August 5, 2025 • 60 mins
What happens when Christian faith gets filtered through purity rings, YA fiction, and pop-punk soundtracks? In this episode, co-host Martha Tatarnic welcomes writer and journalist Joelle Kidd to discuss her new book, Jesusland. Joelle shares her experiences growing up in a conservative Christian school and how the teachings she received influenced her understanding of faith, identity, and culture. This candid conversation explores the complexities of navigating a religious upbringing marked by purity culture, shame, and the impact of Christian pop culture on personal and political landscapes. Joelle reflects on the positives and negatives of her faith journey, the importance of self-ownership, and the need for a more inclusive and compassionate Christianity. Whether you were steeped in youth group culture or always felt on the outside looking in, this episode invites reflection on the messages that shaped us, and what kind of faith might lead us forward.
Topics Covered:
-
What “Christian pop culture” really means and how it shaped Joelle’s youth
-
The collision of capitalism, conservatism, and evangelical media
-
How shame, purity culture, and literalist theology distort identity and faith
-
The rise of Christian influencers, tradwives, and mega-pastor empires
-
What the church can do differently—especially for young people today
Joelle Kidd is a writer, award-winning journalist, and editor who lives in a book-filled basement apartment in Tkaronto/Toronto. Her work has appeared in outlets such as The Walrus, This Magazine, Lit Hub, The Rumpus, and Xtra Magazine. She holds an MFA in creative writing from the University of Guelph. Jesusland is her first book.
Mentioned Resources:
📱 Follow https://bsky.app/profile/joellekidd.bsky.social).
🌐 Website: https://joellekidd.com/
🎧 Mike Cosper: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-2m9ra-176f33e
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha
Tetranick welcomes Joelle Kidd to the show.
(00:50):
Joelle is a writer, award winning journalist and
editor who lives in a book filled basement apartment
in Toronto, Tu.
Her work has appeared in outlets such as the Walrus,
this Magazine, Lit Hub, the Rumpus,
and Extra Magazine. She holds an MFA
in Creative writing from the University of Gulf of
(01:10):
Jesusland is her first book.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
share Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. You
can send us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
with questions, comments or ideas for future
(01:32):
episodes. We appreciate your voice and
how we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:46):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host
for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic,
and I'm happy today to be joined by
Joelle Kidd. Welcome, Joelle.
>> Joelle Kidd (01:57):
Hi. Thanks for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:59):
Okay, so normally, like, we kind of have
our standard opening and closing
questions that we ask all of our guests. But as
I was uh, reflecting on our
conversation today, Joelle, I was
realizing that a lot of what you talk about
in your book would be things that we would
normally cover in those opening questions. So I don't
(02:22):
want to, you know, let the cat out of the bag too early
and then be, um,
repetitive when we get, uh, to your book.
So instead I think it would just help
to frame our conversation if we gave our
listeners a bit of a sense of who you are
and what you do. Our paths, um,
(02:42):
intersected through writing in the Anglican Church.
Uh, you were on staff for our national Anglican
newspaper for a time. But, uh, can you just
share with our audience where you are
now and uh, what
your work is as a writer, um,
what you're up to? Yeah, for sure.
>> Joelle Kidd (03:03):
Um, yeah, so I'm, ah,
a writer. I've been working in, um,
newspapers and magazines for most of my
career, um, including at that
Anglican newspaper You mentioned, um,
ah, but I always have written and I've always
wanted to write fiction. Um, so
(03:24):
most recently, um, I just completed a master's
program in creative writing, um, in fiction,
and have been working on a novel. But
in between all that, um, I wrote this book
that we're going to talk about today, uh,
which is essays, creative nonfiction.
So it's kind of a blend of those two things. The
(03:44):
more journalistic work I've done and,
um, my. My love of
creative writing. Um. But yeah, I'm
living. Living here in Toronto. I grew up in
Winnipeg and grew up, uh, going
to sort of evangelical
conservative, um, Christian school. And so that's
what really shaped my experience that I wrote about in the
(04:07):
book.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:08):
Yeah. So we're definitely going to dive into that
quite a bit.
Um, I find,
um. I find that interesting. Like, I
actually didn't know the pieces around creative
writing. And I have to say, like, as a
writer myself, although
everything that I have published has been in the
(04:29):
realm of, um, nonfiction.
Like, I really have to actually force
myself to read nonfiction. Like my.
My heart is totally in the.
In the realm of fiction. And I always thought I
would write novels, not uh,
you know, nonfiction, memoirs, church.
(04:52):
Churchy sort of things. But
it's funny the way that life. I still
can. I. Well, I have a few like, um,
unpublished novels that are
sitting on USB sticks here and there.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:05):
Nice.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:07):
Whether the world actually needs to read those or not,
I don't know. You have
some, uh, um, unpublished novels as well?
>> Joelle Kidd (05:15):
Oh, yeah. I love it.
One day.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:20):
Yeah. Well, that's really exciting. Like, you're done your
master's in creative writing now?
>> Joelle Kidd (05:26):
Yeah, yeah, I just finished that up last October.
I guess.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:29):
So.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:30):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:31):
Congratulations. That uh. That must have been
pretty exciting.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:36):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:38):
Okay, so let's get into our
main topic of conversation because I'm,
uh, really eager to. To you about your new book,
which is called Jesus Land. Catchy
title. And I'm, uh, just
gonna sketch out a little bit, um,
for our readers, uh, what it
(05:59):
is about and how it's shaped, uh, encouraging
everybody to get a copy and read it.
It is part memoir of your time growing
up in a fundamentalist Christian environment.
Um, it's really part cultural
commentary and, uh, looking
at like, Christian pop culture of the early
(06:19):
aughts and how that was
intersecting with pop culture as a
whole. How it was its own distinct
thing where these two parallel tracks
had influence on one another.
Um, and I was particularly
interested in some of the ways that we're
experiencing the influence of those ideas that
(06:42):
you grew up with, um, on our political
landscape today. So there's. It's a really
like, rich and timely book.
Um, can you start by
sharing with our listeners a bit about
the church that you grew up in, but particularly
that private Christian school that is
(07:04):
such a feature of uh,
Jesus Land. Um, what were the
distinguishing characteristics? What were the
beliefs and the environment there?
>> Joelle Kidd (07:15):
Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah.
Part of the impetus for the book I think was
because I came into it,
um, I grew
up in it after a certain point and so I kind of came to
it late. Uh, my family lived in uh, Eastern
Europe when I was younger and when we moved back to
Canada, started going to this Christian school.
(07:38):
And um, my family, I come from like a
Mennonite tradition. Um, and
the churches I went to growing up were small
community churches. Um, and so when I
started going to this Christian school,
um, this idea of Christian pop culture was really
foreign to me. Um, and I felt
very behind on it. All my peers
(08:00):
like knew all these Christian bands and Christian
movies, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, but the school
I went to, um, so it was a non denominational
school, um, those kind of
affiliated with some Baptist and Pentecostal
communities. And I think it fell
into this very common, ah,
(08:22):
North American thing where non denominational kind of just
means conservative. Uh, evangelical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:28):
Right. Yeah.
>> Joelle Kidd (08:30):
Which I don't think is actually very helpful because
the message I absorbed, um, was that this is
just sort of like this is what Christian means,
um, with a capital C. And I
didn't really know about other denominat donations and
practices. Um, I don't think I like even
knew what the Anglican Church was as a kid.
(08:51):
Yeah, we had one, one Catholic student in our
grade who was. Everyone was trying to convert him because he was
like a real Christian or something.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:58):
Not a real Christian. Yeah, yeah.
Anglicans I'm sure would not be real Christians
either.
>> Joelle Kidd (09:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah. So some of the distinguishing
beliefs that I thought were really
emphasized, um, were this
evangelical framework, like this Great Commission,
the emphasis on needing to evangelize
others, um, the need to accept
Jesus as your personal savior to go to heaven.
(09:27):
Uh, there was a big emphasis on purity,
um, sexual abstinence and
also just like purity of thought.
I think the Christian pop culture connected there too,
where it was, um, you were meant
to only absorb Christian media as a way to keep
yourself pure from any outside
influences. Um, we were
(09:50):
taught, ah, creationism and
ah, very like literal interpretation of the Bible.
Um, that idea that everything,
every word in the Bible is true and
um, sort of Equalized.
Everything is worth the same amount.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:12):
I was, like, really struck,
um, by the
comprehensiveness of, like, the pop
culture that. That you were. The
Christian pop culture that you were,
um, fed. Like, it wasn't just the
music, it wasn't just the movies. It was magazines,
it was YA novels. It was, like, everything that
(10:33):
you were reading and consuming was,
like, through this particular Christian lens.
And so,
like, that sense of having
to, like, be protected from
the outside world or, like,
to have sort of, uh,
(10:54):
an exclusive,
like, culture that
provides everything for you. Like, that's so different
from what I was raised with. Like, when
I started as a teenager to think that I
was called to ministry. Like, my dad's
immediate reaction was like, okay, well, make sure
(11:16):
that you're reading really widely and that you're,
like, taking courses that,
um, challenge your
beliefs.
Don't get yourself cut off from the world. Make sure
that you're staying connected to that.
You don't become part of a Christian bubble. But
(11:36):
it really was a Christian bubble, right?
>> Joelle Kidd (11:39):
Yeah, absolutely. That's really. That's great
that your dad said that to you. I think that's really
important. Yeah. Like, my, like, kind
of quippy thing is, I feel like. I don't know if
you heard this a lot, uh, in your corner
of the church, but growing up, I feel
like I often heard this phrase that you're supposed to be in the world,
(11:59):
but not of it.
Um, and to me, the
Christian pop culture bubble is really that
you're of the world somehow, but you're not in it. You're so
separated from the real world, but they're taking
on all the trappings of, like,
secular pop culture and a lot of the sort of
toxic messages that you're taught
(12:21):
outside of that, uh, bubble, too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:22):
So, yeah, Yeah, I definitely want to
dig into that a little bit more because I was quite
fascinated by some of those dynamics
and again, comparing them to what I grew up with.
