February 22, 2024 • 37 mins
Discover the blueprint for the future as we sit down with Mostafa ElAshmawy, WSP Middle East’s visionary in BIM and GIS, to unravel the evolution of digital transformation within the construction industry. Witness Mostafa's riveting transition from an enthusiastic engineering student to an influential force in digital engineering, sharing the ins and outs of his career trajectory and the expansive role digital models play in enhancing data-driven decision-making. Learn how these advancements are changing the game in project estimation and coordination, and get a peek into Mostafa's pioneering strategies and his aspirations for seamless project management that could revolutionize how we build our world.
Embrace the excitement of managing colossal construction marvels as Mostafa gives us a front-row seat to the cutting edge of mega project management in the Middle East's AGC industry. From the sustainability-focused ambitions of the Future Ready program to the digital wizardry of Digital Twins and the promising efficiencies of modular construction, we dissect how these technologies are crafting a new era of design. Get an exclusive look into the grandeur and complexities of Saudi Arabia's giga projects like the Red Sea project and NEOM, while also delving into the sustainability practices that are setting new standards in construction. Mostafa's personal vision for health-enhancing technologies that connect generations offers a stirring close to our far-reaching discussion, all of which points to an industry at the cusp of a monumental leap forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to Future Construct.
I'm Mark Odin, the CEO of BIMDesigns Inc.
And guest host of FutureConstruct.
Today I'm hosting MustafaEl-Ashmawi, head of BIM and GIS
at WSP Middle East.
Welcome, mustafa.
Thank you for making the timeto join me.
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Mark, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Mustafa, you have an in-depth knowledge of
architectural, landscape and MEP.
You've worked as a global BIMmanager, worked on many of the
most significant constructionprojects in the Middle East over
the last 12 years, delivering,coordinating and managing BIM,
gis and CAD deliverables.
You've used your knowledge andexperience to implement BIM and
provide digitization strategiesfor your organization and
(00:50):
clients.
You obtain a master's degree inglobal BIM management and are
certified by many respectfulinformation management
organizations.
You've also acquired a deepacademic knowledge of internal
standards, methods andprocedures related to
information management.
With so much experience, you'recontinually and positively
influencing the digitalconstruction market.
Thank you for all of your manycontributions in the AAC space,
(01:12):
mustafa.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks, mark, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
To kick off the podcast, I'm wondering with your
extensive experience, I'd firstlove to know how you got your
start in the industry.
Over the course of your career,the projects you've played a
role in and altered and broughtpositive change to the industry
in the way that you want to seethe industry project management
practices change or grow.
(01:37):
If we could just learn a littlebit about you.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Okay.
So it all started beforecollege.
I dreamt of joining engineeringcollege for a long time and
even had a small fight with mydad to join engineering college.
But then, once I joined, Ichose to join the civil
engineering department andfocused on structural
(02:04):
engineering for a long time.
I was amazed by 30 ofstructures, how loads go through
buildings and how it'stransferred from an element to
an element.
But then when I was graduatedfrom civil engineering faculty,
I worked in the steel structurefield for a bit short time At
(02:31):
that part of my career I workedas a technical office engineer.
Also for a certain period oftime I worked as a site engineer
.
So during the first two yearsafter graduation I jumped
through several positions.
I worked for contractors, forfabricators, designers.
(02:54):
I even worked as an instructorfor some software and during
this part also being aninstructor for this engineering
software led into me masteringmore and more of these software.
So being part of the AACindustry from my perspective was
(03:20):
more of being involved in thedigital engineering part of the
industry.
So I learned many software, atthe beginning focused on the
drafting and modeling, thenstarted developing these skills
further when I understood thatthere is much larger world
(03:46):
called BEM.
So at the beginning I was just abit professional, but then I
started looking at BEM from aninformation management
perspective.
I took a master in global BEMmanagement, which helped me a
lot in the next steps workingfor WSP as part of the project
(04:11):
management services departmentand just before joining WSP.
There was a specific incidentthat happened at one of the
projects that drew my attentionto the way we manage projects,
(04:32):
where I attended a meeting withlots of senior engineers and
many decision makers and in thatmeeting we spent around 20 to
30 minutes discussing a verysmall box of concrete three
meters by three meters.
Everybody was trying to avoidhaving this in their scope and
(04:54):
then we realized, hey guys, youare discussing something that
worth nothing compared to thesalaries and the hours spent by
all of these people in this room.
So I thought that if such smallbox was properly identified in
(05:16):
a digital environment or in aBEM model with clear scopes
defined, so that specificmeeting get me to think more
about how we can enable thesekind of decision makers and key
personnel in projects to managethe project more efficiently
(05:39):
without wasting time indiscussions and disputes, using
BEM as a tool to facilitate this.
And yeah, that's mainly what itis for this book.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, thank you for the background.
I'm very curious about how,coming out of that meeting and
the positive change that youwanted to bring to the industry,
where have you applied theefficient management of BEM to
make the best use of everybody'stime?
Do you have some examples ofthat?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, a lot.
We currently try to always havethe digital twin or I will not
call it a digital twin, let'ssay a digital representation of
the project as detailed asneeded to support data driven
(06:36):
decision making.
So when it comes, for example,to contributing to a project at
bidding stage, I always try tohave a BEM model that's ready
for estimation so that we canhave better quantities, better
estimates, cost estimates toapply or to propose the best bid
(07:00):
in this project.
