Navigating Change: Archbishop Shane Parker on the Future of the Anglican Church

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren Richmond (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Most Reverend Shane
Parker, Primate of the Anglican Church of Canada.
Archbishop Shane Parker was elected the 15th
Primate of the Anglican Church of Canada in June
of 2025 and installed at St Paul's Cathedral,

(01:05):
London, Ontario. Prior to being elected, he had
served as Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of Ottawa
since 2020 and before that he was Dean of Diocese
of Ottawa and Rector of Christchurch Cathedral for
two decades. Born to Irish parents in Edmonton,
Alberta, he grew up in Western Canada. He worked
as a laborer for several years before embarking on

(01:26):
undergraduate and graduate studies in sociology at
UH Carleton University. After working sociologist,
he studied theology at St. Paul University and was
ordained as a priest in 1987 in the diocese of
Ottawa, later serving as a Diocesan Archdeacon.
Archbishop Parker has an honorary doctorate from

(01:47):
St. Paul University where he served as a part time
professor of Pastoral Ministry and chairs its
Anglican Studies Advisory Committee. A collection
of his pastoral essays was published by Novalis in
a book called called Answering the Big Questions.
He's a recipient of the Interfaith Ottawa Award
for Devoted Service to Promoting Interfaith

(02:07):
Dialogue and Cooperation. Archbishop Parker is
married to Catherine Shadbolt, a lawyer
specializing in family law and mediation. He has
three adult children and three grandchildren. He
is handy, enjoys physical work, and is most
comfortable in natural places. A uh, reminder
before we start today's conversation, please take
a moment to subscribe to the podcast or leave a

(02:30):
review and share Future Christian with a friend.
You can connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. You can send us an
email@laurensonatemediapro.com and find us on
substack@futurechristian podcast. We appreciate
your voice and how we faithfully discern the
future of the church.

>> Martha Tatarnic (02:59):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host for today, Martha Tatarnic, and today I am,
um, very happy to be having a conversation with
Archbishop Shane Parker, who is the Presiding
Bishop or the Primate of the Anglican Church of
Canada. Welcome Archbishop. Thank you for making

(03:21):
time to be with us on Future Christian Today.

>> Shane Parker (03:23):
Thank you, Martha. Good to be here.

So we are going to just start with a couple of
opening questions to help our listeners get to
know you a little bit. These are questions that we
ask all of our guests. And, uh, the first thing
that would be great to know is a little bit about
the faith context in which you were raised.

Okay. So I'm the child of Irish immigrants, uh,
who are very much a part of the Church of Ireland
tradition, which is the Anglican Church in
Ireland. And, um, my father joined the Canadian
military and we moved around a lot. And church was
the one constant as I was growing up. We were
always a member of an Anglican parish from my

(04:06):
earliest memories. So I'm very much a, ah, cradle
Anglican, but not necessarily a cradle Canadian
Anglican because there is that strong influence
from the Church of Ireland.

Okay, all right, that's really interesting. Um,
so, you know, just in broad brushstrokes, how has,
uh, being a Christian changed for you from then
until now? Would there be just a couple of things
that you would note?

Well, I think the major change would be the place
of Christianity within Canadian society, the place
of, uh, the Anglican Church in Canadian society,
uh, the place of confessed religious faith. When I
was a child living on the prairies, we would begin
the day and assembly with Christian hymns. I
remember an inventory being taken of everyone's

(04:58):
church, uh, affiliation. And, uh, apart from very,
very few people, everyone could identify where
they were from. And now, of course, that's just
not, uh, part of most people's, um, DNA, most
people's identity. Certainly not something that's
called upon or recognized as being significant and
important in our society at this time. So that's a

(05:21):
major change.

Yeah, that certainly is a major change. And I
think that will be very much connected to some of
the conversation that we're going to drill into a
little bit more deeply here as we go along. Um,
and certainly as we set the stage for what
actually your role is in the Anglican Church and,
uh, how you got into that role. So if our

(05:42):
listeners are chomping at the bit to find out a
little bit more about who you are and, uh, what
you are, uh, doing and leading, don't worry, we're
going to get to that.
Uh, just one more opening question. Is there, um,
a spiritual practice that you're finding
particularly meaningful now? And you know, again,

(06:03):
just for our listeners, um, this is a brand new
role for you. And so it's a time of pretty big
transition in your life. Personally, I wonder if
there is a faith practice that you're finding kind
of grounding in this time of transition.

Um, so a few short months ago I was the bishop of
the Anakin Diocese of Ottawa, completely connected
to a community in a different parish every week
and part of um, a, ah, church I'd belonged to for
many, many years. And now I am not the bishop of a
diocese. I am living in downtown Toronto for the
time being. And I found that the personal prayer

(06:43):
disciplines are what I've turned to in the absence
of being part of a fixed liturgical community of
any kind. Um, I'm the kind of, um. I wouldn't want
to overstate the notion of praying without
ceasing, but I'm very conscious and aware of uh,
the Creator of Creation being around me, within

(07:05):
me. And um, my personal prayer disciplines, you
know, the morning and evening prayers as well as a
conversation with God throughout the day, have
really become my discipline at this time until I
find a new rhythm of what it means to be in a
sense outside of a liturgical community that
gathers regularly.

Yeah, I think, um, that's really interesting.
There's so many of the guests that we have on this
podcast that um, name the daily office as a really
important spiritual practice and guests from a
variety of different denominations and traditions.
But so often that is part of what gets named is

(07:50):
that sense of being able to be part of a community
even when you're by yourself or, um, not with a
physical gathering.

Something I'm very, very conscious of are the
prayers of the church. I'm aware that I am being
prayed for because of my role and so on. And um,
sometimes it's almost like a physical sense of
being supported by that. And sometimes I just let
myself lean into that in a quiet kind of way, just

(08:19):
knowing when I can't pray, I'm being prayed for.

