What does it mean for a church to thrive when membership is declining, resources feel scarce, and the future is uncertain?
In this episode, Loren is joined by Kory Wilcoxson and Erin Cash to talk about their book, Thriving Church: What We Can Learn from Faithful Congregations, and the real-world practices of congregations navigating change with courage and clarity.
Drawing from years of congregational research and ministry experience, the conversation explores how churches can remain faithful to their calling without being governed by fear, metrics, or nostalgia. Kory and Erin reflect on the importance of grounding ministry in Scripture, revisiting mission and vision regularly, and honoring the past without being constrained by it.
Rather than equating thriving with growth, the episode makes a case for faithfulness, imagination, and adaptability—especially in mainline Protestant contexts where decline is often assumed to be the whole story.
Topics include:
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Why thriving is not the same as numerical growth
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How fear distorts mission—and how clarity restores it
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What it looks like for a church to be both “dying” and thriving
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Honoring history without letting it become a barrier to change
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Why Scripture still matters deeply for faithful congregations
This episode is a grounded, hopeful conversation for pastors and church leaders discerning how to lead well in seasons of transition.
Rev. Dr. Kory Wilcoxson has served as the Senior Pastor of Crestwood Christian Church in Lexington, Ky., since 2009. Prior to moving to Lexington, he served for twelve years as a pastor in the Chicago and Indianapolis areas. Wilcoxson holds degrees from Indiana University ((BA in Speech Communication), Ohio University (MA in Interpersonal Communication), Christian Theological Seminary (Master of Divinity), and Lexington Theological Seminary (Doctor of Divinity). Wilcoxson has served in a number of leadership positions within the Kentucky Region and Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination, including moderator of the Kentucky Regional Board, chair of the Board of Directors for the Council on Christian Unity (now the Christian Unity and Interfaith Ministry), and member of the Board of Directors for Disciples Home Missions. Wilcoxson is also the executive director of Compassionate Lexington, an organization which seeks to promote the core value of compassion through concrete action. Wilcoxson has two adult daughters: Sydney and Molly. He enjoys reading, running, and rooting on his beloved Cincinnati Reds.
Erin Cash is the Project Director for the Thriving Congregations Project at Lexington Theological Seminary. Prior to this role, Erin served as Director of Admissions at LTS for over 8 years. She is a graduate of Greenville University in Greenville, IL, Candler School of Theology at Emory University in Atlanta, GA, and Lexington Theological Seminary in Lexington, KY. Ordained in 2006, Erin enjoys the opportunities she has to serve in pulpit supply, guest lectures, and as a lay leader in her own congregation. Erin has served as Moderator for the Christian Church In Kentucky, as co-chair of the Local Arrangements team for Regional Assembly, and as co-chair for the Local Arrangements Team of the General Assembly. She also serves as Kentucky’s representative to the General Board, chairing the General Assembly Planning Committee there. Erin is deeply passionate about the work of the local and the Regional church. She is co-author of the book Thriving Church: What You Can Learn from Faithful Congregations now available from Chalice Press. Erin is part of a clergy couple. Her husband, Chris, is the Senior Pastor at FCC Georgetown, having formerly served North Middletown Christian Church and Oxford Christian Church. She is mom to Ella, who is a Junior at Murray State University. In her free time, Erin enjoys baking, hiking, exploring the National Parks, baseball games, and any experience that involves a lake, pool, or the ocean.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 Their Book: Thriving Church
🎧 Episode Referenced: DOC Roundtable
🎧 Episode Referenced: Dawn Weaks
🎧 Episode Referenced: Chad Brooks
Connect with Future Christian:
📱 Future Christian Instagram:
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:43):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with the
Reverend Dr. Kory Wilcoxon and Erin Cash. Wilcoxon
has served as the Senior Pastor of Crestwood
Christian church in Lexington, Kentucky since
2009. Prior to moving to Lexington, he served for
(01:04):
12 years as a pastor in the Chicago and
Indianapolis areas. Wilcoxon has served in a
number of leadership positions within the Kentucky
region and Christian Church Disciples of Christ
denomination, including Moderator of the Kentucky
Regional Board Chair of the Board of Directors for
the Council on Christian Unity, now the Christian
(01:26):
Unity and Interfaith Ministry, and Member of the
Board of Directors for Disciples Home Missions.
Wilcoxon is also the Executive Director of
Compassionate Lexington, an organization which
seeks to promote the core value of compassion
through concrete action. Wilcoxon has two adult
(01:46):
daughters, Sydney and Malu. He enjoys reading,
running, and rooting on his beloved Cincinnati
Reds. Erin Cash is the Project Director for the
Thriving Congregations Project at Lexington
Theological Seminary. Prior to this role, Erin
served as Director of admissions for LTS for over
(02:06):
eight years. Ordained in 2006, Erin enjoys the
opportunity she has to serve in pulpit supply,
guest lectures, and as a lay reader in her own
congregation. Erin has served as Moderator for the
Christian Church in Kentucky, as co Chair of the
Local Arrangements Team for Regional assembly, and
(02:27):
as co Chair for the Local Arrangements Team of the
General Assembly. She also serves as Kentucky's
Representative to the General Board, chairing the
General Assembly Planning Committee there. Erin is
deeply passionate about the work of the local and
the regional church. She is co author of the book
Thriving what you can Learn from Faithful
(02:50):
Congregations, now available from Chalice Press.
Erin is part of a clergy couple. Her husband,
Chris, is a Senior Pastor at FCC Georgetown. She
is mom to Ella, and in her free time, Erin enjoys
baking, hiking, exploring the national parks,
baseball games, and any experience that involves a
(03:10):
lake, pool, or the ocean. A reminder. Before we
start today's conversation, please take a moment
to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and
share Future Christian with a friend. Share
Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian
on Instagram. Shoot us an email at. Ah, Laurenson.
>> Erin (03:30):
Ah.
>> Martha Tatarnic (03:33):
With comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we
faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (03:50):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
I am, uh, pleased to be joined today by Kory
Wilcoxon and Erin Cash. Hello and welcome to the
show.
>> Erin (03:59):
Hey. Thank you.
>> Kory (04:00):
Thanks. It's great to be here.
>> Loren (04:02):
Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
Before we get started, Kory anything else you want
our listeners to know about you?
>> Kory (04:10):
Uh, no, I don't think so. Um, just I have a couple
daughters and lots, um, that keep me busy and just
love talking about this, uh, because church is
just so much fun. So looking forward to it.
>> Loren (04:23):
Awesome. Erin, how about you?
