September 9, 2025 • 51 mins
How do pastors and church leaders navigate ministry when the battles feel relentless? In this episode, Loren talks with Bishop Jeffrey V. Dudley Sr.—retired Air Force chaplain, pastor, and leadership coach. Drawing from his decades of service in the military and the church, Bishop Dudley shares candid reflections on leadership, spiritual practices, and the weight of ministry. He opens up about personal seasons of opposition, the temptation to over-spiritualize crises, and the vital importance of prayer, boundaries, and honest self-awareness. This conversation is a powerful reminder for pastors, leaders, and anyone in ministry that resilience is possible, that honesty matters, and that our hope remains anchored in Jesus.
Listeners will hear:
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Why “battles are inevitable, and preparation must be intentional”
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How to discern between authenticity and “bleeding on the people”
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The danger of over-spiritualizing crises—and how leaders can own responsibility
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Bishop Dudley’s vulnerable reflections on suicidal ideation and the hope that carried him through
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Why he insists, “You are not what you feel”
Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley, Sr. is a retired Air Force Chaplain (Lt. Colonel), Bishop, author, and leadership coach. A lifelong minister and visionary leader, he holds a PhD in Organizational Leadership from Regent University, a Doctor of Ministry from Virginia Union University, a Master of Divinity from Virginia Union, a Master of Human Relations from the University of Oklahoma, and a Bachelor of Arts in Communication, Drama & Speech from UNC Greensboro. He also holds a Post-Master Education Specialist degree from the University of Memphis. Dr. Dudley is the founding pastor of New Life in Christ Church (O'Fallon, IL), one of the fastest-growing churches in the St. Louis metro area, and the CEO of New Life Community Development Corporation, which leads major community initiatives including a $20M affordable housing project. A John Maxwell Associate Trainer and author of six books—including Leading Through Storms—he also mentors leaders through iLeadAcademy.net and Changing Lives Ministries. He and his wife Glenda have two adult children engaged in ministry and nonprofit leadership.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 His Book: https://ivpress.com/leading-through-storms
🌐 His church website: https://www.nlicic.org
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Dr. Jeffrey V. Dudley Sr.
Dr. Dudley is a retired Air Force
chaplain, bishop, authority and leadership
coach. A lifelong minister and
visionary leader, Dr. Dudley is the founding
pastor of New Life in Christ Church, one
(01:06):
of the fastest growing churches in the St.
Louis metro area, and the CEO
of New Life Community Development Corporation,
which leads major community initiatives,
including a $20 million affordable
housing project. A uh, John Maxwell
associate trainer and author of six books,
including Leading Through Storms. He
(01:29):
also mentors leaders through
ileadacademy.net and changing
lives Ministries. He and his wife, Glenda,
have two adult children engaged in ministry
and nonprofit leadership. A
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
(01:51):
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
laurensonatemediapro
uh.com with
comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:19):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name
is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm glad to be recording
today with Bishop Dudley. Thank, uh, you so much for
your, uh, presence here and your conversation.
Uh, thanks for being here and anything else you want to say about
yourself before we begin?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (02:36):
Well, you know, I'm not sure what I want to say other
than I'm thankful that you have me on. I know you're going to
ask me a lot of other questions. I was thinking about that when you said,
okay, what else would you want to say that's not already in
your bio? Right? Thing that came to my mind is that I
like, uh, butter, um, butter
pecan ice cream. How about that? So we start with that.
>> Loren (02:57):
That's a good, that's a good one to share. You know, it
reminds me, I had an interview a
while back and they asked me, what would your, what kind of ice cream would you be if
you're an ice cream? And it really Threw me. So I think
butter pecan would be a good answer actually for that kind of question.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (03:12):
So true, so true.
>> Loren (03:15):
Well, uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith background,
uh, how that, how that journey began and what
that looks like today.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (03:22):
Well, um, I gave my life to Christ, uh, at the
age of 12 at a summer
Christian camp of our denomination. I'm,
uh, I come up in a Pentecostal holiness,
um, um, faith
background. And um, it
actually is the oldest incorporated Pentecostal
denomination in the country, United Only Church
(03:45):
of America Incorporated. And so I gave my life
to Christ, uh, at that summer camp,
um, in the, uh, right off
the beach of North Carolina, near
Wilmington. Never will Forget it at 12.
And uh, and from there, you know,
just kind of matriculated through the denomination. And I
(04:05):
came into. I, um, had this
sense of a call on my life at
age 13, uh, because from my tradition,
you can come and minister whenever you sense
to call on your life. And I did.
And um, and I had a brother
who was in the navy at the time. He came home. I
(04:26):
played basketball. Never forget it. He said, you know, he
said, jeff, you would you.
There's a chaplain in the Navy. And he
described the duties of the chaplain.
It resonated with me. From that point on, I
wanted to serve as a chaplain and I was blessed to
serve as an Air force chaplain for
(04:47):
21 and a half years. Yeah.
>> Loren (04:52):
What has been some serious practices that you have sustained
you during your ministry career?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (04:58):
Prayer.
>> Speaker E (04:59):
Prayer.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (05:00):
Prayer. First and foremost,
prayer. And then, um, quiet
time. Close to quiet time. Prayer is
one. Quiet time is 1A,
1B, if you will, would be
reading. I enjoy reading. If I could
sit somewhere and read
and think, uh, about half a
(05:22):
day I'd be happy. I get something to eat
and go back to sleep and wake up and do the thing the
next day.
>> Loren (05:29):
Love it.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (05:30):
Prayer, reading and quiet time.
>> Loren (05:31):
Uh, that's a good day. That's a good day. You know,
it strikes me that I don't know if
you remember such things, but I certainly remember as a
kid reading about these stories of these ancient, or
shouldn't say ancient, but past Christian leaders talking about
committing two to three hours, you know, a
morning to prayer and scripture. Now it just
(05:52):
seems like the societal
pressure is that how could anyone commit, you know,
it'd be a waste to commit two to three hours, you know, just
grand prayer and scripture.
It's sad that it's, it's come to that, right?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (06:07):
Mhm. Yeah. Because
uh, we are so
filled with what to do next
and uh, when you say that,
it's almost. Yeah. How can
anyone in our faith say
three hours of prayer is a waste?
(06:29):
M. Uh, okay, let's be scriptural. Jesus says
one hour, so maybe three hours is too.
How about that? Let's, let's, let's. Let's be
ultra spiritual here and say, uh, let's. Jesus
says one hour. So let's say.
>> Loren (06:45):
That's great. That's great.
Uh, you know, I didn't ask you anything. I don't have
anything. You know, the questions I have for you about.
Are primarily about your book, but I feel like it would be
important just to say something about your career in
military chaplaincy. I work part
time right now as a hospital chaplain, and I'm certainly, you know,
certainly slightly different work than a military chaplain, I
(07:07):
suppose, in that, you know, you sustained longer
relationships with
folks in the military there than I necessarily do as a hospital
chaplain. But anything you want to say just about your career as a
chaplain that led you or formed
you into your current role in church ministry?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (07:26):
Being a Air Force chaplain
is the next best job to what I do now.
There's no better job
than that call on your life. And to be
able to carry that call on your life while serving your
country and wearing the cloth of your country,
uh, to me, unmatched.
(07:47):
M. Completely unmatched. You are in the very
midst. And there was a thing that we had when I was
active duty that they would
say, okay, what's our purpose? What's our mission? You're
in the midst of everything. And it was the presence of the
holy. M. And in
the midst of war, in the midst of
(08:07):
life and death, in the midst of all of that,
you are the presence of the holy.
And that, to me, is a
formidable place
to be. And, uh, I count it
next to what I do now as nothing
(08:28):
greater to do than that.
>> Speaker E (08:30):
Wow.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (08:31):
To have done than that.
>> Loren (08:33):
And correct me if I'm wrong on the timing here, but I imagine
it's not like you served. You know, you served during some tense
times in our nation when. When
soldiers were at war, going to war. Correct?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (08:45):
That's correct. Um, I was in.
During, uh, Desert Storm. I was
in, of course, the aftermath of that.
Uh, I was in. I served in areas
highly secret areas where I could not wear my
cross, had to take my uniform off.
Uh, what we used to call,
uh, we used to call it the sandbox
(09:08):
and Saudi uae, so on and so forth.
Um, and then also,
uh, I served, you know,
predominantly peacetime, uh, if you will,
and any Time of service.
But those times of service are, uh, particularly,
uh, uh, unforgettable.
>> Speaker E (09:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (09:32):
Well, I suppose this leads into a quote from
your book that really struck me. And I can imagine
how your experience shaped this
sentence or two. That battles
are inevitable and preparation is
intentional. Would you share
what brought you to that realization and how
(09:52):
they shaped this book? And I suppose we should
give a shout out. The title of the book is Leading through
Storms. The title in itself, which struck me,
uh, as important and
meaningful. So do you want to share about, uh,
those words there?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (10:09):
You're leading through storms while maintaining,
uh, your mental health.
And if anybody
should know that battles are
inevitable, it is
those who are leading
with respect to our faith.
