May 28, 2025 • 52 mins
What if your church property wasn’t a burden—but a blessing to your neighbors? In this episode, Loren talks with John Cleghorn about the growing movement of churches reimagining their buildings and land to address the affordable housing crisis. Drawing from firsthand experience and national trends, John explores how faith communities can embrace a new missional identity rooted in service, hospitality, and justice. Whether you’re a pastor, denominational leader, or simply wondering what’s next for the American church, this conversation offers both challenge and hope.
This episode includes:
- How churches are transforming unused space into affordable housing
- The pastoral challenge of helping congregations grieve old models while embracing new vision
- Why engaging neighbors is essential before development
- The tension between mission and monetization
- What it means to be a church after Christendom—and why that might be good news
John Cleghorn became pastor of Caldwell Presbyterian in 2008 after 25 years in banking and journalism. He has served Caldwell as it rebounded from almost closing to become a vibrant, diverse, mission-driven congregation centered on the love and justice of Jesus Christ. His latest book, Building Belonging: The Church’s Call to Create Community and House Our Neighbors, springs from his congregation’s experience and his national research into the emerging movement of faith-based organizations building affordable housing on their property. Building Belonging blends theology and Bible study with case studies and lessons learned From the movement. A native of Atlanta, he has lived in Charlotte since 1986 and has served on a wide array of non-profit agency boards in the religious and human services fields at the local and national levels. He is currently a board member of WFAE. He is married to Kelly, a kindergarten teacher, and has two adult children. He holds a Doctorate in Ministry from Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, a Master of Divinity from Union Presbyterian Seminary and a Bachelor of Arts from Washington and Lee University. His first book, Resurrecting Church: Where Justice and Diversity Meet Radical Welcome and Healing Hope (Fortress Press), came out in 2020.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 Book: https://www.wjkbooks.com/Products/0664268501/building-belonging.aspx
🌐 Caldwell Presbyterian: https://www.caldwellpresby.org/
🎧 Mark Elsdon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/eldson/
🎧 Mark Elsdon: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/mark-elsdon-on-why-we-arent-broke/
Presenting Sponsor:
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
with John Cleghorn. John became
pastor of Caldwell Presbyterian in
2008 after 25 years in banking
and journalism. He has served Caldwell
as it rebounded from almost closing to become
a vibrant, diverse, mission driven congregation
(01:06):
centered on the love and justice of Jesus Christ.
His latest book, Building the
Church's Call to Create Community and House Our
Neighbors, springs from his congregation's
experience and his national research into
the emerging movement of faith based
organizations building affordable housing on
(01:27):
their property. Building Belonging
blends theology and Bible study with
case studies and lessons learned from the movement.
A native of Atlanta, he has lived in
Charlotte since 1986 and has
served on a wide array of non profit agency
boards in the religious and human services field
(01:47):
at the local and national levels. He is
married to Kelly, a kindergarten teacher,
and has two adult children. He holds a
Doctorate in Ministry from Pittsburgh Theological
Seminary, a Master of Divinity from
Union Presbyterian Seminary, and a
Bachelor of Arts from Washington and Lee University.
(02:08):
His first book, Resurrecting where
justice and Diversity Meet Radical welcome
and Healing Hope, came out in 2020.
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren,
(02:29):
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:55):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
today the Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (03:04):
Thank you, Lorne. I'm really delighted to be here.
>> Loren (03:07):
Great. Looking forward to having this conversation. Is there anything
else you want to say about yourself? Uh, maybe. What part of the country do
you come from? Uh, right now?
>> Speaker D (03:15):
Well, I am a lifelong Southerner,
uh, and I try to live beyond that, but I, uh, was
born in Atlanta, have lived my adult life In Charlotte,
have been all over the country. Um,
native of this area and uh,
very aware of the South's pros and cons.
Mhm.
>> Loren (03:33):
Mhm. Yeah. Well thanks so much for being here. Looking
forward to talking more. Share if you would, just about your
faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that
looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:43):
Well, thank you. Um, um,
it's been ah, an adventure to say the least and one
I'm very grateful for. I grew up in
Atlanta in um, a reasonably
affluent, moderate, um, to progressive
ah, church. Um, that really to me,
um, as a kid and then as a teenager I
was not aware of those kinds of
(04:05):
labels. To me it was a community, it was a family that
embraced me and uh, single, um,
mother, um, and um, was
there um, every Sunday. My mother was
very involved and then I became very involved
as a youth elder. And so it had a
profound influence on shaping me
(04:26):
and uh, probably planting seeds that later
sprouts sprouted in terms of my own sense of call.
Um, but of course by the
time I got into ministry in my 40s,
uh, the punch bowl that uh,
had been the largesse and the
mainstream Christianity was not there anymore.
(04:48):
So it's been a fun ride to adapt and
adjust. But um, um. I'm
very much ah, a cradle
Presbyterian and uh,
thankful for that.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Share if you would, a spiritual
practice that's meaningful for you.
>> Speaker D (05:06):
Well, thank you. Right now I'm trying to focus very
much on um, living
into my finiteness, uh, reading
a book called Meditations for Mortals that
I heard about. And uh,
it embraces the
fact that a lot of us as activists and advocates
(05:27):
live in trying to overdo and
uh, therefore not get as much done
and run ourselves ragged. So I'm at
the phase in my career where I'm trying to very much
concentrate on uh,
uh, living a robust life that
is not uninformed, uh, about limitations.
>> Loren (05:49):
That sounds very wise and prudent.
I know that the struggle is just as I look to my
parents, you know, thinking uh, about how they
perhaps not as well as I'd like them to think, uh,
about their own limitations in life,
uh, and as they near the end of their. Their working
(06:10):
ages and careers.
>> Speaker D (06:13):
Well, part of it here is that this congregation,
uh, is so passionate about so many different
things. And so my, my journey in that
regard is the church's journey. Uh,
the church takes on very big,
audacious uh, things. Um,
uh, but we can't. We've got to figure out how to
(06:34):
uh, run the race at a pace where we can
finish.
>> Loren (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's smart. Well, I'm
excited to have this conversation. John is the author of
the book Building the Church's Call to
Create Community and House Our Neighbors.
So maybe if you want to begin just
by, as you do in the book, kind of just telling the story of your
congregation and then how the book came about
(06:58):
through that.
>> Speaker D (06:59):
Absolutely. Thanks. Um, indeed. Um,
this church
went um, through sort of a near death experience,
uh, and then rebounded and it's come back to life as
a diverse and missional and intersectional
church. And early on in its
resurrected ah, life we have a
(07:20):
campus that once housed a
congregation of 1100 members. And so we are
blessed with uh, a lot of space and have tried to use
that very missionally and creatively.
And uh, for three and a half years
housed a women's shelter in one of our
buildings. And at about that time that it moved on
to a more permanent suitable site. We were a
(07:43):
stopgap site. But uh, we also
as a church were celebrating our centennial
and the congregation slowed down and
had the audacity, uh, just having been kind of
brought back from the grave to say what shall we do with our
second century? And uh, uh,
we looked at a variety of big ideas, middle
(08:04):
ideas, small ideas. But the one that
resonated was that we had missed uh,
having the women in the shelter. Um, and so
we took a good hard look at a 14,000
square foot building, uh, every church has
one, the big Sunday school wing with lots of
classrooms, and decided to in
fact go on housing and
(08:27):
uh, dedicate that to helping address
the affordable housing crisis. Now that was
10, 11 years ago and it's gotten so much more acute.
But uh, the book comes out
in part our journey, journey, uh, in
part my own, uh, interest as a former
reporter to understand the national
(08:49):
emergence of this movement and to trace
it, uh, which I used a sabbatical for.
And uh, then to try and capture the
movement, um, early on
as it is, uh, to share with other churches that
might be thinking about this same calling.
Um, and uh, the movement has really
(09:09):
just skyrocketed. My book focuses
uh, particularly on churches that
look at putting housing on their property.
There are many ways for churches to be
involved in the housing crisis. My book,
uh, is the first kind of case study,
well set of case studies to look at
(09:31):
different ways that churches have done that so far.
And uh, ever since then,
uh, learn of yet more examples. So it's
been a fascinating movement in its infancy to try
and kind of document.
>> Loren (09:45):
Yeah, I'm curious I'm curious if you can kind of
share about. I mean, I think it's been
well documented, but just. Just to summarize
about kind of the housing crisis writ large. I
mean it seems like every time we think it, it can't get worse,
things can get worse. So how have you seen that play out?
Um, and how has that impacted your ministry and your
(10:06):
con. Kind of missional impact
or missional motives?
>> Speaker D (10:13):
Mhm. Well, it's a strange kind of
convergence and weave of, I guess, my own
personal journey with that subject. In
the 80s I was a business reporter for the newspaper here and
I covered housing and then found myself being
drawn more into direct community work and was involved in
some of the earliest affordable housing dialogues
here in Charlotte when relative to the problem we have
(10:35):
now was hardly anything. But
uh, found
myself being interested in that 35 years
ago. Um, and then as you have
pointed out, it's just become, um, a
kitchen table topic now.
But it wasn't necessarily four to five
(10:55):
years ago. And so as we leaned into
understanding that Charlotte had a budding
crisis, the nation's crisis also
sort of blossomed, uh, in all the wrong.
All the way to the point that, uh, in last year's
presidential election, the first time that I can
remember, both candidates were
(11:17):
talking about a housing crisis in their stunt speeches.
