July 22, 2025 • 66 mins
What does faith look like in the middle of life? In this special in-person episode of podcast, co-hosts Loren Richmond Jr. and Martha Tatarnic reflect on the spiritual realities of middle age. Recorded together in St. Catharines, Ontario, they explore how faith changes through grief, caregiving, shifting theology, and the evolving nature of ministry. This deeply personal and thought-provoking conversation touches on everything from parenting and loss to theological mystery and sustaining joy in pastoral work. Loren and Martha offer hard-earned wisdom, honesty, and encouragement for anyone trying to live faithfully in the messy middle years of life and leadership.
Topics Covered
-
The spiritual needs of middle age (and why churches often overlook them)
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How grief, caregiving, and loss shape our faith
-
What sustains ministry over the long haul
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Changing theological priorities after seminary
-
Parenting teenagers and modeling faith without coercion
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Embracing mystery, awe, and the Spirit’s leading
Mentioned Resources:
📖 Martha's Book: https://www.churchpublishing.org/whygather
📖 James Cone: https://orbisbooks.com/products/the-cross-and-the-lynching-tree
🎧 Andrew Root: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/walking-into-sorrow-andrew-root-on-evangelism-in-the-age-of-despair/
🎧 Arianna Molloy: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/healthy-calling-ariana-malloy-on-burnout-purpose-and-redefining-work/
🎧 Elizabeth Schrader Polczer: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/elizabeth-schrader-polczer-on-rethinking-mary-magdalene-part-1/
🎧 Suzanne Nadell: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/leading-with-grace-suzanne-nadell-on-navigating-faith-media-polarization/
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:44):
Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast, live and in person in
St. Catharines, Ontario. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be joined
live and.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:56):
In person in 3D by Martha
Tatarnic. This is our first time actually
meeting in person, and this is your first time
in Canada, so you're welcoming our
listeners, but really I should be welcoming you to Canada.
What do you think so far?
>> Loren (01:12):
So far, so good. Trying to do
some math with the kilometers, uh,
to miles an hour, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:21):
Yeah. You said that there's a little conversion
help at the border, but then you're sort of on your own from
there.
>> Loren (01:28):
Yeah. It was 80. And they tell you stupid
Americans means 50 miles an hour.
I kind of wish, like, the car, and maybe it does. I
wondered if the car has, like, a button you can push to
convert it, Although it would still throw me off because if I
saw myself going, you know, 80
kilometers per hour, I'd still think I'm going too
(01:48):
fast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (01:49):
I'm so ingrained in miles per hour thinking.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:52):
What about your spelling? Have you, um, brushed up
on spelling? Favor. O u r
donut. D o u, g, H, n u.
>> Loren (02:01):
T. I didn't think about donut.
Center.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:05):
Yeah, Center.
>> Loren (02:07):
What else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:07):
Well, and then there's always the zed instead
of Z.
>> Loren (02:11):
That's right. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:12):
So try not to be a dead giveaway
about, uh, being American. I
think spelling donut is really important with
the dough. Yeah.
>> Loren (02:22):
And the nut.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:23):
Well, I just really like donuts, too.
>> Loren (02:25):
Well, what is Tim Hortons, Right?
What else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:28):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:29):
Well, what's the good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:30):
So here in St. Catharines is beechwood
donut.
>> Loren (02:33):
Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:34):
Which is really a special treat. So maybe we
can get some beechwood donuts before you
head back to, uh.
>> Loren (02:42):
We have time. It sounds like that's important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:45):
Yeah. I mean, Tim Hortons donuts really don't cut
it. You need sort of the local, like, freshly
baked.
>> Loren (02:51):
Okay. Donuts.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:52):
That's fair.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:53):
Okay.
But aside from donuts and spelling and
converting miles to Kilometers. What
are some of your other goals? And being here
in Niagara and being on vacation.
What's on your radar?
>> Loren (03:09):
My wife and I, my wife Karina is here with us
and we'd want to do an international trip. And this
is, you know, an international trip. And
I thought this is a win, win. I can
travel somewhere internationally, you know,
see Martha and then make sure she really
exists. Right. Not just
(03:30):
a screen. And then it's fun.
We did this last night. My
dad's grandparents lived in Niagara
Falls, New York. And I'm pretty sure we
found their old house last night, which
was sort of amazing to think about because
you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:47):
Actually did go there as a kid. So you have
like some, um, vague memories.
>> Loren (03:51):
Vague memories. But the house was built in 1875,
which is just kind of mind blowing to think about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (03:58):
A house being, you know, especially in my
neck of the woods in Colorado, where it's such
a newer,
you know, the age of everything is few
places in Colorado or that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:13):
Right, right.
>> Loren (04:14):
Especially established places, built places. But,
you know, like, I don't know if my house is still going to be around in
150 years for sure. Like modern construction.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:23):
Yeah.
>> Loren (04:25):
So, you know, it's pretty interesting to think about.
Um, you know, and I think we'll
talk a little bit more about that here of middle
age when you think about what your values are.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:38):
That's right. That's right. Well,
I am looking forward to the rest of our day after we
record our podcast because my husband Dan
is thoroughly steeped in the history of
Niagara. So we're just going to put ourselves
in the Dan van and he's going
to drive us around to some
different Niagara sites and some different
(04:59):
Niagara tastes. And I hope it'll be really fun
for you and Karina.
>> Loren (05:03):
I hope so.
Well, you have a project going on right now
on, um, sabbatical and a book
deadline. Tell us more about that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:12):
Yeah, well, it's very risky to ask me
about my book right now because I,
um, could just spend the next hour talking about
16th century Tudor England, which probably
isn't, uh, on your radar of topics
for today. Um, but yeah,
I'm working toward a July
1st deadline for, um,
(05:34):
finishing up the book that I'm working on about,
uh, Anne Boleyn and her
influence on the English Reformation and
starting what would become the Anglican Church.
Um, and I'm on sabbatical right
now in order to get that project done.
So it's all Ann, all the time for
(05:55):
me right now. But I will try not to
talk your ear off. And Karina's ear
off over the next couple of days. About.
>> Loren (06:04):
Well, if I can give, if I can
give a kickback or reference to past
podcast guests as we're recording this. My
most recent episode was Suzanne
Nadell.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:16):
Right.
>> Loren (06:16):
And we talked about making it local. So you just gotta
make Anne Boleyn local
and then it'll work.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:24):
Okay. I'm sure I'm up for that, Castle.
>> Loren (06:26):
Or make it relevant, I guess would be the, the translation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:29):
Um, well, that's kind of my whole
mo about Anne Boleyn right now, why she
matters for us. But, you know, I'm sure that
when we get closer to the release date of the book,
um, you'll interview me on the podcast
and I can tell you all about it.
Yeah. Do I ever have an episode for you?
(06:51):
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
>> Loren (06:55):
I think you've earned as much. Yeah, I think you've earned as
much.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:58):
Maybe like a two part.
>> Loren (07:04):
All right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:05):
Okay. So we aren't actually gonna
talk about, um, Anne Boleyn today,
but stay tuned. Um, we're going
to have. Well, we thought that we should have kind
of more of a laid back conversation today
because we're so thrilled to get to meet each other in person.
But I, I think that the topic that
(07:26):
we've selected is important and to
me anyway, it's underrepres.
Um, I think in the mainline
church, a lot of our work is in caring
for seniors. Um, and a
lot of what preoccupies us is
trying to reach youth.
>> Loren (07:46):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:47):
Like that is kind of the
split, um, attention
in the mainline church. So I thought
as two people in middle age,
that we should talk about faith in middle age because it's
pretty interesting and,
um, doesn't get a lot of air time in the
(08:08):
mainline church. Um, just,
you know, what do we learn at this kind of
midpoint in life and how does faith change
and what do people like us need
as people of faith? So I think
that we should just set the scene because,
um, we shouldn't assume that our listeners
remember every little thing about us.
(08:30):
Um, so, Loren, why don't you start off by
just giving our listeners
a, ah, reminder of your
experience of church growing up.
>> Loren (08:41):
Yeah, so I was, I grew up Independent
Baptist and was
Independent Baptist for The first,
roughly 25 years of my life. Went to
Bible college and then kind of
had the, you know, I guess I
was about 10, 15 years ahead of the whole
now.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:01):
Huh.
>> Loren (09:01):
What has been called the deconstruction thing.
Eventually, through
some people I met, got into the tradition
that I'm in now, and the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ,
a mainline denomination where I'm ordained,
have been through seminary. But I think what's
(09:22):
interesting, and we're just talking about this on the
drive over to where we're recording,
is you were talking about, Martha,
Dan's. How do you describe it? Home church or.
See, that's the kind of language I would use.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:36):
Right.
>> Loren (09:37):
How did you describe Dan's.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:38):
His family church, like the church he grew
up in?
>> Loren (09:42):
Yeah, I mean,
certainly in my
formative years as a, uh, young person, like
Arvada Baptist churches, like the church that I would call, like.
I don't know what language we'd use. I mean, I think
about home church is the, is the language that
most comes to mind. Yeah, well, that's certainly like a,
(10:04):
A Baptist or conservative
term. I don't know if mainliners would use that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think we'd recognize that
language.
>> Loren (10:12):
Yeah. So, like, I recently
got to preach at the Methodist church I'm
attending, and I kind of throughout the sermon
made a couple references or callbacks or
jokes to like, growing up Baptist and, you know,
like, memorizing scriptures in the King James verse.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:29):
Right.
>> Loren (10:30):
And wearing a suit, because Baptist preachers always
wore suits. So certainly that's still
very influential in my faith. And
I think part of what's been important for me is kind
of like reintegrating that in a way
because, like, I remember
when Lexi, my daughter Lexi was a baby. So this was
(10:50):
12 years ago, like writing a real, like, kind of like
scathing like, oh, who could believe in
substitutionary, uh, atonement, for instance?
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:00):
Right, right.
>> Loren (11:00):
Kind of this, like, oh, like
rejection.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:04):
Of the whole thing.
>> Loren (11:05):
And now I'm like, you know what? That's not
my favorite atonement model, but I can
understand why people would resonate with that atonement
model.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:14):
Yeah.
>> Loren (11:14):
So I think, and I think it's very interesting, like
you say about the mainline church, like,
obsessing about, like, you know, we have
all these seniors and we gotta figure out how to
get young people in the door. And there's
like, like you said, there's this important
and often missing middle ground of like, hey, if we can
get middle aged people, like, if anything,
(11:37):
like, there's probably a pretty good, like, financial
revenue source. Uh, they're established in
their lives and careers and they can probably support.
They're probably gonna offer a little bit more stability.
Um, but yeah, so for me, I think I feel like
now I have
(11:57):
mellowed out in some ways, but also
I Don't know.
And Martha, this is a question I was going to ask you too, like
for men, at least in the States,
like, I feel like 40s, that number,
early 40s, late 30s is like
the middle aged crisis happens a lot in men.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:17):
Right.
>> Loren (12:17):
So I don't know, like this is a personal
question, but did you feel like for yourself, like the kind of like middle
aged crisis, like, I know especially for me,
and I'll stop here. Like,
especially kind of going through like a career,
I don't know, transition. I felt
that a lot like trying to figure out how am m. I, like
(12:39):
I still want to serve the church. How does that look like?
Especially as the models of ministry change.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think that. Well, I think
just a lot catches up with you in middle age.
And you know, I think that that is another
reason why this underrepresented conversation
is so important is because like, I don't know how
you could get into your 40s without, uh, having like profound
spiritual needs and like questions
(13:07):
and like, you know, you've dealt with some real things
by our age and are dealing
with real things. And like,
I certainly need resources to
deal with that stuff because,
um, it's, it's
not always a bowl of cherries, you know, as my
(13:28):
husband's grandmother used to say.
>> Loren (13:31):
Yeah, yeah. Because even thinking about that, like
we're, you know, we're both parents of. My
daughter's not quite yet a teenager. Like, that's coming soon.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:40):
Yeah. And my kids are both teenagers and my
daughter's about to graduate from high school.
So there's that whole life change and.
