December 1, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode of the Game Industry Job Hunt podcast, we're chatting with Arman Jivani, Senior Games Recruiter at Tencent, who works with Lightspeed Studios LA and Timi Studio Montreal. We delved into Arman's unique journey into the gaming industry, starting from his background in business management and his initial foray into QA at Gearbox. He shared how his passion for gaming led him to pivot from a potential career in finance to recruiting, ultimately finding his niche in the gaming sector.
Key Topics
- The importance of understanding the various roles available in the gaming industry, particularly for those who may not have traditional skills in programming or art.
- The "red line, green line" strategy for salary negotiation. Arman explained how candidates can establish their worth by determining a "green line" number—the salary that would make them excited to accept an offer—and a "red line" number, which represents the minimum they would consider.
- How candidates can impress recruiters, highlighting the significance of having a clear understanding of their skills and being proactive in their job search.
- How pursuing side gigs and hobbies can provide fulfillment and potentially lead to new opportunities.
This episode is packed with practical advice and inspiration for anyone navigating the job hunt in the video games industry!
Connect with Arman on LinkedIn
The Deep Dark | Everyday Carry Gear and Apparel
00:00:00 - Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:28 - Host's Mission and Background
00:01:20 - Armand Giovanni's Background and Career Path
00:04:02 - Transitioning Careers and Finding a Place in Gaming
00:06:16 - Exploring Diverse Roles in the Gaming Industry
00:07:04 - The Fortnite Creation Community
00:08:29 - Understanding Your Worth in Salary Negotiations
00:09:38 - The Red Line, Green Line Strategy Explained
00:15:02 - Sharing Salary Expectations with Recruiters
00:18:02 - The Recruiter's Role and Candidate Relationships
00:20:21 - Agency vs. Corporate Recruiting
00:22:42 - Introduction to The Deep Dark and Everyday Carry
00:25:23 - The Importance of Hobbies and Side Projects
00:28:10 - Impressing Recruiters: The Elevator Pitch
00:29:53 - Common Mistakes Candidates Make
00:31:29 - Final Thoughts and Networking Tips
00:32:23 - Closing Remarks and Resources
Check out http://gameindustryjobhunt.com for more episodes and resources!
Follow the show on social!
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Connect with Joe on LinkedIn!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Lots to talk about in this episode with Senior Games
Recruiter from Tencent, ArmanJavani.
Let's go, hey, hey, heyeverybody.
(00:28):
Welcome back to the GameIndustry Job Hunt Podcast,
episode three.
Three episodes in already.
This is going great so far.
We're on a roll, guys.
Anyway, I'm your host, Joe King.
Thank you so much for joiningme, Really appreciate it.
As you may know, we are on amission here to bring together
the information that I'mlearning on my personal game
industry job hunt.
So my goal with this show is totalk to as many great minds as
(00:50):
I possibly can and then sort ofshare that information with all
of you here on the show.
So with that in mind, I'mreally excited about the show.
Today we're talking with myfriend and recruiter, Arman
Javani.
Arman is a recruiter at Tencent, working with Lightspeed
Studios LA and Timmy StudioMontreal.
Before we dive into it, pleasemake sure to follow the show if
you don't already.
Share the show with a friendwho may also be on the job hunt.
(01:11):
Visit GameIndustryJobHuntcomfor resources, show notes, all
that good stuff.
Now, with that out of the way,let's chat with Armand.
Armand Giovanni is the SeniorGames Recruiter for Lightspeed
Studios LA and Timmy StudioMontreal at Tencent.
He supports hiring acrossmultiple functions, including
engineering, art and animationand AI graphics research teams.
(01:31):
When he's not scooping upawesome industry talent, he runs
the Deep Dark a line of killereveryday carry products Arman
hello again, Thank you for beingon the show with me.
Man, it's so good to have you,yeah, good to see you again,
yeah, cool.
So you know, we we had lunch awhile back and had a really
great, just really greatconversation, man, I really
enjoyed it.
I'm looking forward to doing itagain, and we talked about a
(01:52):
lot of different things.
One of the things that Ibrought up that I noticed was so
cool about your background isthat we actually both worked at
gearbox at one point.
So go into that, go into that alittle bit like your background
and everything and sort of sortof let us know set kind of how
you got to where you are now,sort of your origin story.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, I'll uh, I'll try to keep it as succinct
as possible.
But I went to school forbusiness management.
I wanted to open up um, youknow, being entrepreneurs, open
up like cell phone stores andsort of go my own ticket.
But I thought I should go tocollege because my dad had done
that and just sort of wasworking on the fly.
I thought, maybe, hey, if I canget some professional training
(02:29):
and managing inventories andaccounting and things like that,
it would only serve us well.
So you know, as I'm in bankingand working through college, I
realized that the financeindustry, and maybe even just
like entrepreneurial opening myown venture, is probably not
what I want to do at the moment.
You know, looking for a littlebit of a change from there.
(02:50):
So I thought gaming was alwayssomething I had a passion in,
but I'm not a programmer, Idon't have any art skills that
would be worth paying for andgame designer kind of stuff.
So I was like, all right, whatelse can I do?
And I had a couple of friendsthat had gone into software
testing and I was like, ok, Iknow, qa is a good way to break
into games, so let me take acouple of courses and learn the
lingo and see if I can break in,and so that was kind of my
(03:11):
first intro.
I landed at Gearbox on theirovernight QA team and kind of
slowly started to dropeverything I was doing as,
became a headhunter and then aheadhunter in games and kind of
went over to the corporate sideshortly after.
So my first corporateexperience was at Gearbox.
So they gave me my first gamesindustry experience and then my
first corporate recruitingexperience and how to manage
(03:33):
hiring managers and you knowkind of long range planning and
finance and strategy and it wasreally cool.
And you know, then you kind ofget that next opportunity with
Tencent that's looking to openup North American Studios.
So my journey was a little bitunique.
It started in one direction andyou know I got to pivot and
sort of find what I'm good at.
I didn't force my way inthrough things that I'm, you
know, not going to be able tocontribute to.
(03:53):
But you know the business sideof it and understanding how to
account, manage and you knowkind of look at the long
opportunities is how I got here.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting about that to
me is it can be tough makingthat change that you mentioned
at the very beginning of yourcareer.
You know, you sort of thinkyou're headed in one direction
and then all of a sudden justlife happens, you know, and
you're thinking, oh, actually Ithink I'm going to go into games
.
I mean, a similar thinghappened to me.
I was trying to break intomusic, I was a musician and
(04:23):
played games and was reallypassionate about games and then
really exactly the same thing.
I mean no real art skill tospeak of, although I, although
growing up, you know, allthrough school, I loved art a
lot and even even into college,you know, took art classes and
things like that, but it wasn'tsomething that I felt passionate
about following and making acareer out of, I guess.
(04:43):
But but I will say, like youknow, no skill to speak of worth
paying for, you know what Imean.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I remember being super young and like looking at
games sometimes and being like,well, that's a stupid thing that
they've included there.
I wish they would have donelike this or like the leveling
progression, like it should havebeen like this.
And it's like, yeah, you getkind of really into the weeds
about like evaluating things,but I think I always did
appreciate like the art and,yeah, you know the the game
design of games.
You know as much as theexperience of playing them yeah,
(05:10):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's funny, like you said, trying to find a place in
games when you're not an artistor you're not a designer or
programmer.
You don't really you don'treally understand.
Or even in my case maybe yourcase I don't really care about
that stuff.
I don't like that.
Stuff doesn't excite me.
You know what I mean.
I don't really understand oreven in my case, maybe your case
I don't really care about thatstuff.
I don't like that, stuffdoesn't excite me.
You know what I mean.
I don't really get excited aboutthe idea of programming.
I guess I mean, maybe if I,maybe if I explored it a little
(05:32):
more, I would I don't know, butit's it's.
It's funny to think that therereally are so many roles in the
games industry that require noskills like that.
You're still talking aboutbusinesses.
You're still talking aboutcompanies that require
recruiters, hr, marketing,operations, all kinds of
different stuff, even down tooffice management, things like
(05:56):
that.
So that's a really interestingpoint that I think it's.
I'm hoping with this show we'llknow lots of people that are
new to the industry and andtrying to get their foot in the
door.
Important to remember thatthere's lots of room, there's
lots of different roles and lotsof different things that can be
done.
You know, you don't have to bea programmer or a um, you know
artist or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I kind of wish, when you were like in elementary
school, that they, they, theykind of opened up your mind
towards all of these other jobsand and maybe, maybe even
specifically like leaning intodifferent industries, because I
think a lot of times when youyou're growing up it's like
doctor or policeman or firemanor astronaut and it's like great
, huge dreams.
