May 13, 2025 • 53 mins
What if burnout isn’t the end of your calling—but an invitation to reimagine it? In this episode, Loren talks with Dr. Arianna Molloy, author of Healthy Calling: From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work, about how our deepest exhaustion can reveal what matters most. Drawing from her own journey and years of research, Arianna offers insight for leaders, pastors, and anyone navigating seasons of vocational confusion, overwork, or transition. together, they explore how calling can be both sacred and slippery, why shame is often tied to burnout, and how to reclaim your purpose without clinging to a title.
This episode includes:
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The difference between a healthy calling and toxic burnout
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Why our job titles aren’t our true identity
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What to do when you feel vocationally lost
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How rest and reflection help realign our sense of purpose
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Tools for reframing shame and rediscovering joy in your work
Arianna Molloy (PhD, University of Denver) is associate professor of organizational communication at Biola University. Her research focuses on meaningful work, work as a calling, and the connection between humility and burnout in the workplace. She is an award-winning scholar and educator who has published in the International Journal of Business Communication, Communication Studies, and Christianity Today. Arianna is also a consultant for organizations, business professionals, and ministries. Arianna and her husband, Allen, have one son and enjoy running half marathons, traveling the world, and drinking good coffee.
Mentioned Resources:
📱 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arianna-molloy-ph-d-168969246/
🌐 Arianna's website: ariannamolloy.com.
🎧 Past episode: Pastoral Health Roundtable Episode
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Ariana Malloy (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Ariana
Malloy to the podcast. Ariana
is Associate professor of Organizational
Communication at, uh, Biola University.
Her research focuses on meaningful work,
work as a calling, and the connection
(01:05):
between humility and burnout in the
workplace. She is an award winning
scholar and educator who has published in
the International Journal of Business Communication,
Communication Studies and
Christianity Today.
Ariana is also a consultant for
organizations, business professionals
(01:27):
and ministries. Ariana and her
husband Alan, have own son and enjoy
running half marathons, traveling the world
and drinking good coffee. A
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with
(01:47):
a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the
(02:08):
future of the church.
>> Loren (02:18):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond
Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined today
by Dr. Ariana Malloy. Hello
and thanks for being here.
>> Ariana Malloy (02:29):
Hello. So glad to be here.
>> Loren (02:30):
Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Let's begin with this. Share just a little bit about your
faith background, what that looked like in the past for you, what that
looks like today.
>> Ariana Malloy (02:42):
Yeah, uh, I have a very kind of
boring story. In some ways, I've loved Jesus since I can
remember. I grew up in a home where two parents
really modeled what love looked like, what
Christ's love looked like in an everyday way. And I
know that that is sometimes very rare. And they didn't come from those
kinds of homes, so they made an intentional choice to do some things
(03:02):
differently. But I have loved Jesus since I can
remember. Um, I think
that there have probably been times in my life where I
would have made different choices in hindsight.
But generally speaking, I have known him as my savior and
my shepherd, my best friend.
Um, in college I read a
couple of books and I was really Involved in
(03:24):
serving in the junior high, in my church and the college ministry
in college, I felt like my prayer life kind of
exploded. I've always loved to pray, but
in that particular season I really
felt invited into a deeper level of
intimacy with the Lord in that regard. So that is,
that's my story.
>> Loren (03:44):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Has prayer remained a central
kind of spiritual practice, spiritual discipline for you? Are there any others
that you've really, uh, grown fond of perhaps?
>> Ariana Malloy (03:52):
Yeah, I think for me, because,
because God is, is a person, because I
have relationship with Him. To me prayer is, is
talking with him, it's coming to him and engaging with
Him. And so, um, it's not, it's
not meant, um, to be ritualistic in my heart and
mind. Although certain rituals do help sometimes.
(04:13):
So, um, you know, one of my favorite books is Sacred
Pathways. And in that book it talks about the seven
different. I think it's seven, actually it might be nine. Nine different
ways that people can feel close to God. Because we're all different.
You know, it's similar to any kind of relationship. We all have different,
essentially love languages and experiences. And the same is
true in our relationship with God. And so my husband and I
read that, uh, about three years into our marriage and it was
(04:35):
really illuminating to, to discern
what lights us up inside each of us. And for me it
is kind of a traditional sense of like. I love reading
scripture in the morning when I have the time. I have a kid now, so it's a little
bit harder. But um, I love just diving into
scripture. I love reading books that sort of
illuminate things about scripture. I love praying.
(04:56):
For me, I feel the most at home with the Lord when I'm in
nature. So finding my, my space in that
is really important. For the last, I don't
know, five years, I've gone for a walk by the beach. We live close
enough to the beach on Friday mornings. Every Friday
I go for a 30 minute walk by the beach and just quiet my
heart and reorient. And for me, when I see
nature, I just feel closer to the Lord.
(05:19):
Whereas my husband, he's more of someone who loves to have
intellectual conversations. I love those too, but they
don't make me necessarily feel closer to God or
he loves to serve again. I love to serve, but it doesn't
necessarily make me feel closer to God. So I think,
um, yeah, figuring out. And again, I think that
can also change depending on the seasons of our lives.
>> Loren (05:39):
Mhm.
Okay, we gotta ask, it's Friday then. Did you get Your walk in.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:44):
I'm going after this actually.
>> Loren (05:45):
Okay, good. I don't want to get in the way of that then. No,
no, I don't wanna get in the way of that.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:49):
Kind of a sacred space for me. So I try to really
protect that when I can.
>> Loren (05:53):
Yeah. And also, like, I am super jealous that you're
gonna get to walk on the beach, but it is what it is.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:59):
I know Colorado
has mountains. There's nothing like the, you know, Rocky Mountains.
But also California has beaches and that's also pretty
great.
>> Loren (06:08):
Yeah. Ariana is a,
what was a part time resident, sometime resident
of, uh, of the Denver Metro. Going
to DU for your PhD. So you got to
enjoy a little bit of it. Well,
uh, even though your story is short in some ways, I'm,
I'm grateful to hear it and also grateful because it gives us
plenty of time to talk about your book.
(06:30):
So Ariana is the author of Healthy Calling
From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work.
And I gotta say, I was really
impressed by this in many ways in the book, but let's
begin. Just kind of the standard boilerplate question, like
what inspired the book? Why did you want to write it?
>> Ariana Malloy (06:49):
Yeah, so in my master's, actually I got my master's
at the University of Portland in Oregon. And in that
time I was studying, um, how faith based
organizations manage their business
values with their faith values. And so that was
interesting to me. And as I was interviewing folks who
were part of organizations that did that, I noticed they
(07:09):
kept using the word calling, which just kind of was in my brain
a little bit. Um, then I went on to get my PhD and
I started studying literature on meaningful work.
So in secular spaces,
that terminology, meaningful work points towards
purposeful work, work that feels purposeful and
impacting. And I remember reading a 2008
article where in this article about meaningful work,
(07:32):
they said more studies should be done about how people also approach work
as a calling. And it was like, yes, I need to study
this. And so, uh, I studied how
people from different professional domains experienced work
as a calling. And so that would have been, you know, an nf. I interviewed
an NFL coach, lawyers, financial advisors, stay
at home parents, artists, musicians,
(07:52):
um, teachers, and, you know,
psychologists. And so I found several things
that marked the way they experienced work as a
calling. By the way, not everyone I interviewed was a Christian.
So people who aren't Christians still have this identified
connection for purpose, which I think is God
given, even if they don't recognize it. Um, so
(08:13):
that's a really cool way to have a conversation. Too. Like, if someone is not a Christian and
they feel called, you can say, well, what's calling you? Can you tell me more about
that? Um, so, yeah, so I studied that
now in my dissertation. You know, it's like a good dissertation is a done
dissertation. So I didn't have time to, like, fully investigate everything.
Um, I studied how people experienced work as a calling.
I also studied the impact of culture and
(08:34):
community on that sense of calling. So when we
have support from, um, our family or
from our workplaces, and when we don't, how does that
impact our ability to live that out?
I also noticed a lot of data
showing up about the dark side of calling.
And initially, it was just about like, you know, burnout and
(08:55):
boundaries and sacrifice. Several years
later, when I was given a research fellowship as a
professor, I returned to some of that literature and through
the lens of looking at humility, this
was part of the fellowship process as we had to study
humility. And as it turns out, all the people
who experienced a healthy sense of calling, who did
not get sucked into the dark side of burnout,
(09:18):
actually lived out this sense of humility in their
calling. So this sort of exploded my research again, and I
started looking at the dark side in a deeper way. I
will say, Loren, that in the midst of all of that, I experienced my
own sense of burnout. I didn't know I would feel called to be a
professor. I did. The Lord stood. Super called me to
that. Um, but three years into it, I
(09:39):
was burnt out to the point where I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm
experiencing everything I researched in my own life.
This is not good. And so I guess the
reason what initially inspired this
book was because I had been in that place of burnout.
I knew what it felt like, and I knew how to get out of
it. And I want anyone who's experienced
(09:59):
that, who's about to experience that, who's experienced it for
so long that they don't know what other parts of life look like
anymore. I don't want them to be trapped by that. And
there are specific practices that help you get out of it.
>> Loren (10:11):
Yeah, this is really good.
I'm intrigued that it's interesting, like you said, that
you interviewed folks outside of
church spaces and also outside of Christianity per se,
who identified their work as calling. I'm remembering many years
ago when I was pursuing
seminary, and I would talk about
my wanting to go to seminary as a calling. And I m
(10:32):
remember talking to a friend who was going to medical
school, and she also kind of used
similar Language to describe her,
her journey to want to become a doctor. So it's very interesting that you say
that.
>> Ariana Malloy (10:45):
Absolutely. In fact, I was driving down the 55 in
California and there's, you know, billboards everywhere. And there was a billboard
for a hospital, uh, that said, you, healing is
our calling. And that, you know, that was there,
um, I was watching a commercial, um, you know, when
commercials actually happen now on streaming services. And there was
a commercial for a truck company, I think it was Dodge Ram. And,
(11:05):
and they said, our calling is to build you good, uh, trucks.
>> Loren (11:08):
Interesting.
>> Ariana Malloy (11:08):
And so there's this really interesting. I mean, I just think that's so
fascinating that we all can identify
with this, this feeling of
being compelled by something that is the
fingerprint of God on, on us and in
us. We were made to be in
relationship with him. We were given this thirst
to connect with him from the very beginning.
>> Loren (11:31):
Well, this is great. I want to talk about, just
kind of talk through some topics in the book.
So let's begin. You've kind of
hinted at them already, some of the positives and
negatives of a work calling.
>> Ariana Malloy (11:47):
Yeah. So I mean, what's really fantastic is
that there's sort of three different ways people can approach work. And
they're not contained, so they can overlap. And you
can experience, sometimes you can experience all three in one day, depending on what's
happening in your job. But the three ways that people experience
work is just a job. That's the first one
where you go to your job because you need to pay the bills, which is
(12:07):
no small thing. That's a very real thing. You, you
took this job because you need to pay the bills. You, you clock
in, you clock out. You might not like it, you might
not love it. There's not necessarily a promise of
upward trajectory. Like there's not necessarily like a 15 year plan
in your mind. You're going to work to live for the weekends.
Very real. The second type of approach
(12:27):
to work is a career. And in this, uh,
mentality, there are entrepreneurs, there are people
who really like what they' they think about it.
They use their skill set, they have that 15 year plan.
And to them success looks like, oh, I got to move to a
bigger office. I got a job title change, I
get to take my family on vacation, I get to buy a new
car. You know, certain, uh, I made, I
(12:50):
helped make a playground in this urban area for kids.
