August 13, 2025 • 29 mins
This week we’re joined by Dr Jonathan Foyle from the University of Bath to discuss their Conservation of Historic Buildings MSc. We cover the difference between conservation and restoration, climate change and working towards a sustainable future, and the countless career paths available.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to Future You,
the podcast brought to youby graduate careers experts, prospects.
I'm your host, Emily Slade,and in this episode,
I speak to Jonathan Foylefrom the University of Bath
about their Conservationof Historic buildings MSc.
Well, my name is Jonathan Foyle,and I teach Conservation of Historic
(00:20):
buildings at University of Bath. Or Bath, if you want. Depends how posh you are.
So, to begin with,if you want to just give a brief overview
of the program itself.
The MSc Masters in Historic Conservation,at Bath, it takes place
in the Department of Architecture,Civil Engineering and, each of the MSc.
(00:43):
is offered aroundBritain has a unique situation.
Some might be archeology, others media.
But, Bath
is tries to be a very broad course.
So its position in architecture,
civil engineering draws in the skillsets from those teaching staff.
And so you learn about project management.
You learn about structures.
And but also and what I specialise inis the humanities side of things.
(01:05):
So where does conservation come from?
What does significance mean?
What about the historyof the built environment?
How do we know what we're looking at?
And all of those questionsI always found fascinating.
So my background was studyingarchitecture, but then,
I did
a Master's degree in art historyand a PhD in archeology
(01:27):
because it's it's like anever ending quest, really.
You know, you can understand buildings,but then you realise that only
a certain number of buildings are leftand some of them partially survive.
And each one of those has information.
So we begin the course
by teaching you how to lookand how to think about conservation.
And then you build the skillsas you go through the year. Cool.
(01:49):
So when we say conservation, we're talkingabout keeping things as they are.
Would you say that's fair?
It's a frequent, assumption
about conservation is that we're tryingto make time stands still.
You know,pretend that nothing's ever happened or
return a building to its original state.
Names like renovation and conservation are often interchangeable, but
(02:14):
they're they're dramatically different.
Actually, when you think aboutthe renovation is to make something new.
Again, conservation isn't about that.
It's not about pretending timestands still.
If you were to crystallise it, you have to
say, is to make smart decisionsabout managing change.
Change is inevitable, butthere's good change in this bad change.
You know, amongst the most drastic thingsthat can happen to a building
(02:36):
is, collapse or neglect.
And just suddenly you seehow if maintenance doesn't happen,
buildingscan really accelerate in their decay, but
you find a really good user of a buildingwhich might otherwise be neglected.
You might have fallen out of out of use,it might be surplus to requirements,
(02:57):
but you get a good userwho's got imagination, and the building
can enter a really interesting new phasein its life.
I mean, like us all, you know,we all evolve will change and buildings
do the same thing.
They just need care and planning.
So what we teach,how to make good decisions.
What are the componentsof really good conservation?
(03:19):
How do you combine things like a business
plan and, something called a CMP,conservation management plan,
to enable you to think for the futureand to plan strategically
and cost effectively,and make the best of historic buildings
because once they're gone,they're gone and you can't get them back.
(03:41):
But often
a really smart set of decisions
can completely transform them.
So in a way, conservationis like every theater space
that's turned into a Wetherspoons.
Well, Wetherspoons,I suppose, is one form of conservation.
Yeah.
If you think about King's Cross station,it was authentic in its way.
(04:02):
There were lots of gas cylinders thereand in, in post-industrial landscape.
But it, it wasn't open to anybody.
It was fenced off and weeds and treeswere growing in there.
And it was, it was, it was just sad.
Sad and forlorn and derelict.
And, you know,
there can be a certain magicin those post-industrial sites, I suppose.
(04:24):
But in the middle of a city,you want the places to be useful.
There are millions of peoplewho live in this place
and pass through this station every year.
So the way that the King's Crosswas transformed
wasn't simply by putting a pub in it.
It was by, building new
infrastructure,creating new routes through this site,
using the canal that was always there
(04:45):
and having books,sold on barges, for example,
and seats down to thatcanal and new shops and new businesses.
There are jobs for people, all that'spart of the conservation landscape.
So, yeah, I mean, okay,you need a pint somewhere,
but we need more than thatas a, as a as a culture.
So the type of studentthat's going to take this course,
(05:06):
what's their backgroundgoing to look like.
We havestudents from all kinds of backgrounds.
You might be an architect.You could be a historian.
You might be a humanities student.
Maybe you do geographyand just want to change or something.
I mean, I know so many arthistorians came out of law
because the prospect of just trying to
take advantage of peoplewas too much for them,
and they want to do beautiful thingsinstead.
So look, the MSc Conservation,you can have lots
(05:29):
of different backgroundsbecause in fact it is a very broad course.
If you like legislation, then if you comefrom a law background, fantastic.
Or if you're organised, or maybe you like the humanities part.
And if you're a historian, you enjoy that.
If you're a scientist,let's say you did biology or chemistry
and you're interested in thingslike lime on buildings or pigments
(05:51):
or the analysis and treatment of wallpaintings, that kind of stuff.
You can use those skillsand build them in.
So the way that the course is structuredis to allow you to bring your background
to find a specialism in a certain area,
and then will help you to lookfor those vocational outcomes
and make the bestof where you've come from.
It is a
(06:11):
really broad church and that'swhat makes it fascinating,
because you're constantly learningfrom people with different kinds
of skills than yourself.
So what kind of careers would peoplethat take this program go on to do.
So conservation is.
It's happens around the worldbut in different cultures.
(06:34):
And those cultures have differentkinds of government bodies.
Different sorts of trustsfor example, and charities
and public engagementwith conservation. So.
We have students
that work, for example,with the Indian National Trust
for Arts and Archeology, and that'svery different to our National Trust.
(06:57):
It's more of a governmentover a body that oversees sites.
