Reimagining the Disciples: Faith, Theology, and the Future of a Movement

Episode Transcript
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>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're

(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today we
have another roundtable episode featuring
Christians Church Disciples of Christ pastors
Dennis Sanders, David Emery and me, Loren Richmond
Jr. With Martha Tatarnic serving as host and
moderator. Dennis Sanders is an ordained Disciples
of Christ minister and lead pastor of First

(01:05):
Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. A native
of Flint, Michigan and a big fan of the Detroit
Lions and Detroit Tigers, Dennis is also a
communications specialist for a Lutheran
congregation in the Twin Cities and is the host of
the Church in Maine podcast which tries to live
out Carl Barth's quote of, uh, reading the Bible
in the newspaper and interpreting the news through

(01:28):
the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with his
husband Daniel and their cats. David Emery is lead
Pastor of Harvard Avenue Christian Church in
Tulsa, Oklahoma. David is a passionate preacher,
compassionate pastor and adept leader whose
understanding of the Gospel and vision for the
church help the church fulfill their mission to

(01:50):
love.
And live like Jesus.
David has a reputation for growing churches,
reaching new people and transforming lives in
every church. He has served throughout his
ministry, which includes congregations in
Arkansas, Texas and Kentucky. He holds an M. Div
From Vanderbilt and if you were to ask David what
his favorite scripture passage is, he'd tell you

(02:10):
whatever he's preaching on that week. He's an avid
runner and multiple marathoner and when David
isn't on the trail or in the pulpit, he enjoys
spending time with his wife Teresa and their
children and grandchildren. A uh, reminder before
we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review

(02:31):
and share Future Christian with a friend. You can
connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
Instagram. You can send an email to me at
laurensonatemediapro.com and also find us on
substack@Future Christian Pod on substack. We
appreciate your voice and how we faithfully
discern the future of the church.

>> Martha Tatarnic (03:01):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your
host today, Martha Tatarnic, and today I get to
lead a roundtable with some Disciples of Christ
pastors. I'm Going to introduce them to you in a
moment. And we are looking at the question
specifically in the Disciples of Christ

(03:23):
denomination about creeds and sacraments and where
the Disciples of Christ find their rootedness in
today's world and, uh, whether the, the context in
which the Disciples of Christ started is still
working for them today. So, um, I'm really
interested in this conversation. As someone

(03:45):
outside of the Disciples of Christ denomination, I
hope that, uh, all of our listeners are going to
find this bit of deep dive into this part of
Christendom interesting and uh, valuable for all
of us, whatever denomination we're in. So today
I'm joined by David Emery, Dennis Sanders and

(04:08):
Loren Richmond Jr. And maybe we could just go
around, uh, the screen today and have you
introduce yourselves and specifically your context
where you're ministering right now to our
listeners. David, do you mind starting us off?

>> David Emery (04:25):
My name is David Emery and I'm the, uh, lead
pastor at Harvard Avenue Christian Church in
Tulsa, Oklahoma. Uh, in my sixth year, just
finished, uh, sabbatical this summer and heading
into the fall.

Okay, thanks, David. Dennis, where are you and
where do you minister?

>> Dennis (04:46):
I'm Dennis Sanders, um, I'm the pastor of First
Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. Um, and
then also host of the um, um Church um in Maine
podcast.

That's right. And we've had you a few times on
this podcast, which we appreciate. How about you,
Loren? Uh, I do think that our listeners know who
you are, but why don't you just refresh people's
memory in case we have anybody new joining us
today?

>> Loren (05:15):
Yes, thank you, Martha. Loren Richmond. I'm a
chaplain and.
Uh, regular host.
Of this Future Christian Podcast sessions. A
regular, like always host, but, uh, one of the
main hosts of the Future Christian podcast with
Martha Tatarnic here, struggling to talk. I work
as a chaplain currently and in another ministry

(05:36):
nonprofit context.

Okay, well, thank you all for being with us today.
Um, Loren, I'm going to put you on the spot here
because I understand that the disciples have long
claimed no creed but Christ. So can you just fill
us in? If we have non disciples listeners who are

(06:00):
with us, um, what is the context for that being
the claim and how does that get lived out?

>> Loren (06:09):
Okay, I'm going to bring my credentials here in
that I have in my hands the encyclopedia of the
Stone Campbell movement. I'm um, holding here,
although David and Dennis might take me to task or
others on my accuracy of the Stone Campbell
movement, but, but the Stone Camel movement really
comes out of, or excuse me, the Disciples of

(06:30):
Christ come out of The Stone Campbell movement,
which began roughly 200 years ago in America. The
disciples of Christ were at one point, as I
understand, like the largest indigenous meaning
stem from continental United States denomination
in the United States. Um, but I think, I think one
thing that I do want to say for our listeners, I

(06:50):
think this is a conversation that has broader
implications than just beyond David and Dennis's
eyes, particular denomination. I think within
American evangelicalism, I really see this kind of
grasping for some more rootedness. And I, uh,
think I'm hoping that this conversation that we
have can bring some more insights or context to

(07:13):
that even broader conversation.

Yeah. Okay, I think that that's really helpful.
Um, can you just maybe one of you could unpack
what that means to you? No creed but Christ. Um,
yeah. Dennis, do you want to take a stab at that?

