TikTok Pastor: Bethany Peerbolte is Reimagining Church Online

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether

(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.

>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Reverend
Bethany Peerbolte to the podcast.
Bethany is the founding pastor of our
Tapestry. This community meets
entirely in digital spaces and gathers
to declutter faith from abuse of
theology. She also creates Christian content

(01:06):
on TikTok, seeking to meet younger
generations where they scroll the
stories. Bethany hears from her
286,000 plus
followers about how churches have treated them
inspires her ministry. The zip
code someone lives in should not decide what kind of God
they know. Everyone deserves access to

(01:29):
the radical love of God. You can
follow RevBethany on
TikTok, Instagram and YouTube and
learn more at Alo Tapestry
online. A, uh, reminder, before we
start today's conversation, please take a
moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review
and share Future Christian with a friend.

(01:51):
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future
Christian on Instagram.

>> Loren (01:56):
Future.

>> Martha Tatarnic (01:56):
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemudiapro
uh.com
with comments, questions, or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.

>> Loren (02:19):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
welcoming Reverend Bethany Peerbolte. Hello, and,
um, welcome to the show.

>> Bethany (02:29):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat.

>> Loren (02:31):
Yeah, thank you. Thanks for being here. Anything else you want
listeners to know about you?

>> Bethany (02:37):
You know, with the Internet, everything they need to know
is out there. So follow me on any of the social
medias. Uh, with the ban happening,
I'm literally everywhere now. So, uh, just
trying to figure out where the next step is. And, um,
yeah, just follow me and check me out, see what I'm all
about.

>> Loren (02:54):
Okay, we'll get to that. We'll get to the ban here coming up.
So I want to hear your insights there, your thoughts,
share, if you would. Just come out, your faith background and your faith
journey and what that looks like today.

>> Bethany (03:05):
Yeah, so I grew up in Missouri City Lutheran. Um,
so a conservative church, um,
went to college, was planning on not going to church anymore because
it really wasn't something, you know, whatever. But,
um, it was a space. I knew I could find friends that had the same
values. And there was a church that had a 7pm
on Sunday. They'd pick me up from the dorm and give me dinner.

(03:26):
And the dorms didn't have dinner on Sundays. So I was
like, okay, I guess I'll keep going to church if they're going to feed me and pick
me up and whatever. And, um, an
amazing pastor, uh, Pastor David
Dressel just, uh, kind of understood students and
showed me like, what a pastor can be.
Um, gave me leadership roles. And when
I went back home, um, I was leading

(03:48):
youth group because I loved having a peer group
and fell, um, in love with teaching
scripture. Um, and so I found a
PCSA church and was their youth, youth
person. Um, met my first female pastor when I
was 24 and went to seminary. She was
like, you should do this full time. And I was like, okay.

(04:08):
Um, yeah. So it's just kind of been
following like the next couple of steps
that the Spirit has put me on.

>> Loren (04:16):
That's awesome. That's awesome. A really good pastor
really is so helpful, right, for, for uh,
formation and growth and encouragement and, and
yeah. Awesome.
What are some spiritual practices, you know, one or more you're
willing to share, you find meaningful?

>> Bethany (04:33):
Yeah. Um, so I just
moved. I, uh, used to do this thing where when it rained,
I have this like metallic, um, drum they
call, I think up like a panda drum. It's got different notes on it
and put it out in the rain and like, just let the rain
play music. Um, but now I don't have a patio,
so that one's kind of gone away.

(04:54):
I, um, do try to like,
just when I notice something, like, stay in that
awe moment a little bit longer when,
um, you know, I mean, the normal, you know, reading
scripture and praying and those kinds of things happen.
Um, I love labyrinths, like prayer labyrinths. I
have a couple like finger labyrinths and things that I can
trace. But then downtown Denver here, there's a couple

(05:17):
of churches that have labyrinths that you can go in and walk as well.
So, um, I'm not someone who likes to sit still. So
when I discovered prayer labyrinths, I was like, oh my gosh,
this is amazing. I can move and pray at the same time. It's
awesome. So, yeah, just a couple of those things. I like to play
around with, with new things and see what happens.
Um, you know, any way that I can open up

(05:37):
a, ah, communication channel with the Spirit, I, um, take
my dreams pretty seriously. Um, and m. Try
to think about, you know, what. What was I feeling last night?
What was I trying to get in touch with? What was the Spirit trying to tell
me in my dreams? So all those kinds of
things, um, kind of play into how I stay
connected.

>> Loren (05:56):
That's interesting.
If I can ask follow up about your dreams,
because again, in scripture, we see a lot of
value being placed in dreams. From
what? Obviously,
Joseph. Did Mary have a dream? M.
I can't remember. Right.

>> Bethany (06:12):
Uh, yeah, we've got Joseph and Mary and
then Joseph, Old Testament, you know.

>> Loren (06:17):
Like, we've got Old Testament, Joseph, obviously.

>> Bethany (06:20):
Yeah. I think dreams. I've always been. I
dream every night. And, um, in
college, I, like, did this whole, like, learn how to lucid
dream, like, thing. Um,
and there actually
is. There used to be a certification. I forget what seminary it
is, um, of DreamWorks, but I think they just made it a
PhD program. And I'm like, I've never wanted to get a PhD, but I

(06:42):
would love to get a PhD in DreamWorks.
Um, and the way that God speaks to us
through our dreams, for me, it's mostly like, it's
not necessarily the stuff that is happening.
It's the
emotional journey that I'm on.
Um, you know, when I was moving here, I would have a lot of
dreams about, like, not being able to pack up my

(07:04):
luggage fast enough to get the plane, and I would have
it over and over and over again. And I was like, what is going
on here? And I just realized that there's
a lot of stuff that I was worried about that I can't pack up. The
friends, the, you know, relationships,
things that I'm going to have to leave in Michigan when I move
to Colorado. And, you know, just realizing,

(07:24):
like, okay, the spirit's asking me to, like, take
stock of, um, these other things that I can't put
into a box so that I make sure I'm maintaining
these relationships. And, um, I wasn't. I wasn't
doing that at the time. I was just kind of like, let's go. So it
was nice to, like, okay, we need to spend some time thinking
about these things.

>> Loren (07:43):
Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, I'm reminded when I
was out of high school, I used to have
the same themed dream again and
again about being on the high school basketball team. And
always the recurring theme was, like,
I never quite made it back to an event
or a game. And I finally realized, oh, I guess I

(08:03):
miss being on the high school basketball team.
And Hanging out with the guys and stuff.

>> Bethany (08:09):
Yeah.

