October 14, 2025 • 47 mins
What’s worth keeping—and what needs to go—when it comes to modern evangelicalism?
In this episode of the Future Christian Podcast, host Loren Richmond Jr. talks with author Michelle Van Loon, whose new book Downsizing: Letting Go of Evangelicalism’s Non-Essentials explores the story of evangelical faith from its post–World War II roots to today’s crisis of credibility.
Drawing from her own journey—from a secular Jewish upbringing to decades inside evangelical churches—Van Loon offers an unflinching yet hopeful look at the movement’s excesses, blind spots, and spiritual gifts worth preserving.
Together, Loren and Michelle unpack:
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The distinction between revival and revivalism—and why chasing emotional “mountaintop” moments misses the point.
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The long shadow of leaders like James Dobson and Bill Gothard, and how their influence shaped evangelical culture.
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The roots of authoritarianism and control in religious systems—and what healthy spiritual authority looks like.
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Why humility and listening matter more than programs or platforms.
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What it means to “downsize” faith while still holding on to Jesus.
Van Loon reminds listeners that faith is not about clinging to institutions but about rediscovering the way of Christ—one marked by honesty, empathy, and hope.
👉 Subscribe to the Future Christian Podcast for more honest conversations about leadership, theology, and the future of the church.
Michelle Van Loon’s writing is shaped by her deeply rooted faith in Christ, secular Jewish heritage, spiritual hunger, and storyteller’s sensibilities. She has been a regular contributor to Christianity Today magazine, and has articles at a number of other digital sites.. Her eight books include her newest, Downsizing: Letting Go of Evangelicalism's Nonessentials. You can learn more about her work at her website, michellevanloon.com or connect with her at her little corner of Substack, which is called Transforming Words.
Mentioned Resources:
🌐 Website: michellevanloon.com
📖 Her Book:: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802884626/downsizing/
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Joelle Kidd
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Robert Schuller
🎧 Episodes Referenced: J. Michael Jordan
🎧 Episodes Referenced: Mike Cosper
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Michelle Van Loon. Michelle's writing is shaped by
her deeply rooted faith in Christ, secular Jewish
heritage, spiritual hunger, and her storytellers
sensibilities. She has been a regular contributor
to Christianity Today magazine and has articles at
(01:06):
a number of other digital sites. Her eight books
include her newest, Downsizing Letting Go of
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. A reminder,
before we start today's conversation, please take
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
(01:26):
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
Instagram. Shoot us an email@, uh,
laurensonatemediapro.com with comments, questions
or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a
lot in making this podcast possible.
>> Loren (01:52):
Hey friends, this is Loren Richmond. Before we
dive in, a quick note. Due to some tech issues
during recording, we had to splice a few parts of
this interview together. You might notice a few
clunky transitions here and there and we did our
best to smooth things out, but we felt that this
conversation with Michelle was too important not
to share. So thanks for your grace as you listen
(02:15):
in. Hello and welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. Today I am
pleased to be joined by Michelle Van Loon. Hello.
Welcome to the show.
>> Michelle (02:33):
Hey, I'm so glad to be with you. Thanks.
>> Loren (02:36):
Yeah, absolutely looking forward to having this
conversation. Anything else you want listeners to
know about you?
>> Michelle (02:42):
I think we're all going to hear plenty as our
conversation continues. So let's jump in.
>> Loren (02:49):
Let's do it. You know, my previous guest, or
excuse me, Martha, my co host had with a previous
guest, ah, Joel Kidd, a similar kind of
conversation like this where much of her book
revolved around her, her story. So I don't know if
you want to. Let's just perhaps let's uh, jump
(03:11):
right in, I suppose, or I suppose.
First, let me ask this. Since this is a question
related or unrelated, somewhat, uh, spiritual
practices, any kind of spiritual practices or
disciplines you find meaningful or you. Or you're
willing to share.
>> Michelle (03:24):
Yeah, I really appreciate this question. Things
that have sustained me, um, which I guess
translates to meaningful, um, over the 50 years
that I've been a, uh, Jesus follower. Um, Bible
reading, for sure. Um, whether anything is amazing
(03:51):
or new or whether it's just the putting one foot
in front of the other and continuing to journey in
the company of scripture and its author. That has
been, um, really foundational through all of the
bits of my story and all of the peaks and valleys.
(04:14):
Um, I appreciate being able to visit every month
with a spiritual director who just kind of
companions me, um, right where I am without
judgment, but with just a really intentional set
(04:34):
of listening ears that sometimes is kind of all I
need to be able to hear God more clearly.
>> Loren (04:43):
Well, Michelle is the author of the book
Downsizing Letting Go of Evangelicalism's Non
Essentials, which I guess as we're recording, this
has been out three days.
>> Michelle (04:55):
Yes.
>> Loren (04:55):
So congratulations on that.
>> Michelle (04:57):
A whole three days. Yeah. Thank you very much.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Now this is. How many books is this for you?
This is few. Right.
>> Michelle (05:05):
This is number eight, which really says more about
the fact that I'm a very loquacious person. I have
lots of words in me, so.
>> Loren (05:17):
Well, that is. I mean.
>> Michelle (05:18):
I, uh.
>> Loren (05:18):
Mean, you said it. Loquacious. That is. You do
have lots of words in you, so. Well, I'm looking
forward to having this conversation about this
book. And I think it was most interesting to me as
it. As I read it, is that the book functions like
a memoir and a journey from the beginning of the
evangelical movement to present day. Like, it was
(05:40):
almost like a history of sorts. And I wondered,
like, was that intentional? I really appreciate
that.
>> Michelle (05:47):
It. It was intentional. It's not a, uh, true
memoir because any memoir will not have 200 plus
footnotes. Um, it also speaks to the fact that in
addition to my many words, I am also, um, a
voracious researcher, um, because I'm always
(06:10):
trying to make sense of my experience and our
experience, um, as human beings. And so, um, I use
my story as a framing device, but I also use it to
be able to introduce people to the various
evangelical isms, because there are lots of
(06:34):
different shadings within that big, messy
umbrella. And so, um, because I've been
everywhere, like Johnny Cash. I've been
everywhere, man. And, um, really have, so.
>> Loren (06:50):
Well, why don't you share just a little bit about
that journey then, since we kind of teased it
already.
>> Michelle (06:56):
Okay.
>> Loren (06:56):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (06:58):
Excuse me. I. My parents, who are both deceased,
were Jewish. I grew up in A fairly secular Jewish
household, um, kind of think Jerry Seinfeld's
parents and you would be pretty on the money. And
(07:19):
I was always a very spiritual, restless person,
um, even as a little kid and wanted to know God
and was very curious and hungry. And that
curiosity dovetailed with the tail end of the
(07:40):
Jesus movement. Um, in the early 70s, it was
popping all around. And, um, I had a friend who
came to school one day and told me that she had
become a Christian the night before. And I said to
her, but everybody here is a Christian except for,
(08:02):
like, us few Jewish kids that are sprinkled in the
mix. And she said, no, no, no, I, I started a new
relationship with God. All of that language that
goes with the Jesus movement, I had no idea what
she was talking about. But we continued to have
that conversation over the following months as I
(08:25):
wrestled with what I thought I knew about God from
my limited religious exposure and my own reading
of Bible stories as I, as a little kid matching it
with what she said. And we smoked a lot of weed
while we did this. And so I always tell people,
(08:47):
God's word never returns void. Um, and that
includes. That includes that. Which is not, I
don't think, a recognized evangelism technique.
But God met us there. Um, he meets us all kinds of
places. And so.
>> Loren (09:04):
Michelle, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We might
have to put like an end.
>> Michelle (09:07):
No worries.
>> Loren (09:07):
We might have to put like a, you know, parental
advisory warning on this.
