July 1, 2025 • 47 mins
What if the path to hope isn’t found in overcoming pain, but in naming it? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. speaks with Dr. May Young, Associate Professor of Biblical Studies at Taylor University and author of Walking with God Through the Valley: Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. Together, they explore why lament—too often overlooked in modern Christianity—is not just a personal cry, but a prophetic act of faith. Dr. Young vulnerably shares from her own experience of heartbreak and disorientation, and how discovering the biblical practice of lament became a turning point in her spiritual life. From the Psalms to the prophets, she explains how lament gives believers a faithful way to grieve, resist injustice, and grow in spiritual resilience—even when nothing changes.
Topics explored:
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Why biblical lament is more than venting—it's rooted in God’s character and promises
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How lament helps churches stand with the suffering and resist apathy
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Why modern worship often skips lament, and why that’s a problem
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How unprocessed pain from the COVID era may still be shaping us
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The difference between stoic acceptance and faithful sorrow
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What it means to trust God when healing or justice may not come on our timeline
May Young (PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School) is associate professor of biblical studies and chairs the Department of Biblical Studies, Christian Ministries, Intercultural Studies, and Philosophy at Taylor University. She has contributed to several volumes focused on lament, including Reading the Psalms Theologically (Lexham) and World Christianity and COVID-19: Discourses and Perspective (Routledge). She is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Biblical Literature and serves on the board of directors of the Institute of Biblical Research, as well as the editorial board for Sacred Roots.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 May Young's book: https://www.ivpress.com/walking-with-god-through-the-valley
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
Dr. May Young. Dr. Young
is Associate professor of Biblical Studies
and chairs the Department of Biblical Studies,
Christian Ministries, Intercultural Studies
and Philosophy at Taylor University.
(01:04):
She has contributed to several volumes focused
on Lament, including Reading the Psalms,
Theologically and World
Christianity and COVID 19
Discourses and Perspective. She is
a member of the Evangelical Theological Society
and the Society of Biblical Literature
and serves on the Board of Directors of the
(01:26):
Institute of Biblical Research as well as
the editorial board for Sacred Roots.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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(01:47):
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uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:11):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined by
Dr. Mae Young. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> May Young (02:20):
Thank you for having me.
>> Loren (02:22):
Yeah, thank you for being here. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Uh, anything else you want to say about yourself before we begin?
>> May Young (02:29):
Um, let's see. I guess to
let our hearers know a little bit about me. I
enjoy hiking. Um, I enjoy,
uh, action movies.
Um, and then as for TV
shows, I kind of like the crime shows that are on prime
time, like the FBI and cis. I
(02:50):
don't know why I'm drawn to action and crime.
Maybe that's why I need to lament.
>> Loren (02:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So are you going to see the new.
When does the new Mission Impossible come out? Are you going to see that?
>> May Young (03:02):
Uh, yeah. You know what? I think I'd like to, um. I think it's
gonna come out, actually. Isn't it coming out
later this month or so? I don't know. I didn't really follow
that, but yes, I probably like to
watch.
>> Loren (03:14):
Do you have, like, a top three top favorite like
action movies?
>> May Young (03:19):
Well, you know, I used to really like the Marvel
franchise.
>> Loren (03:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> May Young (03:24):
But in the more recent movies, I don't feel like
they have been that good. Although I heard that the
most recent one was supposed to be good, so I don't know. I have to
yet watch that and see.
>> Loren (03:34):
Yeah. What is that the
camera, what it's called?
>> May Young (03:40):
I actually don't remember.
>> Loren (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.
Um, well, lest we get
too deep into action movies in the MCU
universe here, share, if you
would, just about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what
looked like today.
>> May Young (04:00):
Sure. You know, I think there was a turning point in
my high school years, um,
when in the past I felt that,
um, being a Christian, you know, I saw
myself as a Christian, but I didn't
really, uh, see myself
fully surrendered in every aspect of my life
(04:21):
to the Lord. Um, and that particularly
was maybe in the area of, uh, even
vocation at that time in high school.
Um, and so there was a turning point in my life
where, you know, I had my own
plans of what I wanted for my future. And
I was listening to a sermon, and it wasn't anything like
(04:41):
spectacular or anything, but it was just the content
was the pastor was just really challenging me, saying,
you know, where are you investing? Are you investing in
eternal things or just things in
this life? And I had to be
honest, and I felt like I wasn't really investing in eternal things.
I was just thinking more about the future and what that might look
(05:02):
like here and now.
Um, and that was when the Lord challenged
me to say, you know, if I
called you to a certain vocation, would you surrender
that to me? Uh, even if it's going to the mission
field or, uh, doing some kind
of ministry? And at that point, you
(05:22):
know, that had never crossed my mind, and I kind of.
It was probably one of those fears like, oh, no, he's going to call me in
the mission field.
>> Loren (05:29):
Right, right.
>> May Young (05:30):
But I had to come to that place and I had to say, you
know, um, this life is
not my own, and it belongs to the
Lord. And so I said, lord, if you.
Whatever you want, if you're calling me to the mission field, that's
fine, or however you wanted to do it. And
that took me to a turning point in my life to
(05:51):
realize that even my future and
my vocation, everything belongs to God.
>> Loren (05:56):
Uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
What has been some spiritual practices, some spiritual disciplines
that have kind of helped you, you're willing to share?
>> May Young (06:04):
Sure. I think um, probably in
the more recent years,
I would say, the practice of
fasting.
>> Loren (06:14):
Uh-huh.
>> May Young (06:15):
You know, I feel like
that, you know,
um, living in the US
and having a lot, uh, at our
disposal. And I love food.
Fasting is never easy. You know, fasting is
just, you know, even though I
(06:38):
do, if no matter how long I practice it, it's
kind of like. It's always just hard to
not, you know, uh, to kind of just say,
you know, I'm going to put that aside to seek the Lord
and. But I feel like it's very
meaningful and has taught me
(06:58):
about self control, um, taught
me about, you know,
um, not necessarily always having
my way or,
um, always just satisfying my flesh,
um, and knowing
how to wait on the Lord,
um, and wait on his timing.
>> Loren (07:20):
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing that. That's really,
uh, enlightening.
Well, we're here to talk with Mae about her book,
Walking with God. Excuse me. Walking with God
through the Valley. Recovering the Purpose
of Biblical Lament. And
I suppose we'll ask this question just to get things started to kind of
(07:41):
boilerplate. Like, tell me about what inspired the
book. What made you want to write it?
>> May Young (07:46):
Sure. Uh, what inspired me, I
guess, was actually a very difficult time in my own life.
Um, which, you know,
I think up to that. Up to, I guess,
a certain, you know, growing up in the church, you know,
I knew that, you know, suffering is
part of the Christian life and difficult times.
(08:07):
But, uh, when I experienced a
time when I was
a young wife and we were church planting and
my, um, ex husband was
unfaithful, it was like I didn't know what to
do. Um, felt like
the rug was pulled underneath my feet,
(08:28):
and I didn't know what life
would be like in the future. And everything just
was very scary and very, you know,
difficult and just. I just
came to a point where I didn't know what was next.
And, um, it
just almost felt like, you know, I was
(08:49):
looking over a cliff in some ways, like, what do I
do now? What happens now? What happens in life? And,
you know, it's not what I expected
in any way. Um, about
life, marriage, future,
and having to grapple with that,
um, and my own faith and God's
faithfulness, um, and just really
(09:12):
leaning into God during that time.
Um, I really. That was actually the first time
that I even thought about lament, because I really never even thought
about the concept of lament. We never really heard about that growing up
in the church, to be honest. Like, I never.
I didn't Even know about the concept, really.
Um, but I found myself during that
(09:33):
time just, like, praying and
reading the psalms and, like, crying
and, you know, for, like,
that was the only thing that would actually bring
comfort into my heart.
>> Loren (09:46):
Wow.
>> May Young (09:46):
And I was just thinking, like, you know,
what happens? Like, no one prepares
you for what happens when you're
going through difficult times and
you wake up the next day and nothing changes.
Uh, or you wake up the next day again and
nothing changes, because you're always, always, like, hoping
(10:08):
for something to change and something to
be better in some ways. But how do you handle it
when something is
broken and it's
not changing? You know,
um, do we process. How do we process
that kind of pain and doubt
and how do we trust God? And I
(10:31):
really found that during that time
of struggle, that God was closer to me
than ever. Um, and that he
was, you know, uh, like,
when I felt like I hit rock bottom and he was the
rock.
>> Loren (10:47):
Wow.
>> May Young (10:47):
And, um. And I. And I was. And I. And then when
I thought about that, I was like, how come I
never really learned about this in the
church? You know, how come, you know, this is not something that we
talk about when, you know, uh.
Because something that I mentioned in my book is, like,
sometimes a lot of times what we hear about is
(11:08):
after people have gone through difficult times,
they talk about how they've
overcome. But how about when you're in that time?
You know, how about when you don't feel like you're overcoming and you
feel like, is there something wrong with me that I'm not
overcoming? Is there something wrong with me that nothing's changing?
