June 21, 2023 • 53 mins
📍Visit our interactive map!
Enjoy this content? Buy me a book! 📚
📱Social and other ways to explore Texas History
This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library Conversation series where J.R. Shaw sat down with historians to talk about some interesting historical events and people in Galveston and Texas history. Thanks to the Rosenberg Library for allowing Galveston Unscripted to hold live podcast conversations in the library. This conversation series was such a great experience and we captured some awesome interviews.
We sit down with Mrs. Tommie Boudreaux and Mrs. Alice Gatson, two amazing Galvestonians and authors who have coauthored "Lost Restaurants of Galveston's African American Community" and "African Americans of Galveston". We cover growing up in Galveston, integration, lost restaurants of the Galveston community, and much, much more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tommie Boudreaux (00:00):
I consider myself a lifelong learner.
I'm learning things exactly allthe time about Galveston, not
just Galveston's, AfricanAmerican history.
I would say.
Galveston, Texas built Texas.
Alice Gatson (00:14):
I want the young people to know, You need to know
what happened.
Tommie Boudreaux (00:20):
He found this skull, and of course he called
the police.
They investigated this when theyrealized it was a cemetery.
they would have, The social houron the weekend.
Mm-hmm.
Selling bootleg whiskey.
J.R. (00:33):
Welcome to Galveston Unscripted.
This episode comes from theRosenberg Library Conversation
series where I sat down with afew historians to talk about
some extremely interestinghistorical facts about Galveston
and Texas history.
I would like to personally thankthe Rosenberg Library for
allowing Galveston Unscripted tohold live podcast conversations
(00:55):
in the library.
This conversation series wassuch a great experience and I
really look forward to pickingit up again in the fall of 2023.
And a very huge thank you to ourguests.
This episode with Miss AliceGatson and Miss Tommy Boudreaux
is about an hour long, but trustme, you are gonna wanna stick
around for the entire.
Thing.
(01:15):
We discuss different aspects ofGalveston's lost
African-American restaurants andsome fascinating
African-Americans in theGalveston community over the
past 100 years.
J.R. (2) (01:27):
If this is your first time listening to Galveston
Unscripted, be sure to subscribeto the podcast.
If you've listened or watchedbefore and you enjoy the content
we are putting out in audio andvideo, please make sure to like,
subscribe and review thepodcast.
Leave us a review, leave us arating.
It really helps other peoplefind what we are doing here at
(01:47):
Galveston Unscripted.
Your rating and review helpsother people find Galveston
Unscripted and discover theamazing history of our little
island.
And be sure to follow us onFacebook, Instagram, TikTok, all
those social media platforms.
J.R. (02:01):
without further ado, let's hop into this episode with Ms.
Alice Gatson And Ms.
Tommy Boudreaux.
J.R. (2) (02:08):
I just wanna start and say it is an absolute honor to
be here at the RosenbergLibrary.
To be sitting down and, andtalking to authors and
historians.
For those who don't know me, I'mpretty sure I know everyone here
in the room right now, but myname is JR.
And I started a podcast back in2021, uh, during covid in my
closet, um, for a nice littlesoundproof atmosphere and just
(02:31):
wanted to tell the story ofGalveston.
And that's all I really wantedto do.
And it has grown into, um, whereeach episode's getting, you
know, Thousands of downloads andpeople are listening from all
over the United States.
I'm just really happy to be ableto sit down at the Rosenberg in
front of a live audience andreally, um, share, uh, what,
(02:53):
what we all love about Galvestonand really pinpoint what makes
Galveston Galveston.
So we're getting started withonly half of our, our guest, uh,
lineup tonight.
But let's just go ahead and, andhop right in here.
So I'm gonna go ahead and givethe intro for both Tommie and
Alice.
Um, because you guys have a lotof similarities.
Um, so Tommie and Alice, TommieBoudreau and Alice Gatson are
(03:17):
both Boi and graduates of theHistoric Central High School.
They both serve on the Galvestonhistorical Foundation's.
African American HeritageCommittee, Allison Tommie, both
serve on the board of directorsfor the old Central Cultural
Center.
Um, they are co-authors ofAfrican Americans of Galveston
(03:39):
and lost restaurants ofGalveston's African-American
community.
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, thankyou for joining me.
So all my questions kind of goout the window.
Yeah, all my questions kind ofgo out the window since it's
just Alice and I now.
But hey, um, We sat down at MODa few weeks ago and we had a
wonderful conversation.
I think we were, we were slatedfor like 45 minutes.
(04:01):
They were, we were there for twohours and it was just a blast.
Um, I'm gonna skip to the verylast question I have here, the
last topic I have.
Um, and just kind of talk aboutyour upbringing in Galveston.
What was it like growing uphere, uh, on the island when you
were young?
What was it like for yourparents?
Alice Gatson (04:18):
Well, my parents, uh, my parents were workers.
My mom worked for, um, GISD, butlet me just back up.
My mom, um, my dad worked, mymom took care of the family
until we were able to go toschool.
Then she started working, butshe worked for G.I.S.D.
She was in the cafeteria and sheworked her way up to cafeteria
(04:43):
manager.
My dad did construction inGalveston.
He worked for one of theconstruction companies and
wanting to better and make moremoney.
He joined, uh, uh, wharf.
He was a longshoreman on thewall.
So, um, there's, I have a sisterRosa and, uh, we think we grew
(05:06):
up pretty good.
Our neighborhood, we were, wehad a mixed neighborhood, I
would say.
Um, on the corner we, well, onthe corner was a corner grocery
store.
And there was an Italian family.
They had a daughter, and she wasthe same age as probably Rosa
(05:26):
and me.
Rosa and I are a year and sixmonths apart.
Mm-hmm.
So we grew up in a, um, mixedneighborhood across the street
that was, um, a white family.
And we all looked out for eachother.
We all played with the, the,with everybody.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in our block.
(05:47):
And so that was.
That was our community.
Our little block.
Yeah.
Okay.
You had another block.
And we looked at them.
That was their little community.
Mm-hmm.
And so you kind of had yourlittle community versus their
little community.
And we just had fun.
Awesome.
We, it was, it was a close.
We had close community,
J.R. (06:07):
ladies and gentlemen, Tommie Boudreau.
Tommie Boudreaux (06:10):
We lived
Alice Gatson (06:11):
at, uh, 36 22 Avenue N LA Morgan is sitting
where?
Our house used to be, it's 36 10Avenue N.
We moved from there because ofLa Morgan to 36, 10 Avenue M.
we, we, it was pretty good.
I, I enjoyed my being a littlegirl in Galveston.
(06:33):
I enjoyed it.
I, I don't know if it was theinnocence or what, but we didn't
have a lot.
But it's, we didn't knowanything about not having a lot
or having a, having a lot orhaving nothing.
We were content, our parents,whatever they said, we knew they
were looking out and it was forour benefit.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
(06:53):
It's supper time.
You better have yourself at thehouse ready to eat and you
better not drink water fromsomebody else's house cuz you
got water at your house.
So come on to the house and getyour water at your house.
You don't go and it's okay to goand play and you know, with
which we, our little friends.
(07:15):
You know what I always say?
We had a little gang.
I told you our littleneighborhood stuck together and
then the next block, it wastheir little neighborhood.
So we kind of, we had ourlittle, a little, you know, you
could come in and play with us,but it only if our little
neighborhood wanted you to comein.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, that was just ourlittle group.
(07:36):
We had fun though.
We had a fun little, littlething going on.
We enjoyed it.
Yeah.
J.R. (07:43):
So Tommie, I've, uh, done an intro.
Um, I did a little rundown of anintro and opened up with what
was it like for you growing upin
Alice Gatson (07:51):
Galveston?
Tommie Boudreaux (07:54):
Growing up in Galveston?
Um, I really enjoyed myself.
We did a lot of family things inthe family was together.
We, um, you know, had all ourmeals together.
We.
Celebrated together.
Coming up.
Um, growing up.
Um, My parents couldn't affordto give birthday parties, but we
(08:16):
knew all a special day we weregoing to get our special dessert
and nobody could touch it untilthe birthday person was ready.
Um, um, we had, um, my motherwould make on special days she
would make, um, ice cream andshe used the old.
Ones that you have to turn.
(08:36):
And my father was the last oneto turn it because it was
getting really hard.
Um, she taught us out how tocook.
We were cooking, I guess, whenwe were 10, 11, 12 years old.
But we were a pretty tightknitfamily because my father's, um,
(08:57):
mother moved to Galveston.
She didn't live with us, but hisbrothers moved to Galveston and
it was just, A big familygathering all the time.
Um, the church that we attended,we had attended her church for a
while on Avenue K, and therewere a lot of kids in the
neighborhood, uh, the families.
(09:18):
One difference then when welived in the East End, um, we
were a very diverse community.
While we didn't.
Socialize.
Anybody who was ill or motherhad a baby, there was somebody
there was gonna bring somethingto help'em out.
(09:40):
They would donate clothes if youwere sick.
If you were ill, they were, youcould guarantee you were gonna
get a pot of something fromsomebody.
Uh, so that was the way itworked.
We had, I think that the timeuntil I was about 12 years old
living on Tenth and K, my.
Our family and another family.
(10:01):
Were the only black family onthe block, but we all got along
real well, so.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the things that Iremember, I, um, the young girl
starting to school, my motherwould always, um, we rode the
bus city, the city bus.
My mother would always have acard for us with our address and
everything on it.
(10:22):
And I can remember when.
She walked, me and my sister toschool one day to the bus stop.
One day she told the bus driverwhere we needed to get off and
he said, don't worry about it.
I'll take care of him.
And he actually seated us behindhim so we didn't have to go to
the back of the bus.
And as long as that drug, uh,bus driver was on duty, we sat
(10:47):
next to him.
Got a lot of eyes looking at us,but we were a big family,
family.
Yeah.
Alice Gatson (10:53):
How was,
J.R. (10:54):
uh, school, I guess before we get into the restaurants and,
and things like that, how wasschool growing growing up
Alice Gatson (11:00):
for both of you?
Uh, school was fun for me.
Mm-hmm.
I enjoyed it.
Um, I, I can remember myfavorite teacher was Ms.
Green in the second grade.
Um, and my sister was inkindergarten, I think.
But we would walk to schoolbecause.
(11:20):
Um, we were a block from GeorgeW.
Carver Elementary School, andthat's where I went to
elementary school and my motherwas working there.
So my mom would leave out forseven o'clock to be at work for
seven o'clock and when she leftout, she left breakfast and
everything.
All we had to do was eatbreakfast, put your clothes on
and get ready to walk that blockto school.
(11:42):
So, um, we would do that everyday.
And my, uh, my sister's littlekindergarten teacher.
Who's Mrs.
Deson would look out and makesure that, you know, we got to
school and she would go in,turn, go and let Mom know we
made it to school on time.
But I, I enjoyed, especially myelementary school, you know, I
(12:03):
enjoyed that.
I also enjoyed my central highschool days.
I was in band and our band wasfun.
I enjoyed it Band.
Yeah.
Tommie Boudreaux (12:15):
How about you, Tommie?
