February 21, 2024 • 41 mins
Discover the remarkable transformation of Dr. Carrie Sturts Dossick, who went from an undecided college major to an esteemed figure in construction management and technology. In a candid conversation, Carrie recounts the pivotal moments of her career, from her early intrigue with materials in architecture to the invaluable guidance of her mentor, Bud Griffiths. Her story is an ode to the profound impact mentorship can have and a celebration of the innovative spirit that defines her path, offering listeners a unique perspective on the evolution of construction management education.
Join us for a deep dive into the complexities and triumphs of creating the National BIM Standard as Carrie opens up about her experiences merging teaching, research, and administrative duties at the University of Washington. She navigates through the challenges of harmonizing disparate industry groups into a cohesive framework and offers a glimpse into the future of digital construction. Her insights are a guiding light for those interested in the synergy of policy, project management, and the progression of industry standards.
In our episode, technology and personal passions intersect, revealing how Carrie's lab tackles the intricacies of IoT, digital twins, and the evolution of BIM. She discusses the symbiotic relationship between technology and human interaction within building operations and the necessity of cybersecurity in today's connected world. Listen as Carrie shares how her love for dance mirrors the creative processes in construction innovation, and don't miss her insights into the collaborative approach to education that's fostering the next wave of industry change.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome builders, innovators and construction
professionals to anotherexciting episode of Future
Construct.
I'm Mark Oden, the CEO of BIMDesigns Incorporated and your
guest host today.
Today I have the privilege ofdelving into the dynamic world
of construction management andcutting-edge technologies with a
true trailblazer in the fieldand the very first construction
educator to be featured on ourshow.
(00:31):
Our distinguished guest todayis Professor Kerry
Sturtz-Dossick, a powerhouse inconstruction management and the
associate dean of research inthe College of Built
Environments at the Universityof Washington.
Dr Dossick's influence extendsfar beyond the classroom as she
navigates the forefront ofcollaboration methods and
technologies, leaving anindelible mark on the industry.
(00:52):
As a professor of constructionmanagement, dr Dossick brings
over two decades of invaluableresearch and teaching experience
, focusing on emergingtechnologies such as BIM.
But that's just the tip of theiceberg.
She wears multiple hats,holding an adjunct professor
appointment in the Department ofCivil and Environmental
Engineering and currentlyserving as the vice chair of the
(01:13):
National BIM Standard USPlanning Committee of the
National Institute of BuildingSciences, otherwise known as
NIBS.
What sets Dr Dossick apart isnot just her academic prowess,
but her hands-on approach toshaping the future of
construction.
She co-directs theCommunication Technology and
Organizational Practices Lab, ahub of innovation in the Center
(01:34):
for Education and Research inConstruction, cerc.
This is where theory meetspractice and groundbreaking
projects come to life.
Our guest is not just anacademic luminary.
She is deeply embedded in theindustry's fabric, collaborating
with giants like Skanska andTurner Construction.
Dr Dossick is spearheadinginitiatives like the
(01:55):
Introduction to BIM forConstruction Management
Certificate and an onlinecertificate for digital
fabrication workflows forconcrete formwork.
And that's not all.
Dr Dossick's recent workincludes revolutionizing
BIM-based information exchange,setting standards for the Port
of Seattle and exploring theimmersive world of virtual
reality for facilitiesmanagement training.
Today I will dive into herinsights, experiences and the
(02:19):
impactful journey she has had inpushing the boundaries of
construction technologies.
With so much experience, drDossick, you've had a profound
and positive impact on thedigital construction market and
continue to do so.
Welcome to our show and thankyou for all of your many
contributions in the AEC space.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
To get us started today, could you share with our
listeners a bit about how youfirst became interested in the
field of construction management?
How far back does that go andhow did it show up for you then?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, great, we're going to start at the beginning,
sounds like so.
I was an undecided collegemajor at Columbia University,
actually started in thehumanities side of the Columbia
College and decided that whenstudying architecture initially
that it didn't really understandmaterials.
So I ended up going over tocivil engineering to understand
(03:09):
more about steel and concreteand how they the materials and
how to create with them.
But I never made it back overto architecture.
I ended up getting recruited outof undergrad into graduate
school by my advisor, professorBud Griffiths, and he recruited
me to masters and then recruitedme into a PhD.
So I was really fortunate tohave a mentor that saw my
(03:30):
potential and drug me into the,into the, recruited me into the
industry so, and he really gotme started on the interest in
technology as well.
So the lab that I had there atColumbia University we looked at
emerging technologies we didn'teven call it BIM at that time.
(03:52):
We were looking at 3D models,3d CAD and databases is how we
talked about it and had a numberof industry partners and I was
funded by the ConstructionIndustry Institute for my PhD
studies.
So that's how I got I gotstarted in the fields and
started on tech, on technology.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, beautiful.
Who did you mention?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
your mentor was Professor Bud Griffiths.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is he?
Is he still on on campus?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
He's not Suddenly.
He passed away a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear it's.
Your story just brought me backto you know, my days in college
and the professors that hadsuch a strong impact on my path,
and you know who.
I'm just amazed, always amazed,with how teachers and
professors you know really helpeach student understand their,
(04:48):
you know, help them shine theirlight, if you will, and shine as
bright as possible.
So I'm so glad that you hadthat, that fortunate experience
with with Professor BudGriffiths.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, now, he was instrumental in setting both my
career, but also giving me agreat model for being a mentor.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
How did how did the transition take place in terms
of shifting your focus from?
You talked a little bit aboutarchitecture and civil
engineering, and then can youelaborate more on how you ended
up finding what you calledemerging technologies, or what
later became them, in your space?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah.
So after I received a PhD Iended up working in the industry
for five years and then findingmy way back to academia.
So, starting in 2005 at theUniversity of Washington as
assistant professor, I needed tokind of relaunch my research
momentum, unlike coming out of aPhD program when, kind of
running with that momentum, Ineeded to restart so at the time
(05:46):
.
So I got my PhD in the 90s andso, coming back to academia in
2005, I was kind of looking atwhat are the emerging
technologies?
I had studied technology in myPhD, so what are the
technologies that are going on?
And in 2005, if people rememberback or if you are around or in
the industry at that time, youwill remember that BIM was the
(06:08):
new hotness, the new emergingtechnology.
So I decided that and therewere many patterns of the
discussion around BIM thatsounded very familiar to the
studies that we had done around3D, cad and databases in the 90s
.
In the 90s I was focused on theprocess and power sector, so
the BIM conversation washappening more in the building
(06:29):
sector in the 2000s.
So that's kind of how that's.
Well, when I was restarting myresearch momentum and when I
started at the university, I wastrying lots of different ideas
actually to see what stuck, andwhat stuck was the BIM
trajectory.
So that's how I end up there,and what was really exciting to
(06:54):
me is that when I got into BIM,one of the things that people
talk about BIM is they talkabout how it's used for
collaboration and how itsupports collaboration, and so
getting into the kind ofexploring the space and
understanding what the questionsare, I realized that it was
more about studying people thanstudying technology.
(07:15):
I mean we need to study both.
We need to have our informationflow from one system to another
.
Interoperability is a big BIMquestion, but what I was seeing
was well, how does it help uscollaborate?
And as an engineer, I wasn'ttrained to study people.
I was trained to study things.
I know how to, how a BIM inbending works, I know how to
(07:35):
break things and study thatmodality, but I wasn't trained
to study people.
So I ended up collaboratingwith a social scientist who has
become my career-long partner,dr Gina Neff, and we work
together Gina bringing herexpertise on social science and
(07:56):
communication in the ways thatwe are able to study people, and
I bring the deep industrysector knowledge of ASE or
engineering design andconstruction processes.