We have someone who, runs the,
conservation body in Canada,
someone who worksin the Saudi, government oversight.
And each of thosewill have a different kind of culture
because their legal frameworkswill be different.
The kinds of buildingsyou're talking about
between, let's say, SaudiArabia and Canada
(07:19):
are obviously goingto be totally different.
And so those skills
are often quite localised.
But when you break it downin England, it's particularly rich.
I mean, one of the countries along withthe United States, there are many others,
but we are one of the founding countriesof the conservation movement.
So, we have a very well developed,National Trust, you know, 5 million
(07:43):
members is something quite extraordinaryin comparison to their population size.
Right?
So there are lots of jobsin the National Trust, English Heritage
and Historic England,two sides of the same coin that run sites
but also provide oversight, thingslike listing, conservation officers,
supervisors of design in, in urban areasand countryside as well.
(08:04):
But then there are lots of charitieswho are set up because of things
like the the lottery funding thatthe UK has so that special conditions
have this very big, broad
rainbow of work with conservation.
And each of the projectsthat might be commissioned by those bodies
could have, someone like a paint analystwho tells you
(08:25):
what layers of paintyour building had over time.
You know, on a forensic level,that kind of work is fascinating.
You might actually comefrom a building background and do this.
I mean, I'd really love for buildingcompanies to to have some of their staff,
whether it's project management staffor some of their skilled builders,
to join us for a year and really build upthat sensibility on what conservation is.
(08:47):
And you could do you could do itfrom any part of the world, because
you take the framework that we give youand then apply it to your local,
needs through your innate interests.
So last year,one of my students was a Saudi student,
and he loved mud, mud architecturein Saudi.
Most of it's gone now,but the Saudi ministry has recognised
(09:10):
that it's it's preciousand needs to be looked after.
And he took a lead on it.
So his he chose for his dissertation,
an analysis of Saudi mud brick building.
And it was really insightful.
It's a very thorough job, you know.
And he made his contactsand he demonstrated his work
and he went back to Saudi and immediatelyemployable.
(09:32):
So, it's a it's a really rewarding thing.
And, you know, at my stage of career,
I've had lots of different kind of jobsover the ages.
Over the ages.
I say I get tells you something.
I've had lots of jobs over the years.
I'll say, in things like media.
And as a curator at Hampton Court,working on Canterbury Cathedral
(09:54):
as a consultant, I still do consultancy.
So, I really want to help train
a new generation to, think smart
and and get gainful employmentin the conservation sector.
So that's the reward to me,is to see students filling these places.
And they surprise me because,you know, around the world, you know,
(10:15):
they they teach back.
So I get a lot out of it.
Yeah.
I imaginethe skills are quite transferable as well.
And you talked about consultancy work.
I imagine you're useful in fulfillingneeds to check in
on a building that that's makingit look great and things like that.
Well I'm lucky that I knowpeople who work for film companies
in finding good, sitesfor film locations.
(10:39):
There's there's placesthat are well conserved
and they know them, and they knowthat things like the windows are correct.
There's so many filmsthat get made in Bath.
Yeah.
You know,and the windows are all bright white.
And if you're a nerd like meand you say, well, titanium,
what only happen from the 1920s.
So what do you mean, Mr. Darcy?
It doesn't really work,
but, but certainly people who are expertin understanding the built environment
(11:02):
and what it should look likein, let's say, Turners England,
for a film to be made,so, yeah, you can have lots of different,
places within, within conservation.
You can use, for example,historical skills and analysis
if you want to be a consultantfor people who own listed buildings.
And you may like the charmof an old building,
(11:25):
but you might be petrified by the ideaof needing permission to make changes.
But if you've got
a good consultant on your side,they will understand the building for you.
I know Army with reportsthat show to any conservation officer
that you understand what it isand is sympathetic to it,
and that understanding has informedyour proposed changes.
(11:45):
How can people argue against them?
Why would they?
I mean, they're just pleased to seethat level of understanding.
So that kind of work can be diverse.
It can keep you in business, you know, forfor many decades because, you know,
as we say, change will happenand it's about enabling it.
So now there's so many good jobsto be had.
And some of them you write for yourself.
(12:08):
Yeah.
And touching on that and touching onthe idea of the future
is sustainabilitysomething that you focus on a lot as well.
Conservationis at the forefront of sustainability.
And the University of Batharchitecture department prides itself
on sustainabilityin our architectural design.
But clearly one of the most sustainable
things is not to wreckwhat you've already got.
(12:31):
It's an act of humility as well.
It makes us appreciate what we've got,and we live in such a throwaway culture
that if we can retain
even something like a, let's say,a small terraced house has as much energy
in it as would take you to drive aroundthe world in a small car,
and the firingof bricks, the transportation of timber,
(12:53):
all of that embedded energyshouldn't be wasted
in a hole in the ground, you know,just requiring more carbon to be burnt.
So just keeping thingsis a major act of conservation.
We're also looking at very low impactmaintenance,
you know, doing the least necessaryto keep the place and the way that it is.
(13:15):
And using materialsas well of natural origin
that can be replaced and can be repairedrather than demolished.
I mean, one of the obvious differencesis the swathe of uPVC windows
that are in the housesup and down the country,
and it's poisonous to manufactureand you can't repair it.
So what happens?
You hit the ends up with skips.
(13:35):
It's supposed to be maintenance free
and the catch up there is thatit means you can't repair it.
So, it starts to weather, the aluminum turns back into bauxite.
The powderthat aluminum, you know, is made from.
And things will decay, things will change.
And if you can't repair them,it means they're skipped.
They're junked after 20 years.
(13:56):
You've got natural
materials you can piece in small parts,like a timber post.
If it rots a bit at the bottom,will then splice a piece
in, you know, and that gentle carelooking after what we've got,
that's really important.
But another aspect about historicbuildings is that, again,
they're at the forefront of energythinking because they're difficult.