Does God not love me? Is, you know, is something happening? Is
(11:28):
this judgment? You, uh, know, like, all these questions
that come into our heads instead of really, like,
realizing in the midst of our suffering and
pain that, you know, there's something called biblical
lament that God wants us to come to him,
to pray and to leave these pains and process
these pains in his presence in the midst of it,
(11:49):
instead of just waiting for, you know, that. That
triumphant, you know, overcoming.
>> Loren (11:55):
Yeah. You shared so much there. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
that. You know, I'm struck by something you said. I'm not sure
if. If I'm reminded of something from your book or from another
book. This idea of, like,
overcoming so much of.
Especially, like, modern worship songs, right? Are this.
Like, there's no, like,
(12:15):
I feel like you write about this, but there's no, like, lamet songs.
Like, they're all, like, I've overcome songs.
And that's a hard place for that.
>> May Young (12:24):
There's not a place for that.
>> Loren (12:25):
Yeah, right.
>> May Young (12:26):
I think that's great, and I think people do need that,
but I think we also need to know what happens
in that process too. And I think people don't
know. We just want to jump to the
overcoming. I think that's what. And then
when we don't feel that, then we feel there's something
wrong with us because we don't know that process.
>> Loren (12:48):
Yes. So good.
Well, let's talk about, we're kind of talking around this,
Talk through what is biblical lament
and how it offers, you know, a way to process suffering,
injustice, pain, disappointment, all that. And I think
that's what's so powerful.
>> May Young (13:03):
Sure. I, I, I think that why
I particularly say biblical
lament is because I feel like the concept
of lament has been more
popularized, and I'm thankful for that. And I, I'm,
I'm grateful that there's more talk about lament than
ever before. You know, like I said, growing up in the church, I never
even heard of the word. But now people,
(13:26):
because of probably all the things that we're facing
all over the world, that lament is something
that's brought to the foref. But why I
talk about recovering the concept or the
practice or the purpose of biblical lament
is because I feel like, um, biblical
lament goes beyond this general
understanding of merely expressing the reality of
(13:49):
suffering. And what I state in
my book is that I think biblical lament is an act of faith.
Um, at the end of the day, it's crying out
to God honestly, and our suffering and our
injustice and our anger and our
sin and disappointments and griefs and doubts,
you know, um, so that, you
(14:10):
know, biblical lament invites God into our
struggle, um, and into our pain
and doubts, and it helps us, sets us on, um,
this path to become people of
resilience, you know, so that we're not just stuffing
our pain or pretending like we're
fine when we're not, but actually
honestly dealing with them in the presence of God.
>> Loren (14:34):
Yeah. Such good, uh, such good stuff here.
I want to move to this because I'm thinking about,
again, thinking about even
the last several years, how there's been societally
so much pain and injustice and
disappointment and suffering. You write in the book about
lament being prophetic. Excuse me,
prophetic and an, uh, active resistance, which again, I found
(14:57):
interesting, because we don't
think of lament as such. So talk
more through that because I think it's such a powerful
image.
>> May Young (15:07):
Sure. So There are kind of two separate
things here, so maybe I'll talk about them a little bit separately. So
lament as, like, an act of
resistance first, let's say that. So
in one way, I think that
lament, and this I address in one of
my chapters, um, about the purpose of
(15:28):
lament. And I think lament is a way for us to have
a voice. It gives us voice in our pain.
So in some ways, it's like giving agency,
like, even in the midst of pain. So when we're
suffering, a lot of times we feel powerless
and voiceless, um,
but through. And almost like a victim,
(15:49):
you know, but through lament, we're
reclaiming our emotions rather than
giving pain and suffering the final word.
And, you know, I actually think about this. This is probably
really relevant in the sense that right now there's, like,
in the news, there's this hearing with, you know,
Sean Combs or P. Diddy.
>> Loren (16:10):
Yes.
>> May Young (16:10):
Um, and his ex girlfriend, Cassie
Ventura. And I think, you know, it
gets it. You know, the violence and the things that, uh. It's just
terrible. And I think in the midst of, like,
testifying and recounting the violence and suffering
that this woman had to endure, she actually
calls herself a survivor, not a
victim.
>> Loren (16:30):
Uh-huh.
>> May Young (16:31):
And there's this shift of moving
from, like, this passivity to more of a
resilience, so this process of healing. So
it's not just seeing herself as one who received harm,
abuse, but she's actually facing this,
testifying to this, actually having the courage
to say these things and to seek justice.
(16:51):
And so I think there's a part of that
that's, you know, giving voice to her
pain, giving agency, uh, in this kind
of lament and an act of resistance in
some ways, to the things that she's gone through. But
also. And this is where the, you know, it's
prophetic in the sense that lament is talked
about in the prophets that we see in the Old Testament.
(17:13):
The Old Testament prophets call out,
like, specific injustices,
uh, throughout the Old Testament. And in
that calling out, they're also
igniting this imagination for the community,
for what. What they could be if they stood
for real, true justice and mercy
(17:34):
that God calls for. So instead of, like,
normalizing the systematic,
like, or systemic injustice
and turning a blind eye, you know, for which is what
people were doing in the Old Testament.
>> Loren (17:48):
Right.
>> May Young (17:48):
But acknowledging through lament,
that helps the community to kind of stand,
uh, with a prophetic voice with those who are
suffering. So it's a call out to the community for change.
And for advocating for those who are suffering. So
it not only gives voice to the sufferer, but it
also is giving voice to the community,
(18:11):
to call out the injustice, to call out the
evil, instead of just turning a blind eye.
Because I think sometimes when there's so much
that is going around us that we feel almost
paralyzed, like, what can we do in all of this?
You know, how to. And then our.
Our emotions actually almost turn to apathy.
(18:32):
Like, we just so. We just don't even know what to do. We're so
overcome. But here in lament, you
know, when we're lamenting together, we're lamenting before
God. There's a way for us to
process those emotions in some ways and to call
out the injustice and say that we see it
instead of just you kind of bearing
(18:52):
it away.
>> Loren (18:53):
Yeah, I want to come back to that, but I. I do want to ask
about this, because you talked about apathy,
and I think. I don't know, maybe this is maybe in my own
faith tradition or faith nurturing, where I. I
feel like I, uh, really resonated with this part. You write about
Christian faith. Not meant to being about stoic
acceptance. And I know stoic acceptance is not
(19:15):
necessarily apathy, but I feel like they're.
I feel like they're related. Talk more about that.
>> May Young (19:21):
Sure. Uh, I, uh, think, you know, when I'm talking
about it in that way, I think I'm trying to
address here that God created us as
human beings who feel. So we're not robots.
God never created us to be robots.
We're not called to, like, stuff our feelings.
>> Loren (19:38):
Right.
>> May Young (19:39):
In fact, you know, Jesus invites us,
like in Matthew, you know, 11
to come, you know, all who are weary and
burdened, and he can give us rest. And so here he's
inviting us, you know, um, and then we
have examples throughout Scripture that show, like,
saints that are struggling and walking out
(19:59):
doubts and pain, and they're walking it out with
God. And so, you know, I think
here, you know, coming back to this, you know,
giving, uh, voice to a person in pain, it's, like,
acknowledged. It's in the acknowledgment that we actually find
healing. So we can't deal with what we don't
acknowledge. So I liken that. I think even
(20:20):
in our book. In my book, that word says, you know, like,
even in, like, physical pain, like, a lot of times,
if we're not really, um.
If we're just kind of stoic, like, I'm okay. I'm fine. I
don't have any Health issues. That doesn't make it go
away. You know, we still see the doctor,
but sometimes when we don't, when we don't acknowledge it,
(20:41):
it's not going to like, miraculously disappear. In fact,
sometimes it's going to get worse or it's going to fest,
um, and that we actually have to go to the
doctor. We have to kind of
uncover and show the doctor what our
symptoms are, kind of acknowledging that,
bringing that out so that we can actually, um,
(21:01):
know how to that path forward. Because if you don't acknowledge
it, you're not going to deal with it. You're just going to stuff it away.
And there's studies that I talk about in the book that
says people who are stuffing away
their pain, it's gonna creep up in
other ways, like things. It's like we think it's gonna
go away because we don't experience it, but it's
(21:21):
gonna come up. Maybe not right now. We might have some
reprieve, but maybe years later. There's people
that, you know, that I didn't even write in my book. There's. There's one
woman who, who had this trauma that she had,
you know, just stuffed away because she didn't want to face it
in her life. And then later on in life she
had this like, illness that was debilitating
and she didn't know what, what happened to her. No, the doctors
(21:44):
couldn't figure out what was happening, um, until she
just really had to deal with some of the things,
this trauma that was in her that was able to help
her to come to a place of recovery. And it's just like
we don't even realize, you know, we're
connected. We're whole body people, you know,
so our emotions are connected
to every part of our body too. And so, like,
(22:07):
you know, um, if there's things
that we're stuffing away, that doesn't make
it go away. We actually have to be people
who deal with it so that it's not just about, you
know, that apathy. Because at that
moment, apathy might feel like,
better, because if we can handle it better,
(22:28):
but we're not really dealing with something
and it's just gonna come back on us in the future.
>> Loren (22:33):
Uh, so, yeah, really good stuff here. Really
appreciate your perspectives.
