Embracing the Edges of Faith with Brian Pearson

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha Tatarnic welcomes Brian E. Pearson to the
show. Brian is a former Anglican priest who for
almost 40 years knew both the sublime and the
ridiculous of the church world, often loving it,
sometimes hating it, but eventually leaving to
follow his own path. He is the author of how the

(01:06):
Light Gets in Passion, Tide and Pie Faceboy. He is
a member of the Writers Guild of Alberta and the
Alexandra Writers Center Society. A singer
songwriter, Pearson is also the producer and host
of the Mystic Cave, a, uh, podcast that explores
the elements of both new and ancient of an

(01:27):
emerging contemporary spirituality. He lives in
Calgary, Alberta with his wife Jean, close to his
three grown children and two granddaughters. A,
uh, reminder before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. You can connect with Loren, Martha and

(01:49):
Future Christian, um, on Instagram. We really
appreciate your voice and how we faithfully
discern the future of the church.

>> Martha Tatarnic (02:05):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your
host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic, and I'm
really happy today to be joined by Brian Pearson.
Welcome, Brian.

>> Brian E. Pearson (02:15):
Thank you, Martha. It is, um, a great pleasure to
be here. This is the first podcast, um, interview
I've done since the books come out. So this is
exciting for me.

Oh my gosh. Well, that's really exciting. Thank
you for making Future Christian first stop on your
podcast tour.

Yeah, you bet.

That's amazing. We were talking just before the
show began and noting that, uh, although we have
never met one another in person, um, we have a
million people in common and uh, have been
Facebook friends for a long time. That's how the
Anglican world works.

Is that very small?

And we're very connected to one another. Anyway,
it's great to have this face to face time with you
right now and uh, to be talking about your book.
So before we get into your book, let's just have a
couple of opening questions so that our listeners
get a bit of a Sense of you and, uh, who you are.

(03:13):
Maybe you could just share a little bit about your
faith journey, what it has looked like in the past
and what it looks like now. Broad brush strokes.

Sure. Um, so I am, um, cradle, ah, Anglican
churchgoing family, which was significant to me
and I think to the whole family because we moved a
lot back and forth across Canada and the church
became the way we kind of settled into every new
community. Um, so it was a very kind of familial

(03:45):
thing that we would get to know the local
community and uh, uh, the church would be our
portal. So, uh, church has always been part of my
life, part of my history, part of my blood.
Wherever I am at now, I still. I think I'd like an
Anglican funeral when I go. Um, but along the way,

(04:06):
uh, through the church, I was introduced in the
days of the Jesus People movement to, uh,
Evangelical Charismatic Christianity. And that was
a hoot. That was quite a wild ride, um, where
apart from sort of, uh, delighting in the power
and presence of the Holy Spirit, we were also

(04:27):
judging everyone, like, you know, my own parents
for not being Christian, having brought me up in
church. So had that experience. Um, went to, uh,
an Anglo Catholic, um, divinity school, which is
Trinity College. And those in the Canadian church
will recognize I had another option. Right across
the street was Wycliffe College, and that's the

(04:49):
Evangelical College. And that's where I should
have gone. Except part of me, and this is just
part of me, I kept thinking about. Yeah, but I
know nothing about the Anglo Catholic Church.
That's a, uh, mystery to me. So why don't I go
there? Yeah. Yeah. So I went there anyway. I ended
up being ordained, uh, was, um, in active ministry

(05:10):
for almost, uh, 40 years. Uh, loved the work, uh,
grew to be deeply disillusioned with working
within the church. And by the time I retired, um,
without slamming any doors, I left the church. I
just never went back. The first Easter came and
went. The first Christmas came and went. And I

(05:31):
kept thinking inwardly, like looking inwardly of
shouldn't I be going to church? And there was
nothing in me that wanted me to. So clearly a, uh,
level of disaffection had settled upon me. And
I've spent the last six and a half years exploring
all of the spiritual avenues that I felt were not

(05:52):
available to me while I was preaching the one way.
Uh, and it's been a fabulous ride. I still think
of myself as a follower of Jesus, but I rarely
have gone to church. And when I have, I know too
much. I can't Be uncritical. I sit in the pews
going, that was a dog of a sermon. I mean, we've

(06:14):
all come out to hear. And this was last Christmas
Eve. We've all come out to hear the word of God in
this sacred place. The music's great. And you have
no sermon for us other than, gee, it's hard to
preach about Christmas. Like, I can't turn off the
inner critic when I go to church. So I'm finding
other ways, other communities. And anyway, that's

(06:36):
broad strokes, what my journey has been.

So basically, you have covered a lot of spiritual
terrain.

I think so, yeah.

You've kind of done the whole gamut of Anglicanism
and beyond.

Yeah. Okay.

M. Interesting.
So, you know, right now, as somebody who, um,
isn't part of a Christian church, is there a
spiritual practice that has become particularly
meaningful for you in the last few years?

Um, yes, several, uh, things. Although, like, with
any spiritual practice, if I tell you what I'm
doing, I'll be judged as a hypocrite because
practices come and go and you're good at them,
then you're bad at them and you remember them and
you go back. But I do every, uh, morning I do
about a half hour stretching exercise. And it was

(07:28):
developed purely to strengthen my core, to protect
my lower back because I have lower back issues.
But the more that my body has become a part of,
excuse me, my spiritual path, that morning stretch
time has become like a spiritual exercise. It's

(07:48):
almost. There were times, it's almost like dance,
where I'm moving from one movement to the next.
And they all have a purpose in terms of my
strengthening my core. But there's something else
going on there that I quite love. I also do a, uh,
I, uh, honor the four directions and have my own
kind of ritual around that at the conclusion of

(08:09):
it, um, even more hypocritically, um, I gotta get
out in nature. Uh, I've spent the whole summer
almost indoors, so trying to sell this book and
attending to it, attending to all the stuff about
starting up my own podcast for a new season. And
I've spent almost. I've either been indoors or in

(08:31):
the car. Uh, but when I can get out in the natural
world, that's become a part of my spiritual
discipline. And not just going for a hike in the
mountains because we're close to the mountains
here, but going on what I would call wild wanders.
You leave the path and you go with intention and
wonder what the natural world has for you. The

(08:51):
other, I guess these I'll uh, just add two more
things, but just briefly. One is I nurture a very
wide network of fellow seekers who have become my
new community. Because I don't think you can do
this spiritual journey without feeling a part of
some community. So, um, I nurture that. Uh, I

(09:13):
spend a lot of time, uh, with people individually
and in small groups. Um, and apart from that,
there's something about the spiritual discipline
of being present that, um, has totally grasped me.
So I just paying attention to where is the divine
in this moment, where is the divine in our

(09:33):
conversation? What's coming up from the inside
that I want to pay attention to? It's that
sacrament of the present moment, you know, um,
that I try to cultivate. That's pretty broad too,
though, isn't it? That whole.