Yeah, that's really beautiful. Thank you.
Okay, so we are going to just spend a little bit
of time setting a bit of a roadmap of uh, how you
got from A to B into this new role as primate or
Presiding Bishop of the Anglican Church of Canada.
Um, this is for the benefit of our non Anglican

(08:44):
listeners, but as, uh, I was saying to you just
before we pressed record on the podcast, it's also
for lots of our Anglican listeners because, um,
the nitty gritty of how uh, the Anglican Church is
actually structured is not always foremost on
people's minds or, uh, you know, just in, in their

(09:07):
easily accessible, um, knowledge bank. So if you
could just uh, start by telling us a little bit
about when and where you were ordained, um, where
you have served and when you were elected bishop,
what that part of your journey looked like.

So I was ordained, uh, into the Anglican Church as
a priest in 1987 in the diocese of Ottawa. And I
served as a parish priest, uh, for many years,
until 1995, when I became the diocesan archdeacon
that, uh, sort of the assistant to the bishop,

(09:51):
basically, like an executive assistant to the
bishop, you might say. And I served in that role
for four years and then was appointed as the dean
of Christchurch Cathedral in Ottawa. Uh, that's
the cathedral where royal, uh, commemorative
services are held and other things. It's well
known to, uh, many Canadians. And I served in

(10:12):
that, um, job until 2020. So I was just over 20
years as the dean of Christchurch Cathedral in
Ottawa, and I was elected as bishop of the Anakin
Diocese of Ottawa on March 14, 2020, quite
literally the day before the world shut down.

Oh, my gosh, it sure was.

Yeah. And served in that role for almost exactly
five years until General Synod, which is the
national assembly or the primary governing body of
the Anglican Church of Canada, convened in London,
Ontario in June. And at that time I was elected to

(10:54):
serve as primate. It was not something I had
sought in any way. I was not on the ballot. But
there was a request for more names during the
meeting. Uh, the General Synod has the right to
ask for more names if, for whatever reason. And I
found myself very quickly nominated and very

(11:14):
quickly elected to serve in this role.

Okay, so I do want to circle back to that piece in
a moment, but just before we do, because I think
that that discernment piece could be really
interesting for our listeners.
But before we get to that, let's just flesh out a
bit for people, um, what the role of the primate

(11:39):
actually is in the Anglican Church of Canada. I
think there can be a lot of misunderstanding
about, um, what your role, authority you do have,
what authority you don't have. Um, yeah, if you
can just kind of give us a brief job description.

So the word primate comes from the phrase primus
inter pares, which means first among equals. So
the primate is first among equals amongst the
bishops of the Anglican Church of Canada. Uh,
that's why I hold the title Archbishop. Um, as the

(12:17):
primate, there are two spheres of authority. You
might say one sphere relates to the not for profit
organization called the National Office of the
General Synod of the Anglican Church of Canada.
And in that sphere, I basically function as the
chief executive officer. So I am principally
responsible as the CEO for the organization of the

(12:42):
national, uh, Office of the Anglican Church of
Canada. The second sphere is as the senior
metropolitan or senior archbishop of the Anglican
Church of Canada. And that has two dimensions to
it. On the one hand, I am the spiritual, um, head
of the Anglican Church of Canada. I can speak for

(13:05):
the Anglican Church of Canada, and I bring the
Anglican Church of Canada to, to really wherever I
am in a sense. And part of that would be in civic
contexts. Part of it would be ecumenical or
interfaith. But a good part of it would be within
the Anglican Communion, the worldwide Anglican
Church, which is about 85 million people. So as

(13:26):
primate, I'm a member of a, ah, body called the
Primates Meeting, which is one of the instruments
of communion within the Anakin Church. The
primates from across the world gathered together,
bringing their provinces, as they're called. And
uh, we have bonds of affection and relationships

(13:48):
that enable the Anglican Communion to, you know,
to hold together, to be in relationship within
Canada. My authority as an archbishop is quite
limited. A lot of people don't understand that,
um, the Anglican Church of Canada, I believe, is
the only jurisdiction where the primate does not

(14:10):
have direct authority over bishops. That
authority, that direct authority rests with the
four metropolitans or archbishop of the four
internal provinces of the Anglican Church of
Canada. So when the primate shows up for a
consecration of a bishop, uh, the primate does not

(14:31):
take the role of the chief consecrator. The
metropolitan does. Because the metropolitan has
direct authority over those bishops. The primate
would have influence, moral influence. And our
rules are such that if there is a, um, matter of
discipline that is appealed beyond the um,

(14:52):
metropolitans, then the primate presides at the
Supreme Court of the Anglican Church of Canada. So
the primate has what we might call moral
influence, spiritual influence in terms of
authority over bishops and dioceses, um, but does
not have direct, um, supervisory legal authority

(15:14):
over the, um, dioceses of each of the internal
provinces that rests with the metropolitan. So
that's a little bit confusing for people. Um,
people often think that the primate can go and you
know, discipline within a diocese or whatever. In
fact, that's not the case. It would be a little
bit like the justice of the Supreme Court not

(15:36):
being, you know, being prohibited from exercising
their role within, uh, provincial Superior Court,
for example. You know, our rules are what they
are. Um, so the primate, uh, as the senior
metropolitan in Canada is a symbol of unity. The
primate has a direct, uh, role in being a pastor

(15:59):
to the bishops of the Anglican Church of Canada
and uh, exercises that role and other roles to
promote unity, to draw the church together. Uh,
the primate presides at um Meetings of General
Synod and the Council of General Synod and so on.
So it's not quite an honorary role, but it would

(16:23):
be, you know, more like the Governor General than
the Prime Minister, to use a Canadian, uh,
political context.