And if, for example, we arejoining into a design part, I
want always to ensure that myBEM models are ready for
collaboration, for coordination.
So the way that I'm using thedigital tools currently is to
(07:20):
ensure that there is always aBEM model or a digital model fit
for the best needed to managethe project.
There are many other examples,but I may elaborate on it a bit
late.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for sharingthat and switching back to work
topics.
You're at WSP now, which is oneof the world's largest
engineering firms.
What brought you to WSP?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So basically WSP was a dream for me.
Before WSP I worked for designand build contractor.
I was more of a bin managerplus a technical coordinator,
looking to my technicalexperience.
So I was using all what Ilearned to support the design
(08:14):
and construction process.
But I have always looked to WSPas a place where I can develop
myself, develop myself and bemore innovative.
And the opportunity came whenWSP wanted to, or posted a job
about, a bin manager for aproject here in Nuriad, saudi
(08:39):
Arabia, as part of their projectmanagement services and at that
time when I applied, I passedin the interview and immediately
after joining I started notsaying that I can add not only
learn from WSP, but also addfrom my experience to fill the
(09:02):
gaps that's available in theorganization related to BIM.
So I helped in developingbetter BIM strategy for the
project management servicesdepartment and also started to
integrate BIM and GIS and toachieve more efficient delivery
(09:24):
of the project.
Wsp in the Middle East operatesin four different business
units.
Two of them are more of designconsultants and one is a project
management consultancy andanother business unit which is
advisory.
So in my business unit my roleis more of supporting the
(09:49):
clients in defining therequirements and also helping
the client in supervising thevarious consultants and
contractors and otherstakeholders involved in the
project.
So this role gave me bettercontrol on the digital delivery
of projects.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Very cool, and how long have you been at WSP now?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, it's around three and a half year.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Well.
Congratulations on your tenureand your growth.
I imagine, working for WSP andliving in Saudi Arabia, that
you've encountered a number ofinnovations, having worked on
massive giga projects.
I'd love to hear some examplesof some of these cutting edge
technologies and methodologiesthat you've witnessed that have
significantly transformed theAGC industry.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, first thing that I learned in WSP is
something we call Future Ready.
Future Ready is a program inWSP that's focused on ensuring
that everybody in theorganization deliver future
ready solutions to our client.
(11:02):
So when we are designing aproject, for example, we need to
think that this project willlive for hundreds of years.
So we want to ensure that thisbuilding, for example, will not
only serve people that areliving now but their descendants
(11:23):
also.
So same happens when we aremanaging a project.
We need to ensure that allstakeholders in the project have
the same mentality, understandthe life cycle of the project to
ensure that everything is madeto be future ready.
(11:45):
And part of the innovativesolutions that were introduced
and I'm a very big fan of andWSP is constantly developing in
them is Digital Twins.
So Digital Twins, specifically,is one of my main focus areas.
(12:07):
I am doing some researches onthis topic and also supporting
in developing some strategiesfor this.
The concept of Digital Twin isto ensure that we have a Digital
Twin that's linked with thephysical assets and we have, in
(12:29):
the best case scenario, two-waylink between the digital and the
physical assets.
So in that way, we can controlthe physical assets using the
Digital Twin and also gatherdata from the physical assets
into the Digital Twin to makeanalysis and so on.
(12:51):
Another tool or technology thatI'm involved in implementing in
some projects is someapplications of the larger world
of the metaverse.
So I will not say that I havedelivered such a complete
(13:14):
solution under the metaverse,but many sub-projects or many
smaller solutions.
That applies the same conceptwhere we have a digital reality
that can support in eithermanaging the construction
process or supporting clientsafter construction.
(13:37):
So these are mainly twotechnologies that I'm a big fan
of and, on the same time,heavily immersed in.
One last thing that I'm usuallypromoting and supporting is the
modular construction, becauseit's an important concept from
(14:00):
my point of view and it helps alot in the sustainability of our
projects.
So having prefab parts of thebuildings as much as we can will
support in having, let's say,replaceable parts of our
(14:21):
building in the future and alsoit will enhance the design
process.
It will help in longer life forour projects.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That sounds absolutely incredible and I love
that domain and all of thosetopics.
They all intertwine and theyhelp for a better digital and a
physical environment.
So I love your focus on thatand I'm very excited to speak
with you about some of theselarge scale projects that you
may have experienced on In theMiddle East.
I'd love to really hear aboutyour involvement on these very
(14:54):
large, mega scale projects likethe Red Sea project and Neon,
which is otherwise called theline.
Can you describe the scale ofthese projects and really help
our audience understand themassive element of this?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, so specifically these two projects that you
mentioned, the Red Sea and Neon,are really massive.
So, for example, the Red Seaproject is around 28,000 km2 and
Neon is around 26,000 km2.
So as far as I know and I didsome small research before
(15:34):
another webinar that I was doingabout the giga projects in
Saudi Arabia this area around26,000 to 28,000 km2 is more
than the size of, or the area of, many countries.
Actually, to be more precise,around 50 countries are smaller
(15:56):
than this area.
So I really appreciate the workdone in these projects and I
always look about how these hugeprojects are managed.
And just to explain somethingabout Neon, for example, so the
(16:17):
line is one of the projectsunder Neon.
So a project like Neon hasaround I don't know how many
projects under it, but it havemany, many larger, large
projects below it, so the lineis one of them.
