September 2, 2025 • 39 mins
What does it mean to lead the church toward vitality in a time of disruption, decline, and shifting cultural landscapes? In this episode, Loren sits down with Dr. F. Douglas Powe Jr., President of Phillips Theological Seminary. Recorded live at the General Assembly of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), this conversation explores how seminaries and congregations alike can foster authentic belonging, support diverse pathways into ministry, and reimagine theological education for the future. Doug reflects on his first six months at Phillips, the seminary’s bold tuition initiative, and the vision behind Bedford House—a new space designed to embody belonging for marginalized and underrepresented communities. He also shares his hopes for how churches can model unity and reconciliation in a divided world.
Topics include:
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Why belonging must come before believing for new generations
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How Bedford House embodies Phillips Seminary’s commitment to inclusion
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The challenges and opportunities of rural and small-church ministry
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Alternative pathways into ministry beyond the traditional M.Div.
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Why theological education must adapt without losing its core formation
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The role of social justice engagement in calling new leaders
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Dr. Powe’s hopes for the church in an age of disruption and division
Rev. F. Douglas Powe Jr., PhD is President of Phillips Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Okla., where he leads the seminary in its work toward deep learning, faithful leadership and global impact. An ordained elder in The United Methodist Church, Dr. Powe is a respected scholar, teacher, and author whose work explores congregational vitality, urban ministry, and innovative approaches to evangelism. Before leading Phillips, he served as Director of the Lewis Center for Church Leadership and James C. Logan Professor of Evangelism at Wesley Theological Seminary. His books include Sustaining While Disrupting, The Adept Church, and Transforming Evangelism. A graduate of Ohio Wesleyan University, Emory University’s Candler School of Theology, and Emory’s Graduate Division of Religion, Dr. Powe is widely sought after for his insights on faith, leadership, and the changing ministry environment.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 Book: https://www.cokesbury.com/The-Adept-Church?vsl=2487
📖 Book: https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506479200/Sustaining-While-Disrupting
🌐 Phillps Seminary: https://ptstulsa.edu/
🎧 Past Episode with Doug Powe: Sustaining While Disrupting
🎧 Past Episode with Doug Powe: The Adept Church
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
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(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
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designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
the Reverend F. Douglas Poe Jr.
Dr. Poe is President of Phillips
Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma
and an ordained elder in the United Methodist
Church. A noted scholar and author on
congregational vitality and evangelism,
(01:07):
he has written several books including the
Adept Church and Sustaining While
Disrupting. President Poe is a sought
after speaker on faith leadership and the future
of the church. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
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(01:29):
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>> Loren (01:56):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm grateful
to be here recording live and in person with President
Doctor. Reverend Reverend Doctor what's your official title? Doug Powe.
>> Doug Powe (02:05):
It is. And actually,
um, it is
of course President, uh, Powe, but
I'm actually the Muzan Biggs professor,
uh, of Methodist Studies at Phillips.
So it's exciting to, um,
be able to take on such a wonderful title that was
(02:26):
filled by, of course, ah, Dr. Biggs and
um, Dr. Blue, uh, previously, uh,
but more importantly my role as part.
>> Loren (02:34):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to having that conversation. So we're
actually recording in person at
the General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ,
which is exciting. So if you hear some chatter and buzz and
maybe an interruption, that's what it is.
Uh, but let's begin, I suppose, with that. This is
your first General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of
(02:54):
Christ.
>> Doug Powe (02:56):
What do you think? It has been really,
really wonderful. I appreciate sort of
the, um, spirit throughout the
place and
worship has been creative and wonderful.
Um, kicked off by Dr. Uh, Bernice King.
>> Loren (03:13):
Wasn't that great?
>> Doug Powe (03:14):
Which was just, um, absolutely fantastic.
And the way she
connected it to her
father's, um, sort of
last course, uh, Speech and
Ultimate Assassination in Memphis,
uh, to leap to where we need to
(03:35):
go today and what we need to do now was, um,
really, really brilliant. So that was, um.
It was really sort of special to be a part, to hear
her, to make that sort of connection.
>> Loren (03:46):
Yeah. I was like, I have. I want, if nothing else,
to be there.
I mean, I'm younger than you. I'm a white
man. So I think for me it was sort of startling and it
perhaps a good reminder to think like.
Like, uh, she's not that old. Like, this isn't. This is within
her lifetime.
>> Doug Powe (04:06):
Yes.
>> Loren (04:07):
Um, and that was a. Helpful, I think, reminders to. To be
reminded of the
past is not that long ago. And. And of course, like she did, she tied
it back. Like there's some things happening in the
moment which are very troubling.
>> Doug Powe (04:20):
That's right. She, um. She made the connection
of sort of with all that
we thought we had accomplished. We find ourselves
sort of back at the many of the moments her
father faced. And she even talked about,
um, the story, which was a great story to
hear, uh, about when she, her
(04:41):
father was going to speak at the disciples
meeting. It wasn't, uh, the Christian church at that point, but
speak at the disciples meeting in Dallas, Texas.
And at that time, the pushback that was taking
place, but, uh, Disciples, you know,
were firm that we'll go to a different city if that's the
case. Uh, and that,
(05:01):
um, was. Was sort of a special story to
relate of. Um, it really was this sort of
the connection that the family had even to,
uh, disciple. So. Yeah, really a powerful way to begin.
>> Loren (05:13):
Absolutely.
Well, so we're,
we're here and I want to hear about, you
know, you've just come on to Phillips Seminary. I'm really excited.
Like, I was so excited. Obviously we've talked before on the podcast.
I'll try to link some previous episodes we've talked,
but I was really excited because, like, I've been familiar with your
work, followed your work with the Lewis
(05:34):
center and even your podcast there.
So I was thrilled when I saw this news that you were being hired.
So you've been at Philips, what, a couple, three months?
>> Doug Powe (05:44):
Six months, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I know. It's
amazing. Yeah. Six months.
>> Loren (05:48):
What, like, what do you think? Like, what are
your initial observations?
>> Doug Powe (05:53):
It really has been wonderful. Um, the
hospitality from, um, everyone has been
fantastic. The willingness to sort of,
uh, engage and entertain new
thoughts. Um, I couldn't have asked for
anything more. Phillips is really in a
wonderful and unique space where
(06:14):
we, um, are doing very well, doing very well
financially. Um, so Much so that
we're able to offer, ah,
100% scholarship help to
disciples and underrepresented
populations and 80% to pretty
much, um, everyone else. Um, and we do that
for of course, both Master, Divinity and Demon,
(06:36):
which is the unique piece.
Um, and I'm excited about that
because in today's world,
where, particularly in our area, and I'll talk about this a little
bit later, where many of the people are going to go into rural ministry,
um, they're not going to go into healing huge steeple
churches. To be able to help students to get through
(06:56):
seminary debt free, I think
is just tremendously huge. Um,
and it's a real gift. So I'm excited to be at
a place that can really offer that sort of financial
support to train students
well, but at the same time make sure that
they don't come out of seminary with this mountain of
(07:16):
debt that in some cases
happens, um, way too often for students who
are going to go into a similar place and not be able
to actually
maintain, uh, a good balance in their life.
Um, but, uh, the other piece that's
been exciting for me, frankly,
(07:36):
um, this has
been learning about Oklahoma
and Tulsa. I was familiar with it. I, um, was
at St. Paul School of Theology in uh,
Missouri for a while. So familiar with Oklahoma,
but really learning about the Tulsa area,
um, and just a commitment
(07:56):
there to sort of indigenous,
um, sort of, um,
studies and the individuals
and learning opportunities for
Phillips to even do more in that area.