So we've been a team and I haveto credit Gina as my
collaborator on a lot of thework that I've done throughout
(08:19):
the years.
So as we started to develop ourunderstanding of how people work
with technology, that got usinto questions of collaboration
in general but also othertechnologies that we were seeing
.
So in one of our early BIMstudies they were also using
Webex.
So you had virtualcollaboration or distributed
(08:41):
team collaboration, and I gotinto a partnership with other
scholars to look at distributedteams and global teams and
collaboration and how all thismedia right.
We are collaborating right nowon this conversation across
technology.
So we're mediated by technology.
So I got not only was Istudying BIM, but I thought the
(09:05):
term emerging collaborationmethods or emerging technologies
was a good term for what my labdoes, because as the
technologies change and evolve,we're not necessarily just
studying one type of technology,but we can study lots of
different types of technology asthey emerge.
So, gotten into global teamsvirtual reality, augmented
reality, digital fabrication,right all the fun tech side of
(09:29):
the industry have had a chanceto work on a variety of projects
in that space.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I'm so excited for you, carrie, if I may call you
Carrie, and just a couple ofpoints there.
One is being an engineer myself.
I completely 1000% relate to inthat regard and I've actually
really enjoyed, you know,running and growing this company
in the BIM space because of thefocus on people and, for myself
(09:58):
, the challenge of, you know,learning the work with people,
and there's so much I havelearned and so much I'm grateful
for and so many people I amgrateful for, my team included,
and I now love bringing teamsinto collaboration and this is a
really, really big joy point ofmine.
That's a lot of fun and youknow it's so funny.
This show absolutely is aboutyou and I can't resist but say
(10:23):
that most of my early career wasworking for Cisco WebEx.
So it may have been.
It may have posted your timethere was around 2010 to 2016.
But I was.
That's maybe for a whole otherconversation I'd love to share
with you some.
You know how you explored thatand what your experience was and
(10:44):
working with those teams.
That's just outstanding.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, in the 90s actually, my research team with
the CII we were our team pilotedthe first WebEx team that was
using WebEx within the CII, soI'd spend.
I've been hanging out withWebEx for a while now.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Oh my God that's so incredible and that's you know
you really were working in the90s on highly innovative things
that were, you know, futuristic,because it's you know, 2024 now
and everybody's living on theworld similar to WebEx, right.
So that's just outstanding.
I'm so excited, as we getdeeper into the show, to talk
(11:24):
about what your lab is workingon today and it sounds like
that'll be, you know, somewherein the 5, 10 to 20 range, 20
year range so cool.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, two decades.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, two decades.
Yeah, let's call it two decades.
I wanted to add a thought thatjust came up.
So, when you're talking about,it's interesting how I find a
lot of the experience insomeone's life.
While you don't know it at thetime, they kind of accumulate
and when you get to a placeyou're like, oh, that random
thing I did 20 years agoactually is contributing to the
(11:56):
thing I'm doing right now.
And one of those things is isan undergrad.
I seriously consideredanthropology instead of
engineering, and what I findreally cool about what I
currently do is I become anengineer who does ethnography,
which is a method, a primaryresearch method of anthropology
(12:16):
and arguably was developedwithin that anthropology sector.
So I think it's kind of funthat are cool, that that
interest that I had kind of inthe undergraduate years and I
didn't follow that direction butI've been able to incorporate
that interest within my researchin the engineering domain.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So for what it's for.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat so much.
I know that as an engineer I Ido now, but I did not in college
value all of theextracurricular activities that
I could have participated in thehumanities courses, things like
that, psychology courses andotherwise and so, yeah, I love
that you had that stronginterest and background and then
(12:57):
that allowed you to become awell-rounded engineer.
That has been amazinglysuccessful, sticking with the
education theme and the studenttheme.
As a student, did you ever seeyourself transitioning to the
other side of the whiteboard?
So did you see yourself as ateacher when you were a student?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It's interesting, my early part of my career was
defined a lot of my saying noand then ended up becoming that
thing.
So when I was recruited tomaster's, I was like I'm not
going to do a PhD, I know he'sgoing to ask me.
And then he asked me and Istarted to do a PhD.
I did a PhD and then, as I wasdoing my PhD, I was like I won't
become a professor.
No, no, no.
And then five years later Ibecome a professor.
(13:38):
So I was kind of saying, oh,actually, even before that, when
I graduated from high school, Iwas considered high aptitude
for engineering and I even saidno, I won't do engineering, so
be careful what you say no to,because you'll end up doing it
apparently.
So, yeah, I didn't.
I was a little bit.
(13:58):
I was actually to be to bereally open with the audience.
I was actually pretty terrifiedof public speaking and in high
school and college and I don'tknow if it was at the level of
phobia, but it was really afraidof it.
So teaching was not appealingbecause you'd have to get in
front of a class and a few timesthat I did it I was terrified.
(14:20):
So I wasn't really seeingmyself as like, oh yeah, I'm
going to become a professor andthat's, you know, my dream.
It was more of a Brownianmotion random walk career path
for me for to geek out on theengineering side.
I sure.
So that's kind of it was, eachdoor would open and I would
(14:40):
assess it and it seemed like agreat door to walk through and I
would do that and then you know.
So that was.
That was more my experience.
I haven't been kind of a while.
I'm very planful person.
I haven't been a long longrange career goal oriented
career person.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well, thank you for sharing when you in terms of the
fear of public speaking, howdid you face that and what did
you do to overcome it?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It was a long, multi year process.
I actually signed up forToastmasters and I can, I can, I
can highly recommended.
I thought it was a very goodexperience and I, when I was
engineer in California, was apracticing engineer and the
company had a Toastmasters cluband so I practice and I just
made myself get up and do it andthose days I had to speak I was
(15:29):
so nervous I couldn't eat lunch, you know, and I just kept
practicing and it wasn't reallyuntil you know, and I did a
couple of public talks at thattime because I had my
dissertation work and peopleinvited me to speak and it was.
I was terrified and then, whenI became a professor, it was
really exposure therapy, I think, because I had to show up in
(15:51):
front of the class twice a week.
In fact, I think my first classwas three times a week and I
just every time I had to get upthere and do it.
So within a couple of years ofbeing a professor, I became much
more confident and comfortablepublic speaking and recognizing.
I actually have a naturalaptitude for it.
I think that I am pretty goodat public speaking and
(16:15):
extemporary speaking andmentorship, so being able to
recognize that and rely on thatwas was good, but it took me
many years of practice to getthere.
So just perseverance and sheerpower of will and I'm stubborn,
so pushing myself to do it isreally how I got there.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, I'm glad you did.
I'm glad you did, Carrie.
I'd love to continue exploringyour career projects, industry
involvement, publications, aswell as your future vision for
the AEC industry.
Does that sound fun?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
All right.
As the associate dean ofresearch in the College of Built
Environments at the Universityof Washington, and with an
adjunct professor appointment inthe Department of Civil and
Environmental Engineering, canyou elaborate on your current
role and key responsibilitiesyou hold with these positions?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yes, so I wear at least two hats at work a
professor hat and a and theassociate dean hat.
And as a professor, I'm aprofessor in construction
management as my primaryappointment and then adjunct
faculty in civil andenvironmental engineering,
secondary or adjunct.
So I have teaching, researchand service work.
(17:25):
So I teach classes, I advisestudents and I do research in my
lab and I do service, meaning Ispend time in committees and
working with journals externalto the university and the
national BIM standard is one ofthose services.
It's kind of a combination ofservice and research role for me
(17:48):
In my associate dean rolethat's working at the college
level and our college has fivedepartments and so I'm an
associate dean for research.
So I focus on the researchmission of the college and try
to promote and extend and expandand network all of the college
researchers and help supporttheir work and help communicate
(18:09):
their work and extend their work.
