April 15, 2025 • 54 mins
What does it mean to be the church in anxious, divided times? Recorded in connection with the 2025 Remind & Renew Conference at Phillips Seminary, Loren Richmond Jr. sits down with Rev. Dr. Susan Diamond to explore how local congregations can become spaces of healing, clarity, and radical welcome. Drawing from her work with moral injury, healing circles, and the Soul Repair After Moral Injury podcast (co-hosted with Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock), Susan shares how churches can recover the spiritual practices that root us in love, courage, and compassion. From forming faith through daily practices to fostering political and theological diversity under a shared mission, she offers a powerful testimony of what it means to be the church for this moment.
In this episode, you'll hear:
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What moral injury is and how it shows up in church, healthcare, and society
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How healing circles are transforming congregations from the inside out
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Why forming faith is essential before welcoming or serving others
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How to foster unity across political differences through mission clarity
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The role of spiritual direction and communal lament in healing
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A hopeful vision for the future of Christianity and leadership
Rev. Dr. Susan Ward Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Florence, Kentucky, where she has served since 2015. Susan received her Bachelor of Arts degree from Texas Christian University, a Master of Divinity degree from Brite Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio. Dr. Diamond has invested herself in ministry and mission through local, regional and general expressions of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the United States and Canada, throughout her 33 years of ordained ministry. She has served on the regional boards of the Florida and Alabama-Northwest Florida regions, directed numerous youth camps and conferences, and served as a keynote speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country. She has served her denomination as First Vice Moderator for the 2011-2013 biennium of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in the United States and Canada. During her sabbatical in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr. Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated on a pastoral study grant funded by the Louisville Institute entitled Moral Injury: A Catalyst for Reform. Following the study period, they have continued their work together to offer strategies to faith communities for providing support and healing for those suffering from moral distress and moral injury. They have recently launched the podcast Soul Repair: After Moral Injury. Susan and Rita are currently writing a book which they hope to publish soon.
Mentioned Resources:
🎙️ Rita Nakashima Brock's episode on Future Christian: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-vjamb-1871d36 🎙️ Soul Repair After Moral Injury Podcast (on all major platforms) 🌐 Florence Christian Church: florencechristian.org 📚 Coming Soon: A book on moral injury in the church (by Susan Diamond & Rita Nakashima Brock)
Presenting Sponsor:
Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.
Supporting Sponsors:
Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you!
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
Susan Ward diamond to the program.
Dr. Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in Florence,
Kentucky, where she has served since
2015. Susan received her Bachelor of
Arts degree from Texas Christian University,
(01:06):
a Master of Divinity degree from Bright Divinity
School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from
United Theological seminary in Dayton,
Ohio. Dr. Diamond has
invested herself in ministry and mission through
local, regional and general expressions of the
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United
States and Canada throughout her 30 throughout
(01:29):
33 years of ordained ministry,
she has served on the regional boards of the Florida
and Alabama Northwest Florida
regions, directed numerous youth camps
and conferences, and served as a keynote
speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country.
She has served her denomination as
First Vice Moderator for the
(01:51):
2011-2013 biennium of the
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States
and Canada. During her sabbatical
in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr.
Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated
on a pastoral study grant funded by the
Louisville Institute entitled
Moral A Catalyst for
(02:13):
Reform. Following the study period, they
have continued their work together to offer strategies to
faith communities for providing support and
healing for those suffering from moral distress and
moral injury. They have recently
launched the podcast Soul Repair After
Moral Injury. Susan and Rita are
(02:33):
currently writing a book which they hope to publish
soon. A reminder before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
share Future Christian with a friend. Connect
with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
Instagram. Send us an email at uh,
laurensonatemediapro
(02:54):
uh.com
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We are grateful for your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
of the church.
>> Loren (03:17):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
today. Reverend Dr. Susan Diamond. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Susan (03:27):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be
with you.
>> Loren (03:30):
Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Is there Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
you?
>> Susan (03:37):
Well, I was looking through my bio, um, and I
realized I didn't put anything about, you know, my kind of my
personal life. So I'll share a couple of things about those with
you because it's an interesting. It's interesting.
Um, so I have been married
to my husband Ron for 40, almost 46
years now. And I don't want anybody to do the
(03:58):
math, but I was a baby when we got married. Let's just say
that. Um, and the second thing
I would want listeners to know, um, about
my husband. He is a professional
entertainer, um, travels all over the U.S. uh,
and actually he's done some international work as well,
um, as a magician and stage
hypnotist.
>> Loren (04:19):
Wow.
>> Susan (04:19):
It's a very interesting combination to have a pastor,
a female pastor with her magician
husband. I get a lot of comments about
that. Um, but he's fantastic
in Entertainment for 50 years and
just, uh, is a great, ah, a great entertainer
and a wonderful husband. Um, also,
uh, one of the things that we love to do is travel. And,
(04:42):
um, so we do lots of cruising and we do lots of traveling
around the world. Um, we've been blessed to be able to do
that. And, um, we are proud
parents of a little miniature dachshund named
Bella. And she is, she's kind of
the light of our life. Hopefully you will not hear her barking. My husband
has orders to keep her quiet while we're doing
this.
>> Loren (05:03):
My. I have a bigger dog that likes to shove her head in
my lap intermittently during these
conversations.
Yeah, well, I want to talk cruising, but,
um, do you have a cruise coming up? I guess. Any big.
>> Susan (05:14):
I do, yes. In May, we are going on a
very short cruise. Uh, only five
days, but we're going to Cozumel and
Bimini on, uh, Virgin. It's the first
time we've. We've traveled on Virgin, but a lot of our friends have told us
how fun, how much fun it is. And, um, my
husband says he likes to go cruising because it gets me
away and nobody can get in touch with me.
(05:37):
Yeah, that was actually before
Internet became really Wi fi became
available. But we say nobody calls
while we're on a cruise. So it's a
good thing for, um, our relationship
and for my emotional health. Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (05:54):
You know, I was thinking about that because I did a cruise.
My parents took my family on a Disney
cruise some years ago. And I remember,
like, that was a real nice thing because I was not going to pay
for wifi because it's not cheap for
one on the cruise. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm. I guess. I
guess I'm going to have great boundaries here because no one could call me
Plug.
>> Susan (06:15):
Yes, indeed.
>> Loren (06:17):
Well, uh, share, if you would, just kind of about your faith journey, how
it, how it began, what it looks like today. And. And
uh.
>> Susan (06:24):
Yeah, well, it's changed a lot. I'll
just say that over. Over the time I have been
alive, I was raised in the Christian
faith. Um, I remember,
um, from a very, very early age asking.
And my grandmother had a big impact on my life.
Um, felt a sense of call.
(06:44):
Didn't know that that was called to pastoral ministry, which
is where I landed. But, um, I remember
when I was a senior in high school, you know, they had
the yearly youth Sunday event. And
so, uh, two of us, um, both
named Susan by the way, um, were asked to
do a little personal testimony. And I got
(07:05):
up and I said how easy it was to
be a Christian. And then my friend
Susan got up and she said how hard it
was to be a Christian.
>> Loren (07:14):
How interesting.
>> Susan (07:15):
And it was interesting. And I have learned
over the years that my friend Susan had it more,
More right than I did at the time. So,
um, you know, I know now that, uh, it's not
an easy thing to be a Christian. And I think even in
the climate that we're living in
now, uh, truly being a follower of
(07:36):
Christ and being a disciple
is very challenging and,
um, especially in the church today.
So, um, I know that's true, but,
ah, I think that's
really where I want to stop there. You know, I can go on and on
and on and talk about a spiritual journey that led
me into ministry. I was very, very
(07:58):
grateful for all the doors that opened to
me so that I would be able to pursue that,
um, especially by working as a church secretary
at Bright Divinity School. And one of the benefits of working
there was full tuition, husband and I to
finish our. We got married really early and
we dropped out of school. And then we were able to complete our
(08:18):
undergraduate degrees, um, based on
that. And then God had me. I say God
had me at Bright Divinity School working so that I could
see women going into ministry and then
opening the doors for me to do that. So I am
incredibly grateful for the journey and
all the changes, um, that have happened in my
life as I've been involved in this odd and wondrous
(08:40):
calling of ministry.
>> Loren (08:43):
Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Share if you're
willing.
>> Susan (08:46):
There's a book written by that title.
>> Loren (08:48):
Yeah, yeah. Share, if you're willing, any
thoughts on spiritual practices that are meaningful for you,
you're willing to share.
>> Susan (08:56):
Okay, so, um, let
me just say this. Uh, I was
at a meeting, it was a boundaries training meeting
with other ministers. I think there were probably a couple hundred
people and we were sit
roundtables because that very question was asked,
what do you do to take care of yourself
spiritually? What are the, what are the practices that you
(09:19):
do? And around this whole table everybody was
talking about, you know, oh, I get
up and I meditate and I go,
you know, I go for a run, I do this, I do that.
And when it got to me, I said, well,
every day I have a little bit of chocolate and a
little bit of wine. And those are spiritual
(09:40):
practices. But not, not only that, of
course. Um, I love
spending quiet time with God. I love
communing with nature, I love journaling,
I love, um, reflecting on stuff that I
read. Um, so these are daily
practices every single day, um, that I'm
(10:00):
involved in and really get a lot out of it.
Uh, I work with a spiritual director
and that's probably one of the most life changing things that I
have done in the last several years.
But, um, uh, she,
um, keeps me grounded and continues to ask
probing questions that I often, because of
(10:21):
the work that I do that focuses on everybody else, I don't focus
on myself as much. And so I have found
that to be quite rewarding.
>> Loren (10:30):
Yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing all that.
Well, we're here to talk with Susan today,
sort of as an extension of the
Remind and Renew conference that took place in Phillips
Seminary. I was pleased to be there in person
and got to speak with Susan's uh,
co speaker. What would be the word, one of your
(10:51):
colleagues?
>> Susan (10:52):
Yes, Dr. Uh, Rita Nakashima
Brock, who we co host a, uh,
podcast, a limited podcast. And we've done some
work on moral injury over the years.
>> Loren (11:03):
So the Phillips Seminary reminded Renew conference
this year was centered on the theme
of seeking wisdom and
understanding in troubling times.