>> Dennis (07:33):
Yeah, I think what meant at least to me and um,
historically was the disciple of Christ along the
wider restoration movement came out of, um,
Presbyterianism. Um, all of the founders came
from. Were Scotch Irish, um, came out of, um,

(07:55):
Presbyterianism, which was incredibly, at that
time, around the 1700s, incredibly sectarian. And
so they all kind of took parts of the, uh, you
know, how they all kind of parsed the Westminster
Confession. And if you believed it this way, then
you were this certain Presbyterian. If you

(08:17):
believed it this way, you were this certain
Presbyterian. And if you believed it this way,
then you could take communion. If you believe it
that way, then you couldn't take communion. So it
was just really a kind of a mess. And um, and so
you had this movement and a lot of this kind of
arose especially in Northern Ireland and kind of

(08:39):
got moved over to America. And um, as the
Restoration movement kind of came to fore, they
kind of saw, at least the founders thought that
the creeds in many ways were blocking people from
coming together to worship. And so they saw creeds

(09:03):
in that way as a problem, um, of bringing people
together. So for them, what was important was that
the only creed that brought people together was
Christ. And so it wasn't that they didn't. They
were anti creed, but that they were non creedal,

(09:26):
that there wasn't a creed. You didn't have to have
a certain creed to come forward, to take part in
communion or whatever, or to worship together, but
that it was that you basically believed in Christ.
That was the creed. That was the only creed that

(09:48):
mattered.

Yeah. Okay, so I want to get into the heart of
the. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

I was just going to say that no creed but Christ
is kind of reflected in the way that many
Disciples churches operate today, uh, in their
congregations, uh, in the sense that there's this
idea and this belief is very fundamental or false.
Most Disciples churches, this idea is a belief in
diversity of opinions, find an interpretation of

(10:16):
Scripture. And so by the removing this, uh, idea
of no creed but Christ allows for, uh, a body that
we really cherish at Harvard Avenue, which is
theological humility, uh, very, very important to
us to be an ecumenical church. And so the beauty
of this early foundation of this church was like

(10:37):
it wasn't so much anti creed, however, it was
taking down the barriers so that the communion
table became a place of unity rather than a place
of division. So that's why communion really sits
at the heart of, uh, art of a worship service.
That's why it's not required for an ordained
clergy person to oversee the table. Table is meant
to be a place.

>> Dennis Sanders (10:58):
Where barriers have been removed, uh, and have
been taken down.

Uh, however, I would add that part of the reason
we're having this conversation today is even
Alexander Campbell, one of the founders of the
church itself, began to immediately, toward the
end of his own life, recognized the difficulty of
no creed but Christ. Because instead of creating a
church, a unified church, it just caused more
division within the church itself. Because this

(11:23):
movement, which Christian church movement, said
that we want to be, uh, a church that's
ecumenical, that focuses on the unity of all
Christians. But at the same time, how do you go
about doing that? By returning to Christ as the
center of our faith. And we're going to rely upon
the New Testament for the governance of the
church. As a result, you have people who can't
agree on the governance, who can't agree on what

(11:45):
the New Testament says. So instead of leading to a
unity, it just created three more distinct
denominations or three more distinct bodies. The
Church of Christ, the Independent Christian
Church, and the, uh, Disciples of Christ. And so
that itself, it was a very naive thing.

(12:05):
And so part of this conversation comes up because
Loren and Dennis and I have been talking and I
said, said to them recently that it feels like to
me that we're living in an age and a time where we
don't have a common set of language about sin,
salvation, human suffering that allows us to
navigate the times that we're living in. And that

(12:27):
there are some beautiful parts of our faith and
our tradition historically across all
denominations that speak very meaningfully to
those things. And can we hold onto that humility
at the same time, lean into some of the, uh,
decrees from our church?

Okay, well, you've all given, ah, yeah, you've all
given me a lot of context for this conversation.
And I love that word humility. I think that that's
a really important word. I'm just gonna speak for
a moment from my Anglican perspective because we
do most Sundays in most of our churches, say

(13:07):
either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed. And
I would say that at various points in my ministry,
I have found that a little strange because, you
know, it seems to assume a lot that our churches
are full of people who can all get up and say, we

(13:29):
believe X, Y and Z, when we know that our churches
are full of people who are at various points on
their Christian journey. And, um, just, like, do
hold a range of beliefs and a range of
relationships to those core statements. Um, but

(13:50):
then at other times, I have found it very powerful
as, like, sort of the faith that holds us
together, regardless of where any of us
individually are on the journey. That, you know,
there is this collective that we can sort of be
held by. Even if I, in that moment or in that

(14:12):
season, am struggling with a particular part of,
um, the belief system, I can still feel held by
that shared story. Um, so, yeah, I'm really
interested to hear your reflections. Um, David's
kind of given us the sense that maybe it hasn't

(14:37):
always led to unity, uh, and that maybe there is
this floundering for lack of some shared language,
as David said, around, um, those key experiences
of the human journey. So, yeah. Dennis, do you

(14:57):
feel like the no creed but Christ serves the
denomination well for today?

>> Dennis (15:08):
No.

Okay.

>> Dennis (15:09):
I think that it. I think it. It still has some
meaning, but it's also. I think in our day and
age, it also has some, um. It falls short. Um,
when I became a disciple, this was back about 30

(15:29):
years ago, we still had a lot of theologians. We
had pastors. We had all these books that kind of
explained and could kind of tell you what that
whole phrase meant and could really explain to you
the whole concept of what it meant to be a
disciple. And we don't really have that as much

(15:54):
today. And we don't have people there to explain.
What does this phrase mean? Um, what does Christ
mean? M. What does a creed mean? What does it mean
to believe? Um, you know, we just don't have this

(16:16):
way of how to explain this anymore. And so that, I
think, is kind of an issue. And it's not as much
that the phrase is a problem. It's that it feels
like we don't have people around that can explain
what this means as much anymore. That's a problem.