I mean, certainly I wouldn't define anything on
that list as hypocritical. Uh, I feel like.

Well, I don't always do it.

Oh, that's the hypocritical part. I see. Okay.

I love to get out in nature. Yeah. And it's been
two months since I've had a good walk in nature.
So.

I see.

Hypocritical.

Okay, okay, Right, right. But, um, yes, I
understand the way that writing books is one thing
and selling them is another thing.

No kidding. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I think all of that gives us a
really good platform from which to jump into your
book. Talking to a Journ into Soul.
And there's a lot in this book I've kind of
focused, um, my questions and our conversation
today around church leadership. And, uh, you know,

(10:41):
you have a wealth of experience in church
leadership. Um, but I think we'll touch on a lot
of different things that people will find
interesting. So your book starts by, um, you
talking about standing outside of a church,
watching people coming out and wanting to ask them

(11:01):
questions about why they're there and what they're
looking for and what message they heard and where
they expect to encounter God. Um, quite a
fascinating list of questions, especially on your
way out of a church rather than on your way into a

(11:22):
church. But, uh, what has the role of the church
been in your spiritual journey, Brian?

So I feel, um, oddly tremendous gratitude for the
role the church has played in my life. And I think
it provided for me a kind of container for all of
my spiritual curiosity until the container became
too small. But in the early days, like, as I say,

(11:52):
as a family, going to church was like, um, going
home. Even if we were in a brand, we'd moved to a
brand new community. So there was A sense of, uh,
belonging that I could just take for. In some
ways, I think about my. I talk about this with
some of my friends, uh, in ministry that, um, it

(12:13):
was very easy to find myself drawn to ordained
ministry because I already felt this was my
community. What's my role within this community?
It didn't occur to me to think outside of the
community other than I was singing songs and
trying to get recorded. And there was a part of me
that wanted to explore, uh, being a musician. So

(12:35):
actually I quit divinity school for a year to
explore that. And it was fun and disastrous at the
same time. I just met so many broken musicians who
were playing in bars and on Holiday Inn hotels.
Uh, just not. I just realized, okay, that's not my
vocation. But there was something about the
familial sense of the church where it just, it

(12:58):
contained me in a very creative way. But I had a
guest on my own podcast a couple of years ago who
named something that was quite shocking. He's a,
uh, he's a Christian mystic and, um, a lovely man
deep in his faith. And I asked him about church
going about himself because he had said something

(13:20):
off mic that sounded kind of critical. So I just
said, so what's church going like for you? And he
said, and then I think regretted saying it. He
said, church going seems to be geared for the
beginners. M And that as he grew deeper in his
faith, and in his case it was the mystic side of
Christianity. So contemplation, meditation, um,

(13:44):
churchgoing felt like it was all container and no
invitation. It wasn't an invitation to grow bigger
and beyond. And when he said that, I mean, it
stuck with me because I thought, yes, that was my
experience, that, uh, the church was a wonderful
container until it felt like it was holding me

(14:08):
back from a natural curiosity that led me to want
to explore all sorts of spiritual truths and
experiences and practices on the edges of our
faith. And the church doesn't like you to go
there. So, um, talking like communing with the
dead? Yeah, not so much. The church talks a lot

(14:30):
about the communion of saints.

Mhm.

But don't actually try to connect with one and
have a conversation with one, because that just
gets too spooky. In our church here in Calgary, we
once hosted a weekend workshop about death and
dying, but it was not about the Christian view of
death and dying. We talk about that every week. It
was anecdotally people who work in hospice, people

(14:56):
who are spiritualists who facilitate, um,
conversations with dead people. Uh, we had all
these people come and give um, a presentation
about what actually happens in death, quite apart
from what we believe about death. This to me was
where the church ought to be pushing out the
bounds. We could do this, but we had to do it

(15:19):
secretively so that my bishop wouldn't know until
afterwards that we had done this. And I thought,
that's not right. So anyway, so as a container,
when I needed it, the church was great. And then
as my curiosity and interest began to deepen and
grow, the container was actually, um, an

(15:40):
impediment.

Yeah, yeah. I find it, um, interesting, the pieces
of those 40 years in parish leadership and kind of
the lifelong, um, participation in the life of the
church. Um, I think it's interesting the parts
that you have brought forward into the edges of

(16:06):
um, our Christian faith, particularly your note
around the importance of community, the importance
of one another's stories of um, not trying to do
this alone or forge this alone. Um, uh, but yeah,
there are some boundaries, um, that are always

(16:30):
being pushed at. If you look at the church that is
today, it's quite different, um, than it was a
couple of generations ago. But a lot of people get
their eyebrows singed off as they sort of nudge at
those boundaries.

But, you know, so I was thinking about one of the
details of the early part of Jesus ministry, um,
that I think we brush over is when he was ready to
start his earthly ministry. He did not go to the
Jewish establishment in Jerusalem. He knew that

(17:10):
was a non starter. He hadn't gone to the right
schools. They would not acknowledge he was an
itinerant preacher from nowhere. Um, he knew that
the core of his religious community could not give
him the validation or affirmation that he would
have wanted, even if it was just ceremonial, so
that he could begin his ministry. So he went out

(17:32):
to John the Baptist, who was truly, literally an
eccentric. He was off center. Uh, it sounds
personally a little off center, but also off
center culturally. He was out on the edges and
that's where Jesus went. As if that's the only
place new life can be identified, can be
recognized at the edges. Because what happens at

(17:56):
the core, and then talking about the church, what
happens in the core is that we become by nature
very conservative. Our view is like when we ordain
a bishop, one of the functions of the bishop is
defender of the faith. I'm thinking, give me a
break. If this faith is so fragile, it needs a
human being to defend it, you know, like it's not

(18:19):
worthy. It's not worthy of us. Like we don't have
to Defend this. We have a great mythic story that
we need to tell and ritualize and all the things
that the church does, does well. But new life is
always going to come from the edges. And usually
that's exactly where the church doesn't want to
go. It says, well, I don't know, that's a little

(18:40):
woo woo. Yeah, maybe that's a little woo woo. And
that's maybe exactly where we need to go. Maybe we
should be talking to dead people a little bit more
or whatever's out there on the edge.