(10:31):
Um, and if you are in
leadership, even the more so.
>> Speaker E (10:36):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (10:37):
Because if you are having impact
and kingdom building, then you are going to
have opposition. Jesus said it
himself, uh, the kingdom
is captured, um,
by violence. The violence take
it by storm. How do we
avoid that? It is inevitable
(11:01):
because, uh, what does he say? Upon
this rock I build my church, and the very gates of
hell will not prevail.
>> Speaker E (11:08):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (11:09):
What is happening here? What is happening here is
that Jesus is saying, you are going to
have opposition. Come here, Peter, and have a seat and talk to
us. Peter, Satan
seeks to sift you, but I have
prayed that your faith will
uphold. Okay. Therefore,
(11:29):
I didn't. Jesus didn't say, I, I pray that you won't have
the battle. I prayed that you
have the faith through the battle.
>> Speaker E (11:37):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (11:38):
And so that's what I'm saying by
preparation has to be
intentional because the
battle is inevitable. And
I should say plural battle.
>> Loren (11:51):
Battles. Yeah, that's a good point.
>> Speaker E (11:54):
Yeah.
>> Loren (11:55):
You know, something that struck me too about your book is
certainly I've seen this and, uh, obviously you have too,
where there's an over spiritualization of
crisis. As you write about, you caution leaders
in the book. And again, I really appreciate this. I
think you and I would both agree there are times.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:14):
There are.
>> Loren (12:15):
Whether it's these spiritual powers
are, uh, sometimes attacking us in our ministries. Right.
But I really appreciated how you note that
it can be too easy to blame
everything on the devil.
So I want to hear more about why you think this is such
a tempting move and how we can respond
(12:37):
to crisis with discernment and
not necessarily bypassing responsibility. Because
sometimes crises are, um, of our own making.
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:48):
The choices we make sometimes makes it
easy for the enemy.
>> Speaker E (12:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (12:53):
Yeah, that's a great way to say it. Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:59):
Sometimes he can chill for the day.
You know, the choice that Was not a smart
choice.
>> Speaker E (13:06):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:07):
Or I did yield to temptation.
>> Loren (13:10):
That yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:11):
And I think we'd be far better off. And,
and, and let's not spend a lot of
time of devil navel
gazing.
Um, because
it is easy to then
uh, um, eject
(13:33):
responsibility when you then
blame others to. Including
Satan.
>> Speaker E (13:40):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:40):
Um, and
spending a lot of time.
And I am one who believes in spiritual
warfare. I am one who
believes. And since you. And knowing
your enemy, then knowing yourself.
Um, but the
(14:01):
fact is that if you
over spiritualize the battles,
you may inevitably throw your hands up,
uh, like a hoarder. Hoarders
say they soon
become overwhelmed. That's
in part, of course, it's a mental disorder.
(14:23):
Uh, but they soon become overwhelmed to where they
just give up and do nothing.
>> Loren (14:28):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (14:28):
Therefore the hoarding becomes to a
point where it becomes even life
threatening.
>> Speaker E (14:35):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (14:35):
So it is with our walk with
uh, the Lord and not uh, over spiritualizing. You
can so over spiritualize and
give the enemy so much credit and so
much weight and so much power that
the enemy does not have. Satan doesn't have you
throw your hands up. Yeah,
(14:55):
that's what I really mean, um, by
that.
>> Loren (15:00):
Well, I'm appreciating this perspective. I feel like
there's some correlation here to what you all also
write about just slightly before this in the book
about pruning and being canceled as
a blessing.
And that struck me, I think.
So I for sure want to hear more about that because you write
about this process as a gift.
(15:23):
Can you share more about your own experience and how you've
come to foresee it that see it that way?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (15:30):
In my book. Um, you know, and so let
me put this in context. Our conversation.
>> Speaker E (15:35):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (15:35):
In my, in my book, um, uh, leading
through storms successfully, uh, navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
In, in my book I talk about how I planted
the church. Right. Coming out of the
military, highly successful military career.
Now the church, um, is
(15:56):
a church plant and
um, it is a highly
successful church plant. And then
of course the inevitability of
opposition comes and begins
to attack. And so
uh, with that, when we, when we get
into that whole piece now,
(16:19):
now we talk about
um, how then
do I deal with what is going
on? How do, how do we get
through, through this moment?
Um, and as you are getting
through the moment,
(16:42):
there are times when you are canceled.
>> Speaker E (16:44):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (16:45):
And there is nothing more heart
wrenching I think to a,
a pastor, a
spiritual leader, whether you're over life group, whether
you're over a uh, team of,
uh, greeters at the door, whether you
are the senior pastor, uh, when
someone comes and says, I want off your team.
>> Speaker E (17:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (17:11):
And, and so they're counseling you. Well, what
about when you. In my book, I talk about. There
was a sense, I felt as if, uh, you know, we
had this, this, um, uh, one of our leaders
had, uh, a, uh, failure of judgment.
I made a decision. He, uh,
left. And then, um,
(17:32):
then I had in succession
the youth pastor, the worship leader,
the executive pastor, all
stage left. You
want to talk about feeling canceled?
>> Speaker E (17:47):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (17:49):
Um, and
in those moments, I think
you have to really grab a hold
of what is your leadership ability,
how do you lead out of this? And better
yet, how do you lead yourself?
>> Speaker E (18:07):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:09):
I think this leads into another thing that struck me from
your book. Again, one of the things I appreciate about
your book is you have these like kind of real
simple, succinct sentences that really pack
a punch. They really say a lot. In short,
in a short phrase, you cannot bleed on
the people. And that's such a strong
(18:30):
image to me because maybe
because I've seen this, where someone is dealing with
the kind of setbacks you talk about. You write about
where folks on the ministry team are leaving or
the ministry is not going well in a season and they
get up on stage, they get up on the platform and they just start.
Or maybe it's in a board meeting and they just start bleeding out
(18:51):
on the people. Uh,
certainly we want to be like authentic,
but talk about that, the boundary
and why those boundaries are important of being authentic
but not being boundaryless, as you say.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:07):
The fact is that
I think you have to make sure
that
you can't blame sheep for being sheep.
>> Speaker E (19:20):
Hmm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:22):
Did you think they were going to turn into something else?
>> Speaker E (19:26):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:27):
When it came in the fold, they were sheep.
Sheep. At the slightest
disturbance, scatter.
>> Speaker E (19:37):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:39):
We have this image, we know it well in John
10 where he says, Jesus says, I'm the
door.
>> Speaker E (19:46):
Right?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:46):
Where he actually. And what. We know this
from the Palestinian culture,
uh, that the shepherds
then on, on the meadow side
puts the smallest of obstacles
around them to keep them. And then he lays in the door
and they have to come in and out through him.
(20:07):
Uh, we know this image from the 23rd Psalms
when he says, uh, he leadeth them besides
the steel, water battling water,
they won't drink. It's disturbance. They
easily are, uh, disturbed and
scattered. So when things happen
in the fold and in the flock and they
(20:27):
begin to get disturbed,
why would you bleed on them for Acting
like sheep.
>> Speaker E (20:35):
Hmm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (20:38):
And then. Okay, it hurts, Bishop.
Yeah, it does. What, uh, do I do with my
hurt? If you're not careful, if
you don't find a place to put it,
you will then, in fact, put it on
them. So how do you avoid that? Yeah, you
avoid it by preaching
(20:59):
series.
>> Speaker E (21:01):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:03):
Therefore, you don't. You. You don't on.
On Thursday, Friday, preparation.
Or if you're Saturday night, uh, wonder,
uh, preparation. You then dig
into something that's hurting you, and it comes out in the
message. So you do series.
You have quiet time, prayer time,
(21:25):
reading time. You have a
counselor. You have a counselor.
Uh, therapy is a good thing.
>> Speaker E (21:33):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:33):
That you can take this pain and place it there.
Uh, you have a mentor. So how do you not
do that?
>> Loren (21:40):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:41):
You do want to do it. I mean, who
doesn't want. Uh, my homiletics
professor used to say it's deferred
anger.
>> Speaker E (21:50):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:51):
Um, and if you don't deal with
it, they're going to hear from you.
>> Speaker E (21:56):
Right. Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:58):
And you're going to use the power of the pulpit.
>> Speaker E (22:01):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (22:02):
Um, you know, set some people straight.
>> Speaker E (22:05):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (22:05):
Um, but Sunday morning
and Wednesday night ain't the time to do that.
>> Loren (22:11):
You know, it's interesting you. You. You say that because
certainly, I mean, other contexts have had, or, excuse me, other
conversations I've had with people, even around, like, change
and worship styles. You know, they say, like, Sunday
morning is not the time to bring change
to your church. Like, that's. Like you want to do that.
Well, in smaller and more
(22:32):
controlled environments. I can
imagine. Certainly, uh, there are times where you want to
speak powerfully
about whether it's something going on in society, whether
it's going on within your church. How do you
discern then? How have you
experienced this? When is the time? I
(22:53):
mean, is it running through? Running this
by your mentors, your advisors?
