July 15, 2025 • 51 mins
What if the most faithful act of evangelism isn’t preaching—but sitting with someone in their grief? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with theologian and returning guest Dr. Andrew Root to explore what it means to practice evangelism in an age defined by despair. Drawing from his latest book, Evangelism in the Age of Despair: Hope Beyond the Failed Promise of Happiness, Andy challenges the notion that evangelism is about strategy, persuasion, or growth—and instead reframes it as a practice of consolation. Together, Loren and Andy wrestle with the loneliness, sorrow, and disconnection of modern life. From Facebook Marketplace encounters to late-night hospital chaplaincy calls, this conversation dives deep into the spiritual significance of simply showing up and staying present with people in their suffering.
They discuss:
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Why sorrow is "contagious"—and why that matters
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The mystical, communal nature of consolation
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How pastors and chaplains might be better theologians than academics
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What happens when a society loses its rituals for goodbye
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Why people turn to the occult when meaning is missing
Whether you’re a ministry leader, chaplain, or spiritually curious, this episode will help you rethink what it means to offer hope in a world hungry for presence, not platitudes.
Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations. His recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline, When Church Stops Working, and The Church After Innovation. Andy has worked in congregations, parachurch ministries, and social service programs. He lives in St. Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen and Maisy, and their dog. When not reading, writing, or teaching, Andy spends far too much time watching TV and movies.
Mentioned Resources:
📖 Book: https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/evangelism-in-an-age-of-despair/423470
🌐 Website: https://www.andrewroot.org
🎧 Previous Episode: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/andy-root/
🎧 Previous Episode: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e
Presenting Sponsor:
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
one of our Future Christian Favorites, Dr.
Andrew Root. Andrew is the Carrie
Olson Balson professor of Youth and Family Ministry
at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
He writes and researches in areas of theology,
(01:05):
ministry, culture, and younger generations.
His recent books are Churches and the
Crisis of Decline, When Church
Stops Working, and the Church After
Innovation. Andy has worked in
congregations, parachurch ministries, and
social service programs. He lives in St.
(01:25):
Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen
and Maisie, and their dog. When not
reading, writing or teaching, Andy spends
far too much time watching TV and movies.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
(01:46):
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with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We value your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
of the church.
>> Loren (02:16):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Lorne
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be joined by
Dr. Andrew Root. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> Andy Root (02:25):
Hey, thanks for having me back. I'm, uh, really glad to be here.
>> Loren (02:28):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. So
Andrew has been on the podcast before,
so if you want to look, listen back and hear about his
backstory, if you don't know who he is, I'll link
past episodes.
But Andy, one, uh, thing I always like to ask you
is, like, is what are you watching
and what relevance? You
(02:49):
know, I feel like you're so good at, like, finding,
you know, the cultural vibe within
entertainment. So I'm just kind of curious, like, what are you watching and
what are you noticing?
>> Andy Root (03:00):
I think I'm going to blow your illusion of me because,
like, what I'm in the middle of right now
is the Empress on,
um, Netflix. That's actually
a, uh, German, uh, biopic
series about, uh, Franz
Joseph the Habsburg,
(03:20):
uh, uh, Kaiser. So
don't I Seem super cool, like, very zeitgeist.
This is when you know you're becoming old, when you're like, I would like to watch
period pieces about the 19th century. Um,
so that's one I guess probably more
interesting, uh, is I'm forgetting the title of it now, but
the Steve Carell movie with the tech
(03:41):
Bros. Something, uh, mount, uh, with
Jason Schwarzman too. I watched that just a few
days ago and that is very zeitgeisty. I mean it is, you
know, these ultra rich tech guys,
uh, you know, like
in some, well, in some sense killing each other, but also
like, I don't know, you just see their moral vision of the world
(04:02):
and it's, it's very interesting and it, it fits my
bias. So I really liked it.
>> Loren (04:07):
Did you ever read Atlas Shrugged?
>> Andy Root (04:10):
No, I have never read it.
>> Loren (04:12):
So several years ago I just like made it my mission
to read that thing. Yeah, Uh, I mean it was a
slog and I skipped over like there's a section
in the book where it's. I forget the character.
Just like it has a hundred page. Literally
there's a hundred page speech.
>> Andy Root (04:28):
Oh, really?
>> Loren (04:29):
And I remember reading a biography on Ayn Rand
and it looks like she spent like a whole year
if. Or some unworth
ungodly amount of time on that speech. And I just kind of felt
bad and you know, completely
skipped over it. But also like, I mean that was the theme of
the book is all the rich people were building this
mega city, which I don't know if you've seen
(04:52):
the news about, uh, the current
administration wanting to sell off public lands. That could be happening
again.
>> Andy Root (04:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:00):
So that's, that's great.
>> Andy Root (05:02):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:03):
I'm watching. My wife and I have been watching reruns of
Home improvement speaking of classic 90s
television. So I think it is kind of interesting for us
just kind of at least for me maybe to kind of see like
the cultural vibes of the 90s.
>> Andy Root (05:18):
Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?
>> Loren (05:20):
Right.
>> Andy Root (05:21):
And I can't tell if it's interesting just because I'm
old. And so I have like some
classic nostalgia for that. But I think it's more,
I think, I mean, I try to do this in this book. We're going to talk about like, I
think there's something about the way things were in
the 90s and uh, the way things are
now that there's a kind of contrast there. I mean
(05:41):
they're interconnected, but there's a major, I think,
moral contrast of uh, kind of
where we sit and how we even recognize
ourselves and see ourselves.
>> Loren (05:51):
Yeah. Speaking of 90s television, I just saw something
on Facebook that I guess Family Matters is coming back.
>> Andy Root (05:57):
Oh, really?
>> Loren (05:58):
So, uh, I'm kind of curious.
I mean, I spent so many years. I feel like
watching Urkel and company.
>> Andy Root (06:07):
Yeah, sure.
>> Loren (06:08):
It's a good 90s memory.
Well, speaking of your book, let's just jump right into it
because there's a lot I want to talk about and I want to hear from.
So the title of the book is what? Evangelism in the Age
of Despair. What's the subtitle?
>> Andy Root (06:22):
Oh, what is the subtitle? I think I do have it around
here. What it is, it's,
uh, Hope beyond
the Failed Promise of
Happiness.
>> Loren (06:32):
There you go.
>> Andy Root (06:33):
See how good I am at promoting my own book.
>> Loren (06:37):
So I think the first thing I want to ask is just about the title.
I think the title really struck me like that despair
word. It really feels like an apt
word for a moment. I mean, I think. I don't know if it's just
from reading your book or even
broader, like, the sense, I feel like in society of
nihilism and defeatism. Like,
(06:58):
it feels just like across the spectrum, like, even
certainly amongst the left, but I think there's. There's somewhat
of it to the right too, amongst the political right.
And I'm curious, kind of what. What sparked
that concept or that framing for you?
>> Andy Root (07:14):
Yeah, I mean, so this is. This is the second book that
I've written. I wrote a book a long time ago called the Promise of
Despair. So now I have a book with two
books with the word despair in the title. So you can see,
maybe. You can see maybe my psychological, uh,
dispos position, but they actually are quite different. I mean,
the despair here came from the publisher. So Jeremy
(07:35):
Wells at Baker, I think, came up with this, and I was very
happy to go with it. But really, I mean, there's a sense where you
could see despair in more of a kind of Kierkegaardian vein, a kind
of existentialist perspective, which you can hear in the
Promise of Despair. There's this sense of
despair opening up, but here it's more kind of
direct, I think. And, um, when we use the word
despair in the title, it's simply maybe
(07:58):
shorthand or maybe a kind of
punk rock version of just this
malaise of unhappiness that's fallen on people.
And that's really what I wanted to point to here, is that I think we're
in a moment and in A time where
people just feel really fundamentally
unhappy. And, uh, that these
have been really hard three decades of the 21st
(08:20):
century. And we see the
symptoms of that in multiple ways, from mental health
crisis to huge senses of economic
inequality, to what feels like
a daily kind of political cris. These
things are just everywhere. And people kind of are just sitting,
looking at their screens, scrolling through social media,
outraged and depressed and anxious. I mean,
(08:43):
my gosh, we have 11 and 12 year olds who are
overwhelmed with levels of anxiety.
Um, so here despair really
just kind of means this malaise of.
Yeah, unhappiness, I guess is the best way to say
it. And as the subtitle says, part of the reason I think
we're just so damn unhappy is because we're so
hell bent on being happy. You know, we're
(09:05):
so sad because we just want to be happy so badly.
And, uh, it just might be that happiness isn't
a good that actually can provide what we
yearn for. And it, it, the more you chase
it, the more it disappears from your hands
and the more unhappy it makes you.
>> Loren (09:22):
I was curious if you came across this when you're
writing your book. I remember. Gosh. What's the
podcast now?
>> Andy Root (09:30):
Shoot.
>> Loren (09:30):
It's an NPR podcast. I'm blanking on the title.
Um, oh, my
goodness. This is for me not getting
sleep last night. Um,
Chankar Vedantim. What's that podcast?
>> Andy Root (09:45):
You're asking the wrong guy. I only listen to hockey
podcasts.
>> Loren (09:51):
Folks who know it will listen to it, will recognize
it. Um, npr, Shankar
Vedantam. Um, I'm forgetting the name of the podcast, but anyway,
some months ago, he did an episode back where he talked about
chasing happiness. It's like this thing. If we
keep trying to push down. I
remember them using the image of, uh, a seesaw. If we keep trying
(10:12):
to push down on that happiness button, that side,
it inevitably kind of boosts up
the sadness or the despair button.
Yeah, so.
Well, I do want to ask you because I think one thing
that really struck me when I first started reading the book, and I don't
(10:33):
know if this was intentional or not, but I'm curious. Like,
I immediately came to mind of chaplaincy and pastoral care
in your work early on. I'm curious, like,
was there inspiration there? How did that. Was it just.
Is that my reading into it?
>> Andy Root (10:48):
No, I don't think it's your reading into it. Um, there wasn't
like a direct kind of connection to,
to pastoral care, chaplaincy, but I think the
ultimate kind of theological construction
and even more so than theological construction, the kind of
ministerial, kind of drive of
practice is similar to that. I mean,
(11:08):
this book, the title of it is about
evangelism. That's the first word in its title. But in some ways
it's mislabeled because it's not evangelism
book where I'm giving you your six models of
evangelism. Pick one. Here's the pluses and the
minuses of each one. Um, you know,
it's more of a book really, where I think the constructive edge of
(11:29):
it is a theology of consolation.
Um, and so, you know, there is a connection that
I think you're rightly reading to chaplaincy
and to work with people in deep grief. And
even the story that I tell throughout this book about this
congregation and this way that these kind of lay people reach out
and essentially, I'm really, essentially making a case for how
(11:49):
we live evangelism more than think of evangelism as some kind of
strategy, you know, that we. That we leverage on
people and that that becomes all the more necessary in this
time where people are deeply sad.