I want to come back to this. You talk about in
the book how lament can help communities and churches
stand alongside those in pain. So
certainly talk about that. But I'm also intrigued by this idea
that you pointed out about how
lament is prophetic in that it ignites
(22:55):
imagination. I'm thinking about it in this
way of, you know, certainly we talk
a lot about the kingdom of God,
you know, doing, uh, kingdom work,
uh, helping the kingdom of God.
Certainly different churches have different theologies
around how they might understand that in
(23:17):
distinct implications. Right. But I'm
intrigued by that idea of a church being
something that can ignite a community's or people's
imagination of. Of more to come,
of better. What else do you want to say about that?
>> May Young (23:33):
Yeah, And I think that in
that too, we have to acknowledge of what we see now. And
I think that's where lament comes in.
That we need to not,
um, cloister ourselves
away from everything, um, but actually
recognizing what's happening and
(23:54):
acknowledging, um, that as a body, um, and
recognizing too, that as a body,
that even though individually we may not be
facing something, um, that we don't
just exist as individuals in the body, there's a corporate
body. And, uh, you know,
one of the things that I think, um, I
(24:15):
would like to see more in our church today
is more of a corporate
mentality, um, in the body of
Christ. And I think we've become too
individualistic, um, and
even in the sense of church attendance,
you know, people feeling like, I don't need
(24:35):
church. You know, I'm good just meeting God, or
I can just watch online.
>> Loren (24:40):
Right.
>> May Young (24:40):
Why do I need to go to church? Um, and
so we're really kind of downplaying,
um, the function of the body. And the Bible is
very specific, that we're the body of Christ and
where to stand together. We're not to stand
aloof when another part is suffering. And
so I think corporate lament
(25:00):
helps us to stand together, helps us to
acknowledge what's happening too, so that we can
ignite a greater vision for
the kingdom of God.
>> Loren (25:11):
Yeah. Yeah. So good.
Uh, I want to, uh. Let me ask you this quote. You have this quote.
Why, uh, is lament
sometimes the only and most appropriate
response? Talk more about that if you
can.
>> May Young (25:25):
Sure. Um,
I think I wrote that in,
um, highlighting situations of
evil and justice.
And I think, uh,
why it's the only response is because
during those times, we're trying to reconcile,
(25:47):
uh, this injustice that we see in the world. And then
we are trying to reconcile that with who God
is and his character. You know, like, why is God allowing
this? And so I think that, you
know, lament is the only and most appropriate response
because it helps us to bring it
before God. Um, because
(26:08):
it helps us to also, uh, acknowledge
that we trust God and That we trust God enough to
cry out to him, and that,
you know, sometimes evil is so
appalling and so terrible that only,
like I say this in my book, is that only the
infinite goodness, you know, of
(26:28):
God and power of God can bring
about this ultimate defeat. You know, and so
it's God who can do this. And so sometimes we
feel so powerless, uh, within ourselves when we see these things
that we lament is acknowledging
that we in ourselves is,
uh, we're powerless to do it. But the lament is a cry for
change. It's naming the evil, it's naming the pain,
(26:51):
you know, that, that we see all around us. But it's
also knowing that there's someone we can turn to.
It's. It's a hopeful engagement with God in
honest faith, you know, so we're kind of,
you know, um, bringing this and
participating and asking and crying out and really
seeing, you know,
(27:11):
your kingdom come and your will be done on earth.
And so here that we can actually pray that. Like,
because sometimes when we pray that, you know, what do we mean by
that too? Um, and so when we're
lamenting, we're saying, your kingdom
come, Lord. These are the things that we're lamenting. These are the things
that we're seeing. But Lord, we want your kingdom to
(27:32):
be done here on earth as it is in heaven. And we're
lamenting and we're crying out and we're participating
and we're engaging God, uh, in these
things as we see them.
>> Loren (27:42):
Yeah. Let me read the whole quote for our audience. And I'm
glad you could pick that up because I didn't give you much context there,
but this is such a good quote here, a good section.
Lament is especially highlighted in situations
of evil and injustice. In such contexts, we are trying
to reconcile events and actions in this
unjust world with God's character. Biblical
(28:02):
lament trusts God enough to cry out.
Sometimes. Lament is the only and most appropriate
response to the horrors that take place. Because some
evils are so appalling that the only
the infinite goodness and power of God can bring about their ultimate
defeat. The cry of lament is a
cry for change. It is a naming the evil and the
pain that has befallen us in our world.
(28:28):
So I think that resonates with another question I was going to ask you.
Is that why is lament
based on God's character and God's promise?
>> May Young (28:38):
Sure. Um, and I think this is kind of
where it's a little bit different from more of our
common, uh, understanding. Of lament because common understanding
of lament is almost like we're just
wallowing in our pain.
Yes, wallowing in our sadness.
But here, lament from a biblical
standpoint, we can lament because
(29:01):
of who God is, because of his promises, of
his character. That we don't lament in
hopelessness. We actually lament because
he's a God who is a God of promises. He's
a good and just God who's merciful. Um,
and he is the one that has the power to bring the
change. And so, you know, it's not about us.
(29:21):
But here we're lamenting because we're lamenting
to a person, to God, and
engaging with him and based on who
he is and his character is so important.
Um, and I think throughout scripture, we see that too.
Like, like when people come to God, they acknowledge
who he is and they recognize that he's
(29:42):
able to do it. He's able to do the change.
And that's why we come, and that's why we come
before God. And that's why lament.
When I talk about biblical lament and the
genre of lament, it always starts off
with an address to God and m.
That's the very first step. Lament is not just like
(30:03):
lamenting into a black hole of our sadness.
It's not just sitting there doing, you know,
crying our eyes out with nobody to hear us.
It's actually turning to God, um,
and the God who has this
character of who he is and his promises as well.
>> Loren (30:20):
Yeah. See, for. For our listeners, this is another reason
I'd recommend the book, because in the latter half, May kind
of breaks down different scriptures.
Talking about the style of lament, which again, I thought
was very enlightening and engaging.
I want to ask this because I think this is related
to God's character and promise that you talk about in the book
(30:41):
that I think is man, for me at least. Hard
one to accept. You talk about the faith
and the challenge to trust God, that healing and
restoration may not happen in this lifetime
or on our timetable. Let me set it up this
way. I was just listening to a story about.
In my neck of the woods, there's this nonprofit, Christian
(31:01):
nonprofit, I think, um, Hope House, if I'm remembering
correctly. And they help. Help teen moms.
And I remember I, uh, was just at an event where
the. The founder and CEO told the story of, you
know, their. Their orderly formation, and
they're trying to figure out, you know, where they're going to be, where they're going to
exist, land and all. That, and they, they were donated a piece
(31:21):
of land and it wasn't zoned correctly, or at least they thought
so. And they went into
like the public records and they found that this was a,
a land given from a church. And actually 25 years
ago, I mean, it just, it's so amazing.
25 years ago the church had zoned
the land in the
(31:42):
anticipation and desire to build some kind of maternity
home for young moms. Right.
>> May Young (31:47):
Amazing.
>> Loren (31:48):
I mean, right?
>> May Young (31:49):
Yeah. And amazing.
>> Loren (31:52):
There's many people probably who, in their lifetime
who probably thought, boy,
25 years has passed, we're not getting to
see this vision come to be. And then sure enough,
25, 30 years later, like there exists now
a home and a mission for m. These
teen moms. I mean, it's incredible.
>> May Young (32:12):
Mm, mhm. Mm
mhm. Yeah, well, you know, I
think so, I guess. Are you saying like having
a vision that's beyond ourselves?
>> Loren (32:21):
Well, like the trusting, the timetable is not her own,
you know?
>> May Young (32:25):
Mhm. Yeah. And I think that's really important. You know,
I think. And what I say is like, lament
is not like a silver bullet. It's not here to like
bring about, you know, what we want. This is not
about like helping us just to get
another way for us to see God as a genie in the
bottle. This is not, that's not what I'm saying for
(32:45):
lament. Lament is actually helping us
to bring, uh, to get to a place of greater
hope, a greater resilience,
um, even if we don't see
it on our own timetable. And I really, I think
about this with like the prophet Habakkuk,
like here, you know, in the beginning of his
(33:06):
book, you see that he's coming and he's lamenting the
situation of what's happening. He's like, all this evil
is happening God, like, what's going on? You know,
you're not a God who can stand evil. And then God's like,
okay, I'm gonna bring justice and I'm gonna bring
it through the Babylonians. And he's like, what, you call
that justice? You know, and he's like
(33:26):
dealing with God because he feel like the Babylonians are
worse than his own people. Like, how could God use these
wicked people to judge his own people? And so he's
grappling with these things and dealing with God
and has these questions. And
what I think is so amazing is that,
you know, God never says, okay, you know what,
you're right, I'm not going to use the Babylonians, okay? You
(33:49):
know, but what you find is that the
prophet himself at, uh, in chapter three at the end,
comes to a place that even if, you know, he doesn't see
anything, he says, I'm still going to trust
you. You know, I'm still gonna, you know. And it
was about, uh, a place of surrender
and a place. And probably in that process
(34:10):
of his lament, he was able to see
that God is trustworthy, that God is just.
