March 25, 2025 • 59 mins
In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Martha Tatarnic talks with Kyle Norman about his latest book, Alive, Loved, and Free, which explores what it means to hold on to faith in the face of spiritual discouragement, suffering, and doubt. Drawing from his own experience as a priest and caregiver during his wife’s cancer treatment, Kyle shares how this painful journey reshaped his understanding of ministry, prayer, and God’s presence. Together, they discuss Kyle’s journey in ministry and his role as Dean in the Anglican Church of Canada, the power of the Daily Office and morning prayer, and the spiritual pitfalls many Christians face—feelings of unworthiness, struggling to pray, and wrestling with belief. The conversation explores the silence of God in suffering and the presence that often meets us instead, how church leaders can model honest vulnerability, and why doubt is not a disqualifier for faith. Kyle offers practical insights on forgiveness, feeling God’s love, and navigating big spiritual questions, while also sharing his hopes for the future of vibrant, small, and grace-filled Christian communities.
Reverend Kyle Norman is a priest, author, and speaker. Kyle holds Bachelor’s degree in Philosophy, a Masters in Divinity, and a Doctorate in Spiritual Formation. He currently live in Kamloops British Columbia with his wife and son. Currently, Kyle is the Rector of St. Paul’s Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of the People. Kyle is also the Author of “Alive, Loved, & Free: Finding Jesus when Faith is Hard” which tackles the tricky issue of feeling discouraged in our faith.
Relevant Links
Website: www.revkylenorman.ca
Facebook: facebook.com/ReverendKyleNorman
Instagram @reverend.kyle.norman
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
>> Loren (00:45):
Today, Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Reverend Kyle
Norman to the show. Kyle is a
priest, author and speaker. He holds a bachelor's
degree in philosophy, a master's in divinity,
and a doctorate in spiritual formation. He
currently lives in Kamloops, British Columbia with his wife
and son. Currently, Kyle is The rector of
(01:06):
St Paul's Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of
the People. Kyle is also the author of
Alive, Loved and Finding Jesus When
Faith is Hard, which tackles the tricky issues of
feeling discouraged in our faith. As
always, please take a moment to.
>> Loren Richmond (01:21):
Rate and review the show and share.
>> Loren (01:24):
Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with
Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
Thanks so much for joining us as.
>> Loren Richmond (01:31):
We faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your
host for today's episode, Martha
Tatarnic And I'm so very happy to be joined
today by the Very Reverend Kyle
Norman. We are fellow
colleagues in the Anglican Church of Canada.
I don't think that we have actually met in
person, but we have talked over the years
(02:06):
and, uh, had some, um. Fun
church nerd moments.
>> Kyle Norman (02:10):
Exactly. Yes. I don't. We haven't, um. Yeah, no, we
haven't met in person, but I've always enjoyed
chatting with you when we get to geek out over stuff. So it's
my pleasure to be here. So thank you very much for having
me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:23):
All right, well, we have some exciting things to talk
about today, namely your brand new
book, uh, Alive, Loved
and Free. But we're going to get to that in a moment
because it's important to just give
our listeners, our audience, a sense
of who you are and, uh, what you're about.
So, Kyle, maybe you can share
(02:45):
with all of us a little bit about your faith journey,
what that has looked like in the past and what that
looks like now.
>> Kyle Norman (02:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up in
the Anglican Church. Ah. My first
memories were sitting in the front of the church, uh,
reading the liturgical book. So before Sunday
school, I would see how far I could get before I had to go
down. Uh, and so it was always.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:09):
That really says a lot I have to say.
>> Kyle Norman (03:12):
Yeah, exactly. Um, and so just grew
up in the church and spent some time as a youth worker.
Had the call to ministry when I was in grade 10,
um, and then seminary and I was
in a church in the B.C. then I was 13 years in
Calgary and have now moved into
being the rector of St Paul's
(03:32):
Cathedral and the dean of the
diocese. So I have quite the
complicated role but I get to talk with a
wide variety of people in the church.
Ministers, uh, both um, lay and
ordain new um members
joining the Anglican Church, um, and some of
our rural areas just going to the church that's there.
(03:55):
And so it's quite a unique kind of thing.
So uh, it's been a fun ride so
far.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:02):
Okay, well just a couple of uh, little follow
up things about what you just shared. It's
amazing how many people get their
call in that age range. It was the same for
me. I was 15, it was grade
10. Um, and I've
talked to so many people that it's that age,
it's 15. Um, and not just like call
(04:24):
to ministry but like call to
a variety of like vocations.
So I just had to comment on that because I find
it remarkable. And then because our
listeners aren't uh, you know, all Anglican or
even primarily Anglican.
Can you just say a little bit more about what that
role of dean is? Because not everybody
(04:45):
would know what that title ah is.
>> Kyle Norman (04:48):
Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So the dean in
the Anglican context is
um, so it's an area role. So we are
headed by a bishop and the bishop is the
senior pastor amongst the pastors and the one who
kind of heads up the diocese.
And the dean is kind of like the second in command.
(05:09):
And so I help the bishop um,
navigate the complexity of ministry in the
diocese. And so um, we have
about 14 parishes and
31 different congregations in the territory of the people
where I am it's a smaller diocese and
so I help, I deal with the clergy, I help
(05:30):
manage conflicts if they arrive
or maybe we should say when they arrive.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:35):
Yeah, when.
>> Kyle Norman (05:37):
And uh, then I, yeah so
I aid the bishop, um, and I
take some things that I can do so that she
is freed up to do only the things that the bishop can
do.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:50):
Okay, that's great. That's just helpful for our
listeners to kind of have a sense of how our
Anglican polity works.
>> Kyle Norman (05:57):
Yes, exactly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:59):
So Kyle, is there a spiritual practice that, uh,
you're finding particularly meaningful right now,
particularly as you navigate those
various roles and, uh, leadership.
>> Kyle Norman (06:11):
Yeah. I have always been
a fan of morning prayer.
Um, and um, like again, as an
Anglican, from the liturgical book, so not just praying in the
morning, but doing this daily
office. And so, um, that's
always been kind of sustaining for
(06:31):
me. And it goes up and down depending on the
busyness in the seasons. But it
really helps me to
be able to do that, um, in
the morning before I go to my phone, before I check my
emails, before I do anything, to be able to
go and sit down and
(06:51):
engage in this time of
prayer. Um, it helps settles
me and it helps prepare me for what I
might be facing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:03):
Well, um, one of the things that I love
about doing this podcast is noting those
connections, like, across the various
conversations that we have and uh,
especially because we have conversations
across a variety of denominations. I have said this
so many times that I feel like I'm beginning to sound like,
(07:23):
uh, an advertisement for the daily office.
But so many people name that
as like the practice that is
grounding and like connecting for
them and not just Anglicans. Like, I find it totally
remarkable.
>> Kyle Norman (07:39):
It's fabulous. Part of my, when, uh, I did
my doctorate, part of my doctoral research was taking a group
of people and leading them in morning
prayer for ten weeks.
Um, in this research study I had to do. And by week
three or four, the majority of
them had said, this is a
(07:59):
defining practice of my life. That, that
I, that is, um, one person
said morning prayer has hacked my
morning. Right. Because it just, it reframed
everything. Right. And so it's, it's really a
powerful activity.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:16):
So future Christian listeners, if you
haven't tried the daily office, it might
be something to really consider because I,
I think that this is a, a message that we
keep getting across our various guests.
It's pretty cool.
>> Kyle Norman (08:31):
Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:34):
Okay, so like I said at the beginning, we are here
to talk about your brand new book
called Alive, Loved and
Free. And um, I
am really grateful that you sent me an advance copy.
I had an opportunity to read it. It is such a
personal book and it is such a pastoral
book. Like, it is just
(08:56):
like exploding with heart for
God's people is how I would define
it. So maybe you
can just get us into uh, the
premise of the book, especially like, what prompted
you're writing it.
>> Kyle Norman (09:11):
Yeah, so what?
So the book follows my
journey of dealing
with, um, or going through a period
of time which was the hardest kind of
spiritual time that I've ever Been a part of dealing, um,
with my wife's cancer diagnosis and
(09:31):
subsequent, um, chemotherapy
and all of that. And I'm very, very clear that this
is my story as. As
priest and as caregiver. It's not her story.
Um, she gets to tell her story.
Um, and I'm also clear, like, I had the better deal of
this, right? Like, she had chemotherapy and
(09:52):
nausea and hair loss. And, you
know, I struggled with prayer,
like, but, you know, I
was unprepared for
the. Just the amount
of spiritual upheaval I would end up
in, um, having to walk with my wife through
this. I talked about morning prayer, and I just.
(10:15):
I couldn't pray. Like, my. That
liturgy just dried up.
And, um, I had such a hard
time dealing with everything
that m. It really changed the
way that I understand
ministry and how to pastor people in
(10:36):
the midst of this
seemingly difficult time in their lives.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:44):
Okay. So it was really, like, a matter
of, like, the rubber hitting
the road for you in terms of things that
maybe had been theoretical or, like, at
a distance and suddenly or living it, uh, is
that fair to say?
>> Kyle Norman (11:00):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um,
you know, like, it's easy. So my wife is
diagnosed on Maundy Thursday. And so part of this is
also, like, part of the book takes my
journey and my struggles and pairs it with the
great three days. So Maundy Thursday, Good
Friday, and Holy Saturday. And that's how I structure the book.
(11:21):
But, yeah, up until that point,
you know, I could make my solemn
meditations on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday from
the ease of my seat. Right. And it
was all very, you know, theological and
biblical and, oh, it's so great. But it was very
easy. Um, and then in the midst of that
(11:41):
time, feeling just
almost probably for the first time, feeling this
visceral, I have no clue what to
do, and I have no clue where God is in the
midst of this. Um, and
so very, very personal.
And because we don't always talk about
these kind of things in the church, um, in any
(12:04):
sort of. Kind of real way,
um, again, was completely unprepared
for, um, what was coming.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:13):
Yeah. So let's take that apart a little bit
more. Um,
um, like,
what are the things that we're missing? Like, certainly
we have a faith and a tradition
that, you know, keeps, like, our mortality
and the frailty of life quite
viscerally in front of us. Uh, we're recording this the day
(12:33):
after Ash Wednesday, which, um,
you know, like, we get to show up and be
told you're gonna die.
So.
>> Kyle Norman (12:43):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:43):
Yeah. Yeah, here's some ashes.