Well, I think that's beautiful, um, and very apt
to point out where Jesus ministry begins, uh, and
who he begins it with as well. I mean he really
does sort of go to the highways and the byways and
invite the stragglers to be part of starting this

(19:14):
with him. So, um, you know, really good wisdom
there. I want to say, Brian, as I was. Well, you
know, I want our listeners to get some good plugs
for your book because, um, it is so readable. Um,
it's just you're never just like taking uh, a

(19:38):
point and you know, sort of breaking it down. Like
you're telling stories every step of the way and
then little nuggets emerge from those stories. It
kind of always starts story based.
And of course what struck me the most, um, as a

(20:01):
person in Christian leadership were the parish
stories, you know, the stories of the people that
you meet along the way in parish ministry. Um, and
I think that you do a beautiful job of being
really honest and also joyful and loving about um,

(20:24):
those people and about those communities and not
just what you taught them, but what you learned
from them.

Thank you.

Um, I think people who are in the trenches right
now in parish ministry are just going to really
have a lot of points of connection to those
stories because they're beautiful and they're
funny and they're uh, poignant and they're a
little uncomfortable at times and their honesty,

(20:53):
you know, all the things. Right.

Thank you. Thank you for that. Because isn't that
really where the rubber hits the road? Like, even
though the last 10 years of my ministry, or less
than that, I was in constant conflict with my
bishop and that colored everything because, uh,
our bishop would, uh, not permit, um, same sex

(21:16):
blessings, let alone marriages. As the only urban
diocese in the country, and we were a downtown
church, lots of gay people, lots of people from
across the spectrum in our parish. So increasingly
it became, um, a difficult and in the end
untenable, uh, context within which to do the

(21:37):
ministry. But as you're saying the relationships
with the people, that's where, like, my. So
whatever conflict I had with the bishop in the end
did not matter when it came to my people. Except
actually when we began to lose some people who
said, I can't belong to a denomination that's this
backward. And it broke my heart. Right. Uh, but

(21:58):
otherwise, it's those relationships that you're
referring to. Those are the things that. Where
lives get changed. M. Yeah.

And if that's not where the rubber hits the road,
then, like, count me out, you know, like, if it
doesn't get embodied in real people's lives, if
it's just ideas and teachings, like correct.

Theology, correct practice, well, at some point,
nobody cares. Like, make it real or go home.

Yeah, make it real. And actually, like, we don't
have to make it real. Like, we just need to pay
attention. It is real. Like it's happening, you
know, just, like, pay attention. Um, yeah.
So when you look back over those 40 years in
ministry, what. What would you say was most life
giving about serving in church?

Well, certainly what you just identified, um, the
privilege of being allowed into people's lives.
That was number one. I just, even as a young
priest, I was inexperienced, didn't know what I
was doing. And because I was ordained, I was
playing a role. I got invited into people's lives,

(23:12):
into the. I mean, early on my second parish, I
buried a 14 year old who had died of leukemia. Uh,
and, um, I mean, it was beyond my own life
experience. And it just was a horrific experience.
At the same time, the privilege of journeying with
her, with Jennifer, and then with her parents in

(23:34):
the years that followed, I just remember, like,
who gets to do this? It was solemn, difficult
work, and it demanded something of me to show up,
uh, without being trite and without, like. So the
privilege of traveling with people has just been
enormous. And interestingly, a friend of mine

(23:55):
who's a deacon in the church here said to me a
little while ago, she said, brian, you haven't
left your ministry. You're still doing all the
things that you do. And it's true. I had to think,
yeah, I see a lot of people for coffee. And I
realized that that pastoral ministry has continued
under another umbrella where they're not seeing me
because I'm their priest. We're just tracking each

(24:17):
other. So that I have to say, and not just because
I went to an Anglo Catholic college. I loved the
liturgy. I loved that there was a communal ritual
that carried us through an experience. Um, and all
we had to do was prepare the Ground for it. I used

(24:39):
to say this to people when we were working on
liturgies together. I'd say our job is to create
the preconditions for an encounter with the holy,
with God. Our job is not to make that encounter
happen. We cannot make it happen. But if we do the
right preparation and then step out of the way and
everyone just do their job, just perform your job,

(25:01):
an encounter is possible. And, um, obviously I
feel myself getting impassioned about it. I still
believe it, that, um, a well done liturgy, a
ritual that connects with people's experience.
It's like, even as the priest, I wasn't running
it. I was part of it. I was swept along. And now,

(25:22):
as you know, there's parts you have to pay
attention to where you're working. Uh, I'd never
felt like worship in the same way as when I could
worship at some other church or when someone else
was presiding or preaching. But it did feel like
an enormous, uh, privilege. And I loved to preach.
You know, I like words. And there are. And

(25:44):
especially once I began storytelling rather than
lecturing. There's a chapter in the book about
that where I began recognizing, hey, Jesus never
gave a lecture in his life. He told stories. What
am I doing lecturing people about correct
theology? When that happened, preaching became a
whole lot more fun. And because sometimes there'd

(26:06):
be times in the middle of the sermon, I'd go off
and tell a story. Cause it really seemed that that
was a story that needed to be told, finish it, and
have no idea where I was in the sermon. And the
congregation grew to love it because they would
see the look on my face and I'd go, okay, I have
no idea where we are right now. And have to kind
of find our way back. So all of that deep

(26:28):
privilege, uh, and a lot of fun.

Yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that liturgy piece,
um, that certainly is the container as well that
you talk about. Like, that can be pretty vast. It
can be a pretty vast container.

Yes.

And I'm, you know, I'll have these moments when
I'm leading liturgy, and I, like, just little
things are not going well, and I'm feeling myself,
like, irritated or worried or whatever. And if I
can just stop and pray for a moment, like, please,

(27:08):
God, like, despite all of the stuff that isn't
quite going the way I want, can, like, just please
show up for people, you know, like, at least just
let people have an encounter. Um, and that's that
kind of getting out of the way piece that you have
to do on a Pretty regular basis because it's a
human offering. And that's right.

