March 7, 2024 • 34 mins
Watch this episode on YouTube:
https://youtu.be/AkEvK8AT3uI
I sit down with Sepp Haukebo and explore one of North America's only Native Caffeinated plants that can be found right here on Galveston Island. Yaupon Holly has been used as a stimulant for thousands of years in North America and Yaupon is making a comeback in the world of caffeinated beverages and products.
Information on Yaupon Holly: https://plants.usda.gov/DocumentLibrary/factsheet/pdf/fs_ilvo.pdf
Foraging Texas: https://www.foragingtexas.com/2008/08/yaupon-holly.html?m=1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, when you learn a little bit more about
the conspiracy to Then like this, maybe this is what will
convert people back to Yopon andreplace coffee.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Galveston unscripted.
In this episode today I sit downwith sep hokobo, a scientist
who has worked on fisheries andecology projects around the
United States and the Caribbean.
In this episode, seponite sitdown and discuss Yopon Holly,
one of the United States onlynative caffeinated plants that
could be found right here onGalveston Island.
Now, for some context, seponitemet for coffee and tea a few
(00:35):
weeks ago and we sat down andstarted discussing Yopon Holly
and sep, as a Yopon harvesterand tea drinker, started to
describe to me some of theconspiracy behind Yopon, and I
found it fascinating and I beganwondering how I could tie Yopon
back to the history ofGalveston Island.
Well, as luck would have it,sep let me borrow a book and of
(00:56):
course he dog-eared a few pagesthat specifically discussed
Galveston and the Texas area.
Alvar Nunez Cabez de vacashipwrecked along the Texas
coast in 1528, possibly onGalveston Island, and some of
the first written accounts ofYopon being drank by the natives
in this area was from AlvarNunez Cabez de vaca in his
(01:17):
writings later on in his life.
And of course that ties thehistory of Yopon being drank by
the natives in this area Back toTexas history.
So I invited sep to join me inthe studio to discuss a little
bit of the history on YoponHolly and how it can be
harvested here on GalvestonIsland safely and responsibly.
Of course, I've linked a fewresources in the description of
(01:38):
this episode on how to safelyidentify and and harvest Yopon
for yourself, or you could evenjust purchase it from some of
the vendors that are selling itin our area.
Either way, this is anabsolutely fascinating
discussion on Yopon here inGalveston and across the
southeast of the United States.
Without further ado, let's hopright into this episode
Discussing a little bit of thehistory behind Yopon with sep
(02:01):
hokubo.
Welcome to Galveston.
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
But yeah, it looks great in here and the pictures
set a good tone.
I didn't know you werephotographer.
These are great.
Well amateur, heavy amateurstill counts.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
But the the night ones actually.
So that one over there and thatone the bottom one over there.
I Started like late last year Istarted going live on tiktok
Okay, out of there's, justrandomly.
I saw like live was getting bigon tiktok.
I was like I'm gonna go live,walk around Galveston at night
and Take night photography shots.
So a lot of these were like inthe downtown area and then my
(02:37):
neighborhood so I just walkaround, cool, and it was so
crazy to see like 1200 peoplefrom around the country Watching
a live tiktok of me walkingaround Galveston you know it's
so crazy, but then I would poston my Instagram and it would
actually drive traffic to myInstagram.
I was like, oh, I see, this isgreat, so you're capturing an
audience and able to bring themover to a different platform.
So, that's kind of what I did.
(02:58):
And then, whenever we put thesound panels up which are sound
panels back here, by the wayokay, I printed out the these
photos and like, all right,we're gonna put these over those
.
So I want to kind of cover itup a little bit cool.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, man, very cool.
Have you had any like highschool students in here,
anything like like the ball high?
No just the space is likeinspirational.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Thanks, yeah, I like seeing this would be like, all
right, I could do this, you know.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, that means a lot man.
Yeah, means a lot, it reallydoes, because, I mean, this has
been like a a dream come true,honestly.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I love.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I get to talk about my hometown and kind of make
Make something out of a smallplace.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, about a small thing.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, you know and really dive deep into it.
So yeah, man very cool.
Well, seth, thanks for comingin today, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, I'm excited about that, yeah for sure, man.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, if you want, you can get more comfortable,
and yeah, you know.
Whatever, you can lean back alittle bit if you want to.
But, um, first, I, I, you havethe most interesting name I have
ever heard.
I can never say your last name,by the way.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
That's all right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Hacobo, hacobo.
Yeah, and it's sep.
Yep, I've never met another sepin my life.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, I've only known of one other one.
Oh really yeah, friend of my,my family back from Germany.
So sep is German for Joseph.
Oh really, okay, dad.
His dad served in the militaryafter World War two.
My dad was born over there.
His name was Joseph, and sowhen I came around they said
(04:26):
we're gonna name him sep.
So Geo sep.
He's like the Italian version,and then Hacobo is Norwegian.
That's more like familyancestry there.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Gotcha yeah, sweet man yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, when I was a kid, I mean I hated it.
You know you're like ah, thisis brutal.
None of my teachers canpronounce anything.
I got the weird name in classand then eventually you know,
you grow into it and youappreciate the weirdness.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah Well, I'll never forget,
like when I went to AnemGalveston, you were one of the
scholarship advisors and Everytime your email would come
across.
I don't know, I cannot say.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hibuko we'd be like.
As a group We'd like is itHibuko?
I don't know, we can't say it,we can't read.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Of course we're at am my cousin, when he was real
little teacher, was kind ofstumbling and he was in first
grade and she said what is yourlast name?
And he said sound it out.
That's what teachers are alllike telling the kids, right?
So she said haka, bow.
He said good job, that'sperfect yeah.
Yeah, it looks scary, but onceyou get into it it ain't bad.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, before we get into the topic of conversation
today, which is Yopon, yopon.
I can never really pronouncethat either you got it Just like
your last name.
Could you tell us a little bitabout your background?
Yeah where you come from andhow you got to the point you're
in now.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, great question.
So I grew up in northern NewMexico Just with the love for
the outdoors.
You know we were ice fishing, wewere skiing cross-country
skiing, hiking, fishing, youname it but I always loved the
ocean.
Anytime we traveled, we'd tryand you know, just backpack and
my family was Trying to dothings on a budget.
(06:01):
We'd go to a little town inMexico and I said, you know,
this is what I want to, this iswhat I want to do when I grow up
.
I want to be near the ocean, Iwant to study the ocean.
So I found out from some highschool teachers that Texas A&M
has a branch in Galveston TexasA&M Galveston.
That's world-renowned formarine biology, oceanography,
(06:21):
marine fisheries, so naturallymade the hop down here.
I didn't even look at eastcoast or west coast, it didn't
really matter, because there wasa great place right here in the
Gulf.
So I went through my undergradand masters there, had a lot of
really fun, you know, summerjobs, internship opportunities
(06:44):
and then my degree took me toWashington DC to work on the
science and policy kind ofinterface and then eventually
made it back to the Gulf and nowwork on conservation in the
Gulf of Mexico and Caribbeanbasin, especially on the marine
fishery side.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Awesome man, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, it's been a journey.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, so you're actually doing something with
your degree.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, like they say, you know, it's a license to
drive right, like it you provethat you can finish things, and
there's a lot of stuff I do notremember.
I mean just doing research forthis podcast, I had to go back
through some of the history ontaxonomy and scientific names
and you're like, wow, you know.
flashback 20 years ago whenyou're learning about this in
(07:30):
class you're thinking, oh,scientific names are so boring.
But then you start to learn howinteresting they are as you get
a little bit older and likewe'll get into in a little bit
the conspiracy that can comewith some of that scientific
naming.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And that's fascinating For some context of
about a month and a half agomaybe.