(06:36):
Those are amazing yeah, yeah butfor those of us that maybe
don't go that route, is videogame development even attainable
?
And you realize that it's justregular people, you know it's,
you don't have to be a killerartist to participate and
contribute, and so some stufflike that could just be early
education, you know, maybe justmore informative of like, hey,
if you have an interest inDisney movies or you know, uh,
fortnite, like here's what everyindividual job I mean this is a
(06:59):
billion dollar business, likethese are all the things that go
into building something like afortnight right yeah, yeah, I
mean, you know, what's reallyfunny is um, speaking of
fortnight I, I I didn't realizethis until I started in on this
job search, but there is a.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There is an extremely robust I guess you could say a
community, a sort of subsect ofthe Fortnite world, for lack of
a better term where there areeven game studios now that are
being built around creatingFortnite maps and Fortnite games
and modes and things.
I forget what it's called.
(07:35):
There's like a.
There's a name.
I'll add it to the show notes.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Guys, it's got to be creator stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, it's like a Fortnite creation universe of
some kind, yeah.
But anyway, I had a call with aguy sort of that had a company
doing this and he, sort of youknow, pointed me in the
direction of just hey, googlethis really quick while we're on
the phone, okay.
And so I'm googling and I'mlooking and man, there are all
these modes and all these thingsthat people are creating for
fortnite that they're makingmoney on.
(08:02):
So that just sort of goes toshow you that there are lots of
avenues in games, even asidefrom working at a traditional
game studio in one of thosetraditional roles that we're
talking about.
I mean, we know full well thata lot of people are using Unity
and free versions of Unreal andother various game engines to
(08:22):
create their own games, and theyare finding ways to make money
doing that, which is really cool.
Speaking of money, let me letme segue into this, because I
mentioned this.
I mentioned this the other daywhen we chatted and I wanted to
bring it up because I thought itwas really cool.
One thing that we all strugglewith, I think and not just when
we're on the job hunt isfiguring out our worth right,
and of course, when I say I meanour worth, right, and of course
, when I say I mean our worth, Imean monetary worth relative to
(08:46):
our jobs.
It's already tough to navigatesalary conversations and
interviews, and if we don't havea sense of the value that we
represent, based on the role andour experience, it's even
tougher.
So you posted something onLinkedIn a while back it really
stuck with me called the RedLine, green Line Strategy.
Oh yeah, and so this is where Iwant to sort of get into a
(09:09):
little meat and potatoes of thisepisode.
Right, this is one thing that Ireally wanted to talk to you
about, as a recruiter sort ofyour, your tips and tricks and
this is one that I really wantedto follow up with you on,
because I feel like there's sometips you know within this
strategy that really help notonly, not only with salary
negotiation, but also gaugingyour worth in the first place,
which can lead to all kinds ofpositive things like not wasting
your time on a role that mightnot be right for you and might
(09:31):
not be paying what you need itto pay.
So can you go into that alittle bit, sort of explain that
strategy to us and walk usthrough it and sort of how we
can use it during a job search?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The red line, green line tacticis largely how I've gone about
my own negotiations.
You're really for yourself andexpectation setting, really sort
of laying out a two lineapproach, and you know.
The fundamentals of itessentially are the green line
(09:59):
number is the number that it'sgoing to take for you to sign on
almost immediately.
I mean, if not immediately,that's the number that's saying
I want to be here.
If I can get to this figure andabove, whether that's base
salary, whether that's totalcompensation, whatever that
looks like for you, if you guysare able to hit this green line
number, I'll shut down all otherinterviews.
(10:20):
I'm totally on board, I love ithere, and then the compensation
gives me no questions likelet's rock and roll.
That's the number that you andif you're working with somebody
that's in my position likerecruiter or you know somebody
that's really there to be yourchampion to the organization and
can help set expectations,that's really the number that
you want to play off of Mosttimes.
I mean, I don't know what thelarger market conception is
(10:43):
about what the recruiters do.
Our goal is to fill seats and wedo that by managing
expectations.
I don't get any sort ofpercentage, saving my company
money and this has been true fora decade of doing this that if
they say, hey, I have a $150,000budget and you help me find
somebody for $130K, you're goingto get that extra $20K.
I wish it worked like that.
(11:05):
That would be great, but thatwould be nice.
But that would be such aperverse incentive of us then
low-balling for our own pocket.
That's not how it works.
We are great and our KPIs aremarked on how long it takes to
fill a role, the quality of hire, how long they stay around, how
many chairs we fill.
So there's things like that.
(11:25):
That, like, our goal is toalign with you as a candidate
and fill the role.
So I want that green linenumber because when my hiring
managers finish their interviewsand say Joe is great, he fits
the role 100%, let's go get him.
My turnaround then is hey,here's Joe's green line number.
If we can get to this number,he tells me that he'll shut
(11:46):
everything else down.
He can start in two weeks, um,and he'll sign.
He'll sign our offerimmediately.
Now the red line number is moreof an internal marker for for
the candidate and the recruiter.
It's not necessarily somethingthat we share with the hiring
manager, at least the bestrecruiters that I've seen tend
to hold this on card of sayingyou and I know that.
Let's say it's a lateral move.
(12:07):
Let's say it's a 10k reducedsalary from your current.
You want to be here, but thisred line number makes you really
nervous.
Right, it's a number that youdon't want to be at.
Certainly anything lower thanthis.
It's just not feasible.
You you probably would wouldn'ttake the job.
Right, 99, you turn it downRedline.
You could still see yourselfconceivably taking it.
But now all of these otherfactors come in play.
(12:28):
Do I have to relocate?
What's my growth plan?
When do the annual raises occur?
How often are the bonuses?
Hey, I've got five otherinterviews that I'm conducting
now.
So if you guys are going to beat the redline number, I kind of
need to see my other interviewsthrough to see if there's
something drastically different.
This is a good marker for us,because if I'm negotiating for
(12:49):
you on the green line and thenour budgeting comes back to say,
hey, we can really offer closerto the red line, I can severely
push back and say, hey, I knowthat Joe's got other interviews
that he's conducting and one ofthem is actually moving to offer
.
On friday, we run a really highrisk of losing him if we're at
this number, if I I think theultimate goal and how we've seen
(13:11):
it work out, the green linenumber, if it's in our budget
and it's your number that youwant, that's the path of least
resistance.
We're going to hit that.
Everybody's happy.
But most of the times what endsup happening is it's somewhere
in between and that's thereality of like the red line,
green line is it kind of fallsin that sweet spot.
It's not going to be at thenervous number.
It may not be at that top endnumber of 25 percent, 30 percent
raise that you're sort of likebanking on, but maybe somewhere
(13:34):
in the middle.
A 10 percent raise, 15 percentraise from your current offer.
You know enough to make itworthwhile.
Now everybody kind of feelsgood about what they're looking
at.
So you really need to sort ofmap that out.
I have the advantage of not anysort of proprietary information.
I have the advantage ofconversation.
I meet with people that do yoursame role, you know, in tens of
(13:55):
people, 15, 20 people, whateverit is.
I'll have multiple interviewswhere I can benchmark the
compensation line and so I canallow my hiring managers to
understand hey, if we're goingto hire this role, I've talked
to 20 senior community managers.
It's typically between X and Ythe best of them, right, the
best ones that are coming fromthose shops that we want to
target.
The compensation range isusually between X and Y.
(14:17):
So if we're, offering the lowerend of that.
That puts us in a disadvantagedposition.
Right, and this is kind of theexperience level and quality
that we're going to target.
But you know, candidates havethe same information and have
access to the same stuff that wedo.
There's no proprietaryrecruiting database, it's just
the luxury of conversation.
So if you're doing yourresearch, if you're having
(14:38):
conversations with others andthis is what I recommend to
everybody is you know you shouldbe connecting with people that
are in your role across everycompany.
Right, connect with everysingle community manager and
have conversations and be frank.
Hey, what you know you'veinterviewed recently
congratulations on the new jobthat you got.
What have you seen as the rangeof what people have been
offering you or what theconversations would sound like?
Now you can sort of benchmarkand you can create your
(14:59):
redlining, green line numberfrom there.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and maybe I'm misunderstanding here
.
So I want to ask just toclarify are these numbers that
you recommend sharing with arecruiter, or are these numbers
that you want to keep toyourself, or is it case
dependent maybe?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean, I think your best ally is a recruiter.
They've got direct access tothe hiring manager, they've got
proprietary insider intelligenceon like hey, here's what we
have hired before.
Here's kind of the flinchingpoint.