Um, because it's such a critical piece of the history.
Um, um, and it's important, I think, uh,
for us to be part of making sure that
(08:20):
we, yeah, the stories are told and we offer
opportunities, uh, that take place,
um, to educate and
you know, make a difference also within the
indigenous community, respecting, of course.
>> Loren (08:33):
Right.
>> Doug Powe (08:35):
What is taking place already within those communities. So
it really has been. Been good and, um,
excited about the work that I'm going to get to do.
>> Loren (08:43):
And certainly Phillips has done a lot around trying, uh,
to honor the legacy and memory of the
Tulsa race riots and lifting up those stories
that were silenced in many ways.
>> Doug Powe (08:54):
Yeah. Um, it has been really
interesting. Um, I
grew up sort of knowing that history,
um, and didn't realize how unique
that was until I actually came
to Tulsa and heard from so
many people who grew up in Tulsa that they were
(09:14):
not familiar with the Tulsa
race sort of, uh, massacre
until much later in life and
recently that. That really. That history
just was hidden from them.
>> Loren (09:29):
Wow.
>> Doug Powe (09:29):
Um, so it is, um, in
some ways a gift that we're able to
do that lectureship, but also in some ways sad
that lectureship is necessary.
Um, my hope with it is that we're able
to not just do a historical
perspective of, uh, sort of this
(09:50):
is what happened, but it's more so to help us think
about the future and hopefully not to make the same
mistake again. And what are the signs and what are the things
we can do that we truly can
avoid these sort of things taking place
again, um, in our country? Because,
I mean, it's devastating. And the
(10:10):
impact. I mean, if you get an opportunity to come to
Tulsa, Ah. And as a community, of course, is
rebuilding, but, uh, the impact of what
it caused within the community is
devastating. Completely, uh, devastating.
>> Loren (10:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the. If I
read correctly, the mayor has been initiating some work
there too.
>> Doug Powe (10:31):
The mayor has definitely been initiating work. Tulsa,
uh, has an African mayor, American, um, mayor, and
might be the first. I'm not. Don't quote me on that to be
certain, but, um, really wants
to sort of honor the legacy
of those who suffered by
giving back and is
(10:52):
initiating sort of, uh, educational
opportunities, um, for those who are
connected. And those educational opportunities,
I think are important. There are some who have been
critical, saying it's not gone far enough. And.
And I always caution people to say,
you know, we always want people to
(11:13):
sort of somehow magically wave a
wand and make m. Everything we want
happen. And I'm like, that rarely is the case. And
I think what he's trying to do is say we've got to
start someplace.
>> Loren (11:25):
Sure.
>> Doug Powe (11:26):
And, you know, and he's trying to put in
place that place where we can start to, uh,
actually try to
repair some of, uh, what has taken place
for the people who have suffered the most.
>> Loren (11:40):
Well, I was really excited to see that when I read that.
Uh, so I think it's a great move
and great story.
I want to ask, when you think about Phillips and
certainly this episode, this conversation is going to
be very Disciples of Christ centric.
Uh, I hope to have bring in some insights
from your experience as a Methodist and Methodist
(12:01):
world. But I'm curious, when we think
about a conversation I have often on the podcast
is around theological education, certainly future of the
church. And I think theological education is very important to future
church. What are your
thoughts and I'm curious that are like any key priorities as you think
about the future that you're hoping to lead at Phillips?
>> Doug Powe (12:22):
A couple that, um, I've
talked about. One is
Phillips, um, right now is in the midst
of, um, sort
of building a new building called Bedford House. Right.
Um, and, uh, very exciting. And Bedford
House is going to. We talk about as a place of
(12:42):
belonging. And that word belonging is
intentional. Intentional, um, in that,
um. Phillips, of course, is a progressive seminary in the
midst of a, uh, place in Oklahoma
that is not nearly quite as progressive. Right.
So when you think of belonging for all of the people
who have been marginalized or underrepresented,
(13:02):
um, in a place where they can feel safe,
um, belonging is important. So,
um, LGBTQTI community, indigenous
community, African American community. I mean, you could just
go down a line. But a place where
individuals can come and
not only learn, but
call it home. A place where they can truly belong.
(13:26):
So really sort of, um, helping to
unpack that idea of belonging more, I think is
important. So building to building, obviously is important
and is critical. But I think the real
work, um, that I'm hoping where
I can, um, build off of what has already taken
place is really helping us to unpack that idea of
belonging and why it's important not
(13:48):
just for students, but for the church as a whole.
Um, and that space becomes a place of
belonging for, um, individuals to,
uh, come and feel like in the
midst of sometimes what can feel like,
um, spaces that
aren't safe, they can find that place
(14:09):
where they can have voice, be at the table
and truly belong. And the other I sort of
alluded to earlier, I think it's critically important that
we really help not only,
um, prepare students for rural ministry,
but also with those who are already doing rural
ministry, really help them to
(14:30):
feel that the work they're doing not only
is essential because it is, but give
them the resources to really do it. Well,
I think, um, because
within mainline, which disciples is there's
been this overall decline. Um, the goal
is how do we become sort of larger and how do
(14:51):
we create larger churches? The
reality is what we have to do, not
that we don't want larger churches. Yeah, I'm not
saying that. But we have to think about vitality,
particularly of our rural and
small congregation. The vitality doesn't
necessarily mean large. It means how do we make
(15:11):
sure that we're impacting the community and that we're
vital to the work that needs to be done. And I
think we can make a real difference. Um,
and that area, particularly given
our context, that very
rural and even the surrounding states around us, of
Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Southern
Colorado. Yeah, all very rural areas, that
(15:36):
work will be critically important.
>> Loren (15:38):
Well, I think it's so great. I think both those points you
highlighted, I mean, I've been
fascinated late with this how certainly you
probably studied this in your work at the belonging.
How that model has flipped of like Belong.
>> Doug Powe (15:52):
Uh, yeah, yeah. Believes. Yes.
>> Loren (15:54):
Believe, behave, Belong.
>> Doug Powe (15:56):
That's right. And belonging now is what is critical.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is
absolutely true.
Um, and it, it
goes um, and, and I'm forgetting her name.
Diane Butler Bass. Diane Butler Bass, yes. Is the one
who sort um of initiated that work. And, and
in the work she talks about, belonging
(16:19):
is sort of. Particularly for newer
generations, believing is not where they start,
it's belonging. And if they
belong they may work their
way to believing. Um, and I think that's
absolutely true. And the model we're sort
of building is that we really want to help people belong. And in
belonging, hopefully you will find your
(16:42):
space of moving into the believing
aspect.
>> Loren (16:45):
And I just got to give a shout out to the idea, the
Bedford House again which cracks with this
belonging because I remember when I was a student coming down
for module week long classes and I
was fortunate in most instances where I found something
to stay with but you know,
having that opportunity to rub shoulders with
fellow students, you know, there's just such
(17:08):
a important step I felt like
in my journey fulfilling
belonging and connectedness and all those
things. So I'm just so glad to see it.
>> Doug Powe (17:18):
Well, and it's an opportunity
also um, in
terms of learning, of bringing
diverse people together. I mean part
of belonging again as like I say it's easy
to sort of talk about it, but even within
underrepresented communities when you are in the
(17:39):
same space and then you start sort of
negotiating things that
those also could be challenging conversations. So it's not just
majority sort of versus
underrepresented, um, using versus
loosely but it's even in underrepresented
like how do we belong together
and how do we understand and
(18:02):
work towards common goals together. So,
so I think uh, for me it's exciting that there's going to be those
opportunities like you say, where students will
get an opportunity to sort of
um, learn um, and community
together of this is a lot more challenging
than I thought to actually create space,
(18:23):
you know, because some of the assumptions I may have had
now are actually getting tested in ways I didn't expect them
to get tested so good.