We sat down, had some coffeeand you gave me this book Black
Drink and you dog-eared a fewpages in here that specifically
talk about the Galveston area inTexas.
But going through this book youstart learning about this plant
(08:03):
that grows native in this areain the southeastern United
States and Texas and that is theonly naturally or only
caffeinated plant in NorthAmerica.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Native to North America, native North America?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And evidently you know you were mentioning to me
that there was a conspiracybehind why it's named what it is
today.
The scientific name is what itis today.
So I'm yeah, I want to get intothat and like talk about some
of the benefits behind thisthing and how it's kind of
making a resurgence now.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, today we'll be talking alittle bit about Yopon, or Yopon
Holly as a lot of folks know it.
Ilex Vomitoria is thescientific name, and I got to
make a note right up front.
I am, you know, I'm not abotanist.
I also am not a nutritionistand I can't tell you, you know,
(08:54):
this is what looks good.
Go ahead and brew it or eat it.
But Yopon itself is the Yoponberries are toxic, but the
leaves you can make a terrifictea out of it and they are not
emetic or the scientific wordfor makes you vomit.
But as you can tell, there is,you know, in that scientific
(09:15):
name, ilex Vomitoria.
There's some history there.
So I figured maybe I'd startoff with some fun facts.
Yeah, let's do it we can get tothe really interesting part,
yeah let's do it for sure theconspiracy behind the scientific
name.
Yeah, like you said, this is oneof North America's most
caffeinated native plants.
Depending on how you brew it,it's a little bit less
(09:36):
caffeinated than coffee, so it'ssimilar to like Yerba mate
which is having its moment rightnow as well.
Yerba mate is known as IlexParaguariensis, so it's a cousin
.
Yopon actually means littletree in.
I had to look this up, but it'sa Katowban language, which are
natives based around theAppalachian plateau.
(09:59):
Okay okay, but like the Cherokeepeoples called it their beloved
tree.
When Spanish colonials werevisiting Florida they called it
Te de Indio, the Indian tea.
It was also really commonlyknown as Casina and for a while
(10:20):
in England it was called SouthCT.
South CT Kind of a rebrandingright, which would be kind of a
cool like Gulf of Mexico brand.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, it really would be South CT.
I like that yeah good ring.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
And then for a little while it even had a moment in
Paris and it was calledAppalachian in Parisian cafe.
So all good names, right?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, how foreign and exotic.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, right, and the funny thing is, once you
identify it and you startlooking around, you may even see
it in your backyard.
You'll see it all overGalveston.
You'll see it all over Centraland Southeast Texas.
It grows from the Carolinasdown to Florida and then from
Florida all the way to CentralTexas.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And you'll just be blown away that there, here's
this incredible tea that'sgrowing right in front of you,
and I talked to some folks thatgrowing up maybe they were in
Boy Scouts or whatever it wasthey were always told by their
parents that is toxic that willmake you vomit the berries, of
course, but everybody alsothought the teas were dangerous.
(11:24):
So, yeah, there's a lot ofhistory there.
One of the things that made itsuch a great tea is that it
doesn't have tannins, andtannins are what make tea a
little bit bitter.
Yeah, so I've actually, whenI've been brewing it, I'll leave
it and forget about it.
20 minutes later I'll come back.
That would ruin any other kindof green or black tea and it's
(11:47):
still just as good.
It also has a really greatflavor when you make iced tea
out of it.
That's actually my favorite way.
It has like a little bit of aCola flavor.
So like your traditionalsouthern black iced tea with a
little bit of cola added in it.
Like that cola flavor just isincredible.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I think my mouth is watering now.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, and we brought some for you to try today too.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Dude, I'm excited.
I can't wait to try it, yeahabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Another fun fact it's packed with theobromine, which
is a stimulant that's naturallyfound in chocolate.
So think about that buzz youkind of get, yeah, having a, you
know, a nice dark chocolate bar.
Theobromine is also a slightaphrodisiac, so don't drink too
much of this in the morning, youknow, wait till the evenings.
It's a mood booster and itboosts energy levels, yeah, so
(12:41):
you can really see why it wasrevered by so many of the native
cultures around the NorthAmerica.
Yeah, yeah, a couple ways toprepare it.
Green is really good.
You can kind of dry it and thenjust make a green tea, but also
I love to pick some, you know,sustainably around here on the
island, roast it at about 400degrees in the oven for like
(13:04):
eight minutes.
Your whole house will juststart to smell incredible.
Oh wow, you go too long, though,and it will char and you'll get
you know, the wife will betelling you what are you?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, what are you burning in here?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But it's kind of like coffee.
You could do a light roast adark roast.
That changes the flavor, thatchanges, you know, the level of
caffeine.
So it's really fun to playaround with and it's not like
you're having to source coffeebeans from you know another
country and potentially have topay for all that.
It's just a really fun thing toexperiment with.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's crazy.
You can literally grow it inyour backyard.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, and you know, if you're going to forage it, I
would encourage folks to checkout.
There's a great website calledForaging Texas.
That guy actually does clinicskind of or workshops all over
the state and this is one of thefirst places I learned about it
.
But he'll tell you.
You know, like don't don'tforage on the side of a highway.
You've got all sorts ofpollutants in the air.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Oh, you know you don't want to trespass.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You want to try and harvest from areas where you
know there hasn't been like aspill or a toxic dump.
You always want to be careful.
You know, know the rules andregulations if you're in a city
park or a state park or anational park, but other than
that, I mean you will see iteverywhere, yeah, and there's
also some commercially availableproducts around Texas too, and
(14:23):
the opon is a pretty robustplant, right.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I mean it'll survive in this area naturally, natively
, through thick and thin,basically yeah absolutely so it
will grow on the side of ahighway or like in an area where
there have been pollutants.
Yeah, yeah, you'll find italmost everywhere.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I was looking around some places you can get it in
Galveston, galveston treeconservancy it has some, some
yopon trees.
I'm sure several of the youknow the garden.
Yeah, purveyors around herealso sell it.
Yeah, and like you go to anyranch and you're going to see it
somewhere, yeah, it's a prettyincredible tree.
(15:00):
It's I won't say it's invasive,because it's native but, it,
it'll force a lot of otherthings kind of off the property
and it will take over, which iscool because you know, there you
have a commercial opportunity.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If you want to get rid of some of it.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's right.
That's right.
So the natives used to, ofcourse, drink it, just like we
are today, basically just on itsown, but they used to mix it
with other things as well.
Right yeah, and the Spanish didas well.
When they arrived in theFlorida's and things like that.
They mixed with chocolate andother things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yep, absolutely so.
The natives used it in just kindof everyday drink, but also
they would use it a lot inspiritual rituals and this is
one of the areas or one of thereasons that people believe it
was named Ilex vomitoria isbecause they would consume
massive amounts of it, you know,boiling hot, as hot as they
(15:52):
could possibly stand it, andthen they would.
They would throw up afterwardsand the idea was this would you
know, really clear their mind.
In a lot of history that I read, like in Florida, for instance,
some of the tribes would drinkit to really get that clarity
and like, after you have a cupof this, you're thinking
theobromine, caffeine.
(16:12):
You know your mind is supersharp and so they would leave
some of their biggest decisionsto these moments when their mind
was really clear.
Now, if you drink this on itsown, if you drink gallons and
gallons, yeah, might make youthrow up, but on its own it's
not going to make you throw up.
So some people were thinkingthat the reason these natives
would throw up afterwards is thequantities, or that they'd mix
(16:35):
it with something.