But, gosh, there was even, like, a part
toward the end where you talk about, like, Christian
comedians and this worry that, like,
maybe, like, you couldn't be funny as.
(12:46):
As a Christian. Like, that Christians
actually couldn't have a good sense of humor. Like,
I had no idea that there were. That that
was a thing.
>> Joelle Kidd (12:57):
Yeah. Even wanting to write novels and write
fiction as a kid, I was so worried that, like,
could I do that? Because all the Christian
novels I read were so.
Or I didn't really want to write about, you know,
Christianity in fiction.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:16):
Like, were you getting exposed to some other things
through your family as well, or
were those years where you were just pretty much
like locked in?
>> Joelle Kidd (13:28):
I definitely was. My family wasn't very
um, tapped into that. Even
uh, even reading the book. I gave the book to my
parents to read before, um, before it went
into copy editing and they were kind
of shocked that they didn't even know half this stuff existed.
They weren't really paying the pop
(13:48):
culture stuff. Um, but so most of it came
through my school and my friends at school.
Um, but yeah, I think
I valued my parents um,
influence more because I think uh,
the books and the music and movies
that they ah, showed me or
(14:10):
that I watched with them, um, were
the ones that I actually related to a lot more than these
Christian media that I
consumed with my friends.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:21):
Yeah, well, okay, so that kind of like
that gets into what I found to be
such a page turner about the book. Like I
found it extremely absorbing because it was
this mix of like
dynamics that I found very relatable
but like pop
(14:42):
culture that I wasn't familiar
with at all. And I think that you
do such a good job
like really um,
compelling description
of what it, like what
growing up feels like and what growing up feels like when you're
(15:02):
trying to fit in and like when you feel like you're a bit
out of step with the people around you and
you're trying to make sense of um,
what messages you're getting and how
you fit into that. Like all of that is
extremely relatable. Like I, you
know, I, I know about that stuff,
um, like friendship
(15:25):
and, and in crowds
and out crowds and you know, all that stuff
insecurity, like just
navigating how you figure out who you are
and then experiencing within
all of that these places of real
conflict and tension as you
(15:47):
tried to fit yourself into
a narrative and beliefs
that actually
didn't feel like they fit for you.
Um. What would you like describe as some of the
positives of your faith
upbringing?
>> Joelle Kidd (16:07):
Yeah, um, there were certainly a lot of
positives I think. I mean I mentioned my
family, um, being sort of on the outside of
this Christian um, bubble in a
way. Uh, I come from a very close
knit family, um, coming
from the Mennonite church. And
(16:27):
uh, I had a lot of I think really good
experiences in Mennonite communities.
Um, whether that's my grandparents
little house church that they ran,
um, or the small community church we attended when I
was growing up. Um, I always
related pretty strongly to
the values that were being taught there about like
(16:48):
justice and peace, um, and community
and that sense of closeness
that um, comes with Like a small group like
that where you're having church potlucks every week.
Um, and I think there were good things
to be found in the school I attended also. It was, it was
also a pretty small school. And so
(17:11):
there were definitely, um. There was like
a comfort in that. And um,
even though in retrospect I don't really
agree or appreciate with a lot of the
teachings I was given there, um, it's
an institution. So, uh, it's full of
people. And on a person to person level, there
(17:32):
were certainly a lot of really kind and caring,
um, teachers and friends
that I made there. So, um,
yeah, there was a kind of, I guess, comfort and
um, sense of
belonging in some ways that
faith, uh, gave me when I
(17:52):
was growing up.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:54):
Do you have, like, have some of those
friendships endured kind of past
the leaving of that
tradition?
>> Joelle Kidd (18:05):
Um, I have one
really close friend still that I grew up going to
school with and one more like,
see, uh, each other every so often kind of friend.
Um, so I'm down to two,
but it was a very small school, so percentage wise
it's pretty good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:22):
But yeah, yeah, I think that's better
than I'm doing from high school.
>> Joelle Kidd (18:29):
That's good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:31):
Um, like, has that friend read the book,
the Close Friend? Do they?
>> Joelle Kidd (18:36):
Not yet. Uh, yeah, I'll need to mail it to
her.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:41):
It'll be interesting to like, see what her
reaction is and um,
what she recognizes there.
>> Joelle Kidd (18:49):
Yeah, I think that's something interesting about those
lifelong friendships because, yeah, she
and I have also. And maybe this is another
positive of growing up, like in a religious environment.
I think, um, the kind of friendships
I have with people that I met. After I
graduated high school, I spent a little bit of
(19:09):
time working for a Christian missions organization.
And, um, again, an environment
where I felt a little at odds politically
and philosophically with a lot of people. But
the friendships I made there also
feel really strong because
you're talking about such deep,
(19:29):
uh, important things and you're
really sharing like, something that you don't necessarily
share in your life with other friends, other
friendships that you just sort of, um,
meet, you know, in the wild. So.
Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:47):
Yeah, I think that's insightful.
Um, I mean, you certainly
don't, uh, shy away from delving into, uh,
the stuff that was quite damaging in
your faith upbringing. Do you want to just share
some of those notes?
>> Joelle Kidd (20:03):
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think the
most damaging parts were
really focused around like, shame.
And um,
there's been more and more research and writing
in Recent years about um, the
what they call a purity culture of the 90s and
(20:24):
2000s, um, which I think
continues even now. But that felt like a very
concentrated moment for it, uh, where
evangelical pop culture and a lot of
um, conservative messaging really focused
heavily on sexual purity,
um, but also like I mentioned before, like
purity of your thoughts and this need
(20:46):
to like sort of reach a kind of perfection to be
acceptable, um, as a Christian.
Uh, and so yeah, those kinds of teachings really
gave me a lot of shame about my body, my identity.
Um, and yeah, as I write in the
book, I identify as queer, but I really
suppressed that part of myself for a long time because
(21:07):
of those teachings.
And I think even the sort of like the
threats of hell or
um, the sort of punitive
uh, way of talking about Christianity really plays into
that shame based thing also.
Um, yeah, and there, there were also some
(21:29):
harmful messages I absorbed about women, about
queer people, um,
some really like politically
conservative readings of the Bible that I was taught,
um, that I think feed into like
a colonial, like white supremacist
history of Christianity. Ah,
(21:49):
that I think now I see a lot of. Even when I
was working for the um, for the Anglican
Church, I saw a lot of people doing a lot of work to unlearn and
um, decolonize those aspects of
Christianity. But in my experience when I was growing
up, that was very much still
entrenched in what we were taught. Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, it's, I guess
not just that there's
perfectionism, but there's such a
narrow understanding of what
perfect looks like and yes,
um, yeah, how you like need to fit into
that. I was really struck.
(22:31):
And again this goes to the
relatable versus foreign parts of
what you were describing in the book. I was
just really struck by
um,
the shame that you talk about.
And like regular listeners of this
(22:52):
podcast will know that I grew up like thoroughly
mainline Christian,
um,
but I also grew
up with lots of um,
messages of shame around my
body. Um, like secular
mainstream culture tells
(23:14):
us lots of unhelpful things about
sex and body image and
um, the role of men and women and
blame about sex and how we're supposed to think about our
bodies. Like you don't need to be part
of a, ah, fundamentalist evangelical
church to absorb
(23:34):
really bad messages about like
you know, how, how we're
supposed to look and how we're supposed to act and
how we're supposed to feel
inadequate. You know, like I, I
think that we can all grow up uh,
feeling like there are impossible standards
(23:54):
that we can never actually attain.
Um,
interestingly, like I grew up in a
very small town in rural Ontario.
And um, in the
town that I grew up in, like there were was not one
out person in my whole high school. Like
(24:15):
it was in many ways a very
conservative town.
Um, and yet
it was actually in my church that I
uh, that I really considered
um, LGBTQ rights.
And um,
(24:36):
like it was from my Christian
perspective that like I argued in my law class
that ah, that um,
same sex couples should be able to adopt for
example. Like that was
like an opinion that stood really at odds
with the secular culture that I grew
up in. Um, and
(24:59):
in many ways, like, I think that's what
uh, excited me about being a Christian was
the sense that our Christian tradition could have
ways of clapping back to the toxic messages
that we absorb and saying something different
and like challenging the status quo.
Um, and yet
(25:21):
like as you said in the Anglican Church as well,
and certainly like in Christianity
in general, um,
Christianity can just totally get
co opted into saying the same toxic
things, maybe with different packaging.
Um, like
(25:42):
what would be sort of
your imaginings about
Christianity as an
alternative versus just one
more um, place where you
get the same old messages of guilt and
inadequacy.
>> Joelle Kidd (26:03):
Yeah, I mean I love that
that was the catalyst for you because I think there is
a real um,
possibility there.
It really still appeals to me, um, thinking about
the stories um, that I read
of the gospels, stories of Jesus that are
(26:25):
these sort of radical um,
reimaginings, um, they are
sort of upending the system, uh,
or like those teachings that really dig
uh, further beneath the surface. And I think
um, that's where I see a lot of possibility
for Christianity is to
(26:47):
sort of undermine these systems that are in power
in the wider world.
Um, I
think, I guess one of
the main theses that I
came away with after writing the book is that
I just don't think there should be Christian pop
culture. Like this sort of marriage of uh,
(27:10):
religion and capitalism I think is
where those messages start to get
co opted and things start to really
um, solidify in an
unhelpful way. Um, because I
think a lot of what gets commoditized is
uh,
(27:31):
um, not there to help
everyone. It's there to keep one group
in power at the top.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:38):
Um, interesting.
>> Joelle Kidd (27:39):
So yeah, when you bring that
kind of hierarchy into religion, I think
uh, it's not what was taught
in the Bible, I think.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:52):
Can you just like describe some of
that like
capitalistic infiltration of
the culture you grew up in? Because it really was of
A moment, wasn't it, where like there were big bucks
available in like Christian
media of a whole variety of things.