So I get to think aboutresearch at this bigger scale
and the impact of research at abigger scale across the whole
college.
I found it to be a lot of fun.
I really enjoy the work.
There's some infrastructurebuilding where you're doing
policies and procedures which Inever thought I'd be into.
(18:31):
In fact, that's another no Iused.
I said, ah, I never do policyand here I am doing policy.
And then I'm also helpingnetwork, so meeting with people
from across the campus andhelping connect the researchers
in my college to their programsor within that network.
I'm mentoring researchers towrite proposals and grants and
(18:53):
help disseminate the findings,building mentoring programs.
So there's all kinds of greatwork that happens at the
associate dean role.
So it's lots and lots and lotsof big and small tasks and a lot
of juggling.
So I get to use my projectmanagement skills to manage all
(19:14):
of those pieces and I have somereally great staff that I work
with that help keep it allstraight as well.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So earlier you mentioned geeking out on
engineering.
Could we geek out on P6?
P6 scheduling?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Sure, I don't know if we want to mention names, but I
don't use P6 for my internaltask management tools.
But I have a soft spot.
I used to be a scheduler inindustry, so I do enjoy a good
construction schedule.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Sure, yeah, you're welcome to mention any tool that
you prefer.
I'm sure the audience wouldlove to hear what's actively
used out there.
But I'd really be interested indiving into you being the vice
chair of the National DEMStandard US Planning Committee
and there's a new version comingout.
We'd really love to hear yourinvolvement in that.
What brought you into theinvolvement there, how the
(20:08):
collaboration formed for that V4and what it looks like and
where you are today with it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I have a long history with the National
Institute of Building Sciences.
I started with the National DEMStandard and V2.
When I started my research inBIM I realized I wanted to know
more about national trends andwhat's happening, and so I
volunteered to be on thetechnical subcommittee for V2.
(20:39):
And then I ended up on theNational BIM Guide for Owners
Committee and was one of theauthors on that product and then
dabbled in various other rolesand then, for version four of
the National DEM Standard, wasfirst the chair and now the vice
chair of the Planning Committee.
So in the heart of the work ofsetting the vision for the
(21:04):
national standard for the UnitedStates and navigating and
supporting the writing of theproducts that are just about to
be published from that effort.
So there's a lot to talk aboutwithin all of that journey.
(21:24):
What I think is interestingabout the US market is it's very
ground up, that kind of like,because we are a federation of
states.
It's almost the industrymirrors that structure where
there's lots of differentindustry groups and different
associations and lots ofdifferent political interests
(21:45):
within the industry.
So what we did when we startedbefore we were looking at D3,
how did it go?
And there was actually a formalassessment of D3 and some
identification of some of theshortfalls of that version, and
so we took that as a lesson andto design the next step.
(22:08):
And the goal right now of thecurrent structure of the
Planning Committee and the BIMCouncil is to create a more
agile system where we createmodules and create a library of
a standard, as opposed to aunified document.
So there's so much to do withinthe BIM environment and really
(22:29):
it's kind of BIM and beyond it'slike digital construction or
digital work and there's so muchto do there that it's not a
single standard but lots ofdifference.
We can envision lots ofdifferent standard components
that need to be internallycoordinated but can be also
standalone products.
So it's now the vision for theNational BIM standard is a
(22:53):
library of standards andguidelines and support products
like spreadsheets and forms thathelp people implement BIM
design, construction andoperations of the built
environments.
So we I was part of designingthe model and the structure of
(23:14):
the organization, creating theplanning, the current formation
of the Planning Committee andthe modules and the working
groups, and there are stillworking groups.
While we're publishing V4,there are still working groups
that are working on futurecontent that are overlapping
right.
We have a line in the sandcalled V4, but there's still
(23:35):
other work continuing and thosemodules may be published in the
interim phase and then anotherwill kind of scoop up all the
modules that are ready and do aV5.
So we're trying to get into aroutine where modules are
independent of the overallversioning process, can publish
at any time, but then eachversion will kind of package up
(23:56):
what's ready.
So that's the structure.
And then in this last phase ofthe V4 development I was the
Planning Committee liaison tothe Project BIM Requirements
Subcommittee and my lab receivedsome funding to support the
writing, the research andwriting of that standard.
(24:19):
So what we did was we collectedexample products from across
the world for BIM requirementsand BIM guidelines.
So we have a whole library ofkind of the best of BIM
requirements for buildings,transportation.
We had a working group thatincludes lots of different
(24:43):
industry experts who were ableto recommend, and we I think we
even put it out to the wholemembership of the Nibs BIM
Council to say you know anybodywho has a BIM requirements
document that they love to useor they think highly of, please
send it to us an example.
And then we did what's called acontent analysis, a research
(25:03):
method where you go in and youanalyze the content of the
documents, and we were able tocreate a set of shared themes
that then became the structureof the soon-to-be-published
project BIM requirements.
Then the subcommittee wedivvied up all those sections
and each subcommittee membertook the examples from the
content analysis and draftedtheir sections.
(25:26):
And then, painfully, we walkedthrough as a committee, line by
line, the whole document andrefined and made it a unified,
unified voice, unified standard.
And we have the standard whichis the requirements for project
BIM requirements.
So it's the necessary elementsthat you need to have in order
(25:51):
to have a comprehensive projectBIM requirement standard or,
sorry, project BIM requirementspecification.
So it would be something you'dhave as part of your contract.
You need to do these things inyour contract and we recognize,
well, just saying that you needsomething maybe not helpful to
the industry where they're likewell, I need this thing, but I
(26:12):
don't know what it is.
So we have a second documentthat's a supporting document,
that's example language of allthe sections, all the required
elements of the project BIMrequirements.
So we have example languagethat will support implementation
.
So if you're an owner whodoesn't have your own language.
You need somewhere to start.
Just pick up our examplelanguage and start there and we
(26:35):
anticipate you need to reviseand edit that example language.
In fact we would call it madlibs, because there would be
some places where you literallyhave to fill in the blank
because to make it generalenough for to be applicable
across the sector.
You know, a bridge is differentthan a road, is different than
(26:59):
a building, is different than afacility.
So you needed, we needed to have, we try to create language that
was universally applicable andthat people could then modify
for their own context and owntheir own own organization and
their own context, projectcontext.
So we hope it's a usefuldocument.
I'm really excited about itbecause it creates a standard
(27:23):
that establishes the kinds ofthe kinds of specifications you
need to do to specify BIM and ona project.
And that's, in our analysis,really needed because we did
this content analysis and wefound even the best of in the
industry was still missing majorcomponents that other best of
(27:45):
had right.
So there was no industryexample that had all the
elements in it.
So I encourage everyone, evenif you are well established and
you have a really greatguideline.
I believe you probably used itin our analysis.
But take our new standard andwalk crosswalk it with yours and
see where your gaps are,because I can guarantee there
(28:07):
are gaps and it'll be reallyhelpful to fill those gaps for
your projects and yourorganization.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Thank you again for stepping us through the, the v4
of the BIM standard, kerry, Iwant to transition to talking a
little bit more about what'shappening in your research lab
today, which really means what'shappening in the future, 10, 20
plus years from now.
So, for as much as you're ableto share, can you please share
about your you being theco-director of the Communication
Technology and OrganizationalPractices Lab in the Center of
(28:34):
Education and Research andConstruction, and what's the
lab's focus?
What are you doing today andwhat are you?
You know, what are you seeingfor the future?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Thank you.
So, yeah, as we started ourdiscussion, we work on emerging
technologies.
So you will not be surprisedwhen you hear the technologies
we're working on today, whichincludes IoT and digital twins.
Those are kind of some of thehot new terms in the industry
and the new technologytypologies and what I'm seeing.
