269 Growing Your Brain Food Garden: Boosting Cognitive Health with a Plant-Based Diet and Lifestyle

Episode Transcript
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Farmer Fred (00:00):
Garden Basics with Farmer Fred is brought to you by
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Visit smartpots.
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(00:24):
If you're just a beginninggardener or you want good
gardening information, well,you've come to the right spot.
It's stroke awareness month andAlzheimer's awareness month.
And, interestingly, recentresearch shows that these two
brain diseases are related.
It's artery- clogging highcholesterol that's the common

(00:44):
factor.
Research shows that a wholefood, plant-based diet, which
includes brain food, can lowerhigh cholesterol and artery
blockages.
That can slow and even reverseheart disease, strokes and
Alzheimer's disease.
And the good news for gardenersis: you can grow that brain
food in your yard.
So what are the best vegetables, fruits, legumes and grains to

(01:07):
choose to keep your mind andbody in good shape?
That's our topic with Dr LauraVarich of FreshPhysician.
com.
Also on today's podcast, MasterGardener Gail Pothour talks
about some of those healthygreens to grow that usually
thrive in the cooler months ofthe year but also can survive
through a hot summer.
And, America's favorite retiredcollege horticultural professor

(01:28):
, Debbie Flower, tackles aquestion we get from Colorado.

A listener wants to know (01:31):
What perennial herbs can grow
outdoors in USDA zone 5B?
Well, there are some.
This won't take long.
It's all in today's episode 269, Growing Your Brain Food Garden
.
We're podcasting from BarkingDog Studio, here in the
beautiful abutilon jungle insuburban Purgatory.

(01:52):
It's the Garden Basics withFarmer Fred podcast, brought to
you today by Smart Pots and DaveWilson Nursery.
Let's go.
June is Stroke Awareness Month.
It's also Alzheimer's AwarenessMonth And there is new research
that shows these two braindiseases are related.

(02:13):
And there's a common factor.
It's cholesterol.
You're probably aware thatcholesterol buildup in our
vessels causes blockages withinthe arteries to our heart which
can lead to heart attack, heartfailure or, in my case,
quadruple bypass heart surgery.
But also it can lead toblockages in the brain which can

(02:33):
lead to a stroke.
And recent evidence has shownthat the same narrowing of our
vessels is also associated withAlzheimer's disease.
It seems that plaques andtangles that develop in
Alzheimer's disease are likelynot to cause the disease, but
are instead the brain's responseto the damage to that poor

(02:53):
blood flow.
Examination of the brains ofAlzheimer's patients have found
significant blockages in thearteries that bring blood to the
critical memory centers of thebrain.
In other words, it's verysimilar to heart disease and
stroke.
High blood cholesterol is amajor risk factor for the
development of Alzheimer'sdisease.
So is there a way to reversethat?

(03:15):
Yes, there is.
It's the brain food diet.
Maybe your mother or yourgrandmother told you about brain
food and you thought yeah,right.
Well, brain food does exist.
A whole food, plant-based diethas been shown to slow and even
reverse artery blockage in theheart, with 82% of people
demonstrating a measurablereversal in blockages of their

(03:35):
coronary blood vessels.
And this is the onlynonsurgical intervention to show
such a reversal.
And by simply lowering ourcholesterol diet and exercise we
can lower our risk of heartdisease, stroke and Alzheimer's
disease.
And that brings us to today'sguest, a woman after my own
heart, Dr Laura Varich of thewebsite FreshPhysician.

(03:58):
com.
She has a new e-book out onbrain health.
She has a free monthlynewsletter at her website,
freshphysician.
com.
Dr Laura Varich, i t's a caseof what we've been saying for

years (04:12):
Shut your mouth and move your feet.
You can reverse a heck of alot of diseases that run rampant
throughout society.
You've sent me some informationabout Alzheimer's that I found
very interesting, especially thecase of what's going on in
Africa about the gene.
A lot of people think thatAlzheimer's disease is mostly a

(04:34):
genetic disease.
And, as you pointed out, it'sactually only responsible for
1% of all cases.

Dr. Laura Varich (04:41):
Hi fred, so good to be back with you again.
Yeah, we think about a lot ofthe chronic diseases that we
have.
We think about it being relatedto our genes, but we do know
that across the board, it'sprobably less than 20% that the
risk of all the chronic diseasesthat we think about, like
diabetes and heart disease, onlyabout 20% is related to our

(05:05):
genes.
But it's interesting withAlzheimer's disease that we
think about the geneticcomponent, but really, as far as
a direct link from the gene tothe disease, it's only about 1%
of people that have Alzheimer'sdisease that it's directly
caused by the genes.
The gene that we know about andwe all keep hearing about is
that ApoE4 gene, and it's asusceptibility gene, which means

(05:29):
it makes us more susceptible tohaving Alzheimer's disease, but
it doesn't mean we're going toget Alzheimer's disease, and it
turns out that our lifestyle isa huge factor in whether or not
we will actually get Alzheimer'sdisease.
So so you're right.
There is some reallyinteresting studies that have
come out of studying thepopulation of Nigerians, and

(05:51):
what it showed was that thisresearch, which came out in 2014
, that in Nigeria they actuallyhave the highest prevalence of
that ApoE4 gene, the one thatmakes us more susceptible to
They have the highestprevalence of that gene across
the world of any population everstudied, but they have one of
the lowest risks of Alzheimer'sdisease across the globe.

That would indicate that there's something else
going on.
What is that?