To your point, and there's noreal strong history on what they
would mix it with, but, likethe Caranquans, for instance
around here.
You know that have been knownthe history here around
Galveston Island the Caranquanswould frequently drink this,
this Casina.
You know this Yopon, and youalso, when you start digging
(16:56):
into the history, you see thatit was traded throughout North
America.
It was traded with tribesMidwest, southwest, you know,
really far outside of its actualrange, because think about how
far coffee has made it right.
Everybody in the world hasexperienced coffee in one way or
another.
And so think about beforecoffee, this was like the next,
(17:19):
this was, this was the thing andwas traded all over North
America.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
That's a valuable commodity to trade with the
areas that it, where it doesn'tgrow naturally right, absolutely
yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, and there's some really interesting like
there's a few images in thisbook.
You start digging around onwebsites.
There's some ceremonial shellsthat they would actually drink
it out of and I'm thinking allright, we need a shop in
Galveston that has some shellsthat you can drink coffee tea
out of and you can buy Yopon,you know, right there.
Oh, that'd be great.
Make it yourself at home,that'd be great.
Oh man, let's get it started.
(17:49):
A little thermos shell.
Okay, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's do it.
Well, I was reading I think itwas in this book the Atacapin
tribe that was around this area,around where the Caracuas were
as well.
They would drink during theirspiritual rituals, their
cleansing rituals.
Over three days they would fastand drink around and this is
the Spanish accounts, spanishand French accounts but they
would drink around six gallonsof that throughout the day to
(18:15):
cleanse themselves.
It just blows my mind, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, and now you know, there's these trends
around fasting and there's a lotmore research that's telling us
all the health benefits offasting, especially fasting
safely.
And so you think about.
You know, these are notdiscoveries we're making now.
These are things that NativeAmericans have known for a long
time.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, tens of thousands of years.
Really I mean, yeah, absolutely, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And you know there's a handful of accounts where not
necessarily businesses, butwhere purveyors of Yopon in the
1800s would say you know, we'vediscovered this new tea and it's
been used.
I think it's been dated back tothe you know almost 1000 AD.
Oh my gosh, when it was likethe first instance or that's
(19:02):
what they dated back based onshells that were used for
drinking and there was residualsof Yopon oh, okay, so that's
not as far back as I wasthinking originally.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I'm sure it goes back further, that's you
know with science and history.
They have to have some sort ofproof somewhere.
Right, that's true.
So I'm sure it goes back evenfurther than that Well, speaking
of, you know proof right orfirsthand accounts right.
One of the first writtenaccounts of Yopon being used and
drank here was from Cabeza deVaca, who shipwrecked somewhere
(19:31):
along the Texas coast, probablyGalveston, and in 1542, when he
went back to Spain, he wrotedown all of his accounts that
when he spent nine years hereroaming the American Southwest
essentially, and that was one ofthe first accounts of Yopon
being drank here in NorthAmerica.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, absolutely, Pretty interesting.
I think there was a Spanishpriest also that said you know
the men here I think it wasreferring to Florida but the men
here have to drink this everyday.
Yeah, it's like their coffee.
Yeah, he didn't say thatbecause coffee wasn't as big,
but if a day without Yopon?
Or Casina as he said, was youknow a day wasted?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, right, that's.
It's like coffee with me.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, or coffee in general?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I'm ready to be converted to Yopon though.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I am.
It's fun, it really is.
And you know, when you learn alittle bit more about the
conspiracy to then like this,maybe this is what will convert
people back to Yopon and replacecoffee Sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I love conspiracy theories and proving
conspiracies as well, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Well, you ready to dive in?
Let's do it.
Okay, let's dive into it.
All right.
So you know we've got thescientific name Alex Vomitoria.
As I said, you know, yopon wasdrank a lot by natives and then
the settlers really started tocatch on and they loved it here
in North America.
And shortly before the AmericanRevolution, you know, think
(20:59):
like Boston Tea Party the priceof Asian tea that was coming
through England was through theroof and most of Europe was
really encapsulated by thisAsian tea trend.
But all of a sudden they foundthat there was this other option
in North America and so a lotof Americans were at that time,
(21:19):
you know, settlers in the USwere really drinking a fair
amount of this.
You have the AmericanRevolution Almost all trade from
England slows down or stops,especially around tea, and so
American, you know, purveyorsstart to sell it locally and a
fair amount of Americanmerchants start to sell it in
(21:42):
Europe and it starts to catch on.
Like I said, it caught on inParis, you know, throughout
France.
It's caught on in Spain, it'scaught on throughout Britain or
Great Britain.
So there was a couple ofinstances in England where they
actually had like a publicrelations, where they said you
(22:10):
know, you're not English if youdrink other teas, only English
drink, only drink English tea.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Right, but then you also had around the Carolinas, I
think, shortly after the theAmerican Revolution you had this
German botanist that had tastedYopan and said this is you know
, there's a great alternative toAsian teas, and I can actually,
he said, I can see how thiswould be a threat to the British
(22:35):
East India company whichcommanded most of the tea trade
at that time.
Well, fast forward about 30years and in 1789, the famed
botanist and the firstsuperintendent of the Royal
Botanical Gardens in England,who was appointed by King George
III, he actually gives you uponthe controversial science,
(22:58):
scientific name of Ilexvomitoria, and you can imagine
somebody that that hears aboutthat.
Nobody wants to drink that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
No right, has vomit in the name.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, and as soon as you Google Yopan, that's the
first thing that pops up.
And that's what a lot of morethe more recent merchants have
had to deal with.
So there's this stigma.
Well, another reallyinteresting note is, about 30
years before that, carl Linnaeus, who's like now known as the
father of taxonomy, right In1753, he gave Yopan the
(23:29):
scientific name Ilex Cassin,because everybody in Europe had
known it as Cassina, andLinnaeus actually thought that
Yopan and this newly discoveredDahun Holly, which is also found
in the same area throughout theUS, were the same species.
So then we get back again to1789, when this botanist for
(23:55):
King George III says oh, we'vegot two plants that are
different species, I need torename this.
I'm going to go ahead andrename this tea, you know, the
Yopan tea and the plant Ilexvomitoria.
And so the conspiracy theory isthat he actually did that to
(24:16):
disrupt the tea industry, right?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This trade that was starting out of North America.
A lot of people try and forgivehim and say you know, there was
a lot of historical accountswere drinking Yopan would make
you vomit, but I think it.
I think there's a lot ofevidence for the conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean he was kind of under the thumb of the king as
well, right, and that makes alot of sense to hurt the
American economy at that point,oh yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And shortly after that you see declines across
Europe.
They don't really.
You know, the popularity really, really tanked.
Now I'd say the commercialpopularity in the US also tanked
, but there were a lot of, ofcourse, native people and then
people throughout the southeastthat continued to drink it.
You find some accounts fromlike the Civil War, when British
(25:06):
tea and you know, tea fromSoutheast Asia was really hard
to find, so they would drinkmore of the local Yopan tea.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Ah, that makes so much sense.
That makes so much senseBecause, you know, during the
Civil War you just kind of walkout in the woods, wherever
you're camping, and go find thatYopan and brew it up for the,
for your boys out there.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Absolutely Find what's available to you.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You'd be the most popular guy.
You know how to source Yopanand go get it, yeah no doubt.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, and you know, you've got caffeine, you've got
theobrobin.
Like it's not like you'reforcing this stuff down.
It's really, you know, it'sreally good tea.
So fast forward to kind of theearly 1940s, 1950s and it starts
to make a little bit of aresurgence.
In the US the USDA even didsome research into could this be
(25:51):
a commercially viable species?