>> Erin (04:25):
Not really. Um, I have a daughter who is a junior
in college and she's studying veterinary sciences
and medicine and we're dog owners and doing what
we're doing.
>> Loren (04:36):
That's awesome. That's awesome.
>> Erin (04:38):
Well, cool.
>> Loren (04:39):
Share, if you would, kind of about your faith
background, what that looked like in the past and
what that looks like today. Erin why don't you
share first?
>> Erin (04:46):
Sure. So I was raised a Southern Baptist in a time
when being Southern Baptist didn't mean what it
means now. Um, we were conservative evangelicals
for sure, but it was not the rigid fundamentalism
that it is now. And that experience gave me
several things. First of all, it gave me a deep
(05:08):
love for and knowledge of the scripture. Um, so
that's been really helpful for me as I've made my
switch over into the Disciples of Christ. Uh,
we've been Disciples, my husband and I, both,
since 2011. So we've been here for a little while,
have been a part of Disciples Churches ever since
then. Uh, that's really what's different for me is
(05:29):
that the experience of having being raised Baptist
and finding a home with the Disciples of Christ
has really given me a spiritual freedom that I
didn't have growing up as a teen and as a young
adult in the Baptist church. I made the move
ultimately when my home congregation decided that
(05:51):
they would fund my scholarship for seminary, but
they would not ordain me. That was difficult. That
was really hard. Um, and it was kind of the final
straw for me to know that this is really not going
to be the denomination that's going to continue to
affirm my gifts for ministry.
>> Loren (06:10):
Yeah, well, welcome, I guess this is for
listeners. This is not normally like a disciple
centric podcast, but it's going to be very much
today. And I'm reminded, uh, as we're recording
this, I have an Episode coming out Tuesday, a very
disciple centric episode two. So, uh, if you're
listening to this, go back. I'll have a link in
(06:32):
the show notes for the past roundtable episode.
But, uh, Kory is also Disciples of Christ pastor,
if I'm correct in that. So, Kory talk about your
own background and faith journey.
>> Kory (06:44):
I'll be glad to. Erin let me say that, uh, the
Baptist loss is our gain. So I'm glad to disciple.
So I did not, uh, grow up going to church at all.
I was raised by a single mom. And so we would go
to church as we were able, which kind of meant we
were creaster people. Christmas and Easter, but no
real, um, faith grounding or faith formation until
(07:04):
college. Um, my mom started attending more
regularly and invited me. And the Disciples Church
was the closest to our house and a bunch of our
family members went there. So I'm like, sure, why
not? Um, and really found a home there, found an
acceptance there, um, and started working with the
youth group as a chaperone. And that really kind,
um, of got me plugged in and thinking about
ministry. So, uh. But I went to seminary, um, with
(07:28):
really almost no, um, faith formation at all. I
mean, I thought the four Gospels were John, Paul,
George and Ringo. You know, I knew nothing about
scripture, I knew nothing about theology. And so I
kind of went in as a blank slate, which looking
back, I think really helped me because I didn't
have a faith to break down that then had to be
rebuilt. And so I went in with this curiosity, um,
(07:49):
and this sense of wonder. And that is really sort
of, I think, defined my ministry, uh, as I have
moved into. As I moved into congregational
ministry. Um, I've been in it. It'll be 25 years
next year, which seems a little crazy, um, and
still, uh, love that aspect of it of learning, uh,
about Scripture, learning about, um, how we live
(08:10):
out our faith. And so that's been a big, uh, of,
uh, my faith formation for me. My journey for me
is sort of continuing to learn what it means to be
a Christian and a minister. I didn't come in with
a concept of, oh, this is what it means to be a
minister. So I need to live up to that. It really
was like me a blank slate. And so it's been fun
sort of living into that and discovering that as I
(08:32):
go.
>> Loren (08:33):
M. Cool, cool.
Uh, either one of you want to share any kind of
spiritual practices that you find meaningful or
that you're willing to share with our audience.
>> Erin (08:42):
My spiritual practice that I find most meaningful
may not Be something that falls in the category of
traditional spiritual practices. Uh, for me, the.
The place where I feel closest to God. The way I
commune with God most easily and most frequently
is being out on a hike. My husband and I both love
(09:02):
national parks, um, and state parks and
opportunities to be out in the peace and in the
quiet. Uh, the world is a very noisy place. And
having those opportunities to spend time just with
him and with God. Our daughter hates the outdoors,
so she is never with us. Uh, so having the
(09:23):
opportunity just to be with Chris and nature and
God is really one of the most meaningful practices
for me.
>> Loren (09:31):
Absolutely. Kory how about you?
>> Kory (09:33):
Yeah, I don't sit still well. So, um, a lot of the
practices that are more traditional, I'm like,
Erin, I. I just. Those don't feed me. And so, um,
I try to use. When I'm exercising that really is
the time where I can just sort of focus inward,
uh, on myself. I am such an extrovert. I love
conversations. So when a church member wants to
(09:54):
talk about something that was in a sermon or a
spiritual question they have. It feeds me to see
God in them as we talk about those things. So, uh,
my spiritual life tends to be more kinetic in that
way. Um, and, uh, I appreciate, you know, in
seminary, the model that was given was, you know,
quiet room with dim lights and soft music and
candles. And so reading books like, you know,
(10:17):
prayer, uh, for those who can't sit still made me
think, oh, it's okay if my spirituality is one
that involves movement and that is relational. And
so I've really tried to lean into that.
>> Loren (10:28):
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for sharing
that.
We're here to talk with Erin and Kory about their
book, Thriving Church. What can We Learn? Or what
we can learn from Faithful Congregations. It
always throws me off when the subtitle is above
the title title on the book cover. So that's part
of the problem.
>> Kory (10:46):
Yeah.
>> Loren (10:47):
Let me first say for our listeners, like, again,
I've kind of hinted at it here already. Erin and
Kory are both in the denomination called the
Christian Church Disciples of Christ, the mainline
Protestant denomination, which, like many mainline
Protestant denominations, has seen its fair share
of struggles and decline over recent years. So I
(11:07):
think, first of all, like, I was really, really
excited to see a book about thriving church within
our denomination. Uh, two, I think, you know, I
think these stories need to be told more and more.
So if anything, like, buy the book, check out the
book, just to, like, recognize, like, there are
good stories of churches that are thriving within
(11:31):
the Christian church steps. Christ and mainline
Proselytism writ large. But let's get into some of
the nitty gritty here.
So I think the first thing that was interesting is
y' all talk about traits of thriving
congregations. And I've already plugged the book
here. Very good. I think, if I can say so myself.
But give some of those traits that y' all
(11:53):
recognized, uh, Kory that are traits of thriving
congregations that you found.