So very explicit sense of reward.
Again, really great experience. Then the third one is a
calling. And in our approach to work as a
calling, It's a sense of
deep joy and satisfaction where
we experience four things happening. The four things that
(13:11):
happen are that it's meaningful. So that's
it's. And that could be the same as a career. It's meaningful.
It's more than just functional. You derive meaning from
it. I interviewed a woman who was a makeup artist and
she did makeup for people. And she said, you know, I get to help
people feel beautiful. It was meaningful
to her. I've interviewed people who were the custodians at
(13:31):
a hospital, and many people unfortunately
deem some work as not real work. And that's really
unfortunate.
>> Loren (13:37):
Right?
>> Ariana Malloy (13:37):
That's actually, in my opinion, unacceptable. Um, it might not
be their ideal type of work, but it could be someone else's. And I remember
interviewing a custodian at a hospital who felt
it was their job to make that hospital room
clean and welcoming for the next person who's
experienced tragedy.
>> Loren (13:53):
Wow.
>> Ariana Malloy (13:54):
And so that, that's dignifying. So, so
meaningful. So the second thing is that you feel a sense of
call, like you can identify, like, oh, I
feel compelled to do this. There's something
some people who are not Christians talk about the universe. I
interviewed a musician who felt, literally felt like his guitar
was calling him to be a musician.
(14:14):
We as Christians know that that is God. The Bible says, my
sheep hear my voice. You know, we respond to the shepherd's
voice. So the first thing is meaningful. The second thing is calling.
The third thing is also really important. It is the
combination. And this is essential, the combination
of skill and passion.
So many of us, and especially right after you graduate
(14:34):
from college, it feels so good to
do a job you're good at. It's very deeply satisfying.
But that is a short term satisfaction. After
about three months, only doing
it because you're good at it becomes a little boring.
There's also this need to feel passionate about
it, to sense a connection to something that you
(14:55):
care personally and deeply about. Now, the flip side's also
true. You can feel so passionate about something, but if you're not
good at it, that can be very demotivating at times.
And I remember interviewing, um, a CEO of a company
who said, passion, uh, alone is not enough.
Passion makes you a great fan. Passion
and skill set makes you a great employee. You can think about
it like, if someone did feel called to be a surgeon,
(15:18):
it's great that they're passionate about it, but you wouldn't want them to walk into the
surgery room without training. This is where apprenticeship and
growth and places like college or
Internships and preparatory work is really important.
The fourth thing about that sense of
calling. So we've got that just a job, we've got a career that
we've got calling. The fourth thing in calling after
meaningful work, a sense of a caller passion and
(15:40):
skillset. The fourth thing this is really, really important is that
it makes a positive impact on others. It is what
social psychologists and social scientists call
pro social behavior. Pro social behavior means
that it's not just a hobby. Doesn't just make you glad,
doesn't just impact you personally, it impacts others.
And this, Loren, is where we can especially get into
(16:01):
the dark side of calling is that connection to impacting
others.
>> Loren (16:05):
Yeah, so I think I, uh, was looking at my phone here. I keep highlights
on my phone. So there's one. There's a couple highlights
that stood out to me. I just want to read them since we're talking about
this one. You. Early on, you
say saying yes to good things is often more seductive than
saying yes to obviously bad
ones. Talk more about that.
>> Ariana Malloy (16:26):
Yeah, so. And you, you asked me, you know, um, talking about
the good and the dark. So of all those categories of people who
approach work, if you feel called, you're actually the most
satisfied in your job. You're the most motivated. You're able
to withstand like, organizational change,
societal shifts. You are the person people want in the
room, you're the yes person. And that's great. But
(16:46):
also research shows you're the most prone to
burnout. M. More than any other type of person,
one might say, well, why is that? And it's because
you see the need, you see the
deep ache, and you know, you can feel
it. And so it's really hard to
know, is it okay to say no sometimes?
(17:07):
If I'm saying no, am I letting down God, am I letting
down my community? Like, am I allowed to
have boundaries? And so
it's really hard. I think often
in certain seasons of life, you're just working hard to have opportunities.
I don't know if you've been in that situation. I think for me in grad school, it was like, anytime I
had an opportunity, I was like, fighting for it. But then you get
(17:27):
to a point in life where your
opportunities are actually all good.
And it's really, really hard to know how to say no to some of
those.
>> Loren (17:37):
Yeah, let's talk about,
um, I'm trying to find the quote here. Oh, let's talk about
the danger of confusing a calling with the
title. I'm trying to find the quote here.
Oh, uh, page 24. Too often we confuse a calling
with a particular title when we should see it as a combination
of skill sets and passions that can be applied to
(17:58):
a number of different occupations. In
this way, our specific calling is always tied to and should
rest under our general calling. So I want to have you
respond to that quote, and I also want to kind of, uh,
dial this in too, to think about. Like this podcast
is a podcast geared at pastors and church leaders thinking about
calling within a specific
faith context, church context, and how
(18:22):
that confusion can happen
even amongst churches, uh, jobs,
church leaders, so to speak.
>> Ariana Malloy (18:30):
Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because when we're talking about
calling, my specific focus of calling is
the, the secondary type. So as Christians,
we are all called. We're called to love
God and love others in everything we do. We do it
as if we're doing it for the Lord. So that is a general
calling that we all have in every sphere of our life.
We should be looking and saying, how am I worshiping the Lord in
(18:53):
this space? God wastes nothing.
And so every part of our life is an opportunity to
worship Him. And Scripture is very clear about
this. How we do that is how we love other people.
>> Loren (19:04):
Mhm.
>> Ariana Malloy (19:05):
It's not separate. It's the same part of
the, of the primary calling. If we're not
loving others, well, we're not actually achieving our calling with
God. And so that's a primary calling.
But God is not just the master of the
universe, the grand king, he is also the
intimate creator. And we need to recognize that he's made
each of us with particular skill sets and
(19:27):
passions. Those are intentional. You know, I, uh, when I talk to
college students and they're trying to figure out if they
should like, pay attention to this interest that they have, I try to
remind them, hey, not everyone has this interest.
Part of the things that drive you that you think about when you're driving your car
or brushing your teeth or you know, randomly doing
something where your mind is going, you want to think
about, is this something that's from the Lord and what am I? What
(19:50):
should I do with that? So I think
as we're talking about calling, and especially
like within the church contexts, we are all called
to love God and love others. But we also need to take
the courage and the risk and the vulnerability
to explore how we
specifically have been designed and um, how we
(20:11):
can develop those skill sets and passions so that when we
do those things, we feel like we're worshiping God. And that could be paid
work Unpaid work, relationships,
service. So work is only one
way in which a secondary calling can be lived out.
It's not the only way. There are a lot of people who just are doing
their job and that is great. And I, in um, fact both of
(20:31):
my parents chose because they felt called to
be good spouses and good parents. They
chose work that they liked, they didn't love
because they really wanted to make sure their home life was
secure. And I think that's the right way to do it. Some of us
have the opportunity to explore paid work in that way,
way as well.
>> Loren (20:50):
So let's, let's dive into this a little bit more because I think there
can be this temptation and maybe I'm just speaking for myself,
having felt this temptation of pursuing a
title when it doesn't
necessarily align with your calling.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:04):
Yeah. So the reality is that
people right now, and we're talking about the tool belt generation, is the
newest generation coming out of college or coming out of high school?
Um, okay.
>> Loren (21:14):
Tool belt generation.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:16):
Yeah.
>> Loren (21:16):
I haven't heard that before.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:18):
Yeah. So people want to acquire a lot of
skill. And I still believe that that comes through going
to college because we can learn a lot about ourselves
by being in class, being in the co curricular part
of college life, being a little bit on our own, but
still approaching life like an apprenticeship job. But college is not for
everyone. You might choose a trade school or immediately
(21:38):
begin apprenticing with somebody,
but the reality is people are changing
jobs between 18 and
42 on average, 10 times.
>> Loren (21:49):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:50):
So if we get too attracted to
a job title or a major or
something that makes us feel super, super secure,
we could potentially be missing out on what's actually
happening. Because our calling is less about a job title
and it's more about the skill sets and the passions
and the community we seek to serve. And there's a
(22:12):
variety of ways to, to do that. So I do feel
called to be a professor. But if I were to break that down,
really, Loren, what I feel called to do is I love to
mentor. Like mentorship is to me one of the
most important things. I also love to collaboratively
learn. I love to learn together and talk through
things and explore the why questions. I love to
(22:32):
speak interpersonally, one on one with people, but also
in large groups. And that can happen as
a professor, but that could also happen in other places too.
And if I'm not careful, if I hold that professor job
too tightly, it becomes one of the dark sides
of calling that we talk about, which is an
idol. It becomes an idol rather than the way in which
(22:53):
I can experience my calling.
>> Loren (22:54):
Okay, I really want to hone in on this because this is so important.
I think for me personally, for my
context that I'm hoping to speak to. I'm thinking of a few
different things. So I'm going to kind of just talk here and
hopefully this makes sense. I'm thinking of a book.
I'll have to recommend the title another way. It's been out
for a few years and I had the authors on some time ago
(23:15):
and they talked about, uh, they use
the words like a telos, like an end,
a purpose. So I think there's different language,
similar ethos here. I'm also remembering.
Do you remember this movie a couple years ago?
It was like the Sound of Music or the Noise?
It's about this drummer who lost his hearing.
>> Ariana Malloy (23:36):
No, that sounds really fascinating.
>> Loren (23:38):
Yeah, I can't even remember what it was on, but it was really
meaningful to me because I was going through a kind of a career
transition where I was losing a title. Right. And I
really had to think about like, um,
this guy kind of lost.
He lost his hearing and he was playing in a band. Lost his hearing and
couldn't obviously play in a band anymore.
(23:58):
The movie kind of talks about his journey of like trying to
figure out what his purposes, his calling is. And
it seemed like his, his title was at one point
like, he's a drummer in a band. And it seemed like
he, through the journey of the movie figured out like that his,
his calling or purpose, whatever, was as
someone to, I don't know,
(24:18):
teacher or do music. He kind of went to a deaf school and
it seemed like the, the kind of. The tease was at
the m. End of the movie was like, he's gonna like, teach
these, you know, deaf kids to kind of
learn music, if I'm remembering correctly. But I'm
thinking about this and again, I'm being long winded. So forgive me, but I'm
thinking about this so often in. I
(24:39):
mean, I see it myself in my own, uh, context.
I think for pastors and church leaders there can be such
a
grip on that title that A, like,
sometimes pastors stay too long, uh, when they need
to retire or move on to a different
context. B, like when you stop having that title of
(25:00):
pastor speaking personally, things are really,
uh, confusing. Uh, and then three, it's
like, as we think about
American church, broadly speaking, the, the kind of
professional pastor model is largely going away
in many cases as folks think about bivocationality
and co. Vocationality, whatever. So I've given you a lot
(25:21):
there. Uh, but strike, respond, uh, to what strikes
you there.
>> Ariana Malloy (25:25):
Yeah, I
love certainty. Um, I am a J on
the, um, Myers Briggs, um, in the Enneagram, I am a
6. I'm a healthy 6 usually. But I like. I like a sense of
safety. Um, I am a type A, although I don't think
I'm super stringent. But I love lists, you know, and I love
that security and man job titles or choosing
(25:46):
your major or, um, a season
in life, like, oh, I'm a mom of a this
age kid. Those are all fine.
