnoff.
Anybody who's not a part of your tradition
ever, and I'm sorry to be harsh, but, like, just
don't do it ever.
>> Speaker D (22:44):
It's an interesting thing people do, and
it's. It kind of mirrors, like, up here,
since we're growing so quickly, we're
changing, the city is changing so rapidly. And
so you see a lot of people do the same thing about you. Uh, know, I've
been in Salina since 91. My granddad's
from here, and I have, like, the local bumper stickers and stuff. And so
(23:04):
you're just trying to, like, gatekeep or
other. Anybody you possibly can in order to make yourself
feel better.
>> Loren (23:11):
Colorado does it. Because Colorado has been a big thing with,
like, native. And it's like, hoof. I. I
don't want to spend.
>> Speaker D (23:18):
There's specialized license plates. If you're, like, a descendant of
the pioneer something.
>> Loren (23:22):
It's. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it is
ridiculous. Um, it's like, hey,
obviously, we could end. We could leave this point in this. Like, we
know many, uh, people who have those
pioneer license plates were not the first people in
this part of the world. Right. We know there's
indigenous people who were there before
us. Uh, so at least we could say that.
>> Speaker D (23:44):
But no, it's interesting you bring this up because, like, I am,
um. I'm running into two different cultures.
So I am. I am fighting a culture. Not fighting.
I'm learning and butting up against a culture that doesn't have much,
uh, exposure to church planting. And then I'm doing the
same thing with a culture that's zero exposure to the
main line. So.
(24:06):
So I am, in one hand explaining what a church plant is to a group of
people, and on the other hand, explaining what it is to be
Anglican or Episcopalian to the other group of
people. Um, and both are difficult,
but both have, you know, a little bit of nuance and
fun, because the people that I'm explaining church plant to
up here, they know. They understand that there's other
(24:26):
church plants going in. And Salina. Right. You know.
>> Loren (24:29):
Right.
>> Speaker D (24:29):
They. The church they go to used to be a church plant,
but, like, they don't know what I'm doing or what an
Episcopal priest is. Um, and our church in
Prosper has so few what we call
cradle Episcopalians. It's.
We don't have really the. I've been Episcopalian for three
generations at our church. Just because nobody
up here, like, everybody comes to our church comes from some
(24:51):
other stream. That's just
the nature of it up here.
>> Loren (24:57):
Let me ask this. When I was doing, like, you know,
uh, farmers markets and, you know, any kind of tabling,
I could get to meet people, they always want to know, like, are you Christian or
Catholic? And it was easy for me. I could just be
like, oh, I'm Christian. Like, literally,
that's in. In my denomination's name.
>> Speaker D (25:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:14):
I didn't necessarily go and spill the whole, like,
denominational full name and. And stuff. But
I also don't want to overwhelm people. Like, how do you. How do you handle that?
Because what's. Like, what are the. What do people, like, want to know when
you're like, oh, you're leading a new church? Tell me about that.
>> Speaker D (25:28):
Yeah, there's a couple of. Of interesting questions I get,
and I kind of expect them and can kind of
understand what they really mean by how they ask
them.
>> Loren (25:37):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (25:37):
Um, but, you know, I get asked a lot
about the new pope, which is great.
Okay. Like, I've gotten. I'll be out and about
in my collar, and somebody will say, what do you think about the new Pope?
And I'll. And I'll be like, well, he's not mine.
Yeah, but I think he's probably great. And. And then that
leads into another conversation of, like, what do you mean he's not your
Pope? We don't have a Pope. There was a
(26:00):
whole thing about it, um, in the
1500s, and
we. I can kind of explain it, but that. Then people will say,
what is Episcopalianism? Um, is it just Catholic light?
Is it just, um. What does it mean?
Are you Protestant and. Yes, I'm Protestant. I'm as Protestant as
you guys are at your Baptist church, if not more
so. And, you know,
(26:23):
people will ask a lot of those kinds of questions.
What kind of church are, uh, you. What does your church believe?
Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe in Jesus?
Those are the questions people will ask. And all those I'm happy to.
Happy to answer. And happy to have good conversations
with, um, somebody. I had a
girl at a coffee shop last week, two weeks ago, ask
(26:44):
me, is your church all about
trying to get people to be better people and do good stuff?
And I was like, oh, absolutely not.
Mhm. I was like, our church is a hundred percent not about that.
And she like kind of took a step back. She's like, we need more people to be
good people. We absolutely do. But we are under no
illusion that trying to be good people is
(27:04):
in any way beneficiary to people.
In fact, we. I want to tell you about Jesus and
it was wonderful. Um, she was like, oh,
okay, this sounds really cool. So I like wrote her name down. It's
really great. And
people just. When you have a collar on at the
coffee shop.
>> Loren (27:22):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (27:23):
And then you have a regular. Yeah. You have get some stairs. And
then you get people who just approach you and talk.
And then when you want to have a small talk conversation with
them, it really takes them aback because they're like, wait a minute.
Uh, I thought we were going to talk about Jesus. Yeah, you want
to talk about the cowboys. So,
uh, yeah, it's really great. It's
a really great evangelistic tool that I, I mean, I. But doing Young
(27:46):
life, I. This doesn't feel unnatural to
me. Is going out and chatting.
>> Loren (27:51):
Sure. Um, gosh, what was I going to ask
you something about that?
Anyway, let's, let's move on to
funding because don't, uh, feel like you need to
give direct specifics on money
and whatever. But like, I know. Oh, I
was going to give a shout to my Anglican co host, Martha Tatarnic, who's working
on a book on Anne Boleyn, who had something,
(28:13):
something to do with all this. Why you're not casting,
why we don't have a book.
>> Speaker D (28:17):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:17):
Right. Um, so shout out to Martha.
Let's talk funding and the challenges just of kind
of paying for it. So you don't need to give. Feel
free to share what you're comfortable feeling. Sharing. But
like, what is, how is this going to work?
>> Speaker D (28:33):
I'm. I am overwhelmed
with how blessed I am with the
support the Diocese of Dallas is giving me.
Um, overwhelmed and also kind of like challenged by it. Like
it really is kind of a. Hey, look, you got a lot of people behind
you on this deal. Don't mess it up.
Um, but the Diocese of Dallas is helping
(28:54):
by acquiring land,
um, so that a piece of property will eventually
be purchased that hopefully
the church will be put on, which is a huge.
I mean, that's a huge piece up here. The land is
kind of growing. I see. I keep saying up here
everything in Salina is considered up because of the
(29:14):
geographic gravity of Dallas. So we're all just okay.
>> Loren (29:18):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (29:18):
Uh, we
are having property purchased for us which I
know as a church planter is like
incredible.
>> Loren (29:28):
Yeah, it's a big deal.
>> Speaker D (29:29):
It's a big deal. The funding for the building
eventually will hopefully come from the school.
So that's part of the reason for starting a preschool is that it's a, it is
a profit maker.
>> Loren (29:40):
Right.
>> Speaker D (29:41):
To help fund a church plant that is
not uh, going to be able to afford a building on its own for most
likely a very long time.
>> Loren (29:50):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (29:51):
And so funding for that will come from the school, will
hopefully come from um, a capital campaign
from the core team that I'm assembling. Some of
that will go in there as well, maybe some from the diocese as well.
We're still working on grants and things like that to hopefully
get money to help build the school that then the school
can help pay for
(30:12):
the building that the church can meet in. That's kind of
the financial structure I've got worked out right now.
It allows for me to still keep a very,
very bare bones church budget
while meeting in a building that I can't afford.
Before that takes place though, we're meet, we're going to meet, you know, like
everybody else does school or in a, you know,
(30:34):
cafe, whatever, whoever, wherever I can rent space.
>> Loren (30:37):
Right, right. Uh, was
who, who came up with this idea of like the preschool because uh,
like several years ago, or I guess it wasn't several, but a few
years ago like there was actually in my neck of the woods like an
Episcopal church that was being sold and I looked
at it with a real estate agent, was like oh my goodness, like this would be a great
property to do like a, do childcare in. It had
(30:57):
a big chunk of undeveloped land. We could build some affordable
housing. But like when I talked to a few people they looked at me like
outsideways like
uh, how have you, what's been the reception of saying like hey, we want
to do this preschool to help fund our, our ministry
going forward?
>> Speaker D (31:12):
Well I think for us it's been,
we have a, we have a case study
that's St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper.
So St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper was planted.
Uh, they had their first service in a school,
I want to say in 2008, but they didn't build
a building until 2016. But the building
(31:33):
was built and a preschool was
opened like simultaneously. So,
and then looking at the numbers, the preschool is,
is carrying all of the capital costs.
>> Loren (31:46):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (31:46):
Of the building. And so I can point
at that and go, hey, look, that works. Right?
And it works enough that banks are okay with
loaning towards it.
>> Loren (31:57):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (31:57):
Um, because there is a guarantee and there's so many. The
average person moving to my town is in their 30s
and has at least one kid. So it's, it
is, uh, it's a necessary thing
up here. We don't have enough preschools. So it makes a
lot of sense that we can move into the market in that way.
>> Loren (32:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's talk, let's uh, switch gears a little bit to talking about
metrics. This is obviously like an important thing
when it comes to new church. You know,
depending on who you're working with and
depending on what context you're working in, people are going to want to know, like, how many
people, what are your offerings. That being
said, like those kind of questions of like how much money you're bringing
(32:36):
in is again, like the challenge of a new church
because especially if we're getting folks who are unchurched or
new to the faith, like they're not necessarily discipled into giving
a huge amount every week. And
you know, becoming self sustaining after
two, three years is going to be really challenging.