>> Kory (11:59):
Yeah. Uh, so, gosh, um, there's 10. And so it's
like, you know, trying, um, to pick one or two is
like trying to pick, you know, one or two of my
favorite Marvel characters. It's like almost
impossible. But, um, I was going to go.
>> Erin (12:11):
With children, but you can say Marvel characters.
>> Kory (12:15):
I mean, my kids, they know which one's the
favorite, so I don't have to worry about that. Um,
so the first one, uh, is rooted in Scripture. And
we were intentional about making that the first
trait in the book because we feel like that we use
the image in the conclusion of a tree. And if you
think of the roots of a tree supporting the growth
of the tree, we really feel like being rooted in
Scripture. It supports the other nine traits
(12:38):
because we have to ground ourselves in God's Word.
And if we do that and if we work to discern and
interpret God's Word for us, the other traits kind
of grow out of that. And then the second trait,
um, is knowing your mission and vision. And that's
sort of the trunk of the tree. If you know, you
know the direction God is growing you and pointing
you, then everything that grows from that is
connected to that mission in vision. So we were
(13:01):
really intentional about picking, um, those two as
the first two traits. And then.
Erin, do you want to talk about a couple of the
other traits? Because I could just keep going, so.
>> Erin (13:10):
Sure, sure. So in the metaphor, we imagine the
other eight traits as branches, uh, as things that
grow out of your scripture rootedness and your
mission and vision. And so some of those include
things like thriving congregations reject fear.
Thriving congregations are collaborative. Um,
thriving congregations refuse to be stagnant, uh,
(13:34):
which is different from, uh, not having an anchor
in the past. We hear that a lot from folks is, you
know, how do you, how do you maintain balance with
your history? Um, especially in the part of the
country where Kory and I are, and in, especially
in disciples congregations, many of them are very,
very old. And so, you know, we're 200 years old or
(13:57):
220 years old. And so the question becomes, how do
you be a, uh, forward thinking congregation? How
do you refuse to be Stagnant while honoring that
significant and rich history.
>> Loren (14:10):
Yeah, yeah, Good stuff.
Erin let me ask you about this, because I think
this is so important. I'm going to give a shout
out to a past guest and a UMC United Methodist
pastor and leader, Chad Brooks, who has a book,
sort of on this point, that thriving is not always
about membership size. Because I think this is,
like, the number one thing that I'm sure you hear.
(14:30):
I hear a lot. It's like how, you know, churches
that are small are declining, and y' all work to.
What am I trying to say? Subvert that idea, Talk
more about that.
>> Erin (14:43):
Yeah, we do. Um, one of the questions that Kory
and I asked each other frequently as we were
writing the book is, can a church be both dying
and thriving at the same time? And we believe the
answer is unequivocally yes, because we define
thriving as being the church that God has called
(15:04):
you to be in this time and in this place.
Recognizing that everything is seasonal, including
220-year-old congregations, including brand new
congregations, including settings where the town
is dying. Um, we work with churches in that
setting, too. And knowing that you're decreasing
(15:26):
in number does not mean that you can't be the
church that God is calling you to be in your place
and in your time. So we really try to help
churches understand that. We talk a little bit
about what we call the three Bs of churches,
bodies, budgets, and buildings. Um, and thriving
is not about any of those.
>> Loren (15:47):
Kory let's stay on that, because I think there is
this. There's this understanding of, like,
certainly maybe in the peak of Christendom. Right.
Which I think we'd all agree probably in this room
that seems like Christendom is dead, if not near
death. But it seemed like in the peak of
Christendom, there was this sense of church and
(16:10):
ministries would just kind of go on in perpetuity,
whereas today it seems like things very much are
seasonal, as Erin said. What is your thoughts on
trying to help churches reimagine or change their
perspective on this idea that, like, just because
Something doesn't last 200 years, let's say,
(16:33):
doesn't mean it's not vital, important, faithful
work?
>> Kory (16:36):
Yeah, it's such a great question. And we loved
wrestling with this because so much in our world
is measurable today. I mean, I can tell you right
now the number of steps I have taken today. You
know, we get into the granular of what's
measurable. And yet the core of a church, the
mission of a church, is not something we can
measure. And so we tried to break out of that mold
(16:58):
of, well, you know, you define a church as, uh,
thriving by the things that are measurable, like
Erin talked about and instead talked about, um,
you know, how is the church being authentic to who
God is calling them to be. And so there are
churches in our book that they may not be here 10
years from now. I certainly pray that they are,
but they may not. But that's not going to change
(17:20):
the fact that they are thriving in one or more of
these traits. There's a church that's not in the
book, but one that's in a small town in Kentucky.
It's a town that's not growing. It's a church
that's shrinking pretty rapidly. Um, but every
Wednesday they serve a free breakfast to anyone in
the community who wants to show up, no questions
asked. Could be the mayor, could be someone coming
(17:41):
through town, could be an unhoused person. That
church may not be here in five years, but they are
absolutely thriving in who God is calling them to
be in that moment. And so our hope was to provide
inspiration to churches that were declining, that,
that we're aging, that we're struggling to say
just because those things might be going on from
the, you know, the outside view, the measurable
(18:01):
view, you can still thrive in who God is calling
you to be. And so those are the things that we
tried to help churches see with the, uh, with the
trades.
>> Loren (18:10):
Yeah, this is good stuff. I want to ask about fear
versus mission, because I think those two things
can really go against one another. And this is
sort of a two part question. So Erin feel free to
like, respond to whichever side you want to, but I
think certainly y' all talk about like the
importance of grounding your work and mission and
knowing like who you are, what do you want to be
(18:32):
about, who you feel God is calling you to be
about. Maybe contrast that again. Uh, I'm thinking
of fear. How fear like distorts all that. So I'm
giving you kind of a two part question, so feel
free to respond to which part you want to, but
talk more about those.
>> Erin (18:51):
That's a big, big question. Um, I do think that
churches right now live in fe, and I think that's
largely due to the measurables. Uh, we, we get so
worried about how are we going to be able to
afford to do good ministry? How are we going to be
able to have enough people to do good ministry?