Let's think about a churchwhere you've got a big volume,
(14:19):
and if you put the heating on,all the heat goes straight up to the roof,
and the roof can't be insulatedbecause it's 15th century timber,
big windows, what happens then?
You get this great cycle of hot air
going up, cold air coming downfrom the windows, and that you can't feel
the place heated up and you spendhundreds of pounds on heating.
Well, in the last few years,infrared has done
(14:41):
a big jobin rethinking how we heat people.
And infrared heat is, radiant.
And so if you direct raysat where people are,
it's like feelingsomething like a warm spring day.
It's like sunshine.
Infrared is essentially the wavelength ofsunshine, and it's extremely comfortable.
And it costs something like maybe 2/7
(15:05):
or maybe a third of the amountthat your regular heating will.
It's not burning oil.
You can put it on a renewables tariff.
And so suddenly we've got the technologyin place and the renewable
energy optionsto make historic buildings work again.
Sure, it needs some capital cost, butit's one of the things that we consider.
How much would this cost?
(15:27):
What would the effect be?
And and how can we
how can we green buildings,
so that they, efficient to run, you know,
a lot of people see them as money pits,but but we've got the technology.
It is time to change that now.
And so if we can produce a generation of,
people working within renewable energy.
(15:49):
Fantastically rewarding.
As you mentioned, quite a varietyof vocations that they could go into.
So how do you teach conservation
to prepare studentstowards those outcomes?
You know, it's it's it is a challenge
to teach conservation on a global scale.
I mean, imagine getting in a minibusand saying, right, we're off to India now.
(16:11):
Look, I mean, look at Hampior another great archeological site.
Tell you what, Machu Picchu next week,
get get get your boots on, kids.
You know, it's it's that's amazing.
It would be amazing. It would be.
But we do have, what we tend to do is webring in, specialists in conservation.
So it's not just the staff
teaching, it's people who are involvedin different kinds of projects.
(16:33):
On the groundnow, there are many examples of materials
like lime and mud building,which are, applicable around the world.
Adobe building, for example,in Latin American countries of using dried
mud bricks, and then plastering over them
(16:54):
is a very similar to thingto what happens in Mesopotamia
has done for thousands of years,or Egypt, for example, or India.
And people are thinking creativelyabout how to use such things
as, plastic bottles, which might go inlandfill as the core of walls that are
and then surrounded by mud, becauseactually they're really good insulators.
(17:17):
There are lots of creative thingsgoing on around the world.
So materials have this universal quality.
Once you know what the chemical makeup isand how they handle
that doesn't change much around the world.
You can just think about localapplications.
Legislation tends to be international
so that the various conservation chartersthat have emerged over the last 100 years
(17:40):
pretty much are thosewhich, countries are signatories to.
So there is a global, culture
of conservation, and you can apply thoseto many different countries.
So materials legislation,the thinking as well,
the philosophy behind conservation
is something which has contributionsfrom many different sorts of culture.
(18:00):
And the habits
that some people havewith historic buildings,
things that we bring intothe classroom to say, have you thought
about doing this or taking thatkind of approach, or what would happen
if we turned historic buildingsinto this model of living?
Let's say, we are, I think, in an agewhere people have access
(18:21):
to so much information on the internetthat,
and, and, climate is changing
and we need to learn from other culturesthings like planting with buildings.
So the behavior of materialswithin a warmer and drier world,
are all things that we're tryingto feed into this discussion.
(18:42):
So, the answer is, you know,how do we shape vocations,
and globally is to teach thingswhich have a universal value to them
and encourage studentsto think on their terms.
You know, from the backgroundthat they've come from the buildings
they used to think about these ideasand then work that into their coursework
(19:02):
in the spring.
We have a an interdisciplinary projectwhere you combine
your learning on, historyand how to analyse the built environment,
archival research, your structural
understanding and, all of that is combined
into one major projectwhere you're working in a team.
This yearit was a site in Bradford on Avon.
(19:24):
So beautiful historic town.
And we're thinking, what?
How can we make good interventionsin Bradford?
So, a couple of sitesthat people had to think about.
And one of the issues in that site
was that the river is now floodingmore than it has before.
So how do you make buildings flood proof?
That can require some quite radicalrethinking of what we think conservation
is. And I'm sure that any studentwho was involved in
(19:47):
that is going to go back to their owncountry and think, do you know what?
The world is changing around this?
And we have to figure out how to treatthe past to make it fit for the future.
So that's how we we we teach it,we think about universal themes
and we train people in issues that aregoing to have that global relevance.
(20:11):
Amazing.
What's the most interesting projectthat you've worked on?
I really like variety.
So if I said, what's the most interestingproject I've worked on professionally?
I spent eight years at Hampton Court,the building's curator there,
and it was, a marvelous arts
education.
So I did my PhD on working out.
(20:33):
How much had Cardinal Wolsey builtwhen he was Henry,
the eighth righthand man, and building this place in 1515?
Up to 1528, more or less.
And then Henrythe Eighth took it over and remodeled.
It took the credit for himselfand Cardinal Woolsey.
His papers ended up on a bonfire inNorfolk in the 18th century, most of them.
(20:55):
So now the history suits the winners.
We'd have to look through thatand figure out,
you know,without a lot of the evidence there,
how do we look at the buildingand then figure that out?
And that was a huge privilege toto be involved with the building of that
size and scaleand something you look back on and,
you know,pinch yourself that you had that chance.
(21:16):
So that's great.
But on the other hand,
more recently I've been asked by
people like homeowners,I think my house is older
than the listed building statementsays it is.
Someone has an end of terrace
Cottage in Hampshireby the coast, for example.
So it's sort of it's early 19th century,but I'm pretty sure it's older than that.
(21:38):
Can you tell me?
So I'll go along with my archeologicalhat on an a torch in it, and a camera
and notebooks and the rest of itand, peel back the layers.
And I really enjoy showing peoplewhat it is they live with
and whytheir house has the character it has.
