August 19, 2025 • 48 mins
Recorded live from the 2025 General Assembly of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Memphis, TN, Loren is joined once again by pastor and podcaster Dennis Sanders for a candid conversation about the state and future of the denomination. They reflect on what’s changed since past gatherings, the unique role and challenges of General Assembly in a time of declining attendance, and the ongoing tension between institutional loyalty and openness to diverse theological voices. From the missed opportunity of a revival resolution to the practical realities of costs, exhibitor layouts, and programming balance, Loren and Dennis bring both deep care and honest critique.
The conversation also moves beyond denominational borders—raising questions relevant to mainline and evangelical contexts alike:
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How should denominations engage in political advocacy when their cultural influence has waned?
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What would it take to be truly inclusive of conservative, moderate, and progressive voices?
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Where might revival come from—and how will we know it when we see it?
Dennis Sanders is an ordained Disciples of Christ minister and lead pastor of First Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota. A native of Flint, Michigan and big fan of the Detroit Tigers and Lions, Dennis is also a communications specialist for a Lutheran congregation in the Twin Cities and is the host of the Church and Main podcast, which tries to live out Karl Barth’s quote of reading the Bible and the newspaper and interpreting the news through the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with his husband Daniel and their cats.
Mentioned Resources:
🎧 Last GA Episode with Dennis: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-fgenv-1476ff7
📱 Dennis instagram: @adventcelina
📖 Mixed Ecology Book: https://www.churchpublishing.org/embracingthemixedecology
🌐 Ben Crosby's Substack: https://substack.com/@bencrosby
🌐 Jeff Gill's Substack: https://substack.com/@knapsack
🎧 Dennis Sanders: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-q2e35-134587d
🎧 Church and Main Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/church-and-main/id1660817140
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dennis Sanders back
to the pod. Dennis Sanders is an
ordained Disciples of Christ minister and lead pastor
of First Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.
A native of Flint, Michigan and a big fan of the
Detroit Tigers and Lions, Dennis
(01:04):
is also a communication specialist for a Lutheran
congregation in the Twin Cities and is the
host of the Church and main podcast which tries to
live out Karl Bart's quote of reading the Bible and
the newspaper and interpreting the news through
the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with
his husband Daniel and their cats.
(01:25):
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediapro.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
(01:46):
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:02):
Hey, and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Mitchman Jr. And I'm pleased to be
live recording, live and in person from
Disciples General assembly
here in uh, Memphis,
Tennessee. And uh, yeah,
this is becoming on board. I'm hoping Dennis will be a
(02:23):
long staying tradition of us doing like a
general assembly of the Disciples of Christ,
you know, episode. So
Dennis is unfortunately not here with us,
but ah, yeah. Dennis.
>> Dennis (02:38):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:38):
What do you want to say?
>> Dennis (02:39):
It is a kind of a,
a tradition. Um, yeah, didn't work out
this year to, to be together in person,
but I'm um, hoping uh, whenever
we meet again that we will do this
together. Live, uh, in the same town.
>> Loren (02:58):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (03:02):
So I think the first question I want to ask is
how are things going at General assembly? What are you
learning? What are your.
How is it different from Louisville in
2022? Three,
um, and going from there?
>> Loren (03:20):
I think one thing that has been noticeable
is the format feels slightly different in that it's
kind of wrapped around a weekend or at least
start for the weekend. So I think that
obviously I Can imagine it's challenging for
passers in some way is that all these passers
are having to cover, you know, find coverage for
(03:40):
Sunday morning. But I also does
do think it's a nice move towards
folks who might be bi vocational
in that they're not having to take off as much time
off work, for instance. And you know, it's just,
I think it's nice way to support local
churches. I attended
(04:01):
um, Jeff Mitchell's church Sunday morning
and it was a, you know, I'm sure many,
many other folks went to other churches
m in the Yosemite. So I think that's a great way to support
local churches too.
>> Dennis (04:18):
One of the things that I read
was something from Jeff Gill, who is
also a disciples pastor. Um, he was kind
of talking about general, uh, Assembly's past and some
of the challenges that are facing
the General Assembly. Um, one of the things
that I know that was talked about, I
(04:38):
have not heard much
um, from here being in
Minneapolis, but
the way that the design has been
rejiggered. We're supposed to have our next
General assembly three years from now. But
we don't know where that is going to be
(05:00):
because we have not yet put uh, any type
of contracts or anything. And part of that is
because of uh, declining attendance.
And I remember
my first General assembly was in
1999 and I think
that one had probably, I want
to say close to 7 or 8,000, um, that showed
(05:23):
up.
>> Loren (05:23):
Wow. Um, wow.
>> Dennis (05:25):
And I know that when I was in
Louisville two years ago,
it was supposed to project around
3,000. I don't even, I think Jeff even said it
did not even fit that.
Um, and there was a lot of talk about this
General assembly in Memphis being in the
lower. Um, since I'm not there, I can't
(05:46):
judge that.
>> Loren (05:47):
But yeah, you know,
I mean, I think this is interesting and I think
this is a good way to,
to make this conversation applicable to more than just
discipline price. Yeah, you know,
listeners. Because this is,
this is relevant to I think broadly speaking
mainline and even like I think
(06:09):
evangelical context is just like how do you make.
Because it's funny, I got to meet Jeff in
person like half an hour ago. Uh, so
we'll have to make sure at least for me and
don't mind doing this. Well put his substack in our show
notes.
But I think his, his substack was
(06:29):
interesting when he talked about the challenge of
this, this conference so to speak, as it really
was kind of just a conference, but more
for I guess non disciples this year. I Call it a
conference, but being kind of like an institutionalist
event. M. And, you
know, Institutionalists mostly being
(06:50):
older and daring off and then
this is. This event has kind of niche
to be more geared towards progressive
institutionalists, which I think
certainly there's been some hint,
maybe those not progressive, they'd probably stay stronger
than hint,
(07:12):
you know. So. Yeah. It's interesting
though, I would say, you.
>> Dennis (07:17):
Know, I wonder if it's being
more. I mean, I think that you're.
You're correct in some point of the progressive institutionalists,
but that is also geared towards. As Jeff talks about the
idealists as well.
>> Loren (07:31):
Right.
>> Dennis (07:31):
Um.
>> Loren (07:32):
Right.
>> Dennis (07:32):
Aren't as interested
in kind of all of the. Maybe the nuts and
bolts and some of the things that
I think I would be as. Because, uh, I kind of consider myself
an institutionalist and, you know,
I'm interested about things. About how
are things going to help the local church? How are things going.
(07:55):
Things that I think can be helpful.
I don't always see as much, but I.
You know, it is more geared to
the idealists and some of the things that they're interested in. And
I don't want it to be to the point of, well, we
should ignore them. That's not my point.
>> Loren (08:13):
Right.
>> Dennis (08:14):
But, uh, it's kind of where the
balance is tilting.
>> Loren (08:22):
Yeah. I think. I mean,
I hate to say this out loud, uh, that I kind of already did, but
I think the first day there was like, a
resolution to condemn Projects 2025.
And as much as I don't like
Project 2025, I just wanted, like,
what is the point of a.
(08:44):
Of a denomination or institution of less than, you
know, let's say 200,000 people in a nation of
300 million? Like, why are we,
you know, why are we wasting our time on this? I don't. I don't know
if that. I hope that's not too harsh.
>> Dennis (09:01):
I don't think it is harsh. I, uh, mean, I.
But I think we're trying to bring this out
beyond just our denomination. Um,
and I think that there is a.
There's a concern. I think we're still operating
in a way that. When I
think especially mainline churches, but even just the church in general, I
(09:23):
think had more influence in our culture. And
people who were in powerful positions
listened to what the church had to say.
And I don't think that we are in that culture
anymore. Uh, even among people who
may agree with us that something like
(09:43):
Project 2025 is not a good thing. I
don't think they care whether the disciples of Christ
thinks that's a good idea.
Um, the question is,
what does that mean? And it's not that we
don't pay attention to what's going on in the
world, but, but I think the
way that we used to operate and I think you maybe
(10:06):
even shared this, you've been sharing a book that you've
been reading about the importance
of that, you know, want
to feel like we have to be heard in uh, our society.
And I think that way that we
do it might have worked
in the 70s and 80s. I just don't think it works
(10:27):
now.
>> Loren (10:29):
Yeah, the book is the Mixed Ecology. It's a new book coming out
from Shiley, Dwight, Shiley and
Pogue. Is that how you say it?
>> Dennis (10:39):
I, um, think so. I have a hard time trying to
pronounce his name.
>> Loren (10:46):
For sure. It's not saying, it's spelling it. That's very true.
Uh, I really appreciate their work and I followed
Dwight's work in the past,
but I'm trying to find the quote here now.
Oh yeah, it says political and social advocacy is another way in
which churches can operate from a Christian dumb, um, mindset.
