February 18, 2025 • 66 mins
What does it mean to lead in weakness rather than strength? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. Andrew Draper, co-author of Disabling Leadership: A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of Christ. Together, they explore how the church can redefine leadership away from power, charisma, and productivity toward humility, inclusion, and community-driven authority. Andrew shares insights from his work in disability theology, church leadership, and reconciliation, discussing how leadership must embrace human limitation and interdependence rather than seeking control or dominance. They also dive into the challenges of deconstruction and critical theory, why Christian nationalism and secular humanism are both flawed responses to uncertainty, and how churches can better align their practices with their values of inclusion.
Rev. Dr. Andrew T. Draper is the Executive Director of Winebrenner Theological Seminary in Findlay, OH. He is also teaching pastor at Urban Light Community Church in Muncie, IN. He has authored numerous books and articles on race, disability, and the church. Dr. Draper holds a PhD in theological ethics from the University of Aberdeen and an MDiv from Winebrenner Theological Seminary.
Relevant Links:
www.facebook.com/AndrewThomasDraper
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend
Dr. Nandra T. Draper to the
program. Nandra is founding
teaching pastor at Urban Light Community
Church in Luncie, Indiana,
and adjunct theology faculty
at Anderson School of Theology and
(01:05):
Weinbrenner Seminary. He is the author of
A Theology of Race and Place, Christian
Mission and Poverty, and numerous
articles on race, disability, and the
church. A reminder. Before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
(01:25):
share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on
Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of
(01:46):
the church.
>> Loren (01:56):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
welcoming Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper. So
welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
>> Andrew Draper (02:07):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
>> Loren (02:09):
Yeah, great to have you. Anything else you want our listeners
to know about you?
>> Andrew Draper (02:15):
I grew up in Ohio. I've lived most of my life
in the Midwest. Um, for the last
20 years, have been involved in community
development work in a local parish in
Indiana that is committed
to, uh, reconciliation and justice
work locally. Uh,
most recently, I am
(02:37):
working for our denominational seminary,
Weinbrenner Theological Seminary in Ohio.
Uh, I'm there a couple days a week and then back in
Muncie working virtually the rest of the week and
just pastoring part time.
>> Loren (02:51):
Give me, like, a Midwestern nice
phraseology. That's the cliche, right?
>> Andrew Draper (02:57):
It is. That's the cliche.
>> Loren (02:59):
What's it? Is that true or is that, like,
overstated?
>> Andrew Draper (03:03):
Um, I think it's true in the sense
that, you know,
if you run into somebody
or head toward the same direction that someone
else is going, you fall all over yourself
to apologize. Oh, I'm sorry, my bad.
You, you go ahead. If somebody else steps in
(03:23):
front, you go, oh, no worries.
Um, we say. We say,
oh, A lot and we don't even realize it.
Something, um, will happen. You'll go ope,
which, uh, isn't really a word, but everyone sort of knows what it
means. Um, you also can't
turn down an invitation in the
(03:44):
Midwest straightforwardly. You have to say, oh,
let me check my schedule and get back with you.
That just basically means you're never going to get back with the
person.
>> Loren (03:54):
Well, thank you for not, uh, turning
down my schedule request here.
>> Andrew Draper (04:00):
Yeah. If I had replied with hey Loren,
I appreciate it, let's connect sometime,
that would have been a hard no.
>> Loren (04:08):
Okay, good to know. Good to know.
Share if you would, just a little about your faith
background, what that looks like, uh, in the past and what
that looks like today.
>> Andrew Draper (04:20):
So I grew up in an evangelical
tradition, the Churches of God, but it's an older
evangelical tradition before the culture
wars of the
fundamentalist modernist divide
in the early 20th century.
So uh, we grew out of
a revivalist and social reform
(04:42):
movement. Uh, so
some, um, of the key focuses were on
evangelism, um, a
high view of the scriptures, but then also,
uh, abolition of the slave trade,
(05:03):
anti war, uh,
ordination of women was a key
factor as early as the 1850s.
Um, so there's a, there's a bit
more nuance in our history perhaps than some of
the more modern
reformed evangelicalism that we, that we tend to
think of, uh, when. And I've appreciated my
(05:25):
roots more over recent years because in, in
as a young adult I went through quite a process of
what, what today they call deconstruction and being
pretty, um, disillusioned
with the church in a lot of ways,
um,
and wanting uh, a more holistic faith
(05:45):
focused on justice, uh, a
more inclusive table,
um, a more diverse
experience of the faith. Um,
and yet in recent years there's
much of my
upbringing and the
(06:06):
strong ah, focus on the uh,
centrality of Jesus and the scriptures
that has been of increasing importance to me
in recent years. So, um,
I'm probably not quite in as much of
a, uh,
uh, you know, what, what in the academy we would call a
hermeneutic of suspicion as I might have been at one point.
(06:29):
Although I still think, uh,
that there's a lot to be gained from
asking the hard questions and deconstructing, uh,
harmful theology.
>> Loren (06:42):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, uh, share if you would, anything,
anything you want about spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines
that are meaningful for you.
>> Andrew Draper (06:54):
So that was one of the pieces that was
probably lacking in my evangelical
upbringing. Uh, we were all about
uh, the conversion experience,
but then didn't really know what to do with people
once they were in the church. We knew kind
of what we could articulate what we were saved from,
(07:15):
perhaps, uh, in terms of what we were
against, but maybe not so much what we were
saved for. And so,
um, contemplative
spiritual practices have been very important to me in
the last couple decades.
Um, lectio divina,
(07:35):
other ways of engaging with the text in
a contemplative, reflective
manner. Mhm. Journaling,
even images and iconography has been
important to me at various times.
Uh,
(07:56):
you know, I've tried to have disciplines of
fasting at different times and, and I'm, I'm not
real great at it. And so what I've tried to do is to
focus instead on um,
things that I can give up for a
period that help me be more balanced,
uh, so that I don't slip into legalism because
(08:16):
that's always a
temptation. Um,
is, is for my faith to kind of be
crushed by something that I feel is legalistic.
So
um, different disciplines
at different times are helpful. Solitude,
uh, rest,
(08:37):
worship, rejoicing, all of those
components have been life giving to me over the years.
>> Loren (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that.
So let's talk about, uh, Nandra is the
co author of the book Disabling
A, uh, Practical Theology for the Broken
Body of Christ. Why don't you begin
by talking about. Nandra is a co author here. So why don't
you share about your co authors here and then
(09:04):
just talk about kind of what brought the book about.
>> Andrew Draper (09:07):
There are three of us who wrote the book
together. My two co
authors are Jody,
Michelle and Andrea May.
We have been part of the same
local faith community
for probably 15 to 20
years.
(09:30):
We are each part of the disability
community in various
ways.
And several years
ago we recognized together
some of the limitations
in how our framework of
(09:51):
reconciliation conceived of
inclusion of people with disabilities.
Being a justice oriented church,
we had focused quite a bit on
ethnic diversity and socioeconomic
diversity,
um, working
toward connecting people with
(10:13):
resources and alleviation of poverty and things like
that. And
our congregation was inclusive of people with
disabilities, but in
our more explicit framework
we uh, weren't thinking perhaps as
a church in a real
robust manner
(10:35):
about what it means to be a
diverse body in terms of abilities.
And so we um,
had each had our
own work in this area.
Um, my PhD is in theological
ethics and I had done a lot of work in theological anthropology.
(10:55):
And so some of that like basically what does it mean to
be human?
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:59):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (11:00):
And so a lot of that work
overlaps with Conversations
in disability Theology.
Um, I am textbook, um,
obsessive compulsive. Uh, my wife has several
rheumatological conditions, and one of our sons is
autistic. Um, my mother has
dementia. And so we, uh,
(11:23):
we're used to thinking,
uh, deeply and carefully about theology and practice
in terms of disability in our family.
Uh, Jody, uh, is
a disability activist,
author, and consultant,
uh, who has cerebral palsy.
Um, Andrea
(11:45):
has three children with profound disabilities
and has worked in special
education. Uh,
so the three of us, uh, came
together and realized that we could take some of the work that we
were doing independently from one another
and
incorporate
(12:07):
themes, uh, of justice and reconciliation
into disability theology from the perspective of
local congregations.
>> Loren (12:16):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that background.
I, uh, think it is really interesting the way y'all are able to
weave together your different perspectives
and backgrounds, um, into the
book. I want to jump in
to some of the points you make. You know, you talked
earlier in your introduction kind of about a
hermeneutic of suspicion. And I think
(12:38):
one of the things that was interesting, I really found
interesting, at least in the book, was the way that
you talk. Y'all talked about
the benefits and limits of things like, you know,
deconstruction, critical theory. So I want
to just read a couple quotes here. You know, early on,
you say that while we appreciate critical studies for the way
(12:58):
it helps us name certain power structures as
idolatry, critical studies alone does
not sow the seeds of new life.
Um, similarly, you.
You write, you do not fear. We do
not fear or demonize critical studies, nor do
we end in deconstruction alone.
(13:19):
Um, and I think. I feel like there's another quote. I can't
find it, about deconstructing not
being an end of itself. Um, talk
about how you all have.
Because, I mean, certainly. Right. We're in
a cultural context in a moment
where things like deconstruction, critical
(13:40):
theory, especially in more conservative spaces,
have been seen as, you know,
as horrific and problematic to
church and the faith. Um, how
have you all been able to find
some kind of balance or tension or
nuance? Yeah,
navigating that.
>> Andrew Draper (14:02):
Well, I mean, first, we could say
that any
faith, uh, that does
not contain elements of
doubt is not
faith in the thickest sense of the term.
We're not looking for rational certainty
as believers.
>> Loren (14:23):
Um.
>> Andrew Draper (14:25):
Uh, I mean, the church
has always said that, historically, has
always said that the way we know about
God is because of God's revelation to us,
not because of our
apprehension of God in an empirical
sense. Right. Uh,
(14:47):
so if we are reliant on divine
revelation, then our knowledge is
limited. I mean the scriptures talk this way. We see through a glass
darkly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:56):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (14:57):
The best we can know is
uh,
is a discombobulated
picture of the truth. Right. We, we don't have access
to all truth, uh, in an
epistemological way, in, in a way that we know.
We, we say that we believe
(15:18):
that there is one who is truth
and that the truth is revealed
to us by that one. So all
that to say that deconstruction is
necessary. It's always been a
part of the work that the people of God have done. I
mean from the Tower of Babel being
(15:38):
erected as a, ah, model
of um,
human productivity and
ingenuity,
uh, to wanting a
king instead of God
or uh, building a temple even
though the Lord said that he could not
(15:59):
be, uh, confined to a place built by human hands.
Right. The people of God have
always torn down things,
including within their own midst, have always torn down
false idols and false altars. That's
always been part of faith.
Uh, and if we can't look critically at our own
(16:20):
idols and the things
that we have built up that
uh, are problematic in our own theological
systems,
um, then we're not
participating in the
history of faith in a thick sense. We're, we're just kind of
slapping a veneer of
(16:41):
certainty onto some other kind of project. And,
and that's why it's so easy for
Christian nationalism or
um, secular humanism
to be where people land.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:55):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (16:55):
Uh, when they start to be
uncomfortable with
um, walking in the path of
uncertainty. So critical studies has been super
helpful. Um, you know,
we, we as moderns need
hermeneutic of suspicion if we're going to be led into all truth.