There is Trugina, there is someother amazing projects, and the
(16:39):
good thing in Neon is thatalmost every district or every
part or every project under Neonhas a unique design and a
unique intent for use.
So the main pattern that youwould notice in the Saudi giga
(17:05):
projects is that they are tryingto make things that we think
impossible.
They are trying to make itnormal or trying to make it real
.
So some of these projects have avery long life cycle.
(17:27):
So, for example, some of theseprojects will last in
construction for more than 10years.
It will be delivered phase byphase.
So you will notice, starting2024, some delivery of these
projects.
For example, red Sea isdelivering their first hotel
(17:48):
during 2024.
But still, there will be lotsand lots of work done for this
project through the upcomingyears.
The main challenge that I cansee facing these projects, for
example, logistics, coordination, the availability of resources
(18:11):
that can deliver all of thishuge work at the same time
simultaneously in or acrossSaudi Arabia, because Nium and
Red Sea are at the western partof Saudi Arabia, but there are
many other Giga projectshappening in Riyadh and in
Jeddah and in other regions ofSaudi Arabia, for example, durea
(18:36):
, gait, qedaya and many others.
So it's interesting and it'sreally something that sometimes
I envy myself for being in SaudiArabia at this period of time,
because it's really booming andit's helpful for the
(18:58):
construction industry.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And thank you so much for that context.
I mean, just think about theseprojects.
Each of them are larger thanthe size of 50 different
countries is amazing andcredible.
And I'm curious your goal atWSP is to combine digital twins
with the concept of themetaverse and prepare for
modular construction.
So just to combine the scale ofthese projects, you're looking
(19:25):
at creating a digital twin of26,000 kilometers squared.
Is that accurate?
And I imagine there's atremendous amount of
complexities with that.
Can you speak a little bit tojust the collaboration of all
the different stakeholders andhow you're even looking at the
digital twin or even at theprocess of executing on that
(19:48):
work?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah.
So firstly, let me explain thatWSP is only one consultant out
of tens of consultants workingon these projects.
So almost all the internationaland national organizations
that's related to constructionare contributing to these
(20:10):
projects, and this is one ofalso the good things about these
projects it's gatheringexperience from all over the
world to deliver these projects.
However, as I mentioned earlier, there are some challenges and,
from my point of view, my mainpriority when I'm involved in
(20:34):
any of the largest projects hereis to develop a trusted source
of truth.
So what we like when it comesto this size of projects is to
ensure that the information thatwe have is correct, and this
(20:56):
can't be done without theinvolvement of technology and
information managementtechniques.
So, due to the nature of havingall of these stakeholders
working at the same location,sometimes it's very hard to
unify all the methods ofdelivery, to unify all the
(21:23):
standards, methods, proceduresfor all of these stakeholders
and enforce it at one time.
So you need to balance betweenenforcing the thing, the must
things, or let's say, enforcingthe things that must be done,
(21:45):
but also having the flexibilityto absorb other solutions and
other methodologies, and to doso instead of having a single
common data environment.
You need to have an ecosystemfor common data environments.
So you have several platformsand you need to build an
(22:05):
ecosystem that can integratevarious platforms.
Very software, because, forexample, if you go to an
architect that's specialized inorganic designs and enforce him
to use Rivet, for example, andleave Rhino or any other
(22:25):
solution, sometimes you aretaking out the tools from him.
So you need to enable him butdo your work in ensuring that
whatever the solution he willuse will be integrated in your
ecosystem.
So one of the priorities forthis project is to have this
trusted source of truth, and itcan't be trusted unless it's
(22:48):
well defined and well developedand well managed.
Also, this will immediatelydevelop a better way for
data-driven decisions.
When you are dealing with thesekind of projects, you need to
(23:09):
take decisions and to be able totake these decisions you need
to have the data alwaysavailable.
So if you need quantities for aspecific project, you can't just
check the BIM model and thenyou find that you have some
duplicates inside the BIM model,for example.
(23:31):
So the quality control processfor such digital models that
will be and are being developedfor these projects need to be on
a very high level to ensureproper decision-making process.
Another challenge that's facinglarge projects is the various
(23:59):
perspectives of the stakeholdersinvolved with it, even
sometimes in the sameorganization.
So even when you are dealingwith a client, for example,
sometimes we'll find theconstruction director have
different priorities than thedigital lead, for example.
So even if you have awell-established information
(24:21):
requirements, if you don't havean alignment across the teams
about what are our digital goals, sometimes you will have
different.
These different perspectiveswill result in bad delivery or
lead delivery of information oreven delivery of information,
(24:43):
but then it's not being used.
So this kind of balance betweenthe various perspectives of the
various stakeholders andvarious teams in these projects
sometimes is a great challenge.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.
It sounds like these challengescan be faced by teams of small
sizes and teams of very, verylarge sizes, so I'm glad that
we're all not alone in thosechallenges.
I'm curious can you share aninitiative that you're
particularly proud of, given allof your national and
international work, and how yousee those types of initiatives
(25:22):
positively influencing thefuture of digital construction?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I think the latest one I've been involved in is
being NIMA Ambassador.
Nima is a great organizationthat's involved in the writing
of the International BEMSStandards ISO 9650, and also an
(25:54):
organization that developsinformation management
guidelines, like UK BEMFramework.
So being part of thisorganization is a great honor
for me and I'm very proud ofthis.
Being an ambassador for NIMAwill help me to support the use
(26:17):
of these standards and theimplementation of these
standards in the Middle East ina more proactive way.