So do you have like a,
(32:57):
like I used to have in my context, like some, like
I'd want to have one or two new
visitors like every week. Um, so, you know,
having regular volunteers, like what are some,
I used to always, always say, like, I'm going to try to have,
talk to 10 people outside the church about my
new church. Do you have some metrics that you've thought about that
(33:18):
uh, you want to try to aim for and also
thought about maybe what you're going to try to
not emphasize. Does that make sense?
>> Speaker D (33:26):
Yeah, I'm hoping, I mean, we're still so
new on this thing that I, I, we
haven't met as a core team much.
Sure. And uh, part of that's by design, part of that.
I'm trying to take it a slow, a slow growth
model.
>> Loren (33:41):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (33:42):
Um, so I'm trying to, I
think your metrics are pretty dead on what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to talk to three
people a week about the church.
Trying to add three people a month
to the core team.
>> Loren (33:55):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (33:56):
I'm hoping to get 40 adults
before I start meeting as a, on a Sunday.
Um, 40 adults that are not
involved in the service. So not me, not
a children's person, not a volunteer. So
those are kind of my metrics. And it is
slow going, but it also keeps me from being discouraged.
(34:18):
Okay, three people is not undoable. I can get right.
I can go find three people and tell them about what
we're doing. I can hopefully add three
people this month. I could
find somebody to host an interest meeting and schedule
it out for a couple of months from now.
>> Loren (34:35):
Yeah. Yeah, this is good.
Related to this, this
challenge is, like. I didn't know how else to say it other than, like,
formation versus hustle. Like, one of the things that
probably was good and bad for me, like, I
loved the hustle of new church. Like, I just loved
the hustle of it. But also,
like, you know, I love the
(34:57):
entrepreneurialism of it. I love the, uh, you
know, make mistakes, fail quick, move on. Like, you
know, you just didn't have time to, like, you tried something, it didn't work.
You moved on. You didn't have. You had to keep going.
How do you balance, like, the entrepreneurial
spirit with also, like, the slow,
patient work of spiritual formation? Because they
(35:18):
are, in many ways, like, they're. They don't
fit together in some ways because, like, you know,
spiritual formation, again, like, especially with having a, uh, I
don't know, again, what your Runway is, but, like, especially in some contexts, like, if
your Runway is two to three years, like,
that's gonna be hard to. To make disciples in two
or three years. Uh, talk more about how that works for
you.
>> Speaker D (35:39):
No, you're right that they are almost at
odds with one another in some ways. Um, because you're
constantly having to try to find new people and. And
go deeper with them at the same time. Not losing the
folks that you've had for a couple of weeks or a couple of months.
Um, I mean, in my
doing starting chapters of parachurch
(35:59):
ministries and then starting a church,
that fun stuff for me is the
entrepreneurial, like, let's just. Let's dream it up.
No one has any idea what this plane's gonna look like. Let's build it,
even if we're flying it. And, like, I was one of the
weirdos who loved Covid
ministry because it was like, no one has any idea
(36:20):
what this is supposed to look like. We get to just make
it all up as we go, and that's the most fun thing.
Um, that was the creative portion of it that I thought
was great. I love
that stuff. I love trying to figure out where we can meet people,
how we can do things. I Love. One
of the things that I had a mentor early on
(36:40):
in young life and youth for Christ that would tell
me, you know, you cannot be afraid of
a no show.
>> Loren (36:48):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (36:48):
You cannot be afraid of a no show club. That's what you would say. And so,
uh, for me, that, I mean, uh, I had several where I
would work on a talk, get kids excited, and
then I'd show up, and not one person would turn up.
But the. The. The discipline was, I don't
cancel. I'm, um, back the very next week at the same
time, and somebody else is going to show up.
>> Loren (37:09):
Yeah, I'm going to cut you off here, Drew,
because I think this is so important. Like, so
important. I remember one Sunday,
it was 10:35, and we would always start at
10:35, and there was literally, it was me and
the worship leader. And, I mean, there were some
kids there and the kid staff, but, like, there was
nobody in our worship space.
(37:32):
Right. There's literally empty chairs.
And everybody was like, the worship leader was looking at me like,
what are we gonna. I'm like, we're gonna roll as
if there's a full crowd. So I just got up
and I said, welcome to church. Thanks for
being here. And it's funny, like, as it turned out, like, that turned
out to be like a pretty, like, good
(37:52):
attendance Sunday. Like, everybody was just late.
But it seems like to me, once you've
kind of gone on this, even subtly, like, oh,
uh, we can start 10 minutes
later. We can just cancel. Like,
it kind of has this way of worming its way into, like, this
doesn't really matter.
>> Speaker D (38:11):
Right? No, you're right. You don't ever
cancel. That was like, you don't
cancel.
>> Loren (38:18):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:19):
No matter what. Because then all of a sudden, it gives
people excuses to miss. They begin wondering, I wonder
if he's going to cancel.
>> Loren (38:26):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (38:27):
So, yeah, you don't cancel club. That was. That's like, the rule
we used to say all the time. And, like, for me,
as a church planter, it's the discipline of,
I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna post on Facebook,
and I'm gonna be at the downtown coffee shop at.
At noon. If nobody comes and says hello to me,
I'm going back the very next week because the. The
(38:48):
work that I'm doing is still the good work, whether
anyone turns up for it or not.
>> Loren (38:53):
Um, yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:54):
And then.
>> Loren (38:54):
And that's.
>> Speaker D (38:55):
It will either be blessed by the Holy Spirit or it won't. But it's not
up to me to decide that.
>> Loren (39:00):
Right. And I think that's the other side. I was going to say, like,
to me, I would say. I used to say, like, the. The most
important characteristic of a church planner is being able to get out of bed Sunday
morning.
>> Speaker D (39:10):
Yes.
>> Loren (39:11):
Like, if you had.
>> Speaker D (39:12):
If.
>> Loren (39:12):
If Sunday morning was rough, if there wasn't great
attendance, if things went a mess, like, you've got to be
able to get out of bed Monday morning, be like,
all right, we're doing this again.
>> Speaker D (39:24):
Yeah. You have to be at a very short memory.
>> Loren (39:27):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (39:27):
And I. And, like, an unwavering optimism.
>> Loren (39:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (39:31):
And like, I don't know. A bit of a
overconfidence in the mission. Like, this
is what I'm. This. The mission is good.
>> Loren (39:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
>> Speaker D (39:42):
It reminds me not to be like.
>> Loren (39:43):
I'm getting those vibes again. Like, I want to go start a church today.
>> Speaker D (39:46):
I know a good one in Salina.
>> Loren (39:47):
I know you want me to move to Salina.
>> Speaker D (39:49):
I, uh. There's a. It reminds me of a story, a sports story. And,
I mean, this is what I used to live for. But, like.
>> Loren (39:55):
Right. Right.
>> Speaker D (39:55):
Steve Spurrier, we was coaching at Florida, used to draw
all of the football plays that he would draw. He would draw them
ending in the end zone. So, um, he would draw an
end zone on every play. So, you know, we don't
have any plays to get six yards. Every single thing we
do is to get into the end zone. And so when we don't, we go up
and run another touchdown play. Every single play is
(40:16):
a touchdown play. And that's kind of the short
memory. Like, if it didn't work out, guess what? I'm running the same
thing tomorrow. Because I'm, um. I.
It's designed to score, it's designed to work,
and so eventually, I believe that it will.
>> Loren (40:33):
You'd probably appreciate this. Jerry Rice sort of did the same thing,
right. In practice. He'd always take every catch to
the house.
>> Speaker D (40:39):
Take to the house. Yeah. That's where you're trying to go.
>> Loren (40:42):
Yeah.
All right, important question here. Before we take a break, let's talk
about soul care. How do
you. I think I don't know how to impress upon you
the importance of this. Just as a former church
planter, when think about yourself, think about your
family. Uh, I recommended to you
this book by Tim Mori, who I had on the
(41:03):
podcast a few years ago, how to plant a
church without losing your soul. Again,
maintain appropriate boundaries here. But, like,
how do you hope to take care of yourself? Take care of your family?
>> Speaker D (41:16):
Yeah. I have a. I have an amazing coach.
Um, his name's Bob Logan. He's
awesome. We meet monthly. And uh, the first
question he asks me every time is, how's your soul?
And I think this is. It's an important
thing. You're absolutely right. Like,
I have to be a person who is full
(41:36):
of love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness in order to, like, actually do any good work. In
order to allow the Holy Spirit to change me and
transform me in order to transform my community.
And as I lose sight of that, it's when I begin
thinking that it's my effort or what I'm trying to do or my work,
um, that's going to do things, then it's not.
(41:57):
I'm going to burn out. I'm going to become
ash. I meet
with him monthly. I have a ton of people that are praying
for me. He recommended I start
a core team, but then simultaneously have a prayer team.
>> Loren (42:11):
That is, yes, that's good.
>> Speaker D (42:12):
Mostly made up of folks who aren't coming to my church who don't live in
Salina. And I email them, uh, at least
monthly, sometimes twice a month. Please
pray for these specific things. Please m.
