August 14, 2024 • 37 mins
Have you ever wondered how accumulated data from past projects can transform the future of construction? Join us in this fascinating episode of the Future Construct Podcast, where we promise you'll gain invaluable insights from our special guest, Steve Whitmer, Construction Technology Manager, VDC at ACCO Engineering Systems. Steve charts his inspiring path from an engineering student with hands-on skills to a pivotal figure in the BIM and VDC fields. He shares his journey of overcoming initial skepticism towards the HVAC industry and discovering a passion for making engineering truly constructible.
We dive deep into the potential of leveraging VDC workflows and data to maximize project efficiency. Steve provides a compelling look at the importance of unifying disparate data sources and how tools like Power BI can create dashboards that lead to actionable insights. He also emphasizes the critical role of leadership in VDC coordination, discussing the essential steps for setting effective metrics and the need for a blend of design and construction BIM understanding. This episode is packed with strategies to enhance productivity and manage costs effectively.
Wrapping up, we explore groundbreaking advancements in construction technology over the past 14 years, from the optimization of fabrication and installation to the use of total stations and the emerging role of robots. Steve shares his vision on the practical applications of AR and VR and the transformative potential of AI in automating tasks. We also delve into the importance of fostering a collaborative culture within teams to minimize rework and enhance overall efficiency. Don't miss this opportunity to learn from a leading expert about how BIM and VDC are revolutionizing the construction industry. Tune in and get ready to be inspired!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Future Construct Podcast, where we
explore the latest innovationsand trends shaping the
construction industry.
I'm your guest host, mark Oden,the CEO of BIM Designs Inc.
Today we have a special guest,steve Whitmer, construction
Technology Manager, vdc at AkkoEngineered Systems.
Akko Engineered Systems iscurrently ranked one of the top
mechanical firms by ENR in theUnited States and Steve has been
(00:28):
with Akko for 14 years andhelps their team employ BIM to
assist with purchasing, tracking, material, fieldwork and more.
Steve has also been interviewedand published by the Autodesk
team in 2020.
And I'm so excited to dive intohis journey and insights.
Thank you for your manycontributions to the AC industry
and welcome Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you, mark, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, let's get it started.
You've had an extensive careerin the BIM and BDC field,
working across various rolesfrom designer to BIM manager,
from your early years, even fromchildhood.
I'd love to hear what sparkedyour initial interest in the
construction and technologyspace, and how has your journey
evolved over years.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Sure, well, basically my journey really started, I'd
say, when I was in college and Iwas an engineering student.
I always liked very hands-onand more geared towards the
hands-on side of things ratherthan more of the calculation
side of things.
And when I was in college Iwould take a lot of classes.
(01:29):
I really liked the labs and,like I said, more of the
hands-on things.
And I remember I had an HVACclass at one point and I thought
that is the one thing I don'twant to do as a mechanical
engineer student is to be in theHVAC industry, because it
seemed a little bit of a bore tome because you're really in my
mind at the time it was you'reselecting things off of a shelf
and applying it to a building.
There's not really like.
You know, when you're incollege you're thinking about
(01:49):
hey, who's going to develop thenext new nuclear sub or nice
helicopter or something crazylike that?
Nobody really thinks of abuilding as a as a real,
complicated or abstract careeror work.
That was kind of my mindset.
So, of course, getting out ofcollege, first opportunity I had
was to go draw 3D at amechanical firm and I thought,
(02:10):
okay, well, I'm not doingcalculations, stuff like that.
I'm doing a 3D.
But what really entranced mereally on day one was it wasn't
engineering.
There was an engineering was acomponent of it, but it was
really the hands-on part of itof making engineering
constructible.
And the more I got into it andI'm talking in the first few
months it was very clear to methat there was a real big gap
(02:30):
between what was beingengineered and what was actually
being installed in the field.
And I saw myself in theforefront of that because I was
in the model, actually seeinghey, mr Engineer, this is what
your stuff is actually going tolook like, because I was getting
it ready for manufacturing andactual construction down the
road.
So when I got started it wasreally just drawing 3D, but
there was so much insight I gotinto the industry.
I also liked really being themiddleman between engineering
(02:53):
and construction.
I'm not somebody who's everbuilt anything on the
construction side.
I'm also not anybody that'sengineered anything from a
scratch and designed a system,but I've had my foot in both of
them to the point where I canhave very complex, complicated
conversations with both of themto help their day as well as
help my day.
So really I like my rolebecause it's really in between
(03:14):
there and I kind of someplace.
A lot of times it's kind of apeople, person, right, I'm
trying to help an engineer and aconstruction person make their
design, make their product asoptimal as possible.
So I wouldn't say anything thatreally sparked me from
construction that standpoint, Ithink it was a sector that
really had a need for thatbranching and I was able to
(03:35):
provide that kind of more from acommunication and a person
standpoint to be able to tie thetwo together and at the end of
the day think, hey, look, asACCO could benefit this more
than anything because we are adesign build company, right,
we're trying to get as much aswe can out of designers, as much
as we can out of our builders,and here I could be a
instrumental conduit in gettingthe two of those to benefit even
more from each other.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's awesome, steve , so I love the background there
and what brought you intoengineering in college.
So I love the transition fromcollege into, you know, into
working for ATCO.
How about what attracted you toengineering?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I was really good at math and it wasn't anything that
I tried, it was just kind ofinherited.
I guess you'd say my mom waslike man, you should get
engineering.
I'd be honest with you, I wasin high school I didn't know
what an engineer was.
I didn't know what they did.
I was like, hey, there'sengineers out in the world,
there's engineers everywhere,but what exactly do they do?
But when I was in high school Ihad auto shop class, which was
actually we had what we calledROP, which is off site, where we
(04:31):
had to go to a place and wejust I worked on cars for about
three or four hours and I reallyenjoyed the hands-on taking
things apart, putting them backtogether, seeing how things
worked and I think that reallysparked a little bit more.
Like I said, when I got to thecollege and engineering side of
things, that's what I reallyenjoyed was a hands-on labs, cad
classes, anything that we couldactually take a piece of, piece
(04:51):
of measure or something,something that we had to do
physically rather than justtyping things or looking things
up in a book and gettingreference information.
That's really what excited meVery cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that, steve.
And then I understand you're ina fairly new role as the
construction technology managerfor VDC, is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
ago to talk about having a team with a mechanical
contractor that is really justgeared towards development and
overall operational tracking ofpotential tools and workflows
out there is really kind ofdifferent to ACCO.
Like I said, 10 or 15 years agoI wouldn't even have thought it
would be possible.
Nowadays it's almost anecessity because of the amount
of technology that's changing.
The amount of catering I wouldsay catering, I would say more
(05:51):
of customizing off-the-shelfproducts to make it actually
work for a productive workflowfor a company, particularly of
our size, takes a team, takes adepartment.
So yeah, we have started thatand I think I kind of hit on
this earlier.
But I think part of whatthrusted me into this position
was really I tell people all thetime I bring people together, I
get the right people in theroom from construction, from the
(06:13):
field, from the shop, fromproject management side, and a
lot of times I'm just kind ofmoderating conversation to keep
it going but then taking notesof action items, of how
technology could then spearheadwhatever kind of conversation
we're having or whatever we'relooking to tackle.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Beautiful and I, too care so much about collaboration
and the interworking of teams,and I'm excited about speaking
with you about your views andphilosophies on collaboration
later in the show For theconstruction technology
department.
What opportunities do you seein leveraging VDC workflows and
data beyond the traditional usesthat you know have been
(06:51):
explored over the last 10 to 15years, as you mentioned, and how
do you plan to explore themlooking into the future?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Right now it's all about data and you know we've
done very well for the past Idon't know 20 years modeling and
coordinating and optimizingfrom design to construction, as
best we can to facilitate thatabout the data right, passing
(07:26):
that data up through purchasing,up through operational, into
the ERP to get metrics forhistorical information that we
shouldn't really have to berecycling or putting in another
format.
We have all the data and all ofour models of what we've used,
how long it took to install, howlong it take to fabricate.
So, actually using all thatdata as a tool to then direct
our decisions going forward,right, how long does it take to
fabricate things?
We have that information, butthe challenge is getting all the
(07:49):
data in one common format orone common way, where then we're
able to extract metrics out ofthis shotgun of data from all
over the place.
That's the real challenge andthat's kind of part of that's a
lot of my work.
Now is hey, we get all this data, we have all this data for
fabrication, production.
What do we do with it?
What do we want to do with it?
(08:09):
You know, what metrics do wewant to set?