In school?
Our teacher, cause I think she,you went to Booker T.
You, you went to Carver.
George w The Carver and Iattended Booker t Washington.
Booker t Washington was on theeast end and Carver was more the
west end.
West end about the middle oftown.
But the, the teachers werealmost like your parent, second
parent.
(12:35):
Mm-hmm.
They expected the most of you.
Uh, they would.
Share information, not just gowith the classroom.
They would expect the youngladies to act like young ladies.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, they expect the young men tobe young men.
They would make sure that wewould dress correctly.
(12:58):
If you were not dress correctly,then they either found some
clothes for you to wear oreither contact your parent and
say they're not appropriatelydressed, but.
I, I, my favorite teacher wasMs.
Strode, my kindergarten teacher.
Well, I had several favoritesin, yeah, I just loved
kindergarten because I loved thestory time and the snack time
(13:22):
when we would have grahamcrackers and cook and milk.
So, uh, that was fun.
Um, Ms.
Adams, several of them, but theywere more of.
I guess just they were the, theconsultant, the therapist, the
teacher and everything.
So yeah.
The ability, yeah.
Yeah.
(13:42):
And, and all teachers, I mean,no matter whether you were in
the one teacher's class, everyteacher was, was checking on
you.
They knew your name, they knewthe parents.
They would actually contactparents.
They would visit parents, so, so
Alice Gatson (13:56):
you wanted to be.
On your best behavior?
Yes.
Oh yes.
Because parents, mom was gonnaknow it by the end of Yes.
The end of the day.
Mm-hmm.
So you, you need to be on yourbest behavior.
Tommie Boudreaux (14:07):
And they really expected the best of us.
In fact, we had teachers to tellus we had to be better.
Mm-hmm.
We had to be right.
Had to be better.
And I realized how much theywere.
Um, preparing us is when I wentoff to college, um, I remember
our science teacher.
(14:28):
Oh gosh, I thought he was ahorrible teacher.
I used to cry in his class, buthe taught us chemistry and, uh,
he actually didn't teach muchfrom the classroom book.
He had his own notes and he.
Taught us Mr.
Mr.
Dansby.
I knew that's who it was.
Mr.
Danby, Mr.
Hall, Dansby.
(14:48):
And when I went off to college,I was sitting in classes, in
chemistry classes, and thosestudents were actually lost.
I, I knew it.
The same thing in, in math, andall the other courses, many of
them taught from notes that theyhad.
I really think they wereteaching from their college
notes.
But, uh, they had us prepare forschool.
(15:09):
And
Alice Gatson (15:09):
I'll tell you, Hall Dansby.
You know, going into his classin the beginning of the school
year, I was, I mean, I wasreally afraid of him.
But once you got in there, youunderstood what he was trying to
do
J.R. (15:23):
for you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pushing, pushing you to bebetter.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So, wanna transition over to,um, one of your books and maybe
just a brief overview and thenwe'll hop into the lost
restaurants.
So, um, the.
One that you both co-authoredfirst African Americans of
Galveston.
Mm-hmm.
So I wanted to see, and, andhear you guys elaborate on, you
(15:47):
know, uh, Galveston had some ofthe first African American
churches and institutions priorto emancipation.
Mm-hmm.
And post emancipation, Galvestonseemed to be this magnet for
African Americans.
Um, why was Galveston sodifferent pre emancipation and
post emancipation?
Tommie Boudreaux (16:09):
Well, one, and, and they say the people
there, the enslaved paper peoplethere, they were still held in
bondage and couldn't really livetheir own lives.
But I think it was the workforcethat made it different.
Mm-hmm.
(16:29):
Galveston didn't haveplantations.
Yeah.
Right.
Most of the African-Americans orthe enslaved people were
domestic servants.
Um, they, they worked on thewharf, they worked on in houses.
They were nannies.
They, they did those type ofjobs, but however, You know,
they were on, they had to beready 24 hours a day, so they
(16:53):
never knew when somebody wasgonna ask them to do something.
So that was one of the majordifference.
And people said that Galvestonenslaved people had it easier,
but it wasn't because they stilldid not, were not able to live
their own lives.
But there were times when, um,We had plantations surrounding
(17:15):
Galveston that sometimes theirmasters would hire them out to
work on those plantations whentheir friend needed some extra
help.
But otherwise, it was the workthat they did in Galveston to
make Galveston very, verywealthy.
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (17:33):
So post emancipation, post juneteenth after 1865, um, you
know, when we sat down a fewweeks ago, we kind of discussed,
um, A little bit about Galvestonbeing this magnet for African
American people to move to, andyou, you definitely see that
highlighted in the lostrestaurants of Galveston, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, what was it about Galvestonthat brought so many African
(17:57):
Americans from all over thecountry?
It was
Alice Gatson (17:58):
different.
Now.
Most of, not all, but most ofthe, the, um, people coming into
Galveston did come offplantations from Brazoria
County, Matagorda County.
And from Louisiana, most of themcame off of plantation.
So moving, they were looking forbetter and Galveston could offer
(18:20):
them better.
A a lot of times in Galveston,uh, might have had slaves, but
the slaves were taught differentskills.
Mm-hmm.
Other than working in the house.
Mm-hmm.
You know that we had brick,brick
Tommie Boudreaux (18:36):
masons.
Brick layers.
Yeah.
Masons.
Alice Gatson (18:38):
Iron workers.
Iron workers.
Yeah.
You know, they, we had it goingon and they kind of saw an
opportunity.
Now if you come up to lostrestaurants, a lot of these, um,
Lot of the African Americansfrom Matagorda and Brazoia
County that they had thebarbecue pits.
Mm-hmm.
(18:58):
They, you know, they broughttheir cooking skills to
Galveston and which was anopportunity to, a business
opportunity.
They could start business and,you know, things like they
hadn't been able to do, havetheir own business or whatever
back, uh, at home.
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (19:17):
So, So, you know, we kind of touched on this a little
earlier, so does any othercommunity have a book written
about their lost AfricanAmerican restaurants or lost
restaurants?
Um, do you guys, have you guysever heard of another one?
Tommie Boudreaux (19:32):
I don't know if any book, uh, written about
lost restaurants.
We, there are a lot of booksthat are, see this book
originally was supposed to be acookbook.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, it was Dr.
Dwayne Jones after we hadcompleted the first book.
He came to the committee abouttwo or three years later and
(19:56):
said, why don't you guys do acookbook and you want to find
recipes handed down over thegenerations and all these.
Restaurants that people havetalked so much about, get their
recipes and so on.
Well, when we finally startworking on it, we realized that
all of those people were gone.
(20:16):
And many of them, if the familymembers knew them, they didn't
write down recipes.
So nobody really knew how toprepare the food.
But as we spoke with differentpeople who had, may have been
waiters, most of'em were in upin age or um, Um, bus boys or,
um, or something like that, theywould tell us the story about
(20:40):
the person, and that's whatreally interests us.
Mm-hmm.
Their, where they, as she said,they, their families came from
the, the cotton field and sugarcane, uh, cities, and came to
Galveston to improve their livesand how they did it.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, It's, it was, it wasjust that way.
(21:02):
And we decided that thosestories were so interesting.
We needed to tell more than justabout the cooking.
J.R. (21:11):
And if you get, if y'all don't have this book, you
definitely need to buy it orcheck it out from the library
and keep it in your kitchenbecause there are some amazing,
amazing recipes in there.
That is for sure.
Okay, so, um, so what were someof the first.
Were the reasons some of theserestaurants were popping up in
(21:33):
locations.
Um, were they mainly near theport catering to workers or
laborers, or were they justgeneral restaurants for anybody?
Uh, a lot of them
Alice Gatson (21:42):
were catering to the walls.
Uh, um, they were like cafes, soto speak, so they had quick hot
lunches or supper, you know, forthe longshoreman.
I, I know for sure for thelongshoreman that's what it was.
But on Sundays also, It was anouting for families.
The, you know, good after churchyou'd go, the family would go
(22:05):
and, and not so much.
It is the difference from now,this is what African Americans
had, these were our places to goto.
So families would get togetherat the church or, or have their
weddings at these places becausethat's where we could go and
that's what we
Tommie Boudreaux (22:25):
could do.
You know, also they were ableto, um, most of them, you know,
were not in the heart ofGalveston, right?
So they were able to buyproperty in the areas that other
people didn't want, want uhhuh.
So you'll find that me have fiverestaurants on the same block.
(22:47):
Mm-hmm.
Across the street.
Down the street.
Some of them may be, may havetwo or three barbecue places.
Within a two block radius.
Uh, and so they took thatopportunity to use the skills
that they'd learned.
Excuse me.
You have to remember that.
(23:10):
Excuse me.
The enslaved people, um, weretheir meals was what their
owners didn't want.
One of the hottest meal, um, oneof the hottest entrees now is
oxtails.
Mm-hmm.
Everybody, you know, they wantoxtails.
(23:32):
They like to go to soul foodPlace for Oxtails.
Well, their owners didn't eatthe oxtail.
Mm-hmm.
Um, now I can remember eatingthings that some of you probably
wouldn't even think about.
Calf brains They would actually,um, add eggs and scramble'em up.
Um, kidney, kidneys, tongue Iunderstand tongue is a delicacy
(23:54):
now.
Yeah, it is in some restaurants.
So, and they, I guess I'massuming they probably found
wild herbs to season thesethings.
Oh yeah.
So the people who came toGalveston brought those skills
that had learned from theirparents, grandparents, and
ancestors, and they'd use thatas a means of making money.
(24:15):
And the thing about thoserestaurants, they were open to
everybody.
So, which meant if someone heardabout it, no matter who you are,
if you were there to buysomething, if they didn't have
it, have it, they would try tofind a way to make it.
What was said, uh, saying aboutthe money?
Oh yeah.
(24:35):
There was one that, this is nota Galveston man, but he had a
restaurant in, um, I thinkBeaumont and, uh, it was back
in.
The twenties, the thirties, andhe had, um, he had one door for
whites and one door for blacks,but for some reason his door for
whites was in the front and forblacks in the back, and some of
(24:57):
his patrons complained.
And he said he wasn't concernedabout who opened the doors and
came in because on Mondaymorning, the green stuff went to
the bank.
So he just, and that was the wayit was.
They, they, they took on anytype of job they could to help
themselves and were verycreative in the foods that they
(25:20):
prepared.
J.R. (25:22):
Um, it's, yeah, it's good to hear you say, you know, it's,
it's nice to hear you say thatthe, all the money's green
doesn't matter.
I mean, that's how kind of itwas viewed.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, was it common for, youknow, um, a, a white person to
walk down and go eat at the.
Yes.
And some of these black ownedrestaurants.
Yes.
You know, where, you know, youcouldn't have black people walk
over to the white ownedrestaurants,
Alice Gatson (25:42):
right?
Yes.
It was
Tommie Boudreaux (25:43):
common.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, oh yes.
Because now I don't, I don'tremember ever actually having
dining in a restaurant, but myfather would sometime take us
when he would purchase food togo.
And you would see as many whitepeople in there as you saw
black.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think, uh, is it Cherry?