And with my conversation
with Dr. Brock, we kind of just talked through
that theme. And I kind of wanted to do the same
thing here today. Obviously, as I mentioned,
(11:25):
ah, before we started recording, I think this is important.
This will air sometime after,
obviously, as we are already past it. But when I
recorded with Dr. Brock, we were just before
the presidential inauguration. Now we are,
we're into it and this will be aired, you
know, some weeks or perhaps months after.
(11:46):
So I think in many ways that's Shifted,
um, the national mood in some ways.
So I want to start with. So I want to start with
this. Um, let's
reflect, if you can, as you
think about troubling times.
You're a pastor. You've been leading a
(12:07):
church community for many years.
What, uh, have you seen that's
perhaps unique about our current
context? What do you think is the same?
What are you seeing, perhaps, in your congregants that
feels different? Share. Feel free to
respond to what strikes you.
>> Susan (12:28):
Yeah, I was,
um. I was just thinking
about that. I was, uh. Earlier today,
I, uh, was getting, um, off on Fridays,
and so I was getting all my chores done, uh, personal
chores done, and one of them was getting my nails done. That's
my guilty pleasure, you know, kind of thing. But,
um, the person who owns the nail
(12:50):
salon is from Cambodia,
and nobody was in the. This was
interesting. Nobody was in there except the two of us.
And she's been my nail, um,
person for a long time. And
she was talking with me about,
um, uh,
(13:10):
our governor, actually, in Kentucky is Andy
Brashear, who is part of our
denomination, uh, Christian Church Disciples of Christ. Shout
out. She brought him up as somebody
who really cares about people.
>> Loren (13:24):
Yeah.
>> Susan (13:24):
And, um, and she said, I'm so thankful
for he. He cares about me.
And I said, yes, he does. And I know him
personally, and he is a man of faith, and he
really. He really believes that each human being
is worthy of dignity and. And
respect. And she, um, said,
I'm just. I'm just unrattled
(13:47):
right now because I feel like I'm not
safe.
>> Loren (13:50):
Yeah.
>> Susan (13:51):
And she said, um, well, she
was robbed a couple of months ago from
home, and there's not been as many
people coming in the nail salon. So she's worried about.
She's worried about her business, but she's also
worried about, uh, people like
herself that come from a different ethnicity that may be
targeted in some way. She's totally
(14:13):
legally here in the United States. She
said, I understand getting people who are dangerous
off the streets. She said, but
this is not good. Um, this is not the kind
of America that I thought I was coming to.
And, um, so I
took some time just to be with her,
(14:34):
to affirm her and
in our local congregation. As a pastor
of this congregation, which is an
amazing, amazing, um, congregation
been in existence for almost 200
years, um, @ the
beginning of the Stone Campbell movement. And,
um, 1831 actually was when it was established. Uh,
(14:57):
but the church's DNA
has always been. Always been
about serving the community. And
so we are Involved, um, in some
amazing kinds of ministries, um,
to people who are marginalized,
um, the unhoused. We have a shower
ministry, um, that goes on with them,
(15:19):
um, with those that are,
um, food insecure. We have a 247
outdoor pantry as well as a huge
distribution a couple times a month that we make,
um, we have a health clinic, um, once a month that
goes on with, um. But we have lots of community
partners, nonprofit community partners,
um, that make these, um, ministries
(15:41):
possible. And, um, there is
anxiety about all of
the, you know, all the cuts that are being made. We are
grant generated and a lot of the partners that we
work with are grant generated. And
we're concerned for the least of
these, um, because our
(16:02):
little church, um, which
operates a big. A big ministry, um,
is not able to do that on. On tithes and
offerings. Yeah. And so we
are, um. I think there's a lot of concern about
that. Our congregation is a
diverse community. Um, we do not
all think the same way. We are not all on
(16:24):
the same political persuasion.
Um, and yet we are very, very
clear about the kind of mission that we have
that we're called to. And
so these are all challenging times
that we're living in. And as I said to, uh,
Rita shortly after the
election that I think that, uh, even before
(16:47):
we saw what's happened since the inaugur,
um, that we have our work cut out for us as we are
looking toward the future, um,
with moral, uh, injury
happening in lots of different ways.
>> Loren (17:02):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all that.
I'm struck by kind of what you said, and I'm going to get his
name wrong. So forgive me. And disciples of Christ
at large, forgive me. Bashir. Bashar.
>> Susan (17:14):
Bashir.
>> Loren (17:15):
Bashir. Okay, Governor
Bashir. Yes, I think
that's striking. What you shared,
how he's being perceived, is that he cares about
other people. I think we're. I feel like.
I think what's most troubling to me
about our current time and place is it feels
(17:36):
like caring for people is, like, considered.
I mean, in some circles, folks are saying
empathy is a sin, which is, I mean,
mind bogglingly preposterous.
And I'm also struck by what you shared about your
church. You said, if I heard you
correctly, your church is not a church that they all vote
(17:58):
the same way, but they have agreed, uh, to
be clear on mission and service to
others, which, again, I think is
striking. So do you want to share more
about, um, how that, that kind of
ethos has come to be and how you've helped foster that.
>> Susan (18:13):
Thanks for asking that question because I think it's an important
one. Um, I have been ah,
lead pastor at Florence christian now for 10 years
and when we came to the
church, um,
uh, we
recognized pretty quickly that the church uh,
had gone through a time of
(18:36):
questioning uh, what their existence was about and that kind of
thing. So we really worked very, on the
first year to 18 months on
mission to get clarity about
what it was that God was calling us to be and
do and our why, what
was our reason for existence. We also
developed a set of core values that
(18:58):
guide us. Uh, so our mission is that
we celebrate God's welcome table of abundant
love, grace and acceptance. Um,
it's the. It's just the ethos
that we live out of and um, so that
has opened the doors really wide
to a great diversity of people
(19:19):
coming in that they, you know, they're welcome, they're
received, they're loved and um, we
really embrace that. Um, the core
values that we have are to welcome
radically and serve
boldly and form faith every
day. Um, we cannot do
the first two unless we are forming our faith.
(19:41):
And that is the well out of which we can
welcome radically without um,
barriers to people, no matter where they come from.
If we've got somebody who's in our shower ministry
that um, has come in,
comes into the church, they're just as much a part of our family
as anybody else. Um, we became
open and affirming that that whole thing led us to
(20:04):
the LBGTQ community to open right our
doors as well as people who
are maybe more conservative
politically and everybody has a place
at the table and um,
so we live by those core values.
We live by that mission and that
has informed how we have developed the ministries
(20:27):
that we've been involved in. Now we've had a major
childcare ministry for over 40 years,
um, one of the largest in Kentucky,
um, nonprofit. We have
recovery, uh, groups that meet. Those were all going on
before we came. But the food ministries, the homeless
ministries, um,
(20:48):
um, we have 40 community partners
that um, provide services so that when somebody comes
to get a shower or get food from us, that we have
ways of connecting them with resources that will
help them to m, move out of um,
homelessness into you know,
um, what we would consider more
um, stable, uh living.
(21:11):
And um. And so they
come to, they come to our place,
these community partners and we connect
them with each other. So um, there's
lots and lots of partnerships. We do not, when
we serve 15, uh, hundred people through
our food ministry distribution twice a
(21:31):
month um, we open, uh, that
opportunity for service to anybody who
wants to help us. And that's the
only way we could do what we do is through
recognizing our partnerships with each other.
>> Loren (21:45):
Yeah.
So I'm thinking about this. You've been at your church, you said,
10 years thereabouts. Right. I mean, that's a long time.
I'm sure you've seen your fair share
of conflict and division in the church as much
as you've tried to try
to lead. Well, I'm curious again, as we think
about troubling times.
(22:07):
Even if you want to reflect on your own, within your
own community, there are troubling times within your own community.
How have those values and being
clear on mission helped? Because I feel like
this is. I feel like in many ways this is kind of what is a
big, humongous divide.
Divide is not the right word. But barrier. I don't know what the right word is in
(22:27):
our nation is. There's no kind of clear
moral guidelines about what should direct
our actions in future. How is. How have you
seen those clear mission and clear values
help lead your community through
conflict and division?
>> Susan (22:42):
Yeah. And I want to say, um, I did
a leadership, uh, thing on
conflict because, uh, George, uh,
Bullard, uh, wrote a book called Every
Congregation Needs a Little Conflict because
conflict actually provides the opportunity
for growth to happen. And
I love, to use the metaphor of a butterfly,
(23:05):
um, has. Starts as a caterpillar is
in a cocoon and has to fight to get
out of that cocoon. And that fight is
what provides the wings
to fly. And if you cut that,
if you don't. If you don't go through.
Will never develop its wings. And so,
(23:25):
um, we. We certainly have had conflict.
And I would say one of the. One of the challenges.
And we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later too.
Um, I think for the North American church, and probably
churches all the world is. When we went
through Covid, it changed
us. And there's. And it. It
(23:46):
decreased our size. And it was,
you know, we. We still have lots of people
who join us on Sunday mornings, and we don't see them at
church.
>> Loren (23:55):
Right.
>> Susan (23:55):
And. And there are things that have
happened. Um, there are
troubling things that have happened as a result of
that. Um, a couple of things on both
sides. So for the people who are staying at
home, there's this disconnect in
some ways, um, and loneliness,
um, that doesn't happen when
(24:18):
you. Hopefully when you're gathering in small groups at
least, and connecting with each other in
person. Um, it Also
has meant, ah, uh,
decreasing in sizes of giving and
those kinds of things which have created,
um, the challenges that we're
facing. What we try to do is to be nimble with that
(24:40):
and to say, okay, God, what
is it that we can do? Are there things that we need
to, um, let go of so that we can take on
something different? Um,
and that's the. I would say that's a
huge challenge for us. Um,
but not to be afraid of conflict.
And we certainly have, uh. We've gotten in.
(25:02):
What, uh, what was his name? Uh,
John. Good Trouble.
I'm having a meeting.
>> Loren (25:09):
Oh, yeah, I can't think of the.
>> Susan (25:11):
Author either, but yeah, from Georgia. From Georgia.
Yeah. He passed away. But yeah, we've gotten into some good
trouble. John Lewis. John Lewis. Thank
you.
>> Loren (25:20):
Yeah.