And another initiative that I'mvery proud of is being the lead
of a glossary calledDigitalization and Data Glossary
(26:38):
.
This one was part of CAN BEMorganization, which is now
called Building Transformationthey shifted their name but this
glossary is more aboutcollecting the various
terminology used in the data anddigitalization space and try to
(26:59):
find the best definition thatcan help all of us to speak the
same language.
Why I'm proud of it is notabout the results we obtained
but about the discussions that Iwas involved in while gathering
this glossary.
(27:20):
I was in discussions withvarious experts from various
industries that are part of thelarger architectural,
engineering, construction andoperation industry, and it was
amazing to see the same world,how it can have different
perspectives from various peoplebased on their profession, and
(27:45):
then agreeing on the best way todescribe things, not only in
the context of today, but alsoin the context of how we want to
use these terminology in thefuture.
So, for example, when we werediscussing how to define an
As-Built model, that was greatbecause we realized that today,
(28:11):
as-built model is just modelingoff the red mark drawings that's
gathered from side, based ontraditional surveys.
But what we want as builtmodels to be is the day-to-day
update of what's model or sorryor what's built on site, so to
(28:32):
have all that change capturedimmediately inside the pen
models, day by day.
So this kind of conversationsadded a lot to me.
That's why I'm really proud ofthis initiative.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
Yeah, I can't imagine thecomplexity of the challenges
you're trying to solve.
I mean, as you mentioned, justthe definition of the as-built
model and immediately capturingchanges day to day in the model
and the technology that'srequired, just to you know, just
to be able to deliver on that.
Shifting over to sustainability, I'm curious about how you've
(29:09):
applied sustainability, howsustainability is considered in
these, in these mega projects,and what are the obstacles that
you often face when, when,having sustainability in mind
and combining that with thesevery large initiatives.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, from my perspective, one of the main
challenges to achievesustainability in these projects
is waste and how to control itand how to ensure it's minimized
as possible.
So, for example, if we thinkabout the waste of reinforcement
(29:47):
rebars and if you, if youallowed every contractor to cut
their reinforcement based ontheir scope and just deliver it
the way they want, you will finda huge amount of waste looking
into the amount of constructionin such projects.
(30:07):
But in these projects, you needto try as possible to unify the
way all of these contractorswork, and I was aware of some
initiatives and slightlyinvolved in an initiative on one
of specific one of theseprojects, trying to manage the
(30:30):
reinforcement fabrication forthe whole projects and ensure
that there is specific processfollowed by every single
contractor involved in theproject.
So imagine this being appliedalso on all the other material
and all other elements ofconstruction.
(30:51):
And when I speak about thistopic, the main thing that come
in my mind is a publicationcalled Apollo protocol.
It's it's published through aforum called Apollo protocol
forum.
So the Apollo protocol istrying to find the link between
(31:12):
the manufacturing industry andthe construction industry,
trying to feed the manufacturersby the sufficient data from
construction.
So if, for example,manufacturers are aware of the
(31:33):
needs for a specific project,they will be able to to provide
based on these needs, instead ofhaving a gap between both
worlds.
So this kind of initiative canhelp in reducing the waste in in
tremendous way, because imaginethat me, as a contractor, are
(31:58):
aware of all the projects andall of these projects on the
same way are built in a way thatcan fit the needs of my
construction.
So it builds this kind of glueto fill the gaps between the
construction industry and themanufacturing very cool and
(32:22):
thanks for acknowledging theApollo protocol forum.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I'm excited to look into that.
I'd like to merge together afew different topics here and
kind of bring together the, the,everything we've discussed
about today, just the, thechallenges that you're facing, a
level of scale at which you're,which you're trying to solve
some of these problems.
If we look into some of thetechnological and digital and
(32:47):
and managerial solutions thatyou've you've had to employ in
order to manage such that theselarge-scale projects, we just
love to hear some, you know,some tangible thoughts on, on on
tools or or processes that haveled to success for you,
especially when we're looking at, you know, such mega, mega
(33:08):
projects yeah, it's um, what Ican think of is reality capture.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It helped a lot in actually capturing the, the
as-built and the existingcondition without the need to
have huge teams for off-server,and also it provides more
accurate data and more usabledata.
So capturing uh, reality,including all the technologies
(33:41):
that that lies beneath it,including laser scanning drones
all of these technologies helpit a lot in better capturing of
information.
We even utilize thesetechnologies to calculate the
cut-and-fill for a massiveearthwork projects, specifically
(34:03):
Kings and man Park.
We are contributing to it.
It has huge cut-and-fill areasand volumes and we are using
drones to survey this andcalculate the data day by day or
week by week directly from theplatform that we are using.
It can also help or it'shelping us actually in
(34:30):
delivering better B-models,because in these kind of
projects you can't go and modeleverything in them because, due
to these large areas, you willhave huge project sizes in Revit
(34:50):
, for example, or in whateverBIM solution you are using.
So sometimes we have integrateddelivery that integrate the
models and also the laser scansand also some GIS layers.
So these kind of integrationshelp us a lot in delivering more
(35:14):
efficient digital deliverables.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Fantastic.
Thank you, mustafa.
And the final question of thefuture construct podcast and a
tradition of our show.
If you could project yourselfout 25 years and wanted to have
any device or technology thatwould benefit you personally,
what would it be and what wouldit do?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
In 25 years, I always imagined myself sitting with my
kids or the kids of my kids,playing with them and to help
myself.