Pray for me and my family. Please pray for this thing,
these kids that I've met, these young adults that I
interacted with. This mom of three.
(42:33):
Um, please pray for us. And
that's been awesome. Just the discipline of writing those emails has
been great. I do
morning prayer as well. And I
think, you know, I mentioned this actually in a sermon yesterday.
I think it's incredibly telling that in the
prayer book that Cranmer, when they put morning and
(42:54):
evening prayer together, there's a confession and
absolution at both services, as if to
say you're going to forget between
breakfast and dinner that your sins are forgiven.
Like you're going to forget in the one day in a 20
hour period, um, that my sins
are absolved. And I think doing that for
(43:15):
me, just doing the practice of confession and
receiving absolution or, uh, remembering my
absolution is, has been very helpful for
me. Just remembering that I'm forgiven.
>> Loren (43:27):
Well, let's talk about this
because I need you to keep talking because my kid is screaming in the
background. Family, like, this is
a challenge. Like, you grew up Baptist. I was just reading Beth Alison
Barr's book. Um, can't, um,
remember the title. Recommend it.
>> Speaker D (43:43):
Oh, is it the female pastor book that just came out? I haven't read it.
Yep.
>> Loren (43:47):
How do you, how do you like balance?
Like, how do you balance that with your
wife, with your kids? Like I was of the opinion.
Like, obviously, I wanted my wife and kids to be highly involved,
but also I didn't want my wife becoming a unpaid, uh, co
pastor.
>> Speaker D (44:02):
Right. No. And that's huge. I,
I think my wife knows that she's going to be involved.
She's gotten that memo at the same time, like,
trying to set up a boundary there where it's like,
I'm planting this church on the behalf of
the Diocese of Dallas. But I do not expect you
to be an unpaid co pastor of this thing. And luckily,
(44:24):
the Episcopal Church doesn't really expect her to be
either, which is really nice. Um, there's
no, there isn't that
unwritten expectation of the pastor's
wife in my denomination as much as there as
there have been in some. Um, we don't get to put both of our names on our, on
the website as pastor. I think we're,
(44:44):
we're trying to maintain balance. I'm also like, I've. I've asked
a number of people when I meet them, how can I
pray for you? Or priests that I know that are older
and that I ask for advice? I remember
I was with a couple of them, and people were
asking them different advice. All the young priests were asking advice. And my question
was like, how do you not screw up your kids?
(45:05):
Like, my number one question, I was like, look, you guys have great kids
and they're well adjusted and they're older and
how. My kids are 7, 4, and 2. How
do I get my kids to the finish line
without me and my role and what God's doing in my
life, messing them up?
>> Loren (45:22):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (45:22):
And he said, they said, you pray for them
and you pray with them and you're around them
and you, you, you set the expectations of, hey,
look, I might not be at everything because
of my job, but when I'm at
the thing, I am 100%
at the thing. I'm there.
(45:42):
Um, part of that for me has come down to, like,
I don't wear my collar when I'm
at a school function for my daughter. She's m. The only
one that's old enough to have school stuff. So, like, yeah, I'm not
in the collar when I go to her school for pickup. I'm not my caller when I go to
her school to do, uh, to watch her
performances or whatever, just because I need her to know
(46:03):
this. His dad is being dad in this moment. And
like, ontologically, when I get into that, maybe, yeah, I'm still a priest
at that moment, but, like, no, I'm,
I'M Dad.
>> Loren (46:12):
It's a good practical boundary. It's a good practical boundary.
Uh, well, let's take a quick break here and let's come back with
some closing questions.
Let's roll into some closing questions here because, hey, my
kid is losing its mind upstairs and, well, my kid
apparently.
>> Speaker D (46:29):
My kid apparently just put himself to sleep, which has never
happened before, so a 4 year old did. So maybe
we're all sick. Who knows?
>> Loren (46:37):
Maybe, uh, you. You don't
have a pope. We don't. We kind of talked about this,
but, uh, if you were a poper or had a
significant influence in Christianity, what would you want
to do for that day?
>> Speaker D (46:52):
It's a great question. If I was, if I were to be
made Pope,
I think I would. I would like to get people together
and ask, are we really about
reconciliation? Especially people who have split off
from various denominations for whatever reason.
Do you genuinely have a roadmap towards
(47:13):
reconciliation or do you really care about it?
Or are you in. I mean, what do you, what are you actually
about? Because if you're really about reconciliation with
one another and ecumenism,
then let's have a conversation. But if you don't actually care
about those things, if not actually about that, then you're. I think you're
grieving the body of Christ. Um, so that's what I
(47:34):
would do. I would start with, with start in and go
out. Let's talk about ourselves first. Can we
see any roadmap towards unity
as Christians, or are we really just about building
our own, our own tribe, our own brand?
>> Loren (47:49):
Yeah. Uh, theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
>> Speaker D (47:59):
That's a great question. Theologian. I'd like to meet Robert
Jensen.
>> Loren (48:03):
Who? I don't know that name.
>> Speaker D (48:04):
Robert Jensen was a Lutheran theologian from 20th century. He
just, he only passed away a few years ago. Okay.
Um, but his
American theologian, he might be one of the most
important American theologians of the 20th century.
He has meant a ton to me in
my formation here recently.
Yeah, I would love to meet him. I'd also love to meet Thomas
(48:26):
Cranmer.
>> Loren (48:27):
Sure.
>> Speaker D (48:28):
And just chat.
>> Loren (48:29):
What do you think?
>> Speaker D (48:30):
What's going on?
>> Loren (48:31):
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
place?
>> Speaker D (48:35):
Uh, this is not really Christian, but I think
I'm hopeful that my
child, my oldest child, my seven year old, especially
by the time she is in high school, she will
look back at social media the way that we look at
cigarettes. Oh, that is my hope.
Uh, that, that by then we have already moved
(48:56):
Into. I cannot believe everyone was doing
this all the time. I cannot believe kids were doing this at
school because it is, it was killing people.
Yeah.
>> Loren (49:08):
You're not wrong. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
>> Speaker D (49:13):
That we might work towards being
a, ah, better reflection of Christ's unified body
in the world. That we can get over
minor things and get back onto the
creeds, the main things,
um, that we can work to re.
Enchant the world to a world that's desperate for it being re.
(49:33):
Enchanted. Like to say there's more to this than what
you can see, than what you can describe in therapy.
Like, there's more to what's going on and we can be a voice for
that and to tell people their sins are forgiven.
>> Loren (49:44):
Yeah.
Okay. I feel like I need to ask you like a good sports
question.
>> Speaker D (49:49):
Yeah, go for it.
>> Loren (49:51):
So I don't know, you're in Dallas. Like,
uh, like, how about the Cowboys coming up? Like,
yeah, yeah, they're gonna be a usual mess. Like, what do
you think?
>> Speaker D (50:00):
The Cowboys are a mess. The Cowboys will be continuing to be
a mess. I. Every
year at some point, I either like my text my brother,
I have decided once again to emotionally
invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys football team,
or the opposite will be true. Like about
eight weeks in I go, I am really glad I have not decided
(50:21):
to invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys.
But like, it's awful because they, they are
consistently. Lucy, uh,
getting. Pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.
>> Loren (50:33):
Right. Okay, you can be quick on this. Cause I know we're
running out of time, but the Cowboys are an organization
that continually astounds me when you think about like,
unlimited resources, a great
history, an owner who theoretically seems
to at least profess to care about winning. Like, sure.
What is it about that organization that can't win? I mean, I know
(50:54):
winning is not like guaranteed in the
NFL, but like.
>> Speaker D (50:59):
It'S, it's, it is, uh, it is proof that for some
teams,
getting everything right can still go wrong
because they have found a new way to lose
big games. It's not even one thing. You can't point to one
thing. Go, oh, if we can get the quarterback right, I think they have a decent
quarterback. If we get better defense, I think they
(51:19):
got decent defenders. You don't know which part of
the car is going to fall off, but
you do know that one part will eventually fall
off. Uh, yeah, that's the Cowboys. The Cowboys are
this, this institution that
has no reason to be unsuccessful, yet finds new
ways to be unsuccessful over and over and over again.
>> Loren (51:41):
I mean, I, again, I don't want to belabor the point,
but I feel like it is almost a metaphor of this idea like that
culture losing or something always
coming up short really does matter. And oh yeah,
working in that culture again. I mean we, we
talked about this somewhat from the beginning about mainline
culture. Like those cultures are hard to break and they're hard to.
(52:02):
To shift those, the unhealthy patterns. So,
uh, share if you would, how people can connect with you if they want to
get involved. Like on your prayer list. I gotta deal with my kid
screaming upstairs.
>> Speaker D (52:12):
No worries. Advent Salina. Um,
I'm at Advent Salina on Instagram. That's
a D, V, E, N T C E, L, I
N A. So line is with the C Advent sign on
Instagram. You can find my substack@father
drew.substack.com Both places are
kind of the best places to reach
(52:33):
me. Send me a message on there and I can add you to the email
list. I try not to do much
personal social media if I can for that same
reason. And I. And you know, trying to
build a church. So if you do know people in
Salina or you know, the surrounding area, it's
a big geographic reason region, let them
know we got a good one coming.
>> Loren (52:55):
Yeah, yeah, awesome.
Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. We always leave folks
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you
and also with.
>> Loren Richmond (53:11):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website@future-christian.com
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(53:31):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the podcast to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
with the Reverend Nandra Kraussen.