Denominations and other church bodies make social statements
(11:08):
and pronouncements on various political issues
with the assumption they have moral credibility and will influence
the nation. So I thought it was very
fascinating and so many of, especially our more
progressive folks just railing against Christendom for good
reason.
>> Dennis (11:25):
Um, we still want Christendom, or at
least we act like.
>> Loren (11:29):
Yeah, right, right. So it's like we don't want it,
but in some ways we do want it.
Mhm.
>> Dennis (11:36):
Yeah. I mean, I think we,
what we don't want is, I think who
is running Christendom.
>> Loren (11:44):
Right.
>> Dennis (11:45):
And I think in this case it would be
more evangelical, especially Christian nationalists,
because we want to run Christendom.
And the whole point of this is it's
bad. It doesn't matter who's the
person running. It could be, uh, just a better
run Christendom. That doesn't make it. That's not the point.
(12:06):
And I think especially in our
culture now, not that
Christendom was ever really a good thing, but it really doesn't
work anymore because no one cares
about what we think. And
so then we have to think about what does that
mean and what does it mean then to operate as a
(12:26):
church in
culture with all the things that we're dealing with,
especially in our current time?
>> Loren (12:35):
Um, right.
>> Dennis (12:36):
And I think to me what's more important
is how are we being a
witness to Christ in our
time? And those
are Some of the things I think are more important that I want to
focus on and not, uh, necessarily.
Here's this statement that we can
all feel good that we just passed that
(12:58):
no one else cares about.
>> Loren (13:00):
Right. I mean, again, to be clear, like, neither one
of US Support Project
2025.
>> Dennis (13:06):
Nope. No.
>> Loren (13:09):
No.
>> Dennis (13:10):
It is bad.
So I guess one question that I have.
Um, having
you had your experience now in Memphis
and you've been there since Friday,
um, where do you
think General
assembly is going? And maybe to open
(13:33):
up to listeners who aren't disciple, but maybe
Presbyterian or Episcopalian or whatever.
Where do these gatherings go?
Um, you know, one of our
again and the other Jeff that we talk about, Jeff Mitchell,
um, has, ah, sometimes said that he thinks this is the last
General Assembly. I hope he's not
(13:54):
right, because I think that these things still. Still
have some value.
>> Loren (13:58):
Right.
>> Dennis (13:58):
But I think maybe where he's getting at
does have some, something. There's some value in what
he's saying. So what is the future
of this?
>> Loren (14:09):
I mean, obviously, like, you and I are not
insiders by any stretch.
M. That's probably obvious even already in our conversation.
Right? We're not insiders. I was
talking to a buddy here I'm, um, with. And
I guess there's. There's some rumors, there's some
conversation, some chatter around, um, Kansas city.
(14:30):
Because in
2027, I think that's. No,
I guess it'd be 28. Would it be the 60th anniversary?
M. Yeah. Yeah. The what the
you can say restructure.
>> Dennis (14:45):
Kind of when we became restructured denomination.
>> Loren (14:48):
Which I guess was in Kansas City. So to have it back in Kansas
City would make sense. There's also a
strong Disciples presence in Kansas. So I think
it makes sense, probably speaking, to focus on
having it in regions of the country where there's a strong single
presence.
>> Dennis (15:05):
It's also very centrally located.
>> Loren (15:08):
Right. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I
don't know, I
think Memphis. I don't know how, how it is for others because I live
in Denver. So it's, you know, it's not generally hard
for me to get out of, uh, Denver, the places. But I think
centrally located places with a strong Disciples presence
obviously kind of limits you to, you know, what,
(15:29):
Kansas City, Tennessee,
Louisville, I suppose Texas for sure
would be another.
Um, but
I guess broadly speaking, true point, like, I
always think there's value if, if, if anything for
this. Like when I was.
(15:50):
It's a Monday afternoon on Friday night when I was at the Denver
airport getting ready to get on the Plane,
you know, and I was of course spotted some
other Disciples clergy there and one of
them is working at a UCC church right now, United Church of Christ
Church. And this person was like, oh, it's so
much more fun to be at the Disciples General
(16:10):
assembly than the UCC Synod, which is
happening concurrent right now in Kansas City.
>> Dennis (16:16):
Kansas City, Yeah.
>> Loren (16:18):
So I think if even from that like you know,
they talk about often, I mean this is, this is the good and
bad. Right, Dennis? We'd agree like Disciples is like a
big family reunion. Mhm. That's good.
Except when you're like the adopted kid and then no one gives a
crap who you are.
Which I think, Dennis, you can. I can relate to.
>> Dennis (16:39):
Yeah.
>> Loren (16:42):
May, I'm being too cynical here, aren't I?
>> Dennis (16:44):
No, you're not. No, you're not.
I mean, I think that's one of the reasons I'm not there this year is
that.
>> Loren (16:52):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (16:54):
Especially last time and, and there were good points of
last year and, and 23 was weird for me
personally just because my mom was. Had
had a stroke and there was just a lot of uproar
and everything. Um, but it just did
not. I think one of the things that
was really has been always good about General assembly is
(17:15):
that it feels like a big old family reunion. And it
didn't like that.
>> Loren (17:19):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (17:20):
This time around. And so it kind of colored my
perception um, about
going this year because I just did not want to feel like
the red headed stepchild again.
>> Loren (17:32):
Right, right.
>> Dennis (17:33):
That is something I want to hopefully
recapture is that sense that
um, and this was in talking with another
disciple pastor that really we
can really kind
of recapture the breadth and depth of the denomination
and that you know,
(17:53):
that we are kind of a truly diverse
in many different ways. And to try
to bring that. Because I don't feel that we've.
I mean I don't know what it's like now in Memphis,
but when I was in Louisville I felt like that was lost.
>> Loren (18:10):
Well, let's talk about that if we can, because I think,
I think it's been very obvious
and this is something that I really appreciate. Like
last night thinking about this is like the Disciples are
very diverse from a
race and ethnicity part standpoint. And I
very much appreciate that. And I feel like GA
(18:32):
goes out of their way to highlight that in a good way.
>> Dennis (18:35):
And I, and I think, I think that's wonderful as uh,
speaking as uh, African American, I think that's great.
>> Loren (18:42):
But I'm thinking of again Jeff Gill's
substack in that he talked about not
necessarily being inclusive of
conservative or moderate voices. And I wonder how do
you. Like I was talking about this with a friend over lunch. Like,
how could. How could this be structured
in a way to be more inclusive of those other
(19:03):
perspectives theologically? Like, would it be like a
certain speaker, you know,
what are your thoughts?
>> Dennis (19:11):
I think part of it is. Is a certain speaker.
Um, but I also
think, you know, even there. There has to be some.
There has to be some give that, uh,
progressives don't get bent out of shape if a
conservative says something a little bit different
and vice versa.
>> Loren (19:31):
Right, Right.
>> Dennis (19:33):
Though I also kind of wonder, and this is,
this is actually speaking to something that I've experienced,
had just experienced and that you are going to experience,
um, through something called the Iowa Preachers Project.
And what I
learned from that experience, and it was a.
That group that I was in was made
(19:56):
up of people from both liberal and conservative
denominations, denominations that were more
gay, Frankie and others that weren't.
And yet we held together.
And I think what was centered,
central about that was the preaching and
the centrality of the gospel.
(20:18):
And I think that's something that has to be the
center. Center thing, the thing that
holds us together. Because I think
what is a problem in our. In the modern church today is
that as much as we may talk about Jesus or
all the time, we're really held
together by our ideologies. And this is not
a progressive problem or, uh, just a conservative
(20:40):
problem. Both.
>> Loren (20:42):
Yes.
>> Dennis (20:43):
And so I think if we want to be more
to have a wider breadth, it also means we
have to really change our reference. That it's not
about the things that we do,
but it's really about who are we centering it
on. And of course, um, I'm, um, centering
it on Christ and not on
(21:04):
whatever greatest progressive or conservative
piece of no statement that
we want to get out.
>> Loren (21:11):
Yeah. So for kicks and grins,
Dennis Ideate with me for a minute. Like, who would be
a speaker that would resonate with
conservative voices, conservative perspectives, who would
not be like, obviously you don't want to invite someone who's like off the
rails. But like
someone suggested, like Adam Hamilton.
(21:32):
Although is he middle of the road enough?
I think he like Carrie Newhoff, but
I don't know if he would come because he probably thinks he's too big of a deal.
>> Dennis (21:44):
I don't know. He's an interesting one.
Um, and. And I think
the. The added thing about Carrie Newhoff is that he
comes because he's Canadian. It's. It's Just a
totally different mindset.
>> Loren (21:58):
Right.
>> Dennis (21:59):
It's just kind of, you know, where do you kind of
put that? I mean, he's someone that I think would be
interesting.
Um,
Jason Mel, who
I've, you know, talked about is. Is also
a good one. Yeah.
>> Loren (22:18):
Who's. He's umc. Is that correct?
>> Dennis (22:19):
He's umc. Yep.
>> Loren (22:21):
Okay.
