April 22, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of the Future Christian podcast, hosts Martha and Loren engage in a personal check-in, discussing Loren's vocational transitions and the challenges of navigating ministry outside traditional roles. They then delve into the current state of Canada-US relations, exploring the emotional and economic implications of a perceived trade war. The conversation highlights the cultural identity of Canadians and the growing sense of national pride amidst external pressures, emphasizing the importance of recognizing diverse forms of ministry and leadership in a changing landscape. In this conversation, Martha and Loren explore the role of progressive Christianity in addressing contemporary political issues, the importance of empathy and mercy in sermons, and the challenges of navigating political sensitivities within congregations. They discuss the significance of music in fostering community and healing, the need for courage in leadership, and the importance of finding common ground across political divides. The conversation concludes with personal reflections on coping strategies and a shared prayer for unity and guidance.
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:06):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:26):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is designed
to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
tools you need for impactful ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:38):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am, um, co host of Future
Christian and today I am
so pleased to be joined by
my co Host, Loren Richmond
Jr. Hi Loren.
>> Loren (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:56):
Uh, we get to listen to one another's episodes
all the time and we're kind of back and
forth over text and email about
the podcast, but it is a treat to actually
book some time to catch up with one another.
>> Loren (01:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:13):
Yeah. So we thought that we would use our,
um, you know, like
season recap,
check in to talk a
little bit about Canada, uh, U.S.
relations. And you're
in Colorado, uh, and
I'm in Niagara,
(01:35):
and uh, we're on different
sides of what is suddenly a trade war.
Um, so we thought that we would talk
about those different perspectives and how we're
navigating it, how we're navigating it with our faith
communities, um, all of those things.
But I thought that before we got into
some of those, more,
(01:57):
um, political,
uh, updates that we might just do a bit of
a personal check in because, Loren, you've
had things going on in your
life, some, uh, vocational
transitions and stuff. Do you want to share with
our listeners, uh, what
(02:17):
has been happening for you?
>> Loren (02:19):
Yeah, well, I tried to hint at
this, I think in the past hoping
that there would be a, you know, I've talked about how carrying
Future Christian through several jobs or a few jobs,
and I hinted at I hope there'd be a fourth or fifth transition to carry it
through. So I'm fortunate to
hopefully be doing that here through a
new transition. So I'm going to be working kind of in a.
(02:42):
It's hard to think what the correct terminology would be, but I
guess I'll call it like a multi vocational
role centered around
church and ministry. I suppose. So I'll be working
part time as a hospital chaplain
part time for a ministry
nonprofit that supports worship
(03:03):
leaders and church leaders, and then
also for another small role
for a local nonprofit that's trying to help churches
develop land for affordable housing.
So really excited about these things. Obviously
represents a big transition for me and
my family. But um, something that's been helpful
for me as I've kind of been
(03:25):
through a period of discernment, so to speak,
trying to figure out what to do with my life, is
I've found some clarity
with the understanding that I still feel called to the
church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:39):
Mhm.
>> Loren (03:39):
To serve the church. And
some recognition. That doesn't mean that I have to have a
certain title. Right. I don't have to have the title of
pastor to be fulfilling my calling. And I think that's been a
helpful discernment for me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:53):
Yeah, I think that's really good. And I mean that does sound
like, I mean it sounds like a juggling act
to be clear, because,
um, I would imagine that
any of those roles could be on the all
consuming side of things. But to
me when you describe that, that sounds like a really
good combination
(04:15):
of your skill sets and gifts
and like the experience that you would bring to the
table. So I hope it
feels like really life giving to
be moving into that combination of
things.
>> Loren (04:30):
I mean, nerve wracking for sure,
but life giving in many ways, even when
I, even when it is some orientation at the hospital
with the uh, staff chaplain, it's
funny like
I talked to him about his job and
he's like, do you want, do you want a similar M role? I'm like,
(04:51):
not really. I mean the kind of
person I am, like, the thought of like having a 9 to 5 just
doing the same monotony is,
is not really my jam. But also
like, I mean, I just had an experience
yesterday or the day before outside a
hospital where I had this like mini pastoral care
moment. And it was just so profound. And
(05:14):
like we text a little bit about
this, right Martha? Or at least exchange I think on
socials about that. Like there's something
so profound and holy about
um, you know, pastoral care moments. Mhm. It's
almost like addicting I think, to me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:31):
Yeah. And I think like I
have a variety of friends who
have transitioned from, you know,
leading churches into other kinds of
ministries and expressions of ministry. And
it is like so important to
look beyond the language because,
(05:53):
um, like if God is calling you
to ministry, ministry
appears.
>> Loren (05:59):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:01):
You don't need the labels.
>> Loren (06:04):
I'm wondering this, Martha, what are your thoughts on this? Because I've been
thinking about this lately. It seems
like at the 5 or 10 year mark
for pastors,
a lot of folks, I don't know, it seems like
for men especially around like 40,
me, a few others I've seen, I don't Know if it's like up,
(06:24):
uh, for your neck of the woods. But it seems like
pastors, like, they either like
drop out the ministry entirely.
They go to work for like, sort of like what I'm doing,
like a parachurch ministry, nonprofit,
whatever word you want to use, or they just
like keep going. Like, what have you seen?
(06:45):
I'm curious.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:46):
Yeah. Um, I mean, certainly
men and women of all
ages, like the dropout
rate is significant,
you know, Like, I think,
I think in the cohort ahead of
my husband, so he was ordained like a year
(07:07):
and a half ahead of me and the
cohort before him, like
with like by the time I was
in ministry, like none of them were left.
Like all of them had just
realized that it wasn't for
them. Um, and
(07:29):
lots of statistics around the dropout
rates through Covid and since COVID
Um, but at the same time, I have heard
lots of people kind of name
that post 40 into your
50s ministry zone, which I'm
just in now as
(07:50):
like being quite
fruitful. Um, mhm.
If you stay, you
know. Um, and
it definitely is a different,
uh, there are just like different possibilities that
open up when you're not
(08:10):
in the mode of trying to establish yourself, improve
yourself. And I sure found like in my
20s and early 30s, like
the need to prove that I
deserve to be there was.
>> Loren (08:24):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:25):
It was really high. And
I think there were kind of all sorts of ways in which I
act like, acted like such a. Know it all. I don't know
how people could stand being around me,
honestly.
>> Loren (08:37):
But same. Yeah, yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:41):
Um, so it's nice to be able
to let that go a little bit
and lean into all the things you don't know.
>> Loren (08:51):
Yeah, I'm wondering too. I'm thinking back
to one of my way past
guests, Ferguson and Packard, who talked
about, I think it was in their book about
this need for like different
or I guess I think as they described it, it was like this idea that like,
culturally, like the only way to become like a faith
leader is through like traditional
(09:14):
parish ordination. And it's like a,
uh, it's like a situation that
I've recognized even right now.
Like I. There's like this Christian
nonprofit forming in my neck of the woods that's
really based on like a social service type
model, you know, sprinkled in with a
faith foundation. But
(09:36):
they're like, what do we call you? As
Loren,
former pastor. So I think in some ways that's
why I've liked having this chaplain role, because I can
say, hey, I still have Some clergy status.
How else do you define yourself as a clergy or
faith leader when you don't have that? Pastor of
XYZ Church?
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:58):
Yeah, yeah,
I think it is
such a thing. And it's a thing that we're going to have
to figure out more and more because.
>> Loren (10:09):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:09):
Like there are just going to be so many more non
traditional forms of ministry and
we're going to have people come out of seminaries
who are not going to lead churches. So
something for us to uh. I think
the language has got to evolve a little bit.
>> Loren (10:30):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:32):
Yeah.
So any other big updates
about uh, I guess that is probably
all consuming at the moment. Getting
your feet wet in the new uh,
configuration.
>> Loren (10:47):
Yeah, I guess I should tease this. Right. So we were
just talking about it like Martha and I are planning
to connect in person in June I
think. So I'm excited about that.
Um, looking forward to taking a trip with my wife
and we'll connect in person as part of
that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:06):
Yeah, I think that it is long overdue.
Um, you know,
we've uh, been working together on this
for quite a while now and it's a
passion project for both of us. Um,
and we have never seen one another
in three dimensions, so.
>> Loren (11:26):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:27):
It's going to be great. And you know, my
husband is from Niagara. Um,
he is excited to show you
around. Um, there's some great
wineries and lots of
local history and um, hopefully the
weather will be good and it's going to be,
(11:47):
it's going to be a lot of fun and I'm going to be on sabbatical at
that time.
>> Loren (11:51):
You can party.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:53):
I can party, yeah. Um, I'm
planning on really living it up on Saturday nights
through the coming months.
>> Loren (12:01):
Um, I will say that's one thing I don't
miss about church
ministry is now on Saturdays I'm always
wanting to text my friends and be like, oh, I maybe shouldn't because
they're trying to get in the zone for Sunday.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:16):
Yeah, I always tell um,
people that when I retire I'm going to be a
Saturday party animal. Yeah, that's like my
goal. Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I, um, think it
would be helpful from my perspective and I'm guessing
from our Canadian listeners to
(12:39):
just get a bit of an
American perspective on how
the pretty
significant deterioration of relationship between
our countries is being perceived and
talked about from over
there. Um, and certainly I can share
with you some of what's going on here.
(13:02):
But uh, you know, you
elected a new president in November.
