From Institution to Innovation: Cathie Caimano on the Future of Church

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Cathie Caimano (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Cathie
Kaimano. Father Cathie is an Episcopal Priest
ordained for 25 years. Since 2016, she has been a
free range priest doing her own ministry business
with a mission to help help reimagine ministry in

(01:05):
the 21st century. She serves a small congregation
in a, ah, cage free way and writes coaches,
teaches and consults about practical ways of being
and doing church in sustainable, faithful, joyful
ways. Cathie lives near Charlotte with her
wonderful husband and adorable Great Dane. When

(01:25):
she's not thinking about God and church, you can
find her taking photos of the sunrise or out
running somewhere. A, uh, reminder before we start
today's podcast, please take a moment to subscribe
to the podcast, leave a review and share Future
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us

(01:47):
an email@laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
questions or ideas for future episodes. Your
support means a lot in making this podcast
possible.

>> Loren (02:09):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased
to be welcoming Father Cathie Caimano Hello and
welcome to the show.

Hi. Well, glad to be here.

>> Loren (02:21):
Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation.
So why don't you, uh, we're just talking a little
bit offline about working out and fitness and, you
know, say I sometimes ask folks anything fun you
want to say about yourself. So you and your
husband are big into outdoor adventure? It sounds
like.

Yes. Well, that's so funny because I'm definitely
not a nature girl, although I do go outside
because I do a lot of running. Yes, My husband's a
big triathlete and I am a, I am a competitive age
group runner. Now I'm, I'm about to turn 59, so
I'm getting ready to be a fast old lady, I like to
say. So I spend a lot of time running and um, that
really does hook back into my spirituality and
into my vocation. But we do together that I think

(03:03):
that's probably our, the biggest thing in our
lives besides our work and our faith and our
family. And our dog is, um, running and he does
triathlete. So. Yeah, we're big sports people in
that way.

>> Loren (03:13):
I remember when my, when I was a kid, my dad would
always be like, telling me to pay attention to
those age brackets. But, you know, you get into
this extent where it kind of works against you and
then I guess it works for you again, I suppose.

Yeah, it's really great. Like, um, oh, don't even
get me started on my running. And we'll never talk
about anything else. But, um. But that is one of
the good things about older is that sudden, like,
a lot of people sort of drop out when you're in
your mid-30s to mid-40s. I mean, you're there with
every. You live in Colorado, I live in North
Carolina. Those are both places that are packed
full of athletes. And, you know, everybody's
better than you. I mean, everybody just is because

(03:47):
there's so many people doing it. But once you get
into your 50s, and now I'm pushing 60, you know, a
lot of people don't do that anymore, or they've
just quit or they've gotten injured or they've
done other things. And so the people who are into
it are into it. And it's, it's a much more
competitive. But it's also smaller, so you get to
be a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

>> Loren (04:05):
Good to look forward too.
Uh, share about your faith journey, what that
looked like in the past and what that looks like
today.

All Ah, right. Okay. I'll try to get this really
short, but, um, I was raised Roman Catholic. I am
an Episcopal priest now. Um, I have been an
episcopal priest for 25 years. And I was thinking
about this. Um, there's so much to say. But I will
say that I always just had a relationship with
God. Right? So I was fortunate enough to go to

(04:33):
Georgetown University, uh, back in the day when
somebody like me could get into Georgetown
University. And, um, it was a Jesuit university
and I was Roman Catholic. I didn't go there
because it was Catholic school. Um, but it just
turned out to be this great thing. And every, at
that time, every incoming freshman had to take a
class called the Problem of God. And I just love

(04:54):
that. I mean, the theory is that in order to be a
well educated person, you have to grapple with God
at some point, right? Whether you believe God
exists or not, whether you follow a particular
faith or not. And it was fast, it was fascinating
and fabulous. And you Read all these books from
people who are like stark atheists all the way to
people who are completely devoted followers of
different faiths. And then you had to like,

(05:16):
basically write a paper and say, like, where are
you in all of this? And people really got into it.
And I just, I remember that because in the end it
was just like, I just know God, right? Like from a
small age, I talked to God, God talked to me. I've
always felt God's presence. I've always felt like
I could sort of discern where God was and could
feel God. And so I was like, this is beautiful and

(05:39):
wonderful. Sort of doing the intellectual stuff.
And I just know that God's with me. Like, that's
just kind of been my journey, right? And sort of
becoming more comfortable with that and becoming
more comfortable sort of talking about that
without sounding like a complete weirdo, you know,
and obviously living into it. You know, I, I got,
I had a real true calling experience when I, at

(06:02):
the end of college, I did the, uh, Ignatian
exercises. So I did a five day silent retreat on
the spring break of my senior year. I'm like, you
know, everybody else in the world is like out
summer partying for five days straight. And I am
like in a convent in Western Pennsylvania, not,
not speaking for five days. And, um, I heard, I
mean, I heard God. I heard Jesus say Jesus in

(06:23):
remembrance of me. I just heard Jesus voice and I
felt Jesus presence. And I knew I was called to be
a priest. And then I thought, well, that's really
funny because I'm a girl and I'm 22 and I'm a
Roman Catholic. So, you know, I just kind of went
on with my Life and then 10, you know, just.
That's a very long story. But the door started to
come open to me. I discovered the Episcopal Church
once I moved to North Carolina. I just, just drawn

(06:45):
to it. I was not thinking about getting ordained.
But then there I was and then things started to
happen and then I just walked through that door
and here I am.

>> Loren (06:53):
Yeah, we were talking about this a little bit
again before we started recording. And I want you
to talk more about it here just for our listeners,
because I think it's a real interesting. You've,
as listeners, heard you have the title Father
Cathie

Yes.

>> Loren (07:07):
Talk about how you chose to, uh, accept and retain
that title.

Well, you know, this is gonna make me sound like
the church geek that I am, but like your senior
year of seminary and the Episcopal Church and
senior year of seminary, everybody's getting ready
to launch out into the world. And most people are
on the ordination track. And so you have this like
conversation of like what you're going to go by,
what type. You know, this is like what, what
people and young people who are about to be
formed, you know, care about. And um, you know, it

(07:35):
just struck me at the time that like all the men
were just automatically going to be Father Bill or
Father Jones or whatever. Some of them in the
south might have been like Mr. So and so if
they're in the low church tradition, but really it
went without saying that they were going to be
fathers. And so then the women were having all
these like strangled conversations about like
what? Like I'll just be Cathie or I'll just be
Beth or maybe I'll just be Reverend. And you know,

(07:56):
and I was like that, why should I have to worry
about that, right? To me, Father in our tradition
is the title of a priest and I am a priest, right?
And so to me it's like that, like to me that's a
no brainer. Um, and I said to you earlier, and
I'll say it again, like I don't think of myself as
a woman priest, right? And I think of Father as a
title for a priest. And it doesn't, it's not

(08:18):
really about gender at all. It's about what we
were talking about like fatherly qualities. And so
I think it's about, you know, God's, you know,
care about and you know, it's about protection and
leadership and those sorts of things. And not that
women can't do those things but like things that
are thought of as typically fatherly, if you will,
which I think women can do, right? Just like men

