The New Builder Mindset — JJ Englert, NoCode Alliance - Futureproof by Xano

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
AI has kind of forced our hand to be learners
again in the best way becauseit's really changing how we
operate in every capacity ofbusiness.
Automation, efficiency,communication, everything has
never been a better time to be abuilder, to think about, you
know, where we're going in thefuture and to leverage the
technology to really buildsomething.
Uh that it's more accessiblethan ever before.

SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Welcome to Future Proof.
My name is Prakash Chandran, theCEO of Xano.
Today I'm joined by JJ Englert,a filmmaker turn technologist
who's built a career in helpingothers create with AI and no
code.
Before entering tech, JJ spentseven years in the film industry
as a producer and director,creating work that reached over
a hundred million viewers andearned recognition from the

(00:57):
Producers Guild of America andthe college Emmys.
In 2017, he made the leap intostartups, building and selling
several SaaS products, leadingproduct and engineering teams,
and learning what it reallytakes to bring ideas to life
quickly.
Today, JJ leads community andeducation at Software.
Awesome.
I love our friends at Software,supporting more than 900,000

(01:19):
users through programs likeSoftware Academy and the expert
network helping builders learn,launch, and scale.
Finally, he's also the founderof No Code Alliance and the host
of This Week in No Code Plus AI,Spotify's top-rated No Code
podcast, where he talks withfounders and innovators about
how AI is changing the way webuild and create.

(01:40):
JJ, so happy to have you here,man.
We've been uh friends and kindof in each other's space for a
lot of years now.
And it's great to be.
Yeah, man.
It's been, it's, it's great.
And I've I've watched you grow.
I've uh watched you had so muchimpact from a distance and
always admired uh what you'vedone for the community.

(02:01):
So I'm just very grateful uh notonly to know you, but that you
would make the time to do this.

SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Oh man, that says so much.
Thank you.
There's a very kind intro.
It's the the the pleasure ismine, honestly.
I could say the same thing rightback at you.
We've been riding in the samecircles for the last three to
four years.
Uh, really admire the way you'vebeen building this company and
what it's grown into.
I mean, I remember when youfirst launched and and kind of
where we're at now with Zeno andall that it could do.
It's what an exciting journey.

(02:27):
And also we think back three tofour years ago.
I mean, I wouldn't have reallypredicted we would be here
today, but where we are today isreally awesome and really fun.
And I'm sure we're gonna getinto it, but what a time.

SPEAKER_00 (02:40):
What a time indeed.
Well, you know, I think forthose that don't know you,
obviously I I read theintroduction.
You know, what the time I metyou, you were already kind of on
your tech journey.
But maybe tell us a little bitabout kind of the beginnings,
uh, you know, kind of thestorytelling in your kind of
background and your career andwhat led you up to what you're
doing today.

SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
Yeah, thanks.
I'll I'll try and keep it short.
But um, so I grew up inRochester, New York.
I was always an athlete, etcetera.
And then when everybody wasgetting their college admissions
letter, I never, I never did.
And I was just like one of thosepeople that never really focused
on my studies.
I was a jock.
And then like senior year,everyone was going away to
college and like, what am Igonna do?
And I just didn't know.

(03:20):
And uh one afternoon I waswatching this movie, and the
movie really just spoke to meand really gave me true
emotions.
And I was like, well, I'm notsmart enough to be an engineer,
I'm not smart enough to be aninventor or whatever, but I want
to bring things to life.
Like I want to create thingsthat make uh people have
feelings or emotions and createimpact, right?
And for me, that was just like,well, if I if I do this through

(03:41):
filmmaking, I can write ascript, I can film it, I can
bring it to life.
That could be the mechanism forme.
And so um I worked up, I uh Iwas a roofer uh and I saved up
some money and I got in my carand I drove to California.
And I had arrived in California,I didn't know a single person in
the entire state.
My roommates were off aCraigslist.
Uh, and then a year later, I wasthe student body president of

(04:03):
that college and was uh startingto have really good grades.
I ended up getting to a reallygood film school.
Uh my senior portfolio projectwon a College Academy Award with
the uh Emmy Foundation.
I quickly joined the Producers'Guild of America and then went
on to make uh commercials,feature films, music videos, et
cetera, in Los Angeles for likeseven years.
And then eventually I was aproducer hiring and making films

(04:26):
all over the world.
And every time I'd go to a newlocation, I'd need to find local
film crew.
And it was really hard for me todo that.
Uh, and I wanted to find likelocal good talent.
And so that's when my first ideafor a tech startup was like,
maybe I could just have a verysimple marketplace, a directory
that could help find local filmcrew in each area.
And I had no idea about tech atthe time.

(04:46):
I had like, and I was like,maybe I could just do like a
WordPress site or whatever.
And I quickly learned that I'mgonna need something a little
bit more.
Uh, and I got connected withthis really, really superior
engineer.
He used to work at Microsoft,and he's like, well, we could
build a.NET and all this kind ofstuff.
And I was like, I have no idea,but it sounds great.
Let's do it.
And what had what that was 2017,and that led me into my first

(05:07):
journey of let's createsomething.
Oh, wait, we need more money,let's raise some money.
Went through the San FranciscoVenture Circuit, went uh Angel
Investors, all that kind ofstuff, and just really was
learning and failing andlearning and failing.
And uh that cycle untileventually in like 2019, when we

(05:28):
literally ran out of money.
And I was like, listen, I lovebeing able to create, I love
being a founder, but I can'talways be the one having to pay
to like make something.
Like, I gotta be the onebuilding this stuff.
If I'm gonna do it, I need toknow how to learn how to build
it.
But I honestly I didn't think Iwas smart enough to be able to
build it myself.
And I was just like, I justdon't think I could do it.
And um it I'm until I eventuallygot to a dark place, I was like,

(05:51):
I've got to shut down thiscompany or else I'm gonna have
to learn to build it myself.
And I was like, that was thething that pushed me off.
And at that time, in like 20 uh18, oh it's 2019, I saw Gregory
John's Udemy course of how tolearn how to build and bubble.
And it was just like oneplatform, you could build this
MVP like Airbnb.
And I was just like, it's a$12Udemy course.