>> Susan (25:21):
Yeah, we've gotten into good trouble
before with, um, you know, uh,
last year we had very, very
dangerous cold weather. We've had it again this year.
Um, and we wanted to offer
space for people to
come in out of the cold. And we were
(25:41):
told we were not zoned to do that. You know, and
so we've been. We've been struggling, um, with
our. Our, uh, city and county
to. To find ways to work together so
that no one dies.
>> Loren (25:55):
Yeah.
>> Susan (25:56):
That there are. There are ways in which we can
work together on that. And that is continuing to be
a struggle for us. Um,
and part of. I think it's
just part of the cost of discipleship too.
Right.
>> Loren (26:11):
Yeah. And I appreciate you say that. This idea
of a good conflict. Because I think there can be this sense
of we want to avoid conflict at all costs. And
I think getting to the
broader picture, I feel like that's been somewhat problematic
about our culture at large.
Right. It's, uh, almost like this. This. Like we
(26:32):
can't ever talk about anything controversial. Like we can't talk religion,
can't have politics. And then it comes to the point where,
like, when it does come out, it's just like all anger and vitriol
because it's kind of these blowing the top type
conversations is that.
>> Susan (26:44):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
And I. I think
we are, especially in the church
where we love. We want to
be unified. And
so sometimes we avoid those hard
conversations. And I am certainly.
I'm a two on the Enneagram, so I'm a people pleaser. And I'm wanting
(27:06):
everybody to, uh, love me. So
that's one of the challenges that I have had a personal
growth over my life is to find ways
of being in conversation and even in
conflict. Um, in healthy ways
so that we can. Can find
commonalities, we can respect each
(27:26):
other, and we can grow.
All of us can grow through doing that.
>> Loren (27:32):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I
appreciate you sharing that.
I want to kind of shift gears here toward the
seeking wisdom and understanding. But I'm curious.
You mentioned those three core values of welcoming, serving,
and forming. But what struck
me as, uh, most interesting is you said
your church can't welcome and serve before they're
(27:54):
formed. I want to hear more about that.
>> Susan (27:57):
Yeah, I want to. So. And this is where
we, uh, our church has that service
DNA. They love. They absolutely love
service. In fact, we end our worship services
every single week with the mantra,
the worship is over. Now the service begins. And
so we say that, uh, you know, the
(28:17):
worship leader, or I will say, the worship is over and the
people shout it out. Now the service begins.
>> Loren (28:22):
That's great.
>> Susan (28:23):
The weak link for many people
is that they're so much into
service or so much into social justice or so
much that, uh, not having the
faith balance, the forming faith every
day and that kind of thing,
it makes us lopsided. And so,
(28:44):
uh, what I want to say to folks, and we just did a
series on shalom, finding shalom, that it
begins with finding peace with God.
Then we find peace with ourselves. And
only after we find peace with God and peace with
ourselves can we find peace with each other.
And so out of that, think about,
(29:04):
think about that in terms of conflict.
Because many times when we get. When we have
differences of opinion, we want to
preserve, you know, or put
our opinion out there as the right
one. And, um,
when we have done that work ahead of time, when I meet
with somebody that I don't know,
(29:26):
it makes me at least be
mindful that this is another human being
loved by God beyond measure,
created in the image of God. And even
though I might disagree
with every single thing that person says, they
still have value, they still have
dignity. And, um, I need to
(29:48):
treat them that way. Um, so,
yeah, that's what I mean when I talk about forming
faith every day, is that
spirituality has, uh,
to be the center of where we come
from.
>> Loren (30:03):
Yeah, I'm appreciating that for two reasons. One is I
kind of reflect on the state
of young men in our nation
and how so many kind of moving hard,
right? And
as I reflect as the next generation of men,
I want better for them. And I'm thinking
a so many of them, I feel like, were the ones who were kind of
(30:25):
marching in the Black Lives Matter. 4,
5, 6, whatever that was years ago.
And it seems like without a foundation, they
have been kind of swayed. Otherwise
opposite. And then two. I think the other thing that
I imagine you can agree with is I think
without kind of, like you said, that foundation of
this is an image of God
(30:47):
bearer. There can be this kind of like, win at
all costs mentality. I mean, I just saw
this, this video this morning of some. Someone
who's famous going viral on YouTube for
like, being mean to conservatives.
Like, like. And I'm just like, what. What are we doing here? Like, how
is that going to win anybody over?
>> Susan (31:06):
It will not. It will not.
>> Loren (31:10):
Yeah.
>> Susan (31:11):
And we have to realize,
I mean, and I don't even think even when Jesus was being
critical of others,
especially the religious leaders who thought they had it all
together, um,
I don't think he acted ever out of
a disrespect for
(31:31):
humanity or their
humanness. I mean,
I think my interpretation of
what he did was always, always about getting people
to understand that living
in relationship with God, relationship with each
others has to be based on
love.
>> Loren (31:53):
Do you think that's. I mean, do you think you. I'm, um, writing down the
words living in relationship, relation,
ship, trying to spell that here. Do you
think that's like, do you think that's an essential
element of it, is living in relationship with
people? Because again, I'm going back to your church, your
church community. Like, like you said, you have people in relationship
(32:14):
with one another who may vote differently, but, uh,
because they are in relationship with one another, they have a
common mission to serve and love others.
>> Susan (32:23):
Yes. It's all about
my understanding of the
gospel, of the
Christian life. Discipleship. That
is it. That is the basis of it.
And love is expressed through respect.
And I can challenge someone and
(32:45):
respect them at the same time as a
person.
And we can have, uh. I can have
a conversation. I'm thinking about a couple people in my
congregation who. We are very much
on different sides of the political spectrum
and we love each other. And I can have a
conversation with them and ask them questions
(33:07):
and let them ask me questions.
>> Loren (33:10):
Yeah.
>> Susan (33:11):
Why, why do you. Yeah, tell me more
about where you are coming from so I can
understand, um, Stephen Covey and the
seven habits of Hol. Effective people says, seek first to
understand, then be understood.
Um, and I think that that is really, really
key. Um, and that
(33:31):
kind of, um, in terms of the work that Rita
and I are doing kind of fits
in with that. Um, because
part, uh, of what we do with moral injury work
is, uh, focus on
listening Listening rather than
fixing the other person
to listen well. And
(33:54):
um, you were able to experience a little bit of
that, um, at the Renew and Remind
conference through our fishbowl experience.
But when I have healing circles in my
congregation, uh, which we've had several of them
over the years, one of the things that I
keep being amazed by is,
(34:14):
is uh, in
congregations most of the
time you think about um, people who come to
worship. How you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. How are
you doing? You know, it's this little, little thing.
And um, very rarely
will people take the time to be
(34:36):
transparent, um, maybe about how they're really
doing. So in
these healing circles that we have done as a pilot
project of
um, how to
heal, uh, from moral injury,
um, we um, are very, very
(34:56):
cognizant that we tend not to
listen. Well, yeah, because
we're thinking about the next thing we want to say to that
person. And so, so
in the healing circle you do not get to
speak, you do not get to refer to what
somebody else has said. You only speak your thing,
(35:17):
your truth. And as you're
listening in the rest of the
circle, the um, non
verbal affirmation of putting your hand
over your heart, nodding your head,
doing those things, you are
focusing on that person and they are feeling hurt. But
the beautiful thing for me, as one
(35:38):
who tends not to listen very well, I'm thinking about that
next thing I want to say to you, um, but it
gives me that space to
listen and to recognize
the image of God in that other person that's
sharing a really hard thing and
um, being able to empathize with where they
are.
>> Loren (36:00):
I want to stay on. This is sort of off topic,
but I think it fits in. I want to stay on this healing
circle, uh, because Susan
is describing something that they led
at Remind and Renew, kind of, kind of put into
practice a healing circle. So maybe, I
guess real quick, just describe it. But what I want
(36:20):
to come back to is. So just real quick describe like the, the
ins and outs of it and then I want a follow up question.
>> Susan (36:26):
Right. So let me just say that
we developed. I've developed
this project out of a sabbatical
project that I had with the Louisville Institute,
um, entitled, um, Moral
Injury A Catalyst for Reform.
And the idea was, um, for those of
(36:46):
us who have
a working definition of moral injury, um,
it is very, very. Rita
will define it much better than I do,
but um, the way that I describe moral injury is
participating or witnessing
something that happens that takes us beyond our
moral compass, that
(37:08):
creates harm and so
um, we know this
veterans um, come back from war, they've been
commanded to do something like kill a non combatant or
they've had um, you know, they come back with
survivor guilt or whatever it is, but it is a
moral injury that often they don't
talk about with anyone else. It leads to a higher
(37:31):
rate of suicide. And then during
COVID we saw this breaking out
in the general population,
um, because doctors were having to make decisions about
who was going to go on life support and who wasn't.
And families were not able to be with their loved ones
when they were dying. And pastors were not
able to go into hospitals and hold the hand of somebody who was
(37:53):
dying. I mean all of us had
this distress and injury that it
was going on. So part of my project
was to look at the healing
ministry of Jesus as a metaphor for
leading us out of this moral
injury. And so
(38:13):
uh, where churches in the United States have focused so much
on church growth and those kinds of things,
what I wanted to say is maybe this is
a time in which the church is being called back to
healing ministry. Healing
ministry. And so we
developed these what we called healing circles.
We call them also talking circles or we call them
(38:36):
soul repair circles. They're all the same.
Um, and I really benefited from um,
Rita and what she was doing with the
Volunteers of America online program as
well as another um, circle
ministry out of ah, with a UCC
pastor. Retired pastor up in Northern
Ohio, had been working with veterans
(38:58):
for 15 years at the time and um,
so learning from them
but to create something that would be
um, an opportunity for people to come in
and talk about that
stuff. So creating a circle, very
ritualized, everything is
um, prayed over before a group
(39:21):
walks into a room and it's all set up in a certain
way and we have symbols in
the um, in the room
and um, we might have a cross, we might
have a shell, um,
that we put anointing oil in. And people can anoint themselves.
So it's just you know, creating that space.
(39:42):
And um, when people come in they have to be
quiet and they have to listen. And we have
a stone that we allow people
to um, hold and tell their
story. There will usually be a prompt at the
beginning of the session.