We need to be able to look at things
(17:16):
critically, including our own assumptions.
Um,
you know, so, so critical studies,
uh, you, you know, sometimes people just say well that's
Godless and Marxist.
>> Loren (17:31):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (17:32):
But
you know,
any philosophy that looks
at
power structures and imbalance of power
and critiques it and
demonstrates uh,
(17:53):
how power corrupt.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:55):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (17:56):
Um is not an enemy of
faith, even if some of its
proponents at times are outwardly
atheistic or whatever the case might be.
>> Loren (18:07):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (18:08):
Um, so, so I, I don't really
understand the. To
me it's more certainty and
fundamentalism that lead
to rejection of the faith than
some kind of
stance, uh, of, of critical,
(18:30):
uh, critical reflection.
>> Loren (18:32):
Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I
know we have more to cover and this is not Primarily what the book
is. But I feel like this is an important point, at least
from my perspective, because I think
you're dead on about the two
extremes being like, one side
going all into Christian nationalism and
(18:52):
the other side going just all into secular
humanism. How,
how do you advise folks to kind of
walk the middle, hold the tension?
Whatever analogy we want to use there.
>> Andrew Draper (19:08):
Yeah. For
me, what's been helpful is reading the church
mothers and fathers. M. A,
uh, because
many.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:21):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (19:21):
Especially the Eastern mothers and fathers do not fall
into the
bifurcated camps or silos
that we tend to think of today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:32):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (19:32):
Uh, it cuts
the tradition of Christian faith. Cuts across the
ideological spectrum.
>> Loren (19:39):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (19:40):
So A, I would say that. B,
the, uh, other thing that's been incredibly helpful for me
is listening, uh,
to. And reading
non, uh, white authors,
women, uh, and disabled
authors who
(20:04):
consistently talk about the need
for justice. M. And so,
um, I'm a fan of reading
liberation theology.
Um, obviously.
Um, just like I'm saying we don't take
anything on,
(20:24):
um, completely. There are
presuppositions in all different texts that I
might have some distance on.
Um, so don't, you know, I don't want people to hear
what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that
every single, I mean, liberation theology, for instance,
is such a broad.
>> Loren (20:42):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (20:43):
Uh, category that to simply stand
back and go, oh, well, it's all kind of this
Marxist materialist mess is really
a misunderstanding of the holistic
points that many authors are working
to make. And so, you know, people like Gustavo
Gutierrez and James Cone.
>> Martha Tatarnic (21:03):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (21:03):
Uh, alongside. And Nancy
Iseland from the disability, uh, liberation theology
perspective have been really important,
uh, in helping my faith become
more, uh, holistic and
broad.
>> Loren (21:20):
Yeah, uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
Um, let's get into some of the
conversation about leadership in the book,
which I feel like we've been talking
about here. Around the. Beating around the bush here in some
ways because it's so essential, I think, to
the way of the structures of our current
(21:42):
society. Um, I'm trying to find some quotes here that
speak to this. Uh, you write for one, leading in the way
of Christ. You.
>> Andrew Draper (21:48):
All right.
>> Loren (21:49):
Leading in the way of Christ is not the domain of those who
are relevant, spectacular or powerful, but those
who experience being loved in weakness, being sent
in community, and being led in surprising ways. After all,
it's only in human weakness that God's power
is made known. Um, and then,
let's see, where's the disabling quote I wanted to
(22:09):
pull?
Disabling leadership means interrupting common
conceptions about what leadership is and how it
is practiced. So talk more about uh, this
disabling idea of leadership and leading in the way of
Christ.
>> Andrew Draper (22:27):
Yeah, so the first quote that you read
there is our summation of the work of
Henry Nouwen M. In his book in
the Name of Jesus. Uh, when he
talks about, he uses
the temptations of Jesus,
the uh, relevant, spectacular
and powerful, uh,
(22:49):
as.
>> Loren (22:52):
Warnings, uh.
>> Andrew Draper (22:54):
About the
trap of common
ways that we as modern Westerners think about
leadership being exercised. And
he grounds his
view of leadership
in who we are as the beloved of God,
in our identity. And particularly
(23:17):
because of his relationship with Bill Van
Buren and uh, other
disabled um, uh, siblings that he
ministered and lived and worked alongside
at um, the Daybreak community in
Toronto, which is part of large
um, international um organization.
(23:37):
So we draw from Henry
Nouwen quite uh, a
bit because
he's both calling into question
some of our modern leadership assumptions and
demonstrating how a uh,
diversity of abilities informs that
discussion.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:58):
Mm mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (23:59):
Then second we, we also in the book look at
a lot of you know, kind of the canonical
leadership literature that. The stuff that's out there that people read
where they say, right, you know, that to be a leader
is first and foremost about the, you know,
the skills of the leader or the makeup of
the community, you know, in a way that,
(24:20):
that, that talks about skills or abilities.
>> Loren (24:22):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (24:23):
You know, it tends to be grounded in
ideas of attributes. Right, right.
Like who are we as leaders? What are our
skills? How do we
um, contribute to the
process of leadership through uh,
productive and effective means.
>> Loren (24:43):
Right. Born or made type thing, you
know.
>> Andrew Draper (24:47):
Yeah. And we try to kind
of eschew that whole conversation
altogether. Not saying that there's nothing to be learned from it,
but we sort of look at that conversation
and we say, okay,
um, if, if it's not primarily
about skills or
attributes, um, and
(25:09):
it's not even primarily about who we are
in a uh, sort of
productivity, uh, oriented sense that
then what does leading look
like and what is leading in the way of Jesus look like? And we talk
about that being a faithful presence,
um, as we are
(25:30):
in limitations,
you know, I mean all through Scripture, right?
Limitation, uh, and weakness is seen
as a
picture of God's
very being. Um, we see that in
the incarnation, right, uh, that the
(25:52):
Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
um, not just to achieve victory in
a sort of Roman Empire kind of way,
but in a, in a. Laying
down one's life.
>> Loren (26:06):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (26:07):
Um, likewise, Paul says it's in
our weakness, that we are made strong, that it's in our
limitation that the power of God is
most clearly seen. And
so if that's the case,
then it's not first
and foremost our strengths or
our abilities
(26:29):
that point to
who we are in a, uh,
theologically thick sense, but
who we are, are creatures of
God who are loved
by God and with all of our particularities,
uh, we are drawn up into the life of
God through the life of Jesus. And that takes place
(26:51):
in a community, a community of people who are different from
one another. And leadership
is not always exercised, or
perhaps maybe isn't even usually
exercised, um, most
fully in the body of Christ in the ways that we assume.
>> Loren (27:09):
You know, I think something that comes
from this, that is so helpful
for pastors, for church leaders is what
you write here in the book you all write. Congregational
vitality cannot rest primarily on the
strengths of a particular leader. And I think this
stands in such stark contrast
to, I don't know, the
(27:31):
last, the early, certainly the first
20 years. Right. Of, I think, broadly
speaking American church
is that you need to have a dynamic
leader who will drive growth,
drive the attraction model.
>> Andrew Draper (27:51):
Mhm.
>> Loren (27:52):
And it's to me, when I read this,
I think, oh my goodness, what a gift.
And I think this is, broadly speaking, what is so often true
about. You talk about these
early on in the podcast, these different, uh,
theories and ideologies. They're often
such a gift. Like this disabling leadership concept
(28:14):
isn't not just a gift to those who might find themselves,
uh, you know, uh, in the disabled community. They're
often so often a gift to those who are not.
Because we're, we realize like the limitations
of ourselves and that we don't have to be
this superhuman type Persona.
>> Andrew Draper (28:32):
Yeah, well, I think that's a really
great point in that way. Disability
is a gift
to the church. It's a clear sign of the presence
of God. And I don't mean that in
a,
um, condescending
(28:53):
or tokenism. Um. Right. And I
don't mean that in an inspirational sense of
like, look how someone
with a disability has overcome it to the glory
of God. Which is how evangelicalism
often frames those kind of scenarios. You know, we
talk in the book about how people with disabilities, just like
(29:14):
anyone, are simply
human. Not to be pitied, not
to be heroes.
>> Loren (29:20):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (29:20):
Um, that said,
by
when, when the eternal life of God is
made known, especially
in the midst of our profound limitations,
we more easily see that the work is God's
(29:43):
and not our own. When
we have an Idea that somehow we
can adhere to the mythology of the self made man
or woman. Right.
Uh, that
creates the kind of.
>> Loren (30:00):
Celebrity.
>> Andrew Draper (30:00):
Um, Christianity that you're talking about, you
know, um, where there's
a powerful, gifted, dynamic person
on a stage.
>> Loren (30:10):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (30:11):
That people are drawn to. But
we've seen in the last decades that
that often does not translate into
maturity, deep character, a
whole life. Right. Sometimes the higher they
are, the bigger the pedestal, the
more harmful, uh, is the fall.
>> Loren (30:32):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (30:32):
Um, you know, when we start to
believe our press and
uh, get, you know, get too
big for our britches, as my dad would have said years ago,
you know, we start to,
um, we start to
subvert the work of God. And
(30:54):
that's why again,
there's so much in the kind of
attractional church growth,
uh, model M that you mentioned that has
contributed to that. But I think also
today we see there's also this whole sphere
of sometimes folks in the
(31:14):
deconstructive or exvangelical
spheres who, who
rail against all of that while
still carrying over
from it the sense of being the guru
or the, the expert that should be
listened to. Yes, we saw that in the whole Joshua
Harris thing. Right. From I Kiss Dating Goodbye to like
(31:37):
now I can sell you my deconstruction curriculum. You
know, um, you know, we're
disability cuts across all of that. It just says we're not
interested in that whole game. Uh, I'm not
interested right. In, in everything
about my appearance on
this podcast with you or my
personage with anybody
(31:59):
being,
uh, something, uh,
that it's not. Right.
>> Loren (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, this is good. Um, as much as
I want to continue down this road, let's shift
gears here to more practical. And I think one
of the things again that I appreciate about the book was
the philosophical that you all really, I think, have
so much richness and depth as we just talked about. But I think
there's also a lot of practical, really
(32:28):
practical, uh, stuff that helps. So,
um, I'm going to, again, I keep going to quotes
here because there are so many good quotes here that I thought. So you talk
about why a church's practices
represent its beliefs and commitments. And I
think this is really good. Like I'm
preaching monthly at a church and I tried to preach a very
(32:49):
similar message. Like, you know, we,
this church, broadly speaking, the denomination, all
that tries to convey a message of,
you know, inclusion and welcome. Yet the people
we claim to include and welcome are not here. So where's the
disconnect? Right, right, right.
Whether in, let me read this quote. Whether in
(33:10):
government or church or family, we proclaim our vision
of what our community should be by whom we
include or exclude. Lack of access
and lack of representation are mutually
reinforcing realities. It will take courageous action on
the part of the body Christ to live into the
reality of who we are. So talk
(33:30):
more about the disconnect between, you know,
beliefs and then what is actually practiced.