>> Joelle Kidd (28:13):
Yeah, it's such an interesting time to me.
Um, one thing that really
interested me about that period was this
sort of mainstream crossover at the time,
um, that happened in the
2000s. Uh, you had like
pop stars wearing purity rings.
Um, and
(28:35):
the rise of like
um, some laws
that changed in the states around the late 90s, early
2000s meant that Christian groups could lobby
quite uh, with no
holds barred lobbying, um, in the
political sphere. And so you had the rise of this like
issues voter that got George Bush into
(28:57):
office. That was really like this
fundamentalist Christian worldview.
I um, was shocked at how much money was poured into abstinence only
education, for instance in that time
period. Um, so yeah, there was a weird
marriage of like the, the
secular and the Christian at the time.
Um, and also it was just
(29:20):
a high point for like,
for pop culture to make money.
Um, right before the Internet came in
and undermined a whole bunch of industries.
It was possible to be making a lot of money through
book sales and through CD record
companies and um,
(29:40):
uh, independent movie distribution.
And so, um, yeah, I think
that's part of it. And part of what was interesting is
that um, you had these Christian bookstores
that were these hubs of all this Christian media,
um, that were actually really making a lot of money
in that time period. And about 10 years later they were all,
(30:00):
almost all um, bankrupt. So
it was kind of a concentrated point of all that culture
being distributed. Um,
and one thing I write about a little bit too is that ah,
ah, a lot of the production of that media was happening in
the United States. Um, and then it was being
exported and me in the
(30:23):
middle of Canada, I was reading stuff
coming from, focused on the family that I didn't even know
that's, you know, that was who was printing the
magazine I was reading. Um, and none of my
teachers and my parents looked at it. They
just thought it's Christian, it must be good. And
lots of messages were getting slipped in under
(30:44):
the, under the wire.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:47):
Yeah, well,
um,
there were a couple of um, points
of intersection that uh, definitely
like did infiltrate
like my experience back in the early aughts
as well. Even though lots of what you describe I
didn't know about at all. But like it was such a big deal
(31:10):
when Mel Gibson did the Passion of the Christ.
And I remember like all of the front
pages of People and so on for a
while, um, were all kind of
talking about like is Christianity suddenly Cool. Like,
all of these big stars are, like,
suddenly vocal about their faith.
(31:32):
Um, so, like,
it. It did have this, like,
interesting back and forth.
I wonder, like, now, uh, you know,
as you say, like, there isn't the same kind of money to be
made in, like, book sales and,
um, like
(31:52):
CD sales and stuff now. But,
uh. But there's still lots of money to be made in
Christianity. Right? Like, is there any
connection between, like, what you were
growing up with and, like, the mega
churches of today and kind of the
celebrity pastors? The
influence, like Chris, there's sort of like Christian
(32:13):
influencers now, right?
>> Joelle Kidd (32:15):
Yeah, Yeah. I kind of think that's
where the gold rush is now, I think.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:21):
The gold rush, yes.
>> Joelle Kidd (32:24):
Social media.
Yeah, there are a lot of, um,
fundamentalist influencers out there.
Um, tangential to that.
There's been a lot of, uh, talk
about this movement of trad wives,
women who stay home and
(32:45):
showcase, um, this traditional vision of marriage and
motherhood. Um, and
yeah, a lot of that is, I think, very similar. It's sort of
repackaging, um, these
same ideas into a new format.
Um, and even
though it's, in a way, it feels a little more
(33:06):
like, uh, grassroots because
it's a person putting themselves out there, I think it
still has, uh. I think
they still get kind of locked into a
cycle of having to perform that,
um, that might also be
pretty damaging in the long run.
(33:27):
Um, but, yeah, I think also more
recent things like Hillsong Church or,
um. Yeah, just sort of like
megachurches that act almost
like big franchise corporations or
something, like expanding over the world and,
um, selling music or selling,
(33:48):
uh, or doing podcasts or
whatever. Um, yeah, it's. The
Christian pop culture machine is still going
strong.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:57):
Yeah, it's still going strong. Like, they have figured out
how to adapt. I interviewed Mike
Cosper a couple of months ago who did
that podcast on the rise and fall of Mars Hill.
>> Joelle Kidd (34:10):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:10):
And he's written a couple of books about all of those
dynamics as well. And just
kind of the really dangerous dynamics of
ideological thinking that can
get locked into
a, uh, message that
seemingly seems like it should be good. And so people
(34:30):
are kind of willing to overlook
a lot of stuff that is clearly
at odds with that message because
they want the message to succeed.
Yeah, I. I
think I was. I just kept
feeling like as I was reading your book that
(34:51):
there. There are ramifications
of all of this pop culture
that, you know, seemingly.
Um. Okay, like, so what if
there are movies about, you know, people,
um, turning their lives around because of Jesus
or Like books about the rapture or
(35:13):
um, purity
rings or, you know, like,
Jesus is my boyfriend albums or whatever.
Like, it doesn't
maybe feel like it's that serious, but it
does feel like there are a lot of
political ramifications of
(35:33):
the stuff that was
circulating like 20, 25 years ago.
Like what, what felt like timely to
you about revisiting all of this
part of your life?
>> Joelle Kidd (35:47):
Yeah, absolutely. It felt, uh, felt
too timely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:51):
Um, too timely.
>> Joelle Kidd (35:52):
Yeah. I pitched the book in
2023 and spent a year writing it. And
while I was researching and writing, I just couldn't believe,
like how. I don't know if I realized how relevant
it would feel. Um,
and uh, yeah, not only
the politics and the themes that
(36:13):
I think are sort of like popping up again and again, but,
um, even the same people I'd be
reading. There's a great book, um, Marcy
McDonald's the Armageddon Factor about
Christian nationalism in Canada in the 2000s.
And so I'm reading that and up pops a young
Pierre Poliev. Or I'm reading
about right wing movements in the States. And
(36:35):
um, the laws are being made by Mike
Huckabee, who now has like a big
um, right wing talk, ah, show.
And um, yeah, it's the same
people, same players.
Um, when you dig a little deeper past the
surface of these pop culture things, I mean, I think
um, Left behind is like a great example
(36:57):
where growing up I thought of that as a kind of,
um, mildly terrifying but kind of
silly book. Uh,
that was everywhere. It was like being sold at
Costco. Everyone was reading it, but I didn't
really see it as having any political import. And when
I was researching the book, I didn't realize that the
(37:18):
writer of that novel,
uh, he has huge political influence. He,
um, was instrumental in a lot of
conservative political,
anti LGBT legislation.
Um, and he uh,
was on um, the
(37:40):
National Evangelical Council or something.
He kind of like codified this belief in the
rapture that is laid out in the book as
part of the theology, uh,
of that denomination or that segment of
Christianity, um, which is so much more
recent than I thought. So. Yeah,
(38:00):
and he, I mean even earlier in the 70s,
he and his wife like wrote a book about
Christian marriage that has a lot of really troubling
complementarianism and um,
misogyny and purity stuff in it.
Uh, that was really influential. So, yeah, even
just that one guy, his trail is a lot
(38:20):
longer than I realized.
Um, but yeah, it feels relevant in the
sense too of, uh, Trump
was selling $60 Bibles with
his name on them during the campaign. And
um, J.D. vance is making speeches
that sound a lot like Mark Driscoll sermons. And
(38:42):
um, yeah, everything feels like it's sort of
coming back to roost a little
bit, um, in my mind,
ah, my, like the generation
that grew up with those things is sort of my Generation's
in our 30s and 40s now,
I guess. I think J.D. vance is 40, so he probably
(39:02):
grew up listening to Christian music of the same time
period I did. Um, and
yeah, it feels like a little bit of that,
a little bit of backlash to some more
socially progressive years, um, all
kind of combining into this strange
soup.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:21):
Yeah, strange soup indeed. And
I mean Trump has been elected for
his second term, um,
both times around. I understand that that
evangelical voting bloc was
essential in
um, in his election.
(39:43):
Um, I'm not sure that we have quite the same
political dynamics here. I'm sure
that there are voting blocs,
um, in Canada as
well, but uh, I'm not sure
that they have quite the same influence. He needed
to lock into that
(40:04):
um, voting block in order to have a chance
of being elected.
>> Joelle Kidd (40:09):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You can
really see, um, like the
candidates in the states have to cater to that
group. You can tell. I
mean, it's like Donald Trump
doesn't look like any Christian I grew up with, but
he still manages to win people
(40:31):
over.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:33):
Well, and I mean, again, like,
I do spend a lot of
time kind of puzzling around
um, evangelical fundamentalist
teaching and culture because there are
aspects of it that I don't understand at all.
But you know, you noted like right at ah, the outset
that there was this sense of like every word of the Bible
(40:54):
is to be taken like as
seriously as every other word. And I know what you mean
by that, but. But it's also
like, not true. Right, because
there's whole parts around justice
and care for the poor and
providing food for people
(41:16):
that is really
neglected in favor of sort
of single issue focus around
ah, um, uh, like in
the States, abortion for example. Right.
Like that, that becomes the
issue that gets raised so far above
(41:38):
like any of the other,
um, like words of the Bible that I
would think we should be taking pretty seriously.
>> Joelle Kidd (41:48):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. A lot
of issues that aren't. Um, I mean
there's so many places in the Bible that just clearly
say take care of the poor. Take care of.
Yeah, the widows and the orphans. And um,
there's not the same clarity around some of these issues
like abortion or
(42:09):
um, yeah, same sex marriage or
what have you, but those become the hot Button
the whole politics of the religion
hinge on um,
yeah. Which again I kind of tend to see as
another way of
where capital flows and
(42:30):
um, ways to consolidate political
power.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:34):
Yeah, I think that is ultimately
what it is.
Um, I'm interested in
where your faith sits
now. Like, you have worked for the
Anglican Church, you've written a book
that's all about wrestling with the
good, the bad and the ugly of one particular
(42:57):
uh, version of Christian culture.