(06:13):
I gotta give it a try.
And I had quickly got throughone lesson.
I was like, I'll try anotherone.
And I'll try, and then I waslike, I had already been working
with the product team for awhile.
I knew how stuff started comingtogether, and now I could just
drag it on the screen and startdoing stuff, and everything just
unlocked for me.
And at that point on 2019, I hadbecome unhealthily addicted to

(06:36):
building with no code, uh, andhad formed my whole identity
around building, learning, andcreating community about
building uh, you know, softwarewith no code.
And it led me on to this lastfour or five years of just
building as much as I can,learning as much as I can, and
then just sharing it with otherpeople.

SPEAKER_00 (06:53):
Yeah, the uh it's it that is such a fascinating
journey, just kind of like withuh foundational mission of kind
of bringing things to life.
Um, you know, in 2019, when youstarted working uh with Bubble,
and again, the context which Imet you, I think was around
2021.
Um, I just saw you as kind oflike a mentor and a teacher to

(07:14):
the space, enabling others.
Where do you feel like that camefrom?
Was that always an innate partof um just like who you are as a
like growing up as a kid, or didthat come later?

SPEAKER_01 (07:27):
Yeah, that, you know, that that was a really
nice part of the journey that Inever planned for.
Early on when I was learning, itwas very clear that I kept
getting stuck.
And I was, I knew nobody thatknew any of these skills.
And so I was just poking aroundonline, trying to find people to
help me.
I was on the forums and whatnot.
And I found this one person onthe forum, and I was asking him

(07:48):
so many questions, like, can youjust join a Slack group with me?
And he did.
And then I started to find otherpeople on the forums.
I was like, Can you come join mySlack group?
And then we just started helpingeach other.
And it just organically grewinto this beautiful thing.
And now that Slack group is like900 of the best kind of makers
in that way.
But it kind of grew into thatway.
And as I kept building things, Ijust kept sharing what I was

(08:10):
building.
And other people would ask how Ibuilt it.
And I was still learning alongthe way, but I'm happy to share
what I was doing and just got somuch joy in building, sharing,
and helping others that itcreated that really nice synergy
for me.
And I still have that today.

SPEAKER_00 (08:23):
Yeah, I think that's amazing.
And I think that's actually uh afoundational piece to software
creation, self-improvement, howwe learn and upskill that
community aspect.
Because I think no matter whatpeople are starting or trying to
create in the world, it's veryrarely like a solo mission.

(08:44):
Like you inevitably have tofigure something out.
And even if you're a puredeveloper, remember the days of
Stack Overflow?
You go there and you try tofigure out uh uh your problems
or solutions to your problems.
And I feel like with no code,you were kind of a foundational
piece in the no-code community,creating that community.
And that kind of I think led youto create like a no code

(09:05):
alliance.
Can you share a little bit morearound that?
What was the in impetus increating that and um and what
had it has become today?

SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Yeah, so so remember this was 2019, 2020.
We were early days when this waswhen you were trying to like
build everything in bubble andjust throw it at the wall, even
if it wasn't good.
It was a terrible responsiveeditor where you kind of had to
like count the pixels and it wasso early.
Uh, but I had started to figureout how to do these things, and
other people kept asking me howto do it.

(09:34):
And I was like, well, I used tobe a filmmaker, I can create a
course and just share it withpeople.
And so then uh using my newtalents, I built this uh
platform called No Code Allianceto upload my courses to for
others to do it, but to also addsome more like recognition to
the industry because it was avery early industry.
Nobody knew what like what agood no-code developer was, what

(09:55):
kind of skills they needed tolearn, where to hire them.
And so this was kind of like mysubtle nod of like maybe I could
help to like uh standardize someof these things and bring some
more kind of not regulations,but like you know, uh standards
to this industry with like hereare some certifications, here's
uh portfolios and listings andcourses uh to kind of help

(10:16):
people hopefully find moresuccess with this industry
because I really wanted it tosucceed.
And so there was like a reallyearly nod of that.
Today it's really just a placewhere I kind of keep my courses.
We do have like 3,000 memberssigned up there, no co
developers all over the worldthat have the portfolios, have
either taken one of my courses,one of my certifications, or
something like that.
So it's a small community.
I I still leverage it on theside, but uh yeah, that that

(10:39):
whole uh community and educationhas just been with me since I
think, yeah, 2020.

SPEAKER_00 (10:45):
Yeah.
And it obviously is with youtoday as kind of the community
and education lead at software.
Tell us a little bit about whatyou do there.

SPEAKER_01 (10:52):
Yeah.
So Software, we like to thinkit's the easiest to use no code
platform, uh, the Canva for appdevelopment.
And so Software, when I joinedit, it was just about two years
ago.
Uh we were at about 400,000users and it was just an
interface.
And I really wanted to be ableto make a bigger impact.
I would I taught two to threethousand people how to build,

(11:13):
and I wanted to teach likehundreds of thousands of people,
right?
And I saw software as theeasiest-to-access no-code
platform, meaning I could helpmore people because it's more
accessible.
And so when I joined them acouple of years ago, yeah, it
was small, still doing reallygood on this, on the on their
own.
Um, and over the last two years,we've grown to just about a
million builders and now ourfull stack platform offering the

(11:34):
whole suite for entry-levelbuilders looking to build an AI
app, uh, but not necessarilyneeding to access the code or
needing the very advancedpermissions that an enterprise
builder might need.
But I want to ship like a simplebusiness tool for like an HR
portal or something for mycommunity or something like
that, where I don't need tomanage the whole infrastructure.
I just need to get this tool outthat will solve a uh a problem

(11:58):
for that that I'm facing.
Uh, and software does thatreally well.