It's interesting because if we think
about, we have to go back towhat does that gene do?
So this gene, this ApoE4 gene.
We all have ApoE genes.
One from our mom, one from ourdad.
What it does is it actuallycodes for a protein that carries
cholesterol in our body.
So this, this protein that wecan have is one of three types.

(06:44):
You can have the E2, the E3, orthe E4 gene.
Most people have the E3 gene.
And so this is our cholesterolcarrier.
It carries the cholesterol inour body and in our brain.
If you happen to get the E2type, you actually are at a
lower risk of things likeAlzheimer's disease, but if you
get the E4, you're at a higherrisk.

(07:04):
This gene creates a protein thatisn't as effective at dealing
with high levels of bloodcholesterol.
So if we have a lot ofcholesterol in our diet and in
our blood and we have that ApoE4gene, the protein cannot carry
the cholesterol away and it endsup getting deposited in
different areas.

(07:25):
So this is actually why, inNigeria, it isn't a problem,
because they actually eat aplant-centered diet.
Most of their diet is plantfood.
They eat very little animalfood, and I think we've talked
about this before.
But cholesterol only comes fromanimal food.
It doesn't come from plantfoods.
We think about it coming fromsomething that has a liver.

(07:47):
So we make cholesterol in ourbodies as humans.
It's made in our liver.
And so when we eat animals,we're eating the cholesterol
that the animal has made foritself, for its cells.
So it only comes from animalfoods.
So if you're not eating a lotof cholesterol, you don't have a
lot of cholesterol in yourbloodstream.
It doesn't matter if you havethis gene or not.

(08:09):
You're probably not going toget Alzheimer's disease.

I would imagine animal food also includes dairy
products like ice cream.

Right, exactly , yes, when we talk about animal
foods, we're talking about sortof all those animal products
which could be meat, but alsoeggs and dairy products, like
you said, ice cream and cheeseand things like that.

Oh, I know.

Nobody wants to hear that, but it's really a
matter of degree, right?
Our bodies can take care ofsome cholesterol, and we do.
I mean our bodies are makingsome as it is, and we know how
to take care of cholesterol.
We use a bit of cholesterol andwe know how to get rid of some
cholesterol.
But there are ways we can helpour body out with that.

Yeah, you point out that people who eat no animal
meat and that includes no beef,no pork, no chicken and no fish,
they have half the risk ofdeveloping dementia.

Right, and it probably is.
This is definitely a part ofthat.
There's other factors we'refinding out about now, too, that
have to do with diets high inanimal products.
Additional factors that we'refinding out about that are
determined by the way we cookour meat and things like that.
That also can contribute to it.

(09:27):
So probably one of the mainways that animal meats in our
diet are affecting thatincreased risk of dementia is
through the cholesterol.

But, as you point out, by eating more plant foods
we could actually reverse that,unclog those clogged arteries,
for example.

Right, As you mentioned, there has been
studies that we've known backfrom the 1990s that have some of
that cholesterol, those plaquesin our arteries, can be
reversed.
And again, medications don't dothat.
Like you said, only if you wereto have surgery could you get
rid of some of those plaquesthat actually we've shown that a

(10:07):
healthy diet can do that.
So eating a lot of plant foodscan actually do that.
It can help get rid of thatcholesterol in our vessels.
So that's pretty amazing.

To tie this all together with a nice, pretty
little bow, you can grow thosegreat plant foods in your own
yard.

Yes, there's some different things that we
can do with our diet to try tolower our cholesterol levels.
So of course one of those isgoing to be eating less meat and
less animal products.
Another one of those, whichsort of ties in with that, is
eating less saturated fat.
It turns out saturated fatactually raises our blood
cholesterol levels even morethan eating cholesterol does.

(10:46):
Surprisingly, that comes fromunfortunately, i'm sorry to say
this, Fred, that also comes fromhigh fat dairy, like cheese.
We don't have saturated fat,really, in the plant world much,
except in some of our tropicaloils.
So you see those showing up insome, such as paleo foods and
things now.
But things like coconut oil andpalm oil actually have a lot of

(11:08):
saturated fat.
Coconut oil actually has moresaturated fat than butter does.
So that's something we reallydon't want to be eating a lot of
.
Again, small amounts ofcholesterol, small amounts of
saturated fat are fine, but wedon't want to get really high
amounts.
But then we can also do somethings to decrease our
cholesterol levels by eating,instead of eating animal foods,

(11:29):
eating more plant foods.
There's a couple of thingshappening.
So we talked about cholesterolgetting laid down in the vessels
that lead to our brain, right,fred?
That can, similar to heartdisease, decrease blood flow to
our brain, to our cells in ourbrain, and that that can cause
some changes to happen in ourbrain, like amyloid plaxtiform,

(11:52):
and there'll be neurofibrillarytangles.
but all that is a part of therebeing less blood flow to our
brain, but also another.
A second way that cholesterolworks is that it actually
remember how we said that if youhave the ApoE4 gene, the
cholesterol isn't being carriedaway, it actually gets deposited
in the brain tissue It itselfand causes inflammation in the

(12:12):
brain.
So a couple of things we wantto do lower our cholesterol so
that we don't block up ourvessels and we don't get
cholesterol laid down in ourbrain itself and cause
inflammation, so we can lowerour cholesterol levels.
And the other thing we can dois add more phytonutrients.
Now we know phytonutrients wetalked about those before on
your podcast and those are plantnutrients And they have an

(12:35):
ability to decrease inflammationAnd there are certain types
that actually can get into ourbrain and can lower inflammation
levels And that can alsodecrease the incidence of
So you need a couple of thingshappening.
You need these changes likelower blood flow and cholesterol
being laid down in there, andthen the amyloid that forms in

(12:56):
our brain that we've heard aboutdoesn't get cleared away, and
both those things are causinginflammation.
If we can attack it from twodifferent points we can decrease
the inflammation and we canimprove the blood flow to our
brain We actually can have areally good result and not end
up with Alzheimer's disease.
It's been shown that people onautopsy it's very hard to tell

(13:16):
if people have actually have hadAlzheimer's disease or didn't
in their life, because they canhave the same appearance in
their brain.
But it's gonna be a matter ofhow did your brain react to that
?
How much inflammation?
So plant foods can really helplower inflammation.