Um, and so it touches every county
and every burb in America, whether
it's urban or rural, uh, people
making minimum wage or even uh, a
basic livable wage cannot afford decent
housing in America. And um,
(11:39):
so, um, Charlotte has uh,
become my second home. And
I, uh, have
kind of a passionate relationship with Charlotte. I love
it, but I want it to do better. And it,
uh, resembles a lot of cities in that,
uh, it's economically very
(12:00):
successful and growing, uh,
one of the fastest growing cities in America. But
it loves to say, uh, uh, our
boosters love to say that we welcome 140
people a day to Charlotte. What we don't
talk about is how many people we're pricing out
of Charlotte. And those tend to be the people that do the hard
(12:20):
work in our city. So I've sort
of followed it both as, um, a
citizen and a civic participant,
but now also as a pastor, uh, with a
congregation of folks that includes
millionaires, um, but also people that have been on the streets.
>> Loren (12:39):
Yeah. You know, I think the
interesting thing about your book, and you're certainly not the
only person to have spoke to this trend
or written about this trend. Mark Elsden and others have made
great points about this
coming transition in church.
Real Estate, church property.
(13:00):
What do you want to say just to this, this precipice.
I'm not even sure the word, the correct, like
disastrous word to say, uh, about
how you're seeing this trend maybe in your own community,
how you're seeing this nationwide.
>> Speaker D (13:14):
Well, thanks. Yeah. My journey with that
topic, that answer has um, evolved.
It's interesting I think, uh,
fundamentally we all recognize that at the height of
Christendom in the middle part of the last cent,
when uh, Christianity was at the center
of American life, uh, post
war boom, uh, into the 60s and 70s
(13:37):
and 80s, churches
built big ample campuses.
And uh, it wasn't
literally as easy as opening your door. People ah, would
come, but Christianity was very much in the mainstream.
Uh, but now everything is different. And Christianity uh,
is much more on the margins in America, um,
(13:59):
depending on which stripe you practice. Um,
and now uh, so many churches have
aging, very large but very well
situated physical campuses.
And my evolution on that has come
around to realize that um,
I think it's a tough topic for a lot
(14:20):
of traditional church people to
grasp that we have to change our relationship with
real estate and property because we're so
bound up with our buildings. We
can remember that favorite baptism, uh, or
that favorite sonata, or
uh, the fellowship hall where we had so many meals,
(14:40):
or the playground in the back, or the softball field
that nobody has used in years, but we still like to have
a softball field. And um,
this uh, now puts churches in a very
different position which simply will not
probably ever in our lifetimes again
fill up our parking lots and our pews,
(15:01):
uh, as we did last century. That doesn't mean the church is
uh, dying. It just means the church is changing. And
so churches uh, have an opportunity to
rethink their relationship with property,
uh, either uh, out of
their own future sustenance planning,
uh, but hopefully also with a mission involved. And
(15:23):
that opens up uh, once you get
comfortable with that conversation, that can open up some
very exciting conversations and
even new life in a church once they realize
that their properties are no longer just
um, liabilities,
uh, that constantly need repair but
(15:44):
are assets that can be transformed.
>> Loren (15:47):
Right.
I think it's interesting when we think about uh, you
kind of talk about that needing of a change
of relationship between real estate and property or a change of
understanding. Uh, in your book you talk about the
unique role the pastor has in casting vision.
So I want you to speak to that. But I'm also curious when we think
about kind of that uh,
(16:08):
transformative or helping people grieve
that loss of relationship or, uh, loss
of the past. You mentioned, like the. The, you know,
the fellowship hall where someone might have
had big events, the softball fields, the,
uh, baptismals.
How do you help pastors work through,
(16:28):
Lead their congregation through that grieving process?
>> Speaker D (16:32):
Um, I guess, in a word,
respectfully. Uh, it's not an easy job.
Um, people's emotions get so tied up
in church buildings that, uh,
you have to really slow walk that conversation.
Uh, even if a pastor becomes convinced that
perhaps financially, um,
(16:53):
it's not sustainable to maintain buildings as
they are, um, sometimes the numbers
can be pretty compelling. So,
uh, one way that pastors can do that is simply
share the numbers. And so many churches are
looking at bank accounts that they can
count the months until they're depleted.
>> Loren (17:13):
Right.
>> Speaker D (17:13):
Or, or if they. Maybe that's
not the immediacy of the case for another
church. But, uh, if they look
honestly at their mission dollars versus their
property upkeep dollars, you know, it's. It's upside
down. And so the. So the dollars can
make an argument. Um,
but, uh, at the end of the day, it's
(17:35):
the gospel that can set us free
on that. Um, it was
a rare time in American Christianity when we built
all these campuses and come around to understanding
that that's not the only way to be church, and that for hundreds and
hundreds of years, that was not the way
Christians were embodied in the world.
(17:56):
And then, as so many churches in the book told
me, um, there really can
be liberation beyond, uh,
the current conversation of, well, how are we going to fix the
roof and how are we going to fix the organ and,
you know, can we get a daycare in here to
pay the bills? All those very,
(18:18):
uh, kind of.
They're almost captive conversations that ties to,
uh, our real estate in a way, rather than
liberating us to say, what if,
what if? Um,
but mourning has to
come early on, and then the liberation
(18:40):
can come. And it's very much an Easter story.
Um, we have to die to our old selves to
be reborn again. And the book is
full of, uh, examples of churches that have found that
liberation of. When they reimagine
their real estate, they can focus on serving
their neighbor in a way that they hadn't. And that can be
(19:00):
a great joy.
>> Loren (19:02):
Yeah, so I'm thinking about that again,
that pastoral process
of shepherding our congregation. In
your experience, in listening to congregations
and doing it yourself, do you feel like there's. It's kind of
a, I hate to say, step by step, because
we know processes and growth and change is
(19:22):
never like Linear. Right. It's never. You're done
with the morning, now it's time for the vision. But what
have you found that, or have you heard that
it's really important to allow space and
time for morning grieving before you can cast a
vision or can you cast some vision? Allow
space for. Is there, I hate to say again,
process. But what have you seen that works?
>> Speaker D (19:45):
M. Um.
I've seen pastors that are nothing short of
heroic. In the book, Ashley Goff, uh,
at Arlington Presbyterian, talks about
leading her congregation through that and her
predecessor who laid the groundwork.
I think you're asking a great question of what is
(20:05):
that balance between the grieving process and.
It really is that the stages of grief
are universal. They are not
necessarily sequential, but all of
those, uh, emotions are involved.
Uh, but it is, I think, the role of a leader,
uh, to cast a vision to help people
(20:26):
see something beyond, uh, the
buildings as they have become in many
cases, which is just a burden.
Um. Uh, so it's both. And
I think, uh, Loren, that, uh,
uh, the Gospel gives us a vision. And the
gospel lays out, as I recount in
the book, a very clear idea about what God's vision for land
(20:49):
and property are. And that is for the common
good. And so one of the things that pastors can
do is remind people,
uh, both theologically and biblically,
uh, of, uh, how God looks at the
economy and how God looks at land and
property. Um, and, um,
(21:10):
so if. If people are having
a hard time letting go of the property,
sometimes the. The tough job of the
pastor is to say, well, folks, maybe. Maybe we
lost sight, uh, when everything was so
abundant, uh, and
m. Relatively easier than it is today to be
a church. Uh, maybe that anomaly,
(21:33):
uh, was just
that. And, uh. Uh,
so it depends on the congregation and the setting, but it's
part theological, part biblical, part emotional,
part pastoral care, holding the hand of
folks, and then partly, um,
the bold prophetic leadership to say maybe God's
(21:53):
perspective have something different in mind. And
then if folks can catch the light of that,
then they can really be excited.
>> Loren (22:02):
That's great. That's great.
I want to transition this a little bit to thinking outside
the congregation. And as I studied,
you know, development even, broadly speaking,
on a small scale, one of the essential steps, as I
understand it, in land development is working
or at least connecting with the neighbors,
(22:23):
if only for good pr. Right. I'm
thinking about this in the church context,
and I want to hear your perspective here that I think
for good reason,
affordable housing is becoming a really big Thing that a
lot of churches are going after for good reason,
but also speak to the
(22:44):
necessity and the importance of
again connecting with the neighbors, connecting with the
community, uh, and why that's essential.
>> Speaker D (22:55):
Well, ah, I like your choice of
words there Loren. Essential. That is the essence of
a church to be connected to its community. But we can all lose sight of
that sometimes. Um,
location, uh, church and place
has changed over time and so maybe an inner city
church has its members, uh,
(23:16):
driving in from suburbs because they
moved out, um, and therefore they're
driving past the most immediate neighbors and neighborhoods
surrounding the uh, proximity of the church
or the church has been so busy
uh, being internally focused that it
uh, is only partially or selectively
(23:36):
really in touch with its immediate
neighborhood. Uh, again
coming out of that season of abundance, uh,
when um,
we could build churches that
provided lots of programs for our members and didn't
have to necessarily be in touch with our neighbors.
Uh, so um, it can lead to,
(23:59):
to a uh, beautiful reintroduction
to neighborhoods. And yes, it is
smart, uh, from a
community relations to understand that. But it's
vastly much more and primarily missional.
It can, um, if a
congregation says let's go out and talk to our neighbors and
(24:20):
what they need and what we might be able to
provide and how that might fuel a reimagining
of our property, uh, again
that recenters a congregation on
mission, not just paying the
bills and uh, you know, the other things that
sometimes churches get distracted with.