(26:04):
I think his name please.
Yeah.
Bill Cherry.
Bill Cherry.
Bill.
Cherry.
Cherry.
We talk about all the differentrestaurants they go to.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it, it was, it was, itdidn't matter who walked in.
Um, they worked and they also,many of them were open 24 hours.
Uh, they would have, um, Thesocial hour on the weekend.
(26:28):
Mm-hmm.
Selling bootleg whiskey.
Many of'em didn't have permitsto do that, but in the wee hours
of the night when someone washaving a party there, if they
ran out, they could pullsomething, a Johnny Walker
bottle from under the shelf andsell it to them.
So they found different ways tomake sure that they make money.
Uh, Mr.
(26:48):
Oliver, I know that, um, threegenerations in that book, you
see that.
I got a chance to speak with hisgrandson and, uh, and his son
before both of'em had passed nowand said he remembers working
there.
And that was the way it was onweekends.
You know, people would comethere and party all night long,
(27:09):
but as long as they were buyingthe barbecue, the food, they
kept going and he supplied themwith the extra spirit that they
needed.
J.R. (27:18):
Um, so it just reminded me, um, For those listening or
watching, uh, they don't knowwhat the Green Book is.
Could one of you tell us whatthe Green Book is and why it was
Alice Gatson (27:28):
significant?
Well, I'll let Tommie take over,but the, the Green Book, the
green book was uh, uh, a list.
It was a book that was puttogether for African Americans
because when you travel, wedidn't have, uh, hotels to stay
in or places to eat.
(27:49):
So the Green Book was acollection of, as you travel in
the south, especially therewere, uh, restaurants that were
safe for you to stop and eat oreven get gas to get gas or
hotel, you know, lodging.
So, Tommie probably can expoundjust a little more on there,
Tommie Boudreaux (28:12):
but, well, and, and basically that's what
he, it was, um, I can't rememberhis first name, but I know his
last name was Green.
Green.
His last name is Green.
Green.
He was a postman.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, he delivered, you know,mail in different areas and so
on.
He was run into AfricanAmericans who were in New York,
where could they stay?
And he would try to give'emdirection to where they could
(28:34):
go.
So he realized then that, youknow, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll publish a book.
And that's what he did.
He contacted, you know,different people that he knew in
various states and so on, andasked them about.
Now there were a few, um,places.
In fact, we, we had, um, acouple to come and tell us about
(28:56):
the Green Book.
When they discovered it, theydecided that they were just, Get
a, a van and just travel andvisit some of them.
Um, and what they would do isthat as people would hear this
information, a safe place wherethey could get gas or safe place
where they could stay, then thatwas entered into the book.
(29:19):
Galveston had several.
Mm-hmm.
Um, one of them, I know TDArmstrong.
Armstrong had one Gus Allen hadone.
We had people who opened theirhomes for the people, uh, Mrs.
Pope and, uh, Ms.
Freeman home was open to people.
Ms.
Pope
Alice Gatson (29:35):
was one of the, she was one of the, Main one.
She
Tommie Boudreaux (29:38):
stayed open a good while too.
Yeah.
And then there's one, what isthe one that's an antique there?
That's the building is stillstanding.
Mm-hmm.
Only under hotel.
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yes.
Uh, yes.
It's still standing.
It's an, and when I understandthat they had like, um, uh, they
had an area for the people.
Who wanted to, had need to placethe rest, but they also had the
(30:03):
Ladies of the Night in anothersection.
So, um, I guess that's whateverything you need, I guess,
why the built everything youneeded.
So.
Absolutely.
But Galveston at one time was anopen town.
I mean, we were a little LasVegas.
We have all kind of names, SinCity, all those kind of things.
But, uh, we've, we've survived.
But the Green Book was helpful,uh, for those who, who did
(30:26):
travel.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I never, and then, cuz youhad, you had sundown cities.
Yes.
There were sundown cities whereyou weren't supposed to be
caught on the road after dark.
And some people did have someproblems with that.
Um, I can remember my, my dad, Inever did understand why he did
(30:47):
that, but when he would take usto visit our grandmother in
Mexia, Texas.
We would start out early in themorning.
He made sure that his gas wastopped off and he actually had a
container with gas, which wouldbe dangerous now.
And my mother would fry chickenand food and stuff, and he would
drive all the way straight to myhair without stopping.
(31:08):
Well, let's say there was somestops in wooded areas.
Oh, I'll, I'll say that.
Um, but you know, I understandnow why he, he did that.
He did that.
You know, because we will beasking, you know, can we get out
and walk and play?
No, you couldn't because youjust could not travel through
the United States safely.
(31:28):
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (31:30):
So definitely wanted to hammer on something a little
bit, a little bit of atransition here.
You know, reading lostrestaurants at Galveston, even
just flipping through, ifanyone's picked this up and
flipped through and they, andthey start reading where most of
these entrepreneurs andrestaurant owners are from you,
you start wondering what's goingon with Louisiana and why is
half the state of Louisianamoving to Galveston?
So, wow.
(31:50):
Was Albert Feas, Gus Allen, TDArmstrong?
Mm-hmm.
All of them from Louisiana.
So it's, Just one of thosethings, opportunities picked
Alice Gatson (31:57):
up on of opportunity.
Tommie Boudreaux (31:58):
It was an opportunity.
They just didn't have theopportunities in, in Louisiana
that they had in Galveston.
And the, the, the, thewaterfront really drew a lot of
them.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because, um, Galveston, youknow, let's face it, we know
that many of the, um, the, uh,free people left and so they
(32:18):
needed the workforce.
So that's why when they heardthat there was work there where
they would actually get paid,then um, they, they came to
Galveston and some of them, youknow, when they brought, they
brought the family, brought theentire family.
So you may not have the grandmaand everybody family.
You may not have an uncle whocan, can work on the wharf, but
(32:41):
he knew how to cook.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
J.R. (32:45):
Okay.
So I definitely wanna leave timefor questions, um, here in a
little bit.
So we have about five moreminutes.
Um, so this is one thing Idefinitely wanted to ask you.
People have moved away.
Buildings have been torn down,but so many lives were affected
by these entrepreneurs andestablishments.
They were places that spurredconversations, business plans,
(33:06):
places to rest, and enjoy a goodmeal.
Why is it important to continueto remember these lost
restaurants and stories from ourcommunity?
Tommie Boudreaux (33:18):
I guess I, I just wanted to say one word.
They were survivors.
They found a way to survive, andif it was through cooking or
whatever they did, they weresurvivors.
Let's, you know, afteremancipation.
They were still in bondage.
(33:38):
You know, you had the blackcodes, you had all these laws
that were a pass to, let's sayTo maintain their status as a
second last class citizen.
And even though, you know, wehad early churches, we had early
school, you still were notaccepted, but you found a way to
(34:03):
survive.
So I don't know if you wannaanswer Well, my thoughts about
Alice Gatson (34:07):
that.
Um, I think we should, we shouldmake sure that the young folks
know what's going on.
Know that, uh, there areobstacles and how these people
overcame the obstacles that theyfaced.
Um, they should know that there,they, that really, they harder,
(34:32):
they had a harder challenge thanwe probably would have today,
but there was a challenge andthey had to get.
They had to learn how to getover it.
And if they know what happenedand they see what the past,
they'll know how to go forwardand what I need to do if they
did it during those times,surely I can do better than
(34:55):
that.
And that's my thoughts about
Tommie Boudreaux (34:57):
it.
Because they have moreopportunities now.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And when their, um, ancestorssurvived a little of nothing.
There was always food on thetable.
Mm-hmm.
They kept a roof over the, onthe, over their heads.
Um, and, and the thing is, it'sso many things they, they
(35:18):
learned to do.
Um, my mother could take'em ahand.
And make three meals out of it.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you may have had baked,you had some dumplings.
You had you, that was a way todo it.
That's right.
Stretch it.
Many meals were not, we didn'thave meat.
(35:38):
Um mm-hmm.
But she would cook a big pot ofbeans.
Beans.
That's right.
Monday was bean day anyway.
And cornbread.
And you were full.
And then that was the thing is,and even on those special days
when she.
When we were able to have likeshrimp, you know, we were
limited to how many shrimp wecould have, but you had to eat
(35:59):
everything else on your plate.
Mm-hmm.
So, and when you did, you wereokay.
Yeah.
J.R. (36:05):
So, while putting together some of these stories for lost
restaurants, what were some ofyour favorite stories or
favorite locations or, man, Iwish I could have eaten there,
or I wish I could have gonethere and eaten.
Tommie Boudreaux (36:18):
For me, it wasn't so much eating there,
there were so many people that Iwish I had been able to sit and
talk to mm-hmm.
To speak with them.
And my favorite one was, um,well I had several favorites,
but, um, Murray CourtneyMurraywho had top cafe.
He didn't know anything aboutcooking, couldn't cook according
(36:40):
to his granddaughter.
You wouldn't wanna touch any,the food he prepared, but he
hired.
People who could do the job, buthe became very involved in the
community.
He was the place that was theplace to find out what was going
on locally, um, statewide andnationally, he sold, um, income
(37:00):
tax.
Sometimes he paid a person'smoney so they could vote.
Um, but the other thing that hedid is that he became a promoter
and he brought in.
Some of the bestAfrican-American talented talent
in the in, in the United States.
Count Basey, cap Calloway, um,Sarah Vaughn, Nat King Cole, all
(37:24):
of those people performed righthere in Galveston.
He brought them here.
He also provided entertainmentfor the military, and he was
giving them discounts before it,quote unquote, became popular.
Uh, But he was a, a wonderfulman and, um, and so sad that,
um, in the sixties, um, the cityof Galveston acquired his
(37:47):
property.
His granddaughter said they didcompensate him, but he didn't
wanna start all over again.
He also helped the people on thejob.
Some of them he knew.
He wanted them have additional,he paid for little training
courses for them.
Um, and when he was 88 yearsold, he took on a job, part-time
job, working for one of thegovernment workforce, uh,
(38:12):
programs.
Someone asked him why was hestill working?
He said he just enjoy helpingpeople.
So he's one of my favorites.
Alice Gatson (38:21):
One of my favorite was, uh, Wade Watkins, and he
was a chef.
The head chef, one of the headchefs at Gaidos.
And, uh, his story wasinteresting as to how he came
from San Antonio to Galveston,where the, and he was in the
restaurant industry.
So he saw an opportunity hereand he, it goes, history goes
(38:44):
back to the old Buccaneer Hoteland his roots, you know, and
coming to Gaidos where he.
Was given an opportunity and hetook advantage of it and did
what he could do.
He was sent to, um, Frenchcooking schools by the Gatos,
and they thought a lot of him,and he was loyal to his job and
(39:07):
he did what he could do to helppromote them.
So that was a good, I enjoyed,you know, the research on that.
I also just enjoyed a fun onewas, um, there's a picture back
there.
Sydney's drive-in one of the.
Uh, the drive-ins of the time,and I do, I never got a chance
to go, but I always wanted, as alittle girl, we'd pass by, go to
(39:30):
the post office because theywere close to the post office.