>> Loren (18:30):
You know, societally we are such.
We can be so filtered into our bubbles and into our
spaces. So any opportunity for that
third space or intimate mingling is so good.
I want to ask you about your work with Lewis center
and even if you want to extend it more broadly
from the United Methodist Church, I Mean
(18:51):
I don't know if you felt this way in the United Methodist Church, but I feel like
in Disciples world
denominations for a good reason can be very insular.
I'm curious like what do you think about uh, what are some
of your leanings from your time at Lewis center could be
applicable to Phillips or perhaps to the denomination, the
Disciples at large?
>> Doug Powe (19:11):
Yeah, I'll look at it from sort
of the Lewis Center. Um,
one of the things that attracted Peter Phillips
um, is the center for Administrative Lay Trading
cmlt um, and it's
not trying to make cmlt,
uh carbon copy of the Lewis center. But CMLT
(19:32):
is really unique um, I think within the
Disciples community for the work that it's doing
and its offerings of offering
um, an avenue for
those who don't get an mdiv,
um to still become pastors
with a non uh degree plan. And
I understand that. I think Lexington does it for
(19:55):
um, those who are now Latino, Hispanic community
um, and others. But um,
more broadly CMLT
is sort of unique in sort of the sort of non
degree class offerings. I think
there's a tremendous opportunity
learning from the Lewis center to sort of expand those
opportunities um,
(20:17):
and to build up on what has already taken
place. Because if you think about
more and more people in the future becoming bi vocational
that they're not going to probably have the
opportunity in some cases to do
degree offerings. So CMLT is
going to be the place where they're going to be able to connect to
(20:38):
theological education. Um, so my work at
the Lewis Center I think is going to be helpful as I work
with our director there, uh, Leslie
Lesure and thinking about what are the opportunities
that make sense. Yeah, um, certainly within a
disciple context where we can expand
um, and not only connect with disciples but more broadly with
(20:58):
others where it makes sense um, to
offer things that are going to be helpful to
those who may be interested in theological education but don't want
to do a degree program. Those who are bi vocational
that just can't
have the time to do the sort of even
sort of um, asynchronous route for
(21:20):
um degree theological education
and then lay training. I mean what are the
opportunities for lay who may be interested
in you know I want to do just this
one thing but seminaries
often don't offer this right sort of one thing or if
it's in class it's at a time when I
can't do it because I have to work. So CMLT
(21:42):
is going to be the perfect space to be able to make those sort
of one off offerings For a thing. So. So I. I
really think, um, at the Lewis center, it's going to
be helpful in working,
um, with Leslie and thinking about
what are those places that we can
really build out some of the offerings that
will be wonderful and making that a huge
(22:04):
success as we move forward.
>> Loren (22:06):
I'm really excited to hear that. And
as I learn more about ascending for
ministry. Late training. Because this was a conversation I
had recently in the past podcast guests.
We talked about how these stackable.
>> Doug Powe (22:20):
Yeah.
>> Loren (22:21):
Certificates or that kind of model of like, someone
might. I mean, gosh, you know, I remember
2009, when I started my seminar journey. Like, it
was such a. Such a
big thing to bite off. And I remember
that, like, that first semester.
>> Doug Powe (22:37):
Yeah.
>> Loren (22:37):
My wife was like, lauren, this is not. You
can't chew all this.
>> Doug Powe (22:41):
Right. Right.
>> Loren (22:42):
He did not have kids yet. And I remember that second
semester, I cut down my class load until
I could kind of find an equilibrium.
But I'm sure you know this better
than I do. Like, there's people who don't make it from that first year, that second
year because it is too much to chew off.
And then when you think about the complications of student loans and
(23:03):
financials, that's right. To me, it's just like, we have
so much more sense and it's such an easier
sell to a student and their families. Like, hey, we're
going to start with like a.
I don't know what, uh, works with the terms
three months, six months or something. I like bite
size. Chewable, to use save a
(23:24):
metaphor.
>> Doug Powe (23:24):
Yeah.
>> Loren (23:26):
I'm thrilled to hear it and I'm thrilled. Like, it just.
To me, it makes so much sense to think about, like, the. The
infrastructure that a place like Philips
has to serve lay leaders in
churches. I'm thrilled to see what comes of
it.
>> Doug Powe (23:40):
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. But I'm really excited about that
work.
>> Loren (23:44):
Yeah.
I want to ask, since we're kind of on this broad
topic of theological education. Uh,
um, I mean, actually kind of talked around
it already. Like, are there any other thoughts?
Again, past conversation I had on the podcast
was kind of like, it seemed like in some instances,
like, the value of it
(24:04):
m. Divorce or even theological education
writ large within some Christian context is kind of
declining. I mean, you're in the market
of theological education. Uh, what are your
thoughts on continuing to value
theological education within church or
Protestantism at large?
>> Doug Powe (24:23):
Yeah, I think,
um,
it's not the value. Is it declining?
The. The challenge is that
you have a perfect storm where
mainline denominations are declining.
>> Loren (24:39):
Yeah.
>> Doug Powe (24:40):
And the Reality of mainline denominations
declining is that
you have the need for less full
time pastors. Right.
Um, so it's not that they don't value
sort of, particularly in this case the Master
Divinity is that where
(25:01):
are you going to put them? Yeah, right. So, so that,
that's the, the sort of struggle,
um, and all
seminaries, particularly mainline are going to have to
deal with that, that challenge of
that likely they're going to be less
Master Divinity students because
literally the place
(25:23):
that supports us, there isn't a home
for those students.
Um, given the current
circumstance that there's been
decline each year. And again this is where
I think uh, the center for Administrative Lay training is so
valuable that what's going to have to happen is you're going to have to
have sort of different pathways to help
(25:45):
educate students. The Master of Divinity
is still going to be critically important. Um,
it's just not going to be the only way that
you educate students that you're going to have to
have available something similar
to what we have in the uh, center for Ministry and Lay
Training, um, moving forward. Because
(26:06):
people are still going to go into ministry,
um, and the Disciples,
Methodists, Presbyterian, whatever, are still going to have people
in ministry. It's just that they're going to have alternative
pathways for how individuals get there. And the question
is how do you educate those people?
And thinking about that now just so you're
(26:28):
prepared to have the alternative pathway to educate them I think
is going to be critically important. So
the difference I think is going to be
before pretty much
there was sort of one major pathway to get
there. Um, now you're going to have more than that one
major pathway to get there. Um,
(26:48):
just because even though people may
want the Master of Divinity
degree, um, the reality
is that it's going to be tougher and tougher to place
individuals with a Master of Divinity degree because there just aren't going to
be enough congregations that can support
sort of um, the full time package
(27:11):
needed to do so.
>> Loren (27:12):
I should ask about this even if there's kind
of getting the weeds a little bit. But it's something that I've been curious about.
Folks have had conversations certainly like
whether the M M Div itself should be reimagined as
more like a, like an MBA type degree.
Uh, do you have any thoughts around that, whether like the end Div
itself needs to be examined?
>> Doug Powe (27:32):
Um, I think that the M.
Div certainly
has to
um,
considerably be adapted. I'm not.