What's relative to us?
It's a lot of data and we spenta lot of time collecting it.
Well, now you know, we reallyhave to have a good vision of
what to do with it to really getthe benefit that we're looking
for out of it.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Very exciting.
So that's a lot of yourday-to-day now.
I'm super thrilled to reconnect, hopefully in the future, a
year or two out, where you'reable to say, hey, our team has
made all of these impressivefoundational decisions and how
to manage the data.
This is the visibility the teamhas now and the decisions that
the team's looking to make basedon that.
It's very exciting to liveinside of the data.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's kind of where we'regetting to right now.
We're getting our feet wet withBI and Power BI and trying to
create dashboards for recipients, but a lot of that is sitting
down sketching that out.
What do you guys want to see?
How do you want to see it?
How often do you want to haveupdates?
All of those what I call groundrules.
The more we figure that out onthe front end, the less rework I
(09:06):
got to do once we get thisthing up and running.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, great, and there's so many great big data
tools out there in addition toPower BI, that sort of feed you
know process that data and feedit up to Power BI.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Exactly, Exactly.
I mean we've even started tohave conversations about BI
programming.
Do we need in-housecapabilities?
Do we need to partner withsomebody else?
Because the potential there isso massive, we really see it as
a need that we're going to haveto fill.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Very cool.
I'm excited that you get tolead this charge, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I'm taking classes right now so I'm a little
nervous because I'm not aprogrammer, but I am excited to
see it from the infancy andactually understand how to
massage the data rather thanbeing dependent on Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So stepping at the, in addition to the data
component that we sort ofstepped you know, stepped
outside of BIM, for which youknow it all is related.
You have so much experiencewith BIM from, you know, from an
early entry level.
Can you share some key insightsor lessons that you've learned
along the way that have shapedyour approach to implementing
these workflows effectively?
Workflows?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
effectively.
Yeah, I mean really, when itcomes to BIM, it's all about
productivity.
I tell people very often BIMand the VDC workflow can be a
black hole for cost and tocontrol that cost can be
extremely challenging.
There's a lot of factors thatcome into play.
When, in VDC coordinationthere's internal factors about
(10:31):
hey, how is my design, how is myinformation about?
Do I have information to modeland to continue coordination,
that's challenging enough.
But then there's externalfactors which make it even more
complicated and complex withoutside vendors, outside
contractors, leadership of theprocess that's not sufficient.
(10:51):
Leadership of the processthat's not sufficient.
So, really, when it comes to VDC, I actually did a session.
That's where I actually metLuke was a session out at MCAA
and that's what the conversationwas.
It was all around coordinationmeetings and how to make
coordination meetings effective,because in the heart of VDC and
the coordination aspect of itis an overall organized workflow
(11:13):
and organized system and youhave to have leadership that
goes along with it.
You have to have somebody intheir quarterbacking making sure
that people are being heldaccountable, making sure that
people are staying on task andalso making sure that they're
funneling out all the noise fromthe outside about changes about
what every people need you know.
To block all that out, to stayon schedule through a VDC
coordination is very complicated.
(11:35):
So really what I stress topeople is understand the
entirety of the VIM workflow,understand what design VIM is,
understand what construction VIMis there is a difference there
and then once again, being ableto efficiently manage that is
the key to having to reallycontrolling your costs when it
comes to the whole coordinationand the VDC cycle.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, so much of what you just said, Steve, is music
to my ears, considering the lastmany years of running this
company and helping it grow andnavigating these complexities in
both internal processes andexternal processes.
And for the audience, just aside note there Steve had
mentioned meeting Luke.
He's our head of businessdevelopment and amazingly
gregarious and caring individualthat had the opportunity to get
(12:18):
to know Steve earlier this yearat the MEP Innovation
Conference.
I'd love to dive more into yourtransformation into BIM and the
construction technology, yourthought leadership at ECHO, and
also get into collaboration andtalking about futures a bit.
So, to kick it off after thebreak, you and I were actually
just talking about the MEPInnovation Conference just
(12:41):
before the break and Iunderstand that you were a
speaker this past January with asession on running better
coordination meetings.
So I'm very curious, and I'msure our listeners are as well
what would you say are the topthree takeaways from that
presentation?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, as we were talking before, coordination
meetings can really dictate howproductive we are at BIM, and I
always tell people the biggestrisk to BIM is rework.
Right, I can tell people howlong to model something and tell
how long to get it in there.
It's hard to tell somebody howlong it's going to take to
coordinate, how many times theyhave to redraw something that
(13:16):
they're going to be redesignedwith.
So being able to control thatis really one of the biggest
messages.
The first thing I would say isleadership Having somebody on
that team that is spearheadingthe effort, that is overseeing
the team to, once again, makesure people are being productive
, to make sure that people arebeing held accountable for
whether it be uploads orcommitments they've made.
(13:37):
Every person is dependent onthe other.
When you get into thesemeetings right, you can't sign
off a floor until every trade iscomplete in many cases.
So you know, having everyonekeep up and keep pace for the
most part takes a bit of aperson with good communication
skills, a bit of a background,to kind of push them of like,
(13:57):
hey look, we need to keep ontask here.
Also, a person that's able torelay information in and out,
right, there could be like I wassaying earlier.
There's noise outside ofchanges going on.
Well, is that really relativeto the team?
In many cases, this leader hasto be the quarterback to
designate, hey, whether we'regoing to take a change, whether
it makes sense now, and alsobetween the team.
(14:19):
Right, if we know that areasaren't designed, why are we
having people model them or evencoordinate them?
If there's other places in thebuilding that are fully designed
, let's concentrate there.
So the other message here isthat leadership needs to know
the job right.
They need to be fluent with it.
It can't be something they'rejust looking at on the screen an
hour or two a week.
They need to know you know,even as an MEP coordinator which
(14:41):
really what these people are,who are running these jobs.
They're now an MEP coordinator.
They need to know the MEPsystems.
They need to know the buildingso that they can then help
advise on not just necessarilyyou know what to draw and how to
draw it but the strategy of it.
Right, if you know things aregoing to be sequenced and
coordinated a certain way, well,maybe you're releasing the
trade who's on the top to modeltheir systems first, and then
(15:04):
the trade after that.
You know, we're in this mindsetwhere everybody has let's just
I'm just throwing out durationstwo weeks to go model a floor,
right, go back to your officeand model for two weeks and then
come to me in two weeks andgive me a model and I'm going to
show you all your problems.
Well, we could be much moreefficient with that right.
That's very siloed and Iguarantee you when they're in
those silos they're not lookingoutside their window of what
(15:24):
else they could be running into.
So having a coordination plan isanother big one.
Understanding, if you have acorridor, look at that corridor
and find out where things aregoing to be.
I tell people like, hey, youdon't need to model a whole
building to figure out where youhave problems with it.
We could pull a design modelout of Revit and just say, hey
look, all these trades didn'tcoordinate, they stacked it all
together.
They're going to be in the samespot when you guys model it,
(15:45):
where they put you.
We don't need to go through atwo-week exercise to just come
back to that same resolution oflike hey look, we have a problem
in this corridor.
So think those things out alittle bit on the front end,
right?
Hey, we took a section of thiscorridor and figured out where
people are.
Then when that guy goes andmodels, he's actually
coordinating while he's modeling.
He's not just modeling, he'scoordinating while he's modeling
because he's in a spot he'ssupposed to be in and that also
(16:06):
tells that person that when theyget out of that zone they
probably need to look aroundthem because they're now getting
into somebody else's area.
So just being a little bitsmarter about how we model and
how we coordinate really needsto be on the forefront of not
just the leadership but theteam's agenda when they're going
through coordination.
And then the last one is alwaysthe most difficult is how to
deal with change management.
(16:27):
When you've got a new set ofdrawings coming in or hey, this
over here pinning an RFI answerhow that's going to be dealt
with and all of these items,whether it be coordination plan,
change documentation, the realpiece of advice I give people is
have a plan for these kinds ofthings going in.
Make it part of your executionplan.
Tell the team how you're goingto coordinate it If you're going
(16:49):
to have them stage out modelingand modeling it in little areas
at a time so they can kind ofsequence it out, tell them that
and have that on the front endso they know what's going to be
happening and how thatcoordination to come together.
Have them come together in thebeginning of every level and say
, hey, what information do youhave?
What information do you nothave?
What areas kind of fuzzy to youBecause once again we've got an
entire floor to look at.
It doesn't mean we have to bein this spot.
(17:10):
We can look.
We've got three weeks topartake the floor.