Um, that people don't need a kind of
instrumentalized strategy to convert them towards an
idea. They need somebody who will accompany them and
(12:11):
walk with them through really moments of grief
and sadness and loss. And this has been a culture
that's really been built,
uh, in a hyper way, taken its form in the last
three decades where you really are alone. Competition
is everywhere. And there are certain illusions that you're
connected. Social media sites that say you have friends
(12:31):
and, uh, that you have connections. But these are all,
for the most part, like utter
illusions. And so when you do have a situation
happen, like you go through a miscarriage
or your father dies or something
like that, I mean, you will get a lot of responses
on social media. You post that, which in
(12:51):
some ways feels weird in itself, that this incredibly sacred
moment of grief you have, that you're going to, you know,
uh, disclose it on the. On the Internet.
But we do that. I mean, that's the way we are. Um, and
you will get a lot of responses, like you will get a lot of
sad face emojis on Facebook.
But what we don't really have in this society anymore are the
(13:12):
kind of practices where people walk with you,
where people sit with you. Um, you know,
that we don't even really have funerals anymore. We have
celebrations of life, you know, um, and
so there is definitely a kind of overtone
of thinking about these people who
walk in console with their presence,
which I think chaplains and uh,
(13:35):
pastoral care folks do every day of the week. There is a
way that I'm trying to get into that kind of
theological and practical dynamic.
>> Loren (13:44):
Yeah. I found the podcast
Hidden Brain. Hidden Brain is the podcast recommended.
So I think something that struck me, again,
reading the book, and I'll read a quote here from. From your book.
You write, consolation can never be theoretical. It must
be fundamentally practiced, is always
pastoral. Consolation is one of the
(14:04):
tradition's deepest forms of doing theology,
and it is never disconnected from the
practice of ministry. So, uh, I took
from that, this. This idea that real theology happens
on the ground. And I've often felt,
and I don't know, again, I think something from your book
defined it.
So I'm curious, your perspective. Do you think,
(14:25):
like, I think you suggest this, right.
That pastors and chaplains can be better theologians than
academics? I'm curious if your wife's role
as a pastor, seeing her do
this ministry work, does that influence your view?
>> Andy Root (14:40):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know if I've said this
on your podcast earlier, but I think one of the ways you could,
uh, in many ways, you could kind of reduce all
my work, which. All these books, one after the
other. I promise people there'll be three volumes and there's six volumes.
And, you know, essentially, this could be the seventh
volume. Yeah, we didn't label it that way.
(15:00):
Um, but in many ways you could, I think, reduce all my work down to
really, um, kind of, you know, giving.
I don't want to say justification, but essentially in a vision to what
my wife does as a. Um. My wife Kara does as a
pastor to a small congregation in South Minneapolis. So
there. There's no doubt. I mean, I don't ever want to
confuse or have anyone confuse me as a. As a
(15:21):
practicing pastor. I'm not in that. I'm an academic,
but I have a pretty direct seat to watch
this. And it's not at a megachurch. It's at a
little fragile church of, you know, of
less than 100 people. And it is just, you know,
finding a way to continue year after year.
But there are these incredible moments and incredible
(15:41):
needs of giving consolation and, you
know, walking into that fire. And that's what
a pastor does. A pastor walks into,
you know, instead of running away from the grief, they walk
into the grief. And they walk into the grief. Not to fix
it, um, not even, you know, not even as maybe
like a therapist would do, but simply to be present
(16:02):
within it, um, and to testify to God's
presence, um, in the midst of that presence. And I
find that to be in a profoundly sacred
reality. So the stories that I see in the
places where I see, you know, Cara does this beautiful. It really
lives out of theology, is in these kinds
of moments, you know, where you, you know,
(16:22):
prepare a, uh, woman in her 40s to
die, you know, as. As the doctor says, there's
no other treatment here. And then help her, her
husband and her daughter live
after this incredible rupture and loss and
live in the grief. Like, uh, having a
congregation, forming a congregation who can do that kind of
consoling work, and then, you know, doing it yourself as
(16:44):
a pastor again, you know, to say. To say it again,
it just feels like such a sacred act and
one that's just so deeply needed in this cultural,
um, that we've just kind of lost. And I think
we just have a bunch of lonely, really sad people
who are, um, in some ways,
uh, anesthetizing themselves with just more and more
(17:05):
social media that makes them more and more outraged.
Um, and that the outrage is some ways, uh, a
distraction from the pain that they live
with of the sorrow they have. And, uh, maybe
the church's great testimony and witness in this moment, the
great ministry it could do, is simply to walk with people and
be formed by practices of consolation.
>> Loren (17:26):
Yeah. I think that's so important.
It leads me to another thought I had
reading the book. And this is the idea that
I think you tease at this, and I think this is, um, certainly something
I recognize as well, that there's this feeling in society right
now that sorrow is contagious. It's like, we don't want to get
too close to it. It's like a sickness or disease.
(17:47):
We know someone's got a cold, so we want to necessarily get up in
their business. And we kind of treat sorrow like the same. Like, we'll
come and give you a hug, you know, pat your
back within. Like, we don't want to. We don't.
We don't want to. We don't want to catch it. But I think, like, there's.
There's some truth that, like, it kind of is contagious. And what I
mean by that is like. Like
(18:07):
when we. When we go and truly enter into the sorrow
of another, like, we feel it. Like we feel their sorrow.
But also, I think, like, it kind of, like,
builds up our immunity.
>> Andy Root (18:18):
Again, this is.
>> Loren (18:19):
I'm playing kind of with this metaphor.
>> Andy Root (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (18:22):
And strengthens us to be able to handle
sorrow in our own lives and the lives of others.
>> Andy Root (18:28):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:29):
Is that fair?
>> Andy Root (18:30):
Yeah, no, I think that is true. I mean, I
do think that there's a kind of mystical reality
to sharing this. I mean, in many ways, like the tradition,
I do want to kind of point out to the reader here,
and again, maybe this is completely self indulgent, but,
um, that there's a long tail to this in the history
of Christianity. It really goes back to the patristics
(18:52):
era. And there is a kind of deep sense that
there's a, uh, mystical reality that when
you. When suffering is
shared, there's a certain way that it's.
That, I don't know, call it. Its
demonic, isolating force
is broken. And yes, it is
(19:12):
legitimately held by another. But I
kind of like your metaphor of that. We
actually have a stronger immune system or something to do
to deal with it in some say. I think what
it ultimately is, and I try to use Blaise Pascal in
the book to show this, is that Pascal actually thinks
you can only really be in touch as a human
(19:33):
being with your spiritual depth, with the
sense of being, of course, material and
embodied, but that also having a kind of sense of soul to
it by surrendering in some ways
to your sorrow. Um, because the only other option is to
continue to distract yourself from it or to try to think
yourself out of it. And neither of those are
(19:53):
very good. And his great wager is that if
you fall into your sorrow, if you'll admit
that you're filled with sorrow or that there's something
within you that can't kind of complete yourself, that you need something
from outside of you, that he thinks that you'll find a great
presence there. And, you know, Blaise Pascal
is one of the great converts of the
(20:14):
Christian church who, uh, uh,
found a great presence there that he found fire
in. Um, changed him.
>> Loren (20:23):
Yeah, I want to come back to that,
the illustration you made about the demonic. But the other side of
that interesting thing about, like, the
contagion of sorrow that struck me
is I noticed this, like, a few months ago, I
started working again as a chaplain. And I felt like once, like, I
started, like, uh, essentially willingly
started walking into the sorrow of another person.
(20:45):
Like, I feel like it's found me more.
Um, and I'm curious, like, if you thought about that.
>> Andy Root (20:50):
Like.
>> Loren (20:51):
Like when you step into another sorrow, like, you become
more. I don't know if it's like, more attuned or people
have the sense that they. They know you're someone who will
bear their challenges with them.
What do you think?
>> Andy Root (21:05):
Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting Thought like there uh, like in some
sense there's a kind of we'll get real nerdy here but
right. Almost like a kind of
uh, ontological mark on you in some
way that you can go
to the place of nothingness. See now we're, now we're really
sounding um, nuts here. But I do think
(21:25):
there's something to that. I mean
I just think of people who've had to live
through these incredible experiences of grief. Like they have
seen something, they've had a
deep experience that um, forever
marks their being, their way of being in the world.
And I think that those such ah, that journey with people
this way. I think the pastoral
(21:48):
practice is one where you do become marked
by the sorrows of others and
no one can really bear that unless being marked by those
sorrows is also for them
to be sacramental in some way, for them to bring you into
the very marks of Jesus Christ
and to have this kind of vision.
(22:11):
So maybe this is also a vision perspective too. From your
side you're attentive more but there is this sense of
like Jesus Christ is found in sorrow.
And I think it's kind of both ways that we become more
attentive to follow and look for Jesus Christ in
sorrow. Um, but also I do think that
there's something that you're right about. There's a kind of mark that
(22:31):
you've seen, something that you've been to a depth
that leaves you forever
ever changed. And I think particularly
people who find themselves up against that thinness
of being, um, can, can
recognize that, can, can sense that in some way.
Um. And yeah, I don't know, I'm willing to say that that has
(22:51):
something to do with the fact that we are these strange
embodied creatures who
nevertheless are, are filled with
spirit, long for spirit, um, and yet can never
get outside our bodies in yearning for that.
>> Loren (23:06):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because like
I work very part time as
a chaplain so I tend to work these on call
overnight shifts and it's, it's not fun at all getting
called you know, at 2:00am M. In the morning
or right in the middle of dinner time which is
similar for some reason when people seem to need a
(23:27):
chaplain always, never conveniently at like you know,
6:37 at night. But
I like, it's interesting like for me like
I found like. I don't know how else to describe it as like there's an addictive
nature to it because like I know like when I'm
in, in like when I'm in it with
Somebody like, it feels like I can,
(23:47):
it's tangible, like, I don't know, like I can sense
God's presence. And to me, like, there's this,
uh, I don't know, whatever better used word to use,
like, except addictive. Because like, I sense like I'm
gonna, I'm gonna experience God's presence
there. And it's so powerful,
um, that again, it, it's like it overwhelms
(24:08):
the fact that, that I'm waking up at 2am or
whatever that next day.
And I'm also reminded of
going back to the point about
finding suffering or being more aware. Again, I
don't know how to say it exactly, but I bought
something from somebody on Facebook Marketplace and just happened
(24:29):
to set a word, just
set a comment about the item I was buying.
And the woman paused and was like, my husband's dying of brain cancer.
>> Andy Root (24:38):
Wow.
>> Loren (24:40):
And I just kind of like stopped and paused
and stepped in and listened. And I think
that's literally the metaphor
of your book. It's like just stepping in.
Um, yeah.
And that's why again, I found the book so powerful and
so precise of what I feel like the moment is right now.