So I might ask, I um, might
ask someone or everyone to write, take
(40:04):
7 minutes, 10 minutes to write down, write a
letter to someone who they have unfinished,
uh, emotional business with. That's one of the prompts that
we using. And it's powerful.
Yeah, um, because a lot of
times and trying to use different
ways, um, with the senses and different ways to get people
in touch with what's going on in their soul.
(40:27):
Um, but one of the things that I love about
healing circles is it gives permission.
And you would be
amazed at what people will share
in an environment that is confidential,
that is, um, that nothing
that is shared is off limits.
They can share whatever they want to share, and
(40:50):
they're fully acceptable.
>> Loren (40:51):
It.
>> Susan (40:53):
It's powerful. And, um. And people in our
congregation. I have one. One guy who came in who had
been, um, so much trauma
in his childhood, and he's probably in his
early 40s in. In therapy and has had lots
and lots of. Of trauma that he's
experienced. And he told me
(41:13):
after being in a healing, he got more out of being in a
healing circle than in all of the years
that he'd been in there. Therapy, which is amazing to
me.
>> Loren (41:22):
Yeah.
>> Susan (41:23):
Um, and truly a work of the spirit.
>> Loren (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Susan (41:26):
So anyway, we. What we're doing at
this point is trying to help other congregations to
know that, um, you know, these
are tools we can provide. And
hopefully, um, uh, lay
people in the congregation lead these. I don't lead
them. Um, so it's not one more thing on the pastor's
plate to do that.
>> Loren (41:46):
Right.
>> Susan (41:47):
To equip the lay people to do that
ministry.
>> Loren (41:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's such an important
tool. Things like this for a.
Like, practically speaking, like, it doesn't have to just be the
pastor and empowering lay folks, but creating
spaces for understanding and wisdom
communally. You know, I was remembering
when you led this in
Tulsa. I think that if I'm remembering
(42:13):
correctly, the prompt was on a Habakkuk text.
Do you remember the text? Text?
>> Susan (42:18):
Yeah, it was a. It was a lament from
Hank, Chapter three, I think. I can't
remember right now, but it. You know, even though the
leaves wither and the. I mean, it's kind of like, I will
trust in you, oh, God. I mean, no matter. No matter what
happens in my life
and how bad things may seem, I.
(42:38):
Yet I will trust in you, and I will, you
know, I will be yours, you know,
kind of thing. And so it was an opportunity for
people to think about the things, um, that. That they're
lamenting at the moment. And, you know,
so many times, um, in my
ministry, people have said, I can't be
(42:58):
angry with God.
>> Loren (43:00):
Right.
>> Susan (43:00):
Angry with God. And, um, you know,
so I had this recently. My spiritual
director asked me to do something on feelings. And
I'm this person most of the time,
but I'M also this person some of the time
for listeners.
>> Loren (43:17):
There's a bright sun and then a red, angry
sun.
>> Susan (43:20):
Red, angry sun. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (43:22):
And.
>> Susan (43:22):
And the thing about it is, scripture says
it's okay.
>> Loren (43:27):
Yeah.
>> Susan (43:27):
To complain. It is okay to tell
God, because God's got, you
know, got the capacity to take all of m.
That. And, um. And it's not a statement
of lack of faith in God. It's a great
statement of faith in God when we bring
our injuries and in our troubles
to God. Um, so, yeah, I
(43:50):
keep this up. I keep this up here in my office to kind of,
you know, do a little. Little, uh, inventory of myself
from time to time, just to say, hey,
you know, I don't always. I'm not always going to be up. And that
is okay.
>> Loren (44:03):
Yeah. And I think, uh, well, meant is such
an important and neglected tool. And I'm just thinking,
like, I was just an
observer for that healing circle and was listening to
Rebecca, excuse me, the Habakkuk text, and
folks kind of interpreting that accordingly. And
then a few weeks later, I was leading a small group at my
(44:23):
church, and we were talking about joy and
the Philippians text and the kind of
the paradox of finding joy in the midst of
challenge. And I remember the Habakkuk text, and I
kind of, like, right then and there was kind
of demonstrating it for the group. Uh, even though my commute was
terrible, even though it's all this.
(44:43):
And it was powerful for me even just to say that. And I
think similarly for folks to hear
that, and it's just such a wonderful
example. Um, well,
I'm grateful for this conversation. We do need to take a break
and come back with some closing questions. So let's take a quick
break, and we'll come back with some closing questions.
(45:06):
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. Susan
Diamond. Thank you so much for this conversation.
And, uh, I feel like we need to have, like. I feel like you need to send me,
like, an image of the happy and mad son for the
show notes. Okay, we'll do
that for those who just listen and
may want to see it. Um, okay. These closing
(45:26):
questions always. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously or
not as you'd like to. If you're a pope for a day,
what do you want to do?
>> Susan (45:35):
Okay, so, duh,
talk to any female minister. I think they would say
ordination of priests, Women priests, for
sure. Yeah, absolutely. I guess if I got
to be the Pope, that would already be a done thing. But,
uh, just saying, maybe you're the first.
>> Loren (45:54):
Maybe you're the first, um, a
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life.
>> Susan (46:01):
Yeah. Dietrich, uh. Bonhoeffer.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I have always been
fascinated with him, um, both
for his, um, incredible
faith and, uh,
insight into what does it mean to
be,
uh, the community of
(46:23):
faith, the confessing community,
um, and his courage
that he had to stand up against
Hitler. Um,
and I've also been fascinated with, you
know, his. Because I consider myself a
pacifist and I, uh, you know, that.
(46:44):
What was it? I really want to understand what
led him into being a part of
the, you know, the resistance to the book that he was involved
in conversations about assassination. You know,
I just. Yeah, I would really love to have a
conversation with him. I love his work, his. His
books. Uh, the Cost of Discipleship
(47:04):
is one of them. And the one on Community, I think,
is Excell. Excellent as well. Yeah, yeah.
I'd like. I'd like talk to Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
>> Loren (47:12):
Well, here's a loaded question if ever there was one. What
do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Susan (47:20):
Yep. Um, lots of
fear, lots of anxiety over
the future. Um, and I think,
uh, I'm getting closer to
retirement. Um, and of course,
you know, wondering what the future will look
like for someone like me. Um, so,
(47:40):
personally, nationally, globally,
um, you know, we're in the midst of great climate
change and all of those things, so I think,
um, you know, there's. I think fear and anxiety
over the future is really
palpable right now. Right.
Yeah.
>> Loren (47:58):
Well, let's end on something.
>> Susan (48:00):
Like I said, like I said about Rita, you know, talking with
Rita about this, I think that there's going to be a
lot of work for us to do. Um,
and I hope that we. That we will be able to do
it, um, with regard to moral injury,
because I think that's going to be part of it.
>> Loren (48:16):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, let's end on something
more positive. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Susan (48:24):
Okay. I think I
hope at least three
things.
>> Loren (48:30):
Yeah.
>> Susan (48:31):
The first would be to remember who
we are as human beings.
And we talked a little bit about that, um,
with regard to being created in the image
of God, beloved by God, and
what love actually calls us to as
followers of Jesus. So, um, when you
say, um, you know, people
(48:53):
even, you know, we see in the church this
division that has happened in a making of
enemies based on things that should
not, uh, that should not be.
Um. And so how can, uh,
as followers of Christ,
um, how can we move into the
future with the values
(49:16):
of Christ, Uh, the core values
of Christ, which is all about love.
And, you know, and I don't. I don't mean the kind of
love that's the feel good love. I'm talking about the love that's
the hard kind of love. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (49:31):
You've been married 46 years. You know something about hard love,
right?
>> Susan (49:34):
I do. And, you know, here's. Okay, I'm going to tell
you all this. This is great. My,
um. Probably 20 years ago,
I remember one of my aunts saying to
me that as, um, she and
her husband had been married
longer, that a different kind of
love emerged. And it was
(49:56):
a. It was good. And I have to say, I have
to say now I'm more in love with my husband now than I have
ever been. And it's a different kind of love, and it's a
deeper. And, um, so that gives
me hope, um, you know, not just for
my relationship with him, but as we
focus on love, what, the
hard stuff, um, how does that bring
(50:19):
out about God's good in the world? So
that's one thing. Um,
the other is, let's see, three
things. Okay. Um. Yeah, so we talked about
renewing the ministry of healing, healing in the church.
This. One of the things my hope for the future of
Christianity is, is, you know,
um, how do we move
(50:40):
from church, uh, growth,
which I understand, we want more people to know
Christ. And we. If we're doing the things
that we have, the values that Christ has,
so. Sorry.
>> Loren (50:53):
It's okay.
>> Susan (50:54):
I was trying to stop that.
Okay, I'm gonna turn it. Silenced
on my phone. Apparently it synced with my
computer, but the sec. Yeah, yeah. The second
thing is, uh, renewing a ministry of healing. And
then, um, as. As I am
preparing over the next few years to
(51:15):
retire, um, one of my. One of
my real heart's desires and passions
is, um, that God will call new
spiritual leaders the
church. And I have. I mean, I know that
seminary enrollment's down, and I just. I just
pray that God will bring the right
(51:35):
people to ministry
because it's a wonderful. It is a
wonderful, hard,
um, fantastic
life. I have really loved what I have
done. And, um, yeah, there have been lots of
times of tears, and there's been lots of times of struggle,
struggles. But overall, you know,
(51:57):
I'm so thankful for the call to ministry
that God's given me. So, um, I'm
praying for new spiritual leaders to come in that have
a heart for God and, you know,
um, are really about the values,
the core values of Jesus Christ.
>> Loren (52:13):
Yeah. Awesome.
Well, you have a podcast, right? Uh,
where can folks connect with you and the podcast? All the. That.
>> Susan (52:22):
Yeah. Um, so on the VOA volunteers, uh,
of America website at the Shea Moral
Injury center. Um, and now this is. You can
get this podcast anywhere where you get podcasts, but if
you want to go to their website you can also see
the show notes and that kind of stuff. Um, but we have a
podcast called Soul Repair After Moral
(52:43):
Injury and it's um, co hosted
by Rita and me and we talk
with all kinds of people in
this very limited six episode limited
series. Um, we've talked about doing
some more. We haven't yet, but, um, who knows
what the future will um, will lead us
to. Um, we also
(53:05):
um, are envisioning a book
that we will be writing for the church, specifically for the
church on moral injury. Um, and so
we hope that uh, that will be a blessing for the
church in the future.