>> Michelle (09:11):
I know, Yeah, I don't recommend this and you won't
learn it in seminary, but it's, um, nonetheless,
eventually I, I've wound my way to a conversation
with somebody who was not smoking weed, who was
older, who actually knew what he was talking
(09:33):
about, which my friend, is wonderful. She is. And
I saw her this week, as a matter of fact. We don't
live in the same state anymore, but she happened
to be in my area, and so it was fun to reconnect
with her. But, um, he said to me, in light of all
of your questions, I challenge you to start
(09:54):
reading in the New Testament. Read the Gospel of
John. And. And I did. And at the beginning of my
reading, I didn't believe and I didn't understand
why the God that I knew from my Jewish upbringing
had a son. And what does this talk about? The Holy
Spirit. It was all very mind blowing to me, but at
(10:18):
the end I knew, I believed. Uh, you know, there
was no Billy Graham moment, no organ playing, no
just as I am. All of those tropes of kind of mid
Century evangelicalism. Um, but here I was. But
the book starts, um, that we're talking about
(10:41):
downsizing, as that decision led to my parents
telling me, as long as you're living under a roof,
you cannot go to church. And they hoped they could
just starve this out. A fad like hula hoops and
blue eyeshadow and bell bottoms and all the. All
(11:03):
those things. And it. I had good sneaking skills,
so I still snuck to stuff. But most of my
formation in those first three years was reading
the Bible and learning what it said about church
and kind of gleaning, um, from other people's
(11:26):
experience and things that I would see on TV or
hear on Christian radio. And so, um, when I was
free to begin attending church, um, I was in for,
um, some surprises. It wasn't like I imagined. Um,
(11:48):
in some ways, there were some things that were
better because it was embodied relationships. And
in other ways, the book highlights lots of
excesses and wrong directions, uh, bad theology.
And it looks like I'm. I might be losing you.
>> Loren (12:09):
No, you're still here. Just.
>> Michelle (12:11):
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll keep going. I'm getting a
message.
>> Loren (12:14):
If you drop off, we'll go again.
>> Michelle (12:19):
Okay. So that journey into evangelicalism led m me
to all kinds of different church settings. We
moved, um, quite a bit. I got married when I was
20. I'm still married. Um, I wouldn't necessarily
(12:42):
recommend everybody get married that young, but,
um, it's worked out pretty well. We've been
married for almost 46 years, um, which. We're both
pretty stubborn people. Which is.
>> Loren (12:55):
Probably has something to do with.
>> Michelle (12:59):
Might have a little something to do with it. Um,
but we've been everywhere from very, very
conservative, um, circles, Plymouth Brethren and
Bible Church, lots of rules, lots of behavior
codes, to very wild, charismatic circles, um,
(13:23):
which all of it has kind of morphed together to
feed what's kind of blown up in our current time,
um, into a pretty big and bad case of Christian
nationalism in a lot of those circles.
>> Loren (13:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think. I mean, I think one
thing that stands out from your story is there are
many who've. Who've deconstructed their way out of
evangelicalism, Christianity in the church. I
mean, in your book, you don't pull any punches.
Like you're not skipping around, you know, shining
(14:05):
over the challenges and the problems and the abuse
and the scandals within evangelicalism, which so
often is why people just wash their hands of it
and leave.
>> Michelle (14:17):
Absolutely.
>> Loren (14:18):
What has kept you in it?
>> Michelle (14:22):
Um, I, you know, I should have a glib quick answer
for that question. Um, I actually think that those
first three years that I was a believer, uh, where
I was kind of on my own, really, there wasn't a
(14:45):
community around me. There was nobody kind of
telling me, read this or don't read that. I would
sneak to the Christian bookstore and I bought, um,
all manner of books, from very, very bad theology
to very, very good theology. And, um, I. God, God
(15:05):
met me there and he has continued to kind of hold
me. Do. Do I sign off on a lot of what I've
experienced and seen? No, no, no, no. Is garbage.
Um, a lot of it has, um, been deeply traumatic and
(15:29):
wounding to people. Um, and there's been a lot of
energy invested in building institutions, um, and
propping up people that, um, should have been
spent, you know, maybe a little more emphasis on
the words in the Sermon on the Mount and a little
(15:51):
less on, um, triumphalism and, um, you know,
winning.
So.
>> Loren (15:58):
Okay, let me ask you a hard question then, as this
just front of mind, having just gone in the news
and kind of speaks to what you've already spoken
about. I think it was yesterday, the day before we
learned of the passing of James Dobson. And I
mean, I think it's hard to, in my estimation,
(16:21):
understate how much of an influence he was within
evangelicalism and really conservative fundamental
Christianity. M. Being in Colorado, you know, I
didn't live in Colorado Springs, but, uh, you
know, it was still. Even living north of him. It
was still kind of obvious what a magnetism focus
(16:43):
on the family had. You know, I'll be frank, like,
I'm not one to dance on someone's grave, but I
also want to speak somewhat forthright. So, I
mean, what do you think about do it? Uh, well, I'm
asking you. Like, I just think, like, you know, I
wrote a note just yesterday. I think it was on
(17:03):
substack notes about like, you know, I think he
took himself probably too seriously, as perhaps I
am want to do. And I think he did not recognize
the repercussions of everything he.
>> Michelle (17:17):
He said.
>> Loren (17:18):
So, um, what do you have to add to that?
>> Michelle (17:21):
Well, he is a representative in a lot of ways and
he was a huge influence. I'm 66, so I grew up as a
young adult in the ascendancy of the power and
influence. It might be, uh, a function of my own
(17:43):
current social media feed, but I did not see a lot
of, um, sadness about the reports of Dr. Dobson's
death that hit yesterday. Um, there are people
that are mourning him. He was a great man. He was
a great servant, um, of the church. I came of age
(18:09):
as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. He was
everywhere. And when I think of a person and their
ideas becoming an institution and a fortress, he
is a really good example of that. Between Focus on
(18:29):
the Family, Family Research Council, even
Adventures in Odyssey, all of um, the conferences
he um, sponsored or his organization sponsored,
um, as an outreach to parents who had kids in the
LGBTQ community. No matter what he did, he was ah,
(18:55):
a towering figure, um, and very influential. And
the amount of pain that his ideas left behind as a
deposit in so many families lives, including my
own, um, I don't think it can be overstated. Um,
(19:17):
the anger and the frustration that is coming out
among those who've been wounded by his teaching,
um, the amount of people that are triggered. Just
hearing his name is not a small thing. That grief
and that anger and that frustration means
something.
>> Loren (19:38):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (19:39):
And um, that's for people like my husband and I
who were looking for guidance on how to parent
differently than the households we'd come from for
how to honor God. Everyone pointed us. This is the
guy with the answers. He's on the air every day
(20:02):
with his warm voice and his great sounding advice.
Some of it was helpful, a lot of it wasn't. A lot
of it was harmful. And um, it fed into the bigger
kind of unhealth. That is a lot of people are
(20:24):
deconstructing from, um, and have been for the
last 20 years, um, that the word deconstruction is
while it comes from philosophy. But ah, the word
deconstruction as applied to faith, um, might feel
newer than that. But um, honestly the rise of the
(20:46):
emergent church and some of the questions that
people started asking at the end of the 90s and
into the 2000s, early 2000s are all part of the
same, uh, movement of where we are. And that it's
a reaction and a response to the Dr. Dobsons and
(21:10):
all of the other kind of characters that I talk
about in my book.
>> Loren (21:16):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned it because I think
this leads well into other themes you explore in
the book. Like I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of.
You know, you're right about this tendency within
evangelicalism. I mean really like evangelicalism
and fundamentalism. I grew up more in
fundamentalism, but they operate with many of the
(21:37):
same.
>> Michelle (21:38):
Kind of big overlap.
>> Loren (21:41):
Mhm, right. A lot of overlap. Not, I wouldn't say
they're one in the same, but a lot of overlap.
>> Michelle (21:45):
Sure.