>> Andy Root (25:02):
Yeah, yeah. And who knows, I mean, now we're projecting
onto this, this woman, but you know,
from a larger kind of ideal types
perspective, I think, you know, we could say she represents
a larger society who has no one to carry
that kind of confession.
>> Loren (25:18):
Right.
>> Andy Root (25:18):
So here it comes, you know, to someone that is
embodied, um, at her door,
you know, just uh, the smallest little
opening is the sense that they
need someone to carry this. And you know, that we just,
we just don't have anymore. We just don't
have those kind of interactions. And even
(25:38):
when we have, you know, this person having other interactions with
neighbors or whatever, life is so accelerated
so fast and people are quite
frightened that,
um, they can't slow down enough. I mean, here's
the reality of, you know, uh, as you well know
in chaplaincy, work and others is that like you just
kind of said it never happens nine to five. You
(26:01):
know, it always happens outside of it. I mean,
it always is an interruption. And I think kind
of in a weird cultural way, we are
absolutely offended at being interrupted from our own
pursuits of making our own happiness.
So, you know, there's a kind of sense like ain't no one got time
for someone to tell them that their husband is dying of brain
(26:21):
cancer. And yet what else is
human life, you know, and particularly what else is the
Christian story other than to
have something to say to that, and not even just to
say to it as a kind of rationalist knowledge, but,
uh, a say to it with a presence, with a
participation, even if it is only for those
(26:42):
two minutes to have a human response
that says, this is a great
journey and this is an
incredibly significant goodbye that you're going
to now have to live through.
Uh, and that there is something
sacred, um, even in its horribleness about.
About having to say goodbye. And there's no human life
(27:04):
that's not about saying goodbye. I mean, I try to draw this out in the book,
uh, of the French
mystic, um, and thinker, uh, uh,
Jerseau, uh, who says,
like, the Christian life is a life of pilgrimage, and the
pilgrim always does this ad diem to God.
But what I think, fascinating that the link I tried to make
(27:25):
is in France at this time to say adiem was an
idiom for goodbye. So the pilgrim also has to
say goodbye. They walk towards God,
but they leave something. And if you're walking in the medieval
period, you leave to walk 60
miles or something. Who knows if you're ever going to return and how
long that's going to take. So it is a walk in. To kind of
(27:46):
walk into death. And, uh,
his perspective is that this is what the Christian life
is. It's saying goodbye, it's
having to say goodbye. But you do that with,
um, within God's grace, within God's
mercy, within God's act. And I think that we're in a
culture that people are in denial that they have
(28:07):
to say goodbye. And when it happens, they haven't thought
about it. They have no rituals, they have no practices.
And worst of all, they have no persons
in communities to walk with them in this.
And so, you know, my real push here is to not think of
evangelism as an instrumental pursuit
or strategy, but to think of it as an awareness
(28:30):
that we walk
into sorrow with people. And even if it's just
while we're picking up our. I don't know. Did you say what you bought
on Facebook? Marketplace? Even as you
pick that up, I don't know what it was. Um, and
you get this confession that you at least hold it for a
few minutes. I mean, that's an incredible
testimony to, uh, God's
(28:52):
mercy and God's act.
>> Loren (28:54):
Yeah, because it was just like I was buying. I
officiate lacrosse, high school lacrosse. And I was buying.
This lady was selling some officiating shirts.
Uh, and I'm just like, hey, do you have an official in your life?
>> Andy Root (29:06):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:07):
And I just. I don't know, I'm gonna assume,
I'm gonna hope or. Or wish, I don't know,
that it was the prompting of the spirit. Right. That said,
say that line.
>> Andy Root (29:17):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:19):
And then she kind of paused and started to
choke up, you know, and she said, my husband
has brain cancer and he's dying.
>> Andy Root (29:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:27):
You know, and you kind of just like, let it
hold there for a moment, and then I stepped in,
you know, and it was, you know, maybe a minute, two minutes,
wasn't long, but, uh, I kind of just walked away, like,
said a few more things. And
again, having just read your book,
I said, you know, may God's peace be with
(29:50):
you.
>> Andy Root (29:50):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:52):
You know, and it kind of left her at that.
>> Andy Root (29:55):
Um, there's something really beautiful in that
because, you know, your prompt to her,
is there an official in your life? You know?
>> Loren (30:05):
Right.
>> Andy Root (30:05):
Um, it's really an invitation for her to
narrate, to tell a story. You
know, like, you didn't say, like, how much were these
originally? What was the cost of these originally?
Or, uh, is there any coffee stains on these? Or, you
know, like, you. It there. It wasn't a kind of
quid pro quo kind of framed by an
economic reality. You asked her to
(30:27):
testify to a person and, you know, is there an official
in your life? I mean, there's a. That's a deep story. And of course,
this husband she has, I would imagine, like a big
piece of his life was officiating, and now she's
giving away part of his.
His things. You know, this is very, you know,
Martin, uh, Heidegger kind of sense is that we have
our being in and around these things. We have our Daz design
(30:50):
in them. And so for her to give these up
either, because he can't use
them anymore, is
a big step of goodbye. And I mean,
what a sacred act for you to take these
things that clearly at a level
represent her husband to her and
essentially say, I'll treasure them.
(31:12):
Um, that they mean something to me
too. Um, you know, it had been very different if you looked
at them and thinks, oh, man, I'm going to flip these babies on ebay and I'm going to make,
you know, make 25 bucks per
shirt, you know, um,
to hear her story and then to
bless her is exactly, I think, in
(31:32):
very microcosm what I hope the church can be for the
world, you know, bearing the world's
stories and giving a word of blessing as
people have to say goodbye. Um,
you know, in. In an openness to journey with people,
even if it is just for that two minutes
on a porch. But, you know, um, I also try to give
stories in the book of people who journey much longer than
(31:55):
with the church. And, um. But we won't
journey for two minutes and say, do you have a. Do you have.
Do you have an official referee in your life?
And then hear that story. Um, because, you know,
another move anyone could make and we're would feel tempted to
make. I do it, unfortunately, all the time on airplanes is
when the conversation starts. You put up all the things like,
(32:16):
not want. This is too much for me, you
know?
>> Loren (32:19):
Right, right.
>> Andy Root (32:20):
And you. And there is a certain, wow, there's just
a. There is a move of
discipleship that's just willing
to let. Let this occur. Um,
and it could get really weird. I mean, she could say, yeah, my
husband is, uh, not with me anymore because he
was a ufo. Took him.
(32:40):
I'm sure it was a ufo. And that, you know, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, what do I
do with this? Like, there's a certain way we want to avoid
all of that, so we don't even allow
for the uncontrollable moment
of this beautiful articulation.
Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think she sees something in you, but I think
there's also an attentiveness and a kind of spiritual
(33:01):
practice you have that. That allows this
beautiful moment to occur.
>> Loren (33:05):
I mean, it's kind of hilarious being on the
other side of how so many people just can't handle.
Handle grief. Like, I'm thinking of, uh,
something a month or two ago where I was called into
the hospital for a really tragic, really tragic
young man died unexpectedly. And, like,
there's a nurse, like, the family's literally
(33:28):
weeping over this young man's body, and the nurse is, like, walking
around restocking m the room.
>> Andy Root (33:32):
Them.
Yeah, yeah, there could be. I. I think like a
very, uh. I don't know.
>> Loren (33:40):
That's kind of how we treat it. Like, people don't know what to do.
Uh, Like, I was just in o' Hare in a
layover yesterday, and I just happened over here, like, right next
to me, this guy. I think it was a pilot, like, saying
on the phone, telling someone else that. That
I think the other pilot had trauma dumped on him, that his wife was having an
affair.
>> Andy Root (34:01):
This isn't funny. I don't know why I'm laughing, but that just seems.
>> Loren (34:04):
Yeah, well, it points to a point
you made in the book about people having nobody, and they have to, like, pay
somebody to share when they're Pain that
you talk about in the book. I mean, you don't call it, but it
is better help.
>> Andy Root (34:19):
Yep. I will say I said earlier I only
listen to hockey podcasts, but I also do
listen to the rest is history. Um, and they are always
advertising. So that was the
inspiration for the pseudo.
Uh, I hid the
identity of BetterHelp with, uh,
(34:39):
a character, but the innocent. Yeah,
but I mean, I mean, you do think about better help. And this isn't like
the. To be negative towards therapy
or the psychoanalytic or,
you know, biological, uh, uh,
psychiatric practice or anything like that. But it is really
fascinating that, that now in
those commercials particularly, it's like, allow
(35:02):
you to quickly get what you
need. Like, there's a certain sense, like the app
allows for a frictionless, if you
will, like, therapeutic experience in
the way that they sell it on a lot of these podcasts, which I tried to play up,
uh, in the book. Is that it really is that, uh, way to help you
work on yourself? Have you ever been stuck? I mean, this isn't a kind
of sense like there's a
(35:24):
sickness that you have to deal with. It's kind of like
you just need someone to talk to to help you hack your way out
of these. These issues. And again, to
me, that, that just reflects how lonely we are, you
know, like that people's friends don't
have time to listen to them talk about that
or, you know, like. Yeah,
(35:46):
or people don't want to burden their. Their friends or their family with
that. Um, or that people are just utterly isolated
that way. So why not, you know, use
an app or a chatbot to
get, um, some advice on how to deal with, you know,
your tensions with the girlfriend you've had
for two months or something, or to deal with the
(36:07):
fact that you have a hard time with commitment and that you can feel
yourself already pulling away from this girlfriend. Like, you know,
um, and, you know, that has something to do with your
relationship with your mother. But, you know, you would dislike some
quick life hacks to get. Get to get through that.
And, uh, you know, people, even the kind of
long road of
psychotherapy, uh, like Freud just kind of felt like he couldn't
(36:30):
get better. But you could, you could talk this
out for a long time and kind, uh, of
stabilize yourself, but that you'll always have to deal with the kind
of existential tensions. We just want it to be fixed
in some way, and if big tech can
fix it for us, let's go that route.
>> Loren (36:47):
Uh, well, let's take a quick break here. And let's come back with
some closing questions.
I do want to ask about the
demonic, as you call it in your book. And
the idea was intriguing
because I think you talk about, uh. There's
two things I want to explore here. Quickly here as we wrap
(37:10):
up the entering. Sorrow alone can be
demonic. And I was thinking about this similarly.
I don't know if you even thought to this as, like, suffering alone
can be demonic too. I don't know if you'd make that connection,
but that's what came to me. And then I was also thinking about,
like, I've heard it's weird, this,
like, renewed interest in the cult.
>> Andy Root (37:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:30):
From different sources. And I'm wondering, like, if there's something there about
this despair of
folks wanting. Like, we've been so,
um. What's the word?
Like, this idea. There's any kind of transcendence. We've been so taken
away from transcendence right within,
like, Christian, even religious circles
(37:52):
that we've kind of written those things off as myth.