It's, uh, not gonna last. Right.
Like, we do, we have a lot of
honesty in our tradition that I think is, like,
quite in contrast to the world
around us, um, which has a bit
of an allergy to talking about
aging and, um,
(13:06):
frailty and death. So, like,
what. What would you identify as kind of the
missing pieces? Uh,
uh, like in.
In what we're not talking about and. And how we're
not kind of engaging people.
>> Kyle Norman (13:23):
Well, and that's. And that's. I think it's hard to.
It's hard to pick apart in some sense. You know,
it's. I know that for myself, part
of my struggle was that I
had adopted a
personality that. And maybe because, you
know, because I'm the priest, that I have to
have everything put together right, and I
(13:45):
have to have the answers, and I have to be okay. And
so when people say, kyle, how are you doing? I
just say, fine. Right.
And, um. And I think, you know, I brought that in as
the priest, but I think so
often we. We
cultivate that in the community as well. That the
community is the place that the church, you know,
(14:07):
even though we disagree with it and we know theologically
it's not the case, but we, like, in
practical terms, I think sometimes the
community develops this attitude that this is the place to
go when you have all the answers figured out
and everything's okay. Um, and
you can sit in the pew with the people that are like you.
(14:28):
And when people ask you, how are you doing? All they
want is, I'm fine. And so when
people come up against something, and
I'm sure, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure that you have found this
as well. People enter into a time
of discouragement or struggle, and they
say, I have to leave the
church. And once I figure it all out,
(14:50):
well, then I'll come back. Well, nine times out
of ten, they don't. Right. And so,
um, rather than the church being this
place, this gathering place,
where it's okay not to be okay and
it's okay to articulate that
and why we've developed that
attitude, I'm not exactly sure, you know,
(15:13):
but I do know that there needs to be a willingness
to. To articulate
those deep hurts of the soul and
those deep discouragements,
um, And.
And build a culture that says
that these are the places in which we might
actually find community more,
(15:36):
but also find God in the midst of
it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there definitely is
a real strain of Christian thought
and culture around,
um, you know, the strength of
your faith, uh, being
measured kind of by an absence of doubt.
Your faith is strong enough to move mountains. You're
(16:03):
not gonna acknowledge the possibility that
it's not gonna work out or that you don't
have everything figured out. I mean, I think that
can be a part of Christian culture. I
think maybe also what you're
naming is, in our
Anglican tradition, there can be,
(16:23):
ah, a politeness to
our church culture, ah,
like a reserved, um,
kind of nature to our church culture that
people do want to present
as having things
together.
>> Kyle Norman (16:41):
Um, I think so. And that's part of why I
wanted to write the book.
Right. Is, um, in every church that
I've been a part of, and
I'm 22 years into ministry, and I've been in
various different churches, from rural churches to an urban church and
now to a cathedral, um, and I have met
faithful Christian men and women, um,
(17:02):
who deep within, carry a certain
amount of shame or
guilt because they feel they're doing it
wrong. Right. Because they hear.
They read in books or they hear in a sermon
that God answers prayer, and
they think, well, I've never had God answer
one of my prayers. Or, you know, this person
(17:25):
talks so passionately about feeling the love of
Jesus, and. But I don't know if I've ever felt the love of
Jesus. And so there must be some. And these are people who have
sat in the same Pew for 30 years.
Right. And so what I wanted to do was
articulate that this kind of sense of
Pollyanna, uh, everything is okay,
(17:45):
um, is not actually the biblical understanding of faith at
all. Um, and we need to be
honest about that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:53):
And you figured that out in a very
personal way. Yeah. Um,
Yeah, I think that sense of inadequacy can be
really rife. And I hear it a lot
around prayer, especially that people kind of feel
like everybody else understands how to pray. But,
like, it feels
(18:14):
not straightforward for me. Right.
>> Kyle Norman (18:17):
Like, yeah, absolutely. I remember,
um, and this was probably just maybe
two years or so before, um,
Alicia's diagnosis, um,
and just kind of recognizing
nobody had ever actually taught me to pray.
Like, Right. In terms of, like, I could say
(18:39):
the words and. But it was kind of assumed,
you know, you'll figure it out. All through university,
all through Sunday school, all through
seminary, nobody had kind of said, let's
really talk about what
prayer is in this kind of internal way.
And let's talk about what it means to, you know, to
pray our supplications. But let's also talk
(19:02):
about lamentations and how that is a
really Authentic way, like, you can
scream and you can yell and you can do all of that.
Um, and so I had done a lot of
reading, which I think was very
preparatory and, you know, and very kind of
well timed divinely
for what I was going to be heading into.
(19:24):
Um, but that didn't take away the visceralness
of being in those places at that time.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:31):
Yeah, Yeah, I can appreciate that.
So, um, connected to,
like, that sense of inadequacy.
And
I think that feeling, that
kind of scared feeling a lot of people can have about,
like, yeah, maybe their faith
(19:52):
doesn't measure up to
what is expected or what others,
um, have experienced. You
share a lot of other stories
that I think are very much related to this, of
people who have come to believe that
they're, like, just not worthy of God's
(20:12):
love. Um, that they're not good enough,
that their faith isn't good enough. That can also be
connected to forgiveness. And, like, maybe
other people can be forgiven, but if they knew
what I had done or who I am
inside, like, they would know that I can't be
forgiven. That there's, like, kind of this
haunting sense of inadequacy that can,
(20:35):
like, play out in a lot of different ways
in the minds and
experiences of. Of us and of
our people. Like, do you have kind
of a sense of where these messages come from, how
people end up feeling this way?
>> Kyle Norman (20:52):
Um, I think some. Some of it. And some of the
people that I remember talking to, some of it is what
they've been taught. And they've been taught it
from, well, frankly, churches,
um, or they've been taught it from
religious family, um, members that
they grew up with. Um, there's this one person
(21:12):
who, for every infraction,
every mistake, um,
would wave their finger and say, God
will get you for that. Right. And so
they. And so they grew up
feeling that God is just this angry judge in the
sky with, you know, just
waiting just to write this divine ticket for every
(21:34):
little thing. And they. And they took that upon
themselves. I think another
area is, you know, we live
in a soundbite kind of world.
And the sound bite
culture of, um. An easy answer to
something is, I think, um, one of
the places where these things come out, right?
(21:57):
God is not picking on you. God is handpicking you
to bestow his glory. Well, wait, what does that
mean? Like, and all of these are just
band aids that we put onto the suffering of
others so that we don't have to deal with
it, Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I
think that's very True. I think
that the vulnerability,
um, of other people, if it's just a little too
front and center, can be way too
much of a reminder of our own
vulnerability. Um,
so I think that that's very cherry turned.
>> Kyle Norman (22:38):
Yeah, I think so. Right. I think that there is
that kind of understanding of,
um, we don't want to deal with the
stuff that is,
um, vulnerable, the
stuff that makes, um, us
feel uncomfortable. And so we kind of,
you know, placate everything under this
(23:01):
thin veneer of spirituality,
which doesn't actually
help in, you know, in any sort of way.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:12):
Yeah, I agree. Um, and, you
know, the other thing that I think about a lot is
that, like, churches by no means
have a monopoly on
making people feel inadequate and not good
enough. Like, that is,
you know, you talk about the sound bite culture, but,
like, just spend some time on social
(23:35):
media or ask, like, some of our kids who are
growing up in a social media age how
inadequate they feel on a regular basis, how much,
like, we are bombarded with
messages about all of the ways in
which we really could and should be
better.
>> Kyle Norman (23:52):
Oh, absolutely. Like, and it's a huge thing. I have
this little reflection, um, and it was a very
real, real thing, you know, as somebody who's on Facebook,
on somebody, you know, on Instagram,
realizing that Bobby Flay's cat has
more Instagram followers than me, like, this
celebrity chef's cat is killing it. And
I'm like, what? Like, and it's just so easy
(24:15):
because we live in a culture that
says, this is who you should be,
you know, and this is what you should be doing.
Um, that that kind of
message is ultimately
condemning. And because we
have built this world around
us that says this, how can we
(24:37):
not sometimes take those condemnations upon
ourselves? Um, and it's just.
And it's rife. It's everywhere.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:45):
I think it really is. And I think that to some
degree, and, you know, I could be wrong about this because I
didn't grow up in that version of the church at all.
Like, the angry judg in the sky version of the church I
didn't grow up in. So I don't know, like, how that
feels, uh, like, to grow up with that
message. But I wonder sometimes whether it is the more
(25:06):
insidious messages that, like,
just get baked into your
subconscious that are harder to talk
back to because you almost don't even realize
that they're there.
>> Kyle Norman (25:18):
Absolutely. And you don't realize they're there until
something comes and shakes you
up.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:25):
Yes.
>> Kyle Norman (25:25):
Right. And I didn't, like,
I Didn't know that,
you know, like, imposter syndrome is a thing for me. I'm a middle
child. I'm always comparing myself. Um,
and so, and that is something that I've kind of struggled
with. But I didn't know how deeply
there was this little voice that
(25:46):
connected God's judgment to those things
until all of a sudden I'm asking
like, if I was a better priest, would this not have happened
if I was a better husband? And, uh, I
didn't think I would ever ask those questions. But
all of a sudden those come rising up within me.
And again, that was part of the upheaval. And
(26:08):
it was just like, what is, what is going on
here?
Um, and then that really just kind of created,
um, like that was in 2015, we're now in
2025. That created a 10 year
journey of me wanting to explore and
write about this sense of
discouragement in faith
(26:30):
and wrestling in faith. And
what if actually the position of faith is
wrestling and it's in the wrestling that
we find that we actually are wrestling with a God who comes to
us. Right. Uh, and
doesn't just leave us, doesn't just push us to the side,
doesn't just wait till we have it all figured out, but, uh,
(26:51):
is actually the one who comes and dwells with us in that
moment.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:55):
Yeah. Yeah. That's so
beautiful.
So, like, do you feel, are there a
couple of key things that you think the church could
be doing that could
help toward this healthier faith that
could, you know, help people in their
discouragement and doubts and
inadequacy?
>> Kyle Norman (27:16):
Yeah, like, I think that,
you know, depending on how
you, um, where
you're asking that question from in terms of the church.
Right. So if you're asking from the position
of church leadership, one of the things that I think that
priests and pastors need to do is
we need to be vulnerable and we need to be honest.