>> Andrew Draper (33:36):
Yeah, yeah. Well I'm glad
that you brought that up because let me say first our local church in
Muncie, Indiana, Urban Light, uh, is
not a picture perfect
example of inclusion. I mean we
have uh, a long way to
go in many areas. What we are
(33:56):
doing is thinking
through the ramifications of our
confession and
the, the um,
the broadness
of our local church
makeup, including our leaders,
(34:18):
um, so that
we can
offer
practices in an experimenting kind of way
for the body of Christ. We're not saying we have the corner
market on what it means to be inclusive. What
we are saying is here are the issues at
(34:38):
play and the practical realities of what we need to
be thinking about. And so I think your point is exactly right.
That oftentimes the disconnect between what we
proclaim and the reality in our own midst might be
broad. And I would just
encourage churches not to grow
weary or disheartened in that.
Um, you know,
(34:59):
keep proclaiming what should be even
when what should be is not in your own midst.
Um, at the
same time I would say
we always need to be careful.
Spiritual ah, pride is one of the worst,
uh, one of the worst sicknesses
(35:22):
the church can have. And
what I mentioned earlier about the certainty that can
sometimes, you know,
often infected the,
the kind of conservative roots that I
grew up in also can infect the
more progressive, justice oriented
(35:43):
congregations who are sort of like we get it and no one
else gets it.
>> Loren (35:47):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (35:48):
Right. While at the same time the makeup
of the church and who is
actually involved in leading may not reflect
the diversity of the body of Christ.
Um, for instance
when Jody preaches.
>> Loren (36:04):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (36:05):
She uh, asks someone, uh, often me
or someone else in the church to help her
communicate because of her speech, uh
impediment. She's a wonderful preacher, a
wonderful exegete of scripture.
Um and at the same
time we are very well
aware of that there are churches that value
(36:26):
being slick in a way that
just don't have the time for that sort of
practice.
>> Loren (36:32):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (36:34):
Uh, Andrea's
uh, daughter Shiloh, uh has
down syndrome and uh, often
engages in worship through uh,
loud vocalizations or
movements that
um, can easily draw
people's Attention. And
(36:55):
we, uh, try to
uh, talk about and include
those various expressions of worship in ways that
say, hey, this is what it means to
be the church and to worship with all that we are.
Um, you know, and so
true diversity is always going to be uncomfortable.
>> Loren (37:17):
Right?
>> Andrew Draper (37:18):
Um, you know, you're, you,
it's, it's hard to stay
on certain ideological lines, uh,
on, on either side or, or
to, um, to have a real
slick Sunday, uh, service
if you truly have a diversity
(37:40):
of expressions and people
groups who are contributing,
uh, to that time together. And
so I agree with you. Just
like there are very conservative,
legalistic congregations that are super homogenous.
There's also justice minded,
progressive congregations that are super
(38:02):
homogenous. And we always have
to do the hard, practical
work to break down those walls. And it
will be uncomfortable. Yeah, it'll be, it'll
be messy. Um, and it's
probably hard to do sometimes on a real large
scale.
>> Loren (38:19):
Let's stay on this point if I may, because
I mean, I think A, what you just said there is important.
It's, it's hard to do on a large scale.
So like popping out a bunch of
Insta church plants with 400
people, you know, in a month or two, that's gonna be
hard. But B, like, you talk about
this true diversity always being uncomfortable. As
(38:42):
I wrote it down, you know, you talk about your church, Urban
Light, thinking through the ramifications of your
confession. How do you,
as you know, obviously not just you, but
your pastoral staff, your volunteer leadership, the lay
leadership said, how do you all guide your.
Because I'm, I gotta imagine you prob. Had this
conversation. Someone on your staff, your lady of leadership,
(39:04):
has had this conversation with someone who's like, hey,
can we take a break? Like, can we just chill
out for a little bit? That kind of thing.
>> Andrew Draper (39:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:13):
How do you, how do you guide that?
>> Andrew Draper (39:17):
Yeah, it's complex. I mean, that's why it's important to
have a diversity of people at those
conversations, um, so that it doesn't become
paternalistic or doesn't become something that
a congregation is doing on behalf of people
without including those people who are most
affected by those decisions. So, you know,
for instance, one
(39:39):
great practical step
is simply to ask people
what they need or what the
church community needs
to more fully include them
and to have honest conversations about those kind of things
across racial lines. You're going to hear things about music
(40:01):
and preaching and worship and
theology that
the church needs to be responsive to
within communities where there is a diversity of
abilities. You're Going to hear things about
transportation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (40:20):
About sensory spaces,
about electronic documents that
can be read
in an audi. Auditory, uh,
fashion. Uh, um, you're going
to hear about, um,
elevators.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:40):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (40:40):
You're going to hear about automatic doors.
You're going to hear about bathroom
stalls.
Um, you're going to hear about, about
uh, uh, the ways
meals are served.
Um, you're going to hear about
volume.
>> Loren (40:59):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (41:02):
I mean on and on and on. If, if you're
truly paying attention.
You know, I hear churches sometimes say things like, well,
we don't need an elevator because nobody in a
wheelchair comes. Well,
that's exactly right. Right. That is kind of a self fulfilling
prophecy. Or in our town,
(41:23):
um, public accessible
transportation runs through the week,
but public transportation does not run on Sundays for
instance.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:34):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (41:34):
And so just little things like we bought an
accessible bus that was used from our local
bus company to be able to go around and pick people up
on Sundays. Because oftentimes people who
need accessible transportation are isolated,
uh, either on the weekends or in evenings
or isolated from being able to spend time in other
(41:55):
congregants homes or maybe can't even
get to church. Um, and then
once people get there, is there a
way for them to enter? So yes,
we're thinking about physical accommodations, but we're also
thinking about accommodations in terms of
visual, uh, and auditory. And when we have
(42:15):
Spanish speakers, you know, we're working on
translations and I mean
no church can, can perfectly
tackle each one of these dynamics, but we can
constantly be growing, we can constantly be
responding to the, to the real people
in front of us and learning
(42:37):
from resources like this book and
other disability studies
books. Um, you know, so that we're
not just putting everything back on disabled people to do
the work of education.
>> Loren (42:50):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (42:51):
But that we're responding to real
people so that the body of Christ can look more
like the kingdom of God and can be a more full
experience of Christ
church.
>> Loren (43:03):
Yeah. And I think that's one thing I for sure
appreciated about the book too was it wasn't
like, as I read it, it wasn't like judgy in
your faith, like in your face, you got to do this or you're horrible. It's
like, hey, let's keep taking steps.
I feel like you all are encouraging people take the next
step, uh, to be more welcoming and
inclusive.
>> Andrew Draper (43:26):
Uh, yeah, because then we also recognize where we get it wrong.
Right. I mean we share some of those stories
in the book. You know, we open the book with one of the
stories where I'm, you Know, rightfully so, not seen in
a real positive light, you know,
um, because I was thinking, hey, look how inclusive we are
that we have removed some pews and have some
(43:47):
disability sections and you know, right
away learning how quickly
that was reinforcing segregation, uh, in
the church and cutting down on
options for people with physical
limitations or uh, uh, accommodation
needs in regard to transportation.
>> Loren (44:05):
Let's talk about that before we take a break. I want to
ask about. Because you all write in the book about
the physicality of spiritual disciplines.
Uh, I'm thinking
receiving communion for me is something that
is for some reason in my life.
Uh, I hope it always this way. But for where I am
(44:26):
right now, coming forward,
putting out my hands just makes me
weak in the knees. When the pastor
extends to me, this is the body of Christ broken for
you.
Like I said, it really just impacts me.
That's something that may or may not be possible
(44:47):
for folks. And I'm thinking of so many other
spiritual practices
that can take place in a worship service or in the
life of faith. How do you
all, uh, balance that? How do you all navigate
those things?
>> Andrew Draper (45:04):
Mhm. That's great.
So we've tried to.
Let's use communion as an example.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:12):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (45:13):
The way you're talking about communion being served from a common
cup is what we've really
valued.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:19):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (45:20):
In our congregation while at the same, you know, because we
don't want those little individual kind of shot
glass things. Right. That talk about us as sort of,
you know, our own individual salvation.
>> Loren (45:31):
But not especially like the plastic ones. You have to like crinkle
open and such.
>> Andrew Draper (45:35):
Right, exactly. With the little wafer on
top. Sometimes that's packaged in it.
But so what we've done is, um,
because our sanctuary has
um,
different levels, uh, and
spaces in it, we've
ensured that a people with
(45:55):
wheelchairs, uh, can make it to
every point of the sanctuary in different
ways. We set up several different
communion stations,
um, for people to be able to receive.
Um, we have four communion stations on
a Sunday. One in the balcony, two on the sides
and one down front, um, so that people
(46:18):
in different areas can come get it. For those
who, um, uh, need assistance,
we will bring the elements to
them. Um, but then we also ensure that people with
disabilities are involved in leading and serving
communion.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:33):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (46:34):
Uh, so that it's not, you
know.
>> Loren (46:37):
Receiving uh.
>> Andrew Draper (46:40):
The body of Christ, uh, in
a unidirectional, ah, sort of way.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:45):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (46:46):
But we ensure that there's a diversity of people on a
rotation who are involved in Leading
communion or serving communion.
>> Loren (46:53):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (46:54):
Um, and then there's, there's as you
mentioned, the physicality of spiritual disciplines. I
mean our postures of
worship, our
um, the way we vocalize,
ah, having
um, a low sensory
(47:16):
room in the back of the sanctuary where people
maybe who uh, are autistic
or um, uh, have
sensory uh, needs can
uh, get away for a little bit.
Um, it's not uncommon in our
service for people to get up and move
around at different points. We have a, a greeting
(47:38):
time in the middle where we pass the peace of Christ.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:41):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (47:41):
And in some ways it's kind of like the seventh inning stretch before the
message, you know, where, you know, people hit the,
hit the bathroom and grab a coffee or whatever.
And it is kind of. It can be awkward, right? It can be
awkward, stand up, move around,
in and out. Um, it doesn't make
for, you know, like great TV production
(48:01):
necessarily, but, but
it does lend itself to
uh, experiencing the diversity of the body.
>> Loren (48:10):
I suppose it gets back to, I feel like something
we've talked about of that kind of like cookie
cutter attractional model of
church where it's like the dim lights and
the excellent worship band
and the streamlined
35 minute or 45 minute,
you know, sermon message. Like
(48:33):
you've kind of just got to be able to let go both, I
imagine the pastor, the church
leadership and the Karnians themselves. Like the people in
the pews, so to speak, have got to be okay with
like this is all good. Like if we're
singing on key, if someone's
making noises that don't feel
like it's all part of the worship. Right. Like
(48:55):
that's the shift.
>> Andrew Draper (48:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
it's interesting because, you know,
we do want to, in our areas
of giftedness, uh,
do the best that we can.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:09):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (49:10):
Um,
and by that I mean even pursuing
excellence, say musically or in preaching
or.
>> Loren (49:19):
Um.
>> Andrew Draper (49:20):
But some of it is simply
teaching and redefining
what some of those things mean.
>> Loren (49:27):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (49:28):
Um,
for instance, you mentioned the 45
minute sermon that's kind
of slickly organized and done
and there's maybe the visuals and the
outline and the whole thing. I'm not saying there's anything
inherently wrong with that. Although
(49:49):
what I would say is if, if the
majority of your preaching at a local church
is one
particular person every single Sunday, who's doing
that similar kind of thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:02):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (50:02):
Um, you're limiting what the
body of Christ is experiencing. Um.