(29:04):
It is very much a naturalprogression from the BIM work
that we've done and we actuallyhad some energy modeling work
that we've done in the middlethere that I haven't talked
about yet, but that all leads tothis next phase of technology
and the digital twin work.
So we've had a chance to do astudy where we've done a
preliminary study of definingdigital twins in design
(29:26):
construction operations and whatthey are and how they work, and
our current research projectsinclude looking at the work that
it will take to get digitaltwins to work.
So that's kind of coming backto.
You asked about the lab.
So we look at practices and welook at the ways technology is
used in practice.
(29:47):
So organizational issues,communication issues as well as
the technological issues.
So thinking about the work thatpeople do with and around
technology is a focus of thelab's work.
So some of the emerging workthat's happening is we're
looking at organizationalchanges, how team structures
(30:08):
need to change, where we'reintroducing if we think about
the operations of a buildingwe're introducing IT into
systems that didn't typicallyhave internet capabilities.
Right, so we're being able torun window shades or run
lighting, connecting thosethings to the internet.
(30:31):
That introduces all kinds ofinteresting new challenges that
building operators may not havethe skill sets to do.
So it's understanding theircapacity and what they need, but
also thinking about the kindsof teams.
So now you have internetcapabilities in your building
systems, well, now your ITdepartments may be needing to
(30:53):
partner with your buildingoperations.
So a lot of the work that we'vebeen doing over the last, I
would say, five years is lookingat those relationships.
We had a National ScienceFoundation funded project to
look at cybersecurity related toIoT and operations and that was
looking at that teamenvironment and the challenges
of working across disciplines.
(31:17):
And the work that I've donethrough BIM and collaboration
all just naturally leads our labto be really well positioned to
answer those kinds of questions, because we've been studying
people and studying the way theywork together and studying
interdisciplinary collaborationand as well as teaching it.
I'm really proud of one of theclasses we teach here.
(31:38):
That is a collaboration classwith architects, engineers and
contractor construction studentsand they collaborate together
to work on a shared project.
So I've been thinking about notonly how to study it, how to
understand it, give the industryinsight into working across
disciplines, but also thenteaching people to work across
disciplines.
(31:58):
So I have the whole arc thereof the work.
So, yeah, and it's exciting topartner with some new folks
around creating digital twinsand getting into that kind of
painful first step of creating apilot and understanding and
hitting those boundaries of whatthe technology can actually do
(32:20):
and some of the language aroundit, some of the work around it
is very reminiscent of theprevious cycles that I've
experienced the first cycle of3D, cad and databases in the
process of power sector 90s, bimin the 2000s.
Right, here we are in thisdigital twin cycle.
I'm like, yeah, this soundsfamiliar, like these cycles are.
(32:41):
There's some things that aredifferent, but some things are
very familiar with the way thattechnology is introduced into
the space, the way people debateand discuss and struggle to
implement it.
All of those have some morepatterns.
So what I'm excited about isworking with my colleague, gina
(33:01):
Neff, on a new book to talkabout innovation in the industry
.
So that is probably a year outfrom publication, but maybe I'll
get to come back and talk aboutmy book because I'm really
excited about where we are goingwith the book and thinking more
holistically and broadly, notjust about BIM, but about how an
industry innovates and wherethose tension points and
(33:26):
challenges are at all of thelevels, because social
scientists have really greatways of thinking about
technology change in terms ofthe practices and structures and
rules of the way that we worktogether.
So the book hopefully willbring insight across the
(33:46):
industry in terms of helping usanswer as an industry why it's
actually so hard to implementtechnology.
Well, I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Now you would love to have you back and I feel like
there's so much that you and Icould talk about.
I'm just so thrilled to pickany topic and sort of you know,
play tennis with you.
In a sense, I love the factthat you're looking at you know,
if I may in my own words, youknow, you're looking at digital
twins and say, okay, you knowhow, what?
(34:19):
Like you said, what is thepractical practice of digital
twins?
How can the industry apply it?
It's a great idea, great, youknow.
Great concept.
It will serve a lot of purposes, bring a lot of benefits.
But in practice, what can theindustry do?
And I love that you'reconnecting that dot, because
that's a very big bridge tobuild, and I love that you're
building that bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Thank you.
Yeah, as you can tell, I'mpretty excited about the work,
so always happy to have aconversation about it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Cool, well, I want to start to look into the future a
little bit here, if you couldshare, outside of the
construction space and all ofthe successful success that
you've had in your career.
What other passions andinterests have you explored?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Well, no, but I know that I have a secret identity.
I'm actually also a moderndancer.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Very cool which dance style.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Oh well, modern and contemporary dance.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh, okay, okay, modern is the style itself.
Got it.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So in I grew up dancing ballet,tep, jazz and then I went to
school in New York so I had achance to dance there and I've
just kept kept it up.
So I have a small dance companyand we make dances together and
perform.
So it's a wonderful balance ofthe you know, artistic brain and
(35:41):
the engineering brain and Ifind that keeping dance in my
life has been really helpful tokeep keep me creative, help me
being balanced, and I also havethis wonderful network of dance
friends that I wouldn'totherwise know because we're
connected through our dancepassion.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So that's incredible.
Even the whole other angle thatI look forward to exploring
with you.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
You surprised yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I mean, I clearly haven't heard of or, can say,
explored, modern dance, but I'veexplored other forms of dance
that I've really enjoyed as welland in my mind I was seeing
those as modern.
So I'm even, you know, I'minterested in diving deeper into
you know, what does modern mean.
But I can imagine now I've seen, you know, clips of videos of
(36:29):
you know, you know, dancemethods in in New York City
specifically, and you know justhow, I guess, maybe outside of
the box, they might, they mightbe be represented as Well, the
famous names you might knowMartha Graham, marce Cunningham,
alvin Ailey those are some ofthe early developers of modern
(36:54):
modern dance and todaycontemporary dance is is more
the term that people use in theeveryday performance.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Performance of this modern slash, contemporary space
.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So yeah, Well, thank you for sharing that and
congratulations on your successwith your alternate identity.
Sounds like any hat.
We, we, you know the world hasyou where the universe has you,
where you'd be successful init's.
It's absolutely outstanding.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's been.
It's been a really great partof my life, so I'm glad to keep
keep it going.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
As a final question of the show and a tradition of
future construct, if you couldproject yourself out 25 years
and wanted to have any devicetechnology that would benefit
you personally, what would it beand what would it do?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I initially didn't like this question and then I
decided that I really like thisquestion, and the reason I
really like this question isbecause I can think of what we
really need now, but it probablywon't happen until the future
is getting the right informationat the right time.
So I think we are just barragedwith information.
(38:03):
I've been trying to like figureout better ways of managing my
email and going on to LinkedInand going on to Facebook or
whatever your social mediaplatform of choices and you're
just barraged with random ideasand thoughts all day long and I
don't necessarily when I'mlooking, opening these, these
tools, I'm not getting theinformation kind of when I need
(38:25):
it and I'm constantly parsingthrough information that is is
feels like randomizing my day,like oh, this random thing just
came in, and even like the textmessages that you get every all
day long and email is in arandom order list.
So I would love a technologythat serves up the information
(38:45):
when I need it.
So, if I'm ready to sit downand relax, okay, give me my
socials.
Okay, now I'm ready to thinkabout teaching.
Okay, where are my students?
What are they doing?
Right?
Okay, now I need to think aboutmy research.
Okay, where's this project?
What's happening with that?
I would love to have that kindof information.
I think everybody you know intheir jobs and in their personal
(39:07):
lives would love to be servedup the information of interest
kind of when they're ready toconsume it, as opposed to having
to constantly parse throughinformation all day long and,
and you know, when we're doingour work, trying to find the
document or the piece ofinformation or document
management.
