Professional Christian: Sarah Bereza on how to be fully yourself in public ministry

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dr. Sara
Bariza to the program.
Sarah holds a Ph.D. and a
certificate in feminist theory from Duke
University and has focused her research on
music and theology in American
Christianity. She is the author

(01:05):
of Professional Christian Being Fully Yourself in
the Spotlight of Public Ministry. Sarah
is a lifelong church musician and currently
serves as the director of Music at Grace
United Methodist Church in St. Louis,
Missouri. She shares resources,
including a newsletter at UH Sarah with
an H B E R

(01:28):
E Z A dot com.
A reminder, before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review, and share Future
Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren,
Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com

(01:49):
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the
church. And now to today's
conversation.

>> Loren (02:10):
All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am
Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to be
welcoming Dr. Sara Bereza Thank
you so much for being here. Yeah, great, great,
great. Well, let's begin with
this. Anything, uh, else you want our listeners to know about
you?

>> Sarah (02:28):
Oh, I write a whole bunch. I have three
small children that occupy my time and
music for life. So much music in my life.

>> Loren (02:37):
Okay. Okay, cool. You know, I don't
know. We'll get into this here in a second.
You growing up indefinite Baptist like me.
Spoiler alert for listeners.

>> Sarah (02:47):
Good times.

>> Loren (02:48):
I've been really getting into, like, CCM of late.
Were you allowed to listen to CCM as a kid?

>> Sarah (02:54):
Oh, absolutely not. Um, um, in fact, my. My
doctoral dissertation, um, dealt with theologies of
music in a way. It was me processing my
childhood, um, as a musical person. All the. The
theological reasons, the religious beliefs around, why that
wasn't allowed, why it wasn't just that, um, secular music
for the most part, wasn't allowed, but that Christian, uh, contemporary music
wasn't allowed. Um, and so if. If you're really,

(03:16):
uh, Want some good nighttime reading
that'll put you to sleep. There's like 400 something pages of that
up on ProQuest. Go read my dissertation. A lot
of detail.

>> Loren (03:26):
I'll have to have you send me that because that sounds right up my alley.

>> Sarah (03:28):
I mean there's a lot of good stuff there, but it's also like, you know,
academic.

>> Loren (03:32):
Yeah, I mean, uh, I grew up Independent
Baptist and I was the shade of
independence where it was sort of
like ambiguous about whether it was
okay or not. CCM type music. So
anyway, let's get into that. Uh, share if
you would, about your faith journey. Uh,
as growing up an infinite Baptist, I.

>> Sarah (03:54):
So I, yes, I grew up independent Fundamental Bible believing
Baptist. Um, and for my particular family and
if anyone has like interacted with independent fundamentalists,
like that's uh, you know, each church is its own little
island in a way. Um, so there's a lot of, you
know, how many flavors could you have? That's how many corrections there are. And
so my particular variety was, um, if we think in

(04:14):
terms of denominational surrogates, it was more aligned
with um, Northland Baptist Bible College.

>> Loren (04:20):
Okay.

>> Sarah (04:21):
Somewhat aligned with Bob Jones. I didn't, for the most of my childhood,
I didn't have a Bob Jones style, um,
education, but that's actually where I went for my undergraduate degree.
Um, but it was in that particular vein and it
wasn't in the King James only vein. Um,
my family was very emphatically not King James
only, um, and was pretty, uh,
emphatically racially inclusive. So that limits.

(04:43):
So we were not in the King James only churches. We weren't in churches that
wouldn't allow black people to worship.
Um, so that was like my
particular, my particular variety of fundamentalism
growing up. And I, as a musical kid,
um, for a long time
thought, well, this is not where I'm going to land.
And. But also I grew up in a bubble. I

(05:05):
was homeschooled. I went to a very small church. My world was extremely
small. Um, and so I didn't really know what was out there.
And I also, um, felt a lot of love
for God and a lot of love for my people. And in the world that I
grew up in, it was, well, you're either fundamentalist
Baptist or you're a godless
atheist Presbyterian. You know,
like these, these are the two options. And so growing up I was like, well,

(05:27):
clearly there have to be more options. But I didn't have an opportunity,
opportunity to see more options for the most
part. Um, so When I
was in college, I did a little bit of
exploring. I went to Bob Jones University, which was
not so much now, but at the time, you know, pretty clearly
fundamentalist and um, it's own kind of
bubble, but, but more, more uh,

(05:49):
permissive in a way. I was allowed to wear pants at Bob Jones,
unlike in my childhood.

>> Loren (05:53):
Wow.

>> Sarah (05:54):
Um, and so like it was in many ways had more
freedom than my childhood home. And so I
began exploring Eastern Orthodoxy. And then as a graduate
student I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, which I still feel
a lot of, um, kinship for. Um, but
over the years, this is now like I m graduated
from college about 15 years ago. Um,

(06:14):
over the years I have worked extensively in the
mainline as a church musician and I have
been working, working in mainline churches and
evangelical churches um, since I was 11.
So this has been the bulk of my
life, um, working in churches as a
musician. And um,
I now would first define myself as a progressive

(06:36):
Christian and not by a particular
denominational label. And that has largely
had to do with um, having children. I had my first child eight years
ago and eventually realized that
while I could be at home in a denomination that
was more conservative than I personally was,
I couldn't raise my children in a denomination
that didn't ordain women, that didn't actively and

(06:59):
affirmatively welcome trans and gay people and queer
people. If I could be there, you know,
advocating for change on the inside, I couldn't raise my own children there.
And so my whole family has experienced a shift in the last
decade. Um, where the
churches where we personally choose to worship, not
just work, but to worship, um,
are m more progressively identified than,

(07:21):
um, than by other factors. That would be the first factor for us.

>> Loren (07:24):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

>> Sarah (07:25):
That's where I've ended up, at least at this point in life.

>> Loren (07:28):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I've got to say I'm kind of scandalized
as a former Independent Baptist, that Bob
Jones is, was not
considered that
conservative. Did I hear you right?

>> Sarah (07:41):
It was considered conservative enough
for my family. That's why I ended up there. But it was
more, um,
there was more openness to certain things than in my
own particular family. Okay,
so for instance, like going back to the pants. Like, well, I had to wear
pantyhose when I was at Bob Jones, which is hilarious to

(08:01):
me to think about. Um, but I was also allowed to wear
pants, um, you know, to go to the store or something. Like I owned
pairs of pants. Whereas in my childhood
home that was not, um, allowed.

>> Loren (08:12):
Okay, okay, fair enough. Yeah, see I guess my
childhood in my, like when, when
I was young and I, I think I'm a little older than you. Like
my dad tried to do like the no pants thing for my sisters,
but my mom was just like, no, there's too much work.

>> Sarah (08:26):
Good for your mom. Good for your mom.

>> Loren (08:29):
And then, uh, I'm a, I'm a graduate
of. Thank goodness they have now since
renamed for my resume sake. But it was
Baptist Bible College, Springfield, Missouri.
And then. But certainly like around.
Growing up mostly here, around Denver, like Bob Jones,
Pensacola. Those were the colleges

(08:50):
a lot of my contemporaries would go to
from church. So what
would he think is, see, uh. And
I laugh because again, a few years
ago my alma mater made the switch
to a more relaxed dress code and I
am still scandalized seeing students

(09:10):
pictures of wearing jeans and shorts
and whatnot because we had to wear,
or at least as a, as a, as a man,
we had to wear shirt and tie to class. Oh
yeah, women had to wear college experience. I think they had to also
wear, you know, a skirt and pantyhose or some kind
of leg covering, I guess.

>> Sarah (09:30):
Mhm, mhm. Very interesting stuff. Designed
to be like a, um, business code.

>> Loren (09:35):
Right.

>> Sarah (09:35):
Which is hilarious to me, um,
these days. But you know,
it's funny though because like, those are the, to me those are the easy things
to talk about because they are on
the, they're on the surface and they're kind of funny.
Can you believe I had to wear pantyhose? Can you believe they tried to blah,
blah, you know, whatever the things are. Can you believe?

(09:55):
Um, and there's so much
more under the surface than that. Um, and especially
for me as a young person, I was,
um, 17 when I started college and
I wanted so much to love God and I wanted
so much to love God's people
and like thought of myself as, you know, a
good person, someone who really, you know, truly cared about other

(10:17):
people. And the system that I was in took
so much advantage of that because I was kind and I was trusting and in many
ways very, very naive. Um, but that
system said, well, but here's what it is to be good. Here's. Here
is what godliness looks like. And so for me
as you know, a really young teenager,
um, that is something that

(10:38):
I had to struggle with for years. Like really, this is, this is what
godliness is. This is what it means to be a
Christian in, in that kind of performative way.
In this, um, in this way and especially for as, as a woman,
um, the way those dress codes were um, very much,
um, emblematic of purity culture and restrictions
around women's bodies. M. There's so

(10:58):
much under the surface. But of course, like, when I'm just like, you know, chit chatting
with people who've never heard about, you know, where I grew up, I'm like, oh, yeah, it was
just, you know, it was. It was weird, it was
wild, it was crazy pants, it was bananas. And I just kind of like,
laughing, move on. Because, like, who needs to unpack all of
that, um, you know, in the
potluck or whatever? Like, I'm like, I don't. I don't need to have these conversations.

>> Loren (11:18):
Right, right.

>> Sarah (11:19):
But it's. There's so much. There's so much more underneath that,
like, can you believe we had to work a pantyhose? Can you believe they made us
wear ties? You know, we weren't allowed to have, you know, whatever with
our hair? Like, yeah, it's wild.

>> Loren (11:31):
Yeah. We don't have to go. We could probably spend the whole episode just
talking about recovering from fundamentalist culture.
I'm just thinking, like, one of the things that drove me
crazy as a
young man in Bible college was
how, I mean, it
was something that frustrated me, but also seemed incredulous to

(11:52):
me was how much. How
much expectations were put upon women. And also,
conversely, like young men, it was just like, it was just
constantly boys will be boys thing.
So I can only imagine, you know, what
it might have been like to have to live in that culture with
that kind of burden, seeing it just from the

(12:13):
other side of, like, man, there's a bunch of
idiot boys here. Why are we just constantly getting away
with being stupid?

>> Sarah (12:21):
Yep, that was my, uh. I have several brothers,
and one of them, uh, is two years younger than me. Two
years younger in school. And so we overlapped in college.
Um, and it was just mind blowing to
me how different his college
experience was than mine. Um, and we also,
you know, different personalities and all that kind of stuff.

(12:41):
Um, but just such a
different understanding of, like,
I mean, the pressures that we
felt, um, and the potential for, like, um,
getting in trouble. Like, I mean, I was the most, like,
pristine, good little girl. And I
always felt like, oh, God, something bad is going to happen. Um,

(13:02):
even. Even as I was, um. And I, you know, I
had multiple roommates kicked out while I was there. Um, and.
But I always felt like, you know, something is going to happen. Even though
I was, you know, the model
student.

>> Loren (13:14):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (13:15):
In. In all the ways. Um, it just was always.
It was always present there that, like, you could
have your life blow up if you. If you just stepped in the
wrong way.

>> Loren (13:25):
Yeah, boy, let's not.
Yeah. I'm feeling some things here.

>> Sarah (13:31):
Yeah.

>> Loren (13:32):
Uh, I want to. Before we get. We
do need to talk about your book here, but.

>> Sarah (13:37):
Yeah, I mean, that. That too.

>> Loren (13:38):
Like, I feel like I'm just processing here.
I. In your book, you write about
and m. For folks and for folks who may not be
familiar with, like. And I think this
happens. I think this is a practice in evangelical culture,
but certainly in, like, the
fundamentalist Baptist culture. This thing of
every head bowed, every eye closed, and

(14:00):
I can't. Preachers, they could
just roll it off the tongue. I struggle to even say it
right there, but every head bowed, every head closed, and it was just like
no one looking around. You knew what to do.
And I think it was like, only the worst people were actually
looking around. But you write in this book, this really thing
that just shocked and scandalized

(14:21):
me, but should not surprise me. He said that
as, uh, someone who's playing the piano, pastors would
sometimes say, I see those hands, and there'd be no hands. And
I'm just shocked by that.

>> Sarah (14:31):
I know. And I have a good friend who grew up in a
similar world. His was a little bit more Pensacola leaning, um,
but similar world. And I asked him the same thing. And we feel like we
couldn't remember the name because we were both like, literally children, uh,
doing these services. We, um, both started as middle school, Middle
school students, um, but we were like, oh,
yeah, that. That one evangelist, we couldn't remember his name, but we're

(14:52):
like, he would do this all the time. And, like,
I just so. So, like, going back into, like,
thinking about, like, oh, you know, those silly, silly rules, you know,
controlling people's, you know, what are they going to wear? How is their
hair going to be. Um. But I feel like that is a similar type of
move where you tell everyone, here's how their
hairstyle. You have to behave. And, like, there's nothing the matter with, like,

(15:12):
closing your eyes and bowing your
head and praying. Like, there's nothing the matter with that. But the
performance of, uh, being in sync with everyone else. We are
all going to do this now. That is such a safe thing
to do. It is such a, um, being in community with
people to do that kind of thing. I'm a choir director is, uh, one of
my main things that I do. And I work so

(15:33):
hard to make a safe space for my choir so that they
can feel safe to then breathe
together to do These actions together because
that grows out of community. And
the work of that type of altar call is
in many ways like taking advantage of that human
desire for connection to all be

(15:53):
together to do the thing and not. You don't want to be that one person
who's like sticking out for most people. I mean some people do, but most
people, they want to follow the social norms, they want to be part
of this. But then they
are potentially in a very manipulative kind of
place. They're in a place where to be acting out, to do
something different is perceived as really rude.

(16:14):
Um, even though they're being manipulated in that, in
that particular spiritual space. Um, it's,
it's um, it's, it's such a
shameful thing in my, in my opinion to take take advantage of people that
way. Um, but it's, it's really, it can be really
common and it gets. Actually the things I wrote about in my book about
um, the power that we have as um,
professional Christians and um, to the power to influence and the power

(16:36):
for people to listen to us when we
talk because we have the microphone and I'm not a
clergy person but in many cases we have like the
marker of you should listen to this person.
M. And that is a huge power that we have.
And we can't just be using that
willy nilly, um, or to our own benefit or um,

(16:57):
to spiritually manipulate people. Um, just because we can.
Just because that is um, a
possibility that we have with our power.

>> Loren (17:05):
Yeah, yeah. It's a great transition. To talk about the book.
I do want to mention, I'm not sure if you've seen
this. There's an author, J. Michael Jordan. I have an
interview with him, probably will release a couple
before yours here. He talks a lot about in
evangelical spaces, the problems with using
anxiety basically to stimulate

(17:25):
what he calls.

>> Sarah (17:27):
Look into that.

>> Loren (17:28):
Yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah (17:28):
Oh, uh, that's interesting.

>> Loren (17:29):
Recommended. But anyway.

>> Sarah (17:31):
Michael Jordan.

>> Loren (17:32):
Yeah. Uh, let's
dive into the topic of your book
and Sarah is the author of Professional
Being Fully Yourself in the Spotlight of Public
Ministry. But I want to start with this
question because you ask it yourself in
the book and I think it's perfect. What is
it about being a professional Christian

(17:54):
that makes it so hard to be ourselves?

>> Sarah (17:57):
Mhm. Mhm. That is a great
question. I want to back up a little bit and just talk about how I understand
the word professional Christian because some people say like, oh well you know,
we're not professionals. We're called to this.

>> Loren (18:07):
Right.

>> Sarah (18:08):
I understand that kind of like in A really, um, a
really simple way, which is, um, someone whose job relies on their being a
Christian. Um, and that you. And you can't do that job
unless you are a Christian, um, or
unless your church identifies you as a Christian. Sometimes it gets kind of blurry with
some church staff in some churches. But this idea of
like, well, to do this job. Well, to do this, you are

(18:28):
being paid in part because you are a Christian.

>> Loren (18:31):
Yep.

>> Sarah (18:32):
Um, and when you are in those types of
jobs, which include clergy jobs, but also include lots of church
staff jobs, it includes lots of nonprofit jobs working for
Christian schools, working for Christian
universities. Um, like it's not just
a pastor. Um, it's a much bigger
constellation. Um, there are

(18:52):
lots of structural things that make it difficult for
individuals to feel like they can be fully
themselves and they may feel like they have to
be smaller or be a particular way. Um, and I kind of group
them into four categories. Which one is
that, um, as a professional Christian, we are often held
up as, um, representatives of God
or representatives of Christianity. Like, here's how Christian should

(19:15):
be. Um, we must be Christian. This is how God should
be. People who are godly should be behaving.
Here's how their life should be. Um,
power. We often have relational power in those roles which,
which can be influenced but can be a lot of other things around that
type of power. Um, we are often held
to high moral standards or are
considered role models for, in our community. Like, oh,

(19:38):
don't you want to grow up to be like, Pastor so and so or Mrs. So
and so? The English teacher, like, well, you know, she's a godly lady and she
should, you know, these, these types of things that like, hold us to high
moral standards, which can be a really great thing, but
can also be. Make people be
a little bit fake in their. In the way that they
are. Um, and then especially for clergy

(19:58):
people, but you know, for some other types of people,
um, our religious roles may also be part
of our identity. So I think of that especially for clergy
because someone who is in the role of priest
is also in the identity of a priest.
Um, and that's not the case for all denominations, for all
clergy. Like, you know, there's lots of ways to be
a Christian. Right. Um, but that type of

(20:21):
thing of like who you are as a person and
being paid to be who you are, um, can
make it difficult. Like, well, what if not everything fits neatly into
that box? Um, what if. What if things.
What if you run into a circumstance in life? What if you go through that
Dark night. How does that relate to who you are as a
Christian? And that private thing in your heart, how does that relate

(20:41):
to how you are on the outside?

>> Loren (20:44):
Yeah. These are so challenging
because I think in many ways
we would say, yes, you are
representative of God and that's a good thing. Uh,
yes, you should have a high moral standard.
Yes. Your,
like, role as a clergy should be part of your identity.

>> Sarah (21:05):
Absolutely. Yeah.

>> Loren (21:07):
And, you know, power certainly too. But also, like, these things
can go off the rails so easily.

>> Sarah (21:12):
Yeah.

>> Loren (21:13):
And I'm just thinking, like, I have a good friend who,
who was working in an evangelical space
and said to his pastor, like, hey, I don't know.
I don't know if I believe this anymore. And then, like, he was gone,
like, you know, a month later.

>> Sarah (21:27):
Yep.

>> Loren (21:27):
He was showing the door.

>> Sarah (21:29):
Yep. And that's,
that's actually, that particular type of circumstance is something I
write about because it's like, you know, it's one
thing if you're single, but what, what if you've got your three kids and your
spouse and your health insurance and, like, and how
do you navigate that? And. And in. In a
way that is like, upright and full of
integrity, knowing that people do change. And I don't even. I'm not

(21:51):
even thinking just about, like, people who, like, you know,
quote unquote, lose their faith, but,
uh, you know, people whose perspective shifts
slightly m. And suddenly, like,
they're at odds with the particular granular details
of their statement of faith that they had to sign on to. To be
part of this particular church or whatever.

(22:12):
And where is that line in which I can work here, I cannot work
here? Um, and when do you have to tell people? When do you
have to not. Like, that's tricky.
That's really, really tricky.

>> Loren (22:22):
Yeah. Because you're right about being a professional
Christian means that our livelihoods are contingent on
personal faith. And I'm thinking about this even
more broadly.
I've been in the job hunt for a
while, partly because I made
a decision to not step away

(22:42):
from professional ministry
in a clergy context. Just partly because
I needed to get paid more.
But being as I have,
uh, affinity for
faith and
missional work, like, I've tried to find
jobs in nonprofits that have

(23:04):
a faith component. But, like,
again, to your point, like, I've seen a
lot of Catholic churches or organizations hiring, and
they're like, we only will hire Catholics,
like, non profits who have a Christian base. Like, I'm
not.

>> Sarah (23:22):
But you're not the right kind of Christian.

>> Loren (23:23):
Right. The not kind of Christian and it's so flipping
frustrating. And I think, I think
even if I can be frank for a moment,
like, I tend to be in mainline
context the most, like. Mhm. I think this
happens in mainline context where it's just like,
you're not progressive or whatever,

(23:43):
uh, whatever adjective you want to use. You're not enough of
this for us. So it's like, it's. And I. I
guess I'm coming at it from the frustration of
the job perspective, which again, is part of this conversation
of like, it is so hard to find a job. A. And
then when it's like, it's not only like, can you do the job? It's
like, do you check the right boxes? Do you check the right
theological things? And it just. Yeah, it feels

(24:06):
impossible in many ways.

>> Sarah (24:08):
Mhm. And I feel
like it's not. It's an issue that isn't
to me, not quite as clear for people who are clergy
working in their particular denomination, you know, potentially with a bishop
or that kind of setup, because their pathway is in so many ways
clear. And they might, you know, have a mismatch of their
politics with their congregations, general politics. Like, there can be

(24:29):
things like that. But for
the vast majority of other professional
Christians who are, you know, the m. Majority of people who I would consider professional
Christians are not clergy, um, it gets even more tricky
because so many of us didn't train to
work in a particular denominational space.

>> Loren (24:46):
Right.

>> Sarah (24:47):
In my case, I went and got a bachelor's degree in organ
performance.

>> Loren (24:50):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (24:51):
Like, that is not a
specifically religious degree. I mean, it was religious because I went to school,
but like. And people who do, you know, work in social work,
people who work in children's education, who then are children's
ministers and churches and those kinds of things, which is
wonderful. Um, it's really tricky because,
like, uh, I mean, I.

(25:11):
The example I use in my book is around Presbyterians because, as we
know, Presbyterians, um, whereas I would consider a
Catholicism is this big tent that has churches
that welcome, um, trans people and churches that are extremely conservative.
And you need to wear your lace head covering. Like, it's huge.
Right. Whereas Presbyterian is very fractious. And there's
like lots and lots and lots of flavors of

(25:31):
Presbyterianism. Right. And so if you're
this, you know, person who wants to teach
French and you're going to be hired by the
Presbyterian school. Okay. This is a thing,
you know, they're Presbyterian schools, affiliate with the churches. Well, what
variety of Presbyterian are they? And are you allowed
to XYZ Whatever.

>> Loren (25:50):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (25:51):
And like to have to navigate through that
and even understand. Oh,
that this is a thing that you should be asking. It's
not readily apparent, um, that you should
ask or not ask. And things are also like, not
um, not as clear in terms of
like personal behavior. And I'm not, I'm not talking about like at school,

(26:11):
but like, who are you allowed to marry? Who are you allowed to hang out with? Are you allowed to
drink? Like things that for most people would
not even register, but like it's,
it's an actual thing for people who are in that broader.
Because different people have,
um, kind of think of it as like an unspoken
expectation. Well, of course people should, blah, blah, blah. But that
of course is different in different

(26:34):
denominations and different, uh, individual, uh,
institutions.

>> Loren (26:38):
Yeah, yeah. Let's shift
this a little bit because I want to talk about power
in ministry context. I think obviously
the context that uh, in fairness,
gets like the most shame
of late. And I think for good reason, like I said,

(26:58):
is in evangelical settings, often
power is
again, again it seems like abused. That being said,
I think what I've seen in
mainline context or progressive context is I feel like
sometimes there's this real hesitancy to
use any kind of power, which I don't think is also

(27:20):
helpful. And I'm just kind of curious.
I'm just curious. That gets so complicated. So how do you,
how do you, about, how do you talk about it?

>> Sarah (27:28):
And I have to say I, I do agree. Um, I sometimes
feel like people who are in positions. Power have
to own that position of power and realize that they
are in power and not, um,
like I feel like to pretend otherwise is to do a
disservice to the volunteers working with them.

>> Loren (27:45):
Yes.

>> Sarah (27:46):
Or maybe, maybe they are themselves a volunteer, but it does a
disservice to not own the power that is like implicit in
a position.

>> Loren (27:53):
Yeah, I've, I felt that if I can jump in like
personally, even as a clergy person, working with
folks above me, where it's like, we're on
this, you know, when they come at me like, hey, we're on the same. It's like,
no, we're not on the same level. Like, you can clearly have
significant influence over my career.

>> Sarah (28:11):
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I
do understand like that impulse.
Um, but at the end of the day,
like some people can fire other people.

>> Loren (28:21):
Right.

>> Sarah (28:22):
That's just how it goes. And that is, that is
power. And um, some people are privy to things that other people are
not privy to. And like, when I think about, like, power for
professional Christians. Um, some of that is literally just
you end up knowing a lot of personal information about
people. Like, every week in the, uh,
worship design committee that I am co
leading, um, where I work, um, we pray for, like,

(28:45):
six different families or six different individuals, um,
every week, roughly speaking. And
we're not sitting there gossiping, but, like, I don't know, the
hundreds of people in the church directory. And so we'll be like, oh, that's so and
so. And that's so and so and so. Like, I know who, like,
you know, I know, like, some difficult stories for people. And these are not like,
personally, like, this is not like a gossip thing, but it's like, oh, I know
that their kid died a few years ago.

>> Loren (29:06):
Right.

>> Sarah (29:06):
I know that, like, oh, they haven't been to church in a while because they got
upset about whatever the thing was, and they'll come back, you know, that kind of
thing. Um, so again, it's not like, you know,
intimate details necessarily, but then there's also places where it's
just like, you know, you end up with, like, all kinds of stories that are kind of told to you
in confidence.

>> Loren (29:22):
Right.

>> Sarah (29:23):
Um, and. Or, I mean, I don't do
pastoral counseling, but then there's that whole thing of, like,
you're pastorally counseling people and what can you share?
And, and so back to the whole, like, why is this tricky for
professional Christians? Because we're not therapists.

>> Loren (29:37):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (29:38):
And therapists have an, A very
clear, mandated division between their
life and their client's life, their patient's life.
That is a very. We have HIPAA laws for, for medical
professionals. That's very clear what you can share and what you
can't share. And church people, I mean,
we raise our kids together. Like,
you know, I went to the, Went to the apple picking with,

(30:01):
you know, the lady in my choir and her little kid, and
that's totally fine, and that's totally okay. And I'm, um, also not, you
know, doing pastoral counseling, but, like, the social
separation isn't there in the way that it is for,
um, people in some other professions. Um, we also have
lots of influence and, um, there's, you know, lots of ways
to think about it, but I, I just think of it a lot of times

(30:21):
as people pay attention to what we say.
Not always. And I'm sure some pastors would be like, oh, my God, have you
seen people during the sermon? They're not paying attention,
but generally speaking, uh, people will listen to
what we say. Um, pastors maybe, uh,
Pastors especially, you, um, know,
perspective on the news station,
um, just.

(30:43):
Just like. Like having that. That clergy collar on where it's just like, oh,
here's someone that I should sit up and pay attention to.
Um, in. In my little world as the music
director, where it's just like, you know, I'm. I'm in charge of the
room and I wish that they
listen more than they do. Sometimes they chat a little bit much. We
have a good time. Um, but, you know, generally speaking, like. Like I.
I basically have the floor and people will listen to what I

(31:06):
say. And that is a. That is a power that we have to
own and we have to be responsible for. And,
um, sometimes that comes with obligation. When, uh,
I was doing this book, I interviewed quite a few people in
ministry, and especially ministry in areas that I don't work
in. Like, I, you know, I interviewed people who do chaplaincy. I
interviewed, um, teachers and pastors and people who

(31:27):
don't work in the same area that I do.
Um, and many people spoke about what they felt like
was an obligation to comment on certain public
issues. To, um.
I mean, I think rightly so say, like, you know, here's a Christian
perspective or the perspective of the historic church is this. Can we have a
conversation about it? Um, but then they also talked

(31:47):
about, like, the flip side of that obligation was
this sense of feeling like they shouldn't say too much
because people could treat their opinion
as something that they should do. And just because pastor so and
so has the opinion just because, uh, you know,
Matrushka so and so thinks this doesn't mean
that the person should do it.
Um, and,

(32:08):
um, I remember visiting a church one time
once, um, because the priest there was asking me about why I wasn't
homeschooling my children. And I went, oh,
that is not how power is supposed to flow. That. You just met me.
That's not. This is not an appropriate use
of power. Um, you know, clearly,
in that person's opinion, it was. Um.

(32:29):
But that is something that I think, especially in the age of social
media and easy communication and an expectation
that pastors, um, and churches and other people have
like, um, opinions to share. Um, but it might be
the. Has to be exactly the right kind. Other people will be angry at
you. Um, but like, this expectation that they'll speak up, it gets
really, really tricky, um, about what they should speak up, what they shouldn't speak

(32:49):
up, and, you know, all the different boundaries there. And like,
uh, it's really ethically compensated. Like, it's not
Always a clear should or shouldn't.

>> Loren (32:57):
Yeah, I worked for a church that was not a huge church
but had m, you know, multi, several
staff. So I'm thinking about like prayer requests being
shared in staff meeting amongst folks who are
like me had seminary training and years of
experience and also somebody who was like the church
janitor, you know. And then I'm thinking

(33:17):
like it had a preschool attached. So there
were some in the staff
guidebook, there were some social media
guidelines because hey, of course they didn't
want you trashing
the church or the preschool
on social media. But also like you said,

(33:39):
certainly in this day and age if
a staff member and even if they're,
you know, a janitor makes like a strong political
statement, that can be complicated at best.
Uh, right, yeah, yeah.

>> Sarah (33:55):
And this I think something we haven't talked about yet, but
there's really a big part of this is the perception of the
people that we work with. The people who are not professional Christians
but who are deeply embedded in the work that we do.
And their expectation about
what we on the professional side of things
are allowed to do, um, is very, very
difficult. And sometimes as far as I can see, especially in

(34:18):
the mainline, um, their expectation can be much smaller than what is
actually true. Like well, you're a,
a um, religious professional, therefore you should XYZ
or you're not supposed to xyz, whatever the things are.
Um, and you know, the social standards
of Mrs. M so and so who's 95
are pretty different from your,

(34:38):
you know, Gen Z up and coming
clergy person. And that's not a bad thing. It's
just like, you know, what, what Mrs. So and so who's 95 thinks is just
polite speech is different from what a
25 year old thinks is polite speech. Like these are, these are
just, I mean I don't even think those are Christian things so much as just
cultural things.

>> Loren (34:56):
Right.

>> Sarah (34:57):
Um, but um, can be very
tricky especially if people think about that in terms of
identity because what you can do is not necessarily what you
should do. Like I always joke um, with my Clark. I work
with very, very progressive, um, and very
polite Methodists. And
I always joke with them how we bring our good manners to
choir. And that means I don't bring my potty mouth to choir

(35:19):
because like I'm working with people from like
teenagers up into 89
I think is my oldest person. That's a huge social range
of what is appropriate behavior. And so while ah, some
people, uh, you know, I, I
personally feel like I have to be respectful of that spectrum. And
so in a way, I make myself, you know, quote unquote, smaller. But I don't think of
it as smaller so much. Just like, I'm behaving in a professional. That's

(35:42):
appropriate to this context. And sometimes
people feel like, oh, that isn't appropriate to this context.
That's me being a fake version of myself. That is me being
a dishonest version of myself. Um,
and I mean, something that gets into, like,
individual. Like, well, what is really important, like, what is truly your
identity and what is just your
presentation in this particular moment? Is that against your

(36:04):
identity? Is that just.
Let's.

>> Loren (36:07):
Let's go deeper into that. Because I did want to ask about that. And I think
that's important because I feel like it's a
challenge, especially for, uh,
the circles I tend to run most in. Younger
clergy, who similarly, like you've kind
of hinted at, can often have a mismatch between
their own religious and political
views and the churches they're serving in.

(36:29):
And there's this. You write in the book about authenticity versus
sincerity, about transparency
versus contextually appropriate.
So I think the example of you
made the idea of cussing, for instance,
and I think it's made more
challenging by what I'll say, uh,

(36:51):
as I've read from other authors, is
there's this kind of cultural norm of if
you can't wear it all on your sleeve, you're
being not true to yourself, inauthentic, you're
being oppressed, what have you. So it
creates a real hard dynamic. So talking
through that in greater detail.

>> Sarah (37:11):
Yeah, authenticity is something that was, uh, actually the genesis of
this book. I'd been looking at authenticity from a lot of
angles, a lot of different contexts, especially in
fundamentalism. But one thing that I kept
coming back to was among the many ways of understanding
authenticity, um, one is that authenticity
as a. Of good value is being natural or
spontaneous. And that this is like the truest version of self.

(37:34):
And this comes from, like, Jacques Rousseau in the French Enlightenment.
And like, there's. There's a. There's a whole thing there, but, like,
boiling it down to essence. This idea that we often use in
America when we talk about authenticity is that to be true
to yourself is the highest good. And what being, quote,
unquote, true to yourself is. Is simply being,
uh, in your gut emotion, in your spontaneity, in

(37:54):
your. I felt it, I did it. It's all on my sleeve. You
can see it all. And that is the truest way
and. And the highest good and
if you are in a professional setting, oh my
goodness, that's not going to get you very far.

>> Loren (38:08):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (38:09):
So, but what that does, that understanding of like, well, this kind of
authenticity is the best way of being. This is the truest self.
This is in many ways I'm not, I don't, I'm, to be clear,
I'm not agreeing with this, but some people may say, oh, well, this is the most
Christian way of being because it's the most true. I don't agree.
Um, but that sets up
a sense of if I behave in what many people

(38:29):
would consider a professional way, then I am being fake,
I'm being false, I'm being untrue, I'm being untrue to
myself. And then because we're adding in that layer of
Christianity, um, I'm in some way being not true to God
because I'm behaving in this way that is limiting in some way
or not spontaneous. Spontaneous.
And what I wanted to
argue for, what I did argue for in my book

(38:52):
is that there are other ways of understanding,
um, personal integrity and I mean
authenticity, sincerity, other ways of understanding self,
present presentation in a given real time
moment that I personally feel are much more
helpful in that professional setting. And one
of those particularly helpful ways for me is this
understanding of sincerity, which is kind of like a cousin of

(39:15):
authenticity, which for me is
like, uh, you know, being who you say you are.
And that allows us
a conceptual framework for not being spontaneous
but also being true to who we are. So for
instance, uh, my husband is a physician
and sometimes deals with like really, you know, lots of
blood everywhere. And like a gut

(39:37):
response to that is like, this is horrible. Right?
Yeah, like, like, you know, some emotional. That is the gut response.

>> Loren (39:43):
Right, Right.

>> Sarah (39:44):
But the, that's not the professional response. You need to run the code.
You need to. So you, you are not
being, quote, unquote spontaneous. You're going to the plan. This
is how we run a code. This is what we're doing. That's not
spontaneous. That is planned in advance, that is
practiced in advance and that is what the person
needs. And in a professional setting, like we may
encounter, um, people will sometimes tell you really horrible

(40:06):
things.

>> Loren (40:07):
Right.

>> Sarah (40:07):
And um, you know, especially if you're doing like
pastoral counseling or um, chaplaincy, there are really
terrible things and people do not want your gut
response. That is not what people need in that moment.
You need a professional response. The professional response is the
loving response, is the godly response, is the Christian
response, but it is not spontaneous and it is
not quote, unquote, natural. We've

(40:30):
practiced it. We planned for it. Um, I think this comes
up especially for people like me who work in
music. We practice and practice and practice and
practice. And sometimes people then accuse us of
performing on Sunday because we are in that
mindset of, like, you know, I want to make sure it all goes together right.
And I think of that as no, I deeply care about what I'm
doing, and I am

(40:53):
living out that care and that, uh, that love
for the people around me in that.
That way that I present in the. In the church service. And that doesn't. Just
because I'm not, like, in my emotions, with my emotions on
my sleeve does not mean I'm fake. And this comes up
especially a lot for, uh, preachers and vocalists on Sunday
morning because, like, you know, in a church service,

(41:14):
um, because especially, uh, vocalists in,
like, more evangelical or contemporary settings, um, they're asked
to emote with their faces. Um, and if you're not
emoting in the particular way, you're not, quote, unquote, leading worship in the right
way, that particular style of worship.

>> Loren (41:27):
Yes.

>> Sarah (41:28):
It's not what I do. I'm an organist. I'm kind of hidden a little bit. I
got my serious face on. But that is many, many Christians are
asked to do that in church services. Pastors are asked to do that when they
preach. Preachers, just whoever's preaching to have that
emotive facial, that affective.
The conversations after the church service where you are, like,
emotionally engaged with people, and that needs to show up on your

(41:48):
face. In our American cultural context, this face needs
to be engaged and needs to have smiles on it. Right. Um.
Well, what happens if you're going through something really difficult
and you don't feel like it? Your emotions are
not in line with
what worship looks like in your particular setting on Sunday
morning. Right. Um, that, to me, is

(42:08):
where, um, preparation comes in, and it's where sincerity
comes in, where it's just like, we're being who we are. And who we
are can be. We can be sad, and we can be
leading in the way that people need us. At the same time, it doesn't have to be a
fake thing. It's only, like,
fake if, like, we're lying or we are
thinking that we're lying because we're not being spontaneous.

>> Loren (42:29):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (42:30):
I mean, there's a lot of layers. Sorry. This is a long
chapter. Uh, that's a good chapter, though.
That's kind of like the nutshell of what I'm arguing,
um, in terms of how we can understand being
true, uh, and full of integrity in those
spaces.

>> Loren (42:45):
Yeah. I think it's such
an important point because I appreciate, and I appreciate your
example of the stereotypical
evangelical worship leader, like you said, has got to be kind
of big and emotive and their faith
kind of overflowing and they could be going through a personal
season where they're just, they're just in the

(43:05):
valley of the shadow of death. Right. And the
cultural expectation is like, you cannot show that on
stage. And I think conversely,
um, from the context I find myself in, like in a mainline
preaching context, it's almost like if the pastor is
too performative in their preaching, it's like,
hold on, what's going on here? This is not a show.

(43:26):
But there's got to be some kind of nuance
or space. Right? For both.

>> Sarah (43:32):
Yeah.

>> Loren (43:32):
And so I think this leads
into something else I want to talk about.
Um, because I think I'm thinking of, I don't know if you ever
watched the Good Place of when Ellen becomes
disintegrated. Right. I can't remember if that's season three or
four. Let me see if I can find this here in your book.
So page 93, you write about being

(43:53):
disintegrated.

>> Sarah (43:54):
Hm.

>> Loren (43:55):
Uh, you write, if we want to be integrated, we can't set ourselves up
for disintegration. So let's
just think about this. To stay in that example of like whether
it's an evangelical worship leader going
through a really rough time either personally
in their family, with their faith, whatever, being
very emotive, uh, and expressive in their, in their,

(44:15):
in their leading up on stage, whether
it's a, whether it's a
pastor from a more, you
know, traditional tie down
context who doesn't want
faith to be just about performance,
but also wants to perform their
sermon or their message. Well,

(44:38):
these things can feel very
disintegrating. How do we stay
integrated?

>> Sarah (44:44):
Yeah, yeah. I feel like there are a lot of, lot of
answers there. Um, one that
many people that I interviewed spoke about was the importance
of having a close circle of friends and counselors
and understanding that like, what is said in those
spaces is not, doesn't have to be
like untrue to the more public aspects of what

(45:04):
we do.

>> Loren (45:05):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (45:06):
But that provides a place for us to
be anchored and moored and,
um, have people really know who we
are, like in a more broad sense than
most congregants or volunteers that we work
with, then those people would get to know us, um, and
how important that is. So that
we are helping, having people around us

(45:28):
who know us well, who are, um, in
some ways being a mirror to us and showing us who we are. Is
this who we are? Um, but I
would also say, like, one huge, important, huge
part of this is just making sure that we are in a workplace
that aligns with core aspects of who we
are, like, as a baseline. And that's really

(45:49):
tricky because, like, we all need to, like, pay our rent and eat and.
Right. Um, and.
But. But having. Having that kind of
foundational, like, my values are
basically aligned with the values that are. That I'm called
to have as a professional Christian in this space. Like,
the. The. Those things are in alignment.

(46:09):
Um, everything else can kind of flow from that. And then, of
course, then there's also like, the whole idea of, like, well, we go through difficult
circumstances and we can't always share those difficult
circumstances, um, in more public ways
or not everyone needs to know all of those things.
Um, and I think some of
this is also, like, we have to realize that sometimes people can have
misperceptions, and that's not always

(46:32):
our problem.

>> Loren (46:32):
Yes.

>> Sarah (46:33):
Um, sometimes people really think that they know us really well
because they see what we post on social media, or they
see us every week at Bible study. And
therefore they know us really well. And like, they know part of us really
well, but they're also not our best friend. They're also not our spouse.
They're like. Yeah. And I feel like these
days, especially because social, um, media

(46:53):
and like, being on zoom and stuff, like, you know, here I'm sitting here at
my dining room table, you can see what my house looks like.
Like, in the past, that wouldn't have been publicly available
to people. But like, these days, you know,
I'm. Especially during the pandemic, like, I led my
choir through the pandemic. My hand built people through
the pandemic. And, you know, they saw like my whole house.

>> Loren (47:13):
Right.

>> Sarah (47:13):
Um, you know, they saw my children all the time in
a way that, like, uh, it makes it feel like, very
intimate. Um, and in some ways, like, like, it
is, but it's also not the whole story.
And, um, like, we can't always help
that people don't understand that difference. Like, people can be really
naive about that. Uh, and

(47:33):
especially like, if they don't quite understand, like, that kind of
parasocial.

>> Loren (47:36):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (47:37):
Not always paradoxical, but, like, that sense that, like,
there's more to it and, um, not.
Not everyone really wants to understand that or
is able to understand that. Yeah.

>> Loren (47:47):
And I think boundaries here Is an important conversation. Right. Like,
at some point it's on us,
the professional Christians, so to speak, to have our own boundaries.
We can't expect people to know. What
boundaries?

>> Sarah (47:59):
Yeah, you know, I mean, they haven't thought about
it. Like, why would they be thinking about it?

>> Loren (48:03):
Right, right. And
I think what often so happens, uh, this is my
perspective at least I think generally speaking, most
people ask or seek
further engagement, whatever.
They mean well, and they're not trying to
impose, but they're going to keep asking till we

(48:23):
say no. Or that's, you know. No, I'm sorry,
I can't have you over my house. No, I'm sorry, I can't stay
late. No, I'm sorry, I don't want to.
Whatever. Have a meal with you every other Tuesday.
Um,
I think it was the.
I have an episode in the past with Todd

(48:45):
Ferguson and Josh Packard, and then there's another book
they have. I can't remember the book, but a very
similar thing about the importance of
clergy. And they talk from a clergy perspective. But I
think this tracks having.
Having these boundaries or
circles of. Can't remember the exact

(49:05):
words, you know, of kind of
relationships. Right. Of, you
know, in one context, like, you're going to behave one
way on stage in the green room, for
instance, a very evangelical term. I know, but in the green room,
you can kind of let your hair down, but also like to just
be really cut and dry. Like, you can't, like,
you know, you can't take your. Can't take your shoes off.

(49:28):
Right. Um, at home, maybe you can take your shoes
off. You're not being untrue to yourself. And I
also think, like, correct me if
I'm wrong here, if you disagree, but I feel like we have this
really strong cultural thing towards, like,
transparency where it's like you've got,
like. If you're not showing everything to everybody, it's like you're
not being you. And I'm just one. Like. Like,

(49:51):
hey, Like, I m. Don't need to see that on social media.
Like, you don't. You don't need to show me that.

>> Sarah (49:56):
I think that that goes back to this, like, idea of, like, authenticity
is natural. Has a long cultural
history.

>> Loren (50:02):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (50:03):
20, 24. But yeah, I feel like a lot of,
um, a lot of social media and things around
social media, um, allow for more transparency,
which, you know, if that's what people want in their life, fine.
Um, but it. Because it's allowed for.
Because there is a place for it. Um, it's
more, um, people may have more
expectation from it. Yeah,

(50:26):
I, um, actually post a lot less on social media these
days. Um, in part because, like, I have a baby, I'm
real busy, but also because I'm just, like,
I just don't. I don't want to have to go through that. Like, huh, what
should I post? When should I post? Oh, if I don't post for a week,
are people going to be worried about me? Like, I just, I just,
I'm really tired. I have lots of kids. I don't have the

(50:47):
energy for that right now. Um,
and, you know, that's. If people have a problem
with that, that's kind of. It's kind of on them.

>> Loren (50:55):
Right. And I think that's so much of it. Right. It's just kind of being okay
with some people not being okay.

>> Sarah (51:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that doesn't, you know, back
to, like, the whole idea of integrity. Like, we should still be acting with integrity
in all of these places. Like, ah, people can be meeting you in one place
and being radically surprised because of your behavior in a different
place. Like, I think most people understand, oh, if I meet you in a
marathon, you are going to then look different at your job on Tuesday
morning. Like, people get that kind of difference. But if you are

(51:20):
acting, like, acting radically different in one place
and in another place, like, in ways that are at odds with each other,
like, that is a problem and that is,
um, not a righteous way to live. That's just not. You should
not be acting like that.

>> Loren (51:34):
Yeah.

>> Sarah (51:35):
Um, and sometimes we all do this. We sometimes act in ways that are
not, um, in line with our values, that are not in line with how we would
hope that we are and that we're people. And people do
that.

>> Loren (51:45):
Well, the book is professional. Being fully
yourself in the spotlight of public ministry. I feel like,
like we could continue to have this conversation for a
while. There's a lot of good content. I
want to recommend the book. Sarah, let's take a break
and we'll come back with some closing questions.
Do you need a minute? Otherwise, I'll just reintroduce you.

(52:05):
Okay. Barisa. Right.
Okay. All right. We're back with Dr. Sarah
Bereza Thank you so much for the conversation
and for your time. Let's go into
these closing questions. You're welcome to take these as
seriously or not as you'd like to, but
if you're poked for a day, what might that day

(52:26):
look like for you?

>> Sarah (52:27):
Oh, uh, it would involve universal healthcare.

>> Loren (52:31):
Pretty simple.

>> Sarah (52:32):
Yep.

>> Loren (52:34):
Okay. See, I always try to take notes and you got me so quick,
I did not have time to write this down.
Okay, um. A theologian or historical figure do you want
to meet or bring back to life?

>> Sarah (52:48):
Oh, man, that one is really
tricky. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of,
uh, musicians that I would. That I would love to meet,
um, or at least hear their music live in
the original settings. I love the composer Claudio
Monteverdi, who lived in the 15, um, hundreds,
1600s. And, man, if I could hear his music live in
the day, make me real happy.

>> Loren (53:10):
Oh, you have got to listen to.
It was my conversation last week.

>> Sarah (53:15):
Uh-huh.

>> Loren (53:17):
So for listeners, you have better listened to it here.
David Taylor, he, uh,
answered this question by, I think, if I'm remembering
correctly, naming off, like, six
hymn writers historically
and wanting to get them in a room. One was like family
Crosby. One was, I think, Hildegard.

>> Sarah (53:37):
Yeah. Yeah.

>> Loren (53:38):
So that would be entertaining.
Um, okay. I'm sorry. I. I got distracted. Did you
say. Who did you say? You said him, Right?

>> Sarah (53:46):
Oh, Claudia Monteverdi.

>> Loren (53:47):
Claudia.

>> Sarah (53:47):
I love his music. I wouldn't be able to talk to him. I don't speak
Italian. Uh, but.

>> Loren (53:53):
Okay, who do you, uh.
Who. What's my question here? What do you think history will
remember from our current time and place?

>> Sarah (54:01):
Oh, I hope it remembers a, uh, turn towards
democracy and,
uh, uh,
reliance on the power of the people. I certainly
hope that is the turn that we take. I
don't know that that will be, but I pray and hope that that is
where we are at this point. Yeah.

>> Loren (54:19):
Ah, I'm thinking. When is this episode going to be
released? We'll see.

>> Sarah (54:25):
Yeah. Um, we should say we're recording in October.
I don't know where things are going, and I don't.

>> Loren (54:31):
What do you hope for the future of Christianity?

>> Sarah (54:34):
Oh, uh, more unity. I
would hope for the mainline, that the, um. Especially
for the Mainline, that the coming decades of
mergers and potentially,
um, denominational mergers. I hope that that
is, um, full of Christian love and
charity and desire for the good of people and

(54:54):
not. Not, um, uh, uh,
tribalism. Not holding tight onto our own personal
little treasures. But I'm sharing freely and
widely.

>> Loren (55:03):
Okay, so you said there. I have to ask. Real
quick. I, uh, have a friend who has suggested that
really all the mainline denominations
need to just merge into one
mega denomination.
Like, real quick, any thoughts?

>> Sarah (55:20):
You mentioned that I would be very surprised if in a hundred
years, that's not where, like, I don't
see this regionalism,
um, which comes out of, you know, the Protestant Reformation and also
comes out of immigration in the United States.

>> Loren (55:35):
Right.

>> Sarah (55:35):
That we would have so many different flavors of
kind of really close to the same thing. And,
um, I mean, I say this is like, kind of on the outside of the
main line. I don't have a strong, like, um.

>> Loren (55:46):
Dog in the fight.

>> Sarah (55:47):
No, I don't like, you know, I love John Wesley, I love Martin Luther,
but it's not like one of those is my homeboy or something. Like, I
don't get those cultural kinds of
affinities in the same way. Um,
but I really see, like, there's so
much more similarity, and if the mainland could
become more of a big tent Catholic, um,
churches, I would certainly pray and hope that that's what

(56:09):
happens. Um, we do not need
the divisions in the way that we currently have.

>> Loren (56:14):
Who's, like, maybe you don't know this, but you mentioned
Presbyterians. The Presbyterians. Who's their. I
guess is that Luther is their guy.
Like, I'm m. Ordained Disciples of Christ. So like,
Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell are like our
kind of, like, folks.

>> Sarah (56:30):
Yeah. The Presbyterians have. Have Calvin.

>> Loren (56:32):
Calvin. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And then
I guess what, uh, American Baptist would they
go? John.

>> Sarah (56:39):
Roger Williams.

>> Loren (56:40):
Roger Williams. Thank you. Yeah.

>> Sarah (56:41):
Yes.

>> Loren (56:42):
We're just kind of playing mention of my childhood historical
games here.

>> Sarah (56:45):
John Huss, maybe.

>> Loren (56:47):
Sure, sure. Yeah. Who's
the other. Who am I forgetting?
So we got the methods. We got the Presbyterians,
ucc, Episcopalians. Episcopalians.

>> Sarah (56:59):
I don't know. We're have Henry viii.

>> Loren (57:01):
Henry viii, Right.

>> Sarah (57:02):
Living in the same regard now. Who wrote. Who wrote
the Book of Common Prayer? Is that Thomas Cranmer?

>> Loren (57:08):
Oh, I mean, I have.

>> Sarah (57:11):
There you go.

>> Loren (57:12):
That's pretty prominent right here in front of me. I don't
know. I don't. I don't use it enough to know it.
Um, okay. And I have no idea. The
Congregationalists. Gosh. I mean, the UC really goes
back to the Congregationalists and then.

>> Sarah (57:24):
Yeah. And the Evangelical Reform Church.

>> Loren (57:27):
Like that.

>> Sarah (57:27):
Murder.

>> Loren (57:28):
Right.

>> Sarah (57:29):
And I have no idea who the Evangelical Reform.
I don't know the history there. Yeah.

>> Loren (57:34):
I mean, because there's some.

>> Sarah (57:35):
Is that also kind of like. That's kind of cousin to Baptist, like
that. Like, we're very American and we do our own thing.

>> Loren (57:40):
Right, Right.

>> Sarah (57:41):
Yeah, we do our own thing. Which, you know, talking
about, like, potential denominational mergers and, like that.
Denominational disintegration, like, that's really hard.
Um, in a, uh, place where culture is very, like,
my stuff is mine.

>> Loren (57:54):
Right.

>> Sarah (57:55):
Butt out and find your own. Your own place. Like
That's.

>> Loren (57:58):
Well, yeah, because especially hurdle. Yeah, because
especially. I think, like, there's so many,
like, in the incar. In denominations
that have a more
congregational. What's
the word? I'm blanking. Model.

>> Sarah (58:13):
The polity.

>> Loren (58:14):
Polity. Thank you. Yes. You know, like,
the denomination can say whatever they want. The congregation's
like, uh, whatever.

>> Sarah (58:22):
We're doing what we want.

>> Loren (58:22):
We're doing what we want to do.

>> Sarah (58:25):
Firsthand experience with that recently where the church
where I worked, a Methodist church, United
Methodist, merged with another congregation about a
year before I started working there. And, uh, it has
been so good for them. It's been
the best that you could have right out of a
merger. And I
just. I'm so thankful that they

(58:48):
were in a place where they had a bishop who was like, well, you don't merge.
We get your money and your building, so maybe you should merge. And
you got six months. And they made it happen. Um, because these
congregational churches that are dwindling and dwindling and
dwindling don't have that kick in the pants from
someone in the hierarchy making them do it. So if they have the money, if they
got the endowment, they can hold on forever. Need a kick in the

(59:08):
pants. Um, all four of them in the basement as the roof
leaks. Um, instead of going and
being in Christian community with
other people, um,
I mean, to me, it's a shame, but it's also just human nature. If
you have a bunch of volunteers running things, like, it's a lot of work
to make a merger happen. There's a lot of work, and it's a lot of, um,

(59:28):
selflessness. It's so difficult. So if
you don't have, you know, the bishop,
the district supervisor, the whoever it is, the presbyter,
like, saying, well, you have to do this, then
to make it happen. It's just really.

>> Loren (59:42):
Yep.

>> Sarah (59:43):
Really difficult.

>> Loren (59:44):
Yep. Well, let's leave it there. On that note,
where can people connect with you and, uh, find out more about your
work?

>> Sarah (59:52):
Oh, find me online. You, uh, can search for my name. I am
the musician, not the artist. There's another person with my same name,
similar in age to me. My website is
sarah-bariza. B
E R E Z A dot com and I also have a
free newsletter that I send sporadically, but it's full of book
recommendations and music that I love.

>> Loren (01:00:12):
All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really
appreciate your time, and, uh, enjoyed reading the
book, having me.

>> Sarah (01:00:19):
This has been wonderful.

>> Loren (01:00:20):
Yeah. Thank you. So I always leave folks with a word of peace, so may
God's peace be with you.

>> Sarah (01:00:24):
Amen to that.

>> Loren Richmond (01:00:32):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website@uh,
future-christian.com and find the Connect with us
for form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with
Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us

(01:00:55):
a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a review.
It really helps us get this out to more people.
Thanks and go in peace.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Professional Christian: Sarah Bereza on how to be fully yourself in public ministry

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

Professional Christian: Sarah Bereza on how to be fully yourself in public ministry

Stuff You Should Know