So you really want to make youknow a partner out of a
recruiter at the company.
So, the more information thatyou can share, the better.
This isn't, even in my case,the best scenarios I've worked
(15:34):
out where I'm open and honestabout my expectations.
I mean, even for Tencent thiswas the case.
It was like I'm pretty happy atGearbox and I don't have any
plans to leave.
I love it here, I've gotfriends here.
But if I am looking, this is mynumber and it's just being open
and honest about it.
It's not trying to play cardsclose to the chest, because that
ends up missing yourexpectations.
It hurts feelings, it wastestime.
(15:55):
So if you have a recruiter andyou trust that they've got your
interest at heart, share thatinformation and most of the good
recruiters will battle for thehigh number because it's less
negotiation.
If it's in their budget, theywant to get you what you want,
and if it's at the low number,they're going to battle against
it.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
More importantly, so, yeah, share that information.
That's one thing I'm sort of.
I've sort of learned the pastfew months that I've been on the
job hunt about recruiters is Ihave, I have gotten the sense
many, many times that therecruiter is I don't know if I
want to go so far as to say onmy side, quote, unquote but the
dynamic isn't necessarily whatI've thought in the past that it
(16:31):
was.
In other words, the recruiteris on the side of the hiring
manager and the organization andit's them against me.
And I have gotten I knowexactly what you're talking
about there I've gotten thesense in several interactions
that I've had with recruitersand interviews and things like
that, that they are very much onmy side and saying hey, you
know, what can we do to get youon?
What can we do to help you?
(16:52):
I think the state the industryis in right now it for me, I
think it's come down to the factthat it's me versus a bunch of
other equally qualifiedcandidates.
I feel like I'm a goodcandidate in the jobs that I'm
going for and I just think thatthere are so many of us right
now.
You know, as you know, I'm in acommunity management, social
media management type role.
There are so many greatcommunity people on the market
(17:14):
right now that are out therelooking, and so it's funny that
you say that, because I do getthat same sense that, with you
saying that and you kind ofgiving a sampling of sort of the
KPIs that recruiters are goingfor, when you think about it, it
is a recruiter's job to fillthese positions, and so it does
them no good to draw hard linesand to do the opposite of what
(17:39):
you're saying.
I guess it would be a better wayto put it.
It does behoove them to havegood relationships with these
candidates, do what they can tohelp them, and things like that.
So that's, that's somethingreally good to think about.
You know, as we're all those ofus that are on the hunt keep
that in mind that you know therecruiter it's not necessarily
an adversarial relationship andin fact I would dare to say that
(17:59):
it's more likely that it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I would be so bold to say that if you feel like your
recruiter is combative andthere's some sort of tension
there where you feel like youeither got to prove yourself
something or pay my interesthard, that's probably not
somebody that you want to beworking with.
I think, across the gamesindustry especially I mean I'm
(18:22):
connected to most, all of themand every single feedback that I
get from candidates of like, oh, I work with XYZ and I work
with her and I work with them, Imean it's always like the most
positive interaction, like theygave me the information.
They kept pounding the hiringmanager to get feedback, they
kept me in the loop.
That's what a good recruitershould do.
So you don't have to do thatchasing down, you don't have to
(18:44):
feel like a hiring manager isjust, you know, dancing around
you.
Hey, they told me I'm not agood fit, but not why.
A lot of times, if you have agood relationship with your
recruiter, they're going to giveyou insight Feedback.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's really great.
That's so valuable If you feellike you have to put attention
with your recruiter.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Good fit, I think, most especially in games
industry recruiters.
They want to hire diverse.
They want to hire, you know, ahuge range of skill sets,
different peoples, and you knowmost of them are super friendly.
So, and I mentioned corporaterecruiting versus you know, the
other side of agency recruiting.
Quick difference on those twoAgency recruiters are, you know,
(19:24):
sort of external to theorganization, their, their
vendor partners, essentially fororganizations to spread their
reach.
Um, you know, think of it like ascout to the market, right?
Hey, you go out like a, like aheadhunter, right, you go out,
this is the XYZ skillset we'relooking for and you guys go find
it.
Now they can go talk to amyriad of candidates, versus a
corporate recruiter that isrepresenting one company, and
(19:44):
all of my intentions are gearedtowards that singular studio.
But my scope might be a littlebit more limited in corporate
recruiting, perhaps because oflocation, the types of games
that we build, right, the genre,the platform.
We're really sort of like doingone thing or a couple of things
versus an agency recruiter thatmight represent a wash of skill
sets, right?
(20:05):
So you want to build yournetwork over with both agency
recruiters and corporaterecruiters, those that represent
the company directly and thosethat have access to a ton of
information and a ton ofcompanies.
They talk to a ton ofcandidates.
I think the combination of bothof them are going to really
help people understand them.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I cannot agree with you more.
I think, think you're right.
You know you got to spread your, spread your resources.
You know fairly widely andknowing as many corporate
recruiters and agency recruitersas you can, I think that's
great.
So we don't have a whole lot oftime, I don't want to keep you
too long, but I do want to giveyou a chance to talk about the
deep dark a little bit, becauseas we uh, as we discussed at
lunch the other day, we're bothsort of well.
(20:44):
Really, the biggest thing wetalked about was backpacks.
We're backpack nerds both of us, which I know for listeners
that may be a new term for you,but yes, us backpack nerds, we
are out there.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We're here and we're ready to wear backpacks.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, totally, but this is really cool.
So yeah, I mean, you know, ifyou want to talk about that a
little bit, uh, I'm sure we haveother backpack nerds uh
listening that may not even knowuntil now that they're backpack
nerds.
They may have they may notrealize that's a thing.
And now they're, now it'sdawning on them.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh hey, I'm a back, I'm a backpack nerd.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Wow, that explains a lot.
So tell us about it a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, so it's the gear that you have on you every
day and really it's sort of likean offshoot, maybe a less
intense prepper kind ofmentality.
It's it's your backpack, it'syour, you know your overcoat.
It's you know the, the knivesand wallet and cell phone.
(21:38):
It's all the stuff that youkeep and how you guard all that
stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
It's kind of more like Boy Scouts, like always be
prepared, right yeah, and youkeep, and how you guard all that
stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
it's kind of more like boy scouts, like always be
prepared, right, yeah, and andit's surprising, like as my life
has transitioned, I've got kidsnow and, um, I've actually
changed up my interestscompletely, you know, compared
to maybe 10 years ago.
So you know, really I startedgetting into this because of
that nature, like I had a bunchof student college gear right,
backpacks and just random stuffthat was unintentional, it was
just sort of around the houseand and I'm finding that like,
(22:07):
hey, this doesn't really fit mylife now.
Right, it was good when it was,um, but it doesn't have to mean
more expensive.
It.
It can mean more quality.
It can mean more expensive.
It can mean you know a certaintheme of stuff that you like to
put together all leather goodsor all, yeah, each color, right,
um, so that's kind of where thefun comes in is like
intentionally designing thestuff that you carry with you
all the time.
So that's really where this ismore of a passion project.
(22:29):
I, you know I've bought and youknow sold and you know, uh,
joined forums and communities ofeveryday carry goods, um, and
and I'm a nerd for for outdoorgear and I like hiking and
camping and stuff like that, um,but I kind of wanted to take a
swing at building my own thing.
So that's where the deep darkcame in.
It's kind of got this coollittle moniker to gaming.
I think you kind of get like anerdy feel with it, um, but it's
(22:52):
in.
It's meant to be a little bitmore elevated, um, it's supposed
to be hyper tough.
That's the stuff that I want tobuild.
You know, I don't want to keepspending money on backpacks.
I want one that can goeverywhere.
I take it to football, I takeit to work, um, I, you know,
it's my emergency bag in the car, um, and it's got everything in
it, so like just tough gear.
Um, it's got a little bit of anerdy flair to it from from time
(23:13):
to time.
And yeah, that's where thiscame in.
So then my first swing at itwas a backpack and it's like a
ruck style, um, weatherproof, uh, you know, rain resistant kind
of stuff.
And you know, I'm just tryingto see a little bit more about
how to bring in a market of likegamers.
Uh, I want, I want this groupto get out more.
I want this group to likeexperience other things as well.
I'm a gamer myself and and Ihave other interests and hobbies
(23:35):
and how can we kind of marrythose two worlds together?
So that's kind of where thespecial project came in.
We need, we all need to get outand touch grass every now and
then right, so yeah, so this isgood, myself included, right.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, myself included too, and you know, one reason
that I bring it up is because,um, I, I I did a post on
LinkedIn the other day that sortof basically addressing the
Microsoft layoffs that we had.