You've heard me talk about the benefits of smart
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Smart pots are sold around theworld and are proudly made 100%
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Smart pots is the oldest andstill the best of all the fabric
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years.

(15:25):
Let's get back to ourconversation with Dr Laura
Varich of FreshPhysician.
com and find out some more ofthose crops that you can grow in
your backyard that are brainfood.
So let's talk about some ofthose crops that you can grow in
your yard that contain brainprotective antioxidants, and I

(15:47):
would think the usual culpritswould be at the top of the list
things like leafy vegetables.

You're absolutely right.
Leafy green vegetables arenumber one for brain health and
probably for our health ingeneral.
Right, there is leafy greenvegetables kind of do it all.
They have it all.
We know that they lower our LDLcholesterol levels that we were
just talking about, and theyalso have some of these special
antioxidants that can make itinto our brain.

(16:16):
So leafy green vegetables, yeah, you know.
And the good news about growingthose too we talked a little
bit about this last time too iswhen you grow those and pick
them fresh, you get to retainall those antioxidants, all
those anti-inflammatorychemicals that are in there that
could be lost if this, if yourfood's traveling over you know

(16:37):
thousands of miles to get to youand taking days and days.
So you get to pick them fresh.
They're going to have a lot ofthose antioxidants.
So, yeah, leafy greens are oneI like to grow as close as I can
to year-round so that I canpick them and then eat them
right away.

Depending on where you live, that is a possibility
for many gardeners.
And even in coastal Californiayou can grow most leafy greens,
The lett uces, the cabbages,year-round.
But if you have a hot summerclimate it gets a little bit
more difficult to grow leafygreens.
And we talked about this withMaster Gardener Gail Pothour

(17:11):
recently about how to grow leafygreens in the summertime and
which ones have the best stayingpower before they bolt.
At the end of our little chatI'll be playing that portion of
that talk we had with Gail aboutthe leafy greens that can grow
well in a hot summer climate.
One of the keys is, if you dolive in a hot summer climate, is
to grow it in the shade.

(17:32):
That really helps out a lot,And a lot of vegetables that are
out there that help the brainout too are also in a hot
climate considered cool seasoncrops like broccoli, cauliflower
and kale.

Exactly, i'd probably put that as number two
on our list for brain healthyfoods.
And you're right, a lot ofthese are ones we consider cool
season vegetables.
So again, it's going to bedifficult to carry maybe growing
those for us through the summermonths for a lot of us.
But yeah, i'd say gettingcruciferous vegetables in as
much as we can, broccoli,cauliflower, kale, cabbage,

(18:10):
collards, all those things.
They have a substance calledsulforaphane which we may have
heard of And it's been shownthat it can protect against our
brain's malfunctioning and ourbrain kind of our cognitive
level decreasing over time.
So they're really great forthat.
One way that I like to keep thecruciferous vegetables going

(18:30):
and the sulforaphane, fred, isto grow microgreens, and I know
you're a fan of this too.

Yes, indeed, we've talked about that in the past
too.
And I'll have a link in today'sshow notes about one particular
episode we did aboutmicrogreens.
But yeah, that actually cansolve a whole heck of issues for
gardeners who like to makesalsa, for example, in the
summertime, using fresh tomatoesand peppers and fresh garlic.

(18:58):
Well, there's the problem withcilantro, which doesn't grow
well in hot climates.
It's really a cool season crop,but you can grow cilantro in
the summertime by just growingit as a microgreen and using
that as the cilantro in any ofyour salsa recipes, and it's
just a matter of harvesting itwhen it's only an inch tall.

Exactly, and it has a ton of flavor.
It's amazing.
And if people haven't tried it,one of my favorite things to do
and I keep these on rotation isbroccoli sprouts, because they
have about 100 times thesulforaphane, that brain healthy
and anti cancer ingredient.
Then does the mature broccoliper weight.
So it's amazing And it grows.

(19:37):
You can have yourself somebroccoli sprouts in about five
days, ready to harvest.
They're a really fast turnover,so that's a really great way to
kind of keep them going.

There's an easy way to grow it too.
Excuse me While I reach to theback and grab my box of seeds.
I'm never far from my box ofseeds.
In this box of seed packets,from Johnny's Seed Company.

(20:10):
They're a seed catalog,johnny's Selected Seeds.
I have two large containers ofmicrogreen mixes that make it
easy to grow microgreens fromsome of the best, healthiest
greens available.
There is this one here.
It's called a kale-fetti mixfor microgreens That contains

(20:31):
many different varieties of kalethat you're only going to grow
to, like I say, an inch or twoinches tall.
The other is called a rainbowsprinkles mix for microgreens
and it contains chard and beetseeds.
Again, you'd sprinkle it on asurface, maybe in a 12" by 12
flat, and on some seed-startingmix, water it in, put it in a

(20:55):
shady location, let it grow andwhen it gets about an inch or
two tall, just use your scissors, cut it off, take it to the
kitchen.
You can even grow it in thekitchen, for that matter.