Uh, and that really is the most important
(24:42):
first point I think I would make is, uh, there's all
sorts of reasons for churches to look at
reimagining their property, including
monetization of it. That can help
financially the church sustain
itself. But without mission 1st,
2nd and 3rd and Central at all times.
Without that, churches probably
(25:04):
ought to think hard about whether or not to reimagine their
property and redevelop their property. Uh,
the mission piece has to come first. And to your point
Loren, that's tied to the
neighborhood. Um, and uh,
ah, that's not always easy. Uh, it can
introduce uh,
(25:28):
you know, differences in class
and race and life.
Um, but again that can reground of the church
if it so desires in serving
neighbor.
>> Loren (25:41):
I'm so glad you made that point about mission over
monetization first of all. Second of all,
am I remembering correctly, I think this was in your book, you tell
stories about churches who are thinking like oh let's do
senior housing. And then they talk to the community and they're like
oh, I guess there's not A need for senior housing. So again,
the importance of connecting with the
(26:02):
neighborhood.
>> Speaker D (26:03):
That's right. One of the case studies that um,
I came across was a church that
had an idea that wasn't rooted in community
demand. And so they got so far down the
road in a vision that then they found out
that really didn't fit what the community needed.
The opposite example, uh, that I think is just
(26:26):
remarkable and therefore it's taking a very long
time to evolve. But Westminster Presbyterian church in
Washington D.C. is not far from the
Potomac, not far from the Capitol,
uh, gentrifying neighborhood, um,
and they're reimagining, scraping their
entire almost block
(26:46):
sized, city block sized campus
to come back with housing, but more
importantly recording studios and
other things that will help the youth in
the most immediate surrounding streets and blocks,
you know, find something to do during the day, in the
afternoons and the evenings. So
(27:06):
you know, Westminster's vision will come back, uh,
maybe not at all like people think of as a church. There won't
be some big tall steeple and some big parking lot,
uh, but they will have built what their neighbors
asked for and need. And what
Brian Hamilton, the pastor of Westminster says is,
you know, by getting those uh,
(27:26):
teens off the streets they literally will be saving
lives and what better
testimony for a church. So uh, but
that can take so many forms. It could be a coffee shop, it could be
different kinds of housing, it could be mixed income
housing, it could be, you know, churches have always
been community centers and so hopefully churches can
(27:47):
continue to find ways to
be the place where the AA and the NA meetings
come. But congregations um,
can figure out how to reconfigure themselves
alongside and maybe even around
the needs of the neighborhood. Uh, Arlington
Presbyterian Church,
uh, tore itself down,
(28:09):
built a multi story
affordable housing, uh, project and
then leased space back from
itself in effect because it doesn't
know how long their church is going to be viable. And
I thought that was remarkably faithful to say
our land can be used for the common good and all
(28:30):
we need is a few, you know, a fraction of the
space we need and we're not even
going to make it permanent. Let's see how long we need
this space. But what we know is we've built something the
community is using now. And I've seen many, many
examples of that where it's
selfless and Christ alike in that regard.
>> Loren (28:51):
I mean that does really speak to what you said, I think at the
top, about your own congregation's near
death experience and experiencing now a
resurrected life. I mean I hate to say it's as
simple as that. But is that really what it comes down to? Like, congregations
have to be willing to die? I mean,
this is. Right, the core of the Christian message, I think, in some regard.
(29:11):
Right.
>> Speaker D (29:13):
Easier said than done. Yes, but I believe
so now that's much easier for me to say because this
church did go through a resurrection that was highly
unlikely and a bit like lightning striking. So I can't
say it was
formulaic. Easy peasy. Follow these three easy steps and your
church will be resurrected. Um, but
yes, there's a fundamental theological truth that
(29:35):
when you put one foot in the tomb and you get
a good look, uh, at
what death, so to speak,
looks like, it can be a very liberating experience.
And, uh, at that point, uh,
it can reframe your imagination in a way
to take risks, which is not
(29:56):
a phrase that churches like to use.
But the shoe is on the other foot,
to use a terrible cliche. We are
not in the majority. We are not in the
largesse anymore. A handful of
churches may have big endowments and may be good
for another 10 or 20 years without having to work terribly
hard, but that is the exception. Uh,
(30:19):
what we have is land and property. And in
that possibility,
yeah, I want.
>> Loren (30:27):
To transition this a little bit from the local congregational
level to a more denominational or big church
level. Because you talk about. I, uh,
want to find the. Let me find the direct quote here.
You write that in general, denominational leaders are not
well equipped unto themselves to advise
congregations about possibilities for the
campuses in mission, nor are they well
(30:49):
positioned to manage their own growing real
estate and financial portfolios
with courageous missional imagination for the benefit
of those in need of housing. So I guess,
uh, a, I'm kind of curious, you know, about that quote. And then
B, like, I've had a denominational
leader say to me, like, we're not in the property management
(31:10):
business, so to speak. And I'm wondering, like, should we. Should we
rethink that to be more in the property management business? Does that
make sense?
>> Speaker D (31:17):
Well, it does make sense, and you're right. It's, It's. It's not
an easy, uh, dilemma that
can be solved, but it's just flat
out true. Um, you know,
Baptists, uh, you know, free churches
obviously are unto themselves and they
m. Make whatever decisions they want about their individual
(31:37):
piece of property. But the traditional,
uh, Protestant, uh,
uh, denominations, Presbyterian,
Lutheran, Methodist,
certainly, um, and then even
Episcopalian churches and
hierarchical ecclesiastical structures, they
too are sitting on lots and lots of land. And
(32:00):
I found in my Research that they're all
waking up to this need,
uh, that, um,
there's real possibility here. And how, very
understandably, when I said denominations are ill equipped to handle
it. That's not a slight.
Denominations, uh, are focused on so many other
(32:20):
things. Real estate development, uh,
and nonprofit work. Social work is
incredibly complex. And it's not what we've been
training pastors or ecclesiastical leaders
to learn how to do. But I can look
at Charlotte as a microcosm
example. Uh, Charlotte, North Carolina,
(32:41):
uh, and our presbytery, which is a seven county
presbytery, but it's largely
urban Charlotte, metro Charlotte,
uh, second largest concentration of
Presbyterians and the United States,
um, the most thriving collections of, uh,
Prot. Congregations. But as
Presbyterianism, uh, the
(33:02):
PCUSA has consolidated,
let's say so has the local church,
um, and, uh, our region.
And um, we have gone, uh, in the
last 15 years from,
um, being at an inflection point in our
own staffing as a presbytery staff of
(33:23):
all. We made this presbytery, made a bet on
the next big piece of land that it thought
it could just plant a church in. And it got
caught in the Great Recession in 2008, lost a
Great deal of money, almost bankrupt
the Presbyterian, but simply through
church closings. Ever since then,
(33:45):
The Presbyterian has eight or nine million dollars
in the bank and another 10 or 20 churches that
probably, uh, are looking at
very, uh, existential
questions in the immediate future. And
so whether or not denominations want to be in the
land business. They're going to be.
(34:06):
Uh, land is defaulting back to
denominations as churches
consolidate. And some, uh,
you pick your prediction. One in three, one and four.
One in five congregations is going to close
in the next 10 to 15 years. That's
drastically transformative. And
(34:29):
so, uh, I do believe that
churches, uh, have a lot to learn, denominations have a lot to learn
and are going to be in the land business,
are already in the land business and will be increasingly
in the land business whether or not they want
to be or are prepared.
>> Loren (34:48):
Yeah. Again, this is kind of a hard question.
So feel free to tread lightly as you'd like to.
But I'm wondering, at least from
how I've seen it sometimes, is there almost a perverse
incentive to use kind of an economic word,
for denominations to just sell properties, just to kind
of maintain the institution, to kind of like
(35:10):
slow the decline of the institution,
rather than do the hard work of kind of
investing properties for
these kind of social good topics like,
uh, affordable housing. Because again, it's much
easier just to Offload a property to a
developer for luxury condos than
it is to go through the lihtec and all the
(35:33):
complicated capital stack that you gotta do for developing
affordable housing.
>> Speaker D (35:37):
Sounds like you've done a couple of deals yourself when you go into those
kinds of abbreviated LIHTC and everything. But capital
stacks. Yeah, you speak the language. Um,
I think there is, ah, a tension, and I'm going
to choose to call it a creative tension.
Potential words. Um,
I think that
(35:58):
the risk is that local
adjudicatories,
uh, will realize that
there are, you know, millions, uh,
at close range for a
developer to come along and say, I will take
this property off your hands. M. Um,
or congregations to lean into
(36:20):
that. Um, but, uh,
and maybe
flat out, uh, real estate
transactions are, are legitimate if they're part
of a larger rebirth and transformation of mission.
You know, there's nothing wrong with
m money if you use it for good.
(36:41):
And so, um,
but again, I, I think you hit the nail on the
head. These deals are complex. My
study found that they take, you know, three to five to seven
years on average to be developed. Many
congregations are already on their last breath,
or maybe not that,
(37:01):
but they don't know the first thing about
real estate and housing and social need.
Uh, so it's a tall order and it's
not for everybody to enter into these deals.
I pray that denominational leadership,
uh, and I see it, uh, are working
really hard to catch up fast, to
(37:22):
equip congregations to help them slow down
and not panic. You mentioned
Mark Elsden's book Gone for Good. I
completely endorse it. Uh,
it's an excellent how to book. It sits
alongside m. My book, which has case
studies and biblical and theological as well
as lessons learned. And I think there are other books
(37:45):
in the offing. Um, uh,
there are developers, uh, in states
that have the most acute housing
crises that are learning to speak church.