But in the daytime we might,daddy might drive us to the post
office, but I look over there atthe drive-in and the car hops
and the cars out there, and onSundays people would go meet,
meet up there.
But what I'm thinking about,After the football games.
(39:51):
Now I got a chance the littlegirl daddy would take us to the
football games.
But the, you know, just theidea.
I wish I could have gone cuzthey talk about, oh, they had a
good time at Sydney's Drive-inand I want it to be in that good
time.
Yeah.
J.R. (40:07):
And we've got a photo of Sydney's Drive-in back there so
we can all check it out.
Um, on whenever you guys takeoff.
Um, okay.
So we are kind of running outout of a little bit of time
here, so I'm sorry I did.
No, you're fine.
Mm-hmm.
I did promise give you a littleopportunity to talk a little bit
about Rosewood, uh, cemetery andkind of what's going on there.
(40:27):
And then believe the proceeds tothe, this book goes to Rosewood,
is that correct?
Yes.
Yes.
Both books?
Both.
Both books?
Yeah.
Both books.
So could you tell us for peoplelistening and um, watching.
Who may not know anything aboutRosewood Cemetery.
Could you just give us therundown of what's going on over
Alice Gatson (40:43):
there?
Tommie Boudreaux (40:44):
Rosewood uh, cemetery was founded by a group
of African Americans who decidedthat, um, African Americans
needed a, a, a, um, a decent, aproper burial site.
And so in 1911, a group met atWesley Tabernacle Methodist
(41:07):
Church.
And form the Rosewood CemeteryAssociation.
I think they all paid about$25.
Um, and they purchased, I don'tknow what I guess they did at
the fundraising too, but theypurchased the land on the far
west end.
That was didn't have a seawallanything at the time from, uh,
(41:29):
the Joe Levy family.
And the land actually extended.
To where the seawall is, to backwhere, as far as where Randall's
is now.
Uh, so it was going all the wayto Broadway, up to 61st Street.
Um, it was a large plot in themiddle of it.
That's where they decided tohave the cemetery.
(41:53):
The first was in 1912.
It was, it was a child, the lastbarrier, uh, I think his name
was Boyd.
I can't remember his name wasBoyd 1944.
But I think with one of thestorms, um, a lot of things were
damaged.
(42:13):
Then some of the AfricanAmericans found that, you know,
it was a little distanced to gothat far for burial.
So around 1944 it really didn'texist anymore.
And, um, Well, they weren'tbearing of people there anymore.
And as the, the associatespassed on, other people had, uh,
(42:38):
became the owners the last oneto own, it was Thomas D.
Armstrong, and it was discoveredby someone.
Was a neglected area.
All the trees.
In fact, I think Jamie Durhamtold us that that was a, a
homeless person was finding a,a, place to to, mm-hmm.
I guess to rest.
(42:59):
He found this skull, and ofcourse he called the police.
They investigated this when theyrealized it was a cemetery.
So for years it was just sittingthere and apparently some of the
Galveston city citizens realizedit was there and they went out
and cleaned it up not knowing itwas private property.
(43:20):
Uh, TD Armstrong, when TDArmstrong passed, his family
sold the estate so thisdeveloper had the cemetery.
So when they went out, they,this group went out and cleaned
it and realized later on theywere told they were on private
property.
Well, by then we had the AfricanAmerican Heritage Committee, and
(43:40):
that's when they came to thecommittee and said, you know, we
need to find a way to save thatcemetery.
So that's how it all started.
And finally, with a little, tooka little time, but donated the
cemetery to Galveston HistoricalFoundation.
So we had cleanup days.
Um, the first time I saw it, Imean, that was sometimes even
(44:03):
after this group had cleaned it.
I mean, the weeds were so highuntil they were like trees.
And, um, could you explain whereit
Alice Gatson (44:09):
is?
Uh, it's, it's kind
Tommie Boudreaux (44:10):
of, it's one in a weird spot.
It is.
It's off of 61st street.
It's on 63rd Street.
Mm-hmm.
And I, the best way I candescribe you to get there is
that if you know where GoldenCorral is, the restaurant on
Seawall Boulevard.
If you stay in your right lane,you will see the address.
63rd Street you turn right isnow surrounded by motels.
(44:36):
Uh, and we really feel thatsomebody may have inched a
little of that cemetery.
Uh, and so it is, um, wemaintain it.
Uh, Dr.
Jones has worked on grants.
In fact, at one of the boardmeetings, he indicated that he'd
gotten a grant.
We've had a group of graduatestudents from the University of
(44:57):
Texas in San Antonio has come upwith design of.
What they could, what we coulddo so people can at least go out
and visit.
It's difficult to walk aroundbecause you never know when
you're gonna step in a pothole.
And I guess that's where some ofthe areas of, of sunk, we had a
young man working on, um, Iguess it's master's degree from
(45:20):
Texas A&M that actually used thea drone to kind of go over the
cemetery.
And he was able to find imagesthat looked like they may have
been a casket.
Mm-hmm.
So, so we, we'll still workingon it, it's still not, we really
would like for it one day to beon GHF's, um, sacred Places
(45:43):
Tour.
But that's, that's the historyof the, the cemetery.
I didn't know anything about it,hadn't ever heard of it.
And, uh, when we formed the, um,the African American Heritage
Committee, there were peoplethere who were, were aware of it
and told us all about thehistory of
Alice Gatson (46:01):
it.
Mm-hmm.
So
J.R. (46:02):
to support the preservation of that, you can
purchase
Tommie Boudreaux (46:05):
books.
Absolutely.
Right.
We don't get a penny.
So it's there on the grounds as,um, and, and still we rise.
The Galveston Juneteenth storybecause the space is so small
and we weren't able to geteverything we wanted to get in
it.
We are doing a companion bookwith the same title.
(46:25):
Mm-hmm.
And it expands so much more.
Um, people that we are stillfinding they were born and
raised in Galveston did well.
So
J.R. (46:36):
yeah.
Wow.
Okay, so we only have about fiveminutes left.
I'm gonna open it up to Q&A fromour massive audience that we
have.
So, uh, yeah, let's open it up.
Go ahead, Mike.
Malcom (46:46):
I've got one comment, one question.
You had asked about other booksand lost restaurant, other
communities.
There's actually a series thatpublisher does called Lost
Restaurants.
There are others maybe notAfrican-American restaurants
necessarily..
They have published for othercities across the country Now my
question is...
You were talking about wherethere were some restaurants.
Where whites could go to theblack restaurants And it was
(47:06):
very common to see that Ithought What was integration
like?
How did restaurants integrate inGalveston?
Tommie Boudreaux (47:11):
Well, I would say that ours were somewhat
peaceful.
We did have sit-ins, a young mannamed Salton Camps, um, kind of
organized a group to sit in, uh,one of the, was it Kress's?
One of the, the dining areas.
Woolworth, Woolworth Woo.
Woolworth.
It was Woolworth, Woolworth,Uhhuh.
But um, on the corner, well,they really didn't have much of
(47:33):
a problem.
I think they were arrested onetime, but.
Because of people like GusAllen, TD Armstrong, and some of
the other well-knownAfrican-American citizens, they
really didn't do a whole lotwith it.
And I would say that our um,integration.
Um, was complete when theyintegrated the two schools, and
(47:56):
that wasn't a problem either.
And I think one of the reasons Isaid it, because Ball High
inherited our athletic teams,because Central High School was
known not only in sports, but inacademics, academic science and
everything.
Prairieview, uh, college nowUniversity was, uh, the black.
(48:20):
Interscholastic league.
And if you'd go on and look attheir collection, central High
School was the top in almosteverything and did better.
It's the Houston schools and theDallas School.
So integration, wasn't it?
(48:41):
It wasn't, it wasn't anythinglike it happened in other
cities.
Great question.
J.R. (48:48):
That was a good question.
Ruth (48:49):
Do you feel as if the process of writing this book has
sparked more interest or joy.
When you're now cooking some ofthese recipes in the kitchen?
Tommie Boudreaux (48:56):
Oh yeah, I think so.
Well, the thing I was interestedin, in, in just knowing some of
the recipes, you know, I, uh,one of my favorite places to
dine was, um, Clary's andClary's just is so sad, but he
just happened to pass before wecompleted the book.
(49:18):
And, um, some of his recipes arein there and I know what they
taste like.
We have recipes from my mother,in fact, in Alice's mother and,
uh, Ms.
Henderson, uh, Diane Henderson'smother.
And these were recipes that sheoriginally cooked.
(49:39):
Without, um, let's say withoutmeasuring and so on, but she
decided for my youngest signedwedding anniversary, she would
buy the cups and spoons and allthe things she needed and
measured as she, as she preparedit.
And so the recipe is there withall the, the measurements and
(50:02):
quantities and so on.
But, um, I've had friends who'vesaid they've tried a lot of the
recipes.
There aren't a lot in there, butthey've tried them.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And, and one
Alice Gatson (50:12):
that's really interesting is the, uh, honey
Brown barbecue sauce.
No, I don't think anyone knowsthe secret to the sauce or
really the recipe.
That was one galvestonian.
He's not here anymore.
He passed away recently.
But he swore Honey Brown gavehim the recipe and it's nothing
(50:34):
like honey.
I had honey brown's barbecue anda sauce.
It's nothing
Tommie Boudreaux (50:39):
like it.
Well, bill Cherry interviewedhis wife and she said he never
shared, she didn't know what heused, what rub he used on his
meats, and if she didn't know,
Alice Gatson (50:50):
no.
Nobody.
That's
J.R. (50:52):
right.
Mm-hmm.
I really appreciate it.
Tommie.
Alice, this has been awesome.
Thank you for kicking off the,the series at the Rosenberg.
Really, really appreciate it.
Um, any closing
Alice Gatson (51:04):
remarks?
Well, I just hope everyoneenjoyed it and they really got
something out of it.
And, and as I said earlier, Ilove doing this, but, and I love
it because I want the youngpeople to know, You need to know
what happened.
You need to know.
I always say, you need to lookback so you can go forward.
(51:27):
So that's my comment.
Tommie Boudreaux (51:29):
And, and for me, it's as if I'm, I consider
myself a lifelong learner.
I'm learning things exactly allthe time about Galveston, not
just Galveston's, AfricanAmerican history.
Galveston, I would say.
Galveston, Texas built Texas.
(51:51):
Mm-hmm.
There were so many firsts here,and we are so proud that she, I
heard her say when I was comingin, very proud to be a
Galvestonian.
J.R. (52:02):
This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library
Conversation series where I satdown with a few historians to
talk about some extremelyinteresting historical facts
about Galveston and Texashistory.
I would like to personally thankthe Rosenberg Library for
allowing Galveston Unscripted tohold live podcast conversations
in the library.
J.R. (2) (52:23):
If this is your first time listening to Galveston
Unscripted, be sure to subscribeto the podcast.
If you've listened or watchedbefore and you enjoy the content
we are putting out in audio andvideo, please make sure to like,
subscribe and review thepodcast.
Leave us a review, leave us arating.
It really helps other peoplefind what we are doing here at
(52:43):
Galveston Unscripted.