>> Dennis (22:24):
Um, trying to think though. Unfortunately
she's getting older and probably would. Traveling is an
issue. Is something like a Fleming Rutledge.
>> Loren (22:32):
Um, sure, sure.
>> Dennis (22:34):
I think.
>> Loren (22:34):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (22:36):
No, I would say in some ways
politically liberal, but. No.
Right.
>> Loren (22:42):
Very gospel centered.
>> Dennis (22:44):
Gospel centered and just. I think would just be great.
Uh, Will Williman is another one.
>> Loren (22:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (22:52):
Um, yeah, you know, it's not gonna.
Those names are not gonna please everyone, but
I think that they are.
There's enough in what they say that they
could bring people to the table and. Want to
hear something.
>> Loren (23:08):
Yeah.
>> Loren Richmond (23:09):
Cause I think.
>> Loren (23:10):
Who was I talking about? Oh, it was.
I was interviewing one of my. I
did another podcast this morning with Doug Poe, the
president of Phillips Seminary M.
It may release before or after this
conversation. But I, you know, I was asking him as
a, As a Methodist, what he thinks is
perspective of the General assembly. And I
(23:33):
told him this is similar to Methodism. But you know, the
thing that I really appreciate about the disciples tradition is that
like all, uh, are uh, welcome at the table
no matter if you're. No matter what. And I think
that was what pained me to read Jeff Gill's post
is like, well, gosh, it seems like
(23:54):
we're kind of setting up some barriers,
whether purposeful or accidental, that we're having
a big table here, but not everyone's here.
Mhm.
>> Dennis (24:04):
Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, that is
part of the, the issue. And,
and I mean I've seen it in the workshop.
One of the big things for me has always been the workshops
and.
>> Loren (24:17):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Dennis (24:18):
When I was in Des Moines in 2019,
um, there were a lot of good
workshops that were on the, you
know, for the local church
that when I went to
Louisville four years later, I
didn't find very much
(24:42):
that was sort of distressing.
Um, now there was a lot more on things like
activism and yeah, there
is a role for that, but I felt. It felt like that was the
only thing. And it's kind of like,
you know, are we talking about
helping people who may be interested in planting new
(25:02):
churches or are we talking about. But we want to
revitalize current churches?
Um, you know, there was a really good
workshop about
churches moving or Selling property, which
obviously I fell into that issue a few years
later. That was helpful.
>> Loren (25:20):
Yeah, I think I was in that workshop where
I think we didn't know each other back then, but I think I went
to that. At least one of those workshops, you know. Okay,
sounds interesting.
>> Dennis (25:30):
I mean, I think those things were also
helpful. And
I know Orlando, and I
think they may have brought some of that back, but Orlando, I
remember they were able to get Walter
Brudeman and have a really. It was some really
good Bible study in the morning,
(25:51):
um, of the day. Um, and that
was really good to see that,
um, things that I think help
people are, you know, just get
things for helping pastors, but even lay leaders to
that they can take and can
grow in their faith or be edified in their
(26:13):
faith. I think those are things that are important.
>> Loren (26:18):
Mhm.
We want to talk about our failed attempt at a
resolution, Dennis.
>> Dennis (26:25):
Oh God,
yes. Let's talk about it.
>> Loren (26:30):
Okay. I wasn't sure if I wanted to get that.
We've been hot take ish a little bit. So let's get really hot take ish,
right? Mhm.
>> Dennis (26:38):
No, I, I think we should talk about it because I think that that's important.
Um, and I, I
feel like it kind of fits
what's going on, what maybe
has been going on in the denomination.
So why don't you set us up and
then I can.
>> Loren (26:58):
So I can't remember if this was
your idea or my idea, Dennis, but
I remember at some point us talking and
me saying like, yeah, let's have.
Oh. Because I'd read Ben Crosby's Pro,
where he had made a similar subset. I don't know if
I can find the original subject, but about kind of
(27:18):
lamenting these, like we talked
about with Project 2025 is in his case the
Episcopal Church, like spending so much time at
their, their version of this,
creating resolutions that, uh, again, for, uh.
They're not much bigger than the disciples
when, you know, their, you know, ancient
(27:41):
similarities is on a vast, stark
decline. And his big timing was that we should
be more calm, spending more time on
renewal and revitalization and revival.
So I said maybe we should just make it.
Try to do a resolution on
fair and revival for 2025.
(28:04):
And boy, I did not
realize the
hoops that you have to go through to get.
>> Dennis (28:14):
Well. And I, uh. And you can explain
that there were, it seemed like there were a lot of hoops
that you had to go through in order for that
resolution to become a live
issue.
>> Loren (28:26):
Yeah, I was kind of surprised. Like I Had a
zoom with someone in the GMP
office. I won't say names,
but I had a zoom.
And nothing. Nothing
negative, but, you know, I had a zoom. And then we had,
like, I think another zoom. If I remember correctly. I could
be misremembering, but, you know, this is fine. And
(28:49):
I tried to. Try to be clear, like, this
is not me trying to be some, like,
evangel, evangelical conservative
breed. Like, I'm just trying to say, like.
Like we're. We're denomination decline. Like, and I believe
in our. Our tradition. Like, let's pray
for revival. And we just do that.
>> Dennis (29:14):
Yeah. And it just seemed like. I, uh,
think I remember that there had to be,
you know, all of
these ducks in a row on.
And it just didn't seem like there was just
that much of a. You know,
you kind of had hope that maybe
(29:36):
from the.
The office of the. Of the general minister that there would just
be kind of. Yeah, this is. This is good.
>> Loren (29:45):
All right, let's make this happen.
>> Dennis (29:46):
And it. Nope, this could not get
that to happen. And.
And I don't know why that was.
You know, it didn't seem like there was
interest for. And. And some.
I do wonder if there was some suspicion.
>> Loren (30:07):
Oh, I know there's suspicion. Like the. The zoom.
I felt like the first 20 minutes were me, like,
talking them down. Like, me being
like, this isn't what you think it is. This isn't what you think it is. This
isn't what you think it is.
>> Dennis (30:20):
You know, which is funny because even within
the. The resolution, it didn't. It's
not like it was some. That, you know,
we were making some kind of a, uh. Uh,
Christian nationalism or something.
>> Loren (30:34):
Right. Right.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think. I think two
observations I have, or.
One would. I would kind of second what you just
noted about kind of wishing there was more
fervor or alignment
from leadership around social media.
(30:57):
But two, you know, I think this kind of.
Is perhaps the detriment of this. This kind
of structure is like,
you know, it's hard to get something off the ground if you're just an outsider
and you don't have institutional power,
you know.
>> Dennis (31:14):
Yeah. And I think that
is part of the problem is that
if you have, uh, an interest in
things such as revival
or prayer,
there really isn't.
>> Loren (31:34):
A.
>> Dennis (31:34):
Constituency, it seems,
you know,
not in the same way as some of the constituencies would be
for other issues.
And so it's just. And I
think. I don't know, maybe it's just the way that our, uh,
(31:55):
society is Set up. Is that. So
if we don't say something that isn't explicitly
progressive, then it's immediately
viewed with suspicion.
So it just makes it hard and
very difficult for anything to move forward
because if it's not,
(32:18):
um, on, um, the side that you favor, then
we're just not going to trust it.
>> Loren (32:24):
And tell me what you think of this
too, Dennis. I'm wondering. You and I,
if I understand correctly, Right. We're both not, quote,
unquote, native disciples, right?
>> Dennis (32:35):
Yep. Yeah.
>> Loren (32:38):
You know, so even when I was at the airport
amongst this really, really handful of
folks traveling to ga it was like,
oh, I went to camp with you and you were. I was your
counselor when you were a teenager and you were
her counselor when she was a teenager. And
you know, that kind of, I, I, uh, it lends
(32:59):
itself to the, to the family
metaphor of the family reunion for good
reasons, but also
I think it's hard for folks to recognize who are
in that, like, how insular. Makes it towards
bringing new people into the fold.
>> Dennis (33:20):
Yeah, I feel the same way because
I think, um, our
camping ministry in the upper Midwest
is big. I mean, it's very important. It's a very
central part of the operations of, of
the region. And so
it can feel, at least for me, kind of outside of
(33:41):
it, because I didn't grow up in that. Um.
>> Loren (33:43):
Right. And so, and to be clear, like, this is great.
Yeah, great.
>> Dennis (33:48):
No one's putting it down.
>> Loren (33:49):
Nope. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (33:52):
But it, it does. There is a kind of a
outsider pull about that.
So.
But I think you
had talked about what might be
happening in a few years, that Kansas
City might be, um, where
(34:12):
we meet next. Um, one of
the things that has been a concern, and Jeff Gill
talks about this is cost.
>> Loren (34:22):
Yes.
>> Dennis (34:23):
Because registration
is really expensive now.