Um, and some other stuff about
me you can find out on our church's
website@florencechristian.org
(53:27):
Florence in Kentucky. Uh, there's
a lot of Florence Christian churches around, so it's got to be the one in
Kentucky. Also,
uh, we've got a, the church has a Facebook
page and we also have a YouTube channel.
So uh, you can find sermons and,
and um, meditations, uh,
and daily devotions, those kinds of things on those
(53:50):
channels. So um, feel free to check
it out.
>> Loren (53:54):
Great. Great. Well, thanks so much for the conversation.
Really appreciate your perspectives here. Something uh,
we could do, folks should do more of we try to
do here at this podcast. Leave folks with a word of
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Susan (54:09):
And with you you. God bless you.
>> Loren Richmond (54:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the connect with us for form at the bottom of the
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(54:39):
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peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Dr.
Susan Ward diamond to the program.
Dr. Diamond is the Lead Pastor of Florence
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in Florence,
Kentucky, where she has served since
2015. Susan received her Bachelor of
Arts degree from Texas Christian University,
(01:06):
a Master of Divinity degree from Bright Divinity
School, and a Doctor of Ministry degree from
United Theological seminary in Dayton,
Ohio. Dr. Diamond has
invested herself in ministry and mission through
local, regional and general expressions of the
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United
States and Canada throughout her 30 throughout
(01:29):
33 years of ordained ministry,
she has served on the regional boards of the Florida
and Alabama Northwest Florida
regions, directed numerous youth camps
and conferences, and served as a keynote
speaker of retreats and assemblies around the country.
She has served her denomination as
First Vice Moderator for the
(01:51):
2011-2013 biennium of the
Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States
and Canada. During her sabbatical
in 2021, Dr. Diamond and Dr.
Rita Nakashima Brock collaborated
on a pastoral study grant funded by the
Louisville Institute entitled
Moral A Catalyst for
(02:13):
Reform. Following the study period, they
have continued their work together to offer strategies to
faith communities for providing support and
healing for those suffering from moral distress and
moral injury. They have recently
launched the podcast Soul Repair After
Moral Injury. Susan and Rita are
(02:33):
currently writing a book which they hope to publish
soon. A reminder before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
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(02:54):
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>> Loren (03:17):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming
today. Reverend Dr. Susan Diamond. Hello and
welcome to the show.
>> Susan (03:27):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be
with you.
>> Loren (03:30):
Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Is there Anything else you'd like our listeners to know about
you?
>> Susan (03:37):
Well, I was looking through my bio, um, and I
realized I didn't put anything about, you know, my kind of my
personal life. So I'll share a couple of things about those with
you because it's an interesting. It's interesting.
Um, so I have been married
to my husband Ron for 40, almost 46
years now. And I don't want anybody to do the
(03:58):
math, but I was a baby when we got married. Let's just say
that. Um, and the second thing
I would want listeners to know, um, about
my husband. He is a professional
entertainer, um, travels all over the U.S. uh,
and actually he's done some international work as well,
um, as a magician and stage
hypnotist.
>> Loren (04:19):
Wow.
>> Susan (04:19):
It's a very interesting combination to have a pastor,
a female pastor with her magician
husband. I get a lot of comments about
that. Um, but he's fantastic
in Entertainment for 50 years and
just, uh, is a great, ah, a great entertainer
and a wonderful husband. Um, also,
uh, one of the things that we love to do is travel. And,
(04:42):
um, so we do lots of cruising and we do lots of traveling
around the world. Um, we've been blessed to be able to do
that. And, um, we are proud
parents of a little miniature dachshund named
Bella. And she is, she's kind of
the light of our life. Hopefully you will not hear her barking. My husband
has orders to keep her quiet while we're doing
this.
>> Loren (05:03):
My. I have a bigger dog that likes to shove her head in
my lap intermittently during these
conversations.
Yeah, well, I want to talk cruising, but,
um, do you have a cruise coming up? I guess. Any big.
>> Susan (05:14):
I do, yes. In May, we are going on a
very short cruise. Uh, only five
days, but we're going to Cozumel and
Bimini on, uh, Virgin. It's the first
time we've. We've traveled on Virgin, but a lot of our friends have told us
how fun, how much fun it is. And, um, my
husband says he likes to go cruising because it gets me
away and nobody can get in touch with me.
(05:37):
Yeah, that was actually before
Internet became really Wi fi became
available. But we say nobody calls
while we're on a cruise. So it's a
good thing for, um, our relationship
and for my emotional health. Yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (05:54):
You know, I was thinking about that because I did a cruise.
My parents took my family on a Disney
cruise some years ago. And I remember,
like, that was a real nice thing because I was not going to pay
for wifi because it's not cheap for
one on the cruise. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm. I guess. I
guess I'm going to have great boundaries here because no one could call me
Plug.
>> Susan (06:15):
Yes, indeed.
>> Loren (06:17):
Well, uh, share, if you would, just kind of about your faith journey, how
it, how it began, what it looks like today. And. And
uh.
>> Susan (06:24):
Yeah, well, it's changed a lot. I'll
just say that over. Over the time I have been
alive, I was raised in the Christian
faith. Um, I remember,
um, from a very, very early age asking.
And my grandmother had a big impact on my life.
Um, felt a sense of call.
(06:44):
Didn't know that that was called to pastoral ministry, which
is where I landed. But, um, I remember
when I was a senior in high school, you know, they had
the yearly youth Sunday event. And
so, uh, two of us, um, both
named Susan by the way, um, were asked to
do a little personal testimony. And I got
(07:05):
up and I said how easy it was to
be a Christian. And then my friend
Susan got up and she said how hard it
was to be a Christian.
>> Loren (07:14):
How interesting.
>> Susan (07:15):
And it was interesting. And I have learned
over the years that my friend Susan had it more,
More right than I did at the time. So,
um, you know, I know now that, uh, it's not
an easy thing to be a Christian. And I think even in
the climate that we're living in
now, uh, truly being a follower of
(07:36):
Christ and being a disciple
is very challenging and,
um, especially in the church today.
So, um, I know that's true, but,
ah, I think that's
really where I want to stop there. You know, I can go on and on
and on and talk about a spiritual journey that led
me into ministry. I was very, very
(07:58):
grateful for all the doors that opened to
me so that I would be able to pursue that,
um, especially by working as a church secretary
at Bright Divinity School. And one of the benefits of working
there was full tuition, husband and I to
finish our. We got married really early and
we dropped out of school. And then we were able to complete our
(08:18):
undergraduate degrees, um, based on
that. And then God had me. I say God
had me at Bright Divinity School working so that I could
see women going into ministry and then
opening the doors for me to do that. So I am
incredibly grateful for the journey and
all the changes, um, that have happened in my
life as I've been involved in this odd and wondrous
(08:40):
calling of ministry.
>> Loren (08:43):
Yeah, that's a good way of saying it. Share if you're
willing.
>> Susan (08:46):
There's a book written by that title.
>> Loren (08:48):
Yeah, yeah. Share, if you're willing, any
thoughts on spiritual practices that are meaningful for you,
you're willing to share.
>> Susan (08:56):
Okay, so, um, let
me just say this. Uh, I was
at a meeting, it was a boundaries training meeting
with other ministers. I think there were probably a couple hundred
people and we were sit
roundtables because that very question was asked,
what do you do to take care of yourself
spiritually? What are the, what are the practices that you
(09:19):
do? And around this whole table everybody was
talking about, you know, oh, I get
up and I meditate and I go,
you know, I go for a run, I do this, I do that.
And when it got to me, I said, well,
every day I have a little bit of chocolate and a
little bit of wine. And those are spiritual
(09:40):
practices. But not, not only that, of
course. Um, I love
spending quiet time with God. I love
communing with nature, I love journaling,
I love, um, reflecting on stuff that I
read. Um, so these are daily
practices every single day, um, that I'm
(10:00):
involved in and really get a lot out of it.
Uh, I work with a spiritual director
and that's probably one of the most life changing things that I
have done in the last several years.
But, um, uh, she,
um, keeps me grounded and continues to ask
probing questions that I often, because of
(10:21):
the work that I do that focuses on everybody else, I don't focus
on myself as much. And so I have found
that to be quite rewarding.
>> Loren (10:30):
Yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing all that.
Well, we're here to talk with Susan today,
sort of as an extension of the
Remind and Renew conference that took place in Phillips
Seminary. I was pleased to be there in person
and got to speak with Susan's uh,
co speaker. What would be the word, one of your
(10:51):
colleagues?
>> Susan (10:52):
Yes, Dr. Uh, Rita Nakashima
Brock, who we co host a, uh,
podcast, a limited podcast. And we've done some
work on moral injury over the years.
>> Loren (11:03):
So the Phillips Seminary reminded Renew conference
this year was centered on the theme
of seeking wisdom and
understanding in troubling times.
And with my conversation
with Dr. Brock, we kind of just talked through
that theme. And I kind of wanted to do the same
thing here today. Obviously, as I mentioned,
(11:25):
ah, before we started recording, I think this is important.
This will air sometime after,
obviously, as we are already past it. But when I
recorded with Dr. Brock, we were just before
the presidential inauguration. Now we are,
we're into it and this will be aired, you
know, some weeks or perhaps months after.
(11:46):
So I think in many ways that's Shifted,
um, the national mood in some ways.
So I want to start with. So I want to start with
this. Um, let's
reflect, if you can, as you
think about troubling times.
You're a pastor. You've been leading a
(12:07):
church community for many years.
What, uh, have you seen that's
perhaps unique about our current
context? What do you think is the same?
What are you seeing, perhaps, in your congregants that
feels different? Share. Feel free to
respond to what strikes you.
>> Susan (12:28):
Yeah, I was,
um. I was just thinking
about that. I was, uh. Earlier today,
I, uh, was getting, um, off on Fridays,
and so I was getting all my chores done, uh, personal
chores done, and one of them was getting my nails done. That's
my guilty pleasure, you know, kind of thing. But,
um, the person who owns the nail
(12:50):
salon is from Cambodia,
and nobody was in the. This was
interesting. Nobody was in there except the two of us.
