December 9, 2025 • 44 mins
What would happen if churches stopped talking about money with guilt, shame, or fear—and started talking about vision, impact, and opportunity instead?
In this episode, Loren interviews Jason Hanselman, Donor Relations Director and longtime pastor, missionary, church planter, and fundraiser. Jason shares why asking people for money is, surprisingly, one of his most deeply spiritual practices, and why churches must rethink the way they talk about giving if they want to cultivate generosity rather than anxiety.
Together they explore:
-
Why asking for money can be a spiritual experience for donors and leaders
-
How childhood experiences shape our money scripts
-
Why guilt-based “money talks” cause people to disengage
-
How nonprofits have shifted donor expectations—and why churches must catch up
-
How to make giving personal, relational, and meaningful
-
Why younger adults don’t lack commitment—they lack invitation and clarity
-
How segmenting, storytelling, and vision casting can transform a giving culture
-
Why many churches need to simplify their structures, clarify their mission, and make compelling asks
-
How capital campaigns can tie internal needs to external impact
Jason offers honest, practical, field-tested wisdom for pastors, stewardship teams, and anyone responsible for raising money in a ministry context. If you want to cultivate a healthier, more joyful, more spiritually grounded approach to giving, this conversation will give you the tools to start.
Jason Hanselman currently serves as a Donor Relations Director with Mission Aviation Fellowship. His ministry experience spans more than 25 years. He has led in a variety of capacities in kingdom-building roles as a pastor, missionary, church planter and fundraiser. Jason was born and raised in Denver Colorado where he met his wife Mary - they’ve been married for 32 years. He holds a Bachelor’s degree in Ministry and a Master of Arts degree in Education. Jason’s goal is to partner with other Kingdom minded individuals and churches to raise enough resources to make it possible for them to fund their vision and increase their impact. Jason enjoys spending time with his family on hikes and in art museums. Jason and Mary raised their three children in Boise, Idaho: Naomi (25), Grace (23) and Solomon (20). When he has extra time, Jason is a portrait artist and an avid sports fan.
Mentioned Resources:
🌐 Jason's Website: https://fundyourvision.my.canva.site/
📧 Jason's Email: jasonfyv@gmail.com
🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: Sheryl Johnson
🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: JJ Peterson
🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: Mike Cosper
🎧 Podcast Episodes Referenced: Michelle Van Loon
Supporting Sponsors:
Kokoro Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.
Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.
Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
SEO / Keywords
church fundraising, generosity, stewardship campaign, donor relations, spiritual fundraising, money and faith, church giving, nonprofit fundraising strategies, Mission Aviation Fellowship, fundraising without guilt, money scripts, younger donors church, capital campaign ideas, storytelling for churches, Loren Richmond Jr, Future Christian Podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Loren Richmond (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Jason
Hanselman. Jason currently serves as a Donor
Relations Director with Mission Aviation
Fellowship. His ministry experience spans more
than 25 years. He has led in a variety of
capacities in kingdom building roles as a pastor,
(01:06):
missionary, church planter and fundraiser. Jason
was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, where he
met his wife Mary. They've been married for 32
years. He holds a Bachelor's degree in ministry
and a Master of Arts degree in education. Jason's
goal is to partner with other kingdom minded
(01:26):
individuals and churches to raise enough resources
to make it possible for deaf people all over the
world to see Jesus in their heart. Language. Jason
enjoys spending time with his family on hikes and
in art museums. Jason and Mary raised their three
children in Idaho, Naomi, Grace, and Solomon. When
(01:48):
he has extra time, Jason is a portrait artist and
an avid sports fan. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
Future Christian with a friend. Connect with
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurenresonatemediapro
(02:09):
uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:31):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased
to be welcoming Jason Hanselman to the show. Hello
and welcome.
>> Speaker D (02:40):
Good morning, Loren. Thanks for having me on.
>> Loren (02:42):
Yeah, thanks for making some time for this
conversation. Anything else you want to say about
yourself for our listeners?
>> Speaker D (02:48):
Uh, I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and so, uh, I
enjoy doing that, but actually, uh, one of the
things I really love to do is paint portraits.
>> Loren (02:57):
Hmm.
>> Speaker D (02:57):
So I'm just, you know, when the pandemic hit, I
had nothing to do, so I started to paint pictures
on my garage wall and my wife said, why don't we
just get you some canvases? I. We don't need to
take up all of the space in the garage, so that's
been, um, a great release.
>> Loren (03:12):
That's a really cool thing. And you've kept it up
since COVID I have.
>> Speaker D (03:17):
You know, actually when I, when I left high
school, I thought I would be a world famous
artist. Mhm. Obviously that did not pan out, but.
>> Loren (03:25):
Oh yeah, right.
>> Speaker D (03:26):
Yeah. Well, you have to die, I think, first to be
famous in the art world. Um, but yeah, so I've had
that latent passion there for a long time. And um,
when things got tough, I needed to get creative.
And so that was one of my outlets to be creative.
So really enjoy it.
>> Loren (03:44):
That's great. Yeah, I guess like in a hundred
years, right. Archaeologists. Is that the right
word? Are going to come back and be like, oh, this
is the famed garage of, you know.
>> Speaker D (03:56):
Right. Look at this. Look at these cavemen. How
did they get so advanced in their artwork?
>> Loren (04:03):
Well, thanks for sharing that.
Uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith
background, what that's looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (04:10):
Yeah. So when I went to Bible college in my early
20s and uh, headed into ministry, but it was a non
denominational Christian church and um, I did not
ever think I would be in ministry either. But I
met some people in my life who really lived their
faith out and I thought, man, I really want to do
(04:32):
that. I really want to be that. And I followed
them off to Bible college and then got into
ministry and just served churches and nonprofits.
Um, ever since then. So that's kind of been my
faith journey. You know, my folks raised me in the
church, so I don't have any crazy. I jumped off
the, the rails too far in my life story. But I
(04:54):
wandered a little bit in high school and came back
and then really just found that ministry was a
good fit for me for a while.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Awesome.
And um, what are some spiritual practices? I mean,
it sounds like. I don't know if this is too much
of a stretch. Say, is painting a spiritual
practice for you or anything else you want to
share?
>> Speaker D (05:11):
Um, painting can be. It is not for me. This is
going to sound weird, but asking people for money
is a very spiritual endeavor for me. And here's
why. You know, when, at least when I read the
Bible, I see that Jesus says there's competition
for two things for his love and then our love for
money. M Right. So when I sit in front of somebody
(05:33):
and ask them for money, you can see the wheels
turn like, ah, uh, what am I going to give up in
order to give to help those people? And so it's
just a good time for people to wrestle with that
and be reminded that, um, time is limited,
resources are limited, but this is your
opportunity to make a big difference.
>> Loren (05:54):
Well, that leads well into our conversation that
we're going to have here on stewardship and
fundraising. And I suppose that's a good way to
approach the conversation and maybe let me, let me
address it personally here. Like, I was just
looking at like my giving. From my church. Like
(06:14):
they sent out, I think the third quarter
statements and I was like, boy, I'm not giving
enough. And like I wrestle. I think this gets into
a broader conversation that I'm sure you have to
wrestle with, with organizations and churches and
donors around their own M Money scripts.
>> Speaker D (06:33):
Right.
>> Loren (06:34):
So maybe let's start with that because I think we
all have our own sort of money scripts that
influences how we think about money. What comes to
mind for you there?
>> Speaker D (06:46):
Uh, I think most of us wrestle with money on some
level because we all have sort of a childhood
connection to it somewhere. We were raised, like,
this is how we deal with money. And you look at
your mom and dad and how they dealt with it. Were
they, were they really generous people or were
they not so generous? And I think, um, we just
(07:07):
developed these habits or fears around money. You
know, if you grow up without money, you're always
wondering, am I ever going to have enough? And
sometimes when you grow up with a lot of money, it
doesn't mean much to you and so you kind of get a
little frivolous with it. But you know, in the
donor space, um, people who have wealth don't
(07:29):
think about money the same way that you and I do.
And we approach them to ask them for money, um,
they understand that their wealth is, uh, I want
to say required. I don't know how to say that.
Well, but they know that their money is going to
help people and they want to get a return on that
investment. And so they're sort of waiting and
(07:49):
eager for you to talk about it. But a lot of times
we shy away from that because of our own hang ups
with money.
>> Loren (07:56):
Mm, mhm. Yeah, that's helpful.
Now as we think about, like thinking about COVID
and the years since COVID I mean, I think it's
kind of funny to think about, like we've already
talked about COVID but it almost seems like it's
been a distant memory. Like, have you noticed any
(08:18):
shifts, whether it be in fundraising, specifically
in nonprofit space and church space? I mean,
certainly in church space. Right. There was this
huge bump where so many churches felt like, they
were going to be in dire straits, and then giving
went up drastically. Have you noticed giving
trends changing in these last, what, five years or
(08:39):
so?
>> Speaker D (08:41):
Um, here's what I would say about that. I think
there used to be a time when you could just show
up to somebody and say, hey, give me some money.
And they're like. And they felt guilty or
whatever. Um, and so they would hand it over. But
I think more and more givers, donors, partners,
whatever you want to call it, want a return on
(09:02):
their investment. Now they want to say, hey, I'm
happy to give you this, but please show me where
it's going, what it's doing. How am I making a
difference in the world? How is this funding going
to make a difference in the world? Um, so I guess
they're expecting a higher level of accountability
in that respect. So the organizations that can
(09:23):
show, here's how we're making a difference often
will win, um, more money that way. And the ones
that kind of are lax on demonstrating that they
are really doing something with the money invested
in them are going to struggle.