After 25 years, I think it willbe something related to health.
So if it's some device that canenable me to play football with
(36:03):
sons of my sons, or somemetaverse solutions that can
help me do same activities withthem, I think that will be the
technologies that I need at thattime.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I love that.
That's fantastic.
How touching as well, and Ihope to see that for you as well
.
So I appreciate your time today.
I feel like there's so much Ican learn from you and so much
the industry can learn from you.
Thank you for all of yourcontributions, sir.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Thanks a lot, mark.
It was a pleasure being herewith you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Welcome to Future Construct.
I'm Mark Odin, the CEO of BIMDesigns Inc.
And guest host of FutureConstruct.
Today I'm hosting MustafaEl-Ashmawi, head of BIM and GIS
at WSP Middle East.
Welcome, mustafa.
Thank you for making the timeto join me.
Thanks.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Mark, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Mustafa, you have an in-depth knowledge of
architectural, landscape and MEP.
You've worked as a global BIMmanager, worked on many of the
most significant constructionprojects in the Middle East over
the last 12 years, delivering,coordinating and managing BIM,
gis and CAD deliverables.
You've used your knowledge andexperience to implement BIM and
provide digitization strategiesfor your organization and
(00:50):
clients.
You obtain a master's degree inglobal BIM management and are
certified by many respectfulinformation management
organizations.
You've also acquired a deepacademic knowledge of internal
standards, methods andprocedures related to
information management.
With so much experience, you'recontinually and positively
influencing the digitalconstruction market.
Thank you for all of your manycontributions in the AAC space,
(01:12):
mustafa.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks, mark, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
To kick off the podcast, I'm wondering with your
extensive experience, I'd firstlove to know how you got your
start in the industry.
Over the course of your career,the projects you've played a
role in and altered and broughtpositive change to the industry
in the way that you want to seethe industry project management
practices change or grow.
(01:37):
If we could just learn a littlebit about you.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Okay.
So it all started beforecollege.
I dreamt of joining engineeringcollege for a long time and
even had a small fight with mydad to join engineering college.
But then, once I joined, Ichose to join the civil
engineering department andfocused on structural
(02:04):
engineering for a long time.
I was amazed by 30 ofstructures, how loads go through
buildings and how it'stransferred from an element to
an element.
But then when I was graduatedfrom civil engineering faculty,
I worked in the steel structurefield for a bit short time At
(02:31):
that part of my career I workedas a technical office engineer.
Also for a certain period oftime I worked as a site engineer
.
So during the first two yearsafter graduation I jumped
through several positions.
I worked for contractors, forfabricators, designers.
(02:54):
I even worked as an instructorfor some software and during
this part also being aninstructor for this engineering
software led into me masteringmore and more of these software.
So being part of the AACindustry from my perspective was
(03:20):
more of being involved in thedigital engineering part of the
industry.
So I learned many software, atthe beginning focused on the
drafting and modeling, thenstarted developing these skills
further when I understood thatthere is much larger world
(03:46):
called BEM.
So at the beginning I was just abit professional, but then I
started looking at BEM from aninformation management
perspective.
I took a master in global BEMmanagement, which helped me a
lot in the next steps workingfor WSP as part of the project
(04:11):
management services departmentand just before joining WSP.
There was a specific incidentthat happened at one of the
projects that drew my attentionto the way we manage projects,
(04:32):
where I attended a meeting withlots of senior engineers and
many decision makers and in thatmeeting we spent around 20 to
30 minutes discussing a verysmall box of concrete three
meters by three meters.
Everybody was trying to avoidhaving this in their scope and
(04:54):
then we realized, hey guys, youare discussing something that
worth nothing compared to thesalaries and the hours spent by
all of these people in this room.
So I thought that if such smallbox was properly identified in
(05:16):
a digital environment or in aBEM model with clear scopes
defined, so that specificmeeting get me to think more
about how we can enable thesekind of decision makers and key
personnel in projects to managethe project more efficiently
(05:39):
without wasting time indiscussions and disputes, using
BEM as a tool to facilitate this.
And yeah, that's mainly what itis for this book.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Well, thank you for the background.
I'm very curious about how,coming out of that meeting and
the positive change that youwanted to bring to the industry,
where have you applied theefficient management of BEM to
make the best use of everybody'stime?
Do you have some examples ofthat?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, a lot.
We currently try to always havethe digital twin or I will not
call it a digital twin, let'ssay a digital representation of
the project as detailed asneeded to support data driven
(06:36):
decision making.
So when it comes, for example,to contributing to a project at
bidding stage, I always try tohave a BEM model that's ready
for estimation so that we canhave better quantities, better
estimates, cost estimates toapply or to propose the best bid
(07:00):
in this project.
And if, for example, we arejoining into a design part, I
want always to ensure that myBEM models are ready for
collaboration, for coordination.
So the way that I'm using thedigital tools currently is to
(07:20):
ensure that there is always aBEM model or a digital model fit
for the best needed to managethe project.
There are many other examples,but I may elaborate on it a bit
late.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for sharingthat and switching back to work
topics.
You're at WSP now, which is oneof the world's largest
engineering firms.
What brought you to WSP?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
So basically WSP was a dream for me.
Before WSP I worked for designand build contractor.
I was more of a bin managerplus a technical coordinator,
looking to my technicalexperience.
So I was using all what Ilearned to support the design
(08:14):
and construction process.