>> Loren (34:28):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (34:29):
If you are someone, and I used to in the past
would go to some of the dinners, those
are expensive. Uh, yeah,
it's just really costly
to do this. And, um,
as he was saying, it's hard when there isn't
a lot of. Where in the past
(34:51):
maybe, uh, a church would pay
people's way. They're not, for a lot of
reasons, doing that anymore. So
the question is, how do you bring down that cost? And I mean,
that's not a big theological issue, but it is a
practical issue.
>> Loren (35:08):
Well, I hope we're not being overly critical
here. Maybe we are. So my apologies
to listeners and especially disciple listeners if we're
all really critical. Like we're saying this. I,
I think, Dennis, you would second this. We're saying this out of like
deep care and appreciation for a tradition
and denomination that welcomed us. Mhm.
(35:28):
Um, but like even as I'm like I'm literally
here right now recording an exhibit hall
and like, you know, all the sponsors are
internal sponsors, which is fine.
But I'm also thinking to be the.
>> Dennis (35:42):
Case it needs to have a lot of outside exhibitors.
>> Loren (35:46):
And I'm thinking about even like how the structure of the,
of the layout of the exhibit hall is that
external visitors are all kind
of in the back corner.
And I feel like if anyone used to have flipped out
because like the big exhibitors,
like I won't say who they are, but we all know if you're disciples
(36:08):
and imagine in your tradition of the um, omnish, like
they know who the big exhibitors are. Like they're going
to draw people to them. So wouldn't
you rather to retain
and engage the external sponsors or
exhibitors have people have
to first encounter those outsiders
(36:29):
and then walk through those outsiders to
the big draws. To me that would make more
sense. Does that make sense? Mm,
mhm.
>> Dennis (36:39):
Yeah, I would agree. I think
there is this, you know, there's not a whole
lot, at least from what I remember the exhibit
hall in Louisville and it sounds like it's the same in
Memphis, that things
like that also need to change.
And I think in some ways to inspire because
(37:00):
it's a place where people hang out.
>> Loren (37:02):
Uh, right, because. And I think like
Vancouver church giving platform.
Right. And I'm looking at them, they're kind of like
buried off at a corner
and like we need more
like those are the kind of external
organizations when we think just about cost. We
(37:23):
need external church focused organizations like that to,
to keep coming and subsidize the cost
of this. And to do that, like we
need to flip the hall so that people first encounter
them. At minimum just walk by and see the
booth, um, and get some traffic.
So that makes it feel worth their time and money because
(37:43):
like the giant exhibitors that
we know who they are, like they're going to get like, I'll
just say the pension fund is going to get traffic. Like I'm looking
at the pension fund. Love the pension fund. Pension fund
is great. They're going to get traffic. And in fairness
to the pension fund, they're actually towards the back too.
But to my point, like
(38:06):
I would put, I would flip it just so again, we're
engaging external vendors
and making it worth their time for being here.
>> Dennis (38:15):
Mhm. Well, it used to be we would have
vendors such as Copesbury uh,
and that was a huge draw and we don't have that
anymore. And
you know, I still like to read
and read actual, uh, physical books. So
it would be nice if they had things like that because that
(38:36):
was something that you wanted to go to. You know, there were
people who sold, you know,
stoles or.
Um.
>> Loren (38:45):
Yeah, I mean they're all here. Yeah,
I'm again, I just think like those are the people who should
be.
>> Dennis (38:51):
Like front and center.
>> Loren (38:53):
Yeah, front and center. Because like I get,
I get like these denominational
ministries gave a lot of money and I want to honor
them, but they're gonna, they're gonna have a big
draw just because of who they are,
because of freestanding relationships.
So if we're gonna help these
(39:14):
kind of smaller
organizations continue to be attracted
on gain from being here,
let's get them as much traffic we can. If we're just thinking like practically
about managing costs, you know.
>> Dennis (39:30):
I agree.
I think though the question also is do we
need to have things taking
place like in a big convention center? SMEs
too. Could that be. And this is in a
hotel? Um, I don't know.
That's just something I'm not. I don't
(39:51):
do logistics like that.
>> Loren (39:52):
But I mean, I've wondered about this too. Is
there certainly there's hotels
that are pretty big. Like I've been at
conferences for untriculated, um,
work conferences that existed like the Gaylord
or convention. Like hotels of that
size that are pretty big
(40:13):
and can handle like I was in
Gaylord for a non church war conference and
there's like multiple conventions happening
at the hotel. And I wonder
like, could you get a deal there
to make it more manageable,
Pay your feud. You know, you're
(40:35):
booking so many rooms and they.
I don't know. I don't. I'm not a hospitality
expert, but I think these are the kind of
outside the box thoughts we need to think about for sure
to make this more manageable. And who
knows, maybe he's already being bounced
around.
>> Dennis (40:56):
So one question I have. Since you have been there,
I don't know if you've had an opportunity to go to any of the worship
experiences, um, at
night. What have those been like,
have they been good?
Inspiring. Oh my God,
horrible.
>> Loren (41:16):
I mean Bernice King was ah, an honor,
uh, humbling and honoring to just be a
part of that. Challenging to think
when she. This was a really inspiring story that should
be lifted up for. I was never aware of. But she
mentioned how this was pre. The.
The preamble, the official organization of the
(41:37):
denomination. But the year before,
uh, her father, Martin Luther King Jr. Had been invited to
speak at the gathering. Wow.
And it was going to be in Dallas. And
the city officials in Dallas said, hey, you should
not invite mlk. And it
was, uh, the leader was Fears. I don't. Can't remember his first
(42:00):
name or his position. Uh,
but Fear said, well, we're willing to take
it elsewhere. Which I think
is a pretty inspiring move,
you know, to say, like, we believe in
inclusion, and that's been part of our
history from the beginning. Like, I was pretty inspired to hear that.
(42:22):
Her message was very inspiring,
um, and powerful. You know,
I've very much appreciated being in.
In such a large body at worship. You know,
it's kind of like a mega M church on the road. So,
Steve. Uh, and that's been
often encouraging.
>> Dennis (42:44):
Okay, well, that's good to
hear. Uh, yeah, because
I think that those are kind of the important.
Of all the things that happen at a general assembly,
the worship services wouldn't matter.
Um, I think so.
>> Loren (43:02):
I think so.
>> Dennis (43:04):
And, um, I think that there have been, for me, some really good
experiences and some that
fell short.
>> Loren (43:12):
I mean, there's. There's been a couple of moments where I
kind of was wondering what's going on, and I
think that's kind of how these things are. You. Sometimes
they're trying to. You know, it's like a sermon. Sometimes you try
to do too much, right?
>> Dennis (43:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
>> Loren (43:30):
Too much in the sermon, too much in the worship service.
>> Dennis (43:37):
So I think maybe one final question that
I have is,
and this is kind of going back to Jeff's article,
is, where do you see
us as a denomination? Where is our
future headed?
>> Loren (43:55):
Wow.
>> Dennis (43:56):
I mean, you know, numbers are not great,
but that doesn't. I don't want to make it sound like that's,
you know, we're done, but.
>> Loren (44:06):
Well, I think what is continually
surprising and compelling,
shocking, is how much, like, there's still a lot of
institutional money. Like,
it's not everywhere.
Um, certainly some organizations or parts have more money than
others, but, like, there's still a lot of institutional money.
(44:29):
Like, there's still pockets of
vitality that are very inspiring.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think
it's my prayer that there would be
revival. And I think.
I think the only thing I can say is, like,
I've been reading voices about this and saying
(44:50):
that, like, we can't. We can't manufacture
revival. Like, we can just pray and hope that
when God moves, we recognize it and get on board.
Yep. So. So maybe that's maybe that's my
prayer. Is it like
a. That there would be revival
in our nation? That uh,
(45:11):
we would get on board and, and if
I can make a quick addendum to that too, like this is
something that I see
room, I see chatter
about in evangelical circles about they're happening in Bible
happening. And I wonder like, are we
missing out?
(45:33):
Mhm.
>> Dennis (45:34):
Well, I mean, I think that is interesting. If
you think a few years ago when that all was
happening in um. Asbury.
Asbury, there were some people that were
equally dismissive of it.
>> Loren (45:47):
And.
>> Dennis (45:50):
I think that there will always be people,
especially in mainline churches, that will be dismissive of
us. But I also think
there will be people, maybe not
large numbers, pockets, that
will be interested and that if there is
revival, that's kind of how I think it will happen.
Not in large big countries, but
(46:13):
in kind of pockets. And
I think that's what
to keep an eye out for and to have.
>> Loren (46:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis, I feel like we've done this before, either
you and I, or like
maybe I've done this with other guests, but I feel like we should just like say
a prayer for our
denomination and for our
nation and our, our
churches.
>> Dennis (46:42):
Yeah, I've done that before. You're keeping in good
company with our mutual friend Jeff Mitchell,
who I think always wants to end an interview
with prayer
that is not unusual. All
right, I'd be willing to do that if you like.
>> Loren (46:59):
Okay, go for it.
>> Dennis (47:00):
All right. God, we thank you for
gathering us here to chat and to talk.
And we do pray for revival
and not just within our
church, though that is needed, but within our nation
because it is sorely needed.