And when people would have made changesbecause in fact,
(22:01):
this end of Terrace Cottagewas just one third of a medieval house
and she lived in the bedroom endto the medieval house.
And, so, someone else livedin the kitchen end at the far end.
And then the hole in the middle.
And once you ended up in the atticand you can see this roof structure
going through the whole thingand understand why, because the windows
(22:23):
were replaced in the 19th century,someone doing a drive by set up.
But that's, you know, that's lateGeorgian house
getting under the skineven of a small building
can be really richly rewarding,because you know that that's somewhere
that they've invested in over the years,that they feel is special to them.
And suddenly it's much more special,you know,
(22:45):
and you think about what how much ishow much does a house cost these days?
Because it's a nominal amount of money.
Too much.
Some might say.
Yeah, but the investment,the modest investment in Foyle Services
means no, just it just
for notmuch money, you've actually transform
your appreciation for somethingwhich is a major part of your life.
And I get a kick out of that.
(23:07):
So, getting there, there'sso many ways in which,
work can be interesting.
What happens of course, as a student isyou start off building the tools,
students who questionwhy they're being told things,
are always interesting
because the next generationalways has slightly different ideas
(23:28):
and understanding,and it takes that rebellion
to start to question,why do we believe what we believe?
And sometimes it might reinforcethe reasons for that belief.
But, the the cracks might show
and some of the best students are thosethat say, look, where are the cracks?
And what happens if we just leave themopen a bit and, and look underneath there.
(23:51):
That's where research startsto find new solutions.
And I'm always interested in studentswho come to me
and say, well, I'll challenge thatbecause I welcome it.
Can you look at a buildingand tell everyone when it was built?
Pretty much. That's pretty cool.
And when you were at Hampton Court Palace,
did you come across the ghost of CatherineHoward, screaming Catherine Howard?
Yeah.
Who by repute,thunders down the haunted gallery,
(24:15):
hence its name outside the chapel.
Or receiving that bad news?
No, I didn't know the best I could do.
And I was with us with the previousarcheologists at the time.
Is that,
We went up
stairs into the oldest part of the palace,and both of us had a cockerel
crowing and, the, no chickens kept at Hampton Court.
(24:36):
But they used to be a scolding housewhere chickens were put into boiling water
to pluck their feathers.
I want you to rage those chickens.
Both of us.
We like to think that we tunedinto a ghost.
Yeah.
Amazing.
So sort of we've sort of touched on it,but experiences and rewards
that make the conservativesstay interested in their work.
(24:59):
Yeah.
The experiences and rewards,
something akin to what I've just describedas the
you don't know what your next projectis going to be very often,
even if you're working, let's say,for the National
Trust or English Heritage,one of the government bodies,
or you're a consultant,then what's going to turn up?
(25:20):
What's the next project going to be?
And let's say you think you know what,that project lands on the inbox.
You say, oh, for the next four years,we're going to be working on completely
turning around this great Georgian countryhouse or something into,
a new chapter.
But there's so much to discover.
There's opening up,which shows you phases.
(25:41):
It may not just be a Georgian house,that may be an older core to it,
that the Georgian house is built around.
Let's say, you're going to be learningabout the history of the occupants,
how much of the building is authentic
and how much has been pieced togetherover the years.
You might be looking at thingslike the decorative history,
the color of the paintwork,what's what's remains and what's lost.
(26:04):
And how do you mitigate that?
Can things be recovered?
All of that research is,you know, that's one big part of it,
the project management aspects of
what are we going to do and whyand in what order.
And, where do we get the money fromand those kinds of issues.
Yeah, that can be fascinating.
If you're a project management minded.
And then how's the thinggoing to be run and managed?
(26:26):
And how do we market it?
How do we get the word out? And, I
taught the media side of,
conservation for numerous, episodes at Bath.
I mean, I did one day a year for a decade,and that because in a previous job,
I used to be
used to run something called the WorldMonuments Fund, the British branch.
(26:47):
So we raised money for sites.
So the the way in which you conceive
a projectand then how you get the word out
and explain what you're doingand build support.
That's something I've been used to.
And it's really fundamentalto a successful project is is engaging
a community, engaging supportersand making people feel
(27:09):
that they can be a part of this positivechange.
It's it'ssuch a it's such an important part.
And there will be people that come
from a conservation training backgroundwho want to be part of that,
you know, write the text, buildthe membership, organise the events.
That kind of stuff. Because it's,
it's just another aspect. So,
(27:30):
yeah, even a simple sounding
thing is complexand it keeps you interested
because the stages will roll forwardand you'll be building on your successes.
And then finally, one daythe thing will be finished
and the doors will open, and you'll say,it went from that into this.
And I played my part in that.
(27:51):
And I've got to say,there are few jobs that are as tangibly
rewardingas transforming the built environment.
Honoring what?
What was gifted to us from the past,
and then actually lookingafter generations to come by handing
that over in a, in a, in a formthat is useful and beautiful.
(28:13):
I mean, I don't know what elseI'd want out of a career, but fantastic.
If potential students are interested
in learning more,can they get in touch with you?
They can, yeah.
Via admissions at the University of Bath.
So you'll see an MSc course pagewith information.
Scroll to the bottom to see a filmthat we've recently put together
on site in Bradford, on Avon and in BathAbbey and other of the sites around the.
(28:37):
I mean, we're so lucky
for a glorious built environmentin Bath, in Bristol, in Somerset,
not far from London.
But you'll see,
you'll get a sense of that in the filmif you like what you see.
Yeah.
Do write to admissions and admissionscan, organise
as a 1 to 1 formif you want to talk to a course convener.
(28:57):
And, we'd be delighted. Perfect.
So thank you so much for your time today.Thank you. Thanks.
Thanks again to Jonathan for their time.
For more information on the course,check out the show notes below.
For a full length videoversion of this episode,
head to our YouTube channel @futureyoupod.