We can be in other areas doingother things that are more
productive than looking atsomething that might change next
week.
So really just having your headscrewed on straight, having a
good plan and thinking thosethings through is really the
advice I give people.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, steve, just tremendous.
I mean I'm soaking it all in.
You know lots of experiences,lots of projects that you've
clearly worked on to put theselessons learned together and
you're a great advocate for theindustry and what the industry
needs.
So thank you for bringing yourbest and for presenting at the
recent MEP Innovation ConferencePardon me, I appreciate that
(17:44):
Well.
Again, speaking of yourexperience and 14 years at ACCO,
what have been some of the mostsignificant changes or
advancements that you'vewitnessed within the industry
and how have they influencedyour approach to BIM
implementation?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Well, I've seen a lot being in the BIM industry.
Like I said, when I startedwith ACCO I modeled.
Basically.
Those entire 14 years have allbeen in BIM in some kind of
facet to it.
Some kind of facet to it.
The easy stuff sorry, the easystuff that we've done
(18:19):
optimization of fabrication,optimization of installation
right, getting things that we'remodeling to get it to be more
accurate, to get to have it,more quality control before it
gets fabricated, before it getson site those are things that
are bread and butter to ACCO andare direct or direct benefits
that we get just from executingwork Right.
We're trying to execute workmore efficiently.
What we do that by installingand fabricating better and then
(18:42):
leads directly into that becausewe're able to visualize it,
we're able to plan it.
All of our material, all of our, all of our actual known, what
we're going to purchase, we'regoing to install, is, is to
install, is available throughthe data and everything with
that.
So that continues to advancebut is at the heart of what we
do Around that.
The other things that we see inthe construction industry is
(19:05):
really also centered around BIMpulling more information out,
total stations, taking outpoints, automatic layout,
getting those out to the field.
So we're taking points forinserts, sleeves, taking out
points, automatic layout,getting those out to the field.
So we're taking points forinserts, sleeves, housekeeping
pads anything that a personwants to lay out in the field,
they can do through this totalstation.
Now we've been doing that for10 or 15 years.
I wouldn't say that's a newertechnology, but even that
(19:27):
process has been more optimized.
As we go, more items are beinglaid out, more situations right.
We have advancements like acouple of automation robots.
Dusty Tool has one, hp has onethat is now taken to the next
level where instead of justhaving a human out there laying
out points that have beendictated in BIM, but now a robot
(19:48):
doing that and actually goingout and tracing those locations
out on the floor.
But there are some goodapplications to that and support
applications to that.
We've seen a lot ofadvancements on that and, to be
honest with you, that's going tocontinue to progress.
We've seen some advancementsaround AR and VR but I would say
(20:08):
still on the actual job siteitself it's still a little bit
light as far as actualimplementation.
We've actually kind of foundthat the virtual environment is
good for training on safety andtraining on more practical
workflows that aren'tnecessarily construction site
relative Maybe it's a shop,maybe it's something more in the
office, but using thatenvironment to do that rather
(20:36):
than what we would say is, youknow, 10, 15 years ago, oh,
these guys who were walkingaround one day without a piece
of paper, they're going to seetheir model and their shop
drawing visually as they walkthrough there.
Well, I've seen tools like thatwhich, yes, they could get
there one day, but we haven'treally seen that practically
pushed out to the field yet.
Yeah, that kind of stuff laserscanning, you can imagine.
Now we're getting a ton into AIand really where AI is centered
(20:57):
around is a lot of automationand things that we can automate.
I was mentioning earlier thatwe're getting into like
programming and things like that.
Well, ai is really helping that, because we may not need as
robust of a programming team ifwe're able to utilize AI to help
out with those kinds of things.
But, to be honest with you, thetechnology we look at is kind
of on all fronts.
It's really across the board.
(21:17):
Even in some cases we'relooking at different materials
for products.
Is sheet metal really going tobe the product of choice in 15,
20 years?
Or is there something newer andmore advanced out there as well
?
All of those.
You should see the stuff thatcomes across my desk from a
month-to-month basis.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, I just can't imagine the role that you're in
and the excitement in that role,especially beyond the cutting
edge of the technology and theworkflows and the processes.
You had talked about some ofthe low-hanging fruit, like
optimization of fabrication andinstallation and, depending on
where any firm is at any time,they may not have yet entered
into the field of using BIM tooptimize fabrication
installation.
They may not have yet enteredinto the field of using BIM to
optimize fabricationinstallation.
(21:53):
So you know, just looking atsome of those early on items
that ACCO hit, what would yousay were some lessons learned
from, you know, from theimplementation of that?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And how did you move to tracking parts and pieces and
how do you bring efficiency tothat?
Yeah, sure, no-transcriptfabricate off-site and then
expedite as much you can on-siteby having as big a package as
possible.
So a lot of the learning curvewe had was a lot of it's around
logistics.
(22:29):
You know what size of materialcan show up on a site.
Is there an elevator that'sonly eight foot long?
Well, if there's an elevatoreight foot long, then we should
be putting out spools that are10 feet and 12 feet long.
You know those kinds of thingsof more of logistics, of
understanding the siteconditions but not being on site
right, having all thatinformation that funnel its way
not just back to the shop tofabricate, but even back to
(22:51):
detailing, because detailingneeds to know that information
to really be able to execute thework for whatever the
conditions on site would be.
So it's a lot of that kind oflogistics I would say was more
of the learning curve.
We have implemented some shoptracking tools, so we're trying
to go paperless in the shop,which basically means that
anything coming out of BIM isgoing to a cloud environment and
then the guys in the shop arethen executing the work
(23:14):
basically off of iPads, wherethey're getting all the
information for spools, anythingthat they want to be
fabricating off it comes fromiPads also allows them to
interact with it, to starttimers, stop timers, which gives
us a ton of data of what workthey're doing, how long they're
doing it, which really feedsinto more of our metrics about
throughput to the shop andunderstanding how much material
(23:34):
we could push through it when weneed to, but also understanding
, kind of from the estimatingside, what are our quantifiable
values when it comes to shopproductivity and what to expect
out of there, because obviouslyit comes very important when it
comes to the estimating side ofthings.
The tracking material is, Iwould say, still a bit of a
(23:54):
challenge.
It's actually something that wekind of have on one of our
constant lists of how can weimprove upon it.
Really, our tracking is reallycentered all around free
fabrication and spools, what wecall marks on the sheet metal
side of where those are.
Um, where we, where we have abit of work to do, I would say,
is on more of the parts andpieces.
(24:15):
Hey, you know this job, youknow bim, bim and echo is really
geared towards very large jobs.
Right, these massive jobs, gotall these kinds of things.
But we also, you know, most ofthe actual jobs quantity wise,
and echo are very large jobsright, these massive jobs,
you've got all these kinds ofthings.
But we also, you know, most ofthe actual jobs quantity-wise at
Aqua are very small jobs withsmall service jobs, smaller jobs
.
So on those ends where we'rejust handing a couple of parts
and pieces, that's where thetracking really comes a little
(24:35):
bit more cumbersome of.
Okay, did these four parts goout to this job, did these ones
go out to these jobs?
And actually kind ofcoordinating that rather than
this massive mark of all thematerial we just bought went out
to this job, because it's veryeasy to quantify and to track,
you know.
But all of that coming back, howdo we deal out the data?
Is pretty much a constantquestion that we're asking
ourselves.
How are we getting that data?
(24:57):
How are we able to acquire it?
In our sheet metal shop they'retracking things by barcodes,
right?
Everything is tied to a barcodescanning coming off the machine
to when they start putting ittogether.
That all ties back to theirtime sheets.
But what does that dataactually do for us to build out?
It's kind of the conversationwe have, or what does that data
mean, you know?
Do we need to shift our shoparound?
Because some of that datathat's really what we're trying
(25:18):
to get is to not just have it,but to be able to consume it and
understand where it needs todirect us.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Absolutely.
Yeah, thank you so much forthat context and background.
I feel that there's so much tolearn in the optimization, in
the implementation of BIM andhow it can bring the benefits of
fabrication installation andthen use the tools like total.
How it enables the use of toolslike the total total station
layouts like you're talkingabout, or or the robotics and
(25:45):
then and then bringing in youknow more of the software
components to it, like AI, tothen analyze the data that
you're speaking about.
So it's just, it's incredibleto you know, be speaking with
you where your firm is.
You know, at the forefront ofthis leadership is defining how
to bring these tools andimplement that into the
workflows.