Like, now is the time where I need to speak powerfully
to the whole church on this.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:04):
I think you do. Um,
uh, in my case, I had an executive coach,
which was very helpful.
>> Speaker E (23:12):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:12):
But he's not in that place to have an executive coach.
Uh, and so, yeah, I think you run that and filter
those things through them. But at the end of the day, like
you said, there are times
when a formidable,
um, moment
must take place on Sunday morning
(23:35):
that you have to call the church into
being what it's supposed to be on a Sunday
morning. And that means. And I
would say you do that through a series. You
do that, uh, from a groundswell.
Um, given my. Like, I Said I
come from a Pentecostal holiness background.
>> Speaker E (23:55):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:56):
Um, um.
And there are times when the Holy Spirit moves
that you must speak forcibly
to. It's time to pivot from where
we are. I. So I don't
shrink from that. I don't shrink from that.
Uh, it's just that, ah. Make sure it's not
(24:16):
wrapped in anger.
>> Speaker E (24:18):
Yeah, Yeah.
>> Loren (24:21):
I mean, I suppose it ties back to
much of what you've already said here and I think is such an important
theme of the book is understanding yourself,
being aware of yourself, being aware of
your own stuff. And I think this
transitions to. What really
struck me in your book is just
(24:42):
your honesty, your vulnerability
in the book, which really struck me powerfully. And I
want to recommend it for readers too.
I want to say you write that we
are not what we feel. You say
it for first person or second person. You are not what you
(25:02):
feel. And I think we've all been.
Certainly you write about your seasons in ministry,
difficult seasons in ministry, in the book.
Um, of feeling
devastated. What
was helpful for you when you think about those times where
you felt devastated and
(25:24):
left behind? Um, what
was helpful for you in creating that distinction between
your feelings and yourself?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (25:33):
Ask me again.
>> Loren (25:36):
So again I'm thinking about that quote. You are not what you
feel.
>> Speaker E (25:39):
Mhm.
>> Loren (25:40):
What helped you come to that
distinction?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (25:46):
I think, and that's a great question.
I think the distinguishing
thing is of course, being
authentic, of course, knowing yourself.
Um, and
knowing that feelings are real.
(26:06):
But feelings are not you.
>> Speaker E (26:09):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (26:10):
In as much as
we are spirit beings
on our way to eternity
in a
physical world. And
I have to understand
(26:30):
that this
moment of emotion
is, is. Is a tactical moment,
not a eternal or strategic
moment. And if I turn it into
that, it could be devastating.
Um, so to that end.
(26:52):
So to that end, I have to
distinguish that I'm not
my feelings.
Um, ah, and let me back up,
uh, and say this.
When you.
(27:12):
Ontologically, you have to
know you.
>> Speaker E (27:17):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:20):
And if you
don't, then your feelings will get the
best of you.
>> Speaker E (27:26):
Hmm. Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:31):
And then let's make it even. Let's make it
spiritual.
>> Speaker E (27:35):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:36):
You have to know whose you are.
>> Speaker E (27:38):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:41):
And so to that end,
you're not your feelings. And
when I was up against that, when I had all of these
exits in ministry,
um, when I'm having. In the middle
of construction a bank to pull out.
>> Speaker E (27:59):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:59):
Now I have red iron in the air.
Kind of hard to grow a church when the people come on the campus,
not great optics, and they
know there's not great optics at all.
And they come on the campus and they see a
half built church.
>> Speaker E (28:16):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (28:17):
Um, that's tough.
Um, and then you have to find
things that you hang on
and you give the church to hang
on. I use this phrase then.
I still use it now. God calls us to
do the hard thing. I used to tell the church that,
(28:39):
that we are, uh, one of the churches in this community that
God calls to do the hard thing. He doesn't call every
church to do the hard thing. For whatever reason,
he called us to do the hard thing.
And so when you realize that,
then you can't languish in this
moment. I remember this, I'll say this and we can move on.
(29:00):
Um, I would come on the campus and
okay, half of the sanctuary expansion is,
uh, come on the campus and half the campus
is not done right. And uh,
there's weeds growing up. All of this.
And it hits me, it
hits me, you guys
(29:21):
need to get out here and cut this grass,
do all of this, clean up where this half
construction site is left. Because we were trying to get
another lender, right.
>> Loren (29:31):
More funding.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (29:33):
And so it was a Saturday.
The men had our Saturday morning breakfast,
monthly breakfast. And I told the men, it's ministry.
I said, look, after we have our breakfast,
after we have our, uh, teaching for that morning,
we're all going out here. Get your weed eater, get your
stuff, get all of that. We're going to clean this thing up.
>> Speaker E (29:55):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (29:55):
Do you not know, within months
after we did that, we
got the funding.
>> Speaker E (30:05):
Wow.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:06):
Continue to mean that was more
than a moment or
coincidental.
>> Loren (30:13):
Absolutely.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:13):
Correlation.
>> Loren (30:14):
Absolutely.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:15):
It had everything to do with us
moving in faith.
>> Speaker E (30:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:21):
Had everything to do with us.
Back to this feeling thing.
>> Speaker E (30:25):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:26):
Not woe is me.
>> Speaker E (30:27):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:28):
I'm not gonna. We're not our feelings,
we're not victims.
>> Speaker E (30:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (30:36):
I don't know what. This has always been hard for
me, I suppose, to
accept begrudgingly in my own life, in own
experience. But uh, there really is such a
truth to that that God
says, like, I get you can't,
you know, build the whole ship, but I need you to at least bring the tools or,
(30:57):
you know, whatever the metaphor you want to use. So
it strikes me that in that season
of I can imagine, immense
frustration, great pain, disillusionment,
you know, you want to just like let that go
and go to rot and say, woe is me. And then
you say, let's clean this up.
(31:19):
It's a little thing you and the
church chose to be faithful with.
Ah. So I'm appreciating because
I'm in a season of life where I'm just trying to tell myself
what has God placed in front of me that I can be faithful with?
So, uh, I'm appreciating that
testimony even now and I hope
(31:40):
what's helpful for our listeners because just such a good
reminder, I do want to ask
on this too, because I think it was again, something that struck me
powerfully from your book and I want to respect
your boundaries here. So share your
as much or as little as you're comfortable sharing within your own,
your own boundaries, your vulnerabilities. But
(32:01):
I think it really struck me about your honesty about your
suicidal ideations during that time.
So then I want to respect your boundaries and what
you're comfortable sharing. But anything you're willing to share just
about that, because again, that struck me as just
powerful honesty.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:19):
Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, actually,
because I do think it is something that we need to talk about.
Uh, I do think we, we need to be
honest with ourselves,
with the weight of ministry.
>> Loren (32:36):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:37):
And how we
pull it to ourselves and not to
him.
>> Speaker E (32:43):
Oh, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:46):
Um,
I think don't want to put on
ministers. Some of us
have a superhero conflict.
Some of us. Not all of us.
>> Speaker E (33:00):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:01):
You know, a lot of, you know, everybody, uh,
I don't put that on everybody but one or two of
us.
>> Speaker E (33:07):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:09):
Got into this whole thing to go into the
phone, uh, booth and come out and save the world. World.
>> Speaker E (33:15):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:15):
I mean, let's face it.
>> Speaker E (33:17):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:18):
We have that sense. And in that
whole approach. And again, you know,
it's, it's um, you know, leading through
storms, successfully navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
>> Speaker E (33:32):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:33):
Not at all suggesting that anyone, to include
myself, are mentally ill.
Yeah. Not that that is something.
Ooh. Ah, shame. Because
that's an illness, like cancer, like
heart disease, whatever. But in
the midst of that, that pressure,
(33:54):
in the midst of driving on that campus
and half done, in the
midst of families coming and
saying, I'm going to find somewhere else to worship.
>> Speaker E (34:05):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:06):
In the midst of leading the corps, who stuck
with the whole vision, and I thank God for
them. And in the midst of coming on the
other side of that, I did suffer
with. How do I solve this problem?
Leaders solve.
>> Speaker E (34:22):
Yes. Yep.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:24):
They solve problems. How do I solve
this? What came to me,
the best way to solve this,
Take myself out of the equation.
>> Speaker E (34:37):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:38):
Suicide.
>> Speaker E (34:38):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:40):
Let the key man, uh,
insurance.
>> Speaker E (34:44):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:44):
For everything. Church
moves on. I'm not worried. I'm in
glory.
>> Speaker E (34:50):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:51):
Um, and that's what I
had said to myself in the book.
I talk about this, uh, I'd
encourage people to get it to, to see.
So here I am. I am gone
to preach for, uh, a
seminary buddy whose ministry who's
(35:12):
absolutely exploded.
Mega situation. Truly a mega
situation. Satellite churches
everywhere. And he finally gives
me a nod. He thinks about his old buddy,
finally gives me a shot, like, now you finally remember
(35:33):
me. Don't you remember we went through seminary together, both of us. We were
pretty poor, uh, pretty pathetic kind of
guys. And now. So it gives me an
opportunity to come and minister. I get there.
I'm totally, um,
preoccupied with the moment. I'm
overwhelmed with my situation and my context.