>> Loren (08:10):
So that's interesting. It is really interesting.
Um, let's talk
about what we're here to talk about, and that is
you as a. What. What. What even title do I give you
then? I've seen some articles. TikTok Pastor, social
media pastor. How do you identify
yourself?

>> Bethany (08:27):
This has definitely been a journey of, like, just, like,
accepting things that I wouldn't. The titles I wouldn't
normally like. So TikTok master. Absolutely.
I have learned that I need to own
that. Um, social media
evangelist, public theologian, those kinds of things that
I would, like, never. Like evangelism.
I don't want to get into that. That's a gross word. But that's

(08:50):
exactly what I do, is I am evangelizing
for the progressive Christian
theology out there. Um, so, yeah, TikTok pastors
is good. Um, it's
remarkable to think how many people, like,
would claim me as their pastor, you know,
280,000 followers.
Um, but I would say a good chunk of them, you

(09:12):
know, reach out to me when they have a spiritual
question or something going on in their life. And so it's like,
yeah, I have to accept, like, I am their pastor.

>> Loren (09:21):
Wow, that is. That is interesting. Okay, so
let's. Let's kind of get into the history. We're going to talk a
little bit about philosophy and, you
know, hopefully get some practical things, too.
But, like, let's start.
How did you start getting into using TikTok and social
media for ministry? What kind of inspired you to want
to use this as a theological or, like you said,

(09:43):
evangelism platform?

>> Bethany (09:45):
Yeah, it was Covid. Um, it's like
September of 2020. We had been in. In and out
of lockdowns. And, uh, I was a youth pastor at
the time. So, um, I was
making some videos just to, like, send out to them.
Um, but I started making those
videos because when I was making the phone calls,

(10:06):
family started being like, wow, we're talking a lot about hell, uh,
around the dinner table. And I was like, okay,
um, talking to kids and them being like, do you think I'm a lukewarm
Christian? I'm like, that is not a term you're hearing
from our stuff. Like, where are you getting that?
And it was TikTok. Um, and I'd been on TikTok, but the
algorithm is pretty good. And it knew, like, I didn't want to
hear that, like, Theo bro

(10:28):
crying video. Like, it never sent me those.
Um, so I asked the kids to start sending them to me, and I made
responses from that, you know,
I have always kind of been someone who
can translate, uh,
biblical things into, like, the language of
someone else. So seeing how
jokes and things develop on TikTok, I was like, oh,

(10:51):
yeah, that's kind of like, you know, Mary and
Martha, when Jesus opens up Lazarus Tomb, and like,
oh, no, it's going to smell that. You know, like, I could see how those
played. And so I made those videos. Um,
and then the one that caught was me
wearing a transgender pride colored stole.
Um, and people just being like, wait, what?

(11:11):
Like, you can wear that in a church.
You can be a female pastor. Even that. Like, we've been doing that for over
60 years, and even that was shocking to people.
Um, you can say black lives matter.
You can talk about, uh, reproductive
rights, and you're not going to get in trouble. I'm like, no, this is all things
that my denomination has already made statements
on. Um, and so from that, people were like,

(11:34):
oh, wow, I didn't know that this
theology was out there. Um, and that
is just like, okay, well, I can reach
you. You're in these zip codes that I call
them theological deserts. They only have one kind of
theology and all the churches around them. So
I can reach you out there. So let's start making content.
Let's start talking. Let's start doing Bible studies on

(11:56):
Zoom and all that kind of stuff. It just kind of grew from there.

>> Loren (11:59):
Now, as I understand it, this really formalized into something
more official, right?

>> Bethany (12:04):
Yeah. So our tapestry. Yeah, our tapestry
is the, like, the official, like, ministry.

>> Loren (12:10):
Okay.

>> Bethany (12:11):
Um, it's, um, we meet on Tuesday
nights to Bible study. I do pastoral care
calls. Um, we do have, like, elbow to
elbow events, which is, like, in person. I don't like to
say in person because I'm still in my person when I'm
online and in Zoom meetings. So, um, we call them
elbow to elbow events.
Um, we just

(12:32):
try to create as much
hurt as we can in digital
spaces. We have a discord. So we can pray for each
other and ask for support, um, celebrate with
each other. So, yeah, it's been really wonderful
to see what, uh, what the spirit can create, even
though we are all thousands of miles away from each
other.

>> Loren (12:54):
Yeah, it's interesting because, uh, again, like you said,
depending on the part of the country and especially if it's small
town, it's
going to be hard for someone to find a,
uh, church. I mean, again, I think, like you said,
your terminology, I think probably comes from food deserts. Right.
You know, similarly theological deserts, like, they're just

(13:14):
Not. And that does have a, uh. That does
have an impact. So I can imagine folks.
So, uh, I'm curious, like, how do
folks. What's. I don't spend a ton
of time on TikTok, so my questions may be a little bit
janky, like, what tends to. How do you. How
do you find people? How do they find you? What's. Like, what do you hear? What do
you hear from folks?

>> Bethany (13:35):
I mean, I think the only people who understand how an
algorithm works are the people who wrote it and the Holy Spirit. Like,
really, it is a lot of Holy Spirit stuff
of, you know, people being like, why are you on
my. For you, Paige. But wait a second. I actually really
needed to hear that today. M. It is a lot
of that. I will say, you know, you can use the

(13:55):
hashtags. Uh, once you get a
following, the algorithm starts to know, like, kind of who
follows you and what kind of other people might
match that, you know, profile.
Um, so, yeah, it's for you page. It's scrolling
through. It is a little bit of word of mouth. You know, people
share my videos with other people. Um, and so
then they, you know, will follow me back as

(14:17):
well. Um. Um. So it's just. Yeah,
it is this, like, wild world
that it works. Um, but
the Spirit knows how to make it work somehow.

>> Loren (14:29):
Well, I am relieved to hear that
algorithms are not,
uh, I say this somewhat
tongue in cheek, but in some seriousness. Like, it does seem
like the algorithm has a way
to shape and mold minds. And I'm
glad to see that you've experienced
God working amidst, in spite of

(14:50):
whatever we want to call it, those algorithms. So
that's cool to hear.
What is about TikTok? What is it about? Again, you
mentioned kind of other platforms you're using. What is it about?
I don't know if you want to go through platform or platform. Answer this how you
want. What is it about these platforms that make, you know, reaching
out to people and connecting with people, where they're at. Unique.

>> Bethany (15:11):
Yeah, I mean, TikTok specifically, the algorithm is
really good at knowing people are multifaceted.
Um, that you're not just Christian. You can be
progressive Christian or queer Christian or, you know, so,
like Instagram. It's taken me a while to find
the right side of Instagram because it kept pushing
me into, like, just Christian general world.