Father Drew is just getting started as a
church planter here in the Episcopal Diocese of
Dallas. His experience before this
was in young adult and youth ministry
in locations from Dallas to
(01:06):
Dusseldorf, Germany, an oil compound
in the Middle east, and Auburn, Alabama.
He was deeply formed by the early Aughts
emergent church movement, but pushed
deeper into Jesus through the journey and was
led into the Anglican tradition. He is
married to an incredible woman, and together they have three
little kids who daily remind them of their
(01:28):
incomplete sanctification. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with
a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha,
and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
us an email@, uh,
laurensonatemediapro.com
(01:51):
with comments, questions, or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the
future of the church.
>> Loren (02:09):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined today by Drew
Croson. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
>> Speaker D (02:19):
Of course. Thank you for pronouncing my name correctly.
>> Loren (02:22):
Yeah, I just realized, like, I did not ask you about that, and that was a
total guess, so I'm glad.
>> Speaker D (02:25):
I got it right.
>> Loren (02:27):
Yeah. Uh, anything else you want
listeners to know about you?
>> Speaker D (02:31):
Yeah, I'm. I'm an Episcopal priest in the
Diocese of Dallas planting a church, which is
kind of a crazy. A crazy endeavor. I'm learning
more and more how crazy it is every week. But, yeah,
I am, uh, if you know anybody in Salina,
Texas, I am happy to get coffee with whoever and
whomever you know.
>> Loren (02:51):
Yeah, love the hustle there. Uh, share, if you would,
kind of about your faith background and journey, what that looks like.
Ah, past and what it looks like today.
>> Speaker D (02:58):
Yeah, so I grew up in the piney
woods of East Texas. I
grew up Baptist. As many people in that area of the world
do and felt
called um, to seminary
through working at a camp that I was working at. And then like
kind of the grief and trauma of losing my dad at
(03:19):
21 kind of led me through that. I went to college to be
a sports talk radio host initially. So then
the call to be go into ministry
was kind of drastic for me. I went
to seminary initially at Denver Seminary. It's my
first, okay, first master's degree, uh, from
Denver Seminary. I uh, graduated
(03:39):
from there with a degree in Christian Spiritual formation.
That degree, the teachings of Dallas
Willard, um, a lot of the readings
that I did there began opening my
mind and my
ideas of the faith to other
streams of the Christian faith, including
(03:59):
Anglicanism. Um, I remember getting a copy of
a Book of Common Prayer from a professor and being
kind of astounded at the depth of it
and the fact and kind of the disappointment that I didn't know that this
existed. And I'd been a Christian Right. My whole life.
>> Loren (04:13):
Right.
>> Speaker D (04:14):
And morning and evening prayer became
an important thing for me still are.
I was a missionary overseas. I worked for young
life for a tiny bit. I worked for
youth for Christ, which is a lot like young life.
I worked with English speaking kids
and their parents, like what they call third culture kids.
(04:36):
I think yesterday was International third culture Kid Day.
So I worked with uh, those kinds of kids. Kids whose
moms and dads live outside of their own passport
country and have taken them in. So these
are kids who have a very unique experience and a
unique outlook on life. Um, I got
married, I have three kids. We live now
(04:56):
in North Texas in
what is the fastest growing city in the country
or one of them, Salina. And that's where
we're trying to put a church. I became
Episcopalian along the way.
>> Loren (05:09):
That was, yeah, along the way somewhere.
>> Speaker D (05:10):
Yada yada yada.
>> Loren (05:12):
Well, so much interesting stuff to dive into,
share if you would. Just anything you want. I mean, you
mentioned the Book of Common Prayers. Maybe
let's talk through that. Like how again, I grew up
Baptist and I think even to me, like the Book of Common Prayers is still kind
of a mystery to me. But it seems like
in these non liturgical settings,
(05:33):
contexts, traditions folks are
finding.
>> Speaker D (05:36):
More.
>> Loren (05:38):
Appetite for these liturgical practices. What
do you think it is about like the Book of Common Prayers that really resonates with,
with you and with others, you think?
>> Speaker D (05:46):
Uh, for me it was growing up
Baptist and then living overseas,
um, and interacting with churches kind of all over
the world.
>> Loren (05:56):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (05:57):
Um, there was this disparity in
quality of liturgy. In the churches.
Just like, I mean, every church has a liturgy, so the
goings on of the church service, there was a
disparity in the quality and how they were doing it. And it was all hit or
miss. And you walk into a service and then it always kind of came down
to the pastor, like, how good is this sermon going
(06:17):
to be? Because that's really all we're going to judge this on.
And even when I was in seminary, I knew
the people that I was in seminary with, and I liked those people. But
I also thought, like, I really don't know if
this is who we should be trusting the future of evangelicalism to.
Um, and
the, what they call the anonymity of
(06:39):
the caller initially is what
was what drew me in further, the fact that when I was
overseas and would walk into a Church of England parish or
a Anglican parish, wherever in the world,
um, Middle East, North Africa,
um, England, Germany,
it was kind of. There was this similarity.
(07:00):
There was a rhythm. Uh, you could, you could find
yourself in the part of the service, you knew where
you were, and I
really loved that. And the idea that, like, okay, the pastor, the
priest could leave because they died or got old
or whatever, and the church is not
gonna go away. And no one even asked that
(07:20):
question. Yeah, it's just, who's the next priest gonna
be? Um, to me, that was such a.
A change and a refreshing change. It wasn't this,
like, a new priest coming into this church
or leaving the church wasn't this
foundational problem, um, with the parish.
But instead, it was just another thing that happened, breathing, uh,
(07:41):
in and breathing out. I, I really.
That struck me. And
then, like, we. I think, you know, I've written about this
extensively, but, like, my experience through the emerging
church movement led me deeper into
exploring how Christianity has been done
for a longer period of time and trying to be, like, true to the
(08:04):
historic faith. But also, you know, back then, early
2000s, it was all about being authentic,
being authentic and finding some real expression.
Um, and Anglicanism
fit that well for me,
without completely dismantling
faith and losing sight of Jesus.
>> Loren (08:25):
Yeah, yeah, this is good stuff.
You know, it's funny, you mentioned, like, the leadership transition.
Like, you know, I imagine similar.
You similar. Like, I listen to a lot of, like,
evangelical kind of church revitalization,
you know. Carrie Newhoff Ranger
like, leadership transition is such an
obsession, and for good reason. Like, you've got to get
(08:47):
the next good leader in there, or else, like,
the next pastor can really tank your church. Like, I've seen it
happen. Even in my own, even in
where I live, in churches around here. But like you said, like, when it's
not about like just the pastor, like,
wow, does that make a difference?
>> Speaker D (09:04):
No, it's true. And uh, like, you know, it's a
bit of a generalization. Like it does.
>> Loren (09:08):
Right. Obviously it matters.
>> Speaker D (09:10):
Yeah.
>> Loren (09:11):
Like, obviously it matters. Like you get the wrong leader and they're, and they're just
like terrible. Like that makes a difference. But I think the
broader point you're trying to make is like, it's not just
dependent solely upon like the quality or
personality or charisma of the leader.
>> Speaker D (09:24):
Right. And it's something that we lost
as Christianity has evolved into a
less denominational alignment.
>> Loren (09:32):
Right, right.
>> Speaker D (09:33):
We, we are kind of losing that.
>> Loren (09:35):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (09:35):
Um, people, when they move to town
are just going to whatever church.
>> Loren (09:40):
Yep.
>> Speaker D (09:41):
Is the best quality or they're not going church at all.
As opposed to being like, I'm an Episcopalian, so I'm going to find the closest
Episcopal church, which I think nobody is doing that
anymore.
>> Loren (09:51):
Yeah, I mean, I mean I'm a great example.
Like, I, uh, don't know if I
guess I've admitted this in public. I am ordained Disciples
of Christ and I attend a United Methodist church because I feel like
it's the best for my family.
>> Speaker D (10:04):
Right.
>> Loren (10:05):
And it is what it is,
so.
Well, we're already getting into some interesting conversation and
I don't want to take time away from what I want to talk about here.
And that's, I think the biggest, most exciting thing to me is
I'm, um, someone who's started a church in the
mainline world and I'm very much interested in the future of
the mainline Protestant context.
(10:27):
So you're starting a church and I think the biggest question
is why start a church?
What kind of compelled you? I think conversely,
the question could be asked, and I'm sure you've been asked this,
why did you think about a new church rather than
revitalization of an existing
church? Uh, what about the community that you're in that you
want to start in? So it's a lot there, but feel free to run.
>> Speaker D (10:50):
Yeah. So there's I, there's two answers to why
it's important to plant the church in Salina,
Texas. And one is kind of the, the
more nuts and bolts
reasoning and the other is the more like grace filled
gospel, uh, reasoning.
Um, the first is that
800 people a month move to this town. It's the
(11:12):
fastest, like I said, it's the fastest growing city in the United States.
It is, it is rapidly
expanding. And it started out very small. So
just a few years ago, uh,
2018 or so, there were less than
50,000, less than 20,000 people in town.
And now we're well into the
(11:34):
70,000 people in town range,
um, last I read. But
that number is going to continue to grow at the Internet. The
independent. The school district is
going to triple in size in the next 10 years. So
people are moving to town with families. There has
never been an Episcopal church in this town.
