The Scandal of Ordaining Women: the Legacy of the Philadelphia Eleven with Margo Guernsey

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Loren (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha
Tatarnic welcomes Margot Guernsey to the show.
Margot is a documentary director, producer,
impact strategist, and founder of Time Travel
Productions. Her films include Councilwoman,
no Time to Fail, the Officials and the
Philadelphia 11. Prior to film,

(01:05):
Margo worked as a union organizer,
nonprofit development director, and Spanish
English translator. Margot's work has
received support from Chicken and Egg Pictures,
ITVS Catapult Film Fund,
Good Pitch Perspective Fund, Ford
Foundation, CerDNA UH foundation, and
LEF Moving Images Fund, among others.

(01:28):
And she was a Film Independent Fast Track
Fellow. She speaks both Spanish and
English and holds an MFA in film from the University
of Miami, an MA in history from
UMass Amherst, and a BA in
history from Brown University.
Margot teaches producing as affiliated faculty
at Emerson College and is a member of the

(01:49):
Documentary Producers alliance and Global
Impact Producers Alliance. A
reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
review, and share Future Christian with a friend. You can
connect with Martha, Loren and Future Christian on
Instagram. You can send us an email
laurensonatemediaprouh.com

(02:12):
with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your voice and how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.

>> Martha Tatarnic (02:30):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host for
today's episode, Martha Tatarnic, and I'm
really thrilled today to be joined by Margo
Guernsey, who is the producer and director of
the really important film the Philadelphia Eleven.
Welcome, Margo.

>> Speaker D (02:48):
Hi Martha. It's really, really a pleasure to be here. I'm
looking forward to our conversation.

Yeah, I'm so looking forward to our conversation.
Um, obviously I want to dig into
the documentary and talk all about that, but we
always begin our podcasts with a few opening
questions just to set the stage and help our
listeners get to know you a little bit. So maybe
Margo, you can just share with us a bit about your

(03:12):
faith journey, what it has looked like in the past
and what it looks like now.

>> Speaker D (03:18):
Yes, thank you for that question.
I often start these talks by saying I am
not Episcopalian because I made a film
about the Episcopal Church and have spent the last 10 years
hanging out with some amazing Episcopal priests.
Um, but I was raised in a UCC church in
Western Massachusetts. Um, and

(03:39):
we actually. The Episcopal church across the street
had a priest who was a woman. So I was born in
1974 and I had no idea that that
was unique. Which is another piece of. When I found out
about this story. It turns out she was one of the first.

Oh my gosh.

>> Speaker D (03:55):
Not one of the original women who are in the film.
But in the early 80s there were only a few women
who at that point had been ordained and were serving
parishes, and she was one of them. So I learned about
that through the making of this film.
Um, and it also helped me understand
a little bit more about why I was so surprised

(04:15):
when I first heard about this story because I lived in a
very small town, so I would have seen her walking around town with her
collar. Um, yeah.
Uh, so the,
um. Yeah. So I was raised
in a UCC church. I spent a
long time in my 20s and 30s
not going to church and feeling pretty alienated

(04:37):
from the structures of
institutional church. Not feeling like
it was a spiritual space for me or a place to connect with
God and just not feeling,
um, not feeling connected. I don't want to say I'm not
feeling seen, but just not feeling connected. And
um, when I had kids, this
probably happens to a lot of people. I started seeking

(04:59):
a little bit more. I just wanted them to have a
spiritual grounding in their lives. So I started
going back occasionally, um, but still didn't
feel very connected myself. And through the making of this
film have found,
um, maybe not answers but, but. But been
exploring some questions and actually have started attending church

(05:19):
again locally. Not, not where I grew up, but in the
Boston area. A really great, um, A really
great parish here locally where that's very focused
on love and liberation and equality for all. And I think working
with Episcopal priests that are women for
so long helped me see that
it's not the. My faith or my

(05:39):
connection to Holy Spirit that was hard, but it
was institutions that just didn't,
um, that were patriarchal. Like to be blunt about it, right?
Where, where the. The. Even. Even with a use
in a UCC church where the language is about
she and he as Holy Spirit. It just the rules
and it just felt very intellectual and not connected actually

(06:00):
to the way I connect with um, the sacred.
And so I'm still on the Journey. But this, making
this film, the unexpected, um, gift
was to bring me a little bit closer to faith.

Wow, that is really something because I guess
I did just imagine that you might be
Episcopalian given, uh, what
this film is all about. Um, but
so interesting that that has
reignited that journey in that particular way.
And I mean, obviously we're gonna get all
into it and so on, but that

(06:33):
idea of like, normalizing
women in leadership, like, I. I have a lot of
thoughts about that as well. Um,
so, yeah, excited to talk about that.
But before we, um, get. Get
into the documentary, is there a
spiritual practice that you're finding meaningful

(06:53):
right now that uh, that is
helping on that journey?

>> Speaker D (06:59):
Um, you know, my meditation
practice is the other way that I've reconnected in
this journey. Um, and I think that,
um, that's as spiritual. I mean, I.
Like I said, I have started attending church on a regular basis, but
I would say that both the meditation
and the sort of being in church

(07:20):
community and worship, um, have
both been.

Yeah, well. And maybe I can just
dig a little bit more too because
obviously, you know, we have a lot of, uh, writers
and church, uh, leaders on the
podcast.
I don't know that we've had a, ah,
film director before. Um, so this
isn't normally in our opening questions, but can you

(07:45):
just share a little bit about your background
as somebody who makes
documentaries, somebody who makes films? Because it
also sounds like that is an avenue of,
um, of spiritual
opening for you as well.