SPEAKER_00 (12:01):
That's awesome.
So I think the reason why all ofthat framing is important is
because if, you know, bringingus to today and a lot of your
experience and career has beenaround like enabling and
educating the community, we'reentering into a new era, this AI
era that people are talkingabout.
Um, and you know, one of the youhost this uh this week in No

(12:24):
Code Plus AI.
You've interviewed some of thebest founders, including the
founder of Bolt and people thatare really making nuclear in the
space.
Yes, it might be as well.
Um, but you know, I think uh onething that I would love to maybe
hear a little bit about is whendid you first become aware of
AI?
And at what point were you like,this is going to be important?

(12:46):
I need to start talking aboutthis and enabling more people to
understand the pivotal thepivotal moment we're in right
now.

SPEAKER_01 (12:55):
You know, it's funny because I think I was late.
And in the perspective ofthings, I'm I'm still pretty
early, right?
Uh and I say I think I was latebecause I think it wasn't until
like a year ago that I hadreally found AI and the
potential of it.
Uh it I think, you know, at thatpoint it was just GPT four.
So it was late.
I wasn't, you know, in the GPT-3crowd or anything like that.

(13:16):
And so it was about a year ago.
Before that, I was entirely nocode.
And then a year ago, juststarted using GPT and
everything, started using theirAPI and everything.
Uh, and then things reallystarted to click and just move
in that direction in the lastyear.
Um, and so it's funny becauseyeah, I mean, in in some ways, I
mean, people still aren't usingGPT.

(13:38):
We're very, very early adopters,right?
So, you know, we're maybe in thefirst 1%, but uh yeah, in this
last year alone, it's just beeninsane to think about.
I remember doing a podcastclipping of when NAN came out
with their agent builder.
I was like, man, this is prettycool.
And then to see where they'vegone in the last year and a half
alone has been absurd, right?

(14:00):
And so things like that, um,it's just been a really crazy
journey in the last year alone.
I I've been looking back on someof my predictions from podcast
uh articles or episodes that youknow, predated vibe coding and
whatnot, and just looking oflike what has happened in the
last year, and to think that nowthe technology is even better,

(14:22):
even more powerful, which mayallow us to accelerate even
faster than before, it's like,wow, there's a lot of amazing
stuff ahead, but there's a lotof stuff we got to figure out
too, you know, and so it's it'sentering a definitely a new
period of extreme innovation andextreme caution as well, as

(14:42):
everyone kind of figures out allright, what is next, what that
means for us, and how do we wantto leverage that for our
business?
And it's really hard because theanswer is different for
everybody.
Yeah.
And the technology that is isit's really good in certain
areas like coding, but in someother areas it's not as good.
And so maybe they're still kindof waiting for that technology

(15:04):
to reach them, but it's still alot of like translation.
What does this mean for us?

SPEAKER_00 (15:08):
So, you know, you like I mentioned, you are
talking to users and thebuilders of uh, you know, of
software in this new era.
You talk to the makers of thoseplatforms.
What are some common themes ortakeaways or just insights that
you've been able to distill inall of the conversations that

(15:29):
you're having that you might beable to share with our audience?

SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
Yeah, so there's some common themes.
Uh, you know, the entrepreneur,the maker, the MVP builder, that
crowd has always been veryvibrant and um loud and
exciting, and they continue tobe.
And I think we've seen that withthe vibe coding tools.
Uh people that have an idea thatwant to build something, you
know, they used to turn theno-code for that, uh, but

(15:53):
they're finding even moresuccess with quick wins with
vibe coding tools that allowthem to see the idea for the
first time within the first 30minutes.
Now there's some stuff to besaid about getting it to
production, etc.
But still, what that has uhignited in that population
continues to really propel a lotof these companies.
And so that maker audience um isvery loud and growing and um has

(16:17):
a lot of uh uh enthusiasm aroundit.
I think we're continuing to seea lot of innovation with
software development.
I think it's a very clear uhmedium and win.
Uh, you know, we have a ton oflibraries and everything
documented well online.
So it's a it's easier for AIs totap into.
But as we go to look towardsmore things like robotics and
doing human movements andwhatnot, I think we're we're

(16:39):
starting to find that we don'tquite have the data that we need
to really propel fast in thoseareas.
And now we're starting to see alot of other kind of companies
pop up that are literally justpaying you to fold your laundry
or to do your house chores orwhatever to capture that data
needed for these new uh AI LLMsto, you know, be implemented
into other areas outside ofsoftware development and

(17:00):
whatnot.
Uh and then we have the, youknow, this big this last year
was like, I felt like every CEOwas saying, how do we implement
AI?
How do we implement AI?
And everyone was kind of askingthat question in the boardrooms,
and there was no clear answers,but there was a lot of pay betas
and pilots.
And I think there was a lot ofhype.
And I don't think that hypenecessarily met the expectations

(17:22):
of uh C-suite in some ways, andand has since been tabled in
some situations because it'slike, well, we we tried it, we
piloted it, it didn't quite hitwhat we were thought you know,
the hype was meeting, and sowe're gonna table it for now as
we kind of figure out what'snext.
I think we have some of thatcautionary tales too.
And I think we're starting tosee that in some of the the

(17:43):
search history uh trending downin other ways, some of the big,
you know, hype for AI agentbuilders kind of trending down
in other ways.
It's kind of like normalizing asstandardizing as everyone's
like, okay, we know what AI is.
We have tried it a little bit,we're still open to experiments,
but we're not gonna shift ourentire business overnight to do
this.
But how do we, you know,implement this going forward?

(18:04):
And I think every company rightnow is figuring out a different
way to do it, depending on theirrisk thresholds.
We have some companies that arelike, hey, we built a good
10-year-old business on thisinfrastructure and we're just
gonna try to add AI on top ofit.
And then we have other companiesthat said, you know, we we've
been doing something really wellfor four or five years, but AI
just doesn't work with the waythat this needs to work.

(18:26):
It needs to be an AI first, nota X first kind of thing, and
completely change everythingthat they're doing to be AI
first.
And I think a lot of people arestruggling with what is that
balance for them and theircompany and what makes the most
sense.
Uh, and it's a hard conversationand those it's uh it's hard to
find the right answers rightnow.

SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
Yeah, I think uh the way you framed it was very good,
just kind of around like thatbalance of the adoption to risk
threshold and also kind ofreally being clear on like,
okay, well, what are thebusiness processes that I can
even use AI to true uh truly andproperly leverage?
Um, you know, in all theconversations that you've had or
kind of use cases that you'veheard, does one or two use cases

(19:09):
stick out as very impressivewhere a company or an individual
has implemented AI in a way thathas just blown you away?

SPEAKER_01 (19:19):
Um, you know, I think that the ones that have
blown me away are the mostpopular ones.
I think we're continuing to seeAI work really well in a
customer service environmentwhere they have access to lots
of documentation, they canrespond quickly in a highly
personalized way and get themanswers much faster than waiting
for a live support, but alsoqueue up that live support for
when a human is needed, it'sthere.

(19:41):
I think also virtualreceptionists or people
answering the phone and helpingyou do basic scheduling and
whatnot is also another clearwin.
We have access to that data.
We're able to do this in a goodway.
There is a lot of labor, it'sbusy work that goes into that.
We can find efficiencies andautomate that.
So I think those are clear wins.
And then, of course, softwaredevelopment.
You know, I think.
Cursors making a living on uhnot only the tab feature, but

(20:03):
their agent development.
You know, these libraries arewell documented.
It's kind of obvious what comesnext in many ways.
And so they can tap into thatand really help software
developers move a lot faster.
And so those are the three usecases that immediately come to
mind.
But we're continuing to see iteverywhere across the board.
I think every single sector isgonna be influenced by this.
I've talked to deans ofuniversities that are

(20:25):
implementing AI into theireducation, the curriculum, the
conversations they're having arelike are is the curriculum we're
building right now gonna berelevant in four years still?
Yeah.
I don't know, right?
Like how we onboard users, uh,is this still the best way or
how do we do that?
Like, there's there's aconversation to be had in almost
every different industry andaspect of business for how AI

(20:45):
can now help you improve that Ithink those are happening.
And I think that's also whywe've seen uh if I sit about a
macro standpoint for like a lotof companies not really hiring
right now, uh, because they'rekind of trying to figure out
what is next.
What are these next moves thatwe're gonna make?
What are these next big betsthat we're gonna take?
And I think there's a lot ofuncertainty right now, and it's

(21:06):
kind of like froze everybodyamong some other economic stuff,
but froze everybody of like thetechnology isn't quite there
yet.
It's very close, but it's notquite there yet.
I can't quite see, you know, theROI right here yet.
But like we're we we'reincentivizing these people
inside of our companies to thefigure it out, people, the do it
yourself, that kind of go outthere and and make it happen.

(21:27):
But we still need to make surethat they're not exposing
company data.
We're doing it in a safe way.
So they they're still in thatfirst step of we have a couple
people that are interested thatwe trust, they're kind of
scouting, they're on the frontlines, trying to figure stuff
out, report back, and thentrying to put some systems
around this for the company todo this in a safe manner.
And then maybe when they getback and they have initial good

(21:48):
results, maybe they'll start tohire and scale from there, but
still in the very early stagesof that.

SPEAKER_00 (21:53):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and definitely
seeing the same things as well.
Um, I had a question for you.
You know, you you kind of talkedabout the uh the makers and the
builders um of today.
In your opinion, like what doyou think a developer is?
Like the term developer, whatdoes that mean today?

SPEAKER_01 (22:14):
Yeah, it's changing every day, right?
Um, because people that weren'tdevelopers yesterday are now
building with real code and realapplications today.
I think that's definitelychanging.
I think uh we're kind of going alittle bit like uh how um back
in the day when you know afilmmaker really had like a big
camera and only they couldoperate that camera.
And then all of a sudden thetechnology got into the phone

(22:36):
and then everyone started makingvideos and whatnot.
And while everyone could makevideos, not every video was good
or had good editing and all thisproper, you know, distribution
and everything.
And so we're kind of in that dayof software creation where
because we have that camera inour pocket, we can take those
videos and those photos and itand they're actually quite good,
but maybe they don't, you know,go on to be as successful as

(22:57):
maybe a seasoned uh contentcreator or filmmaker could do.
Uh it's not as polished, it thedistribution isn't there, uh,
you know, all those kind ofthings that might be lacking
from that new softwaredeveloper, I think we're
starting to see as you know,this technology has become very
accessible.
So I still think that developeris someone that you know knows
uh how to set up an environment,knows the different uh um

(23:20):
security protocols, knows aboutauth and all those important
terminology that make up thecore infrastructure of the
application, like that is stuffthat you absolutely need to
know.
And even though you could tellAI to start coding, if you don't
tell them that if you don't knowwhere to look, sometimes you
don't know it's not there orit's broken or how to fix it.
And so right now it's it's lessabout do you know the syntax and

(23:41):
everything of being a developer?
It's more about do you know theinfrastructure?
Do you know the strategy?
Do you know how all this worksand comes together?
And do you know what questionsto ask?
If you do, you can get really,really far.
I am personally not atraditional developer.
I don't know how to code nearlyanything, but I have built four
applications in the last twomonths fully with code using AI

(24:03):
to help me, uh, to the point nowwhere if I come across a problem
in a couple hours, I can build apersonal software to solve that
problem on the side for me thatI don't even distribute to
anyone else.
I just keep it for me.
And it's really, really excitingthat we're there and still have
a long way to go, too.