But I have always looked to WSPas a place where I can develop
myself, develop myself and bemore innovative.
And the opportunity came whenWSP wanted to, or posted a job
about, a bin manager for aproject here in Nuriad, saudi
(08:39):
Arabia, as part of their projectmanagement services and at that
time when I applied, I passedin the interview and immediately
after joining I started notsaying that I can add not only
learn from WSP, but also addfrom my experience to fill the
(09:02):
gaps that's available in theorganization related to BIM.
So I helped in developingbetter BIM strategy for the
project management servicesdepartment and also started to
integrate BIM and GIS and toachieve more efficient delivery
(09:24):
of the project.
Wsp in the Middle East operatesin four different business
units.
Two of them are more of designconsultants and one is a project
management consultancy andanother business unit which is
advisory.
So in my business unit my roleis more of supporting the
(09:49):
clients in defining therequirements and also helping
the client in supervising thevarious consultants and
contractors and otherstakeholders involved in the
project.
So this role gave me bettercontrol on the digital delivery
of projects.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Very cool, and how long have you been at WSP now?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, it's around three and a half year.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Well.
Congratulations on your tenureand your growth.
I imagine, working for WSP andliving in Saudi Arabia, that
you've encountered a number ofinnovations, having worked on
massive giga projects.
I'd love to hear some examplesof some of these cutting edge
technologies and methodologiesthat you've witnessed that have
significantly transformed theAGC industry.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, first thing that I learned in WSP is
something we call Future Ready.
Future Ready is a program inWSP that's focused on ensuring
that everybody in theorganization deliver future
ready solutions to our client.
(11:02):
So when we are designing aproject, for example, we need to
think that this project willlive for hundreds of years.
So we want to ensure that thisbuilding, for example, will not
only serve people that areliving now but their descendants
(11:23):
also.
So same happens when we aremanaging a project.
We need to ensure that allstakeholders in the project have
the same mentality, understandthe life cycle of the project to
ensure that everything is madeto be future ready.
(11:45):
And part of the innovativesolutions that were introduced
and I'm a very big fan of andWSP is constantly developing in
them is Digital Twins.
So Digital Twins, specifically,is one of my main focus areas.
(12:07):
I am doing some researches onthis topic and also supporting
in developing some strategiesfor this.
The concept of Digital Twin isto ensure that we have a Digital
Twin that's linked with thephysical assets and we have, in
(12:29):
the best case scenario, two-waylink between the digital and the
physical assets.
So in that way, we can controlthe physical assets using the
Digital Twin and also gatherdata from the physical assets
into the Digital Twin to makeanalysis and so on.
(12:51):
Another tool or technology thatI'm involved in implementing in
some projects is someapplications of the larger world
of the metaverse.
So I will not say that I havedelivered such a complete
(13:14):
solution under the metaverse,but many sub-projects or many
smaller solutions.
That applies the same conceptwhere we have a digital reality
that can support in eithermanaging the construction
process or supporting clientsafter construction.
(13:37):
So these are mainly twotechnologies that I'm a big fan
of and, on the same time,heavily immersed in.
One last thing that I'm usuallypromoting and supporting is the
modular construction, becauseit's an important concept from
(14:00):
my point of view and it helps alot in the sustainability of our
projects.
So having prefab parts of thebuildings as much as we can will
support in having, let's say,replaceable parts of our
(14:21):
building in the future and alsoit will enhance the design
process.
It will help in longer life forour projects.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
That sounds absolutely incredible and I love
that domain and all of thosetopics.
They all intertwine and theyhelp for a better digital and a
physical environment.
So I love your focus on thatand I'm very excited to speak
with you about some of theselarge scale projects that you
may have experienced on In theMiddle East.
I'd love to really hear aboutyour involvement on these very
(14:54):
large, mega scale projects likethe Red Sea project and Neon,
which is otherwise called theline.
Can you describe the scale ofthese projects and really help
our audience understand themassive element of this?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, so specifically these two projects that you
mentioned, the Red Sea and Neon,are really massive.
So, for example, the Red Seaproject is around 28,000 km2 and
Neon is around 26,000 km2.
So as far as I know and I didsome small research before
(15:34):
another webinar that I was doingabout the giga projects in
Saudi Arabia this area around26,000 to 28,000 km2 is more
than the size of, or the area of, many countries.
Actually, to be more precise,around 50 countries are smaller
(15:56):
than this area.
So I really appreciate the workdone in these projects and I
always look about how these hugeprojects are managed.
And just to explain somethingabout Neon, for example, so the
(16:17):
line is one of the projectsunder Neon.
So a project like Neon hasaround I don't know how many
projects under it, but it havemany, many larger, large
projects below it, so the lineis one of them.
There is Trugina, there is someother amazing projects, and the
(16:39):
good thing in Neon is thatalmost every district or every
part or every project under Neonhas a unique design and a
unique intent for use.
So the main pattern that youwould notice in the Saudi giga
(17:05):
projects is that they are tryingto make things that we think
impossible.
They are trying to make itnormal or trying to make it real
.
So some of these projects have avery long life cycle.
(17:27):
So, for example, some of theseprojects will last in
construction for more than 10years.
It will be delivered phase byphase.
So you will notice, starting2024, some delivery of these
projects.
For example, red Sea isdelivering their first hotel
(17:48):
during 2024.
But still, there will be lotsand lots of work done for this
project through the upcomingyears.