>> Loren (09:39):
So let's bring this real practical for thinking of
churches. And I think this also applies for
nonprofits, but for a church who, you know, their
primary method of engagement. Right. Is often the
Sunday morning service. And that's kind of a, uh,
not meant to be. I don't know. I wouldn't think.
I'm a pastor. I know you've worked in pastoral
(09:59):
ministry, too. Like, I wouldn't think of that as,
like, a fundraising experience.
>> Speaker D (10:04):
Well, I'm glad I'm here to talk to you then.
>> Loren (10:06):
But, yeah, tell me, like, how do we. How do
pastors. How to. How do church leaders navigate
that space? A, to stay true to their values? And
then I think also B, thinking about, like, the
disconnect of, like, they're so used to just,
like, expecting people to put money in the plates.
>> Speaker D (10:25):
Right, right. Well, uh, you know, I was. Here's a
practical example. I was at a church, I won't say
which one the other day, but they, they did their
air quote money talk that day, which I always hate
when they set it up that way because it makes,
again, it makes giving an enemy, which, um, we
have the most giving God in the world.
>> Loren (10:45):
Real quick, define what you talk about when you
say that. Money talk.
>> Speaker D (10:50):
Um, so the budget is down, the numbers are
crunching. Uh, people aren't going to get paid.
Oh, my goodness. We need to have the money talk
with people. Or this is the annual time of year
where we talk about money. Well, what's funny is
the guy said, uh, we don't really want to talk
(11:10):
about money around here. And here's one of the
reasons why. About 4% of you will leave when we
talk about money. M and I leaned over to my wife
and I whispered, yeah, but the 96% are the ones
who really are engaged with this. So we always
frame it in the negative. It's like the 4% who
don't want to talk about money really maybe not be
(11:32):
invested. And so this may not be the thing for
them. Mhm. But the 96% of us who will stick
around, let's make it a better discussion around
what giving is about and what it will do and how
we can be involved in that. And I think if you
paint a clear vision and you say, here will be the
outcomes to that and here's what we need for that,
(11:54):
more people are willing to come alongside that
than they are the guilt trip.
Like, oh my goodness, we have to talk about money.
So throw your money in the plate. Uh, your granny
and your auntie give, so make sure not to
disappoint them. You know, all of those crazy
things that we talk about. Um, or the, hey, if you
just give up a soda a day, right. You could put
(12:14):
that money in the plate. And it's like, well,
that's not very compelling to me.
>> Loren (12:17):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (12:18):
I'd rather have a soda than not. So have a nice
day.
>> Loren (12:22):
I do like my Diet Pepsi.
>> Speaker D (12:24):
Yeah, well, almost every day you need to convert
to Coke Zero. And I do mean convert. So. Does that
make sense?
>> Loren (12:33):
Yeah, this is good. I mean, I think that you're
hitting on some trends or some. Not trends is the
right word, but, um, tropes, that's what I'm
looking for. That we hear again and again in
church. I'm thinking also of the narrative that
you probably heard as much as I have, like, oh,
(12:54):
churches are money hungry. They always talk about
money. So there's this weird, there's this weird
disconnect or.
>> Speaker D (13:04):
This weird. Totally agree. Yeah, totally, totally
agree.
>> Loren (13:07):
Uh, what is that about?
>> Speaker D (13:08):
Like, I think some churches do just focus on the
guilt and shame side of it. You're going to be a
better person if you give more money or, you know,
the. Church roof is going to leak. And if you
don't give your money, then, I mean, it's just
focused on guilt and shame and you know, I mean,
(13:28):
imagine if we talked about, uh, child rearing the
same way, right?
>> Loren (13:33):
I mean, some do.
>> Speaker D (13:35):
That's good point. But what's been the effect of
that, it's all been negative. Right. And so let's
start thinking about money as not evil.
>> Loren (13:44):
Right.
>> Speaker D (13:44):
But as a resource and a tool. And if we're able to
carefully and clearly tell people what their money
will do, it's way more exciting. Um, and, you
know, it cuts into that, you know, feeling of
guilt. It's like, we're not going to guilt you
into this, but we're going to ask you to join us,
come alongside of us. And I think that's way more
(14:07):
compelling than the guilt trip. Yeah, some
churches do it poorly, so, I mean, there is a
reason why people say those things. I do agree.
But we, uh, need to change how we talk about it.
>> Loren (14:19):
Well, I think about this too, Jason. It's like
nonprofits. Like, I've not been in the nonprofit
space for, uh, uh, when I think like, outside of
church nonprofit space for like, a long, long
time. But it's like nonprofits. Like, I get emails
from some of the nonprofits I support, like,
incessantly, it feels like.
>> Speaker D (14:39):
Right, right.
>> Loren (14:40):
So it's not like they're not talking about money a
lot. So I think. Is it just that, like, churches
aren't talking about money?
>> Speaker D (14:47):
Well, yes, I think they're just talking about the
paper. Like, one of the guys I learned from, he
said we need to stop talking about money. It's
like, um, years ago, decades ago, when the
American, um, Indians were prominent here, they
(15:07):
would exchange wampum, right. Which is a currency
that you and I don't understand. But essentially
that's what we're doing when we send out those
emails. We're just trading wampum with people.
Give us your wampum, we'll give you ours. And, um,
it just is not a good way to talk about money and
to continually put an ask in front of somebody
(15:28):
without talking about the impact or the change.
You know, they just consider you to be an ATM
machine and it's just not a good. It's not a good
way to talk about money.
>> Loren (15:39):
Um, so, yeah, I'm reminded of, like, I was
listening to an interview some, some years back, a
few years back, uh, with like, a executive from
Chick Fil A, Right? And he's talking about how,
like, they have this mindset of, like, where in
most fat fast food companies, it's like they see
someone in line and think like, how can I get the
(16:01):
20 bucks out of that guy's pocket? Whereas Chick
Fil A tries to have the attitude of like, how can
I, I don't know, bring the most value yeah. To
that person and their $20.
>> Speaker D (16:14):
Yeah. I think when we invite people into the
change process and talk to them about the
opportunity that they have to do some good with
their money. Mhm. Um, it's so much better. One
thing that I didn't say that probably we should is
you should also give people a space to say no.
(16:34):
Mhm. Right. I think a lot of fundraisers are like,
man, if they say no, that's the end of the world.
And they don't. It's, you know what it is a
decision that they need to make and you need to be
okay as long as you, you do your very best to talk
about. Here's the change that we're trying to
engender in the world.
>> Loren (16:50):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (16:51):
And you can join us and kind of, you know, like
everything else. Here's the cost.
>> Loren (16:55):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (16:55):
So just serving people better that way.
>> Loren (16:58):
So I'm thinking about when we're thinking about
like messaging and giving people space to say no,
like, is this one of the challenges with churches?
Because like, you're dealing with, I mean, this is
less true like now as it has been historically,
like data suggests, like churches almost
exclusively are like upper class folks. But like,
(17:18):
is this like the challenge of church historically
in that there's different, to use a, uh,
fundraising term, segments?
>> Speaker D (17:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (17:26):
Like, do churches need to do a better job of
thinking about how they're communicating with
their different giving segments?
>> Speaker D (17:33):
I think that would help Loren. Actually, you know,
for me, giving is a very personal thing. And so I
just wish, you know, I never did this when I was
in ministry because I didn't know about it. But I
think we should meet with people as a family or an
individual and to make an ask. Because it's that
personal, right?
>> Loren (17:54):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (17:55):
I mean, oftentimes, you know, we sit in a room and
you've been into these fundraising events and they
make an ask and you look around and you're like,
well, I'm glad John and Jane Smith are here
tonight to write the check. I'm off the hook.
Right. So it needs to be more direct, it needs to
be more personable. But like you said, the word
segment is a good word. It needs to be geared
(18:15):
toward what we think they can or can't do. Um, if
you ask too little, then the guy who can give a
lot says, you must not have a very big vision.
>> Loren (18:26):
Right, Right.
>> Speaker D (18:28):
And then if you ask too m. I'd rather ask for too
much because you can always back that down. It's
like, oh. They're like, I don't have that kind of
money. Okay, well let's talk about what would be
meaningful to you then. Um, and always keep that
in view.
>> Loren (18:42):
Yeah, this is good. I'm thinking about this even
in my own context.
Something I want to ask about is I had this
conversation with, on a past episode with Cheryl
Johnson, who's a, A uh, clergy person in Canada
and also works in the United States. And we talked
about like the donor centered fundraising and how
(19:04):
that model is not always like a perfect fit for
churches because certainly in church space, like
we're asking someone to, like we're asking them to
grow and have a more of a life shaped more by the
gospel message of Jesus. What are your thoughts on
like that donor centered model in like in church
spaces and might it need to be tweaked a little
(19:26):
bit?
>> Speaker D (19:27):
Um, I like donor center models, um, because we're
really just talking about the passion and the
interest of that individual. Um, and also. We just
have to know exactly where we're going with things
too. Because if we just sit in front of somebody
(19:48):
and say, well this is your duty to give, it just
doesn't feel genuine or authentic.
>> Loren (19:53):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (19:55):
Um, but this, you know, this speaks to the point
that you need to really know people. Like if
somebody has worked in the nursery for 20 years,
you probably want to talk to them about giving to
the kids programs first.
>> Loren (20:08):
Right.