But ultimately, if we move
from those things being an expression of who
we are to the definition of who we are,
we get into trouble M. When we move from them being
(26:07):
an expression of who we are. Hey, by doing these things,
I get to express who God is to me and I get to
love others. When we move from that which is healthy to
this is who I am. And I don't know who
I am outside of that. Red alarms,
the fire alarm. Like, uh, you know, our smoke detector goes
off very easily in our. In our home. Your smoke
(26:28):
detector should be going off if your job
is how you know yourself is the only
way.
>> Loren (26:34):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (26:35):
And it's incredibly tempting to do that. I think,
particularly, again, it's incredibly tempting to do that when you
feel called because you. You're
experiencing this sweet spot, you know, Certainly not every day and not
with every task. But generally speaking, the work you're
doing makes you feel connected to God. And so when all of
a sudden that's been taken from you or
(26:55):
you no longer feel that because you're super burnt
out, it's extremely disorienting. So I
think what I would say is this goes back to
making sure that we're approaching calling
in a healthy way. And what the really important
thing about that is, rather than thinking about healthy
calling as a category, I'm in it or I'm out of it.
(27:16):
We need to think of it like a spectrum. Where am I today?
I mean, in writing this book, someone asked me, did you write this book for
yourself? I didn't because I've already experienced it.
I wrote it for you. I wrote it
because my passion is mentorship. When I was writing this
book, I was writing it imagining that I'm sitting across
from a coffee table with my favorite white chocolate mocha in
(27:38):
a beautiful mug, cozy with a fireplace nearby,
looking at you, the reader, the listener, and
we're talking together. I did that because,
um, it's really, really hard. It's really hard when you've
experienced that. I think there's a lot of things you can
do. And I'm maybe going on a tangent myself.
>> Loren (27:55):
No, go ahead.
>> Ariana Malloy (27:56):
But, um, there's a really fantastic
grid called job crafting
that you can do that helps you
reset the current job you're doing. If it's not feeling
like a calling. Job crafting, um,
and that's, uh, thinking about the tasks that you're doing.
Task crafting, relational crafting, thinking about
relationships that you're experiencing, and cognitive crafting, just
(28:18):
your mental approach to it.
And we can chat about that if you'd like, but there are things you can
do. But ultimately, let's go back to this. Calling
is about relationship with the caller.
That's what it's about. It's relationship
with the caller. It's relationship with ourselves. That's called
intrapersonal communication. I'm a communication
professor. It's intra how we talk about work, how we talk about
(28:41):
work with ourselves. So, for example, uh, when I
went back from maternity leave after I had my son,
I realized I was feeling so pulled in so many directions,
and I was resentful of it. And so every time I left for
work, my son would say, mommy, don't go. And I would
say, I have to go, buddy. I have to go to work. And I was driving
to work, and I thought, you know what? Me telling
(29:01):
myself that over and over makes me believe that.
But guess what I get to do? I get to go to work.
And so I just made that shift. And so the following day,
I said, oh, buddy, I get to go to work. You know what I get to do today?
I get to love on students, and I get to tell them about
Jesus and communication. And I'm so.
And you get to go to work. You get to go to kindergarten. It's so
(29:22):
exciting. You get to learn, and I'll see you afterwards.
And so reframing that to ourselves is really important.
So relationship with the caller, relationship with ourselves. And
it's also about relationship with the community. And
when we think about that, it's also. It's our work community, and
it's also our personal community. Again with
a healthy calling. Our families.
(29:43):
That's, uh, a. That is part of our primary calling, in my opinion.
And so whatever you see as your family, if you're single, if you're
married, with kids, without kids, whoever you deem as your family, they
better be doing really well. If they're not doing well,
your work is secondary.
>> Loren (29:56):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (29:57):
The problem is people go to their work because it's controllable.
When personal life feels uncontrollable, when bad things are
happening, when kids aren't listening, when conflict with spouses are happening,
they go to work because they can control it again. That takes us
to the other type of dark side, which is workaholism.
>> Loren (30:14):
Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I, uh, feel like I should talk to you
offline about the job crafting grid, but anytime, I would love it.
Uh, I want to talk more about shame and burnout. And I
think if I'm understanding correctly, they're kind of
two different sides, perhaps of the same coin.
I want to read a couple quotes here.
You write, when calling burnout occurs, resulting, uh, feelings
(30:36):
of shame can distort our relationship with a caller,
convincing us we are wasting, destroying or even violating the
skills, passions and opportunities our
caller has given to us. You, uh, also
write about deep shame being consuming, evident in a chronic sense
of unrelenting worthlessness, self doubt,
so on and so forth. I'm curious,
(30:56):
I guess, do you think
is, does shame always come from burnout?
Can they form independently? That's what I, I guess that's my first
question.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:07):
Yeah, good question. So part of understanding the
difference between regular burnout. There's been plenty of books and
research on regular burnout, which is terrible.
>> Loren (31:14):
Right, right.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:15):
You know, people, regular burnout involves very serious things.
Psychological paralysis, cynicism,
apathy, deep exhaustion. People tend to get
sick more often. Um, disconnection from
relationships, just no energy at all. A
lack of meaning. That's terrible.
But burnout from a calling has a unique
fingerprint. It is not just burnout,
(31:37):
it is toxic burnout. And what takes it to
that toxicity is that chronic or
deep shame? Because
it's not just I don't like what I'm doing, which
is terrible.
>> Loren (31:49):
Mhm.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:49):
It's. I don't know who I am anymore.
>> Loren (31:52):
Yes.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:52):
Which is completely disorienting. And the shame
from that comes because of that relational connection
with the caller and the community and even yourself.
The shame happens because it's not just that it's
impacting you, it feels like it's impacting
your relationship with God and the people that
you felt like you're supposed to impact, uh, whether it's in your
(32:13):
professional or personal life. So that shame is
relational and spiritual and it
is paralyzing. So they're
not exactly the same. But that deep shame
is part of the core problem with
toxic burnout and it can hold people
captive.
>> Loren (32:31):
Okay, so I want to, I want to make sure I heard this. So it's. I don't like what
I'm doing and I don't know who I am anymore.
So it's this real toxic mess.
Um, yeah. So you kind of.
So I was going to ask you this question,
um, about
folks who feel vocationally lost. Because again,
like, I've been there. I don't want to. I want to turn
(32:53):
this into a counseling session here. But
like, I have been there where
I don't like what I was doing.
You know, I didn't know who I was
anymore. So, like, when you're in that spot and
you feel like vocationally just lost, because again,
I'm thinking like, like there's so much transition
happening in churches. I've seen this,
(33:15):
uh, all across the church where pastors,
especially after Covid, many folks,
many leaders stepped down, went to work for, um,
left a church, went for non profit or got out of the church game
entirely.
I've done that. And it's hard.
Uh, yeah. What do you say to those who, just
(33:36):
because they're in that spot where they don't like what
they're doing, they don't know who they am anymore because they've been so wrapped
around this title.
>> Ariana Malloy (33:43):
Yeah. First of all, I just want to say I'm so
sorry you're feeling that way or that you felt that way. That's a
terrible feeling. And I don't think that
it's a feeling you need to ignore. It doesn't. Like you're
not making it bigger than it is. It's a big thing. It's a really big deal.
Um, you know, my parents were on pastoral staff for
when I was a kid, and they ended up, um, leaving from that and
(34:04):
becoming realtors. They worked as real estate agents.
And my dad is a pastor. Okay. He just is
you. You hear him speak and everyone's heart
turns on. His voice is the kind of voice
that makes people feel seen. He is wisdom
incarnate, you know, I mean, he's God's wisdom. And,
uh, he's just a kind, kind, wonderful person. And
(34:25):
he did real estate. And it didn't. It was. He was good
at it. It just wasn't the thing that lit him on fire. But you know what he did?
He chose to pastor in that role
when he could. He would pray for his clients. He also got involved
in two different small groups that he led. He also became a
chaplain for first responders. And so he
still did pastoring without
(34:45):
the role of pastor. He certainly pastored me.
Um, and he's pastoring my son so
he's pastoring my husband. Um, and so
I feel like to not be
dismayed simply because the title
is gone doesn't mean that
calling is gone. It just might need
(35:05):
to be lived out in a different way.
>> Loren (35:07):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (35:08):
And I think going back to the caller and saying,
I feel like you want me to do this, and I, um, don't see space
for this. Show me how. So part of it is just
remembering that the calling is
not lost because the relationship with the
caller is still there and he is faithful and
trustworthy. Now, it does require us doing a little
more work sometimes, and it doesn't always look how we want it to
(35:31):
look.
Um, so the other thing I would say, if you're in that vocationally
lost spot, is build your board of directors. If you've
not yet done this, um, think of a personal board
of three to five people. Literally take the
time to think about who you want,
why you would want them on your personal board, and then what
would be the questions you would ask them? Now I even
(35:52):
think you can have people on there who you don't know. You know, like
CS Lewis is on my personal board of directors.
Um, Dallas Willard. Right. Um, Richard J.
Foster. I don't know them personally. I will go to
them. I will go to their literature and seek knowledge that
way. I also have some actual people that I know.
And so building your board of directors and then
(36:12):
intentionally, uh, and routinely
connecting with them, whether it's through a podcast. I mean, you,
Loren, might be the board of director for people, and they listen
to your podcast, and so that's part of their
guidance. But we cannot thrive
without community. Yeah,
Wise kings, as Proverbs says, have
wise counselors, we cannot thrive without community. We're
(36:35):
not supposed to do this on our own.
And, you know, we haven't really gotten into this part. But one of the other things
that take us to toxic burnout is
something called sustained or chronic stress.
So you're talking about like, you know, the pandemic and stuff. What really
impacted a lot of people is that
stress was no longer like a, uh, seasonal stress. It
was like long term stress. And when that happens,
(36:58):
three specific things happen to our
communication in particular that cause
massive breakdown. And one of them is just
a reduced awareness, you know, in a heightened, ah, state
of stress. We're literally hardwired to fight
flight or freeze, you know, and we see in a tunnel
vision. But we're not meant to live like that
long term. And so sometimes
(37:20):
we miss things. We need community
to help us when we're missing things.
Shame is a lot quieter and a lot less powerful when
we live in community. I mean, Bernie Brown talks about
this. You know, when we, when we name it, it's a lot less powerful.
It loses its power. And I think that, um, I
think you can look at every part of scripture and see evidence of
(37:41):
the health of living in community. But
the problem is when we're in pain, we withdraw.
>> Loren (37:45):
That's.
>> Ariana Malloy (37:46):
That's one of the other parts of living in sustained stress
or chronic stress is we withdraw. And withdrawal is not
necessarily a bad thing. For a time, that can actually be important. But you
have to communicate that you're doing it and then return to your
community.
>> Loren (37:58):
Yeah, yeah, this is all good stuff.
Uh, I'm curious, too. As I think about this
in my own life, what has been helpful for me is
clarification around what is
actually my calling. And I'm curious, like, thinking about,
like, your father's example,
because, uh, like I would have said, like, five,
10 years ago, like, my calling is pastor. Like, it's
(38:21):
like the title of pastor. And I'm wondering
if my calling is like, to serve the church,
which is different. It's similar, but different.
And it can be lived out far different ways.
I'm, uh, curious for your father,
even more broadly speaking, for other leaders you've worked with.
>> Ariana Malloy (38:42):
Yeah. Sorry, can you ask me the question again?
>> Loren (38:45):
Yeah, just like, if it helps, kind of clarifying or
redefining what your calling actually is or.
