June 17, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Raymond Chang—pastor, writer, and Executive Director of the TENx10 Collaboration at Fuller Seminary. As co-author of Future Focused Church, Raymond shares a hopeful, grounded vision for how churches can embrace change, cultivate culture, and lead the next generation with clarity and purpose. Drawing from his experience in campus ministry, global missions, and as the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, Raymond offers practical wisdom on how to engage young people, make faithful decisions, and ground all change efforts in deep discipleship. The conversation touches on everything from listening well to those who resist, to why the worship service is often the worst place to initiate change.
Key Themes:-
Why the future of the church is still bright
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Spiritual postures vs. spiritual practices
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The long, faithful work of building congregational imagination
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Creating culture change, not just cosmetic change
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Empowering transformation teams
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Leading with listening and honoring those who resist
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Why everything should be grounded in discipleship
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How to manage hard decisions with grace
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The danger of political syncretism in the church
Raymond Chang is the executive director of the TENx10 Collaboration (part of Fuller Seminary), which is a collaborative movement that is geared toward reaching ten million young people over ten years with the gospel. He is also the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, a pastor, and a writer. Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served as the associate chaplain for discipleship at Wheaton College. He has worked in the for-profit and nonprofit sectors and served in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud parents of Sophia, and they reside in Chicago.
Mentioned Resources:
📱 Follow @raychang502
📖 Book: FutureFocusedChurch.com
🌐 TENx10.org: https://www.tenx10.org/
🌐 Asian American Christian Collaboration: https://asianamericanchristiancollaborative.com/
🎧 Jeff Keuss: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-8wu23-1703189
Presenting Sponsor:
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:45):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Raymond Chang. Raymond is the
Executive Director of the 10x10
Collaboration Part of Fuller Seminary,
which is a collaborative movement that is geared
toward reaching 10 million young people over
10 years with the gospel. He is also the
(01:06):
president of the Asian American Christian
Collaborative, a pastor and a writer.
Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served
as the Associate Chaplain for Discipleship at
Wheaton College. He has worked in the for
profit and nonprofit sectors and served
in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his
(01:27):
wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud
parents of Sophia, and they reside in
Chicago. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and
share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email
(01:49):
at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in
how we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:12):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today Pastor Raymond
Chang. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (02:20):
Hey, Loren, it's great to be with you.
>> Loren (02:23):
Yeah, thanks. Anything else you want to say about yourself?
>> Speaker D (02:27):
I mean, uh, my Social Security number is
1, 2, 3, 4, 5678.
>> Loren (02:32):
Just the last four digits, maybe.
>> Speaker D (02:34):
No, I mean, um, yeah, my name is Ray.
Uh,
I lived all over the world. Uh,
I enjoy traveling, although I don't get to do it as much because I
have a beautiful, uh, baby that's two years old
and, uh, she occupies most of my free time. And, uh,
uh, married and happily, uh, married to my lovely
(02:56):
wife Jessica. And we're just trying to
advance the kingdom together.
>> Loren (03:00):
That's awesome. That's awesome.
>> Speaker D (03:02):
Share.
>> Loren (03:02):
If you would just come out your faith journey. What that looked like in the
past, what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:07):
Yeah, well, I mean, I got to honor the
ancestors for me because I have seven
and eight generations Christian, uh, going back
and so, uh, I have the privilege of having a long
heritage of Christianity and faith
uh, in my family. And uh, that's been a really
significant and important part of my identity as well
(03:27):
as uh, I think kind of the
spirituality that I've embraced and I'm
trying to carry on and pass on to my daughter,
um, which is very rare because I'm a Korean American.
Uh, and ah, the major
waves of Christianity began in the late
1800s and 1900s in Korea. And then
(03:47):
I was born here in the US as the first
of our generation to do so. So I'm second generation Korean American.
Um, I've lived all over the world and so I've lived in
uh, Chicago, Korea, Hawaii, California,
Guatemala, Panama, Spain, China. Uh,
and so I feel like I've seen the world and I've seen
the world's needs and hungers as well as
(04:08):
the beauty of Christ expressed throughout the. And
I've seen faith communities flourish in
places where Christianity isn't welcome
and faith communities uh, not
flourish so much in places that think that they're Christian. And
so just seeing a lot of different uh, things.
And um, I love the Bible,
(04:28):
uh, uh, I love everything about
the activity of God throughout history. Um,
and I love the Asian American church
as well as the broader kind of church and the
immigrant church has really been a significant part of my own formation.
And so uh, shout out to all those uh, under
resourced ministers that basically on top of
(04:48):
a full time job ran uh, a church
uh, with zero time and zero budget that they had just
so that they can provide a spiritual community and space
for people to convene and gather. I don't know if I
shared a little too much, but that's just a little bit about me.
>> Loren (05:02):
No, I appreciate the shout out for bivocational pastors
and uh, those who do it for love of ministry
and love of God without a huge
paycheck. So I appreciate you sharing that.
Anything else? Uh, we always ask guests anything
about a spiritual practice or discipline that's meaningful for you.
>> Speaker D (05:20):
Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about the difference between
spiritual practices and spiritual postures, um,
and how I mean practices are going
to be a part of our spiritual formation no matter
what. But um, I
was reading a book recently and she was articulating
how uh, the challenge
(05:41):
of Western Christianity is how
spiritual formation is viewed in such a linear
manner that it leads
to the practices being a kind of
mastery over God and over your spiritual life
instead of allowing God to be mastered over you. And I've been thinking
a lot about that these days and trying to figure out, okay, what are the
(06:01):
postures I need to embrace so that the practices
actually bear fruit in a way that's not
deformative in making me think that I
can kind of go and, um, master
Jesus and instead allow myself to be
mastered by Jesus.
>> Loren (06:18):
Oh, that's. That's. That's wise. That's wise.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Well, Ray is the author, along with Cara Powell and
Jake Mulder, of the book Future Focused
Church. Uh, but rather than do, like, the generic,
like, oh, what inspired the book, I kind of want to start
this way because I think this was one of the most
intriguing lines from the book that y' all
(06:40):
write, that you believe that the future of the
church is brighter than the past. And I think
for many pastors, for many church leaders, for many folks
even in the pews, that seems pretty shocking
to hear or to read. So talk about
that.
>> Speaker D (06:56):
Yeah, I mean, we know that. We know the
data. We know that the church is shrinking, that the
church is aging, and that the church
is feeling more and more irrelevant. You know,
we've seen how, you know,
political and social
ideologies have basically split the church
and defined the church and taken over the church.
(07:19):
We see how young people are actively leaving the
church. And so we're not,
um, naive to those realities.
But at the same time, the church really
flourishes when it's squeezed because
the church tends to have
to lean in or lean
(07:39):
away from God in the moments of
greatest difficulty. Uh, in the US I don't think
we're quite at the levels of persecution or
anything like that. But I do know that
whenever the church is persecuted or whenever the
church is, um, put in a corner,
God shows up in some amazing ways because
(07:59):
the people of God actually begin to depend on God.
And I think one of the greatest challenges of Christianity
in the US Right now is that we've created a
Christian ecosystem in the world world where dependency
on God is optional. And when you look at the Bible,
that's never the case. And so,
um, the other thing we know is
(08:21):
that nothing is going to prevail against
the kingdom's advancement. And the primary
unit and, uh, means by
which God works is through the church.