(47:22):
And importantly, give us the eyes to see
and the ears to hear when
that is happening. M. Give us the heart
to know when that might be moving within
us
and help us to be able to spread that good
news to those that we meet,
(47:42):
regardless of who they are. So that
your word, your love and your good news
might be proclaimed throughout the land.
In Jesus name we pray.
>> Loren (47:56):
Amen. Um, Amen.
Um, well, for my
podcast to close this out,
Dennis, may God's peace with.
>> Dennis (48:06):
You and ah, as the Lutherans
like to say, and also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (48:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love Christmas. Hear from our listeners with
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(48:38):
But before you go do us a favor. Subscribe to
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peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dennis Sanders back
to the pod. Dennis Sanders is an
ordained Disciples of Christ minister and lead pastor
of First Christian Church in St. Paul, Minnesota.
A native of Flint, Michigan and a big fan of the
Detroit Tigers and Lions, Dennis
(01:04):
is also a communication specialist for a Lutheran
congregation in the Twin Cities and is the
host of the Church and main podcast which tries to
live out Karl Bart's quote of reading the Bible and
the newspaper and interpreting the news through
the Bible. Dennis lives in Minneapolis with
his husband Daniel and their cats.
(01:25):
A reminder, before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
a review and share Future Christian with a friend.
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an
email@laurensonatemediapro.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
(01:46):
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:02):
Hey, and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Mitchman Jr. And I'm pleased to be
live recording, live and in person from
Disciples General assembly
here in uh, Memphis,
Tennessee. And uh, yeah,
this is becoming on board. I'm hoping Dennis will be a
(02:23):
long staying tradition of us doing like a
general assembly of the Disciples of Christ,
you know, episode. So
Dennis is unfortunately not here with us,
but ah, yeah. Dennis.
>> Dennis (02:38):
Yeah.
>> Loren (02:38):
What do you want to say?
>> Dennis (02:39):
It is a kind of a,
a tradition. Um, yeah, didn't work out
this year to, to be together in person,
but I'm um, hoping uh, whenever
we meet again that we will do this
together. Live, uh, in the same town.
>> Loren (02:58):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (03:02):
So I think the first question I want to ask is
how are things going at General assembly? What are you
learning? What are your.
How is it different from Louisville in
2022? Three,
um, and going from there?
>> Loren (03:20):
I think one thing that has been noticeable
is the format feels slightly different in that it's
kind of wrapped around a weekend or at least
start for the weekend. So I think that
obviously I Can imagine it's challenging for
passers in some way is that all these passers
are having to cover, you know, find coverage for
(03:40):
Sunday morning. But I also does
do think it's a nice move towards
folks who might be bi vocational
in that they're not having to take off as much time
off work, for instance. And you know, it's just,
I think it's nice way to support local
churches. I attended
(04:01):
um, Jeff Mitchell's church Sunday morning
and it was a, you know, I'm sure many,
many other folks went to other churches
m in the Yosemite. So I think that's a great way to support
local churches too.
>> Dennis (04:18):
One of the things that I read
was something from Jeff Gill, who is
also a disciples pastor. Um, he was kind
of talking about general, uh, Assembly's past and some
of the challenges that are facing
the General Assembly. Um, one of the things
that I know that was talked about, I
(04:38):
have not heard much
um, from here being in
Minneapolis, but
the way that the design has been
rejiggered. We're supposed to have our next
General assembly three years from now. But
we don't know where that is going to be
(05:00):
because we have not yet put uh, any type
of contracts or anything. And part of that is
because of uh, declining attendance.
And I remember
my first General assembly was in
1999 and I think
that one had probably, I want
to say close to 7 or 8,000, um, that showed
(05:23):
up.
>> Loren (05:23):
Wow. Um, wow.
>> Dennis (05:25):
And I know that when I was in
Louisville two years ago,
it was supposed to project around
3,000. I don't even, I think Jeff even said it
did not even fit that.
Um, and there was a lot of talk about this
General assembly in Memphis being in the
lower. Um, since I'm not there, I can't
(05:46):
judge that.
>> Loren (05:47):
But yeah, you know,
I mean, I think this is interesting and I think
this is a good way to,
to make this conversation applicable to more than just
discipline price. Yeah, you know,
listeners. Because this is,
this is relevant to I think broadly speaking
mainline and even like I think
(06:09):
evangelical context is just like how do you make.
Because it's funny, I got to meet Jeff in
person like half an hour ago. Uh, so
we'll have to make sure at least for me and
don't mind doing this. Well put his substack in our show
notes.
But I think his, his substack was
(06:29):
interesting when he talked about the challenge of
this, this conference so to speak, as it really
was kind of just a conference, but more
for I guess non disciples this year. I Call it a
conference, but being kind of like an institutionalist
event. M. And, you
know, Institutionalists mostly being
(06:50):
older and daring off and then
this is. This event has kind of niche
to be more geared towards progressive
institutionalists, which I think
certainly there's been some hint,
maybe those not progressive, they'd probably stay stronger
than hint,
(07:12):
you know. So. Yeah. It's interesting
though, I would say, you.
>> Dennis (07:17):
Know, I wonder if it's being
more. I mean, I think that you're.
You're correct in some point of the progressive institutionalists,
but that is also geared towards. As Jeff talks about the
idealists as well.
>> Loren (07:31):
Right.
>> Dennis (07:31):
Um.
>> Loren (07:32):
Right.
>> Dennis (07:32):
Aren't as interested
in kind of all of the. Maybe the nuts and
bolts and some of the things that
I think I would be as. Because, uh, I kind of consider myself
an institutionalist and, you know,
I'm interested about things. About how
are things going to help the local church? How are things going.
(07:55):
Things that I think can be helpful.
I don't always see as much, but I.
You know, it is more geared to
the idealists and some of the things that they're interested in. And
I don't want it to be to the point of, well, we
should ignore them. That's not my point.
>> Loren (08:13):
Right.
>> Dennis (08:14):
But, uh, it's kind of where the
balance is tilting.
>> Loren (08:22):
Yeah. I think. I mean,
I hate to say this out loud, uh, that I kind of already did, but
I think the first day there was like, a
resolution to condemn Projects 2025.
And as much as I don't like
Project 2025, I just wanted, like,
what is the point of a.
(08:44):
Of a denomination or institution of less than, you
know, let's say 200,000 people in a nation of
300 million? Like, why are we,
you know, why are we wasting our time on this? I don't. I don't know
if that. I hope that's not too harsh.
>> Dennis (09:01):
I don't think it is harsh. I, uh, mean, I.
But I think we're trying to bring this out
beyond just our denomination. Um,
and I think that there is a.
There's a concern. I think we're still operating
in a way that. When I
think especially mainline churches, but even just the church in general, I
(09:23):
think had more influence in our culture. And
people who were in powerful positions
listened to what the church had to say.
And I don't think that we are in that culture
anymore. Uh, even among people who
may agree with us that something like
(09:43):
Project 2025 is not a good thing. I
don't think they care whether the disciples of Christ
thinks that's a good idea.
Um, the question is,
what does that mean? And it's not that we
don't pay attention to what's going on in the
world, but, but I think the
way that we used to operate and I think you maybe
(10:06):
even shared this, you've been sharing a book that you've
been reading about the importance
of that, you know, want
to feel like we have to be heard in uh, our society.
And I think that way that we
do it might have worked
in the 70s and 80s. I just don't think it works
(10:27):
now.
>> Loren (10:29):
Yeah, the book is the Mixed Ecology. It's a new book coming out
from Shiley, Dwight, Shiley and
Pogue. Is that how you say it?
>> Dennis (10:39):
I, um, think so. I have a hard time trying to
pronounce his name.
>> Loren (10:46):
For sure. It's not saying, it's spelling it. That's very true.
Uh, I really appreciate their work and I followed
Dwight's work in the past,
but I'm trying to find the quote here now.
Oh yeah, it says political and social advocacy is another way in
which churches can operate from a Christian dumb, um, mindset.
Denominations and other church bodies make social statements
(11:08):
and pronouncements on various political issues
with the assumption they have moral credibility and will influence
the nation. So I thought it was very
fascinating and so many of, especially our more
progressive folks just railing against Christendom for good
reason.
>> Dennis (11:25):
Um, we still want Christendom, or at
least we act like.
>> Loren (11:29):
Yeah, right, right. So it's like we don't want it,
but in some ways we do want it.
Mhm.
>> Dennis (11:36):
Yeah. I mean, I think we,
what we don't want is, I think who
is running Christendom.
>> Loren (11:44):
Right.
>> Dennis (11:45):
And I think in this case it would be
more evangelical, especially Christian nationalists,
because we want to run Christendom.
And the whole point of this is it's
bad. It doesn't matter who's the
person running. It could be, uh, just a better
run Christendom. That doesn't make it. That's not the point.