And then here in Texas I firstsaw it at a farmer's market in
early 2000s.
It was probably like 2006,.
2007, a company that is stillaround and I brought a little
bag of it today called LostPines Yopan Tea, phenomenal tea.
They tell you how to make it.
(26:11):
You know they've got.
They've got all sorts ofvarieties green, light roasted,
dark roasted.
There's another company inTexas called Cat Springs Yopan.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I saw something about them yesterday.
Really fascinating what they'redoing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, absolutely, and so I think there's a handful of
companies here in Texas thatare doing a good job of making
great Yopan, roasting greatYopan, but also honoring that,
the tradition, the nativetraditions, right, and not
trying to rebrand it or takeover, really recognizing that
this came from some of the firstpeoples in the Southeast.
You've got a.
(26:48):
There's a huge group out ofFlorida called Yopan Brothers.
They do a really good job oftelling the history as well.
And then, like, there's allthese new, these really new uses
for it, like you see, yopanMatcha, there's a Yopan soda,
yopan Kombucha, there's even aYopan Gin out of there's a Texas
(27:09):
.
Distiller just outside of Austinnamed Treaty Oak.
Yeah, I'm about to get on theonline and see if I can order
something.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, go up there, make a drive up there.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, and it's kind of a dark gin but it's supposed
to be great.
So there's, there's.
There's certainly this economythat's starting to boom right
now around around Yopan, thisresurgence which, and you know,
again, it's great, it's greattasting, but you learn all this
history.
It's like all right, you'reyou're literally drinking
history.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, you know.
I wonder if we would appreciateit as much if the name you know
like we would be appreciated asmuch today if that name would
have been changed.
Or would we have kind of takenit for granted if a Yopan
industry would have taken off inthe late 1700s?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I imagine it wouldn't.
It wouldn't be having theresurgence you know, especially
nowadays, where people like astory behind what they're eating
and drinking.
But we also wouldn't have seenas big a drop off in the
drinking in the 1700s.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it would have .
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I think it would have continued to thrive.
And now there are even somereally incredible programs I've
seen throughout, like SoutheastUS, where they're you know,
they're repatriating somehistorically black farms,
working with farmers toinstitute Yopan as one of the
key crops and and catch on tothis or keep up with this, this
(28:35):
boom in Yopan.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, I mean it could you know, maybe not
disrupt the billions of dollartea industry, but it definitely
could make it down here in theUS for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, no doubt, and I think you know even foragers
and small scale.
You could.
You could start a smallbusiness out of this pretty
easily.
There's no place on the islandto get it right now.
I even stopped in atFreckleberry this morning and
they're hoping to eventually getsome.
Maybe this is the, maybe thisis the push to finally source
some, this lost pines Yopan teagroup.
(29:04):
They actually will go in andclear some Yopan in order to
make room for other nativespecies, and one of their things
is this the Houston Toad, whichis endangered and is their logo
.
They actually go into thehabitats to pull out Yopon and
(29:28):
encourage those other nativespecies that are much more
benevolent to the Houston Toad.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Is it I didn't tell me about the Houston Toad?
I don't know much.
I don't know much more beyondthat.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Like they've, got some really cool stories on
their website too.
Ok, and the fact that againthat it's, it's kind of a dual
purpose, right.
It's not just commercialselling of this.
They're also having anenvironmental impact and trying
to trying to regrow some ofthese Houston Toad habitats.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That's so cool.
That is awesome.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Everything.
If it's got a story, you'remuch more likely to eat or drink
it.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's right.
That's like the farmer's market, the meat.
It's like you tell the storybehind the animal there and
that's right.
Whatever, before you buy themeat.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, one day we will have.
Every Yopon tea will have aname, and you'll hear the
history of every, every Yoponleaf.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, and it's kind of bringing back to Galveston
right.
It grows naturally here on theisland right and has for
thousands of years.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely One of these days.
I got to get you out there andI'll take you to one of my
favorite foraging spots.
We usually bring the kids outafter rain is nice because it
washes some of the cobwebs offor any kind of residuals, yeah,
and then we take it home.
We usually rinse it off ifthere's, you know, if you see
some more cobwebs but then roastit.
My kids haven't grown to lovepicking or drinking it, but gets
(30:49):
them outdoors especially.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
But they will definitely remember it.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh yeah, that's right , it's all about memories.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
They'll know all about Yopon for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's try this man.
I want to try it out, all right, yeah, I brought some in today.
Sweet, I've never had Yopon.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
So this is home roasted.
It's a it's a dark roast, Iwould say OK.
So I've got a little bag ofsome of the some of the roasted
leaves.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh God, it smells so good.
You know it's funny, it smellslike tea.
Yeah, right I mean, it's like Idon't know what to expect.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
But you can smell, like you could take a little
whiff of the leaves there.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
God, it smells so good.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, so imagine roasting that in your house.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I'm going to go find some Yopon today.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great little micro adventure.
We've been trying to find asmany micro adventures around the
island where you don't have toplan.
You know, two, three dayweekend, you can go do something
in a couple hours.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And this is not sweetened.
Not sweetened at all, it's,it's sweet.
I mean not overwhelmingly sweet, but it is.
It has a sweet flavor to it.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
There's no bitterness and that one I actually forgot
about, so I let that one steep alot longer than I should have,
but it's still.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So this would be more of like the dark, dark roast,
that's more of a dark roastAgain.
So we're on camera.
I don't know if you can I knowyou can't see it.
Ok, that is unbelievable.
Oh my gosh, dude, and it grow.
This is unbelievable, it'scrazy, right?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, so where I?
When I first learned about this, I'd come back from a work trip
to the Bahamas, and they drinka lot of bush tea, so they're
walking down the road again.
If you didn't want to pay a lotof the import prices, you'd
just pick some of your own tea.
And I came back to Galveston.
I'm thinking we've got to havesome bush tea on the island and
(32:34):
I start looking it up and rightoff the bat your pond pops up
and it is.
It's one of those, you can pickit you know wherever you see it,
as long as it's legal.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh yeah, right Right.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I've even tried to kind of slow roast and smoke it.
There's some really smoky teasout there.
There's like a Russian caravantea and then there's a lap
saying Sushong.
Are both like, really like.
It's smells like I'm drinking acampfire.
It turns out decent, but Istill think black, regular
(33:04):
roasted iced teas is the bestway to.
Yeah, I can imagine this icedGod it'd be so good I haven't
mixed it with anything.
Maybe one day mix it with alittle bit of that Yopongin, but
right for now, just drinking itin the morning, and that's
great Dude.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
well, thanks so much for coming in and telling us
about it.
Is there anything else youwanted to cover and talk about?
Maybe your your work now orsome of the fisheries work
you've done in the past?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, oh boy, that's a whole other episode.
Yeah, talking about the historyof fisheries in the Gulf of
Mexico.
That would be a fun one.
We were talking about this,this book, the Gulf that you've
got here, and that's.
That's a phenomenal book toteach the history of the Gulf,
both the natural history as wellas, you know, the human history
(33:49):
throughout the evolution.
But, yeah, I mean fisheries.
Let's, let's set a date andyeah, for sure.
That on another time I wouldlove to.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Well cool, seth.
Thank you so much for coming inand talking about Yopon.
It grows right here in ourbackyard has a fascinating
history.
One of the first accounts offirst written accounts by
Europeans was from Cabeza deVaca, who ship right here along
the Texas coast in 1528, whichis pretty insane.
I mean to think about how farback that history goes and how
(34:20):
it all ties back to Galvestonand the Texas coast.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some fascinatinghistory here.