Now, the church might look differently, its form
might look differently over time, but,
uh, when people are gathered and they're assembled to
(08:41):
worship and they meet on a regular basis, and they are,
uh, worshiping God together, praying with one another,
serving together, um,
and meeting with one another and healing each other
and proclaiming God's Truth and promoting
justice. We know that good things
follow because the kingdom is being proclaimed.
(09:03):
And so in some way we just know that
Jesus is in control. And all throughout
history nothing has been able to eliminate the church.
And we don't think anything's going to be able to do that,
uh, even if we do it to ourselves.
>> Loren (09:18):
Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that.
I want to ask about because I think one of the things that was
really important, as I
understand it throughout the book, increasingly
or repeatedly, excuse me. Was this idea of
creating culture change in order to create
lasting change. Do you want to talk more about the importance of
creating culture change versus just trying to create change
(09:41):
on its own?
>> Speaker D (09:43):
Yeah, I mean so you know, culture
eats strategy for breakfast. Right. And so
without, and without a vision, people perish. And
so if you want change to last, it has
to be deep within the bones of the
culture, of the community. And
it's one thing to just have practices or kind
(10:05):
of a shallow uh, acquiescence.
It's another thing when people actually uh, kind
of embrace and internalize and
the community begins to move in different ways. And
that's what we're calling for.
>> Loren (10:18):
Yeah, well I think it speaks to something else y' all
write about is that people support what
they help create. And I think this was interesting because we're
in our current at least the last 10, 15,
20 years as society kind of de
institutionalizes and things become more
bottom up and even populist. I think in many
(10:39):
ways, as we're seeing today,
um, I guess talk about the
importance of engaging people then. I'm m also curious if you have some
thoughts on some of the dangers or perhaps
guardrails you might want to have in place. So it's not
just like um,
m majority rules or you know, um,
whatever the biggest population wants.
>> Speaker D (11:02):
Yeah, I mean one of the core principles that we
promote is that people support what
they have, you know, that they are able to create. I mean I used
to lead small groups in um, at a Christian
college. And uh, one of the things that we would always say
is nobody feels like they're part of the group until
um, until they hear the sound of their own voice.
(11:23):
And because of that we know
that if you're going to do something then you have to
invite people into it. Otherwise it just becomes
a mandate where you're just telling people what to do. And so
people just aren't interested in that. And so one of the things that we
encourage people to do is to help people create or help
people participate,
(11:44):
uh, in the provision of input and,
and we kind of offer several steps in order to do that.
Um, you know, uh, that
the first is figuring uh, out like who
is a part of this. And one of the things that we encourage
people to do is create a transformation team if you want
to lead change within a larger organization, to identify some
(12:05):
key people out of a diverse
group of people to help speak into the change that you want
to see. Um, and then of course,
as we map out the who, uh, we also want
to figure out how do we actually help create a
sense of support, uh, for that.
And so we want to allow people to
(12:26):
practice something called keychain leadership, which is,
uh, handing people more keys,
uh, that their capabilities,
power and access that they carry, the potential to empower
all generations, but especially young people.
Um, we want to say, hey,
here are some of the ways that you can
(12:48):
lead change and be clear with that, with
the parameters of their authority that you're handing
to them. And then of course, um,
thinking about what they create,
uh, while you hand over these
substantive keys, clarifying the desired end
goal and giving all sorts of freedom on how to accomplish the
(13:08):
goal. One of the things that we want to
do is invite people to help create God's future
for our faith community together. And
a part of it is just asking, asking the right people the right
questions, um, just having them
ask questions that are very practical. We offer a bunch of those
in the book, spend time getting the input
(13:29):
of those who resist division. I think it's so
important to spend time getting
input from those who are kind of resistant.
And then I think the third thing is, um,
and actually that I cite my
father in law, he would always talk, talk
about the ways that the most passionate people, the people that
(13:49):
care most about your faith community or your church
are those that, um,
oftentimes might resist and that those who might
resist and challenge are sometimes those who want to protect
the community. Not just protect their preferences, but
actually protect the community. Ah.
And of course, then returning with
(14:10):
them after you hear the feedback from people,
uh, to report on how you use the feedback. And
so there's a few ways that we encourage people to support what
they, uh, that we encourage people to,
um, uh, create
the avenues for people to support what they create.
>> Loren (14:27):
In 142, page 142, you talk
about like a transformation team, their
leadership, and the threefold process of looking
back to the past, looking around, and then
looking forward to the future. So talk about those
three time frames and why it's important to understand
all those metrics.
>> Speaker D (14:48):
Yeah. So
we know that God is working
in, um, eternity past, eternity
present, eternity future.
And in our current day and age,
we, uh, don't have to reinvent the wheel,
(15:10):
nor do we have to ignore the beautiful
traditions that have carried us through in the
past. And so looking at
through the past, it's helpful to understand
why your community is where it is. So one of the
things that we encourage people to do is investigate your church's
founding narrative. Like, what was it that led
(15:31):
the church to emerge? Because there's something about
that that probably still remains in the DNA of the
community today. And then the other thing we encourage people
to do when they get past is to, I think it's construct a, uh,
congregational timeline. So, like, what are some large
events that had happened throughout history? And then, of course, to
explore key questions about what things emerged,
(15:52):
um, in the past, to figure out why certain decisions
were being made at the time. You know, when were we
at our best? Uh, when did we. How do
we handle something similar to what we're hand. How do we handle
something in the past that was similar to what challenges
we're facing right now? You know, how have our
church's culture, uh, leadership kind of helped
(16:13):
or hindered us? Then we got to look at the present, right?
Because we know that we can't just live in the past. We
have to honor the past. But we can't just live in the past and,
uh, especially honor the good things of the past. And so, uh,
we want to figure out what is happening
at the moment. Now, some people are
so, um, past focused that
(16:33):
they're living in a heyday that no longer exists.
And so it's really helpful to name your church's current
reality. I think the other thing,
um, that would be helpful is
to, uh, kind of conduct a swot analysis
of where you are right now and then
uncovering some mixed messages,
um, to make sure that you're not confused in a
(16:55):
variety of ways. The other thing is looking
ahead to the future. We want
people to move from here to there
with the who and the how, which is our kind of a
fourfold framework. And you can learn more if you read the book.
Um, we have to think about,
uh, in terms of the future, what are some of the obstacles that are going to be
(17:15):
there, uh, on the way there, what are some problems and
opportunities, what are some barriers and
challenges? And then, of course,
why we're trying to move to the there. What
is it that needs to lead to the change?
Because sometimes we don't articulate all these things. Or we don't even take
the time to reflect on what's happened in the past and what's
(17:36):
happening now. We come up with
visions that might not be tethered to
our current reality or even our past reality.
And so those are some of the things that we want to encourage people
on.
>> Loren (17:48):
Well, speaking of doing the long, hard work, this
struck Me too. Page
166 you write about. Pastoral and
congregational imagination don't
simply happen overnight, but the result of, uh, faithful
and intentional work honed over time.
I feel like this is like the one
missing ingredient that is so often lacking is just that
(18:11):
time part. And part of it is, I don't know
if you'd agree, but it seems like churches just wait too long to do
this. So by time they get to what
feels like a crisis opportunity or crisis
moment, that they're just like, we need to make decisions now. Like,
you know, there's eight people in worship, or the
budget is like in a disaster scenario or what have you,
(18:32):
uh, talk more about that faithful
and intentional work honed over time.