Information management is stillsuch a big part of the task and
(39:30):
the technologies we havecurrently are only helping us
get there a little bit.
You know we're trying tocentralize, we're trying to
create a single source of truthfor information, but it's still
a long ways from getting it toreally work for us, I think.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Well, I love that and I can't wait for the day either
.
I think that's gonna be areally, really exciting day, and
hopefully it shows up soonerthan we know it for the better.
And with that, I want to thankyou so much for your time.
Congratulations on all of youraccomplishments.
I really enjoyed delving intowho you are as a person and your
experience and background.
(40:07):
Thank you for joining us onFuture Construct today.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
Welcome builders, innovators and construction
professionals to anotherexciting episode of Future
Construct.
I'm Mark Oden, the CEO of BIMDesigns Incorporated and your
guest host today.
Today I have the privilege ofdelving into the dynamic world
of construction management andcutting-edge technologies with a
true trailblazer in the fieldand the very first construction
educator to be featured on ourshow.
(00:31):
Our distinguished guest todayis Professor Kerry
Sturtz-Dossick, a powerhouse inconstruction management and the
associate dean of research inthe College of Built
Environments at the Universityof Washington.
Dr Dossick's influence extendsfar beyond the classroom as she
navigates the forefront ofcollaboration methods and
technologies, leaving anindelible mark on the industry.
(00:52):
As a professor of constructionmanagement, dr Dossick brings
over two decades of invaluableresearch and teaching experience
, focusing on emergingtechnologies such as BIM.
But that's just the tip of theiceberg.
She wears multiple hats,holding an adjunct professor
appointment in the Department ofCivil and Environmental
Engineering and currentlyserving as the vice chair of the
(01:13):
National BIM Standard USPlanning Committee of the
National Institute of BuildingSciences, otherwise known as
NIBS.
What sets Dr Dossick apart isnot just her academic prowess,
but her hands-on approach toshaping the future of
construction.
She co-directs theCommunication Technology and
Organizational Practices Lab, ahub of innovation in the Center
(01:34):
for Education and Research inConstruction, cerc.
This is where theory meetspractice and groundbreaking
projects come to life.
Our guest is not just anacademic luminary.
She is deeply embedded in theindustry's fabric, collaborating
with giants like Skanska andTurner Construction.
Dr Dossick is spearheadinginitiatives like the
(01:55):
Introduction to BIM forConstruction Management
Certificate and an onlinecertificate for digital
fabrication workflows forconcrete formwork.
And that's not all.
Dr Dossick's recent workincludes revolutionizing
BIM-based information exchange,setting standards for the Port
of Seattle and exploring theimmersive world of virtual
reality for facilitiesmanagement training.
Today I will dive into herinsights, experiences and the
(02:19):
impactful journey she has had inpushing the boundaries of
construction technologies.
With so much experience, drDossick, you've had a profound
and positive impact on thedigital construction market and
continue to do so.
Welcome to our show and thankyou for all of your many
contributions in the AEC space.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
To get us started today, could you share with our
listeners a bit about how youfirst became interested in the
field of construction management?
How far back does that go andhow did it show up for you then?
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Well, great, we're going to start at the beginning,
sounds like so.
I was an undecided collegemajor at Columbia University,
actually started in thehumanities side of the Columbia
College and decided that whenstudying architecture initially
that it didn't really understandmaterials.
So I ended up going over tocivil engineering to understand
(03:09):
more about steel and concreteand how they the materials and
how to create with them.
But I never made it back overto architecture.
I ended up getting recruited outof undergrad into graduate
school by my advisor, professorBud Griffiths, and he recruited
me to masters and then recruitedme into a PhD.
So I was really fortunate tohave a mentor that saw my
(03:30):
potential and drug me into the,into the, recruited me into the
industry so, and he really gotme started on the interest in
technology as well.
So the lab that I had there atColumbia University we looked at
emerging technologies we didn'teven call it BIM at that time.
(03:52):
We were looking at 3D models,3d CAD and databases is how we
talked about it and had a numberof industry partners and I was
funded by the ConstructionIndustry Institute for my PhD
studies.
So that's how I got I gotstarted in the fields and
started on tech, on technology.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yes, beautiful.
Who did you mention?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
your mentor was Professor Bud Griffiths.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is he?
Is he still on on campus?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
He's not Suddenly.
He passed away a few years ago.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear it's.
Your story just brought me backto you know, my days in college
and the professors that hadsuch a strong impact on my path,
and you know who.
I'm just amazed, always amazed,with how teachers and
professors you know really helpeach student understand their,
(04:48):
you know, help them shine theirlight, if you will, and shine as
bright as possible.
So I'm so glad that you hadthat, that fortunate experience
with with Professor BudGriffiths.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, now, he was instrumental in setting both my
career, but also giving me agreat model for being a mentor.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
How did how did the transition take place in terms
of shifting your focus from?
You talked a little bit aboutarchitecture and civil
engineering, and then can youelaborate more on how you ended
up finding what you calledemerging technologies, or what
later became them, in your space?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah.
So after I received a PhD Iended up working in the industry
for five years and then findingmy way back to academia.
So, starting in 2005 at theUniversity of Washington as
assistant professor, I needed tokind of relaunch my research
momentum, unlike coming out of aPhD program when, kind of
running with that momentum, Ineeded to restart so at the time
(05:46):
.
So I got my PhD in the 90s andso, coming back to academia in
2005, I was kind of looking atwhat are the emerging
technologies?
I had studied technology in myPhD, so what are the
technologies that are going on?
And in 2005, if people rememberback or if you are around or in
the industry at that time, youwill remember that BIM was the
(06:08):
new hotness, the new emergingtechnology.
So I decided that and therewere many patterns of the
discussion around BIM thatsounded very familiar to the
studies that we had done around3D, cad and databases in the 90s
.
In the 90s I was focused on theprocess and power sector, so
the BIM conversation washappening more in the building
(06:29):
sector in the 2000s.
So that's kind of how that's.
Well, when I was restarting myresearch momentum and when I
started at the university, I wastrying lots of different ideas
actually to see what stuck, andwhat stuck was the BIM
trajectory.
So that's how I end up there,and what was really exciting to
(06:54):
me is that when I got into BIM,one of the things that people
talk about BIM is they talkabout how it's used for
collaboration and how itsupports collaboration, and so
getting into the kind ofexploring the space and
understanding what the questionsare, I realized that it was
more about studying people thanstudying technology.
(07:15):
I mean we need to study both.
We need to have our informationflow from one system to another
.
Interoperability is a big BIMquestion, but what I was seeing
was well, how does it help uscollaborate?
And as an engineer, I wasn'ttrained to study people.
I was trained to study things.
I know how to, how a BIM inbending works, I know how to
(07:35):
break things and study thatmodality, but I wasn't trained
to study people.
So I ended up collaboratingwith a social scientist who has
become my career-long partner,dr Gina Neff, and we work
together Gina bringing herexpertise on social science and
(07:56):
communication in the ways thatwe are able to study people, and
I bring the deep industrysector knowledge of ASE or
engineering design andconstruction processes.
So we've been a team and I haveto credit Gina as my
collaborator on a lot of thework that I've done throughout
(08:19):
the years.
So as we started to develop ourunderstanding of how people work
with technology, that got usinto questions of collaboration
in general but also othertechnologies that we were seeing
.
So in one of our early BIMstudies they were also using
Webex.
So you had virtualcollaboration or distributed
(08:41):
team collaboration, and I gotinto a partnership with other
scholars to look at distributedteams and global teams and
collaboration and how all thismedia right.
We are collaborating right nowon this conversation across
technology.
So we're mediated by technology.
So I got not only was Istudying BIM, but I thought the
(09:05):
term emerging collaborationmethods or emerging technologies
was a good term for what my labdoes, because as the
technologies change and evolve,we're not necessarily just
studying one type of technology,but we can study lots of
different types of technology asthey emerge.