>> Speaker D (20:09):
But at the same time, I think going to people and
just asking them what they're interested in,
figuring out what it is that makes them tick, that
you know, hey, you don't just give them one
option. Mhm. Put several options in front of them
to say, you know, we have a, we need some help in
the kids area or we've got this really growing
teens thing or we want to plan another site
(20:31):
someday. Mhm. Which of these really interests you?
How. What would you like to get on board with and
help, I think that's much better than just going
and ramming one ask down somebody's throat and
saying, here's what we need. Give it to us or we.
It's all a bust, it's all lost. So um, that's how
I'm done. That's how I'm donor centric is focusing
(20:53):
on their passions and then presenting a need to
them that they can buy into.
>> Loren (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking
too of, I uh, want to go back to this just because
I think it's important of like the, the money
scripts and the money scripts of the leader or the
pastor making the ask like I'M going to share this
story because I always chuckle. Like several,
several years ago, I was sharing with someone
(21:20):
about, like, how I always felt guilty, like,
sitting in traditional church when the plate was
passed in front of me and like, I didn't put
anything in. Like, I always felt guilty passing it
on. And like, the person I was talking to was
saying how they felt annoyed when someone, like,
skipped them over entirely with a plate, like,
assuming they didn't have any money to give. But
(21:42):
those scripts, those understand understandings of
money, really get in the way of a leader or a
pastor. So what's your best advice to whether it's
maybe it's a pastor thinking through, uh, to use
these words. I've seen a few of these emails
coming up. It's this season in church, like a
(22:03):
stewardship campaign, right?
>> Speaker D (22:10):
Uh, I may not be the best guy to answer this
honestly. I think churches have gone from passing
the plate to putting it at the back of the
auditorium. But I've seen bad things happen in
churches that put it at the back, that never
mention it. Never talk about what the church is up
to and where we're headed and how you can connect
to that. Um, sometimes passing the plate is, like
(22:35):
you said, it's sort of a referendum on your
giving. It's like, I don't need to feel guilty
every week that I don't put a dollar in the plate.
Um, but at the same time, if you haven't thought
yet about what it is you. You're going to give and
how you're going to give, you, um, need to have
that conversation with somebody. Um, it isn't. So,
(22:56):
you know, that's like sort of in the moment. Give
money or you're a bad guy. And I just don't like
that. I think that's the thing that chases people
away. So if it were me, I would really go back to
pastors and I would say, figure out what it is
that you're trying to accomplish here. Figure out
your main priorities attached to that and then
what is it going to cost for this church to
(23:17):
accomplish that mission? M and then talk to people
in real terms that way instead of just giving to
this nebulous black hole. It's like, no, your
funding is helping us do this really great thing
in this community to change lives this way or that
way. And you know, sometimes people are like,
well, I don't really care about that. Politely
help them find another place where they can get on
(23:38):
board with something that's happening. M
Otherwise, you know, that person will kill giving.
Uh, in an unbelievable way to say, well, I don't
know why we're always giving money to this or
that. And it's just like man, with you around,
this is never going to happen. You know, I mean
it's sad but I've seen it happen. Yeah, yeah,
(23:59):
yeah.
>> Loren (24:00):
So let's think about this because this is
certainly a challenge in many churches where older
generations are of uh, a huge part of the overall
budget of giving percentage wise. And certainly
there's some hard facts reality.
Socioeconomically, matter of fact, younger folks
(24:21):
just don't have the levels of income necessarily
to sustain and support. But what do you advise
when you're thinking about whether it's working
with nonprofits and churches to balance out, to
diversify, whatever the terminology is, the, the
givers.
>> Speaker D (24:38):
Yeah, I think with the younger set they would
rather give on their phone than they would in a
paper way. So maybe come up with some kind of a
fun campaign that lasts for a month that you can
say, hey, if you're under 25, we want you to be
involved in this. 20 bucks this month or whatever,
something like that. Mhm. Uh, something highly
focused, short and media, electronic driven. I
(25:02):
guess that's where I'm seeing most young folks
give. You're just trying to maybe build a habit
and connect giving to a real problem.
>> Loren (25:11):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (25:12):
And I think they like that kind of thing. So you
know, whatever your church can do to devise that
method of giving, I would highly encourage it.
>> Loren (25:23):
You talk about building a habit. I think there's
that stereotype that uh, young people, these
younger generations like aren't committed to
institutions or organizations like the older
generations. Do you think it's simple, uh, as like
that the habit hasn't been built for them?
>> Speaker D (25:40):
Uh, well, I think so, especially when it comes
into a spiritual context. But you know, they give
$10 a month to Spotify, they have that habit built
in. So it's not like they don't get it right. No
one has ever really challenged them and just said,
hey, we need you guys, you're a big part of this.
Here's how you can help. You know, I think just
(26:02):
getting engaged in their life to talk about it
instead of being afraid of it, like, oh no, if we
talk about money, the 20 year olds are always
going to run away. And it's like I don't think so.
I think they want that deeper challenge and
commitment and they really want to build something
with you. So give them a chance to do it.
>> Loren (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good thinking about like
again, we've kind of been talking in and around
like churches, nonprofits, back and forth. What do
you think are some practical things a church could
learn from a nonprofit? One example that I've
heard. Uh, I've heard in Southern Baptist spaces,
(26:40):
more and more they're bringing on a stewardship
director in a church, which is surprising, but I
guess not. Are you seeing that too? And then what
do you think other trends that churches could pick
up on?
>> Speaker D (26:52):
Yeah, I'm seeing that a little bit. I like that
idea because it puts somebody directly in charge
of the gifts that come in and the people that are
giving them.
>> Loren (27:02):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (27:02):
I've just been in so many churches where it's just
hush, hush, secretive. And it's like we can't ever
build out a program if we don't know who's giving
and who's not and how to approach them and how to
not approach them. Um, so I think that's a great
start. Hire somebody who will help focus on
building the, I would call it a culture of giving
or a culture of philanthropy. Um, let's get
(27:26):
somebody talking about it more often than just
once a year for the money talk. M. I, um, think,
you know, churches need to do a better job of
figuring out what it is that they're trying to do
also.
>> Loren (27:38):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (27:38):
If that makes sense. It's like, this is our, this
is our thing, this is our hill, this is our cause.
And um, they can articulate it clearly and they
can talk about, you know, what they need to solve
that problem and what it's going to cost. That's
the most practical thing I think you can do. Then
you can sort of figure out, okay, this is the kind
of budget we need to build to make that goal
(28:01):
happen. Um, and it kind of brings everyone
together. I mean if you can get everyone around a
shared vision, uh, it's amazing where that people
find money.
>> Loren (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
You know, this leads me to a more a, uh, broader
thought and I'm curious like Jason. As far as,
like, I know you've worked primarily in non
denominational evangelical spaces. Right. Like
that's your right.
>> Speaker D (28:28):
Correct.
>> Loren (28:28):
So a lot of my background is in mainline more
established churches, like denominational
churches. And I'm wondering like, thinking about
how denominational churches like, often had like
the, the institution, like the denominational
legacy to kind of set their tone. Do you think
that's something that non denominational churches
(28:49):
or evangelical churches have had sort of, sort of
been forced into that's worked well for them is
they've kind of had to Individually, like
establish their own kind of what we're about.
>> Speaker D (28:58):
Yeah, I definitely think it's an advantage if
you're able to set your own tone and your own
agenda. Um, yeah, the main, the mainline church
might have a little bit more difficulty, but um,
maybe they, I don't know how it works. Maybe you
need to lead up a little bit more and say, we'd
really like to initiate this sort of, uh, of a
ministry in our, in our area and here's how we're
(29:20):
going to go about it. Um, perhaps that could be a
good model for other churches in that mainline
denomination. Um, but I definitely think, you
know, the, the standalone or non denominational,
whatever you want to call it, has an advantage.
That way we can pivot more quickly, which is
sometimes really what you need in the, in the
funding world is to be able to just pivot on a
(29:43):
dime. It's like, okay, that isn't working. We need
to recalibrate and keep moving forward with
something that will work.
>> Loren (29:51):
Yeah. Because, uh, you know, I'm thinking like
most denominations will have some sort of like
nationally driven, like national offering,
whether, you know, for the denominational causes.
So there's some sort of like. And I guess it goes
back to this. Right. Like whatever your context is
(30:12):
that I imagine you'd agree with this. Like, you
have to figure out some way of like tying that
into your story. Right. So it makes sense to your
attendees and givers, what have you.
>> Speaker D (30:23):
Definitely. And you can do that, you can tie the
broader story to your local story. Um, as long as
you have a story.
>> Loren (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, that's, that's sort
of it, right?
>> Speaker D (30:37):
Like, uh, yeah, it is.
>> Loren (30:38):
You and I are both familiar with like storybrand.
>> Speaker D (30:40):
Right, right, right.
>> Loren (30:43):
I'll have to reference that past episode. But for,
for listeners unfamiliar, like storybrand is
basically this marketing concept, which marketing
gets a scary, uh, word for many church folks. But
like, what I appreciate about the story brand
approach is really like telling a story and
(31:03):
telling people how they can be a part of that
story, involved in that story. And I mean, I think
this is, I suppose again I'm getting into broader
kind of macro level stuff is like in American
Christianity, at least since like 1950 to 2000, to
some extent, like there's just been this
(31:23):
assumption that you could just kind of roll out a
church and people would show up and understand
like what that church was about and what they were
trying to do. And that doesn't work anymore.