SPEAKER_00 (24:20):
That's awesome.
So I want to like expand onsomething.
So there's a couple thingsthere.
So the first is I think what I'mhearing, and this is also what
uh we believe as well, like ifyou do not understand it, then
you don't own it.
And if you don't own it, thenit's it's hard to really, again,
ship and make somethingmeaningful, make a business out
of it.
And I think that AI has reallywidened the aperture in terms of

(24:44):
the amount of builders that cancome into the scene and to start
creating, which I think isamazing.
Like we need more, uh, moresoftware in the world.
Um, but there is, there arelevels, right?
There's a gradient to anything.
And like you said, thatunderstanding of what is
happening from an infrastructurestandpoint, from a security
standpoint, is critical.
That being said, I think thatanother piece that I want to uh

(25:07):
pick up on is, you know, thefact that you're a builder, even
though you are not a softwareengineer.
Um to be someone that isenabling and creating in this
space, you have to be native.
You have to be experimenting,you have to be building for
yourself.
So I wonder if you could share,you know, you said you had a
couple projects, maybe one ofthe things that you've built to

(25:30):
help you, and then talk a littlebit about the journey as well.
Because I think a lot of peoplethat may want to experiment
don't necessarily know what tobegin.
And you might inspire them uharound based on kind of what
you've been able to create.

SPEAKER_01 (25:43):
Sure.
So my experience building withcode started the same way that
my experience building with nocode started, which was I'm not
smart enough, I can't do this.
That uh initial self-doubt oflike, yeah, I'm really good with
no code, I know how to build,but like I'm not good enough for
code.
I felt that for a while.
And for some, and that was whatled me to not trying it earlier,

(26:04):
right?
And as soon as I tried it, uh,and in this case, I was uh using
an AI coding IDE to help me withmy vision.
I knew the structure, I kneweverything, and I had a very
clear problem to solve.
And that's the big part isknowing to get very specific
about what you're trying to do.
And so uh on the side, I've beenbuilding this application called
My Insider Pass.

(26:25):
It allows you to send pushnotifications without the need
for a mobile application.
So you can spin up a mobilepass, they add that to the
mobile wallets, and then we cansend them push notifications.
And for that technology, Ineeded to integrate with the iOS
and Android SDKs to access thewall of technology.
And so I was like, I need towork with those SDKs using code

(26:45):
in a very specific way.
And I knew exactly what I neededto do, but I had never coded
before.
And so I went to my AI IDE and Iwas like, this is what we need
to do.
Let's create a plan and let'swork at it.
And by the end of the weekend, Ihad a prototype locally that I
was able to test, and that wasthe addiction point, you know,
and that just got me going.
And then all of a sudden I feltthe confidence start to come

(27:06):
back and I started to, you know,of course there's dips in in and
um as everything when you'relearning, but once that
confidence kicks in, that's whenyou really get powerful as like
a learner and a builder.
Yeah.
But there's a lot of self-doubtthat comes before that that you
need to get past.
And my biggest suggestion to youis just to try it and to

(27:27):
constantly be curious, right?
There's a lot of people that, meincluded, that doubt ourselves
that we can even do it.
So we don't even get there.
But you don't know if you can'tdo it unless you try, right?
And so be curious about thesethings.
And so one of the things I loveabout my podcast is I get to
listen to the latest leadersthat are building the latest
products, yourself included,each week, and share and get to

(27:49):
hear how they're buildingthings, but the technology that
they're building that gives mekind of insight into, oh, this
stuff is possible now.
Oh, I didn't even know we coulddo that.
And then it helps me figure out,okay, if I'm gonna do this, that
I was showing how to do it thisway.
So I'm gonna go this way.
And it's just with theaccessibility that we have to
YouTube and everything elsethese days, there's a million

(28:09):
videos out there that arewilling to help you get started.
It's just having that mindset ofbeing a learner again.
I think so many of us for solong didn't need to learn.
You know, like if you thinkabout your career, you've been
in 10, 15 years, you're kind ofyou're learning, but like not at
the level that you need to learnright now.
AI has kind of forced our handto be learners again in the best
way because it's really changinghow we operate in every capacity

(28:33):
of business, automation,efficiency, communication,
everything.
And so if you leverage it nowand learn how to leverage it,
it's a skill that you'rebuilding for a future.
And it's an it's an inevitableand very valuable skill that you
need.
Just like it is to be able toknow your way around the
internet and be able to use yourSlack and all your teams and all
that kind of stuff.
That AI is gonna be that in thenear future of you need to be

(28:55):
able to use these tools and youneed to be able to use these
systems to find more success.
And so um, I'm just trying toenable as much confidence as I
can out there to let otherpeople know like you can do
this.
It's just a matter of yousitting down, taking the time,
being curious, trying it out,keep at it, holding your head up
high, and we'll make friendsalong the way and we can keep

(29:16):
each other encouraged.

SPEAKER_00 (29:17):
That is awesome.
Well, like what uh greatfeedback and words of
encouragement to people that umyeah, might have some kind of
anxiety around like, hey, is isthis possible?
Like, oh yeah, those that thenews that I'm hearing, that's
not for me to do.
I think it is critical thatevery individual, even your, you
know, our audience is technicalbuilders and application

(29:40):
development leaders, especiallyfor the application development
leader crowd.
You know, the the definition ofa CIO is changing.
Like you're not a GartnerLemming anymore that's just
choosing the top right quadrant.
You need to be a builderyourself.
And then you can help evaluateand make the best decision for
your organizations and whetheryou're an individual startup as

(30:01):
well.
Like you all you have to be kindof native in the space and it
comes with that confidence.

SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
Can I add one more point to that?
Please do.
So, on the complete oppositeside of the spectrum, the first
side is self-doubt.
I don't think I could do it.
And then the other side of thespectrum is I've been doing this
for 20 years.
There's no way that this newtechnology can do this, and I'm
just gonna ignore it becausethis is the right way.
That's also not the right thing.
You need to be curious, you needto experiment, you need to see

(30:27):
what's available.
You can make whatever choice youwould make after you see that,
but you have to stay agile tothese new technologies because
they're incredible.
And if you just brush them offbecause you're a seasoned
engineer in the last 20 years,you're not gonna find success in
that way either.
You're gonna be legacied out ina way, you know?
And so it's it's up to you toalso stay curious, stay put that

(30:48):
learning hat back on, eventhough you're top your craft in
one way.
There are new ways to do things,and there's young, eager people
trying these latest tools,finding a lot of success.
And yes, they might not do itevery way that you're doing it
or the best ways, but there's alot of promise and new
opportunities too that youshould look at to see if it
could benefit you.