(35:54):
And, uh, I have been trying to debate
back and forward with the
lenders who are threatening to come and
give me and say, take the keys and all of that.
>> Speaker E (36:05):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (36:06):
And I'm thinking,
this is the best way out.
This is what else?
And then my executive
coach calls me, not
knowing at all. I have been trying to call
him because we're trying to put together a strategy,
(36:28):
calls me back. He says
something to me I will never ever
forget. He says,
jeff,
if you do this,
you will not know how God is
going to bring you out.
(36:56):
I just think about that.
I ain't gone. I moved back from
the window.
Um,
it had to be God.
Had to be God. I
stepped back.
(37:19):
I'm in tears. I get
it together. I minister that night,
my friend, my seminary buddy, he never knows
what is, what's going on.
Uh,
and that moment. And in that
moment, I quit. And
(37:40):
I say this in my book, I quit marching
to the drum beat of that
ideation. But m to the fact
that. And he encouraged
me because a coach does not do
therapy. So he encouraged me to
get with my therapist. We began
(38:01):
to talk about that
superhero.
But you came back. Yeah,
Jesus, they already pull
lots for his robe.
>> Speaker E (38:16):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (38:16):
You don't have to die for this. He already dies.
>> Speaker E (38:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (38:23):
Yeah. That was one of the
most pivotal moments in
my ministry.
>> Speaker E (38:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (38:32):
Well, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for you sharing
that both in your book and, you know, here on
this, this podcast.
I just, you know, I'm struck by
the importance, just like you said, of sharing these things.
I, uh, just had to do a training, you know, in my chaplaincy role
for, you know, suicide ideation. And I think it's so
(38:53):
hard. We want to kind of be
around the bush and not have these direct
conversations. But I'm just reminded of even in my
training about how asking direct questions, you know,
to people and how are you feeling? Like, are you thinking
about harming yourself? Like, these kind of conversations, they do matter,
and they do have an impact.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (39:13):
They do. And it's the same, or probably.
Um, I'm sure I had a similar training when I was a chaplain.
>> Speaker E (39:19):
Right, right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (39:20):
And we do step away. We do shy away from
asking that because we don't want to project.
We don't want to seem like, oh, are you crazy?
We don't want to do all of those things. Excuse
me. Uh, and those are hard conversations. And in
fact, the person on the other end,
that's exactly what they need to hear.
>> Speaker E (39:39):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (39:43):
Well, I really, again, I really appreciate your sharing
that. Um, I suppose before.
One last question here before we take a break, I think, again,
a simple quote. You said that
that resonated me here from the book. You know, you said, plant the
church first. Again, you
ended the book, or near the end of the book with that. It
(40:03):
sounds simple, but I can see so much beneath the surface.
Anything you want to say to that end?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (40:09):
Yeah, you know, we, um, did something
that I do not encourage church
planters to do, and I'm in the
midst of planting some more churches.
And we were building and planting
and building the people at the same time.
I would never do that again. I would
(40:32):
plant the church as in grow the
people before I try to build a building.
>> Speaker E (40:37):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (40:39):
Because, um, doing both
not recommended, unless you enjoy pain.
Um, um, because it's
tough. And that's what I was saying then.
And I would. I plan on doing that approach
going forward as we plant some other churches from
our mother church.
>> Speaker E (41:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:01):
Good stuff. Well, the book is Leading through
storms, successfully navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
I hope, listeners, you got a sense of just how
powerful, uh, the book is. And, um, Bishop
Dudley's testimony and words here are in the
book. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
(41:25):
Okay. We're back with Bishop, uh, Jeffrey Dudley,
Sr. I should add the senior, because I am actually
myself a junior, and, uh, my father
is a pastor, too. These closing questions, you're
welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
to. But if you're a pope for a day,
what might you want to do with that day?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (41:46):
If I was Pope for the day,
I would call together all of the world
leaders, faith leaders, and
I would try to solve the
problem in Gaza.
>> Speaker E (42:00):
M. Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (42:02):
The starvation that is happening. And I
would try to get the political leaders
to see humanity and not political
power.
>> Speaker E (42:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (42:15):
You know,
I was struck by that this morning and had been
thinking, praying,
even on my limited impact,
how can I move the needle towards
humanity
in that regard? My goodness,
(42:36):
uh, awful.
Do you have a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (42:46):
2 I would want to bring back
to life and meet Bonhoeffer and
Martin Luther King Jr. I love to sit down and talk with
them. Then I'd love for them to lead
us in this very divisive
moment that we find ourselves in right now.
Bonhoeffer, because he uh,
was very, ah, insightful
(43:09):
in seeing, uh, the waywardness of,
um, Christians in that moment
and their parochialism,
um, and being used by the government
to advance, ah, political agenda and not,
uh, kingdom agenda and Martin
Luther King, uh, in that,
(43:31):
uh, very similar age, uh,
and causing uh, the country
to live up to its ideals.
>> Speaker E (43:40):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (43:42):
Well, I suppose another potentially heavy question here.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (43:50):
I think, kids, history will see us
as revisiting and reliving,
uh, Reconstruction.
We are in now a neo real
Reconstruction moment.
>> Loren (44:03):
Interesting.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (44:04):
After the Civil War,
um, there was great,
um, acceleration
of former
enslaved people, African
Americans. Um, quickly
after that, uh, we went into
Jim Crow, which was a white lash
(44:25):
against the moving
forward of African Americans.
And for that time, the late
1800s to the early 1900s.
From that time to, uh, we were into
um, um, we were
in uh, the Jim Crow era
(44:46):
and uh, the segregation era all the way
up to the 40s and the 50s,
so about 40 years. That's four decades.
Uh, we move now into now
a post Obama era.
I call it a neo Reconstruction
era. And I think, uh, history,
(45:08):
when it looks back in this moment, we'll see we
are now again revisiting those things
because the same types of
advances with laws are
happening, um, equal to
that then. And so I think when we
look at uh, peace, we will see
(45:28):
that and the shrinking of
what um, is the church doing.
>> Speaker E (45:34):
Hmm.
>> Loren (45:34):
I'm struck by that. I don't think I've heard it in that
phrasing or that that context. And I think
that makes a lot, a lot of sense. If I'm, if I'm
remembering history correctly, this idea that like a lot
of these, like um, like the monuments. Right.
That became a source of
attention for so many over the last few years. Like some of
these, like the Robert E. Lee memorials for instance, were
(45:57):
built. Right, right in that post
Reconstruction era. Am I Correct on that.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:03):
Yeah. The 40s and the 50s as a
response to pushback.
Nothing to do with culture.
>> Speaker E (46:11):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:12):
Uh, had nothing to do with
um, uh, the southern culture.
Nothing. Zero,
nada.
>> Speaker E (46:21):
Wow.
>> Loren (46:22):
I, I again, you know, the, the quote
that's been resonating with me of late is the idea that history
may not repeat itself but sure does rhyme.
So it's a fresh like that. I don't
remember who said that, but that your, your story
sure is just another fresh reminder of that, that
being true in many ways.
(46:44):
Well, how about something more hopeful? What do you hope for the future
of Christianity?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:48):
I hope that we begin to be
more like Jesus and less like religion.
That here is Jesus,
um, the person.
And my hope is, is that
we then go hard
after him and
(47:11):
not after
the religiosity of being
a Christian. We have now
a movement if you will.
Um,
um, the Christian nationalism
is really a,
(47:33):
it is a um, movement
that somehow another people see that this is
Jesus. I'm struck by
that.
>> Speaker E (47:45):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:46):
Christianity is about other.
>> Speaker E (47:49):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:51):
And whenever you make other
an enemy.
>> Speaker E (47:55):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:55):
That's not Christianity.
>> Speaker E (47:57):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:59):
And so, but I believe. I
believe and you say
hopeful and I agree. The hope
is this,
this hope we have in Jesus.
>> Loren (48:16):
Now you're preaching here.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Absolutely.
>> Speaker E (48:21):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:22):
In my tradition we say hold your ear and. Yeah.
Because this hope we have in Jesus.
>> Speaker E (48:29):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:30):
Is there another hope? What is hope? Paul
said, what is hope if hope is not in
hope?
>> Speaker E (48:37):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:38):
So I have that hope. I have that
hope and I'm going to preach Jesus.
>> Speaker E (48:44):
Amen.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:47):
Yeah. And I believe that.
>> Loren (48:50):
Well, uh, what a blessing,
uh, and pleasure this conversation has been.
I'm so thankful for uh, your perspectives
and that you shared this with me and with our audience.
Share, if you would, how people can connect with you, get the
book, all that stuff.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (49:06):
Well, what they can do, I would love for them to get
the book. It's on uh, Amazon. It's
um, at uh, Barnes and Noble or
they can go to University Varsity Press. Get it?
Well, you can just go, uh, come on my website.
The uh, church's website, uh, of course is
www uh.this is my new
(49:27):
life.com. this is my new
life.com. that's not hard to remember. This is
my new life dot com. That's our church website.