Okay, I think that's helpful. I think that, um,
you know, it's uh, even for people in my
congregation, um, or in our Anglican congregation
sort of understanding that, um, in terms of like
oversight and authority, our diocesan bishop has a

(16:53):
great deal of, um, local authority, um, whereas
you don't really. Not in the way, I think that
people sometimes assume.

Not the way people would understand it. It's not
the same as a diocesan bishop in that sense. A
diocesan bishop is, uh, she or he would have
direct authority over their priests, can authorize
things, can discipline and so on. Um, it's not as
clear cut that way.

Yeah.
Okay, so let's circle back to this summer when,
uh, you were elected the Primate of the Anglican
Church of Canada. And you know, you talk about
everything happening in kind of quick succession
that you were not on the ballot, um, but then more
names were asked for and then you were on the

(17:44):
ballot and then you were elected. Um, but let's
kind of widen that lens a little bit because, uh,
you have talked in interviews about having uh,
some kind of inkling, um, going into General Synod
that uh, I know that there's kind of a piece

(18:06):
around whether or not you were going to pack your
mitre, um, which uh, was sort of related to that,
um, maybe just uh, some kind of sense that uh,
this could be on the table. Can you just talk a

(18:28):
little bit about the discernment process? Like,
um, what did that look like for you?

Sure. So I think it's important for people to
realize when there's an Episcopal election,
whether it's for a primate or a diocesan bishop,
people are called to be candidates. They're not
called to be a bishop. They're called to consider
whether they would let their name stand. And to do
that would mean that they'd be prepared. If called
by the Church in the power of the Holy Spirit to

(18:55):
serve, they would be ready to stand. So there is a
point of discernment with respect to whether or
not to allow yourself to serve as a candidate, to
allow your name to be on the ballot. And when the
primacy became vacant, uh, there was a process in
place. It's very clear how it works. The

(19:18):
nominations, um, need to be received by the, um,
acting Primate or the General Secretary and it's
the House of Bishops who nominates people. Okay.
So in The Anglican Church, the General Synod has
three the Order of Bishops, the Order of Clergy,
and the Order of Laity. The Order of Bishops

(19:40):
provide a list of names and those of nominees, and
those nominees are then voted on by the Order of
Clergy and Laity. So bishops themselves do not
vote for the Primate. They simply provide the list
of nominations. And so at the April meeting of the
House of Bishops, uh, that is where the list of

(20:04):
nominees would be prepared. Um, so I had been
approached by many people from different parts of
the country, unrelated to one another, um,
starting last fall, essentially when it became
clear this was happening, uh, overtures happened,
looking for expressions of interest. And I had no

(20:27):
sense of peace about letting my name stand. Uh, I
am 67 years old now. I've had a wonderful career,
and I, um, just did not feel within myself called
to let my name stand. Had no spark of interest or

(20:47):
anything like that at all. I recognize that this
particular triennium, the three year period
between general, uh, synods, would be extremely
challenging. Our church faces a lot of major
issues, and I did not feel that at this stage of
my life, uh, that was where I needed to be putting

(21:11):
my energy. So because it's necessary for bishops
in our church to retire at 70, I had been
entertaining a personal plan to perhaps step down
sometime within the next two years to retire and
to live a quiet and peaceable life, as we say. And

(21:31):
so it was a difficult discernment, uh, very
difficult discernment as to whether I would let my
name stand. Sometimes we hear the call of God
through the voices of other people. And there were
a number of voices, people I respect greatly, who
raised, um, with me the prospect of letting my

(21:53):
name stand. And I simply did not have a sense of
peace about it. I could not see myself doing it.
And that, um, stayed with me. I did not feel I
could, um, put my name forward in a way that came

(22:14):
from the depths of my being with absolute
sincerity that I could do the video shoot, I could
write answers to the questions in a way that was
profoundly authentic. That was not there for me at
all. However, the voices of encouragement were. So
in April, at the House of Bishops, the final
discernment happened and I made a decision that I

(22:35):
would not let my name stand. It was not there for
me, and I was at peace with that. And it went
away. It went away. And it was nice not to have
that difficult discernment playing in my head as
it had for months. Yeah. And then as we narrowed
into General Synod, um, I had a foreboding that

(23:00):
there may be requests for more names and that I
may have to revisit or be obliged to revisit the
decision to let my name stand. And I was not in
the mix. Um, had no intention of doing so, had
done some discernment in the form of. There was a

(23:21):
request, those in the House of Bishops who may be
willing to stand if more names are requested.
Maybe you could just fill in the basic form and so
on. I played with that, not terribly seriously,
but did not submit the form, did not give
permission for it to be in the mix until the day
of the election. And that morning I woke with, um,

(23:45):
just a deep sense of spiritual agitation, you
might say. I had this sense that it was going to
come to me to make that decision. And I spoke with
my wife, Catherine, and she said something which
was very. She said, I don't think you can make
that decision. Um, I think you need to let the

(24:08):
Church make the decision. And it just struck me
deeply that, yes, I'm trying to control something,
thinking that it was all about my decision to
stand or not stand. And something shifted where I
realized, uh, I need to let go of something here.
My resistance is consuming me. I did not have

(24:29):
peace of mind. And then during the Eucharist, um,
I found a sense of equanimity. At this point.
There had not been a request for names. It could
have easily been the case. There wasn't. But you
just kind of get a sense sometimes, hey, that
something might be coming your way. And then when
the call for more names came, uh, that was when I

(24:50):
relinquished. It was, um, both painful and a
relief at the same time. You know, I knew what I
would be letting go of. And at that point, I just
had this sense that, you know, this is probably
going to be you, you know, and that was not a nice
sense at all. It was not a nice sense. But once I

(25:12):
relinquished, a, uh, sense of groundedness took
over, you might say. And when the voting happened,
in short, or. And I was elected, I was prepared
for that, you might say, you know, um, it was
powerful. It was a powerful moment. And, um. So
that's the story, Martha, of the. Of the

(25:32):
discernment.