(11:54):
There's never been a Roman Catholic church in this town. This
is Baptist country, um, through and
through. And so there is no church for me to
revitalize in Salina. There's never been
one. And so the, ah, there is a,
the nuts and bolts reasoning would be because there needs to be
an Episcopal church in a town this size. It,
(12:15):
it behooves us as a denomination to
be here, um, as people move in
and as young families come and
potential members move, um, to town.
The other reason is, you know, God is
bringing people into this area and I'm already
here and it's much cheaper to send me here than it would be to send me anywhere
(12:36):
else. I already live here. So putting a church
up to share the gospel with folks, to
tell people their sins are forgiven as they move to town
is what we are called to do as
ordained ministers. So planting a church
in Salina is an outgrowth of the
gospel. And as God is moving in our
diocese were continuing to go up. The two
(12:58):
most recent successful church plants, or the three
most recent successful church plants in
our diocese have come since the year
2000.
>> Loren (13:08):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (13:08):
And all three are kind of moving up
north, you know, From Dallas
to McKinney and Frisco to prosper and
now us in Salina. So we're,
we just keep on going north.
>> Loren (13:21):
Interesting.
So how we got connected is I wrote a
substack about kind of this idea.
What I was, uh, thinking was the future of the church, of
this parish model or community hub model.
And I think you found it and were like, hey, this is what I'm trying to do
in Texas. And I was like, dude, that's awesome.
So I guess talk more about how
(13:43):
your kind of model for church planning is going to look like
and what your vision behind that is.
>> Speaker D (13:48):
Yeah. So I am
firm believer that the parish model is
the thing that's going to outlast everything else. It's going to, I think it's
going to outlast the attractional church. It's going to
outlast A lot of these other things. Yeah, because
it takes really seriously the idea of
loving our neighbors as ourselves, including our next door
neighbors. So loving the people who share a fence with me.
(14:11):
Um, like I love myself. And I think a parish
model that, like the old
parish in England or the
UK where the priest of the
village saw the entire parish as his parish
whether they attend their church or not.
>> Loren (14:29):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (14:29):
I think is the model. So for me that involves
me finding ways to be intimately involved with this
community. Whether it's going to city council meetings,
attending arts council dialogues,
hanging out at the downtown local coffee shop in a collar
to just talk to regular people who don't go to my church.
Because I view every single citizen of Salina
(14:50):
as my parishioner, whether I ever
administer communion to them or not.
Yeah, that's what the city needs
is a uh, is a church that's for the city as opposed to a
church that's trying to get things or benefit from being
in Salina. We need a church where Salina
benefits because I'm there and the parish
(15:11):
model provides that. It also
provides in a city like Salina, that's suburb.
It's growing quickly. It's never had a
robust or vibrant cultural uh,
hub, uh, because it's never had that many people.
Providing a place where artists, visual artists,
musicians and all that can meet and gather and
(15:31):
share ideas, um, in a safe and
welcoming environment I think is important and, and
benefits the city as well. Like being a cultural hub that
hosts concerts and, and is
able to give something back to the
town. We also part of the parish model
for me involves a school.
(15:51):
Um, forever Anglican
churches have had schools and been part of education. So
up here the public schools are amazing.
We're not trying to compete with public schools.
We're going to provide childcare
preschools from from 2 years
old up to 4. Uh, that's where we're going
(16:11):
to find parents and families that need somebody
to watch their kids, provide
Christian education and get their kids prepared to go to
the great public schools. And again
a value add. Seeing those people whose kids go to my
preschool as my parishioner, whether they attend
a Sunday service or not is part of my role as a
(16:31):
parish priest.
>> Loren (16:33):
Yeah, I think that's so great. And this
is something like a bigger project I'm um, working on. I really think
childcare, like it's not a silver bullet obviously
and obviously context and space and all
that matters. But like I've
seen it done very well. Like shout out
to Sandy Dillon,
(16:54):
former colleague and pastor of Mine at Wash Park,
UMC was so good
at connecting with these families. Families
at the church preschool. And what would
inevitably happen was these families would
get connected with the church and be like, or excuse me, with the
preschool and then be like, oh, I guess we want to go to
(17:15):
church. And well, we know this pastor, we know this
church. And boom, bang, boom. And again,
I'm sure like Drew, you're not doing this just because like, hey, we want
this to be a pure like on ramp. But it
inevitably becomes that like, I don't.
>> Speaker D (17:30):
No, there's a great way. There's an, there's absolutely.
I mean it's an on ramp to getting people into the door,
to realizing that Episcopalianism is weird. I mean in a place
where there's no Episcopal church.
>> Loren (17:41):
Right.
>> Speaker D (17:42):
It, it is a benefit to have something where
you are, you know.
>> Loren (17:46):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (17:46):
Potential new member facing side door. Right.
>> Loren (17:49):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Speaker D (17:50):
And, and then the, you know, uh, the church I work at in
Prosper has a preschool
and it is, it has been a massive outreach tool for
us. So many people who don't have a church
home, whose kids love our school.
>> Loren (18:04):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (18:05):
End up coming to our services. And that's a lot of Easter
service people. I don't know if we're anywhere going
Easter. My kid loves this school. I'm going to go to his school
on Easter. And you know, it's, it's
a no brainer for us. We can show people that we love your kids,
we love your family, we're not a weirdo.
Um, come on, come and hear the good news.
>> Loren (18:26):
Okay, let's talk this then, like, and
let's try to tread lightly, I suppose.
>> Speaker D (18:32):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:34):
Navigating the mainline culture as a
new church starter, especially someone from,
not a, uh, lifelong
mainliner, not lifelong Episcopalian.
This was a challenge that I feel like I had to
navigate sometimes more
successfully than other times. But you know,
in a judicatory that
(18:57):
like the Episcopalians, like other
mainline Protestant denominations, like they've done things
one way or another for a long time and church
planting in many mainline Protestant groups has not
been, uh, a priority the last 20, 30 years. Like
talk through that. What does that look like for you?
>> Speaker D (19:15):
No, it's interesting. And like, and like you mentioned, like.
Yeah, just coming from outside of this denomination,
coming from a place where like church planting was very much normal
and you kind of people just kind of had a
language and a vocabulary for is,
is very interesting how much
I'm learning that people don't know,
(19:36):
um, within the, within this tribe
and why Would they? Like, we planted a ton of
churches a hundred years ago and they're, and they're doing really
well, but no one remembers when they were
planted.
>> Loren (19:48):
Right.
>> Speaker D (19:49):
They got beautiful buildings, they've got an endowment, they're doing
great. And we don't remember who started
it or when that happened.
>> Loren (19:56):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (19:57):
And so for a lot of people,
the idea of just like putting out a sign that says the Episcopal
Church welcomes you in front of a brand new building,
that's how you plant a church.
>> Loren (20:08):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:09):
But like, no one's gonna come.
Like, I, I think that's
the, that's the bit that is difficult to describe. Like if I
just.
>> Loren (20:18):
Oh, uh, we just go. It's so hard for some people to
grasp.
>> Speaker D (20:22):
Like if I just go buy some building
and put a sign out front and say, hey, we're having an Episcopal Church service
on Sunday. It's gonna be me and my wife and kids,
like, yeah.
>> Loren (20:31):
Ah.
>> Speaker D (20:32):
But the hard work of
meeting people or of taking or of or
of or of asking people at other churches
who live in my town, hey, would you be willing,
are you feeling called to help me come and start this in. In
our town?
>> Loren (20:48):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (20:48):
That's been a difficult kind of sell for some
people. And you're kind of, um. I'm watching people as they're
bristling because they're, their conceptions of what this looks like
are being challenged.
>> Loren (20:58):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (20:59):
But I'm having to kind of say, look, um, I'm not stealing
from people. This is, this is
our ecclesial model. Like.
>> Loren (21:07):
Right.
>> Speaker D (21:08):
We try to put churches close to where people live so you don't
have to drive past six Episcopal churches to go to the
one you like. So that's
what we're trying to do. So I'm, I am hoping
to educate, but also at the same time be educated
because I don't know a lot. And I, and I
have been running, running into the bumpers on the, on the
(21:28):
bowling lane, on how to, how to get
down there, how to figure out how to
navigate this culture that I've, I'm still somewhat
new to.
>> Loren (21:37):
Yeah. How, how long have you been in the Episcopal world again?
>> Speaker D (21:40):
Yeah, so I've been working in the episcopal world
since 2020. I've been
a, uh, confirmed Episcopalian since 21,
and I've been ordained
since 23, but I have a degree in
Anglican studies that I got somewhere there too,
and from Wycliffe in Toronto. And so
(22:02):
I now know a lot more than I did. But I'm still learning a
Ton more.
>> Loren (22:06):
Does this. Is this, like, a thing in Episcopal world where people will
be like, oh, I'm first generation, or I'm third generation
or fifth generation or fourth generation. Yeah,
Episcopal. And, uh, let me say this.
I won't say this for you, Drew. You can just,
you know, you can, uh, you can, uh, agree or not disagree.
That's up to you. Like, I'm going to say this to mainliners. I've said this
(22:27):
before. Like, don't ever say in
your church what generation mainliner you
are. It's just, like, the giant, biggest turnoff.
Anybody who's not a part of your tradition
ever, and I'm sorry to be harsh, but, like, just
don't do it ever.