The main challenge that I cansee facing these projects, for
example, logistics, coordination, the availability of resources
(18:11):
that can deliver all of thishuge work at the same time
simultaneously in or acrossSaudi Arabia, because Nium and
Red Sea are at the western partof Saudi Arabia, but there are
many other Giga projectshappening in Riyadh and in
Jeddah and in other regions ofSaudi Arabia, for example, durea
(18:36):
, gait, qedaya and many others.
So it's interesting and it'sreally something that sometimes
I envy myself for being in SaudiArabia at this period of time,
because it's really booming andit's helpful for the
(18:58):
construction industry.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
And thank you so much for that context.
I mean, just think about theseprojects.
Each of them are larger thanthe size of 50 different
countries is amazing andcredible.
And I'm curious your goal atWSP is to combine digital twins
with the concept of themetaverse and prepare for
modular construction.
So just to combine the scale ofthese projects, you're looking
(19:25):
at creating a digital twin of26,000 kilometers squared.
Is that accurate?
And I imagine there's atremendous amount of
complexities with that.
Can you speak a little bit tojust the collaboration of all
the different stakeholders andhow you're even looking at the
digital twin or even at theprocess of executing on that
(19:48):
work?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah.
So firstly, let me explain thatWSP is only one consultant out
of tens of consultants workingon these projects.
So almost all the internationaland national organizations
that's related to constructionare contributing to these
(20:10):
projects, and this is one ofalso the good things about these
projects it's gatheringexperience from all over the
world to deliver these projects.
However, as I mentioned earlier, there are some challenges and,
from my point of view, my mainpriority when I'm involved in
(20:34):
any of the largest projects hereis to develop a trusted source
of truth.
So what we like when it comesto this size of projects is to
ensure that the information thatwe have is correct, and this
(20:56):
can't be done without theinvolvement of technology and
information managementtechniques.
So, due to the nature of havingall of these stakeholders
working at the same location,sometimes it's very hard to
unify all the methods ofdelivery, to unify all the
(21:23):
standards, methods, proceduresfor all of these stakeholders
and enforce it at one time.
So you need to balance betweenenforcing the thing, the must
things, or let's say, enforcingthe things that must be done,
(21:45):
but also having the flexibilityto absorb other solutions and
other methodologies, and to doso instead of having a single
common data environment.
You need to have an ecosystemfor common data environments.
So you have several platformsand you need to build an
(22:05):
ecosystem that can integratevarious platforms.
Very software, because, forexample, if you go to an
architect that's specialized inorganic designs and enforce him
to use Rivet, for example, andleave Rhino or any other
(22:25):
solution, sometimes you aretaking out the tools from him.
So you need to enable him butdo your work in ensuring that
whatever the solution he willuse will be integrated in your
ecosystem.
So one of the priorities forthis project is to have this
trusted source of truth, and itcan't be trusted unless it's
(22:48):
well defined and well developedand well managed.
Also, this will immediatelydevelop a better way for
data-driven decisions.
When you are dealing with thesekind of projects, you need to
(23:09):
take decisions and to be able totake these decisions you need
to have the data alwaysavailable.
So if you need quantities for aspecific project, you can't just
check the BIM model and thenyou find that you have some
duplicates inside the BIM model,for example.
(23:31):
So the quality control processfor such digital models that
will be and are being developedfor these projects need to be on
a very high level to ensureproper decision-making process.
Another challenge that's facinglarge projects is the various
(23:59):
perspectives of the stakeholdersinvolved with it, even
sometimes in the sameorganization.
So even when you are dealingwith a client, for example,
sometimes we'll find theconstruction director have
different priorities than thedigital lead, for example.
So even if you have awell-established information
(24:21):
requirements, if you don't havean alignment across the teams
about what are our digital goals, sometimes you will have
different.
These different perspectiveswill result in bad delivery or
lead delivery of information oreven delivery of information,
(24:43):
but then it's not being used.
So this kind of balance betweenthe various perspectives of the
various stakeholders andvarious teams in these projects
sometimes is a great challenge.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that.
It sounds like these challengescan be faced by teams of small
sizes and teams of very, verylarge sizes, so I'm glad that
we're all not alone in thosechallenges.
I'm curious can you share aninitiative that you're
particularly proud of, given allof your national and
international work, and how yousee those types of initiatives
(25:22):
positively influencing thefuture of digital construction?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I think the latest one I've been involved in is
being NIMA Ambassador.
Nima is a great organizationthat's involved in the writing
of the International BEMSStandards ISO 9650, and also an
(25:54):
organization that developsinformation management
guidelines, like UK BEMFramework.
So being part of thisorganization is a great honor
for me and I'm very proud ofthis.
Being an ambassador for NIMAwill help me to support the use
(26:17):
of these standards and theimplementation of these
standards in the Middle East ina more proactive way.
And another initiative that I'mvery proud of is being the lead
of a glossary calledDigitalization and Data Glossary
(26:38):
.
This one was part of CAN BEMorganization, which is now
called Building Transformationthey shifted their name but this
glossary is more aboutcollecting the various
terminology used in the data anddigitalization space and try to
(26:59):
find the best definition thatcan help all of us to speak the
same language.
Why I'm proud of it is notabout the results we obtained
but about the discussions that Iwas involved in while gathering
this glossary.