SPEAKER_00 (31:07):
Totally.
Um, I want to take a moment totalk about like literacy and
leveraging AI as a tool uh tolearn, because you know, kind of
very poignant in what you justsaid was um that being curious
and that hunger to learn.
And the beautiful thing about AIis that I mean, I'm speaking for

(31:30):
myself, I can be like, hey, Idon't understand this concept.
You know, I need you to break itdown for me like I'm eight years
old.
And I I don't feel embarrassedabout doing that with the AI.
But when you understand it atthat level, it gives you the
ownership of what you'recreating.
So if, for example, when youwere creating the push

(31:50):
notification app, maybe likeyou're using SDKs and maybe you
didn't understand what an SDKwas.
And you're like, okay, well,like explain to me what this SDK
is.
What is an SDK?
How does this actually loop intoeverything?
So then you can learn toco-create with the AI better.
Because the more you understandit, the more it can like help

(32:11):
you create better.
Would you kind of agree withthat?

SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
100%.
I I it's in my pocket all thetime.
I am constantly taking picturesof something out in the wild.
It's like, what is this?
Explain this to me.
And when I was trying to learnmore about the develop
ecosystem, I was just like, Iknow what all these tools are,
but I don't really know how theyconnect together.
Help me fill in this picture oflike how this ecosystem works,
how these all connect together.
What's the importance of it?

(32:36):
And just I just was askingquestions for like an hour to
AI, and it was just helping meout.
It's just like, now I get it.
Now I'm ready to start learningmore on this subject on YouTube
videos and whatnot because AIhelped me fill in those gaps,
right?
And like another thing is uh myfamily and I, we've been uh
repairing an old boat over thesummer.
And so the motor had issues, andI know nothing about any of this

(32:57):
stuff.
But I was just taking picturesof the motor with ChatGPT, and I
was like, here's what's goingon, X, Y, and Z.
And it helped troubleshoot thiswhole thing.
And now I'm very familiar withthat motor.
And we went through everythingand and we didn't quite solve
it, but we got so close and itwas very relevant, and it gave
me confidence that I had neverhad before with this new tool in

(33:17):
my pocket that is just so easyto use, and everybody should be
using it to get more knowledge,more, you know, and answer those
questions.
It's just, it's just never beena better time.
It is so great.

SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
On the other side of that, I do want to recognize
that a lot of people, I've saidthis in a couple of the
conversations uh that I've seenare are they they're kind of
sacrificing um speed or sorry,skill development for speed,
meaning that AI is so good.
And you know, of course, you theone thing that we just talked

(33:50):
about is you can learn alongsideof it, but you can also just
have it do things for you.
And um, you don't get to developthe muscle of what it means to
like think through things, thinkthrough problems.
And I also think that that'sdangerous.
And it's just funny.
Uh maybe Miriam and Archer willbe watching this.
There was this moment where Iwas literally using AI for

(34:11):
everything, even if I knew likehow to structure emails, et
cetera, I'd just be like, okay,make this better, make
everything that I'm doingbetter.
And I remember like copying andpasting to Miriam and Archer,
like just a hello message.
And it included the here's amore polished version in your.

(35:03):
So that's that's an anotherpiece that I think is important
to recognize.
And I'm wondering for you, foryour audience, for what you've
seen in terms of people likethat are upskilling or
leveraging the AI, what have youwitnessed and seen?

SPEAKER_01 (35:16):
Yeah, and I and I I do a lot of this and I'm
figuring it out myself, and I'mteaching a lot of it too.
You know, we all have seen theAI writing on LinkedIn, right?
Um, and and I there I still useAI to help me with my writing a
lot, but there was also realvalue in not using it to or
using it in ways that make surethat your voice and your

(35:37):
integrity is still there andthat you're not just outsourcing
your opinions, which no onewants to see, by the way.
No one wants to see your AIoutsource opinions.
They want to see your opinions,right?
And so finding that balance andkeeping the intent of being
authentic and um transparent andjust uh yeah, I think authentic
is the real word I'm lookingsearching for here.

(35:59):
Find ways to use it, but keepyour authentic in intact.
I explained, I think I sharedthis example with you as well,
but I've been really big intobuilding agents over the last
year.
And so I had built an agent tohelp me with my communications
for my podcast scheduling, etcetera.
And the agent would follow upand email the guests coming on
and kind of take care of allthat for me.
And it was working to the pointwhere it was literally like

(36:21):
working, emailing back andforth, and it was fine.
But for me, podcast is aboutbuilding relationships, it's
about meeting these guests thatare coming on and building
relationships with them.
And that can only happen if I'ma part of that, right?
And I was like, why am I lettingAI take me out of this picture
that it's the most valuable partof it for me?
I need to be back into this.
And so that's where the intentof AI comes in of like, what is

(36:43):
your intent here?
And let's have AI assist you,but not replace you.
And to make sure that you'rekeeping that really top of mind
in everything you do as AIbecomes very prevalent in every
aspect of life.

SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Totally.
Um, I want to shift gears alittle bit and talk a little bit
about how you see the futureplaying out in terms of how
people are going to usesoftware, what the front end
looks like, what behavior lookslike in the world of AI.
I know none of us can reallytell, but you have a lot of
conversations with the buildersof tomorrow.

(37:17):
Um, based on what you'rehearing, based on what you're
seeing, how do you see thatunfolding?