(08:38):
can. But so anyway, to not get into the gender
thing and uh, some women in my tradition go by
mother and that's totally fine. Although I will
also say a lot of people, more and more,
especially women, but also men are like, well, I
don't want a title. I don't want, I'm m just going
to call myself, you know, Joe, just call. But you
know, to me that is also kind of scary because um,
to me that's about authority and my priesthood is

(09:00):
not about my own authority. Like I would be way
too scared to do what I do. It's not the Church of
Cathy, right? It's not as I don't not, it's not on
my own authority that I am a priest. I am formed
and held up and sealed by the Holy Spirit and
ordained into this tradition. So I do this by the
authority of the Church that is vested in me. And
so therefore, to me, that title is very, very

(09:20):
important. Because it's not me. Right. It is the
church that has vested this in me and the Holy
Spirit that has vested this in me. And if I didn't
believe that, there's no way I do the things that
I do. And it would be very deforming, if you will,
I think, uh, for myself, and I'm gathering, you
know, for the people who would follow me.

>> Loren (09:39):
Yeah, that's a really interesting observation you
make about that title representing your ecclesial
authority, not just for your, you know, of your
own authority or even of your individual church
authority, but of, you know, of the traditions
authority of this big group of believers.

Uh, yeah. And we believe the Holy Spirit. Right.
Like, you can't take it away. Like, I could. My
bishop could keep me from serving as a priest. But
we believe that ordination is. You don't take it
back. It's like baptism. It changes you, and you
are a priest forever. And so it is literally part
of my being now.

>> Loren (10:14):
Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Loren (10:15):
That's cool to hear.
Uh, share, if you would, about anything you want
to share about spiritual practices or disciplines
that are helpful for you.

Well, that's really funny, and we'll probably talk
about this later in the conversation, but I
recently started this thing called a gym for your
soul. Um, and so it's basically like going back to
ancient Christian practices. And so what did it
mean for the first Christians to be Christian?
Right. And so before there were denominations, you
know, all the stuff. Right. And also to think

(10:45):
about it like a gym, like, um, not intellectual,
not how to not in, not what do we believe, but the
actual activities, the actual what do you do in
your life that makes you a Christian? And so one
of the things we're working on right now, so I'm
kind of doing the basic workouts, and the first
one is prayer, right? But it is repetitive prayer.

(11:05):
So it is using the ancient prayers, like the Jesus
prayer, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy
on me, a sinner, the Lord's prayer, the Hail Mary,
you know, the short snippets of the various
psalms, and repeating them over and over and over
again. And of course, that's how rosaries came to
be and prayer beads came to be because the
monastics used them to count their prayers, right?

(11:26):
Then they would pray a hundred times a day or 25
times a day or whatever. So. So that is the thing
that I've been doing lately is like, I'm counting
on my fingers. I sometimes Use my prayer beads.
But I say my Jesus prayer ten times every morning.
I say my, uh, Our Father when I'm doing my
exercises, when I'm doing, like, you know, so to
the. Really getting into the repetitive prayers,
um, as a way, as, you know, to just, like, it's a

(11:48):
calming thing, it's a focus thing, but also it's
a. To just sort of carry that prayer with me all
the time in all the various parts of my life.

>> Loren (11:56):
Yeah. I think it's so interesting that you. Trexo.
Right. Like, I'll tease it here because I've.

Yeah. Well, and I. And I pronounce it traco. It's
really. It has an X in the middle, but I take. I
use a lot of the old Greek words, and so I'm using
the. The. The chi as the chi. Rho. So. So, yes, I.
We. I. We pronounce, uh, it traco.

>> Loren (12:16):
Okay. My.

Even though it is an ax. Yeah, no worries, Rusty.
No worries. It's okay.

>> Loren (12:25):
Um, but I'm reminded, you know, we just both
talked about working out and enjoying to be
active. And, like, I'm thinking about, like,
Thursday was leg day, and, like, you know, I do
those 10 reps or 12 reps of three sets or
whatever, which is very repetitive and
ritualistic. And I grew up certainly in a
tradition that was antagonistic, uh, uh, maybe at

(12:50):
worst, but certainly suspicious of ritual and
repetitive nature. But, like, we wouldn't say that
about, like, working out. Like, we'd say, like,
hey, this is the. This is the. This is the reps I
need to do to get fit. I'm thinking about, like,
my wife and I just celebrated 21 years of marriage
and, like, how much work it is to maintain.

Congratulations.

>> Loren (13:13):
Yeah, thank you. And, like, what is it, do you
think? I suppose we're getting off track here a
little bit. But I just. I'm struck by, like, how
much. How much a relationship, God really, like,
takes intentionality. And there seems to be this
assumption that, like, it'll either come or it

(13:34):
won't come, and if it. If it doesn't get, like, it
should just come to you. Does that make sense?

Right, right, right. And. And that is sort of one
of the reasons why that I started this whole thing
about a gym for, like, especially because I, like,
I just described. I'm somebody who. I feel like I
have this sort of, like, spiritual pathway that I
find it's very easy for me to access. And first of
all, I don't think everybody has that right. I
don't. And, you know, Again, it's an intellectual

(14:00):
argument, like, do we all have it? And then some
of it, some of us have it more. We. We exercise it
more. Right. Or are, ah, some people just not
built that way or, you know, blah, blah, blah,
blah. But then I also think, yeah, it goes back
to, I think, what's that praise. We are what we
habitually do. Right. And so I would never say

(14:22):
that, like, they're repetitive saying that Jesus
prayer ten times every morning for me is gonna
replace the times when I'm just alone with God and
I talk with God, or the silence or the
contemplative prayer or the worship. None of that,
but just like you just said. But you know, as a
runner, and this is part of how I sort of develop
this, is that, yeah, I hate planks, and I still do

(14:43):
them, um, you know, like five times a week, you
know, because supposedly that's better for my core
and supposedly it's gonna help me be a better
runner. Right. So I just do that. So. So it's. It
is, I think, the building blocks. And I do really
believe in that whole sense of, like, stretching
and strengthening our souls, the intentionality of
putting ourselves in those places. So, you know,
so maybe, you know, maybe. I mean, hopefully it's

(15:04):
bringing us closer to God. And I like to think
it's like opening that portal, whatever that
spiritual portal is, it. It makes us feel that.
And just like when you are running or cycling,
sometimes you feel this ethereal, like you are so
connected to everything and everything is clicking
into place. And part of that, it's not. It's not.
It's not math. Right. It's not exactly that thing.

(15:24):
It's alchemy. And. And so I think it's the same
with our, uh, connection with God, is that, you
know, we. We do enough wraps, right. And we're
putting ourselves in that place, and somehow it is
that alchemy where, when. When that portal opens
up, then there we are. Right?

>> Loren (15:40):
Right. Because we certainly want. Wouldn't want to
get into this thing of, like, we can command God's
presence like through, you know, five priors or
whatever.

Right, Right. It's not magic. Yeah.