>> Speaker D (08:03):
Thank you for that question. Um, yeah, I
actually didn't start as a filmmaker out of
college. I was a union organizer. I was in college.
I studied history and um, what I
called community studies. I went to a school that allowed you to put together your own
major. So it was political science and sociology really combined,
um, and was a union

(08:23):
organizer, um, when I graduated for many years.
Um, and that work, while I still believe in,
um, was just burning me out. And I
could sense that it wasn't spiritual or otherwise
supportive. Right. It just wasn't. It wasn't,
um. It wasn't a space where I was thriving as
a person. And um. And

(08:44):
that's what began the journey to filmmaking, which was,
I won't take you into the weeds, but. And then ended up,
um, in going back to school and getting an
MFA and pivoting over to filmmaking, which. The act
of storytelling, which. The way that we engage in
storytelling is a deep storytelling. It's
actually, you know, you're exploring the meaning

(09:04):
beyond the meaning. So it's the facts of what have happened in this
case with this film. It's something that happened in the past, but it's
also the meaning below that. And what does this mean? What did it mean for the
people who participated and what gave them the courage to do
what they did? And so you're really peeling back the
layers, um, to
tell the story in a way that's engaging. We say

(09:24):
emotionally engaging, but I'm actually starting to say
that's engaging so that we see ourselves in these people
like they're human, like us. Right. So how can we in
the present day engage with where they
were at 50 years ago in this case?
Um, so the act of story, the act of filmmaking
is an act of storytelling, which is really a deep

(09:44):
dive into human connection.
Um, and I think you're right to say this is in many
ways it is a spiritual practice. Um, I don't
think all filmmakers are as aware of that. And maybe the
filmmaking would be stronger if they were. I think it's something
that, you know, I'm coming into also myself.
Um, but that was my journey in, in a nutshell, the.

(10:05):
The jerk. Well, we'll talk about the journey to this film probably.

Yeah, but you're like, it's certainly not
mere reporting. Like, you're not just kind of
constructing, uh,
uh, a journalistic take on,
um, events of the past.
And I'm currently completely
lost in 16th century Tudor England
in the book that I'm reading right now. And so that question

(10:31):
of like, okay, so this is the story,
but why does it matter? And why does it matter
for us, I think is
front and center.
So we've teased this incredible, uh,
film, the Philadelphia eleven. But, uh, for
those of our listeners who haven't heard about

(10:52):
it yet or aren't aware of what this is
about, maybe you can start by
giving uh, some broad brushstrokes
of the story.

>> Speaker D (11:04):
Right. So for those who don't know, um, in
1974, after many, many years
of lobbying for change in the Episcopal Church so that women
could be ordained as priests, a, ah, group of women
who were, um, ordained as deacons and
had gone through all of the training and the discernment process
that's required by the church to become a priest,

(11:24):
um, but were told they could not take that final step because of their
gender, they got together and decided
to move forward and organize a service
that would be outside of tradition, outside of,
um, expectations, outside of what the church
had said was the right way to do things.
Um, and the service was held in Philadelphia at the Church

(11:44):
of the Advocate. Um, this was a group of white women
and this was the only Episcopal Church willing to hold the service.
And it's noteworthy, I think, that it was a black urban church
in North Philly, um, and the
service, and there were three bishops who agreed to um,
ordain the women. And so that service was held in
1974. And the film is their journey. It's their
story told primarily by. Not primarily,

(12:07):
exclusively by the women, the people in the story.
The people who were the women ordained and some
of their allies.

Wow. Okay. And then there is also
the Washington Four, which
gets named a little bit in the film as well.

>> Speaker D (12:23):
Yeah. And so that was in 1974. And
then part of, um,
after the ordination, um, the bishops
met and decided and proclaimed that the
ordations were not valid. And the women
continued to um, push forward
and they started celebrating Eucharist, both public, privately
and publicly. Um, and then another group

(12:46):
of women stepped forward, same situation.
They had, were ordained as deacons, they'd gone through the discernment process,
um, and a church in Washington D.C. uh, agreed to
hold the service. And those, there were four of them,
uh, so they're called the Washington Ford. Many, many
people who were around then and who look back on it
now say that that was important because it

(13:07):
needed to be clear that women weren't going to go away, that you couldn't
just sort of erase what happened in Philadelphia in 1974,
that this was just going to keep happening. And so
the so called Washington Four were an important part of that.

Yeah.
Okay, well, there's lots to dig into here,
but, um, but why don't you tell us how this project
came about from growing up in that
small town and seeing that
ah, Episcopal priest across the road to
making this um, documentary.
How did you come to this project?

>> Speaker D (13:41):
I was working on another film.
Um, it was in development. It's actually a film
that we never made. But I was doing some research
and I stumbled on some correspondence with the Reverend
Carter Hayward. And I had also recently
read Reverend Ah, Dr. Pauli Marie's
autobiography. So in her autobiography, and for anyone who
hasn't read it, it is mesmerizing. It's extremely well written,

(14:03):
it's engaging, I highly recommend it. Uh,
in that autobiography she talks
about being in Philadelphia at the
service. Um, and I'm not going to try to
paraphrase how she talks about it. It's just beautiful.
Um, so that was the first I'd heard of it, but it
didn't really resonate. And so I

(14:23):
always laugh that Carter had so much grace with me,
because I really didn't do my research before I
jumped on that call with her. This was before we were doing video calls. So there
was no face to face, the voice call. And
I didn't know who I was talking to. I did not realize the
role that she had played both in organizing and in
leadership over all of these decades. And so in
asking her the questions that I was asking her, she really

(14:46):
had to also tell me her story. And she did it very humbly. And,
um, as I was hearing her talk, it was
almost like my moment of a call. I
really felt like, wow, I'm really working on the wrong film.
This is the film I need and should be working
on. And it was another three years before we
started filming. It was like a quiet call, but then it would just

(15:07):
keep coming back to me until I finally
let the other one go and move to this film. And,
um, so we started filming in 2015.
And, um. Yeah. And here we are today. So that's.
That is how. That is sort of the back and forth of how
it happened. But I would also say that
the story to me has always been important