If you enjoyed the episode, feel freeto leave us a review on Apple or Spotify.
(29:17):
Thank you, as always for listeningand good luck on your journey to future you.
Hello and welcome back to Future You,
the podcast brought to youby graduate careers experts, prospects.
I'm your host, Emily Slade,and in this episode,
I speak to Jonathan Foylefrom the University of Bath
about their Conservationof Historic buildings MSc.
Well, my name is Jonathan Foyle,and I teach Conservation of Historic
(00:20):
buildings at University of Bath. Or Bath, if you want. Depends how posh you are.
So, to begin with,if you want to just give a brief overview
of the program itself.
The MSc Masters in Historic Conservation,at Bath, it takes place
in the Department of Architecture,Civil Engineering and, each of the MSc.
(00:43):
is offered aroundBritain has a unique situation.
Some might be archeology, others media.
But, Bath
is tries to be a very broad course.
So its position in architecture,
civil engineering draws in the skillsets from those teaching staff.
And so you learn about project management.
You learn about structures.
And but also and what I specialise inis the humanities side of things.
(01:05):
So where does conservation come from?
What does significance mean?
What about the historyof the built environment?
How do we know what we're looking at?
And all of those questionsI always found fascinating.
So my background was studyingarchitecture, but then,
I did
a Master's degree in art historyand a PhD in archeology
(01:27):
because it's it's like anever ending quest, really.
You know, you can understand buildings,but then you realise that only
a certain number of buildings are leftand some of them partially survive.
And each one of those has information.
So we begin the course
by teaching you how to lookand how to think about conservation.
And then you build the skillsas you go through the year. Cool.
(01:49):
So when we say conservation, we're talkingabout keeping things as they are.
Would you say that's fair?
It's a frequent, assumption
about conservation is that we're tryingto make time stands still.
You know,pretend that nothing's ever happened or
return a building to its original state.
Names like renovation and conservation are often interchangeable, but
(02:14):
they're they're dramatically different.
Actually, when you think aboutthe renovation is to make something new.
Again, conservation isn't about that.
It's not about pretending timestands still.
If you were to crystallise it, you have to
say, is to make smart decisionsabout managing change.
Change is inevitable, butthere's good change in this bad change.
You know, amongst the most drastic thingsthat can happen to a building
(02:36):
is, collapse or neglect.
And just suddenly you seehow if maintenance doesn't happen,
buildingscan really accelerate in their decay, but
you find a really good user of a buildingwhich might otherwise be neglected.
You might have fallen out of out of use,it might be surplus to requirements,
(02:57):
but you get a good userwho's got imagination, and the building
can enter a really interesting new phasein its life.
I mean, like us all, you know,we all evolve will change and buildings
do the same thing.
They just need care and planning.
So what we teach,how to make good decisions.
What are the componentsof really good conservation?
(03:19):
How do you combine things like a business
plan and, something called a CMP,conservation management plan,
to enable you to think for the futureand to plan strategically
and cost effectively,and make the best of historic buildings
because once they're gone,they're gone and you can't get them back.
(03:41):
But often
a really smart set of decisions
can completely transform them.
So in a way, conservationis like every theater space
that's turned into a Wetherspoons.
Well, Wetherspoons,I suppose, is one form of conservation.
Yeah.
If you think about King's Cross station,it was authentic in its way.
(04:02):
There were lots of gas cylinders thereand in, in post-industrial landscape.
But it, it wasn't open to anybody.
It was fenced off and weeds and treeswere growing in there.
And it was, it was, it was just sad.
Sad and forlorn and derelict.
And, you know,
there can be a certain magicin those post-industrial sites, I suppose.
(04:24):
But in the middle of a city,you want the places to be useful.
There are millions of peoplewho live in this place
and pass through this station every year.
So the way that the King's Crosswas transformed
wasn't simply by putting a pub in it.
It was by, building new
infrastructure,creating new routes through this site,
using the canal that was always there
(04:45):
and having books,sold on barges, for example,
and seats down to thatcanal and new shops and new businesses.
There are jobs for people, all that'spart of the conservation landscape.
So, yeah, I mean, okay,you need a pint somewhere,
but we need more than thatas a, as a as a culture.
So the type of studentthat's going to take this course,
(05:06):
what's their backgroundgoing to look like.
We havestudents from all kinds of backgrounds.
You might be an architect.You could be a historian.
You might be a humanities student.
Maybe you do geographyand just want to change or something.
I mean, I know so many arthistorians came out of law
because the prospect of just trying to
take advantage of peoplewas too much for them,
and they want to do beautiful thingsinstead.
So look, the MSc Conservation,you can have lots
(05:29):
of different backgroundsbecause in fact it is a very broad course.
If you like legislation, then if you comefrom a law background, fantastic.
Or if you're organised, or maybe you like the humanities part.
And if you're a historian, you enjoy that.
If you're a scientist,let's say you did biology or chemistry
and you're interested in thingslike lime on buildings or pigments
(05:51):
or the analysis and treatment of wallpaintings, that kind of stuff.
You can use those skillsand build them in.
So the way that the course is structuredis to allow you to bring your background
to find a specialism in a certain area,
and then will help you to lookfor those vocational outcomes
and make the bestof where you've come from.
It is a
(06:11):
really broad church and that'swhat makes it fascinating,
because you're constantly learningfrom people with different kinds
of skills than yourself.
So what kind of careers would peoplethat take this program go on to do.
So conservation is.
It's happens around the worldbut in different cultures.
(06:34):
And those cultures have differentkinds of government bodies.
Different sorts of trustsfor example, and charities
and public engagementwith conservation. So.
We have students
that work, for example,with the Indian National Trust
for Arts and Archeology, and that'svery different to our National Trust.
(06:57):
It's more of a governmentover a body that oversees sites.
We have someone who, runs the,
conservation body in Canada,
someone who worksin the Saudi, government oversight.
And each of thosewill have a different kind of culture
because their legal frameworkswill be different.