>> Ariana Malloy (38:50):
For sure. And I think that, um, you know, one of the
necessary things we have to do in a healthy calling,
and I know this is really basic, so I'm not going to shock you with this
piece of news. Okay? One of the things we have to do, we
have to rest. We have to stabbith.
That's one of the three essential things in healthy,
humble calling. And
(39:11):
the reason I say this is that you
cannot have times of reflection if you don't
take time to rest. And you cannot make a change
or course correction if you don't have time for reflection.
So part of reorienting
and checking back in with how our calling
is doing is we have to slow down
(39:32):
long enough to pay attention. And, uh,
especially for people in ministry, actually,
taking time to rest is super complicated.
It's just complicated. Um, but you know what? It's also
complicated for other people. I've interviewed and worked with hospital
executives and hospital staff. If they take
a break in their mind, someone dies.
>> Loren (39:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (39:53):
Like, really? And so I think
it's important that we don't Elevate certain jobs as like, well, if I. If
I rest, this job, this holy job is, you
know, people are going to get hurt. Guess what? A lot of people feel
that way. That's one of the kind of
glorifying ways of work that we need to get out of.
We have humility in Micah 6, 8.
(40:13):
It tells us to walk with God, we need to walk humbly with
God. And humility means knowing that
we can step away for a moment and life
will keep going. And if it doesn't, we are actually
way controlling things. We shouldn't be controlling. You
know, it's not a healthy thing. Jim Collins, in his famous book Good
to Great, talks about the difference between a good leader
(40:33):
and a great leader. A good leader, if they take a break from
their work or their job, everything falls
apart. A great leader, if they take a break from
it, things still go on because people have delegated.
They know their role, they know what's going on.
So I think that going back to needing time to
reflect, I would say to you, Loren, uh, that every
(40:53):
week I have to reorient my calling. By
the time I get to the end of my week, enough other messages
and tendencies and being pulled in different directions have
gotten to my head and my heart. And if I don't take time to
Sabbath, which I'm usually terrible at, by the way, I've
been Sabbathing for 15 years and I'm still not great at it.
Um, but I pursue it because I
(41:14):
know I need to surrender my time. I
need to surrender my focus. John Mark Comer talks about the
worries, the wants, and the work that
consume us. We have to take a break from that
so we can listen to the Holy Spirit and say,
father, what do I need to know right now?
Show me where I've been. Uh, a blessing this week. And show
me where I've failed, and show me what to do about it. Where am I holding
(41:36):
on too tightly? And where do I need to let go?
>> Loren (41:39):
Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I want to ask you two
more questions before we take a break. One is
just when we think about, especially in church
context, my goodness.
Uh, this metaphor as work is family.
Tell us why this is such a
problematic metaphor and what we can do
(42:01):
if. Because, I mean, I feel like even in church context, it's
like work as family is almost like. It's like.
It's not just like. Because there's.
I mean, theologically we would say, like, yes, we're the body of
Christ. We are siblings in Christ.
Um, for a pastor like, you know, we'd
say that's my, that's my sibling in Christ that I'm trying to
(42:21):
serve. But also, like, I
don't know if, like, they're not my flesh and blood per se,
like, I gotta go see my kids, for instance, or my spouse
or whatever. Like, talk through that.
>> Ariana Malloy (42:33):
Uh, yeah, this is a really complicated
and contentious conversation, or it could be at least,
but I don't think it needs to be.
Um, work is
not your family because you don't fire your family.
So that's where it gets problematic. Now, I want to have a big asterisk when
I'm talking about this because I have studied some organizations. I've
(42:54):
actually worked with some organizations. I can think of
one in particular that lives out the family metaphor
beautifully. Now here's why.
Because in that model of family, everyone has a
say. They are family in the good times and the bad
times. So it's not just, oh, you're family, you better agree
with me, right M. Dad or mom are saying, you need to do
(43:14):
this, so you as the child need to agree. That's
not how it was communicated in this particular organization.
In this type of organization, family was used
to say, we are so in this together that if you're not
okay, I'm not okay, let's be okay together.
And in this particular organization, the turnover was
so little. People have worked there for 30, 40,
(43:35):
50 years because they felt taken
care of. And I also think that, um, family
owned businesses are their own complexity. So I just want to say the big
asterisk there. But generally
speaking, we do need to stop using that metaphor unless
we're going to live it out like that. That because we can be a
community, we can be a team. You can find
any other metaphor you want. But
(43:58):
it's really important. We don't throw out the metaphor of family all the time.
Because when you do fire someone, let someone
go, move them to a different part of the company,
and you use that metaphor, that's
manipulative. And it doesn't allow for
people to respond, to have a different opinion.
It then severs them. Did, uh, they get divorced from the
family? If they got fired, can they still be part of the
(44:21):
family? And so I think as Christians, we
are a family, but in the
workplace and that gets really hard because
when you work with your friends and you work in a church or a Christian
organization, it's very complicated.
But I would encourage people to resist using that metaphor.
Really figure out what do you mean when you say that? And is there another
Word or phrase you can use because we are a
(44:43):
tight knit group. That's great to say.
But again, in the family metaphor, there's a very clear mom and
dad and you are always part of the
family. Whether you're adopted in or you're birthed in, you
are part of the family. But that's just not possible
in a workplace. That's just not the context of work.
>> Loren (45:01):
Yeah, that's good.
Okay, one last question before we take a break.
Uh, Arianna teaches and
studies organizational communication,
uh, outside of this book. So
share if you can just, I don't know, one or two
thoughts, hints, uh, ideas for
organizations or churches, whatever, however you want to take
(45:22):
this, that may be common mistakes that
really could be improved to help organizations
do better in their communications.
>> Ariana Malloy (45:30):
Great. Yeah. So one of the things I get to do outside of being a
professor is I work as a consultant or, uh, I help do training
workshops for organizations and churches and
um, specifically on healthy communication in the workplace.
And that is a whole array of things, but it's about
healthy conflict in the workplace. How do you approach
that? Learning about conflict styles, healthy
(45:50):
listening. So this is really interesting. There's four types of
listeners and, and if you identify what kind
of listener you are, you also know why you check out in
like meetings and places. So then you're
responsible for checking back in or making the ask like, hey,
this thing right here is not happening. Can we, can we do it this
way? So knowing yourself that way. Healthy
communication is in the workplace also involves knowing how to
(46:13):
communicate with empathy. You know, Gallup did a
study several years in a row
that basically said 80% of
people would work more hours
with less pay if they knew they had an
empathetic boss. I'm going to say that again.
More hours, less pay
(46:35):
if they knew they had an empathetic boss. Empathy is not
lip service. It is slowing down long
enough to make sure that person feels seen and
heard. And if you have the power to take
action, you take action on their behalf.
And so those are some, um, practical things. I also teach
nonverbal communication. 70% of communication
is non verbal approximately. And learning what that
(46:57):
means in the workplace is really key. There's also things like, like
what is your shared goal in the workplace? For example, I was
talking to a VP recently who said, you know, it's really important to me
that people respond to emails in 24 hours. And
we were like talking about, have you made that clear to people?
Because if not, guess what? Over communication is your very
best friend in the workplace. Over
Communication. Communicating something
(47:19):
multiple times is your very best friend,
because everyone has a million things going on in their head, and
especially if they're not part of your direct report. You might have
thought you've said it once enough, twice enough, three times
enough, but they might need to hear it seven times. Usually, people
need to hear something seven times
before it really sets in. So
(47:40):
there's all sorts of ways that you can approach communicating in the
workplace to garner more cohesion,
a greater sense of motivation, to figure out why
these, like, side conversations on a different text thread
or, like, at the water cooler are happening when they shouldn't be. They should be
happening in the meeting. Um, and I think, again,
communication is. It's like the air that we breathe. We don't
(48:00):
notice it till it stops working, but it's super essential.
>> Loren (48:03):
Well, I look forward to your next book, then, on organizational
communication.
Uh, Ariana's book is Healthy Calling From
Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. Really recommend
it. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
All right, we're back with Arianna Malloy.
>> Ariana Malloy (48:24):
Dr.
>> Loren (48:24):
Uh, Arianna Malloy, thank you so much for this
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Uh,
closing questions. We always tell folks you can take these as seriously or not
as you'd like to, but, uh, if you're Pope for a day,
what do you want to do with that day?
>> Ariana Malloy (48:39):
I m. Would love to see early childhood education be better
for all people. I think, um, for families,
in terms of knowing how to help
develop and cultivate their kids from 0 to 8 years old
is really essential. And I don't know why people assume that
just because you have a kid, you know what to do with them.
It's a very lonely and challenging experience
(49:00):
sometimes, and so I'd love to see more support for that across the
entire world. Um, I think
that it would be really great if
we could change the way we treat people who are retired
and who are done with their primary work.
I think we, as a society in particular, really devalue
one of the most essential populations, and we miss out on
(49:21):
their treasure. And we're also responsible
for the increased loneliness that exists in that
population. And that's a shame. And as in the church, we need to do
better and not relegate them to the corners of the
space.
>> Loren (49:33):
This is good. Okay, real quick, then. Uh,
practically speaking, any, like, thoughts for the Pope on
Pope communication?
>> Ariana Malloy (49:42):
I. I, um, suppose treat it like it's
as essential as medicine. Um, you know,
as a professor in communication undergrad, people like, oh,
communication. What are you going to do with that? And it's like, what can't you do with that?
And what's crazy to me, I wish I could just, like, put it on a
tape recorder or tape recorder. I now show my age. I wish I could put
it on repeat. Um, just that a
(50:03):
couple years after people graduate, they come back to me and they
say, oh, my gosh, everything you taught me in
communication, I'm using on a daily basis. Uh, but you just
don't see it because it feels like it should be
obvious, but it's most of the time the obvious things that get us into
trouble because we don't do them well.
>> Loren (50:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A historical Christian figure
you want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Ariana Malloy (50:24):
Okay. I don't know if I can choose between
them. Um, I love Peter from the Bible. I
love him so much. Um, also John,
also Mary. I feel like she is such
an interesting person. I would love to know more about her,
certainly C.S. lewis. I don't know if you would frame Jane
Austen as a Christian figure, but she, to me, is a
(50:45):
phenomenal, ah, figure in the development identity
of women in particular. Um, so those would
be. I mean, let's be real. C.S. lewis would be
my very first choice, but maybe C.S. lewis and Peter, I don't know.
>> Loren (50:56):
Sure. A dinner party perhaps.
>> Ariana Malloy (50:58):
Ooh, fun.
>> Loren (50:59):
Yeah. Uh, what do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Ariana Malloy (51:05):
That is a really profound question, and I think
that. I don't know if I know how to answer that in a lighthearted way, because I feel
like at this point in the world, people have lost their minds
a little bit.
>> Loren (51:15):
Well, it's.
>> Ariana Malloy (51:15):
Our world is really crazy.
>> Loren (51:19):
Let's leave it there, because that's actually a profound way of
saying it that, um, let's say
this more hopefully. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Ariana Malloy (51:29):
I hope for the future of Christianity that we
stay true to what the definition of biblical love is.
It is not a, uh, it's not for one type of person. It's for all
of us. Love is kind. Love is patient. It is
not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong. I
also love the definition of wisdom that the Bible gives us.
We are meant to be peacemakers, and we are
(51:51):
called to live in peace. Colossians 5 says that.
So I would love if we, as Christians, truly
people, would know who we are by how we love
others.
>> Loren (52:01):
That's good. Uh, share how people can connect with
you. Get the book, all that.