(26:06):
That, to me, is just thrillingthat you get to live in that
space.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, I tell people really our customers are our
shop and our field, so we'retrying to get as much input from
them to optimize the product.
We don't dictate what they get,they dictate what we create is
really the angle we're trying toget right, because everything
that we're doing in thedetailing side should benefit
those guys.
So we're just trying tooptimize as much as possible.
You're asking earlier aboutkind of how we some learning
(26:35):
lessons, like, for instance, weprefabricate all of our hangers
and some jobs we have likethousands of hangers.
Well, it's very clear early onlike you can't just send
thousands of hangers out to ajob site and say here's your
hangers, no-transcript.
(27:08):
At the end of the day, like Isaid, our customer is the field.
If my customer is four guysstanding around, they're trying
to figure out what to do with athousand hangers, compared to
four people installing hangers.
The second that it shows up onthe site I have my customers are
much more efficient.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Great lesson, great lesson I I love that viewpoint
too uh, for your detailingdepartment, that it shows up on
the site.
My customers are much moreefficient.
Great lesson, great lesson, andI love that viewpoint too for
your detailing department.
So earlier in the podcast, youand I were talking about
collaboration and how it's apassion of yours and it's a
passion and it's a necessity inthe successful implementation of
the BIM process.
So how do you foster a cultureof collaboration and knowledge
sharing within your team andacross different departments at
(27:44):
ATCO and across coordinationteams, across different
companies?
You know, help me understandhow you bring that passion to
life.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, it's definitely a challenge.
You know, we live in a in aindustry that is based a lot
around tribal knowledge aboutsomebody that learned, that did
something on a job and theyexecute it.
And the only real way forsomebody else to execute as good
as that person is to thatperson, take them under their
wing and show them, show themhow they do it right, because
that's really where theknowledge is at in those person,
(28:14):
in that person.
And I'll be honest with you, Ikind of consider myself an
outsider because I don't buildanything, I don't design
anything.
So, coming in from the outside,I see that as very inefficient,
right, because now we'rereplicating work in different
places that we really shouldn'thave to be if we had that
integrated culture.
So that's really what Ispearhead here at ACCO.
It's like, hey, guys, we havepeople that are experts that
(28:37):
have been are experts inengineering.
They've been engineering for 20years.
We also have experts over herethat have been constructing
stuff for 20 or 30 years as wellfor 20 years.
But we also have experts overhere that have been constructing
stuff for 20 or 30 years aswell.
Like having the two of themtalk, and particularly talk
early on in a project has hugebenefits because we figure out
how we're going to supportsystems, how we're going to lay
out systems very early on.
And we do.
What I hate doing is we?
(28:58):
Well, I love doing this.
We do what.
We ended up alleviating what Idoing is we we?
We get rid of all the rework,right.
There's no sense in usdesigning a whole system just to
hand it over to somebody else.
Down the road in constructionyou go oh, don't build that way,
build this other way, okay.
Well, that means that engineeris already drawn and has to
redraw it, like you're basicallyshooting ourselves in the foot
and having redraws when we couldcontrol that on the front end.
(29:19):
So a lot of what I do do iskind of sell them on
collaboration.
Right, this is in your bestbenefit overall for the project
if you guys were to do this andthat then culminates itself into
an organization or a company,right, if I see best practices,
things going on, I'm one of thepeople who try to magnify that
so that I can get the people'seyes on the other people that
(29:41):
can then influence in otherlocations.
One of our biggest struggleshere at ACCO is we've worked
very silent in the past, so ourLA office may function a bit
different than our Bay Area, butif we're really trying to get
to common manpower that couldsupply for either one of them,
well, some commonality needs tohappen there.
And that's really where Ispearhead myself and say OK,
well, if you were to make thesedecisions, these are your
(30:05):
benefits, right, you'll haveless detailing time, you'll have
less submittal time, you'llhave less purchasing time
because you won't be searchingfor things that are different in
different places.
All of those have tangiblegains.
So really, it's kind of whatI'm kind of alluding to is like
dangle the carrot, give themsome tangible gains of what
they're going to get out of it,and that will foster
collaboration.
(30:25):
And the second part of it isit's it's a diligent.
It's a diligent task.
You know I have to.
I have to coordinate meetings.
And I say coordinate meetings Imean they're like hey, I need
you, you and here at this time,just to make a meeting happen,
to get the right people together.
But I kind of have to kind ofpersonally spearhead that,
(30:45):
because it's not really going tohappen without you know, or if
it does happen, it'll probablytake a lot longer Um and and a
lot a bit of latency built intothat, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for that background.
And, um, and I want to dig alittle bit further into the
human element.
Um, uh, and, and, and it cameup, uh, in my mind earlier as
well how do you best addresstraining and skill development
and change management,especially when you're saying,
for example, the coordinatorreally needs to be knowledgeable
in the space in order to givethe best advice.
(31:13):
So what is your approach tothat?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, specifically for the coordinator task, we sat
down, not just for a day butfor a while, and we wrote out
what a coordinator really, theirresponsibilities are.
And when you look at it,there's two main buckets.
There's the technical side.
They need to know the programs,they need to know the file
types, they need to know how toget things aligned in a model
(31:39):
right.
There's a technical aspect ofjust working in Navisworks,
working in the software thatthey're going to be coordinating
with, whatever they'recoordinating with, revisto or
whatever's the coordinatingplatform.
They got to know that like theback of their hand because
they're the expert people aregoing to turn to.
When a guy in the firesprinkler company is struggling
with, they're going to turn toGC or whoever's running that
coordination.
We can say well, what's goingon here?
Right.
(31:59):
So there's that technical partof it.
But what's even more difficultis the experience and what I
called earlier the MEPcoordination part of it.
Right, you are an MEPcoordinator, or you should be, I
guess.
Ideally, the person that runsthat process is an MEP
coordinator, because they haveto be able to make those kinds
of decisions.
So how does one become a goodMEP coordinator?
(32:20):
That's not something that thereis just books on the shelf to
learn that.
Once again, it's a lot oftribal knowledge.
Right For me to understand howto coordinate mechanical systems
.
I can't just pick up a book andunderstand it.
The reality is you have to sitin a lot of coordination
meetings, you have to interactwith people installing it.
I've been doing this for 15 orso years now.
I've never, like I said,installed any of this kind of
(32:41):
stuff.
But I could tell you how to.
How to draw a whole firesprinkler system or whole
electrical system to a prettygood, pretty good coordination,
coordinatable state.
You know, and I'm going to kindof call you on like hey, you
can, you can do that.
Drop there when you're aplumber because you're going
down great, like there arethings you want to know about
the other trades to helpstrategize and help coordinate
and help push along coordinationin the right direction.
(33:03):
But there's no book out there tojust, hey, here's coordination.
Everything you know about it'sreally knowing construction.
You need to know things aboutdrywall.
You need to know things aboutfire coating on beams out there
that you know when they spraymonocoat.
So it's just a lot of knowledgethat you're not going to get
unless you're sitting in theroom talking to those guys
(33:46):
no-transcript of that mentalityof just learning to adapt and
work with people, like I said,me being in the middle of it, of
engineering and construction Ikind of find myself.
I have the head of an engineerso I can talk with them on that
level of complexity and design,but also kind of have the
(34:07):
attitude of more of aconstruction worker, of kind of
a willy nilly hey, let's, let'sgo, just do the thing.
So I think having a little bitin both of those helps me bring
people like that together.
But yeah, I mean it's, it'sreally just people building and
understanding your relationships.
I mean it's a it's, it's itbuilding and understanding your
relationships.
I mean it's a challenge.
Like I said earlier, it'sprobably one of the bigger
challenges of my career isreally just communication.
(34:29):
I tell people, man, we workwith expensive software probably
some of the most expensivesoftware in the world with
expensive computers, and we workon multi-million dollar super
complex projects that are mostcomplex in the world.
You know, the hardest part ofour job is people.
It's not all that stuff, it'speople, it's working with people
and getting things done with acollaboration and a coordinated
(34:52):
affair.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And thanks for your focus on you know, making sure
that the mindset of the peopleis very strong and your
leadership and driving thecollaboration, and I can you
know I see that passion come outin you and I'm grateful the
industry has you, steve, as afinal question of the show and a
traditional future construct,if you could project yourself
out 25 years and wanted to haveany device technology that would
(35:15):
benefit you personally, whatwould it be and what would it do
?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So I mean, I think this is an easy one.
It's jetpacks, man.
Like where are jetpacks, Evenon a job site, flying around
there?
That's got to be much moreefficient than walking around.