>> Loren (21:46):
But a lot of the same kind of assumptions and this
thing that. This need to protect or guard against
the evil out there. I know Mike Cosper, just like
he did that new podcast series on that kind of
same theme. You write about that in your book. I'm
thinking two things here. One is that kind of need
(22:08):
to guard against. And two, which I'm thinking of
other leaders like Bill Gothard. I think about
someone who has formed it for my own upbringing,
like Joshua Harris. You know, this kind of idea,
like within those circles of like we're really, we
(22:28):
really want someone who can tell us all the
answers.
>> Michelle (22:31):
Yes, yes. And um, for people of my generation, I'm
66. Mhm. Um, we. We were looking at. Not all of
us. I probably shouldn't even use the word we, but
I can say me for sure and a whole lot of other
(22:55):
people that I've known. We're looking for
structure. We're looking for rules. We're looking
for parents, spiritual parents who could guide us,
um, and kind of show us how to navigate in a very,
um, unpredictable world and a very scary world.
(23:16):
Um, although we didn't say we were scared, we
didn't even. We were completely disconnected from
the idea of that we were animated by fear. Um, so
to have somebody say, here are the rules. Bill
Gothard is, I have, I have lots to say about him
(23:40):
too. But Bill Gothard, um, gave a whole lot of
baby boomers and those that came after them the
security of being able to know where the lines
were, how to color in them, and how to color in
them using a box of eight crayons. No more, no
(24:02):
less. Yeah, I remember being in kindergarten and
when I was a kid and always wishing someone would
give me the box of 64. Um, there were always a
couple of kids in class, the show off kids that
showed up with the box of 64. I guess we only
needed 32, um, you know, in our school supply box.
(24:23):
So that's what I got. But Bill Gothard said,
here's your eight crayons and here's the lines.
And yeah, there was a lot of security in. Or it's
fake security because life is never that, that
simple. And the Bible isn't just a rule book,
(24:46):
right. Of, of coloring pages. So I, I spent time
in those circles in, in very fundamentalist
circles. Um, always with the sense that I, I was
not measuring up. There was no way I could do
this. Right. And um, at the same time I had a mind
(25:12):
and I was reading and asking questions and I was
married to a guy who loved theology as much as Me
and was asking questions. And, um, and those
questions grew us. They didn't shrink us. They
didn't require us to give up two or three more of
those eight crayons. So, um, you know, and we've.
(25:35):
We've also spent time in charismatic circles, um,
not necessarily as a. A reaction. Always longing
for connection, always longing for communion.
Always longing for the family of God to be the
family of God. Um, I found pieces, remnants, in a
(26:00):
lot of those spaces. Not all, um, but it was never
the person holding the microphone. It was never
the person running the big program, um, raising
money or flogging us onto the next exciting
mountaintop experience or whatever. The thing was,
(26:21):
um, there those sacred people were that showed me
the church that I knew I was reading about in the
Bible. The flawed and beautiful church. They were
there all along, which is why I'm still here.
>> Loren (26:41):
Wow. You said so much here. And I feel like I've
taken this conversation far off script from what I
wanted to. And I suppose it's good because I think
it's important perspectives. But I gotta ask
another hard question, and I feel like you're up
for it, but.
>> Michelle (26:54):
Sure.
>> Loren (26:55):
Like, I, Like, I'm just thinking about this in. In
this concept of, like, reactionary. You know, you
talk about this seeking security, being animated
by fear. All things like no one would admit to.
Especially, you know, in the 90s. I'm thinking 80s
90s, early 2000s.
>> Michelle (27:14):
Yeah.
>> Loren (27:16):
Um, like, I think. Tell me if you don't disagree.
But I think it'd be fair to say in many ways
evangelicalism was a reaction of, like, the
societal disruption. So I guess my big question
that I'm trying to get at is like, is the whole
project irreparably broken? You know what?
>> Michelle (27:40):
Right.
>> Loren (27:41):
And I hate to ask that because, like, I'm not like
a. I try not to be like a hot taker, evangelical
basher.
>> Michelle (27:50):
I, um, think you're asking a fair question.
Evangelicalism's roots go back way further than 50
years. Modern kind of post World War II
evangelicalism is what I focus on in the book.
>> Loren (28:06):
Right.
>> Michelle (28:07):
But that didn't come out of nothing. It was not ex
nihilo. There was all of. There's a whole bunch of
background and backstory that fed evangelicalism.
Billy Sunday was, you know, and George Whitfield,
and there's all of these voices that helped to
(28:27):
cultivate the soil that then erupted into modern
evangelicalism.
>> Loren (28:33):
Right.
>> Michelle (28:34):
So is the. Is the whole foundation bad? A lot of
it is not. It's not worth saving. I mean, that's
Kind of what I say in the book. But. But there's a
big but. That's not the whole story. Um, what.
Another thing that's kind of saved my faith over
(28:58):
the years. Um, a good counselor, number one. Um,
not going to lie. Um, spiritual director, good,
honest, faithful friends. Um, you know, and some
of those examples of people that really believed
what, What Jesus was saying, um, all of those have
(29:22):
acted as salt and light for me.
>> Loren (29:24):
Right.
>> Michelle (29:25):
The other thing is that I loved church history.
I've always loved church history. And being able
to, um, read church history and have the long view
of what has come before, the corruption, um, the
(29:46):
bad teaching, the heresy, um, the crusades. I
mean, you can go down, down the line. Um, helps me
put some of this in perspective.
>> Loren (30:01):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (30:02):
But, um, it also helps me want to continue to push
people and advocate for a church that will exist
after I'm gone. And after you're gone, which is
the central question of the book. What's worth
keeping? We're in a period of downsizing.
(30:23):
Although, if you listen to some people, um, you
know, evangelicalism is bigger and better. And
there's some statistics, depending on who's doing
the stats and what the lens is, that show that
evangelicalism, even in America, in the west, is.
Is still growing. In some places, it's growing a
(30:44):
lot faster. Um, in the Global south. In other
places, for sure. And it doesn't look as anything
like what we have going. There's no focus on the
family, you know, edifice in Colorado Springs, for
example, you know, in all of these different
places in the world. Um, but that said, being able
(31:08):
to figure out what is of lasting value, it's just
shocking how much. Right. Better said how little
there is. Uh, so the answer is there's not
nothing, but there's not, Uh, a lot of where we've
invested our energy will not. Will not last. And
(31:32):
it shouldn't last.
>> Loren (31:34):
Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you bring up, like, the
historical perspective, because certainly, like
you said, like I'm thinking even the tradition I'm
a part of, the Christian Church, Disciples of
Christ, really stems out of, like, the broader
kind of like, low E, smaller lowercase evangelical
(31:54):
movement, which I think we. We put like Methodism
historically with that movement and so forth and
so on. Um, but you're right, a lot of the modern
trappings have been, uh, problematic, to say the
least, in those institutions.
So that leads me to another question that you. Or
another theme you talk about in your book. And I'm
(32:16):
reminded of this from a, uh, I Don't know if
you're familiar with the author J. Michael Jordan,
who talks about anxiety and worship and how like
the modern kind of evangelical non denominational
service is kind of like predicated on building
like a mini revival service.
>> Michelle (32:32):
Absolutely, absolutely.
>> Loren (32:34):
So what I thought it was important that you talked
about distinguishing between revival and
revivalism. I've been loosely following the story
of Asbury and.
>> Michelle (32:46):
Mhm.
>> Loren (32:47):
I find it compelling. I'm just gonna be honest, I
find it compelling and I think, God, I hope this
is real and I hope do something in my neck of the
woods too.
>> Michelle (33:00):
Mhm.
>> Loren (33:01):
But also I think like you talk about, there's been
this thing of like, can we manufacture revival?
>> Michelle (33:06):
Yes. And depending on who's doing the definition
of what revival is, uh, you end up with everything
from just a supernatural download of emotional
fireworks and all kinds of signs and war wonders
(33:27):
and people just confessing their sins randomly and
healings happening that's in one stream, in
another stream. It's that um, you end up with kind
of like what John Calvin was hoping to create in
Switzerland. A society that's just so ordered and
(33:51):
orderly and everybody is following the rules,
coloring in the lines with their eight crayons
that um, you know that that's what revival looks
like.