Ah, and the tricky piece is, and this is
what makes it a unique Degree in some ways is
that I think that it's critical to
(27:54):
get that theological base that the M. Um Div.
Provides. Because, I mean, you're helping people
to be formed in the sink theologically. Yeah.
>> Loren (28:02):
And that.
>> Doug Powe (28:03):
That is.
>> Loren (28:03):
I remember that from Phillips.
>> Doug Powe (28:05):
Yeah. I mean, that's just critically important. And I. And
um. It's frustrating when people say,
you know, well, they didn't teach me that in seminary. What
I want to say is. No, what we taught you is how to think
theologically so you could figure this stuff out.
>> Loren (28:19):
Good.
>> Doug Powe (28:20):
Right. You know, so. So I mean, so I would have say that.
But I do think. And this again
for me is where something like the center for Ministry and LA
Training comes in is how do we supplement that
nowadays to give individuals.
Mhm. Those other components of things that you
would need. Because you've got to be more
innovative, um, in the church today.
(28:42):
You've got to have these other skills in the church that are
critically important in terms of training. So
it's not an either or for me. It's
like that sort of
traditional M. Div. Is still
critically important. But then how do we
marry that with some of these
critical pieces of financial
(29:04):
stewardship, innovative thinking?
I mean, those things that would help, um,
you know, students who are going to go in ministry
to really succeed. So sort of a. Both and
approach for me of what we need to do.
>> Loren (29:17):
And certainly I think about like, for better
or worse, the. The economy
is very much of like you.
>> Doug Powe (29:26):
You.
>> Loren (29:26):
No one is like just getting a degree and then like working 30
years. Like they're like, uh. They recognize, like, I have to
keep certifying and doing this programming
and education. So I think it. I think that
makes sense.
I want to ask too, before we would. Before we finish
up, like you mentioned, decline several times
in this conversation, like this is something
(29:47):
you're familiar with in the United Methodist Church.
Certainly disciples are not immune. And you know, let's be
frank. This is a conversation that's not.
I don't think nearly any
branch or sector tradition within American
Christianity is immune from.
What do you think is the role, the
(30:08):
responsibility of institutions like
Phillips to help?
I mean, obviously you can't. You can't do. You can't.
You can't change the entire system. You got to trust the
spirit to bring revival and
renewal. But what do you think, uh, how Phillips can be a part of that?
>> Doug Powe (30:27):
I suppose I think a couple of things I
think it's important to remember,
um, congregations
play a critical role, um,
in calling traditionally.
Today, not only is the congregation that
plays a critical role. But people,
(30:48):
particularly young people, have
again alternative pathways in the
ministry. And one of those, um, is sort of, uh,
community engagement. Social justice would be another
one. Where our institutions like
us can play a role is those
individuals may not be as connected to the church.
(31:08):
So in the work we do in
sort of connecting with students who in
undergrad may have done something
within the uh, social justice
arena, who come to seminary and now
they're receiving the theological training, it
may, you know, open up a calling
to say, hey, I was thinking about nonprofit,
(31:31):
but now I can see where
I'm also interested, um, in the church to go along
with that. So I think the role we play is
we don't have as much influence sort of in the
congregational aspect. I mean there's some, but not as
much, um, because of course my hope is
Phillips faculty are wonderful at. They're out preaching and teaching
(31:52):
in congregations, which helps,
um, to people hearing,
saying, yeah, I do have that calling, but I do think we
can sort of expand sort
of um, those individuals who probably are thinking,
I want nothing to do with sort of this to say,
you know what? Now that I've sort of entered into it
through this particular pathway, I have
(32:14):
more interest maybe in what that may
mean ultimately for the type of work I wouldn't do. So
I think that's going to be, um, not only for
Phillips, but for theological education as a whole.
A growing place where you're going to see people
who, just because the landscape has
changed, come to theological education
(32:35):
not necessarily through the church, but through some of these
other um, uh, pathways like social justice.
>> Loren (32:41):
Well, that's helpful to think about because I think about like I grew up independent
Baptist.
>> Doug Powe (32:44):
Yes. Yeah.
>> Loren (32:45):
With not quite. There wasn't quite the.
The academia, uh, of. Yeah, you go to seminary. It
was like a Bible college.
>> Doug Powe (32:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (32:53):
And only the select nerds like really stayed on to go to
graduate school or seminary. But there was a kind
of transition out of high school, you
know, high school. And they feel called. You go to Bible college
or minister college.
That's why I was so I sort of wondered like, what is that
pathway for. For younger scenes.
(33:15):
And you're suggesting, if I'm hearing right, like it's really going to be
these non traditional folks.
>> Doug Powe (33:21):
Yeah, I think so. I think you're going to see,
um, just given the way
they're being trained, um, and sort of
community engagement efforts which
strongly connected often to sort of social justice than
in actual when they go to college or universities
doing social justice degrees or something. Related to
(33:44):
that, that that's a pathway. And many
of these students aren't in a church.
Yeah. Um, or loosely connected to a
church, but real interest in making
a difference in the world. Um, so
that's where I see institutions being able
to sort of have an impact of how do we connect with those
students? Um, at Philips, we offer a
(34:07):
Master of Art in Social Justice. Um,
so that taking that and saying
I can either go into nonprofit work or like I say, or it's
like, oh, I didn't realize. You know, I
thought about this really narrowly, but now my mind's been brought
and so I can see more opportunities,
um, to maybe do something more directly related
(34:27):
to ministry than I would initially have thought.
>> Loren (34:29):
I mean, I suppose it tracks with that whole
belong behavior.
>> Doug Powe (34:34):
Believe m. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Loren (34:39):
We're obviously in a time of great disruption, I suppose.
And, uh, what do you think? Let me
ask these two closing questions. What do you think history
will remember for this time? And then I suppose
after that I'll ask the other. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity? So let's start with what do you think history will
remember from this time?
>> Doug Powe (34:58):
It's an interesting question because, I mean,
there's, um, sort of, if you think about
the United States context and
sort of the shrinking, particularly,
uh, of, um, diversity,
um, equity and inclusion that has taken
place, um, depending on
(35:21):
how long this happens and where this heads, I
think history is going to look back and say
that it's unfortunate that
that's the pathway we went down of
trying to separate people and divide them instead of thinking of
ways that we could really
become a better nation together. Um,
(35:42):
so, um, I think within
this context that's something that definitely,
um, 25, 30 years from now,
as people look back and say, just depending on where this
heads, um, could be remembered. I hope that's not
the case. I hope I'm wrong in that
we're remembered for something different. Um, but that could be
(36:02):
the case. Uh, my hope for the future
relates to that, is that
we can actually
sort of help people see a different vision
of how we can be together. I mean, to me that is,
um, really at the heart
of who we should be as Christians. How do we help
(36:23):
people to live into. I, uh, use the language of the
kingdom where they can see that it
doesn't have to be this separation, that
it doesn't mean we have to be pitted against one another,
that there's actually a way for us to live
together. Um, and it doesn't mean we
won't disagree. And that things are going to be perfect. But,
(36:43):
um, it's not that because
I am succeeding, that means
you have to fail or that you're succeeding. That I have to fail.
>> Loren (36:52):
Some games.
>> Doug Powe (36:53):
That's right. Um, so my hope is
that there's a way to actually
create a vision to help people to
live into that in ways that we have not been able to do
to this point.
>> Loren (37:05):
Well, and this is something that I've always found so compelling
about the disciples tradition.
I think you would argue, if I understand Methodism enough, that
there's some similarities within the Methodist tradition. But
around the table, all are welcome
and all gather, despite our differences,
theology and politics and what have you.