The kinds of buildingsyou're talking about
between, let's say, SaudiArabia and Canada
(07:19):
are obviously goingto be totally different.
And so those skills
are often quite localised.
But when you break it downin England, it's particularly rich.
I mean, one of the countries along withthe United States, there are many others,
but we are one of the founding countriesof the conservation movement.
So, we have a very well developed,National Trust, you know, 5 million
(07:43):
members is something quite extraordinaryin comparison to their population size.
Right?
So there are lots of jobsin the National Trust, English Heritage
and Historic England,two sides of the same coin that run sites
but also provide oversight, thingslike listing, conservation officers,
supervisors of design in, in urban areasand countryside as well.
(08:04):
But then there are lots of charitieswho are set up because of things
like the the lottery funding thatthe UK has so that special conditions
have this very big, broad
rainbow of work with conservation.
And each of the projectsthat might be commissioned by those bodies
could have, someone like a paint analystwho tells you
(08:25):
what layers of paintyour building had over time.
You know, on a forensic level,that kind of work is fascinating.
You might actually comefrom a building background and do this.
I mean, I'd really love for buildingcompanies to to have some of their staff,
whether it's project management staffor some of their skilled builders,
to join us for a year and really build upthat sensibility on what conservation is.
(08:47):
And you could do you could do itfrom any part of the world, because
you take the framework that we give youand then apply it to your local,
needs through your innate interests.
So last year,one of my students was a Saudi student,
and he loved mud, mud architecturein Saudi.
Most of it's gone now,but the Saudi ministry has recognised
(09:10):
that it's it's preciousand needs to be looked after.
And he took a lead on it.
So his he chose for his dissertation,
an analysis of Saudi mud brick building.
And it was really insightful.
It's a very thorough job, you know.
And he made his contactsand he demonstrated his work
and he went back to Saudi and immediatelyemployable.
(09:32):
So, it's a it's a really rewarding thing.
And, you know, at my stage of career,
I've had lots of different kind of jobsover the ages.
Over the ages.
I say I get tells you something.
I've had lots of jobs over the years.
I'll say, in things like media.
And as a curator at Hampton Court,working on Canterbury Cathedral
(09:54):
as a consultant, I still do consultancy.
So, I really want to help train
a new generation to, think smart
and and get gainful employmentin the conservation sector.
So that's the reward to me,is to see students filling these places.
And they surprise me because,you know, around the world, you know,
(10:15):
they they teach back.
So I get a lot out of it.
Yeah.
I imaginethe skills are quite transferable as well.
And you talked about consultancy work.
I imagine you're useful in fulfillingneeds to check in
on a building that that's makingit look great and things like that.
Well I'm lucky that I knowpeople who work for film companies
in finding good, sitesfor film locations.
(10:39):
There's there's placesthat are well conserved
and they know them, and they knowthat things like the windows are correct.
There's so many filmsthat get made in Bath.
Yeah.
You know,and the windows are all bright white.
And if you're a nerd like meand you say, well, titanium,
what only happen from the 1920s.
So what do you mean, Mr. Darcy?
It doesn't really work,
but, but certainly people who are expertin understanding the built environment
(11:02):
and what it should look likein, let's say, Turners England,
for a film to be made,so, yeah, you can have lots of different,
places within, within conservation.
You can use, for example,historical skills and analysis
if you want to be a consultantfor people who own listed buildings.
And you may like the charmof an old building,
(11:25):
but you might be petrified by the ideaof needing permission to make changes.
But if you've got
a good consultant on your side,they will understand the building for you.
I know Army with reportsthat show to any conservation officer
that you understand what it isand is sympathetic to it,
and that understanding has informedyour proposed changes.
(11:45):
How can people argue against them?
Why would they?
I mean, they're just pleased to seethat level of understanding.
So that kind of work can be diverse.
It can keep you in business, you know, forfor many decades because, you know,
as we say, change will happenand it's about enabling it.
So now there's so many good jobsto be had.
And some of them you write for yourself.
(12:08):
Yeah.
And touching on that and touching onthe idea of the future
is sustainabilitysomething that you focus on a lot as well.
Conservationis at the forefront of sustainability.
And the University of Batharchitecture department prides itself
on sustainabilityin our architectural design.
But clearly one of the most sustainable
things is not to wreckwhat you've already got.
(12:31):
It's an act of humility as well.
It makes us appreciate what we've got,and we live in such a throwaway culture
that if we can retain
even something like a, let's say,a small terraced house has as much energy
in it as would take you to drive aroundthe world in a small car,
and the firingof bricks, the transportation of timber,
(12:53):
all of that embedded energyshouldn't be wasted
in a hole in the ground, you know,just requiring more carbon to be burnt.
So just keeping thingsis a major act of conservation.
We're also looking at very low impactmaintenance,
you know, doing the least necessaryto keep the place and the way that it is.
(13:15):
And using materialsas well of natural origin
that can be replaced and can be repairedrather than demolished.
I mean, one of the obvious differencesis the swathe of uPVC windows
that are in the housesup and down the country,
and it's poisonous to manufactureand you can't repair it.
So what happens?
You hit the ends up with skips.
(13:35):
It's supposed to be maintenance free
and the catch up there is thatit means you can't repair it.
So, it starts to weather, the aluminum turns back into bauxite.
The powderthat aluminum, you know, is made from.
And things will decay, things will change.
And if you can't repair them,it means they're skipped.
They're junked after 20 years.
(13:56):
You've got natural
materials you can piece in small parts,like a timber post.
If it rots a bit at the bottom,will then splice a piece
in, you know, and that gentle carelooking after what we've got,
that's really important.
But another aspect about historicbuildings is that, again,
they're at the forefront of energythinking because they're difficult.
Let's think about a churchwhere you've got a big volume,
(14:19):
and if you put the heating on,all the heat goes straight up to the roof,
and the roof can't be insulatedbecause it's 15th century timber,
big windows, what happens then?