Like obviously the Christian faith
is alive in you in a
particular way. As in like it's
m. Something that occupies
real estate in your
brain. Um,
(43:17):
maybe rent free. I don't know.
>> Joelle Kidd (43:19):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:21):
Um, what is your relationship
with the church now or with the
Christian faith?
>> Joelle Kidd (43:29):
Um, it's hard to say.
I have a pretty uneasy relationship with it. I think
when it comes to church and organized religion I've
kind of
broken up with it a little bit.
Um, I feel like I still have
some faith and some spiritual side of
(43:50):
myself, but I've kind of given up on
the term Christian and
I don't know, I feel really lucky to
have um, had the faith journey
that I've had or like been able to experience a lot of
different sides of Christianity.
Um, and in my adult life I've definitely
(44:11):
found some really beautiful communities of faith that
were aligned with my progressive
lefty politics, politics and uh, accepted
my queerness and read the Bible in
um, non literal, very deep and
thoughtful ways. Um, so I know
those communities exist and I might ah,
(44:31):
someday make my way back to one of them.
I'm not sure. Um,
but yeah, personally I think I just have felt a sense
of being kind of burned one too many times
by the church at large.
And I think a lot of people
share a similar feeling of
(44:52):
in the last few years even thinking
about since Donald Trump's first rise to
power, like the way that
Christianity, um, is sort of in the popular
imagination become this really,
really sort of hate filled, like
nationalistic,
(45:12):
um, right wing
version of itself, um, feels really hard
to deal with because to
consider yourself a part of that community and
even um, you know,
siblings in Christ with people who,
you know, have actual
(45:34):
hatred for people of your identity,
um, it's difficult. I don't think it's
feels good. And so it stopped feeling
like a word I could use for myself.
Um, but yeah, I don't know.
I'm in a real unknowing space
right now. I think after
(45:56):
I went to a spiritual advisor a few years ago and
I think what I learned from talking with him was that after
so Many years growing up in this very black and
white, um, rigid
kind of environment around faith. It felt
really good to be able to say that
I don't need to know right now and I can,
(46:17):
um, live in a little bit of uncertainty.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:21):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of
sense. And that was the sense
I got from your book as well,
is that, uh, like there's not a
closed door because obviously
these are things that, like I said, are
still working away in you and
(46:42):
your processing and so on.
Um, but there's definitely a need for
distance.
>> Joelle Kidd (46:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:52):
Um, like my kids are both
teenagers and it's
interesting when they reflect with me
about all of the,
like, unpacking that they sort of have to do
with their friends when they say that they go to church or that
they're a Christian. Like, like my daughter
especially is sort of like, uh,
(47:14):
yeah, I'm going to church. Like, these are all the things that
doesn't mean. And like,
and like, it's
ah, even my son
who goes to a Roman Catholic high school,
he, you know, tells me that most
of his friends have
(47:36):
a particular sense of what
Christianity means that is very much about
like, um, anti
lgbtq, anti woman,
anti, uh,
climate, um, you
know, like pro
patriarchy. And
(47:57):
um, just like
that they have an extremely negative
view of Christianity. And yeah, we're not,
ah, Christians are not helped by some of
the loudest representations
of what Christianity
supposedly means right now.
(48:17):
Would you have like, any
takeaways that you would like?
We primarily,
um, offer this podcast for
people who are leaders in the church
and trying to figure out how we
navigate like, the
leadership in the church in a world that's
(48:38):
so, uh,
so chaotic
and um, where we are like, dealing with
such tremendous, um,
trends around like, decline in the church
and um, culture wars in the church and
all of those. Like, would you have things that you would
(48:58):
want Christian leaders to hear, think about,
like, in how they minister and how
they minister with young people, but maybe just in how they
like, respond to the world in general. Like, what would you want to
hear from Christian leaders?
>> Joelle Kidd (49:16):
Um, I think
what came. What comes to mind is,
I mean, I talked a little bit about that idea of shame being
um, what I found most damaging
in the church. And I think
the way that kind of was taught to me was
through this, um,
(49:40):
conception of
self that
um, really kind of,
uh, took away my autonomy as a person.
Um, I think
culturally we're much better at this now
with kids than we used to be. But I think it's important
(50:02):
to teach young people um, especially
that they're valued and they have meaning and control over
their own self and they can have boundaries,
um, and connect with their own
emotions and their bodies. Um,
but growing up in the church, I got the message that
nothing I had was my own. It was, uh,
(50:22):
my body and my mind. Everything was a tool for God to
use or a house for God.
Um, and that I think
that idea is like wrapped up in that shame idea
and also something that really persisted in a negative
way into my adulthood.
Um, so that's kind of my woo woo
answer. But I think that like,
(50:44):
teaching people, um,
like self love and to value
themselves rather than,
um, to be
some kind of like,
ah, robot for God to pilot,
um, I think it would be
(51:05):
a much more helpful, ah, tact,
especially for young people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:12):
Yeah, um, friend of mine
who I've had on this podcast, he talks
about, um, some of the
really young women who were leaders in the
early church and they get,
they get labeled the virgin martyrs.
But he like, reframes them as women
(51:32):
of self possession, which I just love.
Like, women of self possession that, like,
that there was like this robust
alternative for women in the early
church, especially to
defy like, gender conventions, to
not be a piece of property passed
(51:53):
from man to man, but like to have
a voice and to stand up and to
like, um, bear witness and
like defy convention
like that. Uh, self
possession, I think is
a teaching that we can see across
(52:14):
scripture and across the tradition.
Um, but maybe we could
boost that up a little bit in our
teachings.
>> Joelle Kidd (52:24):
Yeah, yeah, I love that phrase. Self possession.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:27):
Yeah. Okay, well,
um, why don't we take a break and we'll
come back for some closing
questions. Um, and
yeah, um,
thank you for helping us walk through
some of the points of your book. There's so much more to
(52:48):
get into. And so I really hope that our
listeners will pick up a copy because,
um, there's many parts of it
that we haven't been able to touch on. But I'm glad that we
got to talk through some of the points. So
we'll come back in a few minutes.
>> Joelle Kidd (53:03):
Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:07):
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm with
Joelle Kidd today and we are
going to wrap up with our closing
questions. Rapid fire, that we ask all of our
guests. And we do always tell our
guests that you don't have to take these questions
super seriously. It can, uh, be
as light or as serious as you
(53:29):
want. It's up to you. So Joelle,
if you were pope for the day, what
would, uh, that 24 hours look like. What would
be the top priorities?
>> Joelle Kidd (53:42):
I don't really know how to answer this one.
I mean, am I allowed to say, let women be
priests? Is that in the Catholic Church? Is that
allowed? But, um, you are totally.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:53):
I mean, you're Pope, so you can say whatever you want.
You're in charge. That's kind of the takeaway.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:01):
Yeah, I think I would, uh, institute some,
uh, uh,
DEI reforms into Christianity.
Uh, it's funny because I asked my partner this because I was like,
what would you say to this? And they
went, I would declare myself Pope
tomorrow too. So I was like, you can't do that.
I would wish for more wishes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:23):
I know. I was just going to say that's totally the genie in the
bottle.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:28):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:28):
I want more wishes.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:31):
I don't know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:32):
I mean, you can say that too. Like, I would use my day
to make myself Pope for the rest of time.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:41):
I don't know if I would want that power.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:44):
Yeah, it might get old.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:46):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:48):
Okay. Well, I think that, um, the
ordination of women or some
DEI policies would be a good use of
that day.
Is there a theologian, a historical Christian
figure who you would want to meet,
bring back to life, have supper with?
>> Joelle Kidd (55:10):
I have been a little bit,
um, obsessed recently with,
um, Simone Weill, the
French philosopher and Christian
mystic. And I've been,
I have, ah, her book Gravity and Grace on my night
table right now. I've been slowly reading. Um,
and she's such a strange,
(55:33):
complicated person, but her writing really speaks to me,
so that's who I would definitely bring back. And
also, just as her as a
fervent socialist, I would love to hear her
thoughts on our current political
landscape.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:49):
Yeah, that would definitely be
a, ah, dinner conversation worth having.
>> Joelle Kidd (55:55):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:58):
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?
>> Joelle Kidd (56:03):
Um, it feels like we're in a very
historical moment.
Um, so I feel like a lot will be
remembered. Um,
I think we're moving
really fast technologically and we're also
destroying the planet at a very quick
rate. Uh, it just feels like everything is shifting a
(56:25):
lot. And I think in
future times,
um, that, like, hackneyed,
like 2020 pandemic phrase of living
in unprecedented times that just sort of felt like it
never ended. And I feel like this era is going
to be remembered for
(56:45):
being uncertain and unprecedented.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:48):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we can
guarantee that if there is a future,
historians will be talking about this
time, this current time
and what was going on. Uh,
do you have a hope for the future of Christianity?
>> Joelle Kidd (57:09):
Um, I hope
Christianity. I hope it
becomes, um, softer is the word
that comes to mind. I hope that
the Christianity of the future is, like, less
militant and, um, less
hierarchical and more
grassroots and honest. And,
(57:32):
um, I hope, like I've been saying,
that it can kind of divorce itself from
capitalism and that
there are a lot of beautiful streams of
thought in Christianity in,
um, uh, liberation theology
and decolonial Christianity that I hope
(57:53):
just keep gathering force and becoming more
and more prominent in the faith.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:59):
Yeah, it's interesting that you use the
word softer to,
um, talk about that
picture of what Christianity could be, because there's
also, like, a lot of defiance that
would be needed to be able to
embrace that that way.
Um, like, we're gonna need spines
(58:22):
of steel, for sure.
>> Joelle Kidd (58:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I
guess in the way that, like, water is soft where
it can erode a rock. But.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:35):
That'S good.
>> Joelle Kidd (58:36):
That's really good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:38):
Where can people find out more about you, Joelle?
>> Joelle Kidd (58:41):
Um, well, I am. I'm
online. Uh, my website is Joel Kidd dot
com. I have a pretty rare name, so I got.