(37:27):
We gather together in Christ's name.
>> Doug Powe (37:30):
Yeah, I mean disciples, um, similar to
Methodist. I'm going to use communion. Invite everyone to communion.
Like there's, you know, you
don't get to say, well, no, you don't get to come, or. That's
right. Right. So. So thinking about
that sort of image. Or we invite everyone to participate
in communion who, you know,
(37:50):
feels and really, um, wants to do so.
How do we create such a vision, um, in other
places where we all come together, uh,
and communion for the work we're doing.
>> Loren (38:00):
Well, I really appreciate your time, really appreciate the conversation,
really, uh, encourage folks, check out Philips and the work they're doing.
And, uh, I'm really excited about, uh,
the Future Phillips. And appreciate your service.
Seminary.
>> Doug Powe (38:14):
Thank you. I appreciate you having me.
>> Loren (38:16):
We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Doug Powe (38:19):
Also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (38:27):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
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(38:48):
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peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
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(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with
the Reverend F. Douglas Poe Jr.
Dr. Poe is President of Phillips
Theological Seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma
and an ordained elder in the United Methodist
Church. A noted scholar and author on
congregational vitality and evangelism,
(01:07):
he has written several books including the
Adept Church and Sustaining While
Disrupting. President Poe is a sought
after speaker on faith leadership and the future
of the church. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
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(01:29):
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us in making this podcast possible.
>> Loren (01:56):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm grateful
to be here recording live and in person with President
Doctor. Reverend Reverend Doctor what's your official title? Doug Powe.
>> Doug Powe (02:05):
It is. And actually,
um, it is
of course President, uh, Powe, but
I'm actually the Muzan Biggs professor,
uh, of Methodist Studies at Phillips.
So it's exciting to, um,
be able to take on such a wonderful title that was
(02:26):
filled by, of course, ah, Dr. Biggs and
um, Dr. Blue, uh, previously, uh,
but more importantly my role as part.
>> Loren (02:34):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to having that conversation. So we're
actually recording in person at
the General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of Christ,
which is exciting. So if you hear some chatter and buzz and
maybe an interruption, that's what it is.
Uh, but let's begin, I suppose, with that. This is
your first General assembly of the Christian Church Disciples of
(02:54):
Christ.
>> Doug Powe (02:56):
What do you think? It has been really,
really wonderful. I appreciate sort of
the, um, spirit throughout the
place and
worship has been creative and wonderful.
Um, kicked off by Dr. Uh, Bernice King.
>> Loren (03:13):
Wasn't that great?
>> Doug Powe (03:14):
Which was just, um, absolutely fantastic.
And the way she
connected it to her
father's, um, sort of
last course, uh, Speech and
Ultimate Assassination in Memphis,
uh, to leap to where we need to
(03:35):
go today and what we need to do now was, um,
really, really brilliant. So that was, um.
It was really sort of special to be a part, to hear
her, to make that sort of connection.
>> Loren (03:46):
Yeah. I was like, I have. I want, if nothing else,
to be there.
I mean, I'm younger than you. I'm a white
man. So I think for me it was sort of startling and it
perhaps a good reminder to think like.
Like, uh, she's not that old. Like, this isn't. This is within
her lifetime.
>> Doug Powe (04:06):
Yes.
>> Loren (04:07):
Um, and that was a. Helpful, I think, reminders to. To be
reminded of the
past is not that long ago. And. And of course, like she did, she tied
it back. Like there's some things happening in the
moment which are very troubling.
>> Doug Powe (04:20):
That's right. She, um. She made the connection
of sort of with all that
we thought we had accomplished. We find ourselves
sort of back at the many of the moments her
father faced. And she even talked about,
um, the story, which was a great story to
hear, uh, about when she, her
(04:41):
father was going to speak at the disciples
meeting. It wasn't, uh, the Christian church at that point, but
speak at the disciples meeting in Dallas, Texas.
And at that time, the pushback that was taking
place, but, uh, Disciples, you know,
were firm that we'll go to a different city if that's the
case. Uh, and that,
(05:01):
um, was. Was sort of a special story to
relate of. Um, it really was this sort of
the connection that the family had even to,
uh, disciple. So. Yeah, really a powerful way to begin.
>> Loren (05:13):
Absolutely.
Well, so we're,
we're here and I want to hear about, you
know, you've just come on to Phillips Seminary. I'm really excited.
Like, I was so excited. Obviously we've talked before on the podcast.
I'll try to link some previous episodes we've talked,
but I was really excited because, like, I've been familiar with your
work, followed your work with the Lewis
(05:34):
center and even your podcast there.
So I was thrilled when I saw this news that you were being hired.
So you've been at Philips, what, a couple, three months?
>> Doug Powe (05:44):
Six months, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I know. It's
amazing. Yeah. Six months.
>> Loren (05:48):
What, like, what do you think? Like, what are
your initial observations?
>> Doug Powe (05:53):
It really has been wonderful. Um, the
hospitality from, um, everyone has been
fantastic. The willingness to sort of,
uh, engage and entertain new
thoughts. Um, I couldn't have asked for
anything more. Phillips is really in a
wonderful and unique space where
(06:14):
we, um, are doing very well, doing very well
financially. Um, so Much so that
we're able to offer, ah,
100% scholarship help to
disciples and underrepresented
populations and 80% to pretty
much, um, everyone else. Um, and we do that
for of course, both Master, Divinity and Demon,
(06:36):
which is the unique piece.
Um, and I'm excited about that
because in today's world,
where, particularly in our area, and I'll talk about this a little
bit later, where many of the people are going to go into rural ministry,
um, they're not going to go into healing huge steeple
churches. To be able to help students to get through
(06:56):
seminary debt free, I think
is just tremendously huge. Um,
and it's a real gift. So I'm excited to be at
a place that can really offer that sort of financial
support to train students
well, but at the same time make sure that
they don't come out of seminary with this mountain of
(07:16):
debt that in some cases
happens, um, way too often for students who
are going to go into a similar place and not be able
to actually
maintain, uh, a good balance in their life.
Um, but, uh, the other piece that's
been exciting for me, frankly,
(07:36):
um, this has
been learning about Oklahoma
and Tulsa. I was familiar with it. I, um, was
at St. Paul School of Theology in uh,
Missouri for a while. So familiar with Oklahoma,
but really learning about the Tulsa area,
um, and just a commitment
(07:56):
there to sort of indigenous,
um, sort of, um,
studies and the individuals
and learning opportunities for
Phillips to even do more in that area.
Um, because it's such a critical piece of the history.
Um, um, and it's important, I think, uh,
for us to be part of making sure that
(08:20):
we, yeah, the stories are told and we offer
opportunities, uh, that take place,
um, to educate and
you know, make a difference also within the
indigenous community, respecting, of course.
>> Loren (08:33):
Right.
>> Doug Powe (08:35):
What is taking place already within those communities. So
it really has been. Been good and, um,
excited about the work that I'm going to get to do.
>> Loren (08:43):
And certainly Phillips has done a lot around trying, uh,
to honor the legacy and memory of the
Tulsa race riots and lifting up those stories
that were silenced in many ways.
>> Doug Powe (08:54):
Yeah. Um, it has been really
interesting. Um, I
grew up sort of knowing that history,
um, and didn't realize how unique
that was until I actually came
to Tulsa and heard from so
many people who grew up in Tulsa that they were
(09:14):
not familiar with the Tulsa
race sort of, uh, massacre
until much later in life and
recently that. That really. That history
just was hidden from them.