M. You know, and as we know a lot of
larger churches who do that sort of Thing,
uh, even are buying
sermon outlines and curriculum now. I mean, that's not
a unheard of thing for the
sermon series to be pre
(50:24):
written, uh, and kind
of brought in.
Um, so
I guess that's what's hard about it
is
you want to bring your whole self and that
includes your skills and abilities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:43):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (50:44):
While at the same time recognizing that there is a diversity
of gifts in the body.
>> Loren (50:49):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (50:50):
And a diversity of ways of experiencing that. You know, you
mentioned lighting, for instance.
Um, you know,
darker lighting, as is the
case in many churches
nowadays, might contribute to more
of a feeling of immediacy between the
individual and their experience.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:11):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (51:12):
Of God or emotional experience or whatever in that
moment. Um,
and may make people feel more free.
But we also have to realize that another thing that it does is
it draws all attention up to a stage.
>> Loren (51:26):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (51:26):
It draws attention away from the body
as the lights are dark and you can't see the body
of Christ around you. It draws attention
away from the community.
>> Loren (51:37):
Yep.
>> Andrew Draper (51:38):
Um, and then it also provides a hazard for
people who maybe, um,
uh, are in wheelchairs or
who may, uh, have visual
impairments. M. Or whatever the case might
be. Um, you know,
darkness is not ideal
for the constitution of the body of Christ or the experience
(52:00):
of many people with disabilities.
>> Loren (52:02):
Yeah. Well, uh, there's so much good stuff.
I really recommend the book Disabling
A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of
Christ co, uh, written by our guests today,
Nandra Draper, Jodi Michel and Andrea May.
Encourage folks to check it out. Let's take a quick break
and we'll come back with some closing questions.
(52:25):
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper.
So thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate the
conversation. I always tell folks these
closing questions, you're welcome to take some of them as
seriously or not as you'd like to.
So, you know, don't get too tripped up
on. If, uh, you're Pope for a day,
(52:46):
what, uh, do you want to do, serious or not, with that day?
>> Andrew Draper (52:52):
Uh, first, if I'm Pope for a day,
I don't know if a Pope could unilaterally push this through.
But take seriously the conversation on women in
ministry. I think would be one, that would be
really important.
Um,
two, uh, think through.
I guess by being Pope, I would be Roman Catholic,
(53:14):
so think through. How can, how could I have a
more encourage, uh, a more
inclusive, uh, eucharistic table.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:22):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (53:23):
Um,
try, uh, to think carefully through how
can the experience of the universal body of
Christ be more representative
of um,
people in, in non Western countries.
>> Loren (53:43):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (53:44):
And I, because obviously the, the
church,
um, just numerically
is not primarily
Western. Although, uh,
in, in, in many ways
leadership, uh, of, of many of
our denominational or
(54:06):
theological traditions does um,
not always reflect that.
>> Loren (54:10):
Right, right. Yeah, that's good.
Um, a theologian or Christian historical
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Andrew Draper (54:19):
Oh, wow.
Oh, there's so many.
I would love to meet
Julian of Norwich Camp,
Talk to her about her experience of
having visions of Christ and
(54:43):
all things being made new and right.
Um, in the midst of suffering and pain. Um, I would
love to talk with her about that.
Um,
I'd love to, uh, chat with Karl
Bart. He was such a character.
Uh, I'd also like to ask him some questions about
(55:04):
how in the world he justified his relationship with
Charlotte von Kirschbaum.
Um, but that would be really interesting is to talk
to Karl Barth.
Um,
Gustavo Gutierrez passed away recently and I always
wished I had gotten to meet him.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:21):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (55:24):
Um, yeah, there's so
many. Maybe
someday, um, in the new
heaven and new earth,
uh, with the resurrection of the body and the communion of
saints, we can have some of those chats.
>> Loren (55:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but you know, I think because
Juliana Vorwitch, if I'm remembering correctly, she's known for the
all will be well. Yeah,
right.
>> Andrew Draper (55:54):
Yep.
Yeah. She had this series of visions.
She had asked the Lord for a
sickness leading unto death that would allow her to experience
Christ's passion. And.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:08):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (56:09):
She got deathly ill and had these, had these visions
that she recorded, um, after
she got better. And um,
in one of them she was really struggling with the problem of
evil and just kind of going, lord, how
why did there have to be sin? Why did there have to be evil?
Like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:27):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (56:28):
Uh, you know, what's going on with that? Wouldn't it have
been better if that had never been the case?
>> Loren (56:34):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (56:34):
And,
and she doesn't get an
answer as, as far
as why, as much as the
assurance that all
shall be well and all shall be well
and all manner of things shall be well.
(56:54):
I think the quote is something along the lines of
that, um,
that sin was necessary, but
that when all
things are restored and all is made new,
that
basically that uh, our understanding
(57:15):
of what is wrong with the world will
pale in comparison to what has been made.
Right.
>> Loren (57:22):
Okay, I've got to ask this and we're, I'm getting off track here
and we're running out of Time, so don't go
too long. But I gotta ask and I just, I'm thinking about
the current context recording this on November
15th. So much, so much of our
nation is. I, uh, mean
there's so many folks who voted a certain way
(57:42):
in the election that are very
disheartened and disillusioned. And I'm thinking, because I'm
literally preaching this Sunday a message that I wrote
before November 5,
um, on the idea that
like God is in control, God is God.
Which seems trite in some ways, but also
(58:02):
how, I mean, what is your,
I don't know, pastorally,
theologically, how do you convey to folks who are
like, all will not be well, you know,
God is not in control, or if God is in control, this is
awful type scenario. Like, I don't know if that makes
any sense.
>> Andrew Draper (58:22):
Yeah, that does make sense. So one, theologically I'd
say all will be well and God is in control are
two different statements.
>> Loren (58:29):
Okay.
>> Andrew Draper (58:30):
Um, all will be well
is a
recognition that God
will weave together all the disparate strands of
history, all the mess, all the sin, all the
everything into
something beautiful in the end. That death
will be defeated, sin will be
(58:52):
defeated, and all will be made.
Right. That's a different
statement than God is in control. What do
I mean by that?
>> Loren (59:01):
At least broadly speaking, Control as in like
pulling the strings control.
>> Andrew Draper (59:05):
Right, yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
I guess I'm thinking more of the view of sovereignty that
some people popularly use where they say like, you know,
everything happens for a reason.
>> Loren (59:15):
Right. I don't want to.
>> Andrew Draper (59:18):
Yeah. And I know you're not saying that, but I'm just more
talking to people out there who might sort of think
that control means sovereignty in
the sense that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:28):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (59:29):
Uh, you know, there is a strong
kind of determinism that God, that we're just sort of
puppets on a string and God's just kind of
making everything happen for his greater glory.
And I think we have to just
admit some uncertainty in these
regards. Right. Like, I'm definitely
(59:49):
not going to commit to a strong deterministic
view, nor am I going to commit to a strong kind of open
theist view because I feel like either of those extremes
sort of presume on what we can know about
God.
>> Loren (01:00:01):
Right, right.
>> Andrew Draper (01:00:03):
So instead I'm just sort of making the
observation that the kingdom of
God is not the kingdom of this
world. That
doesn't mean that we shouldn't work for justice within the
kingdoms of this world. We should. And so I get
is very Fair for people to say right now
(01:00:24):
the world does not feel like good
is winning. This is awful. I am
in the middle of pain,
marginalization, oppression, whatever the case might be,
and we need to resist it. I'm on board with
that. At the same time recognizing
that we can't by our own strength,
bring the kingdom of God into being. Right. Like it
(01:00:47):
is. Jesus teaches us to pray, your
kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
So, yes, we are co heirs with Christ, co
laborers with God. Uh,
I'm not talking about a sort of, you know,
escapism here where we just go, oh, the world's going to burn and
we're going to wait for the sweet bye and bye. I
(01:01:07):
am talking about being engaged in making this
world a better place, at the same time realizing
that all of our activity falls short and
it's only God who can actually bring new life out of
nothing. It's only God who creates
ex nihilo. Right. And
so. And so that's the kind of the way
(01:01:27):
I would temper those statements is yes, God
is in control. If by that we mean God will bring
history to its proper end at the proper time in
a way that good and love win.
>> Loren (01:01:39):
Right. And you're saying, like, you're
thinking of control as in the weaving together,
of making good out of the
brokenness. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (01:01:50):
Well, yeah, kind of the idea of like all things working together
for good or.
>> Loren (01:01:55):
Yeah, this is good because I'm going to include this in my sermon
in this, Julian.
Well, because I think. I think, you know, we're. I'm
off track here, but I think this is the, the
nuance, the balance that I think is so hard because you're right,
it does. It does tend to.
It does tend to. To flow into those
(01:02:20):
spectrums.
>> Andrew Draper (01:02:21):
Yeah.
>> Loren (01:02:22):
Of. Well, if God is control,
that means everything is deterministic. And, you know,
why is that? And then
certainly I'm. I'm very familiar with the open theism and the
process theology. And,
uh, there's some things that I'm just. I
don't know that that leads me dissatisfied too.
Um, so I think the theme of this book
(01:02:45):
and Yalls work has been
nuance and balance and tension. So
I'm. I'm appreciating that tension.
>> Andrew Draper (01:02:52):
There is a lot of that in it. Right.
>> Loren (01:02:54):
And balance throughout all of this. Well,
share, if you would, here how folks can
connect with you, all the church, you know, the
authors, all that stuff.
>> Andrew Draper (01:03:05):
Yeah, great. Um,
so there are multiple ways to connect with us.
Um, first you can connect with the book on
obviously Amazon or
ivp. Um, Academic
is the publisher.
Um, on
Amazon, you can also get,
(01:03:25):
um, accessible
versions that are electronically
readable.
Um, as far as
connecting with us personally,
um, we each have
active Facebook pages and
uh, X accounts, although I don't know
(01:03:46):
how long X is kind of a
dumpster fire right now.
Um, I mean, it's blue sky as.
>> Loren (01:03:53):
We'Re talking, I guess is the thing.
>> Andrew Draper (01:03:55):
Yeah, I don't even know. It's hard for me to stay up with it
all. Um, we, uh, each have
blogs. Um, you can
find mine, uh,
@AndrewtDraper.com I
think is what it is. You can find our church,
urbanlightmonsy.com
um, Jody and Andrea both have blogs. And I'm,
(01:04:16):
I'm, I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to remember the,
the, uh, the web addresses right now
for those. But if you connect with us on, on Facebook,
Jody, Michelle or Andrea May,
uh, we can, you know, get you connected.
Um, you can go through our church
website. Uh, there, there are multiple ways to get a
(01:04:36):
hold of us. Um, I'm also, like I said, on staff
at Weinbrenner Seminary in Findlay,
Ohio. We, um,
uh, offer, um, really, um,
flexible, uh, accessible and affordable
accredited, uh, education.
You can get a hold of me through our website, mindbrenner.
(01:04:57):
Edu.
Um, and yeah, we'd love to have
continued conversations with you.
>> Loren (01:05:03):
Yeah, well, I appreciate, really appreciate this
conversation, really appreciate the book. So thank you
to yourself and um,
Jody and Andrea for their contributions here.