Well, I really appreciate your sharing that,
because although it's a pretty specific story
that, you know, most people are not going to
experience the details of, it's.

Not a specific thing. Yeah, like, there we all
face.

There's just parts of that that I relate to
deeply. And I'm sure people across, um, a whole
bunch of different contexts would relate to,
especially that piece around trying to control
something and having to surrender control. I mean,
I think that is just like at the heart of so many
calls stories.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Thank you. Uh, that's some very personal
sharing and I really appreciate that for our
listeners.

One thing I've learned over the years that might
be helpful for people, sometimes we're called to
stay. You know, we're often so forward oriented
that we, you know, I need to do something next and
I'm called to do something. And in my experience
we're often called to stay. And that's a very hard
discernment.

Yeah.

To stay the course. You know, it's not exciting in
some ways. And uh, anyway, I just offer that as
well.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I think that's a really helpful
guidepost, uh, as well. Thank you.
Okay, so let's talk about the future of the
Anglican Church of Canada. You alluded, uh, to a
variety of challenges that face us as a church.
And again, um, you know, although our listeners

(27:04):
aren't, um, exclusively Anglican by any means, our
listeners come from a variety of traditions. I do
think that there are things that the Anglican
Church is facing that um, that are going to be
relatable and uh, um, recognizable for people
across a variety of traditions. So I think getting

(27:27):
your eyeballs, um, on some of these questions
could be really helpful across the board. So why
don't we just start by talking about the fact that
you have been in ordained ministry for close to
four decades and uh, you have served as both a
priest and a bishop. As you noted, um, in those

(27:51):
different contexts, what have you seen as the
greatest challenges that the church is currently
navigating?

I think a central challenge is that our place in
the broad spectrum of our context. And I want to
acknowledge that context is very important. The
Anglican Church of Canada is in itself extremely,
extremely diverse. It has membership from coast to
coast to coast. It's in intense urban

(28:24):
environments. It's in very, um, uh, wild, remote,
wonderful environments. It's rural and everything
else. So context is important. So when we say
challenges, each context will present its own
challenges. But I believe there are some
underlying things. Foremost would be the falling
away of religious belief as a primary variable in

(28:49):
the lives of Canadians in the life of Canadian
society. Um, I described earlier being a child in
the 60s, most people had some sort of affiliation
that was acknowledged. Uh, those were the days
when if you built a church, you knew that there

(29:09):
was already a population around that church who
was keen to have it. There would be a mortgage and
so on. The post war period was a bit of a boom
period in terms of the building up of a lot of
mainline churches. And the simple truth is that
we're still living on many of the structures and
much of the culture of that post war period. But

(29:30):
everything has changed around us. Everything has
changed around us. And a great challenge is to
first of all see and understand that our place and
how that impacts us has changed profoundly. But we
have not guided change in a way that allows us to

(29:52):
meet the changed context. So in other words, we
have been changed by circumstance. We've not
chosen to guide change very effectively in most
contexts. And so we at one time would have had in
the Anglican Church, and I believe it's true for
other churches. Our own sense of identity, our

(30:15):
sense of self, our sense of importance, um, was a
fairly easy win. Our structures were big and
strong for the most part, and we referenced
ourselves as we did our business. We didn't always
reference society because we didn't need to,
because society was not telling us anything other
than, hey, it's great that you are who you are.

(30:37):
Great, knock yourselves out. You know, there's,
ah, a lot of affirmation, acceptance.

Yeah, thanks for coming in.

Yeah, exactly. All that changed, uh, when I was
appointed as the Dean of Ottawa in 1999. All three
levels of government in the city of Ottawa were
represented at that event. It was covered in the
newspaper. It was major news that the Anglican
Church in the fabled Christchurch Cathedral had a

(31:05):
new dean when I was elected bishop. Uh,
notwithstanding the fact it was during the
pandemic, there was absolutely no secular coverage
of the event. None whatsoever. Not a peep. And I
don't take that personally. But in Ottawa, I was
not someone who had a low profile. I was involved

(31:27):
in lots of things, uh, quite well known in the
community, but it was simply of no interest. It
wasn't newsworthy, I would say. When I was elected
primate, there was no coverage of that event
either. Even in the city of Ottawa, where I'm
from. Okay, that's great. I don't take that
personally, but that is significant in terms of

(31:49):
the place we have. We did because we're good at
ceremonial. The Christchurch Cathedral in the
nation's capital worked with Heritage Canada to
orchestrate some beautiful, uh, commemorative
services for, uh, the late Prince Philip and Queen
Elizabeth ii. Um, valued because we know how to

(32:11):
process, we know how to stage those types of
ceremonies. Um, but it was not because we were
Anglicans and had a cathedral and everyone thought
that's where it should be. It's because we were
there and the Queen is an Anglican. It was the
right thing to do. Glad to do it. Um, our
tradition as Anglicans is such that we could craft

(32:34):
a, uh, state ceremony in a way that allowed
different expressions of faith, or no faith to be
part of the liturgy and so on.
But moving away from that, back to the point
point. Many churches have not accepted or
recognized or studied or analyzed the context that
has changed them. M. Right. And how do we speak in

(32:59):
that context? Uh, how do we evangelize in a
context where we accept religious pluralism and in
many ways celebrate, uh, different faith
traditions? What does that mean? How does that
work? Um, how do we, uh, measure our success, you
might say, in a context where the growth of

(33:22):
churches is almost an oxymoron? Um, so that's a
huge challenge. It's the recalibrating of who we
are as Anglicans, who we are as Christians, who we
are as other people of faith in a context that
does not celebrate our existence or recognize it,

(33:43):
or in some cases even know about it. Right?