>> Loren (34:03):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (34:03):
And you end up with a lot of people either
manufacturing it. We're having revival services.
To me, um, every Southern Baptist church that's
ever said we're having a week of revival services.
And like, I don't think that works that way. Um,
but people want goosebumps and they want the next
(34:25):
exciting thing. And evangelicalism is notorious
for that in all of its different streams. That's
for every definition, every wonderful kind of
definition of what makes an evangelical. An
evangelical revivalism, um, is kind of the
(34:47):
undercurrent, the dark underbelly of some of that
um, description. So revival in itself is something
that makes more sense in retrospect.
>> Loren (35:04):
Mhm.
>> Michelle (35:04):
It happens. God moves. I believe that that's true.
I still believe that that's true. So I was like
you, I was very interested with when there were
these extended services at Asbury and people were
coming forward and confessing their sins. And I
gave them, and continue to give them great credit
(35:27):
for recognizing that. Of course everyone came
swooping in and rushing in to, you know, try and
get a piece of that, take it home with them or
make it happen or you know, whatever, whatever,
um, the motivation was. And they really tried to
(35:48):
make sure that non famous people and uh, non
celebrities were a part of it. And they, they they
tried to steward what was happening as well as
they could. And it's like they learned some
lessons from all of the bells and whistles and
(36:13):
circuses, Christian circuses that had gone before.
And um, was it a revival? Was it just a hiccup?
Um, time will tell how much stands. And that
humility is something that's often lacking when
(36:34):
revival is talked about.
>> Loren (36:37):
I'm so glad you shared that point about humility.
And as you're talking about revival, I couldn't
help but think about a few years back, I was able
to be. I'm not sure if you've heard of this place.
Caneridge, Kentucky.
>> Michelle (36:49):
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I was baptized in a Christian
church and so, uh, Disciples of Christ. And so I
have some experience in that world. Yeah. And
Cayden Ridge was huge.
>> Loren (37:01):
Yeah, I mean, I was there and it's, it's ah. Yeah.
I mean, it feels like hollow ground. And I wonder,
like, maybe there's something in the water there
in Kentucky. I don't know. Um, but I'm also, you
know, I remember like standing, uh, around that
building and thinking like, boy, you know what,
200 years ago, roughly, it was, if I'm doing my
(37:24):
math right, they were just camping out and stuff
started happening and it was.
There were no bells and whistles, which I'm going
to use as a transition to another thing I want to
talk about because I think that's such an
interesting point you bring up about the bells and
whistles and the next exciting thing. A few
episodes back, I had a conversation with two
(37:46):
authors who wrote about, gosh blank on his name
now, Crystal, uh, cathedral guy.
>> Michelle (37:53):
Oh, Shuler.
>> Loren (37:54):
Shuler, yeah. Yeah. And I think in so many ways he
exemplified. Maybe not exemplified, but he first
really got it started on this bells and whistles
thing of like, you probably heard this term
before, of like the purple cow obsession in
church.
>> Michelle (38:10):
Mhm. And that business of drawing a crowd. And I
use every single one of those words intentionally.
Yeah. That business of drawing a crowd has fueled
every unhealthy kind of thing that's happened in
(38:31):
the church. From the church growth movement, which
Shuler was a big part of, to, um, if you look at,
um, Charisma magazine, who reports on the
charismatic world, anytime that there is a church
(38:51):
service that lasts a little too long, or people,
you know, there's a stirring of emotions. This is
the next hotspot for revival. And it's a drug
that, um, they're pursuing the gifts and not the
giver. And that lack of, that lack of self
(39:16):
awareness that this isn't something we can
manufacture. Um, whether it is in a beautifully
ordered society like um, a Doug Wilson keeps
pushing for. Yeah, I, um, mean we've got it all
over the place. And um, even though we've touched
on a lot of these different names, like from Cam
(39:39):
Ridge to Doug Wilson to Bill Gothard, there's um,
a longing for power and control that is the
opposite of what, ah, a revived life looks like.
>> Loren (39:56):
Mhm. I suppose that's a good question here to end
this section on whether we're talking about Bill
Gothard or Schuller or. Or Dobson. There does seem
to be this tendency within evangelicalism of. I
think you write about a symbiotic relationship
(40:17):
between authoritarianism and authoritarian
evangelicalism. Mhm.
>> Michelle (40:23):
Again, what do you think it goes back to? We're
looking for somebody to tell us where the lines
are and hand us the crayons.
>> Loren (40:36):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (40:37):
Maybe you get 12 crayons, maybe you don't get
eight. But it's that desire for control and power.
Um, it's in each one of us. I'm not going to just
point at this bad leader and that bad leader. Um,
because those of us that have been especially in
(40:59):
high control kinds of toxic environments m. Are.
Are responding to the same, to the same thing. Um,
and the goal should be spiritual health. Um, we
use the term growth. We use it in terms of church,
(41:20):
we use it in terms of spiritual growth. It's not
bad. But um, to become healthy and move towards
wholeness leads us in different places than um,
authoritarianism does. And in church settings
(41:41):
there's no end of people holding microphones and
telling us how to live. And we need good guidance.
We need shepherds. We don't need, um, the kind of
shepherding that I describe in one of the chapters
of the book, which was a function of second wave
care, charismatic renewal, um, that how did it do
(42:03):
a lot of damage. And it also created an
environment, um, that birthed Christian
nationalism.
>> Loren (42:10):
So yeah, yeah. I mean such, such heavy but
important and wow. Important, uh, conversations
and topics that we could spend so much time
talking about. I feel like I need to take a deep
breath here. Just kind of.
>> Michelle (42:32):
Whoo.
>> Loren (42:34):
I really appreciate the conversation. Again, uh,
the book is Downsizing Letting Go of
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. Let's take a
quick break and let's come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Michelle Van Loon. And
Michelle, really appreciate your conversation,
your frankness, your openness. So you've said
(42:58):
you're geared up for this one so if you're Pope
for a day, what do you want to do with that day?
>> Michelle (43:03):
Okay, so best question. I love this question. I
would be a terrible Pope for so many too many
opinions. But, um, if I had 24 hours, I would, um,
(43:24):
make sure I was out there washing some feet. I
would get rid of the white outfit because, um, I
get stains on myself very easily.
>> Loren (43:35):
Sure.
>> Michelle (43:35):
Um, I would go find people who had been
disenfranchised by the church, and I would ask
them to tell me their stories. And I would not
rush in with prescriptions. I would make sure I
had some Kleenex. Um, and maybe we could use my
(43:56):
white outfit that I was no longer wearing as
Kleenex. Um, and then maybe to end the day, I
would go to a White Sox game because the current
Pope. I'm from Chicago. Um, and, uh, the Pope, the
current Pope was a Sox fan, much to my husband's
(44:19):
delight. I'm a Cubs person, but, um, you know, we
know about long time, long suffering, terrible
teams in Chicago.
>> Loren (44:30):
Like, yeah.
>> Michelle (44:31):
You know, especially the Cubs. But that's how I
would. That's how I would end the day. And I'd
make it free for everybody who could fit in the
stadium and we would just have a good time, eaten
ballpark food together.
>> Loren (44:45):
Love that. Yeah, love that. You know, it's
hilarious. Like, of all the problems with the
Internet, like, somehow that the someone on the
Internet found a picture of the Pope at the World
Series.
>> Michelle (44:56):
Yes. It's so cool.
>> Loren (44:58):
Incredible.
>> Michelle (44:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (44:59):
Epic.
Okay, I'm gonna spin this question that I had for
you. So often we can kind of name names and tell
stories of all these bad m. Troublemakers in
evangelicalism, when I know there's been countless
faithful, quiet servants. Mhm. Whose one or two
(45:23):
you'd.