So, gotten into global teamsvirtual reality, augmented
reality, digital fabrication,right all the fun tech side of
(09:29):
the industry have had a chanceto work on a variety of projects
in that space.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
I'm so excited for you, carrie, if I may call you
Carrie, and just a couple ofpoints there.
One is being an engineer myself.
I completely 1000% relate to inthat regard and I've actually
really enjoyed, you know,running and growing this company
in the BIM space because of thefocus on people and, for myself
(09:58):
, the challenge of, you know,learning the work with people,
and there's so much I havelearned and so much I'm grateful
for and so many people I amgrateful for, my team included,
and I now love bringing teamsinto collaboration and this is a
really, really big joy point ofmine.
That's a lot of fun and youknow it's so funny.
This show absolutely is aboutyou and I can't resist but say
(10:23):
that most of my early career wasworking for Cisco WebEx.
So it may have been.
It may have posted your timethere was around 2010 to 2016.
But I was.
That's maybe for a whole otherconversation I'd love to share
with you some.
You know how you explored thatand what your experience was and
(10:44):
working with those teams.
That's just outstanding.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, in the 90s actually, my research team with
the CII we were our team pilotedthe first WebEx team that was
using WebEx within the CII, soI'd spend.
I've been hanging out withWebEx for a while now.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Oh my God that's so incredible and that's you know
you really were working in the90s on highly innovative things
that were, you know, futuristic,because it's you know, 2024 now
and everybody's living on theworld similar to WebEx, right.
So that's just outstanding.
I'm so excited, as we getdeeper into the show, to talk
(11:24):
about what your lab is workingon today and it sounds like
that'll be, you know, somewherein the 5, 10 to 20 range, 20
year range so cool.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, two decades.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Incredible.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, two decades.
Yeah, let's call it two decades.
I wanted to add a thought thatjust came up.
So, when you're talking about,it's interesting how I find a
lot of the experience insomeone's life.
While you don't know it at thetime, they kind of accumulate
and when you get to a placeyou're like, oh, that random
thing I did 20 years agoactually is contributing to the
(11:56):
thing I'm doing right now.
And one of those things is isan undergrad.
I seriously consideredanthropology instead of
engineering, and what I findreally cool about what I
currently do is I become anengineer who does ethnography,
which is a method, a primaryresearch method of anthropology
(12:16):
and arguably was developedwithin that anthropology sector.
So I think it's kind of funthat are cool, that that
interest that I had kind of inthe undergraduate years and I
didn't follow that direction butI've been able to incorporate
that interest within my researchin the engineering domain.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
So for what it's for.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat so much.
I know that as an engineer I Ido now, but I did not in college
value all of theextracurricular activities that
I could have participated in thehumanities courses, things like
that, psychology courses andotherwise and so, yeah, I love
that you had that stronginterest and background and then
(12:57):
that allowed you to become awell-rounded engineer.
That has been amazinglysuccessful, sticking with the
education theme and the studenttheme.
As a student, did you ever seeyourself transitioning to the
other side of the whiteboard?
So did you see yourself as ateacher when you were a student?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
It's interesting, my early part of my career was
defined a lot of my saying noand then ended up becoming that
thing.
So when I was recruited tomaster's, I was like I'm not
going to do a PhD, I know he'sgoing to ask me.
And then he asked me and Istarted to do a PhD.
I did a PhD and then, as I wasdoing my PhD, I was like I won't
become a professor.
No, no, no.
And then five years later Ibecome a professor.
(13:38):
So I was kind of saying, oh,actually, even before that, when
I graduated from high school, Iwas considered high aptitude
for engineering and I even saidno, I won't do engineering, so
be careful what you say no to,because you'll end up doing it
apparently.
So, yeah, I didn't.
I was a little bit.
(13:58):
I was actually to be to bereally open with the audience.
I was actually pretty terrifiedof public speaking and in high
school and college and I don'tknow if it was at the level of
phobia, but it was really afraidof it.
So teaching was not appealingbecause you'd have to get in
front of a class and a few timesthat I did it I was terrified.
(14:20):
So I wasn't really seeingmyself as like, oh yeah, I'm
going to become a professor andthat's, you know, my dream.
It was more of a Brownianmotion random walk career path
for me for to geek out on theengineering side.
I sure.
So that's kind of it was, eachdoor would open and I would
(14:40):
assess it and it seemed like agreat door to walk through and I
would do that and then you know.
So that was.
That was more my experience.
I haven't been kind of a while.
I'm very planful person.
I haven't been a long longrange career goal oriented
career person.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Well, thank you for sharing when you in terms of the
fear of public speaking, howdid you face that and what did
you do to overcome it?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
It was a long, multi year process.
I actually signed up forToastmasters and I can, I can, I
can highly recommended.
I thought it was a very goodexperience and I, when I was
engineer in California, was apracticing engineer and the
company had a Toastmasters cluband so I practice and I just
made myself get up and do it andthose days I had to speak I was
(15:29):
so nervous I couldn't eat lunch, you know, and I just kept
practicing and it wasn't reallyuntil you know, and I did a
couple of public talks at thattime because I had my
dissertation work and peopleinvited me to speak and it was.
I was terrified and then, whenI became a professor, it was
really exposure therapy, I think, because I had to show up in
(15:51):
front of the class twice a week.
In fact, I think my first classwas three times a week and I
just every time I had to get upthere and do it.
So within a couple of years ofbeing a professor, I became much
more confident and comfortablepublic speaking and recognizing.
I actually have a naturalaptitude for it.
I think that I am pretty goodat public speaking and
(16:15):
extemporary speaking andmentorship, so being able to
recognize that and rely on thatwas was good, but it took me
many years of practice to getthere.
So just perseverance and sheerpower of will and I'm stubborn,
so pushing myself to do it isreally how I got there.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Well, I'm glad you did.
I'm glad you did, Carrie.
I'd love to continue exploringyour career projects, industry
involvement, publications, aswell as your future vision for
the AEC industry.
Does that sound fun?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
All right.
As the associate dean ofresearch in the College of Built
Environments at the Universityof Washington, and with an
adjunct professor appointment inthe Department of Civil and
Environmental Engineering, canyou elaborate on your current
role and key responsibilitiesyou hold with these positions?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yes, so I wear at least two hats at work a
professor hat and a and theassociate dean hat.
And as a professor, I'm aprofessor in construction
management as my primaryappointment and then adjunct
faculty in civil andenvironmental engineering,
secondary or adjunct.
So I have teaching, researchand service work.
(17:25):
So I teach classes, I advisestudents and I do research in my
lab and I do service, meaning Ispend time in committees and
working with journals externalto the university and the
national BIM standard is one ofthose services.
It's kind of a combination ofservice and research role for me
(17:48):
In my associate dean rolethat's working at the college
level and our college has fivedepartments and so I'm an
associate dean for research.
So I focus on the researchmission of the college and try
to promote and extend and expandand network all of the college
researchers and help supporttheir work and help communicate
(18:09):
their work and extend their work.
So I get to think aboutresearch at this bigger scale
and the impact of research at abigger scale across the whole
college.
I found it to be a lot of fun.
I really enjoy the work.
There's some infrastructurebuilding where you're doing
policies and procedures which Inever thought I'd be into.
(18:31):
In fact, that's another no Iused.
I said, ah, I never do policyand here I am doing policy.
And then I'm also helpingnetwork, so meeting with people
from across the campus andhelping connect the researchers
in my college to their programsor within that network.
I'm mentoring researchers towrite proposals and grants and
(18:53):
help disseminate the findings,building mentoring programs.
So there's all kinds of greatwork that happens at the
associate dean role.
