March 4, 2025 • 60 mins
What is the church, and what is it for? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Rev. Dr. David Emerton to explore the purpose of the church, how different theological traditions define its role, and why these definitions matter for shaping the church’s future. David shares insights on why many churches are caught in cycles of inertia or panic in response to decline, how our implicit assumptions about the church shape ministry practices, and why understanding ecclesiology is essential for church leaders today. The conversation also touches on theological education, the role of tradition, and how the church can remain faithful in a changing world.
David Emerton (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is director of St. Mellitus College, East Midlands, United Kingdom. He previously served as principal of the School of Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell and Nottingham and as a teaching fellow in systematic and historical theology at the University of Aberdeen. David is ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior to his training for ordination he worked in the City of London as a solicitor. He is the author of God’s Church Community: The Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Types of Ecclesiology: Five Theological Approaches.
Relevant Links & Episodes
https://stmellitus.ac.uk/staff/david-emerton.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-emerton-950444159
Justin Anthony - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-cjrug-1541ed0
Alison Milbank - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-ggj6t-166b3b9
Natalie Wigg-Stevenson - https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-4e8jr-ef1bbc
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Future Christian Team:
Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer
Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host
Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer
Dennis Sanders – Producer
Alexander Lang - Production Assistant
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Paul (00:07):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Rev. Dr.
David Emerton to the program. David
is director of Saint Mellitus College,
East Midlands, United Kingdom. He
previously served as Principal of the School of
Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell
and Nottingham and as a Teaching Fellow in
(01:07):
Systematic and Historical Theology at the
University of Aberdeen. David is
ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior
to his training for ordination he worked in the
City of London as a solicitor. He is
the author of God's Church Community, the
Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
and Types of
(01:29):
Five Theological Approaches.
A, uh, reminder before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
an email at
laurensonatemediapro
(01:51):
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:10):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
welcoming the Reverend Dr. David Emerton.
Thank you so much for being here.
>> David (02:21):
Thank uh, you, uh, thank you for the invite. It's great to be with you
and uh, it's great to um, come along and
um, speak on your podcast.
>> Loren (02:29):
Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Well, let's take a
moment just to share a little bit about yourself. Anything else you
want our listeners to know about you.
>> David (02:39):
Um, well, um, um
I'm based in the uk um, I'm
currently um, uh the director
of ah, Civilitis Colleges Midlands, which is
a Church of England, um, theological
college or seminary. Um, you would probably describe it
as uh, over in the States. Um, so we
train men and women for ordained ministry but also
(03:01):
offer undergraduate and postgraduate uh,
programs of study in theology.
Um, before that uh, I worked
um, at a diocesan level, uh, within
uh, the Church of England and uh, before
that I spent a little bit of time up in Aberdeen
where I did some further study or My
(03:21):
doctorate study, um and also was a teaching fellow
there. Ah and ah a long time before
that ah I was involved in parish ah ministry
um in London and I
started out life really. Um, well I did start out life as
a corporate lawyer working in the
city of uh London. So um, my
(03:42):
background uh really isn't theology in
that sense in terms of how I started out life.
I um read history as ah an undergraduate at the University
of Edinburgh and then kind of passed through law
school uh on my way to um work
as a solicitor in uh central uh
London. Uh so that's just a little bit about really my
(04:02):
background uh to be honest with you.
>> Loren (04:04):
Well I'm uh grateful to have this conversation with you.
I often tell people one of my favorite things about doing
this podcast is I get to talk to folks I
uh would not ordinarily get to talk to in
life. So uh, you know it's really one of the
advantages of this current uh context.
All right, so let's uh share a few. Just what kind about your
(04:25):
background? Faith, uh journey. What faith looked like early
in life and then what it looks like today or early faith
looked like.
>> David (04:32):
Yeah so I'm the youngest of
three um uh children. I've uh got an older brother
and older sister. Uh we grew up uh in
uh the northwest of England,
um in a household where
um the Christian faith wasn't really
a day to day reality uh for us. We were
taken to church, um to the
(04:54):
local village, uh parish church, a tiny little parish
church in sort ah of rural um at uh
Cheshire in England. Um we'd
all been baptized as infants
interestingly uh and
we I guess came to faith um
myself but also my brother and sister slightly later on in
(05:15):
life. So I became a Christian or I would say I
became a Christian when I was 14
um quite strangely at a holiday club that the
local church was running for 5 to 11 year olds.
Um and um, I'd been kind of
persuaded to go along under slight duress
uh by my older brother. Uh but uh, it was
there really that I uh gave my life to
(05:37):
Christ uh I would say and ever since
really have been trying to learn what it means
to uh become a Christian. Um
uh, Eugene Peterson I guess has it right,
uh that discipleship is a long obedience in
the same direction and uh, I guess for me
Jesus is um that direction
(05:58):
uh to my life now. Uh and the one who I
endeavour to try and set sail towards daily,
uh so to speak. Um although some days
I'm uh more successful than
others. Uh but uh I guess following after
Jesus, uh, for me is what uh, my Christian faith means to
me. Um, following after Jesus, whatever and
to whatever and to wherever he might,
(06:20):
uh, call. Um, so that's probably
a little bit about a uh, simple
introduction to how I became a Christian.
Obviously, um, that's involved
many other things. Uh, the journey has been
m. Long ah since I was 14. I'm not that
old, uh, but uh. It has been a good few years, a
good few decades, um, in terms of trying to figure
(06:43):
out ah, what it does mean to follow um,
after Jesus and to uh, increasingly come
to bear his image.
>> Loren (06:51):
Well, in line with that quote you shared from Eugene
Peterson, that discipleship is long obedience
in the same direction. If I heard that right, I feel like you can always
count on Eugene Peterson for some great quotes like
that.
What is a spiritual discipline, uh, that helps you
maintain that long obedience?
>> David (07:10):
Then,
um. Oh man, there are probably
quite a few. But, um, I think probably top of my
list would be
um, uh,
walking the journey of Christian faith in the company of other
people, um, within the life of the local
church in that sense, ah, taking part in
(07:30):
the worshiping life of the local church, but also
um, being uh,
part of the community of God's people and allowing that
community to shape, um me,
um, to form me, uh, in various different
uh, ways. I guess over the years there have been sort of
countless, um,
(07:51):
uh, other Christians, uh, whether family or
friends, whether uh, staff at kind of
mission organizations or even in the theological
college that I now work for. Um,
my PhD supervisor, kind of other kind
of people I've come across in various different avenues.
My uh, spiritual director for example, today. But
(08:11):
uh, all of whom who have kind of uh. Shaped and
formed, encouraged and challenged, um,
and really kind of um.
Kept me going I suppose, and actually held
out, uh, to me, uh, the life of Jesus
Christ, um, and sort of
patterned something or witness um,
something in terms of what it means to uh, be a
(08:34):
disciple of Jesus.
>> Loren (08:35):
Well, David is the author of the new
book Types of Ecclesiology
Five Theological
Approaches, which we'll be talking about
here today.
And I suppose
I think I want to introduce this conversation in this
way. From my perspective,
(08:58):
at least here in the States and reading the
introduction and the early parts of your book, it really seems
like there's a similar challenge
happening in your neck of the
woods. There's a real question of what
is the church about? What's it for?
What purpose does it have? Moving forward,
(09:19):
I highlighted this quote from your introduction. You
write that the Church of England was largely content
to accept its prescribed status as nonessential
throughout the COVID 19 crisis. To
many outside the church, indeed to many inside the Church, this
appeared to be a rather disconcerting
disappearance of the church from UK national
life at a time when people were confronted by
(09:42):
the reality of death in an intensely
powerful way.
You have another quote here that I think again is relevant.
You write the marginalization of the slow and costly work of
theological education in the Church of England's life is
all the more baffling when what is perhaps most needed in the
Church today is theologically astute followers of
(10:03):
Jesus who can out narrate a sin
sick world. So there's a lot there to
unpack. But uh, I think one of the things that
struck me about your book and
about what you're trying to,
at least as I understand it, uh, trying to
tackle is that it's really something
that it seems like both in the
(10:25):
States, I know from my co host Martha in
Canada, maybe it's a
Western Christian thing about what is
the church. So I kind of gave you a lot here
to respond to. So feel free to kind of
to run with that.
>> David (10:43):
Um, yeah, so I guess
for me the sort of, I guess part of the inspiration or the
part of the reason um,
behind the book is uh,
uh, really as you've articulated this
question of what is the church, uh it
seems to me that in the Western
(11:05):
church in particular, uh, given its
decline, um, so often, uh, it
seems to me that the church, whether that is the Church of England or whether it
is uh, another church denomination within
the Western church, be it in the UK or in the
States, it seems to me that so often that the
response to that decline uh, can on
the one hand either be inertia, which would be
(11:27):
kind of the uh,
perhaps the response of the Church of England within the context of the
COVID 19 crisis, although
clearly they were examples of
great practice during that time as well.
Um, but then also perhaps uh, on the other
hand, uh, the response of
what um. Michael uh. Jenkins in a book
(11:49):
that he wrote, I think at the end of the 20th century called the
Church Faces Death, called the Hyperactivity of
Panic. So this idea that you
know, um, that in the
face of its kind of decline the Church kind
of uh, clutches for or
grasps after every sort of uh,
programmatic solution or structural reorganization,
(12:10):
which are Jenkins's uh, words into the
desperate hope that you know, its survival is just another
sort of project or organization or chart away as
he uh, puts it. And uh,
for me, I guess I See some of that
um, playing out or
um, the symptoms of
some of that sort of hyperactivity of panic playing out
(12:33):
in much of what is written about or
taught about the church uh today.
So uh, a lot of what is written about the church today or
taught about the church today is concerned with
this question, uh, not of what the church is,
but rather with the question of
how the church is uh, to be or what the
church is to do. Uh,
(12:56):
um, whether that's kind of focused on questions around
how the church is best to relate to a
post Christian secular culture, whether that's to do
with how the church relates to contemporary
ethical issues or how it's to practice worship or how
it's to engage in mission and evangelism.
But um, a lot of what is
(13:16):
spoken or taught about or written about the church today is
concerned with kind of what I would describe
more as matters of form and
practice of the church rather than actually
what the church is. And it seems to
me that you can't ask the how
question, uh, before you've
asked the what question.
(13:38):
Um, you know, you need to ask, I
think when it comes to thinking about
church, what the church is before you
then ask how we are to be the church.
And I guess part of me carries uh,
some kind of nagging fear that uh, a number of
people who are involved in some form or
another in church leadership, whether that's ordained church leadership
(14:01):
or non ordained church leadership, or even just
participating in the church, serving in the church in some form
or another, might struggle to kind of
articulate a uh, kind of theological response
to that question of what the church, uh,
is. And so the uh, book really
is, is designed to kind of
bring that question, um, or
(14:22):
to spotlight that question, um, above
everything else, uh, when it comes to uh, thinking
or speaking about uh, the church.