(12:06):
And I think especially in our
culture now, not that
Christendom was ever really a good thing, but it really doesn't
work anymore because no one cares
about what we think. And
so then we have to think about what does that
mean and what does it mean then to operate as a
(12:26):
church in
culture with all the things that we're dealing with,
especially in our current time?
>> Loren (12:35):
Um, right.
>> Dennis (12:36):
And I think to me what's more important
is how are we being a
witness to Christ in our
time? And those
are Some of the things I think are more important that I want to
focus on and not, uh, necessarily.
Here's this statement that we can
all feel good that we just passed that
(12:58):
no one else cares about.
>> Loren (13:00):
Right. I mean, again, to be clear, like, neither one
of US Support Project
2025.
>> Dennis (13:06):
Nope. No.
>> Loren (13:09):
No.
>> Dennis (13:10):
It is bad.
So I guess one question that I have.
Um, having
you had your experience now in Memphis
and you've been there since Friday,
um, where do you
think General
assembly is going? And maybe to open
(13:33):
up to listeners who aren't disciple, but maybe
Presbyterian or Episcopalian or whatever.
Where do these gatherings go?
Um, you know, one of our
again and the other Jeff that we talk about, Jeff Mitchell,
um, has, ah, sometimes said that he thinks this is the last
General Assembly. I hope he's not
(13:54):
right, because I think that these things still. Still
have some value.
>> Loren (13:58):
Right.
>> Dennis (13:58):
But I think maybe where he's getting at
does have some, something. There's some value in what
he's saying. So what is the future
of this?
>> Loren (14:09):
I mean, obviously, like, you and I are not
insiders by any stretch.
M. That's probably obvious even already in our conversation.
Right? We're not insiders. I was
talking to a buddy here I'm, um, with. And
I guess there's. There's some rumors, there's some
conversation, some chatter around, um, Kansas city.
(14:30):
Because in
2027, I think that's. No,
I guess it'd be 28. Would it be the 60th anniversary?
M. Yeah. Yeah. The what the
you can say restructure.
>> Dennis (14:45):
Kind of when we became restructured denomination.
>> Loren (14:48):
Which I guess was in Kansas City. So to have it back in Kansas
City would make sense. There's also a
strong Disciples presence in Kansas. So I think
it makes sense, probably speaking, to focus on
having it in regions of the country where there's a strong single
presence.
>> Dennis (15:05):
It's also very centrally located.
>> Loren (15:08):
Right. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I
don't know, I
think Memphis. I don't know how, how it is for others because I live
in Denver. So it's, you know, it's not generally hard
for me to get out of, uh, Denver, the places. But I think
centrally located places with a strong Disciples presence
obviously kind of limits you to, you know, what,
(15:29):
Kansas City, Tennessee,
Louisville, I suppose Texas for sure
would be another.
Um, but
I guess broadly speaking, true point, like, I
always think there's value if, if, if anything for
this. Like when I was.
(15:50):
It's a Monday afternoon on Friday night when I was at the Denver
airport getting ready to get on the Plane,
you know, and I was of course spotted some
other Disciples clergy there and one of
them is working at a UCC church right now, United Church of Christ
Church. And this person was like, oh, it's so
much more fun to be at the Disciples General
(16:10):
assembly than the UCC Synod, which is
happening concurrent right now in Kansas City.
>> Dennis (16:16):
Kansas City, Yeah.
>> Loren (16:18):
So I think if even from that like you know,
they talk about often, I mean this is, this is the good and
bad. Right, Dennis? We'd agree like Disciples is like a
big family reunion. Mhm. That's good.
Except when you're like the adopted kid and then no one gives a
crap who you are.
Which I think, Dennis, you can. I can relate to.
>> Dennis (16:39):
Yeah.
>> Loren (16:42):
May, I'm being too cynical here, aren't I?
>> Dennis (16:44):
No, you're not. No, you're not.
I mean, I think that's one of the reasons I'm not there this year is
that.
>> Loren (16:52):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (16:54):
Especially last time and, and there were good points of
last year and, and 23 was weird for me
personally just because my mom was. Had
had a stroke and there was just a lot of uproar
and everything. Um, but it just did
not. I think one of the things that
was really has been always good about General assembly is
(17:15):
that it feels like a big old family reunion. And it
didn't like that.
>> Loren (17:19):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (17:20):
This time around. And so it kind of colored my
perception um, about
going this year because I just did not want to feel like
the red headed stepchild again.
>> Loren (17:32):
Right, right.
>> Dennis (17:33):
That is something I want to hopefully
recapture is that sense that
um, and this was in talking with another
disciple pastor that really we
can really kind
of recapture the breadth and depth of the denomination
and that you know,
(17:53):
that we are kind of a truly diverse
in many different ways. And to try
to bring that. Because I don't feel that we've.
I mean I don't know what it's like now in Memphis,
but when I was in Louisville I felt like that was lost.
>> Loren (18:10):
Well, let's talk about that if we can, because I think,
I think it's been very obvious
and this is something that I really appreciate. Like
last night thinking about this is like the Disciples are
very diverse from a
race and ethnicity part standpoint. And I
very much appreciate that. And I feel like GA
(18:32):
goes out of their way to highlight that in a good way.
>> Dennis (18:35):
And I, and I think, I think that's wonderful as uh,
speaking as uh, African American, I think that's great.
>> Loren (18:42):
But I'm thinking of again Jeff Gill's
substack in that he talked about not
necessarily being inclusive of
conservative or moderate voices. And I wonder how do
you. Like I was talking about this with a friend over lunch. Like,
how could. How could this be structured
in a way to be more inclusive of those other
(19:03):
perspectives theologically? Like, would it be like a
certain speaker, you know,
what are your thoughts?
>> Dennis (19:11):
I think part of it is. Is a certain speaker.
Um, but I also
think, you know, even there. There has to be some.
There has to be some give that, uh,
progressives don't get bent out of shape if a
conservative says something a little bit different
and vice versa.
>> Loren (19:31):
Right, Right.
>> Dennis (19:33):
Though I also kind of wonder, and this is,
this is actually speaking to something that I've experienced,
had just experienced and that you are going to experience,
um, through something called the Iowa Preachers Project.
And what I
learned from that experience, and it was a.
That group that I was in was made
(19:56):
up of people from both liberal and conservative
denominations, denominations that were more
gay, Frankie and others that weren't.
And yet we held together.
And I think what was centered,
central about that was the preaching and
the centrality of the gospel.
(20:18):
And I think that's something that has to be the
center. Center thing, the thing that
holds us together. Because I think
what is a problem in our. In the modern church today is
that as much as we may talk about Jesus or
all the time, we're really held
together by our ideologies. And this is not
a progressive problem or, uh, just a conservative
(20:40):
problem. Both.
>> Loren (20:42):
Yes.
>> Dennis (20:43):
And so I think if we want to be more
to have a wider breadth, it also means we
have to really change our reference. That it's not
about the things that we do,
but it's really about who are we centering it
on. And of course, um, I'm, um, centering
it on Christ and not on
(21:04):
whatever greatest progressive or conservative
piece of no statement that
we want to get out.
>> Loren (21:11):
Yeah. So for kicks and grins,
Dennis Ideate with me for a minute. Like, who would be
a speaker that would resonate with
conservative voices, conservative perspectives, who would
not be like, obviously you don't want to invite someone who's like off the
rails. But like
someone suggested, like Adam Hamilton.
(21:32):
Although is he middle of the road enough?
I think he like Carrie Newhoff, but
I don't know if he would come because he probably thinks he's too big of a deal.
>> Dennis (21:44):
I don't know. He's an interesting one.
Um, and. And I think
the. The added thing about Carrie Newhoff is that he
comes because he's Canadian. It's. It's Just a
totally different mindset.
>> Loren (21:58):
Right.
>> Dennis (21:59):
It's just kind of, you know, where do you kind of
put that? I mean, he's someone that I think would be
interesting.
Um,
Jason Mel, who
I've, you know, talked about is. Is also
a good one. Yeah.
>> Loren (22:18):
Who's. He's umc. Is that correct?
>> Dennis (22:19):
He's umc. Yep.
>> Loren (22:21):
Okay.
>> Dennis (22:24):
Um, trying to think though. Unfortunately
she's getting older and probably would. Traveling is an
issue. Is something like a Fleming Rutledge.
>> Loren (22:32):
Um, sure, sure.
>> Dennis (22:34):
I think.
>> Loren (22:34):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (22:36):
No, I would say in some ways
politically liberal, but. No.
Right.
>> Loren (22:42):
Very gospel centered.
>> Dennis (22:44):
Gospel centered and just. I think would just be great.
Uh, Will Williman is another one.
>> Loren (22:50):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (22:52):
Um, yeah, you know, it's not gonna.
Those names are not gonna please everyone, but
I think that they are.
There's enough in what they say that they
could bring people to the table and. Want to
hear something.
>> Loren (23:08):
Yeah.
>> Loren Richmond (23:09):
Cause I think.
>> Loren (23:10):
Who was I talking about? Oh, it was.