Your rating and review helpsother people find Galveston
Unscripted and discover theamazing history of our little
island.
And be sure to follow us onFacebook, Instagram, TikTok, all
those social media platforms.
Tommie Boudreaux (52:57):
we were a little Las Vegas.
We have all kind of names, SinCity, all those kind of things.
But, we've survived.
I consider myself a lifelong learner.
I'm learning things exactly allthe time about Galveston, not
just Galveston's, AfricanAmerican history.
I would say.
Galveston, Texas built Texas.
Alice Gatson (00:14):
I want the young people to know, You need to know
what happened.
Tommie Boudreaux (00:20):
He found this skull, and of course he called
the police.
They investigated this when theyrealized it was a cemetery.
they would have, The social houron the weekend.
Mm-hmm.
Selling bootleg whiskey.
J.R. (00:33):
Welcome to Galveston Unscripted.
This episode comes from theRosenberg Library Conversation
series where I sat down with afew historians to talk about
some extremely interestinghistorical facts about Galveston
and Texas history.
I would like to personally thankthe Rosenberg Library for
allowing Galveston Unscripted tohold live podcast conversations
(00:55):
in the library.
This conversation series wassuch a great experience and I
really look forward to pickingit up again in the fall of 2023.
And a very huge thank you to ourguests.
This episode with Miss AliceGatson and Miss Tommy Boudreaux
is about an hour long, but trustme, you are gonna wanna stick
around for the entire.
Thing.
(01:15):
We discuss different aspects ofGalveston's lost
African-American restaurants andsome fascinating
African-Americans in theGalveston community over the
past 100 years.
J.R. (2) (01:27):
If this is your first time listening to Galveston
Unscripted, be sure to subscribeto the podcast.
If you've listened or watchedbefore and you enjoy the content
we are putting out in audio andvideo, please make sure to like,
subscribe and review thepodcast.
Leave us a review, leave us arating.
It really helps other peoplefind what we are doing here at
(01:47):
Galveston Unscripted.
Your rating and review helpsother people find Galveston
Unscripted and discover theamazing history of our little
island.
And be sure to follow us onFacebook, Instagram, TikTok, all
those social media platforms.
J.R. (02:01):
without further ado, let's hop into this episode with Ms.
Alice Gatson And Ms.
Tommy Boudreaux.
J.R. (2) (02:08):
I just wanna start and say it is an absolute honor to
be here at the RosenbergLibrary.
To be sitting down and, andtalking to authors and
historians.
For those who don't know me, I'mpretty sure I know everyone here
in the room right now, but myname is JR.
And I started a podcast back in2021, uh, during covid in my
closet, um, for a nice littlesoundproof atmosphere and just
(02:31):
wanted to tell the story ofGalveston.
And that's all I really wantedto do.
And it has grown into, um, whereeach episode's getting, you
know, Thousands of downloads andpeople are listening from all
over the United States.
I'm just really happy to be ableto sit down at the Rosenberg in
front of a live audience andreally, um, share, uh, what,
(02:53):
what we all love about Galvestonand really pinpoint what makes
Galveston Galveston.
So we're getting started withonly half of our, our guest, uh,
lineup tonight.
But let's just go ahead and, andhop right in here.
So I'm gonna go ahead and givethe intro for both Tommie and
Alice.
Um, because you guys have a lotof similarities.
Um, so Tommie and Alice, TommieBoudreau and Alice Gatson are
(03:17):
both Boi and graduates of theHistoric Central High School.
They both serve on the Galvestonhistorical Foundation's.
African American HeritageCommittee, Allison Tommie, both
serve on the board of directorsfor the old Central Cultural
Center.
Um, they are co-authors ofAfrican Americans of Galveston
(03:39):
and lost restaurants ofGalveston's African-American
community.
Uh, ladies and gentlemen, thankyou for joining me.
So all my questions kind of goout the window.
Yeah, all my questions kind ofgo out the window since it's
just Alice and I now.
But hey, um, We sat down at MODa few weeks ago and we had a
wonderful conversation.
I think we were, we were slatedfor like 45 minutes.
(04:01):
They were, we were there for twohours and it was just a blast.
Um, I'm gonna skip to the verylast question I have here, the
last topic I have.
Um, and just kind of talk aboutyour upbringing in Galveston.
What was it like growing uphere, uh, on the island when you
were young?
What was it like for yourparents?
Alice Gatson (04:18):
Well, my parents, uh, my parents were workers.
My mom worked for, um, GISD, butlet me just back up.
My mom, um, my dad worked, mymom took care of the family
until we were able to go toschool.
Then she started working, butshe worked for G.I.S.D.
She was in the cafeteria and sheworked her way up to cafeteria
(04:43):
manager.
My dad did construction inGalveston.
He worked for one of theconstruction companies and
wanting to better and make moremoney.
He joined, uh, uh, wharf.
He was a longshoreman on thewall.
So, um, there's, I have a sisterRosa and, uh, we think we grew
(05:06):
up pretty good.
Our neighborhood, we were, wehad a mixed neighborhood, I
would say.
Um, on the corner we, well, onthe corner was a corner grocery
store.
And there was an Italian family.
They had a daughter, and she wasthe same age as probably Rosa
(05:26):
and me.
Rosa and I are a year and sixmonths apart.
Mm-hmm.
So we grew up in a, um, mixedneighborhood across the street
that was, um, a white family.
And we all looked out for eachother.
We all played with the, the,with everybody.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in our block.
(05:47):
And so that was.
That was our community.
Our little block.
Yeah.
Okay.
You had another block.
And we looked at them.
That was their little community.
Mm-hmm.
And so you kind of had yourlittle community versus their
little community.
And we just had fun.
Awesome.
We, it was, it was a close.
We had close community,
J.R. (06:07):
ladies and gentlemen, Tommie Boudreau.
Tommie Boudreaux (06:10):
We lived
Alice Gatson (06:11):
at, uh, 36 22 Avenue N LA Morgan is sitting
where?
Our house used to be, it's 36 10Avenue N.
We moved from there because ofLa Morgan to 36, 10 Avenue M.
we, we, it was pretty good.
I, I enjoyed my being a littlegirl in Galveston.
(06:33):
I enjoyed it.
I, I don't know if it was theinnocence or what, but we didn't
have a lot.
But it's, we didn't knowanything about not having a lot
or having a, having a lot orhaving nothing.
We were content, our parents,whatever they said, we knew they
were looking out and it was forour benefit.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
(06:53):
It's supper time.
You better have yourself at thehouse ready to eat and you
better not drink water fromsomebody else's house cuz you
got water at your house.
So come on to the house and getyour water at your house.
You don't go and it's okay to goand play and you know, with
which we, our little friends.
(07:15):
You know what I always say?
We had a little gang.
I told you our littleneighborhood stuck together and
then the next block, it wastheir little neighborhood.
So we kind of, we had ourlittle, a little, you know, you
could come in and play with us,but it only if our little
neighborhood wanted you to comein.
Mm-hmm.
But you know, that was just ourlittle group.
(07:36):
We had fun though.
We had a fun little, littlething going on.
We enjoyed it.
Yeah.
J.R. (07:43):
So Tommie, I've, uh, done an intro.
Um, I did a little rundown of anintro and opened up with what
was it like for you growing upin
Alice Gatson (07:51):
Galveston?
Tommie Boudreaux (07:54):
Growing up in Galveston?
Um, I really enjoyed myself.
We did a lot of family things inthe family was together.
We, um, you know, had all ourmeals together.
We.
Celebrated together.
Coming up.
Um, growing up.
Um, My parents couldn't affordto give birthday parties, but we
(08:16):
knew all a special day we weregoing to get our special dessert
and nobody could touch it untilthe birthday person was ready.
Um, um, we had, um, my motherwould make on special days she
would make, um, ice cream andshe used the old.
Ones that you have to turn.
(08:36):
And my father was the last oneto turn it because it was
getting really hard.
Um, she taught us out how tocook.
We were cooking, I guess, whenwe were 10, 11, 12 years old.
But we were a pretty tightknitfamily because my father's, um,
(08:57):
mother moved to Galveston.
She didn't live with us, but hisbrothers moved to Galveston and
it was just, A big familygathering all the time.
Um, the church that we attended,we had attended her church for a
while on Avenue K, and therewere a lot of kids in the
neighborhood, uh, the families.
(09:18):
One difference then when welived in the East End, um, we
were a very diverse community.
While we didn't.
Socialize.
Anybody who was ill or motherhad a baby, there was somebody
there was gonna bring somethingto help'em out.
(09:40):
They would donate clothes if youwere sick.
If you were ill, they were, youcould guarantee you were gonna
get a pot of something fromsomebody.
Uh, so that was the way itworked.
We had, I think that the timeuntil I was about 12 years old
living on Tenth and K, my.
Our family and another family.
(10:01):
Were the only black family onthe block, but we all got along
real well, so.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the things that Iremember, I, um, the young girl
starting to school, my motherwould always, um, we rode the
bus city, the city bus.
My mother would always have acard for us with our address and
everything on it.
(10:22):
And I can remember when.
She walked, me and my sister toschool one day to the bus stop.
One day she told the bus driverwhere we needed to get off and
he said, don't worry about it.
I'll take care of him.
And he actually seated us behindhim so we didn't have to go to
the back of the bus.
And as long as that drug, uh,bus driver was on duty, we sat
(10:47):
next to him.
Got a lot of eyes looking at us,but we were a big family,
family.
Yeah.
Alice Gatson (10:53):
How was,
J.R. (10:54):
uh, school, I guess before we get into the restaurants and,
and things like that, how wasschool growing growing up
Alice Gatson (11:00):
for both of you?
Uh, school was fun for me.
Mm-hmm.
I enjoyed it.
Um, I, I can remember myfavorite teacher was Ms.
Green in the second grade.
Um, and my sister was inkindergarten, I think.
But we would walk to schoolbecause.
(11:20):
Um, we were a block from GeorgeW.
Carver Elementary School, andthat's where I went to
elementary school and my motherwas working there.
So my mom would leave out forseven o'clock to be at work for
seven o'clock and when she leftout, she left breakfast and
everything.
All we had to do was eatbreakfast, put your clothes on
and get ready to walk that blockto school.
(11:42):
So, um, we would do that everyday.
And my, uh, my sister's littlekindergarten teacher.
Who's Mrs.
Deson would look out and makesure that, you know, we got to
school and she would go in,turn, go and let Mom know we
made it to school on time.
But I, I enjoyed, especially myelementary school, you know, I
(12:03):
enjoyed that.
I also enjoyed my central highschool days.
I was in band and our band wasfun.
I enjoyed it Band.
Yeah.
Tommie Boudreaux (12:15):
How about you, Tommie?
In school?
Our teacher, cause I think she,you went to Booker T.
You, you went to Carver.
George w The Carver and Iattended Booker t Washington.
Booker t Washington was on theeast end and Carver was more the
west end.
West end about the middle oftown.
But the, the teachers werealmost like your parent, second
parent.
(12:35):
Mm-hmm.
They expected the most of you.
Uh, they would.
Share information, not just gowith the classroom.