And she's been my nail, um,
person for a long time. And
she was talking with me about,
um, uh,
(13:10):
our governor, actually, in Kentucky is Andy
Brashear, who is part of our
denomination, uh, Christian Church Disciples of Christ. Shout
out. She brought him up as somebody
who really cares about people.
>> Loren (13:24):
Yeah.
>> Susan (13:24):
And, um, and she said, I'm so thankful
for he. He cares about me.
And I said, yes, he does. And I know him
personally, and he is a man of faith, and he
really. He really believes that each human being
is worthy of dignity and. And
respect. And she, um, said,
I'm just. I'm just unrattled
(13:47):
right now because I feel like I'm not
safe.
>> Loren (13:50):
Yeah.
>> Susan (13:51):
And she said, um, well, she
was robbed a couple of months ago from
home, and there's not been as many
people coming in the nail salon. So she's worried about.
She's worried about her business, but she's also
worried about, uh, people like
herself that come from a different ethnicity that may be
targeted in some way. She's totally
(14:13):
legally here in the United States. She
said, I understand getting people who are dangerous
off the streets. She said, but
this is not good. Um, this is not the kind
of America that I thought I was coming to.
And, um, so I
took some time just to be with her,
(14:34):
to affirm her and
in our local congregation. As a pastor
of this congregation, which is an
amazing, amazing, um, congregation
been in existence for almost 200
years, um, @ the
beginning of the Stone Campbell movement. And,
um, 1831 actually was when it was established. Uh,
(14:57):
but the church's DNA
has always been. Always been
about serving the community. And
so we are Involved, um, in some
amazing kinds of ministries, um,
to people who are marginalized,
um, the unhoused. We have a shower
ministry, um, that goes on with them,
(15:19):
um, with those that are,
um, food insecure. We have a 247
outdoor pantry as well as a huge
distribution a couple times a month that we make,
um, we have a health clinic, um, once a month that
goes on with, um. But we have lots of community
partners, nonprofit community partners,
um, that make these, um, ministries
(15:41):
possible. And, um, there is
anxiety about all of
the, you know, all the cuts that are being made. We are
grant generated and a lot of the partners that we
work with are grant generated. And
we're concerned for the least of
these, um, because our
(16:02):
little church, um, which
operates a big. A big ministry, um,
is not able to do that on. On tithes and
offerings. Yeah. And so we
are, um. I think there's a lot of concern about
that. Our congregation is a
diverse community. Um, we do not
all think the same way. We are not all on
(16:24):
the same political persuasion.
Um, and yet we are very, very
clear about the kind of mission that we have
that we're called to. And
so these are all challenging times
that we're living in. And as I said to, uh,
Rita shortly after the
election that I think that, uh, even before
(16:47):
we saw what's happened since the inaugur,
um, that we have our work cut out for us as we are
looking toward the future, um,
with moral, uh, injury
happening in lots of different ways.
>> Loren (17:02):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all that.
I'm struck by kind of what you said, and I'm going to get his
name wrong. So forgive me. And disciples of Christ
at large, forgive me. Bashir. Bashar.
>> Susan (17:14):
Bashir.
>> Loren (17:15):
Bashir. Okay, Governor
Bashir. Yes, I think
that's striking. What you shared,
how he's being perceived, is that he cares about
other people. I think we're. I feel like.
I think what's most troubling to me
about our current time and place is it feels
(17:36):
like caring for people is, like, considered.
I mean, in some circles, folks are saying
empathy is a sin, which is, I mean,
mind bogglingly preposterous.
And I'm also struck by what you shared about your
church. You said, if I heard you
correctly, your church is not a church that they all vote
(17:58):
the same way, but they have agreed, uh, to
be clear on mission and service to
others, which, again, I think is
striking. So do you want to share more
about, um, how that, that kind of
ethos has come to be and how you've helped foster that.
>> Susan (18:13):
Thanks for asking that question because I think it's an important
one. Um, I have been ah,
lead pastor at Florence christian now for 10 years
and when we came to the
church, um,
uh, we
recognized pretty quickly that the church uh,
had gone through a time of
(18:36):
questioning uh, what their existence was about and that kind of
thing. So we really worked very, on the
first year to 18 months on
mission to get clarity about
what it was that God was calling us to be and
do and our why, what
was our reason for existence. We also
developed a set of core values that
(18:58):
guide us. Uh, so our mission is that
we celebrate God's welcome table of abundant
love, grace and acceptance. Um,
it's the. It's just the ethos
that we live out of and um, so that
has opened the doors really wide
to a great diversity of people
(19:19):
coming in that they, you know, they're welcome, they're
received, they're loved and um, we
really embrace that. Um, the core
values that we have are to welcome
radically and serve
boldly and form faith every
day. Um, we cannot do
the first two unless we are forming our faith.
(19:41):
And that is the well out of which we can
welcome radically without um,
barriers to people, no matter where they come from.
If we've got somebody who's in our shower ministry
that um, has come in,
comes into the church, they're just as much a part of our family
as anybody else. Um, we became
open and affirming that that whole thing led us to
(20:04):
the LBGTQ community to open right our
doors as well as people who
are maybe more conservative
politically and everybody has a place
at the table and um,
so we live by those core values.
We live by that mission and that
has informed how we have developed the ministries
(20:27):
that we've been involved in. Now we've had a major
childcare ministry for over 40 years,
um, one of the largest in Kentucky,
um, nonprofit. We have
recovery, uh, groups that meet. Those were all going on
before we came. But the food ministries, the homeless
ministries, um,
(20:48):
um, we have 40 community partners
that um, provide services so that when somebody comes
to get a shower or get food from us, that we have
ways of connecting them with resources that will
help them to m, move out of um,
homelessness into you know,
um, what we would consider more
um, stable, uh living.
(21:11):
And um. And so they
come to, they come to our place,
these community partners and we connect
them with each other. So um, there's
lots and lots of partnerships. We do not, when
we serve 15, uh, hundred people through
our food ministry distribution twice a
(21:31):
month um, we open, uh, that
opportunity for service to anybody who
wants to help us. And that's the
only way we could do what we do is through
recognizing our partnerships with each other.
>> Loren (21:45):
Yeah.
So I'm thinking about this. You've been at your church, you said,
10 years thereabouts. Right. I mean, that's a long time.
I'm sure you've seen your fair share
of conflict and division in the church as much
as you've tried to try
to lead. Well, I'm curious again, as we think
about troubling times.
(22:07):
Even if you want to reflect on your own, within your
own community, there are troubling times within your own community.
How have those values and being
clear on mission helped? Because I feel like
this is. I feel like in many ways this is kind of what is a
big, humongous divide.
Divide is not the right word. But barrier. I don't know what the right word is in
(22:27):
our nation is. There's no kind of clear
moral guidelines about what should direct
our actions in future. How is. How have you
seen those clear mission and clear values
help lead your community through
conflict and division?
>> Susan (22:42):
Yeah. And I want to say, um, I did
a leadership, uh, thing on
conflict because, uh, George, uh,
Bullard, uh, wrote a book called Every
Congregation Needs a Little Conflict because
conflict actually provides the opportunity
for growth to happen. And
I love, to use the metaphor of a butterfly,
(23:05):
um, has. Starts as a caterpillar is
in a cocoon and has to fight to get
out of that cocoon. And that fight is
what provides the wings
to fly. And if you cut that,
if you don't. If you don't go through.
Will never develop its wings. And so,
(23:25):
um, we. We certainly have had conflict.
And I would say one of the. One of the challenges.
And we'll talk about this maybe a little bit later too.
Um, I think for the North American church, and probably
churches all the world is. When we went
through Covid, it changed
us. And there's. And it. It
(23:46):
decreased our size. And it was,
you know, we. We still have lots of people
who join us on Sunday mornings, and we don't see them at
church.
>> Loren (23:55):
Right.
>> Susan (23:55):
And. And there are things that have
happened. Um, there are
troubling things that have happened as a result of
that. Um, a couple of things on both
sides. So for the people who are staying at
home, there's this disconnect in
some ways, um, and loneliness,
um, that doesn't happen when
(24:18):
you. Hopefully when you're gathering in small groups at
least, and connecting with each other in
person. Um, it Also
has meant, ah, uh,
decreasing in sizes of giving and
those kinds of things which have created,
um, the challenges that we're
facing. What we try to do is to be nimble with that
(24:40):
and to say, okay, God, what
is it that we can do? Are there things that we need
to, um, let go of so that we can take on
something different? Um,
and that's the. I would say that's a
huge challenge for us. Um,
but not to be afraid of conflict.
And we certainly have, uh. We've gotten in.
(25:02):
What, uh, what was his name? Uh,
John. Good Trouble.
I'm having a meeting.
>> Loren (25:09):
Oh, yeah, I can't think of the.
>> Susan (25:11):
Author either, but yeah, from Georgia. From Georgia.
Yeah. He passed away. But yeah, we've gotten into some good
trouble. John Lewis. John Lewis. Thank
you.
>> Loren (25:20):
Yeah.
>> Susan (25:21):
Yeah, we've gotten into good trouble
before with, um, you know, uh,
last year we had very, very
dangerous cold weather. We've had it again this year.
Um, and we wanted to offer
space for people to
come in out of the cold. And we were
(25:41):
told we were not zoned to do that. You know, and
so we've been. We've been struggling, um, with
our. Our, uh, city and county
to. To find ways to work together so
that no one dies.
>> Loren (25:55):
Yeah.
>> Susan (25:56):
That there are. There are ways in which we can
work together on that. And that is continuing to be
a struggle for us. Um,
and part of. I think it's
just part of the cost of discipleship too.
Right.
>> Loren (26:11):
Yeah. And I appreciate you say that. This idea
of a good conflict. Because I think there can be this sense
of we want to avoid conflict at all costs. And
I think getting to the
broader picture, I feel like that's been somewhat problematic
about our culture at large.
Right. It's, uh, almost like this. This. Like we
(26:32):
can't ever talk about anything controversial. Like we can't talk religion,
can't have politics. And then it comes to the point where,
like, when it does come out, it's just like all anger and vitriol
because it's kind of these blowing the top type
conversations is that.