>> Loren (14:32):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm thinking
about other conversations that have been had on this
podcast my co host Martha had with Justin
Anthony who I think and Allison
Milbank, who I believe are both over in your neck of the
woods, uh, as part of the Church of England
and have similar observations,
(14:52):
critiques especially of the Church of
England. And I'm thinking also just
in my context,
mainline prostitism in the States. I
do wonder though, is this a
uniquely white Western
challenge?
>> David (15:11):
Um, I think it certainly,
I mean I obviously write in the context of the
Western church and obviously you
know, the uh, church is clearly not in decline in the
global south or um, uh, in the
majority world. Uh, and so ah, an
aspect of this uh, perhaps is, uh,
specifically related to the
(15:34):
Western church. And obviously that's kind of the church
that I'm kind of seeking to address it in the book itself.
And obviously the church of which I'm a part of and
seek to kind of love and serve in that
way. And so, um, it is
very much kind of focused in that, ah,
direction in terms of, um, the kind of
constructive kind of project that I'm trying to engage in.
>> Loren (15:56):
Yeah. Yeah, that's helpful. You know, I'm
also thinking, I often use this
story years ago when I was in a group,
independent, very conservative Baptist. And years
ago when I was in
Bible college,
uh, if a chapel speaker would get up and say, hey,
we need to share the gospel, or a bunch of guys would
(16:19):
get in the dorm, would get real excited and
let's go share the gospel of the neighborhood, we all knew
what we were doing. We all went
out knowing what we were talking about and sharing
with the neighbors. To me, it seems
like, and I'll change the analogy
here, it seems like similarly,
(16:39):
whether in mainline Protestantism, if we
expand that to perhaps here, neck of the woods in the
Church of England, when
folks say, let's go, we gotta whatever.
We gotta work for the church or grow the church or whatever the
church it seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I
feel like this is kind of what you're getting at in your book. There's no
(16:59):
real shared assumption or
understanding of what we mean by the church. Is that fair?
>> David (17:06):
Yeah, I think so. I think that's
probably fair. Um, I think
my underlying kind of, um. Or
the question really, um. Or the issue I'm
really kind of wanting to push is that,
um, before we ask questions
about how the church should worship
(17:26):
or how the church should
engage in mission or evangelism,
um, or how the church should relate to,
as I say, a post secular Christian, uh,
culture. Or a post Christian secular culture.
Sorry, um, There has to be some more
fundamental, um, uh,
thinking undertaken about what is this thing that we
(17:49):
label as the church.
Um, because so often what
we think about the church,
um, translates or whether
consciously or unconsciously into practice.
Um, and so what we do kind of
betrays something about what we think of this
thing called, uh, the church. And so I
(18:10):
guess my concern or my project really
is simply to try and
persuade people to spend
some time thinking about that what question before
moving too quickly into the
how or the do question, which often, uh,
translates directly into form and practice.
(18:31):
Now, don't get me wrong, matters of form and practice in the life of the church
are fundamental and important.
>> Loren (18:36):
Right.
>> David (18:36):
But to me, they can only follow on
from some kind of, uh,
articulation of what the church is in and of
itself. And I guess for me, the other thing that I might
have in mind is,
um, you know, clearly
across denominations, but also, uh,
within denominations, you will get at
(18:57):
multiple different answers potentially, and
multiple different emphases to this question, even
of, um, perhaps even what the
church is. But, uh, I guess one of my questions
is really to try and ask, well, can we get to a level of
thinking about what the church is? An agreed level of thinking about
what the church is that might cut across some
(19:17):
of the, um, denominational kind of
divisions.
>> Loren (19:21):
Ah.
>> David (19:22):
When a lot of those denominational divisions, not all of them, but a lot of
them, uh, are focused, uh, around
matters of form, practice and
policy.
>> Loren (19:31):
In that sense, I'm really again
thinking about how. What you said about the responses to
decline, you know, when it's inertia or
panic, that kind of
hyperactive panic, like you said, when
we're thinking about what to do rather than why we should,
or, you know, the.
The what rather than the why, I suppose really
(19:53):
can put the cart before the horse, so
to speak. Right.
>> David (19:58):
Yeah. And that's basically my concern.
The focus on, um,
how we should be doing church
puts the cart, uh, before the
horse. Um, the primary
ecclesiological question, or the primary question I would
say that we need to be asking when we come to think about the
(20:19):
church, um, is the question of what the
church is, uh, most kind of
fundamentally. And yes, there will be kind of nuances
of emphasis around that question, but is there
something, uh, that we can get at,
um, which uh, kind of shapes,
uh, and guides therefore, um,
matters of form and practice, which
(20:41):
effectively would help the church in some small
way, uh, to live and act
in the world in ways that are more and
ever more faithful to its own true being.
>> Loren (20:53):
Let's do this and let's have you share, if you would, just
briefly, about the four.
The four kind of,
can't say the word, ecclesiological
frameworks. I told you I'm sick, so I
got junk in the throat that's making things worse.
Share those four frameworks, if you would.
>> David (21:13):
Yeah. So I guess in response to this,
or wanting to kind of foreground, I guess, this question of
what is, uh, uh, the church.
Um, the way I go about, uh, seeking to kind of
foreground that question in uh, the book is
to, uh, offer what I describe as a
typology of contemporary approaches
(21:34):
to Ecclesiology. And that typology
has um. Uh. Or is made up of
five different types of theological uh.
Approach to going about addressing uh.
This question of um. What the church is or thinking
about uh. The church in that
sense, uh theologically. And so,
um. The uh. Typology in and of itself
(21:57):
is kind of offered in one sense
as a uh. Constructive orientation
to the field of ah. Contemporary ecclesiological thought.
So um. If you're
someone who's uh. Studying ecclesiology, uh at
some point, whether that's in seminary or an
uh. Undergraduate or even postgraduate level or if
(22:17):
you're a church pastor wanting to think about
um. The church theologically,
then it's really offered that typology in one sense
as kind of an orientation to
numerous kind of sort of debates and emphases
uh. In sort of contemporary ecclesiological uh.
Scholarship. But of
the kind of types themselves.
(22:40):
Um. Um. I begin
by um. Uh. Unpacking kind of
four different types uh of
approach. Uh the first type of approach, uh.
Is something that I call empirical
ecclesiology. And
um. All of these approaches I should say
are really uh. Related
(23:01):
uh to uh. The question of how
um. God's action or divine
agency and human action or human
agency relate in the life of
uh. The church. And
um. Uh. I kind of
set out at ah. These different types of approach or
I draw them out in terms of their relative
(23:24):
emphases on divine and
human action in relation to ah. The
church itself. So uh. In the first type, as
I say, empirical ecclesiology, uh. I suggest that in
empirical ecclesiology, um. The real
emphasis, um. In this question about what
the church is. The real emphasis falls on what humans
do in the life of the
(23:46):
church. So the church essentially in
empirical ecclesiology is what humans do. And
therefore in um ah.
Theologians who kind of uh. I read as
offering or falling into this type of approach.
An account of human agency is really
the most important thing that they're wanting to
(24:07):
uh. Address. Uh. So that's really the first
um type. And obviously
um. Uh. There is
um. Something ah. Really quite vital and
strong in that approach. Because on the one hand the church is
a human community. You know, it's important that we
understand the church in that way and therefore study
the church as an empirical human community. Uh.
(24:30):
But that's the first uh. Type. The second type
is something I call performative
ecclesiology. Uh
and uh. Performative ecclesiology,
uh. Is um. Kind of
attentive if you like to some of the moves that
empirical ecclesiology uh wants to make.
But primarily in performative ecclesiology there's a
(24:51):
desire to offer ah, an account of
God's action, um in
addition to the account of human uh,
action. Performative ecclesiology.
Um, uh. Also um
uh. For the way that I read it and construct it,
it really does relate to kind of um
uh. Understanding the Church in terms of its practices, in terms
(25:14):
of lived ecclesial life and human
uh, practice. So in some
sense it's close or a close cousin but
slightly distinct in a way to the
first type of approach.
Um. The third type. Third type is something
I call communion ecclesiology which
kind of um,
(25:36):
approaches this uh, question of what the Church
is not on the sort of front footing of
human agency or the action of humans, but more
squarely on the action of God or divine
agency. Um, but the way in which it then
works that out is in relation
to um, God's own triune life
as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh, and specifically by
(25:58):
indexing God's work or divine agency in the life of
the church to the site of uh, the
Eucharist in some form or uh,
another. And um, then type
four, um is uh, I
guess a kind of slightly more extreme version
you might say of an approach or an account
of the Church that kind of has its front foot
(26:21):
on the action of God and divine ah,
agency. Um, and uh.
In that fourth type, uh, I call that fourth type
ideal ecclesiology. And in that type the
Church essentially is what ah, God does,
um. And um.
Therefore kind of the kind of
questions or the critique that I pose in relation to
(26:44):
ideal ecclesiology is the extent to which
ah, an ideal approach to ecclesiology
marginalizes or um,
dissolves in some form or another, um, the
Church's actual human empirical form as
a community of people.
>> Loren (27:02):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
So for our listeners and this is
helpful in your book, you have kind of a layout of
sort of I suppose on like a spectrum.
>> David (27:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (27:13):
And on one side with the
empirical. Right. It's human agency is kind of at
the far end. The emphasis is on human agency. Then if
I'm understanding correctly, at the other opposite end,
the ideal ecclesiology or divine agency
is kind of at the strong emphasis
and there's some overlap obviously in all
these. I'm wondering, I don't know if you're familiar
(27:36):
with. I'm thinking of um. I
don't know if you're familiar with Nandra Root's work, but I'm thinking of
his pyramid in. I think it's the
Church in the age of secular mysticism. Are you familiar with that
book or his pyramid there?
>> David (27:51):
I'm not familiar with that specific book. I'm
vague, sort of broadly aware of Nandra
Wirt's work. But I'm not particularly familiar with
that pyramid. Uh, so I don't know whether you want to kind of.
>> Loren (28:03):
Okay, then maybe go with it. Yeah, maybe
that won't work, but I'm thinking. I guess I'll generalize the
question then a little bit more.
Certainly Nandra Root explores, kind
of based on Charles Taylor and the idea of the
secular age. Um, it seems
like if we had a lump sum here,
(28:23):
we've moved broadly speaking Western Christianity into
this more to use
your words I suppose, empirical or performative
take on church as human
agency. Is that a fair assessment do you think?
>> David (28:41):
Um, I think uh. Whether it's
specifically uh. Tied to
um, sort of the um.
Diagnosis of kind of at the secular age
that Charles Taylor offers in his
work. Um. I think there is definitely a sense
in kind of contemporary
ecclesiology or in the study of the church
(29:02):
in a more contemporary period where uh.