Yeah, absolutely, and those are going
to be beautiful.
I'm picturing this rainbow mix.
That's going to make somebeautiful, beautiful microgreens
.
You'll feel like you're in afancy restaurant when you dig
into those.

One of my favorite greens to grow and it does
fairly well in the summertimehere, in fact.
And in shady areas it doessurvive the summer without
bolting.
It is chard, Swiss chard, andchard comes in a wide variety of
interesting colors.
So it always pays to grow awide variety of chard just for
the great mix of color, andchard is delicious either raw or

(21:35):
cooked And for a dependableyear around green in hot climate
areas.
It's hard to beat chard.

That sounds like a great idea, And I have
one.
Can I mention one of myfavorites to grow in the
summertime?
I'm in Florida, Fred, as youknow, and we have summers that
are similar to yours in heatlevel probably, but we have a
lot more humidity.
But one that I have found thatI can grow through most of the
summer is that I use instead ofa lettuce because lettuce is

(22:06):
very hard to grow here.
It's called becana cabbage.
It's B E K A N A.
It's a cabbage, but it's aloose leaf and it's a very kind
of soft leaf and I can use itall summer long instead of
lettuce and it grows really,really well.
So we do want a little bit ofshade.
It probably couldn't take fullsun all day long, but it's a

(22:27):
great one to try.
I try to recommend it toeverybody because it was a game
changer for me.

Yeah, it is an Asian cabbage and you may know
it as Tokyo Becana and it's across between Napa Cabbage, bok
choy and lettuce.
And there are some good Asianseed companies out there that
have a wide variety of healthygreens to grow that fall into
the category of Chinese cabbagesand, of course, bok choy, which

(22:55):
is one of my favorites, also togrow in the cool season.
But I'll have to try thatbecana or becana type of Asian
cabbage.

Yeah, i don't know why, but it seems to me
that a lot of the Asianvarieties and maybe in some of
these areas they have a lot ofheat too, but a lot of these
varieties seem to do well in theheat.
I'm growing more and more Asianvarieties of different things
right now celery and, like yousaid, a lot of the greens and
things and they seem to do muchbetter here.

(24:53):
Let's get back to ourconversation with Dr Laura
Varich, a fresh physician dotcom.
And there's plenty of foodsthat you can grow in your garden
that aren't greens, that wouldbe considered brain food.
Fred, i wanted to mention a couple of things
you can grow in the garden, someof those we can be growing now.

(25:14):
Beans are also really high onthe list of healthy foods for
the brain and really healthyfoods for all around for
basically preventing all kindsof chronic disease and for
increased longevity.
So beans and legumes are reallygreat for that, and I know at
least here I've just recentlyplanted edamame.

(25:34):
I also do field peas orblack-eyed peas this time of
year and they really like theheat, and so those are some that
we can try growing also thistime of year.

Edamame, of course, is soy, and that's particularly
good at lowering the badcholesterol levels, the LDL
cholesterol levels.
Another favorite I'm going tostart harvesting, i would say in
the next week or two, unlessthe robins beat me to it, are
blueberries, and berries havebeen shown to decrease cognitive

(26:04):
decline as well.

Yes, and I'm glad you mentioned that.
They are definitely one of thetop foods.
They show up on the list forbrain health really at the top
all the time for these differentlists, and berries really are
super important for helping ourbrain out.
They seem to have some.
They, for one, have a lot offiber in them, which is great,

(26:26):
and they also have some of thesephytonutrients or phyto
chemicals that are brainprotective.
So, yeah, i recommend gettingberries in every day if you can.
They are just so good for youand for your brain.
And blueberries top the list,of course, and but really all
the berries are good in this way.

Every morning I start off as healthy as possible
with a high fiber cereal andI'm topping it with a cup and a
half of blackberries,raspberries and blueberries as
the sweetener with almond milk.
I'm still alive.

I think it explains a lot.
Fred, you sound super sharptoday, so you must have had your
healthy breakfast.

Yeah, i did.
Well, okay, What about herbsand spices?

Yeah, herbs and spices, again, are super
brain healthy foods.
They are again good for us inall kinds of ways because, as we
mentioned before, i think, whenwe were in our last podcast
together herbs and spices have areally highly concentrated
amount of these phytochemicalsin them.
It's those strong flavors thatyou taste are actually the

(27:33):
phytochemicals, and so herbs andspices have a ton of them in
them.
So if we can get those into ourdiet, the more the better every
day, and I think about when I'mmaking recipes if it calls for
a certain amount of herbs andspices, i double, triple, you
know, however much if you likeflavor, keep adding it in,
because those are really greatfor us And particularly for

(27:54):
brain health.
A couple that I don't grow inmy garden, but saffron and
turmeric, are two that have beenshown to be really effective
for brain health too.
So turmeric though, i've grown.
Have you grown that before?

Fred, no, i have never grown it.
And saffron, I think is, youwould need a lot of patience and
a lot of time.

