Pastoral Health Roundtable: Kinsie Tate & Brian Davis on helping church leaders survive & thrive

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the
21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire and equip you
with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
Today is our 200th
episode. Congratulations to Loren
on this podcasting milestone and the vision and
faithful work it has taken to get here.
In this celebratory episode, Loren
Richmond Jr. Is facilitating
a round table discussion on clergy

(01:06):
Wellness with Brian Davis, Kinsie
Tate and me, Martha Tatarnic.
Brian has been leading worship in the Denver
metro area for the last 25 years
and has built relationships with dozens of churches
all over the city. Authenticity and
empathy have been hallmarks of Brian's
leadership and his intention is to use these

(01:28):
attributes to coach other worship leaders and
inspire greater creativity and deeper
spiritual practice in the local church.
Brian has three daughters and he and his wife
Jess live in Lakewood,
Colorado. He also serves part time as
the Worship Arts Director at New Denver
Church. Kinsie is the founder

(01:50):
and Executive Director of Restore
Clergy, an organization that exists to build
resiliency in clergy so that they may have
faithful and sustainable ministries.
She is a licensed professional clinical
counselor with over 15 years experience.
She was ordained in 2007
and maintains endorsement with the Christian Church

(02:13):
Disciples of Christ in the Pacific
Southwest Region. She maintains a private
therapy practice in Newport Beach,
California where she lives with her spouse Chris,
a United Methodist minister serving a
local congregation, their three school
aged children, and their therapy dog
Daisy. I, Martha, am

(02:35):
occasional host on this podcast.
I'm a published author and an Anglican
priest in a bustling urban church, St. George's
in the Niagara region of Ontario.
A reminder before we start today's special
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the
podcast, leave a review and share Future

(02:55):
Christian with a friend. Connect with us
on Instagram or other social media
platforms. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of

(03:16):
the church.

>> Loren (03:26):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond
Jr. And today I'm excited to be joined
by my co host Martha Tutarnick.
Hello.

Hi. Great to Be here for the roundtable.

>> Loren (03:39):
Yeah. We have a special roundtable episode. We're welcoming
with us today Kinsie Tate.
Kinsie

>> Kinsie Tate (03:46):
Hello.

>> Loren (03:46):
Hello. And then Brian Davis. Hello
Brian.

>> Brian Davis (03:50):
Hello Loren. Hello Kinsie and Martha.

>> Loren (03:53):
So this will hopefully be a good
fun but also very engaging and
uh, profitable conversation around
pastoral health. Kinsie and Brian both
work with pastors and church leaders in various
contexts. And of course Martha will also
be, uh, is a leader and works with pastors in

(04:14):
her own right. So she'll be joining the
roundtable as part of the panelists
here too. So let's do this. Let's take just a moment
to introduce yourselves for our listeners, beginning with
Martha, kind of who you are, what context you work in
and then follow up with the question what
pastoral health means to you in your
role.

Okay, well, um, regular listeners
of Future Christian will know me as
uh, sometime host of Future
Christian. And it's fun to be able to do an
episode together with Loren today.
Um, I'm also in full time ministry
leading ah, um, an

(04:55):
Anglican congregation in um,
a very downtown urban setting.
And I've been ordained in the Anglican Church for
20 years. So it's uh, I've got
quite a repertoire of experience
in church ministry.
I also wear a hat as a

(05:16):
writer. Um, so I'm sort of
often considering these
questions of clergy health
and uh, church
health, congregational health from a
variety of lenses. And I think
it's fair to say that this is a topic that just
keeps coming up as a thread in our

(05:38):
conversations on Future Christian.
So if I were going to
define pastoral health, I,
I think what I would land on
is just to say that
um, there needs to be
a sense for people in

(05:58):
ministry that they're doing what they're
called to do now. Like I,
there's a lot of aspects
to leading a congregation
there. There's a lot of different hats
that you wear, a lot of different
components of the role. In some ways that can be what

(06:19):
makes the job exciting and life giving
is that you don't do the same thing every day.
Um, and that there is like a lot of grunt
work that you need to do in ministry. But
at the end of the day I feel like I'm healthy in
ministry. If I can see a relationship
between most of the components of how
I'm spending the day and what

(06:41):
I feel I'm called to as a
Christian and particularly a
Christian in leadership. And to me that really boils
down to like, am I building
community and am uh, I
part of how people are
attending to the presence of God. You know,

(07:01):
like, those are kind of the two pieces that I
think Jesus really clearly calls us to. And so
I want to be healthy. I want
to feel like most of what I'm doing
is connecting to that.
Uh, job description?

>> Loren (07:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Martha Kinsie uh, introduce
yourself and answer the same question.

Okay. Hi, I'm, um, Kinsie Tate. I am
an ordained Disciples of Christ clergy.
Um, but I have been practicing as a licensed
professional clinical counselor for, I don't
know, like, 15 years, something like that. Long time.
Um, and so that is kind of the
main focus that I come at this question

(07:45):
from. And I'm also the executive director of a
nonprofit called Restore Clergy, whose mission is to
build resilience in clergy so they can have faithful and
sustainable ministries. And so I think about
pastoral health as how do we
make it sustainable? I, um, think
there's a lot of burnout, and there's a lot of

(08:05):
research that shows that people burn out a lot of times within their
first five years, and then they're finding,
um, other vocations. And
so what I'm really curious about is,
why is that happening? Um, and I think
there's some good research around that. And so that's why I
developed a program to try to help
clergy understand, um, what's going on

(08:28):
in me that's maybe making this harder. Um, and
so I think about pastoral health really from a personal
perspective. Um, and I do
recognize that it is not just an
individual problem. It is
definitely a systemic issue.
Um, but my specific

(08:48):
focus is on how can I help the
individuals build community, Because I think
there's a lot of loneliness and isolation, um, in
being clergy, um, but also to
really understand what am I bringing into the
situation that may be making it harder than it needs to
be. So that's kind of my focus.
Uh, I don't have the clout or

(09:10):
the, um, you know, status
or. I don't know, like,
um, I'm not in those
circles where we're talking about the systemic issue
of the church. And so
the focus that I bring is really helping
individuals focus on their own personal
health and how that is impacting their role as

(09:30):
clergy.

>> Loren (09:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, Brian, go
answer. Uh, the same.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. So I'm Brian Davis.
I, uh, lead a nonprofit, uh,
organization called, uh, Green Room Leaders.
Um, and our primary goal is to help worship
leaders, specifically, uh, get off the
ministry treadmill of running from Sunday to
Sunday. Um, and so also,

(09:56):
yeah, care very deeply about their
health. Um, I'm also part, uh,
Time, uh, worship arts director at a
small, uh, small church
kind uh, of southeast of downtown
Denver. Um, and so get
to try to practice what I preach, I guess.

>> Loren (10:15):
Right.