>> Loren (15:52):
I mean, it's frustrating, I suppose, but I think,
uh, if it was the other way, then we'd have whole
other issues.

Right.

>> Loren (16:00):
I mean, I appreciate. I really appreciate the
intentionality around this.

Thank you.
And I'm gonna say one more thing before I make
you. I'll let you go back. We go about your
marriage because. And I'm gonna say relationship
is one of the things one of the practices in the
trip. But I will also say that my. I've only been
married for 10 years, even though I'm older than
you. But, um, people always say marriages work.
And I get very upset about that. Cause I just kind
of feel like work sounds like drudgery. And I
don't think marriage is drudgery. But to me,

(16:26):
marriage is practice, right? Oh yeah.

>> Loren (16:29):
Marriage is practice.

Right. You show up every day. It is. In some ways
it is your routine and your ro. But that's the
good news. It is the basics of uh. Like you are
there for the things that your marriage needs.
Right. And so. And also to me, there's way more
joy in that. Right? So that's fun, right? Like,

(16:51):
you know, it's not always fun. But um, just like
your face life, just like your spirit, your
activities, your relationships are practice,
right?

>> Loren (17:01):
Yeah, I think that's. I like that metaphor. I
think that's great. I was reading something. I was
just reading something at lunch about this three
hour practice. Uh, that some relationships are
trying of three hours at night. Like it's meant
for like parents after the kids go to bed, which
frankly I don't stay up two hours past my kids go

(17:23):
to bed. But I can cram it into two hours like if
you really wanted to. But it's like an hour of
working together to clean up the house and do
chores. An hour of like uninterrupted, just you
and them time. And then an hour for yourselves
each alone to kind of recharge yourselves. So even
if it was like 45 minutes each, I suppose, like,

(17:45):
wow, that could be. Again, it's that practice.
That practice, like you said.
Well, I suppose we're already doing it like we
worried we might do is getting off topic.

So that's okay. Maybe this is the topic. Maybe
this is where we're. This is good topics.

>> Loren (18:01):
This is good topics. But uh, Cathie I had her on
because first just I appreciate what she shares on
substack and social channels where I follow her on
about the institution of church and changes that
are coming or might need to come or how the church
is navigating disruption in our current time. And

(18:23):
I think what first kind of what I first found
appealing or intriguing, I should say is your
title of your subset, pre range priest. So maybe
let's start with that kind of what that means to
you, how you came about that and what that looks
like. And I think that'll lead us into some
further conversation.

Thank you. So I was ordained in the year 2000 so,
um, right on the cusp of the 20th, literally
January of 2000, so the cusp of the 21st century.
And I was basically, uh, formed as an old school
priest in the old school system. Right. Like when
I went through seminary and the formation of
becoming a priest, I never thought that I would do

(19:05):
anything but go from one congregation to another,
serving in a very traditional way by meaning the
priest is in charge and you have, you know, a
staff and a building and a set of programs and you
have stewardship and, you know, you do good work
and you have Sunday worship. And that's wonderful.
And he in practice, you know, once I started doing

(19:26):
that and I served three congregations, um, I was
like. And I did the thing I always say, like, this
just came out. It was an accident, but I actually
did have like the career trajectory thing. Right.
So I was a baby priest at a big church in New York
City, and then I was the associate priest at a
medium sized church in North Carolina. Then I went

(19:46):
off to become a rector in Kansas, uh, in Wichita,
Kansas. And I like to say I was the worst rector
ever. And the reason was that it was by then that
I started to sort of come up against, like, how
much I hated it. Like, I love ministry, I love
God, I love prayer and worship. I hated being a

(20:09):
rector, and I was bad at it because I knew all the
answers and I was going to tell all those people
how they, they could fix everything. And you might
guess how that went over with that congregation.
And we've come a long way and like, you know, um,
I love those people, but still we had a hard time
and there was other things going on. But the point
is, I came up against, like, what am I doing here?
Like, why is it my job to uphold this institution?

(20:32):
And incidentally, things don't work the way that
they're supposed to. Right. So stewardship doesn't
really bring in enough money to pay the bills.
Right. So they're constantly under money stress
and there's not. And people aren't interested in
committees and they're not really all that
interested in Sunday school. And they want to come
to worship, but they want it to be a very specific
way. And people leave because they're mad and, you

(20:52):
know, we don't really get new members and all the
things. Things, right. And then it becomes like
meetings and meetings and meetings and you're
working every night and, you know, you know, and
so I laughed and I came back to North Carolina and
I worked for the bishop of North Carolina, um, who
then became the Head of the whole entire Episcopal
Church, Bishop Michael Curry, you might have heard
of him, my dear friend, I just was just texting

(21:14):
with him two seconds ago. He, um. And that was
amazing. And I was what's called a canon. So I was
uh, basically in house congregational development
and clergy support for 60 congregations because it
was in a geographical area of the diocese. And
most of those congregations, like 90% of them were
like fewer than 50 members and most of those were

(21:36):
like fewer than 20 members. And so it was my job
to go around to these rural places and meet with
these churches. And I have bigger churches too,
and to talk with the clergy. And long story short,
I realized that it wasn't just me, right? Like all
of these churches were struggling, especially the
small ones, but even the medium sized ones. Clergy
were stressed, congregations were growing. They

(21:57):
were barely hanging in there. There's waiting to
be closed. They could not figure out how to move
forward. They, you know, and there was so much
stress. And I just kept thinking, there has got to
be a better way to do this, right? There's just
gotta be a better way, right? And, um, Bishop
Curry got elected to be the PB and so that was the
end of 2015. And so he actually, and my husband

(22:18):
coined the term free range priest. He started
calling me the free range priest. And, and because
I was all, I was out there. And so then I just
decided, I'm going to do this. I'm going to become
a free range priest. What does that mean? I have
no idea what it, what I decided I was going to do
is, well, two really, really big things. The first
thing was it's a business. Like I started an LLC

(22:39):
the day that I started Free Range Priest. And um,
so that was part of the whole I'm going to get
outside of this system, right? This system, right?
The institutional, organizational, administrative
system, not the faith church. You know, you, you
heard me talking. I am full on a priest. Um, but
how can we do church differently? And so that just

(23:02):
became the thing that I did. And so that has
changed. I mean, at first it was like crickets and
I have no idea what I was doing. And mostly the
biggest thing that I did in my first year of
ministry is got the pension fund to let me stay in
it, which I still think is an awesome thing, you
know, so I can, um, Free range priest pays my
pension. So I get, I'm or I'm recognized as a, as
a ministry in the Episcopal Church with my
bishop's support. And then it was, and then it was

(23:25):
coded, right? And So I did a lot of also stuff
digital. I also realized that technology is going
to be a huge part of this and that, uh, the 20th
century organizational models and institutional
models are extremely resistant to technology for
whatever reason, but they are extreme. And, uh,
the lack of the ability of the institution to let

(23:47):
technology be at its base, if you will, is, you
know, I just think it's. I think. I think money
and technology really are two of the huge things
are like just huge shifts into the 21st century
that all the other institutions in the world were
doing. That, uh, for whatever reason, at least the
mainline church was just like, not going to go
there and just was sort of stuck. I'd like to say