They would expect the youngladies to act like young ladies.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, they expect the young men tobe young men.
They would make sure that wewould dress correctly.
(12:58):
If you were not dress correctly,then they either found some
clothes for you to wear oreither contact your parent and
say they're not appropriatelydressed, but.
I, I, my favorite teacher wasMs.
Strode, my kindergarten teacher.
Well, I had several favoritesin, yeah, I just loved
kindergarten because I loved thestory time and the snack time
(13:22):
when we would have grahamcrackers and cook and milk.
So, uh, that was fun.
Um, Ms.
Adams, several of them, but theywere more of.
I guess just they were the, theconsultant, the therapist, the
teacher and everything.
So yeah.
The ability, yeah.
Yeah.
(13:42):
And, and all teachers, I mean,no matter whether you were in
the one teacher's class, everyteacher was, was checking on
you.
They knew your name, they knewthe parents.
They would actually contactparents.
They would visit parents, so, so
Alice Gatson (13:56):
you wanted to be.
On your best behavior?
Yes.
Oh yes.
Because parents, mom was gonnaknow it by the end of Yes.
The end of the day.
Mm-hmm.
So you, you need to be on yourbest behavior.
Tommie Boudreaux (14:07):
And they really expected the best of us.
In fact, we had teachers to tellus we had to be better.
Mm-hmm.
We had to be right.
Had to be better.
And I realized how much theywere.
Um, preparing us is when I wentoff to college, um, I remember
our science teacher.
(14:28):
Oh gosh, I thought he was ahorrible teacher.
I used to cry in his class, buthe taught us chemistry and, uh,
he actually didn't teach muchfrom the classroom book.
He had his own notes and he.
Taught us Mr.
Mr.
Dansby.
I knew that's who it was.
Mr.
Danby, Mr.
Hall, Dansby.
(14:48):
And when I went off to college,I was sitting in classes, in
chemistry classes, and thosestudents were actually lost.
I, I knew it.
The same thing in, in math, andall the other courses, many of
them taught from notes that theyhad.
I really think they wereteaching from their college
notes.
But, uh, they had us prepare forschool.
(15:09):
And
Alice Gatson (15:09):
I'll tell you, Hall Dansby.
You know, going into his classin the beginning of the school
year, I was, I mean, I wasreally afraid of him.
But once you got in there, youunderstood what he was trying to
do
J.R. (15:23):
for you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pushing, pushing you to bebetter.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So, wanna transition over to,um, one of your books and maybe
just a brief overview and thenwe'll hop into the lost
restaurants.
So, um, the.
One that you both co-authoredfirst African Americans of
Galveston.
Mm-hmm.
So I wanted to see, and, andhear you guys elaborate on, you
(15:47):
know, uh, Galveston had some ofthe first African American
churches and institutions priorto emancipation.
Mm-hmm.
And post emancipation, Galvestonseemed to be this magnet for
African Americans.
Um, why was Galveston sodifferent pre emancipation and
post emancipation?
Tommie Boudreaux (16:09):
Well, one, and, and they say the people
there, the enslaved paper peoplethere, they were still held in
bondage and couldn't really livetheir own lives.
But I think it was the workforcethat made it different.
Mm-hmm.
(16:29):
Galveston didn't haveplantations.
Yeah.
Right.
Most of the African-Americans orthe enslaved people were
domestic servants.
Um, they, they worked on thewharf, they worked on in houses.
They were nannies.
They, they did those type ofjobs, but however, You know,
they were on, they had to beready 24 hours a day, so they
(16:53):
never knew when somebody wasgonna ask them to do something.
So that was one of the majordifference.
And people said that Galvestonenslaved people had it easier,
but it wasn't because they stilldid not, were not able to live
their own lives.
But there were times when, um,We had plantations surrounding
(17:15):
Galveston that sometimes theirmasters would hire them out to
work on those plantations whentheir friend needed some extra
help.
But otherwise, it was the workthat they did in Galveston to
make Galveston very, verywealthy.
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (17:33):
So post emancipation, post juneteenth after 1865, um, you
know, when we sat down a fewweeks ago, we kind of discussed,
um, A little bit about Galvestonbeing this magnet for African
American people to move to, andyou, you definitely see that
highlighted in the lostrestaurants of Galveston, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, what was it about Galvestonthat brought so many African
(17:57):
Americans from all over thecountry?
It was
Alice Gatson (17:58):
different.
Now.
Most of, not all, but most ofthe, the, um, people coming into
Galveston did come offplantations from Brazoria
County, Matagorda County.
And from Louisiana, most of themcame off of plantation.
So moving, they were looking forbetter and Galveston could offer
(18:20):
them better.
A a lot of times in Galveston,uh, might have had slaves, but
the slaves were taught differentskills.
Mm-hmm.
Other than working in the house.
Mm-hmm.
You know that we had brick,brick
Tommie Boudreaux (18:36):
masons.
Brick layers.
Yeah.
Masons.
Alice Gatson (18:38):
Iron workers.
Iron workers.
Yeah.
You know, they, we had it goingon and they kind of saw an
opportunity.
Now if you come up to lostrestaurants, a lot of these, um,
Lot of the African Americansfrom Matagorda and Brazoia
County that they had thebarbecue pits.
Mm-hmm.
(18:58):
They, you know, they broughttheir cooking skills to
Galveston and which was anopportunity to, a business
opportunity.
They could start business and,you know, things like they
hadn't been able to do, havetheir own business or whatever
back, uh, at home.
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (19:17):
So, So, you know, we kind of touched on this a little
earlier, so does any othercommunity have a book written
about their lost AfricanAmerican restaurants or lost
restaurants?
Um, do you guys, have you guysever heard of another one?
Tommie Boudreaux (19:32):
I don't know if any book, uh, written about
lost restaurants.
We, there are a lot of booksthat are, see this book
originally was supposed to be acookbook.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, it was Dr.
Dwayne Jones after we hadcompleted the first book.
He came to the committee abouttwo or three years later and
(19:56):
said, why don't you guys do acookbook and you want to find
recipes handed down over thegenerations and all these.
Restaurants that people havetalked so much about, get their
recipes and so on.
Well, when we finally startworking on it, we realized that
all of those people were gone.
(20:16):
And many of them, if the familymembers knew them, they didn't
write down recipes.
So nobody really knew how toprepare the food.
But as we spoke with differentpeople who had, may have been
waiters, most of'em were in upin age or um, Um, bus boys or,
um, or something like that, theywould tell us the story about
(20:40):
the person, and that's whatreally interests us.
Mm-hmm.
Their, where they, as she said,they, their families came from
the, the cotton field and sugarcane, uh, cities, and came to
Galveston to improve their livesand how they did it.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, It's, it was, it wasjust that way.
(21:02):
And we decided that thosestories were so interesting.
We needed to tell more than justabout the cooking.
J.R. (21:11):
And if you get, if y'all don't have this book, you
definitely need to buy it orcheck it out from the library
and keep it in your kitchenbecause there are some amazing,
amazing recipes in there.
That is for sure.
Okay, so, um, so what were someof the first.
Were the reasons some of theserestaurants were popping up in
(21:33):
locations.
Um, were they mainly near theport catering to workers or
laborers, or were they justgeneral restaurants for anybody?
Uh, a lot of them
Alice Gatson (21:42):
were catering to the walls.
Uh, um, they were like cafes, soto speak, so they had quick hot
lunches or supper, you know, forthe longshoreman.
I, I know for sure for thelongshoreman that's what it was.
But on Sundays also, It was anouting for families.
The, you know, good after churchyou'd go, the family would go
(22:05):
and, and not so much.
It is the difference from now,this is what African Americans
had, these were our places to goto.
So families would get togetherat the church or, or have their
weddings at these places becausethat's where we could go and
that's what we
Tommie Boudreaux (22:25):
could do.
You know, also they were ableto, um, most of them, you know,
were not in the heart ofGalveston, right?
So they were able to buyproperty in the areas that other
people didn't want, want uhhuh.
So you'll find that me have fiverestaurants on the same block.
(22:47):
Mm-hmm.
Across the street.
Down the street.
Some of them may be, may havetwo or three barbecue places.
Within a two block radius.
Uh, and so they took thatopportunity to use the skills
that they'd learned.
Excuse me.
You have to remember that.
(23:10):
Excuse me.
The enslaved people, um, weretheir meals was what their
owners didn't want.
One of the hottest meal, um, oneof the hottest entrees now is
oxtails.
Mm-hmm.
Everybody, you know, they wantoxtails.
(23:32):
They like to go to soul foodPlace for Oxtails.
Well, their owners didn't eatthe oxtail.
Mm-hmm.
Um, now I can remember eatingthings that some of you probably
wouldn't even think about.
Calf brains They would actually,um, add eggs and scramble'em up.
Um, kidney, kidneys, tongue Iunderstand tongue is a delicacy
(23:54):
now.
Yeah, it is in some restaurants.
So, and they, I guess I'massuming they probably found
wild herbs to season thesethings.
Oh yeah.
So the people who came toGalveston brought those skills
that had learned from theirparents, grandparents, and
ancestors, and they'd use thatas a means of making money.
(24:15):
And the thing about thoserestaurants, they were open to
everybody.
So, which meant if someone heardabout it, no matter who you are,
if you were there to buysomething, if they didn't have
it, have it, they would try tofind a way to make it.
What was said, uh, saying aboutthe money?
Oh yeah.
(24:35):
There was one that, this is nota Galveston man, but he had a
restaurant in, um, I thinkBeaumont and, uh, it was back
in.
The twenties, the thirties, andhe had, um, he had one door for
whites and one door for blacks,but for some reason his door for
whites was in the front and forblacks in the back, and some of
(24:57):
his patrons complained.
And he said he wasn't concernedabout who opened the doors and
came in because on Mondaymorning, the green stuff went to
the bank.
So he just, and that was the wayit was.
They, they, they took on anytype of job they could to help
themselves and were verycreative in the foods that they
(25:20):
prepared.
J.R. (25:22):
Um, it's, yeah, it's good to hear you say, you know, it's,
it's nice to hear you say thatthe, all the money's green
doesn't matter.
I mean, that's how kind of itwas viewed.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, was it common for, youknow, um, a, a white person to
walk down and go eat at the.
Yes.
And some of these black ownedrestaurants.
Yes.
You know, where, you know, youcouldn't have black people walk
over to the white ownedrestaurants,
Alice Gatson (25:42):
right?
Yes.
It was
Tommie Boudreaux (25:43):
common.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, oh yes.
Because now I don't, I don'tremember ever actually having
dining in a restaurant, but myfather would sometime take us
when he would purchase food togo.
And you would see as many whitepeople in there as you saw
black.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think, uh, is it Cherry?
(26:04):
I think his name please.
Yeah.
Bill Cherry.
Bill Cherry.
Bill.
Cherry.
Cherry.
We talk about all the differentrestaurants they go to.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it, it was, it was, itdidn't matter who walked in.
Um, they worked and they also,many of them were open 24 hours.
Uh, they would have, um, Thesocial hour on the weekend.
(26:28):
Mm-hmm.