(16:38):
Um, and maybe that's also a problem, that it
really does fall to us, um, as pastors, um, to do
that now. It's just that there were a generation
of people, other theologians that had written
books that had all this, and those people have
passed on, and we just don't have that that much

(17:00):
anymore.

Well, I mean, even no creed but Christ. Like,
yeah, as you say, uh, what does Christ mean? Like,
Christ for what? Like to follow as the Son of God,
as the, the one who shows us what God is like. As,
like, what are we sort of signing on to, to say,

(17:25):
even just Christ. So, um, yeah.
Loren, how do you feel like the shifting times
have brought this into question?

>> Loren (17:39):
Well, I think it, I just wrote.
Down a note like, on thinking about what Dennis
was saying. Like, I think it assumes a set of
assumptions that aren't necessarily widely held. I
think this is the challenge that we're having, at
least in America, you know, broadly speaking, in
our culture, that there's like this set of
assumptions that we just assume everybody has that

(17:59):
people don't have anymore. Um, like this
assumptions on what, what democracy is and what
freedom is and what, you know, and so on and so
forth. And there's, there's this shared set of
assumptions, perhaps rooted in a Christendom that
just don't exist anymore.

Yeah, I, do you feel like, do you feel like it is
harder for people to feel like they have a common
faith? And do any of you have an experience of how
that stands in contrast maybe to other

(18:40):
denominations? Because, again, like, I see a lot
of diversity across my congregation in belief,
despite the fact that we have creeds. Um, do you
think in comparison, that Disciples of Christ find
it harder to say? Okay, well, we do have a, a

(19:03):
shared faith story.

I, I think that David, maybe you.

Want to take a.

Here's the one wondering. I have. Okay.

Martha.

Um, what I wonder is if anybody really in our
denomination really uses that phrase mentioned
more. I don't know. In recent gatherings, I've
been with disciples. I don't hear us even using
that language. It's kind of like we don't use it
at all. We, we do talk about unity, uh, around an
open table. We're very big on inclusion and

(19:37):
welcome. And so, um, that, that seems to be very
important to us, but I don't hear much m. Of that
language around that, around that anymore. Um, the
kind of, the reason this has really become
important to me is, um, I, I, I was driving,

(19:59):
driving recently, and an Anglican church here in
town had a sign up that said God loves you and
that means everyone. And everyone is welcome. I
thought to myself, gosh, that's really beautiful.
I believe that's true. It's a part of my faith.
It's part of, part of who we are as disciples.
That we are a church of inclusion and a church of
welcome. But that, but as I was thinking about it,

(20:21):
that very next day two children were shot and
murdered in a church in Minneapolis, um, in
another mass shooting. And I thought to myself, I
said it's just not enough to be a church that
primarily focuses its identity of identity on
being a church of welcome. And inclusion for all
people isn't enough because it doesn't adequately

(20:42):
address the sin and brokenness and the evil at
work in our world that takes innocent human lives.
And so one of the things that deeply concerns me
about the disciples is that uh, we tend to either
take this very strong social activist role or then
we tend to take a role of uh, being a church for
everyone, but a church that doesn't really stand

(21:04):
for anything at all. And so like m. I'm thinking
about the 25 year old young man who was trying to
find his way in the world. Uh, you know, a young
white 25 year old man is probably the most
dangerous person in America. Probably my opinion.
Um, what do we have to say to a young man who

(21:25):
feels isolated, alone, disconnect from the world,
worried about the future, uh, trapped in uh, a
world that feels unsafe and fearful to him.

Why don't we really have to offer.

That person in a primarily activist congregation
or in a congregation that says everybody's welcome
but isn't able to adequately address the root
issues of his alienation. And so just saying
everybody's welcome is not enough. And by the way,
I'll just point out there is a revival of young
people attending church, but they're not going to
progressive congregations. It's not that I'm not,

(22:00):
it's not that I, I have, I lean progressively
theologically, um, where a church is welcoming in
every way.

But I don't know what our.

I don't.

Here's the problem.

This is the reason why I'm concerned about this
matter. What does my church have to say? What do
our disciples churches have to say theologically
about what does it mean for a person to be a saved
person, to experience the good news of Jesus and
their salvation when they're walking to the door
of our church broken by addiction and family
dysfunction? And our message is primarily about

(22:33):
race or gender or human sexuality. It doesn't
address anything about their own their own social
matters. And we don't have a shared language
around how is a person saved. What does it mean to
talk about the crucifixion, the resurrection of
Jesus Christ? The table itself becomes a table of
welcome without emphasis upon the crucifixion,

(22:58):
life, death of Jesus, which does, you know, at the
center of our faith does deal with the problem of
human evil. We have a savior who was crucified
state sponsored and by religious people. So that's
the, the kind of the. I'm, I am, um, really I've
been really grat. This is a very mark, this is a
very unformed thing in me.

I spent all summer thinking about this.

Um, but how do we, how do we gather around? I'm
not suggesting that we have a creed in our church,
but how do we then gather some common language
that's not just creating the disciples in another
democratic progressive religion, uh, that isolates
herself, that ignores half the world?