Um, and uh, yeah,
so I guess for me, I love
all your answers, um, and
totally, wholeheartedly agree. Uh, for me
personally, uh, pastoral health, uh, is
when your identity is firmly rooted
in who you are in Christ as opposed to what
you do. Um, and uh, I

(10:38):
feel like that has become just so, uh,
just insidious, uh, I mean, in
every part of our culture, but seeing it happen in ministry
as well, um, and I've seen it happen in my life as
well, where we just don't know who we are.
Um, if we're not fulfilling our ministry
role. Like, if I'm not up on stage leading worship,

(10:58):
who am I? Um, and that was a question that I
wrestled with, uh, many years ago,
um, when I was given, uh, some medical
leave for ah, ah, a, ah,
stroke that I had had. Um, and
uh, it freaked me out. I was like, I don't. I don't
know what I'm supposed to do with myself if I'm not
standing on stage every Sunday singing songs for

(11:21):
people, you know. Um, and so
that. That has been my focus,
especially the last five, six years, is helping
worship leaders realize, like, it starts. It
starts way before you step on a stage.
Um, it starts with understanding who.
Who Christ sees you as in here.
Um, and uh. Yeah. So

(11:43):
there you go.

>> Loren (11:44):
Brian. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, I'm so looking forward
to this conversation. I mean, I know all you people.
I've obviously, Martha, I've never.
We're hopefully going to do this this summer. Like, this is. This is my
goal. Martha and I are. I'm going to travel to
Martha's neck of the woods. Uh, and
um, my wife is allowing it as
an international trip.

So, so kind of her.

>> Loren (12:10):
I know she's like, okay, I'll come along. Uh, can
do that. Uh, so that's our goal. And Martha and I will get a
chance to connect in person.

But yeah, 3D over some food
and some, um.

>> Loren (12:21):
Yeah, Kenzie and I obviously have had a chance to connect in
person. And Brian, uh, we've had. Brian's been on
the pod. I'll link this. Kenzie and Brian have been on the pod,
so I'll link their individual episodes too.
So I want to do this sort of where I
continue and ask you all some individual questions and then we'll
move to some group questions. But really what kind of got

(12:41):
me on this was Kinsie And I did our
interview last January, I think it was.
And then once we stopped recording, I kind of just
hit Kinsie with these questions, like, why do pastors
do this? And just gave her some silly questions.
So I sort of want to continue that down that vein. And,
Kinsie you can choose to kind of respond how you
want to. Brian, I have some doozies for

(13:04):
you, too,
but Kinsie first, like, I think I said
this to you then, but I'm going to repeat this
question whenever I feel like I go hang out with
mainline pastors
and we'll bang on the evangelical
leaders here in a second. But whenever I hang out with mainline
pastors, it seems like mainline pastors are

(13:26):
always, like, when we're getting into Uber or something, we'll always be like,
oh, we're pastors. But m. We're cool because we cuss
and we drink and whatever.
And I'm just like, what is that about? Like, what is that
about, Kinsey?

So I really think it's about,
um, getting away
from that perfect pastor
rigidity, um, that can feel
really stifling of, like, you know, you show up
on Sunday and you're expected to be this
model of Christianity and this

(14:00):
perfect, um, like, Christ, like, figure. And even
though rationally we know that that's not real, and
people react to us more when we are
vulnerable and, like, show all of our
faults. I think there's still
this carryover of what
it is to be clergy. I mean, you know, we've got ethical
standards and that kind of stuff. And so it.

(14:22):
I think it's. When clergy get together,
it's almost like, let's just
completely blow out all that out of
the water and just, you know, like, I don't
know, almost go to the exact opposite,
um, just to prove that we're not,
um, like, I don't know,

(14:42):
square or whatever. I can't think of a more, like, up
to date word from the 1950s.
But that's, I think, where that, like, Persona
comes from of, like, you know, like, you have to be this good
church pastor. And when you don't have your church pastor hat on,
it's almost like, let me show everyone how cool I
am by, like, boozing it up and cussing.

(15:03):
It's like, I mean, is that really who you want to be? Or does
it feel like you have to swing the
pendulum all the way to the other side,
um, to just show that you're
not whatever
this Persona is?
And so that's why I think most people,

(15:23):
most clergy, after they have a uh, like
event like that, they don't really feel good about it. It's almost
like this, the shadow side of ourselves that we let out
of the box every once in a while. It's like, well, let's put that back in real
quick and hide it away.
Um, so, yeah, I think a lot of times it's.
People don't feel good after doing that. I mean, usually physically,

(15:43):
you really don't feel good. And so there's just this
whole thing that goes along with it.

>> Loren (15:48):
Yeah, the irony is like, those,
often those kind of clergy get togethers are meant to be like,
refilling. And so often like folks come
away like exhausted more. And I've, I've just
learned, like, I gotta say, like, hey, 8:00,
8:30, you know, um, whatever, like, that's my
bedtime. I mean, it's not really, but I need some time to shut

(16:09):
it down. Brian, you can respond to that same
question if you want to, but I also kind of want to ask you,
like, this is again, stereotypical, but I feel
like what I've seen, I don't know if this is a trend, that's still
a thing. But the whole like, smoking hot wife
thing, uh, it's like pastors gotta get up
and be like, oh, I got this smoking hot wife. And

(16:29):
what is this kind of like
similarly performative thing about whether
it's being like, oh, I'm so like, my wife and I have a perfect
relationship or like, you know, I'm
super on fire for God. And I'm certainly
caricaturing evangelicalism. But do you want to
speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, man, I think it comes
from, I hope it comes
from kind of a good place of like, you know, hey,
I'm, I'm saying this because I, I love
my wife and I, uh, you know, I believe in her and I, you
know, um, you know, in, in some
evangelical circles, it's like, yeah, I believe in her, but I'm not going to let
her, you know, actually do anything important.

(17:10):
Um, but, but it does, it
comes across as super kind of creepy
and uh, and almost kind of gross.
Like, I don't want to hear you talk about your wife like that from the
stage. Like, I don't want to hear you talk about your wife like that
anywhere. But, um, uh, but yeah, I
just, it, I don't know, I think it is
that, that urge to try to come across

(17:31):
as like, relatable to
the everyday person, you know, like,
like, you see, look, look at me. I, you know,
just because I'm on this stage, and I'm wearing a, you know, $500
watch, and I, you know, $600 tennis
shoes. I'm still. I'm still just like you. Like, look at my
wife. She's smoking hot. Aren't I cool? Because I called her smoking

(17:52):
hot. You know, and so I think there is this. This urge
and this desire to be really,
uh. I'm. See, I'm just like you. I talk just
like you. Sometimes I drink just like you.
Um, you know, uh, I
see how similar we are. Um,
but often the reality is, like, so

(18:13):
far from that, like, you're. You're almost putting on this
show. And so maybe they do that in public to show,
like, you know, I'm not putting on this show. I actually am
this way. Um, sometimes that can
be a clue that maybe things actually behind the scenes are
way, way worse. You know,
that's the. That's sort of just this little bit that

(18:33):
you let out is actually a clue to something deeper
and way more awful. Um,
so, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question,
but I think it's just this desire to,
again, sort of strip away that. Sort of
pull away that curtain of like, no, m. I'm
no different than you are. Um,
but I think there's still this reality that,

(18:56):
yeah, you are still pretty different than,
you know, than most people you come across
on the street.