So always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Andrew Draper (01:05:19):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
>> Loren Richmond (01:05:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:05:50):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend
Dr. Nandra T. Draper to the
program. Nandra is founding
teaching pastor at Urban Light Community
Church in Luncie, Indiana,
and adjunct theology faculty
at Anderson School of Theology and
(01:05):
Weinbrenner Seminary. He is the author of
A Theology of Race and Place, Christian
Mission and Poverty, and numerous
articles on race, disability, and the
church. A reminder. Before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
(01:25):
share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on
Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediaprouh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of
(01:46):
the church.
>> Loren (01:56):
All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond, Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
welcoming Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper. So
welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.
>> Andrew Draper (02:07):
Thank you so much for inviting me.
>> Loren (02:09):
Yeah, great to have you. Anything else you want our listeners
to know about you?
>> Andrew Draper (02:15):
I grew up in Ohio. I've lived most of my life
in the Midwest. Um, for the last
20 years, have been involved in community
development work in a local parish in
Indiana that is committed
to, uh, reconciliation and justice
work locally. Uh,
most recently, I am
(02:37):
working for our denominational seminary,
Weinbrenner Theological Seminary in Ohio.
Uh, I'm there a couple days a week and then back in
Muncie working virtually the rest of the week and
just pastoring part time.
>> Loren (02:51):
Give me, like, a Midwestern nice
phraseology. That's the cliche, right?
>> Andrew Draper (02:57):
It is. That's the cliche.
>> Loren (02:59):
What's it? Is that true or is that, like,
overstated?
>> Andrew Draper (03:03):
Um, I think it's true in the sense
that, you know,
if you run into somebody
or head toward the same direction that someone
else is going, you fall all over yourself
to apologize. Oh, I'm sorry, my bad.
You, you go ahead. If somebody else steps in
(03:23):
front, you go, oh, no worries.
Um, we say. We say,
oh, A lot and we don't even realize it.
Something, um, will happen. You'll go ope,
which, uh, isn't really a word, but everyone sort of knows what it
means. Um, you also can't
turn down an invitation in the
(03:44):
Midwest straightforwardly. You have to say, oh,
let me check my schedule and get back with you.
That just basically means you're never going to get back with the
person.
>> Loren (03:54):
Well, thank you for not, uh, turning
down my schedule request here.
>> Andrew Draper (04:00):
Yeah. If I had replied with hey Loren,
I appreciate it, let's connect sometime,
that would have been a hard no.
>> Loren (04:08):
Okay, good to know. Good to know.
Share if you would, just a little about your faith
background, what that looks like, uh, in the past and what
that looks like today.
>> Andrew Draper (04:20):
So I grew up in an evangelical
tradition, the Churches of God, but it's an older
evangelical tradition before the culture
wars of the
fundamentalist modernist divide
in the early 20th century.
So uh, we grew out of
a revivalist and social reform
(04:42):
movement. Uh, so
some, um, of the key focuses were on
evangelism, um, a
high view of the scriptures, but then also,
uh, abolition of the slave trade,
(05:03):
anti war, uh,
ordination of women was a key
factor as early as the 1850s.
Um, so there's a, there's a bit
more nuance in our history perhaps than some of
the more modern
reformed evangelicalism that we, that we tend to
think of, uh, when. And I've appreciated my
(05:25):
roots more over recent years because in, in
as a young adult I went through quite a process of
what, what today they call deconstruction and being
pretty, um, disillusioned
with the church in a lot of ways,
um,
and wanting uh, a more holistic faith
(05:45):
focused on justice, uh, a
more inclusive table,
um, a more diverse
experience of the faith. Um,
and yet in recent years there's
much of my
upbringing and the
(06:06):
strong ah, focus on the uh,
centrality of Jesus and the scriptures
that has been of increasing importance to me
in recent years. So, um,
I'm probably not quite in as much of
a, uh,
uh, you know, what, what in the academy we would call a
hermeneutic of suspicion as I might have been at one point.
(06:29):
Although I still think, uh,
that there's a lot to be gained from
asking the hard questions and deconstructing, uh,
harmful theology.
>> Loren (06:42):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, uh, share if you would, anything,
anything you want about spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines
that are meaningful for you.
>> Andrew Draper (06:54):
So that was one of the pieces that was
probably lacking in my evangelical
upbringing. Uh, we were all about
uh, the conversion experience,
but then didn't really know what to do with people
once they were in the church. We knew kind
of what we could articulate what we were saved from,
(07:15):
perhaps, uh, in terms of what we were
against, but maybe not so much what we were
saved for. And so,
um, contemplative
spiritual practices have been very important to me in
the last couple decades.
Um, lectio divina,
(07:35):
other ways of engaging with the text in
a contemplative, reflective
manner. Mhm. Journaling,
even images and iconography has been
important to me at various times.
Uh,
(07:56):
you know, I've tried to have disciplines of
fasting at different times and, and I'm, I'm not
real great at it. And so what I've tried to do is to
focus instead on um,
things that I can give up for a
period that help me be more balanced,
uh, so that I don't slip into legalism because
(08:16):
that's always a
temptation. Um,
is, is for my faith to kind of be
crushed by something that I feel is legalistic.
So
um, different disciplines
at different times are helpful. Solitude,
uh, rest,
(08:37):
worship, rejoicing, all of those
components have been life giving to me over the years.
>> Loren (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that.
So let's talk about, uh, Nandra is the
co author of the book Disabling
A, uh, Practical Theology for the Broken
Body of Christ. Why don't you begin
by talking about. Nandra is a co author here. So why don't
you share about your co authors here and then
(09:04):
just talk about kind of what brought the book about.
>> Andrew Draper (09:07):
There are three of us who wrote the book
together. My two co
authors are Jody,
Michelle and Andrea May.
We have been part of the same
local faith community
for probably 15 to 20
years.
(09:30):
We are each part of the disability
community in various
ways.
And several years
ago we recognized together
some of the limitations
in how our framework of
(09:51):
reconciliation conceived of
inclusion of people with disabilities.
Being a justice oriented church,
we had focused quite a bit on
ethnic diversity and socioeconomic
diversity,
um, working
toward connecting people with
(10:13):
resources and alleviation of poverty and things like
that. And
our congregation was inclusive of people with
disabilities, but in
our more explicit framework
we uh, weren't thinking perhaps as
a church in a real
robust manner
(10:35):
about what it means to be a
diverse body in terms of abilities.
And so we um,
had each had our
own work in this area.
Um, my PhD is in theological
ethics and I had done a lot of work in theological anthropology.
(10:55):
And so some of that like basically what does it mean to
be human?
>> Martha Tatarnic (10:59):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (11:00):
And so a lot of that work
overlaps with Conversations
in disability Theology.
Um, I am textbook, um,
obsessive compulsive. Uh, my wife has several
rheumatological conditions, and one of our sons is
autistic. Um, my mother has
dementia. And so we, uh,
(11:23):
we're used to thinking,
uh, deeply and carefully about theology and practice
in terms of disability in our family.
Uh, Jody, uh, is
a disability activist,
author, and consultant,
uh, who has cerebral palsy.
Um, Andrea
(11:45):
has three children with profound disabilities
and has worked in special
education. Uh,
so the three of us, uh, came
together and realized that we could take some of the work that we
were doing independently from one another
and
incorporate
(12:07):
themes, uh, of justice and reconciliation
into disability theology from the perspective of
local congregations.
>> Loren (12:16):
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that background.
I, uh, think it is really interesting the way y'all are able to
weave together your different perspectives
and backgrounds, um, into the
book. I want to jump in
to some of the points you make. You know, you talked
earlier in your introduction kind of about a
hermeneutic of suspicion. And I think
(12:38):
one of the things that was interesting, I really found
interesting, at least in the book, was the way that
you talk. Y'all talked about
the benefits and limits of things like, you know,
deconstruction, critical theory. So I want
to just read a couple quotes here. You know, early on,
you say that while we appreciate critical studies for the way
(12:58):
it helps us name certain power structures as
idolatry, critical studies alone does
not sow the seeds of new life.
Um, similarly, you.
You write, you do not fear. We do
not fear or demonize critical studies, nor do
we end in deconstruction alone.
(13:19):
Um, and I think. I feel like there's another quote. I can't
find it, about deconstructing not
being an end of itself. Um, talk
about how you all have.
Because, I mean, certainly. Right. We're in
a cultural context in a moment
where things like deconstruction, critical
(13:40):
theory, especially in more conservative spaces,
have been seen as, you know,
as horrific and problematic to
church and the faith. Um, how
have you all been able to find
some kind of balance or tension or
nuance? Yeah,
navigating that.
>> Andrew Draper (14:02):
Well, I mean, first, we could say
that any
faith, uh, that does
not contain elements of
doubt is not
faith in the thickest sense of the term.
We're not looking for rational certainty
as believers.
>> Loren (14:23):
Um.
>> Andrew Draper (14:25):
Uh, I mean, the church
has always said that, historically, has
always said that the way we know about
God is because of God's revelation to us,
not because of our
apprehension of God in an empirical
sense. Right. Uh,
(14:47):
so if we are reliant on divine
revelation, then our knowledge is
limited. I mean the scriptures talk this way. We see through a glass
darkly.
>> Martha Tatarnic (14:56):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (14:57):
The best we can know is
uh,
is a discombobulated
picture of the truth. Right. We, we don't have access
to all truth, uh, in an
epistemological way, in, in a way that we know.
We, we say that we believe
(15:18):
that there is one who is truth
and that the truth is revealed
to us by that one. So all
that to say that deconstruction is
necessary. It's always been a
part of the work that the people of God have done. I
mean from the Tower of Babel being
(15:38):
erected as a, ah, model
of um,
human productivity and
ingenuity,
uh, to wanting a
king instead of God
or uh, building a temple even
though the Lord said that he could not
(15:59):
be, uh, confined to a place built by human hands.
Right. The people of God have
always torn down things,
including within their own midst, have always torn down
false idols and false altars. That's
always been part of faith.
Uh, and if we can't look critically at our own
(16:20):
idols and the things
that we have built up that
uh, are problematic in our own theological
systems,
um, then we're not
participating in the
history of faith in a thick sense. We're, we're just kind of
slapping a veneer of
(16:41):
certainty onto some other kind of project. And,
and that's why it's so easy for
Christian nationalism or
um, secular humanism
to be where people land.
>> Martha Tatarnic (16:55):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (16:55):
Uh, when they start to be
uncomfortable with
um, walking in the path of
uncertainty. So critical studies has been super
helpful. Um, you know,
we, we as moderns need
hermeneutic of suspicion if we're going to be led into all truth.
We need to be able to look at things
(17:16):
critically, including our own assumptions.
Um,
you know, so, so critical studies,
uh, you, you know, sometimes people just say well that's
Godless and Marxist.
>> Loren (17:31):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (17:32):
But
you know,
any philosophy that looks
at
power structures and imbalance of power
and critiques it and
demonstrates uh,
(17:53):
how power corrupt.
>> Martha Tatarnic (17:55):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (17:56):
Um is not an enemy of
faith, even if some of its
proponents at times are outwardly
atheistic or whatever the case might be.
>> Loren (18:07):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (18:08):
Um, so, so I, I don't really
understand the. To
me it's more certainty and
fundamentalism that lead
to rejection of the faith than
some kind of
stance, uh, of, of critical,
(18:30):
uh, critical reflection.