>> Speaker D (18:38):
Um, so one of the things that we encourage people to do is
maintain disciplined, um, action
and attention. And the reason
we encourage this is because change
efforts require intentionality.
They're not just willy nilly, they
aren't just something that you kind of just decide one
moment and you don't have to continue on with. And
(19:01):
so that's a big part of, um, what we
try to emphasize and we try to walk people through.
Um, mostly because
if you are leading change,
it's likely that as you
go through the process, things are going to change
in your change process. And
(19:22):
so you might decide that you're moving in a direction
and then realize, oh, this isn't the right direction. But we
know that these steps that we've taken here
are the right steps, but these steps are not.
And, and so if you're not disciplined,
you can literally just throw the baby out
with the bathwater and go in one direction instead of another.
(19:42):
And one of the things that we really want people to do is,
um, just to
know where they're going. Because otherwise
you end up packing with, um, whatever
wind blows.
>> Loren (19:54):
Uh, it's interesting that you use the word
discipline because I'm thinking about how in the
book y' all talk about everything in church
being fundamentally about discipleship. You
know, you use that reference of what from
James, right, Chapter one of being
blown about by the wind. If I'm thinking of the right text,
(20:17):
talk more about
the importance of these things being grounded in
discipleship I mean.
>> Speaker D (20:25):
Everything we do should be grounded in discipleship.
Right. Uh, one of the great mandates is to go and make
disciples of all nations, teaching and
baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. And
so that is a big piece
for us, uh, that we are trying to, uh,
emphasize and lean into. And so,
um, yeah, I don't think
(20:47):
that anything we do should be
untethered from our commitment to discipleship.
In fact, our first key checkpoint is relationally
discipling young people. Because that
seems like, uh, something that the church claims to
do but doesn't often do enough,
especially when you kind of look under the hood.
(21:07):
And so discipleship is central to everything that we're doing. Is
that answering your question?
>> Loren (21:11):
Yeah, uh, yeah, because I'm thinking about it through the lens of
having a groundedness or a foundation
or something holding.
I mean, there's lots of data right out about
how young people are shifting so
significantly, especially apart from each other. Like, like young men and young
women are like going to opposite poles.
(21:33):
And it seems like many of these social
movements that were like, oh, like we can count on young
people for equity and justice causes,
it seems to me that because so many of them didn't
have the foundational grounding, a
Christian word, we might say, of discipleship, like, to me
it seems like that's why folks can be so
(21:53):
easily swayed against these same kind of
social ground, good causes. Uh, so I'm wondering
similarly, can that happen like in church where
folks don't really understand like why we're making these changes,
why we're trying to do this? It's because discipleship,
because we're discipling him, like faithfulness
to God and the gospel message of
(22:14):
Jesus.
>> Speaker D (22:15):
Yeah, I mean, uh, we have to start with why
and like, we have to begin with why. It's really important to
continue to articulate the why and then
go back to the why over and over and over. Because we can easily
drift away from the mission, we can easily drift away from the
purpose. We can do a lot of what. And the what
really doesn't matter unless it's tethered to uh, a compelling
(22:35):
and substantive why.
And so yes to everything that you're saying.
>> Loren (22:41):
Do you think, then thinking
about, you all write about the importance of follow through.
Do you think that why, again, that ah, disableship
why is also important? Because if we
don't really understand the why, we're going to lack
that, that endurance, that
perseverance.
>> Speaker D (22:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's uh, that. Yeah, I think so
because why is the motivation behind things. And
so it's also the kind of the,
the root reason for why we do things. And
so I would say
yes. Uh, I mean there's two
ways in which you can motivate people. You can either kind of
dictate the terms and tell them this is what we're doing, or you
(23:22):
can compel them and motivate them by showing them
the deeper reasons into know
what you are doing, uh,
and why you're doing them. And so when people understand
the why, the
nature of a, uh, compelling move oftentimes work.
>> Loren (23:40):
And that's I guess, the big time challenge. Right. Because doing
that why work of
explaining the why takes so much more time and buy
in than just mandating. This
is what we're doing and this is when we're going to do it and
so forth. Right?
>> Speaker D (23:58):
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, I think the why work
is taking the time to sit down
with someone that might not understand what you're doing and
why you're doing it, uh, explaining it to them
sometimes multiple times, especially if it's
uh, significantly different than what you've been doing in the past,
uh, especially if it disrupts what you,
(24:20):
um, uh, what they're accustomed to.
And this is partially why we encourage people to begin with
listening or start with listening.
>> Loren (24:28):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (24:28):
And then to listen really for the losses that people might be
experiencing.
>> Loren (24:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (24:32):
Because when you do like, you can understand
that they have a why, that they're operating what
operating with. And their why might
be just as, just as significant as your
why and you just don't know, you
know, like why that is. And so,
um, yeah, so I, but so the
explanation of the why is,
(24:55):
is, is really important. But you also have to know
that sometimes you might, and it might not
land and require you to sit
with things or even change your own mind on
some things. Or if you feel like
you uh, have the authority and you think that the community
will go with you to say, and you
(25:15):
have a very clear idea of what needs to be done.
But it's hard to convince everyone else,
um, to work
with as many people but then try to figure out like
what do you do with the person that will not follow
and actually wrestle through, think about those things
and try to um, ensure uh,
(25:35):
that they are cared for in the process.
>> Loren (25:38):
Yeah.
So let's talk more about that because again, I'm thinking of kids. I
mean your kid is young, right? What'd you say, one? Two?
>> Speaker D (25:46):
Uh, she's two.
>> Loren (25:47):
Yeah. So you don't have to deal with too much of this, I suppose, quite
yet. But why?
>> Speaker D (25:52):
Why, why?
>> Loren (25:54):
As she continues to grow older, they get
from experience, they get less compliant, so to
speak. And as a parent,
we can explain all we want, like the rationale why
they need to brush their teeth or take a bath or
do their homework. Uh, but it seems
like maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like in every
(26:14):
parent's life, perhaps also in every leader's life,
there needs to be some kind of. There's got to be
some kind of moment of truth where it's like
we're doing this my way or the
highway, and maybe certainly not frame it that way.
But, I mean, what about
when we come to those real hard points in the
(26:34):
road where clearly it's like
we need to go left, but
they want to go right. You talked about
carrying through that. Talk a little bit more about that.
>> Speaker D (26:46):
Yeah, I mean, at some point, there are
decisions that have to be made that
are not going to be easy for everyone. And the
best thing you can do in those moments is to be as
pastoral as possible. Make sure you've done the
job of listening and actually listening
deeply. Uh, because a lot of people listen just
(27:07):
to move on. And so you don't listen just
to check a box, but you listen to hear the heart. And
if they're saying something in a way that you might not be
understanding, then I would say
it's incumbent on the leader to draw out the
clarity they need from someone. Because oftentimes,
especially if you're a spiritual kind of authority
(27:28):
or you sign their paycheck,
they can't be as candid and honest as they
want with you. And so you're going to have to find ways to draw that
out by being someone that's safe
to share those things. And then from
that place, it's like, if you really can't move in a
direction that's together,
um, you know, like letting them know,
(27:51):
you know, like, I like. And hopefully
you had other people in the community to share this, like, to
discern with you. But, you know, I think at the end of the day,
it's, you know, that there has to be some decision made.