The emphasis uh more heavily is certainly
on um, the church as a human
community that if you want to know what the church is
then the first thing you have to do is to study this human
community. Uh, almost um. You
know, drawing on the fruits of the social sciences
or um. Empirical study or
(29:24):
ethnography and using those
um. Uh. Non theological
disciplines you might say to kind of
understand the church as a human community. Then almost kind of
theologising um about what the
church is out of that kind of
empirical uh study. And that's certainly
probably uh today in the world of contemporary
(29:46):
ecclesiological thought, um
where uh. More often than not the
emphasis is placed in terms of when we come to
thinking about what the church is. Um
now you know, you can trace some uh, of
that emphasis um through uh. Various
different kind of moves if you like within ecclesiology.
There's uh, something uh, fairly recently
(30:09):
in the 21st century, um called the
ethnographic turn. Uh, in
ecclesiology again is this turn
towards empirical study and the fruits of empirical
study. Um, I mean that in and of itself
might be seen as um. Dependent upon
sort of a broader turn in theology towards
culture. And that
(30:31):
obviously has perhaps its roots if uh. You trace
it, keep on tracing back in certain
aspects of liberation theology. And so the
idea that actually theology is a reflexive
act, that actually theology arises
from um. The ground, from the root upwards
so to speak, and you theologize out of
(30:52):
people's um. Experience on the
ground.
So I guess that the tension that I'm trying to
think uh, about in the context of this book is
uh. Where do you start your thinking about the church?
Do you start your thinking about the church on the
ground, um, and think sort
of bottom up, so to speak, or do you
(31:13):
think about the church top down, you know,
from within, if you like the doctrine of God or from the
perspective of the doctrine of God, from the inner life of God and
work your way out towards the human
community. And obviously where you start
your kind of thinking about the church obviously
has implications, um, for uh,
(31:34):
where you uh, then go and the type of
content that you end up sort of working
out, uh, in that thinking about what the Church
is.
>> Loren (31:46):
Now in my understanding correctly, that
you're advocating for kind of a middle ground
or a tension between the two. Um. Is that accurate?
>> David (31:55):
Yeah. So I mean the
book sets out these first sort of four
types of approaches. And as you say,
um, they do revolve, if you like, around the
relationship between human agency and divine agency.
With empirical ecclesiology squarely on the side of
human agency, ideal ecclesiology squarely on the
side, sort of a divine agency and then performative
(32:18):
and communion ecclesiology kind of in the
middle, uh, of the sort of opposite poles, uh
so to speak. Um, but obviously with some overlap
between all of them.
Um.
>> Loren (32:30):
Uh.
>> David (32:31):
Where the book kind of goes to
is uh. To suggest
a fifth type of approach. Which is
something that I call ecclesiological
ecclesiology. And uh.
Really, um. What I'm trying to tease out in that
chapter is, is. Well, you know, having
surveyed or having constructed these
(32:52):
four different types of approach, having
identified uh, their
strengths, their weaknesses, uh, from a theological
perspective, is there a way to begin to think about
how you might address,
um, in speech about the Church,
um, some of those theological deficiencies,
um. Ah. That are apparent in those other four, uh.
(33:14):
Types. And uh. To make that
move, I, um. Go to the third
article of the Creed, um, I uh,
go to an account of uh. The personal
work of God, the Holy Spirit, as ah,
a way really to
um.
Think along with
um. A couple of other theologians, a couple
(33:37):
of other ecclesiological thinkers, how
an emphasis on ah, the work of the Holy
Spirit and an emphasis on pneumatology in that sense as
a doctrine in ecclesiology might help us
to think, um, divine and human
agency together in a more helpful and
constructive way, which not only allows you
to hold um, on to the fact and to
(34:00):
emphasize and to speak about the church as
a human community. Well, uh, but
also, uh, to relativize that
speech, um, by an appropriate emphasis
on God's own action, basically.
>> Loren (34:17):
This conversation is very theoretical.
You mentioned you work at a seminary, or as
we might call it, a seminary.
And I want to think, as this is a podcast that really
does want to help pastors and church leaders,
I want to bring this more practical, this
conversation. And I think
(34:37):
about this tension, as
I'm understanding it, between
the pull to make church all about
human effort is the word I'll use
versus that. Opposite tension or opposite
extreme, I suppose, of just kind of like let go and
let God would be a phrase.
(34:59):
How do you advise, you know,
how do you advise pastors, church leaders? I mean, this is,
as you alluded to, this is something it seems
like you're wrestling with. You think the Church of England is wrestling
with about what is adequate training
for church leaders. I mean, you talked about the. In
your book Church of England, sending out, like, kind of lay leaders
(35:19):
to start churches. Talk more about
that.
>> David (35:24):
Um. Uh, so, I mean, I guess
in terms of the sort of. The types of approach itself.
So I mean, let's just run on a sort of a
practical level with, um. I don't know. Uh, you
may, you know, cash out, for example, an ideal
approach to ecclesiology that you might think, okay, well,
here's a theologian talking about the church in. In
(35:45):
these terms, uh, in a very kind
of, um, theoretical or, uh,
systematic or doctrinal way, almost.
Um, but that doesn't equate or that doesn't
relate to the church down the road that I go to. You
know, that church is
broken, it's marred, it's
(36:05):
scarred, um, by, um, you know,
human sin, by matters of
race, ableism, um,
or sexism or whatever it might be.
Um.
>> Loren (36:19):
Uh-huh.
>> David (36:19):
And so the emphasis on, I guess, you
know, drawing out from empirical ecclesiology would be to
say, well, what is the space in your church
community, uh, for the reality of human
sin, for the reality of
broken lives, or is actually what
people experience in the context of your
local church, um, almost
(36:42):
like an unattainable ideal when it comes
to church life or living the Christian
life? Almost? Um, is everything
so perfect, in other words, uh,
presentationally or not, as the case may
be, for, uh, people actually to engage, uh,
with. Uh. So I guess that's kind of one of the
questions.
Obviously, there are other questions in terms of, you know, you've taken the
(37:04):
emphasis on communion, ecclesiology, for example. You
know, what role does the Eucharist
or Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper play in the worshiping life
of your church. You know, for some
theologians, as I sort of, uh, articulate in the course of
that chapter on communion ecclesiology, the church is
most herself in that kind of moment of
celebrating the uh, Eucharist of
(37:27):
breaking bread and wine outpoured. Um, so I
guess one of the challenges there is if the
Eucharist somehow is constitutive of what the
church is,
um, where is it
in the life of your church? To what extent does your
worshiping life kind of reflect that? And uh. So there
are all the sorts of these kind of, um, practical
(37:48):
questions, I guess, that kind of flow
from, um. Ah, some of these different
types of, uh, approach.
And uh, for me, I guess one of the questions is
often, uh, for church pastors or church leaders, whether
ordained or not, um, often the churches
that they. Or we seek to lead and grow,
(38:08):
um, whether we realize it or
not, will take on a kind of former
practice,
um, in a way which kind of
betrays what you actually think the church
is. So you might not actually think
the church is constituted at all, uh,
by broken bread and wine
outpoured. And therefore you may well end up leading a church
(38:31):
where actually you don't think the celebration of the Eucharist is that
important. Um, so there are
all of these different emphases which
I guess come out and might play out on a practical
level, um, which,
um. I would want kind of, uh.
Those leading local churches to kind of, uh,
wrestle with or think through, or at least think
(38:53):
through the sort of the implications of why they're doing
what they're doing and what does that actually
communicate in terms of what they think or believe?
Um, the church, uh, is.
Um. So I mean, if
the church is just a human community
and somehow is just this group of
(39:14):
people kind of gathering together,
then why is it important that
the way they live is more countercultural
than culturally relevant, so to
speak? Um,
or if,
um, the church is constituted in
its. Or by its practice. Does
(39:36):
doctrinal belief matters in that sense?
>> Loren (39:42):
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the
book is you kind of really play out kind of the
logical implications
of these concepts.
I do want to again drill down even
more. Practically speaking, again, as I'm thinking about,
at least here in the States. And uh, it sounds like
(40:03):
they're similar challenges
over there where you are. Where,
at least in my context,
there's continued decline
of church budgets and
resources. I just had a conversation
with a middle adjudicatory leader about
(40:25):
bivocationality as the term we use here in the
States, being the future,
I'm fortunate that I think in my
seminary that I graduate from is fortunate to have
very, uh. Seems like a very good financial
foundation to draw from. But even then I wonder
how much can students continually,
(40:46):
even how much will there be
a future for theological education at least
like the classic M. Div?
What do you think about balancing this tension of again
like a, uh, well educated, theologically
educated clergy versus the
very real implications
(41:07):
and challenges of, I suppose, the
modern economy?
>> David (41:11):
Yeah, it's a great question and
I, uh, guess.
>> Loren (41:14):
And how does it affect ecclesiology? I guess lived out.
>> David (41:17):
Yeah. Uh, and I guess
one of the issues that your question raises is when we
talk about theological training
of future church leaders or even current
church leaders, what do we mean by that? Um,
are we just talking about theoretical
theological education or are we
actually, uh, talking about
(41:38):
um, uh, training in a much more holistic way
which does actually draw on
questions, um, of um,
aspects of leadership training or
how you kind of lead a meeting or
fundraise, um, or engage with social
media and all of these different things. And
(42:01):
I guess I'm part of a
theological college or seminary in the States where ah, all
of our, um, students, uh, who are
training for ordained ministry are also, at the same time
as they're doing their formal theological
study, are also engaged in practical mission and
ministry in local churches. And so they're doing the two things
(42:21):
together. Um, so they're speaking to
one another, um, right from the get go.
And obviously, yes, today seminary training has to
be much broader than just your
classical kind of M. Div. Training, uh, because
obviously clergy today on the ground have to deal
with, and church pastors have to deal with multiple
different things. They are
(42:43):
asked to do many, many different things in the
context of leading churches, which, uh, perhaps
historically seminary, uh, training hasn't equipped
them well for.
>> Loren (42:56):
Yeah, Let me do one more question here before
we take a break.
When we think about pastors and
church leaders on the ground leading their
churches, how would
you advise them to maybe be
cognizant of or begin a dialogue
maybe within themselves, within their leadership, even
(43:17):
within the broader church, about how
their perhaps implicit understanding
of church ecclesiology is shaping
their church actions and how
maybe they might want to
solicit, bring change in their congregation?
>> David (43:36):
Sorry, can you just repeat that question? You kind of broke up a little
bit.
>> Loren (43:39):
Yeah, sure. Just when we think about pastors
and church leaders thinking
about how would you advise Them to begin within
themselves, within their congregation,
formulating, forming conversations around
what kind of ecclesiological
approach they take currently and how, if they want
(44:00):
to shift or bring a different kind of approach,
how they might do that.
>> David (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I
guess I would start with some really
quite uh, basic questions, sorry,
between uh, you and your
congregation. So, um,
what do you think the Church is?