Our ego's attach to those roles and we want it to
go well. And that's. I remember though, in my
church in, uh, Oakville, we started doing the
offering, the laying out of hands during the
Eucharist. And um, because that was a parish that
had, uh. The Order of St. Luke was, uh, uh,
influential in its. In its, uh, culture. So we

(27:54):
started doing, uh, the laying on of hands. And we
did everything we could not to make it
Pentecostal. Like, we wanted it to be Anglican. So
we had, you know, a routine of how people indicate
they wanted the laying on of hands and they came
up to the altar and um. But I remember we went
through it and so we'd start. We started doing
that and I would often feel I'm doing my job. This

(28:16):
is my Sunday morning gig. And now I'm laying hands
on people. And I have these words that I say, and
I'm sincere in this moment. I feel nothing. I'm
just doing what we've offered to do. And I
remember this parishioner, this woman Cathie, who
came up to me afterwards and said, whoa. Like,
wasn't that incredible? Did you feel that? No. She

(28:38):
had had this incredible experience of opening that
was like opening her body up, opening everything
up. When I had done the laying on of hands, I felt
nothing. I was probably thinking, uh, okay, this
is going on too long. Oh, uh, how we can we clip
the end of the service a bit? Like, who knows
where my head was?

Yeah, yeah.

Truly, we just did it. And in doing it, something
was happening in spite of us. I always remember
that, like, it doesn't matter. It's not about me.

It's not about me.

If I do it.
Piece of ministry that, uh, is particularly
effective. Okay. I'm a functionary here, and I
just have to be open to the spirit. And I may or
may not. So I didn't get the buzz she got.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that that, uh. That's a
pretty constant thing that we have to keep track
of is, um, how this isn't ultimately about us.
A lot of our guests, a lot of our listeners are in
the thick of church leadership right now. And, um,

(29:40):
you know, we have a lot of conversations around
burnout and around kind, um, of the stresses of
ministry. You know, you named already, like, just
a lot of ongoing conflict with the institutional
church. But what, like, what would you say, or
would you say that there was anything in
particular about parish ministry that took a toll

(30:06):
along with all of those amazing things that are
certainly true too.

Well, some of this is very much on me. Um, if I'm
passionate about something. Like as I mentioned,
I've spent the whole summer trying to sell books.
It's been like I've missed opportunities to go
hiking, to do all sorts of other things. I'm in
this particular zone and I get pretty, um. Well,

(30:34):
it's not ocd, but it is sort of. I do get
compulsive, so. And I loved my work. So what took
the greatest toll on me, I think was a kind of,
um, burnout of I would work until I had nothing
left. And um, right when, when I was. It was
interesting when I was in your part of the world

(30:54):
and I was in Oakville once a month I learned to
take a, A, um, one day retreat overnight, one day,
full day retreat at the Sisters of the Church, who
had a convent at that point in Oakville. And it
was my attempt just to say every so often I have
to stop, I have to get off this train. So I found

(31:16):
that to be, um. And it makes me critical in. Much
like the old guy looking back, looking at a new
generation who are very concerned to get their
time off. And I remember the assistant curate who
wanted Christmas off because it would be the last
time that he would have Christmas, you know, with
his family thing. No, you should have thought of

(31:36):
that before you went into this line of work, pal.
Um, I don't understand because when I see clergy
being really, really protective of their personal
time, I get it, because I wasn't. At the same
time, it's like, this isn't a job. This isn't a 40
hour. This is like your life. And yes, you have to

(31:57):
put, you know, safeguards around your family time
and your personal time. Yes, all that. But anyway,
that, that in the end I was quite given to
exhaustion. And I could tell coming out of every
summer after my vacation, I'd, uh, get into
September at this time of year and I'd be grumpy
as hell because I had to gear up, I had to rev up

(32:20):
for a whole new season of programs and I just kind
of wanted to go back to bed, but apart. So that.
The other thing though was how much my conflict
with the bishop took out of me. I hate conflict.
And um, I just felt he was so wrong. And it was

(32:42):
entirely the wrong message for the church to be
giving, uh, the wider world that, um, that we see,
uh, same sex relationships as subpar and whatever.
I mean all the language he never used, but it was
all implied by his actions. And. And there were
six of us, six clergy who defied him and did a,

(33:04):
um, uh, an irregular, uh, wedding ceremony. And
technically, you could say it was of two women,
but one of them was trans. And so it got very
confusing. Who's getting married here? But it's
like I didn't care. And they had come to us
wanting a church wedding, so we gave it to them,
knowing what would happen. And it did. He called

(33:25):
us into his office and, uh, threatened that we do
that again, we're all going to be fired. That was
very stressful for me.

Oh, yeah.

I just. I hated that level. And. And it got. And
unfortunately, it got personal because I. I got so
angry that he was compromising my ability to do
the job I thought I was supposed to be doing. Um,
that I, uh, wrote him some pretty nasty letters,
and I hope he's burned them. I hope that those are

(33:54):
not in my file somewhere, because I couldn't find
a way to be charitable with someone who had power
over me in that way. M. That was very hard.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thank you for just being
candid about those different pieces, because I
think such an important part of this podcast is
to. To provide an honest space for people who are
wrestling with all of those ups and downs of
ministry on a daily basis. And, you know, whether

(34:27):
it's conflict in the parish or conflict within the
institution, there really is no way of, like,
standing for something without getting into the
crossfire here and there. And Jesus has quite a
few words about warning us about that reality. So,
um. But it does take its toll. It really does.

Yeah. And in the end, I think that is. I couldn't
have named it, but in the end, when I left, it
was. It wasn't like, I'm never going back to
church. It was not that. I just thought, let's
see, because I'd had that premonition, um, I write
about that in the book of an actual voice that,
you know, spoke to me, saying, um, when you're

(35:09):
done, you'll be gone. Or, you know, when you go,
you'll be done. Um, and so I. And realized, uh,
no, I really am done. So it had taken a toll
beyond just in the moment. It took a toll that I
didn't. I no longer wanted to be associated with
the institution, at least in this part of the
world. I think if I'd been in another diocese,

(35:31):
somewhere else, that could have affirmed the good
work I felt that we were doing in my parish. Or,
um, that may not have been true, but in this part
of the world. It was like, no, I really am done.
And that's a big cost.