SPEAKER_01 (37:22):
So I got a lot of thoughts here.
I'll try to make it in a clear,coherent message, but there are
a lot of different things.
I think on the software side,uh, you know, we're already
starting to see websites thatautomatically build themselves
based on the visitor that isappearing or visiting that web
page.
I think that kind of dynamicbehavior, I think, you know,
we're gonna start to get a lotmore information from cookies uh

(37:44):
about you know where they'vebeen visited, et cetera.
And we can start to build a lotmore things dynamically on the
fly for that user to really, youknow, drive home that that
conversion cycle.
So I think we're gonna see a lotmore dynamic things created for
users on the internet and a lotmore personalized experiences.
I mean this with also like, youknow, instead of just Google
search results, it's Googleresponding, AI responding to you

(38:04):
in a very personalized way,knowing exactly what you want
with the information you need.
And so personalization is gonnacontinue to be a very important
part.
I think also we're in uh ourarea of AI where multimodality.
And in right now, we're just inchat.
We're just in text, right?
But we're soon gonna take a nextbig leap.
We kind of already done it withvoice, but with vision and with

(38:26):
hearing that we're gonna startto see in many, many aspects of
the product.
I think one example of this isyou're gonna start to have uh
real like AI counterpartsjoining meetings with you and
giving real-time suggestions toyou or real-time data fetching
for you, assisting you in themeeting of as if, say, someone
brought up, you know, what werethe figures for this last
campaign?

(38:46):
It's gonna fetch it for youautomatically in the background
and give it to you to mention inthe next sentence you speak.
That kind of real-timeinteraction.
And then that's gonna continueto play out in life and
multimodality with, you know,the Ray Band glasses and all
this other AIR stuff that'scoming to life.
I think we're gonna start toexperience LLMs in different
multimodalities in the next fiveyears, 10 years, that's really

(39:08):
gonna take a huge leap forward.
Right now we're still in thatlike that text leap.
And but with the new modalities,we're gonna big uh a big leap.
You know, and then we're stillgonna get, you know, the the
self-driving cars.
Like we're very close to there.
This is Waymo and Tesla, like inthe next 10 years, are we gonna
be driving our kids to soccerpractice?
I don't know.

(39:28):
You know, I think that's gonnabe your preference at that
point.
Are you still gonna have a gasvehicle or an EV vehicle?
That's what you could do today.
Both are fine, both work.
And I think in the future, it'sgonna be do you have a
self-driving or a manual drivingcar?
That's gonna be your preference.
Either one could work and coulddo your preference.
And so we have a lot of bigdecisions coming.
And I think there's a lot of umthings that are gonna be moving

(39:51):
too fast for humanity where thetechnology is gonna be there,
but the humans just don't wantthat yet.
Or the adoption for that isgonna be slower because of risks
and other certain things.
Or perceptions of that.
And so there, you know, we're, Ithink, you know, AI is similar
to the inventation ofelectricity or the internet.
And with each of those, youknow, invent and innovations
came huge shifts around every uhthe way we use everything.

(40:14):
And AI is just getting startedthere.
And so it has never been a greatbetter time to be a maker.
It has never been a better timeto be a builder, to think about,
you know, where we're going inthe future and to leverage the
technology to really buildsomething.
Uh that it's more accessiblethan ever before.
The technology is better thanever before.
Um, and you can do it, quitefrankly.

(40:35):
It's just you figuring out, youknow, what is that plan?
What does that look like for me?
Where does my value lie?
Where, what, where is my desirebringing me?
Finding something that is awin-win for you.
You know, I think if the morethe more synergy you can create
in life around your desires,what you want to do, the value
that you can add, find a way toget that flywheel going.

(40:56):
Uh, and there's a milliondifferent ways to do that right
now.
And I think you'll find uh, youknow, real big success doing
something you love in that way.

SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
That's awesome.
Um, I mean, around that, I wouldbe curious as to what your
personal vision is in terms ofkind of educating and empowering
the next generation ofdevelopers.
Because in some ways, you'vebeen doing this right since I've
known you with No Code Alliance,uh, the tutorials that you put

(41:24):
out, like the one-off stuff.
Like we've even done some videostogether, just educating the
community on how they should bethinking about things as they're
building.
Do you have a vision around whatis next?
Like, what do the next three tofive years look like for JJ?

SPEAKER_01 (41:39):
Yeah, I, you know, I I just I still want to be that
person.
I want to be that builder.
I want to be the uh a personthat can inspire others to
build, and I want to be theperson that can help others
build.
Uh, I I love those three things.
It starts with building, though,and being a really good builder,
and which is what I love to do.
And then by being a really goodbuilder, I'm a lot I'm able to
share my knowledge and my mylove, my motivation, my

(42:02):
inspiration with others aroundthis.
And so I'm lucky to say thatlike I'm just I'm still just as
enthralled with the technologyas I was five years ago as I am
today.
The technology has changed alittle bit, but the ability to
create has never been better andthe magic to create has never
been more.
And so uh I'm on the samemission, luckily.
I still really value that and Ireally love that.

(42:24):
Uh, I think the mediums havechanged a little bit, uh, but
it's it's just never been abetter time, I think, to build
stuff and to teach others tobuild it.
Whether it's MVPs or tools orproductivity stuff for your own
stuff, I think that thatdiffers.
And I think that depends.
But generally, I just want togive people the confidence and
the skills to go off and do itbecause I know what those have

(42:44):
given me, and that makes me sohappy.
And I hope I can give that toother people as well.

SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
Awesome.
So, just as we wrap up, somemore rapid fire uh questions.
Um, but the first would be kindof what's in your toolbox?
And this can be AI-related toolsor not that you are using today
that you're excited about andyou want to share with the uh
with the audience.

SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
Yeah, so I'm a big cursor lover.
I really love cursor.
It's it's been my technicalco-partner uh for a while now.
And then, of course, I have mysoftware toolbox.
Our recent AI agents anddatabases have been really
great.
Uh, we just launched ourworkflows builders and then our
interface builder, and I'm inthere daily.
Uh, I still use bubble for likethe MVPs I do on the side, uh,

(43:27):
that I need like customdevelopment, but I want to be
able to do pixel perfect and Icontrol at everything.
I still use that heavily.
Um, I'm using a ton of differentAPIs.
I really love Claude's Heroku4.5.
It's really fast and reallysmart, and I've been using that
in a lot of my systems.
Um, and so with kind of thisstack, I'm able to build nearly

(43:49):
anything I want and in recordtime, and it's been really,
really impactful for me.
And so um, yeah, I I don't,yeah, it's it's never been a
better time to be a builder,honestly.

SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
I love it.
Um tell me a little bit about umin the next let's say five
years, what is a bold predictionthat you hold that might be
counter to like what otherpeople are saying, just about
where we're going to be as asociety in a world with AI.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:21):
I think uh it's it's maybe not as bold, um, but I
think um we're in the very earlystages of adoption.
I think in five years from now,we're still gonna be in
adoption.
I think we'll be in laterphases, but still a long way to
go.
I think everybody thinks thatbecause the technology is here,
it's just gonna be adopted andthen we're gonna be in a whole
new phase.
But I think what we've seenalready is the technology's been

(44:44):
here and adoption has been veryslow and will continue to be
slow.
There's a big population ofhumanity that needs to first get
access to this, and then second,learn how to use it, and then
third, apply it to theirbusiness.
And and that's just not gonnahappen overnight.
And so I think over the nextfive years, we're gonna continue
to adopt it, but we'll soon getto get to a point where AI is

(45:05):
just like the internet, likeeverybody needs it, everyone has
it, interacts with it everysingle day, has a ton of
different ways to use it andfinds their own sense of life in
there.
I also think that, you know, VRis gonna be really big.
And I know it hasn't hit itsstride yet, but I think we're
we're closely getting to a pointwhere VR and AR are gonna be
able to spin up different worldsthat people are gonna be able to

(45:28):
live in.
And I think with AI being ableto take over eventually in the
long run, a lot of skills andlabors and basic entry levels
things, there's gonna be somedecisions that we need to make
as humanity of like, you know,how are people still getting
jobs and all this kind of stuff?
And I think that's gonna lead toa lot of people experiencing
worlds digitally in some kind ofVR AR capacity that, you know,

(45:52):
just we haven't seen yet before.

SPEAKER_00 (45:54):
Yeah.
Um, I guess the final questionis, you know, we spoke earlier
about the importance of justbuilding, right?
Having getting the confidence tojust start trying things out.
So let's say a builder uh comesover to you and says, okay,
you've convinced me I want toget started.
What recommendation would youhave around what they should

(46:17):
start experimenting with orbuilding?
And uh yeah, just where do theybegin?
Sure.

SPEAKER_01 (46:23):
It's a good question.
I think it differs foreverybody.
But the way that I would beginis, all right, what do you want
to build?
And let's put that in the ChatGPT and just have a conversation
with it over like, this is whatI want to build, these are the
problems I want to solve.
And then at the end of it, say,or even in the beginning, of
like, I've never done thisbefore.
Maybe help put out together aplan and outline for someone
that is learning this for thefirst time, put together like

(46:44):
maybe a learning path for me andthen an execution path.
And just really start to useChat GPT as like your partner in
that way where you can kind ofwork through these things
together.
And at any step of the process,if you have questions or you
come across errors, bring thatback into ChatGPT and that
shared project that you create,that shared context to help you
through these steps.
I think that will help you justfigure out, like, all right,

(47:06):
what's the outline?
What's the plan?
From here, these are the some ofthe things I need to learn.
Then I go on YouTube and I startlearning those, right?
And then one, once I start tofeel like, all right, I got a
plan, I've done some basicknowledge.
Then I would spin up an AIcoding tool like a Claude
Anthropic and a cursor and seewhat it could do for me, or even
a vibe coding tool uh to seewhat it could do for me to start

(47:26):
bringing this together and juststart experimenting.
Don't this is about doingsomething small and doing and
completing it, right?
Uh so don't go so big where it'slike I want to do X, Y, and Z on
your first one.
Just do something like I justwant to create a to-do list app,
right?
Something very simple that Icould just see live for the
first time.
Help me work through that,right?

(47:46):
And just start to get your feetunder you of the this
terminology.
There's a lot of terminology youneed to learn.
But once you learn theterminology, then you've learned
it and then you can communicateto AI to use it in that way.
And so it's just about gettingyour reps in.
It's about flexing those musclesof a builder, being curious,
asking those questions, uh, andbeing willing to like, hey, I've
been hit with this error.

(48:06):
It's okay.
I can work with AI, we'll figureit out, and then we'll go on to
the next one because there'salways gonna be an error in
coding, in life, or whatever,that's normal.
But it's how you respond to thaterror and how you get past it
and how you grow from it that'sgonna establish who you are.
And so uh, you know, you havethese tools available.
Once you hit those points,that's okay.

(48:27):
Take a breath, work with thesetools, and then we'll take the
next step, we'll get past it,and we'll keep going up.

SPEAKER_00 (48:32):
I love it.
Life lessons through codingmetaphors and AI.
Um, JJ, this has been a greatconversation.
Where can people follow you orsubscribe to to learn more and
hear more, JJ?

SPEAKER_01 (48:44):
Yeah, thank you.
I appreciate that.
Um, I have a weekly podcast.
It's called This Week in No CodePlus AI.
I put all my latest learningsthere.
I I interview the best people inthe world uh there each week.
Uh, so that's a very activeplace.
Also, LinkedIn is more popularnow for me than X.
I never thought I'd say that,but LinkedIn for JJ Angler,
that's where I am most days.
Uh, and then I have my ownYouTube channel where I do uh AI

(49:06):
tutorials uh on uh and JJ Angleron YouTube as well.
So find me on one of those threeplatforms uh and just always
feel free to reach out.
Uh, send me a message, anything.
I'm I'm again looking to makefriends.
I'm looking to share myknowledge and add value as I can
along the way.
Uh so let me know if I could beof assistance.

SPEAKER_00 (49:23):
Awesome.
Well, JJ, really appreciate umyou, everything that you've done
for the community, andeverything that you will
continue to do as well.
So thank you so much, my friend.

SPEAKER_01 (49:31):
Thank you for having me here.
It's a pleasure to share thestage with you again.
Again, I really love what youguys are doing over at Zeno.
Uh, I love the latest update youdid as well.
The direction is clear.
I can't wait to see you guyscontinue to execute on it and
find even more success.
Appreciate it, buddy.

All Episodes

The New Builder Mindset — JJ Englert, NoCode Alliance

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Burden

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The New Builder Mindset — JJ Englert, NoCode Alliance