That God is who he says he is. And in the
midst of that, he's able to say, God, you
know, my hope is not dependent on
what I see or this kind of, uh,
you know, what God is gonna bring about in this
(34:30):
way. But his hope was really in God
alone and what he's gonna do. And so no matter what happens,
he was able, through his surrender, to
find resilience. And I think that's just such a beautiful
way to see that. Even in lament, you know, it's not
always just about coming to a place where
we feel like, you know, we get the
(34:52):
prayers that we want answered or we want the outcome
that we have answered. But sometimes it's really about
drawing close to God, trusting God,
finding strength, finding hope, finding
resilience in his presence. So that,
you know, whatever the outcome, you know,
this is. So this is where I say, you know, hope is.
(35:13):
It's. It's meant. Is to bring us greater hope. It's not
to answer our prayers the way that we want it
to be answered. And that's not what I'm trying to say in
this book at all. And I feel. What's
really interesting for me is, like, a lot of times that
I've talked to different people who've gone through
really difficult times or difficult suffering,
(35:34):
uh, after they've come out of it, they tell me, they go, you
know, what I miss the most is that closeness
that I had with God in the midst of that. And I
can testify that for myself too.
His presence was so real and so
close at those moments,
um, that it wasn't just about, oh,
(35:54):
you know, I'm going to come see better days here and there.
But it's about, wow, God is with me
and he's going to care for me. He's going to take care of it. I may
not know what it's going to look like, but I'm going to trust him,
um, and it may not happen on my timetable, it may not
even happen in my lifetime, but I'm going to trust him,
um, in this and acknowledging, you know, that he
(36:15):
sees our pain, that he's There he is our
healer. He is the one who cares for us and knows the
very best. And so, um, recognizing
those things. And sometimes it may not be the
outcome that we want, but that doesn't mean there's a loss of
hope in there as well.
>> Loren (36:32):
Yeah. I appreciate what you said about
the answer to prayer not necessarily being what
we wanted or no answer at all. I'm thinking
of your quote on page 105.
Remember, silence does not equate to
absence. God is still there.
M. I think that's so powerful, speaking even
what you just said there.
>> May Young (36:55):
Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to
a, uh, sermon more recently about how
sometimes. So I think there's twofold in God's silence. I
think, um, first, you know, in
our silence, when in God's silence, sometimes
that actually causes us to press in deeper
to God, in a deeper engagement. And
sometimes maybe that's what God wants in that silence, to have
(37:18):
us to come and seek him more deeply,
um, in that way, um, more
passionately. Another way I think about, like,
the silence of God is, uh, I was listening. This is where I was listening
to a sermon, talking about how it's in times of
testing that there's silence. So, like, they gave the example of
how, like, when you're in a classroom, the professor
or the teacher is speaking and teaching,
(37:41):
but when there's a test, the teacher is silent,
and the student is answering with what they learned,
you know, and so sometimes, maybe the things that we've been
learning, God is asking us to,
you know, put it to the test, you know, the things that
we've learned about who he is, to trust that.
Um, so I think I put, you
(38:02):
know, what. What we see in the light, we
need to remember in the dark, you know?
Um, and so when we're walking through that
valley, we need to remember the things that we've
learned, you know, um, on the
mountaintop.
>> Loren (38:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is really
good conversation. I hope folks can
just get a taste for the book again.
It's Walking with God through the Valley,
Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. Again,
really recommend it. I really appreciate reading it, and I
hope, uh, it's been a blessing to others.
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
(38:40):
questions.
All right, we're back with Dr. Mae Young. Thank you so much for
this conversation. Uh, we always tell folks
for these closing questions, you're welcome to take them as
seriously or not as you'd like to. So
if you're pope for a day, what would you want to do
with that day.
>> May Young (39:01):
Um, if I was a pope for a day, I
think I would use
it to call people. And this is something that I,
I just alluded to a little bit earlier, um,
that we have become too individualized. And
I would, uh, call people back to
recognize the body of the church, that we're the body
(39:22):
of Christ and we belong to one another. Um,
and not to, like, phone
it in or zoom it in, but
to become connected into
the church. And one of the things that I talk about,
even in my book, is that loneliness is a huge
kind of, uh, thing that people are struggling with and
(39:43):
people are feeling. And so, you know,
this isolation has brought to a greater
sense of loneliness in the hearts of people. And so really calling
people back to a community and
recognizing, um, the church,
the body of Christ, and the importance of that.
>> Loren (40:00):
Um, the next question, ah,
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want
to meet or bring back to life? I'm also curious,
related to this topic. What
are some historical figures, whether biblical or
historically Christian, who you recognize as
practicing this practice of lament?
>> May Young (40:21):
Well, definitely. So I guess it
would be like David, because
from the book of Psalms. So
I, um, would definitely see him as a person that I would
like to talk to about lament, just
because he is, ah, an author of many of the
Psalms, um, and to ask him about
(40:41):
his thoughts about when he penned these two
laments and his own, you know, process.
I think I ended the book too, where I talked about
how it says that David, uh,
strengthened himself in the Lord.
And what did that look like? Was that really lament,
you know, when he was doing that, you know, finding
strength in the Lord, Uh, the other
(41:04):
person would be like, you know,
um, job, you know, as he's
lamenting his own situation.
Um, and what for
him, you know, like, I really appreciate his
honesty in dealing with, you know, his
situation and his pain before God
as well as, like, Habakkuk,
(41:26):
uh, you know, just some of the people, and
probably someone that I really,
um, really
admire and I really, really learn a lot from his
writings is Henri Nouwen,
which I did quote. Um, he just
thinks so deeply about so many issues.
Um, I really appreciate his thoughts on these things
(41:48):
as well.
>> Loren (41:49):
Yeah.
Thinking about our current time and place, what do you think history
will remember from our current time
and place?
>> May Young (41:58):
Well, I don't know from our current time and
place, but maybe like within our generation for
sure is the pandemic. COVID
19. I think that's gonna be
remembered. I think it just. And
that shutdown of the world
that had happened. Like, that's
(42:18):
unprecedented, you know.
Um, so I. You know
what I remember? Yeah.
>> Loren (42:25):
Let me ask this vame, because I just saw this
somewhere on social media. This idea
that there's a thought that
our society right now is dealing with unprocessed
grief and pain from the COVID
pandemic. You write about lament. Do you
think we need to lament more or we should have
(42:46):
lamented more? The pandemic?
Like, do you think there's this so rush to get back to
normal?
>> May Young (42:54):
You know what? Maybe I don't
know what can be done in terms of like,
you know, after the fact in some sense of like.
I don't know if it was like. I don't want to say we should have lamented
more, but. But maybe there are
certain things that people could think about.
One thing is interesting is I feel like
(43:14):
the younger generation is dealing with a lot more anxiety.
>> Loren (43:17):
Yeah.
>> May Young (43:18):
Um. And not knowing how to,
you know, process a lot of things and
a lot of them even attributing some
of the things that happened during the COVID
pandemic during their formative years.
Um, and so, you know, there
might be things there to actually think about instead of just
(43:38):
getting back into life as it is
to recognize what could be part of
that that is contributing to the anxiety. Um,
that's there as well. So, you know,
I think there's definitely things for us to
really, uh, be more
reflective about. Perhaps, you know,
(44:00):
this is a question of, you know, as a society as a whole,
maybe we're, um, very do
oriented, very busy, very,
um, and so that we don't have time for
reflection. And, uh,
maybe this is good if we spent
more time in reflection about that. And I think sometimes people
don't even know where to start. You know, they're just.
(44:23):
Because they're just always on the go. It's almost like when people
are always on the go, when they have time to stop,
they don't even know what to do with themselves. And so maybe
this is a time of, you know, how do
we sit before God? How do we sit and
have that time of reflection before him?
>> Loren (44:40):
Yeah. I feel like that's a theme we didn't even explore
enough in this conversation that to lament you almost
have to stop and not just plow through.
>> May Young (44:49):
That's right.
>> Loren (44:50):
Everything.
>> May Young (44:51):
Yep. Yeah. And that's where it's hard. I think people
don't want to stop
and. But sometimes when things are so debilitating,
you have no choice but to
stop. You know, yeah.
>> Loren (45:04):
Okay, last, uh, last question
here. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> May Young (45:11):
Well, I, I think some things that I've been hearing
about is like, uh, revival that's taking place
in high schools, in college campuses.
Um, I just think that's so encouraging.
And my hopes is that I want to see
the Lord move powerfully
in this next generation, um, and to
(45:33):
use them to bring about
his work, uh, here,
um, and across the nation and around the world.
And so it's really amazing too, because I have the
privilege of teaching, uh, college students teach at
Taylor University, and just seeing
their passion and knowing, um, just
their call and what God is calling them to do and
(45:55):
just. It's just such a privilege to
see that and, uh, to see what God's doing in the next
generation.
>> Loren (46:03):
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time.
I really appreciate the conversation, your perspectives.
Do you want to share how folks can connect with you?
Get a copy of the book, all that stuff?
>> May Young (46:14):
Sure. Um, well,
uh, right now I am
currently having a website put together.
Um, that'll come up shortly, but, uh,
it's
mayoung.com.
it's not up yet, but it'll be up shortly.