What is the Church for? What is the Church's
purpose? Um, uh,
(44:27):
and once you begin to tease out some of those
questions, uh, that then may lead you
in a different direction. So is the
Church simply, um, to
serve those who are already members of
it? For example, um, there was a
previous Archbishop of Canterbury, um, who a long time
ago said that um, the Church is
(44:49):
the only non cooperative society, uh, that
exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members
of it. Um, and
so asking some basic questions
around what you think the Church is, uh,
what is the Church for and what is its purpose
might um, then begin to help you tease out
(45:10):
what it is you think you're doing or why you're
doing it at, ah, when you come together as the
Church.
And I think, you know, tying this back
to um, uh, the sort of
fifth theological approach that I identify in the book as
ecclesiological ecclesiology, one of the kind of
focuses, uh, there is this idea
(45:31):
of um, you know, the purpose of
the Church or the Church exists not for the sake of itself.
Right. The Church exists for the sake of the world.
And so how does your gathered
church, or how does your Church as uh, the gathered
people of God in its own uh, life
express the fact, uh, that
(45:53):
its identity is ultimately in
its outward looking missional focus and
purpose. So I guess I would be encouraging
people to start with some very basic questions. What
is the Church or what do you think the Church
is? What do you think the Church's purpose
is? What do you think the Church is for?
Um, how do you think about the fact that
(46:17):
we declare in the Creed that the Church is
holy and yet it is
broken and sinful? Or how
do you think about the fact that the Church is one, as
we declare in the Creed, and yet the
Church is divided? Um, and
then begin to tease out some of those things from there.
(46:37):
Where people are at. Basically you've got to start where people are
at.
>> Loren (46:42):
Yeah, these are important questions because I'm thinking
even just these three questions, the responses
to these will greatly shape the real
practical, lived out experience of
what the Church looks like. Whether it's
more of a very missional type
outreach Centered community, very much a worshiping
(47:02):
community. Um, yeah, this is. I
wish.
>> David (47:07):
So I guess one of the questions is, you know, when you
know, is the church there to serve you?
Is the church there to serve your needs,
to give you your kind of spiritual
fix?
>> Loren (47:19):
Yeah.
>> David (47:20):
Sunday by Sunday, or whatever day of the week it is that you
gather so that you can then engage in the world
or so happening. How do you perceive, you know,
do you think the church is there to serve you? Are you simply a
consumer of what the church offers
you? Or is something deeper and something else going on
here? When we come to think about what the church
is, and therefore how we, as the
(47:42):
disciples of Christ, are to engage in
the church that is Christ's.
>> Loren (47:46):
Body, I'm reminded, I don't know if
you've heard this term before. I mean, it goes back to
something even from my conservative Baptist days, of
this disagreement that we're talking about, like, is the
church a hospital? Is the church,
um. You know, I can't remember the other word. Like, is the church
a hospital for the world? Is it a
HAAS or a safe space, a
(48:09):
hotel? Or for, you know, for believers, is it a.
Is it a mission organization? So I think it's. This is a question
that, uh, believers and Christians,
it seems like across the spectrum are wrestling
with.
Well, the book is. I'm going to find the title again.
5 the Types of Ecclesiology, 5
Theological Approaches by David Emerton.
(48:32):
Let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with the Reverend Dr. David
Emerton. So thank you for your time. Really appreciating
having this conversation with you.
Uh, some closing questions that we tell folks you can take as
seriously or not as you'd like to.
(48:53):
If you're a Pope for a day, what might that day look
like for you? What do you want to do anything like that?
>> David (48:59):
If I was Pope for the day, uh,
what would I do? Uh, that's a great
question. Um.
Um,
on a less than serious note, probably, uh, find someone
to find me and bring me the best Italian
espresso that you can lay your hands on.
(49:20):
Um, but, um. But what would I do
if I was Pope for the day? I don't know. I think. Well,
I, uh. Probably to use the opportunity,
um, to tell
the world in whatever way I could do that
following, um, after Jesus really is the best thing that
anyone can ever do with their life.
>> Loren (49:39):
Yeah.
>> David (49:40):
Um. Um, that.
That, you know, it's not an easy or straightforward
path, and sometimes it's A very costly path, but, but
it is certainly a path that
um, along which
kind of real life or resurrection life comes to
us, uh, through the Spirit.
Um, I guess, um,
(50:02):
I might also kind of use it as an
opportunity to tell the church
or those who belong to the church
that um, wrestling or
taking time to wrestle with why we
believe what we believe as Christians, uh, whether it's
about the church or whether it's about the gospel. More
(50:22):
fundamentally, taking some time
to study a bit of theology at whatever
level, uh, will enlarge certainly your love for
God, your love for the church, but also your love
for um, uh, the world.
Uh, and I guess going back
to the quote that you picked up on from the
introduction of the book, I
(50:44):
do wholeheartedly believe that what
is perhaps most needed in the church today is as I say,
theologically astute followers of Jesus who
can out narrate a sin sick
world. Uh, and so perhaps if I was pope for the
day, I'd take the opportunity to get up on my
soapbox and um, say that a bit more
loudly.
>> Loren (51:05):
Yeah, well, I like the uh. This
is pretty unique answer. I don't know how much folks who
have talked both sides of I want to do something
fun like get a great espresso and then I want to speak to the
world. So that's good.
Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life.
>> David (51:25):
Oh, wow. Um, well, I guess
on one hand probably, um, if
my students are listening to this, they're
probably expecting um, me at this point to say
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, um, the 20th century
German theologian and church pastor who was
martyred, um, uh, by
(51:46):
uh, the Nazis, uh, primarily because
he was the focus of my uh, PhD research.
And I, uh, still kind of teach and do quite a little
bit of work around his theological thinking in his
life. And um. But I'm not going to give
you the obvious answer, uh, that uh, people would expect
and I'm going to say I think probably I'd
(52:06):
quite like to have a conversation or bring back Thomas
Aquinas.
>> Loren (52:10):
Okay.
>> David (52:11):
Um, and why do
I say that? Um, well, I don't know whether you know
anything about Thomas Aquinas, uh, but uh, for me
his life story is pretty interesting.
Um, there's ah, that kind of moment,
um, when his brothers, on hearing that Thomas
was planning to kind of begin a new life of sanctity
as um, a Dominican friar and follow after
(52:34):
God's call in his life, that his brothers kind of
go so far as to lock him up. In a room and
um, stick uh, a prostitute in his room to try and tempt
him away from his life of intended
sanctity. And uh, legend has it that
Thomas uh, responded to this temptation by
chasing the uh, prostitute out of his rooms with a
log that he picks up from the fire
(52:56):
in uh, the corner. But he's got a pretty uh,
interesting uh, life story. But I think
personally at the moment I'm, I'm really quite fascinated to be
honest, in the way that Thomas approaches his study of
theology. Um, and I guess I see
this um, sort of in evidence, I guess
in his really ah, famous work the Summer
(53:16):
Theologica. And the way that he kind of
works how I would see it kind of
charitably, um, graciously
and plausibly if you like, uh, to think himself
into the shoes of those people that he ultimately
goes on to dispute with in the context
of his theological thinking. And so
I guess I'd love to talk to him a little bit about
(53:38):
um, how he
sees the work and task of
uh, theology around this idea that
theology and the study of theology is this kind of
um, uh,
deep and sustained act not only of
listening, uh, well, to the thoughts and thinking of other
people, but kind of doing the hard work
(54:00):
to kind of think yourself into their shoes
so that you can then respond to their thinking graciously
and charitably, uh, with skill, even if
you go on to ultimately disagree uh,
with them. And I'd uh, love to pick Thomas's
brains uh, if he was alive because I
think there's much that the modern day church or the contemporary
(54:21):
church, uh, could learn from Thomas in terms
of um, about the sort of the
nature of theological debate almost
um, about the nature of theological disagreement.
Um, you know, whatever else Thomas is doing. This is
certainly not kind of sound, biting, it's certainly not
um, 140 characters, um,
(54:41):
on a platform formerly known as Twitter.
This is kind of careful, sustained listening
to one another. Um, and so I'd love
to kind of pick his brains a little bit about that,
about how he sees almost the work of theology
and the way it's to be done kind of humbly and prayerfully
and generously in that sense. So Thomas
(55:02):
Aquinas. There you go.
>> Loren (55:04):
Yeah, that's good.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> David (55:09):
Oh, uh, crumbs. What will history
remember from our current time and place?
>> Loren (55:17):
Um, this
is a big hour since we are recording across the
ocean here.
>> David (55:25):
Um,
I mean I
honestly am not sure what history will remember
from this Time and season that we're in at the
moment, um, probably the development of
AI, um, and
whether if that progresses in the
(55:47):
way it seems to be progressing,
um, ah, whether people will love
us for it or completely ru us or
hate us for it,
um, I imagine,
you know, our relation to
the created world,
what we actually ah, leave future
(56:08):
generations. Um, I
would hope that people
would um,
reflect quite critically on um,
certain political movements and
um, certain trends and emphases in,
in politics and in uh, the life of
(56:29):
today's society. Whether you're kind of this side of the
pond or your side of the pond.
Um, but, um. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say,
isn't it? Um, I mean, I hope. What I really hope and
pray, what history will remember from this
current time and place is that,
um, the church was faithful to
the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Um,
(56:52):
but
that's um, a challenging thing at the moment.
>> Loren (56:58):
Well, that is kind of the last question we always ask
folks, and it's a related question. What are your hopes
for the future of Christianity? Would that be your hope then?
That the church was faithful?
>> David (57:10):
Um,
yeah, I guess my hope for the future of
Christianity and, and sort of the church
would be that, um,
we as individual Christians,
but we as the church
corporate, um, I guess might
(57:30):
come to express ever more faithfully, both in
form and practice, in word and deed, uh,
the conviction that Christ alone
is our hope. Um,
and. And thereby kind of recover, I guess,
a courageous confidence, uh, in the
truth of God's gospel,
um, both internally within the life of the church, but
(57:53):
also externally out in the public square
in the life of, um, the
world, um, that we would be known
more for the name of Jesus than
abuse scandals or,
um, being quiet
or irrelevant.
>> Loren (58:12):
Yeah. Well, I really
appreciate this conversation, really encourage folks to check
out, um, the book and your work.
Do you have folks, do you have a way for folks to connect with
you, um, website, anything?
>> David (58:27):
I don't have a personal website. Um, the, uh,
best way to connect with me, uh, is I have a LinkedIn
account. People, uh, can find me on LinkedIn.
Um, otherwise, uh, I'm not on social media,
um, which in today's world,
um, you know, perhaps it's not the best way
to further uh, your own career. But there we
go. I have my reasons, ah, for that.
(58:50):
Um, but otherwise you can find me through,
um, my theological college's
website, uh, which is Summer Litus
College. So if people Google Summerlitus
College, that's N, E L L I T U
S Mellitus um, you can
find me through that, um, and you can obviously
then contact me by email, uh, through that, uh,
(59:12):
forum as well.