Well, let's dig into that a little bit more. Um,
not just the toll, but where your ministry took
you. Because the other part that I really hear in
your book, um, isn't just about the toll. It's
about the journey. And by the time you got to the
end of 40 years, you were in a very different

(36:03):
place than when you started. Um, you articulate a
lot of curiosity that led you into a lot of
conversations with, uh, like a Wiccan high priest
and with spiritualists and, um, with thinking
about orbs and where the dead actually are and how

(36:28):
we communicate with them and all of those kinds of
things that took place within the context of
parish ministry.

What.

What did you kind of feel like was important in
those conversations that you were modeling as a
Christian leader? Because I don't feel like it was
as something outside of parish ministry that you
were doing. I feel like it was out of being a
Christian leader that you ended up in these
different places.

I so appreciate you saying that. Um, yeah, um, I
think my contention grew because of my natural
curiosity that, um, we don't have the whole story.
The church doesn't. We have our story, and that's
fair. We should tell our story, but we don't have

(37:20):
the whole story. And so in regards to communing
with the dead, um, the church, there's, uh, a. In
Leviticus, it says, you know, we shouldn't be
consorting with the spirits of the dead. And then
what happens? The very core of the Christian.
Christian story is the disciples consorting with a
dead man, Jesus. You know, it's sort of like if

(37:41):
they had been taken serious, taking seriously
Leviticus, they would have said, when Jesus
reappeared, we're not allowed to talk to you. So
it felt to me, by being so protective and in that
protectiveness, fearful of the edges of our
Christian experience, that, um, we were selling

(38:03):
the story short. I don't know that churches should
be having spiritualist meetings where they're
talking to dead people, but they shouldn't be
afraid of them.

Um, well, you know what? Let me just share a
little anecdote with you because I think this is
really relevant. Um, a colleague of mine did a
thesis for, I think, her Master of Theological
Studies, and she did it on, um, experiences that

(38:32):
people in our churches have had with those who
have died. So, like, encounters of some kind. And
she found in her research that, like, the vast
majority of people in our churches have had some
kind of encounter, like maybe 75% or something,

(38:52):
but they almost never talked to their parish
priest about it.

That's right, that's right.

But, but if you go digging, almost like three out
of four people have had an experience. Like, so,
yeah, like, why wouldn't we be talking about that?
Like, why wouldn't that, like of all places, a
faith community. Why wouldn't it be like, totally
important to talk about how you make sense of that

(39:20):
and what that means and how it feels and how it
gives hope and you know, all of those things?

Like, uh, because it is people's experience. If
you address it and acknowledge it, people will
love you for that. They'll say, I go to this great
church, you know, where they actually talk about
my experience as opposed to those 75% going, I go
to a really good church where I can't tell them
actually that I just, you know, had a visit with
my dead father. Um, also, you know, another one.

(39:51):
But I do think the church is moving in this
direction. Part of my post ministry explorations
has been around what I would call the area of
animism, where what does it mean that God is
invested in the creation, that God made, like
present in this creation. When I go on these wild
wanders, it is with the expectation that God is

(40:14):
going to show up. I don't use that language so
much anymore myself, but that's really what I'm
looking for, that God is in the natural world. And
if I am open, as open to that as I am to, uh, God
being present in other people and in rituals that
are important, um, what does God have to tell me

(40:35):
through the natural world? Now the church
traditionally has been very suspicious of that. I
mean they've given it a name, animism, um, of
something which is um, tantamount to um, ah,
heresy. Yet what is to prevent us from celebrating

(40:57):
the God who is in creation? We're not saying God
isn't in Jesus, isn't in the church, uh, but out
there on the edges, people are encountering the
divine in all sorts of ways. And if the church
isn't naming those, if the church isn't embracing
them, isn't even recognizing them, what relevance
does the church have to modern day seekers? Like

(41:19):
people are finding God without that language in
the natural world?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's not even just a question
of what it says about seekers or two seekers. Uh,
I think you've named this already. Like it is.
What are we saying about God? Like, are we really
like inviting people to know the God that they can
only know like on Sunday mornings in this

(41:44):
particular space. Like, is that. Is that the
invitation? Like, yeah, uh, it's. It's a pretty
limited invitation.

Well, Varian, we wonder why people aren't
attracted. Attracted to the Church and why you,
uh, probably found the same thing. Whenever clergy
end up, like, in murder mysteries, like, as a
character, they're either crazy or they're the one
who did it. Like, the world doesn't have any
positive images of clergy, it seems, which is, I

(42:16):
think, is sort of symptomatic of the modern world.
Doesn't know what to do with the church at all
because we don't seem to be part of the modern
world. So, um, there's something about embracing
the spiritual search of our age. It doesn't mean
not telling our story. And here's the thing I'd

(42:37):
want to say, um, the church should feel proud and
privileged, uh, uh, to tell its mythic story. It's
got a beautiful mythic story. A creator, right? A
creator who so loves what the Creator has made,
that is willing to suffer to bring in the

(42:59):
creation, um, to, uh, their fold. Like, there's
just this lovely sense of even Jesus, death on the
cross, if not understood as atonement, as having
to make up. Because we're all really bad, bad
children who need to be punished. So Jesus gets
punished for us, which I think is. Okay, that may

(43:19):
have worked in some generation that doesn't work
now. But as part of the mythic story, this is how
far the Creator was willing to go to bring us
back. Like, it's a beautiful story.
So if.

Well, it's a beautiful story, it's an honest
story. It talks about the things that actually
happen, like suffering and death actually happen.
Like, that is the human condition, right? So what
resources do we have for dealing with suffering
and death? Because it's gonna be on the table.

It's baked into the story so we can celebrate the
story that we have to tell. And when I say
celebrate, preach it, uh, uh, build our liturgies
around it. I think all of that's important. But
it's not then to say we've got the whole story.
No, we don't. This is our story. We want to tell

(44:12):
it. We want the world to know it. But it's not the
only thing going on. And therefore we can learn. I
mean, one of the things I've done since, uh, I've
started this great, um, safari, Spiritual safari,
was, uh, get to know the shaman, um, the
shamanistic traditions. I mean, I've met my spirit

(44:33):
guides and my power Animals like. I can't imagine
that happening in church. But as I've tried to
process, makes sense. It makes sense that in the
imaginal world we open ourselves to a world of
mystery. That in the church we think about angels,
but we don't want to get too literal about it.