(15:27):
to tell because for the
same reason that I was shocked that I didn't know and understand
it as a student of the civil rights movement and a
student of American history in the 20th century. So from
the perspective of this is, if you're. If you're
studying religious history in the United States and you're not being told about
this, then why. Why is it being silenced? Like, what's. Why

(15:48):
is. It's critical. Right.
And also as somebody, as. It's, uh, you know, it's integral to the civil
rights movement in the United States as well. And so it
felt like it had been left out. But maybe more importantly,
it's also a story for everyone. Right. It's not
just a story for women, um, who are of a
certain faith or who are called to the priesthood. It's really

(16:08):
a story about what it means to follow your call,
whether that's a call associated with your faith or
otherwise, and follow it regardless of whether
society tells you you're not eligible, you're not eligible to be who
you're called to be. Right. It is. How do. How to follow that call
with grace, um, in a world that might not
want you to be who you're called to be.

Yeah, I think that doesn't it for.

>> Speaker D (16:29):
A lot of people.

I think that's really important. And I think it's really important to
say, like, yeah, it's not just for women.
It's not for women in churches.
It's not just for women in leadership.
The story here is a story that we all need to
hear for a whole variety of reasons.
And I guess that kind of prompts my next

(16:50):
question because,
um, women have.
We've just come to the 50th
anniversary of that ordination
in Philadelphia. Um, that would have been last
year. So I can imagine
that, uh, that feels like a
pretty good milestone, um, around which to

(17:12):
be releasing the film. But as I was watching
it, I, ah, was feeling like it was timely
in a whole bunch of ways. And
uh, I wonder about that kind
of call as well, that kind of
providential piece of all of this. With the
film being released now,
um, I have thoughts about it, but I'm interested

(17:35):
in your thoughts about why this feels like the time.

>> Speaker D (17:39):
We didn't plan for this to be the time. Uh, you know,
in 2015 when we started filming, the world
was different. Um, some of the issues
we face today definitely existed, but in a different
way. Um, and there was no
way in 2015 to understand the world
in 2025.
Um, and

(18:02):
we didn't. We, We. I will say I had a
couple conversations with Carter early on
and said we're independent filmmakers, which means it could
take a while to get this film done. We're really focused on
interviewing everybody quickly. Well, since you're all aging, we
wanted to make sure we had those interviews. Um, and
I remember saying to her, really, we'd love to

(18:22):
get it done in a few years, but the worst case scenario is going to be the
50th anniversary. And meaning that like
at have 10 years till the 50th anniversary. So
we'll definitely make it. So ironically,
uh, I mean we actually released the film. The first
film festival we screened at was in 2023.
Uh, but it really did, um, lend itself well to a

(18:42):
2024 celebration of 50 years.
Um, so that part maybe was intentional
in some subtle ways. Um, but
the. The world that we live in today
with the aspirations of, uh, would be dictators
taking away the rights of um, so many
people. Um, there was no way to

(19:03):
imagine that. And I do think that
some of the lessons for me from this story
have to do with solidarity. They
succeeded because they knew how to stand in solidarity
with each other. And there's some examples of that in the film.
Um, but I think often, um, or not
often, but sometimes people with

(19:23):
similar, um, views of
a just society where folks on the margins
are, have all of the ability to live out
full lives that they're just like everybody
else. So there aren't really. So a perfect world would
be. There aren't people on the margins anymore. Right. Everybody can,
can live fully in their, in their humanity.

(19:44):
Um, but we, we can fight with each other about what
that looks like and how to get there. And there's. We're all
human and we're. It's actually healthy to debate and disagree,
but sometime splinters, um,
a movement. And they knew how to stand in solidarity.
There was so much disagreement about whether Philadelphia
was even appropriate. Is it appropriate to hold a

(20:04):
service that is, um, regarded as
outside. I keep saying outside the norms because the
women themselves, um, always
remind me that there's nothing about church law that
they broke. Right. There's nothing about theology that was
broken. Right. In fact, the language in the canon
law was gender normal, neutral. And so. Ah,

(20:24):
but they did break with tradition. And the hierarchy in the church
had very clearly told them not to do this. Mhm. So it was an
act of ecclesiastical disobedience in that way.
Um, so there was so much disagreement about whether that was
appropriate. There was so much disagreement about
whether and how women who were not,
who were not straight, um, should come out when they might come out.

(20:45):
Was it safe? I mean, there were, but they, they all stood in
solidarity in so many ways with each other. Also, at
a time when the, um,
women's movement wasn't particularly known for
standing alongside, uh, women of color and
the civil rights movement wasn't known for standing for
women's rights. Right. It was a time when there was a lot of

(21:05):
prioritization of one. Right. We're going to deal with one
injustice now as opposed to all the injustices.
And yet this group stood in solidarity. Right. It was
black people and white people standing together for
gender equality, um, with full knowledge,
although they weren't public about it, the bishops who ordained them
knew that some of the women, um,
were gay or queer. Um,

(21:28):
so while they weren't public about it, they were very aware.
So, you know, it was a, it was a moment, it was a lesson in
solidarity.

Wow. Um, yeah, that's quite
remarkable. And
um, you know, you noted that it
was all white women who were ordained, but
that that act of the black
church standing up with them
is a big part of the story.
That's quite amazing.

(21:56):
How did they sort of define
their participation or their support
of it? Like how did they, how
did they come to choose to do
that?

>> Speaker D (22:10):
My understanding is that some of it has to
do with trust built over years, which
I think is significant. For us all to understand
the Bishop DeWitt and the Reverend Suzanne
Hyatt. Um, so Bishop DeWitt was one of the ordaining
bishops. He was in Pennsylvania. Sue Hyatt was one
of the leaders of this group of women, were very,

(22:31):
very good friends and allies of,
uh, Father Washington, who was the rector at the church of the
Atmican. So, um, they
had done a lot of work on racial justice and
economic justice in Philly together
on other issues. And that,
um, is likely to have been a
big reason that they could then partner on this.