>> Loren (59:14):
Well, thank you so much for your conversation. I, uh, always
leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with
you.
>> David (59:20):
And be upon you, too.
>> Loren Richmond (59:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to
get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you
(59:51):
go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to
leave a review. It really helps us get this out to
more people. Thanks and go in peace.
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether
(00:27):
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
of your faith community, this podcast is
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
>> Martha Tatarnic (00:44):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Rev. Dr.
David Emerton to the program. David
is director of Saint Mellitus College,
East Midlands, United Kingdom. He
previously served as Principal of the School of
Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell
and Nottingham and as a Teaching Fellow in
(01:07):
Systematic and Historical Theology at the
University of Aberdeen. David is
ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior
to his training for ordination he worked in the
City of London as a solicitor. He is
the author of God's Church Community, the
Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
and Types of
(01:29):
Five Theological Approaches.
A, uh, reminder before we start today's conversation,
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
leave a review and share Future Christian with a
friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and
Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us
an email at
laurensonatemediapro
(01:51):
with comments, questions or ideas for future
episodes. We appreciate your voice
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
church.
>> Loren (02:10):
Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
welcoming the Reverend Dr. David Emerton.
Thank you so much for being here.
>> David (02:21):
Thank uh, you, uh, thank you for the invite. It's great to be with you
and uh, it's great to um, come along and
um, speak on your podcast.
>> Loren (02:29):
Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Well, let's take a
moment just to share a little bit about yourself. Anything else you
want our listeners to know about you.
>> David (02:39):
Um, well, um, um
I'm based in the uk um, I'm
currently um, uh the director
of ah, Civilitis Colleges Midlands, which is
a Church of England, um, theological
college or seminary. Um, you would probably describe it
as uh, over in the States. Um, so we
train men and women for ordained ministry but also
(03:01):
offer undergraduate and postgraduate uh,
programs of study in theology.
Um, before that uh, I worked
um, at a diocesan level, uh, within
uh, the Church of England and uh, before
that I spent a little bit of time up in Aberdeen
where I did some further study or My
(03:21):
doctorate study, um and also was a teaching fellow
there. Ah and ah a long time before
that ah I was involved in parish ah ministry
um in London and I
started out life really. Um, well I did start out life as
a corporate lawyer working in the
city of uh London. So um, my
(03:42):
background uh really isn't theology in
that sense in terms of how I started out life.
I um read history as ah an undergraduate at the University
of Edinburgh and then kind of passed through law
school uh on my way to um work
as a solicitor in uh central uh
London. Uh so that's just a little bit about really my
(04:02):
background uh to be honest with you.
>> Loren (04:04):
Well I'm uh grateful to have this conversation with you.
I often tell people one of my favorite things about doing
this podcast is I get to talk to folks I
uh would not ordinarily get to talk to in
life. So uh, you know it's really one of the
advantages of this current uh context.
All right, so let's uh share a few. Just what kind about your
(04:25):
background? Faith, uh journey. What faith looked like early
in life and then what it looks like today or early faith
looked like.
>> David (04:32):
Yeah so I'm the youngest of
three um uh children. I've uh got an older brother
and older sister. Uh we grew up uh in
uh the northwest of England,
um in a household where
um the Christian faith wasn't really
a day to day reality uh for us. We were
taken to church, um to the
(04:54):
local village, uh parish church, a tiny little parish
church in sort ah of rural um at uh
Cheshire in England. Um we'd
all been baptized as infants
interestingly uh and
we I guess came to faith um
myself but also my brother and sister slightly later on in
(05:15):
life. So I became a Christian or I would say I
became a Christian when I was 14
um quite strangely at a holiday club that the
local church was running for 5 to 11 year olds.
Um and um, I'd been kind of
persuaded to go along under slight duress
uh by my older brother. Uh but uh, it was
there really that I uh gave my life to
(05:37):
Christ uh I would say and ever since
really have been trying to learn what it means
to uh become a Christian. Um
uh, Eugene Peterson I guess has it right,
uh that discipleship is a long obedience in
the same direction and uh, I guess for me
Jesus is um that direction
(05:58):
uh to my life now. Uh and the one who I
endeavour to try and set sail towards daily,
uh so to speak. Um although some days
I'm uh more successful than
others. Uh but uh I guess following after
Jesus, uh, for me is what uh, my Christian faith means to
me. Um, following after Jesus, whatever and
to whatever and to wherever he might,
(06:20):
uh, call. Um, so that's probably
a little bit about a uh, simple
introduction to how I became a Christian.
Obviously, um, that's involved
many other things. Uh, the journey has been
m. Long ah since I was 14. I'm not that
old, uh, but uh. It has been a good few years, a
good few decades, um, in terms of trying to figure
(06:43):
out ah, what it does mean to follow um,
after Jesus and to uh, increasingly come
to bear his image.
>> Loren (06:51):
Well, in line with that quote you shared from Eugene
Peterson, that discipleship is long obedience
in the same direction. If I heard that right, I feel like you can always
count on Eugene Peterson for some great quotes like
that.
What is a spiritual discipline, uh, that helps you
maintain that long obedience?
>> David (07:10):
Then,
um. Oh man, there are probably
quite a few. But, um, I think probably top of my
list would be
um, uh,
walking the journey of Christian faith in the company of other
people, um, within the life of the local
church in that sense, ah, taking part in
(07:30):
the worshiping life of the local church, but also
um, being uh,
part of the community of God's people and allowing that
community to shape, um me,
um, to form me, uh, in various different
uh, ways. I guess over the years there have been sort of
countless, um,
(07:51):
uh, other Christians, uh, whether family or
friends, whether uh, staff at kind of
mission organizations or even in the theological
college that I now work for. Um,
my PhD supervisor, kind of other kind
of people I've come across in various different avenues.
My uh, spiritual director for example, today. But
(08:11):
uh, all of whom who have kind of uh. Shaped and
formed, encouraged and challenged, um,
and really kind of um.
Kept me going I suppose, and actually held
out, uh, to me, uh, the life of Jesus
Christ, um, and sort of
patterned something or witness um,
something in terms of what it means to uh, be a
(08:34):
disciple of Jesus.
>> Loren (08:35):
Well, David is the author of the new
book Types of Ecclesiology
Five Theological
Approaches, which we'll be talking about
here today.
And I suppose
I think I want to introduce this conversation in this
way. From my perspective,
(08:58):
at least here in the States and reading the
introduction and the early parts of your book, it really seems
like there's a similar challenge
happening in your neck of the
woods. There's a real question of what
is the church about? What's it for?
What purpose does it have? Moving forward,
(09:19):
I highlighted this quote from your introduction. You
write that the Church of England was largely content
to accept its prescribed status as nonessential
throughout the COVID 19 crisis. To
many outside the church, indeed to many inside the Church, this
appeared to be a rather disconcerting
disappearance of the church from UK national
life at a time when people were confronted by
(09:42):
the reality of death in an intensely
powerful way.
You have another quote here that I think again is relevant.
You write the marginalization of the slow and costly work of
theological education in the Church of England's life is
all the more baffling when what is perhaps most needed in the
Church today is theologically astute followers of
(10:03):
Jesus who can out narrate a sin
sick world. So there's a lot there to
unpack. But uh, I think one of the things that
struck me about your book and
about what you're trying to,
at least as I understand it, uh, trying to
tackle is that it's really something
that it seems like both in the
(10:25):
States, I know from my co host Martha in
Canada, maybe it's a
Western Christian thing about what is
the church. So I kind of gave you a lot here
to respond to. So feel free to kind of
to run with that.
>> David (10:43):
Um, yeah, so I guess
for me the sort of, I guess part of the inspiration or the
part of the reason um,
behind the book is uh,
uh, really as you've articulated this
question of what is the church, uh it
seems to me that in the Western
(11:05):
church in particular, uh, given its
decline, um, so often, uh, it
seems to me that the church, whether that is the Church of England or whether it
is uh, another church denomination within
the Western church, be it in the UK or in the
States, it seems to me that so often that the
response to that decline uh, can on
the one hand either be inertia, which would be
(11:27):
kind of the uh,
perhaps the response of the Church of England within the context of the
COVID 19 crisis, although
clearly they were examples of
great practice during that time as well.
Um, but then also perhaps uh, on the other
hand, uh, the response of
what um. Michael uh. Jenkins in a book
(11:49):
that he wrote, I think at the end of the 20th century called the
Church Faces Death, called the Hyperactivity of
Panic. So this idea that you
know, um, that in the
face of its kind of decline the Church kind
of uh, clutches for or
grasps after every sort of uh,
programmatic solution or structural reorganization,
(12:10):
which are Jenkins's uh, words into the
desperate hope that you know, its survival is just another
sort of project or organization or chart away as
he uh, puts it. And uh,
for me, I guess I See some of that
um, playing out or
um, the symptoms of
some of that sort of hyperactivity of panic playing out
(12:33):
in much of what is written about or
taught about the church uh today.
So uh, a lot of what is written about the church today or
taught about the church today is concerned with
this question, uh, not of what the church is,
but rather with the question of
how the church is uh, to be or what the
church is to do. Uh,
(12:56):
um, whether that's kind of focused on questions around
how the church is best to relate to a
post Christian secular culture, whether that's to do
with how the church relates to contemporary
ethical issues or how it's to practice worship or how
it's to engage in mission and evangelism.
But um, a lot of what is
(13:16):
spoken or taught about or written about the church today is
concerned with kind of what I would describe
more as matters of form and
practice of the church rather than actually
what the church is. And it seems to
me that you can't ask the how
question, uh, before you've
asked the what question.
(13:38):
Um, you know, you need to ask, I
think when it comes to thinking about
church, what the church is before you
then ask how we are to be the church.
And I guess part of me carries uh,
some kind of nagging fear that uh, a number of
people who are involved in some form or
another in church leadership, whether that's ordained church leadership
(14:01):
or non ordained church leadership, or even just
participating in the church, serving in the church in some form
or another, might struggle to kind of
articulate a uh, kind of theological response
to that question of what the church, uh,
is. And so the uh, book really
is, is designed to kind of
bring that question, um, or
(14:22):
to spotlight that question, um, above
everything else, uh, when it comes to uh, thinking
or speaking about uh, the church.
>> Loren (14:32):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm thinking
about other conversations that have been had on this
podcast my co host Martha had with Justin
Anthony who I think and Allison
Milbank, who I believe are both over in your neck of the
woods, uh, as part of the Church of England
and have similar observations,
(14:52):
critiques especially of the Church of
England. And I'm thinking also just
in my context,
mainline prostitism in the States. I
do wonder though, is this a
uniquely white Western
challenge?