>> Speaker D (22:44):
It's an interesting thing people do, and
it's. It kind of mirrors, like, up here,
since we're growing so quickly, we're
changing, the city is changing so rapidly. And
so you see a lot of people do the same thing about you. Uh, know, I've
been in Salina since 91. My granddad's
from here, and I have, like, the local bumper stickers and stuff. And so
(23:04):
you're just trying to, like, gatekeep or
other. Anybody you possibly can in order to make yourself
feel better.
>> Loren (23:11):
Colorado does it. Because Colorado has been a big thing with,
like, native. And it's like, hoof. I. I
don't want to spend.
>> Speaker D (23:18):
There's specialized license plates. If you're, like, a descendant of
the pioneer something.
>> Loren (23:22):
It's. Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it is
ridiculous. Um, it's like, hey,
obviously, we could end. We could leave this point in this. Like, we
know many, uh, people who have those
pioneer license plates were not the first people in
this part of the world. Right. We know there's
indigenous people who were there before
us. Uh, so at least we could say that.
>> Speaker D (23:44):
But no, it's interesting you bring this up because, like, I am,
um. I'm running into two different cultures.
So I am. I am fighting a culture. Not fighting.
I'm learning and butting up against a culture that doesn't have much,
uh, exposure to church planting. And then I'm doing the
same thing with a culture that's zero exposure to the
main line. So.
(24:06):
So I am, in one hand explaining what a church plant is to a group of
people, and on the other hand, explaining what it is to be
Anglican or Episcopalian to the other group of
people. Um, and both are difficult,
but both have, you know, a little bit of nuance and
fun, because the people that I'm explaining church plant to
up here, they know. They understand that there's other
(24:26):
church plants going in. And Salina. Right. You know.
>> Loren (24:29):
Right.
>> Speaker D (24:29):
They. The church they go to used to be a church plant,
but, like, they don't know what I'm doing or what an
Episcopal priest is. Um, and our church in
Prosper has so few what we call
cradle Episcopalians. It's.
We don't have really the. I've been Episcopalian for three
generations at our church. Just because nobody
up here, like, everybody comes to our church comes from some
(24:51):
other stream. That's just
the nature of it up here.
>> Loren (24:57):
Let me ask this. When I was doing, like, you know,
uh, farmers markets and, you know, any kind of tabling,
I could get to meet people, they always want to know, like, are you Christian or
Catholic? And it was easy for me. I could just be
like, oh, I'm Christian. Like, literally,
that's in. In my denomination's name.
>> Speaker D (25:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:14):
I didn't necessarily go and spill the whole, like,
denominational full name and. And stuff. But
I also don't want to overwhelm people. Like, how do you. How do you handle that?
Because what's. Like, what are the. What do people, like, want to know when
you're like, oh, you're leading a new church? Tell me about that.
>> Speaker D (25:28):
Yeah, there's a couple of. Of interesting questions I get,
and I kind of expect them and can kind of
understand what they really mean by how they ask
them.
>> Loren (25:37):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (25:37):
Um, but, you know, I get asked a lot
about the new pope, which is great.
Okay. Like, I've gotten. I'll be out and about
in my collar, and somebody will say, what do you think about the new Pope?
And I'll. And I'll be like, well, he's not mine.
Yeah, but I think he's probably great. And. And then that
leads into another conversation of, like, what do you mean he's not your
Pope? We don't have a Pope. There was a
(26:00):
whole thing about it, um, in the
1500s, and
we. I can kind of explain it, but that. Then people will say,
what is Episcopalianism? Um, is it just Catholic light?
Is it just, um. What does it mean?
Are you Protestant and. Yes, I'm Protestant. I'm as Protestant as
you guys are at your Baptist church, if not more
so. And, you know,
(26:23):
people will ask a lot of those kinds of questions.
What kind of church are, uh, you. What does your church believe?
Do you believe in the Bible? Do you believe in Jesus?
Those are the questions people will ask. And all those I'm happy to.
Happy to answer. And happy to have good conversations
with, um, somebody. I had a
girl at a coffee shop last week, two weeks ago, ask
(26:44):
me, is your church all about
trying to get people to be better people and do good stuff?
And I was like, oh, absolutely not.
Mhm. I was like, our church is a hundred percent not about that.
And she like kind of took a step back. She's like, we need more people to be
good people. We absolutely do. But we are under no
illusion that trying to be good people is
(27:04):
in any way beneficiary to people.
In fact, we. I want to tell you about Jesus and
it was wonderful. Um, she was like, oh,
okay, this sounds really cool. So I like wrote her name down. It's
really great. And
people just. When you have a collar on at the
coffee shop.
>> Loren (27:22):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (27:23):
And then you have a regular. Yeah. You have get some stairs. And
then you get people who just approach you and talk.
And then when you want to have a small talk conversation with
them, it really takes them aback because they're like, wait a minute.
Uh, I thought we were going to talk about Jesus. Yeah, you want
to talk about the cowboys. So,
uh, yeah, it's really great. It's
a really great evangelistic tool that I, I mean, I. But doing Young
(27:46):
life, I. This doesn't feel unnatural to
me. Is going out and chatting.
>> Loren (27:51):
Sure. Um, gosh, what was I going to ask
you something about that?
Anyway, let's, let's move on to
funding because don't, uh, feel like you need to
give direct specifics on money
and whatever. But like, I know. Oh, I
was going to give a shout to my Anglican co host, Martha Tatarnic, who's working
on a book on Anne Boleyn, who had something,
(28:13):
something to do with all this. Why you're not casting,
why we don't have a book.
>> Speaker D (28:17):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:17):
Right. Um, so shout out to Martha.
Let's talk funding and the challenges just of kind
of paying for it. So you don't need to give. Feel
free to share what you're comfortable feeling. Sharing. But
like, what is, how is this going to work?
>> Speaker D (28:33):
I'm. I am overwhelmed
with how blessed I am with the
support the Diocese of Dallas is giving me.
Um, overwhelmed and also kind of like challenged by it. Like
it really is kind of a. Hey, look, you got a lot of people behind
you on this deal. Don't mess it up.
Um, but the Diocese of Dallas is helping
(28:54):
by acquiring land,
um, so that a piece of property will eventually
be purchased that hopefully
the church will be put on, which is a huge.
I mean, that's a huge piece up here. The land is
kind of growing. I see. I keep saying up here
everything in Salina is considered up because of the
(29:14):
geographic gravity of Dallas. So we're all just okay.
>> Loren (29:18):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (29:18):
Uh, we
are having property purchased for us which I
know as a church planter is like
incredible.
>> Loren (29:28):
Yeah, it's a big deal.
>> Speaker D (29:29):
It's a big deal. The funding for the building
eventually will hopefully come from the school.
So that's part of the reason for starting a preschool is that it's a, it is
a profit maker.
>> Loren (29:40):
Right.
>> Speaker D (29:41):
To help fund a church plant that is
not uh, going to be able to afford a building on its own for most
likely a very long time.
>> Loren (29:50):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (29:51):
And so funding for that will come from the school, will
hopefully come from um, a capital campaign
from the core team that I'm assembling. Some of
that will go in there as well, maybe some from the diocese as well.
We're still working on grants and things like that to hopefully
get money to help build the school that then the school
can help pay for
(30:12):
the building that the church can meet in. That's kind of
the financial structure I've got worked out right now.
It allows for me to still keep a very,
very bare bones church budget
while meeting in a building that I can't afford.
Before that takes place though, we're meet, we're going to meet, you know, like
everybody else does school or in a, you know,
(30:34):
cafe, whatever, whoever, wherever I can rent space.
>> Loren (30:37):
Right, right. Uh, was
who, who came up with this idea of like the preschool because uh,
like several years ago, or I guess it wasn't several, but a few
years ago like there was actually in my neck of the woods like an
Episcopal church that was being sold and I looked
at it with a real estate agent, was like oh my goodness, like this would be a great
property to do like a, do childcare in. It had
(30:57):
a big chunk of undeveloped land. We could build some affordable
housing. But like when I talked to a few people they looked at me like
outsideways like
uh, how have you, what's been the reception of saying like hey, we want
to do this preschool to help fund our, our ministry
going forward?
>> Speaker D (31:12):
Well I think for us it's been,
we have a, we have a case study
that's St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper.
So St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Prosper was planted.
Uh, they had their first service in a school,
I want to say in 2008, but they didn't build
a building until 2016. But the building
(31:33):
was built and a preschool was
opened like simultaneously. So,
and then looking at the numbers, the preschool is,
is carrying all of the capital costs.
>> Loren (31:46):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (31:46):
Of the building. And so I can point
at that and go, hey, look, that works. Right?
And it works enough that banks are okay with
loaning towards it.
>> Loren (31:57):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (31:57):
Um, because there is a guarantee and there's so many. The
average person moving to my town is in their 30s
and has at least one kid. So it's, it
is, uh, it's a necessary thing
up here. We don't have enough preschools. So it makes a
lot of sense that we can move into the market in that way.
>> Loren (32:15):
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's talk, let's uh, switch gears a little bit to talking about
metrics. This is obviously like an important thing
when it comes to new church. You know,
depending on who you're working with and
depending on what context you're working in, people are going to want to know, like, how many
people, what are your offerings. That being
said, like those kind of questions of like how much money you're bringing
(32:36):
in is again, like the challenge of a new church
because especially if we're getting folks who are unchurched or
new to the faith, like they're not necessarily discipled into giving
a huge amount every week. And
you know, becoming self sustaining after
two, three years is going to be really challenging.