Yes, you sure would.
You sure would?
You're picking all those little, those little stamens, out or
whatever and collecting those.
So yeah, saffron is a tough oneto grow.
You might want to buy that one,but turmeric you can grow in
the garden.
Turmeric is.
It's a relative of the gingerplant.
It grows very much like ginger.
It has a tuber that growsunderground that you can pick

(28:38):
and you can, just after you,harvest them.
You can just put them in yourfreezer if you'd like, and then,
when you need some, you canjust grate it and use it in
whatever you'd like.
So that's a good way to getthat in.

Yeah, and it's pretty easy too with turmeric is
to plant the tubers in theground at about four inches,
with one or more of the sproutedparts facing upward, And they
do like you say.
it's just like growing ginger.

Makes a pretty plant.
A couple other things tomention that we're probably not
growing in our garden.
Some of us might be growingsome of these, i don't know.
But a couple other things forbrain health, that sort of, that
sort of fill out, what we callthe neuro nine, are whole grains
really good at loweringcholesterol.
We've probably all heard aboutoats being great for this, but

(29:23):
really all whole grains are goodfor this.
Nuts, particularly Brazil nuts,and pecans if we get those in
our diet are really great And weknow these are super heart
healthy too.
They're acting in the same way,i think, with our vessels that
are predicting our heart andprotecting our brain.
Flax seeds good for everything.
So we can get some ground flaxseed in our diet really good for

(29:44):
our brain.
And also tea, the one real teathat comes from the camellia
sinensis plant.
That's green tea, black tea,oolong tea, white tea.

That's also good at lowering cholesterol and even
acting in directly on our brainto lower cognitive issues And
the flip side of all of this yes, you can certainly grow a whole
yard full of very healthy cropsis quit shopping in the middle
of the grocery store and stickto the edges where the fresh

(30:15):
foods are, because and we'relearning more and more about
ultra processed foods- Yeah,yeah, for sure, fred.

See, yeah, that you're exactly right.
When we think about improvingour diet, a lot of times we're
thinking about some of these.
You know, we start talkingabout these whole food, plant
based diets and things we'rethinking about.
Oh no, i got to get rid of themeat, but really one of the
biggest problems with the dietthat we have right now is all
those ultra processed foods,like you said, we eat now.
In America, adults eat.

(30:44):
About 60% of our diet is ultraprocessed foods and for kids
it's 70%.
That's from age two on up.
70% of the diet is ultraprocessed foods.
And so, yeah, it's becomingmore and more clear in the
research that these foods areextremely unhealthy for us.
So, yeah, getting to more ofthese whole foods and actually
doing some cooking is going toimprove our health a lot.

People ask me well, who are these doctors that
helped you out so much?
I mean you in my case.
It was a quadruple bypasssurgery at the age of 61.
This was about 11 years ago.
How did they help you out?
Well, i like to say that, yes,the general practitioner thought
there was a problem.
The cardiologist verified therewas the problem.

(31:27):
The surgeon basically, I don'tknow, I think he took a chain
saw to my chest, but I wasknocked out at the time.
He took a chain saw to my chest, opened it up and clipped out
the cholesterol filled arteriesand replaced it with something
else that's in there thatsupposedly, according to him,
was a spare that we carry forsuch instances (a mammary
artery).
But the person who really helpedme out and made me see the

(31:50):
light was a nurse.
A nurse who was in charge ofthe cardiac rehab center at Lodi
Hospital.
And, by the way, if you ever goin for heart surgery and they
suggest you attendrehabilitation sessions
afterwards, take advantage of it.
Don't settle for over the phoneor computer sessions.

(32:11):
Try to make it an in-personsession.
That is what really helped meout a lot.
It was going three times a weekfor three months after surgery,
doing some exercise on anexercise bike along with getting
the A1C levels, blood pressurechecked and a lot of other
things.
But what really set this apartwas the nurse who was in charge

(32:34):
of this rehabilitation clinicwas a big fan of eating your way
to health.
And her whole educationalprocedure to the patients was,
instead of having that Big Macor that commercial hamburger,
try some other forms of meatthat are made out of vegetables.

(32:56):
Or, instead of salt, try someof these no salt combinations.
Or, instead of buying breadfrom the bakery shelf, go to the
freezer section and buy yourbread there, because that's
whole sprouted bread thatactually has the fiber intact.
And that's one thing about thiswhole talk about health is the

(33:18):
amount of fiber in the food.
And usually fiber can last infood despite its shipping as far
as grocery store food.
But, like you mentioned,phytonutrients, they're going to
disappear in time because thehealthiest food you can eat is
the food you grow yourself,because it's going to go from
your backyard to your kitchenand to your mouth.
Fiber can last a while.
The problem with a lot ofprocessed foods that say they

(33:39):
have fiber, it's broken up fiber.
There's two kinds of fiber.
There's the insoluble fiber,that cleans out your innards,
and then there's soluble fiber,which does a wonderful job of
cleaning up clogs in yourarteries.
And soluble fiber can easily bedestroyed by processing.
And that bread that you buy,that frozen sprouted bread that

(34:02):
you would buy from the freezersection, is going to have a lot
of soluble fiber.
So if you want to increase thefiber in your diet, make sure it
is also has soluble fiber.
Okay, i'm done.

Yeah, I totally agree with you.
Yes, and that's where you knowwhat we were talking about.
Our whole grains and even ourbeans, both of those have a lot
of soluble fiber in them, likeyou said, and soluble fiber is
kind of interesting because itsort of forms.
No fiber is absorbed by ourbody, It goes through our GI
tract, our intestines and thenexits, but the soluble fiber is

(34:38):
really interesting because itactually forms this kind of a
gel in our intestine and itactually hides things like
excess sugar and excess fats andcholesterol and carries them
out of our body.
So, yeah, having a lot ofsoluble fiber in our diet is a
great way to lower ourcholesterol.
So, yeah, more legumes and morewhole grains.