>> Loren (13:49):
I'm thinking about to like,
I, uh, mean, I don't know this. Tell me. Like,
I'm thinking about my own parents, uh, certainly my
wife's parents and my, my dad's health
and you know, their longevity. And
you know, I joke with somebody. Hopefully my dad's not
listening and my mom's not listening, but I joked like,
(14:10):
I'm parenting my parents much. I'm parenting my kids.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:12):
Well, yeah, but sandwich generation, right. I mean, my
husband's parents have both gone
at this point. So you know,
we've sort of already crossed that threshold
with some of our parents. My parents are
both in excellent health. But
you know, I have been a pastor
(14:33):
in the same congregation for 11
years. And so the
number of people of my
parents generation who I have
watched and shepherded through decline and death
and you know, have had almost that
like, you know, they've been
(14:54):
figures of wisdom and like,
nurture in my life and They've been, you know, people
who have cared for my children sort
of as they would grandchildren. And
so, you know, like, the. The
losses do add up at this point. And
I just. I don't.
(15:15):
I don't think that you can get to this stage of life and
not feel like, okay,
life is fragile and you've got to embrace every
day. And it sounds like a bit corny to say that, but it
really is. And, you know, my parents
are. When I said that they're in excellent health,
I think we're all, like, really aware that we have to treasure
(15:36):
that. Because you just
don't know.
>> Loren (15:39):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:40):
Like, you don't know day to day.
>> Loren (15:41):
Yeah. I mean, certainly
now. And I. I'm, uh, curious.
This brings a question I'm just curious about. Like, how do
you like. Because I'm noticing this now, working again, as a
chaplain, thinking about my
wife's work in the emergency room, like,
hearing stories from her about tragedy and
(16:02):
loss, like, how do you. How do
you take care of yourself? Because I think that's one thing
I'm noticing again, so much working in
chaplaincy is, like, this heaviness of
these. That's so
important. It's taking care of your own self with these
heavy losses.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:22):
Yeah. Uh, I mean, to be honest, I
think that it is a question that I
would like our denominations to think about
carefully and intentionally because,
um, when you are
caring for congregations that
demographically, like, right across the board,
(16:43):
do, um, swing to the
older side,
um, that pastoral burden
that you are carrying is different than, I
think, a few generations ago. You know,
um, the losses can be fast
and furious. And,
(17:04):
um, I'm just, like, grateful in
the church that I serve, that I
have a couple of colleagues,
um, my co. Priest at the church.
But also we have, like, kind of an. A couple of
other key leaders at the church
who we get to share with one another
(17:25):
in navigating those losses, you know,
because we all sort of understand
the.
That these aren't just, like,
parishioners. Like, they are,
um, they are people that we have loved and admired
and been blessed to
(17:46):
call friends, you know, and they
have, like, shown us a lot about how we
want to live and how we want to live as Christians.
So I think that collegial part
is really important, and I try to lean into
that. But there are lots of. Well, and I run a lot.
Like, running is kind of my main
(18:07):
antidote to grief, to be honest. But,
um. But
even at that, like, I think that there are still
ways in which it can catch up with
Me in not the healthiest ways. And I try to
be attentive to that.
>> Loren (18:24):
Okay. So that leads me to another question. I was
thinking about this and I'm. Don't quote me on this,
listeners especially, but I remember from my
CPE training, which is my
critical pastoral education training.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:37):
We did that too.
>> Loren (18:38):
Like the leader talking about like
therapy dogs having a shorter lifespan.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:44):
Okay.
>> Loren (18:45):
And I, I literally saw that.
Like, because in the hospital I work at, there's like a
memorial wall to like all these therapy dogs and a lot of them are dead.
Dead. And I just think like, oh, um, every time I walk
by, I'm m. Like, oh my goodness. Like, how is this
impacting me? Like,
I'm not sure what the question is, but I sort of
(19:06):
am reminded of it. Like the question is in front of me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:12):
Yeah. So is it like a
parallel to our work?
We're the therapy done.
>> Loren (19:18):
Right. Like,
is this work of. Because I
think like there's something. And again, I'm thinking of
Nandra Roots book Evangelism's
Evangelism and ages despair about coming alongside people
and they're suffering. Like, man, I don't know how else
to say, like, I find that so
(19:39):
powerful.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:40):
Mhm.
>> Loren (19:41):
At work and so addicting. I don't know else to say
it. Like, but also like after
I'm done.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:48):
I'm like, yeah,
yeah. Has a big impact. I
mean, I, I don't know what the
like, statistics are. I don't know whether
you can kind of like map
out numerically the impact that it has.
I will say that, you know, a
(20:09):
couple of years ago and it was in my last book,
why Gather, like, I
really took a lot of solace and I still do
from the um,
mental fitness technique called ultra realism that
I use in long distance running.
>> Loren (20:25):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:26):
And it's like
you can spend so much time worrying about what's going to
come next or wishing that things were different.
>> Loren (20:36):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:36):
And how do you, uh,
instead like attend to what's actually happening?
And I think for me the parallel
in parish ministry, I think
there's a lot of takeaways for parish ministry and for life
and all kinds of things. But,
um, but like
when I start to uh,
(20:58):
spiral in parish ministry, it's when I think like, I
can't do this for the next 15 years. Like, I,
like, I can't. Like it's too
hard. Like it's. There's just too
much loss. And
so I really try to not think about the next
15 years. I try to think about like, okay, but right
(21:19):
now like, right now I'm okay.
And, like, right now God is providing.
And right now, like, I have resources. And right
now, like, I'm, um, I'm safe.
Um, so,
yeah, I mean, obviously we do have to, as leaders in
the church, um, be thinking
(21:41):
long range, but I think that
we do also have to trust day to day in
the God who provides. Right.
>> Loren (21:49):
I'm glad to hear you remind me that, because, you know, speaking
of, like, my own ministry context right now is very, like,
ambiguous, I guess is a word, because, like, I'm working
part time as a chaplain, still doing a
podcast. Like, I've got involved in this Christian
nonprofit, but, like, again, uh, I'm in a
stage of life where, like, I want to have, like,
(22:11):
more or more
certainty, and I don't. And I'm trying to tell myself,
like, I can't try to plan out the next 20 years.
I'm trying to, like, what is. What has God
placed in front of me? How can I be faithful in that? So
I'm, I'm, if anything, appreciate
being reminded of that in this moment, because it's certainly
(22:31):
tracking right now.
Um, yeah, I mean, we've kind
of been going back and forth, but is there anything else you want to say just about your own
background and context?
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:41):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, this has
come up many times as we've been
chatting with our guests on the podcast. But like I
said, we can't just assume that all of our listeners
remember our background or, like, aren't tuning in for the
first time. Um, so compared to
you're growing up in a more conservative denomination.
(23:02):
I really have been thoroughly,
um, formed in the mainline
tradition. I grew up in the mainline church. I've
served in ministry for the past 21 years
in the mainline church. Um,
so, you know, you would think that that might mean that,
like, my faith hasn't changed a lot
(23:24):
in that time, which isn't true. Like, I would say my
faith has gone through a lot of iterations in
that, that time. But one of the
things that I appreciate about the podcast
is getting to talk
to and, like, glean some wisdom from
you and from people who have that more
(23:46):
conservative evangelical background,
because it is pretty foreign to me. Like,
I don't know. I don't know a lot
about it, aside from kind of the negative
press, to be honest. Like, and there is a lot of
negative press, especially in
Canada, sometimes deservedly so.
(24:07):
Yeah. Like, I think Canadians
sort of have this understanding of the
evangelical American church being very wrapped up
in the politics of America, which It can be.
Which it can be. So I have appreciated
just hearing, like, really wise voices from
that tradition, um, that
(24:27):
helped to break down those,
like, barriers that exist
between our two worlds. And, you know,
I've had conversations over the years with people
from the evangelical tradition who say to me
things like, gosh, I had no idea
that people in the mainline church could be spirit led.
>> Loren (24:51):
I mean, it's. Oh, we're laughing because we know,
like, there's some truth to that joke, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:56):
Yeah.
>> Loren (24:57):
They wouldn't say it as a joke.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:58):
They would, like they were dead serious.
>> Loren (25:00):
But there's some truth to the
observation, you know, something that I've
appreciated about another
observation you've had or you use the framing of
dialect.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:13):
And I think that's a really helpful framing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:16):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:17):
Like, evangelicals speak a different dialect.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:19):
Yeah. And mainliners speak a different dialect.
>> Loren (25:22):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:23):
And I think there can be a real
assumption that if somebody speaks a different
dialect, that they
don't have a sincere faith, you
know?
>> Loren (25:35):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:36):
But they. That's not true.
>> Loren (25:38):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:38):
You know, and actually, like, there is one
Spirit and we can all be led by the
Spirit, but express that, uh, in very different
language. And we don't need to disparage
one another's spiritual experience
because they speak a different dialect. And I mean,
that is, I would say, something that
(25:58):
I have come to feel
extremely strongly about
two decades into ministry,
which is that, uh, like, I grew up hearing
mainliners kind of disparage ourselves, but
certainly, like, being disparaged by others as,
like, oh, you know, like, we,
(26:19):
we don't talk about our faith. Like, we,
we don't know how to, like, give
language to our spiritual experiences.
And that just is not true. Like, I
think that I,
in, in my experience, like,
people in my congregations are just dying
(26:40):
to talk about their experience of prayer and
God and like, where they have
gotten spiritual strength and spiritual resources.
And just because they use
different language to talk about that than
somebody in a, uh, more charismatic tradition
does not mean that those experiences aren't, like,
(27:02):
deeply important to them
and, like, deeply important in shaping their lives.
>> Loren (27:07):
Yeah. What do you think that lack
of talking about it is about? Because
when I grew up Baptist, it wasn't
a super common occurrence, but I definitely have memories
of, like, there being like,
testimony sharing time in church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:26):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I,
I mean, I think that it is like,
we don't have that kind of built into the liturgy.
>> Loren (27:35):
Right, right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:37):
But, you know, like, that's it because.
>> Loren (27:39):
You know, Baptists are very non liturgical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:42):
Right.
>> Loren (27:42):
And even broadly speaking, Evangelicalism,
much less liturgical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:48):
Yeah. But I think that that
experience of testimony does happen in
our congregations. It happens in our study
groups. It happens at coffee hour. It happens in
one another's. Like, I think that
there is a, uh, real reluctance
in mainliners to do
(28:09):
anything that would be
considered shoving your faith down somebody else's
throat. Like, that is not part of our tradition
generally. But that doesn't mean
that people don't express, like,
how God has guided them and strengthened
them and blessed them like they do. Like,
we do. We do talk about that.
>> Loren (28:30):
Yeah. Uh, I don't think that's so important.
Again, I can't remember.
I'm very steeped in Nandra Root.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:39):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:39):
I can't remember which book he talks about.
Like, one of his books, the Ministry in a Secular Age
series. He talks about the
importance of testimony, at least as I interpreted it.
But. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:54):
Well. And I would say, like, when we have been
a bit more intentional in
my churches about creating space
for testimony, for sharing of, uh, faith stories,
it does have a multiplying effect, you know,
like, it does shift the culture
(29:14):
toward other people, even if they're not participating in
those studies. Just feeling a little
freer to talk as well. Yeah.
>> Loren (29:22):
Uh, how do you think? Maybe I'm getting in the
weeds here, but when I think about
testimony in my youth,
like, there was this kind of, like, I think the
only. The real negative. And this is kind of what I'm.
I'm kind of feeling these emotional
memories of this. This kind of, like, pressure to, like,
(29:43):
you're always supposed to share, like, a positive testimony.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:45):
Oh, okay. Yeah.
>> Loren (29:46):
I think that's the one negative I would say about,
like, certainly that
conservative Christian culture is, like, you're always
supposed to, like, this is what the Lord is doing in my life.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:58):
Rather than, like, boy, I
don't. You know, like, I. I kind of remember,
like, the. The. The, um, Mother
Teresa quote of, like, story she
shared, like, at the end of her life or. Or was shared perhaps after
her life.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:13):
I can't remember.
>> Loren (30:13):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:14):
It might have, like, come out of.
>> Loren (30:15):
Like, I haven't felt God's presence
in years. That was
definitely not something you necessarily share.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:23):
Right. Yeah. I think that there is
a lot more permission in
mainline churches to be able to say,
like, I don't know where God is right now, or,
um, to say, like, this is
where God showed up when everything didn't work out,
you know, And I think that's a really important
(30:43):
testimony is, like, sometimes I
think that we
construe, like, trusting in God meaning that
we trust God to do what I want and expect.
And like, then when what I want and expect happens, that
uh, is God showing up. But
like, I, I think the
(31:04):
biblical witness and I think the honest
witness of like a person of faith is
that like, a lot of
times things don't work out the way that you
hope or imagined.