Yeah.

So that context changes us. Uh, we see it
expressed in declining attendance and
participation. We see it expressed in not having,
um, a natural presence, uh, in media, uh, and so
on. Right. So the question becomes, how do we live

(34:09):
out our faith in a context that exerts itself us
in ways that diminishes us or causes us to change,
causes us to shrink while we're holding up
structures we've been living in and with for 50,
60 years? Right.

Mhm.

So the challenge is to guide change. How, uh, do
we guide change? What markers do we hold on to
from the past, if any? What is important? How do
we relate to the world around us? Do we want to be
seen as, ah, the object of charity? You know, come

(34:47):
to our garage sale, come to our fundraiser so we
can pay for our costs. Is that how we want to
position ourselves? Uh, or do we want to, um, do
the necessary restructuring and the consolidating
and the drawing together and leveraging our assets
and resources to be basically at, as financially

(35:07):
independent and viable as possible. So what we
present to our context is we don't want anything
from you. We're here to serve. Mhm. We're
compelled to serve because God is love and God
compels us to make everything good for everybody
right and just and true. We need to present that
to the world around us that we actually don't want

(35:29):
anything. We're here to offer. We're here to serve
in partnership in ways that are sensitive and, and
you know, to quote St. Francis, preach the Gospel
always, if necessary, use words. You know, how do
we display by our actions, by our posture, that we
are not the object of charity. We don't want to
get inside your heads and pull you into something

(35:51):
that, you know, we will meet you where you are as
Christ did, and we will serve as Christ did, from
a place of love.

Yeah, truly.
I mean, you've said a lot there and, uh, I guess
there are a couple of threads I want to pull on.
But first of all to say that, you know, I think
you would be hard pressed to find anybody who is
serving in ministry right now, um, kind of in any
capacity in the church who doesn't feel that sense

(36:22):
of, um, weight of the institutional baggage that
we are sort of carrying around and feeling.

The effects of change being exerted on you instead
of guiding it.

Yeah, yeah, truly, truly. Um, and you know, I also
just want to say, like, my co host, Loren and I
are big fans of the work of Nandra Root, and he
would kind of go like one step further in terms of
what that change looks like. It's a very like,
basic spiritual change. Like, how do you

(37:00):
communicate the living God to a, ah, society that
primarily doesn't think on that transcendental
plane that is, you know, formed to think in terms
of, um, you know, the secular reality. So like,
just that basic communication piece of what, like,

(37:21):
who is this God and how do we recognize God's work
in our lives? And why does that matter? I mean,
that basic piece is also just such a barrier in
terms of, um, the church having something
meaningful to speak into the world.

Yeah, uh, very much so. And you know, that's where
we have to check what is important for us to say,
you know, what we think is important and how we're
heard and how language plays out. Uh, I'm not
suggesting for a minute that we sort of water down
the power of the gospel. In fact, I would say

(38:02):
quite differently that I believe our liturgies,
the formality of our liturgies, the different
language of our liturgies is actually an
attractive thing, uh, to make liturgy, you know,
super accessible, to make it feel like every other
type of gathering that happens in society is not
necessarily the way to go. You know, why would you
want more symmetry with the culture around you? Do

(38:24):
you not want to offer something that is, uh, a
respite from that and so on. So having humble
confidence in the best of our traditions is
important. At the same time, uh, the language we
use to express the living God, uh, beyond our
context, we have to understand how that's heard

(38:45):
and to consider whether the words are more
important. The religious terminology is more
important than words which express our deepest
faith. So the language of justice, the language of
love, the language of compassion, of
reconciliation, uh, those are words that mean
things, um, across cultures, across religions. And

(39:07):
of course, they express the nature of God.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Okay. I'd like to just take a bit of a sidestep. I
want to come back to, um, some of those pieces
that you named briefly around what does need to
change and how we do need to think about our
resources, um, and who we are and why that
matters. But again, as somebody who has served in

(39:33):
a variety of levels of leadership in the church,
I'm curious to hear from you, um, how you see the
impact on church leaders of trying to minister,
um, in times of such exceptional change, where in

(39:53):
so many ways, we're trying to pretend as if the
change isn't happening. Um, like we. What are your
observations for church leaders? Again, like both,
uh, ordained and laypeople?

So it's very important to understand what business
are you actually in? Right. Like, what are you
supposed to be doing? And we come, especially in
the post second World War period from the idea
that you do programs, m. You do things. And that's
really important. If people come to your programs

(40:28):
and all that, and I'm not knocking that. That is
important. But if you find that you are trying to
engineer activities are attractive to a bunch of
people, and that's why you exist, you might be
missing something really important. Because
perhaps, um, what matters is community. What

(40:49):
matters is people gathering in a space where
there's a degree of familiarity, both in terms of
the physical space, the people, the liturgy, uh,
the music and so on. It's a place of respite and
to see. To lift up, you know, our worship, our
times of gathering. For most of us, that's two or

(41:10):
three hours on a Sunday morning. That's the
principal engagement people have with their church
communities. You know, uh, the programs that
happen during the week, depending on context, for
sure, are important. But worship and pastoral care
are highly relational things. And they are about
being a, uh, community of faith from birth to

(41:32):
death, which will care for you, which will know
who you are, know your story, and receive you.
These are unique propositions in our society. I
don't know of any other body which gathers people
together on a weekly basis, intergenerationally,
multiculturally, to listen to values that directly

(41:54):
benefit the common good, to sing together, to have
intergenerational relationships, uh, to be able to
care for one another. To be missed, to have
friendships and so on. It's a very powerful
proposition, and it's unique to us. You know,
lots, uh, of people do programs and things, but