And the reason you're leading the change is because the, uh,
status quo is untenable.
>> Loren (28:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where it's helpful.
I'm appreciating so much of what you're saying about understanding
their why, because I can imagine if you're
really listening well, understanding their why,
there might be some opportunity for connection
or at minimum, maybe just some kind of
respectful agree to disagree
(28:30):
situation where it doesn't have to be,
ah, harsher or
grading is the word I'm looking for.
>> Speaker D (28:38):
Yeah, no, I mean, if someone
feels. I mean, I think our job as leaders
is always to, um,
treat people with the dignity that they deserve. And
the way, you know, you
hold them to a dignified regard
is how you engage
(29:00):
with them in differences and differences of
opinion. And if you can't handle their
objections or their questions or their,
um, uh,
challenges, then,
uh, I'd be more
concerned about
(29:20):
the state of the leader that's trying to lead
than the person that's offering the
concerns and vocalizing them. Because
again, if we believe in the imago DEI in
everybody, and we believe that everyone has a very unique
and important vantage point, and that even
if they're not right or we agree with them on everything, there are
(29:42):
some things that we can agree with them on. And so trying to figure out
where those alignments are and agreements are, and then
figuring out, like, okay, are they actually right or are they
not? Because sometimes the people that we
least want to listen to are the prophets. And
we know that
God sent prophets, uh, to be among
(30:02):
us so that we can align with his heart
and will. And whenever that the people of God
didn't listen to the prophets, trouble
ensued. But they were always
inconvenience. Right. Prophets were never a convenience
to the community.
>> Loren (30:18):
I'm thinking about this way too, about commonality, like,
uh, we can at least have in common with people.
Imago dei, all
were created in the image of God and Christ died for all. So we have that
in common. Right.
Let's do one more question before we take a break. This
was kind of a funny thing when I read it because it's so
obvious, yet not
(30:41):
so simple, but so many miss it.
Why is the worship service the worst
place to initiate change?
>> Speaker D (30:49):
Yeah, um, because that's usually like the.
>> Loren (30:51):
First place we go.
>> Speaker D (30:53):
Yeah. Well, because I think,
um, a lot of people think if you want to change,
I think that inherently we all know that if you want
to change culture, go to the places where
the masses are. And m. The one place
everyone is gathered is going to be the
worship service on a weekend.
And so you want to initiate change, that's where you
(31:15):
initiate change. And sometimes that's appropriate.
Like sometimes you need to lead through
the pulpit. And we saw that with the
civil rights movement. We saw that through other kind of
major movements, uh, in the church.
Um, and
we should certainly lean on that where
(31:36):
it's appropriate and needed vast
majority of change efforts within a community, because communities
are essentially organisms that
have established ways of knowing, being,
and doing. Uh, sometimes it's
helpful to introduce new things from
the edges. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do is experiment
(31:56):
from the edges, because change is always going to be disruptive.
And if you lead
change out the gate, you might shock the system
to the degree that I don't know who.
I was just talking. Was it. You just said the thing about the
carpets and the music. I literally was just having
a conversation today where a new
(32:18):
worship leader came in and was
completely disrupting the entire traditional
service. And in his mind. And
it's not. I wasn't having this conversation with you. I was having.
>> Loren (32:30):
No, but keep going, Keep going.
>> Speaker D (32:32):
Yeah. Um, and in
his mind, he was, like, softly introducing new things,
but he was doing it at the main sanctuary in the
center of it all. And I said, you have
a church where there
are 50
years of people being accustomed to one
(32:53):
type of worship. The best
way to do that is by starting to introduce
new music in other venues.
Maybe you start in the foyer and the lobby
where they're introduced to different type of music.
Maybe it's not the Sunday morning service, but the
Sunday evening service. Maybe it's something
else, you know? And so those are some of the things that we should think about.
>> Loren (33:15):
Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh, those things can
be interesting.
Well, let's take a quick break week. We'll come back with some closing
questions.
Okay. We're back with Pastor Raymond Chang. Really appreciate
this conversation. For our guests, we always tell
them, you can take these closing questions as seriously or not
as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day,
(33:39):
what might that day look like for you?
>> Speaker D (33:41):
I mean, if I was Pope for the day, I'd probably want
to drive around in the Vatican mobile.
So that's probably what I want to do the whole day. And just like the Pope
mobile, go around Rome and
hang, uh, out, eat some gelato, and then spend
time with those that are most
hungry for kind of spiritual
(34:01):
nourishment. Um, because there is a
unique place and space for clergy to be
amongst the people. And so I'd probably do one of two
things. I'd do the popemobile thing for fun
and eat some gelato in Rome, and then
I'd probably spend time with the poor.
>> Loren (34:18):
Hey, that's good. That's good. That's funny.
The. The episode we just released, the. The guy gave the
same Answer. Popemobile through, a drive through. So. Makes
sense.
>> Speaker D (34:28):
Well, if he gave that answer or she gave that answer, then I'd
probably say if I was pope for the day,
um, I'd wanna, uh, add
a stroke of paint to the Sistine
Chapel.
>> Loren (34:41):
Now we're really getting, really getting
sacrilegious.
Okay. Um, a historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life besides Jesus.
Yes.
>> Speaker D (34:51):
Well, Jesus is still alive.
>> Loren (34:53):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (34:53):
Um, I mean, probably Martin
Luther King Jr. There's so much I want to learn, you know, from
his life.
>> Loren (35:02):
Okay. Um, what do you think history will
remember from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (35:07):
Political syncretism. I think
that history will look back
on the church as widely
being syncretistic with
politics.
>> Loren (35:19):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (35:20):
And simultaneously silent
in addressing it.
>> Loren (35:26):
That's the most interesting response I've heard of that
in some time.
And it's dead on.
Like, I was just having that conversation, but not in that way,
the way you're framing that. Really,
really accurate.
>> Speaker D (35:44):
Yeah.
>> Loren (35:45):
Really accurate.
>> Speaker D (35:46):
Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is churches. Churches
are already feeling the dividedness, you know, that they
are trying to be a church that is, you know, either
multicolored or purple.
And the reality, uh, is what that often means
is that they, they don't engage with any
of the things that they need to be engaged with when it comes to
(36:06):
politics.
>> Loren (36:07):
Yeah. What do you hope for the future
of Christianity?
>> Speaker D (36:11):
So besides the obvious answer
of the church being future focused along the lines of what
we're writing about in the book.
>> Loren (36:19):
Right.
>> Speaker D (36:20):
I, uh, really think that I would
love the church to better reflect the
kingdom of God and,
uh, reflect the kingdom of God in ways that
is so compelling that it doesn't
need power
in order to be relevant,
(36:43):
but that it simply needs to love
and speak the truth
and serve the needy and
care for the hungry and
prioritize the poor
in ways that we saw Jesus doing.
>> Loren (37:03):
Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Appreciate
the conversation. Do you want to share how folks can
connect with you? Get the book, all that?
>> Speaker D (37:11):
Yeah. Connect with me on social media. I'm on,
uh, all the major platforms. Uh, you can find me
on Facebook, on Instagram, on bluesky,
on Twitter. I'm trying to figure out if I need to be on TikTok
or not. I never want to be one of those people
that try to dance on TikTok. If you ever see me do
that, um, feel free to send me a private
(37:31):
message shaming me, uh, so that I am not one
of those Christians that do the dancing stuff.