>> Speaker D (31:37):
That's right. That's right. Well, uh, actually,
you know, they think they already know what that
church does when they start one. Yeah, there's a
lot of negativity around that. It's like, oh,
they're the people that fill in the negative
blank. So we have to work twice as hard to get the
story out in a way that's compelling, accurate,
(32:00):
and will involve people in real life change. I
still think, Loren, I still think people want
something deeper and more meaningful in their
life. And that's what we're trying to create here.
I'm not trying to trick people out of their money.
You know, this isn't some sort of a, uh, money
making scheme, you know, like at the back channel,
infomercial stuff. This is, you know, we're really
(32:22):
like, talking about, here's how we really want to
change the world. Let's try and do it. And it's
going to take resources to do that.
>> Loren (32:30):
Let me, let's ask just like a couple practical
questions or, uh, some thoughts. Like, I'm
thinking about, like, the church I attend did a
capital campaign. I m think about a year ago, if
I'm remembering a little more, over a year ago.
And of course, like, they, they had their quiet
phase and then they came out with their, their
public announcement and, you know, great job.
(32:52):
Like, they had like 60% of it funded already, if
not more, I can't remember. So they just did like
a great job. One of the things I really liked
about it was like, in each phase, they had phases.
Was each phase, like, there was something external
about. The funds that were being raised. So
obviously the majority of the funds were like,
building improvements and what have you. But for
(33:15):
each part of the phase, there's some kind of
external project. Uh, they have a parking lot
ministry, which is meant for people who are
unhoused and need somewhere to go. It's like part
of the phase was like, hey, we're going to
remodel, uh, some part of our building to make are
showers accessible for folks overnight.
>> Speaker D (33:35):
Yeah.
>> Loren (33:36):
How have you seen churches do a good job of like,
fundraising? So it's obviously internal. Like
they're trying to pay for the roof, but also to
tell the story, like, hey, this is having a
broader impact than just like, our roof.
>> Speaker D (33:52):
Yeah. So one of the best places I saw that was,
you know, there's a large church there in
Colorado, as a matter of fact, um, they were doing
campaigns to help build places in, uh, parts of
the world where there was a lot of hurt, a lot of
famine. And they're like, hey, we're going to
this. I don't know if I can name the place or not,
but we're going to this place and we're going to
(34:13):
build a hospital and we're going to build a
school.
>> Loren (34:15):
Wow.
>> Speaker D (34:16):
And we're going to do that so well that they're
going to ask us at the end of the day, why are you
doing this? And then the broader context is, well,
we're here because of the gospel. And so I think
if you can, like your church, uh, funding strategy
I think is good. Uh, we're going to set up showers
for, um, that segment of people who are coming.
(34:37):
Here's about how many of them will come. Here's
about how many opportunities we'll have to share
with them. If you talk about how it's making a
difference in those people's lives, that often
tends to be more successful.
>> Loren (34:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything churches should start
doing immediately or stop doing immediately.
>> Speaker D (34:57):
Yeah. Stop the money talk thing. Stop feeling
guilty that you're talking about money. Enough of
that. It's okay to talk about money, but stop also
attaching that to shame and guilt.
>> Loren (35:08):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (35:09):
Right. I think churches need to just get together
and like, uh, what is it that we want to do and
what are we asking people to sign on for? And if
it's not, if none of us are excited about that,
it's time to make a change. So what are we excited
about? What is that going to cost? And let's just
approach people in humility and, uh, also with the
(35:32):
level of excitement that this is really going to
make a difference. Let's talk.
>> Loren (35:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, let's take a break
here, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Jason Hanselman. And
Jason, uh, the closing questions, you're welcome
to take them as seriously or not as you'd like to.
>> Speaker D (35:55):
Okay.
>> Loren (35:55):
But if you're Pope for a day. What do you want to
do? Or maybe some like. Do you have any kind of,
like, direct papa bulls about fundraising? You
know, take it as you want to.
>> Speaker D (36:07):
Wow. I don't. I don't. That wouldn't be any fun. I
don't want to connect that to fundraising.
>> Loren (36:11):
Okay. Okay. Well, be Pope for a day.
>> Speaker D (36:13):
Gone down. That. Yeah, I almost said. And I think
I've heard other guests talk about wearing the hat
or riding in the mobile. Those are great. They've
already been taken. I've always wanted to go to
Italy. Mhm. So I would make it, uh, Art Day. Let's
make it Art Week. My family gets to go and just
(36:33):
explore art Around Italy for a week. That's really
what I would want to do as Pope.
>> Loren (36:40):
Well, the nice thing that you're Pope is like, you
run the show. Like you get the whole museum, uh,
to yourself.
>> Speaker D (36:47):
I would like to touch some of the surfaces of the
paint as Pope. I think you can do that probably if
you go into a museum now, you know, once you get a
foot away from a painting, somebody is on top of
you to give back. So you really want to feel that
paint.
>> Loren (37:02):
You could probably touch that canvas.
>> Speaker D (37:05):
I would wear gloves, I mean, obviously. But I want
to get close to that art. That's really what I
want to do.
>> Loren (37:12):
M Good, Good. A, uh, theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Speaker D (37:20):
Um, you know what? We talk a lot about Dietrich
Bonhoeffer around here. I would love to bring
Dietrich back.
>> Loren (37:26):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (37:27):
Um, just his grit and his tenacity and his. Love
for people who hated him. M just fascinates me. So
I'd love to just have a sit down with Dietrich and
just talk about life and have him. Tell me what I
need to do with my life. Um, I think it would be
(37:50):
an interesting conversation, interesting guy to
talk with.
>> Loren (37:53):
Absolutely.
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?
>> Speaker D (38:00):
I think it depends on which way it goes. Right. I
think it could be the biggest opportunity ever
blown in the history of mankind. Um, because
there's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of
hurt and there's a lot of spaces that church needs
to fill. And so, you know, I know a lot of people
talk about, oh, uh, the world's blowing up, going
crazy, it's the worst time we've ever seen. I
(38:22):
don't know. There's a lot of. I view it as.
There's a lot of opportunity to make a lot of
change, and I hope that's what we do.
>> Loren (38:28):
Yeah, yeah. I'm reminded of. We had Mike Cosper on
some time ago, and he said something like, you
know, it really depends, like, how, how, how
things happen Will, like, depend on how, like, we
view, like, Elon Musk, for instance, like, uh, you
know.
>> Speaker D (38:45):
Yeah.
>> Loren (38:46):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:46):
Well, will our generation see revival like other
generations or not? I mean, I don't know. We'll
see.
>> Loren (38:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Where do you hope for the future of
Christianity? I'm.
>> Speaker D (39:00):
I'm hoping that we. This sound weird and maybe
not, but let's return to where we started. We just
seem. It just seems like we have so many
entanglements and so many things that really
aren't about the main thing.
>> Loren (39:14):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (39:14):
Let's get back to early church days and focusing
on community, focusing on life change, living, uh,
in the power of the Holy Spirit. You know, all of
those things were pretty great.
>> Loren (39:30):
I suppose this gets into a fundraising question to
some extent. Like, I'm thinking of a recent guest,
Michelle Van Loon, who wrote about downsizing
evangelicalism. And part of her, her thing was
saying, like, we don't really need all these
institutions. Yeah, like this is sort of a
fundraising question too. Like. Is there, does
(39:53):
there need to be some simplicity around
organizations and structures?
>> Speaker D (39:58):
Yes, uh, I do. Um, I think just, if we could just
simplify to. Hey, let's think really big. Mm mhm.
Let's build really simple and let's take some
action. I stole those from another group, but I
really think that's the core essence of it.
Instead of, oh, uh, we have to have a major gifts
(40:18):
program, we have to have an annual fund, we have
to have a planned giving, we have to, you know, so
many arms and it's just like, let's just trim the
fat and just get a really great story about a
really great organization, really changing lives
and just go out and talk to people about that and
invite them, give them an opportunity to join that
(40:39):
story.
>> Loren (40:40):
Yeah. So what was that? Think big.
>> Speaker D (40:44):
Um, simplify. And act now. Yeah.
>> Loren (40:49):
Yeah. Well, uh, share with folks how they can get
a hold of you, connect with you, all that stuff.
>> Speaker D (40:55):
Yeah, that's a great question. So, uh, my official
email is Jason FY V as in victormail.com. i just
wrote a fundraising fable that I would love for
people to get a hold of. Um, I'm happy to give
that away free, digitally. Just reach out to me by
email. Um, and that's the best way to get a hold
(41:17):
of me, Loren, is through that email. If people
want to continue discussions about how they can
raise money better or even just say, hey, I have
an issue that I'm tangled up in. Let's talk. Um,
I've had people in my life who've just come
alongside me and done that, giving me a half hour
of their time to say, here's how you need to think
about that differently or here's how you need to
(41:37):
act differently.
>> Loren (41:39):
Yeah. And I've read the book, you know, the
booklet, I guess, if you will. Like, it's uh,
really simple, easy. Like I read it, I think on a
plane ride and like the second half of the plane
ride, like I printed out the book, the second half
of the plane ride, I like scratched out Some ideas
based on the concepts in the book. So really
(42:00):
recommend it, I think, too, like what you've been
saying all along here, simplicity is the way to
go. Like sharing. Sharing stories, sharing
passion, connecting with their vision makes so
much more sense than overloading them with, um,
money.
>> Speaker D (42:16):
Right, right, right. Nobody likes that. Nobody
likes that. Don't do that. I can tell the book
changed your life, Loren. There's a glow about
you.