>> Loren (09:29):
Wow.
>> Doug Powe (09:29):
Um, so it is, um, in
some ways a gift that we're able to
do that lectureship, but also in some ways sad
that lectureship is necessary.
Um, my hope with it is that we're able
to not just do a historical
perspective of, uh, sort of this
(09:50):
is what happened, but it's more so to help us think
about the future and hopefully not to make the same
mistake again. And what are the signs and what are the things
we can do that we truly can
avoid these sort of things taking place
again, um, in our country? Because,
I mean, it's devastating. And the
(10:10):
impact. I mean, if you get an opportunity to come to
Tulsa, Ah. And as a community, of course, is
rebuilding, but, uh, the impact of what
it caused within the community is
devastating. Completely, uh, devastating.
>> Loren (10:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the. If I
read correctly, the mayor has been initiating some work
there too.
>> Doug Powe (10:31):
The mayor has definitely been initiating work. Tulsa,
uh, has an African mayor, American, um, mayor, and
might be the first. I'm not. Don't quote me on that to be
certain, but, um, really wants
to sort of honor the legacy
of those who suffered by
giving back and is
(10:52):
initiating sort of, uh, educational
opportunities, um, for those who are
connected. And those educational opportunities,
I think are important. There are some who have been
critical, saying it's not gone far enough. And.
And I always caution people to say,
you know, we always want people to
(11:13):
sort of somehow magically wave a
wand and make m. Everything we want
happen. And I'm like, that rarely is the case. And
I think what he's trying to do is say we've got to
start someplace.
>> Loren (11:25):
Sure.
>> Doug Powe (11:26):
And, you know, and he's trying to put in
place that place where we can start to, uh,
actually try to
repair some of, uh, what has taken place
for the people who have suffered the most.
>> Loren (11:40):
Well, I was really excited to see that when I read that.
Uh, so I think it's a great move
and great story.
I want to ask, when you think about Phillips and
certainly this episode, this conversation is going to
be very Disciples of Christ centric.
Uh, I hope to have bring in some insights
from your experience as a Methodist and Methodist
(12:01):
world. But I'm curious, when we think
about a conversation I have often on the podcast
is around theological education, certainly future of the
church. And I think theological education is very important to future
church. What are your
thoughts and I'm curious that are like any key priorities as you think
about the future that you're hoping to lead at Phillips?
>> Doug Powe (12:22):
A couple that, um, I've
talked about. One is
Phillips, um, right now is in the midst
of, um, sort
of building a new building called Bedford House. Right.
Um, and, uh, very exciting. And Bedford
House is going to. We talk about as a place of
(12:42):
belonging. And that word belonging is
intentional. Intentional, um, in that,
um. Phillips, of course, is a progressive seminary in the
midst of a, uh, place in Oklahoma
that is not nearly quite as progressive. Right.
So when you think of belonging for all of the people
who have been marginalized or underrepresented,
(13:02):
um, in a place where they can feel safe,
um, belonging is important. So,
um, LGBTQTI community, indigenous
community, African American community. I mean, you could just
go down a line. But a place where
individuals can come and
not only learn, but
call it home. A place where they can truly belong.
(13:26):
So really sort of, um, helping to
unpack that idea of belonging more, I think is
important. So building to building, obviously is important
and is critical. But I think the real
work, um, that I'm hoping where
I can, um, build off of what has already taken
place is really helping us to unpack that idea of
belonging and why it's important not
(13:48):
just for students, but for the church as a whole.
Um, and that space becomes a place of
belonging for, um, individuals to,
uh, come and feel like in the
midst of sometimes what can feel like,
um, spaces that
aren't safe, they can find that place
(14:09):
where they can have voice, be at the table
and truly belong. And the other I sort of
alluded to earlier, I think it's critically important that
we really help not only,
um, prepare students for rural ministry,
but also with those who are already doing rural
ministry, really help them to
(14:30):
feel that the work they're doing not only
is essential because it is, but give
them the resources to really do it. Well,
I think, um, because
within mainline, which disciples is there's
been this overall decline. Um, the goal
is how do we become sort of larger and how do
(14:51):
we create larger churches? The
reality is what we have to do, not
that we don't want larger churches. Yeah, I'm not
saying that. But we have to think about vitality,
particularly of our rural and
small congregation. The vitality doesn't
necessarily mean large. It means how do we make
(15:11):
sure that we're impacting the community and that we're
vital to the work that needs to be done. And I
think we can make a real difference. Um,
and that area, particularly given
our context, that very
rural and even the surrounding states around us, of
Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Southern
Colorado. Yeah, all very rural areas, that
(15:36):
work will be critically important.
>> Loren (15:38):
Well, I think it's so great. I think both those points you
highlighted, I mean, I've been
fascinated late with this how certainly you
probably studied this in your work at the belonging.
How that model has flipped of like Belong.
>> Doug Powe (15:52):
Uh, yeah, yeah. Believes. Yes.
>> Loren (15:54):
Believe, behave, Belong.
>> Doug Powe (15:56):
That's right. And belonging now is what is critical.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is
absolutely true.
Um, and it, it
goes um, and, and I'm forgetting her name.
Diane Butler Bass. Diane Butler Bass, yes. Is the one
who sort um of initiated that work. And, and
in the work she talks about, belonging
(16:19):
is sort of. Particularly for newer
generations, believing is not where they start,
it's belonging. And if they
belong they may work their
way to believing. Um, and I think that's
absolutely true. And the model we're sort
of building is that we really want to help people belong. And in
belonging, hopefully you will find your
(16:42):
space of moving into the believing
aspect.
>> Loren (16:45):
And I just got to give a shout out to the idea, the
Bedford House again which cracks with this
belonging because I remember when I was a student coming down
for module week long classes and I
was fortunate in most instances where I found something
to stay with but you know,
having that opportunity to rub shoulders with
fellow students, you know, there's just such
(17:08):
a important step I felt like
in my journey fulfilling
belonging and connectedness and all those
things. So I'm just so glad to see it.
>> Doug Powe (17:18):
Well, and it's an opportunity
also um, in
terms of learning, of bringing
diverse people together. I mean part
of belonging again as like I say it's easy
to sort of talk about it, but even within
underrepresented communities when you are in the
(17:39):
same space and then you start sort of
negotiating things that
those also could be challenging conversations. So it's not just
majority sort of versus
underrepresented, um, using versus
loosely but it's even in underrepresented
like how do we belong together
and how do we understand and
(18:02):
work towards common goals together. So,
so I think uh, for me it's exciting that there's going to be those
opportunities like you say, where students will
get an opportunity to sort of
um, learn um, and community
together of this is a lot more challenging
than I thought to actually create space,
(18:23):
you know, because some of the assumptions I may have had
now are actually getting tested in ways I didn't expect them
to get tested so good.
>> Loren (18:30):
You know, societally we are such.
We can be so filtered into our bubbles and into our
spaces. So any opportunity for that
third space or intimate mingling is so good.
I want to ask you about your work with Lewis center
and even if you want to extend it more broadly
from the United Methodist Church, I Mean
(18:51):
I don't know if you felt this way in the United Methodist Church, but I feel like
in Disciples world
denominations for a good reason can be very insular.
I'm curious like what do you think about uh, what are some
of your leanings from your time at Lewis center could be
applicable to Phillips or perhaps to the denomination, the
Disciples at large?