>> David (15:11):
Um, I think it certainly,
I mean I obviously write in the context of the
Western church and obviously you
know, the uh, church is clearly not in decline in the
global south or um, uh, in the
majority world. Uh, and so ah, an
aspect of this uh, perhaps is, uh,
specifically related to the
(15:34):
Western church. And obviously that's kind of the church
that I'm kind of seeking to address it in the book itself.
And obviously the church of which I'm a part of and
seek to kind of love and serve in that
way. And so, um, it is
very much kind of focused in that, ah,
direction in terms of, um, the kind of
constructive kind of project that I'm trying to engage in.
>> Loren (15:56):
Yeah. Yeah, that's helpful. You know, I'm
also thinking, I often use this
story years ago when I was in a group,
independent, very conservative Baptist. And years
ago when I was in
Bible college,
uh, if a chapel speaker would get up and say, hey,
we need to share the gospel, or a bunch of guys would
(16:19):
get in the dorm, would get real excited and
let's go share the gospel of the neighborhood, we all knew
what we were doing. We all went
out knowing what we were talking about and sharing
with the neighbors. To me, it seems
like, and I'll change the analogy
here, it seems like similarly,
(16:39):
whether in mainline Protestantism, if we
expand that to perhaps here, neck of the woods in the
Church of England, when
folks say, let's go, we gotta whatever.
We gotta work for the church or grow the church or whatever the
church it seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I
feel like this is kind of what you're getting at in your book. There's no
(16:59):
real shared assumption or
understanding of what we mean by the church. Is that fair?
>> David (17:06):
Yeah, I think so. I think that's
probably fair. Um, I think
my underlying kind of, um. Or
the question really, um. Or the issue I'm
really kind of wanting to push is that,
um, before we ask questions
about how the church should worship
(17:26):
or how the church should
engage in mission or evangelism,
um, or how the church should relate to,
as I say, a post secular Christian, uh,
culture. Or a post Christian secular culture.
Sorry, um, There has to be some more
fundamental, um, uh,
thinking undertaken about what is this thing that we
(17:49):
label as the church.
Um, because so often what
we think about the church,
um, translates or whether
consciously or unconsciously into practice.
Um, and so what we do kind of
betrays something about what we think of this
thing called, uh, the church. And so I
(18:10):
guess my concern or my project really
is simply to try and
persuade people to spend
some time thinking about that what question before
moving too quickly into the
how or the do question, which often, uh,
translates directly into form and practice.
(18:31):
Now, don't get me wrong, matters of form and practice in the life of the church
are fundamental and important.
>> Loren (18:36):
Right.
>> David (18:36):
But to me, they can only follow on
from some kind of, uh,
articulation of what the church is in and of
itself. And I guess for me, the other thing that I might
have in mind is,
um, you know, clearly
across denominations, but also, uh,
within denominations, you will get at
(18:57):
multiple different answers potentially, and
multiple different emphases to this question, even
of, um, perhaps even what the
church is. But, uh, I guess one of my questions
is really to try and ask, well, can we get to a level of
thinking about what the church is? An agreed level of thinking about
what the church is that might cut across some
(19:17):
of the, um, denominational kind of
divisions.
>> Loren (19:21):
Ah.
>> David (19:22):
When a lot of those denominational divisions, not all of them, but a lot of
them, uh, are focused, uh, around
matters of form, practice and
policy.
>> Loren (19:31):
In that sense, I'm really again
thinking about how. What you said about the responses to
decline, you know, when it's inertia or
panic, that kind of
hyperactive panic, like you said, when
we're thinking about what to do rather than why we should,
or, you know, the.
The what rather than the why, I suppose really
(19:53):
can put the cart before the horse, so
to speak. Right.
>> David (19:58):
Yeah. And that's basically my concern.
The focus on, um,
how we should be doing church
puts the cart, uh, before the
horse. Um, the primary
ecclesiological question, or the primary question I would
say that we need to be asking when we come to think about the
(20:19):
church, um, is the question of what the
church is, uh, most kind of
fundamentally. And yes, there will be kind of nuances
of emphasis around that question, but is there
something, uh, that we can get at,
um, which uh, kind of shapes,
uh, and guides therefore, um,
matters of form and practice, which
(20:41):
effectively would help the church in some small
way, uh, to live and act
in the world in ways that are more and
ever more faithful to its own true being.
>> Loren (20:53):
Let's do this and let's have you share, if you would, just
briefly, about the four.
The four kind of,
can't say the word, ecclesiological
frameworks. I told you I'm sick, so I
got junk in the throat that's making things worse.
Share those four frameworks, if you would.
>> David (21:13):
Yeah. So I guess in response to this,
or wanting to kind of foreground, I guess, this question of
what is, uh, uh, the church.
Um, the way I go about, uh, seeking to kind of
foreground that question in uh, the book is
to, uh, offer what I describe as a
typology of contemporary approaches
(21:34):
to Ecclesiology. And that typology
has um. Uh. Or is made up of
five different types of theological uh.
Approach to going about addressing uh.
This question of um. What the church is or thinking
about uh. The church in that
sense, uh theologically. And so,
um. The uh. Typology in and of itself
(21:57):
is kind of offered in one sense
as a uh. Constructive orientation
to the field of ah. Contemporary ecclesiological thought.
So um. If you're
someone who's uh. Studying ecclesiology, uh at
some point, whether that's in seminary or an
uh. Undergraduate or even postgraduate level or if
(22:17):
you're a church pastor wanting to think about
um. The church theologically,
then it's really offered that typology in one sense
as kind of an orientation to
numerous kind of sort of debates and emphases
uh. In sort of contemporary ecclesiological uh.
Scholarship. But of
the kind of types themselves.
(22:40):
Um. Um. I begin
by um. Uh. Unpacking kind of
four different types uh of
approach. Uh the first type of approach, uh.
Is something that I call empirical
ecclesiology. And
um. All of these approaches I should say
are really uh. Related
(23:01):
uh to uh. The question of how
um. God's action or divine
agency and human action or human
agency relate in the life of
uh. The church. And
um. Uh. I kind of
set out at ah. These different types of approach or
I draw them out in terms of their relative
(23:24):
emphases on divine and
human action in relation to ah. The
church itself. So uh. In the first type, as
I say, empirical ecclesiology, uh. I suggest that in
empirical ecclesiology, um. The real
emphasis, um. In this question about what
the church is. The real emphasis falls on what humans
do in the life of the
(23:46):
church. So the church essentially in
empirical ecclesiology is what humans do. And
therefore in um ah.
Theologians who kind of uh. I read as
offering or falling into this type of approach.
An account of human agency is really
the most important thing that they're wanting to
(24:07):
uh. Address. Uh. So that's really the first
um type. And obviously
um. Uh. There is
um. Something ah. Really quite vital and
strong in that approach. Because on the one hand the church is
a human community. You know, it's important that we
understand the church in that way and therefore study
the church as an empirical human community. Uh.
(24:30):
But that's the first uh. Type. The second type
is something I call performative
ecclesiology. Uh
and uh. Performative ecclesiology,
uh. Is um. Kind of
attentive if you like to some of the moves that
empirical ecclesiology uh wants to make.
But primarily in performative ecclesiology there's a
(24:51):
desire to offer ah, an account of
God's action, um in
addition to the account of human uh,
action. Performative ecclesiology.
Um, uh. Also um
uh. For the way that I read it and construct it,
it really does relate to kind of um
uh. Understanding the Church in terms of its practices, in terms
(25:14):
of lived ecclesial life and human
uh, practice. So in some
sense it's close or a close cousin but
slightly distinct in a way to the
first type of approach.
Um. The third type. Third type is something
I call communion ecclesiology which
kind of um,
(25:36):
approaches this uh, question of what the Church
is not on the sort of front footing of
human agency or the action of humans, but more
squarely on the action of God or divine
agency. Um, but the way in which it then
works that out is in relation
to um, God's own triune life
as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh, and specifically by
(25:58):
indexing God's work or divine agency in the life of
the church to the site of uh, the
Eucharist in some form or uh,
another. And um, then type
four, um is uh, I
guess a kind of slightly more extreme version
you might say of an approach or an account
of the Church that kind of has its front foot
(26:21):
on the action of God and divine ah,
agency. Um, and uh.
In that fourth type, uh, I call that fourth type
ideal ecclesiology. And in that type the
Church essentially is what ah, God does,
um. And um.
Therefore kind of the kind of
questions or the critique that I pose in relation to
(26:44):
ideal ecclesiology is the extent to which
ah, an ideal approach to ecclesiology
marginalizes or um,
dissolves in some form or another, um, the
Church's actual human empirical form as
a community of people.
>> Loren (27:02):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
So for our listeners and this is
helpful in your book, you have kind of a layout of
sort of I suppose on like a spectrum.
>> David (27:13):
Yeah.
>> Loren (27:13):
And on one side with the
empirical. Right. It's human agency is kind of at
the far end. The emphasis is on human agency. Then if
I'm understanding correctly, at the other opposite end,
the ideal ecclesiology or divine agency
is kind of at the strong emphasis
and there's some overlap obviously in all
these. I'm wondering, I don't know if you're familiar
(27:36):
with. I'm thinking of um. I
don't know if you're familiar with Nandra Root's work, but I'm thinking of
his pyramid in. I think it's the
Church in the age of secular mysticism. Are you familiar with that
book or his pyramid there?
>> David (27:51):
I'm not familiar with that specific book. I'm
vague, sort of broadly aware of Nandra
Wirt's work. But I'm not particularly familiar with
that pyramid. Uh, so I don't know whether you want to kind of.
>> Loren (28:03):
Okay, then maybe go with it. Yeah, maybe
that won't work, but I'm thinking. I guess I'll generalize the
question then a little bit more.
Certainly Nandra Root explores, kind
of based on Charles Taylor and the idea of the
secular age. Um, it seems
like if we had a lump sum here,
(28:23):
we've moved broadly speaking Western Christianity into
this more to use
your words I suppose, empirical or performative
take on church as human
agency. Is that a fair assessment do you think?
>> David (28:41):
Um, I think uh. Whether it's
specifically uh. Tied to
um, sort of the um.
Diagnosis of kind of at the secular age
that Charles Taylor offers in his
work. Um. I think there is definitely a sense
in kind of contemporary
ecclesiology or in the study of the church
(29:02):
in a more contemporary period where uh.
The emphasis uh more heavily is certainly
on um, the church as a human
community that if you want to know what the church is
then the first thing you have to do is to study this human
community. Uh, almost um. You
know, drawing on the fruits of the social sciences
or um. Empirical study or
(29:24):
ethnography and using those
um. Uh. Non theological
disciplines you might say to kind of
understand the church as a human community. Then almost kind of
theologising um about what the
church is out of that kind of
empirical uh study. And that's certainly
probably uh today in the world of contemporary
(29:46):
ecclesiological thought, um
where uh. More often than not the
emphasis is placed in terms of when we come to
thinking about what the church is. Um
now you know, you can trace some uh, of
that emphasis um through uh. Various
different kind of moves if you like within ecclesiology.