Yeah, man Well appreciate it.
Thanks Time today.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Appreciate it, man.
Thanks, all right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Awesome, you liked it , huh that was good, thank you.
You know, when you learn a little bit more about
the conspiracy to Then like this, maybe this is what will
convert people back to Yopon andreplace coffee.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to Galveston unscripted.
In this episode today I sit downwith sep hokobo, a scientist
who has worked on fisheries andecology projects around the
United States and the Caribbean.
In this episode, seponite sitdown and discuss Yopon Holly,
one of the United States onlynative caffeinated plants that
could be found right here onGalveston Island.
Now, for some context, seponitemet for coffee and tea a few
(00:35):
weeks ago and we sat down andstarted discussing Yopon Holly
and sep, as a Yopon harvesterand tea drinker, started to
describe to me some of theconspiracy behind Yopon, and I
found it fascinating and I beganwondering how I could tie Yopon
back to the history ofGalveston Island.
Well, as luck would have it,sep let me borrow a book and of
(00:56):
course he dog-eared a few pagesthat specifically discussed
Galveston and the Texas area.
Alvar Nunez Cabez de vacashipwrecked along the Texas
coast in 1528, possibly onGalveston Island, and some of
the first written accounts ofYopon being drank by the natives
in this area was from AlvarNunez Cabez de vaca in his
(01:17):
writings later on in his life.
And of course that ties thehistory of Yopon being drank by
the natives in this area Back toTexas history.
So I invited sep to join me inthe studio to discuss a little
bit of the history on YoponHolly and how it can be
harvested here on GalvestonIsland safely and responsibly.
Of course, I've linked a fewresources in the description of
(01:38):
this episode on how to safelyidentify and and harvest Yopon
for yourself, or you could evenjust purchase it from some of
the vendors that are selling itin our area.
Either way, this is anabsolutely fascinating
discussion on Yopon here inGalveston and across the
southeast of the United States.
Without further ado, let's hopright into this episode
Discussing a little bit of thehistory behind Yopon with sep
(02:01):
hokubo.
Welcome to Galveston.
Unscripted.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
But yeah, it looks great in here and the pictures
set a good tone.
I didn't know you werephotographer.
These are great.
Well amateur, heavy amateurstill counts.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
But the the night ones actually.
So that one over there and thatone the bottom one over there.
I Started like late last year Istarted going live on tiktok
Okay, out of there's, justrandomly.
I saw like live was getting bigon tiktok.
I was like I'm gonna go live,walk around Galveston at night
and Take night photography shots.
So a lot of these were like inthe downtown area and then my
(02:37):
neighborhood so I just walkaround, cool, and it was so
crazy to see like 1200 peoplefrom around the country Watching
a live tiktok of me walkingaround Galveston you know it's
so crazy, but then I would poston my Instagram and it would
actually drive traffic to myInstagram.
I was like, oh, I see, this isgreat, so you're capturing an
audience and able to bring themover to a different platform.
So, that's kind of what I did.
(02:58):
And then, whenever we put thesound panels up which are sound
panels back here, by the wayokay, I printed out the these
photos and like, all right,we're gonna put these over those
.
So I want to kind of cover itup a little bit cool.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, man, very cool.
Have you had any like highschool students in here,
anything like like the ball high?
No just the space is likeinspirational.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Thanks, yeah, I like seeing this would be like, all
right, I could do this, you know.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Well, that means a lot man.
Yeah, means a lot, it reallydoes, because, I mean, this has
been like a a dream come true,honestly.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
I love.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I get to talk about my hometown and kind of make
Make something out of a smallplace.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, about a small thing.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, you know and really dive deep into it.
So yeah, man very cool.
Well, seth, thanks for comingin today, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, I'm excited about that, yeah for sure, man.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Well, if you want, you can get more comfortable,
and yeah, you know.
Whatever, you can lean back alittle bit if you want to.
But, um, first, I, I, you havethe most interesting name I have
ever heard.
I can never say your last name,by the way.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
That's all right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Hacobo, hacobo.
Yeah, and it's sep.
Yep, I've never met another sepin my life.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, I've only known of one other one.
Oh really yeah, friend of my,my family back from Germany.
So sep is German for Joseph.
Oh really, okay, dad.
His dad served in the militaryafter World War two.
My dad was born over there.
His name was Joseph, and sowhen I came around they said
(04:26):
we're gonna name him sep.
So Geo sep.
He's like the Italian version,and then Hacobo is Norwegian.
That's more like familyancestry there.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Gotcha yeah, sweet man yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, when I was a kid, I mean I hated it.
You know you're like ah, thisis brutal.
None of my teachers canpronounce anything.
I got the weird name in classand then eventually you know,
you grow into it and youappreciate the weirdness.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah Well, I'll never forget,
like when I went to AnemGalveston, you were one of the
scholarship advisors and Everytime your email would come
across.
I don't know, I cannot say.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Hibuko we'd be like.
As a group We'd like is itHibuko?
I don't know, we can't say it,we can't read.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Of course we're at am my cousin, when he was real
little teacher, was kind ofstumbling and he was in first
grade and she said what is yourlast name?
And he said sound it out.
That's what teachers are alllike telling the kids, right?
So she said haka, bow.
He said good job, that'sperfect yeah.
Yeah, it looks scary, but onceyou get into it it ain't bad.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, before we get into the topic of conversation
today, which is Yopon, yopon.
I can never really pronouncethat either you got it Just like
your last name.
Could you tell us a little bitabout your background?
Yeah where you come from andhow you got to the point you're
in now.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, great question.
So I grew up in northern NewMexico Just with the love for
the outdoors.
You know we were ice fishing, wewere skiing cross-country
skiing, hiking, fishing, youname it but I always loved the
ocean.
Anytime we traveled, we'd tryand you know, just backpack and
my family was Trying to dothings on a budget.
(06:01):
We'd go to a little town inMexico and I said, you know,
this is what I want to, this iswhat I want to do when I grow up
.
I want to be near the ocean, Iwant to study the ocean.
So I found out from some highschool teachers that Texas A&M
has a branch in Galveston TexasA&M Galveston.
That's world-renowned formarine biology, oceanography,
(06:21):
marine fisheries, so naturallymade the hop down here.
I didn't even look at eastcoast or west coast, it didn't
really matter, because there wasa great place right here in the
Gulf.
So I went through my undergradand masters there, had a lot of
really fun, you know, summerjobs, internship opportunities
(06:44):
and then my degree took me toWashington DC to work on the
science and policy kind ofinterface and then eventually
made it back to the Gulf and nowwork on conservation in the
Gulf of Mexico and Caribbeanbasin, especially on the marine
fishery side.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Awesome man, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, it's been a journey.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, so you're actually doing something with
your degree.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, like they say, you know, it's a license to
drive right, like it you provethat you can finish things, and
there's a lot of stuff I do notremember.
I mean just doing research forthis podcast, I had to go back
through some of the history ontaxonomy and scientific names
and you're like, wow, you know.
flashback 20 years ago whenyou're learning about this in
(07:30):
class you're thinking, oh,scientific names are so boring.
But then you start to learn howinteresting they are as you get
a little bit older and likewe'll get into in a little bit
the conspiracy that can comewith some of that scientific
naming.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And that's fascinating For some context of
about a month and a half agomaybe.
We sat down, had some coffeeand you gave me this book Black
Drink and you dog-eared a fewpages in here that specifically
talk about the Galveston area inTexas.