(42:17):
the kinds of relationships that build within the
heart of the worshiping community and its pastoral
care of one another and its nurture of one another
are really, really important in a time where
social isolation and loneliness and not belonging
and uncertainty. And I don't mean theological

(42:38):
certainty. I just mean stuff changes. A liturgy
carefully crafted is both familiar and new at the
same time. Uh, the smell of a space you return to
every week, the people, you know, these are things
we can't. We undersell or undervalue at our peril.
We can't become more zappy and attractive. And,

(43:00):
you know, that's, uh, that, yeah, good
communications is good. You know, working on your
visual brand is good, but the brand is not what we
looked like. It's who we are. And who we are as
Christian communities are places where people
gather from birth to death, intergenerationally,
form bonds of friendship, affection, pastoral

(43:21):
care, are nurtured in faith, are fed, and it's a
place of respite and inspiration and challenge.
So, you know, that's. It's hard to accept that
that's all you got to do. You know that as a
pastor, um, building relationships with your
people is really, really important, and enabling

(43:42):
relationships is really important. I used to teach
pastoral ministry and sociology, and I used to say
that a lot of clergy leaders, especially, have
trouble with visiting people. Well, you know, why
would I do that? But I say, well, it's a survey of
your parish. You know, you're basically doing data

(44:02):
collection, which will tell you everything you
need to know about your parish. You will it better
if you simply get to know people and, you know,
how you guide that community will be changed by
your knowledge of all the parts. In a sense, you
know, these sound very. Almost colloquial,

(44:22):
parochial, bucolic, but they're the important
tools of church leadership. Um, you know,
presiding well at worship, taking care to make
sure worship is not so much trendy and always
changing. But what gives that blend of
predictability, of challenge, of routine, the
liturgical year that folds over and people mark
time. So works of justice, advocacy, uh, um, other

(44:48):
types of programming are important. But if that's
where you're seeking to hope that you will grow or
you might be missing the mark, you know, at the
heart, we are a gathered community of baptized
individuals who gather around the table, care for
one another as God would care for us, and then we

(45:08):
Leave that to try to make the world look that way.
Um, much of that will not happen by corporate
programs. Much of that will happen by the baptized
going back to their contexts and making decisions
that reflect, uh, the love and grace and justice
of Christ.

Yeah, I appreciate, uh, kind of those notes about,
um, what basket to put your eggs into. Um, I think
that that is helpful.
I guess I am, um, interested though. I mean, you
as a bishop, you are kind of a pastor to the
pastors. And you said, like, as primate, you have

(45:47):
that pastoral role to the bishops. Like, how do
you. Like, we talk to so many church leaders who
kind, um, of struggle with, with the weight of
expectations, with the task list that seems, uh,
never ending. Um, with the kind of savior complex

(46:14):
that gets layered onto people with the anxiety of
the system. When you're trying to lead in an
anxious system, what are just sort of the pieces
of encouragement that you would offer to, uh,
leaders who are struggling with those things?

For sure, I think go gently. First of all, you
know that the church belongs to God, not you, and
that all shall be well in some way at some time.
And, um, you know, apart from the normal checking
in, like, you know, do you have a savior complex?
Do you feel you're indispensable? Do you need to
show up for everything, like, just to, you know,
check in on that? Um, pastors need, uh, to

(46:53):
understand that there is discretion over your time
in most cases. And you don't need to tell people
why you can't come to a meeting, but make sure you
have time off. Uh, I found, as a bishop, uh, when
I spoke with clergy, if they couldn't give me a
nice story about what they did in their time off,
I would say, well, you know, you can tell me what

(47:14):
your time on looks like, but you don't actually
have a narrative around your most personal life,
like, what's that all about? You know, make sure
you've got a lovely story and it's okay, it's
okay, you know, and you don't need to explain that
to anyone. So just personal self care is very,
very important. And it's not selfish to take care
of yourself. That's important. But I think it is

(47:34):
necessary to look at it, uh, at a systemic level
that if the expectations are expectations based on
an idea of church and a time that simply is no
more, they need to be checked. You know, again,
what is the environment we're living in right now?
There is also the case that, um, we perhaps need

(47:58):
to address structures, you know, ah, do we need
all these Parishes, all these churches that are
struggling, or do we need to somehow consolidate
or create the conditions for them to thrive? Um, I
have never closed a church as bishop, but I have

(48:19):
appealed to the wisdom and good sense of the
people of God to say, if you think you're at the
point where a major, like, talk to me about it,
and church is closed, people amalgamated because,
uh, the laity of the church, in my experience, are
quite wise. They know when the jig is up and you
don't go in and close a church. But you need to

(48:39):
give permission for people to look at their
context and their resources. I like to use the
word thrive to describe the aspirations, uh, or
the ambitions of our church. We need to be a
church that can thrive. I do not like the word
grow because it's not a realistic word. It's also

(49:01):
a very blunt marker. Right. Thriving may lead to
growth. It may lead to sustainability. It may lead
I don't know where. So what conditions allow you
to thrive? Right. Um, yes. There's a matter of
hard resources. You need a building, you need

(49:22):
money to operate and to pay staff and so on. And
good programs of stewardship will help with that.
But mostly you need a community of love. A
community where people want to be there, where
they know and love their pastor. They take care of
one another, they journey together through time as
a social community as much as a community of

(49:44):
faith. Um, in my experience, and you see this as a
bishop, where you're very privileged to go from
community to community to community, the
healthiest are the places where there are obvious
friendships happening. Happening.