Um, you know, we're not a, ah, theology of
like, manifestation. And
so, like, yeah, where does God show up when it
(31:26):
all falls apart is a really
good testimony that I think we maybe get more
in the mainline church.
I'm like, interested,
um, because I, I
notice this in myself right now at, ah,
this time in my life. Like, my theological concerns
are quite different than they were back when I was
(31:49):
like, fresh out of seminary. And
like, give me some examples of curious. Well, I think when
I got out of seminary, like, I was really eager
to explain to people how the Trinity works, you
know, and like, how
it really works out. Uh, the. Jesus was both
like, God and human.
>> Loren (32:08):
Yes, it was true.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:09):
He said, that's right. Yeah. And like, I
just, I was so excited. Like,
oh, people just, like, they don't. They haven't had this explained
properly. Like, once I explain it properly, they're really
gonna be on fire for this stuff.
And, And I, uh, you know, like, I,
I'm still glad that there are theologians who are
(32:29):
working on that and giving us
language and like, different ways of thinking about it. But it's
not really where my concerns are these
days. Like, I'm really interested in
how our Christian faith, like,
speaks to our experience
of living in the world in the 21st
century. Like how it speaks to technology
(32:52):
and how it speaks to pop culture and how it
speaks to mental health and
our relationship with food and
um, world peace and
politics. Like, that's, I'm
very. Like, that's where my
theological leanings are right now is like,
why does this matter for the things that are like,
(33:15):
most on our minds these days? But do you
feel like your theology has shifted?
>> Loren (33:20):
I mean, my theology has shifted so much from
being very conservative that
it's hard to kind of like narrow it down.
I think I, I feel very much those same
kind of practical questions. Like, I'm,
I'm like an enneagram5. So
I love kind of thinking deeply and
(33:42):
taking m. Information. Like, I just read
like, James Cone's book basically on
the plane. Like, you know, I read
80% of it and just finished it last night.
And I think what's, I think what has really
resonated me
from that is like his basically question,
(34:05):
as I understand it, was like, what is, like what
is modern day lynching? Like, what is that in
context today? Because if I understand what he was saying, it's like,
you know, Jesus was
the, you know, his crucifixion was like the uh, modern day
or was an ancient version of lynching and vice versa.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:24):
Oh, okay.
>> Loren (34:25):
And like we
can't, like his critique of white Christian America
was like, you can't claim to follow a
crucified Jesus and then not
uh, look the other way when people
are crucified or lynched today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:43):
Right.
>> Loren (34:43):
So I feel like it's the same, I feel like
it's the same question you're asking, just in different words is like,
what, how, how is
it? Like, how do I
honestly live out my faith today
and in America? I feel like it's so challenging right
now because there's so much going on.
Mhm. And it's like I can't
(35:06):
be, I
can't be responding to everything like, because
there's so many things happening and some of that's purposeful.
So how do I, like how do I respond
faithfully to
things that I think are really important, but also
recognizing that I could be wrong and that.
(35:27):
I don't know. I think that just the
moral complexity and ambiguity and
I think that is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:36):
A really big piece too certainly of
like Christian leadership in
middle age is that discernment
piece. Because like, I've
found myself um, involved
in pieces of
advocacy or like community
(35:56):
work that I never anticipated. You
know, like, it certainly wasn't on my
agenda to like, for example, get
involved with indigenous water in
Canada or right now I'm quite
involved in um, trying to establish
a community benefits network in town which is
(36:17):
like working with different levels
of government around like development,
like development projects and making sure that the
community benefits from that. And neither one of those,
like, were things that I thought
I was specifically,
um, setting out to do. But like,
(36:38):
you do have to follow your nose a little bit in
ministry. You have to be spirit led. Right.
Like, you have to see where, where,
like where you're led
and like where your gifts kind of align with
uh, a need of the world. But then I think the other part
of that whole discernment piece is being
able to recognize
(37:01):
that you can't do everything, you know, and
to be okay with that as well. Like it's okay to
follow a lead and
pursue a piece
and to be
able to do something rather than nothing
because you can't do everything.
>> Loren (37:22):
Okay. Something I've got to ask you and I. This is kind of off script,
but forgive me, I think,
because I like you've been in, you've
been in quote unquote ministry 20 years
now, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:35):
Yeah, over 20 years.
>> Loren (37:37):
And I, I'm curious, like, what do
you think has worked for you or helped you
sustain that? Because I think like, even now,
like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:45):
I.
>> Loren (37:48):
I don't know if it's my personality. And I wonder maybe if it,
if you think personality has something to do with it. Like,
I could not. And um, I could not be the quote unquote,
senior pastor, lead pastor. Like, I just don't have the
social energy for it. And I wonder if that's a lot of what it is
is like as much as I like would to love to be on
a church staff somewhere. So I don't know if it. Maybe it's like there's just
(38:10):
not the right fit right now
in my world. But I wonder, like, I know you've talked about this
before, like, team ministry being an important part of
what sustained you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:20):
Yeah, I've been a bit of a broken record about that
because,
um. Because I have
always served on a team, even when I've been in
a smaller church. And
um, I feel extremely grateful for
that because it has allowed me
to, um, not
(38:42):
be good at everything. But at
the same time, there's a lot of parts of ministry
that I would not say come naturally to me.
And um, and I've had to
get good at doing them. Like, I,
it is not in my nature to get up in front
of a crowd and speak. It's not. I am
(39:03):
an introvert by nature. But like, it is
a very extroverted job.
So in those pieces, I think
what has sustained me is
calling like, just being really clear
that, okay, like this is what I'm being called
to do. So I need God to
(39:25):
like, provide the, the
strength and resources and right, like,
ability to be able to do it. And
also like, I will. I'm
not going to do it forever.
>> Loren (39:38):
I'm curious. I'm thinking again to a past guest
and hopefully I get her name right. Ariana Malloy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:44):
Oh yeah.
>> Loren (39:45):
She talked about. I can't remember if this is our
conversation or conversation. She was on another
podcast I listened to. She talked about kind of
like camera, the term job
mapping or like kind of if you're in a.
If you're in a job that doesn't obviously in two jobs will
like 100% align with your calling. Like
(40:06):
trying to shift the job
requirements so that more stuff aligns with what you're
gifted to. Yeah, that's been
something you've tried to utilize.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:17):
I think, like, what comes to mind is when we
went into Covid, and,
uh, and I sort of had
this sense during COVID like,
I do. I want to have more fun in ministry.
Um, so I have, like, tried to build
in some parts in ministry that
(40:39):
I just find really fun. Like, for example,
our Wednesday night worship.
Um, we have a band that leads
the worship, like, you know, probably four or five
times a year. And so I sing with
them, which is, like, totally not part of my
job description, but it is
(41:00):
fun. And if I'm not, like,
preaching on a Sunday, I will sometimes sing with the choir
and, like. Yeah, just getting to,
you know, be an alto
and, like, play a supporting part in worship
rather than, like, being
constantly in the spotlight of worship. Yeah,
(41:20):
those parts have been, like, very sustaining for me because
they just allow me to, like,
have fun, you know?
>> Loren (41:28):
Yeah, well, that's. That's good. That's good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:32):
Yeah.
So I'm interested. Like, you know, you've
obviously been involved in Future Christian for a lot
longer than I have, and you do the bulk of the
episodes. I. I get to play more of a
supporting role in Future Christian. But
like, these week in, week out, uh, conversations that
you're having with, like, leading minds in
(41:54):
Christian leadership, like, how has that
shifted your
sense of what the most important
conversations are happening in the church right now?
>> Loren (42:06):
Oh, um, man, that's a good question,
I think. I don't know,
and I could be wrong on this, but I
feel like, uh. Like, I feel like
the. The big question,
(42:26):
and this is kind of like what I preached about when I was a preacher a few weeks
ago is like,
it's like the belief in God thing. And you. You kind of
like, you. When you hinted about that about, like. Or when you're joking about
the Trinity, like, oh, people see, like, the right understanding
of the Trinity.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:42):
Yeah.
>> Loren (42:43):
Like, I feel like that's so beyond what most people's
concept is.
I feel like. Like, the idea is, like,
does God exist? And if so, like, what
does that mean? Because I feel like there's just so much
pressure to, like,
the whole society. And I don't know what's, like, in Canada,
(43:04):
perhaps even more so in the state or than in the states,
if. If cliches are correct, like,
that we can function as if
God does not exist. And because there's, like,
this performative aspect of society
right now, like, you know, you're supposed to, like,
like, almost be An Instagram influencer about.
(43:26):
Oh, I'm the. You know, I'm a
fitness. You know, I'm, um, a runner. Like, Martha and I
are.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:31):
Yeah.
>> Loren (43:32):
You know, we're, we're into running and,
you know, we gotta like, perform that on our
Instagrams. We don't. I don't. At least, you
know, we've got to be good Christian influencers. So I feel
like, because that there's so much.
I don't know, I just. To me, and I could be wrong.
That's the big.
(43:53):
I feel like that's a societal Christian thing that we're
not. I don't know.
I'm struggling to put into words. Does that make sense at all?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:02):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that that,
that makes a lot of sense. And I think that it
is such an important,
um, such an important point.
Like, I think that we. And
it comes back to that, like, middle age question.
And I think the spiritual needs of people
(44:22):
our age, like, yeah, we've been
brought up kind of in the.
This massive, like,
communication sea change,
you know, Like, I was in high school when
we first got the Internet, and like,
we just seem a million miles away from first
getting the internship. Right. Like, now we live on the
(44:44):
Internet. And.
>> Loren (44:45):
And my wife was watching a movie last night.
Sandra, uh, Bullock, Ryan Reynolds, the
Proposal. And then she's in Alaska and they get up, she
gets up on dial up Internet. You hear that?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (45:00):
Whatever that noise is. And she kind of like,
asks, like, what is that noise? I'm like, Sandra Bullock. She would have
known what that noise is. Like, her character would have known. But anyway, I
digress.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:09):
Yeah. But like, those questions about how we do
live as authentic people in that
performative world. And you're right to say that the
pressure to perform M is way beyond people who make
their life work as
influencers. And then, yeah, that
piece around, like, how
(45:29):
much we can sort of
accidentally live as functional
atheists because, like, yeah,
we just are very thoroughly formed
in the secular waters.
>> Loren (45:41):
You know, I feel like the question would be like, does this matter? And
maybe that's for shape from my own kind of
milieu, to use a big word of like, M, like we talked
about at the beginning, like, being middle age
people, like, trying to figure out, like, what really matters.
So maybe that's just influenced by my own context. But I feel
like, does this really matter?
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:01):
Like, yeah. And then if it does, like, how
so?
>> Loren (46:04):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:04):
You know, and like, does it matter in just a
very personal way? Like, it gives me personal
strength and meaning and direction or does it matter
in like a more
like global sense?
>> Loren (46:18):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:19):
You know?
>> Loren (46:19):
Yeah. And my bias is
I, I hope it matters more than just as a
self help tool. Yeah. For me. Right. I mean,
as much as I appreciate and I think that
would be my one
angster hang up or I'm not sure. I think
certainly that Christianity has been framed, I think in
(46:41):
many circles as just like a self help tool.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:44):
Yeah, I agree. But somehow I
feel like it's gotta matter in
a way that's somewhere in between the,
like, okay, on the one hand just a self help
tool, but on the other hand, if you don't get
like the exact formulation of the
Trinity. Right. Then you're probably
(47:04):
not gonna go to the right place after you die.
I, like, I, I feel like the God I
have met and being led and guided by over the past
46 years of my life, like,
I, I haven't met a God who is like
extremely hung up on the, uh, you know,
doctrinal intricacies of Christianity.
>> Loren (47:27):
I saw this, you know, because this weekend was
Trinity Sunday. I saw this on social media. Like, pastors,
make sure you're not preaching these trendy hairs. Yeah.
And I'm just thinking, like, I probably
at some point in my life have explained the Trinity to someone else
correctly. Like, but I'm like, is that
like, I get it. Like, people have
(47:48):
spent their lives and
sometimes given their lives for the sake of.
But also it's like, is that really the point?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:56):
Well, and I, like, I, by no means would I want
anybody to hear this conversation and think, oh, like,
I don't think theology matters or the
theology of the Trinity matters. Like, I think there's
something profoundly beautiful about
like, struggling to articulate our experience
of God in words. Like, I love,
I love theology.