(27:39):
We need to be able and not
this fake vulnerability,
this fake honesty that says, oh, back in the day,
well, that's when I was struggling, but now I have all the
answers. We need to be
willing to articulate.
I don't know what to do and I don't have the
answers. Um, and I need some help
(28:01):
for whatever is going on.
We need to be able to do that in order to
create that culture that allows
somebody to say, I hear
myself in that. And then therefore, then community
is built. Um, and then I think for the church,
you know, I don't want to talk about programs or anything like that,
(28:22):
but I do Think we need to develop the
capacity
to
sit with each other in
our struggles and
not, uh, and not rush
to the solutions. Uh, and not
always be quick
(28:45):
to
kind of lay out the pathway. Right.
To say, oh, well, I've had that too. And this is
how I went through it. And that might be true.
Fabulous.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:58):
Mhm.
>> Kyle Norman (28:58):
But.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:58):
Mhm.
>> Kyle Norman (28:59):
That can feel condemning. As
if, well, I've progressed. Um,
and when you progress too, then we will be able to chat
about that. Well, what does it look like for you
to sit in the ashes with that person?
Ah. And like Job's friends
before they started talking, just sit
(29:19):
there, not actually pose any
answers and just be there in care
and support. Because that's what people are wanting for. They
want to know they're not alone in whatever they're struggling
with. Uh, and then in the
midst of that,
uh, we grow in our
capacity to find God in the midst of that. So.
(29:41):
Yeah, so I think probably
vulnerability and honesty
in the midst of the church culture I think is a big
thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:52):
Yeah, I think it's a big thing too. And I think that you're right.
It can be, um, it can be
modeled from the pulpit.
I would add a little footnote though. I would just
say, like, as you know, I'm a writer
and um, there's
hardly a vulnerability that I haven't
articulated loud either,
(30:14):
like in sermons or in
writing or what have you. And you know, some of it's
like, not that pretty.
Um, like
there is an appetite for,
uh, pastors that
present as having it all figured out. Like
it can make people a little,
(30:36):
um, A little
squeamish. I think sometimes when,
um, that is named so
front and center. That's not to say I
don't fully agree with you, because I do. I
just think like, leaders
should be aware that it does
(30:57):
come with some risks.
>> Kyle Norman (30:58):
Well. And it comes from some risk. And what we should say is that we're
not talking about sensationalism. M. Either. Right. Like
there is. And we're not talking about
working out your own stuff in the midst of people.
Right. Like there is a way in which you
share your vulnerability in a
way which puts its eyes on you,
(31:21):
which is sensationalist or
in which you are using your
congregation as your therapist.
Right. And that. And that's unhealthy whatsoever.
Right. And so I think what we need to
do is it is a fine line
of saying we need to be honest and real about
(31:41):
struggles about, um,
hurts about our
insufficiencies about and
be. And struggles and be honest about that
also recognizing that in the
pastoral relationship, that naturally creates a certain
amount of boundaries, and we need to recognize what
(32:02):
those boundaries are and work within those boundaries for our
health, but also for their health, too. Like,
that's just a loving thing to do. Uh,
so there is a nuance there that
we need to recognize. You're right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:16):
Yeah. I think that those are some excellent guidelines.
And you're right. Like,
it's sort of, uh, a combination, I
think, of good boundaries and
common sense and a bit of
gut instinct.
>> Kyle Norman (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
So, um, I mean, the book
is so personal, but you talk about, like,
just some very universal,
uh, experiences as well. And I would say,
particularly, like, some universal
questions that I certainly
hear, like, time and time again
(32:55):
as a pastor, as a leader in the church,
that, you know, there's, like, very common
pitfalls for people spiritually.
And I like
how you get into these
pitfalls, um, drawing on
a bunch of different resources, like your own walk of
faith, the things that you learned through your wife's
(33:17):
illness, um, uh, the
resources of the Bible and of our
prayer life and of our worship life. Like, it
all. You kind of draw on all of it.
But I wonder whether we can just
talk about a few of these
questions and
maybe you can just share what you have learned
(33:38):
about what is helpful
in how we respond to these questions when they
come up, and maybe what's not
helpful. So,
um, you know, I think
the first one and the biggest one and the
most common one is like,
why is this happening to me? Like,
(34:00):
if God loves me, why would God do this to me?
Or, like, you know, I try to be a good person.
Like, how can this. Like,
uh, basically is like, they're no judge.
Justice.
>> Kyle Norman (34:13):
Uh, absolutely. You know,
I remember wrestling with those
questions in the midst of, you know, because
you ask those questions in the midst of sickness and death and all
that stuff. And so when my wife was going through cancer, I asked, why is
this happening? And it dawned on me, wait
a minute. If somebody were actually
(34:33):
say. To be able to say to me,
okay, Kyle, um, Alicia
got cancer because of this reason. This is
the reason, and this is how it's going to work out and all that
kind of stuff, would that actually make
it less painful?
No, like, that actually
(34:53):
wouldn't help me at all.
Um, I actually think it would make actually things worse. And
so I actually think that there is.
And hopefully people understand what I'm saying. Almost this beauty in
the fact that we don't get an answer.
Right. Because when we try to put an answer like
Job's friends, we're almost probably 100%
(35:15):
wrong. And so there's
this, you know, so it's wonderful that God doesn't give
us an answer. God's response is to
come to us. God gives us a presence.
Right. And so, you know,
nobody can, unfortunately. Why is this happening?
I can't say why this is happening. Um, but
(35:37):
what I can say, what I think the Bible says,
what I think that I've experienced is that in
the midst of that question and asking that
question, and as gut wrenching and visceral as
it is, uh, God meets us in
that, um, God meets that
question not with a rationale,
but with God's loving and
(35:59):
grace filled presence.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:02):
Yeah. So that move away from
like trying to litigate it
to like helping people be attentive to
God's presence.
>> Kyle Norman (36:11):
Yeah. And we can ask those questions. Job
asked those questions. The psalmists totally ask those
questions. So like, rip away Jesus
did.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:20):
Like, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
>> Kyle Norman (36:23):
Um, so ask away. Yell, scream, stomp
your feet, do all of that. That is a faithful
response. But we don't always
get the answers. And it's actually okay not to have the
answers because God gives us
God's, uh, presence.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:40):
Yeah, I like that. I like um,
giving tons of permission for those questions
to be part of faithful living,
um, but also the lack of answers to be part
of it too.
So I think the next refrain, uh, that
I hear a lot is pretty connected
(37:01):
to um, that piece around
being more attentive to the presence of God.
What if I can't feel God's love? What
if, like I hear other
people's spiritual experiences and they don't match up with
my own?
>> Kyle Norman (37:17):
Absolutely. And I actually had
someone. So the title of the
uh, of a chapter is what if I don't feel God's Love? And
somebody actually asked me that after a service.
Um, I, the service was done, I
preached, did the communion. The person came up to me
afterwards and said, kyle, do you always
experience God's love? Because I
(37:40):
don't. And
so what I articulated her in that
brief moment and what I tried to articulate in the chapter,
I have this phrase, God's love is a fact, not a
feeling. Like God's love is not the
equivalent of a schoolyard crush that
just makes us feel positive
and butterfly and Twitter painted all
(38:02):
the time. That's not what God's love is. God's, uh,
love is a fact of God's existence to
which we claim in boldness
that we are surrounded by God's love,
because that is what Jesus shows us now. I
think we can feel God's love. And the
closer we get to Jesus, the closer we get
(38:23):
to those times of feeling God's love. But
if we are in a season where it's
like, I'm just, I don't feel God's love in this moment
or whatever, then that
doesn't mean God's love is absent. The
lack of feeling doesn't denote the lack
of existence, because God's love is a fact of who
(38:43):
God is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:45):
Yeah, I like that. And,
you know, I think it's probably also related
to that culture change that
you name. Like, I think,
um, the more that people can share the
variety of ways in which they
experience God at work in their lives, experience
God's presence and love, I think the more that
(39:08):
that helps other people to find the
language that works for their experiences as well.
Like to say, it's not a cookie cutter
kind of thing. Right? Like, we don't all
experience God showing up in the same way.
>> Kyle Norman (39:23):
Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:27):
What about forgiveness? Uh, like,
what about people who think that they can't be
forgiven? How do you respond to that?
>> Kyle Norman (39:38):
When I've recently had that question, and
one of the things that I found myself reflecting on and
doing is
walking through them, the parable of the
unmerciful servant. And at least that
first part, and just the
dramaticness of
Jesus tells a story of the servant who owes
(40:00):
10,000 talents. Who. And I say,
just let's stop there.
Um, that the whole,
um, understanding of 10,000
talents in those days was 10,000 was the
biggest number. A talent was worth 20
years of wage. And so this servant
owed the master like an equivalent
(40:23):
of a gazillion dollars. Right.
And the whole point being, and what
Jesus is trying to say is that
forgiveness is uncalculable.
Right? And so there is nothing that we can
do to work ourselves
out of that forgiveness.
And, uh, it's just not a thing.
(40:45):
And, you know, theologians, sometimes we can
parse around what is the unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of
the Spirit, and what does that mean? And blah, blah,
blah. But if you're asking that question
out of a desire to really, you know, enter into
the forgiveness of God,
um, you're not
committing, you're not blaspheming the Spirit. So, like, let's
(41:08):
not even worry about that sometimes. Um,
I think what is
hardest in forgiveness is not being
forgiveness. Being forgiven
is accepting forgiveness is daring
to believe that that it's true. And
so I try to reframe it. I try to walk through that parable
and say, there is no, you know, forgiveness is
(41:30):
unlimited. It is always held out for us.
There is no sense in which that
forgiveness will be withheld. And so the question
isn't, you are unforgivable. The question
that we can talk about is, what does it mean for you to accept
it? And what does it mean for you to dare to
live in the midst of that? Um, and
(41:51):
then that just moves the conversation in a different
direction. Um, which,
which deals with struggles and
whatever was going on in their lives.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:04):
Yeah. Okay, let's do one
more. So I think this is also
a big one. Um, doubt. You
know, people. People will tell
me all the time that, uh,
that they're not very good Christians because they have lots of
doubts because, like, there are things that they don't understand
or things that they can't accept. Um, there are lots
(42:27):
of people who tell me that they're, you know, not
a, uh, believer at all because they,
you know, wrestle with certain
doctrines or proclamations.
So what's a helpful response to
people's doubt?