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

People come into the room and they feel the
authentic friendships. Uh, you know, we're glad
you're here and join in, and it doesn't matter who
you are. You know, again, we don't place high
value on that. But that's the one thing we propose
in a time where that does not happen in many,
many, many contexts and places. Right. Uh,

(50:23):
community of life, intergenerational, you know,
cared for, known, accepted, heard, understood, and
gathers weekly. You know, uh, that ritual of
simply being a human community together in a
familiar place, um, is a very important part of
being a human being. You know, it's your tribe.

Yeah, it truly is. Yeah.
So I think you've offered, like, a number of
pieces of what a thriving church could look like
about places, um, where change is necessary, some
notes about what, um, what that change could be
oriented toward. What do you see the national
church body's role being in helping the church

(51:07):
navigate this Season of change.

So I will speak specifically to the Anglican
Church of Canada. Other people. So, you know, the
national church organization, um, the national
church is the bishops, parishes, dioceses, clergy,
people. Right? Like that's the national church.
But as an organization, the national church needs

(51:31):
to serve and support the interests of where
ministry actually happens, which is in the
dioceses and parishes and with the clergy and
people and bishops of our church. So like the
phenomenon faced by most parish churches, um, our
national church has roots in an era when it was

(51:54):
big and strong and seen to be important both
within the church and outside the church. And
there was a lot of heavy duty program that
happened and still happens in some national
churches. And that is confusing in some ways

(52:14):
because the locus of ministry is not a national
body. It would be in the gathered communities
called parishes, and maybe at some level in
dioceses. But is the Anglican Church doing
ministry when its national church does it, or is
the Anglican Church doing ministry when any one
part of it's doing it in its own context? Right.

(52:37):
So I think the reset, which has been called for
unambiguously by the General Synod of the Anglican
Church of Canada is to consider what is the key
and essential role of the national office, and
that's to convene, to coordinate, coordinate and
communicate and to provide operational support to
the dioceses that comprise the Anglican Church of

(52:59):
Canada. And part of the convening and coordinating
and communicating function, uh, is not so much to
do programs, but to locate and identify
individuals who have expertise, who might be
doing, uh, work around migrant workers, for
example, or human trafficking or youth ministry,

(53:20):
and to convene those players and support them as
they become mutually supportive and share
resources. So it's a very different model. You
know, program is not happening in the national
office. The talent, the ambition, the ministries,
the skill is convened and coordinated so that

(53:41):
there can be ministry happening in the Anglican
Church of Canada in the context where it most
matters. You know, so the national office in many
ways is oriented to serve the constituent parts of
the church, not to be a body that is kind of doing
its own thing. Right. Or as a parallel thing. Now,

(54:05):
in our tradition, the ministry of the primate,
which is not about the person, it's about the
connecting, uh, nationally, continentally,
internationally. That's very, very important. You
know, we are in communion, uh, with one another,
with the Anglican commun, have a full communion
relationship, there's ecumenical relationships. So

(54:27):
supporting those relationships and building them
is also an important national function. The
primate of Canada can bring the Anglican Church to
any number of conversations. And that's important.
Um, so to make a long story short, I think the
challenge, uh, which we will undertake, uh, is to,

(54:49):
to create a national office which is seen to be
directly valuable and supportive to the dioceses,
the bishops, the clergy and people and parishes of
the Anakin Church of Canada. When you think of the
General Synod or Church House. Right. I know what
that does and it supports me in my ministry or

(55:10):
it's doing something that only it can uniquely do.
Right, right. So it's a different structure, it
needs to cost less, it needs to be self funding
wherever possible and it needs to say to the
dioceses, uh, we actually need less money from you
because we have focused on things that serve you

(55:33):
and wherever possible we've leveraged the assets
held by our church to fund it. Right. So it's
just. And that's true of a lot of Synod offices as
well.

Well, you know, I was just going to say actually
like, do you see the translating to the diocesan
level as well? Because I think that uh, it has
been so easy to see the individual parishes as
supporting the broader structures of the Anglican
Church. And in many ways that kind of like suits
our Anglican temperament because we like all of

(56:07):
the bishops and the, you know, pomp and
circumstance and all of those things. But um, but
yeah, to really be.

Clear about, you know, I take very seriously the
fact that I have a significant title and place.
But in my experience, and I learned this when I
became um, a dean, uh, Adrian, uh, Clarkson had
just been appointed Governor General and she's an
Anglican, as you know. And um, she uh, helped me

(56:36):
understand that uh, if you have a job and a title,
you use it to do good things, things. Don't
apologize for it, you know. So I'm very aware I
would do nothing to diminish the office of
primate. But it's not about aggrandizing me or you
know, um, it doesn't have value in its own right.

(56:57):
It has value because of the good things it can do
in terms of being a symbol of unity, a, ah,
gathering function, speaking for the church on
important issues.

And so, yeah, that's really well said. Thank you.
Okay, I have one more question before we take um,
a quick break. You noted that you're 67 years old,
that uh, you need to retire at the age of 70. So
you have sort of a three year mandate that's
pretty clear cut. What for you would signify to

(57:33):
you at the end of those three years that the
church is on the right pathway of change?

Well, I think the pathways is the operational word
there. We did do a Lot of consultation to create a
document called Creating Pathways. There are six
distinct pathways, uh, which are clear. They need
to be operationalized, they need to be brought
into effect. I would hope that at the end of three
years we can look back and say we made significant

(58:04):
progress on those three pathways and they will
lead to deep change. There's no question about it.
Uh, so that would be important. Um, as I consider
our church at this time, there are sort of three
areas, um, three pillars that we kind of stand on
right now. One would be the pathways, the other

(58:26):
would be our property, the property situation we
face. And the third would be the staff and
programming and operations of Church House. And I
don't mean the building, I mean the staff of the
central office and the various activities and
operations that happen here. Each of those need to
be addressed in their own right. There's some

(58:48):
significant overlap between those three pillars,
but I believe there can be measurable results in
each of them which would see us at the end of this
trainium, um, looking and feeling quite different
and having a different understanding of how we
resource our national office and how our national
office is very much oriented to serve the

(59:10):
interests of the constituent parts of the Anglican
Church of Canada while lifting up those roles that
can only uniquely be done by the primate, uh, or
by the, uh, central office.