>> Loren (18:32):
Yeah, I don't want to spend too much time on this because I
know we have more to cover and this is not Primarily what the book
is. But I feel like this is an important point, at least
from my perspective, because I think
you're dead on about the two
extremes being like, one side
going all into Christian nationalism and
(18:52):
the other side going just all into secular
humanism. How,
how do you advise folks to kind of
walk the middle, hold the tension?
Whatever analogy we want to use there.
>> Andrew Draper (19:08):
Yeah. For
me, what's been helpful is reading the church
mothers and fathers. M. A,
uh, because
many.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:21):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (19:21):
Especially the Eastern mothers and fathers do not fall
into the
bifurcated camps or silos
that we tend to think of today.
>> Martha Tatarnic (19:32):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (19:32):
Uh, it cuts
the tradition of Christian faith. Cuts across the
ideological spectrum.
>> Loren (19:39):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (19:40):
So A, I would say that. B,
the, uh, other thing that's been incredibly helpful for me
is listening, uh,
to. And reading
non, uh, white authors,
women, uh, and disabled
authors who
(20:04):
consistently talk about the need
for justice. M. And so,
um, I'm a fan of reading
liberation theology.
Um, obviously.
Um, just like I'm saying we don't take
anything on,
(20:24):
um, completely. There are
presuppositions in all different texts that I
might have some distance on.
Um, so don't, you know, I don't want people to hear
what I'm not saying. I'm not saying that
every single, I mean, liberation theology, for instance,
is such a broad.
>> Loren (20:42):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (20:43):
Uh, category that to simply stand
back and go, oh, well, it's all kind of this
Marxist materialist mess is really
a misunderstanding of the holistic
points that many authors are working
to make. And so, you know, people like Gustavo
Gutierrez and James Cone.
>> Martha Tatarnic (21:03):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (21:03):
Uh, alongside. And Nancy
Iseland from the disability, uh, liberation theology
perspective have been really important,
uh, in helping my faith become
more, uh, holistic and
broad.
>> Loren (21:20):
Yeah, uh, well, thanks for sharing that.
Um, let's get into some of the
conversation about leadership in the book,
which I feel like we've been talking
about here. Around the. Beating around the bush here in some
ways because it's so essential, I think, to
the way of the structures of our current
(21:42):
society. Um, I'm trying to find some quotes here that
speak to this. Uh, you write for one, leading in the way
of Christ. You.
>> Andrew Draper (21:48):
All right.
>> Loren (21:49):
Leading in the way of Christ is not the domain of those who
are relevant, spectacular or powerful, but those
who experience being loved in weakness, being sent
in community, and being led in surprising ways. After all,
it's only in human weakness that God's power
is made known. Um, and then,
let's see, where's the disabling quote I wanted to
(22:09):
pull?
Disabling leadership means interrupting common
conceptions about what leadership is and how it
is practiced. So talk more about uh, this
disabling idea of leadership and leading in the way of
Christ.
>> Andrew Draper (22:27):
Yeah, so the first quote that you read
there is our summation of the work of
Henry Nouwen M. In his book in
the Name of Jesus. Uh, when he
talks about, he uses
the temptations of Jesus,
the uh, relevant, spectacular
and powerful, uh,
(22:49):
as.
>> Loren (22:52):
Warnings, uh.
>> Andrew Draper (22:54):
About the
trap of common
ways that we as modern Westerners think about
leadership being exercised. And
he grounds his
view of leadership
in who we are as the beloved of God,
in our identity. And particularly
(23:17):
because of his relationship with Bill Van
Buren and uh, other
disabled um, uh, siblings that he
ministered and lived and worked alongside
at um, the Daybreak community in
Toronto, which is part of large
um, international um organization.
(23:37):
So we draw from Henry
Nouwen quite uh, a
bit because
he's both calling into question
some of our modern leadership assumptions and
demonstrating how a uh,
diversity of abilities informs that
discussion.
>> Martha Tatarnic (23:58):
Mm mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (23:59):
Then second we, we also in the book look at
a lot of you know, kind of the canonical
leadership literature that. The stuff that's out there that people read
where they say, right, you know, that to be a leader
is first and foremost about the, you know,
the skills of the leader or the makeup of
the community, you know, in a way that,
(24:20):
that, that talks about skills or abilities.
>> Loren (24:22):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (24:23):
You know, it tends to be grounded in
ideas of attributes. Right, right.
Like who are we as leaders? What are our
skills? How do we
um, contribute to the
process of leadership through uh,
productive and effective means.
>> Loren (24:43):
Right. Born or made type thing, you
know.
>> Andrew Draper (24:47):
Yeah. And we try to kind
of eschew that whole conversation
altogether. Not saying that there's nothing to be learned from it,
but we sort of look at that conversation
and we say, okay,
um, if, if it's not primarily
about skills or
attributes, um, and
(25:09):
it's not even primarily about who we are
in a uh, sort of
productivity, uh, oriented sense that
then what does leading look
like and what is leading in the way of Jesus look like? And we talk
about that being a faithful presence,
um, as we are
(25:30):
in limitations,
you know, I mean all through Scripture, right?
Limitation, uh, and weakness is seen
as a
picture of God's
very being. Um, we see that in
the incarnation, right, uh, that the
(25:52):
Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
um, not just to achieve victory in
a sort of Roman Empire kind of way,
but in a, in a. Laying
down one's life.
>> Loren (26:06):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (26:07):
Um, likewise, Paul says it's in
our weakness, that we are made strong, that it's in our
limitation that the power of God is
most clearly seen. And
so if that's the case,
then it's not first
and foremost our strengths or
our abilities
(26:29):
that point to
who we are in a, uh,
theologically thick sense, but
who we are, are creatures of
God who are loved
by God and with all of our particularities,
uh, we are drawn up into the life of
God through the life of Jesus. And that takes place
(26:51):
in a community, a community of people who are different from
one another. And leadership
is not always exercised, or
perhaps maybe isn't even usually
exercised, um, most
fully in the body of Christ in the ways that we assume.
>> Loren (27:09):
You know, I think something that comes
from this, that is so helpful
for pastors, for church leaders is what
you write here in the book you all write. Congregational
vitality cannot rest primarily on the
strengths of a particular leader. And I think this
stands in such stark contrast
to, I don't know, the
(27:31):
last, the early, certainly the first
20 years. Right. Of, I think, broadly
speaking American church
is that you need to have a dynamic
leader who will drive growth,
drive the attraction model.
>> Andrew Draper (27:51):
Mhm.
>> Loren (27:52):
And it's to me, when I read this,
I think, oh my goodness, what a gift.
And I think this is, broadly speaking, what is so often true
about. You talk about these
early on in the podcast, these different, uh,
theories and ideologies. They're often
such a gift. Like this disabling leadership concept
(28:14):
isn't not just a gift to those who might find themselves,
uh, you know, uh, in the disabled community. They're
often so often a gift to those who are not.
Because we're, we realize like the limitations
of ourselves and that we don't have to be
this superhuman type Persona.
>> Andrew Draper (28:32):
Yeah, well, I think that's a really
great point in that way. Disability
is a gift
to the church. It's a clear sign of the presence
of God. And I don't mean that in
a,
um, condescending
(28:53):
or tokenism. Um. Right. And I
don't mean that in an inspirational sense of
like, look how someone
with a disability has overcome it to the glory
of God. Which is how evangelicalism
often frames those kind of scenarios. You know, we
talk in the book about how people with disabilities, just like
(29:14):
anyone, are simply
human. Not to be pitied, not
to be heroes.
>> Loren (29:20):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (29:20):
Um, that said,
by
when, when the eternal life of God is
made known, especially
in the midst of our profound limitations,
we more easily see that the work is God's
(29:43):
and not our own. When
we have an Idea that somehow we
can adhere to the mythology of the self made man
or woman. Right.
Uh, that
creates the kind of.
>> Loren (30:00):
Celebrity.
>> Andrew Draper (30:00):
Um, Christianity that you're talking about, you
know, um, where there's
a powerful, gifted, dynamic person
on a stage.
>> Loren (30:10):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (30:11):
That people are drawn to. But
we've seen in the last decades that
that often does not translate into
maturity, deep character, a
whole life. Right. Sometimes the higher they
are, the bigger the pedestal, the
more harmful, uh, is the fall.
>> Loren (30:32):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (30:32):
Um, you know, when we start to
believe our press and
uh, get, you know, get too
big for our britches, as my dad would have said years ago,
you know, we start to,
um, we start to
subvert the work of God. And
(30:54):
that's why again,
there's so much in the kind of
attractional church growth,
uh, model M that you mentioned that has
contributed to that. But I think also
today we see there's also this whole sphere
of sometimes folks in the
(31:14):
deconstructive or exvangelical
spheres who, who
rail against all of that while
still carrying over
from it the sense of being the guru
or the, the expert that should be
listened to. Yes, we saw that in the whole Joshua
Harris thing. Right. From I Kiss Dating Goodbye to like
(31:37):
now I can sell you my deconstruction curriculum. You
know, um, you know, we're
disability cuts across all of that. It just says we're not
interested in that whole game. Uh, I'm not
interested right. In, in everything
about my appearance on
this podcast with you or my
personage with anybody
(31:59):
being,
uh, something, uh,
that it's not. Right.
>> Loren (32:07):
Yeah, yeah, this is good. Um, as much as
I want to continue down this road, let's shift
gears here to more practical. And I think one
of the things again that I appreciate about the book was
the philosophical that you all really, I think, have
so much richness and depth as we just talked about. But I think
there's also a lot of practical, really
(32:28):
practical, uh, stuff that helps. So,
um, I'm going to, again, I keep going to quotes
here because there are so many good quotes here that I thought. So you talk
about why a church's practices
represent its beliefs and commitments. And I
think this is really good. Like I'm
preaching monthly at a church and I tried to preach a very
(32:49):
similar message. Like, you know, we,
this church, broadly speaking, the denomination, all
that tries to convey a message of,
you know, inclusion and welcome. Yet the people
we claim to include and welcome are not here. So where's the
disconnect? Right, right, right.
Whether in, let me read this quote. Whether in
(33:10):
government or church or family, we proclaim our vision
of what our community should be by whom we
include or exclude. Lack of access
and lack of representation are mutually
reinforcing realities. It will take courageous action on
the part of the body Christ to live into the
reality of who we are. So talk
(33:30):
more about the disconnect between, you know,
beliefs and then what is actually practiced.
>> Andrew Draper (33:36):
Yeah, yeah. Well I'm glad
that you brought that up because let me say first our local church in
Muncie, Indiana, Urban Light, uh, is
not a picture perfect
example of inclusion. I mean we
have uh, a long way to
go in many areas. What we are
(33:56):
doing is thinking
through the ramifications of our
confession and
the, the um,
the broadness
of our local church
makeup, including our leaders,
(34:18):
um, so that
we can
offer
practices in an experimenting kind of way
for the body of Christ. We're not saying we have the corner
market on what it means to be inclusive. What
we are saying is here are the issues at
(34:38):
play and the practical realities of what we need to
be thinking about. And so I think your point is exactly right.
That oftentimes the disconnect between what we
proclaim and the reality in our own midst might be
broad. And I would just
encourage churches not to grow
weary or disheartened in that.
Um, you know,
(34:59):
keep proclaiming what should be even
when what should be is not in your own midst.
Um, at the
same time I would say
we always need to be careful.