How are we going to, you know, all of those things
(19:13):
that churches measure if we don't have you know,
you love to hear people say, if we don't have
enough people to, to help tithe, then we can't
keep the lights on and then we can't cease to be,
or we cease to be the church. That kind of fear,
uh, Kory and I maintain that kind of fear is what
holds us back. That scarcity mentality of there's
just not enough, keeps us from seeing all of the
(19:36):
things that we do have. Um, so when we do
workshops, when we talk about, um, this in, in
local congregations, we often start with, what do
you have that you're not considering? Um, and that
can be anything from we have this great big empty
building that we could be using for ministry space
down to, we have a church member who's on the city
(19:58):
council and has connections to an agency that we
could partner with once a week to help. You know,
maybe don't have enough people to provide a meal
every Wednesday, but maybe your folks can go join
the church that is offering the meal. That sort of
connection, um, and collaboration is really
helpful in congregations that are really
(20:19):
struggling with fear. You know, it may be that
your mission is to partner with someone else,
maybe who God's calling you to be right now.
>> Loren (20:28):
Yeah. Kory let me, let me have you address the
other side of that question of like, do you think
having a strong mission can help churches overcome
that fear? Like, how, how have you seen that play
out? Like, what does that look like? You think?
>> Kory (20:43):
I. Absolutely. And again, it's why we started the
book the way we did. Because as Erin was talking,
I was thinking about the story of Peter stepping
out of the boat and walking on water. Right? So,
uh, he could have been governed, um, by fear,
which would have kept him from taking that step.
We know it kicks in a little bit later, but
because he was focused on who Christ was calling
(21:05):
him to be and where Christ was calling him to go,
he was able to take that step without that fear.
And so I think what knowing your mission is
knowing who God is calling you to be, it gives you
sort of a singularity of focus. It gives you a,
ah, way of keeping your eyes on where you're
going. That as fear creeps into that, um, that can
(21:27):
be countered by faith, right? That can be
countered by trust and courage. Isn't the absence
of fear. It's being willing to live out your
mission in the presence of that fear. And so I
think knowing that mission, um, it holds that fear
at bay. And we saw that in the book with several
churches. There was a church, there's a Hispanic
church, In Florida, a new church start that has
it, its goal being an inclusive, uh, community. So
(21:51):
imagine a, ah, church that in Florida. Right. In
the Hispanic community that wanted to do something
that was countercultural in a lot of ways. There
were a lot of people telling them to stop before
they ever started. And yet that pastor was so
focused on what she felt like that goal was that
God was giving her, that she was able to move
forward with this new church start and really
(22:13):
impact people in meaningful ways. Even though all
the signs pointed towards this isn't going to
work, you're going to make people upset, all those
sorts of things. And so I think knowing who it is
that God's calling you to be and grounding that,
uh, and supporting that with scripture really can
make those fears not subside. But you kind of, you
(22:33):
get them in context and they become smaller when
you're instead focused on where you're going.
>> Loren (22:38):
Yeah.
>> Erin (22:38):
I also think, Loren, that it's important to know
or to point out that what we talk about is
rejecting a fear mentality. We don't talk about
that being unafraid. Um, but that when that fear
creeps in, that there's a conscious decision to
say we are afraid, but we are not going to operate
(23:01):
in that fear. Right. Being afraid is okay, but
rejecting the mentality of fear is a different
thing.
>> Kory (23:09):
Yeah. See what the Baptists are missing out on.
That's great, Erin That's really good.
>> Loren (23:15):
I want to dive into talking more about mission
statement because you make a couple interesting
observations. You're right that many churches
spend significant time, resources and energy on
the process, and then they kind of put it on a
shelf. Um, I'm, uh, summarizing there, so. And
then also I think this is interesting. You write
(23:36):
that these statements should be written in pencil,
which again, is intriguing. So, uh, feel free to
approach this how you want to. But again, I'm
thinking of the importance of how you've worked
with congregations in this tendency, because
certainly I've seen it where a church has this
vision statement, or those words can be certainly
interchanged depending on how one defines them.
(23:56):
Right. They have this vision statement or mission
statement, and then you look five years later,
nothing has changed. Right. So how do you balance
that? I guess this is maybe the question. How do
you balance that? Making sure that mission
statement or vision statement has traction versus
also not being too rigidly saying this is what
(24:20):
we're doing.
>> Kory (24:22):
Yeah, I'm glad to take this one because my church
just went through this process of reimagining our
mission statement that we had put into place about
ten years ago. Um, and so the idea of it being
written in pencil, um, honors the fact that every
new person who comes into your congregation
changes that congregation. Right. By the nature of
the gifts that they bring and the. And the lived
experience and the background. And so I think a
(24:45):
church needs to constantly sort of be doing self
reflection and self evaluation of this was our
mission statement three years ago. Are we still
that church and is this still our mission? Um, and
so almost before the, you know, before the ink is
dry on it, we're. We're doing that sort of
evaluation of it because not only does the church
change, but, goodness gracious, the world changes.
(25:06):
Right? And so just because this was who we were
called to be five, three, one year ago, doesn't
mean that that's who we're called to be now based
on what's going on within the church and outside
the church. And so there needs to be some sense
of, um, authority to the statement. Right. It
can't be constantly fluid, but there does need to
(25:27):
be a constant revisiting of it to say, is this who
we are called to be? And that kind of goes into
the trait of a church being flexible. Um, you
know, get so locked into a mission statement that
it's like, no, we have to do this or else. But it
does need to inform what we do. So a congregation
needs to continue to keep that mission, that
vision, those core values in front of itself. Um,
(25:48):
whether that's, you know, reading them at a board
meeting or including them in staff evaluations,
you know, whatever it is, let those guide the
church moving forward, but make sure there's a
process on a regular basis of reevaluating that
and. And a congregation doing a self evaluation to
say, is this still who we're called to be, or do
we need to adapt that?
>> Loren (26:08):
Yeah, that's good. Erin, anything else to add
there?
>> Erin (26:11):
I think, uh, in short, no, Corey's right on the
money about that. Um, I do think that this is one
of those things that congregations really struggle
with because they think that the process of
crafting a mission statement and then revisiting
the mission statement are the same, and they don't
have to be if you're keeping that statement in
(26:33):
front of you. So if you, you know, say you're a
congregation that has a statement of values, these
are five things that we value. If you're looking
at those on a regular basis and thinking about
them and reimagining, what might it look like to
be a church with excessive joy or Whatever it is
that your congregation says they value, then, you
(26:55):
know, maybe you're going through a season, um, and
most churches have them of, um, deep, deep grief
for whatever reason. Well, maybe excessive joy is
not your value right this moment. Right. Maybe
it's some sort of compassionate, um, care for one
another or some. And so if you're looking at it
regularly, you don't have to go through a whole
(27:17):
process of discernment, but you can just say, you
know, what, this may be for a season. This piece
needs to come away and this piece needs to come
in. And it's not that it's not as massive of an
undertaking as when the statement has been sitting
on a shelf for 10 years and no one has really
worked on it.