>> Doug Powe (19:11):
Yeah, I'll look at it from sort
of the Lewis Center. Um,
one of the things that attracted Peter Phillips
um, is the center for Administrative Lay Trading
cmlt um, and it's
not trying to make cmlt,
uh carbon copy of the Lewis center. But CMLT
(19:32):
is really unique um, I think within the
Disciples community for the work that it's doing
and its offerings of offering
um, an avenue for
those who don't get an mdiv,
um to still become pastors
with a non uh degree plan. And
I understand that. I think Lexington does it for
(19:55):
um, those who are now Latino, Hispanic community
um, and others. But um,
more broadly CMLT
is sort of unique in sort of the sort of non
degree class offerings. I think
there's a tremendous opportunity
learning from the Lewis center to sort of expand those
opportunities um,
(20:17):
and to build up on what has already taken
place. Because if you think about
more and more people in the future becoming bi vocational
that they're not going to probably have the
opportunity in some cases to do
degree offerings. So CMLT is
going to be the place where they're going to be able to connect to
(20:38):
theological education. Um, so my work at
the Lewis Center I think is going to be helpful as I work
with our director there, uh, Leslie
Lesure and thinking about what are the opportunities
that make sense. Yeah, um, certainly within a
disciple context where we can expand
um, and not only connect with disciples but more broadly with
(20:58):
others where it makes sense um, to
offer things that are going to be helpful to
those who may be interested in theological education but don't want
to do a degree program. Those who are bi vocational
that just can't
have the time to do the sort of even
sort of um, asynchronous route for
(21:20):
um degree theological education
and then lay training. I mean what are the
opportunities for lay who may be interested
in you know I want to do just this
one thing but seminaries
often don't offer this right sort of one thing or if
it's in class it's at a time when I
can't do it because I have to work. So CMLT
(21:42):
is going to be the perfect space to be able to make those sort
of one off offerings For a thing. So. So I. I
really think, um, at the Lewis center, it's going to
be helpful in working,
um, with Leslie and thinking about
what are those places that we can
really build out some of the offerings that
will be wonderful and making that a huge
(22:04):
success as we move forward.
>> Loren (22:06):
I'm really excited to hear that. And
as I learn more about ascending for
ministry. Late training. Because this was a conversation I
had recently in the past podcast guests.
We talked about how these stackable.
>> Doug Powe (22:20):
Yeah.
>> Loren (22:21):
Certificates or that kind of model of like, someone
might. I mean, gosh, you know, I remember
2009, when I started my seminar journey. Like, it
was such a. Such a
big thing to bite off. And I remember
that, like, that first semester.
>> Doug Powe (22:37):
Yeah.
>> Loren (22:37):
My wife was like, lauren, this is not. You
can't chew all this.
>> Doug Powe (22:41):
Right. Right.
>> Loren (22:42):
He did not have kids yet. And I remember that second
semester, I cut down my class load until
I could kind of find an equilibrium.
But I'm sure you know this better
than I do. Like, there's people who don't make it from that first year, that second
year because it is too much to chew off.
And then when you think about the complications of student loans and
(23:03):
financials, that's right. To me, it's just like, we have
so much more sense and it's such an easier
sell to a student and their families. Like, hey, we're
going to start with like a.
I don't know what, uh, works with the terms
three months, six months or something. I like bite
size. Chewable, to use save a
(23:24):
metaphor.
>> Doug Powe (23:24):
Yeah.
>> Loren (23:26):
I'm thrilled to hear it and I'm thrilled. Like, it just.
To me, it makes so much sense to think about, like, the. The
infrastructure that a place like Philips
has to serve lay leaders in
churches. I'm thrilled to see what comes of
it.
>> Doug Powe (23:40):
Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah. But I'm really excited about that
work.
>> Loren (23:44):
Yeah.
I want to ask, since we're kind of on this broad
topic of theological education. Uh,
um, I mean, actually kind of talked around
it already. Like, are there any other thoughts?
Again, past conversation I had on the podcast
was kind of like, it seemed like in some instances,
like, the value of it
(24:04):
m. Divorce or even theological education
writ large within some Christian context is kind of
declining. I mean, you're in the market
of theological education. Uh, what are your
thoughts on continuing to value
theological education within church or
Protestantism at large?
>> Doug Powe (24:23):
Yeah, I think,
um,
it's not the value. Is it declining?
The. The challenge is that
you have a perfect storm where
mainline denominations are declining.
>> Loren (24:39):
Yeah.
>> Doug Powe (24:40):
And the Reality of mainline denominations
declining is that
you have the need for less full
time pastors. Right.
Um, so it's not that they don't value
sort of, particularly in this case the Master
Divinity is that where
(25:01):
are you going to put them? Yeah, right. So, so that,
that's the, the sort of struggle,
um, and all
seminaries, particularly mainline are going to have to
deal with that, that challenge of
that likely they're going to be less
Master Divinity students because
literally the place
(25:23):
that supports us, there isn't a home
for those students.
Um, given the current
circumstance that there's been
decline each year. And again this is where
I think uh, the center for Administrative Lay training is so
valuable that what's going to have to happen is you're going to have to
have sort of different pathways to help
(25:45):
educate students. The Master of Divinity
is still going to be critically important. Um,
it's just not going to be the only way that
you educate students that you're going to have to
have available something similar
to what we have in the uh, center for Ministry and Lay
Training, um, moving forward. Because
(26:06):
people are still going to go into ministry,
um, and the Disciples,
Methodists, Presbyterian, whatever, are still going to have people
in ministry. It's just that they're going to have alternative
pathways for how individuals get there. And the question
is how do you educate those people?
And thinking about that now just so you're
(26:28):
prepared to have the alternative pathway to educate them I think
is going to be critically important. So
the difference I think is going to be
before pretty much
there was sort of one major pathway to get
there. Um, now you're going to have more than that one
major pathway to get there. Um,
(26:48):
just because even though people may
want the Master of Divinity
degree, um, the reality
is that it's going to be tougher and tougher to place
individuals with a Master of Divinity degree because there just aren't going to
be enough congregations that can support
sort of um, the full time package
(27:11):
needed to do so.
>> Loren (27:12):
I should ask about this even if there's kind
of getting the weeds a little bit. But it's something that I've been curious about.
Folks have had conversations certainly like
whether the M M Div itself should be reimagined as
more like a, like an MBA type degree.
Uh, do you have any thoughts around that, whether like the end Div
itself needs to be examined?
>> Doug Powe (27:32):
Um, I think that the M.
Div certainly
has to
um,
considerably be adapted. I'm not.
Ah, and the tricky piece is, and this is
what makes it a unique Degree in some ways is
that I think that it's critical to
(27:54):
get that theological base that the M. Um Div.
Provides. Because, I mean, you're helping people
to be formed in the sink theologically. Yeah.
>> Loren (28:02):
And that.
>> Doug Powe (28:03):
That is.
>> Loren (28:03):
I remember that from Phillips.
>> Doug Powe (28:05):
Yeah. I mean, that's just critically important. And I. And
um. It's frustrating when people say,
you know, well, they didn't teach me that in seminary. What
I want to say is. No, what we taught you is how to think
theologically so you could figure this stuff out.
>> Loren (28:19):
Good.
>> Doug Powe (28:20):
Right. You know, so. So I mean, so I would have say that.
But I do think. And this again
for me is where something like the center for Ministry and LA
Training comes in is how do we supplement that
nowadays to give individuals.
Mhm. Those other components of things that you
would need. Because you've got to be more
innovative, um, in the church today.
(28:42):
You've got to have these other skills in the church that are
critically important in terms of training. So
it's not an either or for me. It's
like that sort of
traditional M. Div. Is still
critically important. But then how do we
marry that with some of these
critical pieces of financial
(29:04):
stewardship, innovative thinking?