(15:32):
And those people don't like me. And they make it
very clear and known that they don't like me.
Um, but the algorithm can't tell if a comment is a hate
comment or a Positive comment. So, yeah, in
Instagram's mind, it's going, oh, people are engaging. This is the right spot
for her. And it's like, no, this is not the right spot for
me, Instagram. But TikTok is, like,

(15:52):
really good at being like, oh, it wasn't that. It's,
like, slightly more like this. And it just can
tweak, uh, itself really well.
Red Note was the one that came out during the band that was
also, um, owned in the Chinese
sphere. Um, and again, like, in a week, I
got 200 followers. There's just something about the way they've written
this algorithm over there that they understand

(16:15):
that people are not just one type of
thing, they are many things. And they might be a different
thing when they get on next week. You know, like, they can
really shift gears really quickly, um, in their algorithm.
So it is. It is something that I hope
we can find a way for everyone
to get along so that we can keep

(16:35):
it. Um, because social media is one of
those things, like, when you can scroll through,
see other people's lives, see some joyful
things. Like, it is. It can be like a drug,
right? Like, it takes you completely out of your
world, takes the edge off of whatever happened to you
that day. Um, and I think it
should be used, like, we think about drugs,

(16:58):
like, in these smaller portions. Um, um, there.
It's a really great place. Yes. It's
gonna assume who you are and so you can be
intentional about. Hey, I haven't seen anything
from a black creator. Uh, let me go and search
for that. So that, um, it's. It doesn't put you
into these pigeonholed corners. So there is a way to be really
intentional with the. The people that you're following and the

(17:21):
way that you're scrolling, um, to kind
of take the advantages and the disadvantages, leave
them, you know, off to the side.

>> Loren (17:28):
Okay, let me ask a quick question then. Just like. Because
you mentioned what Red Note. And I was like, I don't know what the heck she's talking
about. But then I was just remembering, like, I looked at my
TikTok last night, hadn't looked in a while, and I was.
Had a couple requests to follow me on Lemonade. What the heck
is. Is that a thing then? What is that?

>> Bethany (17:45):
So with the, like, looming ban, what's happening? Lemon
8 is, um, an American app
that creators are trying to go over
to. Um, um, there's one called Fan Base
that's supposed to pull all of your fans and all of your
material. I've deleted that One that, when I wasn't, it
wasn't working. RedNote, um, is another Chinese
one. Like, it's all in Mandarin. Like, I might have signed

(18:07):
up for the Chinese Army. Like, it was in Mandarin when I
said, yes, I accept these terms, you
know, but that was kind of like a, you know, thumb in your nose at the
man. Like, well, you don't want us talking to China. We're going to go talk to
China. You know, um, you know, Instagram,
your YouTube, uh, there's one that's coming out that I'm really
excited about called Neptune that is created

(18:28):
by creators, um, but Also the
like, CEOs and stuff are all women. So I'm hoping they'll have some
better terms for the haters for the
negative, um, social impact. I think they'll be really
mindful of that. Um, so, yeah, there's lots of
apps out there and right now I'm kind of
just like posting the same video on like six different
apps going, I don't know where we're going to all end up, but

(18:51):
you know, I'll be there.

>> Loren (18:53):
It feels like we are kind of in that time again
where social media is going through a churn
cycle. Uh, like, because again, like, it
was like, I really do miss Twitter. Like, I really
feel like Twitter was a really good platform for connecting with
people, getting different ideas, talking folks. And
obviously like what, two, three years ago that kind of

(19:13):
got blown up and now we're getting in that, in that kind of like word
based social media app. You
know, blue skies coming in. Obviously Threads has
tried to make an impact, but then folks are like, do I want like
all my social media be under meta and
zuck? So the same thing, I guess is
happening with the, uh, the video base. Right. It sounds like

(19:33):
TikTok competition. So
TBD, I guess on that. Right?

>> Bethany (19:37):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's everyone going, okay, if TikTok
does get banned, there is a huge market,
uh, of people that are going to be, you know, looking for something. So
who's going to win? Is it going to be Instagram? Is it going to
be something else? And um, so that's kind of why
it's turning over. Because before
we were all happy with TikTok. We're like, we did it, it's

(19:58):
good here. So now we're just
trying to find a place to put our head if that goes
away.

>> Loren (20:05):
Yeah.
So I want to move into, I want to talk about some of the things
you've kind of mentioned here offhand. Just obviously, uh,
social Media has been criticized for amplifying
extreme voices, creating echo chambers. I mean, you kind of mentioned
it that in some algorithms, like they don't
care if it's a like or, or a hate comment.
Like, it, it raises profiles. And

(20:25):
I think again, I'm going to kind of devil's advocate here.
Like, that's kind of one of my hang ups about
social media is like someone can really just put
anything out there. Just
be. And because it's gonna get hates or likes,
it's gonna grow them, it's gonna grow
the comments, gonna grow their reach, blah, blah, blah. And it

(20:45):
sounds something like good content. So
talk through that. How you, how you navigate that.

>> Bethany (20:51):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the rage bait is definitely a
thing. Um, it is,
you know, people will like misspell a word,
uh, on their, on the screen and then people would be like, it's
at not as. You know, like, that's how
I've used it a couple times just to like play around with like,
can I, can I get some rage bait attraction? Uh,

(21:13):
um, again, like, you just have to be aware that
this is happening to you. I mean, it happens when you Google
things. Um, if I Google, you know, what does the Bible
say about abortion in Colorado? It's going to give
me a different answer than if I do that in North Carolina. Yeah,
we just have to be aware that we are being
manipulated. Like, there is no, you
know, there's no going around that anymore.

(21:36):
Um, you know, teach our kids, teach our
parents, our, our grandparents, like you are being
manipulated. Um, but
then once you know that, then you can
do the two, three, four steps
to readjust. You can go to page three and
see, you know, what else does it say? You can ask a better
question, um, to get a

(21:58):
better search result, you can look at different
hashtags and readjust who you're
following. So you can be really intentional and kind
of. But again, like, if you're going on there just
to like feel good and see good things,
um, then you're not being intentional
about it. You just. I kind of like once a week I'm
like, okay, let me go through with intention and see who's

(22:21):
coming up on my for you page. Um, there are
apps like Instagram, I don't know if they've rolled it out
yet. Um, started some things where
it changes the way your for you page comes up where like,
you see your following the people you're following
first, um, to kind of get rid of this
like doom scrolling of all this
new content. Like, show me the people I care about

(22:43):
first, and then I'll go and do some other things.
TikTok, um, has just started. Um, you
can, um, turn on and off different
topics. So, like, I was on vacation a couple
weeks ago, and I turned off the,
like, social commentary, current events
tab so that, like, I just don't want to see it. I'm on
vacation, right? Yeah. Turn up the puppies. Turn up

(23:05):
the good stuff while I'm on vacation. Yeah.
Um, so there are
features that these apps are, like, hearing us
say, hey, this is really weird. I
don't like this. They're giving us features. We
just have to know that they exist and actually engage
them.