Uh, and we recognize, like, people recognize there's this despair
or hunger for something more, and they're finding, like,
paths of transcendence in these, like, demonic or
occultic paths. And
I'm just curious, like, do you. Have you made the connection? What
are your thoughts?
>> Andy Root (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, to take your second one first, I mean, I do think that
there is an odd kind of thing, is that
the more you push the kind of
the structures of disenchantment, the more people feel
disenchanted. I mean, there was a really. People
can Google this. There was a very interesting. I think it was an
Atlantic article. It's probably like, 6, 7 years old
(38:32):
right now. It was right around Christmas time it came
out, and it was about the, like, rise
of, um, uh, demon possessions.
I mean, this was like, you know, this was a very strange thing, a
beautiful Christmas article. You know. Um, but one of the things that the
article said, and I guess one of the ways they found that there's
been this rise of, like, demon possessions and exorcisms
(38:52):
is because every Catholic diocese has someone who
does exorcisms. And. But
it's not like, on the website, because I think those people would just
be bombarded by Hollywood screenwriters if they were,
you know. So, um. But, you know, somebody talked to these
folks, and, yeah, they had all these experiences and told all these stories.
But one of the. And I think this. I mean, uh, as far as I know, this is
(39:12):
just kind of a secular journalist. Like, this is
wild that, you know that this this happens in our world.
But they do point out, and I think this is really true, is that
when you live in very kind of
disenchanted times, then all
of a sudden, to find meaning, people
start turning to the
(39:32):
supernatural. They start turning to certain,
you know, certain kind of, you know, UFO
sightings on YouTube. They start turning to all this
stuff. But of course, some of them then turn into things
like voodoo and other, like, legit,
you know, like, some just turn into, like, Harry Potter
fandom, um, whatever. But that also, that same
(39:52):
sensibility can turn you into going into some, you
know, very ancient, some very dark kind of
occult practices. And so their. Their
whole point is, like, there's a correlation,
like institutional disenchantment and then
individuals. Certain individuals turning and looking
at these. Um, so, you know, like
institutional disenchantment that undercuts
(40:14):
organized forms of religion from a society,
but people have to find spiritual
outlet. And when you relativize
organized forms of religion, then. And
it's just a buffet of spirituality. So then. Well, maybe
voodoo is just as well. It is. You
know, in some sense, it's just as legit as any. It's just as
legit as Judaism or it's just as legit as reading
(40:37):
the Quran or the Nicene Creed.
Well, that can lead to some
dark situations. Again, look at this Atlantic
article. It's fascinating. Um, and
so I think that's really true with the disenchantment piece.
But the way I use the
demonic perspective in this kind of
conversation around consolation is I do want to be very
(40:59):
careful because there's a certain way, and the Christian tradition
has fallen into this, where we start to glorify a kind of
masochistic suffering, you know, like, where we
end up starting to kind of whip ourselves, or
we tell certain people are being abused or hurt, like, oh,
well, actually, you're closer to God, and. And we don't have
to intervene and stop this abuse because, you know,
(41:19):
it's good. It. You know, and I want to stay far away
from that. But that does become a kind of
demonic form because it
thrusts people into deep, deep senses of isolation.
And one of the ways I want to protect from, I think an
overstatement that Pascal makes is where he says, you know, if
you turn in and fall into your suffering, you'll
find a great presence there. And his story
(41:42):
is one of himself, you know, like
in his flat, in his apartment in
Paris, having this experience of God's fire, you know,
and realizing it's not the God of the philosophers, it's the God of
uh, uh, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that comes to
him. Fire, fire, fire. But I do think that that's an
over an ass and it potentially is an
individualism that we should be careful of
(42:05):
that really to fall into
your suffering, to interrogate your
suffering for a great presence there. You're going to need other
people to join you in it. Um, you can't do
it by yourself. There's a communal dynamic,
there is a chaplain dynamic.
Um, I just do not think it would be good. I think
(42:25):
it'd be potentially demonic in
maybe a lowercase D way of demonic. If what
hospitals did or whatever was, well,
maybe this is coming. Just simply give you a kind of
chatbot to deal with this.
Um, and say you're on your own, but here's
a couple sheets or a website and
my gosh, a podcast to listen to and, uh,
(42:48):
good luck to you. I think that is
actually quite a demonic activity that thrusts people into
further isolation to face their great
goodbyes. The Christian church makes this
articulation that we will accompany you in your great
goodbye. We even have liturgies and symbols and
practices to say goodbye. And that,
(43:09):
that's what our funerals are. You know, that our funerals are
ways of having this great
goodbye. You have to tell, to put it inside of a
larger story, which is, you know, I threw
shade on, um, celebrations of life. That's what I worry about
is that a celebration of life actually steps
outside and becomes one last individualist
(43:30):
act of an individual. One last way to
perform yourself from the grave. You know, that everyone
celebrates instead of saying in
grief, this person is gone. But there is
this larger story that holds them. There are these
symbols in these rituals and human
beings have to make sense of that and, you know, to
connect these two points. If we don't have it, if we lose it,
(43:53):
if we devalue it, people will go looking for it,
it. And you know, you, you'll see, you'll see this at
funerals where people all of a sudden do all sorts of kind of pagan
occult, like kind of little practices to say
goodbye or, you know, imagine that
they would never believe in the Nicene Creed, but do believe that
fairies will come, you know, and uh, and visit
their mother, um, or something. You know, I don't know if that's true or
(44:16):
whatever, but you get where this is going, that it's really important
that um, we continue, I think, both
in, in our relationships, but also in our
practices and shared life to help people say goodbye and to
accompany them as they do. And big Goodbyes and
small goodbyes. I mean, it is a real poignant goodbye
to have to say goodbye to your kids. No longer being
(44:38):
5 or 10 or them leaving
high school. There's a grief that you go through
that is quite natural and beautiful, but it
also is a goodbye. And there's a kind of,
uh, an existential pain to that. And we need.
We need others to hold us in that. We need symbols and rituals to
help us through those moments.
>> Loren (45:00):
Yeah. I want to read this quote from near the end of your
book 268. You write, Our goodbyes
are the place where God chooses to work,
electing us for life. Our sorrowful
goodbyes are the only sign that we are chosen and
therefore predestined for salvation by God.
Those who must say goodbye, which is of course all of
humanity, are those whom God promises to
(45:23):
be. For by being with
so powerful quote really struck me and it made
me think about. And I think you explore this certainly in this book
and then your last book about what the church
in the age of secular mysticism about
confession and surrender. Like, uh, I feel like that's something
that I just have re.
(45:43):
Recognized the importance of in my own life.
Last question would be this. Just talk about confession,
surrender and how. Yeah, how you understand that.
>> Andy Root (45:53):
Yeah, well, I understand it exactly how
I want to explore the depth of it. Exactly how that woman,
uh, at the Facebook, uh, marketplace, your experience
through Facebook Marketplace with her is confession.
I mean, when she says, you know, when you, you ask a
question like, do you have a referee in your life? And she
says, my husband's dying of brain cancer. You know, like
(46:14):
that, that is a confession. And there
then is a call put upon you.
I mean, this is very much Bonhoeffer's,
uh, here's the call of Jesus Christ to follow.
And your follow is, do you surrender to
this moment and where it might take you and
what it might mean to walk with her even for these five
(46:34):
minutes, you know, you still get to have your boundary. You
still, you know, you don't have to sit with her for three
hours while your own children are in the backseat of your car,
you know, roasting on a hot day. You still get. Get to
say, you know, I, I need to go, but, you know, I've heard you,
but there is a kind of surrender of, can you have a. But
can you have a human moment with her? Um,
(46:55):
can you give a ministry of
presence to her? Will you surrender to where that might
take you? Will you risk the uncontrollability
of that moment? Um, but it really starts by
you asking a question that then leads her, in utter
bravery and beauty, to make a confession. And the
confession, um,
isn't what we would assume, like, I am a sinner. Can you
(47:18):
pray? Can we go through the four spiritual laws right now? No.
Her confession is, I'm at a loss.
>> Loren (47:25):
Mhm.
>> Andy Root (47:25):
I am grieving and I am
alone. I need someone to hold this with me.
And the question is, even for this two, three
minutes, will you hold it for her? And
will that be. Can the rest of the church, as a communal reality,
when we hear you tell that story, can we see
that, can we proclaim that that is a sacramental
reality? I mean, uh, at least with a lowercase S, that there's a way
(47:48):
that that event, that common
event that is so uncommon, especially in
our cultural moment of sharing each other's place in this moment
and bearing each other's confession and surrendering to that
moment was this woman coming up against
the very presence of Jesus Christ, who takes
all deaths and works life out of them. Yeah.
>> Loren (48:08):
Because there's a surrender almost on her part too, right.
In that of I'm surrendering
some sort of
sense of pride or
appearance, you know, that I've got it all together.
>> Andy Root (48:25):
Yeah. That you might just think, here's a crazy woman who's just
telling me stuff she shouldn't.
>> Loren (48:29):
She has no idea who I am. And she's like, I could just. She could be
like, oh, this guy's gonna think I'm a nut job.
Um, yeah, I mean, again,
uh, certainly I feel like this is your book, the last
book. What, what? Secularism or.
>> Andy Root (48:43):
Yeah, the Church in the Age of Secular Mysticism.
>> Loren (48:46):
Yeah. Where you talk about.
>> Andy Root (48:47):
I can't believe I knew the title of it.
>> Loren (48:48):
I usually do not know the title, Confession and Surrender.
But yeah, there's so much, uh.
I feel like it's so transformative, these practices.
So I appreciate your work. I look forward. Do you want to tease,
like, because you got another one coming out with your wife, Right.
>> Andy Root (49:03):
Yeah, we have a book that's, uh, will be a little
bit lower shelf than my other books, which are filled
with so many footnotes because I'm addicted to footnotes. But,
uh, yeah, this is a one that's going to
explore, uh, kind of parenting and pastoring, and we
were just talking about uncontrollability. It will kind of look
at uncontrollability and, uh, a kind of
release of control and the thinking about
(49:25):
pilgrimage as a way to think about parenting
and, uh, leading the church. So, um, that
comes out In September.
>> Loren (49:33):
Well, I'm looking forward to it. My daughter is entering into
teenagehood this summer. You talk about
goodbyes and grief.
>> Andy Root (49:40):
Yeah.
>> Loren (49:41):
Uh, and anxiety. All
relevant. Well, anything else you want to say about where folks
can connect with you or anything else?
>> Andy Root (49:49):
Yeah, ah, people can just find me. I have a website that's just
andrew.org and, uh, people can find me
there. And, uh, yeah,
uh, you can always email me too. I don't know if you'd want to do
that, but you always can find me on the. You can find me on the
interwebs.
>> Loren (50:04):
All right. The book is Evangelism in the Age of
Despair. And, uh, give us the
subtitle.
>> Andy Root (50:11):
Subtitle again. I gotta turn around and hope.