Yeah, so I'm, yeah, I think I'd.

Like to hear from you.

Yeah, I'm seeing Dennis and Loren really nodding
their heads a lot here.
So. Yeah, Dennis, I was going to say.

>> Dennis (23:49):
That, um, because this kind of leads into
something about our identity as disciples. And I
think right now it's really being tested. I think
we're more formed and framed by ideology than
theology. Um, I think we are more identified, uh,

(24:15):
by progressive politics than we are by any type of
a theology. And I feel like, I, I feel like a lot
of times that's something that I am challenged by
just in congregations, but also in the larger

(24:36):
church. Um, and I do wonder what does that have to
say to someone who doesn't fit that mold? What if
someone walks into the church that is not
interested or maybe doesn't have, you know, fit
into the mold of issues on race or gender or

(24:59):
sexuality. Um, but is, you know, a white, 25 year
old white male, um, they need to hear that message
of salvation just as much. And probably if you
look at the news these days, probably even more
so. And do we have something to tell them,
something to say to them? And right now I don't

(25:20):
think we do it, but yet we kind of go on with this
message that we're being inclusive and that we
love everyone, but frankly we don't. And I think
to be honest, if we are really honest, we have
really replaced our theology with an ideology. And

(25:43):
just one example, I think.

I.

>> Dennis (25:47):
Used to, years ago, maybe 10, 15 years ago, would
sometimes read things about, um, there used to be
this thing called the stone Campbell dialogues,
um, where people from the three different streams
of the Stone Campbell movement would come and they
would actually talk about various things and
topics in the movement, um, on communion and on,

(26:12):
um, the role of the Trinity, all of these
theological concepts. And we don't really talk
about that. And so. And as you look around, we
just don't even really talk about what it means to
be a Christian anymore. What does this mean
anymore? And so I don't know. Sometimes what we

(26:35):
have to offer, it feels like what we have to offer
is how to be a good progressive, but not
necessarily what it means to be a good. To be a
Christian, to be a follower of Jesus, to be. To
offer, to offer grace, where people feel that they
are being beaten up by the world and feel that

(26:57):
they don't measure up. I just don't feel that we
have that to offer.

Yeah. So, I mean, I do want to say that a lot of
what you're identifying here also gets discussed
in our, uh, Anglican Church churches, despite the
fact that we do have a creed and we're
sacramental. And there are lots of ways in which
the common faith story does get expressed in our

(27:24):
liturgy and in our shared language and our common
prayer. And yet all of the things that you're
saying are things that we discuss in our church as
well. Um, because, yeah, you can get very caught
up in the causes, uh, and sort of lose the

(27:45):
distinguishing identity of being a disciple of
Christ. And I'm using that not as a denomination,
but like just what we're all supposed to be signed
up for here. Um, so I'm hearing a few issues that
you're naming, all of you, uh, about what has

(28:07):
shifted that maybe requires some, um,
reevaluation. So I, uh, hear a lot about that
sense of younger people, and particularly the
younger male, um, definitely finding something as

(28:28):
a group in denominations other than the mainline.
Um, and I hear also that, uh, that loss of just
kind of the basic Christian fabric of society that
I think we could assume to a much larger degree in
both Canada and the U.S. a couple of generations

(28:51):
ago. Um, that does make formation a lot trickier
and you have to be a lot more intentional because
it doesn't just happen by osmosis. Um, so I do
wanna.
I wanna circle back to some of what you think
could address what you're identifying here. But

(29:12):
let's just delve a little bit more into another
aspect specifically of your denomination that I've
been hearing you name, which is, um, those
sacramental pieces. So, uh, the. The table and the
font. What uh, does that look like in your

(29:34):
denomination? That is sort of different from what
I would expect as an Anglican. And is that also
what you're feeling is part of the problem? Loren,
maybe you could, uh, unpack that a little bit for
us.

Yeah.

>> Loren (29:51):
David and Dennis can certainly add some more
context here, but I'll get us started just by
saying, like, certainly in Disciples of Christ
tradition, like, there are no sacraments. We call
them ordinances. And this is kind of what made it
an easy transition for me when I was growing up
Baptist to find my way into the Disciples world
was, you know, it was a. It's very similar kind of

(30:11):
understanding of baptism and the Lord's Supper as,
as a remembrance. There's nothing. It was
remembrance and obedience. My, um, thought is, and
I'm curious for David and dynasty perspectives
here is that is my thought is it really puts like
baptism as remembrance and baptism as, um, or
communion as remembrance puts all the effort and

(30:34):
work on me, which I think is kind of like the big
fundamental problem. I see. And I think others,
uh, would agree that like, the work of faith has
become solely dependent on my efforts alone.
Whereas having a sacramental understanding of
Baptism or Eucharist, it's God's grace coming upon

(30:55):
me.

Yeah. Outward sign of an inner, inward grace.

Yeah. Mhm.

David, do you want to jump in here?

I do think that I agree with Loren. Um, I do think
that in my time as a pastor, I've seen, uh, the
church elevate the understanding of communion to
something greater than remembrance, approaching
more of what I would call it a sacrament. Um, and

(31:31):
I do think that the way that we celebrate and
share communion.

On a Sunday is something that's been.