And you can find me on all
platforms, all social media platforms. And
that is Bishop Dudley PhD at
Bishop Dudley PhD on all of those. And
(49:48):
you can check uh, it out. We're right here in
the uh, on the east side of the Mississippi
river, the St. Louis metropolitan area
bedroom community, O', Fallon, Illinois.
Um, at 689 Scott Troy Road.
And we'd love for you to come by or check us out,
uh, online. Um, again, uh,
(50:08):
that's at New. At New
Life. Um, no, wait
a minute, let me get it right, because
we've changed it @
New Life TV. That's it.
>> Speaker E (50:21):
Sure.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (50:22):
Yeah, that's it. Get your. There. Uh, you know,
the. Up. We could do stuff.
>> Loren (50:27):
Your marketing person would. Would, uh, would
be gritting their teeth, I suppose. Right.
Well, again, thank you so much for the. The conversation. I appreciate
your perspectives. Uh, we always lead folks with
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (50:43):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (50:52):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at Future Dash
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
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(51:13):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Dr. Jeffrey V. Dudley Sr.
Dr. Dudley is a retired Air Force
chaplain, bishop, authority and leadership
coach. A lifelong minister and
visionary leader, Dr. Dudley is the founding
pastor of New Life in Christ Church, one
(01:06):
of the fastest growing churches in the St.
Louis metro area, and the CEO
of New Life Community Development Corporation,
which leads major community initiatives,
including a $20 million affordable
housing project. A uh, John Maxwell
associate trainer and author of six books,
including Leading Through Storms. He
(01:29):
also mentors leaders through
ileadacademy.net and changing
lives Ministries. He and his wife, Glenda,
have two adult children engaged in ministry
and nonprofit leadership. A
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
(01:51):
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
laurensonatemediapro
uh.com with
comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:19):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name
is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm glad to be recording
today with Bishop Dudley. Thank, uh, you so much for
your, uh, presence here and your conversation.
Uh, thanks for being here and anything else you want to say about
yourself before we begin?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (02:36):
Well, you know, I'm not sure what I want to say other
than I'm thankful that you have me on. I know you're going to
ask me a lot of other questions. I was thinking about that when you said,
okay, what else would you want to say that's not already in
your bio? Right? Thing that came to my mind is that I
like, uh, butter, um, butter
pecan ice cream. How about that? So we start with that.
>> Loren (02:57):
That's a good, that's a good one to share. You know, it
reminds me, I had an interview a
while back and they asked me, what would your, what kind of ice cream would you be if
you're an ice cream? And it really Threw me. So I think
butter pecan would be a good answer actually for that kind of question.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (03:12):
So true, so true.
>> Loren (03:15):
Well, uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith background,
uh, how that, how that journey began and what
that looks like today.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (03:22):
Well, um, I gave my life to Christ, uh, at the
age of 12 at a summer
Christian camp of our denomination. I'm,
uh, I come up in a Pentecostal holiness,
um, um, faith
background. And um, it
actually is the oldest incorporated Pentecostal
denomination in the country, United Only Church
(03:45):
of America Incorporated. And so I gave my life
to Christ, uh, at that summer camp,
um, in the, uh, right off
the beach of North Carolina, near
Wilmington. Never will Forget it at 12.
And uh, and from there, you know,
just kind of matriculated through the denomination. And I
(04:05):
came into. I, um, had this
sense of a call on my life at
age 13, uh, because from my tradition,
you can come and minister whenever you sense
to call on your life. And I did.
And um, and I had a brother
who was in the navy at the time. He came home. I
(04:26):
played basketball. Never forget it. He said, you know, he
said, jeff, you would you.
There's a chaplain in the Navy. And he
described the duties of the chaplain.
It resonated with me. From that point on, I
wanted to serve as a chaplain and I was blessed to
serve as an Air force chaplain for
(04:47):
21 and a half years. Yeah.
>> Loren (04:52):
What has been some serious practices that you have sustained
you during your ministry career?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (04:58):
Prayer.
>> Speaker E (04:59):
Prayer.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (05:00):
Prayer. First and foremost,
prayer. And then, um, quiet
time. Close to quiet time. Prayer is
one. Quiet time is 1A,
1B, if you will, would be
reading. I enjoy reading. If I could
sit somewhere and read
and think, uh, about half a
(05:22):
day I'd be happy. I get something to eat
and go back to sleep and wake up and do the thing the
next day.
>> Loren (05:29):
Love it.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (05:30):
Prayer, reading and quiet time.
>> Loren (05:31):
Uh, that's a good day. That's a good day. You know,
it strikes me that I don't know if
you remember such things, but I certainly remember as a
kid reading about these stories of these ancient, or
shouldn't say ancient, but past Christian leaders talking about
committing two to three hours, you know, a
morning to prayer and scripture. Now it just
(05:52):
seems like the societal
pressure is that how could anyone commit, you know,
it'd be a waste to commit two to three hours, you know, just
grand prayer and scripture.
It's sad that it's, it's come to that, right?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (06:07):
Mhm. Yeah. Because
uh, we are so
filled with what to do next
and uh, when you say that,
it's almost. Yeah. How can
anyone in our faith say
three hours of prayer is a waste?
(06:29):
M. Uh, okay, let's be scriptural. Jesus says
one hour, so maybe three hours is too.
How about that? Let's, let's, let's. Let's be
ultra spiritual here and say, uh, let's. Jesus
says one hour. So let's say.
>> Loren (06:45):
That's great. That's great.
Uh, you know, I didn't ask you anything. I don't have
anything. You know, the questions I have for you about.
Are primarily about your book, but I feel like it would be
important just to say something about your career in
military chaplaincy. I work part
time right now as a hospital chaplain, and I'm certainly, you know,
certainly slightly different work than a military chaplain, I
(07:07):
suppose, in that, you know, you sustained longer
relationships with
folks in the military there than I necessarily do as a hospital
chaplain. But anything you want to say just about your career as a
chaplain that led you or formed
you into your current role in church ministry?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (07:26):
Being a Air Force chaplain
is the next best job to what I do now.
There's no better job
than that call on your life. And to be
able to carry that call on your life while serving your
country and wearing the cloth of your country,
uh, to me, unmatched.
(07:47):
M. Completely unmatched. You are in the very
midst. And there was a thing that we had when I was
active duty that they would
say, okay, what's our purpose? What's our mission? You're
in the midst of everything. And it was the presence of the
holy. M. And in
the midst of war, in the midst of
(08:07):
life and death, in the midst of all of that,
you are the presence of the holy.
And that, to me, is a
formidable place
to be. And, uh, I count it
next to what I do now as nothing
(08:28):
greater to do than that.
>> Speaker E (08:30):
Wow.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (08:31):
To have done than that.
>> Loren (08:33):
And correct me if I'm wrong on the timing here, but I imagine
it's not like you served. You know, you served during some tense
times in our nation when. When
soldiers were at war, going to war. Correct?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (08:45):
That's correct. Um, I was in.
During, uh, Desert Storm. I was
in, of course, the aftermath of that.
Uh, I was in. I served in areas
highly secret areas where I could not wear my
cross, had to take my uniform off.
Uh, what we used to call,
uh, we used to call it the sandbox
(09:08):
and Saudi uae, so on and so forth.
Um, and then also,
uh, I served, you know,
predominantly peacetime, uh, if you will,
and any Time of service.
But those times of service are, uh, particularly,
uh, uh, unforgettable.
>> Speaker E (09:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (09:32):
Well, I suppose this leads into a quote from
your book that really struck me. And I can imagine
how your experience shaped this
sentence or two. That battles
are inevitable and preparation is
intentional. Would you share
what brought you to that realization and how
(09:52):
they shaped this book? And I suppose we should
give a shout out. The title of the book is Leading through
Storms. The title in itself, which struck me,
uh, as important and
meaningful. So do you want to share about, uh,
those words there?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (10:09):
You're leading through storms while maintaining,
uh, your mental health.
And if anybody
should know that battles are
inevitable, it is
those who are leading
with respect to our faith.
(10:31):
Um, and if you are in
leadership, even the more so.
>> Speaker E (10:36):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (10:37):
Because if you are having impact
and kingdom building, then you are going to
have opposition. Jesus said it
himself, uh, the kingdom
is captured, um,
by violence. The violence take
it by storm. How do we
avoid that? It is inevitable
(11:01):
because, uh, what does he say? Upon
this rock I build my church, and the very gates of
hell will not prevail.
>> Speaker E (11:08):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (11:09):
What is happening here? What is happening here is
that Jesus is saying, you are going to
have opposition. Come here, Peter, and have a seat and talk to
us. Peter, Satan
seeks to sift you, but I have
prayed that your faith will
uphold. Okay. Therefore,
(11:29):
I didn't. Jesus didn't say, I, I pray that you won't have
the battle. I prayed that you
have the faith through the battle.
>> Speaker E (11:37):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (11:38):
And so that's what I'm saying by
preparation has to be
intentional because the
battle is inevitable. And
I should say plural battle.
>> Loren (11:51):
Battles. Yeah, that's a good point.
>> Speaker E (11:54):
Yeah.