Like how, how is
the political landscape shaking down since
then, just generally.
>> Loren (13:15):
Well, let me first start with something
light hearted because this was what, a month ago now,
right? The. The NHL Four
nations hockey tournament.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (13:26):
And oh my goodness, that was so much fun. As
a sports guy who loves, really
enjoys like watching a game where I really don't
have a real strong dog in the
fight, but also like, the game's got some juice to it, to use
a metaphor. And my goodness, the USA
Canada games had some juice to it. So I
(13:46):
owe Martha and adult
beverage when we connect in June because
we put a friendly bet on
the USA Canada what championship game. M. I
think it was. So that was, my
goodness, from a sporting perspective, a lot of fun just to kind
of see that juice and see those players play so
(14:07):
hard. You know, from a more serious perspective, I think it's
been kind of heartbreaking in
disorienting all the things you want to say
to see.
I mean, I think, just think, uh, you know, I think
about we're neighbors
and I'm sure
(14:27):
like many Canadians and
Americans, we know people
from each other's nation
and I think it's. It's sad to see
this unnecessary, uh,
unhelpful. I mean, whatever language you want to
use that's succumb and
(14:49):
for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be,
I don't know, uh, I'm at
a loss for words, I guess.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:56):
I guess. Well,
it's interesting to hear you say that and I appreciate
the emotion of what you're saying as well.
I read a New Yorker article, I think it was
last week that said, you know, like, Americans
don't particularly think about Canadians
except when they don't like an election
(15:17):
outcome and then they talk about moving to Canada.
Uh, but it's different in
Canada. I mean, in Canada we do think about
our American neighbors all the time. And it's not just
because, like, we're living next to the
world's biggest superpower.
It's also because, like, we're constantly consuming
(15:39):
American media and American music and
American television and
um, American products.
Like, we, um, you know, the whole
world consumes so much of
American, um, culture.
Right. And then we're living right next
door to the U.S.
(16:02):
um, as you say,
like, you know, I have family who
live in the States, I have colleagues who live
in the States. I have people in my
congregation who are American.
Um, we have enjoyed this
relationship with America that
(16:22):
maybe hasn't been completely like,
balanced. Again, like, we know we're a
small country population, uh,
wise and economically compared to the
States, but it has
Evolved as a very,
like, intertwined,
interconnected
relationship. And it
(16:44):
feels personal. Like, it
feels personal, um,
to have it suddenly so
severely compromised. Like, I would really liken it
to a divorce. You know, it's like we're trying
to, like,
separate into two separate
households. We're trying to,
(17:06):
um. Like, what, uh, was the.
What was the Gwyneth Paltrow,
um, strategic uncoupling or.
>> Loren (17:15):
Yeah, something.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:17):
It wasn't strategic. It was conscious
uncoupling. M. But, like,
it also hurts. Like, it,
uh, Obviously there's like just tons
of, um, worry
economically. And that goes for every
single person on the planet right now with the
stock markets going up and down and
(17:38):
threats of recession and, you know, even talk of
like a depression, like this kind of being like
the next major depression.
>> Loren (17:46):
That's where things get really scary.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:48):
They get really scary. Yeah.
Um, and yet
at the same time, like, it's also
just that profound
hurt of like, we
thought that we were in this together.
And now,
like our politicians, we're in the middle of
(18:11):
an election. We're electing a new prime
minister at the end of this month.
And, um, you know,
the ballot box question has now become
like, tariffs and Trump.
And, uh, our
leaders who are running for prime minister, most of
(18:31):
them are kind of saying, like, things will never be the same.
That's terrible.
>> Loren (18:37):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:40):
And it's such an unforced error. Like, there's
no reason for it. Like, we
had a good relationship
and, you know,
I. I also very much enjoyed
our little wager over the hockey game.
And I really love a
sports bandwagon that I can climb on when things
(19:03):
get exciting. I'm not like a year round
sports fan, but I can get really into a game. But I will
tell you, like, it felt like we had a
real, um,
like, dog in that fight. Like, yeah,
it, like the stakes were very high in Canada
because, like, we needed a morale boost. Just
like, has felt like we have been,
(19:27):
um, bullied for no
reason by the people we
thought were our friends and
partners.
>> Loren (19:36):
Yeah. It's interesting
how you share that perspective
as a Canadian, because I think it speaks
to something those of us in
the United States are so unaware of.
And that's our kind of cultural, to
use a big word, hegemony. Right.
Yeah, Cultural dominance. Like, it's just like the water we're
(19:59):
swimming in. So we don't think about, like, how much of the
world is impacted by our
media and our economics and our soft power,
so to speak. And
it does, even beyond the
political. I can't Help but think
even to.
(20:20):
Even to church and Christianity. Like, I wonder
what will be like the impact
in church world, like
the correlation or collaboration or now
lack thereof. Perhaps because
there's such US Dominance in
(20:43):
the culture, worldwide culture. What do you
think?
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:49):
I mean, I have never
seen anything like it in
Canada. And
if there is a silver lining in all of
this, it is the
exceptional sort of
intentional investment in what it is to be
(21:10):
Canadian in a way that I have never
experienced in my lifetime. I mean, Canadians
are like, famously
sort of apologetic and that goes
for like, just our
basic identity. Like, we can just kind of be
apologetic about not being
American or like. Or not being as big
(21:33):
as America or as influential or whatever.
And suddenly like, there's just such an
investment in Canadian
content and supporting Canadian business
and Canadian products and Canadian
storytelling and Canadian music
and, um, just like
re evaluating how much
(21:56):
good there actually is here in a way that
is very easy to,
um, not think about
because again, we just sort
of. It's the water we swim in too, that you
turn on Netflix and you watch
American programming. Like, it's,
um. Like I watch American
(22:19):
reality shows, reality TV
shows. I don't watch a ton of
Canadian content, but
that like,
clarity, um, around just, okay, if
we care about being a sovereign nation, then
let's act like it. And I,
(22:41):
I imagine that to maybe a
lesser degree that's going on all around the world
because, yeah, um,
suddenly everybody's impacted by
tariff announcements and
um, a sense of like, nobody
particularly being off the hook, certainly
(23:01):
for more than a few days at a time. So.
Yeah, um,
I.
>> Loren (23:09):
Sorry, I was. Sorry to cut you off. I was just going to
say I. I think it's
interesting a. Like, there's
similar, like, it thinks.
To me, I think of like the.
There's not so much boycotting of certain companies,
although certainly Tesla,
(23:30):
their numbers are suffering because
of the radioactivity around Musk.
For good reason, if I can be frank.
Um, but it does seem like a
good
step forward to think, what can I control?
I can control where my dollars go
or my finances go or where I'm investing my time and
(23:51):
resources. I'm also thinking, Martha, and I think
this is especially true, at least in some of
the things that I've seen. Like, I loved that clip. I
think it was you sent me or I saw of like Carney
and who's the. Who's the.
Mike Myers, right? Like, yeah, great.
Like, good, good,
(24:11):
good club propaganda commercial.
But of like, there's kind of this theory that
like, people don't have
any values other than money. Like, I
think that's like I was listening to another non
religious podcast the other
day and saying like in
America, like the, the number one value is people's
(24:34):
economics, their, their dollars. Like what's gonna.
Like that's why the swing voters voted for Trump because
they thought like, he's gonna impact my wallet
the most financially.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:44):
Well, they were right. Like he certainly is
impacting their wallet, but maybe not in the way
they expected.
>> Loren (24:52):
Oh my gosh, Martha with a
burn. Um,
but Martha, you're demonstrating like
people have other values. Like
I mean, Greenland, right? Like that's a
whole thing similar like, oh, US wants to take over
Greenland and Greens. Like, no, no thanks, we're
(25:12):
good. You're talking about it yourself. Like this
kind of like pride of, this national
pride of like that goes beyond like dollars and
cents. And I feel like if I can
go philosophical here, that's, I think the
biggest problem, I think in
America is several people point out
(25:32):
like the number one
moniker or identification thing
people say about themselves in America is based on their
political ideology. Like I'm a Democrat first, I'm
a Republican first. I'm a progressive first. To
me when I talk, what's my number one
moniker? Like I'm a Christian, I'm a father, I'm a husband,
(25:53):
not necessarily in that order, but you know, like my
political ideology. I would not put that
gosh in the top five, top ten.
So do you think like that's a big cultural
missing. Not missing point. But
what am I trying to say?
Something certain leaders in my nation are not
(26:15):
accounting for
is that people have
a value other than just
money as their number one. Um, their value
of either money or their political ideology
as like their number one identity. Like you mentioned,
for Canadians, like people are rallying around
(26:36):
their national pride. Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean the sense
in Canada, and
again like this is our sense. I'm sure
that the reporting is quite different
there. But the sense in Canada is
that the tariff,
the uh, trade war was initiated
(26:58):
legitimately with the hope
that Canada would
succumb to economic pressure and become
the 51st state. Because Canada
is extremely rich in very
valuable natural resources
and critical minerals that are going
to become ever more essential in
(27:21):
the years ahead. Um, that like
the, the talk of the 51st state
and the, our prime minister
becoming a governor, um, that
that was more than just sort of like
needling, that um, that there
was a hope that
um, that this would just, we would
(27:43):
fold. Right.