>> Ariana Malloy (52:06):
Yeah. Uh, the easiest way is to Go to my website, which is
arianamilloy.com on that website you can sign
up for newsletters and resources or not. You can
see a bunch of my talks. You can see other things that we do. You can order the
book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or some other different, um,
options. And, um, if you just have a question you want to ask me, I
will totally, I would love to engage.
>> Loren (52:25):
Well, I really appreciate this conversation. So meaningful for me
and I hope for our listeners. Uh, one of the things we always do on our
podcast is a communication practice of, of
leaving people saying a word of peace to folks. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Ariana Malloy (52:39):
Thank you. And you as well.
>> Loren (52:47):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future episodes.
Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(53:08):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
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peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Ariana Malloy (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Ariana
Malloy to the podcast. Ariana
is Associate professor of Organizational
Communication at, uh, Biola University.
Her research focuses on meaningful work,
work as a calling, and the connection
(01:05):
between humility and burnout in the
workplace. She is an award winning
scholar and educator who has published in
the International Journal of Business Communication,
Communication Studies and
Christianity Today.
Ariana is also a consultant for
organizations, business professionals
(01:27):
and ministries. Ariana and her
husband Alan, have own son and enjoy
running half marathons, traveling the world
and drinking good coffee. A
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with
(01:47):
a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your
voice in how we faithfully discern the
(02:08):
future of the church.
>> Loren (02:18):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond
Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined today
by Dr. Ariana Malloy. Hello
and thanks for being here.
>> Ariana Malloy (02:29):
Hello. So glad to be here.
>> Loren (02:30):
Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Let's begin with this. Share just a little bit about your
faith background, what that looked like in the past for you, what that
looks like today.
>> Ariana Malloy (02:42):
Yeah, uh, I have a very kind of
boring story. In some ways, I've loved Jesus since I can
remember. I grew up in a home where two parents
really modeled what love looked like, what
Christ's love looked like in an everyday way. And I
know that that is sometimes very rare. And they didn't come from those
kinds of homes, so they made an intentional choice to do some things
(03:02):
differently. But I have loved Jesus since I can
remember. Um, I think
that there have probably been times in my life where I
would have made different choices in hindsight.
But generally speaking, I have known him as my savior and
my shepherd, my best friend.
Um, in college I read a
couple of books and I was really Involved in
(03:24):
serving in the junior high, in my church and the college ministry
in college, I felt like my prayer life kind of
exploded. I've always loved to pray, but
in that particular season I really
felt invited into a deeper level of
intimacy with the Lord in that regard. So that is,
that's my story.
>> Loren (03:44):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Has prayer remained a central
kind of spiritual practice, spiritual discipline for you? Are there any others
that you've really, uh, grown fond of perhaps?
>> Ariana Malloy (03:52):
Yeah, I think for me, because,
because God is, is a person, because I
have relationship with Him. To me prayer is, is
talking with him, it's coming to him and engaging with
Him. And so, um, it's not, it's
not meant, um, to be ritualistic in my heart and
mind. Although certain rituals do help sometimes.
(04:13):
So, um, you know, one of my favorite books is Sacred
Pathways. And in that book it talks about the seven
different. I think it's seven, actually it might be nine. Nine different
ways that people can feel close to God. Because we're all different.
You know, it's similar to any kind of relationship. We all have different,
essentially love languages and experiences. And the same is
true in our relationship with God. And so my husband and I
read that, uh, about three years into our marriage and it was
(04:35):
really illuminating to, to discern
what lights us up inside each of us. And for me it
is kind of a traditional sense of like. I love reading
scripture in the morning when I have the time. I have a kid now, so it's a little
bit harder. But um, I love just diving into
scripture. I love reading books that sort of
illuminate things about scripture. I love praying.
(04:56):
For me, I feel the most at home with the Lord when I'm in
nature. So finding my, my space in that
is really important. For the last, I don't
know, five years, I've gone for a walk by the beach. We live close
enough to the beach on Friday mornings. Every Friday
I go for a 30 minute walk by the beach and just quiet my
heart and reorient. And for me, when I see
nature, I just feel closer to the Lord.
(05:19):
Whereas my husband, he's more of someone who loves to have
intellectual conversations. I love those too, but they
don't make me necessarily feel closer to God or
he loves to serve again. I love to serve, but it doesn't
necessarily make me feel closer to God. So I think,
um, yeah, figuring out. And again, I think that
can also change depending on the seasons of our lives.
>> Loren (05:39):
Mhm.
Okay, we gotta ask, it's Friday then. Did you get Your walk in.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:44):
I'm going after this actually.
>> Loren (05:45):
Okay, good. I don't want to get in the way of that then. No,
no, I don't wanna get in the way of that.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:49):
Kind of a sacred space for me. So I try to really
protect that when I can.
>> Loren (05:53):
Yeah. And also, like, I am super jealous that you're
gonna get to walk on the beach, but it is what it is.
>> Ariana Malloy (05:59):
I know Colorado
has mountains. There's nothing like the, you know, Rocky Mountains.
But also California has beaches and that's also pretty
great.
>> Loren (06:08):
Yeah. Ariana is a,
what was a part time resident, sometime resident
of, uh, of the Denver Metro. Going
to DU for your PhD. So you got to
enjoy a little bit of it. Well,
uh, even though your story is short in some ways, I'm,
I'm grateful to hear it and also grateful because it gives us
plenty of time to talk about your book.
(06:30):
So Ariana is the author of Healthy Calling
From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work.
And I gotta say, I was really
impressed by this in many ways in the book, but let's
begin. Just kind of the standard boilerplate question, like
what inspired the book? Why did you want to write it?
>> Ariana Malloy (06:49):
Yeah, so in my master's, actually I got my master's
at the University of Portland in Oregon. And in that
time I was studying, um, how faith based
organizations manage their business
values with their faith values. And so that was
interesting to me. And as I was interviewing folks who
were part of organizations that did that, I noticed they
(07:09):
kept using the word calling, which just kind of was in my brain
a little bit. Um, then I went on to get my PhD and
I started studying literature on meaningful work.
So in secular spaces,
that terminology, meaningful work points towards
purposeful work, work that feels purposeful and
impacting. And I remember reading a 2008
article where in this article about meaningful work,
(07:32):
they said more studies should be done about how people also approach work
as a calling. And it was like, yes, I need to study
this. And so, uh, I studied how
people from different professional domains experienced work
as a calling. And so that would have been, you know, an nf. I interviewed
an NFL coach, lawyers, financial advisors, stay
at home parents, artists, musicians,
(07:52):
um, teachers, and, you know,
psychologists. And so I found several things
that marked the way they experienced work as a
calling. By the way, not everyone I interviewed was a Christian.
So people who aren't Christians still have this identified
connection for purpose, which I think is God
given, even if they don't recognize it. Um, so
(08:13):
that's a really cool way to have a conversation. Too. Like, if someone is not a Christian and
they feel called, you can say, well, what's calling you? Can you tell me more about
that? Um, so, yeah, so I studied that
now in my dissertation. You know, it's like a good dissertation is a done
dissertation. So I didn't have time to, like, fully investigate everything.
Um, I studied how people experienced work as a calling.
I also studied the impact of culture and
(08:34):
community on that sense of calling. So when we
have support from, um, our family or
from our workplaces, and when we don't, how does that
impact our ability to live that out?
I also noticed a lot of data
showing up about the dark side of calling.
And initially, it was just about like, you know, burnout and
(08:55):
boundaries and sacrifice. Several years
later, when I was given a research fellowship as a
professor, I returned to some of that literature and through
the lens of looking at humility, this
was part of the fellowship process as we had to study
humility. And as it turns out, all the people
who experienced a healthy sense of calling, who did
not get sucked into the dark side of burnout,
(09:18):
actually lived out this sense of humility in their
calling. So this sort of exploded my research again, and I
started looking at the dark side in a deeper way. I
will say, Loren, that in the midst of all of that, I experienced my
own sense of burnout. I didn't know I would feel called to be a
professor. I did. The Lord stood. Super called me to
that. Um, but three years into it, I
(09:39):
was burnt out to the point where I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm
experiencing everything I researched in my own life.
This is not good. And so I guess the
reason what initially inspired this
book was because I had been in that place of burnout.
I knew what it felt like, and I knew how to get out of
it. And I want anyone who's experienced
(09:59):
that, who's about to experience that, who's experienced it for
so long that they don't know what other parts of life look like
anymore. I don't want them to be trapped by that. And
there are specific practices that help you get out of it.
>> Loren (10:11):
Yeah, this is really good.
I'm intrigued that it's interesting, like you said, that
you interviewed folks outside of
church spaces and also outside of Christianity per se,
who identified their work as calling. I'm remembering many years
ago when I was pursuing
seminary, and I would talk about
my wanting to go to seminary as a calling. And I m
(10:32):
remember talking to a friend who was going to medical
school, and she also kind of used
similar Language to describe her,
her journey to want to become a doctor. So it's very interesting that you say
that.
>> Ariana Malloy (10:45):
Absolutely. In fact, I was driving down the 55 in
California and there's, you know, billboards everywhere. And there was a billboard
for a hospital, uh, that said, you, healing is
our calling. And that, you know, that was there,
um, I was watching a commercial, um, you know, when
commercials actually happen now on streaming services. And there was
a commercial for a truck company, I think it was Dodge Ram. And,
(11:05):
and they said, our calling is to build you good, uh, trucks.
>> Loren (11:08):
Interesting.
>> Ariana Malloy (11:08):
And so there's this really interesting. I mean, I just think that's so
fascinating that we all can identify
with this, this feeling of
being compelled by something that is the
fingerprint of God on, on us and in
us. We were made to be in
relationship with him. We were given this thirst
to connect with him from the very beginning.
>> Loren (11:31):
Well, this is great. I want to talk about, just
kind of talk through some topics in the book.
So let's begin. You've kind of
hinted at them already, some of the positives and
negatives of a work calling.
>> Ariana Malloy (11:47):
Yeah. So I mean, what's really fantastic is
that there's sort of three different ways people can approach work. And
they're not contained, so they can overlap. And you
can experience, sometimes you can experience all three in one day, depending on what's
happening in your job. But the three ways that people experience
work is just a job. That's the first one
where you go to your job because you need to pay the bills, which is
(12:07):
no small thing. That's a very real thing. You, you
took this job because you need to pay the bills. You, you clock
in, you clock out. You might not like it, you might
not love it. There's not necessarily a promise of
upward trajectory. Like there's not necessarily like a 15 year plan
in your mind. You're going to work to live for the weekends.
Very real. The second type of approach
(12:27):
to work is a career. And in this, uh,
mentality, there are entrepreneurs, there are people
who really like what they' they think about it.
They use their skill set, they have that 15 year plan.
And to them success looks like, oh, I got to move to a
bigger office. I got a job title change, I
get to take my family on vacation, I get to buy a new
car. You know, certain, uh, I made, I
(12:50):
helped make a playground in this urban area for kids.
So very explicit sense of reward.
Again, really great experience. Then the third one is a
calling. And in our approach to work as a
calling, It's a sense of
deep joy and satisfaction where
we experience four things happening. The four things that
(13:11):
happen are that it's meaningful. So that's
it's. And that could be the same as a career. It's meaningful.
It's more than just functional. You derive meaning from
it. I interviewed a woman who was a makeup artist and
she did makeup for people. And she said, you know, I get to help
people feel beautiful. It was meaningful
to her. I've interviewed people who were the custodians at
(13:31):
a hospital, and many people unfortunately
deem some work as not real work. And that's really
unfortunate.