Got the URL
and, uh, my book Jesus Land is
out, um, August 12th, where you can
find out too much about me, probably.
(59:02):
Um, and I'm not very good at social media, but
I'm on bluesky and Instagram under my name as
well.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:09):
Okay. Well, we always end
with a word of peace, so may God's peace be
with you, Jo.
>> Joelle Kidd (59:17):
Thank you.
>> Loren Richmond (59:25):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(59:47):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha
Tetranick welcomes Joelle Kidd to the show.
(00:50):
Joelle is a writer, award winning journalist and
editor who lives in a book filled basement apartment
in Toronto, Tu.
Her work has appeared in outlets such as the Walrus,
this Magazine, Lit Hub, the Rumpus,
and Extra Magazine. She holds an MFA
in Creative writing from the University of Gulf of
(01:10):
Jesusland is her first book.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
share Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. You
can send us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
with questions, comments or ideas for future
(01:32):
episodes. We appreciate your voice and
how we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:46):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host
for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic,
and I'm happy today to be joined by
Joelle Kidd. Welcome, Joelle.
>> Joelle Kidd (01:57):
Hi. Thanks for having me.
>> Martha Tatarnic (01:59):
Okay, so normally, like, we kind of have
our standard opening and closing
questions that we ask all of our guests. But as
I was uh, reflecting on our
conversation today, Joelle, I was
realizing that a lot of what you talk about
in your book would be things that we would
normally cover in those opening questions. So I don't
(02:22):
want to, you know, let the cat out of the bag too early
and then be, um,
repetitive when we get, uh, to your book.
So instead I think it would just help
to frame our conversation if we gave our
listeners a bit of a sense of who you are
and what you do. Our paths, um,
(02:42):
intersected through writing in the Anglican Church.
Uh, you were on staff for our national Anglican
newspaper for a time. But, uh, can you just
share with our audience where you are
now and uh, what
your work is as a writer, um,
what you're up to? Yeah, for sure.
>> Joelle Kidd (03:03):
Um, yeah, so I'm, ah,
a writer. I've been working in, um,
newspapers and magazines for most of my
career, um, including at that
Anglican newspaper You mentioned, um,
ah, but I always have written and I've always
wanted to write fiction. Um, so
(03:24):
most recently, um, I just completed a master's
program in creative writing, um, in fiction,
and have been working on a novel. But
in between all that, um, I wrote this book
that we're going to talk about today, uh,
which is essays, creative nonfiction.
So it's kind of a blend of those two things. The
(03:44):
more journalistic work I've done and,
um, my. My love of
creative writing. Um. But yeah, I'm
living. Living here in Toronto. I grew up in
Winnipeg and grew up, uh, going
to sort of evangelical
conservative, um, Christian school. And so that's
what really shaped my experience that I wrote about in the
(04:07):
book.
>> Martha Tatarnic (04:08):
Yeah. So we're definitely going to dive into that
quite a bit.
Um, I find,
um. I find that interesting. Like, I
actually didn't know the pieces around creative
writing. And I have to say, like, as a
writer myself, although
everything that I have published has been in the
(04:29):
realm of, um, nonfiction.
Like, I really have to actually force
myself to read nonfiction. Like my.
My heart is totally in the.
In the realm of fiction. And I always thought I
would write novels, not uh,
you know, nonfiction, memoirs, church.
(04:52):
Churchy sort of things. But
it's funny the way that life. I still
can. I. Well, I have a few like, um,
unpublished novels that are
sitting on USB sticks here and there.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:05):
Nice.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:07):
Whether the world actually needs to read those or not,
I don't know. You have
some, uh, um, unpublished novels as well?
>> Joelle Kidd (05:15):
Oh, yeah. I love it.
One day.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:20):
Yeah. Well, that's really exciting. Like, you're done your
master's in creative writing now?
>> Joelle Kidd (05:26):
Yeah, yeah, I just finished that up last October.
I guess.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:29):
So.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:30):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:31):
Congratulations. That uh. That must have been
pretty exciting.
>> Joelle Kidd (05:36):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (05:38):
Okay, so let's get into our
main topic of conversation because I'm,
uh, really eager to. To you about your new book,
which is called Jesus Land. Catchy
title. And I'm, uh, just
gonna sketch out a little bit, um,
for our readers, uh, what it
(05:59):
is about and how it's shaped, uh, encouraging
everybody to get a copy and read it.
It is part memoir of your time growing
up in a fundamentalist Christian environment.
Um, it's really part cultural
commentary and, uh, looking
at like, Christian pop culture of the early
(06:19):
aughts and how that was
intersecting with pop culture as a
whole. How it was its own distinct
thing where these two parallel tracks
had influence on one another.
Um, and I was particularly
interested in some of the ways that we're
experiencing the influence of those ideas that
(06:42):
you grew up with, um, on our political
landscape today. So there's. It's a really
like, rich and timely book.
Um, can you start by
sharing with our listeners a bit about
the church that you grew up in, but particularly
that private Christian school that is
(07:04):
such a feature of uh,
Jesus Land. Um, what were the
distinguishing characteristics? What were the
beliefs and the environment there?
>> Joelle Kidd (07:15):
Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah.
Part of the impetus for the book I think was
because I came into it,
um, I grew
up in it after a certain point and so I kind of came to
it late. Uh, my family lived in uh, Eastern
Europe when I was younger and when we moved back to
Canada, started going to this Christian school.
(07:38):
And um, my family, I come from like a
Mennonite tradition. Um, and
the churches I went to growing up were small
community churches. Um, and so when I
started going to this Christian school,
um, this idea of Christian pop culture was really
foreign to me. Um, and I felt
very behind on it. All my peers
(08:00):
like knew all these Christian bands and Christian
movies, et cetera, et cetera.
Um, but the school
I went to, um, so it was a non denominational
school, um, those kind of
affiliated with some Baptist and Pentecostal
communities. And I think it fell
into this very common, ah,
(08:22):
North American thing where non denominational kind of just
means conservative. Uh, evangelical.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:28):
Right. Yeah.
>> Joelle Kidd (08:30):
Which I don't think is actually very helpful because
the message I absorbed, um, was that this is
just sort of like this is what Christian means,
um, with a capital C. And I
didn't really know about other denominat donations and
practices. Um, I don't think I like even
knew what the Anglican Church was as a kid.
(08:51):
Yeah, we had one, one Catholic student in our
grade who was. Everyone was trying to convert him because he was
like a real Christian or something.
>> Martha Tatarnic (08:58):
Not a real Christian. Yeah, yeah.
Anglicans I'm sure would not be real Christians
either.
>> Joelle Kidd (09:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Um, yeah. So some of the distinguishing
beliefs that I thought were really
emphasized, um, were this
evangelical framework, like this Great Commission,
the emphasis on needing to evangelize
others, um, the need to accept
Jesus as your personal savior to go to heaven.
(09:27):
Uh, there was a big emphasis on purity,
um, sexual abstinence and
also just like purity of thought.
I think the Christian pop culture connected there too,
where it was, um, you were meant
to only absorb Christian media as a way to keep
yourself pure from any outside
influences. Um, we were
(09:50):
taught, ah, creationism and
ah, very like literal interpretation of the Bible.
Um, that idea that everything,
every word in the Bible is true and
um, sort of Equalized.
Everything is worth the same amount.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:12):
I was, like, really struck,
um, by the
comprehensiveness of, like, the pop
culture that. That you were. The
Christian pop culture that you were,
um, fed. Like, it wasn't just the
music, it wasn't just the movies. It was magazines,
it was YA novels. It was, like, everything that
(10:33):
you were reading and consuming was,
like, through this particular Christian lens.
And so,
like, that sense of having
to, like, be protected from
the outside world or, like,
to have sort of, uh,
(10:54):
an exclusive,
like, culture that
provides everything for you. Like, that's so different
from what I was raised with. Like, when
I started as a teenager to think that I
was called to ministry. Like, my dad's
immediate reaction was like, okay, well, make sure
(11:16):
that you're reading really widely and that you're,
like, taking courses that,
um, challenge your
beliefs.
Don't get yourself cut off from the world. Make sure
that you're staying connected to that.
You don't become part of a Christian bubble. But
(11:36):
it really was a Christian bubble, right?
>> Joelle Kidd (11:39):
Yeah, absolutely. That's really. That's great
that your dad said that to you. I think that's really
important. Yeah. Like, my, like, kind
of quippy thing is, I feel like. I don't know if
you heard this a lot, uh, in your corner
of the church, but growing up, I feel
like I often heard this phrase that you're supposed to be in the world,
(11:59):
but not of it.
Um, and to me, the
Christian pop culture bubble is really that
you're of the world somehow, but you're not in it. You're so
separated from the real world, but they're taking
on all the trappings of, like,
secular pop culture and a lot of the sort of
toxic messages that you're taught
(12:21):
outside of that, uh, bubble, too.
>> Martha Tatarnic (12:22):
So, yeah, Yeah, I definitely want to
dig into that a little bit more because I was quite
fascinated by some of those dynamics
and again, comparing them to what I grew up with.
But, gosh, there was even, like, a part
toward the end where you talk about, like, Christian
comedians and this worry that, like,
maybe, like, you couldn't be funny as.
(12:46):
As a Christian. Like, that Christians
actually couldn't have a good sense of humor. Like,
I had no idea that there were. That that
was a thing.
>> Joelle Kidd (12:57):
Yeah. Even wanting to write novels and write
fiction as a kid, I was so worried that, like,
could I do that? Because all the Christian
novels I read were so.
Or I didn't really want to write about, you know,
Christianity in fiction.
>> Martha Tatarnic (13:16):
Like, were you getting exposed to some other things
through your family as well, or
were those years where you were just pretty much
like locked in?
>> Joelle Kidd (13:28):
I definitely was. My family wasn't very
um, tapped into that. Even
uh, even reading the book. I gave the book to my
parents to read before, um, before it went
into copy editing and they were kind
of shocked that they didn't even know half this stuff existed.