(44:54):
Maybe we should, maybe we should get literal about
angels. Um, but there are experiences that if
we're able to acknowledge them, even if we don't
go there, even if we don't embrace them, um, will
help our people because it's naming something they
already know. So, um, I'm hesitating getting into
any great depth about shamanism. But I do have

(45:16):
theories about. Can I actually. Let me share and
then you can cut this out if you want. Here's what
I think. Um, in the Ignatian spiritual tradition,
um, often m, the imagination, uh, is engaged in
meditation, right? And so for instance, someone

(45:37):
meditating in that tradition would call to mind or
read a scene from the Gospels and they would
imagine in great detail all the sensory details.
What did it smell like? Was it hot? Was it cold?
Um, who were you? Were you a member of the crowd?
Were you one of the disciples? Were you Jesus? Um,

(45:57):
all the things to invest yourself with, your
imagination. You're playing and then when you
entered the story. And I used to do Ignatian
meditation as my own daily practice. Once you
start to enter a story, there's a point where you
let go and you're no longer making it happen.
There is something happening in that meditation

(46:18):
that you didn't plan. Somebody turns and says
something to someone else. Someone does something.
Where did that come from if not from the depths
where we might say inspired by the presence of God
within. What I discovered about shamanism, it's
the same thing. It's so the shaman beats a drum

(46:40):
and it's meant it's at a very fast, uh, pace. Um,
it all helps to change the brain waves. But
ultimately it's all about opening to that imaginal
participation in the universe where I'm going to
just let my imagination carry me. That is frowned
upon in the modern age, in the scientific age. And

(47:02):
yet I think all primitive, so called primitive
peoples, um, used their imagination all the time
and found there was always a point where something
was breaking through that you didn't plan. This
isn't your thought, this isn't your idea. And when
that happens, there's the gift. You don't try to
go back and analyze it. You take the gift. Because

(47:24):
like a dream, I, uh, now am going to Live into
this somehow. And I had tons of experiences like
that that I thought, how would you cultivate that
in church? And maybe that's with silence, maybe
that's with meditation in church. Maybe that's
with. Remember we brought a big meditation bowl
into our worship, but we never capitalized on,

(47:46):
like, we would ring it just before we started the
proclamation of the words. So we're all kind of.
But I thought you could have a three minute sit
after the sermon where nothing happens. So people
are following their imagination. I know that
that's. You know what I mean? There's those things
which we have put pushed to the edges as being way
too out there for Christians. They're not. They're

(48:08):
part of tradition too.

Yeah. They're not, uh, it's not, um, without a lot
of common ground as you're naming. Yeah. Okay.
Well, far be it for me to, uh, tell you what the
thesis of your book is, but as I was reading your
book, I came to page 49 and I just want to read,

(48:33):
uh, this quotation because it, for me,
encapsulated a lot about what you were trying to
say. Um, so you're in a pastoral conversation with
someone who has had some faith experiences. I
think in a more charismatic tradition.

He was being wooed by the Mormons.

The Mormons, okay.

Yes.

Uh, and so you were kind of just inviting him to
reflect on what he may or may not be experiencing
there. And you say, I think we have to ask
ourselves at any given crossroads, which way will
make our lives larger rather than smaller? God has
a big plan for us that demands all the openness we

(49:17):
can muster. If a particular way is going to
restrict us, to make us smaller than we are, or
asks us to be closed rather than open, we have to
ask if that's really where our soul wants to go.
Do we want to live large or live small? So to me,
that was like, kind of how I would define the

(49:41):
book. Um, what do you think it looks like to live
large rather than small?

Uh, by the way, I think that was, um, very astute
of you to pick that out. Because as you read it, I
go, yeah, M. Yeah, that was really the core
somewhere in there. Um, I think there's something,
uh, almost very biblical about it. Every time an
angel appears in the Bible, they say, do not fear.
Don't be afraid. There's nothing. There's nothing

(50:11):
to fear here. And therefore we can live large
because God is out at the edges. God is beyond the
edges. God is in the hinterlands. God is at the
Core, like, this is not a God who can be easily
circumscribed in any way. So living large is
wherever you are, being open to the presence of

(50:33):
God there. And then when the circumstances change,
be open to the presence of God. Oh, over here,
too. On my own podcast, I invited, uh, three
people to come and talk. My intention was all of
them have had experience with darkness in their
practice. So one was the shaman, Wade the shaman.

(50:55):
One was a spiritualist who communes with dead
people, and one was a Reiki master. All of them I
knew from personal conversations had had
experience with the dark side. Right. And I
thought, well, at some point we should have a
conversation about that. So I brought them all
together in my little studio and, um, asked them
probing questions. None of them were interested in

(51:20):
talking about the dark side. What came out was,
yeah, we know it's there, but you don't go there.
We're not doing this work we're doing for the dark
side. A person can get all messed up and lost if
that's where they want to go. So they almost. I
don't know how conscious they were of this, but
it's like they didn't know each other until they
were talking. But there's like, a pact of, yeah,

(51:40):
we're not going to talk about the dark side.
Because they were all given to the light, to their
practices being about healing, about restoration,
about health and wholeness. So I think there's an
attitude in that that, uh, says they weren't
afraid of the darkness. And the stories they had
told me, other than that, I knew that in each case

(52:02):
it was like, well, this has no power here. Because
they were so invested in the light. If we're
really people of faith, then we have nothing to
fear and we can move out to the expansive places
where otherwise the church might go. I'm not sure
you should go there. You know, what if it's going
haywire? If things are turning dark, you'll know

(52:24):
it. So there's something about being fearless, if
that's the. I'm just riffing on this, but, ah,
that feels right to me. That.

Yeah. I mean, a word that I find I use a lot in my
sermons is courageous.

Yes.

I do think that there's a lot about being called
to courage. And if we think again about those,
like, basic human realities of suffering and
death, I think a lot of what we're doing is
equipping people to be courageous.

That is so true.

In the face of, like, what life will throw at us.