>> Susan (26:44):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
And I. I think
we are, especially in the church
where we love. We want to
be unified. And
so sometimes we avoid those hard
conversations. And I am certainly.
I'm a two on the Enneagram, so I'm a people pleaser. And I'm wanting
(27:06):
everybody to, uh, love me. So
that's one of the challenges that I have had a personal
growth over my life is to find ways
of being in conversation and even in
conflict. Um, in healthy ways
so that we can. Can find
commonalities, we can respect each
(27:26):
other, and we can grow.
All of us can grow through doing that.
>> Loren (27:32):
Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. I
appreciate you sharing that.
I want to kind of shift gears here toward the
seeking wisdom and understanding. But I'm curious.
You mentioned those three core values of welcoming, serving,
and forming. But what struck
me as, uh, most interesting is you said
your church can't welcome and serve before they're
(27:54):
formed. I want to hear more about that.
>> Susan (27:57):
Yeah, I want to. So. And this is where
we, uh, our church has that service
DNA. They love. They absolutely love
service. In fact, we end our worship services
every single week with the mantra,
the worship is over. Now the service begins. And
so we say that, uh, you know, the
(28:17):
worship leader, or I will say, the worship is over and the
people shout it out. Now the service begins.
>> Loren (28:22):
That's great.
>> Susan (28:23):
The weak link for many people
is that they're so much into
service or so much into social justice or so
much that, uh, not having the
faith balance, the forming faith every
day and that kind of thing,
it makes us lopsided. And so,
(28:44):
uh, what I want to say to folks, and we just did a
series on shalom, finding shalom, that it
begins with finding peace with God.
Then we find peace with ourselves. And
only after we find peace with God and peace with
ourselves can we find peace with each other.
And so out of that, think about,
(29:04):
think about that in terms of conflict.
Because many times when we get. When we have
differences of opinion, we want to
preserve, you know, or put
our opinion out there as the right
one. And, um,
when we have done that work ahead of time, when I meet
with somebody that I don't know,
(29:26):
it makes me at least be
mindful that this is another human being
loved by God beyond measure,
created in the image of God. And even
though I might disagree
with every single thing that person says, they
still have value, they still have
dignity. And, um, I need to
(29:48):
treat them that way. Um, so,
yeah, that's what I mean when I talk about forming
faith every day, is that
spirituality has, uh,
to be the center of where we come
from.
>> Loren (30:03):
Yeah, I'm appreciating that for two reasons. One is I
kind of reflect on the state
of young men in our nation
and how so many kind of moving hard,
right? And
as I reflect as the next generation of men,
I want better for them. And I'm thinking
a so many of them, I feel like, were the ones who were kind of
(30:25):
marching in the Black Lives Matter. 4,
5, 6, whatever that was years ago.
And it seems like without a foundation, they
have been kind of swayed. Otherwise
opposite. And then two. I think the other thing that
I imagine you can agree with is I think
without kind of, like you said, that foundation of
this is an image of God
(30:47):
bearer. There can be this kind of like, win at
all costs mentality. I mean, I just saw
this, this video this morning of some. Someone
who's famous going viral on YouTube for
like, being mean to conservatives.
Like, like. And I'm just like, what. What are we doing here? Like, how
is that going to win anybody over?
>> Susan (31:06):
It will not. It will not.
>> Loren (31:10):
Yeah.
>> Susan (31:11):
And we have to realize,
I mean, and I don't even think even when Jesus was being
critical of others,
especially the religious leaders who thought they had it all
together, um,
I don't think he acted ever out of
a disrespect for
(31:31):
humanity or their
humanness. I mean,
I think my interpretation of
what he did was always, always about getting people
to understand that living
in relationship with God, relationship with each
others has to be based on
love.
>> Loren (31:53):
Do you think that's. I mean, do you think you. I'm, um, writing down the
words living in relationship, relation,
ship, trying to spell that here. Do you
think that's like, do you think that's an essential
element of it, is living in relationship with
people? Because again, I'm going back to your church, your
church community. Like, like you said, you have people in relationship
(32:14):
with one another who may vote differently, but, uh,
because they are in relationship with one another, they have a
common mission to serve and love others.
>> Susan (32:23):
Yes. It's all about
my understanding of the
gospel, of the
Christian life. Discipleship. That
is it. That is the basis of it.
And love is expressed through respect.
And I can challenge someone and
(32:45):
respect them at the same time as a
person.
And we can have, uh. I can have
a conversation. I'm thinking about a couple people in my
congregation who. We are very much
on different sides of the political spectrum
and we love each other. And I can have a
conversation with them and ask them questions
(33:07):
and let them ask me questions.
>> Loren (33:10):
Yeah.
>> Susan (33:11):
Why, why do you. Yeah, tell me more
about where you are coming from so I can
understand, um, Stephen Covey and the
seven habits of Hol. Effective people says, seek first to
understand, then be understood.
Um, and I think that that is really, really
key. Um, and that
(33:31):
kind of, um, in terms of the work that Rita
and I are doing kind of fits
in with that. Um, because
part, uh, of what we do with moral injury work
is, uh, focus on
listening Listening rather than
fixing the other person
to listen well. And
(33:54):
um, you were able to experience a little bit of
that, um, at the Renew and Remind
conference through our fishbowl experience.
But when I have healing circles in my
congregation, uh, which we've had several of them
over the years, one of the things that I
keep being amazed by is,
(34:14):
is uh, in
congregations most of the
time you think about um, people who come to
worship. How you doing? Oh, I'm doing great. How are
you doing? You know, it's this little, little thing.
And um, very rarely
will people take the time to be
(34:36):
transparent, um, maybe about how they're really
doing. So in
these healing circles that we have done as a pilot
project of
um, how to
heal, uh, from moral injury,
um, we um, are very, very
(34:56):
cognizant that we tend not to
listen. Well, yeah, because
we're thinking about the next thing we want to say to that
person. And so, so
in the healing circle you do not get to
speak, you do not get to refer to what
somebody else has said. You only speak your thing,
(35:17):
your truth. And as you're
listening in the rest of the
circle, the um, non
verbal affirmation of putting your hand
over your heart, nodding your head,
doing those things, you are
focusing on that person and they are feeling hurt. But
the beautiful thing for me, as one
(35:38):
who tends not to listen very well, I'm thinking about that
next thing I want to say to you, um, but it
gives me that space to
listen and to recognize
the image of God in that other person that's
sharing a really hard thing and
um, being able to empathize with where they
are.
>> Loren (36:00):
I want to stay on. This is sort of off topic,
but I think it fits in. I want to stay on this healing
circle, uh, because Susan
is describing something that they led
at Remind and Renew, kind of, kind of put into
practice a healing circle. So maybe, I
guess real quick, just describe it. But what I want
(36:20):
to come back to is. So just real quick describe like the, the
ins and outs of it and then I want a follow up question.
>> Susan (36:26):
Right. So let me just say that
we developed. I've developed
this project out of a sabbatical
project that I had with the Louisville Institute,
um, entitled, um, Moral
Injury A Catalyst for Reform.
And the idea was, um, for those of
(36:46):
us who have
a working definition of moral injury, um,
it is very, very. Rita
will define it much better than I do,
but um, the way that I describe moral injury is
participating or witnessing
something that happens that takes us beyond our
moral compass, that
(37:08):
creates harm and so
um, we know this
veterans um, come back from war, they've been
commanded to do something like kill a non combatant or
they've had um, you know, they come back with
survivor guilt or whatever it is, but it is a
moral injury that often they don't
talk about with anyone else. It leads to a higher
(37:31):
rate of suicide. And then during
COVID we saw this breaking out
in the general population,
um, because doctors were having to make decisions about
who was going to go on life support and who wasn't.
And families were not able to be with their loved ones
when they were dying. And pastors were not
able to go into hospitals and hold the hand of somebody who was
(37:53):
dying. I mean all of us had
this distress and injury that it
was going on. So part of my project
was to look at the healing
ministry of Jesus as a metaphor for
leading us out of this moral
injury. And so
(38:13):
uh, where churches in the United States have focused so much
on church growth and those kinds of things,
what I wanted to say is maybe this is
a time in which the church is being called back to
healing ministry. Healing
ministry. And so we
developed these what we called healing circles.
We call them also talking circles or we call them
(38:36):
soul repair circles. They're all the same.
Um, and I really benefited from um,
Rita and what she was doing with the
Volunteers of America online program as
well as another um, circle
ministry out of ah, with a UCC
pastor. Retired pastor up in Northern
Ohio, had been working with veterans
(38:58):
for 15 years at the time and um,
so learning from them
but to create something that would be
um, an opportunity for people to come in
and talk about that
stuff. So creating a circle, very
ritualized, everything is
um, prayed over before a group
(39:21):
walks into a room and it's all set up in a certain
way and we have symbols in
the um, in the room
and um, we might have a cross, we might
have a shell, um,
that we put anointing oil in. And people can anoint themselves.
So it's just you know, creating that space.
(39:42):
And um, when people come in they have to be
quiet and they have to listen. And we have
a stone that we allow people
to um, hold and tell their
story. There will usually be a prompt at the
beginning of the session.
So I might ask, I um, might
ask someone or everyone to write, take
(40:04):
7 minutes, 10 minutes to write down, write a
letter to someone who they have unfinished,
uh, emotional business with. That's one of the prompts that
we using. And it's powerful.
Yeah, um, because a lot of
times and trying to use different
ways, um, with the senses and different ways to get people
in touch with what's going on in their soul.
(40:27):
Um, but one of the things that I love about
healing circles is it gives permission.
And you would be
amazed at what people will share
in an environment that is confidential,
that is, um, that nothing
that is shared is off limits.
They can share whatever they want to share, and
(40:50):
they're fully acceptable.
>> Loren (40:51):
It.
>> Susan (40:53):
It's powerful. And, um. And people in our
congregation. I have one. One guy who came in who had
been, um, so much trauma
in his childhood, and he's probably in his
early 40s in. In therapy and has had lots
and lots of. Of trauma that he's
experienced. And he told me
(41:13):
after being in a healing, he got more out of being in a
healing circle than in all of the years
that he'd been in there. Therapy, which is amazing to
me.
>> Loren (41:22):
Yeah.
>> Susan (41:23):
Um, and truly a work of the spirit.