>> Loren (27:44):
And whenever there's like, oh, I'M just joking kind
of language. There's always some truth behind it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:50):
Yeah, yeah. And,
like, the narrative in Canada
anyway is that, like, don't
underestimate us. Like,
um, our national hashtag at the moment is
elbows up. And, like, that's a
hockey term, as I understand it. Yeah.
>> Loren (28:09):
Explain that for our non Canadian listeners.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:11):
Yeah, well, and I kind of have to explain it
as a non hockey person
to people because I had to
look it up. But, like, it is a hockey term of,
like, sort of defiance. Uh,
right. Like, of
aggression. Um, and, like,
(28:31):
you're gonna come at us, like, elbows up.
Like, we're not buckling. We're not, as you
said, like, okay, you can apply
financial pressure, but don't expect that we're
gonna just,
like, fold into the United
States. We do actually have a country
(28:51):
and an identity that we care profoundly.
And it has been. I would not,
by any means, say that any of this is
good, but it is an upside
for Canada to just be really clear about,
um, feeling good about being
Canadian.
>> Loren (29:10):
Right, right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:13):
Yeah.
I'm interested in
what get said in
pulpits, especially from
mainline progressive
Christians. Obviously, there
was the really big moment of Bishop
Marianne Buddy. I think her last name
(29:35):
is pronounced Buddy, um,
speaking like truth to power. And I thought
in such a gracious way.
Um, just calling for mercy.
Uh,
I have had a couple of
sermons here at St. George's and my colleague
Tom has had some sermons as
(29:56):
well. I always run through my sermon with
my son before I preach on a Sunday
morning, and twice he has
reacted to the sermon by saying,
uh, like, are you sure that you want
to be that political? And
to me, I don't think I'm being political. I think I'm
speaking to, like,
(30:19):
people's anxieties and
what people are talking about and worrying
about and caring about right now. Like, I'm not trying to
throw down the gauntlet politically. I'm just trying to
speak to what I'm hearing and
people are feeling.
Um, but, like, it does
(30:41):
end up with sermons
that talk about the realities
of Trump and
U.S. canada relations and
stuff. Like,
is there similar messaging
happening in American pulpits?
>> Loren (31:02):
I think when I was talking about Bishop
Buddy's sermon with my friends
who are all actively preaching regularly,
they appreciated what she had to say, but
were also thinking, like, boy, it might be
harder
depending, uh, on the polity. Right. Like, the congregational polity, for
(31:24):
instance, in a lot of denominations or a few
denominations in the States is such, like, if you
anger the Karnagons, they can run you out of town.
So there's some
hesitancy about this
pressure to be like, oh, we should all be, like Bishop Buddy and, like, speak
truth to power, because, like,
(31:44):
some of us could lose our jobs. That being said, I think
there's a big admiration
for her and what she said and just the
guts to do that. And I
think. I think that
line of preaching is really
valuable. I'm thinking, again, I'm not preaching
regularly, but even in the church I
(32:05):
attend. A couple weeks ago, a
sermon was given about based on psalms.
I can't remember the psalm
specifically. And I think the church that I
would attend would
broadly be looked at as more purplish,
if that makes sense. Like, kind of middle has
Republicans, Democrats,
(32:28):
but, like, the. The guy who's speaking
gave a sermon, and he made the point, like,
leaders, whether
they're church leaders, whether political leaders, like, you have to care about
people. And that seems like a pretty
basic sermon, but also
it's kind of political these days. You can't not
(32:49):
care about individuals. And I
think, similarly, Bishop Buddy
said, have mercy on these people. I think
that's an approach because.
I don't know. I mean, like, let's be honest, too, about this,
Martha. Like, I don't know if you've seen this. Like, there's this big
movement, uh, amongst some
conservative Christians about, like, saying empathy is
(33:11):
a sin, which is just preposterous to me,
so.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:15):
Oh, my gosh.
>> Loren (33:16):
Yeah. Even there, there's some pushback about, like,
it's troubling. I mean, it is. I mean,
I, uh, think that's what's most troubling, is just how
callousness and carelessness has been.
(33:37):
Has become, like, the rule of the day. I think that's
what's most heartbreaking to me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:43):
Yeah. It seems like we're setting the bar
extremely low
just to say, like, okay, mercy is a
gospel quality.
That seems like, uh, a bar that we
should all be able to get across.
Right. Like, that's really
worrisome if that is considered,
(34:06):
um, too
divisive.
>> Loren (34:10):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:12):
We were having a conversation at parish
council about sending a letter
of support to Bishop Buddy just to
say, you know, we're grateful for your
words and we're praying for you
in, like, any pushback that you're
experiencing. And it was, you know, a
(34:33):
really nice letter that,
uh, somebody on our ministry team crafted,
and we just wanted to be able to sign it as a
parish council. And there were some
people just, like, a little concerned. Like, we
don't want to be divisive. We don't want people to feel like if
they have a different view politically, that they
can't, um, that
(34:54):
they're kind of being ostracized or
whatever. And we felt like
the letter was not framed in a way that was
divisive, that it was just kind of speaking
to basic core gospel values.
And one of the
elders of our congregation,
um, you know, he just
(35:16):
said like, this is a time
for courage and
like all of us need to
um, get ready to use our
voices to, to speak up
for what we know is right.
And everybody signed the
letter, you know, like it was
(35:39):
quite, um, quite stirring.
But it's not
to diminish,
um, that
it can feel really complicated
trying to navigate that.
>> Loren (35:55):
Yeah. And I suppose speaking to some of those shared values
can be helpful. Like I'm thinking like my
lucky representative who I disagree with
on many points, to be vague.
I've been trying to communicate with him,
you know, when I send him a letter or make a phone
call. Seems like every week or every couple
(36:17):
weeks. Right. Like
on his social media bios, like the
first thing it says, like Christian
interest. I'll just be like, listen,
there's three things we should all be to agree on.
Humans are made in the image of God. Christ
(36:37):
died for all. God loves all.
We can agree on that. Can we
treat our fellow human beings,
especially if you claim to be a Christian from
that working foundation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:52):
Yeah, that seems like just
such, ah, an important,
like common ground to claim.
>> Loren (37:02):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:03):
And you said you haven't gotten any response.
>> Loren (37:06):
I mean, you know, just
the kind of standard form letter response
emails. So we'll see. I mean, I,
it's complicated, right? It's, who
knows. And because I certainly, I don't want
to, I feel like my perspective
is that any kind of real harsh thing is just gonna be
(37:26):
like tuned out, you
know, as this, the classic, like, oh, there's just some angry
liberal. I know, let's ignore him.
So I'm thinking like, what's a way that I can communicate in a way
that speaks in a way
that he'll listen, but also like
won't just be turned out as
(37:47):
liberal talking points, so to speak.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:50):
Yeah, I know. Um, I think
that's really important, like when we're
talking across political divides is
trying to establish that common ground and
you know, in lots of ways, like, I think
that like
pastors are uniquely
(38:11):
positioned to theoretically be able to do
that because, you know, we're constantly
speaking to a uh, very mixed crowd
of people who come from a lot of different backgrounds
and a Lot of different perspectives and
ages and stages and affiliations and so on.
And yeah, you want to
(38:31):
lay claim to. Okay, here are the things
that unite us rather than divide us.
Um,
but then
it does feel like some of those basics
are maybe a step too far at the moment.
>> Loren (38:51):
Yeah. Which is very sad.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:53):
Yeah.
Um, I've been
obviously giving a lot of
thought to how
to minister to people in times
of such significant anxiety. And,
and the anxiety is really high
in Canada right now and I think it is in the States
(39:16):
as well for lots of people.
Um, and
you know, in some ways
I think that being in the midst
of a crisis does
give clarity of purpose.
Like there is
this sort of like Covid. Like there
(39:38):
is this reality that we're all trying to
navigate. And like, speaking to that
is really important, whether it's from the pulpit
or elsewhere.
Um,
one of the things that has been really important in
my faith community right now is
music. We, um,
(40:01):
have like a Wednesday night service
gathering once a month that
uh, is sort of around like
more popular expressions of music and a hot
topic kind of thing. And so last week
we had songs, uh, to celebrate Canada.
And we picked a handful of songs that
(40:22):
people, um, in our band who were putting the
music together felt like really
represented some great Canadian storytelling. And
then from that we're now like planning a
citywide great Canadian sing along just
to bring people together to
sing the most iconic
Canadian songs. And that is
(40:44):
not going to be a religious night, but it
is so very much based in
religious principles,
um, of like
building people up and coming together as a
community in the midst of crisis and,
um, looking for
expressions of unity
(41:06):
and clarity of telling our
story and like choosing
um, community rather than division. Like, I think
that those are things that the church should
be offering in times like this.
Uh, like what kind of spiritual
resources do you see people drawing on? Or
(41:27):
like
where do you think people are kind
of getting their
grounds, ground under them
spiritually?
>> Loren (41:40):
That's a good question. I've been
thinking about what I've been trying to do lately
as I officiate high
school sports. So
high school lacrosse season right now. So
every time the national anthem is played, I
just try to pray.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:59):
Hm.
>> Loren (41:59):
During the entire national anthem for our nation, for our
leaders, for their hearts to be changed,
those kind of things.
I think getting back to
what you were
saying similarly about
like, um, in Canada, people thinking about
(42:21):
like, what do they value? What can they
control? I think those are really good. Those are
really good kind of foundational
points to build from.