(24:08):
we're stuck between the first and the 21st
century. Like right in the middle between the
first and the 21st Century. And so, so. So once
Covid happened and once we all went online, well,
then my phone did not stop ringing because then
everybody wants me to help have them, you know, do
tech help. And, um, that's a whole other thing
that we can talk about in another conversation
about. Like, my last. My last secular job before I

(24:31):
went to seminary was I was the assistant to the
chair of the computer science department at Duke
University. So this is the mid-90s, so I learned
how to code HTML and do all these things. So I was
just like, full. I just was in. Have been always
in love with technology and. And just love it and
also could see how.
How it could transform ministry. But I just think
that the institution isn't having it right. So

(24:53):
during these last 10 years, basically, I write, I
coach, I consult, I, um, you know, teach. I do all
the things, you know, trying to help. And actually
I've really kind of burst forward in this last
year. Substack has helped a lot. But also I think
now that I've been doing this for almost 10 years,
I actually, like, have some ideas of what, you

(25:14):
know, some, like, basic, um, you know, kind of
four major sort of areas, you know, that I think
really need to sort of be addressed or go towards
in order to transform. And kind of the biggest one
comes is this systematic change. Like, I'm doing
this big workshop tomorrow night on systematic
change. Because I think one of the things that I

(25:36):
realized is that the institution is not only not
interested in changing, but the institution can't
change. I no longer believe in institutional
change. Like, it's just. It can't not.

>> Loren (25:46):
Yeah, let's dive into that because that, uh, leads
into one of the first big questions I want to ask
you and and this comes from a book. I think it's
out from Dwight Shiley and Larry.

Love Dwight Shiley. Oh, I love D. Shiley. Yeah,
I've met Dwight. Yeah, I, I read his books. Like,
I mean, he's amazing.

>> Loren (26:04):
Yeah, well, he's, I mean my, uh, I have to confess
my favorite theologian is Nandra Root, but Dwight
Shiley is becoming one of my top top five
Christian thinkers, at least currently. Yeah, but
they write about this, you know, bureaucratic
model, which is like the traditional

(26:25):
denominational model versus what we have now, at
least broadly in culture of a networked model. And
like, I heard it from what you said. Like, I'm
thinking, I'm laughing at myself a lot. Like the
pension fund, like, what kind of, you know, I feel
like that's like the thing that I'm constantly
thinking about is like, how do I, like, you know,

(26:46):
how do I, how do I keep. Keep connected enough so
that I can keep contributing to my pension fund
and have some money that's going to come with me
eventually. But also like, because it's a very
much of this top down bureaucratic model. It's
like I get looked at, I think, with, with
suspicion and at least side eyes when I'm like, oh
yeah, I work for all these. I work with and for

(27:10):
many different traditions and many different kinds
of faith leaders. Like, I'm ordained in one
tradition, I go to a church in another tradition.
Like, I work with a lot of Episcopal folks. Like,
what do you think make, uh, of that? I mean, I
think that's the biggest challenge I see.

Well, say that, say. I mean, I could say like a
million things about what you just said, but what,
what are. I'm trying to guess what you're trying.

>> Loren (27:32):
This networked. Like, what do you think of this
networked versus bureaucratic? Like, how do we.

Well, yeah, okay, so that's one of the. Yeah,
that's one of the major. I think, I think you hit
that or Dwight did or whoever. Everybody did. Like
the, the movement from sort of like stable uh,
institutions. Right. Like, and um, and by which I
mean like type, top down, uh, paternalistic, if
you will. Um, and I don't even mean that again in

(27:58):
any kind of genderized way, but just the whole
like leadership at the top and then everybody else
follows along, standardized sort of factory model
and then moving into this more agile, more
networked, more individualized. And I think that
uh, that is always going to be a place where the
church, which is obviously community driven and

(28:19):
seeks to go towards community, but I think we
still have to be open to the concept of the idea
that today's world is much more individualized.
And I think that there are ways that we can make
that connection. But 100%. And I, I, you may have
read some of the stuff I wrote, but, you know, I
have this big thing about post denominationalism.

(28:40):
Right. Like, I, I think that we, I think we
already are post denominational in that I think
that most people in most of our pews could care
less what brand name of Christianity we are and
that, uh. I know you follow Ryan Burkhart and.
Ryan, Ryan, what's his name? Burkhart. Is that
right? Burge. That's right. Ryan Burkhart is
somebody else. I know Ryan Burge, you know, graphs
about religion, which. I also think he's

(29:01):
fantastic. You know, that like the rise of non
denominational, um, but I would call it post
denominational in that sense that, like, I think
that there are ways that we can bring our various
traditions forward. And I see that all the time in
things like evangelicals becoming orthodox. Right.
Like, and Episcopalians becoming evangelical,
which is beaut. I think it's beautiful, right,

(29:21):
that we can bring our traditions along and share
them and sort of like braid them together in these
fantastic ways in an agile networked world that we
just cannot do when we live in these like, like
huge lumbering, you know, powers of hierarchical
denominational differences. Right. And you can't
do anything until you get like 12 committees to

(29:43):
say it's okay. And then I can't do anything. And
then, you know, and it just. And, but anyway, so I
have just, I have given up, um, believing that the
institution is going to change. Right. And no
matter how much it wants to. And I think this is
scary and it's hard, but it's true. And I think
it's liberating. I think we have to truly embrace
and even celebrate that the institutions are

(30:06):
dying. The institutions, not the church, not the
traditions, not the. All the things that are
beautiful about how we follow God. Um, but the,
these things are crumbling to the ground in front
of our eyes, right? Like, I'm an Episcopalian, so
like our churches, most mainlines are. But like.

>> Loren (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's crumbling inside and we're, it's crushing us
underneath it. And so that's, to me, like the
analogy is we've got to get out from underneath it
so it doesn't crush us. And also we need to be
alongside of it. Right? It's still. The church is,
the church is transforming, the institution is
collapsing.

>> Loren (30:43):
Yeah.
Let's explore that because I'm curious. And this
is one of the questions I did want to ask is
because my experience, and it seems like this is
what I've read and heard from many people, is that
there does seem to be some level of
institutionalization to take a movement to
sustainable like beyond just the initial inertia
and energy and personality driven nature of

(31:05):
movement. Like, have you even thought to what that
might look like?

Oh, yeah. Yes, I have.

>> Loren (31:14):
Softball question.