Uh, no. Shade to those that do. I get it. It's just
not me. Um, and then,
uh, yeah, so
Instagram is raychang502. Um,
Twitter is Tweet Ray Tang. And then if you're
(37:52):
interested in, uh, connecting with, uh, us, it's
futurefocuschurch.com, you can get the book.
Um, and, uh, I also lead the
Asian American Christian Collaborative. And so you can go to aacristcollab.
I am with the 10x10 collaboration and so you can go
1010. Org. There are so many
links that you should follow and so check out all
(38:12):
of them.
>> Loren (38:13):
Yeah. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time
your the conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (38:22):
Peace with you too.
>> Loren Richmond (38:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website at, uh, future-christian.com
and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
table page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(38:51):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe
to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:45):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Raymond Chang. Raymond is the
Executive Director of the 10x10
Collaboration Part of Fuller Seminary,
which is a collaborative movement that is geared
toward reaching 10 million young people over
10 years with the gospel. He is also the
(01:06):
president of the Asian American Christian
Collaborative, a pastor and a writer.
Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served
as the Associate Chaplain for Discipleship at
Wheaton College. He has worked in the for
profit and nonprofit sectors and served
in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his
(01:27):
wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud
parents of Sophia, and they reside in
Chicago. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and
share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email
(01:49):
at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in
how we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:12):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond
Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today Pastor Raymond
Chang. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> Speaker D (02:20):
Hey, Loren, it's great to be with you.
>> Loren (02:23):
Yeah, thanks. Anything else you want to say about yourself?
>> Speaker D (02:27):
I mean, uh, my Social Security number is
1, 2, 3, 4, 5678.
>> Loren (02:32):
Just the last four digits, maybe.
>> Speaker D (02:34):
No, I mean, um, yeah, my name is Ray.
Uh,
I lived all over the world. Uh,
I enjoy traveling, although I don't get to do it as much because I
have a beautiful, uh, baby that's two years old
and, uh, she occupies most of my free time. And, uh,
uh, married and happily, uh, married to my lovely
(02:56):
wife Jessica. And we're just trying to
advance the kingdom together.
>> Loren (03:00):
That's awesome. That's awesome.
>> Speaker D (03:02):
Share.
>> Loren (03:02):
If you would just come out your faith journey. What that looked like in the
past, what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (03:07):
Yeah, well, I mean, I got to honor the
ancestors for me because I have seven
and eight generations Christian, uh, going back
and so, uh, I have the privilege of having a long
heritage of Christianity and faith
uh, in my family. And uh, that's been a really
significant and important part of my identity as well
(03:27):
as uh, I think kind of the
spirituality that I've embraced and I'm
trying to carry on and pass on to my daughter,
um, which is very rare because I'm a Korean American.
Uh, and ah, the major
waves of Christianity began in the late
1800s and 1900s in Korea. And then
(03:47):
I was born here in the US as the first
of our generation to do so. So I'm second generation Korean American.
Um, I've lived all over the world and so I've lived in
uh, Chicago, Korea, Hawaii, California,
Guatemala, Panama, Spain, China. Uh,
and so I feel like I've seen the world and I've seen
the world's needs and hungers as well as
(04:08):
the beauty of Christ expressed throughout the. And
I've seen faith communities flourish in
places where Christianity isn't welcome
and faith communities uh, not
flourish so much in places that think that they're Christian. And
so just seeing a lot of different uh, things.
And um, I love the Bible,
(04:28):
uh, uh, I love everything about
the activity of God throughout history. Um,
and I love the Asian American church
as well as the broader kind of church and the
immigrant church has really been a significant part of my own formation.
And so uh, shout out to all those uh, under
resourced ministers that basically on top of
(04:48):
a full time job ran uh, a church
uh, with zero time and zero budget that they had just
so that they can provide a spiritual community and space
for people to convene and gather. I don't know if I
shared a little too much, but that's just a little bit about me.
>> Loren (05:02):
No, I appreciate the shout out for bivocational pastors
and uh, those who do it for love of ministry
and love of God without a huge
paycheck. So I appreciate you sharing that.
Anything else? Uh, we always ask guests anything
about a spiritual practice or discipline that's meaningful for you.
>> Speaker D (05:20):
Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about the difference between
spiritual practices and spiritual postures, um,
and how I mean practices are going
to be a part of our spiritual formation no matter
what. But um, I
was reading a book recently and she was articulating
how uh, the challenge
(05:41):
of Western Christianity is how
spiritual formation is viewed in such a linear
manner that it leads
to the practices being a kind of
mastery over God and over your spiritual life
instead of allowing God to be mastered over you. And I've been thinking
a lot about that these days and trying to figure out, okay, what are the
(06:01):
postures I need to embrace so that the practices
actually bear fruit in a way that's not
deformative in making me think that I
can kind of go and, um, master
Jesus and instead allow myself to be
mastered by Jesus.
>> Loren (06:18):
Oh, that's. That's. That's wise. That's wise.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Well, Ray is the author, along with Cara Powell and
Jake Mulder, of the book Future Focused
Church. Uh, but rather than do, like, the generic,
like, oh, what inspired the book, I kind of want to start
this way because I think this was one of the most
intriguing lines from the book that y' all
(06:40):
write, that you believe that the future of the
church is brighter than the past. And I think
for many pastors, for many church leaders, for many folks
even in the pews, that seems pretty shocking
to hear or to read. So talk about
that.
>> Speaker D (06:56):
Yeah, I mean, we know that. We know the
data. We know that the church is shrinking, that the
church is aging, and that the church
is feeling more and more irrelevant. You know,
we've seen how, you know,
political and social
ideologies have basically split the church
and defined the church and taken over the church.
(07:19):
We see how young people are actively leaving the
church. And so we're not,
um, naive to those realities.
But at the same time, the church really
flourishes when it's squeezed because
the church tends to have
to lean in or lean
(07:39):
away from God in the moments of
greatest difficulty. Uh, in the US I don't think
we're quite at the levels of persecution or
anything like that. But I do know that
whenever the church is persecuted or whenever the
church is, um, put in a corner,
God shows up in some amazing ways because
(07:59):
the people of God actually begin to depend on God.
And I think one of the greatest challenges of Christianity
in the US Right now is that we've created a
Christian ecosystem in the world world where dependency
on God is optional. And when you look at the Bible,
that's never the case. And so,
um, the other thing we know is
(08:21):
that nothing is going to prevail against
the kingdom's advancement. And the primary
unit and, uh, means by
which God works is through the church.
Now, the church might look differently, its form
might look differently over time, but,
uh, when people are gathered and they're assembled to
(08:41):
worship and they meet on a regular basis, and they are,
uh, worshiping God together, praying with one another,
serving together, um,
and meeting with one another and healing each other
and proclaiming God's Truth and promoting
justice. We know that good things
follow because the kingdom is being proclaimed.
(09:03):
And so in some way we just know that
Jesus is in control. And all throughout
history nothing has been able to eliminate the church.
And we don't think anything's going to be able to do that,
uh, even if we do it to ourselves.
>> Loren (09:18):
Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that.
I want to ask about because I think one of the things that was
really important, as I
understand it throughout the book, increasingly
or repeatedly, excuse me. Was this idea of
creating culture change in order to create
lasting change. Do you want to talk more about the importance of
creating culture change versus just trying to create change
(09:41):
on its own?