So yeah, I'm still I don't knowhow well my legs are going to
work in 25 years, so I think ajetpack would definitely help.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
For sure Now, is that to get like for the multi-story
building or between buildings?
Yeah, either one, you know.
Above all of the above, verycool.
Yeah, fantastic conversation,steve.
Thank you so much for your timetoday on the future construct
podcast.
Um.
You're the constructiontechnology manager at echo
engineered systems.
Um really enjoyed hearing yourjourney and insights into the
(35:58):
intersection of construction andtechnology.
And to our listeners, staytuned for more captivating
discussions on the futureconstruct podcast until next
time.
Thank you all.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you for having meAppreciate it Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Thank you, Steve.
Welcome to the Future Construct Podcast, where we
explore the latest innovationsand trends shaping the
construction industry.
I'm your guest host, mark Oden,the CEO of BIM Designs Inc.
Today we have a special guest,steve Whitmer, construction
Technology Manager, vdc at AkkoEngineered Systems.
Akko Engineered Systems iscurrently ranked one of the top
mechanical firms by ENR in theUnited States and Steve has been
(00:28):
with Akko for 14 years andhelps their team employ BIM to
assist with purchasing, tracking, material, fieldwork and more.
Steve has also been interviewedand published by the Autodesk
team in 2020.
And I'm so excited to dive intohis journey and insights.
Thank you for your manycontributions to the AC industry
and welcome Steve.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Thank you, mark, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Well, let's get it started.
You've had an extensive careerin the BIM and BDC field,
working across various rolesfrom designer to BIM manager,
from your early years, even fromchildhood.
I'd love to hear what sparkedyour initial interest in the
construction and technologyspace, and how has your journey
evolved over years.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Sure, well, basically my journey really started, I'd
say, when I was in college and Iwas an engineering student.
I always liked very hands-onand more geared towards the
hands-on side of things ratherthan more of the calculation
side of things.
And when I was in college Iwould take a lot of classes.
(01:29):
I really liked the labs and,like I said, more of the
hands-on things.
And I remember I had an HVACclass at one point and I thought
that is the one thing I don'twant to do as a mechanical
engineer student is to be in theHVAC industry, because it
seemed a little bit of a bore tome because you're really in my
mind at the time it was you'reselecting things off of a shelf
and applying it to a building.
There's not really like.
You know, when you're incollege you're thinking about
(01:49):
hey, who's going to develop thenext new nuclear sub or nice
helicopter or something crazylike that?
Nobody really thinks of abuilding as a as a real,
complicated or abstract careeror work.
That was kind of my mindset.
So, of course, getting out ofcollege, first opportunity I had
was to go draw 3D at amechanical firm and I thought,
(02:10):
okay, well, I'm not doingcalculations, stuff like that.
I'm doing a 3D.
But what really entranced mereally on day one was it wasn't
engineering.
There was an engineering was acomponent of it, but it was
really the hands-on part of itof making engineering
constructible.
And the more I got into it andI'm talking in the first few
months it was very clear to methat there was a real big gap
(02:30):
between what was beingengineered and what was actually
being installed in the field.
And I saw myself in theforefront of that because I was
in the model, actually seeinghey, mr Engineer, this is what
your stuff is actually going tolook like, because I was getting
it ready for manufacturing andactual construction down the
road.
So when I got started it wasreally just drawing 3D, but
there was so much insight I gotinto the industry.
I also liked really being themiddleman between engineering
(02:53):
and construction.
I'm not somebody who's everbuilt anything on the
construction side.
I'm also not anybody that'sengineered anything from a
scratch and designed a system,but I've had my foot in both of
them to the point where I canhave very complex, complicated
conversations with both of themto help their day as well as
help my day.
So really I like my rolebecause it's really in between
(03:14):
there and I kind of someplace.
A lot of times it's kind of apeople, person, right, I'm
trying to help an engineer and aconstruction person make their
design, make their product asoptimal as possible.
So I wouldn't say anything thatreally sparked me from
construction that standpoint, Ithink it was a sector that
really had a need for thatbranching and I was able to
(03:35):
provide that kind of more from acommunication and a person
standpoint to be able to tie thetwo together and at the end of
the day think, hey, look, asACCO could benefit this more
than anything because we are adesign build company, right,
we're trying to get as much aswe can out of designers, as much
as we can out of our builders,and here I could be a
instrumental conduit in gettingthe two of those to benefit even
more from each other.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That's awesome, steve , so I love the background there
and what brought you intoengineering in college.
So I love the transition fromcollege into, you know, into
working for ATCO.
How about what attracted you toengineering?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I was really good at math and it wasn't anything that
I tried, it was just kind ofinherited.
I guess you'd say my mom waslike man, you should get
engineering.
I'd be honest with you, I wasin high school I didn't know
what an engineer was.
I didn't know what they did.
I was like, hey, there'sengineers out in the world,
there's engineers everywhere,but what exactly do they do?
But when I was in high school Ihad auto shop class, which was
actually we had what we calledROP, which is off site, where we
(04:31):
had to go to a place and wejust I worked on cars for about
three or four hours and I reallyenjoyed the hands-on taking
things apart, putting them backtogether, seeing how things
worked and I think that reallysparked a little bit more.
Like I said, when I got to thecollege and engineering side of
things, that's what I reallyenjoyed was a hands-on labs, cad
classes, anything that we couldactually take a piece of, piece
(04:51):
of measure or something,something that we had to do
physically rather than justtyping things or looking things
up in a book and gettingreference information.
That's really what excited meVery cool, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Thank you so much for sharing that, steve.
And then I understand you're ina fairly new role as the
construction technology managerfor VDC, is that right?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
ago to talk about having a team with a mechanical
contractor that is really justgeared towards development and
overall operational tracking ofpotential tools and workflows
out there is really kind ofdifferent to ACCO.
Like I said, 10 or 15 years agoI wouldn't even have thought it
would be possible.
Nowadays it's almost anecessity because of the amount
of technology that's changing.
The amount of catering I wouldsay catering, I would say more
(05:51):
of customizing off-the-shelfproducts to make it actually
work for a productive workflowfor a company, particularly of
our size, takes a team, takes adepartment.
So yeah, we have started thatand I think I kind of hit on
this earlier.
But I think part of whatthrusted me into this position
was really I tell people all thetime I bring people together, I
get the right people in theroom from construction, from the
(06:13):
field, from the shop, fromproject management side, and a
lot of times I'm just kind ofmoderating conversation to keep
it going but then taking notesof action items, of how
technology could then spearheadwhatever kind of conversation
we're having or whatever we'relooking to tackle.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Beautiful and I, too care so much about collaboration
and the interworking of teams,and I'm excited about speaking
with you about your views andphilosophies on collaboration
later in the show For theconstruction technology
department.
What opportunities do you seein leveraging VDC workflows and
data beyond the traditional usesthat you know have been
(06:51):
explored over the last 10 to 15years, as you mentioned, and how
do you plan to explore themlooking into the future?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Right now it's all about data and you know we've
done very well for the past Idon't know 20 years modeling and
coordinating and optimizingfrom design to construction, as
best we can to facilitate thatabout the data right, passing
(07:26):
that data up through purchasing,up through operational, into
the ERP to get metrics forhistorical information that we
shouldn't really have to berecycling or putting in another
format.
We have all the data and all ofour models of what we've used,
how long it took to install, howlong it take to fabricate.
So, actually using all thatdata as a tool to then direct
our decisions going forward,right, how long does it take to
fabricate things?
We have that information, butthe challenge is getting all the
(07:49):
data in one common format orone common way, where then we're
able to extract metrics out ofthis shotgun of data from all
over the place.
That's the real challenge andthat's kind of part of that's a
lot of my work.
Now is hey, we get all this data, we have all this data for
fabrication, production.
What do we do with it?
What do we want to do with it?
(08:09):
You know, what metrics do wewant to set?
What's relative to us?
It's a lot of data and we spenta lot of time collecting it.
Well, now you know, we reallyhave to have a good vision of
what to do with it to really getthe benefit that we're looking
for out of it.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Very exciting.
So that's a lot of yourday-to-day now.
I'm super thrilled to reconnect, hopefully in the future, a
year or two out, where you'reable to say, hey, our team has
made all of these impressivefoundational decisions and how
to manage the data.
This is the visibility the teamhas now and the decisions that
the team's looking to make basedon that.
It's very exciting to liveinside of the data.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
That's kind of where we'regetting to right now.
We're getting our feet wet withBI and Power BI and trying to
create dashboards for recipients, but a lot of that is sitting
down sketching that out.