>> Loren (50:14):
I'm trying to read it off my phone and find print.
>> Andy Root (50:16):
It is called Hope Beyond Failed Promise of
Happiness. That's it.
>> Loren (50:21):
And the COVID is just. Just super gloom.
So it really.
>> Andy Root (50:25):
It is. It's, uh, very rainy and, uh.
Yeah.
>> Loren (50:28):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. Really
appreciate the conversation and, uh, safe travels.
Leave you with the word of peace. May God's peace be with you.
>> Andy Root (50:38):
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on the podcast too.
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
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(50:58):
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to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors,
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walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
one of our Future Christian Favorites, Dr.
Andrew Root. Andrew is the Carrie
Olson Balson professor of Youth and Family Ministry
at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.
He writes and researches in areas of theology,
(01:05):
ministry, culture, and younger generations.
His recent books are Churches and the
Crisis of Decline, When Church
Stops Working, and the Church After
Innovation. Andy has worked in
congregations, parachurch ministries, and
social service programs. He lives in St.
(01:25):
Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen
and Maisie, and their dog. When not
reading, writing or teaching, Andy spends
far too much time watching TV and movies.
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
(01:46):
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot
us an email, uh, @laurensonate
Ah, MediaPro.com
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We value your
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
of the church.
>> Loren (02:16):
Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Lorne
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be joined by
Dr. Andrew Root. Hello and welcome to the show.
>> Andy Root (02:25):
Hey, thanks for having me back. I'm, uh, really glad to be here.
>> Loren (02:28):
Yeah. Looking forward to the conversation. So
Andrew has been on the podcast before,
so if you want to look, listen back and hear about his
backstory, if you don't know who he is, I'll link
past episodes.
But Andy, one, uh, thing I always like to ask you
is, like, is what are you watching
and what relevance? You
(02:49):
know, I feel like you're so good at, like, finding,
you know, the cultural vibe within
entertainment. So I'm just kind of curious, like, what are you watching and
what are you noticing?
>> Andy Root (03:00):
I think I'm going to blow your illusion of me because,
like, what I'm in the middle of right now
is the Empress on,
um, Netflix. That's actually
a, uh, German, uh, biopic
series about, uh, Franz
Joseph the Habsburg,
(03:20):
uh, uh, Kaiser. So
don't I Seem super cool, like, very zeitgeist.
This is when you know you're becoming old, when you're like, I would like to watch
period pieces about the 19th century. Um,
so that's one I guess probably more
interesting, uh, is I'm forgetting the title of it now, but
the Steve Carell movie with the tech
(03:41):
Bros. Something, uh, mount, uh, with
Jason Schwarzman too. I watched that just a few
days ago and that is very zeitgeisty. I mean it is, you
know, these ultra rich tech guys,
uh, you know, like
in some, well, in some sense killing each other, but also
like, I don't know, you just see their moral vision of the world
(04:02):
and it's, it's very interesting and it, it fits my
bias. So I really liked it.
>> Loren (04:07):
Did you ever read Atlas Shrugged?
>> Andy Root (04:10):
No, I have never read it.
>> Loren (04:12):
So several years ago I just like made it my mission
to read that thing. Yeah, Uh, I mean it was a
slog and I skipped over like there's a section
in the book where it's. I forget the character.
Just like it has a hundred page. Literally
there's a hundred page speech.
>> Andy Root (04:28):
Oh, really?
>> Loren (04:29):
And I remember reading a biography on Ayn Rand
and it looks like she spent like a whole year
if. Or some unworth
ungodly amount of time on that speech. And I just kind of felt
bad and you know, completely
skipped over it. But also like, I mean that was the theme of
the book is all the rich people were building this
mega city, which I don't know if you've seen
(04:52):
the news about, uh, the current
administration wanting to sell off public lands. That could be happening
again.
>> Andy Root (04:59):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:00):
So that's, that's great.
>> Andy Root (05:02):
Yeah.
>> Loren (05:03):
I'm watching. My wife and I have been watching reruns of
Home improvement speaking of classic 90s
television. So I think it is kind of interesting for us
just kind of at least for me maybe to kind of see like
the cultural vibes of the 90s.
>> Andy Root (05:18):
Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?
>> Loren (05:20):
Right.
>> Andy Root (05:21):
And I can't tell if it's interesting just because I'm
old. And so I have like some
classic nostalgia for that. But I think it's more,
I think, I mean, I try to do this in this book. We're going to talk about like, I
think there's something about the way things were in
the 90s and uh, the way things are
now that there's a kind of contrast there. I mean
(05:41):
they're interconnected, but there's a major, I think,
moral contrast of uh, kind of
where we sit and how we even recognize
ourselves and see ourselves.
>> Loren (05:51):
Yeah. Speaking of 90s television, I just saw something
on Facebook that I guess Family Matters is coming back.
>> Andy Root (05:57):
Oh, really?
>> Loren (05:58):
So, uh, I'm kind of curious.
I mean, I spent so many years. I feel like
watching Urkel and company.
>> Andy Root (06:07):
Yeah, sure.
>> Loren (06:08):
It's a good 90s memory.
Well, speaking of your book, let's just jump right into it
because there's a lot I want to talk about and I want to hear from.
So the title of the book is what? Evangelism in the Age
of Despair. What's the subtitle?
>> Andy Root (06:22):
Oh, what is the subtitle? I think I do have it around
here. What it is, it's,
uh, Hope beyond
the Failed Promise of
Happiness.
>> Loren (06:32):
There you go.
>> Andy Root (06:33):
See how good I am at promoting my own book.
>> Loren (06:37):
So I think the first thing I want to ask is just about the title.
I think the title really struck me like that despair
word. It really feels like an apt
word for a moment. I mean, I think. I don't know if it's just
from reading your book or even
broader, like, the sense, I feel like in society of
nihilism and defeatism. Like,
(06:58):
it feels just like across the spectrum, like, even
certainly amongst the left, but I think there's. There's somewhat
of it to the right too, amongst the political right.
And I'm curious, kind of what. What sparked
that concept or that framing for you?
>> Andy Root (07:14):
Yeah, I mean, so this is. This is the second book that
I've written. I wrote a book a long time ago called the Promise of
Despair. So now I have a book with two
books with the word despair in the title. So you can see,
maybe. You can see maybe my psychological, uh,
dispos position, but they actually are quite different. I mean,
the despair here came from the publisher. So Jeremy
(07:35):
Wells at Baker, I think, came up with this, and I was very
happy to go with it. But really, I mean, there's a sense where you
could see despair in more of a kind of Kierkegaardian vein, a kind
of existentialist perspective, which you can hear in the
Promise of Despair. There's this sense of
despair opening up, but here it's more kind of
direct, I think. And, um, when we use the word
despair in the title, it's simply maybe
(07:58):
shorthand or maybe a kind of
punk rock version of just this
malaise of unhappiness that's fallen on people.
And that's really what I wanted to point to here, is that I think we're
in a moment and in A time where
people just feel really fundamentally
unhappy. And, uh, that these
have been really hard three decades of the 21st
(08:20):
century. And we see the
symptoms of that in multiple ways, from mental health
crisis to huge senses of economic
inequality, to what feels like
a daily kind of political cris. These
things are just everywhere. And people kind of are just sitting,
looking at their screens, scrolling through social media,
outraged and depressed and anxious. I mean,
(08:43):
my gosh, we have 11 and 12 year olds who are
overwhelmed with levels of anxiety.
Um, so here despair really
just kind of means this malaise of.
Yeah, unhappiness, I guess is the best way to say
it. And as the subtitle says, part of the reason I think
we're just so damn unhappy is because we're so
hell bent on being happy. You know, we're
(09:05):
so sad because we just want to be happy so badly.
And, uh, it just might be that happiness isn't
a good that actually can provide what we
yearn for. And it, it, the more you chase
it, the more it disappears from your hands
and the more unhappy it makes you.
>> Loren (09:22):
I was curious if you came across this when you're
writing your book. I remember. Gosh. What's the
podcast now?
>> Andy Root (09:30):
Shoot.
>> Loren (09:30):
It's an NPR podcast. I'm blanking on the title.
Um, oh, my
goodness. This is for me not getting
sleep last night. Um,
Chankar Vedantim. What's that podcast?
>> Andy Root (09:45):
You're asking the wrong guy. I only listen to hockey
podcasts.
>> Loren (09:51):
Folks who know it will listen to it, will recognize
it. Um, npr, Shankar
Vedantam. Um, I'm forgetting the name of the podcast, but anyway,
some months ago, he did an episode back where he talked about
chasing happiness. It's like this thing. If we
keep trying to push down. I
remember them using the image of, uh, a seesaw. If we keep trying
(10:12):
to push down on that happiness button, that side,
it inevitably kind of boosts up
the sadness or the despair button.
Yeah, so.
Well, I do want to ask you because I think one thing
that really struck me when I first started reading the book, and I don't
(10:33):
know if this was intentional or not, but I'm curious. Like,
I immediately came to mind of chaplaincy and pastoral care
in your work early on. I'm curious, like,
was there inspiration there? How did that. Was it just.
Is that my reading into it?
>> Andy Root (10:48):
No, I don't think it's your reading into it. Um, there wasn't
like a direct kind of connection to,
to pastoral care, chaplaincy, but I think the
ultimate kind of theological construction
and even more so than theological construction, the kind of
ministerial, kind of drive of
practice is similar to that. I mean,
(11:08):
this book, the title of it is about
evangelism. That's the first word in its title. But in some ways
it's mislabeled because it's not evangelism
book where I'm giving you your six models of
evangelism. Pick one. Here's the pluses and the
minuses of each one. Um, you know,
it's more of a book really, where I think the constructive edge of
(11:29):
it is a theology of consolation.
Um, and so, you know, there is a connection that
I think you're rightly reading to chaplaincy
and to work with people in deep grief. And
even the story that I tell throughout this book about this
congregation and this way that these kind of lay people reach out
and essentially, I'm really, essentially making a case for how
(11:49):
we live evangelism more than think of evangelism as some kind of
strategy, you know, that we. That we leverage on
people and that that becomes all the more necessary in this
time where people are deeply sad.
Um, that people don't need a kind of
instrumentalized strategy to convert them towards an
idea. They need somebody who will accompany them and
(12:11):
walk with them through really moments of grief
and sadness and loss. And this has been a culture
that's really been built,
uh, in a hyper way, taken its form in the last
three decades where you really are alone. Competition
is everywhere. And there are certain illusions that you're
connected. Social media sites that say you have friends
(12:31):
and, uh, that you have connections. But these are all,
for the most part, like utter
illusions. And so when you do have a situation
happen, like you go through a miscarriage
or your father dies or something
like that, I mean, you will get a lot of responses
on social media. You post that, which in
(12:51):
some ways feels weird in itself, that this incredibly sacred
moment of grief you have, that you're going to, you know,
uh, disclose it on the. On the Internet.