(22:54):
It wasn't a cold call. It wasn't, you know, I don't know.
You could you support this? Right. They trusted each other.
Um, Father Washington took it to the
congregation and asked the congregation if they
were willing to support this and was clear that he wasn't
going to do it without their support. And they, in Bishop
Harris's words, overwhelmingly said yes. And Bishop Harris
was a member of the congregation. I think she might have been on the

(23:16):
vestry.

Oh, right. Yes. Okay.

>> Speaker D (23:19):
Yeah. So, um, but I think, you know, it
is about.
Have trust built over years. In addition
to Father Washington having been a leader,
um, in the civil rights movement, he hosted Black
Panther gatherings at his church. Again,
that movement was not always supportive of gender
issues, but that doesn't mean that individuals in the movement were not.

(23:39):
And in this case, he was.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's such an important
ingredient to note as well when we're
sort of considering resistance today,
um, those pieces around solidarity, but the
trust that is needed for that solidarity to happen.

>> Speaker D (23:57):
Um.

Sounds like, worth bookmarking
just remembering all of that.
Um, so you did note that you
wanted to start the interviewing right
away. Um, obviously, 50 years
ago, uh, people who were
involved in those first
ordinations, um, would be

(24:19):
well into, um, their
more elderly years at this point. How many
of the 11 were you able to speak to?
Um, what surprised you about
their stories?

>> Speaker D (24:35):
Five of the 11 are
essentially the narrators of the film.
Um, we were also able to interview
the Reverend Betty Bonchis and Sabley, uh,
and also the Reverend Emily Hewitt. So two more.
And those interviews, um, we ended up not
using because, um, they
just were. We were. It was too late in their lives for them

(24:58):
to be the storytellers that you need in film.

Okay.

>> Speaker D (25:01):
It was just an issue of age. Um,
so five of the women are the
storytellers. And,
um, you
know, at the beginning of the process, I think
it was the Reverend Merrill Bittner who said, you know, we're all so
different. Or maybe Someone else said.
I think they all have told us that over the years. Yeah.

(25:23):
And the more we were able to
meet with them and speak with them and get to know them,
the more that resonates. And,
um, I think that's also important to lift up. We are all very different.
We have lots of things about us that can be different, even if our
skin and our gender is the same.
And that difference can bring even more

(25:44):
powerful collaboration.

Right.

>> Speaker D (25:46):
You can't. And being the same isn't as strong
as leaning on each other's strengths.
Um, yeah, and they are. They are very different and also
very. Some of them very conservative, some of them very liberal. You know, they
all. Different upbringings. Different. Different
goals in life. Different. Just very different. And all
very powerful and. And courageous and.
And. And steadfast in their calls.

Yeah, yeah. They, um.
That comes across in the film very much like
that. Uh, each one of them speaks with such
a unique voice, and I like
that. Uh, note that
being the same
or being different is actually a
strength.

(26:30):
Um, I want to get
into this piece around,
um, disobedience
and that, you know, this had come
before General Convention, I think
that's the name in the Episcopal Church for
the national gathering, um, where these kinds

(26:50):
of decisions are made. And, uh,
it had been defeated at least a few
times at General Convention around the ordination of
women. Um, there's some
clips of, you know, some of the
statements that people have made around
why women should not be ordained.

(27:11):
Um, certainly I've
seen this conversation in the
Anglican Church of Canada over the years
around equal marriage.
Um, and
there's kind of always, ah,
caution that is put

(27:32):
out around, um,
you know, we need to act together, we need to
be ready together.
Um, and we need to honor the
bonds of relationship across the
institution. Um, and on the other
side of things is the
argument that, no, actually, like, we need to

(27:54):
test the fruits of the Spirit. And if
we kind of wait around
for everybody to be ready for. We're never
gonna be ready. Like, we're never gonna do anything.
Um, so
how do you interpret that piece of the story?
The importance of, um, these

(28:15):
11 and the three bishops and
the variety of other supporters being
willing to take that step out
and say, okay, like, ready or not, here
we come.

>> Speaker D (28:31):
People are afraid of change. And I think that's a. That's
a normal human instinct. And there's
probably very good evolutionary reasons for us to
fear change, especially, um, because it can be
destabilizing. Um, I really
love the way you just framed this as
testing the fruits of the Spirit. Uh, I think it's a

(28:51):
beautiful way to engage in
conversation about why it's important to,
to be willing to evolve. Right. To be
willing to engage where the Spirit is taking us,
because it will only take us to better places where we can all be
more fully ourselves. Um, I,
you know, the hindsight is 20 20,

(29:13):
and a lot of the conversations about what would have happened had
they not moved forward are all just speculation.
Um, I think that it is true.
I believe just by
watching, um, that, you know,
watching the dynamics of how these conversations unfold, that had they
not gone forward, the church would have continued to get more

(29:33):
conservative. Um, and we would have a
conservative Episcopal Church. Allah.
You know, the Southern Baptists in the United States. Right.
Um, there, there was no,
um. If we're not willing, as sort
of in your words, to test the fruits of the Spirit, if we're not willing
to allow these women to follow their call, there's

(29:53):
nothing that will make us willing tomorrow. There's nothing that's
going to change the next day. Right. Uh,
we need to experience it. And Meryl talks about this a
lot, and it's in the film a little bit, but she talks about it a
lot when she speaks about her experience in person. That
her job, so called. She never thought her
call to the priesthood would be this, but her job, her, her

(30:14):
job call became to tell her story. Right. She said,
I, people needed to see a priest, a woman
celebrating communion, and people needed to see me at the
altar, like the embodiment of who I am.
People needed to see that. That became
my call. And Carter talks about also, like, who
knew that celebrating the Eucharist publicly would end up being
my priesthood. Like, that's not why I wanted to

(30:36):
get into this. But people needed to experience it,
to understand it. And so had they not gone
forward, people wouldn't have experienced it.
And so the trend, it is
highly likely that the church would have just gotten very
conservative and then wouldn't have opened up either
to gen, to, you know, um, to equality
for those who are, you know, identify as queer and

(30:59):
otherwise. So, you know, I think, um, we would have a
very different church today.