>> Loren (19:03):
Yeah, Kenzie.

Yeah, I just want to piggyback on that. And also, what
you were asking me about, I think some of that, too,
is how lonely
clergy are, because it's this whole thing of, like, you are set
apart and you are put up. I mean, Brian, you called it
a stage. Uh, it's like you're up there and you're
performing. And I think, Loren, to your

(19:24):
point about clergy gatherings is there's still. It's really
hard to turn off that switch of, like,
I still have to perform. And so maybe there is liquid courage.
You know, like, if we're drinking, it can kind of
settle the nerves. But. But I think that's
where problems come into play. Because if
that's the only way that I can relax, then, you know,
obviously, that can set you down a path of addiction

(19:47):
and that kind of stuff. Um, but,
yeah, you know, I heard the whole thing of clergy
usually, um, give sermons on things that they need to
hear themselves. And so I'm wondering if,
you know, that's the same in the evangelical tradition of,
you know, what they're talking about from the pulpit. Might
give you, um, a hint into

(20:08):
maybe some of the things they're struggling with or the things they're trying to
mask and hide from the congregation or
maybe even from themselves.

Yeah, I totally. It's funny
that you bring that up. I was just talking about this the other day,
um, when. Getting our way
back Machine, when everything happened at New Life with Ted
Haggard. Um, my. My older brother
was actually attending. He sang in the choir, like, very
involved at New Life. Um, and. And my family

(20:35):
had some connection there, too. We would attend every once in a
while. But when all that happens, you
know, and go even further back,
like, uh, Ted Haggard was very, you know,
anti lgbtq, like, and made
no bones about it. Like, he would preach that from
the platform. Like, and, you
know, my dad said, like, you know,

(20:57):
I'm. I'm. When all of the, you know, when all of
the defecation hit the rotary oscillator,
um, he, uh. My dad was like, yeah,
I'm not surprised at all. Um, because
often, like, what people rail against the
most from the platform when they're preaching
is usually the thing that they struggle with the most.
Um, and I was like, oh, dad, you're

(21:20):
real smart. Um, and then he cried because that was the first time I
ever said that to him. And it was, you know, it was a really touching
father son moment. Um, but, yeah, I just. I.
I think that's absolutely true. That. That a lot of those
things that we, um, that we try
to espouse from the stage or the things that we teach
and preach are often the things. Yeah. That I need to work on

(21:40):
the most in myself.

>> Loren (21:42):
Yeah. So let Martha jump in here. And
Martha, feel free to respond to what's happened so
far. But I also want to ask you, from the perspective
of where this kind of performative nature, I
think happens a lot is, like, the
clergy group, like, the clergy
lunch. Like, I'm thinking, like, the behind the scenes.
That statement that Brian made. I think it was Brian. So

(22:05):
respond to any of this. Um, I'm thinking again of, like,
the clergy group, where there's one where I've
seen it, where there's, like, one clergy who either feels a need to
be super, like, oh, my ministry is going
so great, or almost like the opposite, I think, sometimes in
mainline circles where, like, things are so awful.
Like, what. What hits you there?

Yeah, I mean, I think just to
kind of build on what has been shared so far.
Like, I think everybody is naming,
um, a, ah, piece in this
that we don't want to lose, which is,
like, pedestals haven't Served
clergy well. Right. Like nobody has
been served well. Um, by being put

(22:48):
on a pedestal, either the person
themselves or congregations. It's just, it's
not a healthy dynamic. So that need
to, to really position ourselves as
fellow disciples who are also on the
journey. Not perfect. Um,
and at the end of the day we

(23:08):
are just people. I think that that
is extremely important.
Um, I mean, yeah, you get
the bitch and brag dynamic
in clergy gatherings. That can be
not the funnest thing about
um, clergy gatherings. And I think that you
know, kind of at the end of the day

(23:30):
it is really hard to get
outside of
the um,
success, failure, mhm.
Uh, like
polemic that we're set up with in ministry.
Because you know, at the end of the
day like there is very

(23:52):
much a sense of competition
across our churches. Um,
I don't think that we call that
out enough. I don't think that we
are honest enough about it. The more
that um,
Christianity and participation in

(24:12):
organized religion declines,
the more that there is a sense that we're all competing
for scarcer resources.
And so um, it
is I think hard. Even when we're trying
to be fellow disciples and even when we're trying to get
off that pedestal. I think it can be hard

(24:32):
to step outside of that
need like to
prove that we're
successful, um,
or to
get outside of that guilt that we
feel when we're not successful.
Um, like that we just get so set

(24:54):
up to
um, feel like if
things aren't going well, it's my
fault.

>> Loren (25:02):
Yeah. Martha, let's stay on
this because I'm sensing from
Brian something's bubbling up within
me. I just wrote a substack about
processing my own grief and be real,
like somewhat guilt from my own church
planting efforts like that ended three
years ago. So

(25:25):
Brian, it seems like you got something bubbling up here.

Oh, I, uh, yeah. I mean I'm,
I'm wearing my glasses so you probably can't see it. Like I'm,
I'm tearing up a little bit because that is
like, gosh,
that, that
success, failure, competition
piece is so,
it's uh, it's so. I feel

(25:51):
like it's so destructive and it's so ugly. And
it's something that I have struggled with too. Like, I mean
I, before I, before I served at the church
I'm at now, like I, I served at
two very large, fast growing churches in the
Denver metro area. Um, and
I still will see or hear about, you
know, these great successes that they're having in growth

(26:14):
and their, their worship team well, they're making albums
now and you know, all this kind of stuff and, and I'm
like, yeah, and I'm leading worship for 125 people
on a Sunday, you know, in a, you know, in a
borrowed building, you know, um, like what,
what, where did it all go wrong? And uh, here's
the, the funny thing.

>> Loren (26:33):
I'm.

I'm happier in ministry than I think I've ever
been in my 27 years of doing
this. But I still, I see that and
there's something in me that goes, you're, oh, you missed
it, you missed that train. And ah,
uh, I just, I hate, I hate that that is
there, you know, um, and I, you
know, I need to find some way to try to

(26:55):
integrate that for sure. But like,
you know, and I try not to, but I look at social
media and I see, you know,
the people at the big churches and I see the lights and I see the
hands raised and I see all of that stuff and
it is hard for me not to think like that could that have
been me? Like, how different would my life have been?

(27:17):
And then all the, you know, like you said, the guilt that comes
in with, you know, the stuff that
surrounds why I ended up leaving that church and all
that, like, it's just, it's uh, it
is painful to think like that is
uh, it's even more
painful to let it go. I think
it, it bubbled up in me because like I never

(27:40):
thought about it that way of uh, like
oh, there is still some
guilt and some regret that lives
there, um, as a result of
how things went and where my life
has taken me now.