>> Loren (27:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Erin something you said brings up another question
I want to ask you. Talked about, like, of the pain
or loss or mourning. I can't remember how you said
it, uh, that churches are often going through,
experiencing, whether it's community decline or
declining attendance or just, just folks are
getting older and slowly passing away. I think
(28:02):
maybe because I've seen it within myself, within
congregations and communities I've worked in,
there's this need to have permission or capacity
to dream again. Certainly this ties into a
question I want to ask you about creative
thinking, but I think almost there needs to be
this, I don't know, ability, reability, if that's
(28:23):
the right word, to like, be. To dream again. Talk
more about that.
>> Erin (28:27):
Yeah, yeah. Kory mentioned authenticity earlier.
Um, and I think churches like to. To try to be
authentic, but to not be authentic with their
grief. Um, and, you know, in the church I grew up
in, for example, we had. There was one particular
season where we had 13 significant deaths in six
(28:48):
months. Um, and one of those was a pastor, one of
them was a teenager, one of them was a deacon. I
mean, it was a significant season of loss. Right.
But when you came to church on Sunday morning,
everybody put on their smile and said hello and,
you know, all of those things. And we didn't talk
about it until, uh, in that tradition, it was
(29:10):
Memorial Day that we would remember as opposed to
All Saints Day. Um, but we didn't talk about how
difficult that six months had been until it was
time to have Memorial Day. Right. Um, and so when
congregations can't be authentic with their
sadness as much as they can with their joy and
(29:31):
with their ministry and their mission, then I
think there is not space for dreaming, because we
can't. It's hard to dream if you're not fully who
you are. If you can't name all of the components
of who you are. It's hard to dream, um, because
dreaming involves bringing our full selves into
(29:52):
the conversation and being able to say, yeah, I am
deathly afraid of letting go of our 8:30 worship
service. But what would it look like if.
>> Loren (30:07):
Uh, you know, this is good stuff. This is good
practical stuff, Kory Because I think sometimes
it's just it. How do you make space for people to
name. Like Erin just said, I'm so attached to the
8:30 traditional worship style or to this ministry
or to the. I mean, uh, I love buildings, but to
(30:30):
this building.
>> Kory (30:32):
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the threads that we
saw across the traits and across the stories we
tell in the book is the attempt to balance
honoring the past without letting go it be
shackles, you know? Right. Um, there was a church
that we talk about, um, that, um, was wanting to
do some really cool things with their kitchen, um,
(30:53):
and to equip it in a way that it would serve the
community. And they were going down that path and
everyone was excited about it until they got to
the softball trophy.
>> Loren (31:02):
I love the story.
>> Kory (31:03):
Softball trophies in the kitchen. The whole thing
ground to a halt because, like, what. What are we
going to do with those? Because we can't. We can't
just get rid of them because they're meaningful to
people. Even though when they went and asked the
softball players if they wanted them, they're
like, we don't want those old things. That's
ridiculous. But that became symbolic of, well, we
can't do this because of this thing in the past.
(31:24):
And so I think a thriving church really, uh, tries
to find that balance between honoring the past.
You can't just throw it out. You can't just
jettison it. Honoring the past while letting that
be a springboard to the future. You know, the
church I serve is really interesting because my
predecessor who was there 13 years, and his
predecessor, who was there 26 years, are both
(31:45):
still active in my congregation. Um, and so I have
living history sitting behind me in the choir on
Sunday morning and hopefully at least acting like
they're paying attention, uh, while I'm also
trying to help the church move forward. And so
it's been a really interesting exercise for me of
making sure that we honor the past without being
afraid to say that's who we were, but we are
(32:08):
someone different now, um, which allows us to move
forward. So I think that that is really key of
trying to figure out. And every church is going to
be different. Right. There's Not a formula for
that, but figuring out from leadership how you
make sure you're honoring that past and using that
as a way forward and not using it as a. Well, we
can't do this because then Bertha will hate that
her mom's tapestry that she sewed and hung in the
(32:30):
sanctuary was taken down. Bertha doesn't care.
Let's move forward.
>> Loren (32:34):
Yeah. You know, you say there's no formula, but
I'm thinking there's one. Formula is not the right
word, but metric or staple. And then I think it's
time. Right. Like I'm thinking of. Y' all are
probably familiar with the work of. Can't remember
her book, but Don and Joe Weeks. Right. Uh, can't
remember what it was. Breakthrough. Yeah. And
(32:56):
like, I just think of like how much time, how Don
describes Joe, just like sitting with people, like
flipping through every item.
>> Kory (33:05):
Mhm.
>> Loren (33:06):
That's a lot of time and commitment to be like, I
see you, I care about you. I know these were
important items at one point, perhaps in the life
of the church, but also like, we gotta have make
some hard decisions and we gotta make space and I
gotta be patient. I gotta commit time to this.
>> Kory (33:28):
Yeah. It was interesting in the book because we
had everything from a church that was over 200
years old to a couple new church starts. Right.
And so it looks different depending on the
congregation that you're in. But I think you're
right. I, uh, think if people who are tied to the
past feel like their stories are heard, then I
think that give. That buys a lot of relational and
(33:50):
ministerial capital for you to do the work moving
forward. Because you can say, hey, we used to do
this. That was fantastic. What if that now looks
like this? Or what if that charter member who was
so, you know, that charter member would love to
know that this church is doing new things in new
ways. Um, but you have to have that grounding or
else people will feel dismissed, they'll feel not
(34:13):
heard, and then you're not going to have that
support.
>> Erin (34:16):
I'm working, Loren. I'm working with a
congregation right now that is 130 years old. They
just had their anniversary celebration a few weeks
ago and we, the week prior to doing that, they
voted unanimously, which I think is significant.
They voted unanimously essentially to demolish
(34:36):
their building and build a whole new structure.
Um, and the process that they are going through to
sort of put a closing pin in the physical
buildings chapter of ministry, um, and reimagining
what it looks like to be, ah, the church on that
corner for the future. Has been a story of exactly
(34:59):
what Corey's talking about, of, like honoring
their history. And, you know, the folks who can
remember being in that particular preschool Sunday
school room who are now 80 years old, that kind of
thing. Um, some of those people are actually the
champions for this building no longer fits who we
are, who God is calling us to be.
(35:19):
Um, and they are, they're in this process of
saying goodbye. I mean, it'll be five years before
they have their new building, but it's an
intentional process of how do we, um, thank this
building and say goodbye to this building as we
prepare to be a new place on this corner? I think
it's really beautiful story.