So it's lots and lots and lotsof big and small tasks and a lot
of juggling.
So I get to use my projectmanagement skills to manage all
(19:14):
of those pieces and I have somereally great staff that I work
with that help keep it allstraight as well.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
So earlier you mentioned geeking out on
engineering.
Could we geek out on P6?
P6 scheduling?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Sure, I don't know if we want to mention names, but I
don't use P6 for my internaltask management tools.
But I have a soft spot.
I used to be a scheduler inindustry, so I do enjoy a good
construction schedule.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Sure, yeah, you're welcome to mention any tool that
you prefer.
I'm sure the audience wouldlove to hear what's actively
used out there.
But I'd really be interested indiving into you being the vice
chair of the National DEMStandard US Planning Committee
and there's a new version comingout.
We'd really love to hear yourinvolvement in that.
What brought you into theinvolvement there, how the
(20:08):
collaboration formed for that V4and what it looks like and
where you are today with it.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yeah, I have a long history with the National
Institute of Building Sciences.
I started with the National DEMStandard and V2.
When I started my research inBIM I realized I wanted to know
more about national trends andwhat's happening, and so I
volunteered to be on thetechnical subcommittee for V2.
(20:39):
And then I ended up on theNational BIM Guide for Owners
Committee and was one of theauthors on that product and then
dabbled in various other rolesand then, for version four of
the National DEM Standard, wasfirst the chair and now the vice
chair of the Planning Committee.
So in the heart of the work ofsetting the vision for the
(21:04):
national standard for the UnitedStates and navigating and
supporting the writing of theproducts that are just about to
be published from that effort.
So there's a lot to talk aboutwithin all of that journey.
(21:24):
What I think is interestingabout the US market is it's very
ground up, that kind of like,because we are a federation of
states.
It's almost the industrymirrors that structure where
there's lots of differentindustry groups and different
associations and lots ofdifferent political interests
(21:45):
within the industry.
So what we did when we startedbefore we were looking at D3,
how did it go?
And there was actually a formalassessment of D3 and some
identification of some of theshortfalls of that version, and
so we took that as a lesson andto design the next step.
(22:08):
And the goal right now of thecurrent structure of the
Planning Committee and the BIMCouncil is to create a more
agile system where we createmodules and create a library of
a standard, as opposed to aunified document.
So there's so much to do withinthe BIM environment and really
(22:29):
it's kind of BIM and beyond it'slike digital construction or
digital work and there's so muchto do there that it's not a
single standard but lots ofdifference.
We can envision lots ofdifferent standard components
that need to be internallycoordinated but can be also
standalone products.
So it's now the vision for theNational BIM standard is a
(22:53):
library of standards andguidelines and support products
like spreadsheets and forms thathelp people implement BIM
design, construction andoperations of the built
environments.
So we I was part of designingthe model and the structure of
(23:14):
the organization, creating theplanning, the current formation
of the Planning Committee andthe modules and the working
groups, and there are stillworking groups.
While we're publishing V4,there are still working groups
that are working on futurecontent that are overlapping
right.
We have a line in the sandcalled V4, but there's still
(23:35):
other work continuing and thosemodules may be published in the
interim phase and then anotherwill kind of scoop up all the
modules that are ready and do aV5.
So we're trying to get into aroutine where modules are
independent of the overallversioning process, can publish
at any time, but then eachversion will kind of package up
(23:56):
what's ready.
So that's the structure.
And then in this last phase ofthe V4 development I was the
Planning Committee liaison tothe Project BIM Requirements
Subcommittee and my lab receivedsome funding to support the
writing, the research andwriting of that standard.
(24:19):
So what we did was we collectedexample products from across
the world for BIM requirementsand BIM guidelines.
So we have a whole library ofkind of the best of BIM
requirements for buildings,transportation.
We had a working group thatincludes lots of different
(24:43):
industry experts who were ableto recommend, and we I think we
even put it out to the wholemembership of the Nibs BIM
Council to say you know anybodywho has a BIM requirements
document that they love to useor they think highly of, please
send it to us an example.
And then we did what's called acontent analysis, a research
(25:03):
method where you go in and youanalyze the content of the
documents, and we were able tocreate a set of shared themes
that then became the structureof the soon-to-be-published
project BIM requirements.
Then the subcommittee wedivvied up all those sections
and each subcommittee membertook the examples from the
content analysis and draftedtheir sections.
(25:26):
And then, painfully, we walkedthrough as a committee, line by
line, the whole document andrefined and made it a unified,
unified voice, unified standard.
And we have the standard whichis the requirements for project
BIM requirements.
So it's the necessary elementsthat you need to have in order
(25:51):
to have a comprehensive projectBIM requirement standard or,
sorry, project BIM requirementspecification.
So it would be something you'dhave as part of your contract.
You need to do these things inyour contract and we recognize,
well, just saying that you needsomething maybe not helpful to
the industry where they're likewell, I need this thing, but I
(26:12):
don't know what it is.
So we have a second documentthat's a supporting document,
that's example language of allthe sections, all the required
elements of the project BIMrequirements.
So we have example languagethat will support implementation
.
So if you're an owner whodoesn't have your own language.
You need somewhere to start.
Just pick up our examplelanguage and start there and we
(26:35):
anticipate you need to reviseand edit that example language.
In fact we would call it madlibs, because there would be
some places where you literallyhave to fill in the blank
because to make it generalenough for to be applicable
across the sector.
You know, a bridge is differentthan a road, is different than
(26:59):
a building, is different than afacility.
So you needed, we needed to have, we try to create language that
was universally applicable andthat people could then modify
for their own context and owntheir own own organization and
their own context, projectcontext.
So we hope it's a usefuldocument.
I'm really excited about itbecause it creates a standard
(27:23):
that establishes the kinds ofthe kinds of specifications you
need to do to specify BIM and ona project.
And that's, in our analysis,really needed because we did
this content analysis and wefound even the best of in the
industry was still missing majorcomponents that other best of
(27:45):
had right.
So there was no industryexample that had all the
elements in it.
So I encourage everyone, evenif you are well established and
you have a really greatguideline.
I believe you probably used itin our analysis.
But take our new standard andwalk crosswalk it with yours and
see where your gaps are,because I can guarantee there
(28:07):
are gaps and it'll be reallyhelpful to fill those gaps for
your projects and yourorganization.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Thank you again for stepping us through the, the v4
of the BIM standard, kerry, Iwant to transition to talking a
little bit more about what'shappening in your research lab
today, which really means what'shappening in the future, 10, 20
plus years from now.
So, for as much as you're ableto share, can you please share
about your you being theco-director of the Communication
Technology and OrganizationalPractices Lab in the Center of
(28:34):
Education and Research andConstruction, and what's the
lab's focus?
What are you doing today andwhat are you?
You know, what are you seeingfor the future?
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Thank you.
So, yeah, as we started ourdiscussion, we work on emerging
technologies.
So you will not be surprisedwhen you hear the technologies
we're working on today, whichincludes IoT and digital twins.
Those are kind of some of thehot new terms in the industry
and the new technologytypologies and what I'm seeing.
(29:04):
It is very much a naturalprogression from the BIM work
that we've done and we actuallyhad some energy modeling work
that we've done in the middlethere that I haven't talked
about yet, but that all leads tothis next phase of technology
and the digital twin work.
So we've had a chance to do astudy where we've done a
preliminary study of definingdigital twins in design
(29:26):
construction operations and whatthey are and how they work, and
our current research projectsinclude looking at the work that
it will take to get digitaltwins to work.
So that's kind of coming backto.
You asked about the lab.
So we look at practices and welook at the ways technology is
used in practice.
(29:47):
So organizational issues,communication issues as well as
the technological issues.
So thinking about the work thatpeople do with and around
technology is a focus of thelab's work.