So do you have like a,
(32:57):
like I used to have in my context, like some, like
I'd want to have one or two new
visitors like every week. Um, so, you know,
having regular volunteers, like what are some,
I used to always, always say, like, I'm going to try to have,
talk to 10 people outside the church about my
new church. Do you have some metrics that you've thought about that
(33:18):
uh, you want to try to aim for and also
thought about maybe what you're going to try to
not emphasize. Does that make sense?
>> Speaker D (33:26):
Yeah, I'm hoping, I mean, we're still so
new on this thing that I, I, we
haven't met as a core team much.
Sure. And uh, part of that's by design, part of that.
I'm trying to take it a slow, a slow growth
model.
>> Loren (33:41):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (33:42):
Um, so I'm trying to, I
think your metrics are pretty dead on what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to talk to three
people a week about the church.
Trying to add three people a month
to the core team.
>> Loren (33:55):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (33:56):
I'm hoping to get 40 adults
before I start meeting as a, on a Sunday.
Um, 40 adults that are not
involved in the service. So not me, not
a children's person, not a volunteer. So
those are kind of my metrics. And it is
slow going, but it also keeps me from being discouraged.
(34:18):
Okay, three people is not undoable. I can get right.
I can go find three people and tell them about what
we're doing. I can hopefully add three
people this month. I could
find somebody to host an interest meeting and schedule
it out for a couple of months from now.
>> Loren (34:35):
Yeah. Yeah, this is good.
Related to this, this
challenge is, like. I didn't know how else to say it other than, like,
formation versus hustle. Like, one of the things that
probably was good and bad for me, like, I
loved the hustle of new church. Like, I just loved
the hustle of it. But also,
like, you know, I love the
(34:57):
entrepreneurialism of it. I love the, uh, you
know, make mistakes, fail quick, move on. Like, you
know, you just didn't have time to, like, you tried something, it didn't work.
You moved on. You didn't have. You had to keep going.
How do you balance, like, the entrepreneurial
spirit with also, like, the slow,
patient work of spiritual formation? Because they
(35:18):
are, in many ways, like, they're. They don't
fit together in some ways because, like, you know,
spiritual formation, again, like, especially with having a, uh, I
don't know, again, what your Runway is, but, like, especially in some contexts, like, if
your Runway is two to three years, like,
that's gonna be hard to. To make disciples in two
or three years. Uh, talk more about how that works for
you.
>> Speaker D (35:39):
No, you're right that they are almost at
odds with one another in some ways. Um, because you're
constantly having to try to find new people and. And
go deeper with them at the same time. Not losing the
folks that you've had for a couple of weeks or a couple of months.
Um, I mean, in my
doing starting chapters of parachurch
(35:59):
ministries and then starting a church,
that fun stuff for me is the
entrepreneurial, like, let's just. Let's dream it up.
No one has any idea what this plane's gonna look like. Let's build it,
even if we're flying it. And, like, I was one of the
weirdos who loved Covid
ministry because it was like, no one has any idea
(36:20):
what this is supposed to look like. We get to just make
it all up as we go, and that's the most fun thing.
Um, that was the creative portion of it that I thought
was great. I love
that stuff. I love trying to figure out where we can meet people,
how we can do things. I Love. One
of the things that I had a mentor early on
(36:40):
in young life and youth for Christ that would tell
me, you know, you cannot be afraid of
a no show.
>> Loren (36:48):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (36:48):
You cannot be afraid of a no show club. That's what you would say. And so,
uh, for me, that, I mean, uh, I had several where I
would work on a talk, get kids excited, and
then I'd show up, and not one person would turn up.
But the. The. The discipline was, I don't
cancel. I'm, um, back the very next week at the same
time, and somebody else is going to show up.
>> Loren (37:09):
Yeah, I'm going to cut you off here, Drew,
because I think this is so important. Like, so
important. I remember one Sunday,
it was 10:35, and we would always start at
10:35, and there was literally, it was me and
the worship leader. And, I mean, there were some
kids there and the kid staff, but, like, there was
nobody in our worship space.
(37:32):
Right. There's literally empty chairs.
And everybody was like, the worship leader was looking at me like,
what are we gonna. I'm like, we're gonna roll as
if there's a full crowd. So I just got up
and I said, welcome to church. Thanks for
being here. And it's funny, like, as it turned out, like, that turned
out to be like a pretty, like, good
(37:52):
attendance Sunday. Like, everybody was just late.
But it seems like to me, once you've
kind of gone on this, even subtly, like, oh,
uh, we can start 10 minutes
later. We can just cancel. Like,
it kind of has this way of worming its way into, like, this
doesn't really matter.
>> Speaker D (38:11):
Right? No, you're right. You don't ever
cancel. That was like, you don't
cancel.
>> Loren (38:18):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:19):
No matter what. Because then all of a sudden, it gives
people excuses to miss. They begin wondering, I wonder
if he's going to cancel.
>> Loren (38:26):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (38:27):
So, yeah, you don't cancel club. That was. That's like, the rule
we used to say all the time. And, like, for me,
as a church planter, it's the discipline of,
I'm gonna show up, I'm gonna post on Facebook,
and I'm gonna be at the downtown coffee shop at.
At noon. If nobody comes and says hello to me,
I'm going back the very next week because the. The
(38:48):
work that I'm doing is still the good work, whether
anyone turns up for it or not.
>> Loren (38:53):
Um, yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:54):
And then.
>> Loren (38:54):
And that's.
>> Speaker D (38:55):
It will either be blessed by the Holy Spirit or it won't. But it's not
up to me to decide that.
>> Loren (39:00):
Right. And I think that's the other side. I was going to say, like,
to me, I would say. I used to say, like, the. The most
important characteristic of a church planner is being able to get out of bed Sunday
morning.
>> Speaker D (39:10):
Yes.
>> Loren (39:11):
Like, if you had.
>> Speaker D (39:12):
If.
>> Loren (39:12):
If Sunday morning was rough, if there wasn't great
attendance, if things went a mess, like, you've got to be
able to get out of bed Monday morning, be like,
all right, we're doing this again.
>> Speaker D (39:24):
Yeah. You have to be at a very short memory.
>> Loren (39:27):
Yes.
>> Speaker D (39:27):
And I. And, like, an unwavering optimism.
>> Loren (39:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (39:31):
And like, I don't know. A bit of a
overconfidence in the mission. Like, this
is what I'm. This. The mission is good.
>> Loren (39:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
>> Speaker D (39:42):
It reminds me not to be like.
>> Loren (39:43):
I'm getting those vibes again. Like, I want to go start a church today.
>> Speaker D (39:46):
I know a good one in Salina.
>> Loren (39:47):
I know you want me to move to Salina.
>> Speaker D (39:49):
I, uh. There's a. It reminds me of a story, a sports story. And,
I mean, this is what I used to live for. But, like.
>> Loren (39:55):
Right. Right.
>> Speaker D (39:55):
Steve Spurrier, we was coaching at Florida, used to draw
all of the football plays that he would draw. He would draw them
ending in the end zone. So, um, he would draw an
end zone on every play. So, you know, we don't
have any plays to get six yards. Every single thing we
do is to get into the end zone. And so when we don't, we go up
and run another touchdown play. Every single play is
(40:16):
a touchdown play. And that's kind of the short
memory. Like, if it didn't work out, guess what? I'm running the same
thing tomorrow. Because I'm, um. I.
It's designed to score, it's designed to work,
and so eventually, I believe that it will.
>> Loren (40:33):
You'd probably appreciate this. Jerry Rice sort of did the same thing,
right. In practice. He'd always take every catch to
the house.
>> Speaker D (40:39):
Take to the house. Yeah. That's where you're trying to go.
>> Loren (40:42):
Yeah.
All right, important question here. Before we take a break, let's talk
about soul care. How do
you. I think I don't know how to impress upon you
the importance of this. Just as a former church
planter, when think about yourself, think about your
family. Uh, I recommended to you
this book by Tim Mori, who I had on the
(41:03):
podcast a few years ago, how to plant a
church without losing your soul. Again,
maintain appropriate boundaries here. But, like,
how do you hope to take care of yourself? Take care of your family?
>> Speaker D (41:16):
Yeah. I have a. I have an amazing coach.
Um, his name's Bob Logan. He's
awesome. We meet monthly. And uh, the first
question he asks me every time is, how's your soul?
And I think this is. It's an important
thing. You're absolutely right. Like,
I have to be a person who is full
(41:36):
of love, joy, peace, patience,
kindness in order to, like, actually do any good work. In
order to allow the Holy Spirit to change me and
transform me in order to transform my community.
And as I lose sight of that, it's when I begin
thinking that it's my effort or what I'm trying to do or my work,
um, that's going to do things, then it's not.
(41:57):
I'm going to burn out. I'm going to become
ash. I meet
with him monthly. I have a ton of people that are praying
for me. He recommended I start
a core team, but then simultaneously have a prayer team.
>> Loren (42:11):
That is, yes, that's good.
>> Speaker D (42:12):
Mostly made up of folks who aren't coming to my church who don't live in
Salina. And I email them, uh, at least
monthly, sometimes twice a month. Please
pray for these specific things. Please m.
Pray for me and my family. Please pray for this thing,
these kids that I've met, these young adults that I
interacted with. This mom of three.