They weren't really paying the pop
(13:48):
culture stuff. Um, but so most of it came
through my school and my friends at school.
Um, but yeah, I think
I valued my parents um,
influence more because I think uh,
the books and the music and movies
that they ah, showed me or
(14:10):
that I watched with them, um, were
the ones that I actually related to a lot more than these
Christian media that I
consumed with my friends.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:21):
Yeah, well, okay, so that kind of like
that gets into what I found to be
such a page turner about the book. Like I
found it extremely absorbing because it was
this mix of like
dynamics that I found very relatable
but like pop
(14:42):
culture that I wasn't familiar
with at all. And I think that you
do such a good job
like really um,
compelling description
of what it, like what
growing up feels like and what growing up feels like when you're
(15:02):
trying to fit in and like when you feel like you're a bit
out of step with the people around you and
you're trying to make sense of um,
what messages you're getting and how
you fit into that. Like all of that is
extremely relatable. Like I, you
know, I, I know about that stuff,
um, like friendship
(15:25):
and, and in crowds
and out crowds and you know, all that stuff
insecurity, like just
navigating how you figure out who you are
and then experiencing within
all of that these places of real
conflict and tension as you
(15:47):
tried to fit yourself into
a narrative and beliefs
that actually
didn't feel like they fit for you.
Um. What would you like describe as some of the
positives of your faith
upbringing?
>> Joelle Kidd (16:07):
Yeah, um, there were certainly a lot of
positives I think. I mean I mentioned my
family, um, being sort of on the outside of
this Christian um, bubble in a
way. Uh, I come from a very close
knit family, um, coming
from the Mennonite church. And
(16:27):
uh, I had a lot of I think really good
experiences in Mennonite communities.
Um, whether that's my grandparents
little house church that they ran,
um, or the small community church we attended when I
was growing up. Um, I always
related pretty strongly to
the values that were being taught there about like
(16:48):
justice and peace, um, and community
and that sense of closeness
that um, comes with Like a small group like
that where you're having church potlucks every week.
Um, and I think there were good things
to be found in the school I attended also. It was, it was
also a pretty small school. And so
(17:11):
there were definitely, um. There was like
a comfort in that. And um,
even though in retrospect I don't really
agree or appreciate with a lot of the
teachings I was given there, um, it's
an institution. So, uh, it's full of
people. And on a person to person level, there
(17:32):
were certainly a lot of really kind and caring,
um, teachers and friends
that I made there. So, um,
yeah, there was a kind of, I guess, comfort and
um, sense of
belonging in some ways that
faith, uh, gave me when I
(17:52):
was growing up.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:54):
Do you have, like, have some of those
friendships endured kind of past
the leaving of that
tradition?
>> Joelle Kidd (18:05):
Um, I have one
really close friend still that I grew up going to
school with and one more like,
see, uh, each other every so often kind of friend.
Um, so I'm down to two,
but it was a very small school, so percentage wise
it's pretty good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:22):
But yeah, yeah, I think that's better
than I'm doing from high school.
>> Joelle Kidd (18:29):
That's good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:31):
Um, like, has that friend read the book,
the Close Friend? Do they?
>> Joelle Kidd (18:36):
Not yet. Uh, yeah, I'll need to mail it to
her.
>> Martha Tatarnic (18:41):
It'll be interesting to like, see what her
reaction is and um,
what she recognizes there.
>> Joelle Kidd (18:49):
Yeah, I think that's something interesting about those
lifelong friendships because, yeah, she
and I have also. And maybe this is another
positive of growing up, like in a religious environment.
I think, um, the kind of friendships
I have with people that I met. After I
graduated high school, I spent a little bit of
(19:09):
time working for a Christian missions organization.
And, um, again, an environment
where I felt a little at odds politically
and philosophically with a lot of people. But
the friendships I made there also
feel really strong because
you're talking about such deep,
(19:29):
uh, important things and you're
really sharing like, something that you don't necessarily
share in your life with other friends, other
friendships that you just sort of, um,
meet, you know, in the wild. So.
Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:47):
Yeah, I think that's insightful.
Um, I mean, you certainly
don't, uh, shy away from delving into, uh,
the stuff that was quite damaging in
your faith upbringing. Do you want to just share
some of those notes?
>> Joelle Kidd (20:03):
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think the
most damaging parts were
really focused around like, shame.
And um,
there's been more and more research and writing
in Recent years about um, the
what they call a purity culture of the 90s and
(20:24):
2000s, um, which I think
continues even now. But that felt like a very
concentrated moment for it, uh, where
evangelical pop culture and a lot of
um, conservative messaging really focused
heavily on sexual purity,
um, but also like I mentioned before, like
purity of your thoughts and this need
(20:46):
to like sort of reach a kind of perfection to be
acceptable, um, as a Christian.
Uh, and so yeah, those kinds of teachings really
gave me a lot of shame about my body, my identity.
Um, and yeah, as I write in the
book, I identify as queer, but I really
suppressed that part of myself for a long time because
(21:07):
of those teachings.
And I think even the sort of like the
threats of hell or
um, the sort of punitive
uh, way of talking about Christianity really plays into
that shame based thing also.
Um, yeah, and there, there were also some
(21:29):
harmful messages I absorbed about women, about
queer people, um,
some really like politically
conservative readings of the Bible that I was taught,
um, that I think feed into like
a colonial, like white supremacist
history of Christianity. Ah,
(21:49):
that I think now I see a lot of. Even when I
was working for the um, for the Anglican
Church, I saw a lot of people doing a lot of work to unlearn and
um, decolonize those aspects of
Christianity. But in my experience when I was growing
up, that was very much still
entrenched in what we were taught. Mhm.
>> Martha Tatarnic (22:10):
Yeah, for sure.
Um, it's, I guess
not just that there's
perfectionism, but there's such a
narrow understanding of what
perfect looks like and yes,
um, yeah, how you like need to fit into
that. I was really struck.
(22:31):
And again this goes to the
relatable versus foreign parts of
what you were describing in the book. I was
just really struck by
um,
the shame that you talk about.
And like regular listeners of this
(22:52):
podcast will know that I grew up like thoroughly
mainline Christian,
um,
but I also grew
up with lots of um,
messages of shame around my
body. Um, like secular
mainstream culture tells
(23:14):
us lots of unhelpful things about
sex and body image and
um, the role of men and women and
blame about sex and how we're supposed to think about our
bodies. Like you don't need to be part
of a, ah, fundamentalist evangelical
church to absorb
(23:34):
really bad messages about like
you know, how, how we're
supposed to look and how we're supposed to act and
how we're supposed to feel
inadequate. You know, like I, I
think that we can all grow up uh,
feeling like there are impossible standards
(23:54):
that we can never actually attain.
Um,
interestingly, like I grew up in a
very small town in rural Ontario.
And um, in the
town that I grew up in, like there were was not one
out person in my whole high school. Like
(24:15):
it was in many ways a very
conservative town.
Um, and yet
it was actually in my church that I
uh, that I really considered
um, LGBTQ rights.
And um,
(24:36):
like it was from my Christian
perspective that like I argued in my law class
that ah, that um,
same sex couples should be able to adopt for
example. Like that was
like an opinion that stood really at odds
with the secular culture that I grew
up in. Um, and
(24:59):
in many ways, like, I think that's what
uh, excited me about being a Christian was
the sense that our Christian tradition could have
ways of clapping back to the toxic messages
that we absorb and saying something different
and like challenging the status quo.
Um, and yet
(25:21):
like as you said in the Anglican Church as well,
and certainly like in Christianity
in general, um,
Christianity can just totally get
co opted into saying the same toxic
things, maybe with different packaging.
Um, like
(25:42):
what would be sort of
your imaginings about
Christianity as an
alternative versus just one
more um, place where you
get the same old messages of guilt and
inadequacy.
>> Joelle Kidd (26:03):
Yeah, I mean I love that
that was the catalyst for you because I think there is
a real um,
possibility there.
It really still appeals to me, um, thinking about
the stories um, that I read
of the gospels, stories of Jesus that are
(26:25):
these sort of radical um,
reimaginings, um, they are
sort of upending the system, uh,
or like those teachings that really dig
uh, further beneath the surface. And I think
um, that's where I see a lot of possibility
for Christianity is to
(26:47):
sort of undermine these systems that are in power
in the wider world.
Um, I
think, I guess one of
the main theses that I
came away with after writing the book is that
I just don't think there should be Christian pop
culture. Like this sort of marriage of uh,
(27:10):
religion and capitalism I think is
where those messages start to get
co opted and things start to really
um, solidify in an
unhelpful way. Um, because I
think a lot of what gets commoditized is
uh,
(27:31):
um, not there to help
everyone. It's there to keep one group
in power at the top.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:38):
Um, interesting.
>> Joelle Kidd (27:39):
So yeah, when you bring that
kind of hierarchy into religion, I think
uh, it's not what was taught
in the Bible, I think.
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (27:52):
Can you just like describe some of
that like
capitalistic infiltration of
the culture you grew up in? Because it really was of
A moment, wasn't it, where like there were big bucks
available in like Christian
media of a whole variety of things.
>> Joelle Kidd (28:13):
Yeah, it's such an interesting time to me.
Um, one thing that really
interested me about that period was this
sort of mainstream crossover at the time,
um, that happened in the
2000s. Uh, you had like
pop stars wearing purity rings.
Um, and
(28:35):
the rise of like
um, some laws
that changed in the states around the late 90s, early
2000s meant that Christian groups could lobby
quite uh, with no
holds barred lobbying, um, in the
political sphere. And so you had the rise of this like
issues voter that got George Bush into
(28:57):
office. That was really like this
fundamentalist Christian worldview.
I um, was shocked at how much money was poured into abstinence only
education, for instance in that time
period. Um, so yeah, there was a weird
marriage of like the, the
secular and the Christian at the time.
Um, and also it was just
(29:20):
a high point for like,
for pop culture to make money.