As we're recording this now,last week, Microsoft laid off
something like 650 people orsomething like that, and so you
know, when that happens, I kindof tried to impart some of the
(24:03):
things that I'm learning just ina LinkedIn post like hey,
here's a little advice foreverybody Don't freak out, stay
positive.
It's not your fault, it's fine.
One of the things that I cameup with was try to think of some
kind of a hobby or a sidehustle or something that you can
put some energy into, becauseit will give you a positive
feeling of progress, right, and,and that this sort of.
(24:24):
I know that I know you didn'tcreate this around that same
circumstance and around thatsame idea, but it but I think
it's a good reminder.
It's a good reminder to me atleast, to be thinking of other
things, like don't just bethinking about the game, the
game industry, job hunt.
Be thinking about, hey, what'ssomething I enjoy, that I can
put some time and some energyinto?
(24:45):
That is not only going toimprove my mental health, but
also it, who knows?
I mean it could turn intosomething.
You know what I mean.
So, um, I think that's a reallygood reminder of that.
You know, for me, this podcastis that thing.
And then also, you know I'm uh,as I told you, I'm getting into
consulting and doing freelancework and things like that, which
obviously scratches two itches,if you will, for me, right, um,
(25:09):
so that's great.
So be you know, be thinkingabout those kinds of things.
You know, listeners, that youcan, that you can get into, that
you can do.
That will, you know, not onlyimprove your mental health, but,
who knows, maybe turn intosomething, maybe turn into
income somehow.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, this is crazy because, like I posted that, hey
, this is like a passion projectI'm going to be working on.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So just you know, hey , just kind of keep your eyes
peeled.
It wasn't like an announcement.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Just I thought it'd be cool to throw it out and see
my journey and catalog the stuffthat I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That's a great content strategy is building it
as you go, I think, over theyears, people, and especially in
games, we hold everything backuntil the beat right.
We hold everything back untilthe perfect moment, which in our
line of work, we should.
But I do think there'ssomething to be said for small
businesses, creators, founders,things like that.
As you're learning a new skillor you're building a thing,
(25:57):
create content around that andshow people what it's like to do
that.
Show them the good, bad, theugly, show them the mistakes
that are being made and howyou're fixing them.
I think there's a lot of valuethere.
Again, it all ties back intothe job search too.
If you're creating that content, you're showing not only can
you create content, but you'reshowing the things that you can
do.
You're showing the ways thatyou can learn from your mistakes
, teach yourself new skills,things like that, and all that's
(26:20):
hugely valuable.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I mean, I've got like three or four prototypes in my
closet right now of, like, thebags that I've created, and some
of them are hot garbage and Ihated it the minute that it
showed up and I spent money onit.
And you know, I'm spending allmy time sourcing materials and
trying different things, and soit's like it's not always going
to be successful and I'm not and, to be honest, I am terrible at
social media.
So none of this was for content.
Something that I could show mykids later on was like, hey,
(26:43):
here's kind of the journey thatI took.
You know, here's, here's howlong it took.
I mean, it was like a a year ofplanning and buying and cutting
stuff up and, you know, beatingit the hell up so I could see
how long it lasts.
And, um, you know, I think itshould be really cool to show
them that like hey, noteverything's an overnight
success.
And you know, I and I was goingto say like, when I posted that
(27:07):
announcement also, it was funnyhow many people that I hadn't
touched base with in months,years, had reached out and like,
oh man, I'm actually a backpacknerd myself and I'm a fan of
this gear, that gear.
I actually use them as aninspiration, and so they come
out the woodwork and now theyhave reasons to kind of
reconnect And's like, yeah, allthese extra little projects
inside things, um, you know,they can bring, bring your
(27:28):
network deeper and closertogether absolutely, and that's
what I was just gonna say.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The value there is.
It's so much more than justcreating new income or, you know
, creating content or anythinglike that it's.
It really can be just about theprocess.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It can just be about having the fun and doing the
thing and learning something new, you know it's really cool to
see your, your thing, yourcreation out there which is uh,
you know, like we talked aboutright, like I imagine, how cool
it is for an artist or adesigner to see their stuff
implemented and people areplaying it.
That's kind of kind of thefulfillment that I want to is
like hey, this and it was reallytough, and you know, I'm kind
(28:05):
of kind of putting my my tastesout there for people and
hopefully they like what theysee.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
No, absolutely so.
One of the goals of this showis to pass on helpful tips, you
know, that listeners canactually use in their job search
.
That's one of my, one of my biggoals.
I don't want this to just befluff, where I'm just bsing with
you know people for 30 minutesand then no one gets anything
out of it.
So, with with that in mind,what's something that a
candidate could do if theyreally wanted to impress you as
a recruiter?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I mean, it's obviously role dependent, but I
think if you have a solidunderstanding of what you do and
why, somebody would pay you todo that, if you could be trapped
in an elevator with someone andthat was your opportunity to
land the job.
What's that 15, 20 secondslooking like where you could
tell them here's what I do,right.
Here's who I am, here's what Ido, and this is why I'm the best
(28:51):
in my craft, right?
This is why I'm at the top ofmy field.
I think that's always superimpressive when somebody has a
really good grasp and confidenceover what they do.
And I mean, I've seen that frominterns, I've seen it from
folks that are still in school.
So this doesn't come with just20 years of experience and you
gotta be a director or something.
So having a really sure ideaabout who you are, what you do,
(29:16):
being able to discuss reallyconcretely why you're good at
what you do and why somebodywould wanna hire you, I think is
always really impressive.
So you gotta just continue topractice that elevator pitch.
That'll open up so many doorsfor you.
And as you get the doors open,some of the interviews you take
on will flame out.
Some of the investor pitchesyou do will flame out, but you
got to give yourself moreopportunities.
(29:37):
So that's what I always findsuper impressive is when
somebody has just a grasp onthemselves and you know very
sure about what they do andwhere they're solid.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
On the flip side, what's a common mistake that you
could see candidates makingthat you would want to point out
to them to avoid?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I think some people are like not proactive enough.
You know, that's one of thewhen I do career coaching with
people.
The proactive nature of yourjob search and of networking is
one thing that I continue tohammer on, because I see way too
many people, evenhyper-experienced people, and
it's not about introverts andextroverts, it's the strategy
that you're taking on.
(30:13):
You're just not planning right.
I think you're being too casualand passive with your job
search and your networking, andit doesn't have to be for any
intention, but if you are justwaiting for the job boards to
tell you what jobs are open andyou're just waiting for somebody
to pick up your applicationonce you apply and you're just
(30:33):
waiting for somebody to give youfeedback, I mean a lot of this
like waiting around.
Especially, like you mentioned,there's 20, 30 other people
that are stellar at my job andyou know we're all kind of
gunning for the same stuff.
Now Think about how you getyourself ahead of that race
right, it can be competitivewithout being.
I think some people feel likeyou're putting other people down
to put yourself up, and that'snot what it is right.
(30:54):
It goes back to you havingconfidence in what you do and
why you think you're great atwhat you do and why somebody
would want to talk or hire you,talk to you or hire you.
So yeah, just being too passivewith their job search, waiting
around a lot and then feelinglike it's the market that's not
yielding for them, when theycould follow up, when they can
connect proactively, when theycan get out there and meet folks
, because that's really wherethe opportunities are coming in
(31:15):
right now.
It's through your network, yep,I would agree wholeheartedly.
It's through your connections,it's through GDC.
It's very, very rarely nowgoing to be in a pool of 800
applicants that come into a jobposting.
So yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, all right.
So there you have it, guys.
Make sure you are networking,networking, networking and get
that elevator pitch down.
Get that, tell me aboutyourself.
Question down, usually thefirst one.
Get it down and you know, nailit and that'll go a long way,
arman.
Thank you again, man, I reallyappreciate it.
This has been so great.
I'll have you back on very soon.
So everybody expect that,expect to see Arman Javani
(31:50):
returns on the podcast very soon.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Really appreciate it, and I do leave my calendar open
, mostly on Fridays, for thesetypes of like career coaching,
and I do interviews with peopleoutside of the industry that
want to break in, or folks thathave been laid off or, you know,
students right now of like, hey, how can I get ahead of my my
uh cohort?
Um.
So I always set aside 30 minutelittle chats where we can go
over like the different types ofpeople you want to network with
and how to utilize LinkedIn.
(32:13):
Let's take a look at yourportfolio, let's put together a
target list of companies and howcan I share my network with you
.
So folks are more than welcometo sign up and schedule a call
if they need some.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, and I'll uh, I'll make sure everybody, as
you're hearing this, go togameindustryjobhuntcom and check
out the show notes for thisepisode.