And I'm trying to think about examples because I
feel like, I think
again, to get partisan here for a moment, like the
(42:42):
Democrats in America have been floundering
for two or three months, and I think there's still some
kind of floundering. And it goes back to something
you said. I think part of
the problem, I think, with the Democratic messaging
in the 2024 election was this idea, uh,
of like, oh, let's just go back. We're
(43:03):
just going to keep going back to normal.
M and I think something that
the current president has been able to take
advantage of, I would say for ill,
is this idea that especially since 2016.
But, um, of course, since 2020, it's like
there's no normal to go back to. Things have
(43:23):
fundamentally changed. And I think that's the
biggest problem and the biggest thing I want to see
more from leaders in my
nation from the other side is like, okay, it's not just that we're
going to stop being terrible people
and not care about human beings,
but what are we going to be forward ourselves?
So that's like the most. When I'm seeing
(43:46):
things like that, that's what I'm most appreciative
of,
especially within the church of
how are we defining ourselves
in a positive light, talking about what we're, what
we're about, what we're for, how we're contributing
to our communities. Like, that's what I think
(44:07):
really intrigues me and I hope to see more of. Because
again, I think like you said, there's no going back to
normal. Even if in
two years in the states and the
Congress changes, even in three
years a new administration comes in,
there's still going to be like, no, we're not going to just try to, Reese,
(44:28):
press a reset button. So how can we live into
our values going forward?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:33):
Yeah, I think that's super important. I
think, like, in my
calmest and most charitable frame
of mind, um,
like, I recognize that the
polarization of opinion and
politics that is very much
happening in your neck of the woods in the States,
(44:56):
but also happens here in Canada,
like that there is a real
need to, um, interrogate
that and understand
what the
deep issues are that have left people
feeling so disenfranchised that they
(45:16):
are willing to take an
extreme route. Right. So I think
unless you take that seriously
going forward, any leader is going
to end up,
um,
end up
maybe like just
(45:39):
further amplifying those
divisions. Right.
>> Loren (45:45):
I want to speak to this in a different way because I'm reading
right now Nandra Root's new book Evangelism and the age of
despair. And his, his big point, Spoiler alert. Is
basically like, our, our culture
is just incredibly sad. And
he makes this really sort of shocking
point that I'd never thought about. He's like, we're so sad
(46:05):
and so disconnected that we have to pay people. Like, he's talking about,
like, ehar e no better help.
I don't know if that's being in Canada, but, uh, he's like, we're so
sad and we're so disconnected that we can't find
anybody to share in our sorrow other than paying
someone, which is just
heartbreaking. And I think, uh, like,
(46:26):
I'm sparked by this, by what you said,
Martha, about recognizing people's pain. Like, we've
got to enter into people's sorrow, as Root
would say it. And that's a profoundly
spiritual, faithful act, I
think.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
And like, we do have
resources as people of faith for doing
that, for talking about that.
I think that I'm really gonna ponder
that. And I'll need to read Nandra
Root's new book too.
(47:01):
Um, okay, so let's wrap up on a
more lighthearted note.
What are some non spiritual resources that are getting
you through these days, Loren?
>> Loren (47:11):
I mean, I'm being very active,
getting my steps in every day. Yeah,
Walking the dogs. Like I
said before we started recording, cleaning house a lot, keeping the
house in order. Uh, I'm a big schedule
person, so I am scheduling the heck out of my life
now because it just makes me feel less
scattered if I know what's coming up and
(47:34):
what I'm doing. But I think, like,
again, controlling what we can control.
For me, I'm trying to control what I can control.
Thinking about, again, what I really value in
life. Part of my work
decision was I want to see my kid more. I want to see my
kids more. And two nights this week, I've
(47:56):
walked to the park with my son to kick the soccer ball around
for ten minutes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:01):
Yeah, uh, those are the things
that you definitely want to be
prioritizing. Yeah, I have, like,
kind of similar resources
that I draw on. Like a lot of
running, a lot of walking.
Um, I do not clean the house. But I was
saying to you before we went on air that, uh, I
(48:22):
do find myself puttering in the kitchen
mostly. I mean, I do really enjoy,
um, baking and cooking. Cause I like to
eat so much. But I also like being able to
putter in the kitchen and listen
to podcast after podcast
after podcast. And being in an
election cycle right now, there's Just like
(48:45):
such an embarrassment of riches of political
podcasts to consume every day. So that,
in a weird way, just helps me feel
more centered about life
to kind of listen to what
smart people are saying about.
>> Loren (49:01):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:01):
The political landscape.
>> Loren (49:03):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:04):
Um, I'm really into watching
Survivor these days with my son.
And I think going back to what you said about,
like, that hockey game last month, it
is just fun to watch,
like, people duking it out
in a, uh, competition where the stakes
are just about money. Like, it's not
(49:26):
about money and being on
tv. It's not about, like,
destroying lives or, you
know, upending the world order or anything.
>> Loren (49:38):
Yeah, just. Just that little thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:40):
Yeah, just that little thing.
Okay, I'm gonna ask.
>> Loren (49:44):
I've gotta ask for our. For our American
listeners, like, what are some,
like, classic Canadian songs that.
I'm not a big music guy, but what are some
classic Canadian songs? We could jam off on
Spotify. Jam on. On Spotify?
Or like that. What. What would you say?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:05):
Well, I mean, there's obviously, like. There's
obviously like, the big Canadian
exports, like the ones who have
become, like, international stars.
So, you know, Joni Mitchell and Leonard
Cohen and Sarah McLachlan and Shania
Twain and Celine Dion and. And,
um, kind of all of those
(50:28):
really big, uh,
internationally
recognized, um, leaders
in the music industry.
Um, but if you want
kind of more niche Canadiana, ah,
then I would recommend listening to the Tragically
(50:48):
Hip.
>> Loren (50:49):
The Tragically Hip. I think I've heard of them.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:51):
The Tragically Hip. The, um,
lead singer died a couple of years ago, but
they are just, like, so
famous for being,
like, really kind of documenting,
um, Canadian storytelling in.
And like, they, uh. They're like my
(51:12):
generation's kind of
major band from the 1990s.
Like, they were part of the whole alt rock,
like,
um, movement.
Um, and like,
Gordon Lightfoot would be like a generation before
that. Again, somebody who just like, really,
(51:32):
really documented Canadian storytelling
and Canadiana.
Um,
um. You know, we've got lots
of, like, Kathleen Edwards is such a
great singer songwriter.
Um,
there's, um, a long
(51:53):
list that I could give you of just great
Canadian singer songwriters,
uh, and bands and so on, but those
would be the ones that are top of
the list when we're talking about
the stuff that,
um, everybody in Canada would feel like
they have a stake in some
(52:16):
of those names.
>> Loren (52:18):
There's a band that I like to listen to
occasionally. Metric.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:21):
I think they're catching them. Um, my daughter and I are
seeing them in May.
>> Loren (52:26):
Oh, wow. Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:27):
Yeah, we're really, really Big Metric fans.
I wouldn't say that they're, um. I mean, they're
extremely popular with.
>> Loren (52:35):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:35):
Like a generation, but I
wouldn't say that their songs are, like, kind of well
known across the whole Canadian
landscape. And my daughter was really surprised to even find out that
they're Canadian. But they are Canadian and they're
amazing. We're excited
about Metric.
>> Loren (52:54):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:54):
Yeah.
All right, well, shall we, um.
I was thinking we should maybe pray for
one another's countries and leaders
as we wrap up the podcast today.
So do you want me to lead off?
>> Loren (53:11):
Yeah, sure, sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:12):
Okay. Let us pray.
God of peace and guiding light, thank you
for the gift of this
conversation. Thank you for
people who continue to show
up to listen and talk
and wrestle and discern,
(53:34):
and thank you for
opportunities and space to
delve more deeply into the
dynam dynamics of our lives. I pray
for the United States, for their
leaders, for their
people, for
peace and
(53:56):
community and
love to lead
the way. I pray that the
gospel qualities of mercy and
respect for the dignity of every human being
will prevail.
And where there is
(54:19):
division, I pray that you grant
healing and unity.
And where there is
distress, I pray that you
guide the way forward in ways
that bring blessing and
help and prosperity to everyone.
>> Loren (54:43):
Lord, I pray for the nation and
people of Canada
as we are in and they are feeling
especially the turmoil and tumult of
so much change and disruption
in systems and
patterns. I pray for their leadership,
give them wisdom and discernment as they guide their
(55:05):
country. I pray for their people, help them to make
wise decisions as they especially
choose for an upcoming election.
I, uh, pray that you'd guide their hearts and minds
to, to do justice and to love
mercy and as Martha spoke to, to be gospel
centered in their actions. I, uh,
(55:26):
pray just for them to be good neighbors and, and
similarly the United States people
too. Thank you
for the history of our two nations.
Help us to recognize
and repent of our failings
and our faults,
(55:48):
and
to live and move forward in a
more godly and
just way. I pray.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:01):
Amen.
>> Loren (56:02):
Amen.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:03):
Well, Loren, I think that, uh,
texting and emailing aside, the next
time that we have like a fulsome, uh,
conversation with one another is probably going to
be in person.
>> Loren (56:16):
Could be. Yeah, yeah, it's coming up
quick.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:20):
It's coming up quick. And we can,
um, let our future Christian
community know about that. I'm sure that
we'll have some pictures and updates
to post on social media and
that'll be exciting to look forward to.
>> Loren (56:37):
Yeah, yeah. Ah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:39):
Okay, well, have a great rest of your day and
may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren (56:44):
God's peace be with you as well.