Yeah. And what death will throw at us. Like, to be
able to. To think of someone who's lived a
faithful life, whose faith has given them the gift
of courage in the face of death, on their
deathbed, not out of their skin with worry and
anxiety. But wow, this is going to be a really
cool journey. Wow. Um, what's the other side going

(53:24):
to be like? As much as I may be sad about leaving
my loved ones and all that like this, I've spent
my whole life preparing to go through this portal.
Like, wouldn't that be a. I'm getting chills
actually, just talking about that. I think you're
right.

Yeah. And I mean, we do get to witness that. Uh,
right. Like we do get to witness people who die
beautifully and not without suffering, but who die
with curiosity and gratitude and trust and all of
those things. Like, uh, it's quite inspiring.

It variants. And as clergy, we have been
privileged, right, to be at the bedside and to see
that and go, oh man. As sad as I will be when I
breathe my last breath, because I quite love this
life and I'm loving it in retirement in this

(54:22):
particular phase, uh, this is a marvelous. As sad
as I'll be, I also hope I'll be excited about
what's coming next.

Yeah, truly. Truly.
Um, okay. I feel like you've kind of answered this
already, but I do want to just circle back to what
your relationship is with the church now and how
you kind of see it in your spiritual life now, or

(54:54):
if you do.

Yeah, yeah. So it's no longer part of my spiritual
practice, but I, um, know without a doubt it's in
my bones.

Mhm.

Which is why I say, you know, I can imagine I've
said that to my wife. I've said, you know, if I go
before you, in spite of being out here in the
hinterlands, I want a good old Anglican funeral.
That's me. I mean, that's where, um. And um, as
much as I try not to pay attention to gossip and

(55:28):
what's happening in the church, in my own parish
and in the diocese since I've left, uh, I'm still
capable of being hurt by hearing of things
happening. It hurts my heart. And I think, no, no,
no, you don't have, don't close down in terms of.
Think the church as it gets smaller and it gets
fearful and it circles the wagons and it's all

(55:51):
about, as we said, defending the faith. No. Um, so
I know that at some spiritual level, I will always
be a part of the church. Um, um, but it's not so
much Um, I haven't found a way to make that work,
um, of, uh, being a part of a church. I would want

(56:11):
to go back and be a part of my own church. Right.
The people I know so well. And, you know, that's
bad form for a priest to hang out. And I don't
think always it's very welcomed by the newer
clergy who follow you.

Yeah, I mean, I have really, like, a different
opinion about that because I have been so lucky in
my church ministries to have my predecessors
continue to hang around and just be extremely
wonderful, um, parts of the community. So I know

(56:46):
that's not everybody's experience, but I. I don't
know, I. I feel like a lot of the. The boundaries
that we've put up around, like, friendships having
to come to a close.

Yeah. Crazy.

The minute that you like.

Yeah. Yeah.

It just doesn't seem to bear out with reality.
But. But again, like, I'm speaking from a
particular context of having really great
predecessors in all of my churches.

There's something very organic about that. There's
something natural. But the elders still stay with
us. They're not leading anymore, except by a
certain example.

Oh, like, it's been so good for me. I've loved it,
but, you know, I know it can be toxic too.

Yeah.

Um, oh, and the other thing I just wanted to note,
um, is I do feel like you've taken the church with
you to where you are now too. You know, like that
maybe you're not attending a church, but it just

(57:55):
like everything that we've talked about today,
everything that's in your book, like it is still
with you in a big way.

Yeah. Thank you. I think so too. Yeah.

So, um, what do you hope that a reader, and
especially those serving in Christian ministry
now, what do you hope they might take away from
your book Talking to Trees?

I think, um, one. I hope that it would be read as
an invitation and going back to, uh, what you read
from the book. An invitation to live your faith
large. Um, and an invitation by way of the
storytelling that I, ah, really do think that, um,
the power of storytelling is I may be telling you

(58:41):
a story, and halfway through the telling of my
story, you're already going. Yeah, like that
happened to me once. Like it evokes a story that
we are landing on something that feels true, that
there's, uh. It's profound and it's not like we
both believe the same thing. We both have the same

(59:02):
experience. So the invitation is by way of hearing
the stories, not for their own sake, as if my Life
is any more interesting than anyone else's, but
hearing the stories, for the stories that get
evoked within the reader. And I mean, I was saying
to someone, thinking, uh, of having this
conversation, I said, you know, I think the whole

(59:25):
purpose of writing the book, I'm realizing, wasn't
about the book. It was about the conversations
that can come out of the book, the storytelling
that can happen. Uh, and I will be part of some of
those conversations. Most of them I won't be. I
would love that if someone could read the book and
feel invited to go, yeah, there's something here

(59:46):
that I had a similar experience. And down they're
going that road, acknowledging and even
celebrating their own spiritual journey in all its
uniqueness. It may or may not fit into the church,
but. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I think that that is going to happen
for people reading the book because, um, there's a
lot that's relatable, but there's also a lot that
is, you know, your unique, um, person of Brian
Pearson, and, uh, your particular viewpoint and

(01:00:19):
way of seeing the world. And I think that
particularity invites other people to be more
particular themselves, too. So it's like the
universal and the specific.

>> Brian E. Pearson (01:00:32):
I love it. And that's a whole conversation of its
own. But you know what? Uh, Joseph Campbell, who
used to write about, uh, follow, uh your bliss, he
was the mythologist who was trying to summarize
the world myths. He says, really, it's all about
following your bliss. Before he came up with that,
um, he told, uh, his friend Thomas Moore, he said

(01:00:54):
he was talking about follow your weird W, Y R D.
It's an old English word that means fate. Follow
your fate. But I love it even better. Like, he
should have said, follow your weird, because if
each of us is going on our own path, we're going
to be weird. We're going to be like John the
Baptist, a little eccentric. That's the way we're
meant to be.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:15):
Yeah, there's a great Rachel, uh, Held Evans quote
where she says, like, I don't want the church to
be more hip. I want the church to be more weird.

Like, you see? That's it. That's exactly right.

Like, yeah, just lean in. Lean into the weird.
Okay, well, let's take a quick break, and then
we'll come back with some closing questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast, and
I continue to be here with Brian Pearson. And, uh,

(01:01:49):
we are going to wrap up with our usual closing
questions. Now, Brian, we always tell our guests
that, uh, you can take these questions seriously
or not, um, it's up to you the degree of
seriousness that you apply to your answers, but
here they are.