>> Loren (23:22):
Okay. Forgive me for staying on this, like,
oh, all the bad sides of social media, but I feel like I have to ask these
questions.

>> Bethany (23:28):
Yeah.

>> Loren (23:29):
So what was it? A few years ago, right, There was a documentary on. Was it
Netflix? About, like, all those Facebook
and all those kind of social media engineers talking about just how
it's, like, engineered to. I mean,
you use a word to be used like a drug.

>> Bethany (23:44):
Yep.

>> Loren (23:45):
So we know this to be true. How do you then a,
uh, like, make sure you're not kind of feeding into that? And
again, I. I want to acknowledge, like, this is a very
controversial or not controversial. It's very complex,
complicated situation because, like, to not be on these
spaces, just to not be like. It just be like, oh, yeah, we're going
to pretend all these people don't exist. Like, I don't think that's an option. Just not
be on those spaces. So how do you. How do you utilize the space

(24:07):
without feeling like you're feeding into, like, the. The,
you know, the constant, like.

>> Bethany (24:14):
Yeah, well, I mean, as a creator,
um, I.
I mean, one. I know my message is, one,
to lift people up. M. I am
focused on, like, how do you engage with your
theology better? Um, so, you
know, I'm very sure I know what my message is. And
so people are following me. That's, you know, what they're going

(24:37):
to get from me. Um, you know, I try
not to use the, like, rage bait, you
know, manipulation stuff, but those numbers
are really enticing. Like, I will say,
last year I did a lot of wrestling of,
like, oh, like, the bots are going away now the numbers are
going down. Or, like, you know, how do I get those numbers up
again? Um, this one got more likes, and so why don't

(25:00):
I create another video exactly like that to get more likes? Why
don't I? You know, it's so. It is
something that you have to Be very aware
of. Um, and as a creator, now
that this is my job, I have
that ability. Um, but I can see, you know,
teenagers who are just kind of posting things here and there, how it

(25:20):
can be really hurtful and harmful to them to be like, oh, I
need to get more likes. I need to get more comments.

>> Loren (25:24):
Yeah.

>> Bethany (25:25):
Um, but again, you know,
we're not getting away from it. Like, if it's not TikTok, it's
gonna be something else. It's gonna be Facebook. It's gonna be. So we just have
to know. We just have to do some parenting of
ourselves and the next generation to say,
this is how you kind of stop that cycle when you
start feeling this way, you know, do this other
thing and, um, teach ourselves how

(25:48):
to. To get it, get away from that. I mean, it's.
You can block people. You know, if you see someone coming up who's,
like, doing the manipulative crying, I need you to know, Jesus,
you can block them. You know, I wish my haters would do that more
often. Like, stop engaging with me. Just block
me, please, people. Someone commented last week, like, I
wish you would go away. And I kind of like,

(26:09):
cheeky, cheeky. I was like, there's actually this great feature
on this app called Block that you can make me
go away forever. Um, but they
just don't.
They just love to comment and see if they can get under my skin. And, you know,
sometimes they do, and most of the time I just laugh and roll my
eyes and block them.

>> Loren (26:26):
Okay, this is good. This is good. So how do you, like, what do you.
What do you do for yourself, maybe to kind of stay,
you know, not. So you're not staring at your phone all
day. To. What do you
help coach? I don't know what the word is. Like, your
followers, what do you. What's your own kind of thing you can
write?

>> Bethany (26:44):
Yeah, I mean, um, so the
hater comments are one of the things that, like,
I have had to learn. Um, you know,
I want to come back. I want to gate. Like, I want to, like. And
so, like, when I'm feeling that, like, high up in my chest zinger, I know
that that's. That's a different feeling than if I'm, like, actually
trying to educate and engage and be, you know, more

(27:05):
loving. So I've learned, like, okay, if that's the energy
I'm feeling up here in my chest, that's. I'm not going
to respond. Yeah, um, I did take, like,
a break of. And, uh, I'm coming to the End of it.
Of like, not engaging with haters. I've
broken that a couple times, but it's really helped me
hone in how and who I want to actually
engage with. Um, so giving myself permission to just

(27:28):
be like, just delete and block. Just delete and block.
Um, I will. For my personal,
like scrolling, um, I
will there. On TikTok, there's a way you like press and hold
and it can say, I don't want to see this, I'm not interested. So you can
kind of train the algorithm a little bit. And I will
say, since that quick ban happened, I have

(27:48):
seen more MAGA content on my page than I've
ever seen before. I've never seen any of that. And
I see it, uh, at least three or four videos a day of it, and I'm like,
why? Why is it just suddenly coming up? So
like, my government is afraid of me being
manipulated by China, but totally okay with manipulating
me themselves is essentially what that is.

>> Loren (28:08):
Yeah.

>> Bethany (28:09):
So you notice those things, you block the creator, you
say, I'm not, uh, interested in this content. Um, actually
doing those things. Don't just scroll by. Actually
doing those things are the things that are going to save you in the
long run. So that's why I try to tell people
looking up hashtags, you know, if you don't see any
black creators or queer creators or disabled

(28:29):
creators, like go and look it up and then watch a couple of
those videos, like them, comment on them, follow people,
and your algorithm will start to
redirect itself and recorrect and say, okay, this person does want
to see this stuff.

>> Loren (28:43):
Okay, last, like, hard question I've. I have to ask
because you kind of mentioned this whole. When was that? Like, was it
November? No, November. January 9th.
When was the date?

>> Bethany (28:52):
No, the 19 9th. 19th is
after the inaugural. No, it was right. Right before the
inauguration.

>> Loren (28:58):
Yeah, that's Right. I have January 6th in mind for other
reasons.

>> Bethany (29:02):
Yeah, right. Yeah.

>> Loren (29:03):
So January 19th. Right. Like, it went dark
and it was like, so,
ugh. I don't want to get into that frustratingness of the
back and forth talk.

>> Bethany (29:13):
Yeah.