Um, right before the Internet came in
and undermined a whole bunch of industries.
It was possible to be making a lot of money through
book sales and through CD record
companies and um,
(29:40):
uh, independent movie distribution.
And so, um, yeah, I think
that's part of it. And part of what was interesting is
that um, you had these Christian bookstores
that were these hubs of all this Christian media,
um, that were actually really making a lot of money
in that time period. And about 10 years later they were all,
(30:00):
almost all um, bankrupt. So
it was kind of a concentrated point of all that culture
being distributed. Um,
and one thing I write about a little bit too is that ah,
ah, a lot of the production of that media was happening in
the United States. Um, and then it was being
exported and me in the
(30:23):
middle of Canada, I was reading stuff
coming from, focused on the family that I didn't even know
that's, you know, that was who was printing the
magazine I was reading. Um, and none of my
teachers and my parents looked at it. They
just thought it's Christian, it must be good. And
lots of messages were getting slipped in under
(30:44):
the, under the wire.
>> Martha Tatarnic (30:47):
Yeah, well,
um,
there were a couple of um, points
of intersection that uh, definitely
like did infiltrate
like my experience back in the early aughts
as well. Even though lots of what you describe I
didn't know about at all. But like it was such a big deal
(31:10):
when Mel Gibson did the Passion of the Christ.
And I remember like all of the front
pages of People and so on for a
while, um, were all kind of
talking about like is Christianity suddenly Cool. Like,
all of these big stars are, like,
suddenly vocal about their faith.
(31:32):
Um, so, like,
it. It did have this, like,
interesting back and forth.
I wonder, like, now, uh, you know,
as you say, like, there isn't the same kind of money to be
made in, like, book sales and,
um, like
(31:52):
CD sales and stuff now. But,
uh. But there's still lots of money to be made in
Christianity. Right? Like, is there any
connection between, like, what you were
growing up with and, like, the mega
churches of today and kind of the
celebrity pastors? The
influence, like Chris, there's sort of like Christian
(32:13):
influencers now, right?
>> Joelle Kidd (32:15):
Yeah, Yeah. I kind of think that's
where the gold rush is now, I think.
>> Martha Tatarnic (32:21):
The gold rush, yes.
>> Joelle Kidd (32:24):
Social media.
Yeah, there are a lot of, um,
fundamentalist influencers out there.
Um, tangential to that.
There's been a lot of, uh, talk
about this movement of trad wives,
women who stay home and
(32:45):
showcase, um, this traditional vision of marriage and
motherhood. Um, and
yeah, a lot of that is, I think, very similar. It's sort of
repackaging, um, these
same ideas into a new format.
Um, and even
though it's, in a way, it feels a little more
(33:06):
like, uh, grassroots because
it's a person putting themselves out there, I think it
still has, uh. I think
they still get kind of locked into a
cycle of having to perform that,
um, that might also be
pretty damaging in the long run.
(33:27):
Um, but, yeah, I think also more
recent things like Hillsong Church or,
um. Yeah, just sort of like
megachurches that act almost
like big franchise corporations or
something, like expanding over the world and,
um, selling music or selling,
(33:48):
uh, or doing podcasts or
whatever. Um, yeah, it's. The
Christian pop culture machine is still going
strong.
>> Martha Tatarnic (33:57):
Yeah, it's still going strong. Like, they have figured out
how to adapt. I interviewed Mike
Cosper a couple of months ago who did
that podcast on the rise and fall of Mars Hill.
>> Joelle Kidd (34:10):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (34:10):
And he's written a couple of books about all of those
dynamics as well. And just
kind of the really dangerous dynamics of
ideological thinking that can
get locked into
a, uh, message that
seemingly seems like it should be good. And so people
(34:30):
are kind of willing to overlook
a lot of stuff that is clearly
at odds with that message because
they want the message to succeed.
Yeah, I. I
think I was. I just kept
feeling like as I was reading your book that
(34:51):
there. There are ramifications
of all of this pop culture
that, you know, seemingly.
Um. Okay, like, so what if
there are movies about, you know, people,
um, turning their lives around because of Jesus
or Like books about the rapture or
(35:13):
um, purity
rings or, you know, like,
Jesus is my boyfriend albums or whatever.
Like, it doesn't
maybe feel like it's that serious, but it
does feel like there are a lot of
political ramifications of
(35:33):
the stuff that was
circulating like 20, 25 years ago.
Like what, what felt like timely to
you about revisiting all of this
part of your life?
>> Joelle Kidd (35:47):
Yeah, absolutely. It felt, uh, felt
too timely.
>> Martha Tatarnic (35:51):
Um, too timely.
>> Joelle Kidd (35:52):
Yeah. I pitched the book in
2023 and spent a year writing it. And
while I was researching and writing, I just couldn't believe,
like how. I don't know if I realized how relevant
it would feel. Um,
and uh, yeah, not only
the politics and the themes that
(36:13):
I think are sort of like popping up again and again, but,
um, even the same people I'd be
reading. There's a great book, um, Marcy
McDonald's the Armageddon Factor about
Christian nationalism in Canada in the 2000s.
And so I'm reading that and up pops a young
Pierre Poliev. Or I'm reading
about right wing movements in the States. And
(36:35):
um, the laws are being made by Mike
Huckabee, who now has like a big
um, right wing talk, ah, show.
And um, yeah, it's the same
people, same players.
Um, when you dig a little deeper past the
surface of these pop culture things, I mean, I think
um, Left behind is like a great example
(36:57):
where growing up I thought of that as a kind of,
um, mildly terrifying but kind of
silly book. Uh,
that was everywhere. It was like being sold at
Costco. Everyone was reading it, but I didn't
really see it as having any political import. And when
I was researching the book, I didn't realize that the
(37:18):
writer of that novel,
uh, he has huge political influence. He,
um, was instrumental in a lot of
conservative political,
anti LGBT legislation.
Um, and he uh,
was on um, the
(37:40):
National Evangelical Council or something.
He kind of like codified this belief in the
rapture that is laid out in the book as
part of the theology, uh,
of that denomination or that segment of
Christianity, um, which is so much more
recent than I thought. So. Yeah,
(38:00):
and he, I mean even earlier in the 70s,
he and his wife like wrote a book about
Christian marriage that has a lot of really troubling
complementarianism and um,
misogyny and purity stuff in it.
Uh, that was really influential. So, yeah, even
just that one guy, his trail is a lot
(38:20):
longer than I realized.
Um, but yeah, it feels relevant in the
sense too of, uh, Trump
was selling $60 Bibles with
his name on them during the campaign. And
um, J.D. vance is making speeches
that sound a lot like Mark Driscoll sermons. And
(38:42):
um, yeah, everything feels like it's sort of
coming back to roost a little
bit, um, in my mind,
ah, my, like the generation
that grew up with those things is sort of my Generation's
in our 30s and 40s now,
I guess. I think J.D. vance is 40, so he probably
(39:02):
grew up listening to Christian music of the same time
period I did. Um, and
yeah, it feels like a little bit of that,
a little bit of backlash to some more
socially progressive years, um, all
kind of combining into this strange
soup.
>> Martha Tatarnic (39:21):
Yeah, strange soup indeed. And
I mean Trump has been elected for
his second term, um,
both times around. I understand that that
evangelical voting bloc was
essential in
um, in his election.
(39:43):
Um, I'm not sure that we have quite the same
political dynamics here. I'm sure
that there are voting blocs,
um, in Canada as
well, but uh, I'm not sure
that they have quite the same influence. He needed
to lock into that
(40:04):
um, voting block in order to have a chance
of being elected.
>> Joelle Kidd (40:09):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You can
really see, um, like the
candidates in the states have to cater to that
group. You can tell. I
mean, it's like Donald Trump
doesn't look like any Christian I grew up with, but
he still manages to win people
(40:31):
over.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:33):
Well, and I mean, again, like,
I do spend a lot of
time kind of puzzling around
um, evangelical fundamentalist
teaching and culture because there are
aspects of it that I don't understand at all.
But you know, you noted like right at ah, the outset
that there was this sense of like every word of the Bible
(40:54):
is to be taken like as
seriously as every other word. And I know what you mean
by that, but. But it's also
like, not true. Right, because
there's whole parts around justice
and care for the poor and
providing food for people
(41:16):
that is really
neglected in favor of sort
of single issue focus around
ah, um, uh, like in
the States, abortion for example. Right.
Like that, that becomes the
issue that gets raised so far above
(41:38):
like any of the other,
um, like words of the Bible that I
would think we should be taking pretty seriously.
>> Joelle Kidd (41:48):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. A lot
of issues that aren't. Um, I mean
there's so many places in the Bible that just clearly
say take care of the poor. Take care of.
Yeah, the widows and the orphans. And um,
there's not the same clarity around some of these issues
like abortion or
(42:09):
um, yeah, same sex marriage or
what have you, but those become the hot Button
the whole politics of the religion
hinge on um,
yeah. Which again I kind of tend to see as
another way of
where capital flows and
(42:30):
um, ways to consolidate political
power.
>> Martha Tatarnic (42:34):
Yeah, I think that is ultimately
what it is.
Um, I'm interested in
where your faith sits
now. Like, you have worked for the
Anglican Church, you've written a book
that's all about wrestling with the
good, the bad and the ugly of one particular
(42:57):
uh, version of Christian culture.
Like obviously the Christian faith
is alive in you in a
particular way. As in like it's
m. Something that occupies
real estate in your
brain. Um,
(43:17):
maybe rent free. I don't know.
>> Joelle Kidd (43:19):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (43:21):
Um, what is your relationship
with the church now or with the
Christian faith?
>> Joelle Kidd (43:29):
Um, it's hard to say.
I have a pretty uneasy relationship with it. I think
when it comes to church and organized religion I've
kind of
broken up with it a little bit.
Um, I feel like I still have
some faith and some spiritual side of
(43:50):
myself, but I've kind of given up on
the term Christian and
I don't know, I feel really lucky to
have um, had the faith journey
that I've had or like been able to experience a lot of
different sides of Christianity.