>> Loren (42:24):
Yeah, I was laughing, like, I mean, uh, we should
wrap up here. But I'm just thinking of my own
experience. I was leading a small church. Money
was a challenge. M. We were 13k in the hole, which
was off a budget of less than 100k. So it was a
big chunk of money, relatively speaking, for the
annual budget. And I got up there and said, hey,
(42:48):
there's some challenges here. But then I
highlighted things that were going right, progress
that was being made, uh, and people were like, oh,
yeah, I'm willing to give more. And then, like,
two years later, I went away on sabbatical. They
had a money crunch and they were like, the ship is
sinking. Give money.
>> Speaker D (43:08):
Oh, no.
>> Loren (43:09):
And the second one didn't work as well. So, yeah,
I mean, it really does make a difference. So, uh,
check out Jason's work. We'll make sure to have
links to him in the show notes. Jason, uh, we
always leave folks with a word of peace, so may
God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (43:26):
Thank. Thanks again, Loren. Appreciate it.
>> Loren Richmond (43:35):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
(43:57):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
church in the 21st century. At the Future
Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and
other faith leaders for helpful advice and
practical wisdom to help you and your community of
faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're
(00:28):
a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of
your faith community, this podcast is designed to
challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools
you need for impactful ministry. And now for a
little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with Jason
Hanselman. Jason currently serves as a Donor
Relations Director with Mission Aviation
Fellowship. His ministry experience spans more
than 25 years. He has led in a variety of
capacities in kingdom building roles as a pastor,
(01:06):
missionary, church planter and fundraiser. Jason
was born and raised in Denver, Colorado, where he
met his wife Mary. They've been married for 32
years. He holds a Bachelor's degree in ministry
and a Master of Arts degree in education. Jason's
goal is to partner with other kingdom minded
(01:26):
individuals and churches to raise enough resources
to make it possible for deaf people all over the
world to see Jesus in their heart. Language. Jason
enjoys spending time with his family on hikes and
in art museums. Jason and Mary raised their three
children in Idaho, Naomi, Grace, and Solomon. When
(01:48):
he has extra time, Jason is a portrait artist and
an avid sports fan. A reminder, before we start
today's conversation, please take a moment to
subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share
Future Christian with a friend. Connect with
Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.
Shoot us an email at, uh, laurenresonatemediapro
(02:09):
uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for
future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how
we faithfully discern the future of the church.
>> Loren (02:31):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast.
This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased
to be welcoming Jason Hanselman to the show. Hello
and welcome.
>> Speaker D (02:40):
Good morning, Loren. Thanks for having me on.
>> Loren (02:42):
Yeah, thanks for making some time for this
conversation. Anything else you want to say about
yourself for our listeners?
>> Speaker D (02:48):
Uh, I'm a motorcycle enthusiast and so, uh, I
enjoy doing that, but actually, uh, one of the
things I really love to do is paint portraits.
>> Loren (02:57):
Hmm.
>> Speaker D (02:57):
So I'm just, you know, when the pandemic hit, I
had nothing to do, so I started to paint pictures
on my garage wall and my wife said, why don't we
just get you some canvases? I. We don't need to
take up all of the space in the garage, so that's
been, um, a great release.
>> Loren (03:12):
That's a really cool thing. And you've kept it up
since COVID I have.
>> Speaker D (03:17):
You know, actually when I, when I left high
school, I thought I would be a world famous
artist. Mhm. Obviously that did not pan out, but.
>> Loren (03:25):
Oh yeah, right.
>> Speaker D (03:26):
Yeah. Well, you have to die, I think, first to be
famous in the art world. Um, but yeah, so I've had
that latent passion there for a long time. And um,
when things got tough, I needed to get creative.
And so that was one of my outlets to be creative.
So really enjoy it.
>> Loren (03:44):
That's great. Yeah, I guess like in a hundred
years, right. Archaeologists. Is that the right
word? Are going to come back and be like, oh, this
is the famed garage of, you know.
>> Speaker D (03:56):
Right. Look at this. Look at these cavemen. How
did they get so advanced in their artwork?
>> Loren (04:03):
Well, thanks for sharing that.
Uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith
background, what that's looked like in the past
and what that looks like today.
>> Speaker D (04:10):
Yeah. So when I went to Bible college in my early
20s and uh, headed into ministry, but it was a non
denominational Christian church and um, I did not
ever think I would be in ministry either. But I
met some people in my life who really lived their
faith out and I thought, man, I really want to do
(04:32):
that. I really want to be that. And I followed
them off to Bible college and then got into
ministry and just served churches and nonprofits.
Um, ever since then. So that's kind of been my
faith journey. You know, my folks raised me in the
church, so I don't have any crazy. I jumped off
the, the rails too far in my life story. But I
(04:54):
wandered a little bit in high school and came back
and then really just found that ministry was a
good fit for me for a while.
>> Loren (05:00):
Yeah. Awesome.
And um, what are some spiritual practices? I mean,
it sounds like. I don't know if this is too much
of a stretch. Say, is painting a spiritual
practice for you or anything else you want to
share?
>> Speaker D (05:11):
Um, painting can be. It is not for me. This is
going to sound weird, but asking people for money
is a very spiritual endeavor for me. And here's
why. You know, when, at least when I read the
Bible, I see that Jesus says there's competition
for two things for his love and then our love for
money. M Right. So when I sit in front of somebody
(05:33):
and ask them for money, you can see the wheels
turn like, ah, uh, what am I going to give up in
order to give to help those people? And so it's
just a good time for people to wrestle with that
and be reminded that, um, time is limited,
resources are limited, but this is your
opportunity to make a big difference.
>> Loren (05:54):
Well, that leads well into our conversation that
we're going to have here on stewardship and
fundraising. And I suppose that's a good way to
approach the conversation and maybe let me, let me
address it personally here. Like, I was just
looking at like my giving. From my church. Like
(06:14):
they sent out, I think the third quarter
statements and I was like, boy, I'm not giving
enough. And like I wrestle. I think this gets into
a broader conversation that I'm sure you have to
wrestle with, with organizations and churches and
donors around their own M Money scripts.
>> Speaker D (06:33):
Right.
>> Loren (06:34):
So maybe let's start with that because I think we
all have our own sort of money scripts that
influences how we think about money. What comes to
mind for you there?
>> Speaker D (06:46):
Uh, I think most of us wrestle with money on some
level because we all have sort of a childhood
connection to it somewhere. We were raised, like,
this is how we deal with money. And you look at
your mom and dad and how they dealt with it. Were
they, were they really generous people or were
they not so generous? And I think, um, we just
(07:07):
developed these habits or fears around money. You
know, if you grow up without money, you're always
wondering, am I ever going to have enough? And
sometimes when you grow up with a lot of money, it
doesn't mean much to you and so you kind of get a
little frivolous with it. But you know, in the
donor space, um, people who have wealth don't
(07:29):
think about money the same way that you and I do.
And we approach them to ask them for money, um,
they understand that their wealth is, uh, I want
to say required. I don't know how to say that.
Well, but they know that their money is going to
help people and they want to get a return on that
investment. And so they're sort of waiting and
(07:49):
eager for you to talk about it. But a lot of times
we shy away from that because of our own hang ups
with money.
>> Loren (07:56):
Mm, mhm. Yeah, that's helpful.
Now as we think about, like thinking about COVID
and the years since COVID I mean, I think it's
kind of funny to think about, like we've already
talked about COVID but it almost seems like it's
been a distant memory. Like, have you noticed any
(08:18):
shifts, whether it be in fundraising, specifically
in nonprofit space and church space? I mean,
certainly in church space. Right. There was this
huge bump where so many churches felt like, they
were going to be in dire straits, and then giving
went up drastically. Have you noticed giving
trends changing in these last, what, five years or
(08:39):
so?
>> Speaker D (08:41):
Um, here's what I would say about that. I think
there used to be a time when you could just show
up to somebody and say, hey, give me some money.
And they're like. And they felt guilty or
whatever. Um, and so they would hand it over. But
I think more and more givers, donors, partners,
whatever you want to call it, want a return on
(09:02):
their investment. Now they want to say, hey, I'm
happy to give you this, but please show me where
it's going, what it's doing. How am I making a
difference in the world? How is this funding going
to make a difference in the world? Um, so I guess
they're expecting a higher level of accountability
in that respect. So the organizations that can
(09:23):
show, here's how we're making a difference often
will win, um, more money that way. And the ones
that kind of are lax on demonstrating that they
are really doing something with the money invested
in them are going to struggle.
>> Loren (09:39):
So let's bring this real practical for thinking of
churches. And I think this also applies for
nonprofits, but for a church who, you know, their
primary method of engagement. Right. Is often the
Sunday morning service. And that's kind of a, uh,
not meant to be. I don't know. I wouldn't think.
I'm a pastor. I know you've worked in pastoral
(09:59):
ministry, too. Like, I wouldn't think of that as,
like, a fundraising experience.
>> Speaker D (10:04):
Well, I'm glad I'm here to talk to you then.
>> Loren (10:06):
But, yeah, tell me, like, how do we. How do
pastors. How to. How do church leaders navigate
that space? A, to stay true to their values? And
then I think also B, thinking about, like, the
disconnect of, like, they're so used to just,
like, expecting people to put money in the plates.
>> Speaker D (10:25):
Right, right. Well, uh, you know, I was. Here's a
practical example. I was at a church, I won't say
which one the other day, but they, they did their
air quote money talk that day, which I always hate
when they set it up that way because it makes,
again, it makes giving an enemy, which, um, we
have the most giving God in the world.
>> Loren (10:45):
Real quick, define what you talk about when you
say that. Money talk.