I'll have links to armand'slinkedin and the deep dark
website and everything in therethat you need to know to reach
out to him.
So check that out for sure.
But, yeah, man, listen again.
Buddy, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I really appreciate it awesome man, good to see you
again yep cheers.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
All right, everybody that is going to do it for this
episode of the Game Industry JobHunt Podcast.
I want to thank all of youagain for listening, really
appreciate it.
Of course, big thanks to thisepisode's guest, arman Javani
from Tencent.
Really appreciate it, man.
Thank you again.
Other than that, hey, connectwith me on LinkedIn.
Let's chat over there, let'sget to know each other.
Also, you can follow me onTwitter at Joe King,
(33:05):
j-a-u-x-k-i-n-g.
Visit the show websiteGameIndustryJobHuntcom for show
notes, links, all that goodstuff, resources, all kinds of
things that I think are going tobe really helpful.
So check those out In themeantime.
We will see you in the next one.
Thanks, guys.
Have a good one.
Bye, thank you.
Lots to talk about in this episode with Senior Games
Recruiter from Tencent, ArmanJavani.
Let's go, hey, hey, heyeverybody.
(00:28):
Welcome back to the GameIndustry Job Hunt Podcast,
episode three.
Three episodes in already.
This is going great so far.
We're on a roll, guys.
Anyway, I'm your host, Joe King.
Thank you so much for joiningme, Really appreciate it.
As you may know, we are on amission here to bring together
the information that I'mlearning on my personal game
industry job hunt.
So my goal with this show is totalk to as many great minds as
(00:50):
I possibly can and then sort ofshare that information with all
of you here on the show.
So with that in mind, I'mreally excited about the show.
Today we're talking with myfriend and recruiter, Arman
Javani.
Arman is a recruiter at Tencent, working with Lightspeed
Studios LA and Timmy StudioMontreal.
Before we dive into it, pleasemake sure to follow the show if
you don't already.
Share the show with a friendwho may also be on the job hunt.
(01:11):
Visit GameIndustryJobHuntcomfor resources, show notes, all
that good stuff.
Now, with that out of the way,let's chat with Armand.
Armand Giovanni is the SeniorGames Recruiter for Lightspeed
Studios LA and Timmy StudioMontreal at Tencent.
He supports hiring acrossmultiple functions, including
engineering, art and animationand AI graphics research teams.
(01:31):
When he's not scooping upawesome industry talent, he runs
the Deep Dark a line of killereveryday carry products Arman
hello again, Thank you for beingon the show with me.
Man, it's so good to have you,yeah, good to see you again,
yeah, cool.
So you know, we we had lunch awhile back and had a really
great, just really greatconversation, man, I really
enjoyed it.
I'm looking forward to doing itagain, and we talked about a
(01:52):
lot of different things.
One of the things that Ibrought up that I noticed was so
cool about your background isthat we actually both worked at
gearbox at one point.
So go into that, go into that alittle bit like your background
and everything and sort of sortof let us know set kind of how
you got to where you are now,sort of your origin story.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, yeah, I'll uh, I'll try to keep it as succinct
as possible.
But I went to school forbusiness management.
I wanted to open up um, youknow, being entrepreneurs, open
up like cell phone stores andsort of go my own ticket.
But I thought I should go tocollege because my dad had done
that and just sort of wasworking on the fly.
I thought, maybe, hey, if I canget some professional training
(02:29):
and managing inventories andaccounting and things like that,
it would only serve us well.
So you know, as I'm in bankingand working through college, I
realized that the financeindustry, and maybe even just
like entrepreneurial opening myown venture, is probably not
what I want to do at the moment.
You know, looking for a littlebit of a change from there.
(02:50):
So I thought gaming was alwayssomething I had a passion in,
but I'm not a programmer, Idon't have any art skills that
would be worth paying for andgame designer kind of stuff.
So I was like, all right, whatelse can I do?
And I had a couple of friendsthat had gone into software
testing and I was like, ok, Iknow, qa is a good way to break
into games, so let me take acouple of courses and learn the
lingo and see if I can break in,and so that was kind of my
(03:11):
first intro.
I landed at Gearbox on theirovernight QA team and kind of
slowly started to dropeverything I was doing as,
became a headhunter and then aheadhunter in games and kind of
went over to the corporate sideshortly after.
So my first corporateexperience was at Gearbox.
So they gave me my first gamesindustry experience and then my
first corporate recruitingexperience and how to manage
(03:33):
hiring managers and you knowkind of long range planning and
finance and strategy and it wasreally cool.
And you know, then you kind ofget that next opportunity with
Tencent that's looking to openup North American Studios.
So my journey was a little bitunique.
It started in one direction andyou know I got to pivot and
sort of find what I'm good at.
I didn't force my way inthrough things that I'm, you
know, not going to be able tocontribute to.
(03:53):
But you know the business sideof it and understanding how to
account, manage and you knowkind of look at the long
opportunities is how I got here.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Yeah, you know, what's interesting about that to
me is it can be tough makingthat change that you mentioned
at the very beginning of yourcareer.
You know, you sort of thinkyou're headed in one direction
and then all of a sudden justlife happens, you know, and
you're thinking, oh, actually Ithink I'm going to go into games
.
I mean, a similar thinghappened to me.
I was trying to break intomusic, I was a musician and
(04:23):
played games and was reallypassionate about games and then
really exactly the same thing.
I mean no real art skill tospeak of, although I, although
growing up, you know, allthrough school, I loved art a
lot and even even into college,you know, took art classes and
things like that, but it wasn'tsomething that I felt passionate
about following and making acareer out of, I guess.
(04:43):
But but I will say, like youknow, no skill to speak of worth
paying for, you know what Imean.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
I remember being super young and like looking at
games sometimes and being like,well, that's a stupid thing that
they've included there.
I wish they would have donelike this or like the leveling
progression, like it should havebeen like this.
And it's like, yeah, you getkind of really into the weeds
about like evaluating things,but I think I always did
appreciate like the art and,yeah, you know the the game
design of games.
You know as much as theexperience of playing them yeah,
(05:10):
and it's.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's funny, like you said, trying to find a place in
games when you're not an artistor you're not a designer or
programmer.
You don't really you don'treally understand.
Or even in my case maybe yourcase I don't really care about
that stuff.
I don't like that.
Stuff doesn't excite me.
You know what I mean.
I don't really understand oreven in my case, maybe your case
I don't really care about thatstuff.
I don't like that, stuffdoesn't excite me.
You know what I mean.
I don't really get excited aboutthe idea of programming.
I guess I mean, maybe if I,maybe if I explored it a little
(05:32):
more, I would I don't know, butit's it's.
It's funny to think that therereally are so many roles in the
games industry that require noskills like that.
You're still talking aboutbusinesses.
You're still talking aboutcompanies that require
recruiters, hr, marketing,operations, all kinds of
different stuff, even down tooffice management, things like
(05:56):
that.
So that's a really interestingpoint that I think it's.
I'm hoping with this show we'llknow lots of people that are
new to the industry and andtrying to get their foot in the
door.
Important to remember thatthere's lots of room, there's
lots of different roles and lotsof different things that can be
done.
You know, you don't have to bea programmer or a um, you know
artist or anything like that.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
I kind of wish, when you were like in elementary
school, that they, they, theykind of opened up your mind
towards all of these other jobsand and maybe, maybe even
specifically like leaning intodifferent industries, because I
think a lot of times when youyou're growing up it's like
doctor or policeman or firemanor astronaut and it's like great
, huge dreams.
(06:36):
Those are amazing yeah, yeah butfor those of us that maybe
don't go that route, is videogame development even attainable
?
And you realize that it's justregular people, you know it's,
you don't have to be a killerartist to participate and
contribute, and so some stufflike that could just be early
education, you know, maybe justmore informative of like, hey,
if you have an interest inDisney movies or you know, uh,
fortnite, like here's what everyindividual job I mean this is a
(06:59):
billion dollar business, likethese are all the things that go
into building something like afortnight right yeah, yeah, I
mean, you know, what's reallyfunny is um, speaking of
fortnight I, I I didn't realizethis until I started in on this
job search, but there is a.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
There is an extremely robust I guess you could say a
community, a sort of subsect ofthe Fortnite world, for lack of
a better term where there areeven game studios now that are
being built around creatingFortnite maps and Fortnite games
and modes and things.
I forget what it's called.
(07:35):
There's like a.
There's a name.
I'll add it to the show notes.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Guys, it's got to be creator stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, it's like a Fortnite creation universe of
some kind, yeah.