And that's critical for
them to understand that
churches, sometimes in denominations, sometimes move
(38:05):
slowly. Um, so these deals are
very complex and they can be utterly exhausting.
Ours has been amazing and exhausting.
Uh, you know, we're weeks out from welcoming
our, um, of neighbors onto our
campus. But there have been many times when
we were just about spent, uh, having
(38:25):
faced the next hurdle, much less a,
uh, pandemic.
Um, so yes, there's a conflict
that, um,
the nominations are going to have to learn very
quickly and I think can obtain the
expertise, teach they need,
(38:47):
but to bring that in house or
find it very close at hand and then developers to learn
how to speak church and work with
congregations so that they know it's not a quick
turnaround, but can, you know, amazing things
can happen and are happening, uh, around the
country in all kinds of housing,
(39:08):
uh, and property transformation
examples.
>> Loren (39:12):
Yeah. And I'm as. As we're talking here, I am,
I'm looking on Google Maps of your own
congregation,
Caldwell Presbyterian. It's funny enough that
when you. With Google Maps, I can kind of look
on different time periods and see the old Belk
Hall. And now what's the new building here called?
>> Speaker D (39:32):
Hope, uh, Hall. That's right.
>> Loren (39:33):
Hope Hall.
>> Speaker D (39:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:34):
Yeah. So a beautiful new
construction that is going to house folks.
Do you want to say anything about that?
>> Speaker D (39:42):
Absolutely. That's a different building. Um,
but, yeah, we've been able to transform our property
in multiple ways. But, um,
there's a long building that runs down one side of the property,
if you're looking at it on Google Earth, and that's the old
education wing, and that's the one that we're,
um, gutting and, uh,
(40:03):
turning into 21 studio apartments.
>> Loren (40:05):
Wow. So to summarize, if
I can, I. I'm thinking again just about
denominational leadership. And of course, like you mentioned, this
kind of depends based on the polity of the
denomination of the church tradition. But it really
sounds like, just from your own experience,
that discernment and helping people discern
(40:26):
is really like the most essential step.
>> Speaker D (40:29):
You're right, Loren. Uh, without a clear
commitment to a missional cause
and vision that is compelling to the
congregation, compelling enough to help them
hang in there through the
seven years, the highs and lows and the
frustrations and, uh, and the joys
of it. Um, but in that is
(40:52):
rebirth. And in that is kind of a.
This is a pretentious way to think about it, but almost a
purification of what
churches can be and do about.
And, um, you know, certainly
congregations have to maintain a focus
on, uh, taking care of their own
flock. There's no question about that.
(41:14):
But, uh, at the same time, there's new life
in, uh, shedding our old skin
and turning to neighbor
and walking with them. We can be
reborn. Um,
m. The movement is still early.
Uh, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Uh, I
(41:35):
don't suggest this undertaking, uh, for
everybody, but for those churches that catch the
vis. And really can commit to,
uh, a new missional purpose,
uh, it can be, um,
resurrecting.
>> Loren (41:51):
Yeah. Well, the book is Building
Belonging, the church's call to create community and to
house our neighbors. Recommend the book
and uh, sure enough, he has a blurb
recommendation on the back of the book from Mark Elsden. So
thank you so much. Um, let's take a quick break
here and come back with some closing questions.
(42:13):
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn, so really
appreciate the conversation. Uh, these closing
questions, we always tell folks, you can take them as seriously or not as
you'd like to. That being said, I do want to kind of ask
a real estate type question because
with this Pope question, again, some people take this
more seriously than others. Uh, some people want to
(42:33):
sell all the land. Uh, if you had,
you know, significant control, let's say, over
Catholic.
>> Speaker D (42:40):
Ah.
>> Loren (42:40):
Or another humongous church, denominations of real
estate per se, uh, what would be, maybe what
would one thing you'd want to accomplish with that
real estate in a day?
And if you want to just answer the Pope question too, that's okay.
>> Speaker D (42:57):
Well, I suppose I'll just step right
into it. I would love to,
in 50 years to come back. I won't be here, but to
come back and see church properties
that aren't recognizably church properties,
but that still has a congregation. But,
um, have all kinds of things that reflect
(43:20):
the needs and the wants and the lives and the hopes
and the dreams of their neighbors and their neighborhoods.
And there's cities. Um,
uh, one interesting thing about this is
that city governments, local county governments
are really catching this wave and leaning
into how to equip churches to do
this. Um, so, uh, if I were
(43:43):
Pope, um,
I might make it different. I might make it mayor or
governor. Uh, sure. California has
passed a bill that allows churches to develop their
properties by. Right. That is, if they're doing
something for the community and the common good, they don't have
to go through zoning, uh, laws. I would love to
(44:03):
see, uh, that kind of
bill flourish everywhere. I would love for
cities to understand and
simplify zoning. Um, we can
build our way out of this housing crisis. It's going to take a
lot. But along the way, we're not just
building housing, but we can build communities by
(44:24):
bringing back, uh, diversity
of race and class and life experience
into the neighborhoods that are now so highly
segregated.
>> Loren (44:34):
Yes. I should say, as we're recording this,
Yigbe is yes, in God's
backyard, as was. California is also
working through the process in my neck of the woods in Colorado.
Uh, so if you're listening to this in Colorado,
I can't remember when this will come out, but say a
word to your state representative
(44:56):
to try to support that, uh, because
I was just at a meeting a couple
weeks, months, I can't remember ago, and
there's a testimony from a church, and they talked
about how much money they spent just on the
rezoning, how much effort,
how tedious that process was alone just on the
rezoning. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
>> Speaker D (45:18):
Right.
>> Loren (45:18):
I'm glad you mentioned that.
>> Speaker D (45:19):
That's great for Colorado. There are some fabulous
examples in Denver, and I'm delighted to hear that bill
is advancing there. We, um. I've
got a friend who's writing, uh, a bill like that in North
Carolina right now, so we're years away. But I'm
delighted for.
>> Loren (45:36):
I want to ask. I'm going off script here. I want to ask because I think
I meant to ask this when the denominational question, too.
I've m. A lot of my affordable housing experience
comes in a type of social work context. And
I'm curious, do we, as
denominations,
as seminaries, the institution need to
(45:57):
rethink in some regard the role of
pastor and church as,
uh, more of a kind of social work model? And again, I'm someone who
believes strongly in the gathered community, worship
and discipleship. But could we rethink our.
Are churches even church plants, let's
say, as more of like a really communal
(46:18):
model? Like, do you think there. There's opportunity for
that?
>> Speaker D (46:21):
I think there's great opportunity for that. Um,
you know, for a young person to be going into ministry now,
um, they better understand that, you
know, their father's church and their grandfather's church or their mother's
church and their grandmother's church are
increasingly rare.
And so live into the chance to be
(46:43):
a different kind of a pastor, including social work,
including community organizing.
That's a direction that I think the body of
Christ can flourish in, as it has in past
eras. Um, but absolutely. Um,
and we have tried to prepare our congregation
for years now to understand what religion,
(47:06):
what it's going to be like to have 21 folks who are chronically
homeless move onto our campus and how do we
understand their walks of life? Um, so it's not just
pastors. It can be members too.
But yes, I would love to see seminaries and others,
uh, prepare churches just as
intently for community work as we do,
(47:28):
uh, understanding Bart and Calvin
in doctrine.
>> Loren (47:32):
Yeah.
Speaking of dead theologians, do you have a
dead theologian or historical Christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
>> Speaker D (47:42):
Uh, I guess there are three. Uh,
gotta go with Jesus trying to understand
who the historical Jesus was? Um,
these days I'd love to, um, have Bonhoeffer come
back to life and, uh, speak to America.
Um, but I'm also very intrigued with Paul.
Um,
(48:03):
um, if you read the depth
and breadth of his work, there are some things that I know, some
people categorize as
bashing, um, types of scriptures, uh, but
then you read Galatians 3, 26, 27, 28, and he says,
in Christ, there's neither male nor female, slave nor free,
Greek nor Jew. And, uh, you think about that kind
(48:25):
of intersectional inclusivity, uh, in the
church. And, uh, I want to know
Paul,
uh, he was a
fascinating guy. And, uh, like Jesus, um, I think
we just have, um, kind of gray outlines of
who Paul really was. And so I'm curious.
>> Loren (48:45):
Yeah. Um, what do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (48:57):
Some people would say, you know, it's the.
We're following the arc of
Rome, uh, and, um,
nearing America's
unhappy, uh, ending.
I believe too much in hope. Uh,
I have to hope that America will still wake,
(49:19):
uh, up and shake off, uh, its
lethargy, uh, and acceptance of
the profound, uh,
class differences we have and
refocus, um, on the common good and, uh,
pray that we can do that in
a way that is transformative and nonviolent.
>> Loren (49:43):
To that point then, and I suppose you
shared some of it right there, but what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity?
>> Speaker D (49:52):
That it can be, um,
transformed. Um, and I think it's happening,
um,
it's throwing off its shell, um,
of the last century when we are
in a very different circumstance.
I see churches and pastors and, to
(50:15):
your point, community organizers and social workers,
uh, doing remarkable things that,
to me look much more like what
Jesus did day to day,
uh, than perhaps when, uh,
the church was much more closely
aligned with empire and capitalism.
>> Loren (50:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this
conversation. Uh, thank you so much for your time. Do you want
to tell folks, uh, how they can connect with you? Get the book? Any
of that?
>> Speaker D (50:46):
Well, uh, gosh, thank you. Um. Um,
I suppose the easiest thing to do is Google me.