>> Speaker D (10:50):
Um, so the budget is down, the numbers are
crunching. Uh, people aren't going to get paid.
Oh, my goodness. We need to have the money talk
with people. Or this is the annual time of year
where we talk about money. Well, what's funny is
the guy said, uh, we don't really want to talk
(11:10):
about money around here. And here's one of the
reasons why. About 4% of you will leave when we
talk about money. M and I leaned over to my wife
and I whispered, yeah, but the 96% are the ones
who really are engaged with this. So we always
frame it in the negative. It's like the 4% who
don't want to talk about money really maybe not be
(11:32):
invested. And so this may not be the thing for
them. Mhm. But the 96% of us who will stick
around, let's make it a better discussion around
what giving is about and what it will do and how
we can be involved in that. And I think if you
paint a clear vision and you say, here will be the
outcomes to that and here's what we need for that,
(11:54):
more people are willing to come alongside that
than they are the guilt trip.
Like, oh my goodness, we have to talk about money.
So throw your money in the plate. Uh, your granny
and your auntie give, so make sure not to
disappoint them. You know, all of those crazy
things that we talk about. Um, or the, hey, if you
just give up a soda a day, right. You could put
(12:14):
that money in the plate. And it's like, well,
that's not very compelling to me.
>> Loren (12:17):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (12:18):
I'd rather have a soda than not. So have a nice
day.
>> Loren (12:22):
I do like my Diet Pepsi.
>> Speaker D (12:24):
Yeah, well, almost every day you need to convert
to Coke Zero. And I do mean convert. So. Does that
make sense?
>> Loren (12:33):
Yeah, this is good. I mean, I think that you're
hitting on some trends or some. Not trends is the
right word, but, um, tropes, that's what I'm
looking for. That we hear again and again in
church. I'm thinking also of the narrative that
you probably heard as much as I have, like, oh,
(12:54):
churches are money hungry. They always talk about
money. So there's this weird, there's this weird
disconnect or.
>> Speaker D (13:04):
This weird. Totally agree. Yeah, totally, totally
agree.
>> Loren (13:07):
Uh, what is that about?
>> Speaker D (13:08):
Like, I think some churches do just focus on the
guilt and shame side of it. You're going to be a
better person if you give more money or, you know,
the. Church roof is going to leak. And if you
don't give your money, then, I mean, it's just
focused on guilt and shame and you know, I mean,
(13:28):
imagine if we talked about, uh, child rearing the
same way, right?
>> Loren (13:33):
I mean, some do.
>> Speaker D (13:35):
That's good point. But what's been the effect of
that, it's all been negative. Right. And so let's
start thinking about money as not evil.
>> Loren (13:44):
Right.
>> Speaker D (13:44):
But as a resource and a tool. And if we're able to
carefully and clearly tell people what their money
will do, it's way more exciting. Um, and, you
know, it cuts into that, you know, feeling of
guilt. It's like, we're not going to guilt you
into this, but we're going to ask you to join us,
come alongside of us. And I think that's way more
(14:07):
compelling than the guilt trip. Yeah, some
churches do it poorly, so, I mean, there is a
reason why people say those things. I do agree.
But we, uh, need to change how we talk about it.
>> Loren (14:19):
Well, I think about this too, Jason. It's like
nonprofits. Like, I've not been in the nonprofit
space for, uh, uh, when I think like, outside of
church nonprofit space for like, a long, long
time. But it's like nonprofits. Like, I get emails
from some of the nonprofits I support, like,
incessantly, it feels like.
>> Speaker D (14:39):
Right, right.
>> Loren (14:40):
So it's not like they're not talking about money a
lot. So I think. Is it just that, like, churches
aren't talking about money?
>> Speaker D (14:47):
Well, yes, I think they're just talking about the
paper. Like, one of the guys I learned from, he
said we need to stop talking about money. It's
like, um, years ago, decades ago, when the
American, um, Indians were prominent here, they
(15:07):
would exchange wampum, right. Which is a currency
that you and I don't understand. But essentially
that's what we're doing when we send out those
emails. We're just trading wampum with people.
Give us your wampum, we'll give you ours. And, um,
it just is not a good way to talk about money and
to continually put an ask in front of somebody
(15:28):
without talking about the impact or the change.
You know, they just consider you to be an ATM
machine and it's just not a good. It's not a good
way to talk about money.
>> Loren (15:39):
Um, so, yeah, I'm reminded of, like, I was
listening to an interview some, some years back, a
few years back, uh, with like, a executive from
Chick Fil A, Right? And he's talking about how,
like, they have this mindset of, like, where in
most fat fast food companies, it's like they see
someone in line and think like, how can I get the
(16:01):
20 bucks out of that guy's pocket? Whereas Chick
Fil A tries to have the attitude of like, how can
I, I don't know, bring the most value yeah. To
that person and their $20.
>> Speaker D (16:14):
Yeah. I think when we invite people into the
change process and talk to them about the
opportunity that they have to do some good with
their money. Mhm. Um, it's so much better. One
thing that I didn't say that probably we should is
you should also give people a space to say no.
(16:34):
Mhm. Right. I think a lot of fundraisers are like,
man, if they say no, that's the end of the world.
And they don't. It's, you know what it is a
decision that they need to make and you need to be
okay as long as you, you do your very best to talk
about. Here's the change that we're trying to
engender in the world.
>> Loren (16:50):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (16:51):
And you can join us and kind of, you know, like
everything else. Here's the cost.
>> Loren (16:55):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (16:55):
So just serving people better that way.
>> Loren (16:58):
So I'm thinking about when we're thinking about
like messaging and giving people space to say no,
like, is this one of the challenges with churches?
Because like, you're dealing with, I mean, this is
less true like now as it has been historically,
like data suggests, like churches almost
exclusively are like upper class folks. But like,
(17:18):
is this like the challenge of church historically
in that there's different, to use a, uh,
fundraising term, segments?
>> Speaker D (17:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (17:26):
Like, do churches need to do a better job of
thinking about how they're communicating with
their different giving segments?
>> Speaker D (17:33):
I think that would help Loren. Actually, you know,
for me, giving is a very personal thing. And so I
just wish, you know, I never did this when I was
in ministry because I didn't know about it. But I
think we should meet with people as a family or an
individual and to make an ask. Because it's that
personal, right?
>> Loren (17:54):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (17:55):
I mean, oftentimes, you know, we sit in a room and
you've been into these fundraising events and they
make an ask and you look around and you're like,
well, I'm glad John and Jane Smith are here
tonight to write the check. I'm off the hook.
Right. So it needs to be more direct, it needs to
be more personable. But like you said, the word
segment is a good word. It needs to be geared
(18:15):
toward what we think they can or can't do. Um, if
you ask too little, then the guy who can give a
lot says, you must not have a very big vision.
>> Loren (18:26):
Right, Right.
>> Speaker D (18:28):
And then if you ask too m. I'd rather ask for too
much because you can always back that down. It's
like, oh. They're like, I don't have that kind of
money. Okay, well let's talk about what would be
meaningful to you then. Um, and always keep that
in view.
>> Loren (18:42):
Yeah, this is good. I'm thinking about this even
in my own context.
Something I want to ask about is I had this
conversation with, on a past episode with Cheryl
Johnson, who's a, A uh, clergy person in Canada
and also works in the United States. And we talked
about like the donor centered fundraising and how
(19:04):
that model is not always like a perfect fit for
churches because certainly in church space, like
we're asking someone to, like we're asking them to
grow and have a more of a life shaped more by the
gospel message of Jesus. What are your thoughts on
like that donor centered model in like in church
spaces and might it need to be tweaked a little
(19:26):
bit?
>> Speaker D (19:27):
Um, I like donor center models, um, because we're
really just talking about the passion and the
interest of that individual. Um, and also. We just
have to know exactly where we're going with things
too. Because if we just sit in front of somebody
(19:48):
and say, well this is your duty to give, it just
doesn't feel genuine or authentic.
>> Loren (19:53):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (19:55):
Um, but this, you know, this speaks to the point
that you need to really know people. Like if
somebody has worked in the nursery for 20 years,
you probably want to talk to them about giving to
the kids programs first.
>> Loren (20:08):
Right.
>> Speaker D (20:09):
But at the same time, I think going to people and
just asking them what they're interested in,
figuring out what it is that makes them tick, that
you know, hey, you don't just give them one
option. Mhm. Put several options in front of them
to say, you know, we have a, we need some help in
the kids area or we've got this really growing
teens thing or we want to plan another site
(20:31):
someday. Mhm. Which of these really interests you?
How. What would you like to get on board with and
help, I think that's much better than just going
and ramming one ask down somebody's throat and
saying, here's what we need. Give it to us or we.
It's all a bust, it's all lost. So um, that's how
I'm done. That's how I'm donor centric is focusing
(20:53):
on their passions and then presenting a need to
them that they can buy into.
>> Loren (20:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking
too of, I uh, want to go back to this just because
I think it's important of like the, the money
scripts and the money scripts of the leader or the
pastor making the ask like I'M going to share this
story because I always chuckle. Like several,
several years ago, I was sharing with someone
(21:20):
about, like, how I always felt guilty, like,
sitting in traditional church when the plate was
passed in front of me and like, I didn't put
anything in. Like, I always felt guilty passing it
on. And like, the person I was talking to was
saying how they felt annoyed when someone, like,
skipped them over entirely with a plate, like,
assuming they didn't have any money to give. But
(21:42):
those scripts, those understand understandings of
money, really get in the way of a leader or a
pastor. So what's your best advice to whether it's
maybe it's a pastor thinking through, uh, to use
these words. I've seen a few of these emails
coming up. It's this season in church, like a
(22:03):
stewardship campaign, right?