But we do that. I mean, that's the way we are. Um, and
you will get a lot of responses, like you will get a lot of
sad face emojis on Facebook.
But what we don't really have in this society anymore are the
(13:12):
kind of practices where people walk with you,
where people sit with you. Um, you know,
that we don't even really have funerals anymore. We have
celebrations of life, you know, um, and
so there is definitely a kind of overtone
of thinking about these people who
walk in console with their presence,
which I think chaplains and uh,
(13:35):
pastoral care folks do every day of the week. There is a
way that I'm trying to get into that kind of
theological and practical dynamic.
>> Loren (13:44):
Yeah. I found the podcast
Hidden Brain. Hidden Brain is the podcast recommended.
So I think something that struck me, again,
reading the book, and I'll read a quote here from. From your book.
You write, consolation can never be theoretical. It must
be fundamentally practiced, is always
pastoral. Consolation is one of the
(14:04):
tradition's deepest forms of doing theology,
and it is never disconnected from the
practice of ministry. So, uh, I took
from that, this. This idea that real theology happens
on the ground. And I've often felt,
and I don't know, again, I think something from your book
defined it.
So I'm curious, your perspective. Do you think,
(14:25):
like, I think you suggest this, right.
That pastors and chaplains can be better theologians than
academics? I'm curious if your wife's role
as a pastor, seeing her do
this ministry work, does that influence your view?
>> Andy Root (14:40):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know if I've said this
on your podcast earlier, but I think one of the ways you could,
uh, in many ways, you could kind of reduce all
my work, which. All these books, one after the
other. I promise people there'll be three volumes and there's six volumes.
And, you know, essentially, this could be the seventh
volume. Yeah, we didn't label it that way.
(15:00):
Um, but in many ways you could, I think, reduce all my work down to
really, um, kind of, you know, giving.
I don't want to say justification, but essentially in a vision to what
my wife does as a. Um. My wife Kara does as a
pastor to a small congregation in South Minneapolis. So
there. There's no doubt. I mean, I don't ever want to
confuse or have anyone confuse me as a. As a
(15:21):
practicing pastor. I'm not in that. I'm an academic,
but I have a pretty direct seat to watch
this. And it's not at a megachurch. It's at a
little fragile church of, you know, of
less than 100 people. And it is just, you know,
finding a way to continue year after year.
But there are these incredible moments and incredible
(15:41):
needs of giving consolation and, you
know, walking into that fire. And that's what
a pastor does. A pastor walks into,
you know, instead of running away from the grief, they walk
into the grief. And they walk into the grief. Not to fix
it, um, not even, you know, not even as maybe
like a therapist would do, but simply to be present
(16:02):
within it, um, and to testify to God's
presence, um, in the midst of that presence. And I
find that to be in a profoundly sacred
reality. So the stories that I see in the
places where I see, you know, Cara does this beautiful. It really
lives out of theology, is in these kinds
of moments, you know, where you, you know,
(16:22):
prepare a, uh, woman in her 40s to
die, you know, as. As the doctor says, there's
no other treatment here. And then help her, her
husband and her daughter live
after this incredible rupture and loss and
live in the grief. Like, uh, having a
congregation, forming a congregation who can do that kind of
consoling work, and then, you know, doing it yourself as
(16:44):
a pastor again, you know, to say. To say it again,
it just feels like such a sacred act and
one that's just so deeply needed in this cultural,
um, that we've just kind of lost. And I think
we just have a bunch of lonely, really sad people
who are, um, in some ways,
uh, anesthetizing themselves with just more and more
(17:05):
social media that makes them more and more outraged.
Um, and that the outrage is some ways, uh, a
distraction from the pain that they live
with of the sorrow they have. And, uh, maybe
the church's great testimony and witness in this moment, the
great ministry it could do, is simply to walk with people and
be formed by practices of consolation.
>> Loren (17:26):
Yeah. I think that's so important.
It leads me to another thought I had
reading the book. And this is the idea that
I think you tease at this, and I think this is, um, certainly something
I recognize as well, that there's this feeling in society right
now that sorrow is contagious. It's like, we don't want to get
too close to it. It's like a sickness or disease.
(17:47):
We know someone's got a cold, so we want to necessarily get up in
their business. And we kind of treat sorrow like the same. Like, we'll
come and give you a hug, you know, pat your
back within. Like, we don't want to. We don't.
We don't want to. We don't want to catch it. But I think, like, there's.
There's some truth that, like, it kind of is contagious. And what I
mean by that is like. Like
(18:07):
when we. When we go and truly enter into the sorrow
of another, like, we feel it. Like we feel their sorrow.
But also, I think, like, it kind of, like,
builds up our immunity.
>> Andy Root (18:18):
Again, this is.
>> Loren (18:19):
I'm playing kind of with this metaphor.
>> Andy Root (18:21):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Loren (18:22):
And strengthens us to be able to handle
sorrow in our own lives and the lives of others.
>> Andy Root (18:28):
Yeah.
>> Loren (18:29):
Is that fair?
>> Andy Root (18:30):
Yeah, no, I think that is true. I mean, I
do think that there's a kind of mystical reality
to sharing this. I mean, in many ways, like the tradition,
I do want to kind of point out to the reader here,
and again, maybe this is completely self indulgent, but,
um, that there's a long tail to this in the history
of Christianity. It really goes back to the patristics
(18:52):
era. And there is a kind of deep sense that
there's a, uh, mystical reality that when
you. When suffering is
shared, there's a certain way that it's.
That, I don't know, call it. Its
demonic, isolating force
is broken. And yes, it is
(19:12):
legitimately held by another. But I
kind of like your metaphor of that. We
actually have a stronger immune system or something to do
to deal with it in some say. I think what
it ultimately is, and I try to use Blaise Pascal in
the book to show this, is that Pascal actually thinks
you can only really be in touch as a human
(19:33):
being with your spiritual depth, with the
sense of being, of course, material and
embodied, but that also having a kind of sense of soul to
it by surrendering in some ways
to your sorrow. Um, because the only other option is to
continue to distract yourself from it or to try to think
yourself out of it. And neither of those are
(19:53):
very good. And his great wager is that if
you fall into your sorrow, if you'll admit
that you're filled with sorrow or that there's something
within you that can't kind of complete yourself, that you need something
from outside of you, that he thinks that you'll find a great
presence there. And, you know, Blaise Pascal
is one of the great converts of the
(20:14):
Christian church who, uh, uh,
found a great presence there that he found fire
in. Um, changed him.
>> Loren (20:23):
Yeah, I want to come back to that,
the illustration you made about the demonic. But the other side of
that interesting thing about, like, the
contagion of sorrow that struck me
is I noticed this, like, a few months ago, I
started working again as a chaplain. And I felt like once, like, I
started, like, uh, essentially willingly
started walking into the sorrow of another person.
(20:45):
Like, I feel like it's found me more.
Um, and I'm curious, like, if you thought about that.
>> Andy Root (20:50):
Like.
>> Loren (20:51):
Like when you step into another sorrow, like, you become
more. I don't know if it's like, more attuned or people
have the sense that they. They know you're someone who will
bear their challenges with them.
What do you think?
>> Andy Root (21:05):
Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting Thought like there uh, like in some
sense there's a kind of we'll get real nerdy here but
right. Almost like a kind of
uh, ontological mark on you in some
way that you can go
to the place of nothingness. See now we're, now we're really
sounding um, nuts here. But I do think
(21:25):
there's something to that. I mean
I just think of people who've had to live
through these incredible experiences of grief. Like they have
seen something, they've had a
deep experience that um, forever
marks their being, their way of being in the world.
And I think that those such ah, that journey with people
this way. I think the pastoral
(21:48):
practice is one where you do become marked
by the sorrows of others and
no one can really bear that unless being marked by those
sorrows is also for them
to be sacramental in some way, for them to bring you into
the very marks of Jesus Christ
and to have this kind of vision.
(22:11):
So maybe this is also a vision perspective too. From your
side you're attentive more but there is this sense of
like Jesus Christ is found in sorrow.
And I think it's kind of both ways that we become more
attentive to follow and look for Jesus Christ in
sorrow. Um, but also I do think that
there's something that you're right about. There's a kind of mark that
(22:31):
you've seen, something that you've been to a depth
that leaves you forever
ever changed. And I think particularly
people who find themselves up against that thinness
of being, um, can, can
recognize that, can, can sense that in some way.
Um. And yeah, I don't know, I'm willing to say that that has
(22:51):
something to do with the fact that we are these strange
embodied creatures who
nevertheless are, are filled with
spirit, long for spirit, um, and yet can never
get outside our bodies in yearning for that.
>> Loren (23:06):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because like
I work very part time as
a chaplain so I tend to work these on call
overnight shifts and it's, it's not fun at all getting
called you know, at 2:00am M. In the morning
or right in the middle of dinner time which is
similar for some reason when people seem to need a
(23:27):
chaplain always, never conveniently at like you know,
6:37 at night. But
I like, it's interesting like for me like
I found like. I don't know how else to describe it as like there's an addictive
nature to it because like I know like when I'm
in, in like when I'm in it with
Somebody like, it feels like I can,
(23:47):
it's tangible, like, I don't know, like I can sense
God's presence. And to me, like, there's this,
uh, I don't know, whatever better used word to use,
like, except addictive. Because like, I sense like I'm
gonna, I'm gonna experience God's presence
there. And it's so powerful,
um, that again, it, it's like it overwhelms
(24:08):
the fact that, that I'm waking up at 2am or
whatever that next day.
And I'm also reminded of
going back to the point about
finding suffering or being more aware. Again, I
don't know how to say it exactly, but I bought
something from somebody on Facebook Marketplace and just happened
(24:29):
to set a word, just
set a comment about the item I was buying.
And the woman paused and was like, my husband's dying of brain cancer.
>> Andy Root (24:38):
Wow.
>> Loren (24:40):
And I just kind of like stopped and paused
and stepped in and listened. And I think
that's literally the metaphor
of your book. It's like just stepping in.
Um, yeah.
And that's why again, I found the book so powerful and
so precise of what I feel like the moment is right now.
>> Andy Root (25:02):
Yeah, yeah. And who knows, I mean, now we're projecting
onto this, this woman, but you know,
from a larger kind of ideal types
perspective, I think, you know, we could say she represents
a larger society who has no one to carry
that kind of confession.
>> Loren (25:18):
Right.
>> Andy Root (25:18):
So here it comes, you know, to someone that is
embodied, um, at her door,
you know, just uh, the smallest little
opening is the sense that they
need someone to carry this. And you know, that we just,
we just don't have anymore. We just don't
have those kind of interactions. And even
(25:38):
when we have, you know, this person having other interactions with
neighbors or whatever, life is so accelerated
so fast and people are quite
frightened that,
um, they can't slow down enough. I mean, here's
the reality of, you know, uh, as you well know
in chaplaincy, work and others is that like you just
kind of said it never happens nine to five. You
(26:01):
know, it always happens outside of it. I mean,
it always is an interruption. And I think kind
of in a weird cultural way, we are
absolutely offended at being interrupted from our own
pursuits of making our own happiness.