Um, uh, there's a former
Canadian banker that has my name, but other than that,
um, um, I'm one of the few
John Cleghorns out in Google land.
Uh, I have another book that came out just a few years ago
as well, called Resurrecting Church. And it looks at
(51:09):
the history, uh, of some of the diverse
churches in the PCUSA and how
they're resurrecting through diversity.
Um, but, um,
I truly am delighted to be in touch with, uh,
anyone, uh, that would um,
like to reach out and I would welcome that
(51:30):
chance. And um, know that I still have a
lot to learn. I'm a straight white,
highly educated, affluent, uh, older
white guys. So there's a lot I can learn from other folks.
>> Loren (51:42):
Well, I really appreciate your, really appreciate the time
the conversation. Always leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (51:50):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (51:58):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast. This podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
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episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
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(52:20):
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leave a review. It really helps us get this out to
more people. Thanks. And go in PE.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
with John Cleghorn. John became
pastor of Caldwell Presbyterian in
2008 after 25 years in banking
and journalism. He has served Caldwell
as it rebounded from almost closing to become
a vibrant, diverse, mission driven congregation
(01:06):
centered on the love and justice of Jesus Christ.
His latest book, Building the
Church's Call to Create Community and House Our
Neighbors, springs from his congregation's
experience and his national research into
the emerging movement of faith based
organizations building affordable housing on
(01:27):
their property. Building Belonging
blends theology and Bible study with
case studies and lessons learned from the movement.
A native of Atlanta, he has lived in
Charlotte since 1986 and has
served on a wide array of non profit agency
boards in the religious and human services field
(01:47):
at the local and national levels. He is
married to Kelly, a kindergarten teacher,
and has two adult children. He holds a
Doctorate in Ministry from Pittsburgh Theological
Seminary, a Master of Divinity from
Union Presbyterian Seminary, and a
Bachelor of Arts from Washington and Lee University.
(02:08):
His first book, Resurrecting where
justice and Diversity Meet Radical welcome
and Healing Hope, came out in 2020.
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren,
(02:29):
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:55):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
today the Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (03:04):
Thank you, Lorne. I'm really delighted to be here.
>> Loren (03:07):
Great. Looking forward to having this conversation. Is there anything
else you want to say about yourself? Uh, maybe. What part of the country do
you come from? Uh, right now?
>> Speaker D (03:15):
Well, I am a lifelong Southerner,
uh, and I try to live beyond that, but I, uh, was
born in Atlanta, have lived my adult life In Charlotte,
have been all over the country. Um,
native of this area and uh,
very aware of the South's pros and cons.
Mhm.
>> Loren (03:33):
Mhm. Yeah. Well thanks so much for being here. Looking
forward to talking more. Share if you would, just about your
faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that
looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:43):
Well, thank you. Um, um,
it's been ah, an adventure to say the least and one
I'm very grateful for. I grew up in
Atlanta in um, a reasonably
affluent, moderate, um, to progressive
ah, church. Um, that really to me,
um, as a kid and then as a teenager I
was not aware of those kinds of
(04:05):
labels. To me it was a community, it was a family that
embraced me and uh, single, um,
mother, um, and um, was
there um, every Sunday. My mother was
very involved and then I became very involved
as a youth elder. And so it had a
profound influence on shaping me
(04:26):
and uh, probably planting seeds that later
sprouts sprouted in terms of my own sense of call.
Um, but of course by the
time I got into ministry in my 40s,
uh, the punch bowl that uh,
had been the largesse and the
mainstream Christianity was not there anymore.
(04:48):
So it's been a fun ride to adapt and
adjust. But um, um. I'm
very much ah, a cradle
Presbyterian and uh,
thankful for that.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Share if you would, a spiritual
practice that's meaningful for you.
>> Speaker D (05:06):
Well, thank you. Right now I'm trying to focus very
much on um, living
into my finiteness, uh, reading
a book called Meditations for Mortals that
I heard about. And uh,
it embraces the
fact that a lot of us as activists and advocates
(05:27):
live in trying to overdo and
uh, therefore not get as much done
and run ourselves ragged. So I'm at
the phase in my career where I'm trying to very much
concentrate on uh,
uh, living a robust life that
is not uninformed, uh, about limitations.
>> Loren (05:49):
That sounds very wise and prudent.
I know that the struggle is just as I look to my
parents, you know, thinking uh, about how they
perhaps not as well as I'd like them to think, uh,
about their own limitations in life,
uh, and as they near the end of their. Their working
(06:10):
ages and careers.
>> Speaker D (06:13):
Well, part of it here is that this congregation,
uh, is so passionate about so many different
things. And so my, my journey in that
regard is the church's journey. Uh,
the church takes on very big,
audacious uh, things. Um,
uh, but we can't. We've got to figure out how to
(06:34):
uh, run the race at a pace where we can
finish.
>> Loren (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's smart. Well, I'm
excited to have this conversation. John is the author of
the book Building the Church's Call to
Create Community and House Our Neighbors.
So maybe if you want to begin just
by, as you do in the book, kind of just telling the story of your
congregation and then how the book came about
(06:58):
through that.
>> Speaker D (06:59):
Absolutely. Thanks. Um, indeed. Um,
this church
went um, through sort of a near death experience,
uh, and then rebounded and it's come back to life as
a diverse and missional and intersectional
church. And early on in its
resurrected ah, life we have a
(07:20):
campus that once housed a
congregation of 1100 members. And so we are
blessed with uh, a lot of space and have tried to use
that very missionally and creatively.
And uh, for three and a half years
housed a women's shelter in one of our
buildings. And at about that time that it moved on
to a more permanent suitable site. We were a
(07:43):
stopgap site. But uh, we also
as a church were celebrating our centennial
and the congregation slowed down and
had the audacity, uh, just having been kind of
brought back from the grave to say what shall we do with our
second century? And uh, uh,
we looked at a variety of big ideas, middle
(08:04):
ideas, small ideas. But the one that
resonated was that we had missed uh,
having the women in the shelter. Um, and so
we took a good hard look at a 14,000
square foot building, uh, every church has
one, the big Sunday school wing with lots of
classrooms, and decided to in
fact go on housing and
(08:27):
uh, dedicate that to helping address
the affordable housing crisis. Now that was
10, 11 years ago and it's gotten so much more acute.
But uh, the book comes out
in part our journey, journey, uh, in
part my own, uh, interest as a former
reporter to understand the national
(08:49):
emergence of this movement and to trace
it, uh, which I used a sabbatical for.
And uh, then to try and capture the
movement, um, early on
as it is, uh, to share with other churches that
might be thinking about this same calling.
Um, and uh, the movement has really
(09:09):
just skyrocketed. My book focuses
uh, particularly on churches that
look at putting housing on their property.
There are many ways for churches to be
involved in the housing crisis. My book,
uh, is the first kind of case study,
well set of case studies to look at
(09:31):
different ways that churches have done that so far.
And uh, ever since then,
uh, learn of yet more examples. So it's
been a fascinating movement in its infancy to try
and kind of document.
>> Loren (09:45):
Yeah, I'm curious I'm curious if you can kind of
share about. I mean, I think it's been
well documented, but just. Just to summarize
about kind of the housing crisis writ large. I
mean it seems like every time we think it, it can't get worse,
things can get worse. So how have you seen that play out?
Um, and how has that impacted your ministry and your
(10:06):
con. Kind of missional impact
or missional motives?
>> Speaker D (10:13):
Mhm. Well, it's a strange kind of
convergence and weave of, I guess, my own
personal journey with that subject. In
the 80s I was a business reporter for the newspaper here and
I covered housing and then found myself being
drawn more into direct community work and was involved in
some of the earliest affordable housing dialogues
here in Charlotte when relative to the problem we have
(10:35):
now was hardly anything. But
uh, found
myself being interested in that 35 years
ago. Um, and then as you have
pointed out, it's just become, um, a
kitchen table topic now.
But it wasn't necessarily four to five
(10:55):
years ago. And so as we leaned into
understanding that Charlotte had a budding
crisis, the nation's crisis also
sort of blossomed, uh, in all the wrong.
All the way to the point that, uh, in last year's
presidential election, the first time that I can
remember, both candidates were
(11:17):
talking about a housing crisis in their stunt speeches.
Um, and so it touches every county
and every burb in America, whether
it's urban or rural, uh, people
making minimum wage or even uh, a
basic livable wage cannot afford decent
housing in America. And um,
(11:39):
so, um, Charlotte has uh,
become my second home. And
I, uh, have
kind of a passionate relationship with Charlotte. I love
it, but I want it to do better. And it,
uh, resembles a lot of cities in that,
uh, it's economically very
(12:00):
successful and growing, uh,
one of the fastest growing cities in America. But
it loves to say, uh, uh, our
boosters love to say that we welcome 140
people a day to Charlotte. What we don't
talk about is how many people we're pricing out
of Charlotte. And those tend to be the people that do the hard
(12:20):
work in our city. So I've sort
of followed it both as, um, a
citizen and a civic participant,
but now also as a pastor, uh, with a
congregation of folks that includes
millionaires, um, but also people that have been on the streets.
>> Loren (12:39):
Yeah. You know, I think the
interesting thing about your book, and you're certainly not the
only person to have spoke to this trend
or written about this trend. Mark Elsden and others have made
great points about this
coming transition in church.
Real Estate, church property.
(13:00):
What do you want to say just to this, this precipice.