Uh, but in the meantime, you can find
(46:36):
my book on Amazon or Christian
Book Distributors or anywhere.
Um, IVP website as well.
>> Loren (46:45):
Yeah.
>> May Young (46:45):
Um, and so you can
get a copy of the book that way.
>> Loren (46:50):
Well, it'll be a few weeks before this comes out, so hopefully listeners,
uh, be on lookout. Look for
May Young. Right. You said dot com. Hopefully
be up and live around. Maybe we can get that timing
right.
>> May Young (47:03):
Yeah, that sounds great.
>> Loren (47:06):
Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the
conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So
may God's peace be with you.
>> May Young (47:12):
You. Thank you.
>> Loren Richmond (47:21):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
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(47:43):
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Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
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walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
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designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
Dr. May Young. Dr. Young
is Associate professor of Biblical Studies
and chairs the Department of Biblical Studies,
Christian Ministries, Intercultural Studies
and Philosophy at Taylor University.
(01:04):
She has contributed to several volumes focused
on Lament, including Reading the Psalms,
Theologically and World
Christianity and COVID 19
Discourses and Perspective. She is
a member of the Evangelical Theological Society
and the Society of Biblical Literature
and serves on the Board of Directors of the
(01:26):
Institute of Biblical Research as well as
the editorial board for Sacred Roots.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
(01:47):
an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:11):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined by
Dr. Mae Young. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> May Young (02:20):
Thank you for having me.
>> Loren (02:22):
Yeah, thank you for being here. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Uh, anything else you want to say about yourself before we begin?
>> May Young (02:29):
Um, let's see. I guess to
let our hearers know a little bit about me. I
enjoy hiking. Um, I enjoy,
uh, action movies.
Um, and then as for TV
shows, I kind of like the crime shows that are on prime
time, like the FBI and cis. I
(02:50):
don't know why I'm drawn to action and crime.
Maybe that's why I need to lament.
>> Loren (02:55):
Yeah. Yeah. So are you going to see the new.
When does the new Mission Impossible come out? Are you going to see that?
>> May Young (03:02):
Uh, yeah. You know what? I think I'd like to, um. I think it's
gonna come out, actually. Isn't it coming out
later this month or so? I don't know. I didn't really follow
that, but yes, I probably like to
watch.
>> Loren (03:14):
Do you have, like, a top three top favorite like
action movies?
>> May Young (03:19):
Well, you know, I used to really like the Marvel
franchise.
>> Loren (03:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> May Young (03:24):
But in the more recent movies, I don't feel like
they have been that good. Although I heard that the
most recent one was supposed to be good, so I don't know. I have to
yet watch that and see.
>> Loren (03:34):
Yeah. What is that the
camera, what it's called?
>> May Young (03:40):
I actually don't remember.
>> Loren (03:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.
Um, well, lest we get
too deep into action movies in the MCU
universe here, share, if you
would, just about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what
looked like today.
>> May Young (04:00):
Sure. You know, I think there was a turning point in
my high school years, um,
when in the past I felt that,
um, being a Christian, you know, I saw
myself as a Christian, but I didn't
really, uh, see myself
fully surrendered in every aspect of my life
(04:21):
to the Lord. Um, and that particularly
was maybe in the area of, uh, even
vocation at that time in high school.
Um, and so there was a turning point in my life
where, you know, I had my own
plans of what I wanted for my future. And
I was listening to a sermon, and it wasn't anything like
(04:41):
spectacular or anything, but it was just the content
was the pastor was just really challenging me, saying,
you know, where are you investing? Are you investing in
eternal things or just things in
this life? And I had to be
honest, and I felt like I wasn't really investing in eternal things.
I was just thinking more about the future and what that might look
(05:02):
like here and now.
Um, and that was when the Lord challenged
me to say, you know, if I
called you to a certain vocation, would you surrender
that to me? Uh, even if it's going to the mission
field or, uh, doing some kind
of ministry? And at that point, you
(05:22):
know, that had never crossed my mind, and I kind of.
It was probably one of those fears like, oh, no, he's going to call me in
the mission field.
>> Loren (05:29):
Right, right.
>> May Young (05:30):
But I had to come to that place and I had to say, you
know, um, this life is
not my own, and it belongs to the
Lord. And so I said, lord, if you.
Whatever you want, if you're calling me to the mission field, that's
fine, or however you wanted to do it. And
that took me to a turning point in my life to
(05:51):
realize that even my future and
my vocation, everything belongs to God.
>> Loren (05:56):
Uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
What has been some spiritual practices, some spiritual disciplines
that have kind of helped you, you're willing to share?
>> May Young (06:04):
Sure. I think um, probably in
the more recent years,
I would say, the practice of
fasting.
>> Loren (06:14):
Uh-huh.
>> May Young (06:15):
You know, I feel like
that, you know,
um, living in the US
and having a lot, uh, at our
disposal. And I love food.
Fasting is never easy. You know, fasting is
just, you know, even though I
(06:38):
do, if no matter how long I practice it, it's
kind of like. It's always just hard to
not, you know, uh, to kind of just say,
you know, I'm going to put that aside to seek the Lord
and. But I feel like it's very
meaningful and has taught me
(06:58):
about self control, um, taught
me about, you know,
um, not necessarily always having
my way or,
um, always just satisfying my flesh,
um, and knowing
how to wait on the Lord,
um, and wait on his timing.
>> Loren (07:20):
Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing that. That's really,
uh, enlightening.
Well, we're here to talk with Mae about her book,
Walking with God. Excuse me. Walking with God
through the Valley. Recovering the Purpose
of Biblical Lament. And
I suppose we'll ask this question just to get things started to kind of
(07:41):
boilerplate. Like, tell me about what inspired the
book. What made you want to write it?
>> May Young (07:46):
Sure. Uh, what inspired me, I
guess, was actually a very difficult time in my own life.
Um, which, you know,
I think up to that. Up to, I guess,
a certain, you know, growing up in the church, you know,
I knew that, you know, suffering is
part of the Christian life and difficult times.
(08:07):
But, uh, when I experienced a
time when I was
a young wife and we were church planting and
my, um, ex husband was
unfaithful, it was like I didn't know what to
do. Um, felt like
the rug was pulled underneath my feet,
(08:28):
and I didn't know what life
would be like in the future. And everything just
was very scary and very, you know,
difficult and just. I just
came to a point where I didn't know what was next.
And, um, it
just almost felt like, you know, I was
(08:49):
looking over a cliff in some ways, like, what do I
do now? What happens now? What happens in life? And,
you know, it's not what I expected
in any way. Um, about
life, marriage, future,
and having to grapple with that,
um, and my own faith and God's
faithfulness, um, and just really
(09:12):
leaning into God during that time.
Um, I really. That was actually the first time
that I even thought about lament, because I really never even thought
about the concept of lament. We never really heard about that growing up
in the church, to be honest. Like, I never.
I didn't Even know about the concept, really.
Um, but I found myself during that
(09:33):
time just, like, praying and
reading the psalms and, like, crying
and, you know, for, like,
that was the only thing that would actually bring
comfort into my heart.
>> Loren (09:46):
Wow.
>> May Young (09:46):
And I was just thinking, like, you know,
what happens? Like, no one prepares
you for what happens when you're
going through difficult times and
you wake up the next day and nothing changes.
Uh, or you wake up the next day again and
nothing changes, because you're always, always, like, hoping
(10:08):
for something to change and something to
be better in some ways. But how do you handle it
when something is
broken and it's
not changing? You know,
um, do we process. How do we process
that kind of pain and doubt
and how do we trust God? And I
(10:31):
really found that during that time
of struggle, that God was closer to me
than ever. Um, and that he
was, you know, uh, like,
when I felt like I hit rock bottom and he was the
rock.
>> Loren (10:47):
Wow.
>> May Young (10:47):
And, um. And I. And I was. And I. And then when
I thought about that, I was like, how come I
never really learned about this in the
church? You know, how come, you know, this is not something that we
talk about when, you know, uh.
Because something that I mentioned in my book is, like,
sometimes a lot of times what we hear about is
(11:08):
after people have gone through difficult times,
they talk about how they've
overcome. But how about when you're in that time?
You know, how about when you don't feel like you're overcoming and you
feel like, is there something wrong with me that I'm not
overcoming? Is there something wrong with me that nothing's changing?
Does God not love me? Is, you know, is something happening? Is
(11:28):
this judgment? You, uh, know, like, all these questions
that come into our heads instead of really, like,
realizing in the midst of our suffering and
pain that, you know, there's something called biblical
lament that God wants us to come to him,
to pray and to leave these pains and process
these pains in his presence in the midst of it,
(11:49):
instead of just waiting for, you know, that. That
triumphant, you know, overcoming.
>> Loren (11:55):
Yeah. You shared so much there. Thank you. Thank you for sharing
that. You know, I'm struck by something you said. I'm not sure
if. If I'm reminded of something from your book or from another
book. This idea of, like,
overcoming so much of.
Especially, like, modern worship songs, right? Are this.
Like, there's no, like,
(12:15):
I feel like you write about this, but there's no, like, lamet songs.
Like, they're all, like, I've overcome songs.
And that's a hard place for that.