(48:17):
I love that people are still
struggling to express it in words. But
like, on the other hand, I remember
passing a church like years ago that had
on its billboard out front, no room for
heretics.
>> Loren (48:32):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:32):
Which like, there must be a story
behind that billboard. But like
the church is full of heretics. Like, uh,
everybody's got heretical, like
things that they would express about, like
how they've genuinely experienced God.
>> Loren (48:49):
Yeah. I don't know, maybe this is something else too.
Which goes back to your previous question. Like, I feel like I've
become a lot more comfortable with mystery. And that's like the word
that I just lean back to.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:00):
I like that.
>> Loren (49:02):
Like, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
So I just will say it's a mystery.
Not that it's necessarily a noble, but I don't know
to describe it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:14):
Yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is awe.
Like. Like, though that's the
real feeling of encounter for me is,
like, those moments of awe. Awe, like just
kind of running up against beauty, you
know? Um, and, like, I don't mean
beauty, just in sort of
(49:35):
the traditional ways, but, like, yeah,
that. And I think that's very connected
to mystery.
>> Loren (49:43):
Yeah. Okay.
Do we want to talk about
parenthood?
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:48):
Yeah, let's. Let's make parenthood kind of our
last.
>> Loren (49:52):
I want to hear your wisdom. Um, there
fears behind you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:59):
Okay. Well, I don't know about
wisdom, but I do have a few observations
about my kids and their faith
that I find interesting because they're Gen
Zed,
um, although they will always tell me, mommy, it's
Gen Z. So I think
that Canadian kids also
(50:22):
call it Gen Z.
Um, so I don't think that, like,
their experience is necessarily representative
of, like, the whole demographic, but
there are things that are so different about their approach
to church and faith from what I grew up with
that I find very interesting. So, for
me, I was the only
(50:45):
kid in my church by the time I was
a teenager, and that was fine with me
because for me, it was about the ideas. It
was about, like, it was about an experience
of liturgy and prayer, and it was about
learning and ideas. And,
like, that's what drew me in. I don't think my
(51:05):
kids are that interested, honestly, in
the ideas of Christianity. Like, they're
interested in the community,
and they're interested in the friendship,
and they're
way more, um,
interested in the aesthetic of it
(51:27):
than I was as a kid. Like,
they really love, like, the traditional
architecture and the, like, that
sense of sacred space. Like, that is meaningful
to them. Um,
and, yeah,
so, like, that belonging, that
friendship, that aesthetic, that space, that
(51:50):
sacred space. And then, like, the
piece around inclusivity
is so. And that was important to me, too,
as a kid, for sure. But
they, you know, really care about being
part of a church that is
genuinely, um, open
to difference and
(52:13):
affirming. So,
yeah, those are kind of the. As
teenagers that I just see really
matter to them. And I,
you know, I'm sure that we could interview various guests
who could tell us what the broader studies are telling
us about that generation, but your kids are just, like, a
(52:33):
bit behind them. Um, what do you see?
>> Loren (52:37):
I don't know, because I. I know that I felt this
really, like, hit me, like, two, three years ago. Like,
oh, my goodness,
like, I want My kids to grow up and
faith to matter to them
and push back on me. Martha,
if you feel differently, but at least in my context,
(52:57):
maybe entering the main line when I was in my
mid-20s, it felt
like there was this kind of like
osmosis kind of approach to youth ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:08):
Like right.
>> Loren (53:09):
Like oh, those get it because they're around
it, but we don't want to, like
let's not push them too hard or they're going to run away from
entirely. Which is certainly true. So I've been
trying to think like how can I balance, like,
how can I balance, like not
especially. You know, my, my daughter, she's entering
(53:30):
adolescence. Like how can I not
push or cajole but also be
like I'm um, I'm
doing it handing motion. Like hey, these are,
you know, establishing some things that are
important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:48):
Yeah, I, I mean I do puzzle about
this in terms of like just how
effectively and I think this is shifting
from what we've seen and stuff. But
you know, the general
um, like
pattern has been that the evangelical
Christian world has been a lot better about
(54:11):
being generative and like passing the
faith on to the next generation.
And I like, but
I don't know why, like if I
tried to push anything on my kids,
they would instantly rebel. Like I don't know
how. It's just different. Different
(54:31):
in evangelical families. Like how do, how do
they do that?
>> Loren (54:36):
I can only speak to my context
most specifically. I mean there is
to use a family system serum. There is the
togetherness pressure a lot greater in
those cultures. So I think, I mean
I think that's the double edged,
you know, the shadow side right. Of that is they tend to have
(54:58):
that generation or generative effect
because of that togetherness pressure. But then you get these
people who almost reject it entirely because they're like,
want to break free of that. Yeah, strong
culture. So I mean there's a double
edged sword to that for sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:15):
Yeah, I mean I think going
back to the
great de Churching, I did that uh, interview a
while ago. What I
think happens in mainline churches
more than a rejection of
the faith is that
(55:36):
um, life just edits the faith out,
you know, like it just gets in the way like
you. And maybe that's a cultural
thing. Like you know, people in the mainline church
do tend to have social
circles and you know, sports
and arts and music commitment that are not church
(55:56):
reliant. So the whole social fabric of
our kids lives is not built around the church.
>> Loren (56:02):
Yeah, I think that's a big difference.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:04):
Yeah. And so then you get into,
like, you go away to school, and then you
start a family maybe of your own or get a job or
all of the above. And, like, life just
gets in the way, and it's not so much a wholesale
rejection as just like, well.
>> Loren (56:20):
And I'm reminded of your guest. We're going to have to reference all these
guests in the show notes. I'm reminded of what's her name?
The Mary Elizabeth,
uh.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:29):
Oh, Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer.
>> Loren (56:31):
Because for some reason that her story
has stuck with me because it represents kind of that
stereotypical, like, grew up in the church,
walked away for time, and then kind of was drawn back to.
So, like, part of me is, like, just counting on
and trying to seal myself emotionally now
from my kids having this kind of like, walk
(56:53):
away or, you know, setting it down
or whatever metaphor we want to use, and just think,
like, what can I do in the short term
to, like, kind of give them
a good taste so that there's something to
use, uh, the. The book term. Something sticky about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:10):
Yeah, sticky.
>> Loren (57:11):
The fates of that. But
they're gonna inevitably almost go through that whole.
I don't know if deconstruction is the right word, but like you said,
life and stuff gets in the way
and then be drawn back, perhaps.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:26):
Yeah. Yeah. I think.
I mean, I think that you want to,
um, lay the groundwork,
as you're saying. I think that,
like, you want to express why it
matters to you. I think that you want to be
visibly drawing on the resources
(57:49):
of the faith to get through the
challenges of life, which, as we started off this
podcast, insane. Yeah,
like, we. You get to middle age, like,
you're going to encounter challenges. Right. So, like,
bear witness to how you draw on
faith to do that. But,
(58:09):
yeah, one of the, like, just essentially
terrifying things about being a parent is that
there are just all these things outside of your control
at the end of the day. So.
>> Loren (58:22):
Okay, uh, tell me what you think of this. I.
I had this observation,
and I texted it to a friend with teenagers, and he thought it was spot
on. But I had this observation that having, like,
little kids is, like, about managing their anxiety
when having teenagers about managing your own anxiety.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:44):
Yeah, like, there's definitely something
to that. I. I've been saying
lately, like, if you notice a whole bunch of new
gray hairs on my head, it's because, like, now my
son is driving as well. And,
uh, like, having
kids driving, that's a pretty big
(59:04):
source of anxiety. But also.
But also, like, teenagers
carry a lot of anxiety, so. Yeah, no, you're still
going to be managing their anxiety, too.
>> Loren (59:19):
Wow, that's a lot.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:20):
Well, do you think that we should take a break? And,
uh, when we come back, I am going to
quiz you on your knowledge of Canada. Do you
think that you're ready for that, Loren?
>> Loren (59:32):
Yeah. Scary. And a fun challenge.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:34):
Okay, well, it's, um, such a blast
being able to do this in person. And we'll be back in a minute.
Okay.
Welcome back to the Future
Christian Podcast. We are here live and in person
in St. Catharines, Ontario. And
this is Lauren's first time in Canada. So
(59:56):
in order to really welcome him to Canada, I'm going to test
him on his knowledge of Canada.
>> Loren (01:00:01):
Yeah, I'm nervous about this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:02):
Okay, well, so I am on a website
here that is called the Canadian
Encyclopedia. I'm going to ask you five questions, and
they're in the easy category, and these
are randomly generated. So I took the quiz this morning
and I got 100%. But my five questions
will be different from your five questions.
(01:00:22):
And listeners, you can try this
quiz along with Loren from
home.
Okay, so
here we go. And it's multiple choice.
>> Loren (01:00:34):
Oh, okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:36):
Okay. First one, Banff national park is located
in which mountain range? The Appalachian Mountains,
the Laurentian Mountains, the Coastal Mountains, or
the Rocky Mountains?
>> Loren (01:00:46):
Oh, my goodness. I'm gonna guess the
Rocky Mountains.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:50):
You are correct. Uh, okay.
>> Loren (01:00:53):
I think that was just more of a geography like. Like general
knowledge. Yeah, I don't think the Appalachians. Do the
Appalachians go up to Canada?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:00):
Uh, you're really asking the wrong person. I
don't think so.
>> Loren (01:01:04):
My geography teacher might be proud
of me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:08):
Okay, who are the Metis
descended from? So
indigenous peoples and Japanese fur traders. That's
your first option. Indigenous peoples and French
and Scottish fur traders and settlers.
Vikings and the Inuit. That's your third option.
Or fourth, Indigenous peoples and
(01:01:29):
Russian fur traders and settlers.
>> Loren (01:01:31):
Oh, my goodness.
I'll say the indigenous and Russian.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:39):
That is incorrect. It is actually
the indigenous peoples and French and Scottish
fur traders.
>> Loren (01:01:46):
Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:46):
Settlers.
>> Loren (01:01:47):
Wow.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:48):
Okay, number three. So you're 50%
so far.
Okay.
>> Loren (01:01:55):
I can't believe this is easy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:56):
I know. Yeah. In
1980, Terry Fox began a
cross country run, the Marathon of Hope,
to raise money. For what cause?
Cancer research, Cystic fibrosis,
heart disease or diabetes.
>> Loren (01:02:14):
Hmm. Uh, cystic
fibrosis?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:19):
No, cancer.
Well, I mean, anybody who is a Canadian who's
listening along would know that answer because he is
like a national hero. But I understand
why. Well, no, I understand why you wouldn't
necessarily know that. And it's kind of interesting to
realize that, like, this,
like, national icon for us
(01:02:42):
is sort of outnot unknown outside of Canada.
Okay. Number four, what was
a term used to refer to Great Britain's acquisition
of Canada after France lost many
territories in the Seven Years War?
Okay, so the takeover,
the conquest, the big
(01:03:03):
oops or the land loss?
I. I don't know. Just guess.
>> Loren (01:03:13):
Land loss?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:14):
I don't think that's right. But it was the
conquest. All right,
so, um, I'm struggling here.
That's okay. You're still. You're still allowed to visit us
in Canada. We'll still take you to Tour Niagara. Here's
the last one. An inukshuk
is typically made of wood
(01:03:34):
or fabric or stone
or plastic.
>> Loren (01:03:40):
Wood.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:42):
No, it's stone.
So these are. Oh, you probably won't see them around
here, but when you travel a little bit up north,
you will see these little stone monuments along the
highway, and those are inukshuks.
>> Loren (01:03:56):
Interesting.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:57):
Yeah. All right.
>> Loren (01:03:59):
Getting invited, you know,
anytime soon here for permanent residency?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:04):
Well, you'd have to brush up on some things, but,
like, fair enough. One out of five.
>> Loren (01:04:09):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:10):
You're gonna know a lot more by the end of today because
like I said, Dan is a real Niagara,
uh, connoisseur, so he's gonna.
He's gonna share some of the history with you.
>> Loren (01:04:21):
Yeah, well, uh, I think this has been great. I feel
like now we're gonna have, like, our. Is our home base
of the podcast gonna be Saint Catharines? Is that the question?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:30):
Oh, I really like that idea. Isn't it, like,
so nice recording in person? It's so much
better than being on a screen.
So, you know, if you can just like, commute
every day from Colorado to St. Catharines.
Yeah, Yeah.
>> Loren (01:04:45):
I will say, like, the flight to Buffalo
was not that bad. And getting across
the border was where some wood had knocked
you. You know, that's not
wood, but, yeah, so far, so good.