I'm not even sure the word, the correct, like
disastrous word to say, uh, about
how you're seeing this trend maybe in your own community,
how you're seeing this nationwide.
>> Speaker D (13:14):
Well, thanks. Yeah. My journey with that
topic, that answer has um, evolved.
It's interesting I think, uh,
fundamentally we all recognize that at the height of
Christendom in the middle part of the last cent,
when uh, Christianity was at the center
of American life, uh, post
war boom, uh, into the 60s and 70s
(13:37):
and 80s, churches
built big ample campuses.
And uh, it wasn't
literally as easy as opening your door. People ah, would
come, but Christianity was very much in the mainstream.
Uh, but now everything is different. And Christianity uh,
is much more on the margins in America, um,
(13:59):
depending on which stripe you practice. Um,
and now uh, so many churches have
aging, very large but very well
situated physical campuses.
And my evolution on that has come
around to realize that um,
I think it's a tough topic for a lot
(14:20):
of traditional church people to
grasp that we have to change our relationship with
real estate and property because we're so
bound up with our buildings. We
can remember that favorite baptism, uh, or
that favorite sonata, or
uh, the fellowship hall where we had so many meals,
(14:40):
or the playground in the back, or the softball field
that nobody has used in years, but we still like to have
a softball field. And um,
this uh, now puts churches in a very
different position which simply will not
probably ever in our lifetimes again
fill up our parking lots and our pews,
(15:01):
uh, as we did last century. That doesn't mean the church is
uh, dying. It just means the church is changing. And
so churches uh, have an opportunity to
rethink their relationship with property,
uh, either uh, out of
their own future sustenance planning,
uh, but hopefully also with a mission involved. And
(15:23):
that opens up uh, once you get
comfortable with that conversation, that can open up some
very exciting conversations and
even new life in a church once they realize
that their properties are no longer just
um, liabilities,
uh, that constantly need repair but
(15:44):
are assets that can be transformed.
>> Loren (15:47):
Right.
I think it's interesting when we think about uh, you
kind of talk about that needing of a change
of relationship between real estate and property or a change of
understanding. Uh, in your book you talk about the
unique role the pastor has in casting vision.
So I want you to speak to that. But I'm also curious when we think
about kind of that uh,
(16:08):
transformative or helping people grieve
that loss of relationship or, uh, loss
of the past. You mentioned, like the. The, you know,
the fellowship hall where someone might have
had big events, the softball fields, the,
uh, baptismals.
How do you help pastors work through,
(16:28):
Lead their congregation through that grieving process?
>> Speaker D (16:32):
Um, I guess, in a word,
respectfully. Uh, it's not an easy job.
Um, people's emotions get so tied up
in church buildings that, uh,
you have to really slow walk that conversation.
Uh, even if a pastor becomes convinced that
perhaps financially, um,
(16:53):
it's not sustainable to maintain buildings as
they are, um, sometimes the numbers
can be pretty compelling. So,
uh, one way that pastors can do that is simply
share the numbers. And so many churches are
looking at bank accounts that they can
count the months until they're depleted.
>> Loren (17:13):
Right.
>> Speaker D (17:13):
Or, or if they. Maybe that's
not the immediacy of the case for another
church. But, uh, if they look
honestly at their mission dollars versus their
property upkeep dollars, you know, it's. It's upside
down. And so the. So the dollars can
make an argument. Um,
but, uh, at the end of the day, it's
(17:35):
the gospel that can set us free
on that. Um, it was
a rare time in American Christianity when we built
all these campuses and come around to understanding
that that's not the only way to be church, and that for hundreds and
hundreds of years, that was not the way
Christians were embodied in the world.
(17:56):
And then, as so many churches in the book told
me, um, there really can
be liberation beyond, uh,
the current conversation of, well, how are we going to fix the
roof and how are we going to fix the organ and,
you know, can we get a daycare in here to
pay the bills? All those very,
(18:18):
uh, kind of.
They're almost captive conversations that ties to,
uh, our real estate in a way, rather than
liberating us to say, what if,
what if? Um,
but mourning has to
come early on, and then the liberation
(18:40):
can come. And it's very much an Easter story.
Um, we have to die to our old selves to
be reborn again. And the book is
full of, uh, examples of churches that have found that
liberation of. When they reimagine
their real estate, they can focus on serving
their neighbor in a way that they hadn't. And that can be
(19:00):
a great joy.
>> Loren (19:02):
Yeah, so I'm thinking about that again,
that pastoral process
of shepherding our congregation. In
your experience, in listening to congregations
and doing it yourself, do you feel like there's. It's kind of
a, I hate to say, step by step, because
we know processes and growth and change is
(19:22):
never like Linear. Right. It's never. You're done
with the morning, now it's time for the vision. But what
have you found that, or have you heard that
it's really important to allow space and
time for morning grieving before you can cast a
vision or can you cast some vision? Allow
space for. Is there, I hate to say again,
process. But what have you seen that works?
>> Speaker D (19:45):
M. Um.
I've seen pastors that are nothing short of
heroic. In the book, Ashley Goff, uh,
at Arlington Presbyterian, talks about
leading her congregation through that and her
predecessor who laid the groundwork.
I think you're asking a great question of what is
(20:05):
that balance between the grieving process and.
It really is that the stages of grief
are universal. They are not
necessarily sequential, but all of
those, uh, emotions are involved.
Uh, but it is, I think, the role of a leader,
uh, to cast a vision to help people
(20:26):
see something beyond, uh, the
buildings as they have become in many
cases, which is just a burden.
Um. Uh, so it's both. And
I think, uh, Loren, that, uh,
uh, the Gospel gives us a vision. And the
gospel lays out, as I recount in
the book, a very clear idea about what God's vision for land
(20:49):
and property are. And that is for the common
good. And so one of the things that pastors can
do is remind people,
uh, both theologically and biblically,
uh, of, uh, how God looks at the
economy and how God looks at land and
property. Um, and, um,
(21:10):
so if. If people are having
a hard time letting go of the property,
sometimes the. The tough job of the
pastor is to say, well, folks, maybe. Maybe we
lost sight, uh, when everything was so
abundant, uh, and
m. Relatively easier than it is today to be
a church. Uh, maybe that anomaly,
(21:33):
uh, was just
that. And, uh. Uh,
so it depends on the congregation and the setting, but it's
part theological, part biblical, part emotional,
part pastoral care, holding the hand of
folks, and then partly, um,
the bold prophetic leadership to say maybe God's
(21:53):
perspective have something different in mind. And
then if folks can catch the light of that,
then they can really be excited.
>> Loren (22:02):
That's great. That's great.
I want to transition this a little bit to thinking outside
the congregation. And as I studied,
you know, development even, broadly speaking,
on a small scale, one of the essential steps, as I
understand it, in land development is working
or at least connecting with the neighbors,
(22:23):
if only for good pr. Right. I'm
thinking about this in the church context,
and I want to hear your perspective here that I think
for good reason,
affordable housing is becoming a really big Thing that a
lot of churches are going after for good reason,
but also speak to the
(22:44):
necessity and the importance of
again connecting with the neighbors, connecting with the
community, uh, and why that's essential.
>> Speaker D (22:55):
Well, ah, I like your choice of
words there Loren. Essential. That is the essence of
a church to be connected to its community. But we can all lose sight of
that sometimes. Um,
location, uh, church and place
has changed over time and so maybe an inner city
church has its members, uh,
(23:16):
driving in from suburbs because they
moved out, um, and therefore they're
driving past the most immediate neighbors and neighborhoods
surrounding the uh, proximity of the church
or the church has been so busy
uh, being internally focused that it
uh, is only partially or selectively
(23:36):
really in touch with its immediate
neighborhood. Uh, again
coming out of that season of abundance, uh,
when um,
we could build churches that
provided lots of programs for our members and didn't
have to necessarily be in touch with our neighbors.
Uh, so um, it can lead to,
(23:59):
to a uh, beautiful reintroduction
to neighborhoods. And yes, it is
smart, uh, from a
community relations to understand that. But it's
vastly much more and primarily missional.
It can, um, if a
congregation says let's go out and talk to our neighbors and
(24:20):
what they need and what we might be able to
provide and how that might fuel a reimagining
of our property, uh, again
that recenters a congregation on
mission, not just paying the
bills and uh, you know, the other things that
sometimes churches get distracted with.
Uh, and that really is the most important
(24:42):
first point I think I would make is, uh, there's all
sorts of reasons for churches to look at
reimagining their property, including
monetization of it. That can help
financially the church sustain
itself. But without mission 1st,
2nd and 3rd and Central at all times.
Without that, churches probably
(25:04):
ought to think hard about whether or not to reimagine their
property and redevelop their property. Uh,
the mission piece has to come first. And to your point
Loren, that's tied to the
neighborhood. Um, and uh,
ah, that's not always easy. Uh, it can
introduce uh,
(25:28):
you know, differences in class
and race and life.
Um, but again that can reground of the church
if it so desires in serving
neighbor.
>> Loren (25:41):
I'm so glad you made that point about mission over
monetization first of all. Second of all,
am I remembering correctly, I think this was in your book, you tell
stories about churches who are thinking like oh let's do
senior housing. And then they talk to the community and they're like
oh, I guess there's not A need for senior housing. So again,
the importance of connecting with the
(26:02):
neighborhood.
>> Speaker D (26:03):
That's right. One of the case studies that um,
I came across was a church that
had an idea that wasn't rooted in community
demand. And so they got so far down the
road in a vision that then they found out
that really didn't fit what the community needed.