(35:01):
And there's a lot more wholegrains out there now that we
didn't used to see.
A lot of these ones that we'rehearing about.
People are calling them ancientgrains, grains that haven't
been on our shelves, that areshowing up again now.
I don't know if you've triedsome of these out, but we have
lots of whole grain.
People have seen quinoa, but wehave millet and sorghum and
amaranth and lots and lots ofadditional grains are showing up

(35:23):
on the shelves now and they'rereally fun to try.

We should point out , too, that people who are
concerned about their sources ofprotein may think that we need
meat for protein because weneed protein.
Yes, you do need protein, butthere's a heck of a lot of
protein in a lot of legumes likethe edamame you're growing.

Absolutely yes .
Yeah, people who eat a wholefood plant-based diet.
If they are exclusively wholefood plant-based meaning, i
guess you might call that vegan.
It's a little bit different inthe ideology, but if you're
eating only plant foods you doget plenty of protein in your
diet.

(36:02):
In America we eat about twicethe protein that is recommended.
People on a whole foodplant-based diet eat a little
bit less than that, but they getplenty of protein.
And I like to think about haveyou ever seen Fred, the movie
The Game Changers?

No.

Okay, this is a documentary that I think you
and your listeners may reallywant to see.
It's a great documentary.
It has people like ArnoldSchwarzenegger and Jackie Chan
producing it, but it talks todifferent kinds of athletes and
a lot of them are plant-basedand the movie shows basically
how they upped their game bygoing plant-based.

(36:41):
The world's record-holdingstrong man, his name is Patrick
Baboumian.
I'm probably not pronouncingthat correctly, but somebody
asked him.
They said how can you be asstrong as an ox eating only
plant foods?
He said have you ever seen whatan ox eats?

What does he eat?
Grass, right?

That ox is eating plants all day long, so
the important thing to know isthat the meat is kind of the
middle man right between theprotein which is coming from the
greens and us, and so we don'tneed to eat meat to get enough
protein.
Even a cow and an ox makes ahuge amount of muscle right by
just eating plants, so we can dothat too.

Speaking of documentary films that can make
a difference in the way you eat.
I think many people areprobably familiar with Forks
Over Knives, which is aplant-based diet documentary,
and Dr Caldwell Esselstyn was inthat movie from the Cleveland
Clinic, and he's in another onetoo, called Eating or Eating You
Alive, which talks about hisown personal issues of getting

(37:51):
healthy and discovered that aplant-based diet can certainly
make you more healthy.
And we should point out toothat it's not just diet alone,
it's exercise.
But, as I found out, you can'tout-exercise a bad diet.

Yeah, that's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
They're both really importantfor our health.
but you're right, If you eatBig Macs all day long and then
go out and go for a bike ride,you're not going to be able to
counteract that.

In the podcast you're listening to, Dr Laura
Varich of FreshPhysician.
com is touting the benefits ofgrowing greens year-round for
better health, especially forbrain and heart health.
The problem is, as we discussedin the podcast, summer heat in
many areas of the country maythwart your efforts at growing
great greens like lettuce, kale,cabbage, spinach and other

(38:48):
greens.
It causes them to bolt, itforms seed heads and the leaves
turn bitter.
Well, there's a way around that.
In fact, there are several waysto grow nutritious greens in
the summer as well as in thecold of winter.
In the latest Beyond the GardenBasics newsletter and podcast,
several gardening experts offertheir tips for growing cool
season vegetables in the heat ofthe summer, as well as growing

(39:11):
amazingly nutritious microgreensyear-round.
It's all in the Beyond theGarden Basics newsletter and
podcast.
It's currently available andit's free.
If you're already a newslettersubscriber, it's probably in
your email waiting for you rightnow, or you can start a
subscription.
It's free.
Find the link to the Beyond theGarden Basics newsletter and

(39:33):
podcast in today's show notes orat Substack, and you can sign
up for the newsletter at thelink at our homepage,
gardenbasicsnet.
Let's get back to our chat withDr Laura Verich of
FreshPhysician.
com.
Let's talk about your story,because how did you get involved

(39:53):
with this?
We're a medical doctor andrealize that maybe these
prescriptions aren't such agreat idea.
Maybe there needs to be someother changes.

Yeah, well, my story is that I actually
practiced pediatric radiology soimaging for kids for basically
my whole career, and then I wasnoticing, though, that in the
last 10 years or so, i hadnoticed that the health of kids
has really changed.
You know, the things we'reseeing happening to kids now.
The diseases that they have area lot of.

(40:25):
The diseases didn't used tohappen in kids.
Really They were very rare, andnow they've become a common
place And these diseases arehappening earlier and earlier.
So, of course, we know aboutobesity and diabetes and things
like that, but also things likeautoimmune disease happening at
much earlier ages in kids.
So I wanted to look into whatwas causing that.