So some of the emerging workthat's happening is we're
looking at organizationalchanges, how team structures
(30:08):
need to change, where we'reintroducing if we think about
the operations of a buildingwe're introducing IT into
systems that didn't typicallyhave internet capabilities.
Right, so we're being able torun window shades or run
lighting, connecting thosethings to the internet.
(30:31):
That introduces all kinds ofinteresting new challenges that
building operators may not havethe skill sets to do.
So it's understanding theircapacity and what they need, but
also thinking about the kindsof teams.
So now you have internetcapabilities in your building
systems, well, now your ITdepartments may be needing to
(30:53):
partner with your buildingoperations.
So a lot of the work that we'vebeen doing over the last, I
would say, five years is lookingat those relationships.
We had a National ScienceFoundation funded project to
look at cybersecurity related toIoT and operations and that was
looking at that teamenvironment and the challenges
of working across disciplines.
(31:17):
And the work that I've donethrough BIM and collaboration
all just naturally leads our labto be really well positioned to
answer those kinds of questions, because we've been studying
people and studying the way theywork together and studying
interdisciplinary collaborationand as well as teaching it.
I'm really proud of one of theclasses we teach here.
(31:38):
That is a collaboration classwith architects, engineers and
contractor construction studentsand they collaborate together
to work on a shared project.
So I've been thinking about notonly how to study it, how to
understand it, give the industryinsight into working across
disciplines, but also thenteaching people to work across
disciplines.
(31:58):
So I have the whole arc thereof the work.
So, yeah, and it's exciting topartner with some new folks
around creating digital twinsand getting into that kind of
painful first step of creating apilot and understanding and
hitting those boundaries of whatthe technology can actually do
(32:20):
and some of the language aroundit, some of the work around it
is very reminiscent of theprevious cycles that I've
experienced the first cycle of3D, cad and databases in the
process of power sector 90s, bimin the 2000s.
Right, here we are in thisdigital twin cycle.
I'm like, yeah, this soundsfamiliar, like these cycles are.
(32:41):
There's some things that aredifferent, but some things are
very familiar with the way thattechnology is introduced into
the space, the way people debateand discuss and struggle to
implement it.
All of those have some morepatterns.
So what I'm excited about isworking with my colleague, gina
(33:01):
Neff, on a new book to talkabout innovation in the industry
.
So that is probably a year outfrom publication, but maybe I'll
get to come back and talk aboutmy book because I'm really
excited about where we are goingwith the book and thinking more
holistically and broadly, notjust about BIM, but about how an
industry innovates and wherethose tension points and
(33:26):
challenges are at all of thelevels, because social
scientists have really greatways of thinking about
technology change in terms ofthe practices and structures and
rules of the way that we worktogether.
So the book hopefully willbring insight across the
(33:46):
industry in terms of helping usanswer as an industry why it's
actually so hard to implementtechnology.
Well, I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Now you would love to have you back and I feel like
there's so much that you and Icould talk about.
I'm just so thrilled to pickany topic and sort of you know,
play tennis with you.
In a sense, I love the factthat you're looking at you know,
if I may in my own words, youknow, you're looking at digital
twins and say, okay, you knowhow, what?
(34:19):
Like you said, what is thepractical practice of digital
twins?
How can the industry apply it?
It's a great idea, great, youknow.
Great concept.
It will serve a lot of purposes, bring a lot of benefits.
But in practice, what can theindustry do?
And I love that you'reconnecting that dot, because
that's a very big bridge tobuild, and I love that you're
building that bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Thank you.
Yeah, as you can tell, I'mpretty excited about the work,
so always happy to have aconversation about it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Cool, well, I want to start to look into the future a
little bit here, if you couldshare, outside of the
construction space and all ofthe successful success that
you've had in your career.
What other passions andinterests have you explored?
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Well, no, but I know that I have a secret identity.
I'm actually also a moderndancer.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Very cool which dance style.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Oh well, modern and contemporary dance.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Oh, okay, okay, modern is the style itself.
Got it.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, yeah.
So in I grew up dancing ballet,tep, jazz and then I went to
school in New York so I had achance to dance there and I've
just kept kept it up.
So I have a small dance companyand we make dances together and
perform.
So it's a wonderful balance ofthe you know, artistic brain and
(35:41):
the engineering brain and Ifind that keeping dance in my
life has been really helpful tokeep keep me creative, help me
being balanced, and I also havethis wonderful network of dance
friends that I wouldn'totherwise know because we're
connected through our dancepassion.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
So that's incredible.
Even the whole other angle thatI look forward to exploring
with you.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
You surprised yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I mean, I clearly haven't heard of or, can say,
explored, modern dance, but I'veexplored other forms of dance
that I've really enjoyed as welland in my mind I was seeing
those as modern.
So I'm even, you know, I'minterested in diving deeper into
you know, what does modern mean.
But I can imagine now I've seen, you know, clips of videos of
(36:29):
you know, you know, dancemethods in in New York City
specifically, and you know justhow, I guess, maybe outside of
the box, they might, they mightbe be represented as Well, the
famous names you might knowMartha Graham, marce Cunningham,
alvin Ailey those are some ofthe early developers of modern
(36:54):
modern dance and todaycontemporary dance is is more
the term that people use in theeveryday performance.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Performance of this modern slash, contemporary space
.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So yeah, Well, thank you for sharing that and
congratulations on your successwith your alternate identity.
Sounds like any hat.
We, we, you know the world hasyou where the universe has you,
where you'd be successful init's.
It's absolutely outstanding.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's been.
It's been a really great partof my life, so I'm glad to keep
keep it going.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
As a final question of the show and a tradition of
future construct, if you couldproject yourself out 25 years
and wanted to have any devicetechnology that would benefit
you personally, what would it beand what would it do?
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I initially didn't like this question and then I
decided that I really like thisquestion, and the reason I
really like this question isbecause I can think of what we
really need now, but it probablywon't happen until the future
is getting the right informationat the right time.
So I think we are just barragedwith information.
(38:03):
I've been trying to like figureout better ways of managing my
email and going on to LinkedInand going on to Facebook or
whatever your social mediaplatform of choices and you're
just barraged with random ideasand thoughts all day long and I
don't necessarily when I'mlooking, opening these, these
tools, I'm not getting theinformation kind of when I need
(38:25):
it and I'm constantly parsingthrough information that is is
feels like randomizing my day,like oh, this random thing just
came in, and even like the textmessages that you get every all
day long and email is in arandom order list.
So I would love a technologythat serves up the information
(38:45):
when I need it.
So, if I'm ready to sit downand relax, okay, give me my
socials.
Okay, now I'm ready to thinkabout teaching.
Okay, where are my students?
What are they doing?
Right?
Okay, now I need to think aboutmy research.
Okay, where's this project?
What's happening with that?
I would love to have that kindof information.
I think everybody you know intheir jobs and in their personal
(39:07):
lives would love to be servedup the information of interest
kind of when they're ready toconsume it, as opposed to having
to constantly parse throughinformation all day long and,
and you know, when we're doingour work, trying to find the
document or the piece ofinformation or document
management.
Information management is stillsuch a big part of the task and
(39:30):
the technologies we havecurrently are only helping us
get there a little bit.
You know we're trying tocentralize, we're trying to
create a single source of truthfor information, but it's still
a long ways from getting it toreally work for us, I think.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Well, I love that and I can't wait for the day either
.
I think that's gonna be areally, really exciting day, and
hopefully it shows up soonerthan we know it for the better.
And with that, I want to thankyou so much for your time.
Congratulations on all of youraccomplishments.
I really enjoyed delving intowho you are as a person and your
experience and background.
(40:07):
Thank you for joining us onFuture Construct today.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Thank you for having me.
It's been fun.
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