The opposite example, uh, that I think is just
(26:26):
remarkable and therefore it's taking a very long
time to evolve. But Westminster Presbyterian church in
Washington D.C. is not far from the
Potomac, not far from the Capitol,
uh, gentrifying neighborhood, um,
and they're reimagining, scraping their
entire almost block
(26:46):
sized, city block sized campus
to come back with housing, but more
importantly recording studios and
other things that will help the youth in
the most immediate surrounding streets and blocks,
you know, find something to do during the day, in the
afternoons and the evenings. So
(27:06):
you know, Westminster's vision will come back, uh,
maybe not at all like people think of as a church. There won't
be some big tall steeple and some big parking lot,
uh, but they will have built what their neighbors
asked for and need. And what
Brian Hamilton, the pastor of Westminster says is,
you know, by getting those uh,
(27:26):
teens off the streets they literally will be saving
lives and what better
testimony for a church. So uh, but
that can take so many forms. It could be a coffee shop, it could be
different kinds of housing, it could be mixed income
housing, it could be, you know, churches have always
been community centers and so hopefully churches can
(27:47):
continue to find ways to
be the place where the AA and the NA meetings
come. But congregations um,
can figure out how to reconfigure themselves
alongside and maybe even around
the needs of the neighborhood. Uh, Arlington
Presbyterian Church,
uh, tore itself down,
(28:09):
built a multi story
affordable housing, uh, project and
then leased space back from
itself in effect because it doesn't
know how long their church is going to be viable. And
I thought that was remarkably faithful to say
our land can be used for the common good and all
(28:30):
we need is a few, you know, a fraction of the
space we need and we're not even
going to make it permanent. Let's see how long we need
this space. But what we know is we've built something the
community is using now. And I've seen many, many
examples of that where it's
selfless and Christ alike in that regard.
>> Loren (28:51):
I mean that does really speak to what you said, I think at the
top, about your own congregation's near
death experience and experiencing now a
resurrected life. I mean I hate to say it's as
simple as that. But is that really what it comes down to? Like, congregations
have to be willing to die? I mean,
this is. Right, the core of the Christian message, I think, in some regard.
(29:11):
Right.
>> Speaker D (29:13):
Easier said than done. Yes, but I believe
so now that's much easier for me to say because this
church did go through a resurrection that was highly
unlikely and a bit like lightning striking. So I can't
say it was
formulaic. Easy peasy. Follow these three easy steps and your
church will be resurrected. Um, but
yes, there's a fundamental theological truth that
(29:35):
when you put one foot in the tomb and you get
a good look, uh, at
what death, so to speak,
looks like, it can be a very liberating experience.
And, uh, at that point, uh,
it can reframe your imagination in a way
to take risks, which is not
(29:56):
a phrase that churches like to use.
But the shoe is on the other foot,
to use a terrible cliche. We are
not in the majority. We are not in the
largesse anymore. A handful of
churches may have big endowments and may be good
for another 10 or 20 years without having to work terribly
hard, but that is the exception. Uh,
(30:19):
what we have is land and property. And in
that possibility,
yeah, I want.
>> Loren (30:27):
To transition this a little bit from the local congregational
level to a more denominational or big church
level. Because you talk about. I, uh,
want to find the. Let me find the direct quote here.
You write that in general, denominational leaders are not
well equipped unto themselves to advise
congregations about possibilities for the
campuses in mission, nor are they well
(30:49):
positioned to manage their own growing real
estate and financial portfolios
with courageous missional imagination for the benefit
of those in need of housing. So I guess,
uh, a, I'm kind of curious, you know, about that quote. And then
B, like, I've had a denominational
leader say to me, like, we're not in the property management
(31:10):
business, so to speak. And I'm wondering, like, should we. Should we
rethink that to be more in the property management business? Does that
make sense?
>> Speaker D (31:17):
Well, it does make sense, and you're right. It's, It's. It's not
an easy, uh, dilemma that
can be solved, but it's just flat
out true. Um, you know,
Baptists, uh, you know, free churches
obviously are unto themselves and they
m. Make whatever decisions they want about their individual
(31:37):
piece of property. But the traditional,
uh, Protestant, uh,
uh, denominations, Presbyterian,
Lutheran, Methodist,
certainly, um, and then even
Episcopalian churches and
hierarchical ecclesiastical structures, they
too are sitting on lots and lots of land. And
(32:00):
I found in my Research that they're all
waking up to this need,
uh, that, um,
there's real possibility here. And how, very
understandably, when I said denominations are ill equipped to handle
it. That's not a slight.
Denominations, uh, are focused on so many other
(32:20):
things. Real estate development, uh,
and nonprofit work. Social work is
incredibly complex. And it's not what we've been
training pastors or ecclesiastical leaders
to learn how to do. But I can look
at Charlotte as a microcosm
example. Uh, Charlotte, North Carolina,
(32:41):
uh, and our presbytery, which is a seven county
presbytery, but it's largely
urban Charlotte, metro Charlotte,
uh, second largest concentration of
Presbyterians and the United States,
um, the most thriving collections of, uh,
Prot. Congregations. But as
Presbyterianism, uh, the
(33:02):
PCUSA has consolidated,
let's say so has the local church,
um, and, uh, our region.
And um, we have gone, uh, in the
last 15 years from,
um, being at an inflection point in our
own staffing as a presbytery staff of
(33:23):
all. We made this presbytery, made a bet on
the next big piece of land that it thought
it could just plant a church in. And it got
caught in the Great Recession in 2008, lost a
Great deal of money, almost bankrupt
the Presbyterian, but simply through
church closings. Ever since then,
(33:45):
The Presbyterian has eight or nine million dollars
in the bank and another 10 or 20 churches that
probably, uh, are looking at
very, uh, existential
questions in the immediate future. And
so whether or not denominations want to be in the
land business. They're going to be.
(34:06):
Uh, land is defaulting back to
denominations as churches
consolidate. And some, uh,
you pick your prediction. One in three, one and four.
One in five congregations is going to close
in the next 10 to 15 years. That's
drastically transformative. And
(34:29):
so, uh, I do believe that
churches, uh, have a lot to learn, denominations have a lot to learn
and are going to be in the land business,
are already in the land business and will be increasingly
in the land business whether or not they want
to be or are prepared.
>> Loren (34:48):
Yeah. Again, this is kind of a hard question.
So feel free to tread lightly as you'd like to.
But I'm wondering, at least from
how I've seen it sometimes, is there almost a perverse
incentive to use kind of an economic word,
for denominations to just sell properties, just to kind
of maintain the institution, to kind of like
(35:10):
slow the decline of the institution,
rather than do the hard work of kind of
investing properties for
these kind of social good topics like,
uh, affordable housing. Because again, it's much
easier just to Offload a property to a
developer for luxury condos than
it is to go through the lihtec and all the
(35:33):
complicated capital stack that you gotta do for developing
affordable housing.
>> Speaker D (35:37):
Sounds like you've done a couple of deals yourself when you go into those
kinds of abbreviated LIHTC and everything. But capital
stacks. Yeah, you speak the language. Um,
I think there is, ah, a tension, and I'm going
to choose to call it a creative tension.
Potential words. Um,
I think that
(35:58):
the risk is that local
adjudicatories,
uh, will realize that
there are, you know, millions, uh,
at close range for a
developer to come along and say, I will take
this property off your hands. M. Um,
or congregations to lean into
(36:20):
that. Um, but, uh,
and maybe
flat out, uh, real estate
transactions are, are legitimate if they're part
of a larger rebirth and transformation of mission.
You know, there's nothing wrong with
m money if you use it for good.
(36:41):
And so, um,
but again, I, I think you hit the nail on the
head. These deals are complex. My
study found that they take, you know, three to five to seven
years on average to be developed. Many
congregations are already on their last breath,
or maybe not that,
(37:01):
but they don't know the first thing about
real estate and housing and social need.
Uh, so it's a tall order and it's
not for everybody to enter into these deals.
I pray that denominational leadership,
uh, and I see it, uh, are working
really hard to catch up fast, to
(37:22):
equip congregations to help them slow down
and not panic. You mentioned
Mark Elsden's book Gone for Good. I
completely endorse it. Uh,
it's an excellent how to book. It sits
alongside m. My book, which has case
studies and biblical and theological as well
as lessons learned. And I think there are other books
(37:45):
in the offing. Um, uh,
there are developers, uh, in states
that have the most acute housing
crises that are learning to speak church.
And that's critical for
them to understand that
churches, sometimes in denominations, sometimes move
(38:05):
slowly. Um, so these deals are
very complex and they can be utterly exhausting.
Ours has been amazing and exhausting.
Uh, you know, we're weeks out from welcoming
our, um, of neighbors onto our
campus. But there have been many times when
we were just about spent, uh, having
(38:25):
faced the next hurdle, much less a,
uh, pandemic.
Um, so yes, there's a conflict
that, um,
the nominations are going to have to learn very
quickly and I think can obtain the
expertise, teach they need,
(38:47):
but to bring that in house or
find it very close at hand and then developers to learn
how to speak church and work with
congregations so that they know it's not a quick
turnaround, but can, you know, amazing things
can happen and are happening, uh, around the
country in all kinds of housing,
(39:08):
uh, and property transformation
examples.
>> Loren (39:12):
Yeah. And I'm as. As we're talking here, I am,
I'm looking on Google Maps of your own
congregation,
Caldwell Presbyterian. It's funny enough that
when you. With Google Maps, I can kind of look
on different time periods and see the old Belk
Hall. And now what's the new building here called?