(40:46):
I thought, well, if this hashappened, if I've seen it happen
over 10 years, it's obviouslysomething that we're doing that
we can change.
It's not our genes changingthat quickly, right?
So when I looked into it, theresearch really makes it very
clear that it is really aboutour lifestyle and primarily our
diet, And that's what the causeis.
And I told you that kids arenow eating 70% of their diet is

(41:09):
ultra processed foods, 30% isanimal foods.
That leaves really 0% beingwhole plant foods, and this is
really where the problem lies.
So that's when I left mypractice and said I'm going to
do all I can to try to get theword out because and I think
there's quite a few physiciansand allied health professionals
that are doing the same thingjust really trying to get the

(41:30):
word out to people that we canmake a huge difference with our
diet.
It really our food and what wedrink are the only fuel of our
body, right, they're just thatimportant.
So, yeah, that's how I made thechange And I started a website
and I tried to do some speakingas much as I can to try to get
out and tell people about whatwe can do with our, with our

(41:50):
lifestyle.

And one more note too.
I mean for exercise you don'thave to be like me and ride your
bike 125 miles a week.
I do it because it reduces thestress.
It's the cheapest psychiatristI know It's.
I call it cycle therapy, Butgardening is exercise.
Gardening, doing things by hand, pulling weeds, shoveling,

(42:12):
moving that wheelbarrow aroundwith mulch, that's great
exercise.

Absolutely.
And there's this these areas onearth.
I don't know you've probablyheard about Fred, the blue zones
, We may have even talked aboutit before but the areas in the
earth on the earth where peoplelive the longest.
And in those areas people areliving traditional lives.
So they're eating more wholefoods, particularly whole plant
foods, and they're exercising,but they're not going to the gym

(42:37):
and they're not biking ahundred and 20 miles.
That's amazing, But what theyare doing is, like you said,
they're maybe walking to theirneighbor's house, they're out in
the working in their yard andtending their garden, And that's
the kind of exercise that if weget that kind of exercise into
our life as much as possible, ifwe can get some of that kind of
exercise into our life everyday, it makes a huge difference.

By the way, if I ever run for president, and I
don't plan to, but if I ever runfor president I think I would
make my primary goal buildingsafe bicycle lanes throughout
America to get people into adifferent mode of transportation
to lead even healthier lives.

Yeah, i agree with that.
It can be very dangerous to beout on the road with cars on
your bike, and we've seen that alot, i think, particularly when
I was living in the Bay Area.
There's a lot of injuries thathappen that way.
So, yeah, i agree with you, weneed to have safe ways to travel
bike paths that aren'tnecessarily right there with
cars or there's some protectionbetween the two.

Exactly what America needs are more class one
bike trails which are separatefrom roadways.
But don't get me started onthat.
That's for a different podcast.

I agree, because I could go down that
road myself, so to speak.

Yes.
Tell us about your website,freshphysician.
com.

Yeah, so I have a website that has a lot of
great brain and otherwise heartand etc.
Healthy recipes.
I've got, like you mentioned, ihave created a bunch of health
documents by reviewing all theliterature, the current
literature, and I just put out anew brain health e-book that is
available there, and I have anewsletter that's free.

(44:18):
I encourage anybody that'slistening, if you're at all
interested in this sort oftopics, to go ahead and sign up
for the newsletter, because itcomes out monthly and it's got a
lot of the sort of latest andgreatest research and ideas
about how to improve our health.

And doing it as naturally as possible.
I don't recall seeing any adsfor vitamins or supplements on
your website.

Yeah, i really do believe in as much as we can
trying to do get ourselves tohealth through healthy, real
food.
I don't believe in usingsupplements unless they're
absolutely necessary.
There are a couple that I thinksupplements nutrients of
concern in our Western world,and probably actually even

(45:03):
beyond that, are a couple ofvitamins that we need to get in
as supplements Probably ourvitamin D, which most of us in
America don't get enough of evenif we're in sunny places, and
also vitamin B12, which ifyou're on a completely whole
food plant based diet, you needto have in your diet.
But we even know that as we getolder, we absorb that vitamin

(45:25):
less and less and it's importantfor our nerves, like our brain
and our blood cells, so superimportant.
Most people recommendsupplementing those two things
But, yeah, no, in general Idon't recommend supplements.
I think we can get most of whatwe need through our diet.

FreshPhysician.
com is the website.
It's a place to grow yourhealth.
Dr Laura Verich has been ourguest and Dr Laura thanks so
much for your time today.

Thank you, fred.
It was a pleasure, as always.

So what are the lettuce and greens that you can
grow in hot summer climates?
Let's revisit a chat we hadwith Master Gardener Gail
Pothour, who talks about thatvery subject on a previous
edition of The Garden Basicspodcast.
All right, now we come tonumber nine on the list of the
10 most popular gardenvegetables, and it's a cool

(46:19):
season crop.
In California.
If you live in a very mildclimate or the Bay Area of
California, you can certainlygrow all the lettuce varieties
you want lettuce And I can seewhy people grow lettuce, and I
hope that you try somethingdifferent than iceberg.
Iceberg, to me, is the mostnutritionless, tasteless lettuce

(46:40):
that has fallen into massmarketing because there's a lot
of leaf lettuce varieties thatare so much tastier and also can
withstand heat better thaniceberg.

Gail Pothour (46:52):
Yeah, I was going to say iceberg doesn't do that
well in the Sacramento area.
We're too hot.
And so we generally recommendto try a loose leaf or a romaine
or one of the butterhead types.
But if you have to have aniceberg, pick that up at the
store.
Don't try growing it.
It won't do that well here.

Yeah, it's a waste of space.
As a matter of fact now I havebeen on a lifelong gardener
search for a lettuce variety, aloose leaf lettuce variety that
can take the heat.
Some are better than others asfar as getting, maybe through
July, but it seems like whenJuly turns into August they all
start bolting.