>> Loren (27:56):
Um, so yeah, well thanks for sharing that.
Brian Kinsie what's rising within you
as you hear this conversation?

Well, ah, so Loren, you were at.
When I was at PTS and I talked about like typical stress
responses and like compete, um, as a typical stress
response and that's what's coming up for me. And I
think, I think we often
feel that in our
um, business context, whatever that may be. I mean

(28:25):
I definitely feel it with a non profit I will compare myself
to others and feel like I'm behind and other times
I'll feel like, yeah, I'm like winning. You
know, that's not as often but it's that it's
that same kind of
comparison and I
don't think that's inherently wrong. Like I think it's good as human
beings to kind of think about. I mean

(28:48):
we can't do it without it. We're social beings so we
constantly Kind of compare so that we can make sure that we fit in and we
belong. I mean, ultimately it's about belonging that can
comparison. But when it goes
off course is when we feel like,
um, I don't belong. Like, what I'm doing
isn't good enough. The people that I'm bringing

(29:08):
To Christ, these 125 people, Brian, you know,
like, maybe they have deeper, more
meaningful relationships with Jesus Christ and each
other. But, you know, when we're in that
stress response, um, and it can come from, like,
maybe money's tight. Like, I know a lot of churches, money's tight.
We've got these old crumbling buildings. And it's like, I'm

(29:28):
doing really good ministry with these people. And
I feel like I'm failing because we don't have money.
Or maybe I'm struggling because I can't get a raise,
you know, and I. And then I feel guilty about asking for a raise
because, like, the church is struggling. So there's, there's
all these layers,
um, that I think

(29:48):
trying to. When you feel that rise up is like, is
this about capitalism? And I feel like I'm not producing.
Is this about patriarchy and I need to be a certain way to
be considered, like, powerful. Is this
about, um, I'm just tired
and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't do a good
job. Um,
so it's, there's, it's so complex.

(30:11):
Um, and I think that's why these conversations are important.
And this is what I would really love for clergy gatherings to
be. You know, like, we could talk about these things.
Things and really have some insight and feel those emotions
well up and have a safe space to talk about
it and maybe hear from, you know, like, you heard from
Martha. It's like, oh, I'd never thought about it that way. Like,
that's so helpful. Gives me a new level of insight

(30:34):
to kind of integrate what it is that I'm feeling so it
doesn't come out sideways, like from the
pulpit, you know, or towards my spouse.
Um, so, yeah, like, I would love it if
clergy gatherings could be like this, but I think it takes
a level of vulnerability and within yourself
to feel safe enough to do that. And a lot of them are.
To Martha's point, you're competitive. You

(30:57):
walk in with your guard up of like, I gotta prove that I'm
doing a good job because I feel so worthless and guilty. But I
can't let anybody see that.

>> Loren (31:04):
Yeah. Yeah. Martha,
you. You kind of initiated this conversation. I mean, you've been
doing this. 20 years of ordained ministry.
The Anglican Church in Canada, again, I only know from
a distance, but I imagine from what I've heard,
it's facing many of the same challenges, if not
further along. Right. Than churches in

(31:24):
the States face the pressure on pastors, the
dwindling resources.
Share more what your thoughts are on this.

Yeah, I mean, there was an article that
came out maybe a month ago saying that
the Anglican Church of Canada is already dead.
So, um, there's sort of
regular, um, regular
reports on, um, the
declining resources and the declining

(31:54):
membership. And
um, you know,
my colleagues will hear Brian's
words about, uh, 125 people and
think like, I'd be thrilled to
have 125 people,
ah, on a Sunday. Like,
we're definitely talking about different scales

(32:17):
here. Um, you
know, I think in many of our
denominational systems and definitely in the
Anglican system, there is
a body
that should allow
these systemic, collective
conversations to take place.

(32:39):
Um, but at the end of the day,
it, I think on the ground still
feels as if, like we're all just
competing for a smaller and smaller market share.
And then there's tremendous
stress and grief,
not just for the

(32:59):
pastor, but for the congregations as
well. And then that can
kind of produce a feedback loop
that makes, um. Yeah,
that makes it all
the harder to minister in
a congregation that is just consumed with
grief about seeing something that

(33:22):
they've loved and served slipping away
from them. Um, yeah.

>> Loren (33:27):
And it's like it's the pastor's fault, clearly. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I guess the other dynamic I
would just want to name as well
is, um, the
hero worship. When things do go
well, isn't any healthier. Like
that's like, certainly we can feel a lot of
guilt, but it's also really
a bad, um, spiritual place to

(33:53):
get into where you start to believe your own press.
When people say like, oh,
well, you know, we've,
you've saved us and we can't do this without you.
Um, so
all of that can just
be really soul destroying.

(34:14):
Um, right across the board.

>> Loren (34:17):
Yeah. Yeah. Let's
take some individual questions here. And I do want to come
back, Martha, to the topic of
systemic issues. Kinsie what are
your thoughts on
signs that a pastor might be aware of that
they're approaching burnout or some kind

(34:39):
of real mental health challenge?

Yeah, I think if, um, a big sign
is if you are
dreading going to work, I think that's a pretty clear
indication that you're probably hardcore in
burnout at that point. Um, if you're just kind of
like, ah, I don't really like this aspect of my job.
Um, you know, that's not. It's just something to

(35:02):
check in on. But if you are. You're
exhausted all the time, you don't have energy,
um, you're kind of. You're cranky, and you really
think of the people in your congregation as
bothersome. Um, like, there's a lot more
bothersome people than there. There used to be.
Um, I think that is an indication. And

(35:23):
also, I, um, recently was talking to a pastor and he was talking
about. He is. He was coming back from three months of
leave. Um, and he
said. And he had a tremendous amount of guilt about this, but he said,
I just don't want to take care of
people. I don't. I don't have it in
me to hear about their problems and feel like I have
to take care of it. And I'm like, yeah, pretty

(35:45):
pretty much hardcore burnout.

>> Loren (35:47):
Yeah.

Um, and the tricky part about that
is, what are the
options? You know, like, he had been on leave. And
so then what do you do at that point? Um, how
do. How do you address that? And
that's, you know, kind of an individual thing to kind of look at what
are my options? Some of it can be. Is looking
at, um, are you sure?