>> Kyle Norman (42:43):
Well, the helpful response is,
uh, is twofold. One
is we need to remember that
Israel is wrestling,
right? And so Israel is named Israel
because he wrestled with God. Right.
And so that sense of
(43:04):
wrestling with something we don't understand, wrestling with. Where
is God wrestling with? I don't get
this doctrine. That's actually a faithful
response. And so you
can lean into that. You can recognize
that you are faithful and still have some doubts.
And that's okay.
But then I also like to,
(43:26):
um, talk a little bit about
doubting Thomas. And,
you know, it's just one. I love doubting Thomas. We
give him a bad rap. Uh, but
it's unfairly. Unfairly, but it's an
amazing thing. So if you. And we're going to read the story just
after Easter, but, you
(43:46):
know, we all know the story. Thomas says, oh,
if I, you know, if. Unless I put the nails in my hands and blah, blah,
blah, and all this, I will not going to believe. And so we kind of lean
into that. But there's this little phrase in the text that
says, you know, after eight days, Jesus returns
and Thomas is amongst them.
Okay, wait, wait. So for eight days, for a whole
(44:06):
week, Thomas is in a place where he
doesn't know what to believe. And he doesn't believe in the
resurrection and he doesn't get it, and he doesn't understand how all
this works out, but he
is willing to journey with a community.
As they talk about the story, as
they sing the hymns, as they pray for
(44:27):
each other, and Thomas is there saying, I don't get
it, but he's willing to journey
with them. And then at some point in the
journey, he meets the risen Lord.
And um, so just because you have a
doubt, and it might even be a big
doubt again, that doesn't mean you have to
separate yourself from the community, keep
(44:50):
a part of the community. And it might actually be in the midst
of the. Might not take eight days, it might take a
little bit longer. Right. But in the midst of that
community, as you, as you sing the community
songs, as you join with the people and as you listen to the
stories, it might be in that
context that you meet the risen Lord
(45:10):
as opposed to, I'm going to
leave and be by myself.
And then once again, and once I figure it out,
then I'll come back. Uh, it might actually
be in that place that you meet the risen Lord and you
find the answer that you're looking for.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:27):
Yeah. And you know, I think further to that,
like, I think we really need to frame in the
context of community the gift of doubt.
Because like, if it, like when
communities get like way too hyped
up on certainty, like
that can result in a
lot of hysteria and
(45:50):
um, like bad behavior
and so on. Like that gift of belief
and doubt all sort of working
itself out in discernment in a community like
Thomas plays, ah, an important
role in the
post resurrection days of
(46:10):
like, okay, what is this? Like, what
is going on here? Like, that's a really important question.
Did everybody just have a collective
delusion or like, is there something real
here? So,
yeah, um, I think
framing that communally and framing that
scripturally is so important.
>> Kyle Norman (46:32):
Well, and for the church community as well, church going like,
so Thomas does believe my Lord and my God,
but then it's not all roses. After that, the community still
struggled. They still had to
work really hard against all sorts of things
that they never thought they'd have to deal with and try to figure
it out. Circumcision versus
(46:52):
uncircumcision, barbarians at the end, like
all of this kind of stuff. And some
places they did very, very well. And some
places they had to work really hard to maintain
the community. And so articulating the
gamut of doubt and struggle within the
Christian experience as a whole, I
(47:12):
think is important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:16):
Yeah, I think that is
absolutely true. And you know, I think that
can be very much in the
category of discouragement, spiritual
discouragement, if people Think that
they're gonna have this moment
of clarity, this moment of revelation,
(47:36):
um, that is just gonna settle
everything. And like then you've arrived,
like then everything is figured out. Uh, like we never
get to just arrive. We always are, uh, a work
in progress.
>> Kyle Norman (47:48):
Absolutely. And that's a, and that's a
beautiful thing. But also we need to
articulate that that means that we're always
moving into, in some sense another place of
uncertainty. Right. And as we
need to figure out. Okay, so where does my life with
God? What does that mean in this new
place?
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know,
being clear about expectations is,
is really important.
So what has changed for you most as a
church leader through this 10 year
journey through writing this book? What's
the biggest takeaway for you?
>> Kyle Norman (48:29):
I think for me, the biggest
takeaway for me is
I feel like I lead more from the heart than the
head now. Um,
and yeah, you know,
I like that at the beginning I really appreciated that
you said that the book is a pastoral book and you said
(48:51):
that there's a lot of heart in it. And that makes me
feel good because I think, not that I was this
overly heady person, however, but I can find
it easy just to live in my head.
And so I
think I have grown in my
capacity to
be that heart
(49:14):
filled presence for a
person rather
than the learned
theologian, if that makes
sense. And so I think I've grown in that capacity and
I think that's only made me a better
preacher. I think it's made me a better pastor
and I think it makes. It makes me a better priest.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:38):
Yeah. Like the word that's coming to mind for me,
and I may or may not be using it correctly, is just
empathy. Like that.
It seems to me that there's a big part of this journey
that, um, just
found you walking a lot more closely
with people's lived experiences.
>> Kyle Norman (49:59):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And engaging.
And engaging my faith, like there was an inner
transformation that happened within me as well. So
engaging my faith in a whole
different way. And
not that I didn't have my personal relationship with Jesus
before, but it's, I would say
it's, it's stronger, it's maybe more else
(50:22):
I would maybe say it's more intense, but it's also
more personal,
uh, more
emotive now than
um, before.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:35):
So the corollary to that
question is what would you want the
biggest takeaway to be for the church? What
would you most like the
church to be communicating?
>> Kyle Norman (50:49):
That's a good question.
You know, I
recognize so in this moment.
I recognize that
there's a lot of anxiety in
(51:10):
the. In the Western world. You know,
I. We're in Canada. Um, your listeners are probably
some in the States as well, and I have friends in the
States, and, like, tensions are
ramped up. And I
think it's tempting
on each side for the
churches
(51:33):
to articulate a
position. Right. To articulate something
that we can say that will make it make
sense and help us navigate this.
And what I just. What I'm feeling in this
moment is
perhaps the place
is to be is not
(51:55):
articulating, again, the
right answer, the right position,
but
just articulating that
anxiety and what people are
feeling and saying
it's okay to feel that way, and God meets us
in this place, and
(52:18):
let's pray from that place.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:21):
Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think,
um, just being attentive
to that desire in
times of anxiety and uncertainty to be
the strong leader, to be the one with the
answers to, you know, have
some magic bullets for people.
Um, I think just articulating
(52:44):
that particular pitfall does make it
easier to live in the tension,
to pray from the tension, to look for the
presence of God. I think that's super
important.
Okay, so the book is
alive, loved, and free. I highly
recommend it. How can people get their
(53:06):
hands on this book?
>> Kyle Norman (53:07):
Book? Uh, you can get it
by, um, going on to Amazon ca.
So it's published through KDP and Amazon,
and so that is really the only place that you can
get it. It's available in paperback, uh, but also
in Kindle.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:23):
Awesome. Uh, okay, well, we're going to take a quick break. We're
going to come back for some closing question.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am with the very Reverend Kyle
Norman, and we're going to wrap up with some
closing questions. Now, Kyle, these are questions that we
(53:44):
ask all of our guests, and we always
tell them that you are welcome to take
these questions as seriously as you want
or not.
>> Kyle Norman (53:53):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:53):
Okay.
>> Kyle Norman (53:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:56):
So, Kyle, if you were pope for the
day, what would that 24 hours
entail?
>> Kyle Norman (54:04):
Well, it would definitely be riding around in the popemobile.
Like, I would. I would hit a drive through. Honestly, I would
do that. Uh,
I think if I was pope for a day, I would
want to try to get
together some Christian
leaders and just say, brass
(54:24):
tacks. Our divisions
are not helpful. How can we work
together? And just, um, let's
have those conversations.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:35):
All right. In the Pope Mobile, maybe in the.
>> Kyle Norman (54:37):
Popemobile as we go through McDonald's. I don't know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:42):
Well, that could be the hook. You know, the
invitation comes with
exactly the drive through in
the Popemobile. How could anybody resist?
>> Kyle Norman (54:52):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:55):
Okay. Who is a, uh, theologian or
historical Christian figure that you would want to
meet, have a meal with, bring back to
life?
>> Kyle Norman (55:04):
Well, what I would, uh, there's
so many, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
I would. Because
I think
what he articulated in his
life in terms of
(55:25):
state, um, state religion and how it
was responding to oppression and
violence and autocracy and all
that stuff is what we are seeing today. And so if
there's anybody who could help peel
back the onion layers a little bit,
I would say here's a beer, go
(55:46):
right. And just have a chat with him.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:49):
Yeah, yeah. I would say that
answer has been coming up a little bit more
lately, and I do think that it is
a measure of the time and space that we're in right
now.
What are your hopes? Oh, sorry. What will history
remember from, uh, this current time and place?
>> Kyle Norman (56:10):
Ooh, I think
history will.
I think history will remember the rise and fall of social
media. I
think. You know, um, what was it like?
TikTok was canceled for 24 hours and
(56:31):
people went nuts. And so
I think, I think from the standpoint of, um, a hundred
years from now, or 200 when they look back, I think it's
going to be social media is a thing, but I think it's
going to, it's going to rise and it's going to come crashing down
or replaced by something new. And I think
that's what people are going to remember.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:52):
Okay, interesting. Yeah.
Uh, what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity? For the future of the church?
>> Kyle Norman (57:03):
My hopes for the future of the
church is
a, uh, growth in
vibrant but
smaller churches. Right.
(57:23):
So I think God's vision for the church is not
global denomination. Right. I think God's
vision is not where every church is a megachurch.
I think God's vision is small
pockets of Christians
gathering together in vibrancy and
passion. Uh, and that might be
100 people here and 50 here and
(57:45):
maybe 200 here and all that stuff. But
smaller yet more connected, authentic
and vibrant Christian communities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:54):
Beautiful. Kyle, where can
people find more about you?
>> Kyle Norman (58:00):
So I have a website which is
www.revkylenorman.ca.
so that's where you can find me. Um,
and then if you are in the Kamloops
area, then you can just show up at St. Paul's Cathedral
and I'm there every Sunday. So,
uh, those are kind of the places that you can find me. And you know, I'm on
(58:20):
TikTok and I'm on, uh, Facebook, so you
can Google Reverend Kyle Norman and you'll find
me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:27):
And the Kamloops area is quite
scenic, right? Like, it's quite beautiful, isn't it?