>> Speaker D (39:32):
Hope, uh, Hall. That's right.
>> Loren (39:33):
Hope Hall.
>> Speaker D (39:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:34):
Yeah. So a beautiful new
construction that is going to house folks.
Do you want to say anything about that?
>> Speaker D (39:42):
Absolutely. That's a different building. Um,
but, yeah, we've been able to transform our property
in multiple ways. But, um,
there's a long building that runs down one side of the property,
if you're looking at it on Google Earth, and that's the old
education wing, and that's the one that we're,
um, gutting and, uh,
(40:03):
turning into 21 studio apartments.
>> Loren (40:05):
Wow. So to summarize, if
I can, I. I'm thinking again just about
denominational leadership. And of course, like you mentioned, this
kind of depends based on the polity of the
denomination of the church tradition. But it really
sounds like, just from your own experience,
that discernment and helping people discern
(40:26):
is really like the most essential step.
>> Speaker D (40:29):
You're right, Loren. Uh, without a clear
commitment to a missional cause
and vision that is compelling to the
congregation, compelling enough to help them
hang in there through the
seven years, the highs and lows and the
frustrations and, uh, and the joys
of it. Um, but in that is
(40:52):
rebirth. And in that is kind of a.
This is a pretentious way to think about it, but almost a
purification of what
churches can be and do about.
And, um, you know, certainly
congregations have to maintain a focus
on, uh, taking care of their own
flock. There's no question about that.
(41:14):
But, uh, at the same time, there's new life
in, uh, shedding our old skin
and turning to neighbor
and walking with them. We can be
reborn. Um,
m. The movement is still early.
Uh, it'll be interesting to see how it pans out. Uh, I
(41:35):
don't suggest this undertaking, uh, for
everybody, but for those churches that catch the
vis. And really can commit to,
uh, a new missional purpose,
uh, it can be, um,
resurrecting.
>> Loren (41:51):
Yeah. Well, the book is Building
Belonging, the church's call to create community and to
house our neighbors. Recommend the book
and uh, sure enough, he has a blurb
recommendation on the back of the book from Mark Elsden. So
thank you so much. Um, let's take a quick break
here and come back with some closing questions.
(42:13):
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. John Cleghorn, so really
appreciate the conversation. Uh, these closing
questions, we always tell folks, you can take them as seriously or not as
you'd like to. That being said, I do want to kind of ask
a real estate type question because
with this Pope question, again, some people take this
more seriously than others. Uh, some people want to
(42:33):
sell all the land. Uh, if you had,
you know, significant control, let's say, over
Catholic.
>> Speaker D (42:40):
Ah.
>> Loren (42:40):
Or another humongous church, denominations of real
estate per se, uh, what would be, maybe what
would one thing you'd want to accomplish with that
real estate in a day?
And if you want to just answer the Pope question too, that's okay.
>> Speaker D (42:57):
Well, I suppose I'll just step right
into it. I would love to,
in 50 years to come back. I won't be here, but to
come back and see church properties
that aren't recognizably church properties,
but that still has a congregation. But,
um, have all kinds of things that reflect
(43:20):
the needs and the wants and the lives and the hopes
and the dreams of their neighbors and their neighborhoods.
And there's cities. Um,
uh, one interesting thing about this is
that city governments, local county governments
are really catching this wave and leaning
into how to equip churches to do
this. Um, so, uh, if I were
(43:43):
Pope, um,
I might make it different. I might make it mayor or
governor. Uh, sure. California has
passed a bill that allows churches to develop their
properties by. Right. That is, if they're doing
something for the community and the common good, they don't have
to go through zoning, uh, laws. I would love to
(44:03):
see, uh, that kind of
bill flourish everywhere. I would love for
cities to understand and
simplify zoning. Um, we can
build our way out of this housing crisis. It's going to take a
lot. But along the way, we're not just
building housing, but we can build communities by
(44:24):
bringing back, uh, diversity
of race and class and life experience
into the neighborhoods that are now so highly
segregated.
>> Loren (44:34):
Yes. I should say, as we're recording this,
Yigbe is yes, in God's
backyard, as was. California is also
working through the process in my neck of the woods in Colorado.
Uh, so if you're listening to this in Colorado,
I can't remember when this will come out, but say a
word to your state representative
(44:56):
to try to support that, uh, because
I was just at a meeting a couple
weeks, months, I can't remember ago, and
there's a testimony from a church, and they talked
about how much money they spent just on the
rezoning, how much effort,
how tedious that process was alone just on the
rezoning. So I'm glad you mentioned that.
>> Speaker D (45:18):
Right.
>> Loren (45:18):
I'm glad you mentioned that.
>> Speaker D (45:19):
That's great for Colorado. There are some fabulous
examples in Denver, and I'm delighted to hear that bill
is advancing there. We, um. I've
got a friend who's writing, uh, a bill like that in North
Carolina right now, so we're years away. But I'm
delighted for.
>> Loren (45:36):
I want to ask. I'm going off script here. I want to ask because I think
I meant to ask this when the denominational question, too.
I've m. A lot of my affordable housing experience
comes in a type of social work context. And
I'm curious, do we, as
denominations,
as seminaries, the institution need to
(45:57):
rethink in some regard the role of
pastor and church as,
uh, more of a kind of social work model? And again, I'm someone who
believes strongly in the gathered community, worship
and discipleship. But could we rethink our.
Are churches even church plants, let's
say, as more of like a really communal
(46:18):
model? Like, do you think there. There's opportunity for
that?
>> Speaker D (46:21):
I think there's great opportunity for that. Um,
you know, for a young person to be going into ministry now,
um, they better understand that, you
know, their father's church and their grandfather's church or their mother's
church and their grandmother's church are
increasingly rare.
And so live into the chance to be
(46:43):
a different kind of a pastor, including social work,
including community organizing.
That's a direction that I think the body of
Christ can flourish in, as it has in past
eras. Um, but absolutely. Um,
and we have tried to prepare our congregation
for years now to understand what religion,
(47:06):
what it's going to be like to have 21 folks who are chronically
homeless move onto our campus and how do we
understand their walks of life? Um, so it's not just
pastors. It can be members too.
But yes, I would love to see seminaries and others,
uh, prepare churches just as
intently for community work as we do,
(47:28):
uh, understanding Bart and Calvin
in doctrine.
>> Loren (47:32):
Yeah.
Speaking of dead theologians, do you have a
dead theologian or historical Christian figure
you'd want to meet or bring back to life?
>> Speaker D (47:42):
Uh, I guess there are three. Uh,
gotta go with Jesus trying to understand
who the historical Jesus was? Um,
these days I'd love to, um, have Bonhoeffer come
back to life and, uh, speak to America.
Um, but I'm also very intrigued with Paul.
Um,
(48:03):
um, if you read the depth
and breadth of his work, there are some things that I know, some
people categorize as
bashing, um, types of scriptures, uh, but
then you read Galatians 3, 26, 27, 28, and he says,
in Christ, there's neither male nor female, slave nor free,
Greek nor Jew. And, uh, you think about that kind
(48:25):
of intersectional inclusivity, uh, in the
church. And, uh, I want to know
Paul,
uh, he was a
fascinating guy. And, uh, like Jesus, um, I think
we just have, um, kind of gray outlines of
who Paul really was. And so I'm curious.
>> Loren (48:45):
Yeah. Um, what do you think history will remember
from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (48:57):
Some people would say, you know, it's the.
We're following the arc of
Rome, uh, and, um,
nearing America's
unhappy, uh, ending.
I believe too much in hope. Uh,
I have to hope that America will still wake,
(49:19):
uh, up and shake off, uh, its
lethargy, uh, and acceptance of
the profound, uh,
class differences we have and
refocus, um, on the common good and, uh,
pray that we can do that in
a way that is transformative and nonviolent.
>> Loren (49:43):
To that point then, and I suppose you
shared some of it right there, but what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity?
>> Speaker D (49:52):
That it can be, um,
transformed. Um, and I think it's happening,
um,
it's throwing off its shell, um,
of the last century when we are
in a very different circumstance.
I see churches and pastors and, to
(50:15):
your point, community organizers and social workers,
uh, doing remarkable things that,
to me look much more like what
Jesus did day to day,
uh, than perhaps when, uh,
the church was much more closely
aligned with empire and capitalism.
>> Loren (50:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate this
conversation. Uh, thank you so much for your time. Do you want
to tell folks, uh, how they can connect with you? Get the book? Any
of that?
>> Speaker D (50:46):
Well, uh, gosh, thank you. Um. Um,
I suppose the easiest thing to do is Google me.
Um, uh, there's a former
Canadian banker that has my name, but other than that,
um, um, I'm one of the few
John Cleghorns out in Google land.
Uh, I have another book that came out just a few years ago
as well, called Resurrecting Church. And it looks at
(51:09):
the history, uh, of some of the diverse
churches in the PCUSA and how
they're resurrecting through diversity.
Um, but, um,
I truly am delighted to be in touch with, uh,
anyone, uh, that would um,
like to reach out and I would welcome that
(51:30):
chance. And um, know that I still have a
lot to learn. I'm a straight white,
highly educated, affluent, uh, older
white guys. So there's a lot I can learn from other folks.
>> Loren (51:42):
Well, I really appreciate your, really appreciate the time
the conversation. Always leave folks with a word of peace.
So may God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (51:50):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (51:58):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast. This podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to
get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you
(52:20):
go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to
leave a review. It really helps us get this out to
more people. Thanks. And go in PE.
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