Spiritual ah, pride is one of the worst,
uh, one of the worst sicknesses
(35:22):
the church can have. And
what I mentioned earlier about the certainty that can
sometimes, you know,
often infected the,
the kind of conservative roots that I
grew up in also can infect the
more progressive, justice oriented
(35:43):
congregations who are sort of like we get it and no one
else gets it.
>> Loren (35:47):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (35:48):
Right. While at the same time the makeup
of the church and who is
actually involved in leading may not reflect
the diversity of the body of Christ.
Um, for instance
when Jody preaches.
>> Loren (36:04):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (36:05):
She uh, asks someone, uh, often me
or someone else in the church to help her
communicate because of her speech, uh
impediment. She's a wonderful preacher, a
wonderful exegete of scripture.
Um and at the same
time we are very well
aware of that there are churches that value
(36:26):
being slick in a way that
just don't have the time for that sort of
practice.
>> Loren (36:32):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (36:34):
Uh, Andrea's
uh, daughter Shiloh, uh has
down syndrome and uh, often
engages in worship through uh,
loud vocalizations or
movements that
um, can easily draw
people's Attention. And
(36:55):
we, uh, try to
uh, talk about and include
those various expressions of worship in ways that
say, hey, this is what it means to
be the church and to worship with all that we are.
Um, you know, and so
true diversity is always going to be uncomfortable.
>> Loren (37:17):
Right?
>> Andrew Draper (37:18):
Um, you know, you're, you,
it's, it's hard to stay
on certain ideological lines, uh,
on, on either side or, or
to, um, to have a real
slick Sunday, uh, service
if you truly have a diversity
(37:40):
of expressions and people
groups who are contributing,
uh, to that time together. And
so I agree with you. Just
like there are very conservative,
legalistic congregations that are super homogenous.
There's also justice minded,
progressive congregations that are super
(38:02):
homogenous. And we always have
to do the hard, practical
work to break down those walls. And it
will be uncomfortable. Yeah, it'll be, it'll
be messy. Um, and it's
probably hard to do sometimes on a real large
scale.
>> Loren (38:19):
Let's stay on this point if I may, because
I mean, I think A, what you just said there is important.
It's, it's hard to do on a large scale.
So like popping out a bunch of
Insta church plants with 400
people, you know, in a month or two, that's gonna be
hard. But B, like, you talk about
this true diversity always being uncomfortable. As
(38:42):
I wrote it down, you know, you talk about your church, Urban
Light, thinking through the ramifications of your
confession. How do you,
as you know, obviously not just you, but
your pastoral staff, your volunteer leadership, the lay
leadership said, how do you all guide your.
Because I'm, I gotta imagine you prob. Had this
conversation. Someone on your staff, your lady of leadership,
(39:04):
has had this conversation with someone who's like, hey,
can we take a break? Like, can we just chill
out for a little bit? That kind of thing.
>> Andrew Draper (39:12):
Yeah.
>> Loren (39:13):
How do you, how do you guide that?
>> Andrew Draper (39:17):
Yeah, it's complex. I mean, that's why it's important to
have a diversity of people at those
conversations, um, so that it doesn't become
paternalistic or doesn't become something that
a congregation is doing on behalf of people
without including those people who are most
affected by those decisions. So, you know,
for instance, one
(39:39):
great practical step
is simply to ask people
what they need or what the
church community needs
to more fully include them
and to have honest conversations about those kind of things
across racial lines. You're going to hear things about music
(40:01):
and preaching and worship and
theology that
the church needs to be responsive to
within communities where there is a diversity of
abilities. You're Going to hear things about
transportation.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:19):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (40:20):
About sensory spaces,
about electronic documents that
can be read
in an audi. Auditory, uh,
fashion. Uh, um, you're going
to hear about, um,
elevators.
>> Martha Tatarnic (40:40):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (40:40):
You're going to hear about automatic doors.
You're going to hear about bathroom
stalls.
Um, you're going to hear about, about
uh, uh, the ways
meals are served.
Um, you're going to hear about
volume.
>> Loren (40:59):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (41:02):
I mean on and on and on. If, if you're
truly paying attention.
You know, I hear churches sometimes say things like, well,
we don't need an elevator because nobody in a
wheelchair comes. Well,
that's exactly right. Right. That is kind of a self fulfilling
prophecy. Or in our town,
(41:23):
um, public accessible
transportation runs through the week,
but public transportation does not run on Sundays for
instance.
>> Martha Tatarnic (41:34):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (41:34):
And so just little things like we bought an
accessible bus that was used from our local
bus company to be able to go around and pick people up
on Sundays. Because oftentimes people who
need accessible transportation are isolated,
uh, either on the weekends or in evenings
or isolated from being able to spend time in other
(41:55):
congregants homes or maybe can't even
get to church. Um, and then
once people get there, is there a
way for them to enter? So yes,
we're thinking about physical accommodations, but we're also
thinking about accommodations in terms of
visual, uh, and auditory. And when we have
(42:15):
Spanish speakers, you know, we're working on
translations and I mean
no church can, can perfectly
tackle each one of these dynamics, but we can
constantly be growing, we can constantly be
responding to the, to the real people
in front of us and learning
(42:37):
from resources like this book and
other disability studies
books. Um, you know, so that we're
not just putting everything back on disabled people to do
the work of education.
>> Loren (42:50):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (42:51):
But that we're responding to real
people so that the body of Christ can look more
like the kingdom of God and can be a more full
experience of Christ
church.
>> Loren (43:03):
Yeah. And I think that's one thing I for sure
appreciated about the book too was it wasn't
like, as I read it, it wasn't like judgy in
your faith, like in your face, you got to do this or you're horrible. It's
like, hey, let's keep taking steps.
I feel like you all are encouraging people take the next
step, uh, to be more welcoming and
inclusive.
>> Andrew Draper (43:26):
Uh, yeah, because then we also recognize where we get it wrong.
Right. I mean we share some of those stories
in the book. You know, we open the book with one of the
stories where I'm, you Know, rightfully so, not seen in
a real positive light, you know,
um, because I was thinking, hey, look how inclusive we are
that we have removed some pews and have some
(43:47):
disability sections and you know, right
away learning how quickly
that was reinforcing segregation, uh, in
the church and cutting down on
options for people with physical
limitations or uh, uh, accommodation
needs in regard to transportation.
>> Loren (44:05):
Let's talk about that before we take a break. I want to
ask about. Because you all write in the book about
the physicality of spiritual disciplines.
Uh, I'm thinking
receiving communion for me is something that
is for some reason in my life.
Uh, I hope it always this way. But for where I am
(44:26):
right now, coming forward,
putting out my hands just makes me
weak in the knees. When the pastor
extends to me, this is the body of Christ broken for
you.
Like I said, it really just impacts me.
That's something that may or may not be possible
(44:47):
for folks. And I'm thinking of so many other
spiritual practices
that can take place in a worship service or in the
life of faith. How do you
all, uh, balance that? How do you all navigate
those things?
>> Andrew Draper (45:04):
Mhm. That's great.
So we've tried to.
Let's use communion as an example.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:12):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (45:13):
The way you're talking about communion being served from a common
cup is what we've really
valued.
>> Martha Tatarnic (45:19):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (45:20):
In our congregation while at the same, you know, because we
don't want those little individual kind of shot
glass things. Right. That talk about us as sort of,
you know, our own individual salvation.
>> Loren (45:31):
But not especially like the plastic ones. You have to like crinkle
open and such.
>> Andrew Draper (45:35):
Right, exactly. With the little wafer on
top. Sometimes that's packaged in it.
But so what we've done is, um,
because our sanctuary has
um,
different levels, uh, and
spaces in it, we've
ensured that a people with
(45:55):
wheelchairs, uh, can make it to
every point of the sanctuary in different
ways. We set up several different
communion stations,
um, for people to be able to receive.
Um, we have four communion stations on
a Sunday. One in the balcony, two on the sides
and one down front, um, so that people
(46:18):
in different areas can come get it. For those
who, um, uh, need assistance,
we will bring the elements to
them. Um, but then we also ensure that people with
disabilities are involved in leading and serving
communion.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:33):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (46:34):
Uh, so that it's not, you
know.
>> Loren (46:37):
Receiving uh.
>> Andrew Draper (46:40):
The body of Christ, uh, in
a unidirectional, ah, sort of way.
>> Martha Tatarnic (46:45):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (46:46):
But we ensure that there's a diversity of people on a
rotation who are involved in Leading
communion or serving communion.
>> Loren (46:53):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (46:54):
Um, and then there's, there's as you
mentioned, the physicality of spiritual disciplines. I
mean our postures of
worship, our
um, the way we vocalize,
ah, having
um, a low sensory
(47:16):
room in the back of the sanctuary where people
maybe who uh, are autistic
or um, uh, have
sensory uh, needs can
uh, get away for a little bit.
Um, it's not uncommon in our
service for people to get up and move
around at different points. We have a, a greeting
(47:38):
time in the middle where we pass the peace of Christ.
>> Martha Tatarnic (47:41):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (47:41):
And in some ways it's kind of like the seventh inning stretch before the
message, you know, where, you know, people hit the,
hit the bathroom and grab a coffee or whatever.
And it is kind of. It can be awkward, right? It can be
awkward, stand up, move around,
in and out. Um, it doesn't make
for, you know, like great TV production
(48:01):
necessarily, but, but
it does lend itself to
uh, experiencing the diversity of the body.
>> Loren (48:10):
I suppose it gets back to, I feel like something
we've talked about of that kind of like cookie
cutter attractional model of
church where it's like the dim lights and
the excellent worship band
and the streamlined
35 minute or 45 minute,
you know, sermon message. Like
(48:33):
you've kind of just got to be able to let go both, I
imagine the pastor, the church
leadership and the Karnians themselves. Like the people in
the pews, so to speak, have got to be okay with
like this is all good. Like if we're
singing on key, if someone's
making noises that don't feel
like it's all part of the worship. Right. Like
(48:55):
that's the shift.
>> Andrew Draper (48:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
it's interesting because, you know,
we do want to, in our areas
of giftedness, uh,
do the best that we can.
>> Martha Tatarnic (49:09):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (49:10):
Um,
and by that I mean even pursuing
excellence, say musically or in preaching
or.
>> Loren (49:19):
Um.
>> Andrew Draper (49:20):
But some of it is simply
teaching and redefining
what some of those things mean.
>> Loren (49:27):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (49:28):
Um,
for instance, you mentioned the 45
minute sermon that's kind
of slickly organized and done
and there's maybe the visuals and the
outline and the whole thing. I'm not saying there's anything
inherently wrong with that. Although
(49:49):
what I would say is if, if the
majority of your preaching at a local church
is one
particular person every single Sunday, who's doing
that similar kind of thing.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:02):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (50:02):
Um, you're limiting what the
body of Christ is experiencing. Um.
M. You know, and as we know a lot of
larger churches who do that sort of Thing,
uh, even are buying
sermon outlines and curriculum now. I mean, that's not
a unheard of thing for the
sermon series to be pre
(50:24):
written, uh, and kind
of brought in.
Um, so
I guess that's what's hard about it
is
you want to bring your whole self and that
includes your skills and abilities.
>> Martha Tatarnic (50:43):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (50:44):
While at the same time recognizing that there is a diversity
of gifts in the body.