>> Loren (35:37):
Yeah, great story. Um, it's funny because I was
just listening to a podcast kind of on this topic
yesterday. I had not thought about that, that
sometimes because of deferred maintenance or just
declining buildings, like the. The best thing to
do is just demolish a building and rebuild. But
it's a great example of what you say of not being
stuck or tied to the past and honoring mission.
(36:00):
I want to read because I think this is a fun thing
you all have in the book that oftentimes behind
all these ambitious change and remissioning
movement, there can be, as you all say, someone in
the background who's kind of, uh, not wanting to
play along. So I want to read this quote here.
(36:20):
Part of moving forward when that someone shows up
is figuring out which type of someone is in the
room. Is it the I know who? But I don't want to
say that someone should never have a place in the
church. That someone creates triangulation and
secrecy, the enemies of trust. So, Erin there's
more to that quote. Uh, but, uh, talk about the
(36:41):
importance of kind of naming who that someone is.
>> Erin (36:46):
Right. So I am, um, among other things, also a
pastor's wife. And so I hear, um, this on
occasion. Um, now my pastor, my husband is very
good about keeping things confidential. Um, but
sometimes when situations have resolved, then I
will hear about it later, about now that this is
(37:07):
all okay. I can tell you what's been happening.
Um, and at one of the congregations he served, he
would hear this a lot from board members. Well, I
know that someone's not very happy about whatever.
And it's never someone wanted me to say thank you
for doing such a great job. Right. You never get
that. It's always when someone is thinking, that.
>> Loren (37:29):
Was an excellent sermon.
>> Erin (37:31):
Right? Exactly. Someone said they'd like to give
you a bonus this week. Um, but it's often what's
Happening there is. It's really the person talking
to you who has the problem and the concern. And
I'm sure Kory can talk about this too, but they
don't want to say, I have a problem with this, or
(37:51):
my spouse has a problem with this or whatever,
because that's too personal and too
confrontational. But the other type of someone who
is in the room is this mysterious. You know, if
you think about the softball trophies, right. We
can't get rid of the softball trophies because
someone will be. Will be upset about it, but
nobody actually knows who that someone is. Um, so
(38:14):
when you think about those someones, those. We're
sure somebody will be unhappy, but we don't know
who the person is. Well, that can be solved
because you just start asking questions. And
that's what that congregation with the softball
trophies did. I started asking questions, right.
They went to the softball players and said, what
do you think we should do with these trophies? And
(38:35):
they went to, you know, people who remembered the
games, what do you think we should do with the
trophies? And largely found out that most people
really didn't care. Um, now you will, when that
happens, you will find some. Right? So, spoiler
alert, that congregation kept a couple of trophies
and put them in there. Um, they have sort of a
history hallway of the congregation, so they kept
(38:56):
one or two, and they put them in that history
section. But when it's that, that triangulation,
indirect, you know, I'm unhappy with Kory but I
don't want to say I'm unhappy with Kory So I'm
going to say someone is unhappy with Kory Um,
that's just unhealthy. Boundaries of naming it.
Um, many, many a pastor will say, if you're coming
(39:19):
to me anonymously with a complaint, I'm not
responding to that.
>> Loren (39:25):
Yeah, Kory let's talk directly about this, because
you've obviously been in this situation. So
someone comes in, it's like someone. Like, how do
you discern which type of someone it is? How do
you draw that out?
>> Kory (39:40):
Uh, it almost depends on the person bringing it to
me. Right. I've been here almost 16 years, so I
kind of know. I, uh, know who the someones are,
and I know who the people are that will bring me
the someones. Uh, I learned in seminary, I was a
student minister, and I watched this really almost
take down the senior minister for whom I served.
And so, uh, I learned a lot sort of from him and
(40:02):
his wounds. Um, but I usually ask directly, well,
who is it that you think would be concerned about
this? And then I say, I point to my door and I'm
like, that door is always open. Anybody can come
to me at any time and bring any concerns they
have. But for now I'm not going to worry about
that. I'm going to worry about, know, focus on who
(40:23):
we're called to be moving forward. And again,
that's back to rejecting a fear mentality, right?
>> Loren (40:27):
Mhm.
>> Kory (40:27):
If people are afraid that people might be mad,
okay. You know what I think was it someone said,
if you're not making at least 10% of your
congregation mad, you're not doing your job well
as a minister, I have no problems with people
being mad at me. I think that that probably is a
sign of good ministry in that sense, that we are
challenging people, that we are working to get
(40:49):
them out of their comfort zone, that we are, um,
you know, doing things that are calling us forward
as a church, which may involve change or those
sorts of things. Um, and that, that's going to
make people afraid because they want to see, um,
they want to see the church that they knew. You
know, it's kind of going back to the history
thing. I had someone come to me once, an elderly
lady in a church, and she was very concerned and
(41:10):
anxious and she said, I didn't know any of the
people who were serving as deacons today. And I
said, said, well then let's celebrate that. Hm.
That means that there are new people in the
church. I said, but who were your favorite
deacons? Who do you remember being a deacon? And
she told me some stories. And so how do you sort
of suss out from someone what is the fear behind
(41:30):
the someone question? Is it them? Is it someone
else? And how can we name that fear and say that
this is a real fear, but also reframe that to help
them see that where there is fear, there is also
faith and there are also things to celebrate. So
it's sort of, it's holding those fears or those
(41:51):
concerns as authentic to that person, but then
trying to give them a different perspective of how
to see whatever the situation is.
>> Loren (41:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, good stuff.
You all have talked about history and I want to
ask sort of a practical question here because I
think I've seen churches do this well and not
well, frankly. Like, how do you, you honor the
history? Like I will unnamed church. Like they had
a bunch of plaques in the sanctuary and I just, I
don't know. My opinion is like, no, I don't need,
(42:21):
I don't need memorial plaques lining the walls of
sanctuary. Like, how do you do that? Well. And
not.
>> Erin (42:28):
Well, I'm gonna. Cory's church is one of those.
>> Kory (42:33):
Wait, well. Or not. Well, which one?
>> Erin (42:35):
No, no, that has a lot of. Of named plaques.
>> Kory (42:37):
Yeah, we do.
>> Erin (42:38):
I'm gonna let Kory address that one for you.
>> Kory (42:41):
Uh, thankfully, I inherited a lot of those
plaques. I haven't been asked about whether we
should put them up or not. I think that's such a
balance to walk. Loren. You know, when you. When
you think about how you do that, I mean, Crestwood
is. Is lucky in that we just lost our last adult
charter member last year. So we had a living
history in the church for a long time. And so I
(43:02):
try to be really strategic about the places that
we could lift up that living history. You know,
was there a chance to have the 92 year old charter
member speak during worship about something that
happened? You know, how do you. How do you. How do
you strategically lift up and celebrate that
history, um, without giving into the well, we've
(43:23):
always done it that way mentality? Right. So there
were a couple ministries at Crestwood when I came
here. Realized that the best thing they needed was
a good funeral. But I needed to figure out how to
conduct that funeral in a way that created as
little disruption as possible. So I went to a
couple of those older folks and I said, I know
that the church used to do this, and they're still
doing it, but, um, what's its importance level to
(43:45):
you? And they were like, oh, gosh, that thing
should have died, you know, five years ago.