>> Loren (29:13):
That being said, I think. Excuse me. I think there is
some element. Again, this is my perspective.
Like, like I have
stacks of books all around me that I read and I think,
like, reading books is probably a more useful
time, but I do enjoy, like flipping through videos
too. Uh, but again, devil's

(29:34):
advocate, like, is there some merit to
this idea that, like, TikTok is kind of melting our brain?
A and like, B, like, it's kind of
ruining the. The conversation because like you said, how.
Whether it's China who's manipulating us, whether it's
far right voices who are manipulating us. Like,
again, I'm, uh, this is a high level

(29:54):
cynical question, but like, like,
is TikTok? I mean, really, is social media, like,
worth the mess?

>> Bethany (30:01):
The potential mess,
I will say. Um, the thing I
think the ban is truly
about is that on social media
they can't control the narrative.
So I follow mothers in
Palestine.

>> Loren (30:19):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (30:19):
And so I get to see exactly what is happening
on the ground in the moment from the people who are
experiencing it. My government can't control
that narrative. And that, I think is what they are mostly afraid
of, that we are able to talk directly to each
other, to learn to
love each other. And so they can't tell

(30:40):
us who is the bad guy.

>> Loren (30:42):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (30:43):
Um, and that, I think is the thing that
scares the man the most about social media. And the thing
I think is the biggest
value of social media is that I can find out.
I follow someone who is, has,
don't. Doesn't have arms. They do their makeup every
morning. It is amazing. You
know, so now when I see someone who doesn't have arms,

(31:06):
I'm not going to think, oh, they're not able to A, B
or C. Uh-huh. I know that they probably
can and probably better than I can. Um,
so it's a very amazing social
teaching tool. I know
more about transgender surgery because there is
someone out there who's willing to answer the questions that I
would never ask any of my trans friends because

(31:28):
it is an inappropriate question to ask. But I can
hear the answer from someone who is willing to be a
teacher for their experience.
Um, and that's what I think. Social media,
why we need it. Um, yeah.
And put humans in any kind of space.
We will.

>> Loren (31:47):
That's true. This is true.

>> Bethany (31:49):
It will be a hellhole because humans
just love to make spaces, hellholes. Um,
but if we can focus on
why it is important for us to be
social and be together, social
media just amplifies that.

>> Loren (32:05):
I'm appreciating that last point you made about human
nature. I mean, certainly in Christian
teaching we have language, we have theological
language around that we can dispute,
or we can debate the finer elements of
the sin nature, the sin element of humanity. But I think that's
an important point that I
think is not talked about enough. I'm

(32:28):
thinking of past guests who have
made this point. Again, I'm thinking Ted Smith,
Elesha Coffman, who've kind of made this point like humans are going
to human, whatever context we're in. So I think I'm
glad you made that point. So I'll
kind of back uh, off these hard hitting questions here
and, and throw you, throw you a break
here.

(32:49):
So this kind of, I think
you kind of might have addressed this point. But let's just, let's just
uh, go to this just for specifically what are
the biggest misconceptions m that folks have? So like
again, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're, you're in the, working in
the PC USA space primarily, right? Or at least that's
your church tradition. What are like folks being

(33:09):
like, you know, when you're, when you're at a
clergy gathering or you're in like a official uh, church thing where
there's clergy and there's lay folks, what are people like,
oh, here's Reverend Bethany, like TikTok
Pastor, you know, what are the biggest misconceptions folks
are giving you?

>> Bethany (33:25):
Yeah, I mean I do think,
um, talking about it as
evangelism has helped a lot, um, in that
kind of idea of like, why do we do this? I um, just
wrote an article for Presbyterian, ah, Outlook magazine
about like the need for public theology.
Um, and I think that has helped.
But yeah, when I wrote the first grants, it was like, okay,

(33:47):
cool. And then when are you gonna actually start a church? And I'm
like, hold on. We are actually a
church. Um, you know, we do Bible study, we have worship
times. We, you know, we don't, we're not worshiping Sunday at 10:00am
mhm. But we have a discord where someone
comes in and goes, you know, my, my
nephew was murdered just now. Well then we're

(34:07):
all gathering together right then and there in that space,
you know, sending uh, prayers and talking with
them and checking in on them. Like that is worship.
That is us being together, being
the body of Christ. Yeah. So you know,
it happens in different ways. Um, I
think you know a lot of misconception.

(34:28):
I love when like the older clergy
will like come up to me and be like, oh, but TikTok's just a bunch of
half naked dancing girls. And I was like, oh, you just told on
yourself. Because that means that those are the
videos you're watching all the way to the end. Like, you don't have to
engage or like, like, or comment. But if you watch a video to
the end, that algorithm knows you like it and so it's going

(34:48):
to send you another one. And so, um, you just
told on yourself on what you're doing with your social media content.
So, like, people think, like, oh, you know, the algorithm is racist.
Well, it's the people that use the algorithm
to tell it what to do. And so it's probably the people that are
racist. Um, so just like, some of
those, those misconceptions about the space that I'm using.

(35:10):
Um, yeah. Is. Is it a real
ministry? Am I, Am I a real pastor?
Um, all that kind of stuff. And that's why I'm really glad that
I initially went with the name rev Bethany and not
something else, because I'm like, I am a reverend. I have that
title. Um, and it's been important for people
to see, like, a pastor

(35:30):
saying these things, um, saying God loves
you. So I think people just don't
understand the impact.
Um, you know, is this the end goal? What is the end
goal? This is the end goal. Like, the end goal is that
more people know God loves them. And that's what I do every
day.

>> Loren (35:46):
Well, that's. That's a lead to another question I was going to ask, like,
thinking about the end goal.
Like, I think I listened to a podcast with
you being interviewed some time ago,
and I remember there being discussion about, like,
some of the work you do is to helping people find a
church, get, uh, into a different church. Talk more
about, like, I think. I guess I'd say it this

(36:07):
way. Like, I think there's certainly in our
context, in our culture, like, there's going to some people, like, I wish
it were different. Like, I wish folks felt comfortable. I wish
their church is comfortable for them where they could just walk into a church
again. But I think realistically that's not possible. Like,
so I almost think some of what you do is, like, missionary work,
which, I know that's a loaded title, but since

(36:27):
we're using evangelism, we can say missionary work, right? Like, you're trying to
reintroduce people to the, to the faith in some way. Like,
so I don't want to say, because end goal is very,
like, specific and. But, like, what do you see as,
like, some of your different outcome goals? Like, obviously
you mentioned, like, showing people God loves them. Like, is getting
people back in church part of your goal? What does that, what does that look

(36:47):
like?