Selling bootleg whiskey.
Many of'em didn't have permitsto do that, but in the wee hours
of the night when someone washaving a party there, if they
ran out, they could pullsomething, a Johnny Walker
bottle from under the shelf andsell it to them.
So they found different ways tomake sure that they make money.
Uh, Mr.
(26:48):
Oliver, I know that, um, threegenerations in that book, you
see that.
I got a chance to speak with hisgrandson and, uh, and his son
before both of'em had passed nowand said he remembers working
there.
And that was the way it was onweekends.
You know, people would comethere and party all night long,
(27:09):
but as long as they were buyingthe barbecue, the food, they
kept going and he supplied themwith the extra spirit that they
needed.
J.R. (27:18):
Um, so it just reminded me, um, For those listening or
watching, uh, they don't knowwhat the Green Book is.
Could one of you tell us whatthe Green Book is and why it was
Alice Gatson (27:28):
significant?
Well, I'll let Tommie take over,but the, the Green Book, the
green book was uh, uh, a list.
It was a book that was puttogether for African Americans
because when you travel, wedidn't have, uh, hotels to stay
in or places to eat.
(27:49):
So the Green Book was acollection of, as you travel in
the south, especially therewere, uh, restaurants that were
safe for you to stop and eat oreven get gas to get gas or
hotel, you know, lodging.
So, Tommie probably can expoundjust a little more on there,
Tommie Boudreaux (28:12):
but, well, and, and basically that's what
he, it was, um, I can't rememberhis first name, but I know his
last name was Green.
Green.
His last name is Green.
Green.
He was a postman.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, he delivered, you know,mail in different areas and so
on.
He was run into AfricanAmericans who were in New York,
where could they stay?
And he would try to give'emdirection to where they could
(28:34):
go.
So he realized then that, youknow, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll publish a book.
And that's what he did.
He contacted, you know,different people that he knew in
various states and so on, andasked them about.
Now there were a few, um,places.
In fact, we, we had, um, acouple to come and tell us about
(28:56):
the Green Book.
When they discovered it, theydecided that they were just, Get
a, a van and just travel andvisit some of them.
Um, and what they would do isthat as people would hear this
information, a safe place wherethey could get gas or safe place
where they could stay, then thatwas entered into the book.
(29:19):
Galveston had several.
Mm-hmm.
Um, one of them, I know TDArmstrong.
Armstrong had one Gus Allen hadone.
We had people who opened theirhomes for the people, uh, Mrs.
Pope and, uh, Ms.
Freeman home was open to people.
Ms.
Pope
Alice Gatson (29:35):
was one of the, she was one of the, Main one.
She
Tommie Boudreaux (29:38):
stayed open a good while too.
Yeah.
And then there's one, what isthe one that's an antique there?
That's the building is stillstanding.
Mm-hmm.
Only under hotel.
Yes.
Uhhuh.
Yes.
Uh, yes.
It's still standing.
It's an, and when I understandthat they had like, um, uh, they
had an area for the people.
Who wanted to, had need to placethe rest, but they also had the
(30:03):
Ladies of the Night in anothersection.
So, um, I guess that's whateverything you need, I guess,
why the built everything youneeded.
So.
Absolutely.
But Galveston at one time was anopen town.
I mean, we were a little LasVegas.
We have all kind of names, SinCity, all those kind of things.
But, uh, we've, we've survived.
But the Green Book was helpful,uh, for those who, who did
(30:26):
travel.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I never, and then, cuz youhad, you had sundown cities.
Yes.
There were sundown cities whereyou weren't supposed to be
caught on the road after dark.
And some people did have someproblems with that.
Um, I can remember my, my dad, Inever did understand why he did
(30:47):
that, but when he would take usto visit our grandmother in
Mexia, Texas.
We would start out early in themorning.
He made sure that his gas wastopped off and he actually had a
container with gas, which wouldbe dangerous now.
And my mother would fry chickenand food and stuff, and he would
drive all the way straight to myhair without stopping.
(31:08):
Well, let's say there was somestops in wooded areas.
Oh, I'll, I'll say that.
Um, but you know, I understandnow why he, he did that.
He did that.
You know, because we will beasking, you know, can we get out
and walk and play?
No, you couldn't because youjust could not travel through
the United States safely.
(31:28):
Mm-hmm.
J.R. (31:30):
So definitely wanted to hammer on something a little
bit, a little bit of atransition here.
You know, reading lostrestaurants at Galveston, even
just flipping through, ifanyone's picked this up and
flipped through and they, andthey start reading where most of
these entrepreneurs andrestaurant owners are from you,
you start wondering what's goingon with Louisiana and why is
half the state of Louisianamoving to Galveston?
So, wow.
(31:50):
Was Albert Feas, Gus Allen, TDArmstrong?
Mm-hmm.
All of them from Louisiana.
So it's, Just one of thosethings, opportunities picked
Alice Gatson (31:57):
up on of opportunity.
Tommie Boudreaux (31:58):
It was an opportunity.
They just didn't have theopportunities in, in Louisiana
that they had in Galveston.
And the, the, the, thewaterfront really drew a lot of
them.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because, um, Galveston, youknow, let's face it, we know
that many of the, um, the, uh,free people left and so they
(32:18):
needed the workforce.
So that's why when they heardthat there was work there where
they would actually get paid,then um, they, they came to
Galveston and some of them, youknow, when they brought, they
brought the family, brought theentire family.
So you may not have the grandmaand everybody family.
You may not have an uncle whocan, can work on the wharf, but
(32:41):
he knew how to cook.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
J.R. (32:45):
Okay.
So I definitely wanna leave timefor questions, um, here in a
little bit.
So we have about five moreminutes.
Um, so this is one thing Idefinitely wanted to ask you.
People have moved away.
Buildings have been torn down,but so many lives were affected
by these entrepreneurs andestablishments.
They were places that spurredconversations, business plans,
(33:06):
places to rest, and enjoy a goodmeal.
Why is it important to continueto remember these lost
restaurants and stories from ourcommunity?
Tommie Boudreaux (33:18):
I guess I, I just wanted to say one word.
They were survivors.
They found a way to survive, andif it was through cooking or
whatever they did, they weresurvivors.
Let's, you know, afteremancipation.
They were still in bondage.
(33:38):
You know, you had the blackcodes, you had all these laws
that were a pass to, let's sayTo maintain their status as a
second last class citizen.
And even though, you know, wehad early churches, we had early
school, you still were notaccepted, but you found a way to
(34:03):
survive.
So I don't know if you wannaanswer Well, my thoughts about
Alice Gatson (34:07):
that.
Um, I think we should, we shouldmake sure that the young folks
know what's going on.
Know that, uh, there areobstacles and how these people
overcame the obstacles that theyfaced.
Um, they should know that there,they, that really, they harder,
(34:32):
they had a harder challenge thanwe probably would have today,
but there was a challenge andthey had to get.
They had to learn how to getover it.
And if they know what happenedand they see what the past,
they'll know how to go forwardand what I need to do if they
did it during those times,surely I can do better than
(34:55):
that.
And that's my thoughts about
Tommie Boudreaux (34:57):
it.
Because they have moreopportunities now.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
And when their, um, ancestorssurvived a little of nothing.
There was always food on thetable.
Mm-hmm.
They kept a roof over the, onthe, over their heads.
Um, and, and the thing is, it'sso many things they, they
(35:18):
learned to do.
Um, my mother could take'em ahand.
And make three meals out of it.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, you may have had baked,you had some dumplings.
You had you, that was a way todo it.
That's right.
Stretch it.
Many meals were not, we didn'thave meat.
(35:38):
Um mm-hmm.
But she would cook a big pot ofbeans.
Beans.
That's right.
Monday was bean day anyway.
And cornbread.
And you were full.
And then that was the thing is,and even on those special days
when she.
When we were able to have likeshrimp, you know, we were
limited to how many shrimp wecould have, but you had to eat
(35:59):
everything else on your plate.
Mm-hmm.
So, and when you did, you wereokay.
Yeah.
J.R. (36:05):
So, while putting together some of these stories for lost
restaurants, what were some ofyour favorite stories or
favorite locations or, man, Iwish I could have eaten there,
or I wish I could have gonethere and eaten.
Tommie Boudreaux (36:18):
For me, it wasn't so much eating there,
there were so many people that Iwish I had been able to sit and
talk to mm-hmm.
To speak with them.
And my favorite one was, um,well I had several favorites,
but, um, Murray CourtneyMurraywho had top cafe.
He didn't know anything aboutcooking, couldn't cook according
(36:40):
to his granddaughter.
You wouldn't wanna touch any,the food he prepared, but he
hired.
People who could do the job, buthe became very involved in the
community.
He was the place that was theplace to find out what was going
on locally, um, statewide andnationally, he sold, um, income
(37:00):
tax.
Sometimes he paid a person'smoney so they could vote.
Um, but the other thing that hedid is that he became a promoter
and he brought in.
Some of the bestAfrican-American talented talent
in the in, in the United States.
Count Basey, cap Calloway, um,Sarah Vaughn, Nat King Cole, all
(37:24):
of those people performed righthere in Galveston.
He brought them here.
He also provided entertainmentfor the military, and he was
giving them discounts before it,quote unquote, became popular.
Uh, But he was a, a wonderfulman and, um, and so sad that,
um, in the sixties, um, the cityof Galveston acquired his
(37:47):
property.
His granddaughter said they didcompensate him, but he didn't
wanna start all over again.
He also helped the people on thejob.
Some of them he knew.
He wanted them have additional,he paid for little training
courses for them.
Um, and when he was 88 yearsold, he took on a job, part-time
job, working for one of thegovernment workforce, uh,
(38:12):
programs.
Someone asked him why was hestill working?
He said he just enjoy helpingpeople.
So he's one of my favorites.
Alice Gatson (38:21):
One of my favorite was, uh, Wade Watkins, and he
was a chef.
The head chef, one of the headchefs at Gaidos.
And, uh, his story wasinteresting as to how he came
from San Antonio to Galveston,where the, and he was in the
restaurant industry.
So he saw an opportunity hereand he, it goes, history goes
(38:44):
back to the old Buccaneer Hoteland his roots, you know, and
coming to Gaidos where he.
Was given an opportunity and hetook advantage of it and did
what he could do.
He was sent to, um, Frenchcooking schools by the Gatos,
and they thought a lot of him,and he was loyal to his job and
(39:07):
he did what he could do to helppromote them.
So that was a good, I enjoyed,you know, the research on that.
I also just enjoyed a fun onewas, um, there's a picture back
there.
Sydney's drive-in one of the.
Uh, the drive-ins of the time,and I do, I never got a chance
to go, but I always wanted, as alittle girl, we'd pass by, go to
(39:30):
the post office because theywere close to the post office.
But in the daytime we might,daddy might drive us to the post
office, but I look over there atthe drive-in and the car hops
and the cars out there, and onSundays people would go meet,
meet up there.
But what I'm thinking about,After the football games.
(39:51):
Now I got a chance the littlegirl daddy would take us to the
football games.
But the, you know, just theidea.