Okay. Foreign.
>> Loren Richmond (56:55):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(57:17):
do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source
for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:26):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is designed
to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
tools you need for impactful ministry.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:38):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am, um, co host of Future
Christian and today I am
so pleased to be joined by
my co Host, Loren Richmond
Jr. Hi Loren.
>> Loren (00:54):
Thank you for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:56):
Uh, we get to listen to one another's episodes
all the time and we're kind of back and
forth over text and email about
the podcast, but it is a treat to actually
book some time to catch up with one another.
>> Loren (01:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:13):
Yeah. So we thought that we would use our,
um, you know, like
season recap,
check in to talk a
little bit about Canada, uh, U.S.
relations. And you're
in Colorado, uh, and
I'm in Niagara,
(01:35):
and uh, we're on different
sides of what is suddenly a trade war.
Um, so we thought that we would talk
about those different perspectives and how we're
navigating it, how we're navigating it with our faith
communities, um, all of those things.
But I thought that before we got into
some of those, more,
(01:57):
um, political,
uh, updates that we might just do a bit of
a personal check in because, Loren, you've
had things going on in your
life, some, uh, vocational
transitions and stuff. Do you want to share with
our listeners, uh, what
(02:17):
has been happening for you?
>> Loren (02:19):
Yeah, well, I tried to hint at
this, I think in the past hoping
that there would be a, you know, I've talked about how carrying
Future Christian through several jobs or a few jobs,
and I hinted at I hope there'd be a fourth or fifth transition to carry it
through. So I'm fortunate to
hopefully be doing that here through a
new transition. So I'm going to be working kind of in a.
(02:42):
It's hard to think what the correct terminology would be, but I
guess I'll call it like a multi vocational
role centered around
church and ministry. I suppose. So I'll be working
part time as a hospital chaplain
part time for a ministry
nonprofit that supports worship
(03:03):
leaders and church leaders, and then
also for another small role
for a local nonprofit that's trying to help churches
develop land for affordable housing.
So really excited about these things. Obviously
represents a big transition for me and
my family. But um, something that's been helpful
for me as I've kind of been
(03:25):
through a period of discernment, so to speak,
trying to figure out what to do with my life, is
I've found some clarity
with the understanding that I still feel called to the
church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:39):
Mhm.
>> Loren (03:39):
To serve the church. And
some recognition. That doesn't mean that I have to have a
certain title. Right. I don't have to have the title of
pastor to be fulfilling my calling. And I think that's been a
helpful discernment for me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:53):
Yeah, I think that's really good. And I mean that does sound
like, I mean it sounds like a juggling act
to be clear, because,
um, I would imagine that
any of those roles could be on the all
consuming side of things. But to
me when you describe that, that sounds like a really
good combination
(04:15):
of your skill sets and gifts
and like the experience that you would bring to the
table. So I hope it
feels like really life giving to
be moving into that combination of
things.
>> Loren (04:30):
I mean, nerve wracking for sure,
but life giving in many ways, even when
I, even when it is some orientation at the hospital
with the uh, staff chaplain, it's
funny like
I talked to him about his job and
he's like, do you want, do you want a similar M role? I'm like,
(04:51):
not really. I mean the kind of
person I am, like, the thought of like having a 9 to 5 just
doing the same monotony is,
is not really my jam. But also
like, I mean, I just had an experience
yesterday or the day before outside a
hospital where I had this like mini pastoral care
moment. And it was just so profound. And
(05:14):
like we text a little bit about
this, right Martha? Or at least exchange I think on
socials about that. Like there's something
so profound and holy about
um, you know, pastoral care moments. Mhm. It's
almost like addicting I think, to me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:31):
Yeah. And I think like I
have a variety of friends who
have transitioned from, you know,
leading churches into other kinds of
ministries and expressions of ministry. And
it is like so important to
look beyond the language because,
(05:53):
um, like if God is calling you
to ministry, ministry
appears.
>> Loren (05:59):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:01):
You don't need the labels.
>> Loren (06:04):
I'm wondering this, Martha, what are your thoughts on this? Because I've been
thinking about this lately. It seems
like at the 5 or 10 year mark
for pastors,
a lot of folks, I don't know, it seems like
for men especially around like 40,
me, a few others I've seen, I don't Know if it's like up,
(06:24):
uh, for your neck of the woods. But it seems like
pastors, like, they either like
drop out the ministry entirely.
They go to work for like, sort of like what I'm doing,
like a parachurch ministry, nonprofit,
whatever word you want to use, or they just
like keep going. Like, what have you seen?
(06:45):
I'm curious.
>> Martha Tatarnic (06:46):
Yeah. Um, I mean, certainly
men and women of all
ages, like the dropout
rate is significant,
you know, Like, I think,
I think in the cohort ahead of
my husband, so he was ordained like a year
(07:07):
and a half ahead of me and the
cohort before him, like
with like by the time I was
in ministry, like none of them were left.
Like all of them had just
realized that it wasn't for
them. Um, and
(07:29):
lots of statistics around the dropout
rates through Covid and since COVID
Um, but at the same time, I have heard
lots of people kind of name
that post 40 into your
50s ministry zone, which I'm
just in now as
(07:50):
like being quite
fruitful. Um, mhm.
If you stay, you
know. Um, and
it definitely is a different,
uh, there are just like different possibilities that
open up when you're not
(08:10):
in the mode of trying to establish yourself, improve
yourself. And I sure found like in my
20s and early 30s, like
the need to prove that I
deserve to be there was.
>> Loren (08:24):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:25):
It was really high. And
I think there were kind of all sorts of ways in which I
act like, acted like such a. Know it all. I don't know
how people could stand being around me,
honestly.
>> Loren (08:37):
But same. Yeah, yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:41):
Um, so it's nice to be able
to let that go a little bit
and lean into all the things you don't know.
>> Loren (08:51):
Yeah, I'm wondering too. I'm thinking back
to one of my way past
guests, Ferguson and Packard, who talked
about, I think it was in their book about
this need for like different
or I guess I think as they described it, it was like this idea that like,
culturally, like the only way to become like a faith
leader is through like traditional
(09:14):
parish ordination. And it's like a,
uh, it's like a situation that
I've recognized even right now.
Like I. There's like this Christian
nonprofit forming in my neck of the woods that's
really based on like a social service type
model, you know, sprinkled in with a
faith foundation. But
(09:36):
they're like, what do we call you? As
Loren,
former pastor. So I think in some ways that's
why I've liked having this chaplain role, because I can
say, hey, I still have Some clergy status.
How else do you define yourself as a clergy or
faith leader when you don't have that? Pastor of
XYZ Church?
>> Martha Tatarnic (09:58):
Yeah, yeah,
I think it is
such a thing. And it's a thing that we're going to have
to figure out more and more because.
>> Loren (10:09):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:09):
Like there are just going to be so many more non
traditional forms of ministry and
we're going to have people come out of seminaries
who are not going to lead churches. So
something for us to uh. I think
the language has got to evolve a little bit.
>> Loren (10:30):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:32):
Yeah.
So any other big updates
about uh, I guess that is probably
all consuming at the moment. Getting
your feet wet in the new uh,
configuration.
>> Loren (10:47):
Yeah, I guess I should tease this. Right. So we were
just talking about it like Martha and I are planning
to connect in person in June I
think. So I'm excited about that.
Um, looking forward to taking a trip with my wife
and we'll connect in person as part of
that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:06):
Yeah, I think that it is long overdue.
Um, you know,
we've uh, been working together on this
for quite a while now and it's a
passion project for both of us. Um,
and we have never seen one another
in three dimensions, so.
>> Loren (11:26):
Right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:27):
It's going to be great. And you know, my
husband is from Niagara. Um,
he is excited to show you
around. Um, there's some great
wineries and lots of
local history and um, hopefully the
weather will be good and it's going to be,
(11:47):
it's going to be a lot of fun and I'm going to be on sabbatical at
that time.
>> Loren (11:51):
You can party.
>> Martha Tatarnic (11:53):
I can party, yeah. Um, I'm
planning on really living it up on Saturday nights
through the coming months.
>> Loren (12:01):
Um, I will say that's one thing I don't
miss about church
ministry is now on Saturdays I'm always
wanting to text my friends and be like, oh, I maybe shouldn't because
they're trying to get in the zone for Sunday.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:16):
Yeah, I always tell um,
people that when I retire I'm going to be a
Saturday party animal. Yeah, that's like my
goal. Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I, um, think it
would be helpful from my perspective and I'm guessing
from our Canadian listeners to
(12:39):
just get a bit of an
American perspective on how
the pretty
significant deterioration of relationship between
our countries is being perceived and
talked about from over
there. Um, and certainly I can share
with you some of what's going on here.
(13:02):
But uh, you know, you
elected a new president in November.
Like how, how is
the political landscape shaking down since
then, just generally.
>> Loren (13:15):
Well, let me first start with something
light hearted because this was what, a month ago now,
right? The. The NHL Four
nations hockey tournament.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:25):
Yeah.