>> Loren (11:55):
You know, something that struck me too about your book is
certainly I've seen this and, uh, obviously you have too,
where there's an over spiritualization of
crisis. As you write about, you caution leaders
in the book. And again, I really appreciate this. I
think you and I would both agree there are times.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:14):
There are.
>> Loren (12:15):
Whether it's these spiritual powers
are, uh, sometimes attacking us in our ministries. Right.
But I really appreciated how you note that
it can be too easy to blame
everything on the devil.
So I want to hear more about why you think this is such
a tempting move and how we can respond
(12:37):
to crisis with discernment and
not necessarily bypassing responsibility. Because
sometimes crises are, um, of our own making.
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:48):
The choices we make sometimes makes it
easy for the enemy.
>> Speaker E (12:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (12:53):
Yeah, that's a great way to say it. Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (12:59):
Sometimes he can chill for the day.
You know, the choice that Was not a smart
choice.
>> Speaker E (13:06):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:07):
Or I did yield to temptation.
>> Loren (13:10):
That yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:11):
And I think we'd be far better off. And,
and, and let's not spend a lot of
time of devil navel
gazing.
Um, because
it is easy to then
uh, um, eject
(13:33):
responsibility when you then
blame others to. Including
Satan.
>> Speaker E (13:40):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (13:40):
Um, and
spending a lot of time.
And I am one who believes in spiritual
warfare. I am one who
believes. And since you. And knowing
your enemy, then knowing yourself.
Um, but the
(14:01):
fact is that if you
over spiritualize the battles,
you may inevitably throw your hands up,
uh, like a hoarder. Hoarders
say they soon
become overwhelmed. That's
in part, of course, it's a mental disorder.
(14:23):
Uh, but they soon become overwhelmed to where they
just give up and do nothing.
>> Loren (14:28):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (14:28):
Therefore the hoarding becomes to a
point where it becomes even life
threatening.
>> Speaker E (14:35):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (14:35):
So it is with our walk with
uh, the Lord and not uh, over spiritualizing. You
can so over spiritualize and
give the enemy so much credit and so
much weight and so much power that
the enemy does not have. Satan doesn't have you
throw your hands up. Yeah,
(14:55):
that's what I really mean, um, by
that.
>> Loren (15:00):
Well, I'm appreciating this perspective. I feel like
there's some correlation here to what you all also
write about just slightly before this in the book
about pruning and being canceled as
a blessing.
And that struck me, I think.
So I for sure want to hear more about that because you write
about this process as a gift.
(15:23):
Can you share more about your own experience and how you've
come to foresee it that see it that way?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (15:30):
In my book. Um, you know, and so let
me put this in context. Our conversation.
>> Speaker E (15:35):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (15:35):
In my, in my book, um, uh, leading
through storms successfully, uh, navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
In, in my book I talk about how I planted
the church. Right. Coming out of the
military, highly successful military career.
Now the church, um, is
(15:56):
a church plant and
um, it is a highly
successful church plant. And then
of course the inevitability of
opposition comes and begins
to attack. And so
uh, with that, when we, when we get
into that whole piece now,
(16:19):
now we talk about
um, how then
do I deal with what is going
on? How do, how do we get
through, through this moment?
Um, and as you are getting
through the moment,
(16:42):
there are times when you are canceled.
>> Speaker E (16:44):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (16:45):
And there is nothing more heart
wrenching I think to a,
a pastor, a
spiritual leader, whether you're over life group, whether
you're over a uh, team of,
uh, greeters at the door, whether you
are the senior pastor, uh, when
someone comes and says, I want off your team.
>> Speaker E (17:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (17:11):
And, and so they're counseling you. Well, what
about when you. In my book, I talk about. There
was a sense, I felt as if, uh, you know, we
had this, this, um, uh, one of our leaders
had, uh, a, uh, failure of judgment.
I made a decision. He, uh,
left. And then, um,
(17:32):
then I had in succession
the youth pastor, the worship leader,
the executive pastor, all
stage left. You
want to talk about feeling canceled?
>> Speaker E (17:47):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (17:49):
Um, and
in those moments, I think
you have to really grab a hold
of what is your leadership ability,
how do you lead out of this? And better
yet, how do you lead yourself?
>> Speaker E (18:07):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:09):
I think this leads into another thing that struck me from
your book. Again, one of the things I appreciate about
your book is you have these like kind of real
simple, succinct sentences that really pack
a punch. They really say a lot. In short,
in a short phrase, you cannot bleed on
the people. And that's such a strong
(18:30):
image to me because maybe
because I've seen this, where someone is dealing with
the kind of setbacks you talk about. You write about
where folks on the ministry team are leaving or
the ministry is not going well in a season and they
get up on stage, they get up on the platform and they just start.
Or maybe it's in a board meeting and they just start bleeding out
(18:51):
on the people. Uh,
certainly we want to be like authentic,
but talk about that, the boundary
and why those boundaries are important of being authentic
but not being boundaryless, as you say.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:07):
The fact is that
I think you have to make sure
that
you can't blame sheep for being sheep.
>> Speaker E (19:20):
Hmm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:22):
Did you think they were going to turn into something else?
>> Speaker E (19:26):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:27):
When it came in the fold, they were sheep.
Sheep. At the slightest
disturbance, scatter.
>> Speaker E (19:37):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:39):
We have this image, we know it well in John
10 where he says, Jesus says, I'm the
door.
>> Speaker E (19:46):
Right?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (19:46):
Where he actually. And what. We know this
from the Palestinian culture,
uh, that the shepherds
then on, on the meadow side
puts the smallest of obstacles
around them to keep them. And then he lays in the door
and they have to come in and out through him.
(20:07):
Uh, we know this image from the 23rd Psalms
when he says, uh, he leadeth them besides
the steel, water battling water,
they won't drink. It's disturbance. They
easily are, uh, disturbed and
scattered. So when things happen
in the fold and in the flock and they
(20:27):
begin to get disturbed,
why would you bleed on them for Acting
like sheep.
>> Speaker E (20:35):
Hmm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (20:38):
And then. Okay, it hurts, Bishop.
Yeah, it does. What, uh, do I do with my
hurt? If you're not careful, if
you don't find a place to put it,
you will then, in fact, put it on
them. So how do you avoid that? Yeah, you
avoid it by preaching
(20:59):
series.
>> Speaker E (21:01):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:03):
Therefore, you don't. You. You don't on.
On Thursday, Friday, preparation.
Or if you're Saturday night, uh, wonder,
uh, preparation. You then dig
into something that's hurting you, and it comes out in the
message. So you do series.
You have quiet time, prayer time,
(21:25):
reading time. You have a
counselor. You have a counselor.
Uh, therapy is a good thing.
>> Speaker E (21:33):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:33):
That you can take this pain and place it there.
Uh, you have a mentor. So how do you not
do that?
>> Loren (21:40):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:41):
You do want to do it. I mean, who
doesn't want. Uh, my homiletics
professor used to say it's deferred
anger.
>> Speaker E (21:50):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:51):
Um, and if you don't deal with
it, they're going to hear from you.
>> Speaker E (21:56):
Right. Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (21:58):
And you're going to use the power of the pulpit.
>> Speaker E (22:01):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (22:02):
Um, you know, set some people straight.
>> Speaker E (22:05):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (22:05):
Um, but Sunday morning
and Wednesday night ain't the time to do that.
>> Loren (22:11):
You know, it's interesting you. You. You say that because
certainly, I mean, other contexts have had, or, excuse me, other
conversations I've had with people, even around, like, change
and worship styles. You know, they say, like, Sunday
morning is not the time to bring change
to your church. Like, that's. Like you want to do that.
Well, in smaller and more
(22:32):
controlled environments. I can
imagine. Certainly, uh, there are times where you want to
speak powerfully
about whether it's something going on in society, whether
it's going on within your church. How do you
discern then? How have you
experienced this? When is the time? I
(22:53):
mean, is it running through? Running this
by your mentors, your advisors?
Like, now is the time where I need to speak powerfully
to the whole church on this.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:04):
I think you do. Um,
uh, in my case, I had an executive coach,
which was very helpful.
>> Speaker E (23:12):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:12):
But he's not in that place to have an executive coach.
Uh, and so, yeah, I think you run that and filter
those things through them. But at the end of the day, like
you said, there are times
when a formidable,
um, moment
must take place on Sunday morning
(23:35):
that you have to call the church into
being what it's supposed to be on a Sunday
morning. And that means. And I
would say you do that through a series. You
do that, uh, from a groundswell.
Um, given my. Like, I Said I
come from a Pentecostal holiness background.
>> Speaker E (23:55):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (23:56):
Um, um.
And there are times when the Holy Spirit moves
that you must speak forcibly
to. It's time to pivot from where
we are. I. So I don't
shrink from that. I don't shrink from that.
Uh, it's just that, ah. Make sure it's not
(24:16):
wrapped in anger.
>> Speaker E (24:18):
Yeah, Yeah.