>> Michelle (45:23):
Hm.
>> Loren (45:23):
Want to lift up. Whether well known or not, they
are not well known.
>> Michelle (45:28):
They will never be well known, probably. Although
I did name one in the book. So I'll start with her
every Friday morning. Just about every Friday
morning, including this morning. Um, because we're
taping on a Friday, I get on the phone with my
prayer partner of 25 years. Her name is Meg
(45:51):
Kozlick. And, um, we tell each other the truth
about our lives and we pray. We used to live in
the same town. And that connection has continued
and continued and continued.
>> Loren (46:09):
Um.
>> Michelle (46:11):
We all need someone with whom we can be ourselves.
And, um, everyone needs that way more than a good
program or amazing, um, worship music or a smoke
machine or, you know, whatever goes on in
(46:33):
institutional Christianity. We need somebody who
sees us and knows us.
>> Loren Richmond (46:48):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
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touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
(47:10):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
Michelle Van Loon. Michelle's writing is shaped by
her deeply rooted faith in Christ, secular Jewish
heritage, spiritual hunger, and her storytellers
sensibilities. She has been a regular contributor
to Christianity Today magazine and has articles at
(01:06):
a number of other digital sites. Her eight books
include her newest, Downsizing Letting Go of
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. A reminder,
before we start today's conversation, please take
a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
(01:26):
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a
lot in making this podcast possible.
>> Loren (01:52):
Hey friends, this is Loren Richmond. Before we
dive in, a quick note. Due to some tech issues
during recording, we had to splice a few parts of
this interview together. You might notice a few
clunky transitions here and there and we did our
best to smooth things out, but we felt that this
conversation with Michelle was too important not
to share. So thanks for your grace as you listen
(02:15):
in. Hello and welcome to the Future Christian
Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. Today I am
pleased to be joined by Michelle Van Loon. Hello.
Welcome to the show.
>> Michelle (02:33):
Hey, I'm so glad to be with you. Thanks.
>> Loren (02:36):
Yeah, absolutely looking forward to having this
conversation. Anything else you want listeners to
know about you?
>> Michelle (02:42):
I think we're all going to hear plenty as our
conversation continues. So let's jump in.
>> Loren (02:49):
Let's do it. You know, my previous guest, or
excuse me, Martha, my co host had with a previous
guest, ah, Joel Kidd, a similar kind of
conversation like this where much of her book
revolved around her, her story. So I don't know if
you want to. Let's just perhaps let's uh, jump
(03:11):
right in, I suppose, or I suppose.
First, let me ask this. Since this is a question
related or unrelated, somewhat, uh, spiritual
practices, any kind of spiritual practices or
disciplines you find meaningful or you. Or you're
willing to share.
>> Michelle (03:24):
Yeah, I really appreciate this question. Things
that have sustained me, um, which I guess
translates to meaningful, um, over the 50 years
that I've been a, uh, Jesus follower. Um, Bible
reading, for sure. Um, whether anything is amazing
(03:51):
or new or whether it's just the putting one foot
in front of the other and continuing to journey in
the company of scripture and its author. That has
been, um, really foundational through all of the
bits of my story and all of the peaks and valleys.
(04:14):
Um, I appreciate being able to visit every month
with a spiritual director who just kind of
companions me, um, right where I am without
judgment, but with just a really intentional set
(04:34):
of listening ears that sometimes is kind of all I
need to be able to hear God more clearly.
>> Loren (04:43):
Well, Michelle is the author of the book
Downsizing Letting Go of Evangelicalism's Non
Essentials, which I guess as we're recording, this
has been out three days.
>> Michelle (04:55):
Yes.
>> Loren (04:55):
So congratulations on that.
>> Michelle (04:57):
A whole three days. Yeah. Thank you very much.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Now this is. How many books is this for you?
This is few. Right.
>> Michelle (05:05):
This is number eight, which really says more about
the fact that I'm a very loquacious person. I have
lots of words in me, so.
>> Loren (05:17):
Well, that is. I mean.
>> Michelle (05:18):
I, uh.
>> Loren (05:18):
Mean, you said it. Loquacious. That is. You do
have lots of words in you, so. Well, I'm looking
forward to having this conversation about this
book. And I think it was most interesting to me as
it. As I read it, is that the book functions like
a memoir and a journey from the beginning of the
evangelical movement to present day. Like, it was
(05:40):
almost like a history of sorts. And I wondered,
like, was that intentional? I really appreciate
that.
>> Michelle (05:47):
It. It was intentional. It's not a, uh, true
memoir because any memoir will not have 200 plus
footnotes. Um, it also speaks to the fact that in
addition to my many words, I am also, um, a
voracious researcher, um, because I'm always
(06:10):
trying to make sense of my experience and our
experience, um, as human beings. And so, um, I use
my story as a framing device, but I also use it to
be able to introduce people to the various
evangelical isms, because there are lots of
(06:34):
different shadings within that big, messy
umbrella. And so, um, because I've been
everywhere, like Johnny Cash. I've been
everywhere, man. And, um, really have, so.
>> Loren (06:50):
Well, why don't you share just a little bit about
that journey then, since we kind of teased it
already.
>> Michelle (06:56):
Okay.
>> Loren (06:56):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (06:58):
Excuse me. I. My parents, who are both deceased,
were Jewish. I grew up in A fairly secular Jewish
household, um, kind of think Jerry Seinfeld's
parents and you would be pretty on the money. And
(07:19):
I was always a very spiritual, restless person,
um, even as a little kid and wanted to know God
and was very curious and hungry. And that
curiosity dovetailed with the tail end of the
(07:40):
Jesus movement. Um, in the early 70s, it was
popping all around. And, um, I had a friend who
came to school one day and told me that she had
become a Christian the night before. And I said to
her, but everybody here is a Christian except for,
(08:02):
like, us few Jewish kids that are sprinkled in the
mix. And she said, no, no, no, I, I started a new
relationship with God. All of that language that
goes with the Jesus movement, I had no idea what
she was talking about. But we continued to have
that conversation over the following months as I
(08:25):
wrestled with what I thought I knew about God from
my limited religious exposure and my own reading
of Bible stories as I, as a little kid matching it
with what she said. And we smoked a lot of weed
while we did this. And so I always tell people,
(08:47):
God's word never returns void. Um, and that
includes. That includes that. Which is not, I
don't think, a recognized evangelism technique.
But God met us there. Um, he meets us all kinds of
places. And so.
>> Loren (09:04):
Michelle, I'm sorry to interrupt you. We might
have to put like an end.
>> Michelle (09:07):
No worries.
>> Loren (09:07):
We might have to put like a, you know, parental
advisory warning on this.
>> Michelle (09:11):
I know, Yeah, I don't recommend this and you won't
learn it in seminary, but it's, um, nonetheless,
eventually I, I've wound my way to a conversation
with somebody who was not smoking weed, who was
older, who actually knew what he was talking
(09:33):
about, which my friend, is wonderful. She is. And
I saw her this week, as a matter of fact. We don't
live in the same state anymore, but she happened
to be in my area, and so it was fun to reconnect
with her. But, um, he said to me, in light of all
of your questions, I challenge you to start
(09:54):
reading in the New Testament. Read the Gospel of
John. And. And I did. And at the beginning of my
reading, I didn't believe and I didn't understand
why the God that I knew from my Jewish upbringing
had a son. And what does this talk about? The Holy
Spirit. It was all very mind blowing to me, but at
(10:18):
the end I knew, I believed. Uh, you know, there
was no Billy Graham moment, no organ playing, no
just as I am. All of those tropes of kind of mid
Century evangelicalism. Um, but here I was. But
the book starts, um, that we're talking about
(10:41):
downsizing, as that decision led to my parents
telling me, as long as you're living under a roof,
you cannot go to church. And they hoped they could
just starve this out. A fad like hula hoops and
blue eyeshadow and bell bottoms and all the. All
(11:03):
those things. And it. I had good sneaking skills,
so I still snuck to stuff. But most of my
formation in those first three years was reading
the Bible and learning what it said about church
and kind of gleaning, um, from other people's
(11:26):
experience and things that I would see on TV or
hear on Christian radio. And so, um, when I was
free to begin attending church, um, I was in for,
um, some surprises. It wasn't like I imagined. Um,
(11:48):
in some ways, there were some things that were
better because it was embodied relationships. And
in other ways, the book highlights lots of
excesses and wrong directions, uh, bad theology.