Um, and in my adult life I've definitely
(44:11):
found some really beautiful communities of faith that
were aligned with my progressive
lefty politics, politics and uh, accepted
my queerness and read the Bible in
um, non literal, very deep and
thoughtful ways. Um, so I know
those communities exist and I might ah,
(44:31):
someday make my way back to one of them.
I'm not sure. Um,
but yeah, personally I think I just have felt a sense
of being kind of burned one too many times
by the church at large.
And I think a lot of people
share a similar feeling of
(44:52):
in the last few years even thinking
about since Donald Trump's first rise to
power, like the way that
Christianity, um, is sort of in the popular
imagination become this really,
really sort of hate filled, like
nationalistic,
(45:12):
um, right wing
version of itself, um, feels really hard
to deal with because to
consider yourself a part of that community and
even um, you know,
siblings in Christ with people who,
you know, have actual
(45:34):
hatred for people of your identity,
um, it's difficult. I don't think it's
feels good. And so it stopped feeling
like a word I could use for myself.
Um, but yeah, I don't know.
I'm in a real unknowing space
right now. I think after
(45:56):
I went to a spiritual advisor a few years ago and
I think what I learned from talking with him was that after
so Many years growing up in this very black and
white, um, rigid
kind of environment around faith. It felt
really good to be able to say that
I don't need to know right now and I can,
(46:17):
um, live in a little bit of uncertainty.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:21):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of
sense. And that was the sense
I got from your book as well,
is that, uh, like there's not a
closed door because obviously
these are things that, like I said, are
still working away in you and
(46:42):
your processing and so on.
Um, but there's definitely a need for
distance.
>> Joelle Kidd (46:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:52):
Um, like my kids are both
teenagers and it's
interesting when they reflect with me
about all of the,
like, unpacking that they sort of have to do
with their friends when they say that they go to church or that
they're a Christian. Like, like my daughter
especially is sort of like, uh,
(47:14):
yeah, I'm going to church. Like, these are all the things that
doesn't mean. And like,
and like, it's
ah, even my son
who goes to a Roman Catholic high school,
he, you know, tells me that most
of his friends have
(47:36):
a particular sense of what
Christianity means that is very much about
like, um, anti
lgbtq, anti woman,
anti, uh,
climate, um, you
know, like pro
patriarchy. And
(47:57):
um, just like
that they have an extremely negative
view of Christianity. And yeah, we're not,
ah, Christians are not helped by some of
the loudest representations
of what Christianity
supposedly means right now.
(48:17):
Would you have like, any
takeaways that you would like?
We primarily,
um, offer this podcast for
people who are leaders in the church
and trying to figure out how we
navigate like, the
leadership in the church in a world that's
(48:38):
so, uh,
so chaotic
and um, where we are like, dealing with
such tremendous, um,
trends around like, decline in the church
and um, culture wars in the church and
all of those. Like, would you have things that you would
(48:58):
want Christian leaders to hear, think about,
like, in how they minister and how
they minister with young people, but maybe just in how they
like, respond to the world in general. Like, what would you want to
hear from Christian leaders?
>> Joelle Kidd (49:16):
Um, I think
what came. What comes to mind is,
I mean, I talked a little bit about that idea of shame being
um, what I found most damaging
in the church. And I think
the way that kind of was taught to me was
through this, um,
(49:40):
conception of
self that
um, really kind of,
uh, took away my autonomy as a person.
Um, I think
culturally we're much better at this now
with kids than we used to be. But I think it's important
(50:02):
to teach young people um, especially
that they're valued and they have meaning and control over
their own self and they can have boundaries,
um, and connect with their own
emotions and their bodies. Um,
but growing up in the church, I got the message that
nothing I had was my own. It was, uh,
(50:22):
my body and my mind. Everything was a tool for God to
use or a house for God.
Um, and that I think
that idea is like wrapped up in that shame idea
and also something that really persisted in a negative
way into my adulthood.
Um, so that's kind of my woo woo
answer. But I think that like,
(50:44):
teaching people, um,
like self love and to value
themselves rather than,
um, to be
some kind of like,
ah, robot for God to pilot,
um, I think it would be
(51:05):
a much more helpful, ah, tact,
especially for young people.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:12):
Yeah, um, friend of mine
who I've had on this podcast, he talks
about, um, some of the
really young women who were leaders in the
early church and they get,
they get labeled the virgin martyrs.
But he like, reframes them as women
(51:32):
of self possession, which I just love.
Like, women of self possession that, like,
that there was like this robust
alternative for women in the early
church, especially to
defy like, gender conventions, to
not be a piece of property passed
(51:53):
from man to man, but like to have
a voice and to stand up and to
like, um, bear witness and
like defy convention
like that. Uh, self
possession, I think is
a teaching that we can see across
(52:14):
scripture and across the tradition.
Um, but maybe we could
boost that up a little bit in our
teachings.
>> Joelle Kidd (52:24):
Yeah, yeah, I love that phrase. Self possession.
>> Martha Tatarnic (52:27):
Yeah. Okay, well,
um, why don't we take a break and we'll
come back for some closing
questions. Um, and
yeah, um,
thank you for helping us walk through
some of the points of your book. There's so much more to
(52:48):
get into. And so I really hope that our
listeners will pick up a copy because,
um, there's many parts of it
that we haven't been able to touch on. But I'm glad that we
got to talk through some of the points. So
we'll come back in a few minutes.
>> Joelle Kidd (53:03):
Thank you.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:07):
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm with
Joelle Kidd today and we are
going to wrap up with our closing
questions. Rapid fire, that we ask all of our
guests. And we do always tell our
guests that you don't have to take these questions
super seriously. It can, uh, be
as light or as serious as you
(53:29):
want. It's up to you. So Joelle,
if you were pope for the day, what
would, uh, that 24 hours look like. What would
be the top priorities?
>> Joelle Kidd (53:42):
I don't really know how to answer this one.
I mean, am I allowed to say, let women be
priests? Is that in the Catholic Church? Is that
allowed? But, um, you are totally.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:53):
I mean, you're Pope, so you can say whatever you want.
You're in charge. That's kind of the takeaway.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:01):
Yeah, I think I would, uh, institute some,
uh, uh,
DEI reforms into Christianity.
Uh, it's funny because I asked my partner this because I was like,
what would you say to this? And they
went, I would declare myself Pope
tomorrow too. So I was like, you can't do that.
I would wish for more wishes.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:23):
I know. I was just going to say that's totally the genie in the
bottle.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:28):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:28):
I want more wishes.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:31):
I don't know.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:32):
I mean, you can say that too. Like, I would use my day
to make myself Pope for the rest of time.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:41):
I don't know if I would want that power.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:44):
Yeah, it might get old.
>> Joelle Kidd (54:46):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (54:48):
Okay. Well, I think that, um, the
ordination of women or some
DEI policies would be a good use of
that day.
Is there a theologian, a historical Christian
figure who you would want to meet,
bring back to life, have supper with?
>> Joelle Kidd (55:10):
I have been a little bit,
um, obsessed recently with,
um, Simone Weill, the
French philosopher and Christian
mystic. And I've been,
I have, ah, her book Gravity and Grace on my night
table right now. I've been slowly reading. Um,
and she's such a strange,
(55:33):
complicated person, but her writing really speaks to me,
so that's who I would definitely bring back. And
also, just as her as a
fervent socialist, I would love to hear her
thoughts on our current political
landscape.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:49):
Yeah, that would definitely be
a, ah, dinner conversation worth having.
>> Joelle Kidd (55:55):
Yeah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:58):
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?
>> Joelle Kidd (56:03):
Um, it feels like we're in a very
historical moment.
Um, so I feel like a lot will be
remembered. Um,
I think we're moving
really fast technologically and we're also
destroying the planet at a very quick
rate. Uh, it just feels like everything is shifting a
(56:25):
lot. And I think in
future times,
um, that, like, hackneyed,
like 2020 pandemic phrase of living
in unprecedented times that just sort of felt like it
never ended. And I feel like this era is going
to be remembered for
(56:45):
being uncertain and unprecedented.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:48):
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we can
guarantee that if there is a future,
historians will be talking about this
time, this current time
and what was going on. Uh,
do you have a hope for the future of Christianity?
>> Joelle Kidd (57:09):
Um, I hope
Christianity. I hope it
becomes, um, softer is the word
that comes to mind. I hope that
the Christianity of the future is, like, less
militant and, um, less
hierarchical and more
grassroots and honest. And,
(57:32):
um, I hope, like I've been saying,
that it can kind of divorce itself from
capitalism and that
there are a lot of beautiful streams of
thought in Christianity in,
um, uh, liberation theology
and decolonial Christianity that I hope
(57:53):
just keep gathering force and becoming more
and more prominent in the faith.
>> Martha Tatarnic (57:59):
Yeah, it's interesting that you use the
word softer to,
um, talk about that
picture of what Christianity could be, because there's
also, like, a lot of defiance that
would be needed to be able to
embrace that that way.
Um, like, we're gonna need spines
(58:22):
of steel, for sure.
>> Joelle Kidd (58:24):
Yeah. Yeah, I
guess in the way that, like, water is soft where
it can erode a rock. But.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:35):
That'S good.
>> Joelle Kidd (58:36):
That's really good.
>> Martha Tatarnic (58:38):
Where can people find out more about you, Joelle?
>> Joelle Kidd (58:41):
Um, well, I am. I'm
online. Uh, my website is Joel Kidd dot
com. I have a pretty rare name, so I got.
Got the URL
and, uh, my book Jesus Land is
out, um, August 12th, where you can
find out too much about me, probably.
(59:02):
Um, and I'm not very good at social media, but
I'm on bluesky and Instagram under my name as
well.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:09):
Okay. Well, we always end
with a word of peace, so may God's peace be
with you, Jo.
>> Joelle Kidd (59:17):
Thank you.
>> Loren Richmond (59:25):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get
in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go,
(59:47):
do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.