>> Speaker D (22:10):
Uh, I may not be the best guy to answer this
honestly. I think churches have gone from passing
the plate to putting it at the back of the
auditorium. But I've seen bad things happen in
churches that put it at the back, that never
mention it. Never talk about what the church is up
to and where we're headed and how you can connect
to that. Um, sometimes passing the plate is, like
(22:35):
you said, it's sort of a referendum on your
giving. It's like, I don't need to feel guilty
every week that I don't put a dollar in the plate.
Um, but at the same time, if you haven't thought
yet about what it is you. You're going to give and
how you're going to give, you, um, need to have
that conversation with somebody. Um, it isn't. So,
(22:56):
you know, that's like sort of in the moment. Give
money or you're a bad guy. And I just don't like
that. I think that's the thing that chases people
away. So if it were me, I would really go back to
pastors and I would say, figure out what it is
that you're trying to accomplish here. Figure out
your main priorities attached to that and then
what is it going to cost for this church to
(23:17):
accomplish that mission? M and then talk to people
in real terms that way instead of just giving to
this nebulous black hole. It's like, no, your
funding is helping us do this really great thing
in this community to change lives this way or that
way. And you know, sometimes people are like,
well, I don't really care about that. Politely
help them find another place where they can get on
(23:38):
board with something that's happening. M
Otherwise, you know, that person will kill giving.
Uh, in an unbelievable way to say, well, I don't
know why we're always giving money to this or
that. And it's just like man, with you around,
this is never going to happen. You know, I mean
it's sad but I've seen it happen. Yeah, yeah,
(23:59):
yeah.
>> Loren (24:00):
So let's think about this because this is
certainly a challenge in many churches where older
generations are of uh, a huge part of the overall
budget of giving percentage wise. And certainly
there's some hard facts reality.
Socioeconomically, matter of fact, younger folks
(24:21):
just don't have the levels of income necessarily
to sustain and support. But what do you advise
when you're thinking about whether it's working
with nonprofits and churches to balance out, to
diversify, whatever the terminology is, the, the
givers.
>> Speaker D (24:38):
Yeah, I think with the younger set they would
rather give on their phone than they would in a
paper way. So maybe come up with some kind of a
fun campaign that lasts for a month that you can
say, hey, if you're under 25, we want you to be
involved in this. 20 bucks this month or whatever,
something like that. Mhm. Uh, something highly
focused, short and media, electronic driven. I
(25:02):
guess that's where I'm seeing most young folks
give. You're just trying to maybe build a habit
and connect giving to a real problem.
>> Loren (25:11):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (25:12):
And I think they like that kind of thing. So you
know, whatever your church can do to devise that
method of giving, I would highly encourage it.
>> Loren (25:23):
You talk about building a habit. I think there's
that stereotype that uh, young people, these
younger generations like aren't committed to
institutions or organizations like the older
generations. Do you think it's simple, uh, as like
that the habit hasn't been built for them?
>> Speaker D (25:40):
Uh, well, I think so, especially when it comes
into a spiritual context. But you know, they give
$10 a month to Spotify, they have that habit built
in. So it's not like they don't get it right. No
one has ever really challenged them and just said,
hey, we need you guys, you're a big part of this.
Here's how you can help. You know, I think just
(26:02):
getting engaged in their life to talk about it
instead of being afraid of it, like, oh no, if we
talk about money, the 20 year olds are always
going to run away. And it's like I don't think so.
I think they want that deeper challenge and
commitment and they really want to build something
with you. So give them a chance to do it.
>> Loren (26:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good thinking about like
again, we've kind of been talking in and around
like churches, nonprofits, back and forth. What do
you think are some practical things a church could
learn from a nonprofit? One example that I've
heard. Uh, I've heard in Southern Baptist spaces,
(26:40):
more and more they're bringing on a stewardship
director in a church, which is surprising, but I
guess not. Are you seeing that too? And then what
do you think other trends that churches could pick
up on?
>> Speaker D (26:52):
Yeah, I'm seeing that a little bit. I like that
idea because it puts somebody directly in charge
of the gifts that come in and the people that are
giving them.
>> Loren (27:02):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (27:02):
I've just been in so many churches where it's just
hush, hush, secretive. And it's like we can't ever
build out a program if we don't know who's giving
and who's not and how to approach them and how to
not approach them. Um, so I think that's a great
start. Hire somebody who will help focus on
building the, I would call it a culture of giving
or a culture of philanthropy. Um, let's get
(27:26):
somebody talking about it more often than just
once a year for the money talk. M. I, um, think,
you know, churches need to do a better job of
figuring out what it is that they're trying to do
also.
>> Loren (27:38):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (27:38):
If that makes sense. It's like, this is our, this
is our thing, this is our hill, this is our cause.
And um, they can articulate it clearly and they
can talk about, you know, what they need to solve
that problem and what it's going to cost. That's
the most practical thing I think you can do. Then
you can sort of figure out, okay, this is the kind
of budget we need to build to make that goal
(28:01):
happen. Um, and it kind of brings everyone
together. I mean if you can get everyone around a
shared vision, uh, it's amazing where that people
find money.
>> Loren (28:12):
Yeah, yeah, it is.
You know, this leads me to a more a, uh, broader
thought and I'm curious like Jason. As far as,
like, I know you've worked primarily in non
denominational evangelical spaces. Right. Like
that's your right.
>> Speaker D (28:28):
Correct.
>> Loren (28:28):
So a lot of my background is in mainline more
established churches, like denominational
churches. And I'm wondering like, thinking about
how denominational churches like, often had like
the, the institution, like the denominational
legacy to kind of set their tone. Do you think
that's something that non denominational churches
(28:49):
or evangelical churches have had sort of, sort of
been forced into that's worked well for them is
they've kind of had to Individually, like
establish their own kind of what we're about.
>> Speaker D (28:58):
Yeah, I definitely think it's an advantage if
you're able to set your own tone and your own
agenda. Um, yeah, the main, the mainline church
might have a little bit more difficulty, but um,
maybe they, I don't know how it works. Maybe you
need to lead up a little bit more and say, we'd
really like to initiate this sort of, uh, of a
ministry in our, in our area and here's how we're
(29:20):
going to go about it. Um, perhaps that could be a
good model for other churches in that mainline
denomination. Um, but I definitely think, you
know, the, the standalone or non denominational,
whatever you want to call it, has an advantage.
That way we can pivot more quickly, which is
sometimes really what you need in the, in the
funding world is to be able to just pivot on a
(29:43):
dime. It's like, okay, that isn't working. We need
to recalibrate and keep moving forward with
something that will work.
>> Loren (29:51):
Yeah. Because, uh, you know, I'm thinking like
most denominations will have some sort of like
nationally driven, like national offering,
whether, you know, for the denominational causes.
So there's some sort of like. And I guess it goes
back to this. Right. Like whatever your context is
(30:12):
that I imagine you'd agree with this. Like, you
have to figure out some way of like tying that
into your story. Right. So it makes sense to your
attendees and givers, what have you.
>> Speaker D (30:23):
Definitely. And you can do that, you can tie the
broader story to your local story. Um, as long as
you have a story.
>> Loren (30:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, that's, that's sort
of it, right?
>> Speaker D (30:37):
Like, uh, yeah, it is.
>> Loren (30:38):
You and I are both familiar with like storybrand.
>> Speaker D (30:40):
Right, right, right.
>> Loren (30:43):
I'll have to reference that past episode. But for,
for listeners unfamiliar, like storybrand is
basically this marketing concept, which marketing
gets a scary, uh, word for many church folks. But
like, what I appreciate about the story brand
approach is really like telling a story and
(31:03):
telling people how they can be a part of that
story, involved in that story. And I mean, I think
this is, I suppose again I'm getting into broader
kind of macro level stuff is like in American
Christianity, at least since like 1950 to 2000, to
some extent, like there's just been this
(31:23):
assumption that you could just kind of roll out a
church and people would show up and understand
like what that church was about and what they were
trying to do. And that doesn't work anymore.
>> Speaker D (31:37):
That's right. That's right. Well, uh, actually,
you know, they think they already know what that
church does when they start one. Yeah, there's a
lot of negativity around that. It's like, oh,
they're the people that fill in the negative
blank. So we have to work twice as hard to get the
story out in a way that's compelling, accurate,
(32:00):
and will involve people in real life change. I
still think, Loren, I still think people want
something deeper and more meaningful in their
life. And that's what we're trying to create here.
I'm not trying to trick people out of their money.
You know, this isn't some sort of a, uh, money
making scheme, you know, like at the back channel,
infomercial stuff. This is, you know, we're really
(32:22):
like, talking about, here's how we really want to
change the world. Let's try and do it. And it's
going to take resources to do that.
>> Loren (32:30):
Let me, let's ask just like a couple practical
questions or, uh, some thoughts. Like, I'm
thinking about, like, the church I attend did a
capital campaign. I m think about a year ago, if
I'm remembering a little more, over a year ago.
And of course, like, they, they had their quiet
phase and then they came out with their, their
public announcement and, you know, great job.
(32:52):
Like, they had like 60% of it funded already, if
not more, I can't remember. So they just did like
a great job. One of the things I really liked
about it was like, in each phase, they had phases.