I wish I could have gone cuzthey talk about, oh, they had a
good time at Sydney's Drive-inand I want it to be in that good
time.
Yeah.
J.R. (40:07):
And we've got a photo of Sydney's Drive-in back there so
we can all check it out.
Um, on whenever you guys takeoff.
Um, okay.
So we are kind of running outout of a little bit of time
here, so I'm sorry I did.
No, you're fine.
Mm-hmm.
I did promise give you a littleopportunity to talk a little bit
about Rosewood, uh, cemetery andkind of what's going on there.
(40:27):
And then believe the proceeds tothe, this book goes to Rosewood,
is that correct?
Yes.
Yes.
Both books?
Both.
Both books?
Yeah.
Both books.
So could you tell us for peoplelistening and um, watching.
Who may not know anything aboutRosewood Cemetery.
Could you just give us therundown of what's going on over
Alice Gatson (40:43):
there?
Tommie Boudreaux (40:44):
Rosewood uh, cemetery was founded by a group
of African Americans who decidedthat, um, African Americans
needed a, a, a, um, a decent, aproper burial site.
And so in 1911, a group met atWesley Tabernacle Methodist
(41:07):
Church.
And form the Rosewood CemeteryAssociation.
I think they all paid about$25.
Um, and they purchased, I don'tknow what I guess they did at
the fundraising too, but theypurchased the land on the far
west end.
That was didn't have a seawallanything at the time from, uh,
(41:29):
the Joe Levy family.
And the land actually extended.
To where the seawall is, to backwhere, as far as where Randall's
is now.
Uh, so it was going all the wayto Broadway, up to 61st Street.
Um, it was a large plot in themiddle of it.
That's where they decided tohave the cemetery.
(41:53):
The first was in 1912.
It was, it was a child, the lastbarrier, uh, I think his name
was Boyd.
I can't remember his name wasBoyd 1944.
But I think with one of thestorms, um, a lot of things were
damaged.
(42:13):
Then some of the AfricanAmericans found that, you know,
it was a little distanced to gothat far for burial.
So around 1944 it really didn'texist anymore.
And, um, Well, they weren'tbearing of people there anymore.
And as the, the associatespassed on, other people had, uh,
(42:38):
became the owners the last oneto own, it was Thomas D.
Armstrong, and it was discoveredby someone.
Was a neglected area.
All the trees.
In fact, I think Jamie Durhamtold us that that was a, a
homeless person was finding a,a, place to to, mm-hmm.
I guess to rest.
(42:59):
He found this skull, and ofcourse he called the police.
They investigated this when theyrealized it was a cemetery.
So for years it was just sittingthere and apparently some of the
Galveston city citizens realizedit was there and they went out
and cleaned it up not knowing itwas private property.
(43:20):
Uh, TD Armstrong, when TDArmstrong passed, his family
sold the estate so thisdeveloper had the cemetery.
So when they went out, they,this group went out and cleaned
it and realized later on theywere told they were on private
property.
Well, by then we had the AfricanAmerican Heritage Committee, and
(43:40):
that's when they came to thecommittee and said, you know, we
need to find a way to save thatcemetery.
So that's how it all started.
And finally, with a little, tooka little time, but donated the
cemetery to Galveston HistoricalFoundation.
So we had cleanup days.
Um, the first time I saw it, Imean, that was sometimes even
(44:03):
after this group had cleaned it.
I mean, the weeds were so highuntil they were like trees.
And, um, could you explain whereit
Alice Gatson (44:09):
is?
Uh, it's, it's kind
Tommie Boudreaux (44:10):
of, it's one in a weird spot.
It is.
It's off of 61st street.
It's on 63rd Street.
Mm-hmm.
And I, the best way I candescribe you to get there is
that if you know where GoldenCorral is, the restaurant on
Seawall Boulevard.
If you stay in your right lane,you will see the address.
63rd Street you turn right isnow surrounded by motels.
(44:36):
Uh, and we really feel thatsomebody may have inched a
little of that cemetery.
Uh, and so it is, um, wemaintain it.
Uh, Dr.
Jones has worked on grants.
In fact, at one of the boardmeetings, he indicated that he'd
gotten a grant.
We've had a group of graduatestudents from the University of
(44:57):
Texas in San Antonio has come upwith design of.
What they could, what we coulddo so people can at least go out
and visit.
It's difficult to walk aroundbecause you never know when
you're gonna step in a pothole.
And I guess that's where some ofthe areas of, of sunk, we had a
young man working on, um, Iguess it's master's degree from
(45:20):
Texas A&M that actually used thea drone to kind of go over the
cemetery.
And he was able to find imagesthat looked like they may have
been a casket.
Mm-hmm.
So, so we, we'll still workingon it, it's still not, we really
would like for it one day to beon GHF's, um, sacred Places
(45:43):
Tour.
But that's, that's the historyof the, the cemetery.
I didn't know anything about it,hadn't ever heard of it.
And, uh, when we formed the, um,the African American Heritage
Committee, there were peoplethere who were, were aware of it
and told us all about thehistory of
Alice Gatson (46:01):
it.
Mm-hmm.
So
J.R. (46:02):
to support the preservation of that, you can
purchase
Tommie Boudreaux (46:05):
books.
Absolutely.
Right.
We don't get a penny.
So it's there on the grounds as,um, and, and still we rise.
The Galveston Juneteenth storybecause the space is so small
and we weren't able to geteverything we wanted to get in
it.
We are doing a companion bookwith the same title.
(46:25):
Mm-hmm.
And it expands so much more.
Um, people that we are stillfinding they were born and
raised in Galveston did well.
So
J.R. (46:36):
yeah.
Wow.
Okay, so we only have about fiveminutes left.
I'm gonna open it up to Q&A fromour massive audience that we
have.
So, uh, yeah, let's open it up.
Go ahead, Mike.
Malcom (46:46):
I've got one comment, one question.
You had asked about other booksand lost restaurant, other
communities.
There's actually a series thatpublisher does called Lost
Restaurants.
There are others maybe notAfrican-American restaurants
necessarily..
They have published for othercities across the country Now my
question is...
You were talking about wherethere were some restaurants.
Where whites could go to theblack restaurants And it was
(47:06):
very common to see that Ithought What was integration
like?
How did restaurants integrate inGalveston?
Tommie Boudreaux (47:11):
Well, I would say that ours were somewhat
peaceful.
We did have sit-ins, a young mannamed Salton Camps, um, kind of
organized a group to sit in, uh,one of the, was it Kress's?
One of the, the dining areas.
Woolworth, Woolworth Woo.
Woolworth.
It was Woolworth, Woolworth,Uhhuh.
But um, on the corner, well,they really didn't have much of
(47:33):
a problem.
I think they were arrested onetime, but.
Because of people like GusAllen, TD Armstrong, and some of
the other well-knownAfrican-American citizens, they
really didn't do a whole lotwith it.
And I would say that our um,integration.
Um, was complete when theyintegrated the two schools, and
(47:56):
that wasn't a problem either.
And I think one of the reasons Isaid it, because Ball High
inherited our athletic teams,because Central High School was
known not only in sports, but inacademics, academic science and
everything.
Prairieview, uh, college nowUniversity was, uh, the black.
(48:20):
Interscholastic league.
And if you'd go on and look attheir collection, central High
School was the top in almosteverything and did better.
It's the Houston schools and theDallas School.
So integration, wasn't it?
(48:41):
It wasn't, it wasn't anythinglike it happened in other
cities.
Great question.
J.R. (48:48):
That was a good question.
Ruth (48:49):
Do you feel as if the process of writing this book has
sparked more interest or joy.
When you're now cooking some ofthese recipes in the kitchen?
Tommie Boudreaux (48:56):
Oh yeah, I think so.
Well, the thing I was interestedin, in, in just knowing some of
the recipes, you know, I, uh,one of my favorite places to
dine was, um, Clary's andClary's just is so sad, but he
just happened to pass before wecompleted the book.
(49:18):
And, um, some of his recipes arein there and I know what they
taste like.
We have recipes from my mother,in fact, in Alice's mother and,
uh, Ms.
Henderson, uh, Diane Henderson'smother.
And these were recipes that sheoriginally cooked.
(49:39):
Without, um, let's say withoutmeasuring and so on, but she
decided for my youngest signedwedding anniversary, she would
buy the cups and spoons and allthe things she needed and
measured as she, as she preparedit.
And so the recipe is there withall the, the measurements and
(50:02):
quantities and so on.
But, um, I've had friends who'vesaid they've tried a lot of the
recipes.
There aren't a lot in there, butthey've tried them.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And, and one
Alice Gatson (50:12):
that's really interesting is the, uh, honey
Brown barbecue sauce.
No, I don't think anyone knowsthe secret to the sauce or
really the recipe.
That was one galvestonian.
He's not here anymore.
He passed away recently.
But he swore Honey Brown gavehim the recipe and it's nothing
(50:34):
like honey.
I had honey brown's barbecue anda sauce.
It's nothing
Tommie Boudreaux (50:39):
like it.
Well, bill Cherry interviewedhis wife and she said he never
shared, she didn't know what heused, what rub he used on his
meats, and if she didn't know,
Alice Gatson (50:50):
no.
Nobody.
That's
J.R. (50:52):
right.
Mm-hmm.
I really appreciate it.
Tommie.
Alice, this has been awesome.
Thank you for kicking off the,the series at the Rosenberg.
Really, really appreciate it.
Um, any closing
Alice Gatson (51:04):
remarks?
Well, I just hope everyoneenjoyed it and they really got
something out of it.
And, and as I said earlier, Ilove doing this, but, and I love
it because I want the youngpeople to know, You need to know
what happened.
You need to know.
I always say, you need to lookback so you can go forward.
(51:27):
So that's my comment.
Tommie Boudreaux (51:29):
And, and for me, it's as if I'm, I consider
myself a lifelong learner.
I'm learning things exactly allthe time about Galveston, not
just Galveston's, AfricanAmerican history.
Galveston, I would say.
Galveston, Texas built Texas.
(51:51):
Mm-hmm.
There were so many firsts here,and we are so proud that she, I
heard her say when I was comingin, very proud to be a
Galvestonian.
J.R. (52:02):
This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library
Conversation series where I satdown with a few historians to
talk about some extremelyinteresting historical facts
about Galveston and Texashistory.
I would like to personally thankthe Rosenberg Library for
allowing Galveston Unscripted tohold live podcast conversations
in the library.
J.R. (2) (52:23):
If this is your first time listening to Galveston
Unscripted, be sure to subscribeto the podcast.
If you've listened or watchedbefore and you enjoy the content
we are putting out in audio andvideo, please make sure to like,
subscribe and review thepodcast.
Leave us a review, leave us arating.
It really helps other peoplefind what we are doing here at
(52:43):
Galveston Unscripted.
Your rating and review helpsother people find Galveston
Unscripted and discover theamazing history of our little
island.
And be sure to follow us onFacebook, Instagram, TikTok, all
those social media platforms.
Tommie Boudreaux (52:57):
we were a little Las Vegas.
We have all kind of names, SinCity, all those kind of things.
But, we've survived.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.