But yeah, looking forward to,
uh, doing more and seeing the sights
(01:05:06):
today.
But I guess, should we sign off
with our traditional sign off?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:11):
Yeah, let's sign off with our traditional sign off. And
also, like, maybe I'll have to come to Colorado at some
point.
>> Loren (01:05:17):
Yeah, that would be fun, too. That would be fun,
too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:21):
Okay, well, may God's peace be with you, Loren, and also with
you and all of our listeners.
>> Loren (01:05:26):
Amen.
>> Loren Richmond (01:05:34):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(01:05:54):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Loren (00:44):
Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast, live and in person in
St. Catharines, Ontario. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be joined
live and.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:56):
In person in 3D by Martha
Tatarnic. This is our first time actually
meeting in person, and this is your first time
in Canada, so you're welcoming our
listeners, but really I should be welcoming you to Canada.
What do you think so far?
>> Loren (01:12):
So far, so good. Trying to do
some math with the kilometers, uh,
to miles an hour, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:21):
Yeah. You said that there's a little conversion
help at the border, but then you're sort of on your own from
there.
>> Loren (01:28):
Yeah. It was 80. And they tell you stupid
Americans means 50 miles an hour.
I kind of wish, like, the car, and maybe it does. I
wondered if the car has, like, a button you can push to
convert it, Although it would still throw me off because if I
saw myself going, you know, 80
kilometers per hour, I'd still think I'm going too
(01:48):
fast.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (01:49):
I'm so ingrained in miles per hour thinking.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:52):
What about your spelling? Have you, um, brushed up
on spelling? Favor. O u r
donut. D o u, g, H, n u.
>> Loren (02:01):
T. I didn't think about donut.
Center.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:05):
Yeah, Center.
>> Loren (02:07):
What else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:07):
Well, and then there's always the zed instead
of Z.
>> Loren (02:11):
That's right. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:12):
So try not to be a dead giveaway
about, uh, being American. I
think spelling donut is really important with
the dough. Yeah.
>> Loren (02:22):
And the nut.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:23):
Well, I just really like donuts, too.
>> Loren (02:25):
Well, what is Tim Hortons, Right?
What else?
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:28):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:29):
Well, what's the good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:30):
So here in St. Catharines is beechwood
donut.
>> Loren (02:33):
Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:34):
Which is really a special treat. So maybe we
can get some beechwood donuts before you
head back to, uh.
>> Loren (02:42):
We have time. It sounds like that's important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:45):
Yeah. I mean, Tim Hortons donuts really don't cut
it. You need sort of the local, like, freshly
baked.
>> Loren (02:51):
Okay. Donuts.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:52):
That's fair.
>> Martha Tatarnic (02:53):
Okay.
But aside from donuts and spelling and
converting miles to Kilometers. What
are some of your other goals? And being here
in Niagara and being on vacation.
What's on your radar?
>> Loren (03:09):
My wife and I, my wife Karina is here with us
and we'd want to do an international trip. And this
is, you know, an international trip. And
I thought this is a win, win. I can
travel somewhere internationally, you know,
see Martha and then make sure she really
exists. Right. Not just
(03:30):
a screen. And then it's fun.
We did this last night. My
dad's grandparents lived in Niagara
Falls, New York. And I'm pretty sure we
found their old house last night, which
was sort of amazing to think about because
you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:47):
Actually did go there as a kid. So you have
like some, um, vague memories.
>> Loren (03:51):
Vague memories. But the house was built in 1875,
which is just kind of mind blowing to think about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (03:58):
A house being, you know, especially in my
neck of the woods in Colorado, where it's such
a newer,
you know, the age of everything is few
places in Colorado or that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:13):
Right, right.
>> Loren (04:14):
Especially established places, built places. But,
you know, like, I don't know if my house is still going to be around in
150 years for sure. Like modern construction.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:23):
Yeah.
>> Loren (04:25):
So, you know, it's pretty interesting to think about.
Um, you know, and I think we'll
talk a little bit more about that here of middle
age when you think about what your values are.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:38):
That's right. That's right. Well,
I am looking forward to the rest of our day after we
record our podcast because my husband Dan
is thoroughly steeped in the history of
Niagara. So we're just going to put ourselves
in the Dan van and he's going
to drive us around to some
different Niagara sites and some different
(04:59):
Niagara tastes. And I hope it'll be really fun
for you and Karina.
>> Loren (05:03):
I hope so.
Well, you have a project going on right now
on, um, sabbatical and a book
deadline. Tell us more about that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:12):
Yeah, well, it's very risky to ask me
about my book right now because I,
um, could just spend the next hour talking about
16th century Tudor England, which probably
isn't, uh, on your radar of topics
for today. Um, but yeah,
I'm working toward a July
1st deadline for, um,
(05:34):
finishing up the book that I'm working on about,
uh, Anne Boleyn and her
influence on the English Reformation and
starting what would become the Anglican Church.
Um, and I'm on sabbatical right
now in order to get that project done.
So it's all Ann, all the time for
(05:55):
me right now. But I will try not to
talk your ear off. And Karina's ear
off over the next couple of days. About.
>> Loren (06:04):
Well, if I can give, if I can
give a kickback or reference to past
podcast guests as we're recording this. My
most recent episode was Suzanne
Nadell.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:16):
Right.
>> Loren (06:16):
And we talked about making it local. So you just gotta
make Anne Boleyn local
and then it'll work.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:24):
Okay. I'm sure I'm up for that, Castle.
>> Loren (06:26):
Or make it relevant, I guess would be the, the translation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:29):
Um, well, that's kind of my whole
mo about Anne Boleyn right now, why she
matters for us. But, you know, I'm sure that
when we get closer to the release date of the book,
um, you'll interview me on the podcast
and I can tell you all about it.
Yeah. Do I ever have an episode for you?
(06:51):
Yeah, it's gonna be great.
>> Loren (06:55):
I think you've earned as much. Yeah, I think you've earned as
much.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:58):
Maybe like a two part.
>> Loren (07:04):
All right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:05):
Okay. So we aren't actually gonna
talk about, um, Anne Boleyn today,
but stay tuned. Um, we're going
to have. Well, we thought that we should have kind
of more of a laid back conversation today
because we're so thrilled to get to meet each other in person.
But I, I think that the topic that
(07:26):
we've selected is important and to
me anyway, it's underrepres.
Um, I think in the mainline
church, a lot of our work is in caring
for seniors. Um, and a
lot of what preoccupies us is
trying to reach youth.
>> Loren (07:46):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (07:47):
Like that is kind of the
split, um, attention
in the mainline church. So I thought
as two people in middle age,
that we should talk about faith in middle age because it's
pretty interesting and,
um, doesn't get a lot of air time in the
(08:08):
mainline church. Um, just,
you know, what do we learn at this kind of
midpoint in life and how does faith change
and what do people like us need
as people of faith? So I think
that we should just set the scene because,
um, we shouldn't assume that our listeners
remember every little thing about us.
(08:30):
Um, so, Loren, why don't you start off by
just giving our listeners
a, ah, reminder of your
experience of church growing up.
>> Loren (08:41):
Yeah, so I was, I grew up Independent
Baptist and was
Independent Baptist for The first,
roughly 25 years of my life. Went to
Bible college and then kind of
had the, you know, I guess I
was about 10, 15 years ahead of the whole
now.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:01):
Huh.
>> Loren (09:01):
What has been called the deconstruction thing.
Eventually, through
some people I met, got into the tradition
that I'm in now, and the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ,
a mainline denomination where I'm ordained,
have been through seminary. But I think what's
(09:22):
interesting, and we're just talking about this on the
drive over to where we're recording,
is you were talking about, Martha,
Dan's. How do you describe it? Home church or.
See, that's the kind of language I would use.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:36):
Right.
>> Loren (09:37):
How did you describe Dan's.
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:38):
His family church, like the church he grew
up in?
>> Loren (09:42):
Yeah, I mean,
certainly in my
formative years as a, uh, young person, like
Arvada Baptist churches, like the church that I would call, like.
I don't know what language we'd use. I mean, I think
about home church is the, is the language that
most comes to mind. Yeah, well, that's certainly like a,
(10:04):
A Baptist or conservative
term. I don't know if mainliners would use that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think we'd recognize that
language.
>> Loren (10:12):
Yeah. So, like, I recently
got to preach at the Methodist church I'm
attending, and I kind of throughout the sermon
made a couple references or callbacks or
jokes to like, growing up Baptist and, you know,
like, memorizing scriptures in the King James verse.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:29):
Right.
>> Loren (10:30):
And wearing a suit, because Baptist preachers always
wore suits. So certainly that's still
very influential in my faith. And
I think part of what's been important for me is kind
of like reintegrating that in a way
because, like, I remember
when Lexi, my daughter Lexi was a baby. So this was
(10:50):
12 years ago, like writing a real, like, kind of like
scathing like, oh, who could believe in
substitutionary, uh, atonement, for instance?
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:00):
Right, right.
>> Loren (11:00):
Kind of this, like, oh, like
rejection.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:04):
Of the whole thing.
>> Loren (11:05):
And now I'm like, you know what? That's not
my favorite atonement model, but I can
understand why people would resonate with that atonement
model.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:14):
Yeah.
>> Loren (11:14):
So I think, and I think it's very interesting, like
you say about the mainline church, like,
obsessing about, like, you know, we have
all these seniors and we gotta figure out how to
get young people in the door. And there's
like, like you said, there's this important
and often missing middle ground of like, hey, if we can
get middle aged people, like, if anything,
(11:37):
like, there's probably a pretty good, like, financial
revenue source. Uh, they're established in
their lives and careers and they can probably support.
They're probably gonna offer a little bit more stability.
Um, but yeah, so for me, I think I feel like
now I have
(11:57):
mellowed out in some ways, but also
I Don't know.
And Martha, this is a question I was going to ask you too, like
for men, at least in the States,
like, I feel like 40s, that number,
early 40s, late 30s is like
the middle aged crisis happens a lot in men.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:17):
Right.
>> Loren (12:17):
So I don't know, like this is a personal
question, but did you feel like for yourself, like the kind of like middle
aged crisis, like, I know especially for me,
and I'll stop here. Like,
especially kind of going through like a career,
I don't know, transition. I felt
that a lot like trying to figure out how am m. I, like
(12:39):
I still want to serve the church. How does that look like?
Especially as the models of ministry change.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:45):
Yeah, I mean, I think that. Well, I think
just a lot catches up with you in middle age.
And you know, I think that that is another
reason why this underrepresented conversation
is so important is because like, I don't know how
you could get into your 40s without, uh, having like profound
spiritual needs and like questions
(13:07):
and like, you know, you've dealt with some real things
by our age and are dealing
with real things. And like,
I certainly need resources to
deal with that stuff because,
um, it's, it's
not always a bowl of cherries, you know, as my
(13:28):
husband's grandmother used to say.
>> Loren (13:31):
Yeah, yeah. Because even thinking about that, like
we're, you know, we're both parents of. My
daughter's not quite yet a teenager. Like, that's coming soon.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:40):
Yeah. And my kids are both teenagers and my
daughter's about to graduate from high school.
So there's that whole life change and.
>> Loren (13:49):
I'm thinking about to like,
I, uh, mean, I don't know this. Tell me. Like,
I'm thinking about my own parents, uh, certainly my
wife's parents and my, my dad's health
and you know, their longevity. And
you know, I joke with somebody. Hopefully my dad's not
listening and my mom's not listening, but I joked like,
(14:10):
I'm parenting my parents much. I'm parenting my kids.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:12):
Well, yeah, but sandwich generation, right. I mean, my
husband's parents have both gone
at this point. So you know,
we've sort of already crossed that threshold
with some of our parents. My parents are
both in excellent health. But
you know, I have been a pastor
(14:33):
in the same congregation for 11
years. And so the
number of people of my
parents generation who I have
watched and shepherded through decline and death
and you know, have had almost that
like, you know, they've been
(14:54):
figures of wisdom and like,
nurture in my life and They've been, you know, people
who have cared for my children sort
of as they would grandchildren. And
so, you know, like, the. The
losses do add up at this point. And
I just. I don't.
(15:15):
I don't think that you can get to this stage of life and
not feel like, okay,
life is fragile and you've got to embrace every
day. And it sounds like a bit corny to say that, but it
really is. And, you know, my parents
are. When I said that they're in excellent health,
I think we're all, like, really aware that we have to treasure
(15:36):
that. Because you just
don't know.