And it looks like I'm. I might be losing you.
>> Loren (12:09):
No, you're still here. Just.
>> Michelle (12:11):
Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'll keep going. I'm getting a
message.
>> Loren (12:14):
If you drop off, we'll go again.
>> Michelle (12:19):
Okay. So that journey into evangelicalism led m me
to all kinds of different church settings. We
moved, um, quite a bit. I got married when I was
20. I'm still married. Um, I wouldn't necessarily
(12:42):
recommend everybody get married that young, but,
um, it's worked out pretty well. We've been
married for almost 46 years, um, which. We're both
pretty stubborn people. Which is.
>> Loren (12:55):
Probably has something to do with.
>> Michelle (12:59):
Might have a little something to do with it. Um,
but we've been everywhere from very, very
conservative, um, circles, Plymouth Brethren and
Bible Church, lots of rules, lots of behavior
codes, to very wild, charismatic circles, um,
(13:23):
which all of it has kind of morphed together to
feed what's kind of blown up in our current time,
um, into a pretty big and bad case of Christian
nationalism in a lot of those circles.
>> Loren (13:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think. I mean, I think one
thing that stands out from your story is there are
many who've. Who've deconstructed their way out of
evangelicalism, Christianity in the church. I
mean, in your book, you don't pull any punches.
Like you're not skipping around, you know, shining
(14:05):
over the challenges and the problems and the abuse
and the scandals within evangelicalism, which so
often is why people just wash their hands of it
and leave.
>> Michelle (14:17):
Absolutely.
>> Loren (14:18):
What has kept you in it?
>> Michelle (14:22):
Um, I, you know, I should have a glib quick answer
for that question. Um, I actually think that those
first three years that I was a believer, uh, where
I was kind of on my own, really, there wasn't a
(14:45):
community around me. There was nobody kind of
telling me, read this or don't read that. I would
sneak to the Christian bookstore and I bought, um,
all manner of books, from very, very bad theology
to very, very good theology. And, um, I. God, God
(15:05):
met me there and he has continued to kind of hold
me. Do. Do I sign off on a lot of what I've
experienced and seen? No, no, no, no. Is garbage.
Um, a lot of it has, um, been deeply traumatic and
(15:29):
wounding to people. Um, and there's been a lot of
energy invested in building institutions, um, and
propping up people that, um, should have been
spent, you know, maybe a little more emphasis on
the words in the Sermon on the Mount and a little
(15:51):
less on, um, triumphalism and, um, you know,
winning.
So.
>> Loren (15:58):
Okay, let me ask you a hard question then, as this
just front of mind, having just gone in the news
and kind of speaks to what you've already spoken
about. I think it was yesterday, the day before we
learned of the passing of James Dobson. And I
mean, I think it's hard to, in my estimation,
(16:21):
understate how much of an influence he was within
evangelicalism and really conservative fundamental
Christianity. M. Being in Colorado, you know, I
didn't live in Colorado Springs, but, uh, you
know, it was still. Even living north of him. It
was still kind of obvious what a magnetism focus
(16:43):
on the family had. You know, I'll be frank, like,
I'm not one to dance on someone's grave, but I
also want to speak somewhat forthright. So, I
mean, what do you think about do it? Uh, well, I'm
asking you. Like, I just think, like, you know, I
wrote a note just yesterday. I think it was on
(17:03):
substack notes about like, you know, I think he
took himself probably too seriously, as perhaps I
am want to do. And I think he did not recognize
the repercussions of everything he.
>> Michelle (17:17):
He said.
>> Loren (17:18):
So, um, what do you have to add to that?
>> Michelle (17:21):
Well, he is a representative in a lot of ways and
he was a huge influence. I'm 66, so I grew up as a
young adult in the ascendancy of the power and
influence. It might be, uh, a function of my own
(17:43):
current social media feed, but I did not see a lot
of, um, sadness about the reports of Dr. Dobson's
death that hit yesterday. Um, there are people
that are mourning him. He was a great man. He was
a great servant, um, of the church. I came of age
(18:09):
as a young adult in the 80s and 90s. He was
everywhere. And when I think of a person and their
ideas becoming an institution and a fortress, he
is a really good example of that. Between Focus on
(18:29):
the Family, Family Research Council, even
Adventures in Odyssey, all of um, the conferences
he um, sponsored or his organization sponsored,
um, as an outreach to parents who had kids in the
LGBTQ community. No matter what he did, he was ah,
(18:55):
a towering figure, um, and very influential. And
the amount of pain that his ideas left behind as a
deposit in so many families lives, including my
own, um, I don't think it can be overstated. Um,
(19:17):
the anger and the frustration that is coming out
among those who've been wounded by his teaching,
um, the amount of people that are triggered. Just
hearing his name is not a small thing. That grief
and that anger and that frustration means
something.
>> Loren (19:38):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (19:39):
And um, that's for people like my husband and I
who were looking for guidance on how to parent
differently than the households we'd come from for
how to honor God. Everyone pointed us. This is the
guy with the answers. He's on the air every day
(20:02):
with his warm voice and his great sounding advice.
Some of it was helpful, a lot of it wasn't. A lot
of it was harmful. And um, it fed into the bigger
kind of unhealth. That is a lot of people are
(20:24):
deconstructing from, um, and have been for the
last 20 years, um, that the word deconstruction is
while it comes from philosophy. But ah, the word
deconstruction as applied to faith, um, might feel
newer than that. But um, honestly the rise of the
(20:46):
emergent church and some of the questions that
people started asking at the end of the 90s and
into the 2000s, early 2000s are all part of the
same, uh, movement of where we are. And that it's
a reaction and a response to the Dr. Dobsons and
(21:10):
all of the other kind of characters that I talk
about in my book.
>> Loren (21:16):
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned it because I think
this leads well into other themes you explore in
the book. Like I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of.
You know, you're right about this tendency within
evangelicalism. I mean really like evangelicalism
and fundamentalism. I grew up more in
fundamentalism, but they operate with many of the
(21:37):
same.
>> Michelle (21:38):
Kind of big overlap.
>> Loren (21:41):
Mhm, right. A lot of overlap. Not, I wouldn't say
they're one in the same, but a lot of overlap.
>> Michelle (21:45):
Sure.
>> Loren (21:46):
But a lot of the same kind of assumptions and this
thing that. This need to protect or guard against
the evil out there. I know Mike Cosper, just like
he did that new podcast series on that kind of
same theme. You write about that in your book. I'm
thinking two things here. One is that kind of need
(22:08):
to guard against. And two, which I'm thinking of
other leaders like Bill Gothard. I think about
someone who has formed it for my own upbringing,
like Joshua Harris. You know, this kind of idea,
like within those circles of like we're really, we
(22:28):
really want someone who can tell us all the
answers.
>> Michelle (22:31):
Yes, yes. And um, for people of my generation, I'm
66. Mhm. Um, we. We were looking at. Not all of
us. I probably shouldn't even use the word we, but
I can say me for sure and a whole lot of other
(22:55):
people that I've known. We're looking for
structure. We're looking for rules. We're looking
for parents, spiritual parents who could guide us,
um, and kind of show us how to navigate in a very,
um, unpredictable world and a very scary world.