You get this great cycle of hot air
going up, cold air coming downfrom the windows, and that you can't feel
the place heated up and you spendhundreds of pounds on heating.
Well, in the last few years,infrared has done
(14:41):
a big jobin rethinking how we heat people.
And infrared heat is, radiant.
And so if you direct raysat where people are,
it's like feelingsomething like a warm spring day.
It's like sunshine.
Infrared is essentially the wavelength ofsunshine, and it's extremely comfortable.
And it costs something like maybe 2/7
(15:05):
or maybe a third of the amountthat your regular heating will.
It's not burning oil.
You can put it on a renewables tariff.
And so suddenly we've got the technologyin place and the renewable
energy optionsto make historic buildings work again.
Sure, it needs some capital cost, butit's one of the things that we consider.
How much would this cost?
(15:27):
What would the effect be?
And and how can we
how can we green buildings,
so that they, efficient to run, you know,
a lot of people see them as money pits,but but we've got the technology.
It is time to change that now.
And so if we can produce a generation of,
people working within renewable energy.
(15:49):
Fantastically rewarding.
As you mentioned, quite a varietyof vocations that they could go into.
So how do you teach conservation
to prepare studentstowards those outcomes?
You know, it's it's it is a challenge
to teach conservation on a global scale.
I mean, imagine getting in a minibusand saying, right, we're off to India now.
(16:11):
Look, I mean, look at Hampior another great archeological site.
Tell you what, Machu Picchu next week,
get get get your boots on, kids.
You know, it's it's that's amazing.
It would be amazing. It would be.
But we do have, what we tend to do is webring in, specialists in conservation.
So it's not just the staff
teaching, it's people who are involvedin different kinds of projects.
(16:33):
On the groundnow, there are many examples of materials
like lime and mud building,which are, applicable around the world.
Adobe building, for example,in Latin American countries of using dried
mud bricks, and then plastering over them
(16:54):
is a very similar to thingto what happens in Mesopotamia
has done for thousands of years,or Egypt, for example, or India.
And people are thinking creativelyabout how to use such things
as, plastic bottles, which might go inlandfill as the core of walls that are
and then surrounded by mud, becauseactually they're really good insulators.
(17:17):
There are lots of creative thingsgoing on around the world.
So materials have this universal quality.
Once you know what the chemical makeup isand how they handle
that doesn't change much around the world.
You can just think about localapplications.
Legislation tends to be international
so that the various conservation chartersthat have emerged over the last 100 years
(17:40):
pretty much are thosewhich, countries are signatories to.
So there is a global, culture
of conservation, and you can apply thoseto many different countries.
So materials legislation,the thinking as well,
the philosophy behind conservation
is something which has contributionsfrom many different sorts of culture.
(18:00):
And the habits
that some people havewith historic buildings,
things that we bring intothe classroom to say, have you thought
about doing this or taking thatkind of approach, or what would happen
if we turned historic buildingsinto this model of living?
Let's say, we are, I think, in an agewhere people have access
(18:21):
to so much information on the internetthat,
and, and, climate is changing
and we need to learn from other culturesthings like planting with buildings.
So the behavior of materialswithin a warmer and drier world,
are all things that we're tryingto feed into this discussion.
(18:42):
So, the answer is, you know,how do we shape vocations,
and globally is to teach thingswhich have a universal value to them
and encourage studentsto think on their terms.
You know, from the backgroundthat they've come from the buildings
they used to think about these ideasand then work that into their coursework
(19:02):
in the spring.
We have a an interdisciplinary projectwhere you combine
your learning on, historyand how to analyse the built environment,
archival research, your structural
understanding and, all of that is combined
into one major projectwhere you're working in a team.
This yearit was a site in Bradford on Avon.
(19:24):
So beautiful historic town.
And we're thinking, what?
How can we make good interventionsin Bradford?
So, a couple of sitesthat people had to think about.
And one of the issues in that site
was that the river is now floodingmore than it has before.
So how do you make buildings flood proof?
That can require some quite radicalrethinking of what we think conservation
is. And I'm sure that any studentwho was involved in
(19:47):
that is going to go back to their owncountry and think, do you know what?
The world is changing around this?
And we have to figure out how to treatthe past to make it fit for the future.
So that's how we we we teach it,we think about universal themes
and we train people in issues that aregoing to have that global relevance.
(20:11):
Amazing.
What's the most interesting projectthat you've worked on?
I really like variety.
So if I said, what's the most interestingproject I've worked on professionally?
I spent eight years at Hampton Court,the building's curator there,
and it was, a marvelous arts
education.
So I did my PhD on working out.
(20:33):
How much had Cardinal Wolsey builtwhen he was Henry,
the eighth righthand man, and building this place in 1515?
Up to 1528, more or less.
And then Henrythe Eighth took it over and remodeled.
It took the credit for himselfand Cardinal Woolsey.
His papers ended up on a bonfire inNorfolk in the 18th century, most of them.
(20:55):
So now the history suits the winners.
We'd have to look through thatand figure out,
you know,without a lot of the evidence there,
how do we look at the buildingand then figure that out?
And that was a huge privilege toto be involved with the building of that
size and scaleand something you look back on and,
you know,pinch yourself that you had that chance.
(21:16):
So that's great.
But on the other hand,
more recently I've been asked by
people like homeowners,I think my house is older
than the listed building statementsays it is.
Someone has an end of terrace
Cottage in Hampshireby the coast, for example.
So it's sort of it's early 19th century,but I'm pretty sure it's older than that.
(21:38):
Can you tell me?
So I'll go along with my archeologicalhat on an a torch in it, and a camera
and notebooks and the rest of itand, peel back the layers.
And I really enjoy showing peoplewhat it is they live with
and whytheir house has the character it has.
And when people would have made changesbecause in fact,
(22:01):
this end of Terrace Cottagewas just one third of a medieval house
and she lived in the bedroom endto the medieval house.