>> Loren (15:39):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (15:40):
Like, you don't know day to day.
>> Loren (15:41):
Yeah. I mean, certainly
now. And I. I'm, uh, curious.
This brings a question I'm just curious about. Like, how do
you like. Because I'm noticing this now, working again, as a
chaplain, thinking about my
wife's work in the emergency room, like,
hearing stories from her about tragedy and
(16:02):
loss, like, how do you. How do
you take care of yourself? Because I think that's one thing
I'm noticing again, so much working in
chaplaincy is, like, this heaviness of
these. That's so
important. It's taking care of your own self with these
heavy losses.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:22):
Yeah. Uh, I mean, to be honest, I
think that it is a question that I
would like our denominations to think about
carefully and intentionally because,
um, when you are
caring for congregations that
demographically, like, right across the board,
(16:43):
do, um, swing to the
older side,
um, that pastoral burden
that you are carrying is different than, I
think, a few generations ago. You know,
um, the losses can be fast
and furious. And,
(17:04):
um, I'm just, like, grateful in
the church that I serve, that I
have a couple of colleagues,
um, my co. Priest at the church.
But also we have, like, kind of an. A couple of
other key leaders at the church
who we get to share with one another
(17:25):
in navigating those losses, you know,
because we all sort of understand
the.
That these aren't just, like,
parishioners. Like, they are,
um, they are people that we have loved and admired
and been blessed to
(17:46):
call friends, you know, and they
have, like, shown us a lot about how we
want to live and how we want to live as Christians.
So I think that collegial part
is really important, and I try to lean into
that. But there are lots of. Well, and I run a lot.
Like, running is kind of my main
(18:07):
antidote to grief, to be honest. But,
um. But
even at that, like, I think that there are still
ways in which it can catch up with
Me in not the healthiest ways. And I try to
be attentive to that.
>> Loren (18:24):
Okay. So that leads me to another question. I was
thinking about this and I'm. Don't quote me on this,
listeners especially, but I remember from my
CPE training, which is my
critical pastoral education training.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:37):
We did that too.
>> Loren (18:38):
Like the leader talking about like
therapy dogs having a shorter lifespan.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:44):
Okay.
>> Loren (18:45):
And I, I literally saw that.
Like, because in the hospital I work at, there's like a
memorial wall to like all these therapy dogs and a lot of them are dead.
Dead. And I just think like, oh, um, every time I walk
by, I'm m. Like, oh my goodness. Like, how is this
impacting me? Like,
I'm not sure what the question is, but I sort of
(19:06):
am reminded of it. Like the question is in front of me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:12):
Yeah. So is it like a
parallel to our work?
We're the therapy done.
>> Loren (19:18):
Right. Like,
is this work of. Because I
think like there's something. And again, I'm thinking of
Nandra Roots book Evangelism's
Evangelism and ages despair about coming alongside people
and they're suffering. Like, man, I don't know how else
to say, like, I find that so
(19:39):
powerful.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:40):
Mhm.
>> Loren (19:41):
At work and so addicting. I don't know else to say
it. Like, but also like after
I'm done.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:48):
I'm like, yeah,
yeah. Has a big impact. I
mean, I, I don't know what the
like, statistics are. I don't know whether
you can kind of like map
out numerically the impact that it has.
I will say that, you know, a
(20:09):
couple of years ago and it was in my last book,
why Gather, like, I
really took a lot of solace and I still do
from the um,
mental fitness technique called ultra realism that
I use in long distance running.
>> Loren (20:25):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:26):
And it's like
you can spend so much time worrying about what's going to
come next or wishing that things were different.
>> Loren (20:36):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:36):
And how do you, uh,
instead like attend to what's actually happening?
And I think for me the parallel
in parish ministry, I think
there's a lot of takeaways for parish ministry and for life
and all kinds of things. But,
um, but like
when I start to uh,
(20:58):
spiral in parish ministry, it's when I think like, I
can't do this for the next 15 years. Like, I,
like, I can't. Like it's too
hard. Like it's. There's just too
much loss. And
so I really try to not think about the next
15 years. I try to think about like, okay, but right
(21:19):
now like, right now I'm okay.
And, like, right now God is providing.
And right now, like, I have resources. And right
now, like, I'm, um, I'm safe.
Um, so,
yeah, I mean, obviously we do have to, as leaders in
the church, um, be thinking
(21:41):
long range, but I think that
we do also have to trust day to day in
the God who provides. Right.
>> Loren (21:49):
I'm glad to hear you remind me that, because, you know, speaking
of, like, my own ministry context right now is very, like,
ambiguous, I guess is a word, because, like, I'm working
part time as a chaplain, still doing a
podcast. Like, I've got involved in this Christian
nonprofit, but, like, again, uh, I'm in a
stage of life where, like, I want to have, like,
(22:11):
more or more
certainty, and I don't. And I'm trying to tell myself,
like, I can't try to plan out the next 20 years.
I'm trying to, like, what is. What has God
placed in front of me? How can I be faithful in that? So
I'm, I'm, if anything, appreciate
being reminded of that in this moment, because it's certainly
(22:31):
tracking right now.
Um, yeah, I mean, we've kind
of been going back and forth, but is there anything else you want to say just about your own
background and context?
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:41):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, this has
come up many times as we've been
chatting with our guests on the podcast. But like I
said, we can't just assume that all of our listeners
remember our background or, like, aren't tuning in for the
first time. Um, so compared to
you're growing up in a more conservative denomination.
(23:02):
I really have been thoroughly,
um, formed in the mainline
tradition. I grew up in the mainline church. I've
served in ministry for the past 21 years
in the mainline church. Um,
so, you know, you would think that that might mean that,
like, my faith hasn't changed a lot
(23:24):
in that time, which isn't true. Like, I would say my
faith has gone through a lot of iterations in
that, that time. But one of the
things that I appreciate about the podcast
is getting to talk
to and, like, glean some wisdom from
you and from people who have that more
(23:46):
conservative evangelical background,
because it is pretty foreign to me. Like,
I don't know. I don't know a lot
about it, aside from kind of the negative
press, to be honest. Like, and there is a lot of
negative press, especially in
Canada, sometimes deservedly so.
(24:07):
Yeah. Like, I think Canadians
sort of have this understanding of the
evangelical American church being very wrapped up
in the politics of America, which It can be.
Which it can be. So I have appreciated
just hearing, like, really wise voices from
that tradition, um, that
(24:27):
helped to break down those,
like, barriers that exist
between our two worlds. And, you know,
I've had conversations over the years with people
from the evangelical tradition who say to me
things like, gosh, I had no idea
that people in the mainline church could be spirit led.
>> Loren (24:51):
I mean, it's. Oh, we're laughing because we know,
like, there's some truth to that joke, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:56):
Yeah.
>> Loren (24:57):
They wouldn't say it as a joke.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:58):
They would, like they were dead serious.
>> Loren (25:00):
But there's some truth to the
observation, you know, something that I've
appreciated about another
observation you've had or you use the framing of
dialect.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:13):
And I think that's a really helpful framing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:16):
Yeah.
>> Loren (25:17):
Like, evangelicals speak a different dialect.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:19):
Yeah. And mainliners speak a different dialect.
>> Loren (25:22):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:23):
And I think there can be a real
assumption that if somebody speaks a different
dialect, that they
don't have a sincere faith, you
know?
>> Loren (25:35):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:36):
But they. That's not true.
>> Loren (25:38):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (25:38):
You know, and actually, like, there is one
Spirit and we can all be led by the
Spirit, but express that, uh, in very different
language. And we don't need to disparage
one another's spiritual experience
because they speak a different dialect. And I mean,
that is, I would say, something that
(25:58):
I have come to feel
extremely strongly about
two decades into ministry,
which is that, uh, like, I grew up hearing
mainliners kind of disparage ourselves, but
certainly, like, being disparaged by others as,
like, oh, you know, like, we,
(26:19):
we don't talk about our faith. Like, we,
we don't know how to, like, give
language to our spiritual experiences.
And that just is not true. Like, I
think that I,
in, in my experience, like,
people in my congregations are just dying
(26:40):
to talk about their experience of prayer and
God and like, where they have
gotten spiritual strength and spiritual resources.
And just because they use
different language to talk about that than
somebody in a, uh, more charismatic tradition
does not mean that those experiences aren't, like,
(27:02):
deeply important to them
and, like, deeply important in shaping their lives.
>> Loren (27:07):
Yeah. What do you think that lack
of talking about it is about? Because
when I grew up Baptist, it wasn't
a super common occurrence, but I definitely have memories
of, like, there being like,
testimony sharing time in church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:26):
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I,
I mean, I think that it is like,
we don't have that kind of built into the liturgy.
>> Loren (27:35):
Right, right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:37):
But, you know, like, that's it because.
>> Loren (27:39):
You know, Baptists are very non liturgical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:42):
Right.
>> Loren (27:42):
And even broadly speaking, Evangelicalism,
much less liturgical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:48):
Yeah. But I think that that
experience of testimony does happen in
our congregations. It happens in our study
groups. It happens at coffee hour. It happens in
one another's. Like, I think that
there is a, uh, real reluctance
in mainliners to do
(28:09):
anything that would be
considered shoving your faith down somebody else's
throat. Like, that is not part of our tradition
generally. But that doesn't mean
that people don't express, like,
how God has guided them and strengthened
them and blessed them like they do. Like,
we do. We do talk about that.
>> Loren (28:30):
Yeah. Uh, I don't think that's so important.
Again, I can't remember.
I'm very steeped in Nandra Root.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:39):
Yeah.
>> Loren (28:39):
I can't remember which book he talks about.
Like, one of his books, the Ministry in a Secular Age
series. He talks about the
importance of testimony, at least as I interpreted it.
But. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:54):
Well. And I would say, like, when we have been
a bit more intentional in
my churches about creating space
for testimony, for sharing of, uh, faith stories,
it does have a multiplying effect, you know,
like, it does shift the culture
(29:14):
toward other people, even if they're not participating in
those studies. Just feeling a little
freer to talk as well. Yeah.
>> Loren (29:22):
Uh, how do you think? Maybe I'm getting in the
weeds here, but when I think about
testimony in my youth,
like, there was this kind of, like, I think the
only. The real negative. And this is kind of what I'm.
I'm kind of feeling these emotional
memories of this. This kind of, like, pressure to, like,
(29:43):
you're always supposed to share, like, a positive testimony.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:45):
Oh, okay. Yeah.
>> Loren (29:46):
I think that's the one negative I would say about,
like, certainly that
conservative Christian culture is, like, you're always
supposed to, like, this is what the Lord is doing in my life.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:57):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:58):
Rather than, like, boy, I
don't. You know, like, I. I kind of remember,
like, the. The. The, um, Mother
Teresa quote of, like, story she
shared, like, at the end of her life or. Or was shared perhaps after
her life.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:13):
I can't remember.
>> Loren (30:13):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:14):
It might have, like, come out of.
>> Loren (30:15):
Like, I haven't felt God's presence
in years. That was
definitely not something you necessarily share.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:23):
Right. Yeah. I think that there is
a lot more permission in
mainline churches to be able to say,
like, I don't know where God is right now, or,
um, to say, like, this is
where God showed up when everything didn't work out,
you know, And I think that's a really important
(30:43):
testimony is, like, sometimes I
think that we
construe, like, trusting in God meaning that
we trust God to do what I want and expect.
And like, then when what I want and expect happens, that
uh, is God showing up. But
like, I, I think the
(31:04):
biblical witness and I think the honest
witness of like a person of faith is
that like, a lot of
times things don't work out the way that you
hope or imagined.
Um, you know, we're not a, ah, theology of
like, manifestation. And
so, like, yeah, where does God show up when it
(31:26):
all falls apart is a really
good testimony that I think we maybe get more
in the mainline church.
I'm like, interested,
um, because I, I
notice this in myself right now at, ah,
this time in my life. Like, my theological concerns
are quite different than they were back when I was
(31:49):
like, fresh out of seminary. And
like, give me some examples of curious. Well, I think when
I got out of seminary, like, I was really eager
to explain to people how the Trinity works, you
know, and like, how
it really works out. Uh, the. Jesus was both
like, God and human.