>> Kyle Norman (58:32):
Yeah, uh, it's great. We got, um, we have hills.
We're surrounded within about half an hour, about an
hour drive. I don't know, something like 300
lakes. Like it. It is a beautiful
environment. And so, yeah, if you're coming
up, um, Vancouver's great,
but Kamloops is where it's at. So
come to Kamloops.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:53):
Okay. So come for the scenery. Stay
for a conversation with me. Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Kyle Norman (58:57):
Ah, exactly. Definitely. There you go.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:00):
Sounds good. Okay. Well, I so
appreciate your time today and this conversation
and this book. We always end with the word of
peace, so may the peace of the Lord be always
with you, Kyle.
>> Kyle Norman (59:12):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (59:20):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(59:42):
do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
>> Loren (00:45):
Today, Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Reverend Kyle
Norman to the show. Kyle is a
priest, author and speaker. He holds a bachelor's
degree in philosophy, a master's in divinity,
and a doctorate in spiritual formation. He
currently lives in Kamloops, British Columbia with his wife
and son. Currently, Kyle is The rector of
(01:06):
St Paul's Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of
the People. Kyle is also the author of
Alive, Loved and Finding Jesus When
Faith is Hard, which tackles the tricky issues of
feeling discouraged in our faith. As
always, please take a moment to.
>> Loren Richmond (01:21):
Rate and review the show and share.
>> Loren (01:24):
Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with
Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
Thanks so much for joining us as.
>> Loren Richmond (01:31):
We faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your
host for today's episode, Martha
Tatarnic And I'm so very happy to be joined
today by the Very Reverend Kyle
Norman. We are fellow
colleagues in the Anglican Church of Canada.
I don't think that we have actually met in
person, but we have talked over the years
(02:06):
and, uh, had some, um. Fun
church nerd moments.
>> Kyle Norman (02:10):
Exactly. Yes. I don't. We haven't, um. Yeah, no, we
haven't met in person, but I've always enjoyed
chatting with you when we get to geek out over stuff. So it's
my pleasure to be here. So thank you very much for having
me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:23):
All right, well, we have some exciting things to talk
about today, namely your brand new
book, uh, Alive, Loved
and Free. But we're going to get to that in a moment
because it's important to just give
our listeners, our audience, a sense
of who you are and, uh, what you're about.
So, Kyle, maybe you can share
(02:45):
with all of us a little bit about your faith journey,
what that has looked like in the past and what that
looks like now.
>> Kyle Norman (02:52):
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up in
the Anglican Church. Ah. My first
memories were sitting in the front of the church, uh,
reading the liturgical book. So before Sunday
school, I would see how far I could get before I had to go
down. Uh, and so it was always.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:09):
That really says a lot I have to say.
>> Kyle Norman (03:12):
Yeah, exactly. Um, and so just grew
up in the church and spent some time as a youth worker.
Had the call to ministry when I was in grade 10,
um, and then seminary and I was
in a church in the B.C. then I was 13 years in
Calgary and have now moved into
being the rector of St Paul's
(03:32):
Cathedral and the dean of the
diocese. So I have quite the
complicated role but I get to talk with a
wide variety of people in the church.
Ministers, uh, both um, lay and
ordain new um members
joining the Anglican Church, um, and some of
our rural areas just going to the church that's there.
(03:55):
And so it's quite a unique kind of thing.
So uh, it's been a fun ride so
far.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:02):
Okay, well just a couple of uh, little follow
up things about what you just shared. It's
amazing how many people get their
call in that age range. It was the same for
me. I was 15, it was grade
10. Um, and I've
talked to so many people that it's that age,
it's 15. Um, and not just like call
(04:24):
to ministry but like call to
a variety of like vocations.
So I just had to comment on that because I find
it remarkable. And then because our
listeners aren't uh, you know, all Anglican or
even primarily Anglican.
Can you just say a little bit more about what that
role of dean is? Because not everybody
(04:45):
would know what that title ah is.
>> Kyle Norman (04:48):
Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So the dean in
the Anglican context is
um, so it's an area role. So we are
headed by a bishop and the bishop is the
senior pastor amongst the pastors and the one who
kind of heads up the diocese.
And the dean is kind of like the second in command.
(05:09):
And so I help the bishop um,
navigate the complexity of ministry in the
diocese. And so um, we have
about 14 parishes and
31 different congregations in the territory of the people
where I am it's a smaller diocese and
so I help, I deal with the clergy, I help
(05:30):
manage conflicts if they arrive
or maybe we should say when they arrive.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:35):
Yeah, when.
>> Kyle Norman (05:37):
And uh, then I, yeah so
I aid the bishop, um, and I
take some things that I can do so that she
is freed up to do only the things that the bishop can
do.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:50):
Okay, that's great. That's just helpful for our
listeners to kind of have a sense of how our
Anglican polity works.
>> Kyle Norman (05:57):
Yes, exactly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:59):
So Kyle, is there a spiritual practice that, uh,
you're finding particularly meaningful right now,
particularly as you navigate those
various roles and, uh, leadership.
>> Kyle Norman (06:11):
Yeah. I have always been
a fan of morning prayer.
Um, and um, like again, as an
Anglican, from the liturgical book, so not just praying in the
morning, but doing this daily
office. And so, um, that's
always been kind of sustaining for
(06:31):
me. And it goes up and down depending on the
busyness in the seasons. But it
really helps me to
be able to do that, um, in
the morning before I go to my phone, before I check my
emails, before I do anything, to be able to
go and sit down and
(06:51):
engage in this time of
prayer. Um, it helps settles
me and it helps prepare me for what I
might be facing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:03):
Well, um, one of the things that I love
about doing this podcast is noting those
connections, like, across the various
conversations that we have and uh,
especially because we have conversations
across a variety of denominations. I have said this
so many times that I feel like I'm beginning to sound like,
(07:23):
uh, an advertisement for the daily office.
But so many people name that
as like the practice that is
grounding and like connecting for
them and not just Anglicans. Like, I find it totally
remarkable.
>> Kyle Norman (07:39):
It's fabulous. Part of my, when, uh, I did
my doctorate, part of my doctoral research was taking a group
of people and leading them in morning
prayer for ten weeks.
Um, in this research study I had to do. And by week
three or four, the majority of
them had said, this is a
(07:59):
defining practice of my life. That, that
I, that is, um, one person
said morning prayer has hacked my
morning. Right. Because it just, it reframed
everything. Right. And so it's, it's really a
powerful activity.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:16):
So future Christian listeners, if you
haven't tried the daily office, it might
be something to really consider because I,
I think that this is a, a message that we
keep getting across our various guests.
It's pretty cool.
>> Kyle Norman (08:31):
Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:34):
Okay, so like I said at the beginning, we are here
to talk about your brand new book
called Alive, Loved and
Free. And um, I
am really grateful that you sent me an advance copy.
I had an opportunity to read it. It is such a
personal book and it is such a pastoral
book. Like, it is just
(08:56):
like exploding with heart for
God's people is how I would define
it. So maybe you
can just get us into uh, the
premise of the book, especially like, what prompted
you're writing it.
>> Kyle Norman (09:11):
Yeah, so what?
So the book follows my
journey of dealing
with, um, or going through a period
of time which was the hardest kind of
spiritual time that I've ever Been a part of dealing, um,
with my wife's cancer diagnosis and
(09:31):
subsequent, um, chemotherapy
and all of that. And I'm very, very clear that this
is my story as. As
priest and as caregiver. It's not her story.
Um, she gets to tell her story.
Um, and I'm also clear, like, I had the better deal of
this, right? Like, she had chemotherapy and
(09:52):
nausea and hair loss. And, you
know, I struggled with prayer,
like, but, you know, I
was unprepared for
the. Just the amount
of spiritual upheaval I would end up
in, um, having to walk with my wife through
this. I talked about morning prayer, and I just.
(10:15):
I couldn't pray. Like, my. That
liturgy just dried up.
And, um, I had such a hard
time dealing with everything
that m. It really changed the
way that I understand
ministry and how to pastor people in
(10:36):
the midst of this
seemingly difficult time in their lives.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:44):
Okay. So it was really, like, a matter
of, like, the rubber hitting
the road for you in terms of things that
maybe had been theoretical or, like, at
a distance and suddenly or living it, uh, is
that fair to say?
>> Kyle Norman (11:00):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um,
you know, like, it's easy. So my wife is
diagnosed on Maundy Thursday. And so part of this is
also, like, part of the book takes my
journey and my struggles and pairs it with the
great three days. So Maundy Thursday, Good
Friday, and Holy Saturday. And that's how I structure the book.
(11:21):
But, yeah, up until that point,
you know, I could make my solemn
meditations on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday from
the ease of my seat. Right. And it
was all very, you know, theological and
biblical and, oh, it's so great. But it was very
easy. Um, and then in the midst of that
(11:41):
time, feeling just
almost probably for the first time, feeling this
visceral, I have no clue what to
do, and I have no clue where God is in the
midst of this. Um, and
so very, very personal.
And because we don't always talk about
these kind of things in the church, um, in any
(12:04):
sort of. Kind of real way,
um, again, was completely unprepared
for, um, what was coming.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:13):
Yeah. So let's take that apart a little bit
more. Um,
um, like,
what are the things that we're missing? Like, certainly
we have a faith and a tradition
that, you know, keeps, like, our mortality
and the frailty of life quite
viscerally in front of us. Uh, we're recording this the day
(12:33):
after Ash Wednesday, which, um,
you know, like, we get to show up and be
told you're gonna die.
So.
>> Kyle Norman (12:43):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:43):
Yeah. Yeah, here's some ashes.
It's, uh, not gonna last. Right.
Like, we do, we have a lot of
honesty in our tradition that I think is, like,
quite in contrast to the world
around us, um, which has a bit
of an allergy to talking about
aging and, um,
(13:06):
frailty and death. So, like,
what. What would you identify as kind of the
missing pieces? Uh,
uh, like in.
In what we're not talking about and. And how we're
not kind of engaging people.
>> Kyle Norman (13:23):
Well, and that's. And that's. I think it's hard to.
It's hard to pick apart in some sense. You know,
it's. I know that for myself, part
of my struggle was that I
had adopted a
personality that. And maybe because, you
know, because I'm the priest, that I have to
have everything put together right, and I
(13:45):
have to have the answers, and I have to be okay. And
so when people say, kyle, how are you doing? I
just say, fine. Right.