Yeah, I mean, even for me,
like, the number of times that I have
gone into a church where they haven't had women
in leadership before, it doesn't happen so much now,
but it certainly happened earlier in,
um, in my priestly ministry.
And I would get these kind of surprised

(31:24):
comments either after leading a service or after
getting to know me for a couple of months, like,
oh, like I was really opposed to this. But
like, you're okay, you know, like,
but it is just kind of being opposed to
like the unknown. Like we,
we don't know what. We don't know. Um,

(31:45):
obviously the proof is in the pudding. In
1976 the General Convention did
vote to allow the ordination of women, which I find
to be like quite ah, an amazingly
short trajectory from this
great big step to the church than
like getting on board.
Um, it comes out a little bit

(32:07):
in the film, but I'm really
interested in your thoughts on
like the price that
these women paid. But also the three bishops,
also the male priests who invited
these newly ordained women into their churches
to celebrate communion. All of them were

(32:28):
operating outside of what
the, the church as a. Who said they should
be doing. Like at what cost?

>> Speaker D (32:39):
Yeah, um, the cost was
significant and you know, the film. The
reason we didn't end the film with the 1976
convention is because it felt important
for this. Both the cost to the women
and you know, if the two year turnaround
on the one hand feels like, wow, they

(32:59):
really got their organizing together and
got it down. On the other hand,
it's been decades of work to,
for women priests to really follow their call
in the church. Right. If you talk to anybody who
served a parish in the 80s, even getting a parish job
was hard, maybe still hard in some

(33:19):
places. And when it passed
General Convention, there was a time we were going to put this in the film, but it
got. Got a little bit too in the weeds for a film.
But it, there was also,
um, I don't know if you'd call it a rule or a
canon or something. Whatever the, the terminology
passed. That was, um, that wouldn't. That basically
was called the conscience clause and it allowed a

(33:42):
bishop to choose. Really what was passed was
bishops are now permitted to choose to
ordain women if it is. Follows their conscience, but they can
also choose not to. Uh, right. So there were
many, many dioceses for a long time that, where the
bishop just said it's against my conscience. And so no.
And then women had to choose to either change diocese, which as

(34:02):
you can imagine is a huge. It's. You're rooted up from family and
community and church community or not follow
their call. And um, so that went on for
decades. Um, and so it is. And
the work, so the work continues. And
so I would say it's been decades of work.
Um, which is why it's so relevant that

(34:22):
the cost was so extreme. And you know, the cost,
you could look at it today not so
Unfamiliar to those who are getting
attacked in death threats and whose families have to go into hiding.
I mean, a lot of the cost was having to deal with
constant threats and constant press
calls and being in the public eye when you
weren't called to be a public person. Right. None of them

(34:44):
were called to that kind of public life.
Um, you know, there were,
you know, there were some of the early ordinations of women had
security at the ordination because of
threats. Um, so it was very real. And for a
long time.

Yeah, the first
ordinations of women in the Anglican Church of Canada
happened just down the street from where I am
right now. And a couple of my friends were
servers at that service, and the police
were there. Like, the threats were real.
Um, what about the men
who supported them? Like, did they. Did they

(35:23):
lose professional credibility
opportunities? Like, was that.
Did they kind of suffer as allies?

>> Speaker D (35:32):
Yeah, they did. Um, the story in the
film, um, the film focuses
on two specific male priests who were.
Who allowed them to celebrate Eucharist in their
churches and were then put on trial. And the Reverend Peter
Beebe was never. Was banished from the church, never
allowed back in, had his priestly

(35:52):
orders, um, forget the term, but, like, taken from him.
No longer an Episcopal priest in the church's eyes.
I think in his eyes, he's a priest.
Um, and the Reverend
Will Bill went also was convicted at
trial. He was in a diocese that was a little
bit more friendly, and his orders weren't taken

(36:12):
from him. Um, but they suffered. You
know, life. I mean, Peter Beebe ended up with a different
career and a different life. You know, it changed everything for him.

Yeah.

>> Speaker D (36:22):
Um, and, um, other allies
to a lesser extent. You know, they did not go after the Church
of the Advocate. There was a risk there that they could have, that they
might have, but, um, they did not.
Um, and the bishops who,
um, ordained the women were retired intentionally,
so there was less professional

(36:42):
consequence. And maybe that is why they were
willing to do it.

Interesting. That's interesting.
Yeah. So enormous
costs, I think. Um,
certainly I, and, um,
other women in ministry could
report a lot of our experiences
over the years. A lot of the experiences that have been

(37:06):
shared with, uh, the women who went before
us and,
um, like,
is ongoing in a significant way. And also
the church of 50 years later is
quite remarkably different than it was
50 years ago. Uh, and I,

(37:28):
you know, I try to keep that in the
foreground of my, uh,
purview, because, like,
it. There's a lot to be grateful for.
There's a lot to be grateful for about my 20 years in
ministry versus what those
first 20 years would have been like.

(37:49):
I want to circle back to,
um, your experience of growing
up with it being quite normal that across
the street is this Episcopalian female
priest. And certainly I've
always served or I've always lived
in an Anglican church where women have been ordained,
they've been ordained longer than I've been alive.

(38:12):
And so I kind of grew up with that, uh, being
pretty blissfully normal. I
wasn't as a kid realizing that this
was such a recent fight that,
um, the women that
I saw in leadership were probably
paying a significant cost to be there.