(36:11):
Like, why is it your responsibility to take care of them?
Like, is that the only way that this would work? Are
there laity that you could share this with? And maybe you could create
a pastoral care team, you know, kind of getting creative?
But it's hard when you're in burnout to be
creative and to feel like there are options. So
it's just this kind of. It can be this,
um, spiral down. Um, and

(36:34):
so that's why, again, I think it's even more important that
you have. You build up a
cohort of clergy or good friends. You know, it
doesn't have to be clergy that you can talk through about this, but I
think it's helpful to have other clergy because then they can help you
be creative when you're in a bad
spot, um, or. And sometimes we just
need to be heard and feel like we're seen. And that can

(36:56):
help relieve a lot of that.
Um, so, yeah, I think those are the big things you can
look at your. If you're super anxious, that's another
indication that you might be, um, on the cusp
of burnout, of like, oh, my gosh, I've got to get up there and I've got
to preach again. And, like, I have Nothing. And I, I don't even know
that I believe it anymore. You know, that that kind
of stuff is. That's rough.

>> Loren (37:19):
Yeah, this is good. Uh, Brian, I want to ask this
question to you. I've heard this said by
other leaders who influence clergy,
that clergy and other church leaders can
get in the space where we really look at ourselves
as employees of God rather than as
children of God. We're so obsessed with kind

(37:39):
of facilitating other
spiritual encounters that we sort of lose and
disconnect from God ourselves.
Uh, what are your perspectives on that?

Yeah, um, that
sort of like doing.
The way I sort of differentiate that is doing for God versus
being with God.

>> Loren (38:01):
Right, right.

Um, that's one of the big,
um, distinctions we try to make, uh,
with green room leaders when we're talking to worship leaders about it, is that
there's this, there's. I mean, from the
time that we, you know, I mean, gosh,
even going back before we probably even became followers
of Jesus, like you're a 5, 6, 7, 8

(38:22):
year old kid and somebody first asks you,
like, what do you want to, what do you want to be when you grow up?
You know what they're really asking you is how are you going to
contribute to this great society that we've created?
You know, um, what are you going to do,
um, to be productive? Uh, and then that
seeps into our Christianity because

(38:42):
even, you know, even at least
for in the evangelical tradition, when I gave my life
to Christ, um, and invited Jesus into my heart,
um, you know, there was all this great
fanfare and you know, like, they do this whole big
thing at church. And then as soon as it's
over, like, I was whisked away to the pastor's

(39:03):
office, given a Bible and said, okay, go home and read the Book
of Mark. That was it. Like,
and, and then figure out, like, okay, now what are you going to do?
Like, how are you going to serve? What are you going to do for God?
Um, and, uh,
man, that if there had been,
you know, like, oh, you know, okay, so

(39:23):
you've just made the decision to follow Jesus.
Now you get to go away on a week long silent
retreat and just enjoy being with
him. How different would my
Christianity look? You know, how much different would all of our
Christianity look if there wasn't such a
huge emphasis put on now what are you going to do for
God? Um, and I think that

(39:45):
again, is one of those things that just leads to that burnout,
but also it leads to that sort of that
feeling of indispensability. You know of,
like, well, if, if I'm not, if I'm not
going to do it, nobody else will. You know, there was
a. I still hear it every once in a while,
but, you know, it, it

(40:05):
really started to rise up kind of the middle, uh,
early 2000s where it was like, you know,
you'd be in your pre service meeting or
whatever and, and someone, usually the lead
pastor would say something like, okay everybody,
like, this may be our one
chance to ever speak the truth of
the gospel to the people that are sitting in these seats,

(40:28):
so don't blow it. Like,
I like. How much pressure
are you putting on ourselves? Like,
uh, that, I mean, that just. Pardon
my language, but that just reeked of bullshit to me from the beginning.
Like we. That this is not
the fact that someone's personal salvation is

(40:48):
entirely up to me and how I perform from this
stage. I had to, I had to reject that
right away. But there are so many who haven't and still
put all that pressure on themselves,
um, to, to be the one
hope for these people who have walked through the doors of
our church. There's only one hope, and that's
Jesus. Um, and I'm not Jesus.

(41:11):
Uh, so, um, I'm going to try to
start taking the pressure off myself and take all this stuff
off of me, um, and just see what it's
like to be with, uh,
and see the fruit of that
relationship. Um, it's slower.
Um, it's not as exciting, it's not as

(41:31):
sexy, but man, it's really good
fruit. Um, is what I'm finding that when
I can, when I can slow myself down and invite
other people to slow down and just be with and
do ministry with God instead of for Him.
The fruit of that is so much better.
Um, and it's, it's so much less
damaging to my soul and to the souls of the

(41:53):
people around me. Um, so.

>> Loren (41:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is great. Martha, what's,
what's uh, what are you hearing here that you want to echo?

Yeah, I mean, I think that like,
there definitely is a
sacrificial element to being a worship
leader. Right? Like, you can't just
get lost in wonder, love and praise like
you, you do need to be attentive
to shepherding your people in a
particular way. Um, that,

(42:24):
you know, for me anyway, and I said this many times
on the podcast, like, it, it actually
is kind of against my natural
grain. Like, I'm not a naturally extroverted
person. I don't enjoy
speaking in, like, I don't
enjoy public Speaking,
um, I think I'm good at it, but, like, I.

(42:46):
It's not how I would choose to spend my
time. And yet, you know,
I think when I'm healthy in ministry,
I can experience those sacrificial
elements as
very spiritually meaningful.
Because I find,

(43:06):
like, my. My prayer center is
just like, God, I need you to do something with this.
Because, like, I. I don't have,
like, confidence in this, just
like, by myself. Um,
so, yeah, like, I. I feel like
if I can return to that prayer, like,

(43:27):
whatever I'm feeling stressed about
in the worship today and whatever I'm
anxious about, and getting up in that pulpit, like,
God, if you can, please do something with it,
like, that's. That can be
a very, uh, rich
place to land. And,

(43:47):
um, and
it can bring a ton of joy in ministry,
even when, um, it's not
always easy.

>> Loren (43:58):
Yeah,
well, let's shift gears here slightly, just if
only because we're already 40 minutes in
and, man, we need about, what,
40 more hours, I think. But, Martha, I wanted
you to. I want you to lead off this part of the conversation. But we
talk about systemic changes now,
certainly for our guests here,

(44:21):
some of us are in more
defined systems than others.
Obviously, in evangelicalism, there
are what. Brian, you could speak better
to this than I could. There are some more structured
networks than others. Um, but, Martha, why
don't you start off talking about, especially from your
perspective as a pastor, what you think

(44:44):
structurally could be done, whether it's in the local church
setting or in a network denominational
setting, to help pastors.

Yeah, I think I have a couple
of observations,
um, about that, and they are linked on
both a congregational level and a
denominational level.
I would say, by and large,
I have enjoyed a happy
ministry. It hasn't always

(45:14):
been easy, and I have had times of
struggle, but by and large, like, two decades
of ministry have been happy.
And the major thing that I
credit to that is that
I have always worked in a team,
so I have never felt
like I have to be the jack of all

(45:36):
trades. And I've never
felt particularly lonely
in ministry, which I think is,
uh, you know, quite different from a lot of
people's experience. So, um,
I think that there is something systemically
that we could do with that observation.