And, um. And I think, you know, I brought that in as
the priest, but I think so
often we. We
cultivate that in the community as well. That the
community is the place that the church, you know,
(14:07):
even though we disagree with it and we know theologically
it's not the case, but we, like, in
practical terms, I think sometimes the
community develops this attitude that this is the place to
go when you have all the answers figured out
and everything's okay. Um, and
you can sit in the pew with the people that are like you.
(14:28):
And when people ask you, how are you doing? All they
want is, I'm fine. And so when
people come up against something, and
I'm sure, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure that you have found this
as well. People enter into a time
of discouragement or struggle, and they
say, I have to leave the
church. And once I figure it all out,
(14:50):
well, then I'll come back. Well, nine times out
of ten, they don't. Right. And so,
um, rather than the church being this
place, this gathering place,
where it's okay not to be okay and
it's okay to articulate that
and why we've developed that
attitude, I'm not exactly sure, you know,
(15:13):
but I do know that there needs to be a willingness
to. To articulate
those deep hurts of the soul and
those deep discouragements,
um, And.
And build a culture that says
that these are the places in which we might
actually find community more,
(15:36):
but also find God in the midst of
it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there definitely is
a real strain of Christian thought
and culture around,
um, you know, the strength of
your faith, uh, being
measured kind of by an absence of doubt.
Your faith is strong enough to move mountains. You're
(16:03):
not gonna acknowledge the possibility that
it's not gonna work out or that you don't
have everything figured out. I mean, I think that
can be a part of Christian culture. I
think maybe also what you're
naming is, in our
Anglican tradition, there can be,
(16:23):
ah, a politeness to
our church culture, ah,
like a reserved, um,
kind of nature to our church culture that
people do want to present
as having things
together.
>> Kyle Norman (16:41):
Um, I think so. And that's part of why I
wanted to write the book.
Right. Is, um, in every church that
I've been a part of, and
I'm 22 years into ministry, and I've been in
various different churches, from rural churches to an urban church and
now to a cathedral, um, and I have met
faithful Christian men and women, um,
(17:02):
who deep within, carry a certain
amount of shame or
guilt because they feel they're doing it
wrong. Right. Because they hear.
They read in books or they hear in a sermon
that God answers prayer, and
they think, well, I've never had God answer
one of my prayers. Or, you know, this person
(17:25):
talks so passionately about feeling the love of
Jesus, and. But I don't know if I've ever felt the love of
Jesus. And so there must be some. And these are people who have
sat in the same Pew for 30 years.
Right. And so what I wanted to do was
articulate that this kind of sense of
Pollyanna, uh, everything is okay,
(17:45):
um, is not actually the biblical understanding of faith at
all. Um, and we need to be
honest about that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:53):
And you figured that out in a very
personal way. Yeah. Um,
Yeah, I think that sense of inadequacy can be
really rife. And I hear it a lot
around prayer, especially that people kind of feel
like everybody else understands how to pray. But,
like, it feels
(18:14):
not straightforward for me. Right.
>> Kyle Norman (18:17):
Like, yeah, absolutely. I remember,
um, and this was probably just maybe
two years or so before, um,
Alicia's diagnosis, um,
and just kind of recognizing
nobody had ever actually taught me to pray.
Like, Right. In terms of, like, I could say
(18:39):
the words and. But it was kind of assumed,
you know, you'll figure it out. All through university,
all through Sunday school, all through
seminary, nobody had kind of said, let's
really talk about what
prayer is in this kind of internal way.
And let's talk about what it means to, you know, to
pray our supplications. But let's also talk
(19:02):
about lamentations and how that is a
really Authentic way, like, you can
scream and you can yell and you can do all of that.
Um, and so I had done a lot of
reading, which I think was very
preparatory and, you know, and very kind of
well timed divinely
for what I was going to be heading into.
(19:24):
Um, but that didn't take away the visceralness
of being in those places at that time.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:31):
Yeah, Yeah, I can appreciate that.
So, um, connected to,
like, that sense of inadequacy.
And
I think that feeling, that
kind of scared feeling a lot of people can have about,
like, yeah, maybe their faith
(19:52):
doesn't measure up to
what is expected or what others,
um, have experienced. You
share a lot of other stories
that I think are very much related to this, of
people who have come to believe that
they're, like, just not worthy of God's
(20:12):
love. Um, that they're not good enough,
that their faith isn't good enough. That can also be
connected to forgiveness. And, like, maybe
other people can be forgiven, but if they knew
what I had done or who I am
inside, like, they would know that I can't be
forgiven. That there's, like, kind of this
haunting sense of inadequacy that can,
(20:35):
like, play out in a lot of different ways
in the minds and
experiences of. Of us and of
our people. Like, do you have kind
of a sense of where these messages come from, how
people end up feeling this way?
>> Kyle Norman (20:52):
Um, I think some. Some of it. And some of the
people that I remember talking to, some of it is what
they've been taught. And they've been taught it
from, well, frankly, churches,
um, or they've been taught it from
religious family, um, members that
they grew up with. Um, there's this one person
(21:12):
who, for every infraction,
every mistake, um,
would wave their finger and say, God
will get you for that. Right. And so
they. And so they grew up
feeling that God is just this angry judge in the
sky with, you know, just
waiting just to write this divine ticket for every
(21:34):
little thing. And they. And they took that upon
themselves. I think another
area is, you know, we live
in a soundbite kind of world.
And the sound bite
culture of, um. An easy answer to
something is, I think, um, one of
the places where these things come out, right?
(21:57):
God is not picking on you. God is handpicking you
to bestow his glory. Well, wait, what does that
mean? Like, and all of these are just
band aids that we put onto the suffering of
others so that we don't have to deal with
it, Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:13):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I
think that's very True. I think
that the vulnerability,
um, of other people, if it's just a little too
front and center, can be way too
much of a reminder of our own
vulnerability. Um,
so I think that that's very cherry turned.
>> Kyle Norman (22:38):
Yeah, I think so. Right. I think that there is
that kind of understanding of,
um, we don't want to deal with the
stuff that is,
um, vulnerable, the
stuff that makes, um, us
feel uncomfortable. And so we kind of,
you know, placate everything under this
(23:01):
thin veneer of spirituality,
which doesn't actually
help in, you know, in any sort of way.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:12):
Yeah, I agree. Um, and, you
know, the other thing that I think about a lot is
that, like, churches by no means
have a monopoly on
making people feel inadequate and not good
enough. Like, that is,
you know, you talk about the sound bite culture, but,
like, just spend some time on social
(23:35):
media or ask, like, some of our kids who are
growing up in a social media age how
inadequate they feel on a regular basis, how much,
like, we are bombarded with
messages about all of the ways in
which we really could and should be
better.
>> Kyle Norman (23:52):
Oh, absolutely. Like, and it's a huge thing. I have
this little reflection, um, and it was a very
real, real thing, you know, as somebody who's on Facebook,
on somebody, you know, on Instagram,
realizing that Bobby Flay's cat has
more Instagram followers than me, like, this
celebrity chef's cat is killing it. And
I'm like, what? Like, and it's just so easy
(24:15):
because we live in a culture that
says, this is who you should be,
you know, and this is what you should be doing.
Um, that that kind of
message is ultimately
condemning. And because we
have built this world around
us that says this, how can we
(24:37):
not sometimes take those condemnations upon
ourselves? Um, and it's just.
And it's rife. It's everywhere.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:45):
I think it really is. And I think that to some
degree, and, you know, I could be wrong about this because I
didn't grow up in that version of the church at all.
Like, the angry judg in the sky version of the church I
didn't grow up in. So I don't know, like, how that
feels, uh, like, to grow up with that
message. But I wonder sometimes whether it is the more
(25:06):
insidious messages that, like,
just get baked into your
subconscious that are harder to talk
back to because you almost don't even realize
that they're there.
>> Kyle Norman (25:18):
Absolutely. And you don't realize they're there until
something comes and shakes you
up.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:25):
Yes.
>> Kyle Norman (25:25):
Right. And I didn't, like,
I Didn't know that,
you know, like, imposter syndrome is a thing for me. I'm a middle
child. I'm always comparing myself. Um,
and so, and that is something that I've kind of struggled
with. But I didn't know how deeply
there was this little voice that
(25:46):
connected God's judgment to those things
until all of a sudden I'm asking
like, if I was a better priest, would this not have happened
if I was a better husband? And, uh, I
didn't think I would ever ask those questions. But
all of a sudden those come rising up within me.
And again, that was part of the upheaval. And
(26:08):
it was just like, what is, what is going on
here?
Um, and then that really just kind of created,
um, like that was in 2015, we're now in
2025. That created a 10 year
journey of me wanting to explore and
write about this sense of
discouragement in faith
(26:30):
and wrestling in faith. And
what if actually the position of faith is
wrestling and it's in the wrestling that
we find that we actually are wrestling with a God who comes to
us. Right. Uh, and
doesn't just leave us, doesn't just push us to the side,
doesn't just wait till we have it all figured out, but, uh,
(26:51):
is actually the one who comes and dwells with us in that
moment.
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:55):
Yeah. Yeah. That's so
beautiful.
So, like, do you feel, are there a
couple of key things that you think the church could
be doing that could
help toward this healthier faith that
could, you know, help people in their
discouragement and doubts and
inadequacy?
>> Kyle Norman (27:16):
Yeah, like, I think that,
you know, depending on how
you, um, where
you're asking that question from in terms of the church.
Right. So if you're asking from the position
of church leadership, one of the things that I think that
priests and pastors need to do is
we need to be vulnerable and we need to be honest.
(27:39):
We need to be able and not
this fake vulnerability,
this fake honesty that says, oh, back in the day,
well, that's when I was struggling, but now I have all the
answers. We need to be
willing to articulate.
I don't know what to do and I don't have the
answers. Um, and I need some help
(28:01):
for whatever is going on.
We need to be able to do that in order to
create that culture that allows
somebody to say, I hear
myself in that. And then therefore, then community
is built. Um, and then I think for the church,
you know, I don't want to talk about programs or anything like that,
(28:22):
but I do Think we need to develop the
capacity
to
sit with each other in
our struggles and
not, uh, and not rush
to the solutions. Uh, and not
always be quick
(28:45):
to
kind of lay out the pathway. Right.
To say, oh, well, I've had that too. And this is
how I went through it. And that might be true.
Fabulous.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:58):
Mhm.
>> Kyle Norman (28:58):
But.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:58):
Mhm.