I mean, those things that would help, um,
you know, students who are going to go in ministry
to really succeed. So sort of a. Both and
approach for me of what we need to do.
>> Loren (29:17):
And certainly I think about like, for better
or worse, the. The economy
is very much of like you.
>> Doug Powe (29:26):
You.
>> Loren (29:26):
No one is like just getting a degree and then like working 30
years. Like they're like, uh. They recognize, like, I have to
keep certifying and doing this programming
and education. So I think it. I think that
makes sense.
I want to ask too, before we would. Before we finish
up, like you mentioned, decline several times
in this conversation, like this is something
(29:47):
you're familiar with in the United Methodist Church.
Certainly disciples are not immune. And you know, let's be
frank. This is a conversation that's not.
I don't think nearly any
branch or sector tradition within American
Christianity is immune from.
What do you think is the role, the
(30:08):
responsibility of institutions like
Phillips to help?
I mean, obviously you can't. You can't do. You can't.
You can't change the entire system. You got to trust the
spirit to bring revival and
renewal. But what do you think, uh, how Phillips can be a part of that?
>> Doug Powe (30:27):
I suppose I think a couple of things I
think it's important to remember,
um, congregations
play a critical role, um,
in calling traditionally.
Today, not only is the congregation that
plays a critical role. But people,
(30:48):
particularly young people, have
again alternative pathways in the
ministry. And one of those, um, is sort of, uh,
community engagement. Social justice would be another
one. Where our institutions like
us can play a role is those
individuals may not be as connected to the church.
(31:08):
So in the work we do in
sort of connecting with students who in
undergrad may have done something
within the uh, social justice
arena, who come to seminary and now
they're receiving the theological training, it
may, you know, open up a calling
to say, hey, I was thinking about nonprofit,
(31:31):
but now I can see where
I'm also interested, um, in the church to go along
with that. So I think the role we play is
we don't have as much influence sort of in the
congregational aspect. I mean there's some, but not as
much, um, because of course my hope is
Phillips faculty are wonderful at. They're out preaching and teaching
(31:52):
in congregations, which helps,
um, to people hearing,
saying, yeah, I do have that calling, but I do think we
can sort of expand sort
of um, those individuals who probably are thinking,
I want nothing to do with sort of this to say,
you know what? Now that I've sort of entered into it
through this particular pathway, I have
(32:14):
more interest maybe in what that may
mean ultimately for the type of work I wouldn't do. So
I think that's going to be, um, not only for
Phillips, but for theological education as a whole.
A growing place where you're going to see people
who, just because the landscape has
changed, come to theological education
(32:35):
not necessarily through the church, but through some of these
other um, uh, pathways like social justice.
>> Loren (32:41):
Well, that's helpful to think about because I think about like I grew up independent
Baptist.
>> Doug Powe (32:44):
Yes. Yeah.
>> Loren (32:45):
With not quite. There wasn't quite the.
The academia, uh, of. Yeah, you go to seminary. It
was like a Bible college.
>> Doug Powe (32:52):
Yeah.
>> Loren (32:53):
And only the select nerds like really stayed on to go to
graduate school or seminary. But there was a kind
of transition out of high school, you
know, high school. And they feel called. You go to Bible college
or minister college.
That's why I was so I sort of wondered like, what is that
pathway for. For younger scenes.
(33:15):
And you're suggesting, if I'm hearing right, like it's really going to be
these non traditional folks.
>> Doug Powe (33:21):
Yeah, I think so. I think you're going to see,
um, just given the way
they're being trained, um, and sort of
community engagement efforts which
strongly connected often to sort of social justice than
in actual when they go to college or universities
doing social justice degrees or something. Related to
(33:44):
that, that that's a pathway. And many
of these students aren't in a church.
Yeah. Um, or loosely connected to a
church, but real interest in making
a difference in the world. Um, so
that's where I see institutions being able
to sort of have an impact of how do we connect with those
students? Um, at Philips, we offer a
(34:07):
Master of Art in Social Justice. Um,
so that taking that and saying
I can either go into nonprofit work or like I say, or it's
like, oh, I didn't realize. You know, I
thought about this really narrowly, but now my mind's been brought
and so I can see more opportunities,
um, to maybe do something more directly related
(34:27):
to ministry than I would initially have thought.
>> Loren (34:29):
I mean, I suppose it tracks with that whole
belong behavior.
>> Doug Powe (34:34):
Believe m. Yeah, absolutely.
>> Loren (34:39):
We're obviously in a time of great disruption, I suppose.
And, uh, what do you think? Let me
ask these two closing questions. What do you think history
will remember for this time? And then I suppose
after that I'll ask the other. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity? So let's start with what do you think history will
remember from this time?
>> Doug Powe (34:58):
It's an interesting question because, I mean,
there's, um, sort of, if you think about
the United States context and
sort of the shrinking, particularly,
uh, of, um, diversity,
um, equity and inclusion that has taken
place, um, depending on
(35:21):
how long this happens and where this heads, I
think history is going to look back and say
that it's unfortunate that
that's the pathway we went down of
trying to separate people and divide them instead of thinking of
ways that we could really
become a better nation together. Um,
(35:42):
so, um, I think within
this context that's something that definitely,
um, 25, 30 years from now,
as people look back and say, just depending on where this
heads, um, could be remembered. I hope that's not
the case. I hope I'm wrong in that
we're remembered for something different. Um, but that could be
(36:02):
the case. Uh, my hope for the future
relates to that, is that
we can actually
sort of help people see a different vision
of how we can be together. I mean, to me that is,
um, really at the heart
of who we should be as Christians. How do we help
(36:23):
people to live into. I, uh, use the language of the
kingdom where they can see that it
doesn't have to be this separation, that
it doesn't mean we have to be pitted against one another,
that there's actually a way for us to live
together. Um, and it doesn't mean we
won't disagree. And that things are going to be perfect. But,
(36:43):
um, it's not that because
I am succeeding, that means
you have to fail or that you're succeeding. That I have to fail.
>> Loren (36:52):
Some games.
>> Doug Powe (36:53):
That's right. Um, so my hope is
that there's a way to actually
create a vision to help people to
live into that in ways that we have not been able to do
to this point.
>> Loren (37:05):
Well, and this is something that I've always found so compelling
about the disciples tradition.
I think you would argue, if I understand Methodism enough, that
there's some similarities within the Methodist tradition. But
around the table, all are welcome
and all gather, despite our differences,
theology and politics and what have you.
(37:27):
We gather together in Christ's name.
>> Doug Powe (37:30):
Yeah, I mean disciples, um, similar to
Methodist. I'm going to use communion. Invite everyone to communion.
Like there's, you know, you
don't get to say, well, no, you don't get to come, or. That's
right. Right. So. So thinking about
that sort of image. Or we invite everyone to participate
in communion who, you know,
(37:50):
feels and really, um, wants to do so.
How do we create such a vision, um, in other
places where we all come together, uh,
and communion for the work we're doing.
>> Loren (38:00):
Well, I really appreciate your time, really appreciate the conversation,
really, uh, encourage folks, check out Philips and the work they're doing.
And, uh, I'm really excited about, uh,
the Future Phillips. And appreciate your service.
Seminary.
>> Doug Powe (38:14):
Thank you. I appreciate you having me.
>> Loren (38:16):
We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Doug Powe (38:19):
Also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (38:27):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The
Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.
We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments
and ideas for future episodes. Visit
our website@future-christian.com
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(38:48):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the podcast to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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