>> Speaker D (09:43):
Yeah, I mean so you know, culture
eats strategy for breakfast. Right. And so
without, and without a vision, people perish. And
so if you want change to last, it has
to be deep within the bones of the
culture, of the community. And
it's one thing to just have practices or kind
(10:05):
of a shallow uh, acquiescence.
It's another thing when people actually uh, kind
of embrace and internalize and
the community begins to move in different ways. And
that's what we're calling for.
>> Loren (10:18):
Yeah, well I think it speaks to something else y' all
write about is that people support what
they help create. And I think this was interesting because we're
in our current at least the last 10, 15,
20 years as society kind of de
institutionalizes and things become more
bottom up and even populist. I think in many
(10:39):
ways, as we're seeing today,
um, I guess talk about the
importance of engaging people then. I'm m also curious if you have some
thoughts on some of the dangers or perhaps
guardrails you might want to have in place. So it's not
just like um,
m majority rules or you know, um,
whatever the biggest population wants.
>> Speaker D (11:02):
Yeah, I mean one of the core principles that we
promote is that people support what
they have, you know, that they are able to create. I mean I used
to lead small groups in um, at a Christian
college. And uh, one of the things that we would always say
is nobody feels like they're part of the group until
um, until they hear the sound of their own voice.
(11:23):
And because of that we know
that if you're going to do something then you have to
invite people into it. Otherwise it just becomes
a mandate where you're just telling people what to do. And so
people just aren't interested in that. And so one of the things that we
encourage people to do is to help people create or help
people participate,
(11:44):
uh, in the provision of input and,
and we kind of offer several steps in order to do that.
Um, you know, uh, that
the first is figuring uh, out like who
is a part of this. And one of the things that we encourage
people to do is create a transformation team if you want
to lead change within a larger organization, to identify some
(12:05):
key people out of a diverse
group of people to help speak into the change that you want
to see. Um, and then of course,
as we map out the who, uh, we also want
to figure out how do we actually help create a
sense of support, uh, for that.
And so we want to allow people to
(12:26):
practice something called keychain leadership, which is,
uh, handing people more keys,
uh, that their capabilities,
power and access that they carry, the potential to empower
all generations, but especially young people.
Um, we want to say, hey,
here are some of the ways that you can
(12:48):
lead change and be clear with that, with
the parameters of their authority that you're handing
to them. And then of course, um,
thinking about what they create,
uh, while you hand over these
substantive keys, clarifying the desired end
goal and giving all sorts of freedom on how to accomplish the
(13:08):
goal. One of the things that we want to
do is invite people to help create God's future
for our faith community together. And
a part of it is just asking, asking the right people the right
questions, um, just having them
ask questions that are very practical. We offer a bunch of those
in the book, spend time getting the input
(13:29):
of those who resist division. I think it's so
important to spend time getting
input from those who are kind of resistant.
And then I think the third thing is, um,
and actually that I cite my
father in law, he would always talk, talk
about the ways that the most passionate people, the people that
(13:49):
care most about your faith community or your church
are those that, um,
oftentimes might resist and that those who might
resist and challenge are sometimes those who want to protect
the community. Not just protect their preferences, but
actually protect the community. Ah.
And of course, then returning with
(14:10):
them after you hear the feedback from people,
uh, to report on how you use the feedback. And
so there's a few ways that we encourage people to support what
they, uh, that we encourage people to,
um, uh, create
the avenues for people to support what they create.
>> Loren (14:27):
In 142, page 142, you talk
about like a transformation team, their
leadership, and the threefold process of looking
back to the past, looking around, and then
looking forward to the future. So talk about those
three time frames and why it's important to understand
all those metrics.
>> Speaker D (14:48):
Yeah. So
we know that God is working
in, um, eternity past, eternity
present, eternity future.
And in our current day and age,
we, uh, don't have to reinvent the wheel,
(15:10):
nor do we have to ignore the beautiful
traditions that have carried us through in the
past. And so looking at
through the past, it's helpful to understand
why your community is where it is. So one of the
things that we encourage people to do is investigate your church's
founding narrative. Like, what was it that led
(15:31):
the church to emerge? Because there's something about
that that probably still remains in the DNA of the
community today. And then the other thing we encourage people
to do when they get past is to, I think it's construct a, uh,
congregational timeline. So, like, what are some large
events that had happened throughout history? And then, of course, to
explore key questions about what things emerged,
(15:52):
um, in the past, to figure out why certain decisions
were being made at the time. You know, when were we
at our best? Uh, when did we. How do
we handle something similar to what we're hand. How do we handle
something in the past that was similar to what challenges
we're facing right now? You know, how have our
church's culture, uh, leadership kind of helped
(16:13):
or hindered us? Then we got to look at the present, right?
Because we know that we can't just live in the past. We
have to honor the past. But we can't just live in the past and,
uh, especially honor the good things of the past. And so, uh,
we want to figure out what is happening
at the moment. Now, some people are
so, um, past focused that
(16:33):
they're living in a heyday that no longer exists.
And so it's really helpful to name your church's current
reality. I think the other thing,
um, that would be helpful is
to, uh, kind of conduct a swot analysis
of where you are right now and then
uncovering some mixed messages,
um, to make sure that you're not confused in a
(16:55):
variety of ways. The other thing is looking
ahead to the future. We want
people to move from here to there
with the who and the how, which is our kind of a
fourfold framework. And you can learn more if you read the book.
Um, we have to think about,
uh, in terms of the future, what are some of the obstacles that are going to be
(17:15):
there, uh, on the way there, what are some problems and
opportunities, what are some barriers and
challenges? And then, of course,
why we're trying to move to the there. What
is it that needs to lead to the change?
Because sometimes we don't articulate all these things. Or we don't even take
the time to reflect on what's happened in the past and what's
(17:36):
happening now. We come up with
visions that might not be tethered to
our current reality or even our past reality.
And so those are some of the things that we want to encourage people
on.
>> Loren (17:48):
Well, speaking of doing the long, hard work, this
struck Me too. Page
166 you write about. Pastoral and
congregational imagination don't
simply happen overnight, but the result of, uh, faithful
and intentional work honed over time.
I feel like this is like the one
missing ingredient that is so often lacking is just that
(18:11):
time part. And part of it is, I don't know
if you'd agree, but it seems like churches just wait too long to do
this. So by time they get to what
feels like a crisis opportunity or crisis
moment, that they're just like, we need to make decisions now. Like,
you know, there's eight people in worship, or the
budget is like in a disaster scenario or what have you,
(18:32):
uh, talk more about that faithful
and intentional work honed over time.
>> Speaker D (18:38):
Um, so one of the things that we encourage people to do is
maintain disciplined, um, action
and attention. And the reason
we encourage this is because change
efforts require intentionality.
They're not just willy nilly, they
aren't just something that you kind of just decide one
moment and you don't have to continue on with. And
(19:01):
so that's a big part of, um, what we
try to emphasize and we try to walk people through.
Um, mostly because
if you are leading change,
it's likely that as you
go through the process, things are going to change
in your change process. And
(19:22):
so you might decide that you're moving in a direction
and then realize, oh, this isn't the right direction. But we
know that these steps that we've taken here
are the right steps, but these steps are not.
And, and so if you're not disciplined,
you can literally just throw the baby out
with the bathwater and go in one direction instead of another.