(45:58):
So in my denomination,
okay, like, we have dwindling
congregations and dwindling resources,
but we do have resources. Like, we do have
a lot of real estate. We have a lot
of bank, uh, accounts.
Um, that's not to diminish
the very real financial

(46:21):
hardships. Um, that a lot of individual
congregations and some
networks face in the Anglican Church. But it
is to say that if you looked across the Anglican Church of
Canada, you could,
um, you could,
like, sum up a lot of resources

(46:42):
that feel like,
uh, a complete system of scarcity when
everybody's just fighting over those
resources in their own individual congregations. Right.
So what I would love to see
is some collective
conversations about, okay, like,
we're, we're all in this because

(47:04):
we love our church and we want
to serve God.
And so collectively, what do
we have? Like, what gifts do we
have? And then how are we going
to direct those gifts
to do the work that
we believe that we're called to do? I think that's a very

(47:26):
different conversation than just
an individual pastor in,
uh, an individual congregation
feeling like, why can't I make this
work? And how are
we going to keep this ship afloat?
So, I mean, that's a pretty specific

(47:49):
example, uh, from my context.
But I think that there
are, um, those sort of
systemic conversations waiting to be held
across, um, the Christian
landscape. And I think that the
more that we can, um,
think about how we

(48:11):
create teams of ministry, and I don't mean
just ordained leaders,
um, but teams of
people whose gifts complement
one another and who are,
you know, deployed, uh,
equipped, resourced, um,
to be able to share those gifts,

(48:33):
to build up the body of
Christ in the place where they're called,
um, I think that really could be a game
changer.

>> Loren (48:42):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Martha. I'm just thinking of a conversation I
had yesterday with another pastor, and we talked about,
like, even just
doing something where one pastor's preaching
live and the video is being piped into another church.
I mean, like, it's not. Obviously, everyone wants
a great dynamic preacher in front of them, but also like Life

(49:03):
Church in the States has made a model of
that. So it's not like it's completely
unfeasible. Um, Brian and
Kinsie Let's start with Kinsie What do you thought? What
thoughts do you have on just that kind of the systemic nature?
Obviously you come up, you come about it from a
different perspective.

Yeah, I think,
um, you know, and I'm thinking of
it from more of a mainline perspective where there's. There
tends to be a middle judicatory. Like there are people
that are in upper, higher levels in
denominations.
Um, I feel like we have a lot of
meetings and there's not a lot of action. Um,

(49:42):
and that really could be because we don't do conflict
well in the church. Like, we, we can often
get stuck on being the church of. And we want to
hear everyone's perspective and we want to make sure everyone's heard. And
it's like, yes, and at some point we've got
to move beyond meetings and actually start
just trying stuff and really looking at it as this

(50:03):
is totally an experiment and it
could be an epic fail and we realize that, but there
could be learning and
um, new insight to come out of that. And
I think we're so often stuck in this analysis
paralysis mode of like, we need more data, we need more
assurance of like, like, no, like just get out there and do

(50:23):
it. Like embody it. Like get out there
and I don't know, try some programs or something. So
I don't exactly know
what that is about. Um, maybe it's just
human nature and maybe when you get to
a certain level you have a lot more tendency
to be risk averse. Um, but I think

(50:43):
we need some courage and some bravery because otherwise
we're just going to die due to attrition, you know, like,
because we're not doing anything, we're just stuck.
So that's my ideas around, like the
systemic issues.

>> Loren (50:57):
Brian, let me, uh, obviously in an
evangelical space, there's not as much
formalization or necessarily organization.
Obviously that somewhat varies, right? Depending on
the tradition within evangelicalism. Obviously Southern
Baptists have a denomination, Vineyard,
what Calvary. They have various levels of
organization. Feel free to respond to what

(51:19):
Martha and Kinsie said. But I'm also curious, from your perspective,
do you think that lack of organization is sometimes
a challenge for pastors or leaders?
Uh, I'll speak from my own experience. There was a time, even
though I was working for a denominational church
because the church was so cut off from the
denomination, it felt like I was kind of on an

(51:41):
island. And when like I was getting hammered
by the church for things that were not fair, it was like I could
be like, hey, the denomination says this and they're like, hey, we don't care.

Yeah. Ah, yeah, yeah.
I, man, I,
I'm not as, I'm not as familiar
with, you know, the like, mainline
sort of, uh, you know,
structures and organizations. So like
when I, when I hear like my Methodist friends,

(52:11):
you know, say like, yeah, well I'm not pastoring this
church anymore because the, you know, because the
synod or whatever, they, they decided I need to go to this church now
and it's like, yeah, oh, they can do that. Like, it just seems
so, seems so foreign to me. So I don't know a ton
about that. Um, I do know, like
there is organizational structure within the

(52:31):
evangelical church, even non denominational, but
where I think we've, we've pretty much
just adopted it all from big business.
Um, and so you know, your lead
pastors, CEO, your executive pastor
is your you know, COO
or whatever, you know. So like we have,
you can, you can almost take those organizational

(52:54):
structures from big business and superimpose them on top of
a lot of especially larger evangelical
churches. Um, which I think
there are plus sides to that because yeah, you do need some
good leadership. You do need that organization.
Uh, but it has also, I think we've also
adopted a lot of big business strategies. And
so um,

(53:17):
where like you know, we start asking ourselves
questions like what's the win? You know, and
we, and we operate our budgets the
way that big businesses operate their budgets and we
make decisions based on a fear of failure.
Like, like, you know, like you were saying Kinsie you know
it. And uh, you. So
basically what are we going to do to protect the bottom

(53:39):
line? And, but there's a lot of confusion about
what that bottom line is. Is that bottom line like
the souls that we're saving is that bottom line,
the music that we're doing is that bottom line,
the, the amount of money that we're bringing in, uh, is
that bottom line the number of butts that are in the seats?
It's so nebulous. Um, and so

(54:00):
that has caused, I think that's what is causing a lot
of the attrition that you're seeing on
evangelical church staffs. Um,
they're like, I, I don't understand the game anymore,
so I'm just not gonna play it. And so,
um, so they are, they're self ejecting
because they just don't, they don't know the rules of the game

(54:21):
and they don't know how to play it. Um, as far as
like systemic changes that I would love to
see within the evangelical church,
um, I think there's a lot that we can learn
from, um, models,
you know, like the Anglican Church,
where you know, that we probably

(54:41):
could use a little bit more accountability from the
top down. We probably could use a little bit more structure.
Um, but I think we could learn a lot about
like congregational care, um,
and from, from those models. I know
there, there's a, there's a group of, I
guess more evangelical churches, evangelical
ish churches here in the Denver area,

(55:03):
um, that have adopted more of like a parish
model, uh, for how they care for their congregations
where it's all centered around neighborhoods. You know,
it's not necessarily like, how could we reach the whole
city for Christ? Or how can we reach our whole state or the
whole world? They're like, how could we just reach our. Our
neighborhood? Um, and how could we.
How can we mobilize the people within our

(55:25):
congregation to care for their neighborhood
and things like that? So. Because a lot of the. A lot of the
burnout that comes in the evangelical
world comes from that pressure to be everything
for everyone. And so we have a program for
every single person in the church. Like, you
know, our ministry for people with
size 8 shoes who are 55

(55:48):
and have hazel eyes. We'll meet on Thursday
nights. Oh, and we've hired a pastor
just specifically for those people. You
know, um, it's. It's
just ridiculous. And so to be able to
put that. To put that onus
on the congregation, to be the
priesthood of believers and say, like, you have what

(56:10):
you need to care for the people around you,
and if you don't have what you need, then
we'll step in and we'll help you. But it
just. The fact that we have a program,
uh, and an opportunity for every single person
and staff that with a pastor, it's
just getting out of hand. So, um, I would love to

(56:31):
see us learn a little bit more, uh,
from our high church brothers
and sisters, about how to care for our congregations
and care for our communities without it having to be a
staff person all the time.