But anyway, I had a call with aguy sort of that had a company
doing this and he, sort of youknow, pointed me in the
direction of just hey, googlethis really quick while we're on
the phone, okay.
And so I'm googling and I'mlooking and man, there are all
these modes and all these thingsthat people are creating for
fortnite that they're makingmoney on.
(08:02):
So that just sort of goes toshow you that there are lots of
avenues in games, even asidefrom working at a traditional
game studio in one of thosetraditional roles that we're
talking about.
I mean, we know full well thata lot of people are using Unity
and free versions of Unreal andother various game engines to
(08:22):
create their own games, and theyare finding ways to make money
doing that, which is really cool.
Speaking of money, let me letme segue into this, because I
mentioned this.
I mentioned this the other daywhen we chatted and I wanted to
bring it up because I thought itwas really cool.
One thing that we all strugglewith, I think and not just when
we're on the job hunt isfiguring out our worth right,
and of course, when I say I meanour worth, right, and of course
, when I say I mean our worth, Imean monetary worth relative to
(08:46):
our jobs.
It's already tough to navigatesalary conversations and
interviews, and if we don't havea sense of the value that we
represent, based on the role andour experience, it's even
tougher.
So you posted something onLinkedIn a while back it really
stuck with me called the RedLine, green Line Strategy.
Oh yeah, and so this is where Iwant to sort of get into a
(09:09):
little meat and potatoes of thisepisode.
Right, this is one thing that Ireally wanted to talk to you
about, as a recruiter sort ofyour, your tips and tricks and
this is one that I really wantedto follow up with you on,
because I feel like there's sometips you know within this
strategy that really help notonly, not only with salary
negotiation, but also gaugingyour worth in the first place,
which can lead to all kinds ofpositive things like not wasting
your time on a role that mightnot be right for you and might
(09:31):
not be paying what you need itto pay.
So can you go into that alittle bit, sort of explain that
strategy to us and walk usthrough it and sort of how we
can use it during a job search?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, absolutely so.
The red line, green line tacticis largely how I've gone about
my own negotiations.
You're really for yourself andexpectation setting, really sort
of laying out a two lineapproach, and you know.
The fundamentals of itessentially are the green line
(09:59):
number is the number that it'sgoing to take for you to sign on
almost immediately.
I mean, if not immediately,that's the number that's saying
I want to be here.
If I can get to this figure andabove, whether that's base
salary, whether that's totalcompensation, whatever that
looks like for you, if you guysare able to hit this green line
number, I'll shut down all otherinterviews.
(10:20):
I'm totally on board, I love ithere, and then the compensation
gives me no questions likelet's rock and roll.
That's the number that you andif you're working with somebody
that's in my position likerecruiter or you know somebody
that's really there to be yourchampion to the organization and
can help set expectations,that's really the number that
you want to play off of Mosttimes.
I mean, I don't know what thelarger market conception is
(10:43):
about what the recruiters do.
Our goal is to fill seats and wedo that by managing
expectations.
I don't get any sort ofpercentage, saving my company
money and this has been true fora decade of doing this that if
they say, hey, I have a $150,000budget and you help me find
somebody for $130K, you're goingto get that extra $20K.
I wish it worked like that.
(11:05):
That would be great, but thatwould be nice.
But that would be such aperverse incentive of us then
low-balling for our own pocket.
That's not how it works.
We are great and our KPIs aremarked on how long it takes to
fill a role, the quality of hire, how long they stay around, how
many chairs we fill.
So there's things like that.
(11:25):
That, like, our goal is toalign with you as a candidate
and fill the role.
So I want that green linenumber because when my hiring
managers finish their interviewsand say Joe is great, he fits
the role 100%, let's go get him.
My turnaround then is hey,here's Joe's green line number.
If we can get to this number,he tells me that he'll shut
(11:46):
everything else down.
He can start in two weeks, um,and he'll sign.
He'll sign our offerimmediately.
Now the red line number is moreof an internal marker for for
the candidate and the recruiter.
It's not necessarily somethingthat we share with the hiring
manager, at least the bestrecruiters that I've seen tend
to hold this on card of sayingyou and I know that.
Let's say it's a lateral move.
(12:07):
Let's say it's a 10k reducedsalary from your current.
You want to be here, but thisred line number makes you really
nervous.
Right, it's a number that youdon't want to be at.
Certainly anything lower thanthis.
It's just not feasible.
You you probably would wouldn'ttake the job.
Right, 99, you turn it downRedline.
You could still see yourselfconceivably taking it.
But now all of these otherfactors come in play.
(12:28):
Do I have to relocate?
What's my growth plan?
When do the annual raises occur?
How often are the bonuses?
Hey, I've got five otherinterviews that I'm conducting
now.
So if you guys are going to beat the redline number, I kind of
need to see my other interviewsthrough to see if there's
something drastically different.
This is a good marker for us,because if I'm negotiating for
(12:49):
you on the green line and thenour budgeting comes back to say,
hey, we can really offer closerto the red line, I can severely
push back and say, hey, I knowthat Joe's got other interviews
that he's conducting and one ofthem is actually moving to offer
.
On friday, we run a really highrisk of losing him if we're at
this number, if I I think theultimate goal and how we've seen
(13:11):
it work out, the green linenumber, if it's in our budget
and it's your number that youwant, that's the path of least
resistance.
We're going to hit that.
Everybody's happy.
But most of the times what endsup happening is it's somewhere
in between and that's thereality of like the red line,
green line is it kind of fallsin that sweet spot.
It's not going to be at thenervous number.
It may not be at that top endnumber of 25 percent, 30 percent
raise that you're sort of likebanking on, but maybe somewhere
(13:34):
in the middle.
A 10 percent raise, 15 percentraise from your current offer.
You know enough to make itworthwhile.
Now everybody kind of feelsgood about what they're looking
at.
So you really need to sort ofmap that out.
I have the advantage of not anysort of proprietary information.
I have the advantage ofconversation.
I meet with people that do yoursame role, you know, in tens of
(13:55):
people, 15, 20 people, whateverit is.
I'll have multiple interviewswhere I can benchmark the
compensation line and so I canallow my hiring managers to
understand hey, if we're goingto hire this role, I've talked
to 20 senior community managers.
It's typically between X and Ythe best of them, right, the
best ones that are coming fromthose shops that we want to
target.
The compensation range isusually between X and Y.
(14:17):
So if we're, offering the lowerend of that.
That puts us in a disadvantagedposition.
Right, and this is kind of theexperience level and quality
that we're going to target.
But you know, candidates havethe same information and have
access to the same stuff that wedo.
There's no proprietaryrecruiting database, it's just
the luxury of conversation.
So if you're doing yourresearch, if you're having
(14:38):
conversations with others andthis is what I recommend to
everybody is you know you shouldbe connecting with people that
are in your role across everycompany.
Right, connect with everysingle community manager and
have conversations and be frank.
Hey, what you know you'veinterviewed recently
congratulations on the new jobthat you got.
What have you seen as the rangeof what people have been
offering you or what theconversations would sound like?
Now you can sort of benchmarkand you can create your
(14:59):
redlining, green line numberfrom there.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, absolutely, and maybe I'm misunderstanding here
.
So I want to ask just toclarify are these numbers that
you recommend sharing with arecruiter, or are these numbers
that you want to keep toyourself, or is it case
dependent maybe?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I mean, I think your best ally is a recruiter.
They've got direct access tothe hiring manager, they've got
proprietary insider intelligenceon like hey, here's what we
have hired before.
Here's kind of the flinchingpoint.
So you really want to make youknow a partner out of a
recruiter at the company.
So, the more information thatyou can share, the better.
This isn't, even in my case,the best scenarios I've worked
(15:34):
out where I'm open and honestabout my expectations.
I mean, even for Tencent thiswas the case.
It was like I'm pretty happy atGearbox and I don't have any
plans to leave.
I love it here, I've gotfriends here.
But if I am looking, this is mynumber and it's just being open
and honest about it.
It's not trying to play cardsclose to the chest, because that
ends up missing yourexpectations.
It hurts feelings, it wastestime.
(15:55):
So if you have a recruiter andyou trust that they've got your
interest at heart, share thatinformation and most of the good
recruiters will battle for thehigh number because it's less
negotiation.
If it's in their budget, theywant to get you what you want,
and if it's at the low number,they're going to battle against
it.
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
More importantly, so, yeah, share that information.
That's one thing I'm sort of.
I've sort of learned the pastfew months that I've been on the
job hunt about recruiters is Ihave, I have gotten the sense
many, many times that therecruiter is I don't know if I
want to go so far as to say onmy side, quote, unquote but the
dynamic isn't necessarily whatI've thought in the past that it
(16:31):
was.