There's uh, something uh, fairly recently
(30:09):
in the 21st century, um called the
ethnographic turn. Uh, in
ecclesiology again is this turn
towards empirical study and the fruits of empirical
study. Um, I mean that in and of itself
might be seen as um. Dependent upon
sort of a broader turn in theology towards
culture. And that
(30:31):
obviously has perhaps its roots if uh. You trace
it, keep on tracing back in certain
aspects of liberation theology. And so the
idea that actually theology is a reflexive
act, that actually theology arises
from um. The ground, from the root upwards
so to speak, and you theologize out of
(30:52):
people's um. Experience on the
ground.
So I guess that the tension that I'm trying to
think uh, about in the context of this book is
uh. Where do you start your thinking about the church?
Do you start your thinking about the church on the
ground, um, and think sort
of bottom up, so to speak, or do you
(31:13):
think about the church top down, you know,
from within, if you like the doctrine of God or from the
perspective of the doctrine of God, from the inner life of God and
work your way out towards the human
community. And obviously where you start
your kind of thinking about the church obviously
has implications, um, for uh,
(31:34):
where you uh, then go and the type of
content that you end up sort of working
out, uh, in that thinking about what the Church
is.
>> Loren (31:46):
Now in my understanding correctly, that
you're advocating for kind of a middle ground
or a tension between the two. Um. Is that accurate?
>> David (31:55):
Yeah. So I mean the
book sets out these first sort of four
types of approaches. And as you say,
um, they do revolve, if you like, around the
relationship between human agency and divine agency.
With empirical ecclesiology squarely on the side of
human agency, ideal ecclesiology squarely on the
side, sort of a divine agency and then performative
(32:18):
and communion ecclesiology kind of in the
middle, uh, of the sort of opposite poles, uh
so to speak. Um, but obviously with some overlap
between all of them.
Um.
>> Loren (32:30):
Uh.
>> David (32:31):
Where the book kind of goes to
is uh. To suggest
a fifth type of approach. Which is
something that I call ecclesiological
ecclesiology. And uh.
Really, um. What I'm trying to tease out in that
chapter is, is. Well, you know, having
surveyed or having constructed these
(32:52):
four different types of approach, having
identified uh, their
strengths, their weaknesses, uh, from a theological
perspective, is there a way to begin to think about
how you might address,
um, in speech about the Church,
um, some of those theological deficiencies,
um. Ah. That are apparent in those other four, uh.
(33:14):
Types. And uh. To make that
move, I, um. Go to the third
article of the Creed, um, I uh,
go to an account of uh. The personal
work of God, the Holy Spirit, as ah,
a way really to
um.
Think along with
um. A couple of other theologians, a couple
(33:37):
of other ecclesiological thinkers, how
an emphasis on ah, the work of the Holy
Spirit and an emphasis on pneumatology in that sense as
a doctrine in ecclesiology might help us
to think, um, divine and human
agency together in a more helpful and
constructive way, which not only allows you
to hold um, on to the fact and to
(34:00):
emphasize and to speak about the church as
a human community. Well, uh, but
also, uh, to relativize that
speech, um, by an appropriate emphasis
on God's own action, basically.
>> Loren (34:17):
This conversation is very theoretical.
You mentioned you work at a seminary, or as
we might call it, a seminary.
And I want to think, as this is a podcast that really
does want to help pastors and church leaders,
I want to bring this more practical, this
conversation. And I think
(34:37):
about this tension, as
I'm understanding it, between
the pull to make church all about
human effort is the word I'll use
versus that. Opposite tension or opposite
extreme, I suppose, of just kind of like let go and
let God would be a phrase.
(34:59):
How do you advise, you know,
how do you advise pastors, church leaders? I mean, this is,
as you alluded to, this is something it seems
like you're wrestling with. You think the Church of England is wrestling
with about what is adequate training
for church leaders. I mean, you talked about the. In
your book Church of England, sending out, like, kind of lay leaders
(35:19):
to start churches. Talk more about
that.
>> David (35:24):
Um. Uh, so, I mean, I guess
in terms of the sort of. The types of approach itself.
So I mean, let's just run on a sort of a
practical level with, um. I don't know. Uh, you
may, you know, cash out, for example, an ideal
approach to ecclesiology that you might think, okay, well,
here's a theologian talking about the church in. In
(35:45):
these terms, uh, in a very kind
of, um, theoretical or, uh,
systematic or doctrinal way, almost.
Um, but that doesn't equate or that doesn't
relate to the church down the road that I go to. You
know, that church is
broken, it's marred, it's
(36:05):
scarred, um, by, um, you know,
human sin, by matters of
race, ableism, um,
or sexism or whatever it might be.
Um.
>> Loren (36:19):
Uh-huh.
>> David (36:19):
And so the emphasis on, I guess, you
know, drawing out from empirical ecclesiology would be to
say, well, what is the space in your church
community, uh, for the reality of human
sin, for the reality of
broken lives, or is actually what
people experience in the context of your
local church, um, almost
(36:42):
like an unattainable ideal when it comes
to church life or living the Christian
life? Almost? Um, is everything
so perfect, in other words, uh,
presentationally or not, as the case may
be, for, uh, people actually to engage, uh,
with. Uh. So I guess that's kind of one of the
questions.
Obviously, there are other questions in terms of, you know, you've taken the
(37:04):
emphasis on communion, ecclesiology, for example. You
know, what role does the Eucharist
or Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper play in the worshiping life
of your church. You know, for some
theologians, as I sort of, uh, articulate in the course of
that chapter on communion ecclesiology, the church is
most herself in that kind of moment of
celebrating the uh, Eucharist of
(37:27):
breaking bread and wine outpoured. Um, so I
guess one of the challenges there is if the
Eucharist somehow is constitutive of what the
church is,
um, where is it
in the life of your church? To what extent does your
worshiping life kind of reflect that? And uh. So there
are all the sorts of these kind of, um, practical
(37:48):
questions, I guess, that kind of flow
from, um. Ah, some of these different
types of, uh, approach.
And uh, for me, I guess one of the questions is
often, uh, for church pastors or church leaders, whether
ordained or not, um, often the churches
that they. Or we seek to lead and grow,
(38:08):
um, whether we realize it or
not, will take on a kind of former
practice,
um, in a way which kind of
betrays what you actually think the church
is. So you might not actually think
the church is constituted at all, uh,
by broken bread and wine
outpoured. And therefore you may well end up leading a church
(38:31):
where actually you don't think the celebration of the Eucharist is that
important. Um, so there are
all of these different emphases which
I guess come out and might play out on a practical
level, um, which,
um. I would want kind of, uh.
Those leading local churches to kind of, uh,
wrestle with or think through, or at least think
(38:53):
through the sort of the implications of why they're doing
what they're doing and what does that actually
communicate in terms of what they think or believe?
Um, the church, uh, is.
Um. So I mean, if
the church is just a human community
and somehow is just this group of
(39:14):
people kind of gathering together,
then why is it important that
the way they live is more countercultural
than culturally relevant, so to
speak? Um,
or if,
um, the church is constituted in
its. Or by its practice. Does
(39:36):
doctrinal belief matters in that sense?
>> Loren (39:42):
Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the
book is you kind of really play out kind of the
logical implications
of these concepts.
I do want to again drill down even
more. Practically speaking, again, as I'm thinking about,
at least here in the States. And uh, it sounds like
(40:03):
they're similar challenges
over there where you are. Where,
at least in my context,
there's continued decline
of church budgets and
resources. I just had a conversation
with a middle adjudicatory leader about
(40:25):
bivocationality as the term we use here in the
States, being the future,
I'm fortunate that I think in my
seminary that I graduate from is fortunate to have
very, uh. Seems like a very good financial
foundation to draw from. But even then I wonder
how much can students continually,
(40:46):
even how much will there be
a future for theological education at least
like the classic M. Div?
What do you think about balancing this tension of again
like a, uh, well educated, theologically
educated clergy versus the
very real implications
(41:07):
and challenges of, I suppose, the
modern economy?
>> David (41:11):
Yeah, it's a great question and
I, uh, guess.
>> Loren (41:14):
And how does it affect ecclesiology? I guess lived out.
>> David (41:17):
Yeah. Uh, and I guess
one of the issues that your question raises is when we
talk about theological training
of future church leaders or even current
church leaders, what do we mean by that? Um,
are we just talking about theoretical
theological education or are we
actually, uh, talking about
(41:38):
um, uh, training in a much more holistic way
which does actually draw on
questions, um, of um,
aspects of leadership training or
how you kind of lead a meeting or
fundraise, um, or engage with social
media and all of these different things. And
(42:01):
I guess I'm part of a
theological college or seminary in the States where ah, all
of our, um, students, uh, who are
training for ordained ministry are also, at the same time
as they're doing their formal theological
study, are also engaged in practical mission and
ministry in local churches. And so they're doing the two things
(42:21):
together. Um, so they're speaking to
one another, um, right from the get go.
And obviously, yes, today seminary training has to
be much broader than just your
classical kind of M. Div. Training, uh, because
obviously clergy today on the ground have to deal
with, and church pastors have to deal with multiple
different things. They are
(42:43):
asked to do many, many different things in the
context of leading churches, which, uh, perhaps
historically seminary, uh, training hasn't equipped
them well for.
>> Loren (42:56):
Yeah, Let me do one more question here before
we take a break.
When we think about pastors and
church leaders on the ground leading their
churches, how would
you advise them to maybe be
cognizant of or begin a dialogue
maybe within themselves, within their leadership, even
(43:17):
within the broader church, about how
their perhaps implicit understanding
of church ecclesiology is shaping
their church actions and how
maybe they might want to
solicit, bring change in their congregation?
>> David (43:36):
Sorry, can you just repeat that question? You kind of broke up a little
bit.
>> Loren (43:39):
Yeah, sure. Just when we think about pastors
and church leaders thinking
about how would you advise Them to begin within
themselves, within their congregation,
formulating, forming conversations around
what kind of ecclesiological
approach they take currently and how, if they want
(44:00):
to shift or bring a different kind of approach,
how they might do that.
>> David (44:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I
guess I would start with some really
quite uh, basic questions, sorry,
between uh, you and your
congregation. So, um,
what do you think the Church is?
What is the Church for? What is the Church's
purpose? Um, uh,
(44:27):
and once you begin to tease out some of those
questions, uh, that then may lead you
in a different direction. So is the
Church simply, um, to
serve those who are already members of
it? For example, um, there was a
previous Archbishop of Canterbury, um, who a long time
ago said that um, the Church is
(44:49):
the only non cooperative society, uh, that
exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members
of it. Um, and
so asking some basic questions
around what you think the Church is, uh,
what is the Church for and what is its purpose
might um, then begin to help you tease out
(45:10):
what it is you think you're doing or why you're
doing it at, ah, when you come together as the
Church.