Okay, well, that sounds necessary and challenging
and, uh, exciting.

Exciting. It's good. It's good work. It's good
work. Work that has to be done. Echoing back to
the first part of our conversation, we need to
understand our context and we need to guide
change. Change. And that means making decisions.
And if we don't guide change, we will be changed.
And that's not very nice.

Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely the case, isn't it?
Okay, well, let's take a quick, uh, break and
we'll, uh, come back for some closing questions.
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
with Archbishop Shane Parker and we are going to

(01:00:10):
wrap up with some closing questions. So,
Archbishop, if you were Pope for a day, what
would, uh, be the content of those 24 hours? And
again, you can take these questions as seriously
or not as you want.

>> Shane Parker (01:00:27):
Well, I have tremendous respect for the Roman
Catholic tradition. Uh, I did my Anglican studies
at a Pontifical institute in Ottawa, St. Paul
University, and a tremendous respect. Uh, so I
offer these with, with a gentle edge. Uh, I would
rapidly, um, facilitate the ordination of women.

(01:00:50):
Uh, it's quite clear that, uh, from an Anglican
perspective at least, and I think even from a
strict biblical perspective that, uh, women were
the first Witnesses to the resurrection, the first
apostles to the apostles, and that. That ministry
is a tremendous value. Value to the Church. So
that's something that I would do as well. Um,

(01:01:14):
otherwise, I would probably echo some of the
comments I made earlier. You know, I think, uh,
our church needs to, um, uh, focus on ensuring
that is a place of safety for everyone. A, uh,
place of love, a place of intergenerational, uh,
relationships and so on. And I think I would use

(01:01:34):
the influence I would have as Pope, which is
significant because the Pope gets a lot of press
to. To speak to issues of justice, uh,
environmental justice, social justice, um, and,
uh, as Pope Leo does, to influence wherever
possible, uh, creating an environment where the

(01:01:55):
dignity of every human being is respected and
people can live in safety and prosperity and
thrive.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:02:02):
Well, that sounds like a very busy day for you,
but those sound like really good, uh, good things
to aim for. Thank you.
Uh, was there a theological or historical
Christian figure who you would want to meet, bring
back to life, have lunch with? Who would that be?

I've never actually considered that question. I
love the notion of the communion of the saints and
being surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses.
And, uh, I have a very close friendship with
Albert Dumont, who is Algonquin's spiritual
teacher. And I always say, uh, to him, who found
his way back into his traditional spirituality

(01:02:45):
from a very rough, rough road, um, that his
ancestors called him home, you know, And I am very
conscious of the heritage, uh, that I come from
as, um, Celtic Christianity is sometimes used.
And, um, I can't think of an individual. I'm just

(01:03:06):
conscious of my forebears in faith and those who,
um. Especially bishops. And I'm thinking of
Cuthbert, for example. Worker bishops. They had
things to do, you know, the trappings weren't
there. My favorite mode of dress, as primate, as
people will see, will be to wear a chasuble and to

(01:03:27):
carry a small primacial staff instead of a big
cross. Uh, I'm on the move. Ready to go.

Okay. Okay. That's good. I like that. Ready to
work, ready to move. What will history remember
from our current, current time and place?

I believe history will remember that the Church,
even as it tried to celebrate its, um, place in
society, uh, faced a major existential crisis
which allowed it to find its core and to celebrate

(01:04:06):
its life with confident humility and find its way.
Way, uh, in a manner that, um, touches the lives
of many people and influences the course of
history.

Well, that's a very hopeful answer. That's great.
And I guess connected to that.
What is your Hope for the future of Christianity,
or is that sort of the same answer?

Well, you know, I think we're very clear from the
prologue to John's Gospel that Christianity was
and is already in the future because Christ is
there. I. I think Christianity is, you know, I can
speak as a sociologist that, you know, people
create religious structures, and those religious
structures act to create people. Right. So when I

(01:04:52):
think of Christianity, I do think of Jesus. I do
think of the core, uh, teaching of Jesus. I think
of the kindness and compassion and courage and
strength and justice and reconciliation, those
deep qualities of God which Christ revealed to us.
And I hope whatever the future of Christianity is,
is that it embodies those values of Christ and

(01:05:15):
makes them known in the world, regardless of the
structures and decorations, uh, that might
surround it in any one culture, in any one point
in time. Yeah.

Thank you. Well said. Uh, is there somewhere that
people can find out more about you?

If you go to the Anakin Church of Canada's
website, you'll probably, uh, find a little bit
more. Um, uh, I haven't done it yet, but I'm quite
sure if you simply Google me these days, there's
been enough going on, uh, lifted up, that, uh, you
can see that I am on Facebook. Shane Parker on
Facebook. And you can follow me, but, uh, I think

(01:05:53):
the Anglican Church of Canada's website is
probably the best place to go to find a bit more
biographical information. I do write regularly
and, um, monthly reflections. I've been doing that
for many years. So if you want to know more about
my spirituality, I think, uh, as much as my
ecclesiology, read some of the things that are
published in the Anglican Journal and other

(01:06:14):
places.

Okay, thank you very much. Well, we always end
with a word of peace, so, um, thank you so much
for your time, Archbishop Parker. And may the
peace of Christ be with you.

Thank you very much, Martha, and also with you.

>> Loren (01:06:38):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do

(01:07:00):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. Review. It really helps us get this out to
more people. Thanks. And go in peace.

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Navigating Change: Archbishop Shane Parker on the Future of the Anglican Church

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang