Reaching Gen Z: Mike Orr on Belonging, Doubt, and the Future of Faith

What does youth ministry look like when the world — and young people — are changing faster than ever?

In this in-person episode recorded at Broomfield United Methodist Church, host Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with longtime student ministries director Mike Orr to talk about faith formation, Gen Z and Gen Alpha, belonging, spiritual maturity, and what it really means to cultivate community in a post-Christian culture.

With warmth, honesty, and decades of ministry experience, Mike reflects on:

Highlights from the Conversation

• His early spiritual experiences and how actual transformation — not willpower — shaped his faith.

• The surprising power of belonging-first ministry for Gen Z & Gen Alpha.

• Why emotionally coercive youth ministry of the 90s left deep marks — and how churches can do better.

• How to hold space for students with radically different political or cultural views.

• Why youth ministry should never be about indoctrination, but about helping young people own and explore their faith.

• How to handle deconstruction as a natural part of spiritual growth.

• The crisis facing young men — and how to model a healthier version of Christian masculinity.

• Why the future of church isn't about producing spiritual “products,” but creating a context where real faith can flourish.

• The essential role parents play in forming faith, whether they realize it or not.

• His hope for Christianity: “Keep adding leaves to the table. There’s room for everyone.”

This is a rich, grounded conversation about what actually works in youth ministry today — and what kind of church the next generation is longing for.

Mike Orr has been a youth worker since the late 1990's, serving churches in Pennsylvania, Connecticut, California, and Colorado. He earned his MDiv from Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. For over 10 years he has been the Director of Student Ministries at Broomfield United Methodist Church, located in the northern suburbs of Denver, CO. He lives with his wife and 3 dogs in Denver, CO. He has written zero books. 

 

Mentioned Resources:

🌐 Mike's Church: Broomfield UMC

🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: Andrew Root

🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: Quiet Revival

🎧 Mike’s Podcast: Tapestry Talk

 

Presenting Sponsor:

Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world. 

 

Supporting Sponsors:

Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.

Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age. 

 

Future Christian Team:

Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer

Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host

Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer

Dennis Sanders – Producer

Alexander Lang - Production Assistant

 

Keywords / SEO Tags

youth ministry, Gen Z faith, Gen Alpha spirituality, belonging in church, student ministries, Mike Orr Broomfield UMC, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr, deconstruction and faith, progressive youth ministry, family faith formation, modern youth ministry challenges, Charlie Kirk Christianity, masculinity and church, spiritual formation for teens, church and political identity, Christian nationalism youth, Wesleyan sanctification, teen mental health church

 

 

Episode Transcript

>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Mike
Orr. Mike has been a youth worker since the late
1990s, serving churches in Pennsylvania,
Connecticut, California and Colorado. He earned
his M. Um. Div. From Fuller Theological Seminary
in Pasadena, California. For over 10 years, he has

(01:07):
been the director of student ministries at
Broomfield United Methodist Church, located in the
northern suburbs of Denver. He lives with his wife
and three dogs in Denver and he has written zero
books. A reminder, before we start today's
conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to
the podcast, leave a review and share Future

(01:28):
Christian with a friend. Share. Connect with
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro
uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the church.

>> Loren (01:57):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm recording live
and in person at Broomfield United Methodist
Church with Mike Orr. Hello. Welcome to the show.

>> Mike Orr (02:10):
Loren, how's it going, man?

>> Loren (02:11):
Yeah, it's great, Great to be here. We're
recording. What, in the basement as you do. Yeah,
as you do. This is like where all the good
podcasts happen though, is in some church
basement, I think.

>> Mike Orr (02:23):
Yeah. Uh, AA meetings, youth group and podcasts.

>> Loren (02:27):
Right, right. So my favorite episodes are always
in person episodes. So I'm hoping we can have a
good conversation today.
But before we get started, like anything else, you
want our listeners to know about you.

>> Mike Orr (02:40):
Oh, man, uh, inside, in a basement with computers
is not my place. Yeah, outdoors, on a bicycle,
while on skis or on a trail somewhere. It's my
place. Especially if it's with my dogs. Um, if
it's with my dogs and my wife. Double bonus, man.
Love, uh, being outside. I love, uh, leading

(03:01):
ministry opportunities outside as well, in the
great outdoors. And so living in Colorado, man, is
this world class. Mhm scene, man. I get to do all
sorts of really great things, uh, in the mountains
and beyond. So I love that, um, see other things
you might want to know about me. Uh, the bio, I

(03:22):
think will mention that I, uh, have written zero
books, but I have read many books, love reading,
love, uh, having deep discussions with people. And
I hope people aren't caught off guard when we go
unexpectedly deep. But uh, I love having those
unexpectedly deep conversations. Whether it's on a

(03:44):
ski lift m. Or um, at a brewery or all of a sudden
it turns to things that, um, have eternal
consequences, that are beyond just, uh, I don't
know, good bikes and good beer and good dogs.

>> Loren (04:00):
I suppose we're already getting off track here,
but I was just thinking about this because we've,
uh, talked a little bit about Nandra Root and I
was thinking about an episode I had with him.

>> Mike Orr (04:12):
It was a good episode.

>> Loren (04:13):
Did you listen? Yeah, thanks for listening. But I
was thinking about, we were talking about this
idea of being ontologically marked, which is a big
word to sort of say, like, to think of it this way
that God marks us almost as like a safe person to
talk to.

>> Mike Orr (04:32):
Mhm. In our very being.

>> Loren (04:34):
Right, right. And I think, like I posted this on
Facebook, like Sunday at church, like in this
church on Sunday, like someone came up and started
talking to me about their family struggles. And
like, I'm not on staff here. I think they know
that I'm a chaplain. But I was also like, I was

(04:55):
struck by like, uh, like in the moment I couldn't
even remember her name.

>> Mike Orr (04:59):
Yeah.

>> Loren (04:59):
Like, I felt kind of bad.

>> Mike Orr (05:01):
Happens to me all the time.

>> Loren (05:03):
Yeah, sure. But so I think, like, I guess what I'm
saying is like, I think like, there's something to
that. Like, and I'm sure you've, you've noticed
that yourself. You're like, why do people keep
talking to me?

>> Mike Orr (05:15):
Well, I think it's why I decided, um, on a
psychology degree in undergrad. I think it's also
why I went on to, uh, an MDIF Master of Divinity,
uh, in seminary. I think it's why youth, uh,
ministry.

>> Loren (05:31):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (05:31):
Has been a calling for me, is that I guess I'm one
of those people who's been that way in my whole
life, that people just are like, I can open up to
you. Sometimes that's like this brilliant, uh,
exhilarating moment. And sometimes it's.
Sometimes, and especially when I was younger, it
felt like this burden that I didn't know how to
handle. It could feel overwhelmingly. So I think,

(05:55):
uh, having some training now and just more
experience, being older and more mature about it
makes uh, a huge difference yeah, well, since
we've.

>> Loren (06:03):
Talked a little bit around it, talk about like
your formative, your form of years, like what it
looked like to be a Christian in the past, what it
looks like today, in between.

>> Mike Orr (06:12):
Yeah. So my kind, uh, of faith journey. I grew up
in the church. Uh, my dad is a now honorably
retired Presbyterian pastor.

>> Loren (06:20):
Wow.

>> Mike Orr (06:22):
And uh, so grew up in church. Grew up kind of in
the fishbowl of being a. Yeah.

>> Loren (06:26):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (06:27):
And uh, so I guess I had always been one as long
as I can remember, who more people know of me than
I know of them. Like they know more about me,
people know my name than people whose names I
know. Um, and so people here in this community are
very forgiving of that, which is nice. There's a

(06:47):
lot of grace. Uh, but growing up, I think there's
always for me an awareness of spiritual things.
Always a, a sense that, uh, Christianity and then
maybe more specifically Christian community was
very important, central to our family life and
wasn't an option for us. Yeah. Uh, uh, for good or

(07:10):
for ill, you know, overall I didn't end up being
one of the really rebellious pastor's kids go kind
of either way.

>> Loren (07:16):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (07:17):
Here I am obviously talking about, uh, Christian
themes with people who are kind of like, I, for
lack of a better term, like professional
Christians. I kind of hate that idea. But here we
are. Um, when I was very young, my parents have
stories of me, I don't know, um, being spiritual.

(07:41):
I don't know if that's the right word. But it was
obvious to them that I had some sort of connection
with God. But it wasn't until I was middle school
age that I made the first kind of conscious
decision. Like I made a choice and it involved
accepting God's love.

>> Loren (07:58):
Mhm.

>> Mike Orr (08:00):
In a way that man, I don't remember even who it
was at camp, of course.

>> Loren (08:03):
Right, right, right.

>> Mike Orr (08:05):
Um, I don't even remember what they said. They
just gave us an opportunity to go off on our own.
And I remember having this moment with God that
felt realer and deeper than anything I'd
experienced up to that point. Um, and it's funny,
I tell this story sometimes because for me I kind
of point to that moment. Not that I think that
everyone has like a Paul on the road to Damascus

(08:25):
kind of moment.

>> Loren (08:26):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (08:26):
Actually almost everyone doesn't have.

>> Loren (08:28):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (08:29):
Um, but if I had to point to something that would
be, I think there are lots of tiny little steps
along the way. Uh, my brother would point to a
different moment, which is, um, I'm an older
Brother. I've got one younger brother. Uh, and I
was not a very good older brother for a lot of
years. Uh, I was mean and we fought and, uh, I was

(08:50):
unkind. Nandra, if you're listening, I'm so sorry.
And you know this. We've. You've talked, we've
talked about this. Um, and when I was 16, another
church camp thing, um, just felt God asking me
through the keynote speaker, asking me to ask God
to restore a relationship. And for me, it was

(09:10):
obvious which one that had to be. It had to be my
brother because I knew it wasn't good.

>> Loren (09:14):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (09:14):
And from that mom on, apparently, I actually don't
remember the changes. Um, I think I thought that
God would change my brother to be less annoying.

>> Loren (09:22):
Oh, man.

>> Mike Orr (09:23):
Like, uh, that's.

>> Loren (09:24):
Here's some truth right here.

>> Mike Orr (09:25):
And that is not what happened at all.

>> Loren (09:27):
Nope.

>> Mike Orr (09:28):
Uh, God softened my heart. God, uh, changed me.

>> Loren (09:31):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (09:32):
And, uh, and that's my. What's. What my brother
would point to is that when I became a Christian.

>> Loren (09:37):
Wow.

>> Mike Orr (09:37):
Very interesting. Right. And, uh, it wasn't until
a year later that I was back at that same camp. I
had this moment. I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm best
friends with my brother now.

>> Loren (09:46):
Wow.

>> Mike Orr (09:46):
Uh, fa. Constantly before that. So I've had all
these moments in my life where God has clearly
been at work that, like, the kinds of
transformation that I can't attribute to, like,
willpower.

>> Loren (09:59):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (09:59):
Or like hearing the right message changed me, but
only that God did something in my life. And that
continued as I started to do ministry, uh, in, in
the late 1990s, um, and work with young people
until. Until now. Yeah.

>> Loren (10:21):
Yeah.
So obviously you mentioned, like, being outside is
important to you. I find it fascinating just your
comment there about your spirituality not being
like your willpower, your efforts. I mean, I think
we could have an entire conversation around that,
like how much spirituality or religiosity these
days is seen as like, self built. But what, what

(10:44):
are some spiritual practices for you that kind of
like, help you stay grounded, connected.

>> Mike Orr (10:48):
It's good. Um, I have a kind of prayer and
movement practice. I don't want to sound too,
like, Eastern or anything.

>> Loren (10:59):
Sure.

>> Mike Orr (10:59):
But, uh, maybe it is kind of that. Um, for me, it
developed during the pandemic when like, as a
ministry professional just felt very lost and
overwhelmed.

>> Loren (11:09):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (11:10):
I, um, went from feeling like, uh, I really knew
what my job was and how to do it and do it.

>> Loren (11:17):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (11:18):
To not knowing what my job was or how to do it or
how to do it. Well, I Started feeling, rather than
like developing relationships with, uh, young
people and helping them to learn what it means to
follow Jesus. It felt like content creation and
online classroom management. And I was like, I did

(11:40):
not sign up for this.

>> Loren (11:42):
I did not learn this in seminary.

>> Mike Orr (11:44):
Not a seminary class. This has not been part of
any of my ongoing training.

>> Loren (11:49):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (11:49):
And so, uh, and I was having trouble sleeping. I
think a lot of us were.

>> Loren (11:53):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (11:53):
And so I developed kind of some, uh, some evening
routines that had to do with breath and prayer and
movement. And I have resisted for almost my whole
life. Anything that's kind of like rigid or
routine or, um, ritualistic. Uh, and I found that
these rigid routine rituals became this beautiful

(12:16):
life giving thing for me.

>> Loren (12:17):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (12:17):
And so I've continued with that. Um, and it feels
so intimate that I don't even talk about details.

>> Loren (12:25):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (12:25):
That is fair. So sorry, listener. Uh, uh, yeah, I
just. It feels so intimate.

>> Loren (12:31):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (12:32):
With my time with God.

>> Loren (12:33):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (12:34):
Uh, so that's one of them. Also just being out in
nature, some of those moments have been very much
just awestruck moments of God. You are so big and
so good. You've m. Made such beauty. Um, so I try
to be outside as much as possible.

>> Loren (12:52):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (12:53):
Uh, yeah. And then, you know, I guess probably
some of the other things in terms of community
that people are used to and um, whether it's Bible
reading or devotional, uh, moments, really those
other two are more primary for me now.

>> Loren (13:08):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So Mike and I
sort of began this conversation informally and
then semi formally through like a training he was
leading. And then I was like, we just got to keep
talking about this because I think it's obviously
super important to the context of Christianity and
the faith right now and I think has relevance

(13:35):
beyond what we can probably imagine.
But when I was driving over here, I want to start
the conversation with this to start us off light.
So we're around the same age. I think we went
both. Well, you studied psychology in undergrad. I
actually trained for youth ministry in undergrad
at a Bible college. But I'm curious, when you

(13:57):
think back of you were probably in that circle and
sphere of like youth ministry. Right. Like, what
are some things, like, looking back, you sort of
like laugh at and be like, what were we, what were
we doing?

>> Mike Orr (14:10):
Oh, um, man, the first, the easy one is like,
there are some games we used to play in youth
ministry that now have, like, in some cases have
been like either outlawed or banned.

>> Loren (14:18):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (14:19):
For safety issues. Like, so some of that stuff
where.

>> Loren (14:21):
It'S like why do chubby bunny, bunny, Kelly bunny.

>> Mike Orr (14:24):
That's a prime example, um, where it's like. No,
you. What, what, what? 24. Yeah, that was me. I
was a 24 year old who thought that was a great
idea. Yeah, you know, I was the, or the 21 year
old. Right, I know, right. We'll do this. My brain
was not fully developed. Um, so I think some of
those things, um, also I think, uh, we're talking

(14:46):
kind of about the 90s here. 90s and I think there
was a movement away from some things that it was
good that we moved away from, but we uh, continued
I think to be kind of emotionally coercive of our,
of our kids. Yeah, emotionally coercive in a way

(15:06):
that kind of drove them to make um, a, an emotion
based decision about God or Jesus. Fill in the
blank. Um, that we um, we set up scenarios where
there was a lot of either kind of guilt or fear.
And I think to be clear, this has not totally gone

(15:28):
away.

>> Loren (15:29):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (15:29):
This is definitely still a huge part of a lot of
ministries.

>> Loren (15:32):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (15:33):
Uh, all around me.

>> Loren (15:34):
Well, this is the second part of the question
that's coming up, but keep going.

>> Mike Orr (15:38):
So, um, those are some things a lot. Yeah, it's
like, oh man, why do we. So I'm sorry, I took the
light hearted thing.

>> Loren (15:44):
No, because this was the question, the second half
of the question I wanted to ask you.
Like in some ways the serious question is like
when we look at, I don't want to throw stones too
much here, but we kind of look at a lot of the
megachurch or big church models that are very
emotionally quasi manipulative. Do you think? Uh,

(16:04):
I've had this uh, conversation, I think with
people before. Do you think in some ways it's just
youth pastors who grew up with the same kind of
training you and I had, who've kind of just taken
that to another level, another scale.

>> Mike Orr (16:17):
Oh yeah, certainly. I mean what you teach other
than what you know.

>> Loren (16:20):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (16:20):
And how, uh, do you do a thing other than how
you've always done it or seen it done? Right,
definitely. Right. And without like really focused
and intentional intervention, then you just kind
of repeat the mistakes of the past and I mean, uh,
yeah. The emotional manipulation or whatever. I
hope nobody hears that. I'm saying that there's no

(16:40):
emotion involved.

>> Loren (16:41):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (16:42):
Spirituality or in religion or in faith.

>> Loren (16:44):
Yes.

>> Mike Orr (16:45):
Because my faith in Jesus is deeply emotional.

>> Loren (16:49):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (16:49):
Um, but I don't feel that I was coerced into it. I
don't feel like somebody manipulated me in Order
to get there. And I don't think that God is
manipulative. M. In that way. I don't think that
God coerces us at all. Um, I think God pursues us.

>> Loren (17:04):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (17:04):
And there's a difference.

>> Loren (17:06):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (17:07):
Uh, so. Yeah. I don't know if that kind of.

>> Loren (17:10):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (17:10):
Comes out the question.

>> Loren (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's helpful. Yeah. I
was just thinking about like it's kind of like
that guilt shame paradox. Right. Like I think
guilt is not necessarily a bad thing because guilt
like reminds me like this. I'm not living up to
the values that I, I claim to want to live up to.

(17:31):
But when that turns into shame then it's like well
that's, that's not helpful. And I think without
getting too into the weeds here of 90s right.
Ministry and theology or practical theology, it
was kind of shame based at least as I remember it.

>> Mike Orr (17:49):
Like definitely. Yeah. And uh, I define somebody.
I didn't come up with this, can't remember where I
got it. Um, I think of guilt as feeling bad about
something that you've done. Shame as feeling bad
about who you are.

>> Loren (18:03):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (18:03):
And um, I think it's yeah totally appropriate to
feel bad about something you've done if it was
other thing you shouldn't have done.

>> Loren (18:09):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (18:10):
Like there's all sorts of things we maybe should
feel guilty about. Um, but I don't think that
shame is usually very helpful or healthy. And um,
I mean we could get off into the weeds again you
know on ah a tangent but like part of the 90s was
purity culture and uh, shaming people about their
sexuality and um, kind of the I think natural God

(18:34):
given impulses that we have our sexuality.

>> Loren (18:37):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (18:38):
And uh, since then a lot of the prime leaders in
that movement have been like I am so sorry.

>> Loren (18:44):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (18:45):
That I, I did something bad, something evil. And
um, so that is another thing that I look back on
like man we, we put rings on about what and right.
Not that I think that there isn't a healthy way or
a healthier ways to uh, approach.

>> Loren (19:03):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (19:04):
Uh sexuality and uh romance and relationships than
uh the way that our culture typically does it.

>> Loren (19:11):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (19:11):
But man uh, like going yeah. Going hard hard way
the other way like didn't work either. So finding
a way to uh, talk well about all areas of life.

>> Loren (19:23):
Yeah. Super important.
So this kind of leads into or I'm going to force
us into some kind of like bringing this into like
your work presently with Gen Z or shout out to my
co host, Canadian co host Martha Tatarn like Gen
Z. And she would say, you know, up north, like,
when we think about. I mean, I think this was

(19:45):
something that was fascinating for me when I heard
this from you, just how different, like, the
current generations are versus, like, when we
think about classic. Uh, I feel like. Correct me
if I'm wrong, but I feel like the 90s were, like,
the heyday of youth ministry. When we think about,
was it Doug Fields and, uh, youth specialties and,

(20:06):
you know, what do you think is different? Yeah.
What do you think is different today? Especially
dealing with students, whatever terminology we
want to give them, versus when you think about,
like, the 90s.

>> Mike Orr (20:21):
Sure. Yeah. So, um, I'll add in Gen Alpha there,
too.

>> Loren (20:25):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (20:25):
Kind of Gen Z and Gen Alpha that our ministry is
working with now. And, yeah, they see the world in
a different way than most of us did in the 90s and
the generations before. Um, you and I are kind of
right around that Gen X millennial shift. M. Uh,

(20:45):
so some people call us cuspers.

>> Loren (20:48):
Oh, I've not heard that.

>> Mike Orr (20:49):
Yeah, we're born Xenians. I don't know.

>> Loren (20:52):
Yeah, Xennials. Yeah. I don't want to say what
year from. My kids are listening.

>> Mike Orr (20:58):
I avoided a 279. So, uh, I am kind of right on the
edge there.

>> Loren (21:03):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (21:03):
And we. We as Gen X Gen and. And. And millennials
kind of had this focus on kind of, like, world
changing. Like, you figure out how you're gonna
change the world and you're gonna know everything
else about what you. And the generation before us,

(21:24):
uh, kind of baby boomers had this idea that, um,
once you know who you are and what your identity
is, um, then you'll be able to kind of figure out
all these other things. And for our Gen Z and Gen
Alpha friends, it's belonging. First, who are my

(21:44):
people? Where do I belong? Uh, and then the others
flow. And so we talk about these three things, uh,
kind of intertwining. Ah, all stemming from three
of the major questions that we asked during
adolescence. Um, and that is, who am I? What am I

(22:05):
going to do with this life I've got? And where do
I belong? So it's the identity question, the, um,
kind of autonomy or purpose question, and the
belonging question. And we answer that
differently. And it turns out, and this is. I did
not invent any of this. Um, uh, Marco, uh, Marco

(22:27):
Striker gets some credit here. Chap. Clark gets
some credit here. Uh, you know, fill in a bunch.

>> Loren (22:32):
That I care about.

>> Mike Orr (22:34):
Um, basically, those who are in older generations,
like, say, boomers and older uh, and probably
older generations, Gen xers would view 3, 2 of the
tasks of adolescence through the lens of another.
We all do this. So, um, they would view belonging

(22:58):
and kind of like their purpose in life, kind of
how they're going to behave in the world through
the lens of identity. Once I knew who I am, then I
know how to behave and where I belong.

>> Loren (23:09):
Yeah. Okay.

>> Mike Orr (23:10):
And then for kind of the middle generation in our
current context and the, uh, maybe younger Gen
Xers, older millennials, maybe even maybe most
millennials would have thought of like, well, once
I know how I'm going to change the world, once I
know how I'm going to impact this planet.

>> Loren (23:30):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (23:31):
Then I know who I am.

>> Loren (23:32):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (23:33):
And then I know the people I belong to.

>> Loren (23:34):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (23:35):
And that really resonates with, with a lot of us.
Yeah. You gotta be a world changer. You gotta know
how, like, what's your cause?

>> Loren (23:42):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (23:42):
Right. And once you know that, then you know your
feet.

>> Loren (23:44):
Yeah. I feel like, I feel like you're, like you're
preaching to me right now.

>> Mike Orr (23:48):
Yeah, yeah. Um, and so if you come from a boomer
mindset or uh, an older millennial or Gen X
mindset, then you can really, really miss how an
adolescent sees the world because they view it
through belonging first. And they know who their
people are, they know their friends, they know
their kind of close knit group and that tells them

(24:10):
who they are and like what's important in the
world and how they're going to affect the world,
like what their purpose is. And so if you try to
start with one of the others, you're talking right
past them. If you don't start with belonging. And
um, a lot of churches and a lot of religious, uh,
organizations or parachurch organizations in the
past have kind of started with this idea that,

(24:32):
well, you have to believe the right things at
least. Intellectual ascent.

>> Loren (24:36):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (24:37):
Certain set of dogmatic principles. And then we
expect that you will, uh, behave a certain way.
You know, don't do the bad things, do do the good
things and then you're part of the group.

>> Loren (24:49):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (24:50):
And if we, if we do it that way with this
generation, it's a completely flat message. It's,
it's like an alien language. And so in my
ministry, it's uh, belonging first. Kids, we hope,
find a place where it can be theirs. Like, these
are their people, this is their place. And we find

(25:10):
as they do that, that they start to kind of behave
in the ways that the group expects. And we're
actually pretty vocal about our expectations about
for each other. Um, when we hold each other to
those expectations, and we find that often, not
always, but often, kids start to believe the

(25:31):
things that I believe or that we believe, that we
say we believe.

>> Loren (25:35):
Anyway.

>> Mike Orr (25:36):
Um, and it's a different paradigm for kind of how
to do community and belonging.

>> Loren (25:43):
It's a really different paradigm.
I, uh, do want to ask a question about belonging.
I was just reading this book from. I'll see if I
can get her name right. I think it's Tanya Maddox.
Tanita Maddox. Hopefully gonna have her on the pod
here soon. And she does talk about belonging.
Like, the challenge that in some sense, as she

(26:04):
understands it, among Gen Z, Gen Zed, Gen Alpha,
like, there's this sense of belonging means total
acceptance. We're not gonna ask you to change or
grow. Uh, how do you navigate that? Because you
certainly, like you said, you want to let young
people know this is a safe space. You're. You can
belong here. But also, like, I'm not going to let

(26:25):
you just, you know, be a jerk forever. Like, I'm
going to ask you to. To grow. Like, how do you
navigate that?

>> Mike Orr (26:31):
Well, growth. I think that's a great word. Um, in
Wesleyan circles.

>> Loren (26:36):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (26:37):
Uh, we talk about different movements of grace,
and one of them being sanctifying grace.

>> Loren (26:42):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (26:42):
Holy way of talking about, like, getting better.
Right. Like, we don't expect that everybody's
gonna have it all together, but there is a
wholeness. W h o Wholeness that we desire for
ourselves and for each other that comes with
maturity. And so accepting where anyone is right

(27:06):
now, but also expecting that we're moving in a
direction toward maturity, toward wholeness. And
this. I think, uh, a lot of Bible translations get
the idea they use the word perfect.

>> Loren (27:19):
Right, Right.

>> Mike Orr (27:19):
So this perfection, um, we see it in a bunch of
spots. Um, and when Jesus talks about, like, be
perfect, therefore, as your Father in heaven is
perfect. The only translation that I know that I
think gets it right, um, or gets at the whole idea
is the. The ceb. The common English Bible says,
therefore, be complete in showing love in the way

(27:40):
that your Father is complete in showing love. This
idea that perfection isn't about flawlessness, but
about completeness.

>> Loren (27:48):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (27:48):
You've got the perfect set of something. It's not
because they're undamaged or have no little
blemishes. It's because you've got the whole
thing. And so, um, belonging doesn't have to
negate or hinder or certainly, um, like, not
expect growth and growth in maturity, spiritual

(28:11):
maturity, all kinds of maturity, and Wholeness and
perfection in the idea of being more complete. So,
uh, practically speaking, I think that means, uh,
being upfront about expectations, whether it's
around behavior or kind of like. Like, we.

>> Loren (28:30):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (28:31):
Ah, there are things that are totally normal when
you're a child that would be, like, ludicrous as
an adult.

>> Loren (28:38):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (28:39):
We don't expect you to be an adult when you're a
child.

>> Loren (28:40):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (28:41):
But we do want to aim in that direction. And I
think the difference sometimes is that maybe in
some circles, there are some things about a person
that we believe are maybe bad or wrong and should
be, um, expunged, should be removed somehow, um,

(29:02):
through the life of faith or through God's work
through the Holy Spirit. Um, and maybe it depends
on the set of those things. Like, what are those
things? Um, uh, at our church and in our
denomination, we're, uh, very affirming of LGBTQ
folks. That's not true across Christendom

(29:23):
Christian circles and totally, uh, understand and
recognize that. So in some Christian circles, uh,
that maturity would mean that maybe you would
leave behind a certain identity or lifestyle, as
they would maybe say. Uh, and for me, that
wouldn't be one of the things on the list.

>> Loren (29:39):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (29:39):
I wouldn't expect you to grow out of being gay or
grow out of those kinds of things.

>> Loren (29:46):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (29:47):
Um, so I guess it kind of also means. Yeah, it
depends on, like, what you mean by acceptance or.

>> Loren (29:52):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (29:52):
Um. Yeah. Refusal to accept, like, certain kinds
of destructive behaviors I think is important, and
I think that also goes to probably people's
definition of sin.

>> Loren (30:02):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (30:03):
Like, what is.

>> Loren (30:03):
Yeah. Um, yeah.

>> Mike Orr (30:05):
Um, and how. How. How rigidly is that defined? And
I haven't fully fleshed out my thoughts on that,
so I don't have any more to say.

>> Loren (30:15):
Well, I have a subset coming out on that I'd like
you to read now. Uh, yeah. Yeah, I've been
thinking about that.
So this does lead into something that I've been
curious about. Like, just coming over here, I was
listening to a. A podcast, uh, interview podcast,
talking about, like, this quiet revival happening.
I don't know if you've heard, like, in the UK
there's. And parts of, what, Scandinavia, I guess

(30:38):
there's this. There's like. I guess legitimate
data that, like, baptisms are way up, especially
of young men. Like, we've seen these kind of
stories, I think, Right. In the states of, like,
young men coming back into church. I mean, I think
this was like. And this is kind of like, right
when I turned it off, they were talking about,

(30:58):
like, wrestling with this, like, what do you do?
Because to some extent, like, at least in the
States, it seems like young men, A, I think we
could probably agree on this, like, are, uh, kind
of in a crisis.

>> Mike Orr (31:10):
Yeah, yeah.

>> Loren (31:12):
And B, like, uh, there's some coming into church,
but I'm not. How do I say this gently? Like, I'm
not like, in love for m. Necessarily all their
motivations for. For why they're coming into
church. Like, it. It seems like in some contexts,
and I want to be too critical here, but, like, it
seems like in some contexts, like, the. The space
being offered to them is, like, strict kind of

(31:35):
like, societal, like, rules, regulations, like
traditionalism.

>> Mike Orr (31:41):
Tell me what to believe.

>> Loren (31:42):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (31:43):
Tell me what to believe. And I will hold on to
that and I'll run with it.

>> Loren (31:47):
Right. Because I'm kind of of the opinion, like, I
think. I think people, like, need some kind of,
like, scripting, but also they don't need
straitjackets. And I'm worried that what's being
presented now is almost like too much of a
straitjacket to some extent. So this is kind of a

(32:07):
long winded question, but what I'm trying to get
at is, like, have you wrestled with, like,
certainly you come across a wide variety of kids
here in your ministry here. More broadly speaking,
like, how do you wrestle with, like, you want to
be open and trust that the spirit can move in
people? Where I was also being like. I mean, is

(32:29):
that just going back to what you said, like,
expectations up front?

>> Mike Orr (32:35):
Gosh.

>> Loren (32:35):
Like, uh, like a young man comes to you and he's
like, let's be frank, he's wearing a MAGA hat and
he's like, hey, uh, you know, Charlie Kirk
inspired me to get into my faith. Like, I think we
want to be open to him, but also I can't have him
being, like.

>> Mike Orr (32:55):
Saying maybe some of the things that you. Yeah,
circles.

>> Loren (32:58):
Yes.

>> Mike Orr (32:58):
Yeah, yeah. So I think that's probably the
difference between, like, like a role model and an
authoritarian figure or, uh. Because I think I can
be an authority figure without being an
authoritarian figure.

>> Loren (33:11):
Yeah, that's good.

>> Mike Orr (33:12):
Right. And so, um, there are a number of young
people, and maybe even some not so young people
who think of me as an authority of some sort in
their lives.

>> Loren (33:21):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (33:22):
But that doesn't mean that I have to be the one
who says, here's your jacket.

>> Loren (33:26):
Right, Right.

>> Mike Orr (33:27):
Tie it on up. How can you.

>> Loren (33:29):
Thank you for playing with the metaphor with me
here.

>> Mike Orr (33:32):
So, um, we can offer different kinds of, uh, ways
of looking at faith, at spirituality, um,
following Jesus, you know, and we're talking about
Christianity here, right?

>> Loren (33:47):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (33:48):
Um, I think a lot of people, gosh, I know I have
lots of friends who either grew up in the church
or are continuing to be part of the church who
have a real hard time with the label Christian.
Right.

>> Loren (33:59):
Yeah, yeah.

>> Mike Orr (34:00):
Because it has been in many ways.

>> Loren (34:01):
Co opted by, um, political ideology. Let's just be
frank.

>> Mike Orr (34:06):
Political ideology, I think is a great, great word
for it. Um, I ran across a quote from Billy
Graham. Actually, um, I used it in another podcast
not long ago and I'm going to butcher it. I won't
completely. He, um, basically said he was very,
very deeply concerned about the idea of a marriage
between, um, Christianity, especially conservative

(34:27):
Christianity, and the political right. He said the
political right is only in it to manipulate. And
that was in 1981.

>> Loren (34:37):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (34:38):
And it feels very prescient.

>> Loren (34:40):
Prescient.

>> Mike Orr (34:41):
Uh, we like. It feels like that is what, is what
has happened. Um, and what breaks my heart so much
is seeing friends and family members and uh,
people I love who. It seems so clear to me that
there's been a manipulation happening. But they
don't see it. They see it as something more like
a, Ah, well, finally now we have, we have the

(35:03):
people in power. Now it's us. Now it's our turn.

>> Loren (35:05):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (35:06):
Um, and I, I just never felt like I've ever seen
anything in the gospels or in Paul's teachings
where it's like a, ah, now it's my turn.

>> Loren (35:16):
Now it's my turn.

>> Mike Orr (35:17):
Yeah, that's kind of this pretty almost
antithetical to the way of Jesus.

>> Loren (35:23):
I mean, uh, yeah, I, hopefully you don't mind
getting into this, but I just, I just think about
like today is. I was kind of surprised to see
this, like my old youth pastor posting on Facebook
that today's Charlie Kirk Day. I mean, is it, uh,

(35:44):
more. I don't know, I just was like, what? Yeah,
someone just said like, this is Charlie Crick
Memorial Day. And like I have, I was really like
not a fan of like, certainly the way he went about
things. Like I was even worse a fan of some of the
responses to his awful and tragic killing. But

(36:08):
also I'm kind of like troubled by this idea that
like he is being held up as like martyrs. Like,
this is idea of like what it means to be a good
Christian.

>> Mike Orr (36:20):
So curious to me as well.

>> Loren (36:21):
And um, I'm like, this is where again, I think
about me being a 40 something man and I think
about like my son, I think about other young men
and teenagers Boys. And I'm like, how do I model
for them? A healthy masculinity that. It's not
like.

>> Mike Orr (36:41):
Yeah, yeah.

>> Loren (36:42):
Like, I want them to be passionate about their
faith, but I also don't think, like, being a jerk.

>> Mike Orr (36:48):
Yeah. And that's, I think, I guess to go back to
the idea of. Yeah. Modeling role model. Ah.
Authority figure rather than authoritarian figure.

>> Loren (36:56):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (36:57):
However I want to say it, um, how can I be an
adult in the life of a young person, maybe
especially a young man, that models, um, faithful
life with Jesus?

>> Loren (37:08):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (37:09):
But isn't, um, abrasive about it? I don't know if
the word is abrasive. Um, not. I'm not trying to
indoctrinate anybody. I'm not trying to force
anything. I'm not even trying to argue anything.

>> Loren (37:27):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (37:27):
Conversations.

>> Loren (37:28):
I mean, gosh, that was like the 90s, like, wasn't
it?

>> Mike Orr (37:32):
Yeah.

>> Loren (37:32):
Like apologetics and evidence that demands a
verdict. This idea. Like, we could, like, argue
people into their faith. And I think. I think to
some extent, like, we've seen that almost that's
become like, the thing politically. The move is
like, if, If. If I can either argue you into your
changing your opinion or shame you.

>> Mike Orr (37:49):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of. There
have always been some people that have been
attracted to that.

>> Loren (37:55):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (37:55):
And modeling things. Right. And there are certain,
um, strands of Christianity, certain, um, kind of
faith traditions and theological traditions in
Christianity that lend themselves more to that
kind of. Kind of argumentative style or, um, you
know, uh, premises. Premises. Premises. You know,
like, I got a premise of. Premise of premise and

(38:16):
inclusion style. Right. Where you're like, it's
very logical. Um, I didn't. I don't see. I mean,
Paul did that maybe a little bit, but not in the
classical kind of Greek philosophy style. Uh,
Jesus didn't seem to care about that at all. Um,
and there's a. There's a. When I was in seminary,

(38:36):
I had a friend. We, uh, were having a conversation
about this kind of thing.
But, like, aren't those people just. We were
talking about this kind of, you know, movement.
Like, like, well, but if you can argue this and
you can, like, convince somebody of this thing.
I'm. Like, I said something like. But I feel like,
aren't those people just a holes?

>> Loren (38:50):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (38:51):
Like there's. There's being jerks.

>> Loren (38:53):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (38:53):
Be. Right, Right, right. And like, I think there
are other ways.

>> Loren (38:58):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (38:59):
And so I want to be. You know, maybe it's, uh, the
young man in the maga hat that you mentioned
before. Who comes and has a bunch of ideas I'm not
gonna necessarily argue those ideas with.

>> Loren (39:09):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (39:10):
Um, I think one of. Number one, it won't be fair.
Right, right. Like, and I don't mean to sound, um,
disparaging. Disparaging of a young person or to
lift myself up, but like, I've been around longer,
I've argued for longer, I have extensive
education. Um, and that I think, I mean, I don't

(39:30):
want to any listeners who like Charlie, uh, Kirk
or who are big fans to get mad. Um, and I don't
know much about him. And when people talked about
him being Christian martyr, I was like, well,
everything I saw of him, none of it seemed to be
around Christianity. It was around political
things. Which is fine.

>> Loren (39:47):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (39:47):
And the problem that I had with him wasn't his
necessarily his ideology, it was that he presented
things as honest arguments.

>> Loren (39:55):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (39:55):
And he was an elite level debater, talking with
random kids on a college campus in a way that was
kind of belittling in my, in my view. And I don't
want to be one who belittles people. I was
actually, I was talking with somebody about this
recently. And maybe I can be condescending. I can

(40:16):
be, uh, maybe, uh. You haven't seen this because
I've matured. There has been some sanctification
in my life.

>> Loren (40:23):
Well, I just laughing because I love to be
condescending. Like, I love that idea.

>> Mike Orr (40:27):
It feels great. So juicy.

>> Loren (40:29):
Yeah. When you're just like, smart, own the other
person.

>> Mike Orr (40:32):
You make somebody feel so small.

>> Loren (40:34):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (40:35):
Um, that is just so far from the way of Jesus. Um,
now, Jesus did do that with me, with the Pharisees
sometimes. Right.

>> Loren (40:43):
Like, well, isn't that, I'm sorry, jumping. But
like, isn't that it? I think in some ways because
like, like, shame to go back to this idea of like,
sometimes we do need shame. Like, like, frankly,
some of our leaders right now could use to feel
some shame about some of the actions that are
going on in our nation. Like the way they're
treating, um, immigrants.

>> Mike Orr (41:05):
The least of these.

>> Loren (41:06):
The least of these. Like, yeah, I want them to
feel some shame about that. But also, like, I
don't think we necessarily need to be shaming
everybody.

>> Mike Orr (41:15):
No, certainly not. So when I think of, like, how I
would approach a young person who I disagree with,
which happens all the time.

>> Loren (41:21):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (41:21):
We have conversations that, um, respect the
dignity.

>> Loren (41:26):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (41:26):
And uh, intellect.

>> Loren (41:29):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (41:30):
And uh, even morality of, of the person that I'm
talking with. Because when we disagree with
someone, especially about something, they really
carry about, care about. It seems like there are a
small handful of kind of go to reactions we have
and that is that, oh, well, if you don't think the
way I do, then you must either be stupid.

>> Loren (41:51):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (41:51):
You can't comprehend it on the level that I can
comprehend. Um, maybe you're evil.

>> Loren (41:57):
Mhm.

>> Mike Orr (41:58):
And you just have decided that, you know, this is
bad and you like it anyway, or that you're like
crazy, you're like mentally unwell.

>> Loren (42:07):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (42:08):
And almost none of those are ever actually true.

>> Loren (42:10):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (42:11):
And they always dehumanize, always make someone
else smaller.

>> Loren (42:16):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (42:16):
And so I think, I think if you asked most of my
kids, uh, when I say my kids, I mean the students
that I work with, I think they would say that they
feel respected, that I think of them as a real
whole human person, not like a person in training
or like a, ah, partial person who will one day be

(42:37):
a real adult.

>> Loren (42:38):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (42:39):
I think of every human as like a real whole human
being. And starting with that would be very
disarming as well. Not that my intention is to get
past somebody's defenses, but certainly if we're
going to have a meaningful relationship or
conversation, there can't be huge walls between
us.

>> Loren (42:55):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (42:56):
And so, uh, starting with that, like basic dignity
and respecting somebody's, uh, position and
talking about it in a way that is, uh, doesn't
bring up more defenses can be I think, really
helpful. So for a young man who maybe disagrees
with me politically or theologically or whatever,
that doesn't mean we can't have a great

(43:17):
conversation and learn from each other.

>> Loren (43:19):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (43:19):
Because that's the other thing, man. And I know
I've said this to you before, I work with
adolescents and they haven't been to seminary
corrupted by theological education. Um, they
haven't, um, been studying the Bible for as long
as I have. They haven't been, um, I don't know,

(43:40):
having deep conversations about spirituality and
faith as long as I have. And I learn something
from them every single time. Every time. Because
they have insights that I've never had before or
never would have had before, never could in the
future.
Because they're a different person. Um, or maybe

(44:02):
they remind me of an insight or something that I
held dear that I've kind of like just kind of
forgotten or.

>> Loren (44:09):
Yeah, yeah.

>> Mike Orr (44:10):
And when you believe, when you trust that it is
true that the youngest person, the least
experienced person in your life can say something
to you that is more deeply true than you were
holding onto before, that changes the game.

>> Loren (44:26):
Yeah, it does.

>> Mike Orr (44:28):
And it Changes the kind of, like, in my. In my
experience, the kind of ministry that I do.

>> Loren (44:34):
Yeah, this is good stuff.
Uh, two more questions I want to do before we move
on to closing questions. You talked about, like,
building a wall. Like, I want to give some. Some
time here. When I think about. We talked about
young men. I want to think about young women.
Like, the data that I've seen is, like, the young
men and young women are kind of on these. I won't
say polar opposite, but certainly have this kind

(44:55):
of opposite trend lines happening of probably
again, broad brushing here. Young men kind of
leaning more conservative. Young women kind of
leading more liberal or progressive. Like, what.
How have you seen that? How do you. How do you
minister to that? And then, like, uh, I kind of
think even. How do you. Speaking of walls, like,

(45:17):
tear that down? Because, like, I think to some
reason, like, we need, for the sake of
relationships, tear down some walls. Yeah. Come
together, man. I mean, I'm just so glad that I
have not. Like, I didn't. Like, I don't have to
navigate the dating field like, now.

>> Mike Orr (45:32):
I'm very happy about that. Um, gosh, I mean, I do
see the differences. And, um, when I talk with
young people, I don't see too many young women who
are leaning hard. Right. Uh, and I don't see as
many young men who are leaning harder left. Like,

(45:54):
I see it anecdotally from experience, and I've
seen the numbers. Um, I think to some degree, all
that stuff ends up being a little bit exaggerated.

>> Loren (46:04):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (46:05):
I mean, we are all more than answers on a survey.

>> Loren (46:10):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (46:10):
Right.

>> Loren (46:10):
Yeah, that's a good point.

>> Mike Orr (46:11):
Every human. And I don't mean to, like, say that
it's not worth looking at.

>> Loren (46:15):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (46:15):
But we all have so much more to us than our stance
on an issue. We all have so much more to us than,
um, kind of any type of label.

>> Loren (46:32):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (46:32):
And so, um, getting to those things, like, and
it's not just like, well, find things we have in
common. Yeah, that, of course there's m. That, um.
But just seeing people as more than their, like,
most aberrant view. In your opinion. Right.

>> Loren (46:48):
And that's really like, what, I don't know, social
media algorithms. Whatever has done to us is
saying, like, you are your. Your top label or
identity. Right.

>> Mike Orr (46:57):
Yep, Yep. Or, uh, algorithms that.

>> Loren (47:00):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (47:01):
This podcast into your feed.

>> Loren (47:02):
Yeah. I mean, bless this algorithm if you're
listening, but.

>> Mike Orr (47:06):
Yeah. Right. But on the other hand, there is an
echo chamber.

>> Loren (47:10):
Right, Right.

>> Mike Orr (47:11):
So having a way to, like, dampen the echoes.

>> Loren (47:14):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (47:14):
And Bring people together. Um, I mean, we have
young men and young women in our group, and that
helps with conversation.

>> Loren (47:22):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (47:22):
Kind of seeing and hearing, uh, opinions. And we
can respectfully disagree or we can, um, maybe
even push on when we. We hear something that we're
like, I don't know about that We. We have a space.
We've created a culture where every question is
okay.

>> Loren (47:42):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (47:43):
Um, every question is actually welcome. That we,
um. That there's nothing off limits, that we can
talk about anything. Um, but we do it in a way
that honors other people and I hope demonstrates
the love that Jesus has for all of us and that
then we have for each other. So I think that's

(48:03):
part of it. Um, I decided long ago that I don't
want to be in the business of indoctrination. Uh,
that I will not do that. And so I'm not
necessarily in the business of, like, changing
kids into believing just what I do about things.

>> Loren (48:21):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (48:22):
I'm much more interested in. And I've found to be
much more effective, I think, to help young people
to begin to own their own faith, to explore what
it is they believe now and what. How those beliefs
are, uh, developing.

>> Loren (48:41):
Well, let's move into this, because I did want to
talk about this. This idea of, like, I think we've
talked about this before. This idea that
deconstruction to some extent, like, it is
inevitable.

>> Mike Orr (48:51):
Yeah.

>> Loren (48:52):
So you talk about helping kids own and explore,
like, versus indoctrinate. Like, how have you seen
that play out? When you think about, like, kids
who graduated youth ministry on college and young
adulthood, like, what does that look like?

>> Mike Orr (49:09):
Yeah. Um, I think there's, you know, there's a lot
of hand wringing about, you know, stats and
numbers about kids.

>> Loren (49:17):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (49:18):
Graduating, um, from church.

>> Loren (49:19):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (49:20):
From high school. And I, uh, think there will
probably always be some level of that.

>> Loren (49:25):
Right. Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (49:26):
When you have full autonomy in your life.

>> Loren (49:29):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (49:30):
Or a level you never had before, you're gonna make
different decisions than you did before or than
your parents did for you. Natural, normal,
probably even healthy.

>> Loren (49:38):
Yeah. Right.

>> Mike Orr (49:38):
Um, what I see is I, uh. I have actually really
good relationships with many hundreds of kids who
have come through, um, the programs that I lead or
the ministries that I'm a part of. And a lot of
them come back and say. And that is not to toot my
own horn, but say thank you for the way that you

(50:00):
gave space for me to kind of develop my own faith.
I didn't feel like I had to ascribe to a certain
set of Doctrines and that gave me the freedom to
actually come back as uh, a young adult, um, and

(50:20):
find Jesus in a new way. Um, I've got one, one
young woman now who talks about that, uh, every
time I talk to her, um, and young men as well. And
uh, it's an honor to have that kind of impact, uh,
on a person. And I don't know, maybe if I had a

(50:42):
different approach to ministry where it was more
rigid or more, maybe there would be even more. But
I don't think so because what it seems to me is
that when, when the answers that were kind of
spoon fed to you don't work anymore.

>> Loren (50:57):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (50:58):
Because anything that's spoon fed is just too
simple, right?

>> Loren (51:01):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (51:01):
Um, if you're just given answers or just given
kind of, I don't know, like a rigid worldview, as
soon as something comes up against it.

>> Loren (51:11):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (51:12):
Then it starts to fall apart. It starts to
shatter.

>> Loren (51:14):
Yep.

>> Mike Orr (51:15):
And if you don't have, if I don't give somebody
tools.

>> Loren (51:18):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (51:18):
To think about this stuff on their own.

>> Loren (51:21):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (51:21):
And to develop their own way of, of having a
relationship with a living God who I believe is
real and really here in this moment, even with
these microphones in between us. Um, then, then
I'm just passing on something that was passed on
to me. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but

(51:44):
it's just like a photocopy. Right.

>> Loren (51:46):
Okay, we gotta, we gotta do this because I know
we're supposed to move on a clear of closing
questions, but I, I gotta ask you this. Like to me
like what you're saying is like. Yes, yes. And I
think like I have a teenager and I'm like
terrified. She's awesome, but like I want her to

(52:07):
have a faith.

>> Mike Orr (52:08):
Mhm.

>> Loren (52:09):
Like that's like hugely important.

>> Mike Orr (52:13):
Yeah.

>> Loren (52:14):
And I'm like, I find myself having to like, I feel
like do this battle or tension or of like how much
do I, I don't want to say force feed or spoon
feed, but kind of like grease the wheels. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And then also like give her space.

(52:35):
So I mean, one thing we were going to talk about,
and I suppose this can be it, like is like where
does family, where do parents play on the faith?
Like how do you, I mean, hey, I'm asking for me
more than anybody.

>> Mike Orr (52:47):
Like uh, like, oh man, once I, once I figure this
all out, you'll be publishing.

>> Loren (52:52):
You'll have that book published.

>> Mike Orr (52:54):
Yeah, man, I've had so many books, I've thought of
writing.

>> Loren (52:56):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (52:57):
I ain't got the time, man. Uh, so man, parents.
This. All the studies point. And you shared an
article with me recently. Um, all the studies
point to parents as being the primary faith
influence in their children's. This is. I don't
think it's refutable. I think it is true. Um, does

(53:19):
that mean that you are, like, point by point,
teaching? No, I don't think so. I think you're
modeling into your life. It's your faith that is
going to make the difference. And saying the right
words isn't going to hurt. But they're totally
secondary. The words are totally secondary to the
way that you live out your faith in. In broad

(53:40):
view. Right. Um, and I think that's also true for
any of us.

>> Loren (53:44):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (53:44):
Church. It's just that for, for your kids.

>> Loren (53:47):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (53:48):
You are the one that they're looking at.

>> Loren (53:50):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (53:52):
And that mean that puts some pressure on. Right?
Because, like, it's not just like, say the right
thing at the right time.

>> Loren (53:58):
And, like, I can farm it all off to Mike or my
youth pastor.

>> Mike Orr (54:01):
You shouldn't.

>> Loren (54:02):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (54:02):
Man, let's not, like, let's not farm it out. Let's
not, um, hire somebody to do the spiritual
babysitting.

>> Loren (54:09):
Yeah, right.

>> Mike Orr (54:10):
Um, that's, that's also super damaging. And so,
like, in that article you sent, it talked a lot
about, like, well, you know, youth ministry
doesn't do the thing. It's like, why are we even
bothering? And he, uh, came from a very particular
mindset. And I respect, uh, those who say, say
those kinds of things because I think we need to
hear it.

>> Loren (54:29):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (54:29):
Like, what is youth ministry for anyway? And, um,
if it's simply, um, cloning, like spiritual
clones, then youth ministry is absolutely failing.
And in my view, youth ministry is not creating
spiritual clones.

>> Loren (54:46):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (54:47):
It's, um, developing people who have their own
unique relationship with their creator.

>> Loren (54:56):
Taking this back to the beginning, when we're
thinking about 90s youth ministry, do you think
that's an important change has happened? Because,
like, I think about, like, I don't know about you,
Mike, but I feel like the, the, the dream, every
youth ministers, youth pastor's dream was to like,
I'm gonna have like, a booming youth group with
like, our own separate M. Ministry, like mini

(55:19):
church, all that stuff. Like, I, uh, don't know if
that's tracking for you, but, like, is that, like,
when I think of cloning, it's like, I'm just gonna
clone this separate group of believers. And I feel
like what you're trying to do, what you're talking
about is this idea of, like, we're going to be
working with small group within the church. I

(55:40):
don't know if that. If that metaphor makes sense.
Like, it's not going to be.

>> Mike Orr (55:43):
Yeah. Some experts have talked about it as, like,
a disintegration with, uh, youth ministry, and
then actually other kinds of ministries followed.
Youth ministries happen to be the first to do it.

>> Loren (55:53):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (55:54):
Ended up becoming this kind of like, mostly
disconnected blob.

>> Loren (55:57):
Siloed.

>> Mike Orr (55:58):
They connected.

>> Loren (55:58):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (55:59):
Siloed.

>> Loren (55:59):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (56:00):
Um, to the church. And it served really no one.

>> Loren (56:03):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (56:04):
Because, um, like, kids were off doing their own
thing. Um, and that's not where you learn what it
means. Like, we talked about it a few times, like,
to. To model what it means to be an adult who
follows Jesus is basically what I want our youth
ministry to do.

>> Loren (56:23):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (56:24):
Is for kids to have contact with each other. Of
course.

>> Loren (56:27):
Right, right.

>> Mike Orr (56:27):
Learn from each other, but also to see what it
looks like to follow Jesus as an adult. In
addition to their parents right now, we also have
kids who are part of our youth group who don't
have parents who follow Jesus. For them, we're it.
Right, right. Um, and for those who are lucky
enough to have two parents who follow Jesus.

(56:47):
Right. So they have two parents, and hopefully 5,
6, 7, 8, 9, 10 other adults they know really well
who are following Jesus and they know what it
looks like in their lives. And so it's not all on
the parents, but it's also not all on, like, you
know, falling out to, you know, a spiritual

(57:08):
advisor of some sort who gets paid to do fun games
and pizza.

>> Loren (57:11):
And I. Yeah, I sort of wonder if, like, we've. We
should. We should transition on this.
Like, I just read Malcolm, uh, Gladwell's book the
Tipping Point, which is some years old, but, like,
his point is, like, context. It's not everything,
but it's more than we think about. And I. I'm just
wondering if, like, that's what we've

(57:31):
misidentified what youth ministry is for. It's
like. It's more about providing context rather
than, like, pumping out products, man.

>> Mike Orr (57:42):
I think that's. Isn't that the church, too?

>> Loren (57:45):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (57:46):
Right.

>> Loren (57:46):
I mean, you're not wrong.

>> Mike Orr (57:48):
And, like, to some degree, I feel it deep level,
like, uh, is what I'm doing in this very moment,
in this second, pumping out a product? Is it a.
And that's not to, like. I love this podcast.

>> Loren (58:00):
No, I know, I know. Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (58:03):
I feel this tension all the time.

>> Loren (58:04):
Yeah. Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (58:05):
We live in a consumer.

>> Loren (58:06):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (58:07):
Where I feel the pressure all the.

>> Loren (58:08):
Time, producing Content to create.

>> Mike Orr (58:10):
To produce content. To create a good program.

>> Loren (58:12):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (58:12):
That I can send my kids to.

>> Loren (58:14):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (58:14):
Where they're going to learn the right things to
become, uh, good people. Yeah, good people or
whatever it is, or reach some sort of faith
milestone.

>> Loren (58:22):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (58:22):
Check a box that gets them into heaven. Yeah,
yeah. Um, and I try to live my life and live in
ministry in a way that is. That is just not the
case. That we're not pumping out a product, that
it's not a consumer commodity. Um, but it's hard
because we live in a consumer commodity culture.

>> Loren (58:45):
Uh, and I'm going to ask you some of these closing
questions here. And I've kind of tweaked this last
question. So if you're like youth ministry Pope, I
mean, you're not Pope Leo, but you're, you know,
youth ministry pope.

>> Mike Orr (58:56):
I can answer both, by the way.

>> Loren (58:57):
Okay, okay, give me both. What are you doing for
that day?

>> Mike Orr (59:01):
Oh, man. Uh, well, youth ministry Pope and I would
get a. Get rid of any game, youth group game that
embarrasses a kid.

>> Loren (59:12):
Oh, love it. Like I'm m. Signing up tomorrow for
that. Right, like that papal. Papal bull. Right?

>> Mike Orr (59:18):
Yeah, yeah. Because, because look, man, there's.
There have been, there's been a tradition in youth
ministry. It's still happening in some schools.
There are these games where it's like, I don't
know if they start scar the kids necessarily, but
like, we can have a lot of fun together, right? We
can do a lot of things that build each other up
right out. Uh, anybody feeling like, weird? I had

(59:40):
a lesson. That's awkward.

>> Loren (59:41):
That's enough awkwardness.

>> Mike Orr (59:43):
Like we like. My whole, you know, my philosophy
around games and kind of how we play well together
is, is very different. So that's what.

>> Loren (59:50):
That's the first thing that's good.

>> Mike Orr (59:52):
Uh, but if I was Pope. Pope, uh, like women in
ministry ordain women of Greece. Just like that.

>> Loren (59:58):
Let's do it.

>> Mike Orr (59:59):
That's what we do.

>> Loren (01:00:00):
I like both of those. Um, let's see, quickly, a
theologian, historical figure.

>> Mike Orr (01:00:06):
I mean, the one that always comes to mind is C.S.

>> Loren (01:00:08):
Lewis. Okay.

>> Mike Orr (01:00:10):
Yeah, I would have dinner with that guy. And man,
we just have. I mean, I would. I'm sure I'd feel
very, very dim witted for most of the time. I
think he'd be so fascinating to talk to.

>> Loren (01:00:22):
Something I've heard about CS Lewis is that he was
kind of rough around the edges and I feel like I
could appreciate that about. Yeah, yeah. Um,
something history. Uh, history. What do you think
History will remember from our current time and
place. Ah.

>> Mike Orr (01:00:37):
Uh, gosh, I mean, this is hard to answer because
it feels like even just five years ago, we'd have
been like, oh, man, the political division. And if
only five years ago, people could see us now.

>> Loren (01:00:46):
Yeah. Um. Yeah, because even today, we're like,
Covid, what was that?

>> Mike Orr (01:00:49):
Yeah, right. I know. So I think there's a. When it
comes to Christianity, at least, I think there's a
movement toward Christian nationalism that I think
will be remarked upon by history.

>> Loren (01:01:01):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (01:01:02):
Um, and this is cyclical. Like, this happens. This
comes and goes. Not the first time, it won't be
the last.

>> Loren (01:01:07):
Right.

>> Mike Orr (01:01:08):
Um, but eventually we realize how, uh, dangerous
and damaging it is to the nation and to the
Christian.

>> Loren (01:01:19):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (01:01:20):
Um, that to go so far from what I see as the way
of Jesus, um, I think it'll. I think it'll be
remarkable. I think we'll. We'll be talking about
it, and maybe, uh, I'll have young people being
like, is it true we did this? Yep.

>> Loren (01:01:39):
Grandpa Mike. Or, uh, volunteering and youth
ministry just retired. What do you hope then for
the future of Christianity? Or maybe even, like,
um. Let me say it this way. Like, when I was in
youth ministry, I remember, like. Or no, when I
was. When I was a kid in youth ministry, I

(01:02:01):
remember, like, this youth pastor saying to me,
like, I don't want to be the next Billy. Billy.
No, um, Moody.

>> Mike Orr (01:02:09):
Yeah. Yeah.

>> Loren (01:02:10):
What was his first name? No, whatever his name.
Moody. He didn't want to be the next Moody. Uh,
great evangelist for revivalist, for a non. Maybe
conservative listeners. He wanted to be, like, the
youth pastor of, like, the next Dwight L. Moody.

>> Mike Orr (01:02:27):
Yes. Very good.

>> Loren (01:02:29):
Thank you. Like what? Like, I don't know. We're.

>> Mike Orr (01:02:34):
Again, like, for me, um, I think.

>> Loren (01:02:37):
Of what gives you hope about the kids in your
youth ministry right now.

>> Mike Orr (01:02:42):
Oh, I have so much hope. Oh, friends, if you're.
Listen. If you. If you listened all the way till
now, I have so much hope. Uh, teenagers are, ah,
so amazing, and this generation is so amazing.
And, uh, there's some scriptures that talk about
kind of like what, uh, heaven is like or kind of
like what, um, the kingdom of God is like. And it

(01:03:04):
talks about kind of, you know, every nation, every
nationality, every ethnic group, every language.
Everybody's gonna be present kind of at this big
banquet table. So imagine this giant table. And
like most of our kids, it, uh, feels like they're
ready for that. They're more open to it than so
many adults. So my hope for the future of

(01:03:25):
Christianity is that we continue to just pull up
more chairs to the table that we keep on. We gotta
add another leaf or build a bigger room to hold
the table. And I know for the introverts among us,
that sounds terrible. Um, think of it as a
metaphor.

>> Loren (01:03:41):
Mike is talking to me in case the listeners.

>> Mike Orr (01:03:44):
Well, you know, uh, we know each other.

>> Loren (01:03:47):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (01:03:47):
Um, this. It doesn't. It's the idea of. It's for
everyone.

>> Loren (01:03:53):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (01:03:54):
And if you have a hard time being at a table with
someone who's not like you, then you're gonna feel
pretty hot under the collar.

>> Loren (01:04:04):
Yeah.

>> Mike Orr (01:04:05):
In the kingdom of God.

>> Loren (01:04:06):
Yeah. Good stuff. Good stuff. Well, I gotta run,
unfortunately. And I appreciate this conversation.
Uh, we always leave folks with the word of peace
on our podcast and we get to do it in person.
Mike, may God's peace be with you.

>> Mike Orr (01:04:19):
And also with you. Thanks for joining us on the
Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian
Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to
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comments, and ideas for future episodes. Visit our

(01:04:40):
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>> Loren (01:04:56):
Thanks.

>> Mike Orr (01:04:56):
And go in PE.