In the track with Future 12 Church. You know, to
have an open table in a world where a lot of
tables are not open, where people can come
together. It's a powerful symbol and a powerful
metaphor, a powerful sacrament to call people
together around a table where Christ is the head
of the table and where Christ offers us food and

(31:59):
life and community together. I think it is one of
the richest, most meaningful parts of our
tradition. And that part that is rooted in the
early restoration movement. That is really the
beautiful part, really the beautiful part, uh, of
the movement where I think it gets weakened is,
um, I remember years ago we had a retired Old

(32:22):
Disciples minister, retired minister approached me
after worship on Sunday and said, you know, uh,
every Sunday you talk about the communion table
being the table of Ecclesia. When are you going to
talk about Christ? And I, I appreciated what he
said because he meant that there's more to the
table than conclusion, conclusion that this

(32:45):
expounded itself in the gospel of who Christ is
and what Christ has done for us in the cross, his
life, sacrifice, the offering of his blood body
for us and for the world. And where I fear that we
lose something in that tradition is where it
becomes just a table of inclusion, uh, about how
we gather people around us but does not really

(33:07):
take into account the brokenness of the world and
that Christ was broken with us and for us and
calling. I think there's an opportunity there to
really enrich that sacrament to mean something
very, very significant for the church. It's a
place that we can lean in. Uh, I don't know that

(33:28):
we need to adopt a creed, um, but I.

Do think that that's a place where.

We have something really to offer and something
that we can lean into, but something I think we
get right all out.

Yeah, I like that, I like that both and like that
you appreciate the offering and the beauty. Um,
but also like, yeah, the leaning in. Is there an
opportunity to lean in? Ah, you know, it's great
to be included, but included in what? Is sort of

(34:03):
the follow up question.

Right.

So yeah, Dennis, you're nodding here. How do you
experience the uh, lack of sacramentality in the
disciples?

>> Dennis (34:15):
Well, I think for me it's been helpful because I
went to a, ah, Lutheran seminary and of course
living and pastoring as I do in Minnesota, I kind
of have a hybrid version of looking at the table
of seeing it as a use and means of grace, um, and

(34:40):
kind of seeing Christ's presence at the table. Um.
So yeah, I mean I do see it that there is a sense
of inclusion but remembering that Christ is
present at the table, um, reminding my, and
remembering Christ's sacrifice, um, Christ's love

(35:02):
for us at the table, um, and I think trying to
hopefully communicate that, um, and hopefully
trying to, I think better, trying to better teach
that too, um, to people, um, to people about the
importance of that.

So are there some, like. I guess I have two follow
up questions here. I'm wondering, in your own
context of ministry, have you seen strategies that
have worked in terms of giving people that leaning
in experience, that opportunity to connect, um,

(35:44):
what you offer as a denomination to the most
urgent, um, questions on people's hearts today.
Have you experienced strategies that help with
that? That would be my first question and then,
um, my follow up question would be, do you feel
like there are some things that do need to change

(36:05):
as a denomination, like as a collective to better
Respond to the moment that we're in. So let's
maybe start with the more grassroots level. Like,
what have you seen that helps speak, um, to the
most urgent questions. Who wants to jump in here?

>> Loren (36:32):
I can start.

Just.

>> Loren (36:33):
So I guess we'll keep the same order. I suppose
something I tried to do when I was leading a new
disabled church was just talk about. So I did like
a sermon series on can't remember the woman's
name. But I lifted up Alexander Campbell and his
kind of passion to make community accessible and

(36:53):
inclusive. I lifted up Willowing Barber as
someone, you know, a person of faith whose
activism was really much rooted in faith. And
then, um, can't remember her name, but she was a
Disciples missionary. And I think if she was in
China during the, um, World War II crisis and
really was like, protective of women Disciple or

(37:14):
Chinese, uh, women there, then I'm sure David
might speak to who I'm speaking of. But, yeah, I
think talking about how our story, um, has
relevance for today.
I think is important.
I think that really, I think broadly speaking,
lifting up important voices who have done the

(37:34):
right thing is not mentioned enough. Just quickly,
at church this Sunday at the UMC church, the
United Methodist Church, they were talking about
the Sand Creek massacre, which was a real tragic
scenario in the Colorado 100, 150 years ago, where
the US military just ambushed some innocent

(37:56):
indigenous people who were there.
And they.
Just something I'd never heard before, shared
about, uh, an army officer, I can't remember his
name, but who had. Who had said, like, uh,
initially this was, uh, they. They sold that the
US army did as like this big military success. And
some, um, military officer came back and said,
like, hey, we just. What really happened is we

(38:17):
ambushed a bunch of innocent people. Uh, the man
actually was. Was killed, lost his life. But I
think lifting up the stories of people who did the
right thing and how they have application today, I
think in my mind, is one important way we could do
that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think the more that you take it from
abstract into actual lived experience, the better.
David, how about you? Um, what works?

Well, so, yeah, I've been thinking about this. Um,
you know, so I've been here seven years, and we
have been really working about how it is that
inform people in faith, root them in the
community. And, um, we spent a lot of time just
really getting clarity about who we are and what
we want to be in the community, what God's calling

(39:06):
us to do in this community. And so we have a class
now. We offered. We spent a lot of time working on
it already. For more we offer it ah, about three
times a year. And Ready for More is where we take
a group of newcomers to the church and talk with
him about what does it mean to be a part of this
church family? Uh, what are spiritual practices

(39:26):
that help you grow in form and faith? How do you
find your own place within the place of the
community? What does communion mean to you?
Talking about disciples history, it's three
sessions. And so what we had before, people would
come to kind of a newcomer welcoming thing and
then they would then get asked to go to some sort

(39:46):
of small group or class to get connected. What we
try to do is put this thing in the middle and we
very ah, very intentional and we created a
curriculum, um, wrote a, uh, produced a, uh,
three, three 15 minute films that go along with it
where various people in our church are
interviewed. And part of is we actually have a

(40:06):
baptism. I uh, baptized actually the filmmaker,
uh, became a member of our church and I baptized
him for the first time first in a creep or
actually a pond in a neighborhood as a part of
the. The process is beautiful thing. Um, and so we
do this thing called Ready for More where we pull
people in. But I think there are three things.