I was interviewing one of my. I
did another podcast this morning with Doug Poe, the
president of Phillips Seminary M.
It may release before or after this
conversation. But I, you know, I was asking him as
a, As a Methodist, what he thinks is
perspective of the General assembly. And I
(23:33):
told him this is similar to Methodism. But you know, the
thing that I really appreciate about the disciples tradition is that
like all, uh, are uh, welcome at the table
no matter if you're. No matter what. And I think
that was what pained me to read Jeff Gill's post
is like, well, gosh, it seems like
(23:54):
we're kind of setting up some barriers,
whether purposeful or accidental, that we're having
a big table here, but not everyone's here.
Mhm.
>> Dennis (24:04):
Yeah. I mean, I think that, that, that is
part of the, the issue. And,
and I mean I've seen it in the workshop.
One of the big things for me has always been the workshops
and.
>> Loren (24:17):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Dennis (24:18):
When I was in Des Moines in 2019,
um, there were a lot of good
workshops that were on the, you
know, for the local church
that when I went to
Louisville four years later, I
didn't find very much
(24:42):
that was sort of distressing.
Um, now there was a lot more on things like
activism and yeah, there
is a role for that, but I felt. It felt like that was the
only thing. And it's kind of like,
you know, are we talking about
helping people who may be interested in planting new
(25:02):
churches or are we talking about. But we want to
revitalize current churches?
Um, you know, there was a really good
workshop about
churches moving or Selling property, which
obviously I fell into that issue a few years
later. That was helpful.
>> Loren (25:20):
Yeah, I think I was in that workshop where
I think we didn't know each other back then, but I think I went
to that. At least one of those workshops, you know. Okay,
sounds interesting.
>> Dennis (25:30):
I mean, I think those things were also
helpful. And
I know Orlando, and I
think they may have brought some of that back, but Orlando, I
remember they were able to get Walter
Brudeman and have a really. It was some really
good Bible study in the morning,
(25:51):
um, of the day. Um, and that
was really good to see that,
um, things that I think help
people are, you know, just get
things for helping pastors, but even lay leaders to
that they can take and can
grow in their faith or be edified in their
(26:13):
faith. I think those are things that are important.
>> Loren (26:18):
Mhm.
We want to talk about our failed attempt at a
resolution, Dennis.
>> Dennis (26:25):
Oh God,
yes. Let's talk about it.
>> Loren (26:30):
Okay. I wasn't sure if I wanted to get that.
We've been hot take ish a little bit. So let's get really hot take ish,
right? Mhm.
>> Dennis (26:38):
No, I, I think we should talk about it because I think that that's important.
Um, and I, I
feel like it kind of fits
what's going on, what maybe
has been going on in the denomination.
So why don't you set us up and
then I can.
>> Loren (26:58):
So I can't remember if this was
your idea or my idea, Dennis, but
I remember at some point us talking and
me saying like, yeah, let's have.
Oh. Because I'd read Ben Crosby's Pro,
where he had made a similar subset. I don't know if
I can find the original subject, but about kind of
(27:18):
lamenting these, like we talked
about with Project 2025 is in his case the
Episcopal Church, like spending so much time at
their, their version of this,
creating resolutions that, uh, again, for, uh.
They're not much bigger than the disciples
when, you know, their, you know, ancient
(27:41):
similarities is on a vast, stark
decline. And his big timing was that we should
be more calm, spending more time on
renewal and revitalization and revival.
So I said maybe we should just make it.
Try to do a resolution on
fair and revival for 2025.
(28:04):
And boy, I did not
realize the
hoops that you have to go through to get.
>> Dennis (28:14):
Well. And I, uh. And you can explain
that there were, it seemed like there were a lot of hoops
that you had to go through in order for that
resolution to become a live
issue.
>> Loren (28:26):
Yeah, I was kind of surprised. Like I Had a
zoom with someone in the GMP
office. I won't say names,
but I had a zoom.
And nothing. Nothing
negative, but, you know, I had a zoom. And then we had,
like, I think another zoom. If I remember correctly. I could
be misremembering, but, you know, this is fine. And
(28:49):
I tried to. Try to be clear, like, this
is not me trying to be some, like,
evangel, evangelical conservative
breed. Like, I'm just trying to say, like.
Like we're. We're denomination decline. Like, and I believe
in our. Our tradition. Like, let's pray
for revival. And we just do that.
>> Dennis (29:14):
Yeah. And it just seemed like. I, uh,
think I remember that there had to be,
you know, all of
these ducks in a row on.
And it just didn't seem like there was just
that much of a. You know,
you kind of had hope that maybe
(29:36):
from the.
The office of the. Of the general minister that there would just
be kind of. Yeah, this is. This is good.
>> Loren (29:45):
All right, let's make this happen.
>> Dennis (29:46):
And it. Nope, this could not get
that to happen. And.
And I don't know why that was.
You know, it didn't seem like there was
interest for. And. And some.
I do wonder if there was some suspicion.
>> Loren (30:07):
Oh, I know there's suspicion. Like the. The zoom.
I felt like the first 20 minutes were me, like,
talking them down. Like, me being
like, this isn't what you think it is. This isn't what you think it is. This
isn't what you think it is.
>> Dennis (30:20):
You know, which is funny because even within
the. The resolution, it didn't. It's
not like it was some. That, you know,
we were making some kind of a, uh. Uh,
Christian nationalism or something.
>> Loren (30:34):
Right. Right.
Yeah. So, I mean, I think. I think two
observations I have, or.
One would. I would kind of second what you just
noted about kind of wishing there was more
fervor or alignment
from leadership around social media.
(30:57):
But two, you know, I think this kind of.
Is perhaps the detriment of this. This kind
of structure is like,
you know, it's hard to get something off the ground if you're just an outsider
and you don't have institutional power,
you know.
>> Dennis (31:14):
Yeah. And I think that
is part of the problem is that
if you have, uh, an interest in
things such as revival
or prayer,
there really isn't.
>> Loren (31:34):
A.
>> Dennis (31:34):
Constituency, it seems,
you know,
not in the same way as some of the constituencies would be
for other issues.
And so it's just. And I
think. I don't know, maybe it's just the way that our, uh,
(31:55):
society is Set up. Is that. So
if we don't say something that isn't explicitly
progressive, then it's immediately
viewed with suspicion.
So it just makes it hard and
very difficult for anything to move forward
because if it's not,
(32:18):
um, on, um, the side that you favor, then
we're just not going to trust it.
>> Loren (32:24):
And tell me what you think of this
too, Dennis. I'm wondering. You and I,
if I understand correctly, Right. We're both not, quote,
unquote, native disciples, right?
>> Dennis (32:35):
Yep. Yeah.
>> Loren (32:38):
You know, so even when I was at the airport
amongst this really, really handful of
folks traveling to ga it was like,
oh, I went to camp with you and you were. I was your
counselor when you were a teenager and you were
her counselor when she was a teenager. And
you know, that kind of, I, I, uh, it lends
(32:59):
itself to the, to the family
metaphor of the family reunion for good
reasons, but also
I think it's hard for folks to recognize who are
in that, like, how insular. Makes it towards
bringing new people into the fold.
>> Dennis (33:20):
Yeah, I feel the same way because
I think, um, our
camping ministry in the upper Midwest
is big. I mean, it's very important. It's a very
central part of the operations of, of
the region. And so
it can feel, at least for me, kind of outside of
(33:41):
it, because I didn't grow up in that. Um.
>> Loren (33:43):
Right. And so, and to be clear, like, this is great.
Yeah, great.
>> Dennis (33:48):
No one's putting it down.
>> Loren (33:49):
Nope. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Dennis (33:52):
But it, it does. There is a kind of a
outsider pull about that.
So.
But I think you
had talked about what might be
happening in a few years, that Kansas
City might be, um, where
(34:12):
we meet next. Um, one of
the things that has been a concern, and Jeff Gill
talks about this is cost.
>> Loren (34:22):
Yes.
>> Dennis (34:23):
Because registration
is really expensive now.
>> Loren (34:28):
Yeah.
>> Dennis (34:29):
If you are someone, and I used to in the past
would go to some of the dinners, those
are expensive. Uh, yeah,
it's just really costly
to do this. And, um,
as he was saying, it's hard when there isn't
a lot of. Where in the past
(34:51):
maybe, uh, a church would pay
people's way. They're not, for a lot of
reasons, doing that anymore. So
the question is, how do you bring down that cost? And I mean,
that's not a big theological issue, but it is a
practical issue.
>> Loren (35:08):
Well, I hope we're not being overly critical
here. Maybe we are. So my apologies
to listeners and especially disciple listeners if we're
all really critical. Like we're saying this. I,
I think, Dennis, you would second this. We're saying this out of like
deep care and appreciation for a tradition
and denomination that welcomed us. Mhm.
(35:28):
Um, but like even as I'm like I'm literally
here right now recording an exhibit hall
and like, you know, all the sponsors are
internal sponsors, which is fine.
But I'm also thinking to be the.