(23:16):
Um, although we didn't say we were scared, we
didn't even. We were completely disconnected from
the idea of that we were animated by fear. Um, so
to have somebody say, here are the rules. Bill
Gothard is, I have, I have lots to say about him
(23:40):
too. But Bill Gothard, um, gave a whole lot of
baby boomers and those that came after them the
security of being able to know where the lines
were, how to color in them, and how to color in
them using a box of eight crayons. No more, no
(24:02):
less. Yeah, I remember being in kindergarten and
when I was a kid and always wishing someone would
give me the box of 64. Um, there were always a
couple of kids in class, the show off kids that
showed up with the box of 64. I guess we only
needed 32, um, you know, in our school supply box.
(24:23):
So that's what I got. But Bill Gothard said,
here's your eight crayons and here's the lines.
And yeah, there was a lot of security in. Or it's
fake security because life is never that, that
simple. And the Bible isn't just a rule book,
(24:46):
right. Of, of coloring pages. So I, I spent time
in those circles in, in very fundamentalist
circles. Um, always with the sense that I, I was
not measuring up. There was no way I could do
this. Right. And um, at the same time I had a mind
(25:12):
and I was reading and asking questions and I was
married to a guy who loved theology as much as Me
and was asking questions. And, um, and those
questions grew us. They didn't shrink us. They
didn't require us to give up two or three more of
those eight crayons. So, um, you know, and we've.
(25:35):
We've also spent time in charismatic circles, um,
not necessarily as a. A reaction. Always longing
for connection, always longing for communion.
Always longing for the family of God to be the
family of God. Um, I found pieces, remnants, in a
(26:00):
lot of those spaces. Not all, um, but it was never
the person holding the microphone. It was never
the person running the big program, um, raising
money or flogging us onto the next exciting
mountaintop experience or whatever. The thing was,
(26:21):
um, there those sacred people were that showed me
the church that I knew I was reading about in the
Bible. The flawed and beautiful church. They were
there all along, which is why I'm still here.
>> Loren (26:41):
Wow. You said so much here. And I feel like I've
taken this conversation far off script from what I
wanted to. And I suppose it's good because I think
it's important perspectives. But I gotta ask
another hard question, and I feel like you're up
for it, but.
>> Michelle (26:54):
Sure.
>> Loren (26:55):
Like, I, Like, I'm just thinking about this in. In
this concept of, like, reactionary. You know, you
talk about this seeking security, being animated
by fear. All things like no one would admit to.
Especially, you know, in the 90s. I'm thinking 80s
90s, early 2000s.
>> Michelle (27:14):
Yeah.
>> Loren (27:16):
Um, like, I think. Tell me if you don't disagree.
But I think it'd be fair to say in many ways
evangelicalism was a reaction of, like, the
societal disruption. So I guess my big question
that I'm trying to get at is like, is the whole
project irreparably broken? You know what?
>> Michelle (27:40):
Right.
>> Loren (27:41):
And I hate to ask that because, like, I'm not like
a. I try not to be like a hot taker, evangelical
basher.
>> Michelle (27:50):
I, um, think you're asking a fair question.
Evangelicalism's roots go back way further than 50
years. Modern kind of post World War II
evangelicalism is what I focus on in the book.
>> Loren (28:06):
Right.
>> Michelle (28:07):
But that didn't come out of nothing. It was not ex
nihilo. There was all of. There's a whole bunch of
background and backstory that fed evangelicalism.
Billy Sunday was, you know, and George Whitfield,
and there's all of these voices that helped to
(28:27):
cultivate the soil that then erupted into modern
evangelicalism.
>> Loren (28:33):
Right.
>> Michelle (28:34):
So is the. Is the whole foundation bad? A lot of
it is not. It's not worth saving. I mean, that's
Kind of what I say in the book. But. But there's a
big but. That's not the whole story. Um, what.
Another thing that's kind of saved my faith over
(28:58):
the years. Um, a good counselor, number one. Um,
not going to lie. Um, spiritual director, good,
honest, faithful friends. Um, you know, and some
of those examples of people that really believed
what, What Jesus was saying, um, all of those have
(29:22):
acted as salt and light for me.
>> Loren (29:24):
Right.
>> Michelle (29:25):
The other thing is that I loved church history.
I've always loved church history. And being able
to, um, read church history and have the long view
of what has come before, the corruption, um, the
(29:46):
bad teaching, the heresy, um, the crusades. I
mean, you can go down, down the line. Um, helps me
put some of this in perspective.
>> Loren (30:01):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (30:02):
But, um, it also helps me want to continue to push
people and advocate for a church that will exist
after I'm gone. And after you're gone, which is
the central question of the book. What's worth
keeping? We're in a period of downsizing.
(30:23):
Although, if you listen to some people, um, you
know, evangelicalism is bigger and better. And
there's some statistics, depending on who's doing
the stats and what the lens is, that show that
evangelicalism, even in America, in the west, is.
Is still growing. In some places, it's growing a
(30:44):
lot faster. Um, in the Global south. In other
places, for sure. And it doesn't look as anything
like what we have going. There's no focus on the
family, you know, edifice in Colorado Springs, for
example, you know, in all of these different
places in the world. Um, but that said, being able
(31:08):
to figure out what is of lasting value, it's just
shocking how much. Right. Better said how little
there is. Uh, so the answer is there's not
nothing, but there's not, Uh, a lot of where we've
invested our energy will not. Will not last. And
(31:32):
it shouldn't last.
>> Loren (31:34):
Yeah, yeah. And I'm glad you bring up, like, the
historical perspective, because certainly, like
you said, like I'm thinking even the tradition I'm
a part of, the Christian Church, Disciples of
Christ, really stems out of, like, the broader
kind of like, low E, smaller lowercase evangelical
(31:54):
movement, which I think we. We put like Methodism
historically with that movement and so forth and
so on. Um, but you're right, a lot of the modern
trappings have been, uh, problematic, to say the
least, in those institutions.
So that leads me to another question that you. Or
another theme you talk about in your book. And I'm
(32:16):
reminded of this from a, uh, I Don't know if
you're familiar with the author J. Michael Jordan,
who talks about anxiety and worship and how like
the modern kind of evangelical non denominational
service is kind of like predicated on building
like a mini revival service.
>> Michelle (32:32):
Absolutely, absolutely.
>> Loren (32:34):
So what I thought it was important that you talked
about distinguishing between revival and
revivalism. I've been loosely following the story
of Asbury and.
>> Michelle (32:46):
Mhm.
>> Loren (32:47):
I find it compelling. I'm just gonna be honest, I
find it compelling and I think, God, I hope this
is real and I hope do something in my neck of the
woods too.
>> Michelle (33:00):
Mhm.
>> Loren (33:01):
But also I think like you talk about, there's been
this thing of like, can we manufacture revival?
>> Michelle (33:06):
Yes. And depending on who's doing the definition
of what revival is, uh, you end up with everything
from just a supernatural download of emotional
fireworks and all kinds of signs and war wonders
(33:27):
and people just confessing their sins randomly and
healings happening that's in one stream, in
another stream. It's that um, you end up with kind
of like what John Calvin was hoping to create in
Switzerland. A society that's just so ordered and
(33:51):
orderly and everybody is following the rules,
coloring in the lines with their eight crayons
that um, you know that that's what revival looks
like.
>> Loren (34:03):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (34:03):
And you end up with a lot of people either
manufacturing it. We're having revival services.
To me, um, every Southern Baptist church that's
ever said we're having a week of revival services.
And like, I don't think that works that way. Um,
but people want goosebumps and they want the next
(34:25):
exciting thing. And evangelicalism is notorious
for that in all of its different streams. That's
for every definition, every wonderful kind of
definition of what makes an evangelical. An
evangelical revivalism, um, is kind of the
(34:47):
undercurrent, the dark underbelly of some of that
um, description. So revival in itself is something
that makes more sense in retrospect.
>> Loren (35:04):
Mhm.
>> Michelle (35:04):
It happens. God moves. I believe that that's true.