>> Loren (24:21):
I mean, I suppose it ties back to
much of what you've already said here and I think is such an important
theme of the book is understanding yourself,
being aware of yourself, being aware of
your own stuff. And I think this
transitions to. What really
struck me in your book is just
(24:42):
your honesty, your vulnerability
in the book, which really struck me powerfully. And I
want to recommend it for readers too.
I want to say you write that we
are not what we feel. You say
it for first person or second person. You are not what you
(25:02):
feel. And I think we've all been.
Certainly you write about your seasons in ministry,
difficult seasons in ministry, in the book.
Um, of feeling
devastated. What
was helpful for you when you think about those times where
you felt devastated and
(25:24):
left behind? Um, what
was helpful for you in creating that distinction between
your feelings and yourself?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (25:33):
Ask me again.
>> Loren (25:36):
So again I'm thinking about that quote. You are not what you
feel.
>> Speaker E (25:39):
Mhm.
>> Loren (25:40):
What helped you come to that
distinction?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (25:46):
I think, and that's a great question.
I think the distinguishing
thing is of course, being
authentic, of course, knowing yourself.
Um, and
knowing that feelings are real.
(26:06):
But feelings are not you.
>> Speaker E (26:09):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (26:10):
In as much as
we are spirit beings
on our way to eternity
in a
physical world. And
I have to understand
(26:30):
that this
moment of emotion
is, is. Is a tactical moment,
not a eternal or strategic
moment. And if I turn it into
that, it could be devastating.
Um, so to that end.
(26:52):
So to that end, I have to
distinguish that I'm not
my feelings.
Um, ah, and let me back up,
uh, and say this.
When you.
(27:12):
Ontologically, you have to
know you.
>> Speaker E (27:17):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:20):
And if you
don't, then your feelings will get the
best of you.
>> Speaker E (27:26):
Hmm. Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:31):
And then let's make it even. Let's make it
spiritual.
>> Speaker E (27:35):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:36):
You have to know whose you are.
>> Speaker E (27:38):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:41):
And so to that end,
you're not your feelings. And
when I was up against that, when I had all of these
exits in ministry,
um, when I'm having. In the middle
of construction a bank to pull out.
>> Speaker E (27:59):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (27:59):
Now I have red iron in the air.
Kind of hard to grow a church when the people come on the campus,
not great optics, and they
know there's not great optics at all.
And they come on the campus and they see a
half built church.
>> Speaker E (28:16):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (28:17):
Um, that's tough.
Um, and then you have to find
things that you hang on
and you give the church to hang
on. I use this phrase then.
I still use it now. God calls us to
do the hard thing. I used to tell the church that,
(28:39):
that we are, uh, one of the churches in this community that
God calls to do the hard thing. He doesn't call every
church to do the hard thing. For whatever reason,
he called us to do the hard thing.
And so when you realize that,
then you can't languish in this
moment. I remember this, I'll say this and we can move on.
(29:00):
Um, I would come on the campus and
okay, half of the sanctuary expansion is,
uh, come on the campus and half the campus
is not done right. And uh,
there's weeds growing up. All of this.
And it hits me, it
hits me, you guys
(29:21):
need to get out here and cut this grass,
do all of this, clean up where this half
construction site is left. Because we were trying to get
another lender, right.
>> Loren (29:31):
More funding.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (29:33):
And so it was a Saturday.
The men had our Saturday morning breakfast,
monthly breakfast. And I told the men, it's ministry.
I said, look, after we have our breakfast,
after we have our, uh, teaching for that morning,
we're all going out here. Get your weed eater, get your
stuff, get all of that. We're going to clean this thing up.
>> Speaker E (29:55):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (29:55):
Do you not know, within months
after we did that, we
got the funding.
>> Speaker E (30:05):
Wow.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:06):
Continue to mean that was more
than a moment or
coincidental.
>> Loren (30:13):
Absolutely.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:13):
Correlation.
>> Loren (30:14):
Absolutely.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:15):
It had everything to do with us
moving in faith.
>> Speaker E (30:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:21):
Had everything to do with us.
Back to this feeling thing.
>> Speaker E (30:25):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:26):
Not woe is me.
>> Speaker E (30:27):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (30:28):
I'm not gonna. We're not our feelings,
we're not victims.
>> Speaker E (30:34):
Yeah.
>> Loren (30:36):
I don't know what. This has always been hard for
me, I suppose, to
accept begrudgingly in my own life, in own
experience. But uh, there really is such a
truth to that that God
says, like, I get you can't,
you know, build the whole ship, but I need you to at least bring the tools or,
(30:57):
you know, whatever the metaphor you want to use. So
it strikes me that in that season
of I can imagine, immense
frustration, great pain, disillusionment,
you know, you want to just like let that go
and go to rot and say, woe is me. And then
you say, let's clean this up.
(31:19):
It's a little thing you and the
church chose to be faithful with.
Ah. So I'm appreciating because
I'm in a season of life where I'm just trying to tell myself
what has God placed in front of me that I can be faithful with?
So, uh, I'm appreciating that
testimony even now and I hope
(31:40):
what's helpful for our listeners because just such a good
reminder, I do want to ask
on this too, because I think it was again, something that struck me
powerfully from your book and I want to respect
your boundaries here. So share your
as much or as little as you're comfortable sharing within your own,
your own boundaries, your vulnerabilities. But
(32:01):
I think it really struck me about your honesty about your
suicidal ideations during that time.
So then I want to respect your boundaries and what
you're comfortable sharing. But anything you're willing to share just
about that, because again, that struck me as just
powerful honesty.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:19):
Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, actually,
because I do think it is something that we need to talk about.
Uh, I do think we, we need to be
honest with ourselves,
with the weight of ministry.
>> Loren (32:36):
Yes.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:37):
And how we
pull it to ourselves and not to
him.
>> Speaker E (32:43):
Oh, yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (32:46):
Um,
I think don't want to put on
ministers. Some of us
have a superhero conflict.
Some of us. Not all of us.
>> Speaker E (33:00):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:01):
You know, a lot of, you know, everybody, uh,
I don't put that on everybody but one or two of
us.
>> Speaker E (33:07):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:09):
Got into this whole thing to go into the
phone, uh, booth and come out and save the world. World.
>> Speaker E (33:15):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:15):
I mean, let's face it.
>> Speaker E (33:17):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:18):
We have that sense. And in that
whole approach. And again, you know,
it's, it's um, you know, leading through
storms, successfully navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
>> Speaker E (33:32):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (33:33):
Not at all suggesting that anyone, to include
myself, are mentally ill.
Yeah. Not that that is something.
Ooh. Ah, shame. Because
that's an illness, like cancer, like
heart disease, whatever. But in
the midst of that, that pressure,
(33:54):
in the midst of driving on that campus
and half done, in the
midst of families coming and
saying, I'm going to find somewhere else to worship.
>> Speaker E (34:05):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:06):
In the midst of leading the corps, who stuck
with the whole vision, and I thank God for
them. And in the midst of coming on the
other side of that, I did suffer
with. How do I solve this problem?
Leaders solve.
>> Speaker E (34:22):
Yes. Yep.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:24):
They solve problems. How do I solve
this? What came to me,
the best way to solve this,
Take myself out of the equation.
>> Speaker E (34:37):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:38):
Suicide.
>> Speaker E (34:38):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:40):
Let the key man, uh,
insurance.
>> Speaker E (34:44):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:44):
For everything. Church
moves on. I'm not worried. I'm in
glory.
>> Speaker E (34:50):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (34:51):
Um, and that's what I
had said to myself in the book.
I talk about this, uh, I'd
encourage people to get it to, to see.
So here I am. I am gone
to preach for, uh, a
seminary buddy whose ministry who's
(35:12):
absolutely exploded.
Mega situation. Truly a mega
situation. Satellite churches
everywhere. And he finally gives
me a nod. He thinks about his old buddy,
finally gives me a shot, like, now you finally remember
(35:33):
me. Don't you remember we went through seminary together, both of us. We were
pretty poor, uh, pretty pathetic kind of
guys. And now. So it gives me an
opportunity to come and minister. I get there.
I'm totally, um,
preoccupied with the moment. I'm
overwhelmed with my situation and my context.
(35:54):
And, uh, I have been trying to debate
back and forward with the
lenders who are threatening to come and
give me and say, take the keys and all of that.
>> Speaker E (36:05):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (36:06):
And I'm thinking,
this is the best way out.
This is what else?
And then my executive
coach calls me, not
knowing at all. I have been trying to call
him because we're trying to put together a strategy,
(36:28):
calls me back. He says
something to me I will never ever
forget. He says,
jeff,
if you do this,
you will not know how God is
going to bring you out.
(36:56):
I just think about that.
I ain't gone. I moved back from
the window.
Um,
it had to be God.
Had to be God. I
stepped back.
(37:19):
I'm in tears. I get
it together. I minister that night,
my friend, my seminary buddy, he never knows
what is, what's going on.
Uh,
and that moment. And in that
moment, I quit. And
(37:40):
I say this in my book, I quit marching
to the drum beat of that
ideation. But m to the fact
that. And he encouraged
me because a coach does not do
therapy. So he encouraged me to
get with my therapist. We began
(38:01):
to talk about that
superhero.