And, so, someone else livedin the kitchen end at the far end.
And then the hole in the middle.
And once you ended up in the atticand you can see this roof structure
going through the whole thingand understand why, because the windows
(22:23):
were replaced in the 19th century,someone doing a drive by set up.
But that's, you know, that's lateGeorgian house
getting under the skineven of a small building
can be really richly rewarding,because you know that that's somewhere
that they've invested in over the years,that they feel is special to them.
And suddenly it's much more special,you know,
(22:45):
and you think about what how much ishow much does a house cost these days?
Because it's a nominal amount of money.
Too much.
Some might say.
Yeah, but the investment,the modest investment in Foyle Services
means no, just it just
for notmuch money, you've actually transform
your appreciation for somethingwhich is a major part of your life.
And I get a kick out of that.
(23:07):
So, getting there, there'sso many ways in which,
work can be interesting.
What happens of course, as a student isyou start off building the tools,
students who questionwhy they're being told things,
are always interesting
because the next generationalways has slightly different ideas
(23:28):
and understanding,and it takes that rebellion
to start to question,why do we believe what we believe?
And sometimes it might reinforcethe reasons for that belief.
But, the the cracks might show
and some of the best students are thosethat say, look, where are the cracks?
And what happens if we just leave themopen a bit and, and look underneath there.
(23:51):
That's where research startsto find new solutions.
And I'm always interested in studentswho come to me
and say, well, I'll challenge thatbecause I welcome it.
Can you look at a buildingand tell everyone when it was built?
Pretty much. That's pretty cool.
And when you were at Hampton Court Palace,
did you come across the ghost of CatherineHoward, screaming Catherine Howard?
Yeah.
Who by repute,thunders down the haunted gallery,
(24:15):
hence its name outside the chapel.
Or receiving that bad news?
No, I didn't know the best I could do.
And I was with us with the previousarcheologists at the time.
Is that,
We went up
stairs into the oldest part of the palace,and both of us had a cockerel
crowing and, the, no chickens kept at Hampton Court.
(24:36):
But they used to be a scolding housewhere chickens were put into boiling water
to pluck their feathers.
I want you to rage those chickens.
Both of us.
We like to think that we tunedinto a ghost.
Yeah.
Amazing.
So sort of we've sort of touched on it,but experiences and rewards
that make the conservativesstay interested in their work.
(24:59):
Yeah.
The experiences and rewards,
something akin to what I've just describedas the
you don't know what your next projectis going to be very often,
even if you're working, let's say,for the National
Trust or English Heritage,one of the government bodies,
or you're a consultant,then what's going to turn up?
(25:20):
What's the next project going to be?
And let's say you think you know what,that project lands on the inbox.
You say, oh, for the next four years,we're going to be working on completely
turning around this great Georgian countryhouse or something into,
a new chapter.
But there's so much to discover.
There's opening up,which shows you phases.
(25:41):
It may not just be a Georgian house,that may be an older core to it,
that the Georgian house is built around.
Let's say, you're going to be learningabout the history of the occupants,
how much of the building is authentic
and how much has been pieced togetherover the years.
You might be looking at thingslike the decorative history,
the color of the paintwork,what's what's remains and what's lost.
(26:04):
And how do you mitigate that?
Can things be recovered?
All of that research is,you know, that's one big part of it,
the project management aspects of
what are we going to do and whyand in what order.
And, where do we get the money fromand those kinds of issues.
Yeah, that can be fascinating.
If you're a project management minded.
And then how's the thinggoing to be run and managed?
(26:26):
And how do we market it?
How do we get the word out? And, I
taught the media side of,
conservation for numerous, episodes at Bath.
I mean, I did one day a year for a decade,and that because in a previous job,
I used to be
used to run something called the WorldMonuments Fund, the British branch.
(26:47):
So we raised money for sites.
So the the way in which you conceive
a projectand then how you get the word out
and explain what you're doingand build support.
That's something I've been used to.
And it's really fundamentalto a successful project is is engaging
a community, engaging supportersand making people feel
(27:09):
that they can be a part of this positivechange.
It's it'ssuch a it's such an important part.
And there will be people that come
from a conservation training backgroundwho want to be part of that,
you know, write the text, buildthe membership, organise the events.
That kind of stuff. Because it's,
it's just another aspect. So,
(27:30):
yeah, even a simple sounding
thing is complexand it keeps you interested
because the stages will roll forwardand you'll be building on your successes.
And then finally, one daythe thing will be finished
and the doors will open, and you'll say,it went from that into this.
And I played my part in that.
(27:51):
And I've got to say,there are few jobs that are as tangibly
rewardingas transforming the built environment.
Honoring what?
What was gifted to us from the past,
and then actually lookingafter generations to come by handing
that over in a, in a, in a formthat is useful and beautiful.
(28:13):
I mean, I don't know what elseI'd want out of a career, but fantastic.
If potential students are interested
in learning more,can they get in touch with you?
They can, yeah.
Via admissions at the University of Bath.
So you'll see an MSc course pagewith information.
Scroll to the bottom to see a filmthat we've recently put together
on site in Bradford, on Avon and in BathAbbey and other of the sites around the.
(28:37):
I mean, we're so lucky
for a glorious built environmentin Bath, in Bristol, in Somerset,
not far from London.
But you'll see,
you'll get a sense of that in the filmif you like what you see.
Yeah.
Do write to admissions and admissionscan, organise
as a 1 to 1 formif you want to talk to a course convener.
(28:57):
And, we'd be delighted. Perfect.
So thank you so much for your time today.Thank you. Thanks.
Thanks again to Jonathan for their time.
For more information on the course,check out the show notes below.
For a full length videoversion of this episode,
head to our YouTube channel @futureyoupod.
If you enjoyed the episode, feel freeto leave us a review on Apple or Spotify.
(29:17):
Thank you, as always for listeningand good luck on your journey to future you.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.