Have I thought about that? That's kind of my job.
Well, and so, and I just wrote about this too.
Like everybody, everywhere, every time I've ever
had this conversation, they say, well, why can't
we just do house church, right? Why don't we just
go sit in our living rooms? And again, it's a
beautiful idea, It's a beautiful thing. And I say
just like what you said, that is great once, maybe
twice, but the third time you do that, then you do

(31:40):
need to organize, right? And so, and hear me say
that I am not opposed to organization,
administration, you know, communication, right?
All of that kind of stuff. I just think. And so I
think that at a certain point you do you.
Someone's got to be in charge, right? You have to
figure out how it's going to go. Um, you have to
figure out how you're going to pay for it. And
that is like I'm going to skip down to the end

(32:01):
when you, you asked me to think about like things
I would say to people in the church to think
about. You have to think about money, right? We,
we have to. It's hard, it's scary, we hate it. Um,
we have to say this out loud. We have to be able
to afford it. We have to make money in ministry or
we won't have it. And it's okay, we can talk about

(32:21):
it, right? And it's also okay to make money,
right? And so, so all of those things, right? So,
and so I would say, like, for me it is the
business model, right? Um, like you, you may know
this. I think a lot of people in my world don't
know this. Scratch the surface of any huge mega
church. Those aren't, those aren't Nonprofits.

(32:43):
They are LLCs. Those huge churches are our
businesses, right? And I think that yes, we,
everybody gets really scared about like whether
that is holy or whether it is faithful. And to
which I would come back and say, think of all the
businesses, the straight up secular businesses,
you know, who's. That are built on principles that

(33:04):
are about loving God and your neighbor or serving
the world, you uh, know, sacrificially. So I, so I
think like we get ourselves lost in the whole idea
that like capitalism can be of course incredibly
brutal, but it, it doesn't have to be. To me it's
about agile, networked technology, you know,

(33:24):
sustainability, right? That like we, I think we
need to just take the books and I, and I literally
do this right. Like um, in my 10 years as a free
range priest, you know, I have like most of what
like half of what I'm doing is educating myself.
And so I have done all the things like I am a
solopreneur small business owner and I have done

(33:46):
all the, I've taken all the online classes, I've
done all the things right. And um, and tried all
the different platforms and stuff. And, and I
think of myself as a creative solopreneur, right?
And, and so to me that is the basis for what I do.
And I contract with churches and individuals and
that's part of my whole. When I talked about small

(34:07):
church and sustainable part time ministry, I. A
contract with the church that has 30 members,
right? And um, guess what? That's, that's a
wonderful thing for them and for me because they
can afford me, first of all, they only pay me for
what I do. And that is part of, I don't think of
myself, I would say bivocational as my trigger

(34:29):
word. I will not use the word bivocational when
it, when it actually means you're not getting paid
for your ministry. It's one thing if you're, you
know, if you're called to be a doctor and a priest
or whatever, but what we really mean is you're
gonna not get paid to be a minister. And that is
not okay with me. And so I have a ministry that is
made up of, you know, several income streams from
several different places. It sounds like you have

(34:51):
something of the similar thing. And to me that's
full time ministry. It just doesn't look like I
get a salary from an institution. And so that's
what I'm talking about, but 100% and I think that,
I think denominations, um, and diocese and
whatever can also run this way. I think that there
are still ways that I mean, I believe in the

(35:11):
authority of bishops, I believe in the authority
of the denominational church. I just think that we
could be outside of again the sort of ponderous,
you know, stuff that's holding us together. What I
would Say is a mid 20th century institutional
model and move into a model that is much more,
much more agile technology Based, blah, blah,
blah. One of the things that I do on a very

(35:31):
practical matter is that I, I teach and use
Planning Center. Do you know Planning center, it's
a church management software and I think it's the
very best church management software for so many
reasons. And I help churches use this and you
know, it just, it pretty much gives me an aneurysm
when I say out loud that I'm pretty sure that the
Episcopal Church doesn't actually know how many

(35:52):
members it has. Like, there is no actual database
that they can like call up all the Episcopalians.
And that, um, it just makes me weep. I just can't.
And so, and the same m with most. And when I, and
I talk to diocese and say, don't you want to know
who all your members are? Wouldn't you love to
have a database of all the members of your diocese
that you could pull them up and look at them and,
and know them. Right. Like, and again, something

(36:15):
that a debt, a business could do in a second,
wouldn't you want to have that kind of
relationship with the people who are part of your
church? So I mean, to me, something like that and,
and yes and no. People want that and that's very
scary and very hard for them.

>> Loren (36:30):
It is a lot. And it's interesting. Like, we
shouldn't turn this into a commercial for Planning
center, but Planning center does offer, as I
remember, like they do price points. Right. Based
on your size.

So it's not like, yeah, my, my 30 person church
planning center, it costs them $35 a month. Um,
because the database part is free no matter how
big or how small you are.

>> Loren (36:52):
Right, right.
I'm also thinking about like, I'm also thinking
about how much like in what you just talked about,
like, how much there is opportunity for like
reimagining things in a way that's going to help
the church move forward, um, without just entirely

(37:12):
being stuck in the past. Do you want to, you want
to talk more about like, you know, and you name
these like, principles of like, I didn't, I don't
know if like, I don't know a megachurch model well
enough to know if they use like an llc. But like,
it doesn't shock me to think about that because I
know of other people who I know are in similar
spaces to you and have like a nonprofit arm and

(37:35):
they have an LLC arm. And certainly there's been a
lot of positive movement around social
entrepreneurship and social entrepreneurship,
which I imagine you're familiar with, like, has
multiple bottom lines. So I don't think it's a
stretch to call a church, uh, uh, a social
entrepreneurship in some capacity and to utilize
those different models or formations to help

(37:57):
advance their work. Do you want to talk more about
how utilizing some of these different tools or
organizational formations can help them advance
their work going into the future?

Yes, I do want to talk about that. Well, first of
all, it's just a lot less work. Right? It is just
a lot less work. Like I'd love to talk about the
church bulletin, but also like, like yes. Okay, so
the, the, the jump from one to the other is really
hard. Right. So which is again why I am. My
advocacy now is about just start with the 20th,

(38:32):
21st century model and then like connect yourself
to the old like, you know, so I, I got really big
into like I'm going to come into your church, I'm
going to come into your diocese, I'm going to
teach you how to use planning center and you're
just going to. And you know what I mean, this is,
and I mean this with all due respect, you know,
and then it's like the 75 year old ladies at the
desk or like not going to do this. Right? And I,

(38:53):
and it's not their fault. Right. And so, but I
also think the church doesn't realize that, bless
their hearts, because they're whole, literally
they're holding the church together. But also if
you've got a 75 year old lady at the desk who's in
charge of like typing things into the uh, to the
desktop and then printing them out and carrying
them over here, then, then you're not efficient in

(39:15):
any way. Right? Like you're not. And, and to me
then that goes so, so a. I think that um, the
whole thing about starting a gym for your soul,
you know, one of the things I'm trying to do now
is sort of work with myself and with other people
who are doing entrepreneurial ministry and then
help them connect to churches. So if I run the

(39:36):
thing, like I uh, work for a small church
basically in a tech, in a. But I also work for a
larger church where I run their planning center
for them. Right. And so, and then I'm gradually
teaching them how to use it, but they pay me less
than they would pay somebody who was an
administrator to help them, you know, sort of set
this thing up kind of alongside what they do. So

(39:56):
that kind of thing connecting on that level. The
other thing is this goes down to a little bit more
of like a, it's basically like what are we doing
here right? Like, why are we here? Right. And I
think for so many congregations it comes down to
like, we're here because we've always been here
and we need to always be here. And that's not a

(40:18):
mission. M. And so I think the, I think this, this
is part of the getting out of the systematic
thinking into the new. Like, so when I talk about
business thinking and agile thinking and that sort
of thing, it's like, what's our goal? What do we
mean to be doing here and how do we measure that?
Like, how do we know? And so, and then people get

(40:39):
all nervous about like, well, maybe we only have
30 members, maybe we're not going to get more
members. Maybe membership isn't the whole goal.
But, but, but. And I also would say you still need
a measurable goal.