>> Loren (56:45):
Yeah. Yeah, let's
do this.

We're.

>> Loren (56:49):
We're approaching an hour here, and I don't want to keep you all too
much longer. Let's take a break, and we'll come back with
some closing questions.
All right, we're back. So let's do some practical
things, so
maybe share a
resource, whether it's this

(57:09):
podcast. Right. That folks can listen to.

Definitely. That's one of the resources.

>> Loren (57:14):
Yeah, absolutely. Martha, I was hoping you'd at least take up that
mantle. Um,
uh, something practical someone can do to support
their own mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and
maybe something you've done
yourselves to take that first step,
uh, toward help. Uh, so,

(57:34):
Martha, why don't you begin?

Yeah, I mean, and
shameless plug, um, is
intentional. But, um,
I, as I've been listening to this
conversation, um, like, the word that
just keeps bubbling up for me is
learning. And I think that when we
can be people who are in

(57:59):
ministry and in the life of
faith, as students, which
is what disciple actually means, you know,
as people who are learning,
um, then I do think that that
is a big way that we
dismantle, um,
the success, failure dichotomy. I think that

(58:22):
that is a, um, big way that
we, um, take the
performative anxiety, some air out of the
tires on that. Performative anxiety is
when, like, we have that permission to
try some things and then to know that we're going to be
able to learn from them together.

(58:44):
Um, and I think
that really is, like, why
Loren and I do this podcast. Like,
ah, I think that we have a variety of reasons why
we do it. For me, like, that's the big reason. Like, I
just, I want a space where
we're hearing from a whole bunch

(59:04):
of different perspectives about what
is actually happening and what we're learning,
um, so that we can like,
just be people who
realize, like, we are in a time
of absolutely epic
change in terms of,

(59:25):
um, religious
participation. And we
just have to put our student hats on and be willing
to hear one
another, listen deeply, um,
experiment,
um, and with the Holy Spirit as our
partner to figure out some next

(59:47):
steps. Um, so that would
be kind of the
resource piece, um, that I would
say on a just much more personal
level. I will, I will say like, for
myself, that my
wellness is really

(01:00:09):
attached, um, to
being able to be in my body
and um, build some
physical exercise into, into
my life. That doesn't sound like a super
spiritual thing to say. It is. Like, for me,
it really is. That is what I
need in order to have time to

(01:00:32):
reflect and pray, to discern,
um, to take that little knot
of yarn that's got all tangled up and to
feel like I can unknot it.
Um, and like
just a, A, uh, trick
that I started doing during the pandemic and I've really

(01:00:52):
tried to stay with it, is that when I have a phone call
that I need to make in my work, which
is often, I have a lot of phone calls I have to make. You know,
checking in with people and that kind of thing. I just try to
walk while I'm on the phone and
um, like, that's just kind of a
little hack that, uh, I think
can build some wellness. If the

(01:01:14):
weather stinks, then I walk around the
sanctuary while I'm talking on the phone.

>> Kinsie Tate (01:01:19):
Own.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:20):
Um, so,
yeah, those are.

>> Loren (01:01:25):
Yeah, that's good. Kinsie
Kinsie share. Maybe something from,
you know, something you'd recommend to leaders, to pastors,
and then you're, well, save
your. We're going to give you time to plug your stuff. So give
a. I guess. Martha, we cheated, didn't we?

We cheated. Yeah, shamelessly.

>> Brian Davis (01:01:44):
Hey, shamelessly cheated. It's your pod
show.

>> Kinsie Tate (01:01:47):
We can cheat.

>> Loren (01:01:48):
We can cheat.

>> Brian Davis (01:01:49):
Yeah. Do what you want,
Kendi.

>> Loren (01:01:52):
Share something, uh, pastors can do and
then another resource you'd recommend for them.

>> Kinsie Tate (01:01:59):
Yeah, I really, um, think that
community is important. I know that, like, our
church is our community, but really finding
a place where you feel like you can connect.
Um, and if you're not finding it for
free, really consider investing in it. Like,
pay for something that feels like it's worth
your time. Um, because, you

(01:02:22):
know, the. The biggest indicator of what we truly value
is how we spend our time and our money. And so
if you really value that, then maybe
it's worth finding something,
um, or, you know, asking your middle judicatories or
finding maybe even your church, like, hey, can you help me pay for
this? So I think finding a

(01:02:43):
good group, a cohort, even if you
have to pay for it to start out with, is worth the time
and investment. Um, and as far
as, like, a takeaway,
I agree with Martha. Like, physical
movement, I think we underestimate that because of
diet culture. We really have put it in this weight loss

(01:03:03):
category, but it's not. It is so
important for our just physical,
mental, even spiritual wellbeing. I mean, if you think
about, like, how we get tied up in knots
and how, um, like my best friend can
always tell is, like, you're pacing, aren't you? And I'm like, I am because I'm,
like, talking to her and I'm pacing around the room. And. And
it's just, like, helps me move through either what I'm

(01:03:26):
feeling or thinking about.
And so really shifting
movement into a category
that's just as important as what we eat. Um,
so that's kind of a very practical thing of.
It's not exercise, but I just need to move
my body because we spend so much time sitting and being

(01:03:46):
sedentary, um, that, like, if you're feeling down
or even if you're feeling tired, it may be that you actually need
to get up and walk around and move your body rather than
taking a nap. So that's what I would say.
Practicing.

>> Loren (01:03:58):
That's good, Brian.

>> Brian Davis (01:04:00):
Yeah. Um, yeah.
Specific practices. Um, I,
I'm, personally, I'm a journaler.
Um, I love. You know, I, I had a
friend tell me, or maybe it was a teacher years, um,
and years ago, that if it's bouncing around in your head,
it owns you. If you can write it down on paper, you own
it. Um, and so, uh,

(01:04:22):
so, yeah, I'm. I'm a. I. I want to say I'm A voracious
journaler. I'm a voracious proponent of
journaling. I don't always journal as much
as I. As much as I should or as much as I would
like to, but that's a. That's been a big practice
for me. I know it's not for everybody.
Um, I think, um,
things like, uh, the Ignatian, uh,

(01:04:44):
examine daily, uh, or weekly, um, is
a big, uh, a big help. And I do that along with
my journaling. Um, and so,
uh, yeah, I think just being able to stop
and notice what's been going on around you and in you,
you, um, is, uh, super
helpful. Anything where you can
stop is really

(01:05:07):
helpful. Um, and so, uh, yeah, those would
be some practices, uh,
uh, that I promote and. Or espouse.
Um, what was the other thing I got so
wrapped up in?