And I think, you know, tying this back
to um, uh, the sort of
fifth theological approach that I identify in the book as
ecclesiological ecclesiology, one of the kind of
focuses, uh, there is this idea
(45:31):
of um, you know, the purpose of
the Church or the Church exists not for the sake of itself.
Right. The Church exists for the sake of the world.
And so how does your gathered
church, or how does your Church as uh, the gathered
people of God in its own uh, life
express the fact, uh, that
(45:53):
its identity is ultimately in
its outward looking missional focus and
purpose. So I guess I would be encouraging
people to start with some very basic questions. What
is the Church or what do you think the Church
is? What do you think the Church's purpose
is? What do you think the Church is for?
Um, how do you think about the fact that
(46:17):
we declare in the Creed that the Church is
holy and yet it is
broken and sinful? Or how
do you think about the fact that the Church is one, as
we declare in the Creed, and yet the
Church is divided? Um, and
then begin to tease out some of those things from there.
(46:37):
Where people are at. Basically you've got to start where people are
at.
>> Loren (46:42):
Yeah, these are important questions because I'm thinking
even just these three questions, the responses
to these will greatly shape the real
practical, lived out experience of
what the Church looks like. Whether it's
more of a very missional type
outreach Centered community, very much a worshiping
(47:02):
community. Um, yeah, this is. I
wish.
>> David (47:07):
So I guess one of the questions is, you know, when you
know, is the church there to serve you?
Is the church there to serve your needs,
to give you your kind of spiritual
fix?
>> Loren (47:19):
Yeah.
>> David (47:20):
Sunday by Sunday, or whatever day of the week it is that you
gather so that you can then engage in the world
or so happening. How do you perceive, you know,
do you think the church is there to serve you? Are you simply a
consumer of what the church offers
you? Or is something deeper and something else going on
here? When we come to think about what the church
is, and therefore how we, as the
(47:42):
disciples of Christ, are to engage in
the church that is Christ's.
>> Loren (47:46):
Body, I'm reminded, I don't know if
you've heard this term before. I mean, it goes back to
something even from my conservative Baptist days, of
this disagreement that we're talking about, like, is the
church a hospital? Is the church,
um. You know, I can't remember the other word. Like, is the church
a hospital for the world? Is it a
HAAS or a safe space, a
(48:09):
hotel? Or for, you know, for believers, is it a.
Is it a mission organization? So I think it's. This is a question
that, uh, believers and Christians,
it seems like across the spectrum are wrestling
with.
Well, the book is. I'm going to find the title again.
5 the Types of Ecclesiology, 5
Theological Approaches by David Emerton.
(48:32):
Let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing
questions.
All right, we're back with the Reverend Dr. David
Emerton. So thank you for your time. Really appreciating
having this conversation with you.
Uh, some closing questions that we tell folks you can take as
seriously or not as you'd like to.
(48:53):
If you're a Pope for a day, what might that day look
like for you? What do you want to do anything like that?
>> David (48:59):
If I was Pope for the day, uh,
what would I do? Uh, that's a great
question. Um.
Um,
on a less than serious note, probably, uh, find someone
to find me and bring me the best Italian
espresso that you can lay your hands on.
(49:20):
Um, but, um. But what would I do
if I was Pope for the day? I don't know. I think. Well,
I, uh. Probably to use the opportunity,
um, to tell
the world in whatever way I could do that
following, um, after Jesus really is the best thing that
anyone can ever do with their life.
>> Loren (49:39):
Yeah.
>> David (49:40):
Um. Um, that.
That, you know, it's not an easy or straightforward
path, and sometimes it's A very costly path, but, but
it is certainly a path that
um, along which
kind of real life or resurrection life comes to
us, uh, through the Spirit.
Um, I guess, um,
(50:02):
I might also kind of use it as an
opportunity to tell the church
or those who belong to the church
that um, wrestling or
taking time to wrestle with why we
believe what we believe as Christians, uh, whether it's
about the church or whether it's about the gospel. More
(50:22):
fundamentally, taking some time
to study a bit of theology at whatever
level, uh, will enlarge certainly your love for
God, your love for the church, but also your love
for um, uh, the world.
Uh, and I guess going back
to the quote that you picked up on from the
introduction of the book, I
(50:44):
do wholeheartedly believe that what
is perhaps most needed in the church today is as I say,
theologically astute followers of Jesus who
can out narrate a sin sick
world. Uh, and so perhaps if I was pope for the
day, I'd take the opportunity to get up on my
soapbox and um, say that a bit more
loudly.
>> Loren (51:05):
Yeah, well, I like the uh. This
is pretty unique answer. I don't know how much folks who
have talked both sides of I want to do something
fun like get a great espresso and then I want to speak to the
world. So that's good.
Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
meet or bring back to life.
>> David (51:25):
Oh, wow. Um, well, I guess
on one hand probably, um, if
my students are listening to this, they're
probably expecting um, me at this point to say
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, um, the 20th century
German theologian and church pastor who was
martyred, um, uh, by
(51:46):
uh, the Nazis, uh, primarily because
he was the focus of my uh, PhD research.
And I, uh, still kind of teach and do quite a little
bit of work around his theological thinking in his
life. And um. But I'm not going to give
you the obvious answer, uh, that uh, people would expect
and I'm going to say I think probably I'd
(52:06):
quite like to have a conversation or bring back Thomas
Aquinas.
>> Loren (52:10):
Okay.
>> David (52:11):
Um, and why do
I say that? Um, well, I don't know whether you know
anything about Thomas Aquinas, uh, but uh, for me
his life story is pretty interesting.
Um, there's ah, that kind of moment,
um, when his brothers, on hearing that Thomas
was planning to kind of begin a new life of sanctity
as um, a Dominican friar and follow after
(52:34):
God's call in his life, that his brothers kind of
go so far as to lock him up. In a room and
um, stick uh, a prostitute in his room to try and tempt
him away from his life of intended
sanctity. And uh, legend has it that
Thomas uh, responded to this temptation by
chasing the uh, prostitute out of his rooms with a
log that he picks up from the fire
(52:56):
in uh, the corner. But he's got a pretty uh,
interesting uh, life story. But I think
personally at the moment I'm, I'm really quite fascinated to be
honest, in the way that Thomas approaches his study of
theology. Um, and I guess I see
this um, sort of in evidence, I guess
in his really ah, famous work the Summer
(53:16):
Theologica. And the way that he kind of
works how I would see it kind of
charitably, um, graciously
and plausibly if you like, uh, to think himself
into the shoes of those people that he ultimately
goes on to dispute with in the context
of his theological thinking. And so
I guess I'd love to talk to him a little bit about
(53:38):
um, how he
sees the work and task of
uh, theology around this idea that
theology and the study of theology is this kind of
um, uh,
deep and sustained act not only of
listening, uh, well, to the thoughts and thinking of other
people, but kind of doing the hard work
(54:00):
to kind of think yourself into their shoes
so that you can then respond to their thinking graciously
and charitably, uh, with skill, even if
you go on to ultimately disagree uh,
with them. And I'd uh, love to pick Thomas's
brains uh, if he was alive because I
think there's much that the modern day church or the contemporary
(54:21):
church, uh, could learn from Thomas in terms
of um, about the sort of the
nature of theological debate almost
um, about the nature of theological disagreement.
Um, you know, whatever else Thomas is doing. This is
certainly not kind of sound, biting, it's certainly not
um, 140 characters, um,
(54:41):
on a platform formerly known as Twitter.
This is kind of careful, sustained listening
to one another. Um, and so I'd love
to kind of pick his brains a little bit about that,
about how he sees almost the work of theology
and the way it's to be done kind of humbly and prayerfully
and generously in that sense. So Thomas
(55:02):
Aquinas. There you go.
>> Loren (55:04):
Yeah, that's good.
What do you think history will remember from our current time
and place?
>> David (55:09):
Oh, uh, crumbs. What will history
remember from our current time and place?
>> Loren (55:17):
Um, this
is a big hour since we are recording across the
ocean here.
>> David (55:25):
Um,
I mean I
honestly am not sure what history will remember
from this Time and season that we're in at the
moment, um, probably the development of
AI, um, and
whether if that progresses in the
(55:47):
way it seems to be progressing,
um, ah, whether people will love
us for it or completely ru us or
hate us for it,
um, I imagine,
you know, our relation to
the created world,
what we actually ah, leave future
(56:08):
generations. Um, I
would hope that people
would um,
reflect quite critically on um,
certain political movements and
um, certain trends and emphases in,
in politics and in uh, the life of
(56:29):
today's society. Whether you're kind of this side of the
pond or your side of the pond.
Um, but, um. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say,
isn't it? Um, I mean, I hope. What I really hope and
pray, what history will remember from this
current time and place is that,
um, the church was faithful to
the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Um,
(56:52):
but
that's um, a challenging thing at the moment.
>> Loren (56:58):
Well, that is kind of the last question we always ask
folks, and it's a related question. What are your hopes
for the future of Christianity? Would that be your hope then?
That the church was faithful?
>> David (57:10):
Um,
yeah, I guess my hope for the future of
Christianity and, and sort of the church
would be that, um,
we as individual Christians,
but we as the church
corporate, um, I guess might
(57:30):
come to express ever more faithfully, both in
form and practice, in word and deed, uh,
the conviction that Christ alone
is our hope. Um,
and. And thereby kind of recover, I guess,
a courageous confidence, uh, in the
truth of God's gospel,
um, both internally within the life of the church, but
(57:53):
also externally out in the public square
in the life of, um, the
world, um, that we would be known
more for the name of Jesus than
abuse scandals or,
um, being quiet
or irrelevant.
>> Loren (58:12):
Yeah. Well, I really
appreciate this conversation, really encourage folks to check
out, um, the book and your work.
Do you have folks, do you have a way for folks to connect with
you, um, website, anything?
>> David (58:27):
I don't have a personal website. Um, the, uh,
best way to connect with me, uh, is I have a LinkedIn
account. People, uh, can find me on LinkedIn.
Um, otherwise, uh, I'm not on social media,
um, which in today's world,
um, you know, perhaps it's not the best way
to further uh, your own career. But there we
go. I have my reasons, ah, for that.
(58:50):
Um, but otherwise you can find me through,
um, my theological college's
website, uh, which is Summer Litus
College. So if people Google Summerlitus
College, that's N, E L L I T U
S Mellitus um, you can
find me through that, um, and you can obviously
then contact me by email, uh, through that, uh,
(59:12):
forum as well.
>> Loren (59:14):
Well, thank you so much for your conversation. I, uh, always
leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with
you.
>> David (59:20):
And be upon you, too.
>> Loren Richmond (59:29):
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
questions, comments, and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
future-christian.com and find the
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to
get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you
(59:51):
go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to
leave a review. It really helps us get this out to
more people. Thanks and go in peace.
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