But going through this book youstart learning about this plant
(08:03):
that grows native in this areain the southeastern United
States and Texas and that is theonly naturally or only
caffeinated plant in NorthAmerica.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Native to North America, native North America?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
And evidently you know you were mentioning to me
that there was a conspiracybehind why it's named what it is
today.
The scientific name is what itis today.
So I'm yeah, I want to get intothat and like talk about some
of the benefits behind thisthing and how it's kind of
making a resurgence now.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Yeah, today we'll be talking alittle bit about Yopon, or Yopon
Holly as a lot of folks know it.
Ilex Vomitoria is thescientific name, and I got to
make a note right up front.
I am, you know, I'm not abotanist.
I also am not a nutritionistand I can't tell you, you know,
(08:54):
this is what looks good.
Go ahead and brew it or eat it.
But Yopon itself is the Yoponberries are toxic, but the
leaves you can make a terrifictea out of it and they are not
emetic or the scientific wordfor makes you vomit.
But as you can tell, there is,you know, in that scientific
(09:15):
name, ilex Vomitoria.
There's some history there.
So I figured maybe I'd startoff with some fun facts.
Yeah, let's do it we can get tothe really interesting part,
yeah let's do it for sure theconspiracy behind the scientific
name.
Yeah, like you said, this is oneof North America's most
caffeinated native plants.
Depending on how you brew it,it's a little bit less
(09:36):
caffeinated than coffee, so it'ssimilar to like Yerba mate
which is having its moment rightnow as well.
Yerba mate is known as IlexParaguariensis, so it's a cousin
.
Yopon actually means littletree in.
I had to look this up, but it'sa Katowban language, which are
natives based around theAppalachian plateau.
(09:59):
Okay okay, but like the Cherokeepeoples called it their beloved
tree.
When Spanish colonials werevisiting Florida they called it
Te de Indio, the Indian tea.
It was also really commonlyknown as Casina and for a while
(10:20):
in England it was called SouthCT.
South CT Kind of a rebrandingright, which would be kind of a
cool like Gulf of Mexico brand.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, it really would be South CT.
I like that yeah good ring.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
And then for a little while it even had a moment in
Paris and it was calledAppalachian in Parisian cafe.
So all good names, right?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, how foreign and exotic.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, right, and the funny thing is, once you
identify it and you startlooking around, you may even see
it in your backyard.
You'll see it all overGalveston.
You'll see it all over Centraland Southeast Texas.
It grows from the Carolinasdown to Florida and then from
Florida all the way to CentralTexas.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
And you'll just be blown away that there, here's
this incredible tea that'sgrowing right in front of you,
and I talked to some folks thatgrowing up maybe they were in
Boy Scouts or whatever it wasthey were always told by their
parents that is toxic that willmake you vomit the berries, of
course, but everybody alsothought the teas were dangerous.
(11:24):
So, yeah, there's a lot ofhistory there.
One of the things that made itsuch a great tea is that it
doesn't have tannins, andtannins are what make tea a
little bit bitter.
Yeah, so I've actually, whenI've been brewing it, I'll leave
it and forget about it.
20 minutes later I'll come back.
That would ruin any other kindof green or black tea and it's
(11:47):
still just as good.
It also has a really greatflavor when you make iced tea
out of it.
That's actually my favorite way.
It has like a little bit of aCola flavor.
So like your traditionalsouthern black iced tea with a
little bit of cola added in it.
Like that cola flavor just isincredible.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
I think my mouth is watering now.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, and we brought some for you to try today too.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Dude, I'm excited.
I can't wait to try it, yeahabsolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Another fun fact it's packed with theobromine, which
is a stimulant that's naturallyfound in chocolate.
So think about that buzz youkind of get, yeah, having a, you
know, a nice dark chocolate bar.
Theobromine is also a slightaphrodisiac, so don't drink too
much of this in the morning, youknow, wait till the evenings.
It's a mood booster and itboosts energy levels, yeah, so
(12:41):
you can really see why it wasrevered by so many of the native
cultures around the NorthAmerica.
Yeah, yeah, a couple ways toprepare it.
Green is really good.
You can kind of dry it and thenjust make a green tea, but also
I love to pick some, you know,sustainably around here on the
island, roast it at about 400degrees in the oven for like
(13:04):
eight minutes.
Your whole house will juststart to smell incredible.
Oh wow, you go too long, though,and it will char and you'll get
you know, the wife will betelling you what are you?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, what are you burning in here?
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But it's kind of like coffee.
You could do a light roast adark roast.
That changes the flavor, thatchanges, you know, the level of
caffeine.
So it's really fun to playaround with and it's not like
you're having to source coffeebeans from you know another
country and potentially have topay for all that.
It's just a really fun thing toexperiment with.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
That's crazy.
You can literally grow it inyour backyard.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It blows my mind.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, and you know, if you're going to forage it, I
would encourage folks to checkout.
There's a great website calledForaging Texas.
That guy actually does clinicskind of or workshops all over
the state and this is one of thefirst places I learned about it
.
But he'll tell you.
You know, like don't don'tforage on the side of a highway.
You've got all sorts ofpollutants in the air.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Oh, you know you don't want to trespass.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
You want to try and harvest from areas where you
know there hasn't been like aspill or a toxic dump.
You always want to be careful.
You know, know the rules andregulations if you're in a city
park or a state park or anational park, but other than
that, I mean you will see iteverywhere, yeah, and there's
also some commercially availableproducts around Texas too, and
(14:23):
the opon is a pretty robustplant, right.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I mean it'll survive in this area naturally, natively
, through thick and thin,basically yeah absolutely so it
will grow on the side of ahighway or like in an area where
there have been pollutants.
Yeah, yeah, you'll find italmost everywhere.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I was looking around some places you can get it in
Galveston, galveston treeconservancy it has some, some
yopon trees.
I'm sure several of the youknow the garden.
Yeah, purveyors around herealso sell it.
Yeah, and like you go to anyranch and you're going to see it
somewhere, yeah, it's a prettyincredible tree.
(15:00):
It's I won't say it's invasive,because it's native but, it,
it'll force a lot of otherthings kind of off the property
and it will take over, which iscool because you know, there you
have a commercial opportunity.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
If you want to get rid of some of it.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's right.
That's right.
So the natives used to, ofcourse, drink it, just like we
are today, basically just on itsown, but they used to mix it
with other things as well.
Right yeah, and the Spanish didas well.
When they arrived in theFlorida's and things like that.
They mixed with chocolate andother things like that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yep, absolutely so.
The natives used it in just kindof everyday drink, but also
they would use it a lot inspiritual rituals and this is
one of the areas or one of thereasons that people believe it
was named Ilex vomitoria isbecause they would consume
massive amounts of it, you know,boiling hot, as hot as they
(15:52):
could possibly stand it, andthen they would.
They would throw up afterwardsand the idea was this would you
know, really clear their mind.
In a lot of history that I read, like in Florida, for instance,
some of the tribes would drinkit to really get that clarity
and like, after you have a cupof this, you're thinking
theobromine, caffeine.
(16:12):
You know your mind is supersharp and so they would leave
some of their biggest decisionsto these moments when their mind
was really clear.
Now, if you drink this on itsown, if you drink gallons and
gallons, yeah, might make youthrow up, but on its own it's
not going to make you throw up.
So some people were thinkingthat the reason these natives
would throw up afterwards is thequantities, or that they'd mix
(16:35):
it with something.
To your point, and there's noreal strong history on what they
would mix it with, but, likethe Caranquans, for instance
around here.
You know that have been knownthe history here around
Galveston Island the Caranquanswould frequently drink this,
this Casina.
You know this Yopon, and youalso, when you start digging
(16:56):
into the history, you see thatit was traded throughout North
America.