(19:42):
And one of the things that we really want people to do is,
um, just to
know where they're going. Because otherwise
you end up packing with, um, whatever
wind blows.
>> Loren (19:54):
Uh, it's interesting that you use the word
discipline because I'm thinking about how in the
book y' all talk about everything in church
being fundamentally about discipleship. You
know, you use that reference of what from
James, right, Chapter one of being
blown about by the wind. If I'm thinking of the right text,
(20:17):
talk more about
the importance of these things being grounded in
discipleship I mean.
>> Speaker D (20:25):
Everything we do should be grounded in discipleship.
Right. Uh, one of the great mandates is to go and make
disciples of all nations, teaching and
baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. And
so that is a big piece
for us, uh, that we are trying to, uh,
emphasize and lean into. And so,
um, yeah, I don't think
(20:47):
that anything we do should be
untethered from our commitment to discipleship.
In fact, our first key checkpoint is relationally
discipling young people. Because that
seems like, uh, something that the church claims to
do but doesn't often do enough,
especially when you kind of look under the hood.
(21:07):
And so discipleship is central to everything that we're doing. Is
that answering your question?
>> Loren (21:11):
Yeah, uh, yeah, because I'm thinking about it through the lens of
having a groundedness or a foundation
or something holding.
I mean, there's lots of data right out about
how young people are shifting so
significantly, especially apart from each other. Like, like young men and young
women are like going to opposite poles.
(21:33):
And it seems like many of these social
movements that were like, oh, like we can count on young
people for equity and justice causes,
it seems to me that because so many of them didn't
have the foundational grounding, a
Christian word, we might say, of discipleship, like, to me
it seems like that's why folks can be so
(21:53):
easily swayed against these same kind of
social ground, good causes. Uh, so I'm wondering
similarly, can that happen like in church where
folks don't really understand like why we're making these changes,
why we're trying to do this? It's because discipleship,
because we're discipling him, like faithfulness
to God and the gospel message of
(22:14):
Jesus.
>> Speaker D (22:15):
Yeah, I mean, uh, we have to start with why
and like, we have to begin with why. It's really important to
continue to articulate the why and then
go back to the why over and over and over. Because we can easily
drift away from the mission, we can easily drift away from the
purpose. We can do a lot of what. And the what
really doesn't matter unless it's tethered to uh, a compelling
(22:35):
and substantive why.
And so yes to everything that you're saying.
>> Loren (22:41):
Do you think, then thinking
about, you all write about the importance of follow through.
Do you think that why, again, that ah, disableship
why is also important? Because if we
don't really understand the why, we're going to lack
that, that endurance, that
perseverance.
>> Speaker D (22:59):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's uh, that. Yeah, I think so
because why is the motivation behind things. And
so it's also the kind of the,
the root reason for why we do things. And
so I would say
yes. Uh, I mean there's two
ways in which you can motivate people. You can either kind of
dictate the terms and tell them this is what we're doing, or you
(23:22):
can compel them and motivate them by showing them
the deeper reasons into know
what you are doing, uh,
and why you're doing them. And so when people understand
the why, the
nature of a, uh, compelling move oftentimes work.
>> Loren (23:40):
And that's I guess, the big time challenge. Right. Because doing
that why work of
explaining the why takes so much more time and buy
in than just mandating. This
is what we're doing and this is when we're going to do it and
so forth. Right?
>> Speaker D (23:58):
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, I think the why work
is taking the time to sit down
with someone that might not understand what you're doing and
why you're doing it, uh, explaining it to them
sometimes multiple times, especially if it's
uh, significantly different than what you've been doing in the past,
uh, especially if it disrupts what you,
(24:20):
um, uh, what they're accustomed to.
And this is partially why we encourage people to begin with
listening or start with listening.
>> Loren (24:28):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (24:28):
And then to listen really for the losses that people might be
experiencing.
>> Loren (24:31):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (24:32):
Because when you do like, you can understand
that they have a why, that they're operating what
operating with. And their why might
be just as, just as significant as your
why and you just don't know, you
know, like why that is. And so,
um, yeah, so I, but so the
explanation of the why is,
(24:55):
is, is really important. But you also have to know
that sometimes you might, and it might not
land and require you to sit
with things or even change your own mind on
some things. Or if you feel like
you uh, have the authority and you think that the community
will go with you to say, and you
(25:15):
have a very clear idea of what needs to be done.
But it's hard to convince everyone else,
um, to work
with as many people but then try to figure out like
what do you do with the person that will not follow
and actually wrestle through, think about those things
and try to um, ensure uh,
(25:35):
that they are cared for in the process.
>> Loren (25:38):
Yeah.
So let's talk more about that because again, I'm thinking of kids. I
mean your kid is young, right? What'd you say, one? Two?
>> Speaker D (25:46):
Uh, she's two.
>> Loren (25:47):
Yeah. So you don't have to deal with too much of this, I suppose, quite
yet. But why?
>> Speaker D (25:52):
Why, why?
>> Loren (25:54):
As she continues to grow older, they get
from experience, they get less compliant, so to
speak. And as a parent,
we can explain all we want, like the rationale why
they need to brush their teeth or take a bath or
do their homework. Uh, but it seems
like maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like in every
(26:14):
parent's life, perhaps also in every leader's life,
there needs to be some kind of. There's got to be
some kind of moment of truth where it's like
we're doing this my way or the
highway, and maybe certainly not frame it that way.
But, I mean, what about
when we come to those real hard points in the
(26:34):
road where clearly it's like
we need to go left, but
they want to go right. You talked about
carrying through that. Talk a little bit more about that.
>> Speaker D (26:46):
Yeah, I mean, at some point, there are
decisions that have to be made that
are not going to be easy for everyone. And the
best thing you can do in those moments is to be as
pastoral as possible. Make sure you've done the
job of listening and actually listening
deeply. Uh, because a lot of people listen just
(27:07):
to move on. And so you don't listen just
to check a box, but you listen to hear the heart. And
if they're saying something in a way that you might not be
understanding, then I would say
it's incumbent on the leader to draw out the
clarity they need from someone. Because oftentimes,
especially if you're a spiritual kind of authority
(27:28):
or you sign their paycheck,
they can't be as candid and honest as they
want with you. And so you're going to have to find ways to draw that
out by being someone that's safe
to share those things. And then from
that place, it's like, if you really can't move in a
direction that's together,
um, you know, like letting them know,
(27:51):
you know, like, I like. And hopefully
you had other people in the community to share this, like, to
discern with you. But, you know, I think at the end of the day,
it's, you know, that there has to be some decision made.
And the reason you're leading the change is because the, uh,
status quo is untenable.
>> Loren (28:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where it's helpful.
I'm appreciating so much of what you're saying about understanding
their why, because I can imagine if you're
really listening well, understanding their why,
there might be some opportunity for connection
or at minimum, maybe just some kind of
respectful agree to disagree
(28:30):
situation where it doesn't have to be,
ah, harsher or
grading is the word I'm looking for.