>> May Young (12:24):
There's not a place for that.
>> Loren (12:25):
Yeah, right.
>> May Young (12:26):
I think that's great, and I think people do need that,
but I think we also need to know what happens
in that process too. And I think people don't
know. We just want to jump to the
overcoming. I think that's what. And then
when we don't feel that, then we feel there's something
wrong with us because we don't know that process.
>> Loren (12:48):
Yes. So good.
Well, let's talk about, we're kind of talking around this,
Talk through what is biblical lament
and how it offers, you know, a way to process suffering,
injustice, pain, disappointment, all that. And I think
that's what's so powerful.
>> May Young (13:03):
Sure. I, I, I think that why
I particularly say biblical
lament is because I feel like the concept
of lament has been more
popularized, and I'm thankful for that. And I, I'm,
I'm grateful that there's more talk about lament than
ever before. You know, like I said, growing up in the church, I never
even heard of the word. But now people,
(13:26):
because of probably all the things that we're facing
all over the world, that lament is something
that's brought to the foref. But why I
talk about recovering the concept or the
practice or the purpose of biblical lament
is because I feel like, um, biblical
lament goes beyond this general
understanding of merely expressing the reality of
(13:49):
suffering. And what I state in
my book is that I think biblical lament is an act of faith.
Um, at the end of the day, it's crying out
to God honestly, and our suffering and our
injustice and our anger and our
sin and disappointments and griefs and doubts,
you know, um, so that, you
(14:10):
know, biblical lament invites God into our
struggle, um, and into our pain
and doubts, and it helps us, sets us on, um,
this path to become people of
resilience, you know, so that we're not just stuffing
our pain or pretending like we're
fine when we're not, but actually
honestly dealing with them in the presence of God.
>> Loren (14:34):
Yeah. Such good, uh, such good stuff here.
I want to move to this because I'm thinking about,
again, thinking about even
the last several years, how there's been societally
so much pain and injustice and
disappointment and suffering. You write in the book about
lament being prophetic. Excuse me,
prophetic and an, uh, active resistance, which again, I found
(14:57):
interesting, because we don't
think of lament as such. So talk
more through that because I think it's such a powerful
image.
>> May Young (15:07):
Sure. So There are kind of two separate
things here, so maybe I'll talk about them a little bit separately. So
lament as, like, an act of
resistance first, let's say that. So
in one way, I think that
lament, and this I address in one of
my chapters, um, about the purpose of
(15:28):
lament. And I think lament is a way for us to have
a voice. It gives us voice in our pain.
So in some ways, it's like giving agency,
like, even in the midst of pain. So when we're
suffering, a lot of times we feel powerless
and voiceless, um,
but through. And almost like a victim,
(15:49):
you know, but through lament, we're
reclaiming our emotions rather than
giving pain and suffering the final word.
And, you know, I actually think about this. This is probably
really relevant in the sense that right now there's, like,
in the news, there's this hearing with, you know,
Sean Combs or P. Diddy.
>> Loren (16:10):
Yes.
>> May Young (16:10):
Um, and his ex girlfriend, Cassie
Ventura. And I think, you know, it
gets it. You know, the violence and the things that, uh. It's just
terrible. And I think in the midst of, like,
testifying and recounting the violence and suffering
that this woman had to endure, she actually
calls herself a survivor, not a
victim.
>> Loren (16:30):
Uh-huh.
>> May Young (16:31):
And there's this shift of moving
from, like, this passivity to more of a
resilience, so this process of healing. So
it's not just seeing herself as one who received harm,
abuse, but she's actually facing this,
testifying to this, actually having the courage
to say these things and to seek justice.
(16:51):
And so I think there's a part of that
that's, you know, giving voice to her
pain, giving agency, uh, in this kind
of lament and an act of resistance in
some ways, to the things that she's gone through. But
also. And this is where the, you know, it's
prophetic in the sense that lament is talked
about in the prophets that we see in the Old Testament.
(17:13):
The Old Testament prophets call out,
like, specific injustices,
uh, throughout the Old Testament. And in
that calling out, they're also
igniting this imagination for the community,
for what. What they could be if they stood
for real, true justice and mercy
(17:34):
that God calls for. So instead of, like,
normalizing the systematic,
like, or systemic injustice
and turning a blind eye, you know, for which is what
people were doing in the Old Testament.
>> Loren (17:48):
Right.
>> May Young (17:48):
But acknowledging through lament,
that helps the community to kind of stand,
uh, with a prophetic voice with those who are
suffering. So it's a call out to the community for change.
And for advocating for those who are suffering. So
it not only gives voice to the sufferer, but it
also is giving voice to the community,
(18:11):
to call out the injustice, to call out the
evil, instead of just turning a blind eye.
Because I think sometimes when there's so much
that is going around us that we feel almost
paralyzed, like, what can we do in all of this?
You know, how to. And then our.
Our emotions actually almost turn to apathy.
(18:32):
Like, we just so. We just don't even know what to do. We're so
overcome. But here in lament, you
know, when we're lamenting together, we're lamenting before
God. There's a way for us to
process those emotions in some ways and to call
out the injustice and say that we see it
instead of just you kind of bearing
(18:52):
it away.
>> Loren (18:53):
Yeah, I want to come back to that, but I. I do want to ask
about this, because you talked about apathy,
and I think. I don't know, maybe this is maybe in my own
faith tradition or faith nurturing, where I. I
feel like I, uh, really resonated with this part. You write about
Christian faith. Not meant to being about stoic
acceptance. And I know stoic acceptance is not
(19:15):
necessarily apathy, but I feel like they're.
I feel like they're related. Talk more about that.
>> May Young (19:21):
Sure. Uh, I, uh, think, you know, when I'm talking
about it in that way, I think I'm trying to
address here that God created us as
human beings who feel. So we're not robots.
God never created us to be robots.
We're not called to, like, stuff our feelings.
>> Loren (19:38):
Right.
>> May Young (19:39):
In fact, you know, Jesus invites us,
like in Matthew, you know, 11
to come, you know, all who are weary and
burdened, and he can give us rest. And so here he's
inviting us, you know, um, and then we
have examples throughout Scripture that show, like,
saints that are struggling and walking out
(19:59):
doubts and pain, and they're walking it out with
God. And so, you know, I think
here, you know, coming back to this, you know,
giving, uh, voice to a person in pain, it's, like,
acknowledged. It's in the acknowledgment that we actually find
healing. So we can't deal with what we don't
acknowledge. So I liken that. I think even
(20:20):
in our book. In my book, that word says, you know, like,
even in, like, physical pain, like, a lot of times,
if we're not really, um.
If we're just kind of stoic, like, I'm okay. I'm fine. I
don't have any Health issues. That doesn't make it go
away. You know, we still see the doctor,
but sometimes when we don't, when we don't acknowledge it,
(20:41):
it's not going to like, miraculously disappear. In fact,
sometimes it's going to get worse or it's going to fest,
um, and that we actually have to go to the
doctor. We have to kind of
uncover and show the doctor what our
symptoms are, kind of acknowledging that,
bringing that out so that we can actually, um,
(21:01):
know how to that path forward. Because if you don't acknowledge
it, you're not going to deal with it. You're just going to stuff it away.
And there's studies that I talk about in the book that
says people who are stuffing away
their pain, it's gonna creep up in
other ways, like things. It's like we think it's gonna
go away because we don't experience it, but it's
(21:21):
gonna come up. Maybe not right now. We might have some
reprieve, but maybe years later. There's people
that, you know, that I didn't even write in my book. There's. There's one
woman who, who had this trauma that she had,
you know, just stuffed away because she didn't want to face it
in her life. And then later on in life she
had this like, illness that was debilitating
and she didn't know what, what happened to her. No, the doctors
(21:44):
couldn't figure out what was happening, um, until she
just really had to deal with some of the things,
this trauma that was in her that was able to help
her to come to a place of recovery. And it's just like
we don't even realize, you know, we're
connected. We're whole body people, you know,
so our emotions are connected
to every part of our body too. And so, like,
(22:07):
you know, um, if there's things
that we're stuffing away, that doesn't make
it go away. We actually have to be people
who deal with it so that it's not just about, you
know, that apathy. Because at that
moment, apathy might feel like,
better, because if we can handle it better,
(22:28):
but we're not really dealing with something
and it's just gonna come back on us in the future.
>> Loren (22:33):
Uh, so, yeah, really good stuff here. Really
appreciate your perspectives.
I want to come back to this. You talk about in
the book how lament can help communities and churches
stand alongside those in pain. So
certainly talk about that. But I'm also intrigued by this idea
that you pointed out about how
lament is prophetic in that it ignites
(22:55):
imagination. I'm thinking about it in this
way of, you know, certainly we talk
a lot about the kingdom of God,
you know, doing, uh, kingdom work,
uh, helping the kingdom of God.
Certainly different churches have different theologies
around how they might understand that in
(23:17):
distinct implications. Right. But I'm
intrigued by that idea of a church being
something that can ignite a community's or people's
imagination of. Of more to come,
of better. What else do you want to say about that?
>> May Young (23:33):
Yeah, And I think that in
that too, we have to acknowledge of what we see now. And
I think that's where lament comes in.