They're just holding onto it because that's the
way we've done it. So again, I think it's kind of
back to what Erin said. It's sitting down and
talking to people and hearing their stories and
asking them. Them why this is important to them,
um, why this part of the history matters to them,
and then finding ways to celebrate it in the
(44:05):
church that isn't permanent, like a plaque on a
wall of which we have many in the sanctuary for
our stained glass windows that were donated. How
do we celebrate that in a way, again, that doesn't
keep, uh, us so tied to the past that we don't
have the freedom to move forward? Um, and I really
do think it is. If the new pastor coming in or
(44:27):
whoever the pastor is, can celebrate that past and
lift that up appropriately and use that as a
springboard or a motivation for moving forward,
then I think you're able to strike that balance as
well as possible.
>> Loren (44:40):
Yeah.
>> Erin (44:41):
And believe it or not, I think it's actually
easier for really old congregations um, because we
don't. So the congregation where my husband
pastors is 209, 15 years old, something like that.
So we don't actually have any. You know, the
churches like to use that phrase. We've always
done it this way. We don't have any of those.
(45:02):
Right. Because when the church started, we didn't
have electricity. So, um, there are relics, there
are remnants, there are sacred traditions, and
maybe even sacred cows. But there is a difference
because, you know, Corey's. Kory has most of the
history of pastorates in his congregation with him
(45:25):
still. There's. There are people who remember the
founding of that congregation. And. And when
you're in a church that's 200 years old, there is
a little bit more freedom and flexibility in that
because no, uh, one remembers the days when Barton
Stone was the pastor at First Christian Church in
Georgetown.
>> Loren (45:45):
There's some. That's a deep poll right here for
our listeners.
Okay, I gotta ask one more question here before
we, before we take a break. And it's probably what
I found in some ways, like, the most refreshing
thing about the book. And I suppose, um, I'm
admitting my bias here, but certainly in the
(46:05):
mainline Protestant tradition, as y' all talk
about in the book, there has been this like, uh, I
don't know even what the word to say, this kind of
like.
>> Erin (46:12):
Like.
>> Loren (46:14):
Sensitivity, like kid gloves approach to, like,
embracing the Scripture. And I think, like, all
three of us in this conversation are well educated
enough to understand that the Bible can be abused
and misinterpreted and. And certainly, uh, just,
you know, used as justification for horrific
(46:36):
things. Um, but y' all really make a strong case
for embracing being, quote, people of the book.
Talk more about that.
>> Erin (46:47):
So confession time. Um, the ten traits began as a
list that I prepared, uh, for the board of
trustees at Lexington Theological Seminary as a
report on the thriving congregations project. On
that list was not rooted in Scripture. I had a
different trait in there. I had thriving
(47:08):
congregations or Cureus. Um, Kory and I have since
removed Cureus because curiosity is, um, kind of
an undercurrent for all of the traits. Um, and we
put this in actually at the notice of one of our
congregations actually in the book, um, when we
started talking about the traits and saying these
are the ones we want to use, uh, one of the
(47:31):
pastors said to me, there's. There's no reason
that these are scriptural. Like, this could be,
uh, 10 traits for a Fortune 500 company or any
other place. There's nothing that roots this in
being a Christian organization. And I thought, you
know, she's completely right. And so we went back
to the list revisited, started talking about it.
(47:54):
Um, and initially that trait was thriving.
Congregations are biblically literate. Um, and
like you said, we talked about, um, there was some
real sense of handling the scripture with kind of
kid gloves, to use your words, Loren. Um, because
some of our churches really bristled at that
language because it became, um, biblical literacy
(48:14):
for them became biblical inerrancy and taking the
Bible literally as opposed to literacy. And so,
um, we decided that rooted in Scripture was better
for a variety of reasons. Number one, because the
rooted imagery and that language really, um, helps
to think through what it means to be in Scripture.
(48:37):
But we also felt like it was significant because
congregations are able to interpret that in ways
that work in their context. Um, so being people of
the book is also contextual. Right? The story, the
scripturally rooted story that we use of the
(48:57):
congregation in the. In the book is a congregation
that reads and recites every single Sunday words
of Scripture. Other churches may not do it that
way. Other churches may have deep and intimate
small, um, group Bible studies or, um, all of
their mission projects are rooted in a driving
(49:17):
scripture, those types of things. And so. So being
people of the book really is about knowing and
understanding the words of scripture. It's not
about reading them a certain way, reading them a
specific way, reading them literally, or any uh,
of those kinds of things. It's really contextual.
>> Loren (49:38):
Yeah, yeah. Great stuff here. Well, I gotta cut us
off because like I said at the top, as we're
recording this, it's Halloween. My son didn't wear
his Halloween costume, and I have to, like, like,
bring it to him at lunch. The book is thriving
church, what we can learn from faithful
Congregations. Really recommend the book. Let's
take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
closing questions.
(50:02):
All right, we're back with Erin Cash and Kory
Wilcoxon. Thank you so much for your conversation.
Again, I wish we had more time because a lot of
great stuff to discuss here, but, uh, going to
meet my son for lunch here with his Halloween
costume. Hopefully save Halloween. So some closing
questions. We always tell folks you can take these
as seriously or not as you'd like to. Kory I'll
(50:23):
give you the start here, since you told me offhand
that you have one dialed up here. So if you're
Pope for a day, what does that day look like for
you?
>> Kory (50:33):
The first thing I'm doing is I am making Easter
the same Sunday every year.
>> Loren (50:39):
Do it.
>> Kory (50:39):
I am so Tired of working around, um, spring breaks
and other things that are going on and trying to
plan. Oh, it's in March this year. Who knows? The
third week in April. This is ridiculous. It's
based on some, you know, pagan harvest festival.
Come on, come on, Pope, get with it. Just make it
(51:00):
the first Sunday of April every year so we can
plan around it better. I would spend my whole day.
That's the only thing I want to tackle. I'm a one
issue Pope, and that is my issue. This is.
>> Loren (51:10):
That is brilliant. And I'm kind of offended that
no one has brought that up before. Like, I think
that's the best. Because Easter I just heard from
this Easter is April 5, which is fairly
reasonable, right?