>> Speaker D (28:38):
Yeah, no, I mean, if someone
feels. I mean, I think our job as leaders
is always to, um,
treat people with the dignity that they deserve. And
the way, you know, you
hold them to a dignified regard
is how you engage
(29:00):
with them in differences and differences of
opinion. And if you can't handle their
objections or their questions or their,
um, uh,
challenges, then,
uh, I'd be more
concerned about
(29:20):
the state of the leader that's trying to lead
than the person that's offering the
concerns and vocalizing them. Because
again, if we believe in the imago DEI in
everybody, and we believe that everyone has a very unique
and important vantage point, and that even
if they're not right or we agree with them on everything, there are
(29:42):
some things that we can agree with them on. And so trying to figure out
where those alignments are and agreements are, and then
figuring out, like, okay, are they actually right or are they
not? Because sometimes the people that we
least want to listen to are the prophets. And
we know that
God sent prophets, uh, to be among
(30:02):
us so that we can align with his heart
and will. And whenever that the people of God
didn't listen to the prophets, trouble
ensued. But they were always
inconvenience. Right. Prophets were never a convenience
to the community.
>> Loren (30:18):
I'm thinking about this way too, about commonality, like,
uh, we can at least have in common with people.
Imago dei, all
were created in the image of God and Christ died for all. So we have that
in common. Right.
Let's do one more question before we take a break. This
was kind of a funny thing when I read it because it's so
obvious, yet not
(30:41):
so simple, but so many miss it.
Why is the worship service the worst
place to initiate change?
>> Speaker D (30:49):
Yeah, um, because that's usually like the.
>> Loren (30:51):
First place we go.
>> Speaker D (30:53):
Yeah. Well, because I think,
um, a lot of people think if you want to change,
I think that inherently we all know that if you want
to change culture, go to the places where
the masses are. And m. The one place
everyone is gathered is going to be the
worship service on a weekend.
And so you want to initiate change, that's where you
(31:15):
initiate change. And sometimes that's appropriate.
Like sometimes you need to lead through
the pulpit. And we saw that with the
civil rights movement. We saw that through other kind of
major movements, uh, in the church.
Um, and
we should certainly lean on that where
(31:36):
it's appropriate and needed vast
majority of change efforts within a community, because communities
are essentially organisms that
have established ways of knowing, being,
and doing. Uh, sometimes it's
helpful to introduce new things from
the edges. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do is experiment
(31:56):
from the edges, because change is always going to be disruptive.
And if you lead
change out the gate, you might shock the system
to the degree that I don't know who.
I was just talking. Was it. You just said the thing about the
carpets and the music. I literally was just having
a conversation today where a new
(32:18):
worship leader came in and was
completely disrupting the entire traditional
service. And in his mind. And
it's not. I wasn't having this conversation with you. I was having.
>> Loren (32:30):
No, but keep going, Keep going.
>> Speaker D (32:32):
Yeah. Um, and in
his mind, he was, like, softly introducing new things,
but he was doing it at the main sanctuary in the
center of it all. And I said, you have
a church where there
are 50
years of people being accustomed to one
(32:53):
type of worship. The best
way to do that is by starting to introduce
new music in other venues.
Maybe you start in the foyer and the lobby
where they're introduced to different type of music.
Maybe it's not the Sunday morning service, but the
Sunday evening service. Maybe it's something
else, you know? And so those are some of the things that we should think about.
>> Loren (33:15):
Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh, those things can
be interesting.
Well, let's take a quick break week. We'll come back with some closing
questions.
Okay. We're back with Pastor Raymond Chang. Really appreciate
this conversation. For our guests, we always tell
them, you can take these closing questions as seriously or not
as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day,
(33:39):
what might that day look like for you?
>> Speaker D (33:41):
I mean, if I was Pope for the day, I'd probably want
to drive around in the Vatican mobile.
So that's probably what I want to do the whole day. And just like the Pope
mobile, go around Rome and
hang, uh, out, eat some gelato, and then spend
time with those that are most
hungry for kind of spiritual
(34:01):
nourishment. Um, because there is a
unique place and space for clergy to be
amongst the people. And so I'd probably do one of two
things. I'd do the popemobile thing for fun
and eat some gelato in Rome, and then
I'd probably spend time with the poor.
>> Loren (34:18):
Hey, that's good. That's good. That's funny.
The. The episode we just released, the. The guy gave the
same Answer. Popemobile through, a drive through. So. Makes
sense.
>> Speaker D (34:28):
Well, if he gave that answer or she gave that answer, then I'd
probably say if I was pope for the day,
um, I'd wanna, uh, add
a stroke of paint to the Sistine
Chapel.
>> Loren (34:41):
Now we're really getting, really getting
sacrilegious.
Okay. Um, a historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life besides Jesus.
Yes.
>> Speaker D (34:51):
Well, Jesus is still alive.
>> Loren (34:53):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (34:53):
Um, I mean, probably Martin
Luther King Jr. There's so much I want to learn, you know, from
his life.
>> Loren (35:02):
Okay. Um, what do you think history will
remember from our current time and place?
>> Speaker D (35:07):
Political syncretism. I think
that history will look back
on the church as widely
being syncretistic with
politics.
>> Loren (35:19):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (35:20):
And simultaneously silent
in addressing it.
>> Loren (35:26):
That's the most interesting response I've heard of that
in some time.
And it's dead on.
Like, I was just having that conversation, but not in that way,
the way you're framing that. Really,
really accurate.
>> Speaker D (35:44):
Yeah.
>> Loren (35:45):
Really accurate.
>> Speaker D (35:46):
Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is churches. Churches
are already feeling the dividedness, you know, that they
are trying to be a church that is, you know, either
multicolored or purple.
And the reality, uh, is what that often means
is that they, they don't engage with any
of the things that they need to be engaged with when it comes to
(36:06):
politics.
>> Loren (36:07):
Yeah. What do you hope for the future
of Christianity?
>> Speaker D (36:11):
So besides the obvious answer
of the church being future focused along the lines of what
we're writing about in the book.
>> Loren (36:19):
Right.
>> Speaker D (36:20):
I, uh, really think that I would
love the church to better reflect the
kingdom of God and,
uh, reflect the kingdom of God in ways that
is so compelling that it doesn't
need power
in order to be relevant,
(36:43):
but that it simply needs to love
and speak the truth
and serve the needy and
care for the hungry and
prioritize the poor
in ways that we saw Jesus doing.
>> Loren (37:03):
Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Appreciate
the conversation. Do you want to share how folks can
connect with you? Get the book, all that?
>> Speaker D (37:11):
Yeah. Connect with me on social media. I'm on,
uh, all the major platforms. Uh, you can find me
on Facebook, on Instagram, on bluesky,
on Twitter. I'm trying to figure out if I need to be on TikTok
or not. I never want to be one of those people
that try to dance on TikTok. If you ever see me do
that, um, feel free to send me a private
(37:31):
message shaming me, uh, so that I am not one
of those Christians that do the dancing stuff.
Uh, no. Shade to those that do. I get it. It's just
not me. Um, and then,
uh, yeah, so
Instagram is raychang502. Um,
Twitter is Tweet Ray Tang. And then if you're
(37:52):
interested in, uh, connecting with, uh, us, it's
futurefocuschurch.com, you can get the book.
Um, and, uh, I also lead the
Asian American Christian Collaborative. And so you can go to aacristcollab.
I am with the 10x10 collaboration and so you can go
1010. Org. There are so many
links that you should follow and so check out all
(38:12):
of them.
>> Loren (38:13):
Yeah. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time
your the conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (38:22):
Peace with you too.
>> Loren Richmond (38:30):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website at, uh, future-christian.com
and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
table page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(38:51):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe
to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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