>> Loren (13:37):
Right?
>> Ariana Malloy (13:37):
That's actually, in my opinion, unacceptable. Um, it might not
be their ideal type of work, but it could be someone else's. And I remember
interviewing a custodian at a hospital who felt
it was their job to make that hospital room
clean and welcoming for the next person who's
experienced tragedy.
>> Loren (13:53):
Wow.
>> Ariana Malloy (13:54):
And so that, that's dignifying. So, so
meaningful. So the second thing is that you feel a sense of
call, like you can identify, like, oh, I
feel compelled to do this. There's something
some people who are not Christians talk about the universe. I
interviewed a musician who felt, literally felt like his guitar
was calling him to be a musician.
(14:14):
We as Christians know that that is God. The Bible says, my
sheep hear my voice. You know, we respond to the shepherd's
voice. So the first thing is meaningful. The second thing is calling.
The third thing is also really important. It is the
combination. And this is essential, the combination
of skill and passion.
So many of us, and especially right after you graduate
(14:34):
from college, it feels so good to
do a job you're good at. It's very deeply satisfying.
But that is a short term satisfaction. After
about three months, only doing
it because you're good at it becomes a little boring.
There's also this need to feel passionate about
it, to sense a connection to something that you
(14:55):
care personally and deeply about. Now, the flip side's also
true. You can feel so passionate about something, but if you're not
good at it, that can be very demotivating at times.
And I remember interviewing, um, a CEO of a company
who said, passion, uh, alone is not enough.
Passion makes you a great fan. Passion
and skill set makes you a great employee. You can think about
it like, if someone did feel called to be a surgeon,
(15:18):
it's great that they're passionate about it, but you wouldn't want them to walk into the
surgery room without training. This is where apprenticeship and
growth and places like college or
Internships and preparatory work is really important.
The fourth thing about that sense of
calling. So we've got that just a job, we've got a career that
we've got calling. The fourth thing in calling after
meaningful work, a sense of a caller passion and
(15:40):
skillset. The fourth thing this is really, really important is that
it makes a positive impact on others. It is what
social psychologists and social scientists call
pro social behavior. Pro social behavior means
that it's not just a hobby. Doesn't just make you glad,
doesn't just impact you personally, it impacts others.
And this, Loren, is where we can especially get into
(16:01):
the dark side of calling is that connection to impacting
others.
>> Loren (16:05):
Yeah, so I think I, uh, was looking at my phone here. I keep highlights
on my phone. So there's one. There's a couple highlights
that stood out to me. I just want to read them since we're talking about
this one. You. Early on, you
say saying yes to good things is often more seductive than
saying yes to obviously bad
ones. Talk more about that.
>> Ariana Malloy (16:26):
Yeah, so. And you, you asked me, you know, um, talking about
the good and the dark. So of all those categories of people who
approach work, if you feel called, you're actually the most
satisfied in your job. You're the most motivated. You're able
to withstand like, organizational change,
societal shifts. You are the person people want in the
room, you're the yes person. And that's great. But
(16:46):
also research shows you're the most prone to
burnout. M. More than any other type of person,
one might say, well, why is that? And it's because
you see the need, you see the
deep ache, and you know, you can feel
it. And so it's really hard to
know, is it okay to say no sometimes?
(17:07):
If I'm saying no, am I letting down God, am I letting
down my community? Like, am I allowed to
have boundaries? And so
it's really hard. I think often
in certain seasons of life, you're just working hard to have opportunities.
I don't know if you've been in that situation. I think for me in grad school, it was like, anytime I
had an opportunity, I was like, fighting for it. But then you get
(17:27):
to a point in life where your
opportunities are actually all good.
And it's really, really hard to know how to say no to some of
those.
>> Loren (17:37):
Yeah, let's talk about,
um, I'm trying to find the quote here. Oh, let's talk about
the danger of confusing a calling with the
title. I'm trying to find the quote here.
Oh, uh, page 24. Too often we confuse a calling
with a particular title when we should see it as a combination
of skill sets and passions that can be applied to
(17:58):
a number of different occupations. In
this way, our specific calling is always tied to and should
rest under our general calling. So I want to have you
respond to that quote, and I also want to kind of, uh,
dial this in too, to think about. Like this podcast
is a podcast geared at pastors and church leaders thinking about
calling within a specific
faith context, church context, and how
(18:22):
that confusion can happen
even amongst churches, uh, jobs,
church leaders, so to speak.
>> Ariana Malloy (18:30):
Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because when we're talking about
calling, my specific focus of calling is
the, the secondary type. So as Christians,
we are all called. We're called to love
God and love others in everything we do. We do it
as if we're doing it for the Lord. So that is a general
calling that we all have in every sphere of our life.
We should be looking and saying, how am I worshiping the Lord in
(18:53):
this space? God wastes nothing.
And so every part of our life is an opportunity to
worship Him. And Scripture is very clear about
this. How we do that is how we love other people.
>> Loren (19:04):
Mhm.
>> Ariana Malloy (19:05):
It's not separate. It's the same part of
the, of the primary calling. If we're not
loving others, well, we're not actually achieving our calling with
God. And so that's a primary calling.
But God is not just the master of the
universe, the grand king, he is also the
intimate creator. And we need to recognize that he's made
each of us with particular skill sets and
(19:27):
passions. Those are intentional. You know, I, uh, when I talk to
college students and they're trying to figure out if they
should like, pay attention to this interest that they have, I try to
remind them, hey, not everyone has this interest.
Part of the things that drive you that you think about when you're driving your car
or brushing your teeth or you know, randomly doing
something where your mind is going, you want to think
about, is this something that's from the Lord and what am I? What
(19:50):
should I do with that? So I think
as we're talking about calling, and especially
like within the church contexts, we are all called
to love God and love others. But we also need to take
the courage and the risk and the vulnerability
to explore how we
specifically have been designed and um, how we
(20:11):
can develop those skill sets and passions so that when we
do those things, we feel like we're worshiping God. And that could be paid
work Unpaid work, relationships,
service. So work is only one
way in which a secondary calling can be lived out.
It's not the only way. There are a lot of people who just are doing
their job and that is great. And I, in um, fact both of
(20:31):
my parents chose because they felt called to
be good spouses and good parents. They
chose work that they liked, they didn't love
because they really wanted to make sure their home life was
secure. And I think that's the right way to do it. Some of us
have the opportunity to explore paid work in that way,
way as well.
>> Loren (20:50):
So let's, let's dive into this a little bit more because I think there
can be this temptation and maybe I'm just speaking for myself,
having felt this temptation of pursuing a
title when it doesn't
necessarily align with your calling.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:04):
Yeah. So the reality is that
people right now, and we're talking about the tool belt generation, is the
newest generation coming out of college or coming out of high school?
Um, okay.
>> Loren (21:14):
Tool belt generation.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:16):
Yeah.
>> Loren (21:16):
I haven't heard that before.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:18):
Yeah. So people want to acquire a lot of
skill. And I still believe that that comes through going
to college because we can learn a lot about ourselves
by being in class, being in the co curricular part
of college life, being a little bit on our own, but
still approaching life like an apprenticeship job. But college is not for
everyone. You might choose a trade school or immediately
(21:38):
begin apprenticing with somebody,
but the reality is people are changing
jobs between 18 and
42 on average, 10 times.
>> Loren (21:49):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (21:50):
So if we get too attracted to
a job title or a major or
something that makes us feel super, super secure,
we could potentially be missing out on what's actually
happening. Because our calling is less about a job title
and it's more about the skill sets and the passions
and the community we seek to serve. And there's a
(22:12):
variety of ways to, to do that. So I do feel
called to be a professor. But if I were to break that down,
really, Loren, what I feel called to do is I love to
mentor. Like mentorship is to me one of the
most important things. I also love to collaboratively
learn. I love to learn together and talk through
things and explore the why questions. I love to
(22:32):
speak interpersonally, one on one with people, but also
in large groups. And that can happen as
a professor, but that could also happen in other places too.
And if I'm not careful, if I hold that professor job
too tightly, it becomes one of the dark sides
of calling that we talk about, which is an
idol. It becomes an idol rather than the way in which
(22:53):
I can experience my calling.
>> Loren (22:54):
Okay, I really want to hone in on this because this is so important.
I think for me personally, for my
context that I'm hoping to speak to. I'm thinking of a few
different things. So I'm going to kind of just talk here and
hopefully this makes sense. I'm thinking of a book.
I'll have to recommend the title another way. It's been out
for a few years and I had the authors on some time ago
(23:15):
and they talked about, uh, they use
the words like a telos, like an end,
a purpose. So I think there's different language,
similar ethos here. I'm also remembering.
Do you remember this movie a couple years ago?
It was like the Sound of Music or the Noise?
It's about this drummer who lost his hearing.
>> Ariana Malloy (23:36):
No, that sounds really fascinating.
>> Loren (23:38):
Yeah, I can't even remember what it was on, but it was really
meaningful to me because I was going through a kind of a career
transition where I was losing a title. Right. And I
really had to think about like, um,
this guy kind of lost.
He lost his hearing and he was playing in a band. Lost his hearing and
couldn't obviously play in a band anymore.
(23:58):
The movie kind of talks about his journey of like trying to
figure out what his purposes, his calling is. And
it seemed like his, his title was at one point
like, he's a drummer in a band. And it seemed like
he, through the journey of the movie figured out like that his,
his calling or purpose, whatever, was as
someone to, I don't know,
(24:18):
teacher or do music. He kind of went to a deaf school and
it seemed like the, the kind of. The tease was at
the m. End of the movie was like, he's gonna like, teach
these, you know, deaf kids to kind of
learn music, if I'm remembering correctly. But I'm
thinking about this and again, I'm being long winded. So forgive me, but I'm
thinking about this so often in. I
(24:39):
mean, I see it myself in my own, uh, context.
I think for pastors and church leaders there can be such
a
grip on that title that A, like,
sometimes pastors stay too long, uh, when they need
to retire or move on to a different
context. B, like when you stop having that title of
(25:00):
pastor speaking personally, things are really,
uh, confusing. Uh, and then three, it's
like, as we think about
American church, broadly speaking, the, the kind of
professional pastor model is largely going away
in many cases as folks think about bivocationality
and co. Vocationality, whatever. So I've given you a lot
(25:21):
there. Uh, but strike, respond, uh, to what strikes
you there.
>> Ariana Malloy (25:25):
Yeah, I
love certainty. Um, I am a J on
the, um, Myers Briggs, um, in the Enneagram, I am a
6. I'm a healthy 6 usually. But I like. I like a sense of
safety. Um, I am a type A, although I don't think
I'm super stringent. But I love lists, you know, and I love
that security and man job titles or choosing
(25:46):
your major or, um, a season
in life, like, oh, I'm a mom of a this
age kid. Those are all fine.
But ultimately, if we move
from those things being an expression of who
we are to the definition of who we are,
we get into trouble M. When we move from them being
(26:07):
an expression of who we are. Hey, by doing these things,
I get to express who God is to me and I get to
love others. When we move from that which is healthy to
this is who I am. And I don't know who
I am outside of that. Red alarms,
the fire alarm. Like, uh, you know, our smoke detector goes
off very easily in our. In our home. Your smoke
(26:28):
detector should be going off if your job
is how you know yourself is the only
way.