>> Loren (50:49):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (50:50):
And a diversity of ways of experiencing that. You know, you
mentioned lighting, for instance.
Um, you know,
darker lighting, as is the
case in many churches
nowadays, might contribute to more
of a feeling of immediacy between the
individual and their experience.
>> Martha Tatarnic (51:11):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (51:12):
Of God or emotional experience or whatever in that
moment. Um,
and may make people feel more free.
But we also have to realize that another thing that it does is
it draws all attention up to a stage.
>> Loren (51:26):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (51:26):
It draws attention away from the body
as the lights are dark and you can't see the body
of Christ around you. It draws attention
away from the community.
>> Loren (51:37):
Yep.
>> Andrew Draper (51:38):
Um, and then it also provides a hazard for
people who maybe, um,
uh, are in wheelchairs or
who may, uh, have visual
impairments. M. Or whatever the case might
be. Um, you know,
darkness is not ideal
for the constitution of the body of Christ or the experience
(52:00):
of many people with disabilities.
>> Loren (52:02):
Yeah. Well, uh, there's so much good stuff.
I really recommend the book Disabling
A Practical Theology for the Broken Body of
Christ co, uh, written by our guests today,
Nandra Draper, Jodi Michel and Andrea May.
Encourage folks to check it out. Let's take a quick break
and we'll come back with some closing questions.
(52:25):
All right, we're back with Reverend Dr. Nandra Draper.
So thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate the
conversation. I always tell folks these
closing questions, you're welcome to take some of them as
seriously or not as you'd like to.
So, you know, don't get too tripped up
on. If, uh, you're Pope for a day,
(52:46):
what, uh, do you want to do, serious or not, with that day?
>> Andrew Draper (52:52):
Uh, first, if I'm Pope for a day,
I don't know if a Pope could unilaterally push this through.
But take seriously the conversation on women in
ministry. I think would be one, that would be
really important.
Um,
two, uh, think through.
I guess by being Pope, I would be Roman Catholic,
(53:14):
so think through. How can, how could I have a
more encourage, uh, a more
inclusive, uh, eucharistic table.
>> Martha Tatarnic (53:22):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (53:23):
Um,
try, uh, to think carefully through how
can the experience of the universal body of
Christ be more representative
of um,
people in, in non Western countries.
>> Loren (53:43):
Yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (53:44):
And I, because obviously the, the
church,
um, just numerically
is not primarily
Western. Although, uh,
in, in, in many ways
leadership, uh, of, of many of
our denominational or
(54:06):
theological traditions does um,
not always reflect that.
>> Loren (54:10):
Right, right. Yeah, that's good.
Um, a theologian or Christian historical
figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
>> Andrew Draper (54:19):
Oh, wow.
Oh, there's so many.
I would love to meet
Julian of Norwich Camp,
Talk to her about her experience of
having visions of Christ and
(54:43):
all things being made new and right.
Um, in the midst of suffering and pain. Um, I would
love to talk with her about that.
Um,
I'd love to, uh, chat with Karl
Bart. He was such a character.
Uh, I'd also like to ask him some questions about
(55:04):
how in the world he justified his relationship with
Charlotte von Kirschbaum.
Um, but that would be really interesting is to talk
to Karl Barth.
Um,
Gustavo Gutierrez passed away recently and I always
wished I had gotten to meet him.
>> Martha Tatarnic (55:21):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (55:24):
Um, yeah, there's so
many. Maybe
someday, um, in the new
heaven and new earth,
uh, with the resurrection of the body and the communion of
saints, we can have some of those chats.
>> Loren (55:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I'm getting a little bit off track here, but you know, I think because
Juliana Vorwitch, if I'm remembering correctly, she's known for the
all will be well. Yeah,
right.
>> Andrew Draper (55:54):
Yep.
Yeah. She had this series of visions.
She had asked the Lord for a
sickness leading unto death that would allow her to experience
Christ's passion. And.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:08):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (56:09):
She got deathly ill and had these, had these visions
that she recorded, um, after
she got better. And um,
in one of them she was really struggling with the problem of
evil and just kind of going, lord, how
why did there have to be sin? Why did there have to be evil?
Like.
>> Martha Tatarnic (56:27):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (56:28):
Uh, you know, what's going on with that? Wouldn't it have
been better if that had never been the case?
>> Loren (56:34):
Right.
>> Andrew Draper (56:34):
And,
and she doesn't get an
answer as, as far
as why, as much as the
assurance that all
shall be well and all shall be well
and all manner of things shall be well.
(56:54):
I think the quote is something along the lines of
that, um,
that sin was necessary, but
that when all
things are restored and all is made new,
that
basically that uh, our understanding
(57:15):
of what is wrong with the world will
pale in comparison to what has been made.
Right.
>> Loren (57:22):
Okay, I've got to ask this and we're, I'm getting off track here
and we're running out of Time, so don't go
too long. But I gotta ask and I just, I'm thinking about
the current context recording this on November
15th. So much, so much of our
nation is. I, uh, mean
there's so many folks who voted a certain way
(57:42):
in the election that are very
disheartened and disillusioned. And I'm thinking, because I'm
literally preaching this Sunday a message that I wrote
before November 5,
um, on the idea that
like God is in control, God is God.
Which seems trite in some ways, but also
(58:02):
how, I mean, what is your,
I don't know, pastorally,
theologically, how do you convey to folks who are
like, all will not be well, you know,
God is not in control, or if God is in control, this is
awful type scenario. Like, I don't know if that makes
any sense.
>> Andrew Draper (58:22):
Yeah, that does make sense. So one, theologically I'd
say all will be well and God is in control are
two different statements.
>> Loren (58:29):
Okay.
>> Andrew Draper (58:30):
Um, all will be well
is a
recognition that God
will weave together all the disparate strands of
history, all the mess, all the sin, all the
everything into
something beautiful in the end. That death
will be defeated, sin will be
(58:52):
defeated, and all will be made.
Right. That's a different
statement than God is in control. What do
I mean by that?
>> Loren (59:01):
At least broadly speaking, Control as in like
pulling the strings control.
>> Andrew Draper (59:05):
Right, yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
I guess I'm thinking more of the view of sovereignty that
some people popularly use where they say like, you know,
everything happens for a reason.
>> Loren (59:15):
Right. I don't want to.
>> Andrew Draper (59:18):
Yeah. And I know you're not saying that, but I'm just more
talking to people out there who might sort of think
that control means sovereignty in
the sense that.
>> Martha Tatarnic (59:28):
Mhm.
>> Andrew Draper (59:29):
Uh, you know, there is a strong
kind of determinism that God, that we're just sort of
puppets on a string and God's just kind of
making everything happen for his greater glory.
And I think we have to just
admit some uncertainty in these
regards. Right. Like, I'm definitely
(59:49):
not going to commit to a strong deterministic
view, nor am I going to commit to a strong kind of open
theist view because I feel like either of those extremes
sort of presume on what we can know about
God.
>> Loren (01:00:01):
Right, right.
>> Andrew Draper (01:00:03):
So instead I'm just sort of making the
observation that the kingdom of
God is not the kingdom of this
world. That
doesn't mean that we shouldn't work for justice within the
kingdoms of this world. We should. And so I get
is very Fair for people to say right now
(01:00:24):
the world does not feel like good
is winning. This is awful. I am
in the middle of pain,
marginalization, oppression, whatever the case might be,
and we need to resist it. I'm on board with
that. At the same time recognizing
that we can't by our own strength,
bring the kingdom of God into being. Right. Like it
(01:00:47):
is. Jesus teaches us to pray, your
kingdom come and your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
So, yes, we are co heirs with Christ, co
laborers with God. Uh,
I'm not talking about a sort of, you know,
escapism here where we just go, oh, the world's going to burn and
we're going to wait for the sweet bye and bye. I
(01:01:07):
am talking about being engaged in making this
world a better place, at the same time realizing
that all of our activity falls short and
it's only God who can actually bring new life out of
nothing. It's only God who creates
ex nihilo. Right. And
so. And so that's the kind of the way
(01:01:27):
I would temper those statements is yes, God
is in control. If by that we mean God will bring
history to its proper end at the proper time in
a way that good and love win.
>> Loren (01:01:39):
Right. And you're saying, like, you're
thinking of control as in the weaving together,
of making good out of the
brokenness. Is that fair? Yeah, yeah.
>> Andrew Draper (01:01:50):
Well, yeah, kind of the idea of like all things working together
for good or.
>> Loren (01:01:55):
Yeah, this is good because I'm going to include this in my sermon
in this, Julian.
Well, because I think. I think, you know, we're. I'm
off track here, but I think this is the, the
nuance, the balance that I think is so hard because you're right,
it does. It does tend to.
It does tend to. To flow into those
(01:02:20):
spectrums.
>> Andrew Draper (01:02:21):
Yeah.
>> Loren (01:02:22):
Of. Well, if God is control,
that means everything is deterministic. And, you know,
why is that? And then
certainly I'm. I'm very familiar with the open theism and the
process theology. And,
uh, there's some things that I'm just. I
don't know that that leads me dissatisfied too.
Um, so I think the theme of this book
(01:02:45):
and Yalls work has been
nuance and balance and tension. So
I'm. I'm appreciating that tension.
>> Andrew Draper (01:02:52):
There is a lot of that in it. Right.
>> Loren (01:02:54):
And balance throughout all of this. Well,
share, if you would, here how folks can
connect with you, all the church, you know, the
authors, all that stuff.
>> Andrew Draper (01:03:05):
Yeah, great. Um,
so there are multiple ways to connect with us.
Um, first you can connect with the book on
obviously Amazon or
ivp. Um, Academic
is the publisher.
Um, on
Amazon, you can also get,
(01:03:25):
um, accessible
versions that are electronically
readable.
Um, as far as
connecting with us personally,
um, we each have
active Facebook pages and
uh, X accounts, although I don't know
(01:03:46):
how long X is kind of a
dumpster fire right now.
Um, I mean, it's blue sky as.
>> Loren (01:03:53):
We'Re talking, I guess is the thing.
>> Andrew Draper (01:03:55):
Yeah, I don't even know. It's hard for me to stay up with it
all. Um, we, uh, each have
blogs. Um, you can
find mine, uh,
@AndrewtDraper.com I
think is what it is. You can find our church,
urbanlightmonsy.com
um, Jody and Andrea both have blogs. And I'm,
(01:04:16):
I'm, I'm sorry, but I'm struggling to remember the,
the, uh, the web addresses right now
for those. But if you connect with us on, on Facebook,
Jody, Michelle or Andrea May,
uh, we can, you know, get you connected.
Um, you can go through our church
website. Uh, there, there are multiple ways to get a
(01:04:36):
hold of us. Um, I'm also, like I said, on staff
at Weinbrenner Seminary in Findlay,
Ohio. We, um,
uh, offer, um, really, um,
flexible, uh, accessible and affordable
accredited, uh, education.
You can get a hold of me through our website, mindbrenner.
(01:04:57):
Edu.
Um, and yeah, we'd love to have
continued conversations with you.
>> Loren (01:05:03):
Yeah, well, I appreciate, really appreciate this
conversation, really appreciate the book. So thank you
to yourself and um,
Jody and Andrea for their contributions here.
So always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Andrew Draper (01:05:19):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
>> Loren Richmond (01:05:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(01:05:50):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.