I still believe that that's true. So I was like
you, I was very interested with when there were
these extended services at Asbury and people were
coming forward and confessing their sins. And I
gave them, and continue to give them great credit
(35:27):
for recognizing that. Of course everyone came
swooping in and rushing in to, you know, try and
get a piece of that, take it home with them or
make it happen or you know, whatever, whatever,
um, the motivation was. And they really tried to
(35:48):
make sure that non famous people and uh, non
celebrities were a part of it. And they, they they
tried to steward what was happening as well as
they could. And it's like they learned some
lessons from all of the bells and whistles and
(36:13):
circuses, Christian circuses that had gone before.
And um, was it a revival? Was it just a hiccup?
Um, time will tell how much stands. And that
humility is something that's often lacking when
(36:34):
revival is talked about.
>> Loren (36:37):
I'm so glad you shared that point about humility.
And as you're talking about revival, I couldn't
help but think about a few years back, I was able
to be. I'm not sure if you've heard of this place.
Caneridge, Kentucky.
>> Michelle (36:49):
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I was baptized in a Christian
church and so, uh, Disciples of Christ. And so I
have some experience in that world. Yeah. And
Cayden Ridge was huge.
>> Loren (37:01):
Yeah, I mean, I was there and it's, it's ah. Yeah.
I mean, it feels like hollow ground. And I wonder,
like, maybe there's something in the water there
in Kentucky. I don't know. Um, but I'm also, you
know, I remember like standing, uh, around that
building and thinking like, boy, you know what,
200 years ago, roughly, it was, if I'm doing my
(37:24):
math right, they were just camping out and stuff
started happening and it was.
There were no bells and whistles, which I'm going
to use as a transition to another thing I want to
talk about because I think that's such an
interesting point you bring up about the bells and
whistles and the next exciting thing. A few
episodes back, I had a conversation with two
(37:46):
authors who wrote about, gosh blank on his name
now, Crystal, uh, cathedral guy.
>> Michelle (37:53):
Oh, Shuler.
>> Loren (37:54):
Shuler, yeah. Yeah. And I think in so many ways he
exemplified. Maybe not exemplified, but he first
really got it started on this bells and whistles
thing of like, you probably heard this term
before, of like the purple cow obsession in
church.
>> Michelle (38:10):
Mhm. And that business of drawing a crowd. And I
use every single one of those words intentionally.
Yeah. That business of drawing a crowd has fueled
every unhealthy kind of thing that's happened in
(38:31):
the church. From the church growth movement, which
Shuler was a big part of, to, um, if you look at,
um, Charisma magazine, who reports on the
charismatic world, anytime that there is a church
(38:51):
service that lasts a little too long, or people,
you know, there's a stirring of emotions. This is
the next hotspot for revival. And it's a drug
that, um, they're pursuing the gifts and not the
giver. And that lack of, that lack of self
(39:16):
awareness that this isn't something we can
manufacture. Um, whether it is in a beautifully
ordered society like um, a Doug Wilson keeps
pushing for. Yeah, I, um, mean we've got it all
over the place. And um, even though we've touched
on a lot of these different names, like from Cam
(39:39):
Ridge to Doug Wilson to Bill Gothard, there's um,
a longing for power and control that is the
opposite of what, ah, a revived life looks like.
>> Loren (39:56):
Mhm. I suppose that's a good question here to end
this section on whether we're talking about Bill
Gothard or Schuller or. Or Dobson. There does seem
to be this tendency within evangelicalism of. I
think you write about a symbiotic relationship
(40:17):
between authoritarianism and authoritarian
evangelicalism. Mhm.
>> Michelle (40:23):
Again, what do you think it goes back to? We're
looking for somebody to tell us where the lines
are and hand us the crayons.
>> Loren (40:36):
Yeah.
>> Michelle (40:37):
Maybe you get 12 crayons, maybe you don't get
eight. But it's that desire for control and power.
Um, it's in each one of us. I'm not going to just
point at this bad leader and that bad leader. Um,
because those of us that have been especially in
(40:59):
high control kinds of toxic environments m. Are.
Are responding to the same, to the same thing. Um,
and the goal should be spiritual health. Um, we
use the term growth. We use it in terms of church,
(41:20):
we use it in terms of spiritual growth. It's not
bad. But um, to become healthy and move towards
wholeness leads us in different places than um,
authoritarianism does. And in church settings
(41:41):
there's no end of people holding microphones and
telling us how to live. And we need good guidance.
We need shepherds. We don't need, um, the kind of
shepherding that I describe in one of the chapters
of the book, which was a function of second wave
care, charismatic renewal, um, that how did it do
(42:03):
a lot of damage. And it also created an
environment, um, that birthed Christian
nationalism.
>> Loren (42:10):
So yeah, yeah. I mean such, such heavy but
important and wow. Important, uh, conversations
and topics that we could spend so much time
talking about. I feel like I need to take a deep
breath here. Just kind of.
>> Michelle (42:32):
Whoo.
>> Loren (42:34):
I really appreciate the conversation. Again, uh,
the book is Downsizing Letting Go of
Evangelicalism's Non Essentials. Let's take a
quick break and let's come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Michelle Van Loon. And
Michelle, really appreciate your conversation,
your frankness, your openness. So you've said
(42:58):
you're geared up for this one so if you're Pope
for a day, what do you want to do with that day?
>> Michelle (43:03):
Okay, so best question. I love this question. I
would be a terrible Pope for so many too many
opinions. But, um, if I had 24 hours, I would, um,
(43:24):
make sure I was out there washing some feet. I
would get rid of the white outfit because, um, I
get stains on myself very easily.
>> Loren (43:35):
Sure.
>> Michelle (43:35):
Um, I would go find people who had been
disenfranchised by the church, and I would ask
them to tell me their stories. And I would not
rush in with prescriptions. I would make sure I
had some Kleenex. Um, and maybe we could use my
(43:56):
white outfit that I was no longer wearing as
Kleenex. Um, and then maybe to end the day, I
would go to a White Sox game because the current
Pope. I'm from Chicago. Um, and, uh, the Pope, the
current Pope was a Sox fan, much to my husband's
(44:19):
delight. I'm a Cubs person, but, um, you know, we
know about long time, long suffering, terrible
teams in Chicago.
>> Loren (44:30):
Like, yeah.
>> Michelle (44:31):
You know, especially the Cubs. But that's how I
would. That's how I would end the day. And I'd
make it free for everybody who could fit in the
stadium and we would just have a good time, eaten
ballpark food together.
>> Loren (44:45):
Love that. Yeah, love that. You know, it's
hilarious. Like, of all the problems with the
Internet, like, somehow that the someone on the
Internet found a picture of the Pope at the World
Series.
>> Michelle (44:56):
Yes. It's so cool.
>> Loren (44:58):
Incredible.
>> Michelle (44:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (44:59):
Epic.
Okay, I'm gonna spin this question that I had for
you. So often we can kind of name names and tell
stories of all these bad m. Troublemakers in
evangelicalism, when I know there's been countless
faithful, quiet servants. Mhm. Whose one or two
(45:23):
you'd.
>> Michelle (45:23):
Hm.
>> Loren (45:23):
Want to lift up. Whether well known or not, they
are not well known.
>> Michelle (45:28):
They will never be well known, probably. Although
I did name one in the book. So I'll start with her
every Friday morning. Just about every Friday
morning, including this morning. Um, because we're
taping on a Friday, I get on the phone with my
prayer partner of 25 years. Her name is Meg
(45:51):
Kozlick. And, um, we tell each other the truth
about our lives and we pray. We used to live in
the same town. And that connection has continued
and continued and continued.
>> Loren (46:09):
Um.
>> Michelle (46:11):
We all need someone with whom we can be ourselves.
And, um, everyone needs that way more than a good
program or amazing, um, worship music or a smoke
machine or, you know, whatever goes on in
(46:33):
institutional Christianity. We need somebody who
sees us and knows us.
>> Loren Richmond (46:48):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
(47:10):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
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