(42:33):
Um, please pray for us. And
that's been awesome. Just the discipline of writing those emails has
been great. I do
morning prayer as well. And I
think, you know, I mentioned this actually in a sermon yesterday.
I think it's incredibly telling that in the
prayer book that Cranmer, when they put morning and
(42:54):
evening prayer together, there's a confession and
absolution at both services, as if to
say you're going to forget between
breakfast and dinner that your sins are forgiven.
Like you're going to forget in the one day in a 20
hour period, um, that my sins
are absolved. And I think doing that for
(43:15):
me, just doing the practice of confession and
receiving absolution or, uh, remembering my
absolution is, has been very helpful for
me. Just remembering that I'm forgiven.
>> Loren (43:27):
Well, let's talk about this
because I need you to keep talking because my kid is screaming in the
background. Family, like, this is
a challenge. Like, you grew up Baptist. I was just reading Beth Alison
Barr's book. Um, can't, um,
remember the title. Recommend it.
>> Speaker D (43:43):
Oh, is it the female pastor book that just came out? I haven't read it.
Yep.
>> Loren (43:47):
How do you, how do you like balance?
Like, how do you balance that with your
wife, with your kids? Like I was of the opinion.
Like, obviously, I wanted my wife and kids to be highly involved,
but also I didn't want my wife becoming a unpaid, uh, co
pastor.
>> Speaker D (44:02):
Right. No. And that's huge. I,
I think my wife knows that she's going to be involved.
She's gotten that memo at the same time, like,
trying to set up a boundary there where it's like,
I'm planting this church on the behalf of
the Diocese of Dallas. But I do not expect you
to be an unpaid co pastor of this thing. And luckily,
(44:24):
the Episcopal Church doesn't really expect her to be
either, which is really nice. Um, there's
no, there isn't that
unwritten expectation of the pastor's
wife in my denomination as much as there as
there have been in some. Um, we don't get to put both of our names on our, on
the website as pastor. I think we're,
(44:44):
we're trying to maintain balance. I'm also like, I've. I've asked
a number of people when I meet them, how can I
pray for you? Or priests that I know that are older
and that I ask for advice? I remember
I was with a couple of them, and people were
asking them different advice. All the young priests were asking advice. And my question
was like, how do you not screw up your kids?
(45:05):
Like, my number one question, I was like, look, you guys have great kids
and they're well adjusted and they're older and
how. My kids are 7, 4, and 2. How
do I get my kids to the finish line
without me and my role and what God's doing in my
life, messing them up?
>> Loren (45:22):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (45:22):
And he said, they said, you pray for them
and you pray with them and you're around them
and you, you, you set the expectations of, hey,
look, I might not be at everything because
of my job, but when I'm at
the thing, I am 100%
at the thing. I'm there.
(45:42):
Um, part of that for me has come down to, like,
I don't wear my collar when I'm
at a school function for my daughter. She's m. The only
one that's old enough to have school stuff. So, like, yeah, I'm not
in the collar when I go to her school for pickup. I'm not my caller when I go to
her school to do, uh, to watch her
performances or whatever, just because I need her to know
(46:03):
this. His dad is being dad in this moment. And
like, ontologically, when I get into that, maybe, yeah, I'm still a priest
at that moment, but, like, no, I'm,
I'M Dad.
>> Loren (46:12):
It's a good practical boundary. It's a good practical boundary.
Uh, well, let's take a quick break here and let's come back with
some closing questions.
Let's roll into some closing questions here because, hey, my
kid is losing its mind upstairs and, well, my kid
apparently.
>> Speaker D (46:29):
My kid apparently just put himself to sleep, which has never
happened before, so a 4 year old did. So maybe
we're all sick. Who knows?
>> Loren (46:37):
Maybe, uh, you. You don't
have a pope. We don't. We kind of talked about this,
but, uh, if you were a poper or had a
significant influence in Christianity, what would you want
to do for that day?
>> Speaker D (46:52):
It's a great question. If I was, if I were to be
made Pope,
I think I would. I would like to get people together
and ask, are we really about
reconciliation? Especially people who have split off
from various denominations for whatever reason.
Do you genuinely have a roadmap towards
(47:13):
reconciliation or do you really care about it?
Or are you in. I mean, what do you, what are you actually
about? Because if you're really about reconciliation with
one another and ecumenism,
then let's have a conversation. But if you don't actually care
about those things, if not actually about that, then you're. I think you're
grieving the body of Christ. Um, so that's what I
(47:34):
would do. I would start with, with start in and go
out. Let's talk about ourselves first. Can we
see any roadmap towards unity
as Christians, or are we really just about building
our own, our own tribe, our own brand?
>> Loren (47:49):
Yeah. Uh, theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
>> Speaker D (47:59):
That's a great question. Theologian. I'd like to meet Robert
Jensen.
>> Loren (48:03):
Who? I don't know that name.
>> Speaker D (48:04):
Robert Jensen was a Lutheran theologian from 20th century. He
just, he only passed away a few years ago. Okay.
Um, but his
American theologian, he might be one of the most
important American theologians of the 20th century.
He has meant a ton to me in
my formation here recently.
Yeah, I would love to meet him. I'd also love to meet Thomas
(48:26):
Cranmer.
>> Loren (48:27):
Sure.
>> Speaker D (48:28):
And just chat.
>> Loren (48:29):
What do you think?
>> Speaker D (48:30):
What's going on?
>> Loren (48:31):
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
place?
>> Speaker D (48:35):
Uh, this is not really Christian, but I think
I'm hopeful that my
child, my oldest child, my seven year old, especially
by the time she is in high school, she will
look back at social media the way that we look at
cigarettes. Oh, that is my hope.
Uh, that, that by then we have already moved
(48:56):
Into. I cannot believe everyone was doing
this all the time. I cannot believe kids were doing this at
school because it is, it was killing people.
Yeah.
>> Loren (49:08):
You're not wrong. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?
>> Speaker D (49:13):
That we might work towards being
a, ah, better reflection of Christ's unified body
in the world. That we can get over
minor things and get back onto the
creeds, the main things,
um, that we can work to re.
Enchant the world to a world that's desperate for it being re.
(49:33):
Enchanted. Like to say there's more to this than what
you can see, than what you can describe in therapy.
Like, there's more to what's going on and we can be a voice for
that and to tell people their sins are forgiven.
>> Loren (49:44):
Yeah.
Okay. I feel like I need to ask you like a good sports
question.
>> Speaker D (49:49):
Yeah, go for it.
>> Loren (49:51):
So I don't know, you're in Dallas. Like,
uh, like, how about the Cowboys coming up? Like,
yeah, yeah, they're gonna be a usual mess. Like, what do
you think?
>> Speaker D (50:00):
The Cowboys are a mess. The Cowboys will be continuing to be
a mess. I. Every
year at some point, I either like my text my brother,
I have decided once again to emotionally
invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys football team,
or the opposite will be true. Like about
eight weeks in I go, I am really glad I have not decided
(50:21):
to invest myself in the Dallas Cowboys.
But like, it's awful because they, they are
consistently. Lucy, uh,
getting. Pulling the football away from Charlie Brown.
>> Loren (50:33):
Right. Okay, you can be quick on this. Cause I know we're
running out of time, but the Cowboys are an organization
that continually astounds me when you think about like,
unlimited resources, a great
history, an owner who theoretically seems
to at least profess to care about winning. Like, sure.
What is it about that organization that can't win? I mean, I know
(50:54):
winning is not like guaranteed in the
NFL, but like.
>> Speaker D (50:59):
It'S, it's, it is, uh, it is proof that for some
teams,
getting everything right can still go wrong
because they have found a new way to lose
big games. It's not even one thing. You can't point to one
thing. Go, oh, if we can get the quarterback right, I think they have a decent
quarterback. If we get better defense, I think they
(51:19):
got decent defenders. You don't know which part of
the car is going to fall off, but
you do know that one part will eventually fall
off. Uh, yeah, that's the Cowboys. The Cowboys are
this, this institution that
has no reason to be unsuccessful, yet finds new
ways to be unsuccessful over and over and over again.
>> Loren (51:41):
I mean, I, again, I don't want to belabor the point,
but I feel like it is almost a metaphor of this idea like that
culture losing or something always
coming up short really does matter. And oh yeah,
working in that culture again. I mean we, we
talked about this somewhat from the beginning about mainline
culture. Like those cultures are hard to break and they're hard to.
(52:02):
To shift those, the unhealthy patterns. So,
uh, share if you would, how people can connect with you if they want to
get involved. Like on your prayer list. I gotta deal with my kid
screaming upstairs.
>> Speaker D (52:12):
No worries. Advent Salina. Um,
I'm at Advent Salina on Instagram. That's
a D, V, E, N T C E, L, I
N A. So line is with the C Advent sign on
Instagram. You can find my substack@father
drew.substack.com Both places are
kind of the best places to reach
(52:33):
me. Send me a message on there and I can add you to the email
list. I try not to do much
personal social media if I can for that same
reason. And I. And you know, trying to
build a church. So if you do know people in
Salina or you know, the surrounding area, it's
a big geographic reason region, let them
know we got a good one coming.
>> Loren (52:55):
Yeah, yeah, awesome.
Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. We always leave folks
with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you
and also with.
>> Loren Richmond (53:11):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website@future-christian.com
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(53:31):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the podcast to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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