That we need to not,
um, cloister ourselves
away from everything, um, but actually
recognizing what's happening and
(23:54):
acknowledging, um, that as a body, um, and
recognizing too, that as a body,
that even though individually we may not be
facing something, um, that we don't
just exist as individuals in the body, there's a corporate
body. And, uh, you know,
one of the things that I think, um, I
(24:15):
would like to see more in our church today
is more of a corporate
mentality, um, in the body of
Christ. And I think we've become too
individualistic, um, and
even in the sense of church attendance,
you know, people feeling like, I don't need
(24:35):
church. You know, I'm good just meeting God, or
I can just watch online.
>> Loren (24:40):
Right.
>> May Young (24:40):
Why do I need to go to church? Um, and
so we're really kind of downplaying,
um, the function of the body. And the Bible is
very specific, that we're the body of Christ and
where to stand together. We're not to stand
aloof when another part is suffering. And
so I think corporate lament
(25:00):
helps us to stand together, helps us to
acknowledge what's happening too, so that we can
ignite a greater vision for
the kingdom of God.
>> Loren (25:11):
Yeah. Yeah. So good.
Uh, I want to, uh. Let me ask you this quote. You have this quote.
Why, uh, is lament
sometimes the only and most appropriate
response? Talk more about that if you
can.
>> May Young (25:25):
Sure. Um,
I think I wrote that in,
um, highlighting situations of
evil and justice.
And I think, uh,
why it's the only response is because
during those times, we're trying to reconcile,
(25:47):
uh, this injustice that we see in the world. And then
we are trying to reconcile that with who God
is and his character. You know, like, why is God allowing
this? And so I think that, you
know, lament is the only and most appropriate response
because it helps us to bring it
before God. Um, because
(26:08):
it helps us to also, uh, acknowledge
that we trust God and That we trust God enough to
cry out to him, and that,
you know, sometimes evil is so
appalling and so terrible that only,
like I say this in my book, is that only the
infinite goodness, you know, of
(26:28):
God and power of God can bring
about this ultimate defeat. You know, and so
it's God who can do this. And so sometimes we
feel so powerless, uh, within ourselves when we see these things
that we lament is acknowledging
that we in ourselves is,
uh, we're powerless to do it. But the lament is a cry for
change. It's naming the evil, it's naming the pain,
(26:51):
you know, that, that we see all around us. But it's
also knowing that there's someone we can turn to.
It's. It's a hopeful engagement with God in
honest faith, you know, so we're kind of,
you know, um, bringing this and
participating and asking and crying out and really
seeing, you know,
(27:11):
your kingdom come and your will be done on earth.
And so here that we can actually pray that. Like,
because sometimes when we pray that, you know, what do we mean by
that too? Um, and so when we're
lamenting, we're saying, your kingdom
come, Lord. These are the things that we're lamenting. These are the things
that we're seeing. But Lord, we want your kingdom to
(27:32):
be done here on earth as it is in heaven. And we're
lamenting and we're crying out and we're participating
and we're engaging God, uh, in these
things as we see them.
>> Loren (27:42):
Yeah. Let me read the whole quote for our audience. And I'm
glad you could pick that up because I didn't give you much context there,
but this is such a good quote here, a good section.
Lament is especially highlighted in situations
of evil and injustice. In such contexts, we are trying
to reconcile events and actions in this
unjust world with God's character. Biblical
(28:02):
lament trusts God enough to cry out.
Sometimes. Lament is the only and most appropriate
response to the horrors that take place. Because some
evils are so appalling that the only
the infinite goodness and power of God can bring about their ultimate
defeat. The cry of lament is a
cry for change. It is a naming the evil and the
pain that has befallen us in our world.
(28:28):
So I think that resonates with another question I was going to ask you.
Is that why is lament
based on God's character and God's promise?
>> May Young (28:38):
Sure. Um, and I think this is kind of
where it's a little bit different from more of our
common, uh, understanding. Of lament because common understanding
of lament is almost like we're just
wallowing in our pain.
Yes, wallowing in our sadness.
But here, lament from a biblical
standpoint, we can lament because
(29:01):
of who God is, because of his promises, of
his character. That we don't lament in
hopelessness. We actually lament because
he's a God who is a God of promises. He's
a good and just God who's merciful. Um,
and he is the one that has the power to bring the
change. And so, you know, it's not about us.
(29:21):
But here we're lamenting because we're lamenting
to a person, to God, and
engaging with him and based on who
he is and his character is so important.
Um, and I think throughout scripture, we see that too.
Like, like when people come to God, they acknowledge
who he is and they recognize that he's
(29:42):
able to do it. He's able to do the change.
And that's why we come, and that's why we come
before God. And that's why lament.
When I talk about biblical lament and the
genre of lament, it always starts off
with an address to God and m.
That's the very first step. Lament is not just like
(30:03):
lamenting into a black hole of our sadness.
It's not just sitting there doing, you know,
crying our eyes out with nobody to hear us.
It's actually turning to God, um,
and the God who has this
character of who he is and his promises as well.
>> Loren (30:20):
Yeah. See, for. For our listeners, this is another reason
I'd recommend the book, because in the latter half, May kind
of breaks down different scriptures.
Talking about the style of lament, which again, I thought
was very enlightening and engaging.
I want to ask this because I think this is related
to God's character and promise that you talk about in the book
(30:41):
that I think is man, for me at least. Hard
one to accept. You talk about the faith
and the challenge to trust God, that healing and
restoration may not happen in this lifetime
or on our timetable. Let me set it up this
way. I was just listening to a story about.
In my neck of the woods, there's this nonprofit, Christian
(31:01):
nonprofit, I think, um, Hope House, if I'm remembering
correctly. And they help. Help teen moms.
And I remember I, uh, was just at an event where
the. The founder and CEO told the story of, you
know, their. Their orderly formation, and
they're trying to figure out, you know, where they're going to be, where they're going to
exist, land and all. That, and they, they were donated a piece
(31:21):
of land and it wasn't zoned correctly, or at least they thought
so. And they went into
like the public records and they found that this was a,
a land given from a church. And actually 25 years
ago, I mean, it just, it's so amazing.
25 years ago the church had zoned
the land in the
(31:42):
anticipation and desire to build some kind of maternity
home for young moms. Right.
>> May Young (31:47):
Amazing.
>> Loren (31:48):
I mean, right?
>> May Young (31:49):
Yeah. And amazing.
>> Loren (31:52):
There's many people probably who, in their lifetime
who probably thought, boy,
25 years has passed, we're not getting to
see this vision come to be. And then sure enough,
25, 30 years later, like there exists now
a home and a mission for m. These
teen moms. I mean, it's incredible.
>> May Young (32:12):
Mm, mhm. Mm
mhm. Yeah, well, you know, I
think so, I guess. Are you saying like having
a vision that's beyond ourselves?
>> Loren (32:21):
Well, like the trusting, the timetable is not her own,
you know?
>> May Young (32:25):
Mhm. Yeah. And I think that's really important. You know,
I think. And what I say is like, lament
is not like a silver bullet. It's not here to like
bring about, you know, what we want. This is not
about like helping us just to get
another way for us to see God as a genie in the
bottle. This is not, that's not what I'm saying for
(32:45):
lament. Lament is actually helping us
to bring, uh, to get to a place of greater
hope, a greater resilience,
um, even if we don't see
it on our own timetable. And I really, I think
about this with like the prophet Habakkuk,
like here, you know, in the beginning of his
(33:06):
book, you see that he's coming and he's lamenting the
situation of what's happening. He's like, all this evil
is happening God, like, what's going on? You know,
you're not a God who can stand evil. And then God's like,
okay, I'm gonna bring justice and I'm gonna bring
it through the Babylonians. And he's like, what, you call
that justice? You know, and he's like
(33:26):
dealing with God because he feel like the Babylonians are
worse than his own people. Like, how could God use these
wicked people to judge his own people? And so he's
grappling with these things and dealing with God
and has these questions. And
what I think is so amazing is that,
you know, God never says, okay, you know what,
you're right, I'm not going to use the Babylonians, okay? You
(33:49):
know, but what you find is that the
prophet himself at, uh, in chapter three at the end,
comes to a place that even if, you know, he doesn't see
anything, he says, I'm still going to trust
you. You know, I'm still gonna, you know. And it
was about, uh, a place of surrender
and a place. And probably in that process
(34:10):
of his lament, he was able to see
that God is trustworthy, that God is just.
That God is who he says he is. And in the
midst of that, he's able to say, God, you
know, my hope is not dependent on
what I see or this kind of, uh,
you know, what God is gonna bring about in this
(34:30):
way. But his hope was really in God
alone and what he's gonna do. And so no matter what happens,
he was able, through his surrender, to
find resilience. And I think that's just such a beautiful
way to see that. Even in lament, you know, it's not
always just about coming to a place where
we feel like, you know, we get the
(34:52):
prayers that we want answered or we want the outcome
that we have answered. But sometimes it's really about
drawing close to God, trusting God,
finding strength, finding hope, finding
resilience in his presence. So that,
you know, whatever the outcome, you know,
this is. So this is where I say, you know, hope is.