>> Bethany (36:48):
Yeah, our tapestry is a bit of a triage
tent, um, where people come in really
hurt and some of them heal to the point of,
like, oh, I'll go to church, like, last Easter.
I, uh, think these are just people who told me, like,
11 people actually told me their Families walked into a
church for the first time in years. So they,

(37:09):
some of them do heal enough to go back into
those spaces. Um, some people
are, um, you know, my pastoral care
calls are like, please don't believe in God anymore.
Because that word God and that relationship
is so toxic and abusive. Like who you
think God is is not.
Not who I believe God is. But they need to drop

(37:32):
God for a little while.

>> Loren (37:33):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (37:33):
Before they maybe, hopefully will rebuild
that. Um, so some people, it's just like, let's
unpack enough religious trauma so you can live your life away
from the church and not have this come up
constantly. Religious, um, trauma is,
I would say, the worst because it is your
worth, it is your purpose, it

(37:53):
is the, uh,
quintessential. You know, why do I exist and why
do you know that permeates
everything about you? I've got people who
can't drive over bridges because the idea of
going bridging over to the next life is
terrifying to them because they think they're going to hell. Like,
it really gets in there. So religious

(38:15):
trauma, if people can just drop a little bit of that with me
and then move on, great. But I
mean, I talk a lot about decluttering faith. We've got this whole
deconstruction thing. I don't. I think that word's being
used in ways now that I don't like. So I talk
about decluttering. Faith
needs to be decluttered for your whole life, just like

(38:36):
your living room. Uh, we need to move some things around.
There are things in faith and theology that we have put in the
bathroom that no one talks about that we need to bring
out into the living room. We need to talk about it.
So this language of decluttering.
There'll be a book coming soon.

>> Loren (38:52):
Um, yeah, I'm excited.

>> Bethany (38:54):
Let me know next because I'm, uh, excited about
that. It's really helpful for
people when I start talking about decluttering because they understand
that, yes, there are times in your life of decluttering
that you just put it in a box, you put it in a closet.
That's great. Love it. Do it.

>> Loren (39:09):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (39:10):
And then hopefully there's a time we pull that box out again. So
our tapestry. There are people who are going back to church.
There are people who live in like, you know, big cities
that are like, oh, you know, they're not in a theological
desert per se, but the building of a
church is terrifying to them.

>> Loren (39:26):
Sure.

>> Bethany (39:26):
And so if I can like, uh, we. Our last
elbow to elbow event was here In Denver. I took the group to a church where I was
preaching at and they were like, we sat through a
whole church service, like liturgical church service.
And I didn't feel shame or guilt. They're like, this is possible. I'm
like, I've been telling you it's possible. But for them
to, for me to be with them in that has

(39:47):
been really helpful. So I want to do that more to just like show
up in town and say, let's go to this church.
Um, you know, one person went into the bathroom
and there was a picture of Jesus laughing. And they came out
and they're like, rev, can Jesus laugh?
And I'm like, yes. But they came from the
space where Jesus was always very stoic and you
know, sad or you know, teaching. And like they

(40:10):
just didn't, it didn't dawn on them that uh,
Jesus laughs and that just seeing that picture.
But they weren't going to walk in that building unless I was with
them. And we had already done work for them to be like,
okay, let's give it a chance. So that's what our
tapestry, and some of some people I think will probably just
stay with our tapestry for a long time. Like it's just not, they're not going
to go back into another kind of Christian space, which is

(40:32):
also totally fine.

>> Loren (40:35):
I'm so intrigued. We're gonna have to talk more about this.
I'm so intrigued by your decluttering versus deconstruction. Like,
uh, I feel like every day I still get sent books on deconstruction.
I'm like, uh, have. Haven't we like worn the heck out of this
theme already? Like enough, you know, I
know the.

>> Bethany (40:50):
Reason the book isn't out yet because I'm like, the world does not
need another, you know,
book. But yeah, with all due respect to.

>> Loren (40:57):
Like first time authors getting published, like, good for you. I'm
excited for you. Like, that's a goal of mine too, I think someday.
But like so good for you if that's your thing. But also like,
I mean I am kind of just over like this whole like, let's just
take a sledgehammer to everything. So I'm really intrigued by your model
of like we're going to declutter.

>> Bethany (41:14):
Yeah. Uh, there's good stuff we've gotten from
churches with bad theology.

>> Loren (41:18):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (41:19):
They every once in a while they get it right.

>> Loren (41:21):
Yeah.

>> Bethany (41:22):
You know, even my church, you know, I
Missouri send Lutheran. I don't agree with a lot of what they
do, but. But I learned that at church you find family,
you find people.

>> Loren (41:32):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (41:32):
That will support you, that will show up. That's a
beautiful. I don't wanna deconstruct that. That's right. That's correct.
I don't need to do anything with that. But there are
things around it that I need to get rid of.

>> Loren (41:44):
Okay, well, tbd, folks. TBD on that.
Okay, uh, one more question here before we take a break.
This is kind of broad. So again,
answer is how you want, but how do you think do you
being a TikTok pastor, you being a social media pastor, how is
that, like, what are some ways you'd be like, oh, my goodness, I didn't see that
coming. Or this is really. My perspective has really changed.

(42:06):
Share a couple of those.

>> Bethany (42:07):
I mean, the biggest thing is
like, progressive Christians, we need to
realize the voice on the other side is so
loud and so hurtful.
Um, one of the things that, like, I really need to push within
my own community is like, leave a, uh,
kind comment. You may think, oh, this creator gets all
sorts of good stuff. The kind comments,

(42:29):
the smiley faces mean the world
to me because I might have another video that is going viral on
a side of TikTok that I don't want to be on. And like,
two weeks ago, I blocked
300 people on Instagram.

>> Loren (42:43):
Holy smokes.

>> Bethany (42:44):
300 people in one week. They were all Christian.
Every single one of their bios had Jesus is king or some Bible
verse. So, like, our Christian
siblings are really screwing this up for us. Like, we can lament
the church is dying, but there's a lot of the church that needs to
die. Um, and so we need to be louder. We need to be more
supportive of those voices that are giving out
gospel of truth. Um, that

(43:06):
is one thing that drives me nuts. Uh,
but I have
solidified. I mean, it's always a work in
progress, but I am pretty good with my body image
now because the haters have tried to come at
me with every single thing
they have never mentioned. The two things I would say are like,

(43:27):
my biggest flaws. They've never mentioned them. Um,
they'll say things like, oh, nice wig. I'm like, wigs are
perfect. What do you. Thank you. What are you talking about?
You know, they'll, like, say something. I'm like, that is just the most ridiculous
thing. That is not how my body looks. So to
know that, like, the people who are actively trying to hurt
me haven't noticed the flaws that I

(43:47):
look at when I look in the mirror, it's like, okay,
Bethany, you are meaner. To yourself than the meanest
troll on the Internet. Stop it. So they
have taught me a lot of things that I
have, you know, for my self confidence.
Um, you know, I worked in youth ministry
and I thought I knew what online bullying was. I
can't imagine if I got these comments

(44:09):
from people who I actually knew. Like, we
really need to be much more
active, um, with how we're dealing with bullying, which is
why I'm excited about Neptune, because I think they're going to have some cool
controls on there, um, to help with like, Internet
bullying. Um,
uh, there was something. I'll say the question again, because there was something. I was going to go
down a not so negative route as

(44:31):
well.