>> Loren (13:26):
And oh my goodness, that was so much fun. As
a sports guy who loves, really
enjoys like watching a game where I really don't
have a real strong dog in the
fight, but also like, the game's got some juice to it, to use
a metaphor. And my goodness, the USA
Canada games had some juice to it. So I
(13:46):
owe Martha and adult
beverage when we connect in June because
we put a friendly bet on
the USA Canada what championship game. M. I
think it was. So that was, my
goodness, from a sporting perspective, a lot of fun just to kind
of see that juice and see those players play so
(14:07):
hard. You know, from a more serious perspective, I think it's
been kind of heartbreaking in
disorienting all the things you want to say
to see.
I mean, I think, just think, uh, you know, I think
about we're neighbors
and I'm sure
(14:27):
like many Canadians and
Americans, we know people
from each other's nation
and I think it's. It's sad to see
this unnecessary, uh,
unhelpful. I mean, whatever language you want to
use that's succumb and
(14:49):
for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be,
I don't know, uh, I'm at
a loss for words, I guess.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:56):
I guess. Well,
it's interesting to hear you say that and I appreciate
the emotion of what you're saying as well.
I read a New Yorker article, I think it was
last week that said, you know, like, Americans
don't particularly think about Canadians
except when they don't like an election
(15:17):
outcome and then they talk about moving to Canada.
Uh, but it's different in
Canada. I mean, in Canada we do think about
our American neighbors all the time. And it's not just
because, like, we're living next to the
world's biggest superpower.
It's also because, like, we're constantly consuming
(15:39):
American media and American music and
American television and
um, American products.
Like, we, um, you know, the whole
world consumes so much of
American, um, culture.
Right. And then we're living right next
door to the U.S.
(16:02):
um, as you say,
like, you know, I have family who
live in the States, I have colleagues who live
in the States. I have people in my
congregation who are American.
Um, we have enjoyed this
relationship with America that
(16:22):
maybe hasn't been completely like,
balanced. Again, like, we know we're a
small country population, uh,
wise and economically compared to the
States, but it has
Evolved as a very,
like, intertwined,
interconnected
relationship. And it
(16:44):
feels personal. Like, it
feels personal, um,
to have it suddenly so
severely compromised. Like, I would really liken it
to a divorce. You know, it's like we're trying
to, like,
separate into two separate
households. We're trying to,
(17:06):
um. Like, what, uh, was the.
What was the Gwyneth Paltrow,
um, strategic uncoupling or.
>> Loren (17:15):
Yeah, something.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:17):
It wasn't strategic. It was conscious
uncoupling. M. But, like,
it also hurts. Like, it,
uh, Obviously there's like just tons
of, um, worry
economically. And that goes for every
single person on the planet right now with the
stock markets going up and down and
(17:38):
threats of recession and, you know, even talk of
like a depression, like this kind of being like
the next major depression.
>> Loren (17:46):
That's where things get really scary.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:48):
They get really scary. Yeah.
Um, and yet
at the same time, like, it's also
just that profound
hurt of like, we
thought that we were in this together.
And now,
like our politicians, we're in the middle of
(18:11):
an election. We're electing a new prime
minister at the end of this month.
And, um, you know,
the ballot box question has now become
like, tariffs and Trump.
And, uh, our
leaders who are running for prime minister, most of
(18:31):
them are kind of saying, like, things will never be the same.
That's terrible.
>> Loren (18:37):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:40):
And it's such an unforced error. Like, there's
no reason for it. Like, we
had a good relationship
and, you know,
I. I also very much enjoyed
our little wager over the hockey game.
And I really love a
sports bandwagon that I can climb on when things
(19:03):
get exciting. I'm not like a year round
sports fan, but I can get really into a game. But I will
tell you, like, it felt like we had a
real, um,
like, dog in that fight. Like, yeah,
it, like the stakes were very high in Canada
because, like, we needed a morale boost. Just
like, has felt like we have been,
(19:27):
um, bullied for no
reason by the people we
thought were our friends and
partners.
>> Loren (19:36):
Yeah. It's interesting
how you share that perspective
as a Canadian, because I think it speaks
to something those of us in
the United States are so unaware of.
And that's our kind of cultural, to
use a big word, hegemony. Right.
Yeah, Cultural dominance. Like, it's just like the water we're
(19:59):
swimming in. So we don't think about, like, how much of the
world is impacted by our
media and our economics and our soft power,
so to speak. And
it does, even beyond the
political. I can't Help but think
even to.
(20:20):
Even to church and Christianity. Like, I wonder
what will be like the impact
in church world, like
the correlation or collaboration or now
lack thereof. Perhaps because
there's such US Dominance in
(20:43):
the culture, worldwide culture. What do you
think?
>> Martha Tatarnic (20:49):
I mean, I have never
seen anything like it in
Canada. And
if there is a silver lining in all of
this, it is the
exceptional sort of
intentional investment in what it is to be
(21:10):
Canadian in a way that I have never
experienced in my lifetime. I mean, Canadians
are like, famously
sort of apologetic and that goes
for like, just our
basic identity. Like, we can just kind of be
apologetic about not being
American or like. Or not being as big
(21:33):
as America or as influential or whatever.
And suddenly like, there's just such an
investment in Canadian
content and supporting Canadian business
and Canadian products and Canadian
storytelling and Canadian music
and, um, just like
re evaluating how much
(21:56):
good there actually is here in a way that
is very easy to,
um, not think about
because again, we just sort
of. It's the water we swim in too, that you
turn on Netflix and you watch
American programming. Like, it's,
um. Like I watch American
(22:19):
reality shows, reality TV
shows. I don't watch a ton of
Canadian content, but
that like,
clarity, um, around just, okay, if
we care about being a sovereign nation, then
let's act like it. And I,
(22:41):
I imagine that to maybe a
lesser degree that's going on all around the world
because, yeah, um,
suddenly everybody's impacted by
tariff announcements and
um, a sense of like, nobody
particularly being off the hook, certainly
(23:01):
for more than a few days at a time. So.
Yeah, um,
I.
>> Loren (23:09):
Sorry, I was. Sorry to cut you off. I was just going to
say I. I think it's
interesting a. Like, there's
similar, like, it thinks.
To me, I think of like the.
There's not so much boycotting of certain companies,
although certainly Tesla,
(23:30):
their numbers are suffering because
of the radioactivity around Musk.
For good reason, if I can be frank.
Um, but it does seem like a
good
step forward to think, what can I control?
I can control where my dollars go
or my finances go or where I'm investing my time and
(23:51):
resources. I'm also thinking, Martha, and I think
this is especially true, at least in some of
the things that I've seen. Like, I loved that clip. I
think it was you sent me or I saw of like Carney
and who's the. Who's the.
Mike Myers, right? Like, yeah, great.
Like, good, good,
(24:11):
good club propaganda commercial.
But of like, there's kind of this theory that
like, people don't have
any values other than money. Like, I
think that's like I was listening to another non
religious podcast the other
day and saying like in
America, like the, the number one value is people's
(24:34):
economics, their, their dollars. Like what's gonna.
Like that's why the swing voters voted for Trump because
they thought like, he's gonna impact my wallet
the most financially.
>> Martha Tatarnic (24:44):
Well, they were right. Like he certainly is
impacting their wallet, but maybe not in the way
they expected.
>> Loren (24:52):
Oh my gosh, Martha with a
burn. Um,
but Martha, you're demonstrating like
people have other values. Like
I mean, Greenland, right? Like that's a
whole thing similar like, oh, US wants to take over
Greenland and Greens. Like, no, no thanks, we're
(25:12):
good. You're talking about it yourself. Like this
kind of like pride of, this national
pride of like that goes beyond like dollars and
cents. And I feel like if I can
go philosophical here, that's, I think the
biggest problem, I think in
America is several people point out
(25:32):
like the number one
moniker or identification thing
people say about themselves in America is based on their
political ideology. Like I'm a Democrat first, I'm
a Republican first. I'm a progressive first. To
me when I talk, what's my number one
moniker? Like I'm a Christian, I'm a father, I'm a husband,
(25:53):
not necessarily in that order, but you know, like my
political ideology. I would not put that
gosh in the top five, top ten.
So do you think like that's a big cultural
missing. Not missing point. But
what am I trying to say?
Something certain leaders in my nation are not
(26:15):
accounting for
is that people have
a value other than just
money as their number one. Um, their value
of either money or their political ideology
as like their number one identity. Like you mentioned,
for Canadians, like people are rallying around
(26:36):
their national pride. Right?
>> Martha Tatarnic (26:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean the sense
in Canada, and
again like this is our sense. I'm sure
that the reporting is quite different
there. But the sense in Canada is
that the tariff,
the uh, trade war was initiated
(26:58):
legitimately with the hope
that Canada would
succumb to economic pressure and become
the 51st state. Because Canada
is extremely rich in very
valuable natural resources
and critical minerals that are going
to become ever more essential in
(27:21):
the years ahead. Um, that like
the, the talk of the 51st state
and the, our prime minister
becoming a governor, um, that
that was more than just sort of like
needling, that um, that there
was a hope that
um, that this would just, we would
(27:43):
fold. Right.
>> Loren (27:44):
And whenever there's like, oh, I'M just joking kind
of language. There's always some truth behind it.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:50):
Yeah, yeah. And,
like, the narrative in Canada
anyway is that, like, don't
underestimate us. Like,
um, our national hashtag at the moment is
elbows up. And, like, that's a
hockey term, as I understand it. Yeah.
>> Loren (28:09):
Explain that for our non Canadian listeners.