What do you guys want to see?
How do you want to see it?
How often do you want to haveupdates?
All of those what I call groundrules.
The more we figure that out onthe front end, the less rework I
(09:06):
got to do once we get thisthing up and running.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, great, and there's so many great big data
tools out there in addition toPower BI, that sort of feed you
know process that data and feedit up to Power BI.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Exactly, Exactly.
I mean we've even started tohave conversations about BI
programming.
Do we need in-housecapabilities?
Do we need to partner withsomebody else?
Because the potential there isso massive, we really see it as
a need that we're going to haveto fill.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Very cool.
I'm excited that you get tolead this charge, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I'm taking classes right now so I'm a little
nervous because I'm not aprogrammer, but I am excited to
see it from the infancy andactually understand how to
massage the data rather thanbeing dependent on Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So stepping at the, in addition to the data
component that we sort ofstepped you know, stepped
outside of BIM, for which youknow it all is related.
You have so much experiencewith BIM from, you know, from an
early entry level.
Can you share some key insightsor lessons that you've learned
along the way that have shapedyour approach to implementing
these workflows effectively?
Workflows?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
effectively.
Yeah, I mean really, when itcomes to BIM, it's all about
productivity.
I tell people very often BIMand the VDC workflow can be a
black hole for cost and tocontrol that cost can be
extremely challenging.
There's a lot of factors thatcome into play.
When, in VDC coordinationthere's internal factors about
(10:31):
hey, how is my design, how is myinformation about?
Do I have information to modeland to continue coordination,
that's challenging enough.
But then there's externalfactors which make it even more
complicated and complex withoutside vendors, outside
contractors, leadership of theprocess that's not sufficient.
(10:51):
Leadership of the processthat's not sufficient.
So, really, when it comes to VDC, I actually did a session.
That's where I actually metLuke was a session out at MCAA
and that's what the conversationwas.
It was all around coordinationmeetings and how to make
coordination meetings effective,because in the heart of VDC and
the coordination aspect of itis an overall organized workflow
(11:13):
and organized system and youhave to have leadership that
goes along with it.
You have to have somebody intheir quarterbacking making sure
that people are being heldaccountable, making sure that
people are staying on task andalso making sure that they're
funneling out all the noise fromthe outside about changes about
what every people need you know.
To block all that out, to stayon schedule through a VDC
coordination is very complicated.
(11:35):
So really what I stress topeople is understand the
entirety of the VIM workflow,understand what design VIM is,
understand what construction VIMis there is a difference there
and then once again, being ableto efficiently manage that is
the key to having to reallycontrolling your costs when it
comes to the whole coordinationand the VDC cycle.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Well, so much of what you just said, Steve, is music
to my ears, considering the lastmany years of running this
company and helping it grow andnavigating these complexities in
both internal processes andexternal processes.
And for the audience, just aside note there Steve had
mentioned meeting Luke.
He's our head of businessdevelopment and amazingly
gregarious and caring individualthat had the opportunity to get
(12:18):
to know Steve earlier this yearat the MEP Innovation
Conference.
I'd love to dive more into yourtransformation into BIM and the
construction technology, yourthought leadership at ECHO, and
also get into collaboration andtalking about futures a bit.
So, to kick it off after thebreak, you and I were actually
just talking about the MEPInnovation Conference just
(12:41):
before the break and Iunderstand that you were a
speaker this past January with asession on running better
coordination meetings.
So I'm very curious, and I'msure our listeners are as well
what would you say are the topthree takeaways from that
presentation?
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, as we were talking before, coordination
meetings can really dictate howproductive we are at BIM, and I
always tell people the biggestrisk to BIM is rework.
Right, I can tell people howlong to model something and tell
how long to get it in there.
It's hard to tell somebody howlong it's going to take to
coordinate, how many times theyhave to redraw something that
(13:16):
they're going to be redesignedwith.
So being able to control thatis really one of the biggest
messages.
The first thing I would say isleadership Having somebody on
that team that is spearheadingthe effort, that is overseeing
the team to, once again, makesure people are being productive
, to make sure that people arebeing held accountable for
whether it be uploads orcommitments they've made.
(13:37):
Every person is dependent onthe other.
When you get into thesemeetings right, you can't sign
off a floor until every trade iscomplete in many cases.
So you know, having everyonekeep up and keep pace for the
most part takes a bit of aperson with good communication
skills, a bit of a background,to kind of push them of like,
(13:57):
hey look, we need to keep ontask here.
Also, a person that's able torelay information in and out,
right, there could be like I wassaying earlier.
There's noise outside ofchanges going on.
Well, is that really relativeto the team?
In many cases, this leader hasto be the quarterback to
designate, hey, whether we'regoing to take a change, whether
it makes sense now, and alsobetween the team.
(14:19):
Right, if we know that areasaren't designed, why are we
having people model them or evencoordinate them?
If there's other places in thebuilding that are fully designed
, let's concentrate there.
So the other message here isthat leadership needs to know
the job right.
They need to be fluent with it.
It can't be something they'rejust looking at on the screen an
hour or two a week.
They need to know you know,even as an MEP coordinator which
(14:41):
really what these people are,who are running these jobs.
They're now an MEP coordinator.
They need to know the MEPsystems.
They need to know the buildingso that they can then help
advise on not just necessarilyyou know what to draw and how to
draw it but the strategy of it.
Right, if you know things aregoing to be sequenced and
coordinated a certain way, well,maybe you're releasing the
trade who's on the top to modeltheir systems first, and then
(15:04):
the trade after that.
You know, we're in this mindsetwhere everybody has let's just
I'm just throwing out durationstwo weeks to go model a floor,
right, go back to your officeand model for two weeks and then
come to me in two weeks andgive me a model and I'm going to
show you all your problems.
Well, we could be much moreefficient with that right.
That's very siloed and Iguarantee you when they're in
those silos they're not lookingoutside their window of what
(15:24):
else they could be running into.
So having a coordination plan isanother big one.
Understanding, if you have acorridor, look at that corridor
and find out where things aregoing to be.
I tell people like, hey, youdon't need to model a whole
building to figure out where youhave problems with it.
We could pull a design modelout of Revit and just say, hey
look, all these trades didn'tcoordinate, they stacked it all
together.
They're going to be in the samespot when you guys model it,
(15:45):
where they put you.
We don't need to go through atwo-week exercise to just come
back to that same resolution oflike hey look, we have a problem
in this corridor.
So think those things out alittle bit on the front end,
right?
Hey, we took a section of thiscorridor and figured out where
people are.
Then when that guy goes andmodels, he's actually
coordinating while he's modeling.
He's not just modeling, he'scoordinating while he's modeling
because he's in a spot he'ssupposed to be in and that also
(16:06):
tells that person that when theyget out of that zone they
probably need to look aroundthem because they're now getting
into somebody else's area.
So just being a little bitsmarter about how we model and
how we coordinate really needsto be on the forefront of not
just the leadership but theteam's agenda when they're going
through coordination.
And then the last one is alwaysthe most difficult is how to
deal with change management.
(16:27):
When you've got a new set ofdrawings coming in or hey, this
over here pinning an RFI answerhow that's going to be dealt
with and all of these items,whether it be coordination plan,
change documentation, the realpiece of advice I give people is
have a plan for these kinds ofthings going in.
Make it part of your executionplan.
Tell the team how you're goingto coordinate it If you're going
(16:49):
to have them stage out modelingand modeling it in little areas
at a time so they can kind ofsequence it out, tell them that
and have that on the front endso they know what's going to be
happening and how thatcoordination to come together.
Have them come together in thebeginning of every level and say
, hey, what information do youhave?
What information do you nothave?
What areas kind of fuzzy to youBecause once again we've got an
entire floor to look at.
It doesn't mean we have to bein this spot.
(17:10):
We can look.
We've got three weeks topartake the floor.
We can be in other areas doingother things that are more
productive than looking atsomething that might change next
week.
So really just having your headscrewed on straight, having a
good plan and thinking thosethings through is really the
advice I give people.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, steve, just tremendous.
I mean I'm soaking it all in.
You know lots of experiences,lots of projects that you've
clearly worked on to put theselessons learned together and
you're a great advocate for theindustry and what the industry
needs.
So thank you for bringing yourbest and for presenting at the
recent MEP Innovation ConferencePardon me, I appreciate that
(17:44):
Well.
Again, speaking of yourexperience and 14 years at ACCO,
what have been some of the mostsignificant changes or
advancements that you'vewitnessed within the industry
and how have they influencedyour approach to BIM
implementation?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Well, I've seen a lot being in the BIM industry.