(27:20):
I was in discussions withvarious experts from various
industries that are part of thelarger architectural,
engineering, construction andoperation industry, and it was
amazing to see the same world,how it can have different
perspectives from various peoplebased on their profession, and
(27:45):
then agreeing on the best way todescribe things, not only in
the context of today, but alsoin the context of how we want to
use these terminology in thefuture.
So, for example, when we werediscussing how to define an
As-Built model, that was greatbecause we realized that today,
(28:11):
as-built model is just modelingoff the red mark drawings that's
gathered from side, based ontraditional surveys.
But what we want as builtmodels to be is the day-to-day
update of what's model or sorryor what's built on site, so to
(28:32):
have all that change capturedimmediately inside the pen
models, day by day.
So this kind of conversationsadded a lot to me.
That's why I'm really proud ofthis initiative.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, thank you so much for sharing.
Yeah, I can't imagine thecomplexity of the challenges
you're trying to solve.
I mean, as you mentioned, justthe definition of the as-built
model and immediately capturingchanges day to day in the model
and the technology that'srequired, just to you know, just
to be able to deliver on that.
Shifting over to sustainability, I'm curious about how you've
(29:09):
applied sustainability, howsustainability is considered in
these, in these mega projects,and what are the obstacles that
you often face when, when,having sustainability in mind
and combining that with thesevery large initiatives.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah, from my perspective, one of the main
challenges to achievesustainability in these projects
is waste and how to control itand how to ensure it's minimized
as possible.
So, for example, if we thinkabout the waste of reinforcement
(29:47):
rebars and if you, if youallowed every contractor to cut
their reinforcement based ontheir scope and just deliver it
the way they want, you will finda huge amount of waste looking
into the amount of constructionin such projects.
(30:07):
But in these projects, you needto try as possible to unify the
way all of these contractorswork, and I was aware of some
initiatives and slightlyinvolved in an initiative on one
of specific one of theseprojects, trying to manage the
(30:30):
reinforcement fabrication forthe whole projects and ensure
that there is specific processfollowed by every single
contractor involved in theproject.
So imagine this being appliedalso on all the other material
and all other elements ofconstruction.
(30:51):
And when I speak about thistopic, the main thing that come
in my mind is a publicationcalled Apollo protocol.
It's it's published through aforum called Apollo protocol
forum.
So the Apollo protocol istrying to find the link between
(31:12):
the manufacturing industry andthe construction industry,
trying to feed the manufacturersby the sufficient data from
construction.
So if, for example,manufacturers are aware of the
(31:33):
needs for a specific project,they will be able to to provide
based on these needs, instead ofhaving a gap between both
worlds.
So this kind of initiative canhelp in reducing the waste in in
tremendous way, because imaginethat me, as a contractor, are
(31:58):
aware of all the projects andall of these projects on the
same way are built in a way thatcan fit the needs of my
construction.
So it builds this kind of glueto fill the gaps between the
construction industry and themanufacturing very cool and
(32:22):
thanks for acknowledging theApollo protocol forum.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I'm excited to look into that.
I'd like to merge together afew different topics here and
kind of bring together the, the,everything we've discussed
about today, just the, thechallenges that you're facing, a
level of scale at which you're,which you're trying to solve
some of these problems.
If we look into some of thetechnological and digital and
(32:47):
and managerial solutions thatyou've you've had to employ in
order to manage such that theselarge-scale projects, we just
love to hear some, you know,some tangible thoughts on, on on
tools or or processes that haveled to success for you,
especially when we're looking at, you know, such mega, mega
(33:08):
projects yeah, it's um, what Ican think of is reality capture.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
It helped a lot in actually capturing the, the
as-built and the existingcondition without the need to
have huge teams for off-server,and also it provides more
accurate data and more usabledata.
So capturing uh, reality,including all the technologies
(33:41):
that that lies beneath it,including laser scanning drones
all of these technologies helpit a lot in better capturing of
information.
We even utilize thesetechnologies to calculate the
cut-and-fill for a massiveearthwork projects, specifically
(34:03):
Kings and man Park.
We are contributing to it.
It has huge cut-and-fill areasand volumes and we are using
drones to survey this andcalculate the data day by day or
week by week directly from theplatform that we are using.
It can also help or it'shelping us actually in
(34:30):
delivering better B-models,because in these kind of
projects you can't go and modeleverything in them because, due
to these large areas, you willhave huge project sizes in Revit
(34:50):
, for example, or in whateverBIM solution you are using.
So sometimes we have integrateddelivery that integrate the
models and also the laser scansand also some GIS layers.
So these kind of integrationshelp us a lot in delivering more
(35:14):
efficient digital deliverables.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Fantastic.
Thank you, mustafa.
And the final question of thefuture construct podcast and a
tradition of our show.
If you could project yourselfout 25 years and wanted to have
any device or technology thatwould benefit you personally,
what would it be and what wouldit do?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
In 25 years, I always imagined myself sitting with my
kids or the kids of my kids,playing with them and to help
myself.
After 25 years, I think it willbe something related to health.
So if it's some device that canenable me to play football with
(36:03):
sons of my sons, or somemetaverse solutions that can
help me do same activities withthem, I think that will be the
technologies that I need at thattime.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I love that.
That's fantastic.
How touching as well, and Ihope to see that for you as well
.
So I appreciate your time today.
I feel like there's so much Ican learn from you and so much
the industry can learn from you.
Thank you for all of yourcontributions, sir.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Thanks a lot, mark.
It was a pleasure being herewith you.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yes, absolutely.
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