>> Dennis (35:42):
Case it needs to have a lot of outside exhibitors.
>> Loren (35:46):
And I'm thinking about even like how the structure of the,
of the layout of the exhibit hall is that
external visitors are all kind
of in the back corner.
And I feel like if anyone used to have flipped out
because like the big exhibitors,
like I won't say who they are, but we all know if you're disciples
(36:08):
and imagine in your tradition of the um, omnish, like
they know who the big exhibitors are. Like they're going
to draw people to them. So wouldn't
you rather to retain
and engage the external sponsors or
exhibitors have people have
to first encounter those outsiders
(36:29):
and then walk through those outsiders to
the big draws. To me that would make more
sense. Does that make sense? Mm,
mhm.
>> Dennis (36:39):
Yeah, I would agree. I think
there is this, you know, there's not a whole
lot, at least from what I remember the exhibit
hall in Louisville and it sounds like it's the same in
Memphis, that things
like that also need to change.
And I think in some ways to inspire because
(37:00):
it's a place where people hang out.
>> Loren (37:02):
Uh, right, because. And I think like
Vancouver church giving platform.
Right. And I'm looking at them, they're kind of like
buried off at a corner
and like we need more
like those are the kind of external
organizations when we think just about cost. We
(37:23):
need external church focused organizations like that to,
to keep coming and subsidize the cost
of this. And to do that, like we
need to flip the hall so that people first encounter
them. At minimum just walk by and see the
booth, um, and get some traffic.
So that makes it feel worth their time and money because
(37:43):
like the giant exhibitors that
we know who they are, like they're going to get like, I'll
just say the pension fund is going to get traffic. Like I'm looking
at the pension fund. Love the pension fund. Pension fund
is great. They're going to get traffic. And in fairness
to the pension fund, they're actually towards the back too.
But to my point, like
(38:06):
I would put, I would flip it just so again, we're
engaging external vendors
and making it worth their time for being here.
>> Dennis (38:15):
Mhm. Well, it used to be we would have
vendors such as Copesbury uh,
and that was a huge draw and we don't have that
anymore. And
you know, I still like to read
and read actual, uh, physical books. So
it would be nice if they had things like that because that
(38:36):
was something that you wanted to go to. You know, there were
people who sold, you know,
stoles or.
Um.
>> Loren (38:45):
Yeah, I mean they're all here. Yeah,
I'm again, I just think like those are the people who should
be.
>> Dennis (38:51):
Like front and center.
>> Loren (38:53):
Yeah, front and center. Because like I get,
I get like these denominational
ministries gave a lot of money and I want to honor
them, but they're gonna, they're gonna have a big
draw just because of who they are,
because of freestanding relationships.
So if we're gonna help these
(39:14):
kind of smaller
organizations continue to be attracted
on gain from being here,
let's get them as much traffic we can. If we're just thinking like practically
about managing costs, you know.
>> Dennis (39:30):
I agree.
I think though the question also is do we
need to have things taking
place like in a big convention center? SMEs
too. Could that be. And this is in a
hotel? Um, I don't know.
That's just something I'm not. I don't
(39:51):
do logistics like that.
>> Loren (39:52):
But I mean, I've wondered about this too. Is
there certainly there's hotels
that are pretty big. Like I've been at
conferences for untriculated, um,
work conferences that existed like the Gaylord
or convention. Like hotels of that
size that are pretty big
(40:13):
and can handle like I was in
Gaylord for a non church war conference and
there's like multiple conventions happening
at the hotel. And I wonder
like, could you get a deal there
to make it more manageable,
Pay your feud. You know, you're
(40:35):
booking so many rooms and they.
I don't know. I don't. I'm not a hospitality
expert, but I think these are the kind of
outside the box thoughts we need to think about for sure
to make this more manageable. And who
knows, maybe he's already being bounced
around.
>> Dennis (40:56):
So one question I have. Since you have been there,
I don't know if you've had an opportunity to go to any of the worship
experiences, um, at
night. What have those been like,
have they been good?
Inspiring. Oh my God,
horrible.
>> Loren (41:16):
I mean Bernice King was ah, an honor,
uh, humbling and honoring to just be a
part of that. Challenging to think
when she. This was a really inspiring story that should
be lifted up for. I was never aware of. But she
mentioned how this was pre. The.
The preamble, the official organization of the
(41:37):
denomination. But the year before,
uh, her father, Martin Luther King Jr. Had been invited to
speak at the gathering. Wow.
And it was going to be in Dallas. And
the city officials in Dallas said, hey, you should
not invite mlk. And it
was, uh, the leader was Fears. I don't. Can't remember his first
(42:00):
name or his position. Uh,
but Fear said, well, we're willing to take
it elsewhere. Which I think
is a pretty inspiring move,
you know, to say, like, we believe in
inclusion, and that's been part of our
history from the beginning. Like, I was pretty inspired to hear that.
(42:22):
Her message was very inspiring,
um, and powerful. You know,
I've very much appreciated being in.
In such a large body at worship. You know,
it's kind of like a mega M church on the road. So,
Steve. Uh, and that's been
often encouraging.
>> Dennis (42:44):
Okay, well, that's good to
hear. Uh, yeah, because
I think that those are kind of the important.
Of all the things that happen at a general assembly,
the worship services wouldn't matter.
Um, I think so.
>> Loren (43:02):
I think so.
>> Dennis (43:04):
And, um, I think that there have been, for me, some really good
experiences and some that
fell short.
>> Loren (43:12):
I mean, there's. There's been a couple of moments where I
kind of was wondering what's going on, and I
think that's kind of how these things are. You. Sometimes
they're trying to. You know, it's like a sermon. Sometimes you try
to do too much, right?
>> Dennis (43:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
>> Loren (43:30):
Too much in the sermon, too much in the worship service.
>> Dennis (43:37):
So I think maybe one final question that
I have is,
and this is kind of going back to Jeff's article,
is, where do you see
us as a denomination? Where is our
future headed?
>> Loren (43:55):
Wow.
>> Dennis (43:56):
I mean, you know, numbers are not great,
but that doesn't. I don't want to make it sound like that's,
you know, we're done, but.
>> Loren (44:06):
Well, I think what is continually
surprising and compelling,
shocking, is how much, like, there's still a lot of
institutional money. Like,
it's not everywhere.
Um, certainly some organizations or parts have more money than
others, but, like, there's still a lot of institutional money.
(44:29):
Like, there's still pockets of
vitality that are very inspiring.
Um, yeah, I mean, I think
it's my prayer that there would be
revival. And I think.
I think the only thing I can say is, like,
I've been reading voices about this and saying
(44:50):
that, like, we can't. We can't manufacture
revival. Like, we can just pray and hope that
when God moves, we recognize it and get on board.
Yep. So. So maybe that's maybe that's my
prayer. Is it like
a. That there would be revival
in our nation? That uh,
(45:11):
we would get on board and, and if
I can make a quick addendum to that too, like this is
something that I see
room, I see chatter
about in evangelical circles about they're happening in Bible
happening. And I wonder like, are we
missing out?
(45:33):
Mhm.
>> Dennis (45:34):
Well, I mean, I think that is interesting. If
you think a few years ago when that all was
happening in um. Asbury.
Asbury, there were some people that were
equally dismissive of it.
>> Loren (45:47):
And.
>> Dennis (45:50):
I think that there will always be people,
especially in mainline churches, that will be dismissive of
us. But I also think
there will be people, maybe not
large numbers, pockets, that
will be interested and that if there is
revival, that's kind of how I think it will happen.
Not in large big countries, but
(46:13):
in kind of pockets. And
I think that's what
to keep an eye out for and to have.
>> Loren (46:21):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis, I feel like we've done this before, either
you and I, or like
maybe I've done this with other guests, but I feel like we should just like say
a prayer for our
denomination and for our
nation and our, our
churches.
>> Dennis (46:42):
Yeah, I've done that before. You're keeping in good
company with our mutual friend Jeff Mitchell,
who I think always wants to end an interview
with prayer
that is not unusual. All
right, I'd be willing to do that if you like.
>> Loren (46:59):
Okay, go for it.
>> Dennis (47:00):
All right. God, we thank you for
gathering us here to chat and to talk.
And we do pray for revival
and not just within our
church, though that is needed, but within our nation
because it is sorely needed.
(47:22):
And importantly, give us the eyes to see
and the ears to hear when
that is happening. M. Give us the heart
to know when that might be moving within
us
and help us to be able to spread that good
news to those that we meet,
(47:42):
regardless of who they are. So that
your word, your love and your good news
might be proclaimed throughout the land.
In Jesus name we pray.
>> Loren (47:56):
Amen. Um, Amen.
Um, well, for my
podcast to close this out,
Dennis, may God's peace with.
>> Dennis (48:06):
You and ah, as the Lutherans
like to say, and also with you.
>> Loren Richmond (48:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love Christmas. Hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.
(48:38):
But before you go do us a favor. Subscribe to
the Pod to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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