It was traded with tribesMidwest, southwest, you know,
really far outside of its actualrange, because think about how
far coffee has made it right.
Everybody in the world hasexperienced coffee in one way or
another.
And so think about beforecoffee, this was like the next,
(17:19):
this was, this was the thing andwas traded all over North
America.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
That's a valuable commodity to trade with the
areas that it, where it doesn'tgrow naturally right, absolutely
yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, and there's some really interesting like
there's a few images in thisbook.
You start digging around onwebsites.
There's some ceremonial shellsthat they would actually drink
it out of and I'm thinking allright, we need a shop in
Galveston that has some shellsthat you can drink coffee tea
out of and you can buy Yopon,you know, right there.
Oh, that'd be great.
Make it yourself at home,that'd be great.
Oh man, let's get it started.
(17:49):
A little thermos shell.
Okay, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Let's do it.
Well, I was reading I think itwas in this book the Atacapin
tribe that was around this area,around where the Caracuas were
as well.
They would drink during theirspiritual rituals, their
cleansing rituals.
Over three days they would fastand drink around and this is
the Spanish accounts, spanishand French accounts but they
would drink around six gallonsof that throughout the day to
(18:15):
cleanse themselves.
It just blows my mind, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Well, and now you know, there's these trends
around fasting and there's a lotmore research that's telling us
all the health benefits offasting, especially fasting
safely.
And so you think about.
You know, these are notdiscoveries we're making now.
These are things that NativeAmericans have known for a long
time.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, tens of thousands of years.
Really I mean, yeah, absolutely, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
And you know there's a handful of accounts where not
necessarily businesses, butwhere purveyors of Yopon in the
1800s would say you know, we'vediscovered this new tea and it's
been used.
I think it's been dated back tothe you know almost 1000 AD.
Oh my gosh, when it was likethe first instance or that's
(19:02):
what they dated back based onshells that were used for
drinking and there was residualsof Yopon oh, okay, so that's
not as far back as I wasthinking originally.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, I'm sure it goes back further, that's you
know with science and history.
They have to have some sort ofproof somewhere.
Right, that's true.
So I'm sure it goes back evenfurther than that Well, speaking
of, you know proof right orfirsthand accounts right.
One of the first writtenaccounts of Yopon being used and
drank here was from Cabeza deVaca, who shipwrecked somewhere
(19:31):
along the Texas coast, probablyGalveston, and in 1542, when he
went back to Spain, he wrotedown all of his accounts that
when he spent nine years hereroaming the American Southwest
essentially, and that was one ofthe first accounts of Yopon
being drank here in NorthAmerica.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, absolutely, Pretty interesting.
I think there was a Spanishpriest also that said you know
the men here I think it wasreferring to Florida but the men
here have to drink this everyday.
Yeah, it's like their coffee.
Yeah, he didn't say thatbecause coffee wasn't as big,
but if a day without Yopon?
Or Casina as he said, was youknow a day wasted?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, right, that's.
It's like coffee with me.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, or coffee in general?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I'm ready to be converted to Yopon though.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I am.
It's fun, it really is.
And you know, when you learn alittle bit more about the
conspiracy to then like this,maybe this is what will convert
people back to Yopon and replacecoffee Sweet.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I love conspiracy theories and proving
conspiracies as well, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Well, you ready to dive in?
Let's do it.
Okay, let's dive into it.
All right.
So you know we've got thescientific name Alex Vomitoria.
As I said, you know, yopon wasdrank a lot by natives and then
the settlers really started tocatch on and they loved it here
in North America.
And shortly before the AmericanRevolution, you know, think
(20:59):
like Boston Tea Party the priceof Asian tea that was coming
through England was through theroof and most of Europe was
really encapsulated by thisAsian tea trend.
But all of a sudden they foundthat there was this other option
in North America and so a lotof Americans were at that time,
(21:19):
you know, settlers in the USwere really drinking a fair
amount of this.
You have the AmericanRevolution Almost all trade from
England slows down or stops,especially around tea, and so
American, you know, purveyorsstart to sell it locally and a
fair amount of Americanmerchants start to sell it in
(21:42):
Europe and it starts to catch on.
Like I said, it caught on inParis, you know, throughout
France.
It's caught on in Spain, it'scaught on throughout Britain or
Great Britain.
So there was a couple ofinstances in England where they
actually had like a publicrelations, where they said you
(22:10):
know, you're not English if youdrink other teas, only English
drink, only drink English tea.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Right, but then you also had around the Carolinas, I
think, shortly after the theAmerican Revolution you had this
German botanist that had tastedYopan and said this is you know
, there's a great alternative toAsian teas, and I can actually,
he said, I can see how thiswould be a threat to the British
(22:35):
East India company whichcommanded most of the tea trade
at that time.
Well, fast forward about 30years and in 1789, the famed
botanist and the firstsuperintendent of the Royal
Botanical Gardens in England,who was appointed by King George
III, he actually gives you uponthe controversial science,
(22:58):
scientific name of Ilexvomitoria, and you can imagine
somebody that that hears aboutthat.
Nobody wants to drink that.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
No right, has vomit in the name.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, and as soon as you Google Yopan, that's the
first thing that pops up.
And that's what a lot of morethe more recent merchants have
had to deal with.
So there's this stigma.
Well, another reallyinteresting note is, about 30
years before that, carl Linnaeus, who's like now known as the
father of taxonomy, right In1753, he gave Yopan the
(23:29):
scientific name Ilex Cassin,because everybody in Europe had
known it as Cassina, andLinnaeus actually thought that
Yopan and this newly discoveredDahun Holly, which is also found
in the same area throughout theUS, were the same species.
So then we get back again to1789, when this botanist for
(23:55):
King George III says oh, we'vegot two plants that are
different species, I need torename this.
I'm going to go ahead andrename this tea, you know, the
Yopan tea and the plant Ilexvomitoria.
And so the conspiracy theory isthat he actually did that to
(24:16):
disrupt the tea industry, right?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
This trade that was starting out of North America.
A lot of people try and forgivehim and say you know, there was
a lot of historical accountswere drinking Yopan would make
you vomit, but I think it.
I think there's a lot ofevidence for the conspiracy.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean he was kind of under the thumb of the king as
well, right, and that makes alot of sense to hurt the
American economy at that point,oh yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
And shortly after that you see declines across
Europe.
They don't really.
You know, the popularity really, really tanked.
Now I'd say the commercialpopularity in the US also tanked
, but there were a lot of, ofcourse, native people and then
people throughout the southeastthat continued to drink it.
You find some accounts fromlike the Civil War, when British
(25:06):
tea and you know, tea fromSoutheast Asia was really hard
to find, so they would drinkmore of the local Yopan tea.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Ah, that makes so much sense.
That makes so much senseBecause, you know, during the
Civil War you just kind of walkout in the woods, wherever
you're camping, and go find thatYopan and brew it up for the,
for your boys out there.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Absolutely Find what's available to you.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
You'd be the most popular guy.
You know how to source Yopanand go get it, yeah no doubt.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, and you know, you've got caffeine, you've got
theobrobin.
Like it's not like you'reforcing this stuff down.
It's really, you know, it'sreally good tea.
So fast forward to kind of theearly 1940s, 1950s and it starts
to make a little bit of aresurgence.
In the US the USDA even didsome research into could this be
(25:51):
a commercially viable species?
And then here in Texas I firstsaw it at a farmer's market in
early 2000s.
It was probably like 2006,.
2007, a company that is stillaround and I brought a little
bag of it today called LostPines Yopan Tea, phenomenal tea.
They tell you how to make it.