>> Loren (40:53):
Yeah.

And yeah, go ahead, let me give.

>> Loren (40:57):
A shout, quick shout out to Chad Brooks, UMC
pastor, who I just.

Oh yeah, I follow him on stuff, stuff too.

>> Loren (41:03):
But he has a great point about like, you don't
have to be a huge church to be vital and
sustainable. Like you can be a huge church and not
be at all vital, not be at all sustainable.
Whereas a church of 30, like you said, can be
vital and sustainable, right?

Yes, I serve one. Yeah. A hundred percent. Um, but
you also then have to like, be explicit about
that. Like, what's our goal? Like again, it does
go back to like, what are we doing, how are we
doing it and how are we paying for it and how.
Like again, it's small business, big business,
right. Plenty of people. I have one. Right. Like
our sole proprietor llc. You could can basically

(41:41):
say we're going to be a 30 member church. Um,
incidentally, that's this whole gym for your soul
Traco. I'm working with my small congregation to
do this. Right. And so they, you know, I, I mean
they're working through me and with me. But the
whole idea is people subscribe on substack, right?
We have people joining the gym, um, online, but

(42:01):
they're connected with this community of 30 people
who are in person, right. And get money. It's part
of their sustainability, but it's also part of the
way that they're um, grow their membership and
that they connect spiritually and how they share
the gospel. Right. And yet they also get to stay
their size, which they love. There's nothing, I
mean, I would say, I mean part of this whole weird

(42:24):
journey for me is that I've fallen in love with
small churches. I in my mind think that all
churches should have only 30 members. Because this
particular church that I am with, there's so,
there's so much intimacy there, there's so much
closeness. Um, and so if they got much bigger, it
would be really hard to be that involved in each
other's lives and you know, to be that personally,
you know, there with each other. And so they don't

(42:46):
really want to get that much bigger, but they do
want to be sustainable and they do want to share
the gospel and they're absolutely. That's the
exciting thing. There's lots of ways you can do
that today, but you have to sort of get outside of
that. We're going to have a Sunday school, we're
going to have a full time priest, you know, all
that kind of stuff. Because you're not going to.
Those things are not going to happen.

>> Loren (43:01):
I want to go back to what you said there about the
alternative ways of being connected to the
institution or to the. I can't remember the words
you use there. Like the old system, um, like I'm
thinking of, and I've again, I struggle to get
traction on this because I think it's utilized in
mainline circles is like fiscal sponsorship. Like,

(43:23):
I think fiscal sponsorship should be a bigger
deal. Uh, yeah, because if anything like it gives
like a startup opportunity to like get some
traction and immediately get tax deductible
donations without having to wait through all the
501C3 stuff.

Yeah.

>> Loren (43:40):
Talk more about how you could see like that
because I think it's. There's going to be, like
you said, there's going to be some need to be
attached to the old institutions, but they're also
going to want to be networked to other groups.

So talk. Exactly.

>> Loren (43:54):
That connect.

Right.
Well, so here's one of the things I'm uh, going to
talk about my workshop tomorrow night is that when
I look out there and all of this and where I see a
lot of the stress, right, the uh, real stress on
clergy and congregations is that we have this
system, the standard system that's not working.
And yet we're putting all our energy and all the

(44:19):
resources that we currently have to double down
and triple down on doing the same things over and
over again that are not working. And so like we
are squandering, I mean squandering our money and
our resources and our people and our energy. And
so one of the good things about this I think is
that my contention is, and I uh, believe this very

(44:42):
strongly, the systems that are already working,
the congregations that are already existing, the
doing the things that they do for they've been
doing for the last 60 years. They don't need that
much more energy and time to continue to work like
they're working right now. Now. Right. So
basically it's um, I don't know if you are
familiar with Rabbi Edmund Friedman Family Systems
Theory. So Friedman's big thing, which I is one of

(45:04):
my biggest sort of north stars defect in place.
And so what that means is stop doing the stuff
that you don't need to do. Right. Just do the
stuff that you need to do and stop doing
everything else and trying extra hard. Right. So
and this was the long way of saying that I've done
this and I can see this happening. So for example,

(45:25):
in a very concrete way m someone you're a full
time pastor of a like medium sized congregation.
And again it's not getting any bigger, the
budget's not getting any, any better or whatever.
So the congregation intentionally supports,
literally supports that clergy person spending

(45:47):
half their time doing their entrepreneurial
ministry. M. Right. Mhm. And with the idea A that
they are building the future of the church. Right.
And, and B, they're not going to be there forever.
But also they don't even have to be part of it. I
mean they can be right. You know, but they don't
have to be. But it's not like, oh, it's my pastor,
you've got to be, we're paying you full time, you

(46:07):
got to be here full time. You have to be at more
meetings. The church could merely say going to
more meetings is not actually making this better.
Right. Um, we are not going to get any more
members. The pastor's still gonna be here on
Sunday. Right. They're still gonna preach, they're
still gonna do pastoral care and we're gonna work
this out what the pastor's gonna do. We're still
gonna pay them the same amount of money if we can
afford it. But we're gonna pay them what we can

(46:28):
afford it. Maybe it'll be a little bit less but.
And then we are gonna jump up and down for joy
that that pastor is then building a sub stack or
building a spiritual practices, ah, gym or you
know, whatever else they're doing or you know,
spending their time with a house church or you
know, and that's also part of the whole agile

(46:50):
network, getting out of our silos. You know, it's
because I also think that there's this whole like
it's my church, you know, this whole scarcity.
Like, you know, we're not paying for someone to do
that. You know, it's like, nope, we're all in the
same business. Right. We are all in the good news
business. So that's. So that's what I mean by
that. Um, you know, I work with. Oh, go ahead, go
ahead.

>> Loren (47:09):
I've been at two things that I think speak to your
point and I haven't. This has been a while, but
Matt Sertol, I think was. His name, was a PC USA
pastor who I talked to a couple of years ago kind
of about your point about doing these passion
projects, which I think is great because it gives
the pastor something that refreshes them and also
is kind of like you said, entrepreneurial or
leading edge, which I think is not at all a thing

(47:32):
that happens in mainline churches often.

Not at all.

>> Loren (47:37):
R and D. I'm thinking also of another family
systems guy I follow, Steve Cuss, who. His big
thing is when we're in anxiety, we just try
harder. And like that's like what, what you've
been saying again and again throughout this
conversation is like, mainline is just like, let's
just try harder.