>> Loren (44:32):
No, I think. Yeah. So I think you shared some, like, ways that
it. That's been negative. But how.
What are some positive, like view changing things or
perspectives that have shifted positively.

>> Bethany (44:43):
Yeah.
Um, as a
pastor, there are things you think about in
seminary that your people are going to ask you about.
The Internet is where people actually ask them
m. What version should I be reading, Pastor? You
know, what does the Bible like, when you're in person
and looking eye to eye with your pastor, you don't, you know, you

(45:04):
don't want to admit what you don't know kind of thing. Um, I
had a youth who had been in my youth coupe for
years, did confirmation with me.
Never asked me a single question. They were just not.
They're not that person. After
maybe a month making videos on TikTok, they asked me a
question and they asked me a really good question. They said,
why does the church have a bad relationship with

(45:27):
sex? Like what?
So the anonymity is a blessing and a curse.

>> Loren (45:32):
Yeah.

>> Bethany (45:33):
The anonymity allows people to ask you those questions and
to open up and to be vulnerable in ways that they're not gonna
be in the pews, in the Bible, study in, you
know, online and looking you eye to eye.
So those things have been really wonderful for me to
actually hear what people are still hung up
on. Um, and then the other great thing is

(45:54):
people still need the gospel.

>> Loren (45:55):
Yeah.

>> Bethany (45:56):
Just general, basic gospel. It
still works. And
that has been an amazing thing for me as a pastor
to be like, you don't have to say anything creative in a
sermon. You don't have to say anything remarkable. Just tell
people about the gospel and what Jesus is.

>> Loren (46:13):
Mhm.

>> Bethany (46:13):
And that is. They. They still need it. They still need
it. And that's been really great.

>> Loren (46:18):
Okay, I told you the last question, but let me ask one more quick
one so you're mentioning Neptune. We talked
about what Lemonade
again. We've talked about how this is kind of a
transition time in social media for me. I feel
like constantly chasing after these platforms is just,
like, exhausting because I'm like, oh, I gotta create
one for myself. I gotta make one for future Christian. Blah, blah,

(46:40):
blah. Like, what are. Like. I, uh, feel like
Instagram is here to stay. Obviously. Facebook feels pretty
solid. Who knows what. What is.
What do you think? What are like, one or two? I can.

>> Bethany (46:52):
I would say where you are scrolling.
Yeah, where you are scrolling is where you start.

>> Loren (46:59):
Okay.

>> Bethany (47:00):
Because, you know, the culture, like, missionary work. I knew the
culture of TikTok. I knew the language, and then I started
preaching in that culture. Um, if
you're a Twitter person, if you're, you know, a blue
sky person, start there.
Um, really, you know, it's this whole
idea of, like, you know, go. Go to the people. Go to where they
are. If you enjoy that

(47:21):
platform, then you're going to know why other people
enjoy it. So you're going to create content that you
would enjoy, and they will enjoy so your people will find
you.

>> Loren (47:30):
So for churches and pastors, then it's not necessarily like we need to be on every
platform. It's like one or two. We feel like you.

>> Bethany (47:35):
Please don't be on every platform. You will
destroy yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Loren (47:41):
All right, well, let's take a break. Uh,
and again, what's the handle then? I usually
ask folks title the book. So I guess we need to say, like, Bethany, what's your
handle for folks to find you?

>> Bethany (47:51):
It's Rev Bethany everywhere. I've been very lucky
that, um, someone else hasn't gotten on
there. Uh, some platforms, there's like, a period, you know,
rev period Bethany. But if you put in Rev
Bethany, it'll. It'll come up. And, um, I think my
picture everywhere is either me with the
transgender stole on or me doing the Macarena
in my collar, so

(48:13):
you'll know it's me.

>> Loren (48:15):
All right, let's take a quick break.
Okay.
We're back with Reverend Bethany Peerbolt.
Thank you for your time. I've really enjoyed the
conversation, and I learned a lot here about
Neptune and lemonade and all that.
All right, uh, closing questions. You're welcome to take these as

(48:35):
seriously or not as you'd like to
Pope for a day or maybe, you know, I feel like I need
to. I feel like I need to tweak these then.
Uh, if the Pope had a TikTok
account,
what would or should the Pope Be
tiktoking.

>> Bethany (48:54):
Yeah. I mean
honestly my initial
reaction is very like Catholic focused of
like he needs to release all the information about
all the sexual assault stuff.

>> Loren (49:06):
Like. Mhm.

>> Bethany (49:07):
If they think they're gonna make it through another couple
decades, they need to get that scandal out of the way.
Um, but I, I think just like the
Pope being fun, like doing dances and laughing
and showing that you can be this
like big leader and you're still a person.
Yeah.

>> Loren (49:26):
Okay, that's good. That was a good answer because I usually tell folks you can take it
seriously or not. So you did both. That's good.

>> Bethany (49:31):
I did both. I'll do both. That's good.

>> Loren (49:33):
Um, okay, I'm going to kind of just like run with
these and make these TikTok social
media themed. What
theologian or historical Christian figure would be the
best follow? Again,
you can do it just in general per platform.

>> Bethany (49:49):
What do you think Mr. Rogers?

>> Loren (49:52):
Okay.

>> Bethany (49:52):
I um. If I can get, if I get to heaven and
he's there and he says that he's proud of me. Like he is definitely one of
the ones that I think about because he was definitely
a trailblazer in that like technology
world and getting in front of people and like if he
had social media he could
really, really help some people. So

(50:12):
Fred Rogers, I wish he could have been
around for this.

>> Loren (50:16):
Okay, I feel like that's cheating because that's like the answer of
all PC USA folks say so.

>> Bethany (50:22):
It is, it really is.

>> Loren (50:23):
Give me like, give me another like would
like Paul. I feel like he'd just crush it on like
you know, Twitter or some kind of like blue sky
type tech space thing.
I feel like Teresa Vavila would be like really depressing
on any kind of deal platform.

>> Bethany (50:42):
Yeah.

>> Loren (50:43):
Any other thoughts?