(38:33):
Um, whereas I also
grew up in the classical musical world and I never
saw women conductors or heard about women
composers. I did grow up in a church where
I saw female priests. And
um, and that matters. Like
representation matters. It matters to see that

(38:53):
embodied. As you already said, um,
it just goes a significant way
in what we imagine is possible.
Uh, and at the same time, like 50 years
on the scale of 2,000 years
is like, we're still really early into

(39:14):
this journey. So,
like, where do you see the church being
different now because of the past
50 years and where, like, where
is the change still very much
needed?

>> Speaker D (39:31):
You know, I think having that representation
is also, also gives us courage, right?
Mhm. So it's, it's, it's about embodying the
change so that we all can become something new.
And where. It's, it also gives
courage and permission to those who might
be fearful of taking that step. Right. And I think that's

(39:53):
another way that it helps the evolution on
this journey continue. Um,
and not a surprise, right, to
figure out that, oh, in fact, um,
God didn't say that only men can
play this role. That was people on Earth, right. Like,
it's not the Holy Spirit who made that decree. So, you

(40:14):
know, learning to figure, to walk this path of, um. Right. This
is not, this is actually about earthly institutions and human
and humanity and less about Holy
Spirit and how as humans do, we start to figure
that out together. And um, that,
and I say that with your
paralleled example of classical music, right. Like this

(40:34):
is about what, how humans have organized on Earth, but it
really has nothing to do with that which is sacred and that which
is, um, connected to God.
Um, and yet we're still on this journey. And as you say,
50 years is not nothing compared to 2000,
which is, I think, why it's so hard. I, you know,
it might be that we as individual human

(40:54):
beings are not on Earth for very long, but we
Carry with us that which we've learned from our
ancestors. And it makes it hard for people to
embrace change.
Um, I. You know, as
I. I feel like I'm Episcopal adjacent, but
I really am not Episcopalian. And so I've heard
a lot about where the church is at and where it needs to go

(41:17):
through, um, all this work over these years, but
I don't feel like I'm the best person,
um, to really voice that,
because it's not in my lived, um,
experience. Even though I've been, I mean, Episcopal.
Episcopal services at this point.
Um, I do think the church
is called to have something to say. To say about what's happening in

(41:39):
the world now. Um, you know,
it's, um.
It's. It's that we're at a pivotal. Yet another
pivotal. Pivotal. Can you say that moment
in, um, and
silence, um, really
isn't an option? And I think that that's starting to happen.
Um, it's been slow, but it's starting to.

Yeah. And, you know, maybe that is,
uh, an important gift of
this being relatively recent, that,
uh, women have been ordained in the
church is that,
um, you know,
we're more tuned in to that
reality of, um, the

(42:23):
difference that it makes when people stand together and
are courageous and speak up rather
than being silent. Um, I also
just think. And again, I would like, also
draw in that parallel of the fight for equal marriage
that has been such a big part of my
years in the Anglican Church of Canada

(42:44):
is, um.
Like, I want to be part of a church where
we know that we're a work in progress.
Like, where we know that
the Holy Spirit isn't done with us yet. Like,
that's the kind of church I want to be part of.

(43:04):
Um, as I
said at the beginning, um,
I've been really
down a rabbit hole of that question of why
these stories from the past
are stories for right now.
Um, and the story I've been particularly delving

(43:26):
into is imprint of
female leadership on the
Anglican Church that we have now from 500
years ago.
M. You know,
and I think that, uh, there's
like, one way of looking at that, which is to
say, well, so what? Like,

(43:47):
that's the past. But you said it so beautifully right at
the beginning. Like, this isn't just
reporting the facts. Like, this is,
uh, a story about us
and us today.
Um, why
does this feel like a story that needs to be

(44:09):
told? Where is the
connection to us today?

>> Speaker D (44:15):
I think, for one, is that in a moment where
speaking truth to power is critical
to our survival, drawing on the
courage and the knowledge that our ancestors
have had to do the same is incredibly important.
We're not in this alone. We've seen this rodeo
before. Um, we've seen it in different formats

(44:36):
and in different ways, but it's not new to the human experience.
Um, and to see
that there is really only one
answer to stopping it, which is to
stand up in solidarity and with courage and to speak the truth.
Right. And to. So to know. To draw that strength
from our. Those who. On whose shoulders we walk

(44:59):
is incredibly important right now.
Um, yeah.
And. And I also think that, you know, we don't need to repeat
the. The errors of the past. Right. If we don't know
our. There's a famous saying that's along the lines of that,
you know, if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it. If you
don't, you're. When you study the history, you're also studying the future.
So. Right. Um, as human beings, I mean, I think one

(45:21):
of the more fascinating things about studying history
is to the extent that I find that I can
relate. If we're talking about 500 years ago or 2,000
years ago, they may not. The person
I'm feeling connected with might not have had a computer
and might have had to grow all of their own food.
And yet I still connect in every other way with the

(45:42):
love and the hurt and the jealousy and the rage and the
anger and the. And the joy. Right.
We're all still actually human. And
so to be able to understand that
and then understand where those who
have come before us have succeeded and where maybe they've
stumbled and we can build on that. Right. Learning about our
past helps us build on that. Helps us draw strength, draw

(46:04):
courage. Um, and helps us understand that
even if we don't learn our past, our past is. We are
living it. We're living it in our DNA. We're living it in the way our
society's organized. We're living it in our traditions.
We're living it in our churches. We're living. And how we understand
the spirit like it's. We. We're living
it. And to understand it only opens our eyes
more.

Yeah. That is so beautifully put at.
We are really good at repeating the
mistakes of the past. But. But we don't have to.
Like, there's an alternative. And I.
I think that piece around solidarity that you
named earlier, to see that as a
layered thing like that, we can also

(46:45):
draw in solidarity from past
stories for the fight of today.
Um, like what an important thing to realize
there's a quote in the film that I
just really jumped out at me, which is
from Meryl, and she says, you need to

(47:06):
speak the truth even if your voice
shakes.