So, you know, there's a kind of sense like ain't no one got time
for someone to tell them that their husband is dying of brain
(26:21):
cancer. And yet what else is
human life, you know, and particularly what else is the
Christian story other than to
have something to say to that, and not even just to
say to it as a kind of rationalist knowledge, but,
uh, a say to it with a presence, with a
participation, even if it is only for those
(26:42):
two minutes to have a human response
that says, this is a great
journey and this is an
incredibly significant goodbye that you're going
to now have to live through.
Uh, and that there is something
sacred, um, even in its horribleness about.
About having to say goodbye. And there's no human life
(27:04):
that's not about saying goodbye. I mean, I try to draw this out in the book,
uh, of the French
mystic, um, and thinker, uh, uh,
Jerseau, uh, who says,
like, the Christian life is a life of pilgrimage, and the
pilgrim always does this ad diem to God.
But what I think, fascinating that the link I tried to make
(27:25):
is in France at this time to say adiem was an
idiom for goodbye. So the pilgrim also has to
say goodbye. They walk towards God,
but they leave something. And if you're walking in the medieval
period, you leave to walk 60
miles or something. Who knows if you're ever going to return and how
long that's going to take. So it is a walk in. To kind of
(27:46):
walk into death. And, uh,
his perspective is that this is what the Christian life
is. It's saying goodbye, it's
having to say goodbye. But you do that with,
um, within God's grace, within God's
mercy, within God's act. And I think that we're in a
culture that people are in denial that they have
(28:07):
to say goodbye. And when it happens, they haven't thought
about it. They have no rituals, they have no practices.
And worst of all, they have no persons
in communities to walk with them in this.
And so, you know, my real push here is to not think of
evangelism as an instrumental pursuit
or strategy, but to think of it as an awareness
(28:30):
that we walk
into sorrow with people. And even if it's just
while we're picking up our. I don't know. Did you say what you bought
on Facebook? Marketplace? Even as you
pick that up, I don't know what it was. Um, and
you get this confession that you at least hold it for a
few minutes. I mean, that's an incredible
testimony to, uh, God's
(28:52):
mercy and God's act.
>> Loren (28:54):
Yeah, because it was just like I was buying. I
officiate lacrosse, high school lacrosse. And I was buying.
This lady was selling some officiating shirts.
Uh, and I'm just like, hey, do you have an official in your life?
>> Andy Root (29:06):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:07):
And I just. I don't know, I'm gonna assume,
I'm gonna hope or. Or wish, I don't know,
that it was the prompting of the spirit. Right. That said,
say that line.
>> Andy Root (29:17):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:19):
And then she kind of paused and started to
choke up, you know, and she said, my husband
has brain cancer and he's dying.
>> Andy Root (29:26):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:27):
You know, and you kind of just like, let it
hold there for a moment, and then I stepped in,
you know, and it was, you know, maybe a minute, two minutes,
wasn't long, but, uh, I kind of just walked away, like,
said a few more things. And
again, having just read your book,
I said, you know, may God's peace be with
(29:50):
you.
>> Andy Root (29:50):
Yeah.
>> Loren (29:52):
You know, and it kind of left her at that.
>> Andy Root (29:55):
Um, there's something really beautiful in that
because, you know, your prompt to her,
is there an official in your life? You know?
>> Loren (30:05):
Right.
>> Andy Root (30:05):
Um, it's really an invitation for her to
narrate, to tell a story. You
know, like, you didn't say, like, how much were these
originally? What was the cost of these originally?
Or, uh, is there any coffee stains on these? Or, you
know, like, you. It there. It wasn't a kind of
quid pro quo kind of framed by an
economic reality. You asked her to
(30:27):
testify to a person and, you know, is there an official
in your life? I mean, there's a. That's a deep story. And of course,
this husband she has, I would imagine, like a big
piece of his life was officiating, and now she's
giving away part of his.
His things. You know, this is very, you know,
Martin, uh, Heidegger kind of sense is that we have
our being in and around these things. We have our Daz design
(30:50):
in them. And so for her to give these up
either, because he can't use
them anymore, is
a big step of goodbye. And I mean,
what a sacred act for you to take these
things that clearly at a level
represent her husband to her and
essentially say, I'll treasure them.
(31:12):
Um, that they mean something to me
too. Um, you know, it had been very different if you looked
at them and thinks, oh, man, I'm going to flip these babies on ebay and I'm going to make,
you know, make 25 bucks per
shirt, you know, um,
to hear her story and then to
bless her is exactly, I think, in
(31:32):
very microcosm what I hope the church can be for the
world, you know, bearing the world's
stories and giving a word of blessing as
people have to say goodbye. Um,
you know, in. In an openness to journey with people,
even if it is just for that two minutes
on a porch. But, you know, um, I also try to give
stories in the book of people who journey much longer than
(31:55):
with the church. And, um. But we won't
journey for two minutes and say, do you have a. Do you have.
Do you have an official referee in your life?
And then hear that story. Um, because, you know,
another move anyone could make and we're would feel tempted to
make. I do it, unfortunately, all the time on airplanes is
when the conversation starts. You put up all the things like,
(32:16):
not want. This is too much for me, you
know?
>> Loren (32:19):
Right, right.
>> Andy Root (32:20):
And you. And there is a certain, wow, there's just
a. There is a move of
discipleship that's just willing
to let. Let this occur. Um,
and it could get really weird. I mean, she could say, yeah, my
husband is, uh, not with me anymore because he
was a ufo. Took him.
(32:40):
I'm sure it was a ufo. And that, you know, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, what do I
do with this? Like, there's a certain way we want to avoid
all of that, so we don't even allow
for the uncontrollable moment
of this beautiful articulation.
Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think she sees something in you, but I think
there's also an attentiveness and a kind of spiritual
(33:01):
practice you have that. That allows this
beautiful moment to occur.
>> Loren (33:05):
I mean, it's kind of hilarious being on the
other side of how so many people just can't handle.
Handle grief. Like, I'm thinking of, uh,
something a month or two ago where I was called into
the hospital for a really tragic, really tragic
young man died unexpectedly. And, like,
there's a nurse, like, the family's literally
(33:28):
weeping over this young man's body, and the nurse is, like, walking
around restocking m the room.
>> Andy Root (33:32):
Them.
Yeah, yeah, there could be. I. I think like a
very, uh. I don't know.
>> Loren (33:40):
That's kind of how we treat it. Like, people don't know what to do.
Uh, Like, I was just in o' Hare in a
layover yesterday, and I just happened over here, like, right next
to me, this guy. I think it was a pilot, like, saying
on the phone, telling someone else that. That
I think the other pilot had trauma dumped on him, that his wife was having an
affair.
>> Andy Root (34:01):
This isn't funny. I don't know why I'm laughing, but that just seems.
>> Loren (34:04):
Yeah, well, it points to a point
you made in the book about people having nobody, and they have to, like, pay
somebody to share when they're Pain that
you talk about in the book. I mean, you don't call it, but it
is better help.
>> Andy Root (34:19):
Yep. I will say I said earlier I only
listen to hockey podcasts, but I also do
listen to the rest is history. Um, and they are always
advertising. So that was the
inspiration for the pseudo.
Uh, I hid the
identity of BetterHelp with, uh,
(34:39):
a character, but the innocent. Yeah,
but I mean, I mean, you do think about better help. And this isn't like
the. To be negative towards therapy
or the psychoanalytic or,
you know, biological, uh, uh,
psychiatric practice or anything like that. But it is really
fascinating that, that now in
those commercials particularly, it's like, allow
(35:02):
you to quickly get what you
need. Like, there's a certain sense, like the app
allows for a frictionless, if you
will, like, therapeutic experience in
the way that they sell it on a lot of these podcasts, which I tried to play up,
uh, in the book. Is that it really is that, uh, way to help you
work on yourself? Have you ever been stuck? I mean, this isn't a kind
of sense like there's a
(35:24):
sickness that you have to deal with. It's kind of like
you just need someone to talk to to help you hack your way out
of these. These issues. And again, to
me, that, that just reflects how lonely we are, you
know, like that people's friends don't
have time to listen to them talk about that
or, you know, like. Yeah,
(35:46):
or people don't want to burden their. Their friends or their family with
that. Um, or that people are just utterly isolated
that way. So why not, you know, use
an app or a chatbot to
get, um, some advice on how to deal with, you know,
your tensions with the girlfriend you've had
for two months or something, or to deal with the
(36:07):
fact that you have a hard time with commitment and that you can feel
yourself already pulling away from this girlfriend. Like, you know,
um, and, you know, that has something to do with your
relationship with your mother. But, you know, you would dislike some
quick life hacks to get. Get to get through that.
And, uh, you know, people, even the kind of
long road of
psychotherapy, uh, like Freud just kind of felt like he couldn't
(36:30):
get better. But you could, you could talk this
out for a long time and kind, uh, of
stabilize yourself, but that you'll always have to deal with the kind
of existential tensions. We just want it to be fixed
in some way, and if big tech can
fix it for us, let's go that route.
>> Loren (36:47):
Uh, well, let's take a quick break here. And let's come back with
some closing questions.
I do want to ask about the
demonic, as you call it in your book. And
the idea was intriguing
because I think you talk about, uh. There's
two things I want to explore here. Quickly here as we wrap
(37:10):
up the entering. Sorrow alone can be
demonic. And I was thinking about this similarly.
I don't know if you even thought to this as, like, suffering alone
can be demonic too. I don't know if you'd make that connection,
but that's what came to me. And then I was also thinking about,
like, I've heard it's weird, this,
like, renewed interest in the cult.
>> Andy Root (37:30):
Yeah.
>> Loren (37:30):
From different sources. And I'm wondering, like, if there's something there about
this despair of
folks wanting. Like, we've been so,
um. What's the word?
Like, this idea. There's any kind of transcendence. We've been so taken
away from transcendence right within,
like, Christian, even religious circles
(37:52):
that we've kind of written those things off as myth.
Uh, and we recognize, like, people recognize there's this despair
or hunger for something more, and they're finding, like,
paths of transcendence in these, like, demonic or
occultic paths. And
I'm just curious, like, do you. Have you made the connection? What
are your thoughts?
>> Andy Root (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, to take your second one first, I mean, I do think that
there is an odd kind of thing, is that
the more you push the kind of
the structures of disenchantment, the more people feel
disenchanted. I mean, there was a really. People
can Google this. There was a very interesting. I think it was an
Atlantic article. It's probably like, 6, 7 years old
(38:32):
right now. It was right around Christmas time it came
out, and it was about the, like, rise
of, um, uh, demon possessions.