In other words, the recruiteris on the side of the hiring
manager and the organization andit's them against me.
And I have gotten I knowexactly what you're talking
about there I've gotten thesense in several interactions
that I've had with recruitersand interviews and things like
that, that they are very much onmy side and saying hey, you
know, what can we do to get youon?
What can we do to help you?
(16:52):
I think the state the industryis in right now it for me, I
think it's come down to the factthat it's me versus a bunch of
other equally qualifiedcandidates.
I feel like I'm a goodcandidate in the jobs that I'm
going for and I just think thatthere are so many of us right
now.
You know, as you know, I'm in acommunity management, social
media management type role.
There are so many greatcommunity people on the market
(17:14):
right now that are out therelooking, and so it's funny that
you say that, because I do getthat same sense that, with you
saying that and you kind ofgiving a sampling of sort of the
KPIs that recruiters are goingfor, when you think about it, it
is a recruiter's job to fillthese positions, and so it does
them no good to draw hard linesand to do the opposite of what
(17:39):
you're saying.
I guess it would be a better wayto put it.
It does behoove them to havegood relationships with these
candidates, do what they can tohelp them, and things like that.
So that's, that's somethingreally good to think about.
You know, as we're all those ofus that are on the hunt keep
that in mind that you know therecruiter it's not necessarily
an adversarial relationship andin fact I would dare to say that
(17:59):
it's more likely that it's not.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I would be so bold to say that if you feel like your
recruiter is combative andthere's some sort of tension
there where you feel like youeither got to prove yourself
something or pay my interesthard, that's probably not
somebody that you want to beworking with.
I think, across the gamesindustry especially I mean I'm
(18:22):
connected to most, all of themand every single feedback that I
get from candidates of like, oh, I work with XYZ and I work
with her and I work with them, Imean it's always like the most
positive interaction, like theygave me the information.
They kept pounding the hiringmanager to get feedback, they
kept me in the loop.
That's what a good recruitershould do.
So you don't have to do thatchasing down, you don't have to
(18:44):
feel like a hiring manager isjust, you know, dancing around
you.
Hey, they told me I'm not agood fit, but not why.
A lot of times, if you have agood relationship with your
recruiter, they're going to giveyou insight Feedback.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's really great.
That's so valuable If you feellike you have to put attention
with your recruiter.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Good fit, I think, most especially in games
industry recruiters.
They want to hire diverse.
They want to hire, you know, ahuge range of skill sets,
different peoples, and you knowmost of them are super friendly.
So, and I mentioned corporaterecruiting versus you know, the
other side of agency recruiting.
Quick difference on those twoAgency recruiters are, you know,
(19:24):
sort of external to theorganization, their, their
vendor partners, essentially fororganizations to spread their
reach.
Um, you know, think of it like ascout to the market, right?
Hey, you go out like a, like aheadhunter, right, you go out,
this is the XYZ skillset we'relooking for and you guys go find
it.
Now they can go talk to amyriad of candidates, versus a
corporate recruiter that isrepresenting one company, and
(19:44):
all of my intentions are gearedtowards that singular studio.
But my scope might be a littlebit more limited in corporate
recruiting, perhaps because oflocation, the types of games
that we build, right, the genre,the platform.
We're really sort of like doingone thing or a couple of things
versus an agency recruiter thatmight represent a wash of skill
sets, right?
(20:05):
So you want to build yournetwork over with both agency
recruiters and corporaterecruiters, those that represent
the company directly and thosethat have access to a ton of
information and a ton ofcompanies.
They talk to a ton ofcandidates.
I think the combination of bothof them are going to really
help people understand them.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I cannot agree with you more.
I think, think you're right.
You know you got to spread your, spread your resources.
You know fairly widely andknowing as many corporate
recruiters and agency recruitersas you can, I think that's
great.
So we don't have a whole lot oftime, I don't want to keep you
too long, but I do want to giveyou a chance to talk about the
deep dark a little bit, becauseas we uh, as we discussed at
lunch the other day, we're bothsort of well.
(20:44):
Really, the biggest thing wetalked about was backpacks.
We're backpack nerds both of us, which I know for listeners
that may be a new term for you,but yes, us backpack nerds, we
are out there.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We're here and we're ready to wear backpacks.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, totally, but this is really cool.
So yeah, I mean, you know, ifyou want to talk about that a
little bit, uh, I'm sure we haveother backpack nerds uh
listening that may not even knowuntil now that they're backpack
nerds.
They may have they may notrealize that's a thing.
And now they're, now it'sdawning on them.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh hey, I'm a back, I'm a backpack nerd.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Wow, that explains a lot.
So tell us about it a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, so it's the gear that you have on you every
day and really it's sort of likean offshoot, maybe a less
intense prepper kind ofmentality.
It's it's your backpack, it'syour, you know your overcoat.
It's you know the, the knivesand wallet and cell phone.
(21:38):
It's all the stuff that youkeep and how you guard all that
stuff.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
It's kind of more like Boy Scouts, like always be
prepared, right yeah, and youkeep, and how you guard all that
stuff.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
it's kind of more like boy scouts, like always be
prepared, right, yeah, and andit's surprising, like as my life
has transitioned, I've got kidsnow and, um, I've actually
changed up my interestscompletely, you know, compared
to maybe 10 years ago.
So you know, really I startedgetting into this because of
that nature, like I had a bunchof student college gear right,
backpacks and just random stuffthat was unintentional, it was
just sort of around the houseand and I'm finding that like,
(22:07):
hey, this doesn't really fit mylife now.
Right, it was good when it was,um, but it doesn't have to mean
more expensive.
It.
It can mean more quality.
It can mean more expensive.
It can mean you know a certaintheme of stuff that you like to
put together all leather goodsor all, yeah, each color, right,
um, so that's kind of where thefun comes in is like
intentionally designing thestuff that you carry with you
all the time.
So that's really where this ismore of a passion project.
(22:29):
I, you know I've bought and youknow sold and you know, uh,
joined forums and communities ofeveryday carry goods, um, and
and I'm a nerd for for outdoorgear and I like hiking and
camping and stuff like that, um,but I kind of wanted to take a
swing at building my own thing.
So that's where the deep darkcame in.
It's kind of got this coollittle moniker to gaming.
I think you kind of get like anerdy feel with it, um, but it's
(22:52):
in.
It's meant to be a little bitmore elevated, um, it's supposed
to be hyper tough.
That's the stuff that I want tobuild.
You know, I don't want to keepspending money on backpacks.
I want one that can goeverywhere.
I take it to football, I takeit to work, um, I, you know,
it's my emergency bag in the car, um, and it's got everything in
it, so like just tough gear.
Um, it's got a little bit of anerdy flair to it from from time
(23:13):
to time.
And yeah, that's where thiscame in.
So then my first swing at itwas a backpack and it's like a
ruck style, um, weatherproof, uh, you know, rain resistant kind
of stuff.
And you know, I'm just tryingto see a little bit more about
how to bring in a market of likegamers.
Uh, I want, I want this groupto get out more.
I want this group to likeexperience other things as well.
I'm a gamer myself and and Ihave other interests and hobbies
(23:35):
and how can we kind of marrythose two worlds together?
So that's kind of where thespecial project came in.
We need, we all need to get outand touch grass every now and
then right, so yeah, so this isgood, myself included, right.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, myself included too, and you know, one reason
that I bring it up is because,um, I, I I did a post on
LinkedIn the other day that sortof basically addressing the
Microsoft layoffs that we had.
As we're recording this now,last week, Microsoft laid off
something like 650 people orsomething like that, and so you
know, when that happens, I kindof tried to impart some of the
(24:03):
things that I'm learning just ina LinkedIn post like hey,
here's a little advice foreverybody Don't freak out, stay
positive.
It's not your fault, it's fine.
One of the things that I cameup with was try to think of some
kind of a hobby or a sidehustle or something that you can
put some energy into, becauseit will give you a positive
feeling of progress, right, and,and that this sort of.
(24:24):
I know that I know you didn'tcreate this around that same
circumstance and around thatsame idea, but it but I think
it's a good reminder.
It's a good reminder to me atleast, to be thinking of other
things, like don't just bethinking about the game, the
game industry, job hunt.
Be thinking about, hey, what'ssomething I enjoy, that I can
put some time and some energyinto?
(24:45):
That is not only going toimprove my mental health, but
also it, who knows?
I mean it could turn intosomething.
You know what I mean.
So, um, I think that's a reallygood reminder of that.
You know, for me, this podcastis that thing.