Okay.

Okay, Brian, if you were Pope for a day, what
would fill out those 24 hours?

I'd set the captives free.

Do you want to elaborate there on the whole
church?

I'd say, folks, do what you want. Um, have a good
time, go out there and explore, and, um, see you
tomorrow. And tomorrow, you know, we'll get back
to usual. But today, do what you want to do. Set
the Christian captives free for a day.

All right. That is a very on brand answer, Brian.
Okay. What theological or historical, Christian or
otherwise figure would you want to meet or bring
back to life?

Well, ever since reading in, uh, John Philip
Newell's book, uh, Sacred Earth, Sacred Soul,
about Pelagius, I'm going now. Pelagius, who was
given a terrible, terrible ride by the
Mediterranean church in the 4th and 5th centuries.

Yeah, like he has a heresy named after him,
doesn't he?

Exactly. And we think we know nothing about him,
but John Philip Newell dug into it and what a cool
dude. He was a Welsh monk who had a bad haircut.
Um, and when he went to Rome to not confront, but
to be with the Mediterranean Church, they saw this

(01:03:35):
hick. He had what was essentially a Druid haircut,
and it was sort of in style. About 10 years ago,
young guys would have the sides and backs of their
hair cut right down to their scalp, and then it
belong on top. It wasn't the monkish, uh, um,
tonsure of the Mediterranean Church, but he was

(01:03:56):
earth based in his theology. He was blessing based
in his understanding of creation. It's not about
sin. It's about, we were put on Earth as a
blessing. And the whole Christian message is to
draw us back to be that blessing. Nothing wrong
with that. He consorted. Can you believe this? He
consorted with women in his company. He allowed

(01:04:19):
them to read sacred texts. I know Jerome. That's
what Jerome, um, focused on, uh, to dis. Pelagius
is. And he hangs with women and lets them read the
texts. So I think Pelagius needs a second chance.
I think I would love to go back and meet him and

(01:04:39):
go and sit at his feet and go, you know, dude,
they don't get you.

All right, well, you're winning me over to
Pelagius. And also, I like when our guests have an
answer that we haven't heard before. So you're
winning on two friends there.
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?

Ooh. Um, I think this is the end of civilization
as we know it. I m. Really do. I think this is
Margaret, um, Wheatley, uh, writes about this, uh,
and has spoken about it. Um, this isn't a pendulum
swing. This is the end of Western civilization as
we know it. So buck up, folks. She's saying, um,

(01:05:23):
it's time to show up, uh, for who you are and to
offer your gifts to the world. Now's the time.
Because we're not going back to any of the
stability we've not. I mean that's a very dark
response. But ever since I read her saying that,
heard her saying it actually, um, I'm going.
You're right, you're right. Okay. We're going to

(01:05:43):
remember this as the death of civilizations. We
knew it. Great potential for something new to be
born. But the old is done. Yeah.

Well, and that. Do not be afraid, message more
relevant than ever. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity at the end of civilization?

I still think the gathering of people around the
Christian, what I call the mythic story, the
Christian mythic story is a beautiful, life and
world transforming thing. Like when Christians can
continue to gather, I have to say, with or without
the consent of bishops, with or without correct

(01:06:24):
theology, uh, like all of the things that we do to
so limit ourselves. The gathering of people around
this mythic story that is focused on Jesus has
some specific rituals that engage us, I think is a
beautiful thing. And I would hope that that
survives even when the institutional church
doesn't. Even when people have to sell off their

(01:06:46):
beautiful old buildings thinking this is the end.
This isn't the end. Are you kidding? You get a
chance to be the church in a way you never could
before. Meeting in a high school gymnasium on a
Sunday morning. Anyway. Yeah, something like that.
Yeah.

So lots of hopes for, ah, the future of the
church.
Okay. And uh, this last question is really
important because you have a lot that you're doing
and exploring and writing and talking about. So
where can people find out more about you, Brian?

So my website is my name with my middle initial,
which is Brian E. Pearson. And on there you can
find about my podcast, which is called the Mystic
Cave, which is actually talking about all the
stuff we've been talking about. It's gonna change
its focus in this season coming up. Do you know
who's gonna be my first guest? I don't know if
you'll know who this is. Some of your people won't

(01:07:38):
know. Uh, Jane Sibery from the 80s and 90s, who
was the most Unique person. She.

Life is a red wagon.

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm focusing on, um, kind of the soulful questions
of what does it mean to be human in the modern
age? And trying to do it without theological
jargon. Anyway, so my podcast is listed on there,
my blog. People can sign up for my blog. And of
course, I have a page, uh, dedicated to the book
which people can. You know, people can buy it on

(01:08:10):
Amazon and all those places, but I'm sure not a
fan of Amazon. Not just because I only get, like a
$20 for a book sold on Amazon, but if people want
to buy a book, they can do that through my
website, and I'll send it to them signed or with
a, uh, you know, dedication, whatever they want,
and do that before September 30th. Somebody said

(01:08:31):
the E in your middle name does that stand for
entrepreneur? Because somebody said you should
have a draw. You should have a contest to help
sell your book. I think it's a very stupid idea,
but I do. I'm doing a draw. So if you buy a book
from me before September 30th, well, if you live
in Southern Alberta, I'll come to your home and do
a house concert, or I'll meet with your book club

(01:08:53):
and we'll talk about the themes of the book, or we
will have an extended conversation about your own
spiritual journey. Those are the first, second,
and third prizes, but only till September 30, and
then the deal's off the table.

Brian Entrepreneur Pearson, it is CA and the book
is Talking to A Journey into Seoul. I highly
recommend it. Thank you so much for our
conversation today, Brian. And, uh, thank you for
all of the wisdom and humor and honesty that.

(01:09:27):
That, uh, you bring to your reflections.

Thank you, Martha. And I love the show. I love
that you're pushing out at the boundaries, man. If
nobody's doing that, the church is dead for sure.
Anyway, thank you.

Yeah, if you're not busy being born, you're busy
dying.

Amen.

Bob Dylan. Okay, well, we always, uh, end not with
Bob Dylan, but with a word of peace. So, um,
Brian, may God's peace be with you.

M. Thank you. And also with you.

>> Loren (01:10:02):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do

(01:10:24):
us a favor. Subscribe to the pod to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.

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