I mean, this was like, you know, this was a very strange thing, a
beautiful Christmas article. You know. Um, but one of the things that the
article said, and I guess one of the ways they found that there's
been this rise of, like, demon possessions and exorcisms
(38:52):
is because every Catholic diocese has someone who
does exorcisms. And. But
it's not like, on the website, because I think those people would just
be bombarded by Hollywood screenwriters if they were,
you know. So, um. But, you know, somebody talked to these
folks, and, yeah, they had all these experiences and told all these stories.
But one of the. And I think this. I mean, uh, as far as I know, this is
(39:12):
just kind of a secular journalist. Like, this is
wild that, you know that this this happens in our world.
But they do point out, and I think this is really true, is that
when you live in very kind of
disenchanted times, then all
of a sudden, to find meaning, people
start turning to the
(39:32):
supernatural. They start turning to certain,
you know, certain kind of, you know, UFO
sightings on YouTube. They start turning to all this
stuff. But of course, some of them then turn into things
like voodoo and other, like, legit,
you know, like, some just turn into, like, Harry Potter
fandom, um, whatever. But that also, that same
(39:52):
sensibility can turn you into going into some, you
know, very ancient, some very dark kind of
occult practices. And so their. Their
whole point is, like, there's a correlation,
like institutional disenchantment and then
individuals. Certain individuals turning and looking
at these. Um, so, you know, like
institutional disenchantment that undercuts
(40:14):
organized forms of religion from a society,
but people have to find spiritual
outlet. And when you relativize
organized forms of religion, then. And
it's just a buffet of spirituality. So then. Well, maybe
voodoo is just as well. It is. You
know, in some sense, it's just as legit as any. It's just as
legit as Judaism or it's just as legit as reading
(40:37):
the Quran or the Nicene Creed.
Well, that can lead to some
dark situations. Again, look at this Atlantic
article. It's fascinating. Um, and
so I think that's really true with the disenchantment piece.
But the way I use the
demonic perspective in this kind of
conversation around consolation is I do want to be very
(40:59):
careful because there's a certain way, and the Christian tradition
has fallen into this, where we start to glorify a kind of
masochistic suffering, you know, like, where we
end up starting to kind of whip ourselves, or
we tell certain people are being abused or hurt, like, oh,
well, actually, you're closer to God, and. And we don't have
to intervene and stop this abuse because, you know,
(41:19):
it's good. It. You know, and I want to stay far away
from that. But that does become a kind of
demonic form because it
thrusts people into deep, deep senses of isolation.
And one of the ways I want to protect from, I think an
overstatement that Pascal makes is where he says, you know, if
you turn in and fall into your suffering, you'll
find a great presence there. And his story
(41:42):
is one of himself, you know, like
in his flat, in his apartment in
Paris, having this experience of God's fire, you know,
and realizing it's not the God of the philosophers, it's the God of
uh, uh, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that comes to
him. Fire, fire, fire. But I do think that that's an
over an ass and it potentially is an
individualism that we should be careful of
(42:05):
that really to fall into
your suffering, to interrogate your
suffering for a great presence there. You're going to need other
people to join you in it. Um, you can't do
it by yourself. There's a communal dynamic,
there is a chaplain dynamic.
Um, I just do not think it would be good. I think
(42:25):
it'd be potentially demonic in
maybe a lowercase D way of demonic. If what
hospitals did or whatever was, well,
maybe this is coming. Just simply give you a kind of
chatbot to deal with this.
Um, and say you're on your own, but here's
a couple sheets or a website and
my gosh, a podcast to listen to and, uh,
(42:48):
good luck to you. I think that is
actually quite a demonic activity that thrusts people into
further isolation to face their great
goodbyes. The Christian church makes this
articulation that we will accompany you in your great
goodbye. We even have liturgies and symbols and
practices to say goodbye. And that,
(43:09):
that's what our funerals are. You know, that our funerals are
ways of having this great
goodbye. You have to tell, to put it inside of a
larger story, which is, you know, I threw
shade on, um, celebrations of life. That's what I worry about
is that a celebration of life actually steps
outside and becomes one last individualist
(43:30):
act of an individual. One last way to
perform yourself from the grave. You know, that everyone
celebrates instead of saying in
grief, this person is gone. But there is
this larger story that holds them. There are these
symbols in these rituals and human
beings have to make sense of that and, you know, to
connect these two points. If we don't have it, if we lose it,
(43:53):
if we devalue it, people will go looking for it,
it. And you know, you, you'll see, you'll see this at
funerals where people all of a sudden do all sorts of kind of pagan
occult, like kind of little practices to say
goodbye or, you know, imagine that
they would never believe in the Nicene Creed, but do believe that
fairies will come, you know, and uh, and visit
their mother, um, or something. You know, I don't know if that's true or
(44:16):
whatever, but you get where this is going, that it's really important
that um, we continue, I think, both
in, in our relationships, but also in our
practices and shared life to help people say goodbye and to
accompany them as they do. And big Goodbyes and
small goodbyes. I mean, it is a real poignant goodbye
to have to say goodbye to your kids. No longer being
(44:38):
5 or 10 or them leaving
high school. There's a grief that you go through
that is quite natural and beautiful, but it
also is a goodbye. And there's a kind of,
uh, an existential pain to that. And we need.
We need others to hold us in that. We need symbols and rituals to
help us through those moments.
>> Loren (45:00):
Yeah. I want to read this quote from near the end of your
book 268. You write, Our goodbyes
are the place where God chooses to work,
electing us for life. Our sorrowful
goodbyes are the only sign that we are chosen and
therefore predestined for salvation by God.
Those who must say goodbye, which is of course all of
humanity, are those whom God promises to
(45:23):
be. For by being with
so powerful quote really struck me and it made
me think about. And I think you explore this certainly in this book
and then your last book about what the church
in the age of secular mysticism about
confession and surrender. Like, uh, I feel like that's something
that I just have re.
(45:43):
Recognized the importance of in my own life.
Last question would be this. Just talk about confession,
surrender and how. Yeah, how you understand that.
>> Andy Root (45:53):
Yeah, well, I understand it exactly how
I want to explore the depth of it. Exactly how that woman,
uh, at the Facebook, uh, marketplace, your experience
through Facebook Marketplace with her is confession.
I mean, when she says, you know, when you, you ask a
question like, do you have a referee in your life? And she
says, my husband's dying of brain cancer. You know, like
(46:14):
that, that is a confession. And there
then is a call put upon you.
I mean, this is very much Bonhoeffer's,
uh, here's the call of Jesus Christ to follow.
And your follow is, do you surrender to
this moment and where it might take you and
what it might mean to walk with her even for these five
(46:34):
minutes, you know, you still get to have your boundary. You
still, you know, you don't have to sit with her for three
hours while your own children are in the backseat of your car,
you know, roasting on a hot day. You still get. Get to
say, you know, I, I need to go, but, you know, I've heard you,
but there is a kind of surrender of, can you have a. But
can you have a human moment with her? Um,
(46:55):
can you give a ministry of
presence to her? Will you surrender to where that might
take you? Will you risk the uncontrollability
of that moment? Um, but it really starts by
you asking a question that then leads her, in utter
bravery and beauty, to make a confession. And the
confession, um,
isn't what we would assume, like, I am a sinner. Can you
(47:18):
pray? Can we go through the four spiritual laws right now? No.
Her confession is, I'm at a loss.
>> Loren (47:25):
Mhm.
>> Andy Root (47:25):
I am grieving and I am
alone. I need someone to hold this with me.
And the question is, even for this two, three
minutes, will you hold it for her? And
will that be. Can the rest of the church, as a communal reality,
when we hear you tell that story, can we see
that, can we proclaim that that is a sacramental
reality? I mean, uh, at least with a lowercase S, that there's a way
(47:48):
that that event, that common
event that is so uncommon, especially in
our cultural moment of sharing each other's place in this moment
and bearing each other's confession and surrendering to that
moment was this woman coming up against
the very presence of Jesus Christ, who takes
all deaths and works life out of them. Yeah.
>> Loren (48:08):
Because there's a surrender almost on her part too, right.
In that of I'm surrendering
some sort of
sense of pride or
appearance, you know, that I've got it all together.
>> Andy Root (48:25):
Yeah. That you might just think, here's a crazy woman who's just
telling me stuff she shouldn't.
>> Loren (48:29):
She has no idea who I am. And she's like, I could just. She could be
like, oh, this guy's gonna think I'm a nut job.
Um, yeah, I mean, again,
uh, certainly I feel like this is your book, the last
book. What, what? Secularism or.
>> Andy Root (48:43):
Yeah, the Church in the Age of Secular Mysticism.
>> Loren (48:46):
Yeah. Where you talk about.
>> Andy Root (48:47):
I can't believe I knew the title of it.
>> Loren (48:48):
I usually do not know the title, Confession and Surrender.
But yeah, there's so much, uh.
I feel like it's so transformative, these practices.
So I appreciate your work. I look forward. Do you want to tease,
like, because you got another one coming out with your wife, Right.
>> Andy Root (49:03):
Yeah, we have a book that's, uh, will be a little
bit lower shelf than my other books, which are filled
with so many footnotes because I'm addicted to footnotes. But,
uh, yeah, this is a one that's going to
explore, uh, kind of parenting and pastoring, and we
were just talking about uncontrollability. It will kind of look
at uncontrollability and, uh, a kind of
release of control and the thinking about
(49:25):
pilgrimage as a way to think about parenting
and, uh, leading the church. So, um, that
comes out In September.
>> Loren (49:33):
Well, I'm looking forward to it. My daughter is entering into
teenagehood this summer. You talk about
goodbyes and grief.
>> Andy Root (49:40):
Yeah.
>> Loren (49:41):
Uh, and anxiety. All
relevant. Well, anything else you want to say about where folks
can connect with you or anything else?
>> Andy Root (49:49):
Yeah, ah, people can just find me. I have a website that's just
andrew.org and, uh, people can find me
there. And, uh, yeah,
uh, you can always email me too. I don't know if you'd want to do
that, but you always can find me on the. You can find me on the
interwebs.
>> Loren (50:04):
All right. The book is Evangelism in the Age of
Despair. And, uh, give us the
subtitle.
>> Andy Root (50:11):
Subtitle again. I gotta turn around and hope.
>> Loren (50:14):
I'm trying to read it off my phone and find print.
>> Andy Root (50:16):
It is called Hope Beyond Failed Promise of
Happiness. That's it.
>> Loren (50:21):
And the COVID is just. Just super gloom.
So it really.
>> Andy Root (50:25):
It is. It's, uh, very rainy and, uh.
Yeah.
>> Loren (50:28):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. Really
appreciate the conversation and, uh, safe travels.
Leave you with the word of peace. May God's peace be with you.
>> Andy Root (50:38):
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on the podcast too.
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments and ideas for future
(50:58):
episodes. Visit our website
website@future-christian.com and find
the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page
to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before
you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD
to leave a review. It really helps us get this out
to more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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