And then also, you know I'm uh,as I told you, I'm getting into
consulting and doing freelancework and things like that, which
obviously scratches two itches,if you will, for me, right, um,
(25:09):
so that's great.
So be you know, be thinkingabout those kinds of things.
You know, listeners, that youcan, that you can get into, that
you can do.
That will, you know, not onlyimprove your mental health, but,
who knows, maybe turn intosomething, maybe turn into
income somehow.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Well, this is crazy because, like I posted that, hey
, this is like a passion projectI'm going to be working on.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So just you know, hey , just kind of keep your eyes
peeled.
It wasn't like an announcement.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Just I thought it'd be cool to throw it out and see
my journey and catalog the stuffthat I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
That's a great content strategy is building it
as you go, I think, over theyears, people, and especially in
games, we hold everything backuntil the beat right.
We hold everything back untilthe perfect moment, which in our
line of work, we should.
But I do think there'ssomething to be said for small
businesses, creators, founders,things like that.
As you're learning a new skillor you're building a thing,
(25:57):
create content around that andshow people what it's like to do
that.
Show them the good, bad, theugly, show them the mistakes
that are being made and howyou're fixing them.
I think there's a lot of valuethere.
Again, it all ties back intothe job search too.
If you're creating that content, you're showing not only can
you create content, but you'reshowing the things that you can
do.
You're showing the ways thatyou can learn from your mistakes
, teach yourself new skills,things like that, and all that's
(26:20):
hugely valuable.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I mean, I've got like three or four prototypes in my
closet right now of, like, thebags that I've created, and some
of them are hot garbage and Ihated it the minute that it
showed up and I spent money onit.
And you know, I'm spending allmy time sourcing materials and
trying different things, and soit's like it's not always going
to be successful and I'm not and, to be honest, I am terrible at
social media.
So none of this was for content.
Something that I could show mykids later on was like, hey,
(26:43):
here's kind of the journey thatI took.
You know, here's, here's howlong it took.
I mean, it was like a a year ofplanning and buying and cutting
stuff up and, you know, beatingit the hell up so I could see
how long it lasts.
And, um, you know, I think itshould be really cool to show
them that like hey, noteverything's an overnight
success.
And you know, I and I was goingto say like, when I posted that
(27:07):
announcement also, it was funnyhow many people that I hadn't
touched base with in months,years, had reached out and like,
oh man, I'm actually a backpacknerd myself and I'm a fan of
this gear, that gear.
I actually use them as aninspiration, and so they come
out the woodwork and now theyhave reasons to kind of
reconnect And's like, yeah, allthese extra little projects
inside things, um, you know,they can bring, bring your
(27:28):
network deeper and closertogether absolutely, and that's
what I was just gonna say.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
The value there is.
It's so much more than justcreating new income or, you know
, creating content or anythinglike that it's.
It really can be just about theprocess.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
It can just be about having the fun and doing the
thing and learning something new, you know it's really cool to
see your, your thing, yourcreation out there which is uh,
you know, like we talked aboutright, like I imagine, how cool
it is for an artist or adesigner to see their stuff
implemented and people areplaying it.
That's kind of kind of thefulfillment that I want to is
like hey, this and it was reallytough, and you know, I'm kind
(28:05):
of kind of putting my my tastesout there for people and
hopefully they like what theysee.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
No, absolutely so.
One of the goals of this showis to pass on helpful tips, you
know, that listeners canactually use in their job search
.
That's one of my, one of my biggoals.
I don't want this to just befluff, where I'm just bsing with
you know people for 30 minutesand then no one gets anything
out of it.
So, with with that in mind,what's something that a
candidate could do if theyreally wanted to impress you as
a recruiter?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I mean, it's obviously role dependent, but I
think if you have a solidunderstanding of what you do and
why, somebody would pay you todo that, if you could be trapped
in an elevator with someone andthat was your opportunity to
land the job.
What's that 15, 20 secondslooking like where you could
tell them here's what I do,right.
Here's who I am, here's what Ido, and this is why I'm the best
(28:51):
in my craft, right?
This is why I'm at the top ofmy field.
I think that's always superimpressive when somebody has a
really good grasp and confidenceover what they do.
And I mean, I've seen that frominterns, I've seen it from
folks that are still in school.
So this doesn't come with just20 years of experience and you
gotta be a director or something.
So having a really sure ideaabout who you are, what you do,
(29:16):
being able to discuss reallyconcretely why you're good at
what you do and why somebodywould wanna hire you, I think is
always really impressive.
So you gotta just continue topractice that elevator pitch.
That'll open up so many doorsfor you.
And as you get the doors open,some of the interviews you take
on will flame out.
Some of the investor pitchesyou do will flame out, but you
got to give yourself moreopportunities.
(29:37):
So that's what I always findsuper impressive is when
somebody has just a grasp onthemselves and you know very
sure about what they do andwhere they're solid.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
On the flip side, what's a common mistake that you
could see candidates makingthat you would want to point out
to them to avoid?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I think some people are like not proactive enough.
You know, that's one of thewhen I do career coaching with
people.
The proactive nature of yourjob search and of networking is
one thing that I continue tohammer on, because I see way too
many people, evenhyper-experienced people, and
it's not about introverts andextroverts, it's the strategy
that you're taking on.
(30:13):
You're just not planning right.
I think you're being too casualand passive with your job
search and your networking, andit doesn't have to be for any
intention, but if you are justwaiting for the job boards to
tell you what jobs are open andyou're just waiting for somebody
to pick up your applicationonce you apply and you're just
(30:33):
waiting for somebody to give youfeedback, I mean a lot of this
like waiting around.
Especially, like you mentioned,there's 20, 30 other people
that are stellar at my job andyou know we're all kind of
gunning for the same stuff.
Now Think about how you getyourself ahead of that race
right, it can be competitivewithout being.
I think some people feel likeyou're putting other people down
to put yourself up, and that'snot what it is right.
(30:54):
It goes back to you havingconfidence in what you do and
why you think you're great atwhat you do and why somebody
would want to talk or hire you,talk to you or hire you.
So yeah, just being too passivewith their job search, waiting
around a lot and then feelinglike it's the market that's not
yielding for them, when theycould follow up, when they can
connect proactively, when theycan get out there and meet folks
, because that's really wherethe opportunities are coming in
(31:15):
right now.
It's through your network, yep,I would agree wholeheartedly.
It's through your connections,it's through GDC.
It's very, very rarely nowgoing to be in a pool of 800
applicants that come into a jobposting.
So yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Well, all right.
So there you have it, guys.
Make sure you are networking,networking, networking and get
that elevator pitch down.
Get that, tell me aboutyourself.
Question down, usually thefirst one.
Get it down and you know, nailit and that'll go a long way,
arman.
Thank you again, man, I reallyappreciate it.
This has been so great.
I'll have you back on very soon.
So everybody expect that,expect to see Arman Javani
(31:50):
returns on the podcast very soon.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Really appreciate it, and I do leave my calendar open
, mostly on Fridays, for thesetypes of like career coaching,
and I do interviews with peopleoutside of the industry that
want to break in, or folks thathave been laid off or, you know,
students right now of like, hey, how can I get ahead of my my
uh cohort?
Um.
So I always set aside 30 minutelittle chats where we can go
over like the different types ofpeople you want to network with
and how to utilize LinkedIn.
(32:13):
Let's take a look at yourportfolio, let's put together a
target list of companies and howcan I share my network with you
.
So folks are more than welcometo sign up and schedule a call
if they need some.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Yeah, and I'll uh, I'll make sure everybody, as
you're hearing this, go togameindustryjobhuntcom and check
out the show notes for thisepisode.
I'll have links to armand'slinkedin and the deep dark
website and everything in therethat you need to know to reach
out to him.
So check that out for sure.
But, yeah, man, listen again.
Buddy, thanks again.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I really appreciate it awesome man, good to see you
again yep cheers.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
All right, everybody that is going to do it for this
episode of the Game Industry JobHunt Podcast.
I want to thank all of youagain for listening, really
appreciate it.
Of course, big thanks to thisepisode's guest, arman Javani
from Tencent.
Really appreciate it, man.
Thank you again.
Other than that, hey, connectwith me on LinkedIn.
Let's chat over there, let'sget to know each other.
Also, you can follow me onTwitter at Joe King,
(33:05):
j-a-u-x-k-i-n-g.
Visit the show websiteGameIndustryJobHuntcom for show
notes, links, all that goodstuff, resources, all kinds of
things that I think are going tobe really helpful.
So check those out In themeantime.
We will see you in the next one.
Thanks, guys.
Have a good one.
Bye, thank you.
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