>> Martha Tatarnic (28:11):
Yeah, well, and I kind of have to explain it
as a non hockey person
to people because I had to
look it up. But, like, it is a hockey term of,
like, sort of defiance. Uh,
right. Like, of
aggression. Um, and, like,
(28:31):
you're gonna come at us, like, elbows up.
Like, we're not buckling. We're not, as you
said, like, okay, you can apply
financial pressure, but don't expect that we're
gonna just,
like, fold into the United
States. We do actually have a country
(28:51):
and an identity that we care profoundly.
And it has been. I would not,
by any means, say that any of this is
good, but it is an upside
for Canada to just be really clear about,
um, feeling good about being
Canadian.
>> Loren (29:10):
Right, right.
>> Martha Tatarnic (29:13):
Yeah.
I'm interested in
what get said in
pulpits, especially from
mainline progressive
Christians. Obviously, there
was the really big moment of Bishop
Marianne Buddy. I think her last name
(29:35):
is pronounced Buddy, um,
speaking like truth to power. And I thought
in such a gracious way.
Um, just calling for mercy.
Uh,
I have had a couple of
sermons here at St. George's and my colleague
Tom has had some sermons as
(29:56):
well. I always run through my sermon with
my son before I preach on a Sunday
morning, and twice he has
reacted to the sermon by saying,
uh, like, are you sure that you want
to be that political? And
to me, I don't think I'm being political. I think I'm
speaking to, like,
(30:19):
people's anxieties and
what people are talking about and worrying
about and caring about right now. Like, I'm not trying to
throw down the gauntlet politically. I'm just trying to
speak to what I'm hearing and
people are feeling.
Um, but, like, it does
(30:41):
end up with sermons
that talk about the realities
of Trump and
U.S. canada relations and
stuff. Like,
is there similar messaging
happening in American pulpits?
>> Loren (31:02):
I think when I was talking about Bishop
Buddy's sermon with my friends
who are all actively preaching regularly,
they appreciated what she had to say, but
were also thinking, like, boy, it might be
harder
depending, uh, on the polity. Right. Like, the congregational polity, for
(31:24):
instance, in a lot of denominations or a few
denominations in the States is such, like, if you
anger the Karnagons, they can run you out of town.
So there's some
hesitancy about this
pressure to be like, oh, we should all be, like Bishop Buddy and, like, speak
truth to power, because, like,
(31:44):
some of us could lose our jobs. That being said, I think
there's a big admiration
for her and what she said and just the
guts to do that. And I
think. I think that
line of preaching is really
valuable. I'm thinking, again, I'm not preaching
regularly, but even in the church I
(32:05):
attend. A couple weeks ago, a
sermon was given about based on psalms.
I can't remember the psalm
specifically. And I think the church that I
would attend would
broadly be looked at as more purplish,
if that makes sense. Like, kind of middle has
Republicans, Democrats,
(32:28):
but, like, the. The guy who's speaking
gave a sermon, and he made the point, like,
leaders, whether
they're church leaders, whether political leaders, like, you have to care about
people. And that seems like a pretty
basic sermon, but also
it's kind of political these days. You can't not
(32:49):
care about individuals. And I
think, similarly, Bishop Buddy
said, have mercy on these people. I think
that's an approach because.
I don't know. I mean, like, let's be honest, too, about this,
Martha. Like, I don't know if you've seen this. Like, there's this big
movement, uh, amongst some
conservative Christians about, like, saying empathy is
(33:11):
a sin, which is just preposterous to me,
so.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:15):
Oh, my gosh.
>> Loren (33:16):
Yeah. Even there, there's some pushback about, like,
it's troubling. I mean, it is. I mean,
I, uh, think that's what's most troubling, is just how
callousness and carelessness has been.
(33:37):
Has become, like, the rule of the day. I think that's
what's most heartbreaking to me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:43):
Yeah. It seems like we're setting the bar
extremely low
just to say, like, okay, mercy is a
gospel quality.
That seems like, uh, a bar that we
should all be able to get across.
Right. Like, that's really
worrisome if that is considered,
(34:06):
um, too
divisive.
>> Loren (34:10):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:12):
We were having a conversation at parish
council about sending a letter
of support to Bishop Buddy just to
say, you know, we're grateful for your
words and we're praying for you
in, like, any pushback that you're
experiencing. And it was, you know, a
(34:33):
really nice letter that,
uh, somebody on our ministry team crafted,
and we just wanted to be able to sign it as a
parish council. And there were some
people just, like, a little concerned. Like, we
don't want to be divisive. We don't want people to feel like if
they have a different view politically, that they
can't, um, that
(34:54):
they're kind of being ostracized or
whatever. And we felt like
the letter was not framed in a way that was
divisive, that it was just kind of speaking
to basic core gospel values.
And one of the
elders of our congregation,
um, you know, he just
(35:16):
said like, this is a time
for courage and
like all of us need to
um, get ready to use our
voices to, to speak up
for what we know is right.
And everybody signed the
letter, you know, like it was
(35:39):
quite, um, quite stirring.
But it's not
to diminish,
um, that
it can feel really complicated
trying to navigate that.
>> Loren (35:55):
Yeah. And I suppose speaking to some of those shared values
can be helpful. Like I'm thinking like my
lucky representative who I disagree with
on many points, to be vague.
I've been trying to communicate with him,
you know, when I send him a letter or make a phone
call. Seems like every week or every couple
(36:17):
weeks. Right. Like
on his social media bios, like the
first thing it says, like Christian
interest. I'll just be like, listen,
there's three things we should all be to agree on.
Humans are made in the image of God. Christ
(36:37):
died for all. God loves all.
We can agree on that. Can we
treat our fellow human beings,
especially if you claim to be a Christian from
that working foundation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (36:52):
Yeah, that seems like just
such, ah, an important,
like common ground to claim.
>> Loren (37:02):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:03):
And you said you haven't gotten any response.
>> Loren (37:06):
I mean, you know, just
the kind of standard form letter response
emails. So we'll see. I mean, I,
it's complicated, right? It's, who
knows. And because I certainly, I don't want
to, I feel like my perspective
is that any kind of real harsh thing is just gonna be
(37:26):
like tuned out, you
know, as this, the classic, like, oh, there's just some angry
liberal. I know, let's ignore him.
So I'm thinking like, what's a way that I can communicate in a way
that speaks in a way
that he'll listen, but also like
won't just be turned out as
(37:47):
liberal talking points, so to speak.
>> Martha Tatarnic (37:50):
Yeah, I know. Um, I think
that's really important, like when we're
talking across political divides is
trying to establish that common ground and
you know, in lots of ways, like, I think
that like
pastors are uniquely
(38:11):
positioned to theoretically be able to do
that because, you know, we're constantly
speaking to a uh, very mixed crowd
of people who come from a lot of different backgrounds
and a Lot of different perspectives and
ages and stages and affiliations and so on.
And yeah, you want to
(38:31):
lay claim to. Okay, here are the things
that unite us rather than divide us.
Um,
but then
it does feel like some of those basics
are maybe a step too far at the moment.
>> Loren (38:51):
Yeah. Which is very sad.
>> Martha Tatarnic (38:53):
Yeah.
Um, I've been
obviously giving a lot of
thought to how
to minister to people in times
of such significant anxiety. And,
and the anxiety is really high
in Canada right now and I think it is in the States
(39:16):
as well for lots of people.
Um, and
you know, in some ways
I think that being in the midst
of a crisis does
give clarity of purpose.
Like there is
this sort of like Covid. Like there
(39:38):
is this reality that we're all trying to
navigate. And like, speaking to that
is really important, whether it's from the pulpit
or elsewhere.
Um,
one of the things that has been really important in
my faith community right now is
music. We, um,
(40:01):
have like a Wednesday night service
gathering once a month that
uh, is sort of around like
more popular expressions of music and a hot
topic kind of thing. And so last week
we had songs, uh, to celebrate Canada.
And we picked a handful of songs that
(40:22):
people, um, in our band who were putting the
music together felt like really
represented some great Canadian storytelling. And
then from that we're now like planning a
citywide great Canadian sing along just
to bring people together to
sing the most iconic
Canadian songs. And that is
(40:44):
not going to be a religious night, but it
is so very much based in
religious principles,
um, of like
building people up and coming together as a
community in the midst of crisis and,
um, looking for
expressions of unity
(41:06):
and clarity of telling our
story and like choosing
um, community rather than division. Like, I think
that those are things that the church should
be offering in times like this.
Uh, like what kind of spiritual
resources do you see people drawing on? Or
(41:27):
like
where do you think people are kind
of getting their
grounds, ground under them
spiritually?
>> Loren (41:40):
That's a good question. I've been
thinking about what I've been trying to do lately
as I officiate high
school sports. So
high school lacrosse season right now. So
every time the national anthem is played, I
just try to pray.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:59):
Hm.
>> Loren (41:59):
During the entire national anthem for our nation, for our
leaders, for their hearts to be changed,
those kind of things.
I think getting back to
what you were
saying similarly about
like, um, in Canada, people thinking about
(42:21):
like, what do they value? What can they
control? I think those are really good. Those are
really good kind of foundational
points to build from.
And I'm trying to think about examples because I
feel like, I think
again, to get partisan here for a moment, like the
(42:42):
Democrats in America have been floundering
for two or three months, and I think there's still some
kind of floundering. And it goes back to something
you said. I think part of
the problem, I think, with the Democratic messaging
in the 2024 election was this idea, uh,
of like, oh, let's just go back. We're
(43:03):
just going to keep going back to normal.