>> Loren (32:08):
Yes, it was true.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:09):
He said, that's right. Yeah. And like, I
just, I was so excited. Like,
oh, people just, like, they don't. They haven't had this explained
properly. Like, once I explain it properly, they're really
gonna be on fire for this stuff.
And, And I, uh, you know, like, I,
I'm still glad that there are theologians who are
(32:29):
working on that and giving us
language and like, different ways of thinking about it. But it's
not really where my concerns are these
days. Like, I'm really interested in
how our Christian faith, like,
speaks to our experience
of living in the world in the 21st
century. Like how it speaks to technology
(32:52):
and how it speaks to pop culture and how it
speaks to mental health and
our relationship with food and
um, world peace and
politics. Like, that's, I'm
very. Like, that's where my
theological leanings are right now is like,
why does this matter for the things that are like,
(33:15):
most on our minds these days? But do you
feel like your theology has shifted?
>> Loren (33:20):
I mean, my theology has shifted so much from
being very conservative that
it's hard to kind of like narrow it down.
I think I, I feel very much those same
kind of practical questions. Like, I'm,
I'm like an enneagram5. So
I love kind of thinking deeply and
(33:42):
taking m. Information. Like, I just read
like, James Cone's book basically on
the plane. Like, you know, I read
80% of it and just finished it last night.
And I think what's, I think what has really
resonated me
from that is like his basically question,
(34:05):
as I understand it, was like, what is, like what
is modern day lynching? Like, what is that in
context today? Because if I understand what he was saying, it's like,
you know, Jesus was
the, you know, his crucifixion was like the uh, modern day
or was an ancient version of lynching and vice versa.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:24):
Oh, okay.
>> Loren (34:25):
And like we
can't, like his critique of white Christian America
was like, you can't claim to follow a
crucified Jesus and then not
uh, look the other way when people
are crucified or lynched today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:43):
Right.
>> Loren (34:43):
So I feel like it's the same, I feel like
it's the same question you're asking, just in different words is like,
what, how, how is
it? Like, how do I
honestly live out my faith today
and in America? I feel like it's so challenging right
now because there's so much going on.
Mhm. And it's like I can't
(35:06):
be, I
can't be responding to everything like, because
there's so many things happening and some of that's purposeful.
So how do I, like how do I respond
faithfully to
things that I think are really important, but also
recognizing that I could be wrong and that.
(35:27):
I don't know. I think that just the
moral complexity and ambiguity and
I think that is.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:36):
A really big piece too certainly of
like Christian leadership in
middle age is that discernment
piece. Because like, I've
found myself um, involved
in pieces of
advocacy or like community
(35:56):
work that I never anticipated. You
know, like, it certainly wasn't on my
agenda to like, for example, get
involved with indigenous water in
Canada or right now I'm quite
involved in um, trying to establish
a community benefits network in town which is
(36:17):
like working with different levels
of government around like development,
like development projects and making sure that the
community benefits from that. And neither one of those,
like, were things that I thought
I was specifically,
um, setting out to do. But like,
(36:38):
you do have to follow your nose a little bit in
ministry. You have to be spirit led. Right.
Like, you have to see where, where,
like where you're led
and like where your gifts kind of align with
uh, a need of the world. But then I think the other part
of that whole discernment piece is being
able to recognize
(37:01):
that you can't do everything, you know, and
to be okay with that as well. Like it's okay to
follow a lead and
pursue a piece
and to be
able to do something rather than nothing
because you can't do everything.
>> Loren (37:22):
Okay. Something I've got to ask you and I. This is kind of off script,
but forgive me, I think,
because I like you've been in, you've
been in quote unquote ministry 20 years
now, right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:35):
Yeah, over 20 years.
>> Loren (37:37):
And I, I'm curious, like, what do
you think has worked for you or helped you
sustain that? Because I think like, even now,
like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:45):
I.
>> Loren (37:48):
I don't know if it's my personality. And I wonder maybe if it,
if you think personality has something to do with it. Like,
I could not. And um, I could not be the quote unquote,
senior pastor, lead pastor. Like, I just don't have the
social energy for it. And I wonder if that's a lot of what it is
is like as much as I like would to love to be on
a church staff somewhere. So I don't know if it. Maybe it's like there's just
(38:10):
not the right fit right now
in my world. But I wonder, like, I know you've talked about this
before, like, team ministry being an important part of
what sustained you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:20):
Yeah, I've been a bit of a broken record about that
because,
um. Because I have
always served on a team, even when I've been in
a smaller church. And
um, I feel extremely grateful for
that because it has allowed me
to, um, not
(38:42):
be good at everything. But at
the same time, there's a lot of parts of ministry
that I would not say come naturally to me.
And um, and I've had to
get good at doing them. Like, I,
it is not in my nature to get up in front
of a crowd and speak. It's not. I am
(39:03):
an introvert by nature. But like, it is
a very extroverted job.
So in those pieces, I think
what has sustained me is
calling like, just being really clear
that, okay, like this is what I'm being called
to do. So I need God to
(39:25):
like, provide the, the
strength and resources and right, like,
ability to be able to do it. And
also like, I will. I'm
not going to do it forever.
>> Loren (39:38):
I'm curious. I'm thinking again to a past guest
and hopefully I get her name right. Ariana Malloy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:44):
Oh yeah.
>> Loren (39:45):
She talked about. I can't remember if this is our
conversation or conversation. She was on another
podcast I listened to. She talked about kind of
like camera, the term job
mapping or like kind of if you're in a.
If you're in a job that doesn't obviously in two jobs will
like 100% align with your calling. Like
(40:06):
trying to shift the job
requirements so that more stuff aligns with what you're
gifted to. Yeah, that's been
something you've tried to utilize.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:17):
I think, like, what comes to mind is when we
went into Covid, and,
uh, and I sort of had
this sense during COVID like,
I do. I want to have more fun in ministry.
Um, so I have, like, tried to build
in some parts in ministry that
(40:39):
I just find really fun. Like, for example,
our Wednesday night worship.
Um, we have a band that leads
the worship, like, you know, probably four or five
times a year. And so I sing with
them, which is, like, totally not part of my
job description, but it is
(41:00):
fun. And if I'm not, like,
preaching on a Sunday, I will sometimes sing with the choir
and, like. Yeah, just getting to,
you know, be an alto
and, like, play a supporting part in worship
rather than, like, being
constantly in the spotlight of worship. Yeah,
(41:20):
those parts have been, like, very sustaining for me because
they just allow me to, like,
have fun, you know?
>> Loren (41:28):
Yeah, well, that's. That's good. That's good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:32):
Yeah.
So I'm interested. Like, you know, you've
obviously been involved in Future Christian for a lot
longer than I have, and you do the bulk of the
episodes. I. I get to play more of a
supporting role in Future Christian. But
like, these week in, week out, uh, conversations that
you're having with, like, leading minds in
(41:54):
Christian leadership, like, how has that
shifted your
sense of what the most important
conversations are happening in the church right now?
>> Loren (42:06):
Oh, um, man, that's a good question,
I think. I don't know,
and I could be wrong on this, but I
feel like, uh. Like, I feel like
the. The big question,
(42:26):
and this is kind of like what I preached about when I was a preacher a few weeks
ago is like,
it's like the belief in God thing. And you. You kind of
like, you. When you hinted about that about, like. Or when you're joking about
the Trinity, like, oh, people see, like, the right understanding
of the Trinity.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:42):
Yeah.
>> Loren (42:43):
Like, I feel like that's so beyond what most people's
concept is.
I feel like. Like, the idea is, like,
does God exist? And if so, like, what
does that mean? Because I feel like there's just so much
pressure to, like,
the whole society. And I don't know what's, like, in Canada,
(43:04):
perhaps even more so in the state or than in the states,
if. If cliches are correct, like,
that we can function as if
God does not exist. And because there's, like,
this performative aspect of society
right now, like, you know, you're supposed to, like,
like, almost be An Instagram influencer about.
(43:26):
Oh, I'm the. You know, I'm a
fitness. You know, I'm, um, a runner. Like, Martha and I
are.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:31):
Yeah.
>> Loren (43:32):
You know, we're, we're into running and,
you know, we gotta like, perform that on our
Instagrams. We don't. I don't. At least, you
know, we've got to be good Christian influencers. So I feel
like, because that there's so much.
I don't know, I just. To me, and I could be wrong.
That's the big.
(43:53):
I feel like that's a societal Christian thing that we're
not. I don't know.
I'm struggling to put into words. Does that make sense at all?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:02):
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that that,
that makes a lot of sense. And I think that it
is such an important,
um, such an important point.
Like, I think that we. And
it comes back to that, like, middle age question.
And I think the spiritual needs of people
(44:22):
our age, like, yeah, we've been
brought up kind of in the.
This massive, like,
communication sea change,
you know, Like, I was in high school when
we first got the Internet, and like,
we just seem a million miles away from first
getting the internship. Right. Like, now we live on the
(44:44):
Internet. And.
>> Loren (44:45):
And my wife was watching a movie last night.
Sandra, uh, Bullock, Ryan Reynolds, the
Proposal. And then she's in Alaska and they get up, she
gets up on dial up Internet. You hear that?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (45:00):
Whatever that noise is. And she kind of like,
asks, like, what is that noise? I'm like, Sandra Bullock. She would have
known what that noise is. Like, her character would have known. But anyway, I
digress.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:09):
Yeah. But like, those questions about how we do
live as authentic people in that
performative world. And you're right to say that the
pressure to perform M is way beyond people who make
their life work as
influencers. And then, yeah, that
piece around, like, how
(45:29):
much we can sort of
accidentally live as functional
atheists because, like, yeah,
we just are very thoroughly formed
in the secular waters.
>> Loren (45:41):
You know, I feel like the question would be like, does this matter? And
maybe that's for shape from my own kind of
milieu, to use a big word of like, M, like we talked
about at the beginning, like, being middle age
people, like, trying to figure out, like, what really matters.
So maybe that's just influenced by my own context. But I feel
like, does this really matter?
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:01):
Like, yeah. And then if it does, like, how
so?
>> Loren (46:04):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:04):
You know, and like, does it matter in just a
very personal way? Like, it gives me personal
strength and meaning and direction or does it matter
in like a more
like global sense?
>> Loren (46:18):
Yes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:19):
You know?
>> Loren (46:19):
Yeah. And my bias is
I, I hope it matters more than just as a
self help tool. Yeah. For me. Right. I mean,
as much as I appreciate and I think that
would be my one
angster hang up or I'm not sure. I think
certainly that Christianity has been framed, I think in
(46:41):
many circles as just like a self help tool.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:44):
Yeah, I agree. But somehow I
feel like it's gotta matter in
a way that's somewhere in between the,
like, okay, on the one hand just a self help
tool, but on the other hand, if you don't get
like the exact formulation of the
Trinity. Right. Then you're probably
(47:04):
not gonna go to the right place after you die.
I, like, I, I feel like the God I
have met and being led and guided by over the past
46 years of my life, like,
I, I haven't met a God who is like
extremely hung up on the, uh, you know,
doctrinal intricacies of Christianity.
>> Loren (47:27):
I saw this, you know, because this weekend was
Trinity Sunday. I saw this on social media. Like, pastors,
make sure you're not preaching these trendy hairs. Yeah.
And I'm just thinking, like, I probably
at some point in my life have explained the Trinity to someone else
correctly. Like, but I'm like, is that
like, I get it. Like, people have
(47:48):
spent their lives and
sometimes given their lives for the sake of.
But also it's like, is that really the point?
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:56):
Well, and I, like, I, by no means would I want
anybody to hear this conversation and think, oh, like,
I don't think theology matters or the
theology of the Trinity matters. Like, I think there's
something profoundly beautiful about
like, struggling to articulate our experience
of God in words. Like, I love,
I love theology.
(48:17):
I love that people are still
struggling to express it in words. But
like, on the other hand, I remember
passing a church like years ago that had
on its billboard out front, no room for
heretics.
>> Loren (48:32):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:32):
Which like, there must be a story
behind that billboard. But like
the church is full of heretics. Like, uh,
everybody's got heretical, like
things that they would express about, like
how they've genuinely experienced God.
>> Loren (48:49):
Yeah. I don't know, maybe this is something else too.
Which goes back to your previous question. Like, I feel like I've
become a lot more comfortable with mystery. And that's like the word
that I just lean back to.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:00):
I like that.
>> Loren (49:02):
Like, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
So I just will say it's a mystery.
Not that it's necessarily a noble, but I don't know
to describe it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:14):
Yeah, the word that comes to mind for me is awe.