>> Bethany (50:46):
I don't know, maybe like a, like a Marcus
Borg just like blowing stuff up and saying
outrageous things and okay. He would, he would get. I
think he would love all the haters that would come in his comments and
be like miracles are real and uh, all that
kind of stuff. He would be fun.

>> Loren (51:02):
I mean, okay, I'm a, I'm a big
Marcus Borg fan. I think he did allow in one of his books
and he kind of allow for miracles.

>> Bethany (51:12):
My ah, my like always thought about him is
always just like he believes there are miracles but
they're not like these like paranormal
like things like.

>> Loren (51:22):
Sure.

>> Bethany (51:22):
You know, like defeating the 5000 is like it is a
human miracle that everybody either ate
or passed along the food that they were planning to eat, you know, to
someone else that is a human miracle for sure.

>> Loren (51:33):
Sure.

>> Bethany (51:34):
Um, but yeah, I mean I
think I wish I could sit down with him
and go through every single miracle and be like, yeah, okay, what
about this one? Okay, but yeah, but what about this one? You
know?

>> Loren (51:46):
Well, that's good. I have, I have strong
emotional connection because that was like, his book was like
kind of my branch or bridge,
whatever you know, we want to use to, to
find a more fuller, uh, inclusive faith.

>> Bethany (52:00):
Um, yeah, he's one of those like declutter. He's coming
to the table and just like knocking everything off and being like,
okay, now what are we putting back on the table? Yeah.

>> Loren (52:08):
Okay, what do you think? Again, I'm trying
to think about these questions from a social media
TikTok perspective. A, like if you had to
guess, like which a, which social media
platforms will exist in 5 to 10 years
A and then, um, what
do you think? B. What, what do you think? Like history will. How
will history remember social media

(52:30):
platforms? Mhm.

>> Bethany (52:32):
I mean Instagram is pretty proven that it can
change with the times. YouTube is not going anywhere
fast. Um, you know, I think
Facebook is there until
the Xers are
gone. So um, I think, I
think that's going to really die away.
Um, you know, I don't know what's going to

(52:55):
happen with these like, short form.
I, I do think it could be uh, an
Instagram reels, takes over,
um, especially because it can,
you know, go to different platforms, go to all these different, you know,
threads and Facebook and whatever. That's a really easy place for a
creator to be and then kind of branch out.

(53:15):
Um, so I think those are going to be there. I think
TikTok's here to stay. I mean I think it
might change once capitalism
gets in there, the ads are going to be even worse, you know,
that kind of thing. But I think it's proven
that it's beloved enough that it's going to
be really hard to get rid of it for sure.
Um, how will this moment

(53:38):
be remembered? I really
hope it will be a testament
to
the power of a, of the people's voice.
When the government gets scared or wants to do something,
um, to, to limit that, that
people are gonna, we might joke about it,
you might share memes about it, but we're gonna talk about it. We're not

(54:00):
gonna let them just, you know, try to get rid of something
without any evidence, um, which I think is the biggest problem
in the, in the TikTok pan,
um, case, uh,
that the government was able to redact so much
and Even the lawyers of TikTok didn't get to see those.
Like to say it's top secret and say, like, just trust
us, this isn't good. Like, uh, that's not

(54:22):
how we do this. Um,
it could be that that is remembered because it does go
away, because we do have this season of, you know,
authoritarianism. Um, but
I am so confident in the American system that we will eventually
get back to, like, okay, that's not what we
do. Um, let's pull it back again. Um,

(54:42):
it's a great question, right? It's a great question of
how much, um, should the government be,
you know, keeping us safe from foreign governments
on these devices? And
there are things that they know that I don't know.
Um, but there needs to be more
transparency in what they know and letting me know what they
know. But I also think it'll be a

(55:05):
time where
we do get to talk to one another. We do
get to know each other's stories. And so I think this
will also be the beginning of an
era where it's not
a Wikipedia search, it's a person
search.

>> Loren (55:22):
Interesting.

>> Bethany (55:23):
Let me hear this from a person. Yeah, And I think that will
be a really great thing for humanity
globally. Just that, um, we
can hear the nuances of a, uh,
person's experience.

>> Loren (55:36):
That's really interesting that you said that we needed. We need to
end this, because I need to get off. But, uh, I'm
just thinking, like, that is a really
stark but great example of this
kind of shift culturally from institutionalism to
individualism. Like, Wikipedia is kind of like the
last. Last, I think, or most
recent kind of institution even. Even if it's a

(55:59):
different kind of institution, it's populist,
democratically led, but it's still like an institution where we
know we can find
semi, generally,
generally solid, reliable information versus now, like you're
suggesting. I think this is true. People go to
their content or find a content creator to find
that information. So that's really interesting you said that, um, last

(56:21):
question here, because I do have to run.
Um, what is something hopeful that, uh,
you hope to see from social
media and Christianity combined?

>> Bethany (56:31):
Yeah, I'm really hopeful, and I think it ties
into that Wikipedia thing is like the Age of
Enlightenment has taught us how to know
something and to nail it down and to put it
in black and white. And hopefully we
are getting way beyond that
and know that life is. There are gray areas,
there are things that we, you know, it's true, but it's not

(56:54):
true. You know, at the same time, And
I think that will open up the world to
spirituality. You know, we've had this age
of we learn about physical health, we got doctors. We're in this
age now of, like, mental health and our mind, spiritual
health has got to be next. And so I think
opening up and realizing more that there's more tension

(57:14):
about life than just knowing something. Uh, that
there's more in scripture than just what it says. It
has to have experience infused with it for it
to truly be alive and truly be meaningful. And I think we
are getting there.
Um, the spiritual but not religious movement, I think,
is getting to the point where we can be, like, Christian but
not religious or something. You know, we can nail it down a little bit

(57:37):
more. But I'm really excited to see how
the world, um, starts to embrace spirituality.

>> Loren (57:43):
Well, this is, this is great. I really appreciate your thoughts
here. Again, give your handles. Give your website.
Mostly it's handles, right?

>> Bethany (57:50):
Yeah. Rev. Bethany. Uh, Rev-Bethany
or, uh, slash. What is the little line it'll be in
your notes. Dot uh. Com is the website. You can also
find our tapestry there as well. Um, to join
and, um, be part of an online Christian community.

>> Loren (58:05):
Okay. Find her on all the socials then. Really, uh,
enjoy this conversation.
Bethany, Uh, I always leave people with a
word of peace. We always leave people with a word of peace. So may God's
peace be with you.

>> Bethany (58:17):
And also with you. Thank you so much.

>> Loren Richmond (58:26):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and
find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the
page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.

(58:47):
But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to
the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get
this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.

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