M and I think something that
the current president has been able to take
advantage of, I would say for ill,
is this idea that especially since 2016.
But, um, of course, since 2020, it's like
there's no normal to go back to. Things have
(43:23):
fundamentally changed. And I think that's the
biggest problem and the biggest thing I want to see
more from leaders in my
nation from the other side is like, okay, it's not just that we're
going to stop being terrible people
and not care about human beings,
but what are we going to be forward ourselves?
So that's like the most. When I'm seeing
(43:46):
things like that, that's what I'm most appreciative
of,
especially within the church of
how are we defining ourselves
in a positive light, talking about what we're, what
we're about, what we're for, how we're contributing
to our communities. Like, that's what I think
(44:07):
really intrigues me and I hope to see more of. Because
again, I think like you said, there's no going back to
normal. Even if in
two years in the states and the
Congress changes, even in three
years a new administration comes in,
there's still going to be like, no, we're not going to just try to, Reese,
(44:28):
press a reset button. So how can we live into
our values going forward?
>> Martha Tatarnic (44:33):
Yeah, I think that's super important. I
think, like, in my
calmest and most charitable frame
of mind, um,
like, I recognize that the
polarization of opinion and
politics that is very much
happening in your neck of the woods in the States,
(44:56):
but also happens here in Canada,
like that there is a real
need to, um, interrogate
that and understand
what the
deep issues are that have left people
feeling so disenfranchised that they
(45:16):
are willing to take an
extreme route. Right. So I think
unless you take that seriously
going forward, any leader is going
to end up,
um,
end up
maybe like just
(45:39):
further amplifying those
divisions. Right.
>> Loren (45:45):
I want to speak to this in a different way because I'm reading
right now Nandra Root's new book Evangelism and the age of
despair. And his, his big point, Spoiler alert. Is
basically like, our, our culture
is just incredibly sad. And
he makes this really sort of shocking
point that I'd never thought about. He's like, we're so sad
(46:05):
and so disconnected that we have to pay people. Like, he's talking about,
like, ehar e no better help.
I don't know if that's being in Canada, but, uh, he's like, we're so
sad and we're so disconnected that we can't find
anybody to share in our sorrow other than paying
someone, which is just
heartbreaking. And I think, uh, like,
(46:26):
I'm sparked by this, by what you said,
Martha, about recognizing people's pain. Like, we've
got to enter into people's sorrow, as Root
would say it. And that's a profoundly
spiritual, faithful act, I
think.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
And like, we do have
resources as people of faith for doing
that, for talking about that.
I think that I'm really gonna ponder
that. And I'll need to read Nandra
Root's new book too.
(47:01):
Um, okay, so let's wrap up on a
more lighthearted note.
What are some non spiritual resources that are getting
you through these days, Loren?
>> Loren (47:11):
I mean, I'm being very active,
getting my steps in every day. Yeah,
Walking the dogs. Like I
said before we started recording, cleaning house a lot, keeping the
house in order. Uh, I'm a big schedule
person, so I am scheduling the heck out of my life
now because it just makes me feel less
scattered if I know what's coming up and
(47:34):
what I'm doing. But I think, like,
again, controlling what we can control.
For me, I'm trying to control what I can control.
Thinking about, again, what I really value in
life. Part of my work
decision was I want to see my kid more. I want to see my
kids more. And two nights this week, I've
(47:56):
walked to the park with my son to kick the soccer ball around
for ten minutes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (48:01):
Yeah, uh, those are the things
that you definitely want to be
prioritizing. Yeah, I have, like,
kind of similar resources
that I draw on. Like a lot of
running, a lot of walking.
Um, I do not clean the house. But I was
saying to you before we went on air that, uh, I
(48:22):
do find myself puttering in the kitchen
mostly. I mean, I do really enjoy,
um, baking and cooking. Cause I like to
eat so much. But I also like being able to
putter in the kitchen and listen
to podcast after podcast
after podcast. And being in an
election cycle right now, there's Just like
(48:45):
such an embarrassment of riches of political
podcasts to consume every day. So that,
in a weird way, just helps me feel
more centered about life
to kind of listen to what
smart people are saying about.
>> Loren (49:01):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:01):
The political landscape.
>> Loren (49:03):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:04):
Um, I'm really into watching
Survivor these days with my son.
And I think going back to what you said about,
like, that hockey game last month, it
is just fun to watch,
like, people duking it out
in a, uh, competition where the stakes
are just about money. Like, it's not
(49:26):
about money and being on
tv. It's not about, like,
destroying lives or, you
know, upending the world order or anything.
>> Loren (49:38):
Yeah, just. Just that little thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:40):
Yeah, just that little thing.
Okay, I'm gonna ask.
>> Loren (49:44):
I've gotta ask for our. For our American
listeners, like, what are some,
like, classic Canadian songs that.
I'm not a big music guy, but what are some
classic Canadian songs? We could jam off on
Spotify. Jam on. On Spotify?
Or like that. What. What would you say?
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:05):
Well, I mean, there's obviously, like. There's
obviously like, the big Canadian
exports, like the ones who have
become, like, international stars.
So, you know, Joni Mitchell and Leonard
Cohen and Sarah McLachlan and Shania
Twain and Celine Dion and. And,
um, kind of all of those
(50:28):
really big, uh,
internationally
recognized, um, leaders
in the music industry.
Um, but if you want
kind of more niche Canadiana, ah,
then I would recommend listening to the Tragically
(50:48):
Hip.
>> Loren (50:49):
The Tragically Hip. I think I've heard of them.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:51):
The Tragically Hip. The, um,
lead singer died a couple of years ago, but
they are just, like, so
famous for being,
like, really kind of documenting,
um, Canadian storytelling in.
And like, they, uh. They're like my
(51:12):
generation's kind of
major band from the 1990s.
Like, they were part of the whole alt rock,
like,
um, movement.
Um, and like,
Gordon Lightfoot would be like a generation before
that. Again, somebody who just like, really,
(51:32):
really documented Canadian storytelling
and Canadiana.
Um,
um. You know, we've got lots
of, like, Kathleen Edwards is such a
great singer songwriter.
Um,
there's, um, a long
(51:53):
list that I could give you of just great
Canadian singer songwriters,
uh, and bands and so on, but those
would be the ones that are top of
the list when we're talking about
the stuff that,
um, everybody in Canada would feel like
they have a stake in some
(52:16):
of those names.
>> Loren (52:18):
There's a band that I like to listen to
occasionally. Metric.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:21):
I think they're catching them. Um, my daughter and I are
seeing them in May.
>> Loren (52:26):
Oh, wow. Okay.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:27):
Yeah, we're really, really Big Metric fans.
I wouldn't say that they're, um. I mean, they're
extremely popular with.
>> Loren (52:35):
Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:35):
Like a generation, but I
wouldn't say that their songs are, like, kind of well
known across the whole Canadian
landscape. And my daughter was really surprised to even find out that
they're Canadian. But they are Canadian and they're
amazing. We're excited
about Metric.
>> Loren (52:54):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:54):
Yeah.
All right, well, shall we, um.
I was thinking we should maybe pray for
one another's countries and leaders
as we wrap up the podcast today.
So do you want me to lead off?
>> Loren (53:11):
Yeah, sure, sure.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:12):
Okay. Let us pray.
God of peace and guiding light, thank you
for the gift of this
conversation. Thank you for
people who continue to show
up to listen and talk
and wrestle and discern,
(53:34):
and thank you for
opportunities and space to
delve more deeply into the
dynam dynamics of our lives. I pray
for the United States, for their
leaders, for their
people, for
peace and
(53:56):
community and
love to lead
the way. I pray that the
gospel qualities of mercy and
respect for the dignity of every human being
will prevail.
And where there is
(54:19):
division, I pray that you grant
healing and unity.
And where there is
distress, I pray that you
guide the way forward in ways
that bring blessing and
help and prosperity to everyone.
>> Loren (54:43):
Lord, I pray for the nation and
people of Canada
as we are in and they are feeling
especially the turmoil and tumult of
so much change and disruption
in systems and
patterns. I pray for their leadership,
give them wisdom and discernment as they guide their
(55:05):
country. I pray for their people, help them to make
wise decisions as they especially
choose for an upcoming election.
I, uh, pray that you'd guide their hearts and minds
to, to do justice and to love
mercy and as Martha spoke to, to be gospel
centered in their actions. I, uh,
(55:26):
pray just for them to be good neighbors and, and
similarly the United States people
too. Thank you
for the history of our two nations.
Help us to recognize
and repent of our failings
and our faults,
(55:48):
and
to live and move forward in a
more godly and
just way. I pray.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:01):
Amen.
>> Loren (56:02):
Amen.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:03):
Well, Loren, I think that, uh,
texting and emailing aside, the next
time that we have like a fulsome, uh,
conversation with one another is probably going to
be in person.
>> Loren (56:16):
Could be. Yeah, yeah, it's coming up
quick.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:20):
It's coming up quick. And we can,
um, let our future Christian
community know about that. I'm sure that
we'll have some pictures and updates
to post on social media and
that'll be exciting to look forward to.
>> Loren (56:37):
Yeah, yeah. Ah, absolutely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:39):
Okay, well, have a great rest of your day and
may God's peace be with you.
>> Loren (56:44):
God's peace be with you as well.
Okay. Foreign.
>> Loren Richmond (56:55):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(57:17):
do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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