(40:28):
It's bigger than a creed I think if we want to
impact the culture. One is this is what I said. We
got to root ourselves as a church in Christ. And
that means the reading of scripture and wrestling
with scripture and allowing diversity and
humility, interpretation and teaching spiritual
practices. The second is helping people understand

(40:51):
that faith is formed in the midst of community,
form in spiritual formation, happens in community.
And then third is enabling our congregation to
witness through compassion and mercy to our will,
which is through speaking about our faith, but
also through concrete action, community on behalf
of others in the least elite. And so I think that,

(41:13):
that it's. It's this process of um, bringing
people in, immersing them in community, teaching
them and giving them the tools and the skills to
read and practice spiritual. So they root
themselves in the life of Christ. It's not
necessarily having a complete defined answer for
everything as much it is, is doing this together
as a community, uh, you know, a community itself,

(41:38):
um, together and somehow we're forming people in
faith. So then we're asking somebody to join the
church. We're not just asking them or to be a part
of the church. We're asking to be a part of
something that's bringing life to our community.
So to be honest with you, I love the disciples.
I've been, I'VE uh, been in it my whole life. I
was baptized on the creator row for a small church

(41:59):
in the Fort Worth area. But I'm really, I, I want
the Disciples to succeed and be successful in the
future because I do believe in.

What we have to offer.

Significant. But I'm not concerned about it. I'm
more concerned, less concerned about saving the
Disciples from loss of growth than I am concerned
about impacting our community in our world and
sharing in the work Christ is doing in the world.
Because I think if you do that, the other takes
care of itself. Uh, when you focus on the
denomination, everything dies. Focus on people,

(42:27):
the mission, the church grows and thrives. That's
the way back. It's our mission, not our survival.
A lot of churches are in a survival mode and that
just leads to more death.

Yeah, well, and what you're saying certainly
transcends denomination because I would say the
same thing for the Anglican Church. Um, I think
what I like about your answer is that, um, you're
not. I think you're being very clear about the
offering that the Disciples has, um, for the well

(43:06):
being of the world and at the same time, um, being
grounded in um, where that offering comes from and
how that's communicated in a more fulsome way. So
I think it's that both.
And how about you, Dennis? What do you see
working?

>> Dennis (43:27):
I think it's been for me, good, um, effective
preaching. Um, it's been for me, um, effective
preaching of the gospel, preaching of grace. Um,
realizing that people are, I think in the, in the

(43:49):
age that we live in, people are being formed by a
lot of different things on social media, on cable
news, all of that stuff to tell, to get other
messages and um, that you kind of need to preach
about the fact of, of the love of God, of the
grace of God. And so you try to preach that every

(44:15):
Sunday, um, a little bit less and a lot less of
kind of the quote unquote, let us sermons or
honeydew sermons, um, and really just focus on the
fact that God loves people and that they are, um,

(44:36):
even as they mess up and fall short, that they're
forgiven. And I think that that message needs to
be heard because I think it's not a message that
we hear a lot these days. Um, what we hear are
that we're either they are bad people or we're bad

(45:00):
people, whatever. And so I think what needs to
happen is to have some um, good effective
preaching. I think that there is some good and
strong faith formation that does need to happen.
Um, but um, for me, at least for, um, a small

(45:22):
congregation, uh, you have to have some good
preaching. And, um, that has been what's been
working for me.

Yeah, that is the place of greatest impact. I
firmly believe, um, that we have each and every
week. And yeah, I've heard it said, like, make
sure you're preaching the good news, not good
advice. Like, yeah, you can get good advice
anywhere, but make sure that you're proclaiming
the gospel. Like, it's not just all, as Loren said

(45:51):
on you to get this right and figure it out and
work hard and do good. It's like this is about
the. The mercy and goodness and love of God. So
how about that, like, structural element? Do any
of you feel that something needs to change more

(46:12):
fundamentally across your denomination to better
respond to this moment? David, how about you jump
in? You nodded right away.

Yeah, I do. I. I do. I want to say, uh, first of
all, I want to thank you, Martha and Loren and
Dennis church, um, on Main. And then Future
Christian has been very helpful. I think you guys
are. Y' all are bringing some stuff that needs.

You bring.

You're bringing diversity to voices. It's been
very helpful. And, and you two are Dennison,
Laura, able to offer something that I'm just. I'm
not gifted at offering. Their writing skills are
just on substack. Have been very helpful. In fact,
I just copied down something Loren wrote and put
it in my file to. To share at some point with some
other folks actually quoting Dennis's Church on

(47:05):
Main podcast. So I really appreciate. I really
appreciate both of those. Uh, and they're having
that conversation. I think that, that the. The
overall general denomination cell. I'm not so sure
that they. And, and I, I support the work they're
doing to bring renewal and life to the church. And

(47:28):
I'm, um, fond of the. You know, our leaders are.
We have a wonderful regional ministry here in
Oklahoma, and we've got good people serving and
giving their best to the church. I think the
answer is, lies in. In local congregations that
the life and vitality of the church is going to
happen through a congregational renewal. It's

(47:49):
going to require. It requires some of our larger
church pastors buying in and being supportive of
partnering with other churches that need help and
help and direction and helping with the calling of
leaders. We have a serious crisis of leadership.
Uh, people step out of position. So we don't have.