Like I said, when I startedwith ACCO I modeled.
Basically.
Those entire 14 years have allbeen in BIM in some kind of
facet to it.
Some kind of facet to it.
The easy stuff sorry, the easystuff that we've done
(18:19):
optimization of fabrication,optimization of installation
right, getting things that we'remodeling to get it to be more
accurate, to get to have it,more quality control before it
gets fabricated, before it getson site those are things that
are bread and butter to ACCO andare direct or direct benefits
that we get just from executingwork Right.
We're trying to execute workmore efficiently.
What we do that by installingand fabricating better and then
(18:42):
leads directly into that becausewe're able to visualize it,
we're able to plan it.
All of our material, all of our, all of our actual known, what
we're going to purchase, we'regoing to install, is, is to
install, is available throughthe data and everything with
that.
So that continues to advancebut is at the heart of what we
do Around that.
The other things that we see inthe construction industry is
(19:05):
really also centered around BIMpulling more information out,
total stations, taking outpoints, automatic layout,
getting those out to the field.
So we're taking points forinserts, sleeves, taking out
points, automatic layout,getting those out to the field.
So we're taking points forinserts, sleeves, housekeeping
pads anything that a personwants to lay out in the field,
they can do through this totalstation.
Now we've been doing that for10 or 15 years.
I wouldn't say that's a newertechnology, but even that
(19:27):
process has been more optimized.
As we go, more items are beinglaid out, more situations right.
We have advancements like acouple of automation robots.
Dusty Tool has one, hp has onethat is now taken to the next
level where instead of justhaving a human out there laying
out points that have beendictated in BIM, but now a robot
(19:48):
doing that and actually goingout and tracing those locations
out on the floor.
But there are some goodapplications to that and support
applications to that.
We've seen a lot ofadvancements on that and, to be
honest with you, that's going tocontinue to progress.
We've seen some advancementsaround AR and VR but I would say
(20:08):
still on the actual job siteitself it's still a little bit
light as far as actualimplementation.
We've actually kind of foundthat the virtual environment is
good for training on safety andtraining on more practical
workflows that aren'tnecessarily construction site
relative Maybe it's a shop,maybe it's something more in the
office, but using thatenvironment to do that rather
(20:36):
than what we would say is, youknow, 10, 15 years ago, oh,
these guys who were walkingaround one day without a piece
of paper, they're going to seetheir model and their shop
drawing visually as they walkthrough there.
Well, I've seen tools like thatwhich, yes, they could get
there one day, but we haven'treally seen that practically
pushed out to the field yet.
Yeah, that kind of stuff laserscanning, you can imagine.
Now we're getting a ton into AIand really where AI is centered
(20:57):
around is a lot of automationand things that we can automate.
I was mentioning earlier thatwe're getting into like
programming and things like that.
Well, ai is really helping that, because we may not need as
robust of a programming team ifwe're able to utilize AI to help
out with those kinds of things.
But, to be honest with you, thetechnology we look at is kind
of on all fronts.
It's really across the board.
(21:17):
Even in some cases we'relooking at different materials
for products.
Is sheet metal really going tobe the product of choice in 15,
20 years?
Or is there something newer andmore advanced out there as well
?
All of those.
You should see the stuff thatcomes across my desk from a
month-to-month basis.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah, I just can't imagine the role that you're in
and the excitement in that role,especially beyond the cutting
edge of the technology and theworkflows and the processes.
You had talked about some ofthe low-hanging fruit, like
optimization of fabrication andinstallation and, depending on
where any firm is at any time,they may not have yet entered
into the field of using BIM tooptimize fabrication
installation.
They may not have yet enteredinto the field of using BIM to
optimize fabricationinstallation.
(21:53):
So you know, just looking atsome of those early on items
that ACCO hit, what would yousay were some lessons learned
from, you know, from theimplementation of that?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
And how did you move to tracking parts and pieces and
how do you bring efficiency tothat?
Yeah, sure, no-transcriptfabricate off-site and then
expedite as much you can on-siteby having as big a package as
possible.
So a lot of the learning curvewe had was a lot of it's around
logistics.
(22:29):
You know what size of materialcan show up on a site.
Is there an elevator that'sonly eight foot long?
Well, if there's an elevatoreight foot long, then we should
be putting out spools that are10 feet and 12 feet long.
You know those kinds of thingsof more of logistics, of
understanding the siteconditions but not being on site
right, having all thatinformation that funnel its way
not just back to the shop tofabricate, but even back to
(22:51):
detailing, because detailingneeds to know that information
to really be able to execute thework for whatever the
conditions on site would be.
So it's a lot of that kind oflogistics I would say was more
of the learning curve.
We have implemented some shoptracking tools, so we're trying
to go paperless in the shop,which basically means that
anything coming out of BIM isgoing to a cloud environment and
then the guys in the shop arethen executing the work
(23:14):
basically off of iPads, wherethey're getting all the
information for spools, anythingthat they want to be
fabricating off it comes fromiPads also allows them to
interact with it, to starttimers, stop timers, which gives
us a ton of data of what workthey're doing, how long they're
doing it, which really feedsinto more of our metrics about
throughput to the shop andunderstanding how much material
(23:34):
we could push through it when weneed to, but also understanding
, kind of from the estimatingside, what are our quantifiable
values when it comes to shopproductivity and what to expect
out of there, because obviouslyit comes very important when it
comes to the estimating side ofthings.
The tracking material is, Iwould say, still a bit of a
(23:54):
challenge.
It's actually something that wekind of have on one of our
constant lists of how can weimprove upon it.
Really, our tracking is reallycentered all around free
fabrication and spools, what wecall marks on the sheet metal
side of where those are.
Um, where we, where we have abit of work to do, I would say,
is on more of the parts andpieces.
(24:15):
Hey, you know this job, youknow bim, bim and echo is really
geared towards very large jobs.
Right, these massive jobs, gotall these kinds of things.
But we also, you know, most ofthe actual jobs quantity wise,
and echo are very large jobsright, these massive jobs,
you've got all these kinds ofthings.
But we also, you know, most ofthe actual jobs quantity-wise at
Aqua are very small jobs withsmall service jobs, smaller jobs
.
So on those ends where we'rejust handing a couple of parts
and pieces, that's where thetracking really comes a little
(24:35):
bit more cumbersome of.
Okay, did these four parts goout to this job, did these ones
go out to these jobs?
And actually kind ofcoordinating that rather than
this massive mark of all thematerial we just bought went out
to this job, because it's veryeasy to quantify and to track,
you know.
But all of that coming back, howdo we deal out the data?
Is pretty much a constantquestion that we're asking
ourselves.
How are we getting that data?
(24:57):
How are we able to acquire it?
In our sheet metal shop they'retracking things by barcodes,
right?
Everything is tied to a barcodescanning coming off the machine
to when they start putting ittogether.
That all ties back to theirtime sheets.
But what does that dataactually do for us to build out?
It's kind of the conversationwe have, or what does that data
mean, you know?
Do we need to shift our shoparound?
Because some of that datathat's really what we're trying
(25:18):
to get is to not just have it,but to be able to consume it and
understand where it needs todirect us.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Absolutely.
Yeah, thank you so much forthat context and background.
I feel that there's so much tolearn in the optimization, in
the implementation of BIM andhow it can bring the benefits of
fabrication installation andthen use the tools like total.
How it enables the use of toolslike the total total station
layouts like you're talkingabout, or or the robotics and
(25:45):
then and then bringing in youknow more of the software
components to it, like AI, tothen analyze the data that
you're speaking about.
So it's just, it's incredibleto you know, be speaking with
you where your firm is.
You know, at the forefront ofthis leadership is defining how
to bring these tools andimplement that into the
workflows.
(26:06):
That, to me, is just thrillingthat you get to live in that
space.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, I tell people really our customers are our
shop and our field, so we'retrying to get as much input from
them to optimize the product.
We don't dictate what they get,they dictate what we create is
really the angle we're trying toget right, because everything
that we're doing in thedetailing side should benefit
those guys.
So we're just trying tooptimize as much as possible.
You're asking earlier aboutkind of how we some learning
(26:35):
lessons, like, for instance, weprefabricate all of our hangers
and some jobs we have likethousands of hangers.
Well, it's very clear early onlike you can't just send
thousands of hangers out to ajob site and say here's your
hangers, no-transcript.
(27:08):
At the end of the day, like Isaid, our customer is the field.