But you came back. Yeah,
Jesus, they already pull
lots for his robe.
>> Speaker E (38:16):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (38:16):
You don't have to die for this. He already dies.
>> Speaker E (38:20):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (38:23):
Yeah. That was one of the
most pivotal moments in
my ministry.
>> Speaker E (38:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (38:32):
Well, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for you sharing
that both in your book and, you know, here on
this, this podcast.
I just, you know, I'm struck by
the importance, just like you said, of sharing these things.
I, uh, just had to do a training, you know, in my chaplaincy role
for, you know, suicide ideation. And I think it's so
(38:53):
hard. We want to kind of be
around the bush and not have these direct
conversations. But I'm just reminded of even in my
training about how asking direct questions, you know,
to people and how are you feeling? Like, are you thinking
about harming yourself? Like, these kind of conversations, they do matter,
and they do have an impact.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (39:13):
They do. And it's the same, or probably.
Um, I'm sure I had a similar training when I was a chaplain.
>> Speaker E (39:19):
Right, right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (39:20):
And we do step away. We do shy away from
asking that because we don't want to project.
We don't want to seem like, oh, are you crazy?
We don't want to do all of those things. Excuse
me. Uh, and those are hard conversations. And in
fact, the person on the other end,
that's exactly what they need to hear.
>> Speaker E (39:39):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (39:43):
Well, I really, again, I really appreciate your sharing
that. Um, I suppose before.
One last question here before we take a break, I think, again,
a simple quote. You said that
that resonated me here from the book. You know, you said, plant the
church first. Again, you
ended the book, or near the end of the book with that. It
(40:03):
sounds simple, but I can see so much beneath the surface.
Anything you want to say to that end?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (40:09):
Yeah, you know, we, um, did something
that I do not encourage church
planters to do, and I'm in the
midst of planting some more churches.
And we were building and planting
and building the people at the same time.
I would never do that again. I would
(40:32):
plant the church as in grow the
people before I try to build a building.
>> Speaker E (40:37):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (40:39):
Because, um, doing both
not recommended, unless you enjoy pain.
Um, um, because it's
tough. And that's what I was saying then.
And I would. I plan on doing that approach
going forward as we plant some other churches from
our mother church.
>> Speaker E (41:00):
Yeah.
>> Loren (41:01):
Good stuff. Well, the book is Leading through
storms, successfully navigating
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
I hope, listeners, you got a sense of just how
powerful, uh, the book is. And, um, Bishop
Dudley's testimony and words here are in the
book. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
(41:25):
Okay. We're back with Bishop, uh, Jeffrey Dudley,
Sr. I should add the senior, because I am actually
myself a junior, and, uh, my father
is a pastor, too. These closing questions, you're
welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
to. But if you're a pope for a day,
what might you want to do with that day?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (41:46):
If I was Pope for the day,
I would call together all of the world
leaders, faith leaders, and
I would try to solve the
problem in Gaza.
>> Speaker E (42:00):
M. Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (42:02):
The starvation that is happening. And I
would try to get the political leaders
to see humanity and not political
power.
>> Speaker E (42:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (42:15):
You know,
I was struck by that this morning and had been
thinking, praying,
even on my limited impact,
how can I move the needle towards
humanity
in that regard? My goodness,
(42:36):
uh, awful.
Do you have a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (42:46):
2 I would want to bring back
to life and meet Bonhoeffer and
Martin Luther King Jr. I love to sit down and talk with
them. Then I'd love for them to lead
us in this very divisive
moment that we find ourselves in right now.
Bonhoeffer, because he uh,
was very, ah, insightful
(43:09):
in seeing, uh, the waywardness of,
um, Christians in that moment
and their parochialism,
um, and being used by the government
to advance, ah, political agenda and not,
uh, kingdom agenda and Martin
Luther King, uh, in that,
(43:31):
uh, very similar age, uh,
and causing uh, the country
to live up to its ideals.
>> Speaker E (43:40):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (43:42):
Well, I suppose another potentially heavy question here.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (43:50):
I think, kids, history will see us
as revisiting and reliving,
uh, Reconstruction.
We are in now a neo real
Reconstruction moment.
>> Loren (44:03):
Interesting.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (44:04):
After the Civil War,
um, there was great,
um, acceleration
of former
enslaved people, African
Americans. Um, quickly
after that, uh, we went into
Jim Crow, which was a white lash
(44:25):
against the moving
forward of African Americans.
And for that time, the late
1800s to the early 1900s.
From that time to, uh, we were into
um, um, we were
in uh, the Jim Crow era
(44:46):
and uh, the segregation era all the way
up to the 40s and the 50s,
so about 40 years. That's four decades.
Uh, we move now into now
a post Obama era.
I call it a neo Reconstruction
era. And I think, uh, history,
(45:08):
when it looks back in this moment, we'll see we
are now again revisiting those things
because the same types of
advances with laws are
happening, um, equal to
that then. And so I think when we
look at uh, peace, we will see
(45:28):
that and the shrinking of
what um, is the church doing.
>> Speaker E (45:34):
Hmm.
>> Loren (45:34):
I'm struck by that. I don't think I've heard it in that
phrasing or that that context. And I think
that makes a lot, a lot of sense. If I'm, if I'm
remembering history correctly, this idea that like a lot
of these, like um, like the monuments. Right.
That became a source of
attention for so many over the last few years. Like some of
these, like the Robert E. Lee memorials for instance, were
(45:57):
built. Right, right in that post
Reconstruction era. Am I Correct on that.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:03):
Yeah. The 40s and the 50s as a
response to pushback.
Nothing to do with culture.
>> Speaker E (46:11):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:12):
Uh, had nothing to do with
um, uh, the southern culture.
Nothing. Zero,
nada.
>> Speaker E (46:21):
Wow.
>> Loren (46:22):
I, I again, you know, the, the quote
that's been resonating with me of late is the idea that history
may not repeat itself but sure does rhyme.
So it's a fresh like that. I don't
remember who said that, but that your, your story
sure is just another fresh reminder of that, that
being true in many ways.
(46:44):
Well, how about something more hopeful? What do you hope for the future
of Christianity?
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (46:48):
I hope that we begin to be
more like Jesus and less like religion.
That here is Jesus,
um, the person.
And my hope is, is that
we then go hard
after him and
(47:11):
not after
the religiosity of being
a Christian. We have now
a movement if you will.
Um,
um, the Christian nationalism
is really a,
(47:33):
it is a um, movement
that somehow another people see that this is
Jesus. I'm struck by
that.
>> Speaker E (47:45):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:46):
Christianity is about other.
>> Speaker E (47:49):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:51):
And whenever you make other
an enemy.
>> Speaker E (47:55):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:55):
That's not Christianity.
>> Speaker E (47:57):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (47:59):
And so, but I believe. I
believe and you say
hopeful and I agree. The hope
is this,
this hope we have in Jesus.
>> Loren (48:16):
Now you're preaching here.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Absolutely.
>> Speaker E (48:21):
Yeah.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:22):
In my tradition we say hold your ear and. Yeah.
Because this hope we have in Jesus.
>> Speaker E (48:29):
Mhm.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:30):
Is there another hope? What is hope? Paul
said, what is hope if hope is not in
hope?
>> Speaker E (48:37):
Right.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:38):
So I have that hope. I have that
hope and I'm going to preach Jesus.
>> Speaker E (48:44):
Amen.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (48:47):
Yeah. And I believe that.
>> Loren (48:50):
Well, uh, what a blessing,
uh, and pleasure this conversation has been.
I'm so thankful for uh, your perspectives
and that you shared this with me and with our audience.
Share, if you would, how people can connect with you, get the
book, all that stuff.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (49:06):
Well, what they can do, I would love for them to get
the book. It's on uh, Amazon. It's
um, at uh, Barnes and Noble or
they can go to University Varsity Press. Get it?
Well, you can just go, uh, come on my website.
The uh, church's website, uh, of course is
www uh.this is my new
(49:27):
life.com. this is my new
life.com. that's not hard to remember. This is
my new life dot com. That's our church website.
And you can find me on all
platforms, all social media platforms. And
that is Bishop Dudley PhD at
Bishop Dudley PhD on all of those. And
(49:48):
you can check uh, it out. We're right here in
the uh, on the east side of the Mississippi
river, the St. Louis metropolitan area
bedroom community, O', Fallon, Illinois.
Um, at 689 Scott Troy Road.
And we'd love for you to come by or check us out,
uh, online. Um, again, uh,
(50:08):
that's at New. At New
Life. Um, no, wait
a minute, let me get it right, because
we've changed it @
New Life TV. That's it.
>> Speaker E (50:21):
Sure.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (50:22):
Yeah, that's it. Get your. There. Uh, you know,
the. Up. We could do stuff.
>> Loren (50:27):
Your marketing person would. Would, uh, would
be gritting their teeth, I suppose. Right.
Well, again, thank you so much for the. The conversation. I appreciate
your perspectives. Uh, we always lead folks with
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr. (50:43):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (50:52):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at Future Dash
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(51:13):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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