(48:09):
I'm sure it's true in the Anglican Church too. We
don't have the leaders and the people that we need
to be Able to grow. You want to change the church,
change the leader. It all starts with leadership
at a local level. And so my hope would be that we
could get some of the pastors who have vital
resources, large amounts of resources, and the

(48:29):
ability to attract good staff to be able to
partner with other churches to help them renew and
revitalize themselves. I think that's the key to
answer that. First of all, we've got to convince
our larger church pastors and our pastors that it
can be done if there's hope there. Because I think
that there's a sense of people pulling away and
losing hope in the denomination itself and losing

(48:50):
hope in us as disciples to be able to lean back in
and offer ourselves collegially, to work with one
another, to work with the region, to be able to
help grow churches. And, uh, pulling together,
pulling together.

Like Harvard.

One of the things we're trying to do is we are
part of the church in Broken Arrow and we've
committed, uh, a large amount of financial
resources to help them find their new pastor and
to partner with the church and new pastor for the
revitalization. So we're hoping that this will be
the thing that we could do and that maybe others
will want to do it in some fashion. So I do think

(49:27):
it's down to the local level. It's about
developing leaders. It's about our seminaries
helping develop leaders that love the church, that
don't want to just be nonprofit leaders, but who
love the church and want to grow the church and
develop the church. I think it's a local level
issue.

Yeah, I could not agree with you more. And you
know, I think it's certainly in our denomination.
I would say that it's not just that we need large,
uh, church pastors to buy into these conversations
and support. I think just across our different
ministry contexts, we need to be people really

(50:05):
committed to learning from one another. Like, I
lead a large, traditional downtown church, but,
like, I should be in intentional conversation with
the person who's out there doing street ministry
and the person who's starting a new church plant
and the person who's in, um, a rural, small church

(50:28):
setting because, like, each one of us have things
that we can learn from one another about what
we're seeing and experiencing and what works and
what doesn't. And I mean, we're all kind of
throwing some noodles at the wall to see what
sticks. But, like, wouldn't it be so much better
if, like, we're telling each other about what

(50:51):
noodles we're throwing at the wall and what
doesn't. Doesn't stick and can be a lot more open
about the things that don't work and the things
that do. And, you know, to have a lot of curiosity
with one another about what is happening. I just
could not agree more that, um, it is the local
level where people's lives are transformed. And so

(51:15):
we need to be just throwing resources and energy
and intentionality into what is happening there.
Um, sorry, I just got really excited there for a
moment.
Jump in, Loren.

>> Loren (51:29):
Yeah. If I can just jump in there and say one
structural thing that I think to backpack and
piggyback off what David's saying. We need to be a
more local, networked. Whatever tradition we're
talking about, whether it's our tradition,
Disciples of Christ, or any kind of mainline or
denominational grouping. I think it needs to be,

(51:51):
like, less focus on upholding the denomination and
more focus on supporting local churches, whatever
that looks like. Like making sure resources are
going down.

>> Dennis (52:04):
Amen.

Uh, Dennis, how about you?

Hey, Bruce.

>> Dennis (52:08):
Amen. Yeah, I was going to basically say the same
thing. It's that, um, for their. For our
denomination is that this will sound sacrilegious
to say, but I think it is that we need to focus
less on the more regional and general church and

(52:31):
more on the local church and to become more
networked, um, instead, um, so that we can network
with other churches and reach out and find ways to
work together, um, on, um, churches. And how can
we work on certain things? So how do we work on

(52:54):
helping each other with elders or, um, deacons, or
how do we work on things with baptism, um, or
outreach or. Or picking pastures or things to that
extent is to create networks out there, um, that

(53:16):
can reach out and help each other. Um, because I
think what we have done in the past is that we're
all kind of waiting for something above to come
down and do something, and that ain't working. And

(53:36):
it hasn't been working before 20 years or so. Um,
and so we have to kind of figure this out and find
ways of working that and work and kind of network,
because I think that's the way that things are
working now. The ways of old don't work anymore.

(53:59):
And, um, this is the way that it has to work.

Yeah, I think that Martha.

Um. Martha, I was going to say that it's not that
I believe that, uh, the whole church, all churches
of all sizes, matter and important. And the reason
I speak to large church, larger churches, because
I feel that because of the resources God has given

(54:28):
us, that we have to be willing to step outside of
our comfort zones, to come alongside other
churches that need.

Our help and support.

Because we got congregations of 100, 125 people
who. And you got a pastor in the church and you
can't pay the insurance. My insurance right now is
just out. It's outrageous what I pay for insurance
and, uh, a smaller congregation. They just don't

(54:58):
have the adequate resources. And then a pastor
gets in a situation, they feel so alone and
without resource. And we've been given these
opportunities and I think the collegiality and
working together and sharing. I just think there's
an obligation and a stewardship responsibility
from our. And I do. But I'm not saying that our
larger churches are not doing it. I'm just calling
us to it.

And I'm. I'm wanting to be responsible for that
too.