>> Loren (01:05:20):
Yeah, I mean, that's good. I mean, just like steps to better Health.
That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Brian Davis (01:05:25):
And go for a walk.

>> Loren (01:05:26):
Yeah, go for a walk. Let's do this. Now,
um, Martha, I don't want to put you in the spot. Do you want to
plug anything about your project.

Like, beyond the podcast?
Yeah. Um, I mean.
Oh, yeah, that's kind of a different topic. But
I did publish a book. I mean, this is how we met
is. Because I came on the podcast to talk about my previous
book, which is called why Gather, which really
does wrestle with my own,

(01:05:57):
um, kind of coming to the cusp of
burnout and, um,
with what it means to serve
in, uh,
uh, an institution that has
been in decline for my entire life.
Um, and

(01:06:17):
how I kind of. How I
squared that circle of, like,
why do I want to. Why do I
not just feel compelled to continue on
in leadership in the church, but
can actually embrace,
um, continuing on in

(01:06:37):
leadership in the church? And I wrote it primarily during
COVID so there's also a, uh, pandemic
that, um, factors into the book as
well. Um, I think we all got a
chance to really ask whether what we
were doing felt worth it when
suddenly all of our regular patterns fell
apart. So, uh, why Gather?

(01:06:59):
It is available, you know, most of the
places where you get your books online, probably.
And, um, yeah, I'll wait to say
more about the writing project that I'm working on right now, because
it's. It's a different beast.

>> Loren (01:07:13):
Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Um, Kinsie go
ahead and talk about your stuff.

>> Kinsie Tate (01:07:18):
Yeah, so, um, Restore Clergy. You
can find
that@restoreclergy.com
and what we offer are
cohort programs. So the main one is called The
Restoration Fellowship, and it's for small groups
of clergy, um, and it's an
ecumenical cohort. So it's not just the

(01:07:39):
same clergy that you always see at
the, you know, at your denominational
gatherings. Um, and the focus
of that is to really help pastors get to the root of
what am I bringing into the situation that may be making it
harder? You know, the, the thing that I was talking about in the
beginning of, you know, we know there are all these
systemic things and when we are in a

(01:08:01):
really stressed out situation, we can notice how everybody
else is making our lives harder and how it's everybody
else's fault. Um, and what
this program does is really in a gentle way
help you to turn in and look at. But what am I
bringing to the table? What are the
beliefs that I bring that are maybe making me feel more
restricted than I actually am? And how is that

(01:08:24):
impacting me emotionally and
physically? And then from there we
practice, we embody it, we
experiment. And really getting into that place of,
well, let's try what feels like a safe way to try
this out and see what happens. Let's get some more data.
But let's not get stuck up in our heads of
analysis paralysis. Let's actually, can you

(01:08:47):
try it out? And then if you can't, why not? Why does
that make sense? Not from a place of shame,
but really a place of curiosity,
um, and growth and understanding.
So that's what the Restoration Fellowship
is. Um, and you know, you're doing this work with
other people so you can build really meaningful,
authentic connections with folks.

>> Loren (01:09:09):
Yeah, yeah, Brian, uh, talk about green
room leaders.

>> Brian Davis (01:09:14):
Yeah, so, um, Green Room
Leaders, uh, we care
a lot about the spiritual
and physical and mental health of, uh, of worship
leaders in particular. Um, and
so, uh, we offer, ah, also a
cohort, um, called, uh, the
Green Room, um, which is a space that we invite worship leaders

(01:09:36):
into for a year, um, to
ah, work on soul, ah, heart,
mind and strength. So, uh, we start with the
soul, which is not where a lot
of at least worship leader resources. That's
not usually where they start. Um, there's a lot of emphasis
on mind and strength stuff like how do we, how do we plan
and how do we implement that plan? Um,

(01:09:58):
and uh, we want to start with the soul
and say, like, hey, remember you are a deeply
loved and accepted child of God. Um,
and uh, oh, and remember all those people that you
lead on a weekend, those are all deeply loved
children of God. So what happens if our leadership starts
there? Um, and then how does all of our planning and
implementation flow out of that, um, and

(01:10:21):
what is the, what is the fruit we get to
um, that we get to rejoice over? So uh,
yeah, that's what we do, uh, with worship leaders,
um, just because we are seeing just a tremendous
amount of burnout and um,
attrition among worship leaders. Um, I
think two to three years is the average tenure of a worship
pastor right now at a church. Um, and

(01:10:45):
it's not good. Um,
uh, so yeah, we want to see longevity in ministry for
worship leaders. Um, but we also know
like we've got to get out of that sort of chasing
Sunday pattern of the weekend's
the only thing that matters. As long as I can get there and get
through it, then I'm going to be fine. No, you're not going to be

(01:11:05):
fine. That's going to kill you over time. And so
um, we want to create space for worship leaders to be able
to find some health and some restoration,
uh, and some rest, uh, in their ministry
journey. So. So, uh, you can find out
more@greenroomleaders.com um, you
can sign up for apply uh, for a cohort
now. Um, and uh, we're starting to get

(01:11:28):
all those people together.

>> Loren (01:11:31):
Well this has been a fabulous conversation. We'll make sure we
have links to Martha's book and
Kinsey's Restore Clergy and then Green Room leaders with
Brian. So uh, Martha,
I've done the majority of this leading and
here you want to close out this episode with.
For our listeners or Kinsie and Brian.

Yeah, I mean I'm super grateful Loren for
you, ah, calling this panel together.
As we kind of said at the outset, I would
say that this is a topic that
bubbles up maybe more than any other topic
across the conversations that we have on future
Christian. And, and
um, I just

(01:12:13):
think that uh, creating this
kind of honest,
collaborative uh, space to talk about something so important.
I mean I'm quite astonished by what you just
shared Brian, about like two to three year
longevity. Like that's um, like
crazy. Um, but like

(01:12:34):
it again, it just like points to the
necessity of, of
being able to have these conversations and
really do uh, some
collective um, resourcing.

>> Loren (01:12:48):
Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like I don't want
to speak for Martha here, but I feel like we need to make this
another standing uh, thing
to come back. Yeah, let's do this,
Martha. We always leave folks with a word of peace.
So we're praying God's peace for you
Brian and Kenzie and

(01:13:08):
Martha and also for all the
pastors and church leaders listening to this,
so may God's peace be with you.

>> Loren Richmond (01:13:24):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But

(01:13:45):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.

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