>> Loren (26:34):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (26:35):
And it's incredibly tempting to do that. I think,
particularly, again, it's incredibly tempting to do that when you
feel called because you. You're
experiencing this sweet spot, you know, Certainly not every day and not
with every task. But generally speaking, the work you're
doing makes you feel connected to God. And so when all of
a sudden that's been taken from you or
(26:55):
you no longer feel that because you're super burnt
out, it's extremely disorienting. So I
think what I would say is this goes back to
making sure that we're approaching calling
in a healthy way. And what the really important
thing about that is, rather than thinking about healthy
calling as a category, I'm in it or I'm out of it.
(27:16):
We need to think of it like a spectrum. Where am I today?
I mean, in writing this book, someone asked me, did you write this book for
yourself? I didn't because I've already experienced it.
I wrote it for you. I wrote it
because my passion is mentorship. When I was writing this
book, I was writing it imagining that I'm sitting across
from a coffee table with my favorite white chocolate mocha in
(27:38):
a beautiful mug, cozy with a fireplace nearby,
looking at you, the reader, the listener, and
we're talking together. I did that because,
um, it's really, really hard. It's really hard when you've
experienced that. I think there's a lot of things you can
do. And I'm maybe going on a tangent myself.
>> Loren (27:55):
No, go ahead.
>> Ariana Malloy (27:56):
But, um, there's a really fantastic
grid called job crafting
that you can do that helps you
reset the current job you're doing. If it's not feeling
like a calling. Job crafting, um,
and that's, uh, thinking about the tasks that you're doing.
Task crafting, relational crafting, thinking about
relationships that you're experiencing, and cognitive crafting, just
(28:18):
your mental approach to it.
And we can chat about that if you'd like, but there are things you can
do. But ultimately, let's go back to this. Calling
is about relationship with the caller.
That's what it's about. It's relationship
with the caller. It's relationship with ourselves. That's called
intrapersonal communication. I'm a communication
professor. It's intra how we talk about work, how we talk about
(28:41):
work with ourselves. So, for example, uh, when I
went back from maternity leave after I had my son,
I realized I was feeling so pulled in so many directions,
and I was resentful of it. And so every time I left for
work, my son would say, mommy, don't go. And I would
say, I have to go, buddy. I have to go to work. And I was driving
to work, and I thought, you know what? Me telling
(29:01):
myself that over and over makes me believe that.
But guess what I get to do? I get to go to work.
And so I just made that shift. And so the following day,
I said, oh, buddy, I get to go to work. You know what I get to do today?
I get to love on students, and I get to tell them about
Jesus and communication. And I'm so.
And you get to go to work. You get to go to kindergarten. It's so
(29:22):
exciting. You get to learn, and I'll see you afterwards.
And so reframing that to ourselves is really important.
So relationship with the caller, relationship with ourselves. And
it's also about relationship with the community. And
when we think about that, it's also. It's our work community, and
it's also our personal community. Again with
a healthy calling. Our families.
(29:43):
That's, uh, a. That is part of our primary calling, in my opinion.
And so whatever you see as your family, if you're single, if you're
married, with kids, without kids, whoever you deem as your family, they
better be doing really well. If they're not doing well,
your work is secondary.
>> Loren (29:56):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (29:57):
The problem is people go to their work because it's controllable.
When personal life feels uncontrollable, when bad things are
happening, when kids aren't listening, when conflict with spouses are happening,
they go to work because they can control it again. That takes us
to the other type of dark side, which is workaholism.
>> Loren (30:14):
Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I, uh, feel like I should talk to you
offline about the job crafting grid, but anytime, I would love it.
Uh, I want to talk more about shame and burnout. And I
think if I'm understanding correctly, they're kind of
two different sides, perhaps of the same coin.
I want to read a couple quotes here.
You write, when calling burnout occurs, resulting, uh, feelings
(30:36):
of shame can distort our relationship with a caller,
convincing us we are wasting, destroying or even violating the
skills, passions and opportunities our
caller has given to us. You, uh, also
write about deep shame being consuming, evident in a chronic sense
of unrelenting worthlessness, self doubt,
so on and so forth. I'm curious,
(30:56):
I guess, do you think
is, does shame always come from burnout?
Can they form independently? That's what I, I guess that's my first
question.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:07):
Yeah, good question. So part of understanding the
difference between regular burnout. There's been plenty of books and
research on regular burnout, which is terrible.
>> Loren (31:14):
Right, right.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:15):
You know, people, regular burnout involves very serious things.
Psychological paralysis, cynicism,
apathy, deep exhaustion. People tend to get
sick more often. Um, disconnection from
relationships, just no energy at all. A
lack of meaning. That's terrible.
But burnout from a calling has a unique
fingerprint. It is not just burnout,
(31:37):
it is toxic burnout. And what takes it to
that toxicity is that chronic or
deep shame? Because
it's not just I don't like what I'm doing, which
is terrible.
>> Loren (31:49):
Mhm.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:49):
It's. I don't know who I am anymore.
>> Loren (31:52):
Yes.
>> Ariana Malloy (31:52):
Which is completely disorienting. And the shame
from that comes because of that relational connection
with the caller and the community and even yourself.
The shame happens because it's not just that it's
impacting you, it feels like it's impacting
your relationship with God and the people that
you felt like you're supposed to impact, uh, whether it's in your
(32:13):
professional or personal life. So that shame is
relational and spiritual and it
is paralyzing. So they're
not exactly the same. But that deep shame
is part of the core problem with
toxic burnout and it can hold people
captive.
>> Loren (32:31):
Okay, so I want to, I want to make sure I heard this. So it's. I don't like what
I'm doing and I don't know who I am anymore.
So it's this real toxic mess.
Um, yeah. So you kind of.
So I was going to ask you this question,
um, about
folks who feel vocationally lost. Because again,
like, I've been there. I don't want to. I want to turn
(32:53):
this into a counseling session here. But
like, I have been there where
I don't like what I was doing.
You know, I didn't know who I was
anymore. So, like, when you're in that spot and
you feel like vocationally just lost, because again,
I'm thinking like, like there's so much transition
happening in churches. I've seen this,
(33:15):
uh, all across the church where pastors,
especially after Covid, many folks,
many leaders stepped down, went to work for, um,
left a church, went for non profit or got out of the church game
entirely.
I've done that. And it's hard.
Uh, yeah. What do you say to those who, just
(33:36):
because they're in that spot where they don't like what
they're doing, they don't know who they am anymore because they've been so wrapped
around this title.
>> Ariana Malloy (33:43):
Yeah. First of all, I just want to say I'm so
sorry you're feeling that way or that you felt that way. That's a
terrible feeling. And I don't think that
it's a feeling you need to ignore. It doesn't. Like you're
not making it bigger than it is. It's a big thing. It's a really big deal.
Um, you know, my parents were on pastoral staff for
when I was a kid, and they ended up, um, leaving from that and
(34:04):
becoming realtors. They worked as real estate agents.
And my dad is a pastor. Okay. He just is
you. You hear him speak and everyone's heart
turns on. His voice is the kind of voice
that makes people feel seen. He is wisdom
incarnate, you know, I mean, he's God's wisdom. And,
uh, he's just a kind, kind, wonderful person. And
(34:25):
he did real estate. And it didn't. It was. He was good
at it. It just wasn't the thing that lit him on fire. But you know what he did?
He chose to pastor in that role
when he could. He would pray for his clients. He also got involved
in two different small groups that he led. He also became a
chaplain for first responders. And so he
still did pastoring without
(34:45):
the role of pastor. He certainly pastored me.
Um, and he's pastoring my son so
he's pastoring my husband. Um, and so
I feel like to not be
dismayed simply because the title
is gone doesn't mean that
calling is gone. It just might need
(35:05):
to be lived out in a different way.
>> Loren (35:07):
Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (35:08):
And I think going back to the caller and saying,
I feel like you want me to do this, and I, um, don't see space
for this. Show me how. So part of it is just
remembering that the calling is
not lost because the relationship with the
caller is still there and he is faithful and
trustworthy. Now, it does require us doing a little
more work sometimes, and it doesn't always look how we want it to
(35:31):
look.
Um, so the other thing I would say, if you're in that vocationally
lost spot, is build your board of directors. If you've
not yet done this, um, think of a personal board
of three to five people. Literally take the
time to think about who you want,
why you would want them on your personal board, and then what
would be the questions you would ask them? Now I even
(35:52):
think you can have people on there who you don't know. You know, like
CS Lewis is on my personal board of directors.
Um, Dallas Willard. Right. Um, Richard J.
Foster. I don't know them personally. I will go to
them. I will go to their literature and seek knowledge that
way. I also have some actual people that I know.
And so building your board of directors and then
(36:12):
intentionally, uh, and routinely
connecting with them, whether it's through a podcast. I mean, you,
Loren, might be the board of director for people, and they listen
to your podcast, and so that's part of their
guidance. But we cannot thrive
without community. Yeah,
Wise kings, as Proverbs says, have
wise counselors, we cannot thrive without community. We're
(36:35):
not supposed to do this on our own.
And, you know, we haven't really gotten into this part. But one of the other things
that take us to toxic burnout is
something called sustained or chronic stress.
So you're talking about like, you know, the pandemic and stuff. What really
impacted a lot of people is that
stress was no longer like a, uh, seasonal stress. It
was like long term stress. And when that happens,
(36:58):
three specific things happen to our
communication in particular that cause
massive breakdown. And one of them is just
a reduced awareness, you know, in a heightened, ah, state
of stress. We're literally hardwired to fight
flight or freeze, you know, and we see in a tunnel
vision. But we're not meant to live like that
long term. And so sometimes
(37:20):
we miss things. We need community
to help us when we're missing things.
Shame is a lot quieter and a lot less powerful when
we live in community. I mean, Bernie Brown talks about
this. You know, when we, when we name it, it's a lot less powerful.
It loses its power. And I think that, um, I
think you can look at every part of scripture and see evidence of
(37:41):
the health of living in community. But
the problem is when we're in pain, we withdraw.
>> Loren (37:45):
That's.
>> Ariana Malloy (37:46):
That's one of the other parts of living in sustained stress
or chronic stress is we withdraw. And withdrawal is not
necessarily a bad thing. For a time, that can actually be important. But you
have to communicate that you're doing it and then return to your
community.
>> Loren (37:58):
Yeah, yeah, this is all good stuff.
Uh, I'm curious, too. As I think about this
in my own life, what has been helpful for me is
clarification around what is
actually my calling. And I'm curious, like, thinking about,
like, your father's example,
because, uh, like I would have said, like, five,
10 years ago, like, my calling is pastor. Like, it's
(38:21):
like the title of pastor. And I'm wondering
if my calling is like, to serve the church,
which is different. It's similar, but different.
And it can be lived out far different ways.
I'm, uh, curious for your father,
even more broadly speaking, for other leaders you've worked with.
>> Ariana Malloy (38:42):
Yeah. Sorry, can you ask me the question again?
>> Loren (38:45):
Yeah, just like, if it helps, kind of clarifying or
redefining what your calling actually is or.
>> Ariana Malloy (38:50):
For sure. And I think that, um, you know, one of the
necessary things we have to do in a healthy calling,
and I know this is really basic, so I'm not going to shock you with this
piece of news. Okay? One of the things we have to do, we
have to rest. We have to stabbith.
That's one of the three essential things in healthy,
humble calling. And
(39:11):
the reason I say this is that you
cannot have times of reflection if you don't
take time to rest. And you cannot make a change
or course correction if you don't have time for reflection.
So part of reorienting
and checking back in with how our calling
is doing is we have to slow down
(39:32):
long enough to pay attention. And, uh,
especially for people in ministry, actually,
taking time to rest is super complicated.
It's just complicated. Um, but you know what? It's also
complicated for other people. I've interviewed and worked with hospital
executives and hospital staff. If they take
a break in their mind, someone dies.
>> Loren (39:51):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Ariana Malloy (39:53):
Like, really? And so I think
it's important that we don't Elevate certain jobs as like, well, if I. If
I rest, this job, this holy job is, you
know, people are going to get hurt. Guess what? A lot of people feel
that way. That's one of the kind of
glorifying ways of work that we need to get out of.
We have humility in Micah 6, 8.
(40:13):
It tells us to walk with God, we need to walk humbly with
God. And humility means knowing that
we can step away for a moment and life
will keep going. And if it doesn't, we are actually
way controlling things. We shouldn't be controlling. You
know, it's not a healthy thing. Jim Collins, in his famous book Good
to Great, talks about the difference between a good leader
(40:33):
and a great leader. A good leader, if they take a break from
their work or their job, everything falls
apart. A great leader, if they take a break from
it, things still go on because people have delegated.
They know their role, they know what's going on.
So I think that going back to needing time to
reflect, I would say to you, Loren, uh, that every
(40:53):
week I have to reorient my calling. By
the time I get to the end of my week, enough other messages
and tendencies and being pulled in different directions have
gotten to my head and my heart. And if I don't take time to
Sabbath, which I'm usually terrible at, by the way, I've
been Sabbathing for 15 years and I'm still not great at it.
Um, but I pursue it because I
(41:14):
know I need to surrender my time. I
need to surrender my focus. John Mark Comer talks about the
worries, the wants, and the work that
consume us. We have to take a break from that
so we can listen to the Holy Spirit and say,
father, what do I need to know right now?
Show me where I've been. Uh, a blessing this week. And show
me where I've failed, and show me what to do about it. Where am I holding
(41:36):
on too tightly? And where do I need to let go?
>> Loren (41:39):
Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I want to ask you two
more questions before we take a break. One is
just when we think about, especially in church
context, my goodness.
Uh, this metaphor as work is family.
Tell us why this is such a
problematic metaphor and what we can do
(42:01):
if. Because, I mean, I feel like even in church context, it's
like work as family is almost like. It's like.
It's not just like. Because there's.
I mean, theologically we would say, like, yes, we're the body of
Christ. We are siblings in Christ.
Um, for a pastor like, you know, we'd
say that's my, that's my sibling in Christ that I'm trying to
(42:21):
serve. But also, like, I
don't know if, like, they're not my flesh and blood per se,
like, I gotta go see my kids, for instance, or my spouse
or whatever. Like, talk through that.
>> Ariana Malloy (42:33):
Uh, yeah, this is a really complicated
and contentious conversation, or it could be at least,
but I don't think it needs to be.
Um, work is
not your family because you don't fire your family.
So that's where it gets problematic. Now, I want to have a big asterisk when
I'm talking about this because I have studied some organizations. I've
(42:54):
actually worked with some organizations. I can think of
one in particular that lives out the family metaphor
beautifully. Now here's why.
Because in that model of family, everyone has a
say. They are family in the good times and the bad
times. So it's not just, oh, you're family, you better agree
with me, right M. Dad or mom are saying, you need to do
(43:14):
this, so you as the child need to agree. That's
not how it was communicated in this particular organization.
In this type of organization, family was used
to say, we are so in this together that if you're not
okay, I'm not okay, let's be okay together.
And in this particular organization, the turnover was
so little. People have worked there for 30, 40,
(43:35):
50 years because they felt taken
care of. And I also think that, um, family
owned businesses are their own complexity. So I just want to say the big
asterisk there. But generally
speaking, we do need to stop using that metaphor unless
we're going to live it out like that. That because we can be a
community, we can be a team. You can find
any other metaphor you want. But
(43:58):
it's really important. We don't throw out the metaphor of family all the time.
Because when you do fire someone, let someone
go, move them to a different part of the company,
and you use that metaphor, that's
manipulative. And it doesn't allow for
people to respond, to have a different opinion.
It then severs them. Did, uh, they get divorced from the
family? If they got fired, can they still be part of the
(44:21):
family? And so I think as Christians, we
are a family, but in the
workplace and that gets really hard because
when you work with your friends and you work in a church or a Christian
organization, it's very complicated.
But I would encourage people to resist using that metaphor.
Really figure out what do you mean when you say that? And is there another
Word or phrase you can use because we are a
(44:43):
tight knit group. That's great to say.
But again, in the family metaphor, there's a very clear mom and
dad and you are always part of the
family. Whether you're adopted in or you're birthed in, you
are part of the family. But that's just not possible
in a workplace. That's just not the context of work.
>> Loren (45:01):
Yeah, that's good.
Okay, one last question before we take a break.
Uh, Arianna teaches and
studies organizational communication,
uh, outside of this book. So
share if you can just, I don't know, one or two
thoughts, hints, uh, ideas for
organizations or churches, whatever, however you want to take
(45:22):
this, that may be common mistakes that
really could be improved to help organizations
do better in their communications.
>> Ariana Malloy (45:30):
Great. Yeah. So one of the things I get to do outside of being a
professor is I work as a consultant or, uh, I help do training
workshops for organizations and churches and
um, specifically on healthy communication in the workplace.
And that is a whole array of things, but it's about
healthy conflict in the workplace. How do you approach
that? Learning about conflict styles, healthy
(45:50):
listening. So this is really interesting. There's four types of
listeners and, and if you identify what kind
of listener you are, you also know why you check out in
like meetings and places. So then you're
responsible for checking back in or making the ask like, hey,
this thing right here is not happening. Can we, can we do it this
way? So knowing yourself that way. Healthy
communication is in the workplace also involves knowing how to
(46:13):
communicate with empathy. You know, Gallup did a
study several years in a row
that basically said 80% of
people would work more hours
with less pay if they knew they had an
empathetic boss. I'm going to say that again.
More hours, less pay
(46:35):
if they knew they had an empathetic boss. Empathy is not
lip service. It is slowing down long
enough to make sure that person feels seen and
heard. And if you have the power to take
action, you take action on their behalf.
And so those are some, um, practical things. I also teach
nonverbal communication. 70% of communication
is non verbal approximately. And learning what that
(46:57):
means in the workplace is really key. There's also things like, like
what is your shared goal in the workplace? For example, I was
talking to a VP recently who said, you know, it's really important to me
that people respond to emails in 24 hours. And
we were like talking about, have you made that clear to people?
Because if not, guess what? Over communication is your very
best friend in the workplace. Over
Communication. Communicating something
(47:19):
multiple times is your very best friend,
because everyone has a million things going on in their head, and
especially if they're not part of your direct report. You might have
thought you've said it once enough, twice enough, three times
enough, but they might need to hear it seven times. Usually, people
need to hear something seven times
before it really sets in. So
(47:40):
there's all sorts of ways that you can approach communicating in the
workplace to garner more cohesion,
a greater sense of motivation, to figure out why
these, like, side conversations on a different text thread
or, like, at the water cooler are happening when they shouldn't be. They should be
happening in the meeting. Um, and I think, again,
communication is. It's like the air that we breathe. We don't
(48:00):
notice it till it stops working, but it's super essential.
>> Loren (48:03):
Well, I look forward to your next book, then, on organizational
communication.
Uh, Ariana's book is Healthy Calling From
Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. Really recommend
it. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
All right, we're back with Arianna Malloy.
>> Ariana Malloy (48:24):
Dr.
>> Loren (48:24):
Uh, Arianna Malloy, thank you so much for this
conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Uh,
closing questions. We always tell folks you can take these as seriously or not
as you'd like to, but, uh, if you're Pope for a day,
what do you want to do with that day?
>> Ariana Malloy (48:39):
I m. Would love to see early childhood education be better
for all people. I think, um, for families,
in terms of knowing how to help
develop and cultivate their kids from 0 to 8 years old
is really essential. And I don't know why people assume that
just because you have a kid, you know what to do with them.
It's a very lonely and challenging experience
(49:00):
sometimes, and so I'd love to see more support for that across the
entire world. Um, I think
that it would be really great if
we could change the way we treat people who are retired
and who are done with their primary work.
I think we, as a society in particular, really devalue
one of the most essential populations, and we miss out on
(49:21):
their treasure. And we're also responsible
for the increased loneliness that exists in that
population. And that's a shame. And as in the church, we need to do
better and not relegate them to the corners of the
space.
>> Loren (49:33):
This is good. Okay, real quick, then. Uh,
practically speaking, any, like, thoughts for the Pope on
Pope communication?
>> Ariana Malloy (49:42):
I. I, um, suppose treat it like it's
as essential as medicine. Um, you know,
as a professor in communication undergrad, people like, oh,
communication. What are you going to do with that? And it's like, what can't you do with that?
And what's crazy to me, I wish I could just, like, put it on a
tape recorder or tape recorder. I now show my age. I wish I could put
it on repeat. Um, just that a
(50:03):
couple years after people graduate, they come back to me and they
say, oh, my gosh, everything you taught me in
communication, I'm using on a daily basis. Uh, but you just
don't see it because it feels like it should be
obvious, but it's most of the time the obvious things that get us into
trouble because we don't do them well.
>> Loren (50:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A historical Christian figure
you want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Ariana Malloy (50:24):
Okay. I don't know if I can choose between
them. Um, I love Peter from the Bible. I
love him so much. Um, also John,
also Mary. I feel like she is such
an interesting person. I would love to know more about her,
certainly C.S. lewis. I don't know if you would frame Jane
Austen as a Christian figure, but she, to me, is a
(50:45):
phenomenal, ah, figure in the development identity
of women in particular. Um, so those would
be. I mean, let's be real. C.S. lewis would be
my very first choice, but maybe C.S. lewis and Peter, I don't know.
>> Loren (50:56):
Sure. A dinner party perhaps.
>> Ariana Malloy (50:58):
Ooh, fun.
>> Loren (50:59):
Yeah. Uh, what do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Ariana Malloy (51:05):
That is a really profound question, and I think
that. I don't know if I know how to answer that in a lighthearted way, because I feel
like at this point in the world, people have lost their minds
a little bit.
>> Loren (51:15):
Well, it's.
>> Ariana Malloy (51:15):
Our world is really crazy.
>> Loren (51:19):
Let's leave it there, because that's actually a profound way of
saying it that, um, let's say
this more hopefully. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Ariana Malloy (51:29):
I hope for the future of Christianity that we
stay true to what the definition of biblical love is.
It is not a, uh, it's not for one type of person. It's for all
of us. Love is kind. Love is patient. It is
not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong. I
also love the definition of wisdom that the Bible gives us.
We are meant to be peacemakers, and we are
(51:51):
called to live in peace. Colossians 5 says that.
So I would love if we, as Christians, truly
people, would know who we are by how we love
others.
>> Loren (52:01):
That's good. Uh, share how people can connect with
you. Get the book, all that.
>> Ariana Malloy (52:06):
Yeah. Uh, the easiest way is to Go to my website, which is
arianamilloy.com on that website you can sign
up for newsletters and resources or not. You can
see a bunch of my talks. You can see other things that we do. You can order the
book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or some other different, um,
options. And, um, if you just have a question you want to ask me, I
will totally, I would love to engage.
>> Loren (52:25):
Well, I really appreciate this conversation. So meaningful for me
and I hope for our listeners. Uh, one of the things we always do on our
podcast is a communication practice of, of
leaving people saying a word of peace to folks. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Ariana Malloy (52:39):
Thank you. And you as well.
>> Loren (52:47):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future episodes.
Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(53:08):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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