Yeah, I think obligations, stewardship, like those
are great words. And I think too often we default
to being competitors with each other, honestly. So
I think the more that we can really intentionally.
I think that can be a gift of our denominations is
to clap back against that sense of, uh,

(55:44):
competition and survival of the fittest, and
instead to have that really strong foundation of
network and relationship and shared
responsibility. Um, I think that's so important.
So, uh, let's have a closing question here. Um,
and I appreciate all three of you for helping, um,

(56:08):
me understand your denomination better, but also
to really drill into some pretty key questions
that I think, as Loren said at the very beginning,
transcend your denomination and apply for all of
us. Um, so thank you for your insight and your
time, uh, and all of the great work that you're

(56:31):
doing. Where do you see hope? Where do you see
hope in reclaiming, renewing that core story of
who you are as disciples of Christ and who we all
are as, uh, as followers of Christ? Um, how do
you. How do you see or feel hope in being able to

(56:56):
really lay claim to that for a, ah, world that
really needs to hear it. Loren, do you want to go?

>> Loren (57:06):
Yeah.
I feel a lot of hope for David or from David and
Dennis to colleagues and other colleagues. I have
a book sitting on my right. Hopefully going to
have him on the pod, uh, thriving church with
Aaron Cash and Corey Wilcoxon. I'm sorry, I'm
butchering that. Share some really encouraging
stories about, um, vitality and faithfulness

(57:29):
within other disciples churches. And I, I just am
encouraged by. I think there's an easy trend right
now to become very nihilistic and give up and even
in whatever kind of part of Society or North
America we want to talk about. It's easy to kind
of throw up our hand and think the world is

(57:49):
ending. And I think any kind of steps towards
faithfulness and hopefulness is encouraging. And
for me, signs of hope right now.

I love that. Thank you. Dennis, how about you?

>> Dennis (58:07):
I think that the hope. I'm seeing small places of
hope happening and I think it's in, I could say
small patches and small networks. Um, and I think
that's where it's happening. And, and it won't
happen in big splashes. It's just going to be

(58:29):
little kind of shoot. Green shoots.

Mhm.

>> Dennis (58:34):
But I think it's those green shoots that will kind
of become a garden over time. I think that's,
that's how it's going to happen.

Okay, that's. I'm hopeful.

I hear, I hear, I'm hearing, I'm hearing stories
in different places, in different spots. Uh,
people that I know who have been disciples for a
long time and new disciples were. Exciting things
are happening for our church. Uh, there's a pastor
named Josh Liu who's pastoring a church in Great
Bend, Kansas. And um, this church is reaching lots

(59:11):
of people in their community. The church has been
growing significantly. They just finished a new
building in a place where you would not expect
that may be not to happen. And uh, he's a great
leader. And uh, um, they're discipling people and
it's been very exciting to watch that. And I see
that in other places. I see leaders leading and

(59:33):
growing churches and other spots and here, there,
everywhere. Uh, I also think that there are a lot
of people who are serving in other particular
faiths that are restrictive, where people have
been going through a process of deconstruction and
who were serving in positions of leadership who
would find a welcome home in the disciples to come

(59:54):
and build and grow churches. Uh, we have a young
woman preaching her first sermon Sunday. The
graduate from Fuller Theological Center. He came
to us from another tradition and uh, is on the
ordination track with the disciples and preaching
her first sermon Sunday. And it's going to be
terrific. I can't wait.

>> Loren (01:00:13):
Wow.

>> Dennis Sanders (01:00:13):
For her to preach.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:00:13):
That's amazing.

>> David Emery (01:00:15):
Uh, she's priest and she came from another
tradition to our tradition. And uh, she's firmly
rooted in scripture. She's teaching our youth
every Wednesday night. She's our director of youth
ministries. I don't want to say her name out loud
because I'm afraid somebody's had a recruiter. But
she is awesome. And uh, is going to be you know,
in the future, going to be one of our great

(01:00:35):
disciples, preachers and leaders. M Also let me
say this. Phillips Theological Seminary has a new
class this year. A, uh, new class this year of
mostly MDiv students. They brought in 67 new
students.

>> Dennis (01:00:51):
Wow.

>> David Emery (01:00:52):
And their new dean is being installed here next
weekend. 67 students. Most of them are MDIBs
there. It's a free tuition, 100% tuition covered
now because of a incredible, uh, endowment. And
they have a new president, uh, who's doing a great
job, whose focus is a van who has a specialty in

(01:01:12):
Evangeline. So very excited about that.

>> Dennis Sanders (01:01:15):
Doug Powe.

Wow, that's, that's awesome. And of course,
Phillips is such a friend of Future Christian as
well. So great to have that showed up.

>> Loren (01:01:24):
Martha.

>> David Emery (01:01:25):
Yeah, we're excited about Phillips Phillips.

Yeah. Yay, Phillips.
Um, okay, Loren, any wrap up words that you want
to say before we say goodbye?

>> Loren (01:01:37):
No, I'm just grateful for folks, um, participating
in the conversation and Martha, for your, for your
hosting it here for us.

Yeah, thank you. I feel hopeful about today's
conversation and glad for all of your insights and
leadership. So thank you everyone. We always thank
you. Leave with the word of peace. So may Christ's
peace be with each.

>> Dennis (01:02:02):
Of you and also with me and also with you.

>> Loren Richmond (01:02:12):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our website@uh,
future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us
form at the bottom of the page to get in touch
with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a

(01:02:35):
favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It
really helps us get this out to more people.
Thanks and go in peace.

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