>> Kyle Norman (28:59):
That can feel condemning. As
if, well, I've progressed. Um,
and when you progress too, then we will be able to chat
about that. Well, what does it look like for you
to sit in the ashes with that person?
Ah. And like Job's friends
before they started talking, just sit
(29:19):
there, not actually pose any
answers and just be there in care
and support. Because that's what people are wanting for. They
want to know they're not alone in whatever they're struggling
with. Uh, and then in the
midst of that,
uh, we grow in our
capacity to find God in the midst of that. So.
(29:41):
Yeah, so I think probably
vulnerability and honesty
in the midst of the church culture I think is a big
thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:52):
Yeah, I think it's a big thing too. And I think that you're right.
It can be, um, it can be
modeled from the pulpit.
I would add a little footnote though. I would just
say, like, as you know, I'm a writer
and um, there's
hardly a vulnerability that I haven't
articulated loud either,
(30:14):
like in sermons or in
writing or what have you. And you know, some of it's
like, not that pretty.
Um, like
there is an appetite for,
uh, pastors that
present as having it all figured out. Like
it can make people a little,
(30:36):
um, A little
squeamish. I think sometimes when,
um, that is named so
front and center. That's not to say I
don't fully agree with you, because I do. I
just think like, leaders
should be aware that it does
(30:57):
come with some risks.
>> Kyle Norman (30:58):
Well. And it comes from some risk. And what we should say is that we're
not talking about sensationalism. M. Either. Right. Like
there is. And we're not talking about
working out your own stuff in the midst of people.
Right. Like there is a way in which you
share your vulnerability in a
way which puts its eyes on you,
(31:21):
which is sensationalist or
in which you are using your
congregation as your therapist.
Right. And that. And that's unhealthy whatsoever.
Right. And so I think what we need to
do is it is a fine line
of saying we need to be honest and real about
(31:41):
struggles about, um,
hurts about our
insufficiencies about and
be. And struggles and be honest about that
also recognizing that in the
pastoral relationship, that naturally creates a certain
amount of boundaries, and we need to recognize what
(32:02):
those boundaries are and work within those boundaries for our
health, but also for their health, too. Like,
that's just a loving thing to do. Uh,
so there is a nuance there that
we need to recognize. You're right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:16):
Yeah. I think that those are some excellent guidelines.
And you're right. Like,
it's sort of, uh, a combination, I
think, of good boundaries and
common sense and a bit of
gut instinct.
>> Kyle Norman (32:31):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
So, um, I mean, the book
is so personal, but you talk about, like,
just some very universal,
uh, experiences as well. And I would say,
particularly, like, some universal
questions that I certainly
hear, like, time and time again
(32:55):
as a pastor, as a leader in the church,
that, you know, there's, like, very common
pitfalls for people spiritually.
And I like
how you get into these
pitfalls, um, drawing on
a bunch of different resources, like your own walk of
faith, the things that you learned through your wife's
(33:17):
illness, um, uh, the
resources of the Bible and of our
prayer life and of our worship life. Like, it
all. You kind of draw on all of it.
But I wonder whether we can just
talk about a few of these
questions and
maybe you can just share what you have learned
(33:38):
about what is helpful
in how we respond to these questions when they
come up, and maybe what's not
helpful. So,
um, you know, I think
the first one and the biggest one and the
most common one is like,
why is this happening to me? Like,
(34:00):
if God loves me, why would God do this to me?
Or, like, you know, I try to be a good person.
Like, how can this. Like,
uh, basically is like, they're no judge.
Justice.
>> Kyle Norman (34:13):
Uh, absolutely. You know,
I remember wrestling with those
questions in the midst of, you know, because
you ask those questions in the midst of sickness and death and all
that stuff. And so when my wife was going through cancer, I asked, why is
this happening? And it dawned on me, wait
a minute. If somebody were actually
(34:33):
say. To be able to say to me,
okay, Kyle, um, Alicia
got cancer because of this reason. This is
the reason, and this is how it's going to work out and all that
kind of stuff, would that actually make
it less painful?
No, like, that actually
(34:53):
wouldn't help me at all.
Um, I actually think it would make actually things worse. And
so I actually think that there is.
And hopefully people understand what I'm saying. Almost this beauty in
the fact that we don't get an answer.
Right. Because when we try to put an answer like
Job's friends, we're almost probably 100%
(35:15):
wrong. And so there's
this, you know, so it's wonderful that God doesn't give
us an answer. God's response is to
come to us. God gives us a presence.
Right. And so, you know,
nobody can, unfortunately. Why is this happening?
I can't say why this is happening. Um, but
(35:37):
what I can say, what I think the Bible says,
what I think that I've experienced is that in
the midst of that question and asking that
question, and as gut wrenching and visceral as
it is, uh, God meets us in
that, um, God meets that
question not with a rationale,
but with God's loving and
(35:59):
grace filled presence.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:02):
Yeah. So that move away from
like trying to litigate it
to like helping people be attentive to
God's presence.
>> Kyle Norman (36:11):
Yeah. And we can ask those questions. Job
asked those questions. The psalmists totally ask those
questions. So like, rip away Jesus
did.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:20):
Like, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
>> Kyle Norman (36:23):
Um, so ask away. Yell, scream, stomp
your feet, do all of that. That is a faithful
response. But we don't always
get the answers. And it's actually okay not to have the
answers because God gives us
God's, uh, presence.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:40):
Yeah, I like that. I like um,
giving tons of permission for those questions
to be part of faithful living,
um, but also the lack of answers to be part
of it too.
So I think the next refrain, uh, that
I hear a lot is pretty connected
(37:01):
to um, that piece around
being more attentive to the presence of God.
What if I can't feel God's love? What
if, like I hear other
people's spiritual experiences and they don't match up with
my own?
>> Kyle Norman (37:17):
Absolutely. And I actually had
someone. So the title of the
uh, of a chapter is what if I don't feel God's Love? And
somebody actually asked me that after a service.
Um, I, the service was done, I
preached, did the communion. The person came up to me
afterwards and said, kyle, do you always
experience God's love? Because I
(37:40):
don't. And
so what I articulated her in that
brief moment and what I tried to articulate in the chapter,
I have this phrase, God's love is a fact, not a
feeling. Like God's love is not the
equivalent of a schoolyard crush that
just makes us feel positive
and butterfly and Twitter painted all
(38:02):
the time. That's not what God's love is. God's, uh,
love is a fact of God's existence to
which we claim in boldness
that we are surrounded by God's love,
because that is what Jesus shows us now. I
think we can feel God's love. And the
closer we get to Jesus, the closer we get
(38:23):
to those times of feeling God's love. But
if we are in a season where it's
like, I'm just, I don't feel God's love in this moment
or whatever, then that
doesn't mean God's love is absent. The
lack of feeling doesn't denote the lack
of existence, because God's love is a fact of who
(38:43):
God is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:45):
Yeah, I like that. And,
you know, I think it's probably also related
to that culture change that
you name. Like, I think,
um, the more that people can share the
variety of ways in which they
experience God at work in their lives, experience
God's presence and love, I think the more that
(39:08):
that helps other people to find the
language that works for their experiences as well.
Like to say, it's not a cookie cutter
kind of thing. Right? Like, we don't all
experience God showing up in the same way.
>> Kyle Norman (39:23):
Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:27):
What about forgiveness? Uh, like,
what about people who think that they can't be
forgiven? How do you respond to that?
>> Kyle Norman (39:38):
When I've recently had that question, and
one of the things that I found myself reflecting on and
doing is
walking through them, the parable of the
unmerciful servant. And at least that
first part, and just the
dramaticness of
Jesus tells a story of the servant who owes
(40:00):
10,000 talents. Who. And I say,
just let's stop there.
Um, that the whole,
um, understanding of 10,000
talents in those days was 10,000 was the
biggest number. A talent was worth 20
years of wage. And so this servant
owed the master like an equivalent
(40:23):
of a gazillion dollars. Right.
And the whole point being, and what
Jesus is trying to say is that
forgiveness is uncalculable.
Right? And so there is nothing that we can
do to work ourselves
out of that forgiveness.
And, uh, it's just not a thing.
(40:45):
And, you know, theologians, sometimes we can
parse around what is the unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of
the Spirit, and what does that mean? And blah, blah,
blah. But if you're asking that question
out of a desire to really, you know, enter into
the forgiveness of God,
um, you're not
committing, you're not blaspheming the Spirit. So, like, let's
(41:08):
not even worry about that sometimes. Um,
I think what is
hardest in forgiveness is not being
forgiveness. Being forgiven
is accepting forgiveness is daring
to believe that that it's true. And
so I try to reframe it. I try to walk through that parable
and say, there is no, you know, forgiveness is
(41:30):
unlimited. It is always held out for us.
There is no sense in which that
forgiveness will be withheld. And so the question
isn't, you are unforgivable. The question
that we can talk about is, what does it mean for you to accept
it? And what does it mean for you to dare to
live in the midst of that? Um, and
(41:51):
then that just moves the conversation in a different
direction. Um, which,
which deals with struggles and
whatever was going on in their lives.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:04):
Yeah. Okay, let's do one
more. So I think this is also
a big one. Um, doubt. You
know, people. People will tell
me all the time that, uh,
that they're not very good Christians because they have lots of
doubts because, like, there are things that they don't understand
or things that they can't accept. Um, there are lots
(42:27):
of people who tell me that they're, you know, not
a, uh, believer at all because they,
you know, wrestle with certain
doctrines or proclamations.
So what's a helpful response to
people's doubt?
>> Kyle Norman (42:43):
Well, the helpful response is,
uh, is twofold. One
is we need to remember that
Israel is wrestling,
right? And so Israel is named Israel
because he wrestled with God. Right.
And so that sense of
(43:04):
wrestling with something we don't understand, wrestling with. Where
is God wrestling with? I don't get
this doctrine. That's actually a faithful
response. And so you
can lean into that. You can recognize
that you are faithful and still have some doubts.
And that's okay.
But then I also like to,
(43:26):
um, talk a little bit about
doubting Thomas. And,
you know, it's just one. I love doubting Thomas. We
give him a bad rap. Uh, but
it's unfairly. Unfairly, but it's an
amazing thing. So if you. And we're going to read the story just
after Easter, but, you
(43:46):
know, we all know the story. Thomas says, oh,
if I, you know, if. Unless I put the nails in my hands and blah, blah,
blah, and all this, I will not going to believe. And so we kind of lean
into that. But there's this little phrase in the text that
says, you know, after eight days, Jesus returns
and Thomas is amongst them.