>> Speaker D (47:10):
And.

And uh, I love that
vulnerable naming of the
legitimate fear, um, that went
into this. But also that
sense of call and that
courage. Um,
uh. Who do you hope is going to see this

(47:33):
film and feel
drawn into that courage and that vulnerability?

>> Speaker D (47:40):
Meryl has another one, um, near the end of the film
also where she taught. Where she
ends up leaving the church for her own mental health because
she just needs a break from being
in the public eye. I'm giving away the film. But.
But in her statement of, uh, leaving,
she calls on everyone not just to.

(48:02):
To talk the talk, but to walk the walk.
Um, and don't participate in institutions that
don't fully see everyone as human. Those aren't her words, those are mine. But
that's. I'm paraphras. It's very powerful.
Um, I
hope, um, that anybody who feels at
all like they can draw strength from these

(48:23):
stories of the past will see the film.
I think that there's particular interest
in these stories amongst women who are
clergy or feel called to be clergy or.
And amongst women of faith, maybe
similar to myself, who, um, haven't felt.
Have felt lost in a patriarchal church and still

(48:43):
yearn for that, um,
space to worship and space for a deeper spiritual
connection. Um,
and anybody, I think anybody who
finds strength in Stories from the Past,
um, is a film for
you. We have with the film for

(49:04):
many years, have said in a sort of a. More,
uh. Uh, have said, you know, we want the film to reach a wide
audience. And it's kind of a vague way to say we want
people to know the story. We don't want this story to be silenced. We want this
story to be part of history.
Um, and I've learned that there's so much
media out there that it's also important to say here's. Here's the

(49:25):
people I think will really benefit from this story.

Yeah, I really co. Sign
this. Like, I think that it is.
It is for a general audience. It isn't
just a niche thing. Obviously there are particular
groups who are going to feel like. Especially,
um. Like
it is their lived experience.

(49:49):
But this is part of telling
the stories that matter. Like, this is part of
telling the stories of how we have fought for
equality and um, what that
takes, uh, and why it
matters. So, yeah,
um, I think everybody needs to

(50:10):
see this film.
Um, and I'm interested to know
how it has been received so far. So you're
like, a couple of years into
first film festival releases.
What has been the reaction?

>> Speaker D (50:27):
I mean, we have been astounded
at the number of people who want to host
screenings. So when we first released the film,
both for strategic reasons to reach this goal of
a wider audience, and because,
um, I know from experience that watching
a film alone in your living room or on your

(50:48):
phone is very different from watching in community
and then unpacking it together. So from a
distribution perspective, if you just kind of put the
film out there, then distributors won't take it. So there's
a reason to not just kind of, like, put it online.
And. And I really wanted to encourage folks to gather and
watch in community together. So after that first

(51:09):
film festival, we launched this community screening tour. And
we're close, if not beyond 500 screenings
in person, people gathering, and these are the screenings that
register. I am sure that DVDs have been passed
around and other screenings have happened. Um, but of those who
actually officially gone through the process and registered. So that blew my
mind. We did not expect the numbers to be that high. Uh,

(51:29):
independent filmmakers will tell you, like, like, often people are like, oh, we
had 15 screenings, we had 30. We're like, we're over 500.
Sorry.

Congratulations.

>> Speaker D (51:38):
A lot of interest. Um, and then we did,
um, get it onto PBS. As you probably know, it was
actually 90% of the market for public
television in the United States. Um, uh,
programmed it between March and now. So in the past
three months. So it's had very good market coverage in
the United States. It's available through good docs for

(51:58):
universities and colleges.
Um, so it's been a great, great run.
And. And, um, there's still,
you know, I think a lot of people have it. You know, it's an independent
film, so we don't have marketing, so it's not like you're going to hear about it
on your TikTok feed. It's just. That's not
going to happen. Or on a billboard. Right? Or. So,

(52:18):
you know, that's the gap. I also teach filmmaking at
Emerson College, so I'm often talking about this. But the gap between.
There's so many films out there that viewers would love to
see but just don't know about. There's a gap between
knowledge of. And this is true of all the films you and I don't know about that we
would love to see. There's big films with huge
marketing dollars, and those are the films we know about. And then these
kinds of Films you have to keep telling a friend about because there

(52:41):
isn't enough m. There's no marketing power for us to reach a
greater audience except by people telling us.
Um, so I mean, we have social media. We try to do the things you
can do, but we can only do so much.
Um, so I think there's still a lot of people
out there who don't even know the film exists for them to
watch it. So hopefully this will help reach a few more.

Yeah, so everybody who's listening, you need to tell a friend about
this. But also like, how can people
host a screening? Is that still a
thing?

>> Speaker D (53:10):
Philadelphia 11Film.com
is our website and if you click on host a
screening, it's absolutely still a thing. Um,
we have a sliding scale starting at $25 to make
it accessible to all. If $25 isn't
even possible, just send us a quick message on contact
us. We really want as many people as possible to see the film.

(53:31):
Um, and it is the format of hosting a screening. Although you could
host a gathering in your living room with your neighbors, it doesn't need to
be, you know, at a local theater or at your church. It can be very
informal. Um, we are
planning on putting it on a streaming platform
eventually. The big streamers don't take these kinds of
independent films. So it wouldn't be like Hulu or Netflix. It would be

(53:51):
maybe Vimeo or maybe Amazon.
Although I don't, I'm a little, I don't know, I have to decide
whether I actually want to put it on Amazon because we're going to be sending all the people there.
So I'm like, do I really want to give this to Amazon? But, um,
it will be available to rent pretty cheap as
of next year. We just need to wait for six. PBS requires a six
month window before that becomes available. So we're still

(54:11):
in that six month month window. And that's the reason it's not up
streaming yet. But we're ready to. It's been two years. So
once that window is over, we will make, um, it
available to just rent at home. But in the meantime, please host a screening.
It's the best way to watch it. And then you can unpack it together,
talk about, you know, uh, you know,
talk about the history, talk about what it means today.