Was each phase, like, there was something external
about. The funds that were being raised. So
obviously the majority of the funds were like,
building improvements and what have you. But for
(33:15):
each part of the phase, there's some kind of
external project. Uh, they have a parking lot
ministry, which is meant for people who are
unhoused and need somewhere to go. It's like part
of the phase was like, hey, we're going to
remodel, uh, some part of our building to make are
showers accessible for folks overnight.
>> Speaker D (33:35):
Yeah.
>> Loren (33:36):
How have you seen churches do a good job of like,
fundraising? So it's obviously internal. Like
they're trying to pay for the roof, but also to
tell the story, like, hey, this is having a
broader impact than just like, our roof.
>> Speaker D (33:52):
Yeah. So one of the best places I saw that was,
you know, there's a large church there in
Colorado, as a matter of fact, um, they were doing
campaigns to help build places in, uh, parts of
the world where there was a lot of hurt, a lot of
famine. And they're like, hey, we're going to
this. I don't know if I can name the place or not,
but we're going to this place and we're going to
(34:13):
build a hospital and we're going to build a
school.
>> Loren (34:15):
Wow.
>> Speaker D (34:16):
And we're going to do that so well that they're
going to ask us at the end of the day, why are you
doing this? And then the broader context is, well,
we're here because of the gospel. And so I think
if you can, like your church, uh, funding strategy
I think is good. Uh, we're going to set up showers
for, um, that segment of people who are coming.
(34:37):
Here's about how many of them will come. Here's
about how many opportunities we'll have to share
with them. If you talk about how it's making a
difference in those people's lives, that often
tends to be more successful.
>> Loren (34:48):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything churches should start
doing immediately or stop doing immediately.
>> Speaker D (34:57):
Yeah. Stop the money talk thing. Stop feeling
guilty that you're talking about money. Enough of
that. It's okay to talk about money, but stop also
attaching that to shame and guilt.
>> Loren (35:08):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (35:09):
Right. I think churches need to just get together
and like, uh, what is it that we want to do and
what are we asking people to sign on for? And if
it's not, if none of us are excited about that,
it's time to make a change. So what are we excited
about? What is that going to cost? And let's just
approach people in humility and, uh, also with the
(35:32):
level of excitement that this is really going to
make a difference. Let's talk.
>> Loren (35:37):
Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Well, let's take a break
here, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with Jason Hanselman. And
Jason, uh, the closing questions, you're welcome
to take them as seriously or not as you'd like to.
>> Speaker D (35:55):
Okay.
>> Loren (35:55):
But if you're Pope for a day. What do you want to
do? Or maybe some like. Do you have any kind of,
like, direct papa bulls about fundraising? You
know, take it as you want to.
>> Speaker D (36:07):
Wow. I don't. I don't. That wouldn't be any fun. I
don't want to connect that to fundraising.
>> Loren (36:11):
Okay. Okay. Well, be Pope for a day.
>> Speaker D (36:13):
Gone down. That. Yeah, I almost said. And I think
I've heard other guests talk about wearing the hat
or riding in the mobile. Those are great. They've
already been taken. I've always wanted to go to
Italy. Mhm. So I would make it, uh, Art Day. Let's
make it Art Week. My family gets to go and just
(36:33):
explore art Around Italy for a week. That's really
what I would want to do as Pope.
>> Loren (36:40):
Well, the nice thing that you're Pope is like, you
run the show. Like you get the whole museum, uh,
to yourself.
>> Speaker D (36:47):
I would like to touch some of the surfaces of the
paint as Pope. I think you can do that probably if
you go into a museum now, you know, once you get a
foot away from a painting, somebody is on top of
you to give back. So you really want to feel that
paint.
>> Loren (37:02):
You could probably touch that canvas.
>> Speaker D (37:05):
I would wear gloves, I mean, obviously. But I want
to get close to that art. That's really what I
want to do.
>> Loren (37:12):
M Good, Good. A, uh, theologian or historical
Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back
to life.
>> Speaker D (37:20):
Um, you know what? We talk a lot about Dietrich
Bonhoeffer around here. I would love to bring
Dietrich back.
>> Loren (37:26):
Mhm.
>> Speaker D (37:27):
Um, just his grit and his tenacity and his. Love
for people who hated him. M just fascinates me. So
I'd love to just have a sit down with Dietrich and
just talk about life and have him. Tell me what I
need to do with my life. Um, I think it would be
(37:50):
an interesting conversation, interesting guy to
talk with.
>> Loren (37:53):
Absolutely.
What do you think history will remember from our
current time and place?
>> Speaker D (38:00):
I think it depends on which way it goes. Right. I
think it could be the biggest opportunity ever
blown in the history of mankind. Um, because
there's a lot of opportunity and there's a lot of
hurt and there's a lot of spaces that church needs
to fill. And so, you know, I know a lot of people
talk about, oh, uh, the world's blowing up, going
crazy, it's the worst time we've ever seen. I
(38:22):
don't know. There's a lot of. I view it as.
There's a lot of opportunity to make a lot of
change, and I hope that's what we do.
>> Loren (38:28):
Yeah, yeah. I'm reminded of. We had Mike Cosper on
some time ago, and he said something like, you
know, it really depends, like, how, how, how
things happen Will, like, depend on how, like, we
view, like, Elon Musk, for instance, like, uh, you
know.
>> Speaker D (38:45):
Yeah.
>> Loren (38:46):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (38:46):
Well, will our generation see revival like other
generations or not? I mean, I don't know. We'll
see.
>> Loren (38:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Where do you hope for the future of
Christianity? I'm.
>> Speaker D (39:00):
I'm hoping that we. This sound weird and maybe
not, but let's return to where we started. We just
seem. It just seems like we have so many
entanglements and so many things that really
aren't about the main thing.
>> Loren (39:14):
Yeah.
>> Speaker D (39:14):
Let's get back to early church days and focusing
on community, focusing on life change, living, uh,
in the power of the Holy Spirit. You know, all of
those things were pretty great.
>> Loren (39:30):
I suppose this gets into a fundraising question to
some extent. Like, I'm thinking of a recent guest,
Michelle Van Loon, who wrote about downsizing
evangelicalism. And part of her, her thing was
saying, like, we don't really need all these
institutions. Yeah, like this is sort of a
fundraising question too. Like. Is there, does
(39:53):
there need to be some simplicity around
organizations and structures?
>> Speaker D (39:58):
Yes, uh, I do. Um, I think just, if we could just
simplify to. Hey, let's think really big. Mm mhm.
Let's build really simple and let's take some
action. I stole those from another group, but I
really think that's the core essence of it.
Instead of, oh, uh, we have to have a major gifts
(40:18):
program, we have to have an annual fund, we have
to have a planned giving, we have to, you know, so
many arms and it's just like, let's just trim the
fat and just get a really great story about a
really great organization, really changing lives
and just go out and talk to people about that and
invite them, give them an opportunity to join that
(40:39):
story.
>> Loren (40:40):
Yeah. So what was that? Think big.
>> Speaker D (40:44):
Um, simplify. And act now. Yeah.
>> Loren (40:49):
Yeah. Well, uh, share with folks how they can get
a hold of you, connect with you, all that stuff.
>> Speaker D (40:55):
Yeah, that's a great question. So, uh, my official
email is Jason FY V as in victormail.com. i just
wrote a fundraising fable that I would love for
people to get a hold of. Um, I'm happy to give
that away free, digitally. Just reach out to me by
email. Um, and that's the best way to get a hold
(41:17):
of me, Loren, is through that email. If people
want to continue discussions about how they can
raise money better or even just say, hey, I have
an issue that I'm tangled up in. Let's talk. Um,
I've had people in my life who've just come
alongside me and done that, giving me a half hour
of their time to say, here's how you need to think
about that differently or here's how you need to
(41:37):
act differently.
>> Loren (41:39):
Yeah. And I've read the book, you know, the
booklet, I guess, if you will. Like, it's uh,
really simple, easy. Like I read it, I think on a
plane ride and like the second half of the plane
ride, like I printed out the book, the second half
of the plane ride, I like scratched out Some ideas
based on the concepts in the book. So really
(42:00):
recommend it, I think, too, like what you've been
saying all along here, simplicity is the way to
go. Like sharing. Sharing stories, sharing
passion, connecting with their vision makes so
much more sense than overloading them with, um,
money.
>> Speaker D (42:16):
Right, right, right. Nobody likes that. Nobody
likes that. Don't do that. I can tell the book
changed your life, Loren. There's a glow about
you.
>> Loren (42:24):
Yeah, I was laughing, like, I mean, uh, we should
wrap up here. But I'm just thinking of my own
experience. I was leading a small church. Money
was a challenge. M. We were 13k in the hole, which
was off a budget of less than 100k. So it was a
big chunk of money, relatively speaking, for the
annual budget. And I got up there and said, hey,
(42:48):
there's some challenges here. But then I
highlighted things that were going right, progress
that was being made, uh, and people were like, oh,
yeah, I'm willing to give more. And then, like,
two years later, I went away on sabbatical. They
had a money crunch and they were like, the ship is
sinking. Give money.
>> Speaker D (43:08):
Oh, no.
>> Loren (43:09):
And the second one didn't work as well. So, yeah,
I mean, it really does make a difference. So, uh,
check out Jason's work. We'll make sure to have
links to him in the show notes. Jason, uh, we
always leave folks with a word of peace, so may
God's peace be with you.
>> Speaker D (43:26):
Thank. Thanks again, Loren. Appreciate it.
>> Loren Richmond (43:35):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
future episodes. Visit our
website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
(43:57):
us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a
review. It really helps us get this out to more
people. Thanks and go in peace.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!