>> Loren (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Susan (41:26):
So anyway, we. What we're doing at
this point is trying to help other congregations to
know that, um, you know, these
are tools we can provide. And
hopefully, um, uh, lay
people in the congregation lead these. I don't lead
them. Um, so it's not one more thing on the pastor's
plate to do that.
>> Loren (41:46):
Right.
>> Susan (41:47):
To equip the lay people to do that
ministry.
>> Loren (41:51):
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's such an important
tool. Things like this for a.
Like, practically speaking, like, it doesn't have to just be the
pastor and empowering lay folks, but creating
spaces for understanding and wisdom
communally. You know, I was remembering
when you led this in
Tulsa. I think that if I'm remembering
(42:13):
correctly, the prompt was on a Habakkuk text.
Do you remember the text? Text?
>> Susan (42:18):
Yeah, it was a. It was a lament from
Hank, Chapter three, I think. I can't
remember right now, but it. You know, even though the
leaves wither and the. I mean, it's kind of like, I will
trust in you, oh, God. I mean, no matter. No matter what
happens in my life
and how bad things may seem, I.
(42:38):
Yet I will trust in you, and I will, you
know, I will be yours, you know,
kind of thing. And so it was an opportunity for
people to think about the things, um, that. That they're
lamenting at the moment. And, you know,
so many times, um, in my
ministry, people have said, I can't be
(42:58):
angry with God.
>> Loren (43:00):
Right.
>> Susan (43:00):
Angry with God. And, um, you know,
so I had this recently. My spiritual
director asked me to do something on feelings. And
I'm this person most of the time,
but I'M also this person some of the time
for listeners.
>> Loren (43:17):
There's a bright sun and then a red, angry
sun.
>> Susan (43:20):
Red, angry sun. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Loren (43:22):
And.
>> Susan (43:22):
And the thing about it is, scripture says
it's okay.
>> Loren (43:27):
Yeah.
>> Susan (43:27):
To complain. It is okay to tell
God, because God's got, you
know, got the capacity to take all of m.
That. And, um. And it's not a statement
of lack of faith in God. It's a great
statement of faith in God when we bring
our injuries and in our troubles
to God. Um, so, yeah, I
(43:50):
keep this up. I keep this up here in my office to kind of,
you know, do a little. Little, uh, inventory of myself
from time to time, just to say, hey,
you know, I don't always. I'm not always going to be up. And that
is okay.
>> Loren (44:03):
Yeah. And I think, uh, well, meant is such
an important and neglected tool. And I'm just thinking,
like, I was just an
observer for that healing circle and was listening to
Rebecca, excuse me, the Habakkuk text, and
folks kind of interpreting that accordingly. And
then a few weeks later, I was leading a small group at my
(44:23):
church, and we were talking about joy and
the Philippians text and the kind of
the paradox of finding joy in the midst of
challenge. And I remember the Habakkuk text, and I
kind of, like, right then and there was kind
of demonstrating it for the group. Uh, even though my commute was
terrible, even though it's all this.
(44:43):
And it was powerful for me even just to say that. And I
think similarly for folks to hear
that, and it's just such a wonderful
example. Um, well,
I'm grateful for this conversation. We do need to take a break
and come back with some closing questions. So let's take a quick
break, and we'll come back with some closing questions.
(45:06):
All right. We're back with Reverend Dr. Susan
Diamond. Thank you so much for this conversation.
And, uh, I feel like we need to have, like. I feel like you need to send me,
like, an image of the happy and mad son for the
show notes. Okay, we'll do
that for those who just listen and
may want to see it. Um, okay. These closing
(45:26):
questions always. We always tell folks, you can take these as seriously or
not as you'd like to. If you're a pope for a day,
what do you want to do?
>> Susan (45:35):
Okay, so, duh,
talk to any female minister. I think they would say
ordination of priests, Women priests, for
sure. Yeah, absolutely. I guess if I got
to be the Pope, that would already be a done thing. But,
uh, just saying, maybe you're the first.
>> Loren (45:54):
Maybe you're the first, um, a
theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life.
>> Susan (46:01):
Yeah. Dietrich, uh. Bonhoeffer.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I have always been
fascinated with him, um, both
for his, um, incredible
faith and, uh,
insight into what does it mean to
be,
uh, the community of
(46:23):
faith, the confessing community,
um, and his courage
that he had to stand up against
Hitler. Um,
and I've also been fascinated with, you
know, his. Because I consider myself a
pacifist and I, uh, you know, that.
(46:44):
What was it? I really want to understand what
led him into being a part of
the, you know, the resistance to the book that he was involved
in conversations about assassination. You know,
I just. Yeah, I would really love to have a
conversation with him. I love his work, his. His
books. Uh, the Cost of Discipleship
(47:04):
is one of them. And the one on Community, I think,
is Excell. Excellent as well. Yeah, yeah.
I'd like. I'd like talk to Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
>> Loren (47:12):
Well, here's a loaded question if ever there was one. What
do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> Susan (47:20):
Yep. Um, lots of
fear, lots of anxiety over
the future. Um, and I think,
uh, I'm getting closer to
retirement. Um, and of course,
you know, wondering what the future will look
like for someone like me. Um, so,
(47:40):
personally, nationally, globally,
um, you know, we're in the midst of great climate
change and all of those things, so I think,
um, you know, there's. I think fear and anxiety
over the future is really
palpable right now. Right.
Yeah.
>> Loren (47:58):
Well, let's end on something.
>> Susan (48:00):
Like I said, like I said about Rita, you know, talking with
Rita about this, I think that there's going to be a
lot of work for us to do. Um,
and I hope that we. That we will be able to do
it, um, with regard to moral injury,
because I think that's going to be part of it.
>> Loren (48:16):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, let's end on something
more positive. What do you hope for the future of
Christianity?
>> Susan (48:24):
Okay. I think I
hope at least three
things.
>> Loren (48:30):
Yeah.
>> Susan (48:31):
The first would be to remember who
we are as human beings.
And we talked a little bit about that, um,
with regard to being created in the image
of God, beloved by God, and
what love actually calls us to as
followers of Jesus. So, um, when you
say, um, you know, people
(48:53):
even, you know, we see in the church this
division that has happened in a making of
enemies based on things that should
not, uh, that should not be.
Um. And so how can, uh,
as followers of Christ,
um, how can we move into the
future with the values
(49:16):
of Christ, Uh, the core values
of Christ, which is all about love.
And, you know, and I don't. I don't mean the kind of
love that's the feel good love. I'm talking about the love that's
the hard kind of love. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (49:31):
You've been married 46 years. You know something about hard love,
right?
>> Susan (49:34):
I do. And, you know, here's. Okay, I'm going to tell
you all this. This is great. My,
um. Probably 20 years ago,
I remember one of my aunts saying to
me that as, um, she and
her husband had been married
longer, that a different kind of
love emerged. And it was
(49:56):
a. It was good. And I have to say, I have
to say now I'm more in love with my husband now than I have
ever been. And it's a different kind of love, and it's a
deeper. And, um, so that gives
me hope, um, you know, not just for
my relationship with him, but as we
focus on love, what, the
hard stuff, um, how does that bring
(50:19):
out about God's good in the world? So
that's one thing. Um,
the other is, let's see, three
things. Okay. Um. Yeah, so we talked about
renewing the ministry of healing, healing in the church.
This. One of the things my hope for the future of
Christianity is, is, you know,
um, how do we move
(50:40):
from church, uh, growth,
which I understand, we want more people to know
Christ. And we. If we're doing the things
that we have, the values that Christ has,
so. Sorry.
>> Loren (50:53):
It's okay.
>> Susan (50:54):
I was trying to stop that.
Okay, I'm gonna turn it. Silenced
on my phone. Apparently it synced with my
computer, but the sec. Yeah, yeah. The second
thing is, uh, renewing a ministry of healing. And
then, um, as. As I am
preparing over the next few years to
(51:15):
retire, um, one of my. One of
my real heart's desires and passions
is, um, that God will call new
spiritual leaders the
church. And I have. I mean, I know that
seminary enrollment's down, and I just. I just
pray that God will bring the right
(51:35):
people to ministry
because it's a wonderful. It is a
wonderful, hard,
um, fantastic
life. I have really loved what I have
done. And, um, yeah, there have been lots of
times of tears, and there's been lots of times of struggle,
struggles. But overall, you know,
(51:57):
I'm so thankful for the call to ministry
that God's given me. So, um, I'm
praying for new spiritual leaders to come in that have
a heart for God and, you know,
um, are really about the values,
the core values of Jesus Christ.
>> Loren (52:13):
Yeah. Awesome.
Well, you have a podcast, right? Uh,
where can folks connect with you and the podcast? All the. That.
>> Susan (52:22):
Yeah. Um, so on the VOA volunteers, uh,
of America website at the Shea Moral
Injury center. Um, and now this is. You can
get this podcast anywhere where you get podcasts, but if
you want to go to their website you can also see
the show notes and that kind of stuff. Um, but we have a
podcast called Soul Repair After Moral
(52:43):
Injury and it's um, co hosted
by Rita and me and we talk
with all kinds of people in
this very limited six episode limited
series. Um, we've talked about doing
some more. We haven't yet, but, um, who knows
what the future will um, will lead us
to. Um, we also
(53:05):
um, are envisioning a book
that we will be writing for the church, specifically for the
church on moral injury. Um, and so
we hope that uh, that will be a blessing for the
church in the future.
Um, and some other stuff about
me you can find out on our church's
website@florencechristian.org
(53:27):
Florence in Kentucky. Uh, there's
a lot of Florence Christian churches around, so it's got to be the one in
Kentucky. Also,
uh, we've got a, the church has a Facebook
page and we also have a YouTube channel.
So uh, you can find sermons and,
and um, meditations, uh,
and daily devotions, those kinds of things on those
(53:50):
channels. So um, feel free to check
it out.
>> Loren (53:54):
Great. Great. Well, thanks so much for the conversation.
Really appreciate your perspectives here. Something uh,
we could do, folks should do more of we try to
do here at this podcast. Leave folks with a word of
peace. So may God's peace be with you.
>> Susan (54:09):
And with you you. God bless you.
>> Loren Richmond (54:18):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the connect with us for form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But
(54:39):
before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks and go in
peace.
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