(26:11):
You know they've got.
They've got all sorts ofvarieties green, light roasted,
dark roasted.
There's another company inTexas called Cat Springs Yopan.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I saw something about them yesterday.
Really fascinating what they'redoing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, absolutely, and so I think there's a handful of
companies here in Texas thatare doing a good job of making
great Yopan, roasting greatYopan, but also honoring that,
the tradition, the nativetraditions, right, and not
trying to rebrand it or takeover, really recognizing that
this came from some of the firstpeoples in the Southeast.
You've got a.
(26:48):
There's a huge group out ofFlorida called Yopan Brothers.
They do a really good job oftelling the history as well.
And then, like, there's allthese new, these really new uses
for it, like you see, yopanMatcha, there's a Yopan soda,
yopan Kombucha, there's even aYopan Gin out of there's a Texas
(27:09):
.
Distiller just outside of Austinnamed Treaty Oak.
Yeah, I'm about to get on theonline and see if I can order
something.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Yeah, go up there, make a drive up there.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, and it's kind of a dark gin but it's supposed
to be great.
So there's, there's.
There's certainly this economythat's starting to boom right
now around around Yopan, thisresurgence which, and you know,
again, it's great, it's greattasting, but you learn all this
history.
It's like all right, you'reyou're literally drinking
history.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah, you know.
I wonder if we would appreciateit as much if the name you know
like we would be appreciated asmuch today if that name would
have been changed.
Or would we have kind of takenit for granted if a Yopan
industry would have taken off inthe late 1700s?
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I imagine it wouldn't.
It wouldn't be having theresurgence you know, especially
nowadays, where people like astory behind what they're eating
and drinking.
But we also wouldn't have seenas big a drop off in the
drinking in the 1700s.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it would have .
Speaker 1 (28:11):
I think it would have continued to thrive.
And now there are even somereally incredible programs I've
seen throughout, like SoutheastUS, where they're you know,
they're repatriating somehistorically black farms,
working with farmers toinstitute Yopan as one of the
key crops and and catch on tothis or keep up with this, this
(28:35):
boom in Yopan.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right, I mean it could you know, maybe not
disrupt the billions of dollartea industry, but it definitely
could make it down here in theUS for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, no doubt, and I think you know even foragers
and small scale.
You could.
You could start a smallbusiness out of this pretty
easily.
There's no place on the islandto get it right now.
I even stopped in atFreckleberry this morning and
they're hoping to eventually getsome.
Maybe this is the, maybe thisis the push to finally source
some, this lost pines Yopan teagroup.
(29:04):
They actually will go in andclear some Yopan in order to
make room for other nativespecies, and one of their things
is this the Houston Toad, whichis endangered and is their logo
.
They actually go into thehabitats to pull out Yopon and
(29:28):
encourage those other nativespecies that are much more
benevolent to the Houston Toad.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Is it I didn't tell me about the Houston Toad?
I don't know much.
I don't know much more beyondthat.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Like they've, got some really cool stories on
their website too.
Ok, and the fact that againthat it's, it's kind of a dual
purpose, right.
It's not just commercialselling of this.
They're also having anenvironmental impact and trying
to trying to regrow some ofthese Houston Toad habitats.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That's so cool.
That is awesome.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Everything.
If it's got a story, you'remuch more likely to eat or drink
it.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
That's right.
That's like the farmer's market, the meat.
It's like you tell the storybehind the animal there and
that's right.
Whatever, before you buy themeat.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Yeah, one day we will have.
Every Yopon tea will have aname, and you'll hear the
history of every, every Yoponleaf.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, and it's kind of bringing back to Galveston
right.
It grows naturally here on theisland right and has for
thousands of years.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely One of these days.
I got to get you out there andI'll take you to one of my
favorite foraging spots.
We usually bring the kids outafter rain is nice because it
washes some of the cobwebs offor any kind of residuals, yeah,
and then we take it home.
We usually rinse it off ifthere's, you know, if you see
some more cobwebs but then roastit.
My kids haven't grown to lovepicking or drinking it, but gets
(30:49):
them outdoors especially.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
But they will definitely remember it.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Oh yeah, that's right , it's all about memories.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
They'll know all about Yopon for sure.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, let's try this man.
I want to try it out, all right, yeah, I brought some in today.
Sweet, I've never had Yopon.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
So this is home roasted.
It's a it's a dark roast, Iwould say OK.
So I've got a little bag ofsome of the some of the roasted
leaves.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Oh God, it smells so good.
You know it's funny, it smellslike tea.
Yeah, right I mean, it's like Idon't know what to expect.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
But you can smell, like you could take a little
whiff of the leaves there.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
God, it smells so good.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Yeah, so imagine roasting that in your house.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
I'm going to go find some Yopon today.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great little micro adventure.
We've been trying to find asmany micro adventures around the
island where you don't have toplan.
You know, two, three dayweekend, you can go do something
in a couple hours.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
And this is not sweetened.
Not sweetened at all, it's,it's sweet.
I mean not overwhelmingly sweet, but it is.
It has a sweet flavor to it.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
There's no bitterness and that one I actually forgot
about, so I let that one steep alot longer than I should have,
but it's still.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
So this would be more of like the dark, dark roast,
that's more of a dark roastAgain.
So we're on camera.
I don't know if you can I knowyou can't see it.
Ok, that is unbelievable.
Oh my gosh, dude, and it grow.
This is unbelievable, it'scrazy, right?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, so where I?
When I first learned about this, I'd come back from a work trip
to the Bahamas, and they drinka lot of bush tea, so they're
walking down the road again.
If you didn't want to pay a lotof the import prices, you'd
just pick some of your own tea.
And I came back to Galveston.
I'm thinking we've got to havesome bush tea on the island and
(32:34):
I start looking it up and rightoff the bat your pond pops up
and it is.
It's one of those, you can pickit you know wherever you see it,
as long as it's legal.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh yeah, right Right.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
I've even tried to kind of slow roast and smoke it.
There's some really smoky teasout there.
There's like a Russian caravantea and then there's a lap
saying Sushong.
Are both like, really like.
It's smells like I'm drinking acampfire.
It turns out decent, but Istill think black, regular
(33:04):
roasted iced teas is the bestway to.
Yeah, I can imagine this icedGod it'd be so good I haven't
mixed it with anything.
Maybe one day mix it with alittle bit of that Yopongin, but
right for now, just drinking itin the morning, and that's
great Dude.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
well, thanks so much for coming in and telling us
about it.
Is there anything else youwanted to cover and talk about?
Maybe your your work now orsome of the fisheries work
you've done in the past?
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah, oh boy, that's a whole other episode.
Yeah, talking about the historyof fisheries in the Gulf of
Mexico.
That would be a fun one.
We were talking about this,this book, the Gulf that you've
got here, and that's.
That's a phenomenal book toteach the history of the Gulf,
both the natural history as wellas, you know, the human history
(33:49):
throughout the evolution.
But, yeah, I mean fisheries.
Let's, let's set a date andyeah, for sure.
That on another time I wouldlove to.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Well cool, seth.
Thank you so much for coming inand talking about Yopon.
It grows right here in ourbackyard has a fascinating
history.
One of the first accounts offirst written accounts by
Europeans was from Cabeza deVaca, who ship right here along
the Texas coast in 1528, whichis pretty insane.
I mean to think about how farback that history goes and how
(34:20):
it all ties back to Galvestonand the Texas coast.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some fascinatinghistory here.
Yeah, man Well appreciate it.
Thanks Time today.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Appreciate it, man.
Thanks, all right.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Awesome, you liked it , huh that was good, thank you.
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