>> Kory (51:22):
Yeah.
>> Loren (51:23):
But there's been like, March.
>> Kory (51:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (51:26):
Like mid March Easters where it's like, this is
ridiculous. Like, why is there a mid March Easter?
>> Kory (51:31):
It's in my church in Chicago. I had an Easter egg
hunt the day before Easter. Snowed out because it
was in, like, late March church. This is
ridiculous. Come on.
>> Loren (51:39):
No, and like, in Colorado, like, spring is. We
always get, like, a spring snowstorm. So, like,
several years ago, like, I went around this entire
neighborhood of my church, like, throwing out
Easter eggs with, like, an invitation to church.
And then, like, I spent so many hours. And then,
of course, I get snowed like six inches.
>> Kory (51:57):
Right? Yeah, that's an easy one. But that's what I
would do, no question.
>> Loren (52:01):
Okay, Erin you got tough. A tough act to follow
there.
>> Erin (52:05):
Yeah, I don't have a better answer than that. So
I'm just gonna nominate Kory to be Pope.
>> Kory (52:11):
Got it.
>> Loren (52:11):
Okay.
>> Kory (52:12):
I look good in the hat too. I mean, let me tell
you.
>> Loren (52:14):
Uh, okay then, Erin I'll set you up here first so
you can. You can, like, make, uh, Kory have to
work. What's a theologian or historical Christian
figure that you'd want to meet or bring back to
life?
>> Erin (52:27):
I want to have a conversation with Frederick
Buechnik. Um, that his ability to tell story, his
ability to make, um, such profound theological
thoughts so simple and so easy for the layperson
even to really abide and to live with. Um, that's
(52:48):
the conversation I want to have. So evidently it's
Frederick Buechner that I have to bring back to
life so I can have dinner with him.
>> Loren (52:54):
Yeah.
>> Erin (52:55):
Good.
>> Loren (52:55):
I like that. That, uh, Kory how about you?
>> Kory (52:57):
It would be Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I, uh, would want
to know how he, um, uh, was so courageous and
maintained his faith in the face of, um, a
government, um, and, ah, a dictatorial figure who
Was, uh, doing the kind of things that that person
did? How was he courageous to do that, even, you
(53:19):
know, um, at the cost of his own freedom and
ultimately his own life.
>> Loren (53:25):
Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Two B's for sure.
Um, Erin I'm going to set you up here again. What
do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?
>> Erin (53:36):
That's a loaded question.
>> Loren (53:38):
I mean, why ask it? Because I know people have to
kind of stumble over it.
>> Erin (53:44):
Right. M. I hope that what history will remember
about the church is that we were a, ah, people,
um, the American church. Let me say that. That we
were a people who continued to advocate for
justice and for righteousness. Anytime, um, you
look over, um, significant history, time periods,
(54:05):
the church is there. And it's really a question of
how did the church respond. Uh, I firmly believe
that, at least in the United States, we are in one
of those significant historical moments. Um, I
think this is a time that, uh, children will read
about in the future. And I hope that the church is
a part of that story.
>> Kory (54:27):
Yeah, Kory Yeah. I mean, along the same lines, I,
uh, hope that, uh, history will remember that we
chose faith over fear, uh, because there is so
much to be scared of right now. Um, but that's
exactly the moment that we're called to step out
of the boat and live out our faith.
>> Loren (54:42):
Yeah. I mean, it's true too. It's on theme for
what this entire conversation has been about.
>> Kory (54:48):
Yeah.
>> Loren (54:49):
Kory this is sort of what you all already said.
But if you want to address it here more directly,
what do you hope? Like, what do you hope for the
future, maybe of Christianity, maybe of our
denomination, that we share that the Christian
Church Disciples of Christ's Mainline
Protestantism. Like, answer that how you will.
>> Kory (55:09):
Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, Phyllis Tickle talks
about how every 500 years there's a garage sale in
the church. And a lot of stuff gets sold off. And
what emerges from it is often leaner, more focused
kind of church. And I think that's right where we
are. I think that there's a lot that needs to die,
um, so we can refocus on what's important, um,
(55:30):
related to the last question. And so my hope for
the future of Christianity, I mean, it is going to
continue. That's not a question. My hope is it
continues in a way that it is relevant, uh, um,
to, um, our society. And that it continues to
shine the light of the gospel into this world in
ways that truly make a difference.
>> Erin (55:51):
Phyllis Tickle came to mind for me too, Kory Uh,
the Church's garage sale.
>> Loren (55:57):
Erin anything to add there?
>> Erin (55:58):
Just that when that garage sale, I mean I think
that's happening right now, but when that happens,
that we um, we choose the right things to cling to
and the right things to sell off.
>> Kory (56:09):
Mhm.
>> Loren (56:10):
Boy, that's a. Yeah, that'll preach. Yeah, hold
on, I gotta write that down. Choose right things
to cling to and sell off. Good stuff. Do you all
want to share, uh, how folks can get connected
with you? Get a copy of the book, all that stuff.
>> Kory (56:30):
Sure. So the book, uh, we encourage you to
purchase it from Chalice Press, which is our
denominational, uh, publishing organization, uh,
challispress.org and you search for the book, you
can find it there. And then, uh, my church's
website is crestwoodchristian, all1word.org. Um,
you can find me there and on all the social medias
as well. And a direct email is Kory K O r
(56:51):
y@crestwoodchristian.org and you can find.
>> Erin (56:57):
Thriving church on Facebook. Uh, the book itself
has a Facebook page. We are, I confess, slowly but
surely building a website for the thriving church
book. Um, so eventually that will be available as
well, uh, which will be linked on the Facebook
page once it goes live. So you'll be able to find
it there. Um, you can find me at Lexington
(57:19):
Theological Seminary. I am Echexo Edu. Uh, you can
track me down that way you can, um, find me on
social media as well.
>> Loren (57:35):
Well, thanks for doing all that. I had to write
that down that was too good not to write down. So
I really appreciate the conversation, really
recommend the book for, so for folks to check out.
And it's available, right?
>> Kory (57:48):
Right, yes, it sure is.
>> Erin (57:49):
Yeah, it's available anywhere you buy books. But
please buy it from Chalice.
>> Kory (57:53):
Yeah, please.
>> Loren (57:55):
Yes, I will make sure to, to link the Chalice link
just for certain, uh, folks have enough money as
it is already, right?
We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may
God's peace be with you.
>> Kory (58:08):
And also with you.
>> Erin (58:09):
And also with you. You.
>> Loren Richmond (58:20):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments and ideas for
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(58:43):
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Thanks and go in peace.