Like. Like, though that's the
real feeling of encounter for me is,
like, those moments of awe. Awe, like just
kind of running up against beauty, you
know? Um, and, like, I don't mean
beauty, just in sort of
(49:35):
the traditional ways, but, like, yeah,
that. And I think that's very connected
to mystery.
>> Loren (49:43):
Yeah. Okay.
Do we want to talk about
parenthood?
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:48):
Yeah, let's. Let's make parenthood kind of our
last.
>> Loren (49:52):
I want to hear your wisdom. Um, there
fears behind you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:59):
Okay. Well, I don't know about
wisdom, but I do have a few observations
about my kids and their faith
that I find interesting because they're Gen
Zed,
um, although they will always tell me, mommy, it's
Gen Z. So I think
that Canadian kids also
(50:22):
call it Gen Z.
Um, so I don't think that, like,
their experience is necessarily representative
of, like, the whole demographic, but
there are things that are so different about their approach
to church and faith from what I grew up with
that I find very interesting. So, for
me, I was the only
(50:45):
kid in my church by the time I was
a teenager, and that was fine with me
because for me, it was about the ideas. It
was about, like, it was about an experience
of liturgy and prayer, and it was about
learning and ideas. And,
like, that's what drew me in. I don't think my
(51:05):
kids are that interested, honestly, in
the ideas of Christianity. Like, they're
interested in the community,
and they're interested in the friendship,
and they're
way more, um,
interested in the aesthetic of it
(51:27):
than I was as a kid. Like,
they really love, like, the traditional
architecture and the, like, that
sense of sacred space. Like, that is meaningful
to them. Um,
and, yeah,
so, like, that belonging, that
friendship, that aesthetic, that space, that
(51:50):
sacred space. And then, like, the
piece around inclusivity
is so. And that was important to me, too,
as a kid, for sure. But
they, you know, really care about being
part of a church that is
genuinely, um, open
to difference and
(52:13):
affirming. So,
yeah, those are kind of the. As
teenagers that I just see really
matter to them. And I,
you know, I'm sure that we could interview various guests
who could tell us what the broader studies are telling
us about that generation, but your kids are just, like, a
(52:33):
bit behind them. Um, what do you see?
>> Loren (52:37):
I don't know, because I. I know that I felt this
really, like, hit me, like, two, three years ago. Like,
oh, my goodness,
like, I want My kids to grow up and
faith to matter to them
and push back on me. Martha,
if you feel differently, but at least in my context,
(52:57):
maybe entering the main line when I was in my
mid-20s, it felt
like there was this kind of like
osmosis kind of approach to youth ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:08):
Like right.
>> Loren (53:09):
Like oh, those get it because they're around
it, but we don't want to, like
let's not push them too hard or they're going to run away from
entirely. Which is certainly true. So I've been
trying to think like how can I balance, like,
how can I balance, like not
especially. You know, my, my daughter, she's entering
(53:30):
adolescence. Like how can I not
push or cajole but also be
like I'm um, I'm
doing it handing motion. Like hey, these are,
you know, establishing some things that are
important.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:48):
Yeah, I, I mean I do puzzle about
this in terms of like just how
effectively and I think this is shifting
from what we've seen and stuff. But
you know, the general
um, like
pattern has been that the evangelical
Christian world has been a lot better about
(54:11):
being generative and like passing the
faith on to the next generation.
And I like, but
I don't know why, like if I
tried to push anything on my kids,
they would instantly rebel. Like I don't know
how. It's just different. Different
(54:31):
in evangelical families. Like how do, how do
they do that?
>> Loren (54:36):
I can only speak to my context
most specifically. I mean there is
to use a family system serum. There is the
togetherness pressure a lot greater in
those cultures. So I think, I mean
I think that's the double edged,
you know, the shadow side right. Of that is they tend to have
(54:58):
that generation or generative effect
because of that togetherness pressure. But then you get these
people who almost reject it entirely because they're like,
want to break free of that. Yeah, strong
culture. So I mean there's a double
edged sword to that for sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:15):
Yeah, I mean I think going
back to the
great de Churching, I did that uh, interview a
while ago. What I
think happens in mainline churches
more than a rejection of
the faith is that
(55:36):
um, life just edits the faith out,
you know, like it just gets in the way like
you. And maybe that's a cultural
thing. Like you know, people in the mainline church
do tend to have social
circles and you know, sports
and arts and music commitment that are not church
(55:56):
reliant. So the whole social fabric of
our kids lives is not built around the church.
>> Loren (56:02):
Yeah, I think that's a big difference.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:04):
Yeah. And so then you get into,
like, you go away to school, and then you
start a family maybe of your own or get a job or
all of the above. And, like, life just
gets in the way, and it's not so much a wholesale
rejection as just like, well.
>> Loren (56:20):
And I'm reminded of your guest. We're going to have to reference all these
guests in the show notes. I'm reminded of what's her name?
The Mary Elizabeth,
uh.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:29):
Oh, Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer.
>> Loren (56:31):
Because for some reason that her story
has stuck with me because it represents kind of that
stereotypical, like, grew up in the church,
walked away for time, and then kind of was drawn back to.
So, like, part of me is, like, just counting on
and trying to seal myself emotionally now
from my kids having this kind of like, walk
(56:53):
away or, you know, setting it down
or whatever metaphor we want to use, and just think,
like, what can I do in the short term
to, like, kind of give them
a good taste so that there's something to
use, uh, the. The book term. Something sticky about.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:10):
Yeah, sticky.
>> Loren (57:11):
The fates of that. But
they're gonna inevitably almost go through that whole.
I don't know if deconstruction is the right word, but like you said,
life and stuff gets in the way
and then be drawn back, perhaps.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:26):
Yeah. Yeah. I think.
I mean, I think that you want to,
um, lay the groundwork,
as you're saying. I think that,
like, you want to express why it
matters to you. I think that you want to be
visibly drawing on the resources
(57:49):
of the faith to get through the
challenges of life, which, as we started off this
podcast, insane. Yeah,
like, we. You get to middle age, like,
you're going to encounter challenges. Right. So, like,
bear witness to how you draw on
faith to do that. But,
(58:09):
yeah, one of the, like, just essentially
terrifying things about being a parent is that
there are just all these things outside of your control
at the end of the day. So.
>> Loren (58:22):
Okay, uh, tell me what you think of this. I.
I had this observation,
and I texted it to a friend with teenagers, and he thought it was spot
on. But I had this observation that having, like,
little kids is, like, about managing their anxiety
when having teenagers about managing your own anxiety.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:44):
Yeah, like, there's definitely something
to that. I. I've been saying
lately, like, if you notice a whole bunch of new
gray hairs on my head, it's because, like, now my
son is driving as well. And,
uh, like, having
kids driving, that's a pretty big
(59:04):
source of anxiety. But also.
But also, like, teenagers
carry a lot of anxiety, so. Yeah, no, you're still
going to be managing their anxiety, too.
>> Loren (59:19):
Wow, that's a lot.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:20):
Well, do you think that we should take a break? And,
uh, when we come back, I am going to
quiz you on your knowledge of Canada. Do you
think that you're ready for that, Loren?
>> Loren (59:32):
Yeah. Scary. And a fun challenge.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:34):
Okay, well, it's, um, such a blast
being able to do this in person. And we'll be back in a minute.
Okay.
Welcome back to the Future
Christian Podcast. We are here live and in person
in St. Catharines, Ontario. And
this is Lauren's first time in Canada. So
(59:56):
in order to really welcome him to Canada, I'm going to test
him on his knowledge of Canada.
>> Loren (01:00:01):
Yeah, I'm nervous about this.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:02):
Okay, well, so I am on a website
here that is called the Canadian
Encyclopedia. I'm going to ask you five questions, and
they're in the easy category, and these
are randomly generated. So I took the quiz this morning
and I got 100%. But my five questions
will be different from your five questions.
(01:00:22):
And listeners, you can try this
quiz along with Loren from
home.
Okay, so
here we go. And it's multiple choice.
>> Loren (01:00:34):
Oh, okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:36):
Okay. First one, Banff national park is located
in which mountain range? The Appalachian Mountains,
the Laurentian Mountains, the Coastal Mountains, or
the Rocky Mountains?
>> Loren (01:00:46):
Oh, my goodness. I'm gonna guess the
Rocky Mountains.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:50):
You are correct. Uh, okay.
>> Loren (01:00:53):
I think that was just more of a geography like. Like general
knowledge. Yeah, I don't think the Appalachians. Do the
Appalachians go up to Canada?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:00):
Uh, you're really asking the wrong person. I
don't think so.
>> Loren (01:01:04):
My geography teacher might be proud
of me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:08):
Okay, who are the Metis
descended from? So
indigenous peoples and Japanese fur traders. That's
your first option. Indigenous peoples and French
and Scottish fur traders and settlers.
Vikings and the Inuit. That's your third option.
Or fourth, Indigenous peoples and
(01:01:29):
Russian fur traders and settlers.
>> Loren (01:01:31):
Oh, my goodness.
I'll say the indigenous and Russian.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:39):
That is incorrect. It is actually
the indigenous peoples and French and Scottish
fur traders.
>> Loren (01:01:46):
Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:46):
Settlers.
>> Loren (01:01:47):
Wow.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:48):
Okay, number three. So you're 50%
so far.
Okay.
>> Loren (01:01:55):
I can't believe this is easy.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:56):
I know. Yeah. In
1980, Terry Fox began a
cross country run, the Marathon of Hope,
to raise money. For what cause?
Cancer research, Cystic fibrosis,
heart disease or diabetes.
>> Loren (01:02:14):
Hmm. Uh, cystic
fibrosis?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:19):
No, cancer.
Well, I mean, anybody who is a Canadian who's
listening along would know that answer because he is
like a national hero. But I understand
why. Well, no, I understand why you wouldn't
necessarily know that. And it's kind of interesting to
realize that, like, this,
like, national icon for us
(01:02:42):
is sort of outnot unknown outside of Canada.
Okay. Number four, what was
a term used to refer to Great Britain's acquisition
of Canada after France lost many
territories in the Seven Years War?
Okay, so the takeover,
the conquest, the big
(01:03:03):
oops or the land loss?
I. I don't know. Just guess.
>> Loren (01:03:13):
Land loss?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:14):
I don't think that's right. But it was the
conquest. All right,
so, um, I'm struggling here.
That's okay. You're still. You're still allowed to visit us
in Canada. We'll still take you to Tour Niagara. Here's
the last one. An inukshuk
is typically made of wood
(01:03:34):
or fabric or stone
or plastic.
>> Loren (01:03:40):
Wood.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:42):
No, it's stone.
So these are. Oh, you probably won't see them around
here, but when you travel a little bit up north,
you will see these little stone monuments along the
highway, and those are inukshuks.
>> Loren (01:03:56):
Interesting.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:03:57):
Yeah. All right.
>> Loren (01:03:59):
Getting invited, you know,
anytime soon here for permanent residency?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:04):
Well, you'd have to brush up on some things, but,
like, fair enough. One out of five.
>> Loren (01:04:09):
Sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:10):
You're gonna know a lot more by the end of today because
like I said, Dan is a real Niagara,
uh, connoisseur, so he's gonna.
He's gonna share some of the history with you.
>> Loren (01:04:21):
Yeah, well, uh, I think this has been great. I feel
like now we're gonna have, like, our. Is our home base
of the podcast gonna be Saint Catharines? Is that the question?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:04:30):
Oh, I really like that idea. Isn't it, like,
so nice recording in person? It's so much
better than being on a screen.
So, you know, if you can just like, commute
every day from Colorado to St. Catharines.
Yeah, Yeah.
>> Loren (01:04:45):
I will say, like, the flight to Buffalo
was not that bad. And getting across
the border was where some wood had knocked
you. You know, that's not
wood, but, yeah, so far, so good.
But yeah, looking forward to,
uh, doing more and seeing the sights
(01:05:06):
today.
But I guess, should we sign off
with our traditional sign off?
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:11):
Yeah, let's sign off with our traditional sign off. And
also, like, maybe I'll have to come to Colorado at some
point.
>> Loren (01:05:17):
Yeah, that would be fun, too. That would be fun,
too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:05:21):
Okay, well, may God's peace be with you, Loren, and also with
you and all of our listeners.
>> Loren (01:05:26):
Amen.
>> Loren Richmond (01:05:34):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(01:05:54):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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