Right? Yeah. Just not working. Just not working.
And also bless them. But it's like I also think
that what we end up doing, at least in the
mainline church is we try new expressions of
church, as we say, within the same container.
Right. So it's all good to have a. To have a
garden and it's all great to have pub church and

(48:17):
it's great to do you. And I'm not making fun. I
think this is wonderful that people are trying new
music or new forms of worship or whatever. That's
great. If it's in the same container where you
still have the full time pastor and all the
committees and this has to be approved and this is
the budget. Nothing has changed that. I think it's
really hard because we don't really see the

(48:37):
container, you know, that it's really hard to get
people to get. That's actually not getting us
anywhere if it's still in the same container.
Right. And so like we, um. I talked to somebody
last summer who was. She's really big on TikTok. I
was on TikTok for a while, but once I found
Substack, I just like fell in love with Substack
and I. I just haven't been on TikTok because it's

(48:57):
just not as much fun. Um, um, uh. So. But she had
like, she was a pastor and she had like whatever,
thousands and thousands and thousands of
followers. She's great. And so she got hired by
the Zabaya Diocese to be their sort of like social
media pastor, which again, I think is awesome.

>> Loren (49:17):
Bethany Peerbold.

Yes, I am, you know. Oh, she's awesome.

>> Loren (49:22):
Yeah.

Well, I called her up because I was like, okay,
like, you don't care, but I'm gonna talk to you
about this. I just wanna know, like. And I said,
so, like, how are you keeping track of your
members? And she's just like, basically like,
we're not. Right. And so I'm like, how is this
gonna be sustainable? How are you building this
into something where you can have a community and

(49:45):
you can continue to sustain it and you can have
some level of organization? And she's just like,
not on the radar, you know. And, you know, this is
to me the whole like, fabulous idea. Wonderful
person, great ministry still in the same box,
right? Like, like, it's just like, what's going to
happen with that? Right? That's house church all

(50:06):
over again, right? At a certain point, either
there has to be a new way to, to, to frame it and
sustain it and administrate it and all that kind
of st. Or it's just gonna fall by the wayside. If,
uh, that diocese decides that they're out of
money, then that ministry's over. Right? And also

(50:27):
I would say from the perspective of discipleship
and growing the church in new ways, unless you're
connecting with people and knowing who they are
and having a way to grow in relationship with them
and help them grow in relationship with each
other, then again, what is your goal? What are you
trying to do? You. Right. Um, and like, how are
you bringing people into faith? And how do you

(50:48):
know, right? And going back to even repetitive
prayer and all that kind of stuff. Are we walking
with people? Are they growing in their faith? Are
they getting closer to God? How are we getting
that feedback? How are we improving and making
this a better thing, right. To go down that sort
of thing. Anyway, so that is my, that's like my
example of that. I think that's a fabulous thing.
And it's in the same container still, right? And

(51:08):
if we don't start talking about the system and the
new containers, then. And that's a perfect example
of something that could be in it. Like that could
be a startup, that could be something that people
paid money to be part of a community for, that
could be a subscription community, um, that could,
you know, whatever that could grow into, you know,
resources and that sort of thing. And uh, a new

(51:29):
way to do spiritual, spiritual direction. I don't
know. It's not my thing.

>> Loren (51:32):
Like, I yeah, yeah, I hear what you're saying.
Because I think, I think this is again, something
that happens again and again in mainline
traditions because there's so much like, old
money, right. So much institutional money that.
But, uh, we're kind of just like spending it down.
Right, Right. If I'm hearing you right, you're
like, you're a big thing and we should probably
move on after this.

Yeah, sorry. Yeah, sorry if I'm wrong here.

>> Loren (51:56):
Your big thing is like, how is it going to
sustain?

Right, right, right. And I mean, I mean, for me, I
come in from the Episcopal Church where, you know,
again, we've got so much money. We have more money
than God. We do. And I also will say that out of
our fear, and this goes back to fear, a lot of us
are just burying it in the dirt. Right? So, like,
um, I've applied for a million grants and this is
like, this is going to sound like whatever, like

(52:20):
it's. This is not personal though. But I do, like,
first of all, I can't get a grant because I'm a
business. Right? Like, you cannot get a grant
unless you're. If you're a business. And that just
hurts me.

>> Loren (52:31):
Like you talked about. I got to rant on this for a
moment. So forgive me.

Go rant and be with me.

>> Loren (52:36):
Rant the same thing. Like, I, when I was doing my.
My work is under a, uh, llc. Because it's like, it
was just so much easier and simpler to do an LLC
than a nonprofit 5:1-C3 board and all that. And it
just makes it so much simpler and more nimble to
do an llc. Yes, you definitely have less
accountability, but this idea that you can't be

(52:58):
accountable or, uh, productive or, or right, you
know.

Right, right. Or you're not really the church.

>> Loren (53:07):
Right?

Yes, right.

>> Loren (53:09):
So rant over. Continue. I'm sorry.

No, no, no, no, no. So that's so, so that's part
of the whole thing. So. And even then, you know,
it's just like, um, I've been through that process
enough to see that, like what they end up saying
is all the different grant boards say, oh, we've
never seen this done before. And I'm just like,
like, right, right. That's what innovation is.

(53:32):
Right? Like, and so like that sense of like the
risk averse, you know, everybody knows that
startups or new things are going to fail, like 95%
of the time. They just are. And that you have to
keep trying. And so like every other area of the,
of everything we do has a great, you Know, they

(53:52):
invest money in things that are going to fail.
Right? And so, because you learn and you keep
going. But then I, I think, uh, again, I think it
also goes back to what are we trying to learn,
right?
Like, I think we haven't actually allowed
ourselves to articulate where are we going, what
are we trying to do? If we were trying to build a
new AI system, we would know how we were doing. So

(54:16):
what are we doing if we're building a new type of
church again? What does, what do we expect it to
look like? How do we know it will work work, and
how will we measure that? And then how will we pay
for it? And then how will we try again when it
doesn't work and that sort of thing and keep
adjusting? And I, I think the institutional church
should like, wildly invest in these sorts of

(54:38):
things. And um. But so far most of the stuff that
I've seen that it calls itself innovative ministry
is again, still within the container. And, um, you
know, I know we have to move on, but like, I used
to work with, uh, Michael Hun, who's currently the
Bishop of Rio Grande, so in, um, New Mexic in West
Texas. But, um, he used to always use the, the

(54:59):
Toyota, the Prius experiment, you know, back when
they were trying to develop electric car. So what
he said, what I understand is that Toyota took
some people and said, go develop an electric car
and don't come back. Like, don't tell us how it's
going because we will tell you it's wrong. Like,
we, because we're a car company and we know how

(55:19):
this goes, if you come back and say, this is what
we're thinking about, we're going to say that's
never going to work. And so they basically let
them go for like, however many years and said, we
don't even want a progress report because we want
you to figure it out. And when they came back,
they're like, that's never going to work. Right.
But they did it anyway. And so the, Even if just
like this much of the church, even just a tiny

(55:41):
sliver of basically people who have money and
power were able to say, okay, we really are going
to let go of this in the service of things that
are truly outside of our realm of power and
authority. Um, you know, and again, I had. I need
to say it. I say it all the time. I shouldn't say
it, but I will. I'm not talking about
inappropriate behavior. I'm not talking about

(56:02):
outside the realm of like, um, either the
Christian faith or the Christian you know,
behavior or anything like that. I absolutely
believe in accountability 100% about, you know,
to, to everybody about how we live our lives and
how we conduct our ministry. But again, the
containers, the, the ways that we're doing it, I,

(56:22):
um, think should. We should be given enormous
leeway and support. Most of the people that I
meet, like you, like the other people that I work
with are, we are scraping by. Right. Um, it's part
of my big. One of my goals is to make what I would
call a grown up salary so that I can tell other
people it's possible I'm barely there. Well,
because I have to pay on my pension. Right. I

(56:43):
still have to pay 18% of everything I bring in.
Between taxes and pension, um, and my business
expenses. That's 50% of what I bring in. So like
gross. I make a grown up salary net. I'm married
to. I call my husband Jeff, my patron saint. But

(57:04):
on. Everybody can do that.