If my customer is four guysstanding around, they're trying
to figure out what to do with athousand hangers, compared to
four people installing hangers.
The second that it shows up onthe site I have my customers are
much more efficient.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Great lesson, great lesson I I love that viewpoint
too uh, for your detailingdepartment, that it shows up on
the site.
My customers are much moreefficient.
Great lesson, great lesson, andI love that viewpoint too for
your detailing department.
So earlier in the podcast, youand I were talking about
collaboration and how it's apassion of yours and it's a
passion and it's a necessity inthe successful implementation of
the BIM process.
So how do you foster a cultureof collaboration and knowledge
sharing within your team andacross different departments at
(27:44):
ATCO and across coordinationteams, across different
companies?
You know, help me understandhow you bring that passion to
life.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, it's definitely a challenge.
You know, we live in a in aindustry that is based a lot
around tribal knowledge aboutsomebody that learned, that did
something on a job and theyexecute it.
And the only real way forsomebody else to execute as good
as that person is to thatperson, take them under their
wing and show them, show themhow they do it right, because
that's really where theknowledge is at in those person,
(28:14):
in that person.
And I'll be honest with you, Ikind of consider myself an
outsider because I don't buildanything, I don't design
anything.
So, coming in from the outside,I see that as very inefficient,
right, because now we'rereplicating work in different
places that we really shouldn'thave to be if we had that
integrated culture.
So that's really what Ispearhead here at ACCO.
It's like, hey, guys, we havepeople that are experts that
(28:37):
have been are experts inengineering.
They've been engineering for 20years.
We also have experts over herethat have been constructing
stuff for 20 or 30 years as wellfor 20 years.
But we also have experts overhere that have been constructing
stuff for 20 or 30 years aswell.
Like having the two of themtalk, and particularly talk
early on in a project has hugebenefits because we figure out
how we're going to supportsystems, how we're going to lay
out systems very early on.
And we do.
What I hate doing is we?
(28:58):
Well, I love doing this.
We do what.
We ended up alleviating what Idoing is we we?
We get rid of all the rework,right.
There's no sense in usdesigning a whole system just to
hand it over to somebody else.
Down the road in constructionyou go oh, don't build that way,
build this other way, okay.
Well, that means that engineeris already drawn and has to
redraw it, like you're basicallyshooting ourselves in the foot
and having redraws when we couldcontrol that on the front end.
(29:19):
So a lot of what I do do iskind of sell them on
collaboration.
Right, this is in your bestbenefit overall for the project
if you guys were to do this andthat then culminates itself into
an organization or a company,right, if I see best practices,
things going on, I'm one of thepeople who try to magnify that
so that I can get the people'seyes on the other people that
(29:41):
can then influence in otherlocations.
One of our biggest struggleshere at ACCO is we've worked
very silent in the past, so ourLA office may function a bit
different than our Bay Area, butif we're really trying to get
to common manpower that couldsupply for either one of them,
well, some commonality needs tohappen there.
And that's really where Ispearhead myself and say OK,
well, if you were to make thesedecisions, these are your
(30:05):
benefits, right, you'll haveless detailing time, you'll have
less submittal time, you'llhave less purchasing time
because you won't be searchingfor things that are different in
different places.
All of those have tangiblegains.
So really, it's kind of whatI'm kind of alluding to is like
dangle the carrot, give themsome tangible gains of what
they're going to get out of it,and that will foster
collaboration.
(30:25):
And the second part of it isit's it's a diligent.
It's a diligent task.
You know I have to.
I have to coordinate meetings.
And I say coordinate meetings Imean they're like hey, I need
you, you and here at this time,just to make a meeting happen,
to get the right people together.
But I kind of have to kind ofpersonally spearhead that,
(30:45):
because it's not really going tohappen without you know, or if
it does happen, it'll probablytake a lot longer Um and and a
lot a bit of latency built intothat, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, thank you so much for that background.
And, um, and I want to dig alittle bit further into the
human element.
Um, uh, and, and, and it cameup, uh, in my mind earlier as
well how do you best addresstraining and skill development
and change management,especially when you're saying,
for example, the coordinatorreally needs to be knowledgeable
in the space in order to givethe best advice.
(31:13):
So what is your approach tothat?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well, specifically for the coordinator task, we sat
down, not just for a day butfor a while, and we wrote out
what a coordinator really, theirresponsibilities are.
And when you look at it,there's two main buckets.
There's the technical side.
They need to know the programs,they need to know the file
types, they need to know how toget things aligned in a model
(31:39):
right.
There's a technical aspect ofjust working in Navisworks,
working in the software thatthey're going to be coordinating
with, whatever they'recoordinating with, revisto or
whatever's the coordinatingplatform.
They got to know that like theback of their hand because
they're the expert people aregoing to turn to.
When a guy in the firesprinkler company is struggling
with, they're going to turn toGC or whoever's running that
coordination.
We can say well, what's goingon here?
Right.
(31:59):
So there's that technical partof it.
But what's even more difficultis the experience and what I
called earlier the MEPcoordination part of it.
Right, you are an MEPcoordinator, or you should be, I
guess.
Ideally, the person that runsthat process is an MEP
coordinator, because they haveto be able to make those kinds
of decisions.
So how does one become a goodMEP coordinator?
(32:20):
That's not something that thereis just books on the shelf to
learn that.
Once again, it's a lot oftribal knowledge.
Right For me to understand howto coordinate mechanical systems
.
I can't just pick up a book andunderstand it.
The reality is you have to sitin a lot of coordination
meetings, you have to interactwith people installing it.
I've been doing this for 15 orso years now.
I've never, like I said,installed any of this kind of
(32:41):
stuff.
But I could tell you how to.
How to draw a whole firesprinkler system or whole
electrical system to a prettygood, pretty good coordination,
coordinatable state.
You know, and I'm going to kindof call you on like hey, you
can, you can do that.
Drop there when you're aplumber because you're going
down great, like there arethings you want to know about
the other trades to helpstrategize and help coordinate
and help push along coordinationin the right direction.
(33:03):
But there's no book out there tojust, hey, here's coordination.
Everything you know about it'sreally knowing construction.
You need to know things aboutdrywall.
You need to know things aboutfire coating on beams out there
that you know when they spraymonocoat.
So it's just a lot of knowledgethat you're not going to get
unless you're sitting in theroom talking to those guys
(33:46):
no-transcript of that mentalityof just learning to adapt and
work with people, like I said,me being in the middle of it, of
engineering and construction Ikind of find myself.
I have the head of an engineerso I can talk with them on that
level of complexity and design,but also kind of have the
(34:07):
attitude of more of aconstruction worker, of kind of
a willy nilly hey, let's, let'sgo, just do the thing.
So I think having a little bitin both of those helps me bring
people like that together.
But yeah, I mean it's, it'sreally just people building and
understanding your relationships.
I mean it's a it's, it's itbuilding and understanding your
relationships.
I mean it's a challenge.
Like I said earlier, it'sprobably one of the bigger
challenges of my career isreally just communication.
(34:29):
I tell people, man, we workwith expensive software probably
some of the most expensivesoftware in the world with
expensive computers, and we workon multi-million dollar super
complex projects that are mostcomplex in the world.
You know, the hardest part ofour job is people.
It's not all that stuff, it'speople, it's working with people
and getting things done with acollaboration and a coordinated
(34:52):
affair.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And thanks for your focus on you know, making sure
that the mindset of the peopleis very strong and your
leadership and driving thecollaboration, and I can you
know I see that passion come outin you and I'm grateful the
industry has you, steve, as afinal question of the show and a
traditional future construct,if you could project yourself
out 25 years and wanted to haveany device technology that would
(35:15):
benefit you personally, whatwould it be and what would it do
?
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So I mean, I think this is an easy one.
It's jetpacks, man.
Like where are jetpacks, Evenon a job site, flying around
there?
That's got to be much moreefficient than walking around.
So yeah, I'm still I don't knowhow well my legs are going to
work in 25 years, so I think ajetpack would definitely help.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
For sure Now, is that to get like for the multi-story
building or between buildings?
Yeah, either one, you know.
Above all of the above, verycool.
Yeah, fantastic conversation,steve.
Thank you so much for your timetoday on the future construct
podcast.
Um.
You're the constructiontechnology manager at echo
engineered systems.
Um really enjoyed hearing yourjourney and insights into the
(35:58):
intersection of construction andtechnology.
And to our listeners, staytuned for more captivating
discussions on the futureconstruct podcast until next
time.
Thank you all.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you for having meAppreciate it Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Thank you, Steve.
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