(35:13):
It's. It's meant. Is to bring us greater hope. It's not
to answer our prayers the way that we want it
to be answered. And that's not what I'm trying to say in
this book at all. And I feel. What's
really interesting for me is, like, a lot of times that
I've talked to different people who've gone through
really difficult times or difficult suffering,
(35:34):
uh, after they've come out of it, they tell me, they go, you
know, what I miss the most is that closeness
that I had with God in the midst of that. And I
can testify that for myself too.
His presence was so real and so
close at those moments,
um, that it wasn't just about, oh,
(35:54):
you know, I'm going to come see better days here and there.
But it's about, wow, God is with me
and he's going to care for me. He's going to take care of it. I may
not know what it's going to look like, but I'm going to trust him,
um, and it may not happen on my timetable, it may not
even happen in my lifetime, but I'm going to trust him,
um, in this and acknowledging, you know, that he
(36:15):
sees our pain, that he's There he is our
healer. He is the one who cares for us and knows the
very best. And so, um, recognizing
those things. And sometimes it may not be the
outcome that we want, but that doesn't mean there's a loss of
hope in there as well.
>> Loren (36:32):
Yeah. I appreciate what you said about
the answer to prayer not necessarily being what
we wanted or no answer at all. I'm thinking
of your quote on page 105.
Remember, silence does not equate to
absence. God is still there.
M. I think that's so powerful, speaking even
what you just said there.
>> May Young (36:55):
Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to
a, uh, sermon more recently about how
sometimes. So I think there's twofold in God's silence. I
think, um, first, you know, in
our silence, when in God's silence, sometimes
that actually causes us to press in deeper
to God, in a deeper engagement. And
sometimes maybe that's what God wants in that silence, to have
(37:18):
us to come and seek him more deeply,
um, in that way, um, more
passionately. Another way I think about, like,
the silence of God is, uh, I was listening. This is where I was listening
to a sermon, talking about how it's in times of
testing that there's silence. So, like, they gave the example of
how, like, when you're in a classroom, the professor
or the teacher is speaking and teaching,
(37:41):
but when there's a test, the teacher is silent,
and the student is answering with what they learned,
you know, and so sometimes, maybe the things that we've been
learning, God is asking us to,
you know, put it to the test, you know, the things that
we've learned about who he is, to trust that.
Um, so I think I put, you
(38:02):
know, what. What we see in the light, we
need to remember in the dark, you know?
Um, and so when we're walking through that
valley, we need to remember the things that we've
learned, you know, um, on the
mountaintop.
>> Loren (38:18):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is really
good conversation. I hope folks can
just get a taste for the book again.
It's Walking with God through the Valley,
Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. Again,
really recommend it. I really appreciate reading it, and I
hope, uh, it's been a blessing to others.
Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing
(38:40):
questions.
All right, we're back with Dr. Mae Young. Thank you so much for
this conversation. Uh, we always tell folks
for these closing questions, you're welcome to take them as
seriously or not as you'd like to. So
if you're pope for a day, what would you want to do
with that day.
>> May Young (39:01):
Um, if I was a pope for a day, I
think I would use
it to call people. And this is something that I,
I just alluded to a little bit earlier, um,
that we have become too individualized. And
I would, uh, call people back to
recognize the body of the church, that we're the body
(39:22):
of Christ and we belong to one another. Um,
and not to, like, phone
it in or zoom it in, but
to become connected into
the church. And one of the things that I talk about,
even in my book, is that loneliness is a huge
kind of, uh, thing that people are struggling with and
(39:43):
people are feeling. And so, you know,
this isolation has brought to a greater
sense of loneliness in the hearts of people. And so really calling
people back to a community and
recognizing, um, the church,
the body of Christ, and the importance of that.
>> Loren (40:00):
Um, the next question, ah,
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want
to meet or bring back to life? I'm also curious,
related to this topic. What
are some historical figures, whether biblical or
historically Christian, who you recognize as
practicing this practice of lament?
>> May Young (40:21):
Well, definitely. So I guess it
would be like David, because
from the book of Psalms. So
I, um, would definitely see him as a person that I would
like to talk to about lament, just
because he is, ah, an author of many of the
Psalms, um, and to ask him about
(40:41):
his thoughts about when he penned these two
laments and his own, you know, process.
I think I ended the book too, where I talked about
how it says that David, uh,
strengthened himself in the Lord.
And what did that look like? Was that really lament,
you know, when he was doing that, you know, finding
strength in the Lord, Uh, the other
(41:04):
person would be like, you know,
um, job, you know, as he's
lamenting his own situation.
Um, and what for
him, you know, like, I really appreciate his
honesty in dealing with, you know, his
situation and his pain before God
as well as, like, Habakkuk,
(41:26):
uh, you know, just some of the people, and
probably someone that I really,
um, really
admire and I really, really learn a lot from his
writings is Henri Nouwen,
which I did quote. Um, he just
thinks so deeply about so many issues.
Um, I really appreciate his thoughts on these things
(41:48):
as well.
>> Loren (41:49):
Yeah.
Thinking about our current time and place, what do you think history
will remember from our current time
and place?
>> May Young (41:58):
Well, I don't know from our current time and
place, but maybe like within our generation for
sure is the pandemic. COVID
19. I think that's gonna be
remembered. I think it just. And
that shutdown of the world
that had happened. Like, that's
(42:18):
unprecedented, you know.
Um, so I. You know
what I remember? Yeah.
>> Loren (42:25):
Let me ask this vame, because I just saw this
somewhere on social media. This idea
that there's a thought that
our society right now is dealing with unprocessed
grief and pain from the COVID
pandemic. You write about lament. Do you
think we need to lament more or we should have
(42:46):
lamented more? The pandemic?
Like, do you think there's this so rush to get back to
normal?
>> May Young (42:54):
You know what? Maybe I don't
know what can be done in terms of like,
you know, after the fact in some sense of like.
I don't know if it was like. I don't want to say we should have lamented
more, but. But maybe there are
certain things that people could think about.
One thing is interesting is I feel like
(43:14):
the younger generation is dealing with a lot more anxiety.
>> Loren (43:17):
Yeah.
>> May Young (43:18):
Um. And not knowing how to,
you know, process a lot of things and
a lot of them even attributing some
of the things that happened during the COVID
pandemic during their formative years.
Um, and so, you know, there
might be things there to actually think about instead of just
(43:38):
getting back into life as it is
to recognize what could be part of
that that is contributing to the anxiety. Um,
that's there as well. So, you know,
I think there's definitely things for us to
really, uh, be more
reflective about. Perhaps, you know,
(44:00):
this is a question of, you know, as a society as a whole,
maybe we're, um, very do
oriented, very busy, very,
um, and so that we don't have time for
reflection. And, uh,
maybe this is good if we spent
more time in reflection about that. And I think sometimes people
don't even know where to start. You know, they're just.
(44:23):
Because they're just always on the go. It's almost like when people
are always on the go, when they have time to stop,
they don't even know what to do with themselves. And so maybe
this is a time of, you know, how do
we sit before God? How do we sit and
have that time of reflection before him?
>> Loren (44:40):
Yeah. I feel like that's a theme we didn't even explore
enough in this conversation that to lament you almost
have to stop and not just plow through.
>> May Young (44:49):
That's right.
>> Loren (44:50):
Everything.
>> May Young (44:51):
Yep. Yeah. And that's where it's hard. I think people
don't want to stop
and. But sometimes when things are so debilitating,
you have no choice but to
stop. You know, yeah.
>> Loren (45:04):
Okay, last, uh, last question
here. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
>> May Young (45:11):
Well, I, I think some things that I've been hearing
about is like, uh, revival that's taking place
in high schools, in college campuses.
Um, I just think that's so encouraging.
And my hopes is that I want to see
the Lord move powerfully
in this next generation, um, and to
(45:33):
use them to bring about
his work, uh, here,
um, and across the nation and around the world.
And so it's really amazing too, because I have the
privilege of teaching, uh, college students teach at
Taylor University, and just seeing
their passion and knowing, um, just
their call and what God is calling them to do and
(45:55):
just. It's just such a privilege to
see that and, uh, to see what God's doing in the next
generation.
>> Loren (46:03):
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time.
I really appreciate the conversation, your perspectives.
Do you want to share how folks can connect with you?
Get a copy of the book, all that stuff?
>> May Young (46:14):
Sure. Um, well,
uh, right now I am
currently having a website put together.
Um, that'll come up shortly, but, uh,
it's
mayoung.com.
it's not up yet, but it'll be up shortly.
Uh, but in the meantime, you can find
(46:36):
my book on Amazon or Christian
Book Distributors or anywhere.
Um, IVP website as well.
>> Loren (46:45):
Yeah.
>> May Young (46:45):
Um, and so you can
get a copy of the book that way.
>> Loren (46:50):
Well, it'll be a few weeks before this comes out, so hopefully listeners,
uh, be on lookout. Look for
May Young. Right. You said dot com. Hopefully
be up and live around. Maybe we can get that timing
right.
>> May Young (47:03):
Yeah, that sounds great.
>> Loren (47:06):
Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the
conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So
may God's peace be with you.
>> May Young (47:12):
You. Thank you.
>> Loren Richmond (47:21):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to
get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(47:43):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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