>> Loren (57:05):
Yeah. You know, it's funny, I was thinking of, I
think it's skunk works, right. I can't remember
who, who the company was. Like it was Lockheed or
some kind of big arms or tech company who did
something similar where they said, go, go out into
the parking lot or something and, and don't come
back. Something similar to that. So, so there's
something to be said for that kind of, uh, you

(57:26):
know, let's send people out in their way and see
what they come up with. And I don't think that's
entirely unbiblical either, you know, Jesus two by
two, uh, and see. Go to work.

Yeah, exactly.

>> Loren (57:39):
Let's take a break here and come.

Back with some closing questions. Okay. All right.

>> Loren (57:48):
We'Re back with Father Cathie Kaimano. Did I get
that right? Good.

You did get it right.

>> Loren (57:53):
Right. Uh, okay, so closing questions.
You're welcome to take these as seriously or not
as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day,
what might you want to do with that day?

I laughed when you said this in advance, and I
laughed at that. And, um, I first had a diversion
because this is who I am that, you know, we just
elected and they just elected a new Pope. And my
husband and I both used to be Catholic. And, and
you may not know this, but the only actual
qualification for being Pope is that you have to
be a baptized Roman, uh, Catholic male. And so I
told my husband, I'm like, you need to run for

(58:27):
this. Like, you'll put your name in, right?
Because then I could be like the Pope's wife. He
could be the first. Yeah. She did not. But
honestly, I would take the day off, right.
Because, like, you talk about, like, the
institutional system and like, I'm trying really
hard to get out of that. So, like. Nope. I would
wander around this, that beautiful, um, you know,
Vatican and look at all the art and, uh, drink

(58:49):
some wine, but no way. I want.

>> Loren (58:51):
Good answer. It's a good answer. Okay. A
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd
want to meet or bring back to life.

Oh, gosh. Well, Friedman would be one of them.
He's not Christian. But, um, uh, C.S. lewis came
immediately to my mind. But really, truly. This is
going to sound, I don't know, hokey or whatever,
but Paul, like the Apostle Paul, like, because I
kind of feel like that's also what he was doing.
Yeah, he's a historical figure, but he, like, he,
uh, he was developing the earliest church. Right.

(59:21):
I want to know how he did it. Right. That all
those letters, that's what he was doing. Right.
Different expressions of the church were happening
and he was tearing his hair out half the time. But
that's what he was trying to do, like, stay with
the faith, keep, keep, keep together, you know,
pay for stuff, bring me my cloak. But also, like,
just trying to keep everybody's, you know, hopes
up and trying to network everybody together. And

(59:44):
in so many ways, I think of myself, myself as. I
mean, not that that sounds hubris, but you know
what I mean. Like, you know that like walking as.

>> Loren (59:51):
Like a tent maker. Uh, like Paul.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Loren (59:54):
Back for it. Because I know what you mean.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I wasn't trying to sound
like grandiose.

>> Loren (01:00:00):
I feel like. I feel like you are kind of just
alternative there, just being a mainliner and
referencing Paul. But that's a. That's a whole
nother conversation.

>> Cathie Caimano (01:00:08):
I'm. I'm a closet evangelical. Don't tell anybody.
Oh.

>> Loren (01:00:14):
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?

I thought about this a little bit too. I think
that, you know, we're in the 20s, right? So like,
it's like the new millennia. And like, just like
any other new millennia, it's like our new
century. Um, for whatever reason, we turn over
into that and it's all like, woo, we're in a new
century. We're in a new millennia. And then I feel
like it doesn't hit. Get all the stuff that's

(01:00:40):
shifting until about the 20s, right? The 20s and
30s. And you look back in history, you can see
that even in actually in Christianity. Right. Um,
and so I think that that's what's gonna. It's what
it's gonna look like. It's gonna. Whatever this
is. It's the sort of like, rumbling of whatever
the big thing is gonna come that's gonna, um, you
know, sort of be the thing of our age. I don't

(01:01:03):
think we're there yet. Right. I think we're just
seeing the, The. The tectonic plates shifting,
which to me is super exciting. Exciting.

>> Loren (01:01:10):
Well, that's a good attitude to have, I suppose.
You know, frustration or terror or anger then, for
the future of Christianity.

Wow. Well, you know, I just think, like, I hope
what God hopes for the future of Christianity.
Right. Like, which, I don't know what that is,
but, you know, in our, in our tradition, we say
our, Our acclamation of faith is, you know, Christ
has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Right. And so know we're living in that as far. I
tell my congregation that all the time. Right. We

(01:01:41):
are living in that. In that moment right between
Christ has died, Christ has risen, and Christ will
come again. And so I hope that we enjoy that, you
know, that, like, we live into that with hope and,
uh, courage.

>> Loren (01:01:59):
Yeah.
Well, this has been such a great conversation.
Like, thank you. I'm happy to see Just, like, take
a break and go outside and just process all we've
talked about.

Well, I hope we get to talk some more. Like, I
like you and I have a lot in common. So, um, yes,
after we're done, after doing this for your
podcast, which thank you very much. And I'm seeing
all the people, I look through the people that you
have interviewed. And, um, yeah, I'm very honored
to be included amongst their number because that's
some pretty. Some really, really wonderfully

(01:02:29):
admirable people in ministry. And I'm excited to
have about pretty much everybody you've had on and
what they talk about.

>> Loren (01:02:35):
Well, thank you. Share how folks can connect with
you, get connected with. See if I can get this
right. Treo.

Uh, well, freerangepreach.org, i have actually.
I'm so all into substack that I have actually
forwarded, uh, my domain. So my website is my
substack. And I'm just trying to put in more and
more stuff there. So if you go to
freerangepriest.org it'll take you to my substack.
It connects to Treo, connects to my writing,
connects to how you can work with me. You can find
me there at Saddy.

>> Loren (01:03:03):
Okay. Awesome. Well, this has been a great
conversation. Again, really appreciate your time.
We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you and.

Uh-huh, also with you.

>> Loren (01:03:21):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do

(01:03:43):
us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
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people. Thanks and go in PE.

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