Okay, wait, wait. So for eight days, for a whole
(44:06):
week, Thomas is in a place where he
doesn't know what to believe. And he doesn't believe in the
resurrection and he doesn't get it, and he doesn't understand how all
this works out, but he
is willing to journey with a community.
As they talk about the story, as
they sing the hymns, as they pray for
(44:27):
each other, and Thomas is there saying, I don't get
it, but he's willing to journey
with them. And then at some point in the
journey, he meets the risen Lord.
And um, so just because you have a
doubt, and it might even be a big
doubt again, that doesn't mean you have to
separate yourself from the community, keep
(44:50):
a part of the community. And it might actually be in the midst
of the. Might not take eight days, it might take a
little bit longer. Right. But in the midst of that
community, as you, as you sing the community
songs, as you join with the people and as you listen to the
stories, it might be in that
context that you meet the risen Lord
(45:10):
as opposed to, I'm going to
leave and be by myself.
And then once again, and once I figure it out,
then I'll come back. Uh, it might actually
be in that place that you meet the risen Lord and you
find the answer that you're looking for.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:27):
Yeah. And you know, I think further to that,
like, I think we really need to frame in the
context of community the gift of doubt.
Because like, if it, like when
communities get like way too hyped
up on certainty, like
that can result in a
lot of hysteria and
(45:50):
um, like bad behavior
and so on. Like that gift of belief
and doubt all sort of working
itself out in discernment in a community like
Thomas plays, ah, an important
role in the
post resurrection days of
(46:10):
like, okay, what is this? Like, what
is going on here? Like, that's a really important question.
Did everybody just have a collective
delusion or like, is there something real
here? So,
yeah, um, I think
framing that communally and framing that
scripturally is so important.
>> Kyle Norman (46:32):
Well, and for the church community as well, church going like,
so Thomas does believe my Lord and my God,
but then it's not all roses. After that, the community still
struggled. They still had to
work really hard against all sorts of things
that they never thought they'd have to deal with and try to figure
it out. Circumcision versus
(46:52):
uncircumcision, barbarians at the end, like
all of this kind of stuff. And some
places they did very, very well. And some
places they had to work really hard to maintain
the community. And so articulating the
gamut of doubt and struggle within the
Christian experience as a whole, I
(47:12):
think is important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:16):
Yeah, I think that is
absolutely true. And you know, I think that
can be very much in the
category of discouragement, spiritual
discouragement, if people Think that
they're gonna have this moment
of clarity, this moment of revelation,
(47:36):
um, that is just gonna settle
everything. And like then you've arrived,
like then everything is figured out. Uh, like we never
get to just arrive. We always are, uh, a work
in progress.
>> Kyle Norman (47:48):
Absolutely. And that's a, and that's a
beautiful thing. But also we need to
articulate that that means that we're always
moving into, in some sense another place of
uncertainty. Right. And as we
need to figure out. Okay, so where does my life with
God? What does that mean in this new
place?
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know,
being clear about expectations is,
is really important.
So what has changed for you most as a
church leader through this 10 year
journey through writing this book? What's
the biggest takeaway for you?
>> Kyle Norman (48:29):
I think for me, the biggest
takeaway for me is
I feel like I lead more from the heart than the
head now. Um,
and yeah, you know,
I like that at the beginning I really appreciated that
you said that the book is a pastoral book and you said
(48:51):
that there's a lot of heart in it. And that makes me
feel good because I think, not that I was this
overly heady person, however, but I can find
it easy just to live in my head.
And so I
think I have grown in my
capacity to
be that heart
(49:14):
filled presence for a
person rather
than the learned
theologian, if that makes
sense. And so I think I've grown in that capacity and
I think that's only made me a better
preacher. I think it's made me a better pastor
and I think it makes. It makes me a better priest.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:38):
Yeah. Like the word that's coming to mind for me,
and I may or may not be using it correctly, is just
empathy. Like that.
It seems to me that there's a big part of this journey
that, um, just
found you walking a lot more closely
with people's lived experiences.
>> Kyle Norman (49:59):
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And engaging.
And engaging my faith, like there was an inner
transformation that happened within me as well. So
engaging my faith in a whole
different way. And
not that I didn't have my personal relationship with Jesus
before, but it's, I would say
it's, it's stronger, it's maybe more else
(50:22):
I would maybe say it's more intense, but it's also
more personal,
uh, more
emotive now than
um, before.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:35):
So the corollary to that
question is what would you want the
biggest takeaway to be for the church? What
would you most like the
church to be communicating?
>> Kyle Norman (50:49):
That's a good question.
You know, I
recognize so in this moment.
I recognize that
there's a lot of anxiety in
(51:10):
the. In the Western world. You know,
I. We're in Canada. Um, your listeners are probably
some in the States as well, and I have friends in the
States, and, like, tensions are
ramped up. And I
think it's tempting
on each side for the
churches
(51:33):
to articulate a
position. Right. To articulate something
that we can say that will make it make
sense and help us navigate this.
And what I just. What I'm feeling in this
moment is
perhaps the place
is to be is not
(51:55):
articulating, again, the
right answer, the right position,
but
just articulating that
anxiety and what people are
feeling and saying
it's okay to feel that way, and God meets us
in this place, and
(52:18):
let's pray from that place.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:21):
Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think,
um, just being attentive
to that desire in
times of anxiety and uncertainty to be
the strong leader, to be the one with the
answers to, you know, have
some magic bullets for people.
Um, I think just articulating
(52:44):
that particular pitfall does make it
easier to live in the tension,
to pray from the tension, to look for the
presence of God. I think that's super
important.
Okay, so the book is
alive, loved, and free. I highly
recommend it. How can people get their
(53:06):
hands on this book?
>> Kyle Norman (53:07):
Book? Uh, you can get it
by, um, going on to Amazon ca.
So it's published through KDP and Amazon,
and so that is really the only place that you can
get it. It's available in paperback, uh, but also
in Kindle.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:23):
Awesome. Uh, okay, well, we're going to take a quick break. We're
going to come back for some closing question.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am with the very Reverend Kyle
Norman, and we're going to wrap up with some
closing questions. Now, Kyle, these are questions that we
(53:44):
ask all of our guests, and we always
tell them that you are welcome to take
these questions as seriously as you want
or not.
>> Kyle Norman (53:53):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:53):
Okay.
>> Kyle Norman (53:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:56):
So, Kyle, if you were pope for the
day, what would that 24 hours
entail?
>> Kyle Norman (54:04):
Well, it would definitely be riding around in the popemobile.
Like, I would. I would hit a drive through. Honestly, I would
do that. Uh,
I think if I was pope for a day, I would
want to try to get
together some Christian
leaders and just say, brass
(54:24):
tacks. Our divisions
are not helpful. How can we work
together? And just, um, let's
have those conversations.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:35):
All right. In the Pope Mobile, maybe in the.
>> Kyle Norman (54:37):
Popemobile as we go through McDonald's. I don't know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:42):
Well, that could be the hook. You know, the
invitation comes with
exactly the drive through in
the Popemobile. How could anybody resist?
>> Kyle Norman (54:52):
Yeah, exactly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:55):
Okay. Who is a, uh, theologian or
historical Christian figure that you would want to
meet, have a meal with, bring back to
life?
>> Kyle Norman (55:04):
Well, what I would, uh, there's
so many, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer,
I would. Because
I think
what he articulated in his
life in terms of
(55:25):
state, um, state religion and how it
was responding to oppression and
violence and autocracy and all
that stuff is what we are seeing today. And so if
there's anybody who could help peel
back the onion layers a little bit,
I would say here's a beer, go
(55:46):
right. And just have a chat with him.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:49):
Yeah, yeah. I would say that
answer has been coming up a little bit more
lately, and I do think that it is
a measure of the time and space that we're in right
now.
What are your hopes? Oh, sorry. What will history
remember from, uh, this current time and place?
>> Kyle Norman (56:10):
Ooh, I think
history will.
I think history will remember the rise and fall of social
media. I
think. You know, um, what was it like?
TikTok was canceled for 24 hours and
(56:31):
people went nuts. And so
I think, I think from the standpoint of, um, a hundred
years from now, or 200 when they look back, I think it's
going to be social media is a thing, but I think it's
going to, it's going to rise and it's going to come crashing down
or replaced by something new. And I think
that's what people are going to remember.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:52):
Okay, interesting. Yeah.
Uh, what are your hopes for the future of
Christianity? For the future of the church?
>> Kyle Norman (57:03):
My hopes for the future of the
church is
a, uh, growth in
vibrant but
smaller churches. Right.
(57:23):
So I think God's vision for the church is not
global denomination. Right. I think God's
vision is not where every church is a megachurch.
I think God's vision is small
pockets of Christians
gathering together in vibrancy and
passion. Uh, and that might be
100 people here and 50 here and
(57:45):
maybe 200 here and all that stuff. But
smaller yet more connected, authentic
and vibrant Christian communities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:54):
Beautiful. Kyle, where can
people find more about you?
>> Kyle Norman (58:00):
So I have a website which is
www.revkylenorman.ca.
so that's where you can find me. Um,
and then if you are in the Kamloops
area, then you can just show up at St. Paul's Cathedral
and I'm there every Sunday. So,
uh, those are kind of the places that you can find me. And you know, I'm on
(58:20):
TikTok and I'm on, uh, Facebook, so you
can Google Reverend Kyle Norman and you'll find
me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:27):
And the Kamloops area is quite
scenic, right? Like, it's quite beautiful, isn't it?
>> Kyle Norman (58:32):
Yeah, uh, it's great. We got, um, we have hills.
We're surrounded within about half an hour, about an
hour drive. I don't know, something like 300
lakes. Like it. It is a beautiful
environment. And so, yeah, if you're coming
up, um, Vancouver's great,
but Kamloops is where it's at. So
come to Kamloops.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:53):
Okay. So come for the scenery. Stay
for a conversation with me. Absolutely. Yeah.
>> Kyle Norman (58:57):
Ah, exactly. Definitely. There you go.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:00):
Sounds good. Okay. Well, I so
appreciate your time today and this conversation
and this book. We always end with the word of
peace, so may the peace of the Lord be always
with you, Kyle.
>> Kyle Norman (59:12):
And also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (59:20):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(59:42):
do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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