Yeah, well, I will definitely say, like,
I watched it on my own because
I was going to be doing this interview,
um, and the whole time I was watching
it, I was thinking, I can't wait to show this at our church. I
Can't wait to host a screening because I can't wait to
have discussion with people after.

(54:52):
And, uh, it is the kind
of film that really lends itself to wanting
to talk about it and wanting to talk about
it with your community. So
I'm really encouraging everyone who's listening
to this to click on that button
and get a screening together.

>> Speaker D (55:14):
Yeah. So Philadelphia11film.com
and I'll tell you the secret, which is just if you click on the forums, they come
into my inbox. So I'm pretty good at responding quickly.
Any questions you have about how the process works, just drop
them there.

Okay. That's awesome. And I'm sure that we'll make sure that those
links are in the show notes as well.
Well, I'm, um, incredibly
grateful to get to talk to you today. We do have some closing
questions, but we'll take a quick break
and, uh, come back. Closing
questions.

(55:47):
Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
And I continue to be with Margo
Guernsey. And we're just going to have our
quick Fire wrap up questions.
So, Margo, we always tell our
guests that you can take these questions
as seriously as you want or as not seriously

(56:08):
as you want. They are meant to, um,
just kind of be fun questions that
we ask all of our guests. So
if you were a pope for the day, what
would that 24 hours consist of?

>> Speaker D (56:24):
When I first saw this question, I was very intimidated.
All of a sudden I had an aha. I said, this is not
hard. I would make, change the rules so
women in the Catholic women could be priests.
That is what would happen in the first 24 hours if I were.

Yeah, I love that because, I mean,
we know, like we know from this story,
we know from our experience. We know that those callings
are out there. We know that the Holy Spirit is tapping
women on the shoulder and they're
being roadblocked. So,
yeah, that's a

(56:59):
great answer. And I'd probably be a
little disappointed if that weren't your answer.
To be honest, given subject that
we're talking about today,
is there a theologian or historical Christian
figure, um, who you'd like to meet,
bring back to life, have supper with? Who would it

(57:19):
be?

>> Speaker D (57:21):
I actually should have thought of this one ahead of time.
There are a few whose names elude me.
Um, so I'm not sure I'm gonna have to take. But
I would say after, after spending
close to 10 years with Carter Hayward, she should be on
your list of theologians who you want to have supper with.
Because I have learned so much,

(57:41):
uh, from her writings, from her theology
and from just getting to know her as a personal.

Okay, well that's a good answer.
And I mean it's somebody that you actually have
personal uh, experience with, so that's good
too.
What will history remember from our current time
and place?

>> Speaker D (58:05):
I think the jury's out on this. I think history
will remember whether we were able
to stand together in solidarity to
stop uh, a would be dictator or not. And
that's still happening. It's unfolding.

Yeah, that uh, word pivotal is
descriptive of the time, so
we're not quite sure which way it's going to go.
What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?

>> Speaker D (58:37):
My hope is that
the people of the church continue to follow
a spiritual call for both a church and
a society where everybody truly is
able to live their full selves. Where we,
as I said earlier, where we no longer talk about standing with the
marginalized. I mean Jesus taught us to stand with the

(58:57):
marginalized. But maybe there's a world where there's, there doesn't,
there don't need to be marginalized people where we can all just.

Yeah, I think that's the, that's
the calling. That's where we're supposed to be
headed. Where can people
find more about you?

>> Speaker D (59:17):
Uh, if you go to, if you, if you go
to Philadelphia. 11film.com My bio is
on there but my film company website is
time travel production productions.com
and just click through to the founder page about
us and you can read more about me.

Can I ask what project you're working on
now or is that in the works
yet?

>> Speaker D (59:41):
Yeah, I, you know while working on
this film, um, as you know it took many years so
there were other things going on at the same time. I made two different
films about election officials in the United States. So
um, very much behind the scenes embedded with them.
First. The first film is called no Time to Fail. It's on
Amazon if you want to watch it.

(01:00:02):
Um, and we ah, embedded with election officials
during the 2020 election behind the scenes.
Um, and then the next one is
called the Officials and that one's streaming on
time.com so if you know Time magazine, it's Time,
their, their online version. Um, and
it is sort of a follow up sister film.

(01:00:22):
Um, that is with four
different, um, election officials in four different states and
conservative and urban areas. Um, as they
Prepare for the 2024 election. Under attack. Right? They're
very much under attack. Their integrity is being questioned. And so
it's with the film is with them as they prepare for
the election while their integrity is being questioned. So

(01:00:42):
I've worked on these two films that are very much about upholding
our civil rights and our civic process, um, in
the United States, um, and, you know,
very much will be tested again in 2026. As
you all, um, your listeners know. I
have a couple other projects kind of in
very early stages, um, but so

(01:01:04):
early that we're not, I mean, it's not that we're not
even talking about. I'm not even really. It's more the
development research, trying to figure out where the best, where to go next,
um, in alignment with some of my
other, you know, hopes and dreams.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:18):
So stay tuned, I guess, is the answer there.
Well, thank you so much for your time today, Margo. Thank you
for this film. Thank you for the,
um, for listening to that
calling and uh, the Holy Spirit tapping you
to do this because it feels really timely
and really important.

>> Speaker D (01:01:38):
I appreciate your time and yet the conversation,
um, and to all the listeners, appreciate the work you're all
doing out there.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:01:45):
We always end with the word of peace, so may God's
peace be with you. Margo.

>> Speaker D (01:01:50):
Same to you.

>> Loren Richmond (01:01:58):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But

(01:02:19):
before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the
POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this
out to more people. Thanks. And go in PE.

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