Right, and actually several years ago we
did an experiment two years in arow at the Horticulture Center,
because we get this question alot: Why can't I grow lettuce in
the summer?
So we thought, okay, let's findsome varieties and grow them
through the heat of summer andsee how they do.
First off, you need to startwith some varieties that are

(47:51):
heat resistant, like Jerichothat was bred in Israel, so it's
a little more heat resistant,and we tried half dozen or so
different varieties.
We monitored when we plantedthem how many weeks it was
before they started bolting.
Some did better than others,some did pretty well.
But what we found is you need tomulch heavily to keep the

(48:14):
moisture in, keep them wellwatered, shed during their
entire lifespan in the summerand then be prepared as soon as
one starts to bolt, take it outand then replant with another
transplant.
So kind of a successionplanting It is possible, but
it's a lot of work.
Let's say it takes a lot ofwater and shading and monitoring

(48:36):
.
Not sure if it's worth it.
Or grow it in the shade if youhave a shady location, but often
it's not just the sunlight,it's the heat, and even in the
shade in Sacramento we can befairly warm in the summertime,
so it's a tough thing to do.

The closest green I've found that can be grown
year round and especially if youdo it in the shade, it does
okay here, is Swiss chard.

Right, yeah, that can be grown year round.
I have done it in an area of myyard where it got some
afternoon shade in thesummertime And it was able to
over summer.
But yeah, any of the otherleafy greens are going to be a
little tough.
One of my favorites oh absolutefavorite lettuce is called

(49:22):
pomegranate crunch.
It's a red romaine and it isvery good.
I get it as pelleted seeds,which makes it a little bit
easier to germinate.
Lettuce can have a difficulttime germinating.
Lettuce does need light inorder to germinate, so don't
plant the seed too deeply.
Red seeds don't have thatproblem, but I think if

(49:45):
sometimes people have difficultygetting lettuce to germinate
because maybe they buried it toofar, it needs light.
It's one of the few vegetablesthat needs light to germinate.

And I believe it's one of those seeds that will not
germinate in heat period Rightright If you tried sowing
lettuce seed in the summer,maybe for a fall crop.

if your soil temperature is too warm, the
lettuce seed can go dormant.
So if you're also starting itindoors, whereas I use a heating
mat to get a lot of my seeds togerminate, you don't use a
heating mat for lettuce, becausethe soil will be too warm and
lettuce seeds will go dormant inheat.

Some of the varieties that have been
recommended as heat tolerantlettuces that I've grown over
the years and they're barelyheat tolerant are Black Seeded
Simpson and Deer Tongue.
They're pretty good but, like Isaid, they do eventually bolt,
and if you're so, if you'relooking for a first of all, i
think one good rule to rememberis, if you want lettuce to last

(50:45):
in the yard as long as possible,grow loosely varieties, not
head lettuce.

Right, and of the ones that we did in our heat
tolerant trial, the ones thatdid well.
besides, Jericho was Year RoundBronze.
it's an oak leaf and it waslate to bolt in the summer, so
it actually did very well.
Red Cross is a red butterhead,Merlot a dark red leaf lettuce
and a Paraday, a red oak leaf.

(51:12):
That's one of my favorites butI can no longer find seeds for
it.
And then Nevada, it's a greenloose leaf, kind of a
semi-heading type.
So all those did well, as wellas can be expected in our summer
heat.
So they did better than a lotof other varieties.

I'm glad you mentioned Nevada, because I have
grown that one before and itwas pretty good.
But I think if you want adependable green for heat, do
the Swiss chart.

Right, i agree, all right.

Ah, springtime, when the prevailing question
among some backyard tomatogrowers is I wonder if I should
prune off those first tomatoflowers.
I see, maybe I'll get moretomatoes that way.
The answer, well, it depends.
It could be "no or it could bePerhaps Master Gardener Gail
Pothauer will tell us why.

(52:05):
That answer, according to her,is it depends.
I still say no, i'd ratherspend that time riding my bike.
But if you two are wonderingabout the pros and cons of this
time consuming tomato flowerpruning task, then this is a
flashback episode worthlistening to.
It's episode 191, prune tomatoflowers and tips for a

(52:27):
sustainable food garden,originally aired back in May of
2022.
It's our flashback episode ofthe week.
Look for this informativeepisode number 191 on the Garden
Basics with farmer Fred podcastin the podcast player of your
choice, or you can click on thelink in today's show notes or go
to our homepage,gardenbasicsnet.

(52:53):
We like to answer your gardenquestions here on the Garden
Basics podcast.
Debbie Flower, America'sfavorite retired college
horticultural professor, hasjoined us.
And we will tackle yourquestions.
We love it, especially when yousend them in via Speakpipe.
It's great audio quality.
You go to speakpipe.
com, slash garden basics.
And then it will instruct youto yell at your computer into

(53:15):
the built-in mic on yourcomputer.
You ask the question and voila,we have your question.
No phone charges are incurred.
That again is speakpipe.
com slash garden basics.
Debbie, let's check in withDerek.
He's in Colorado, and I don'tknow if we're going to have an
answer for him or not.
Let's find out.

Derek from Colorado (53:34):
Fred and Debbie.
This is Derek from Fort Collins, Colorado, zone 5b.
I was wondering if y'all couldtalk about any perennial herbs
that you can grow in pots.
I'm interested in growing mint,but I couldn't really find any
information about cultivars thatwould be able to survive zone 5
in a pot outside.

(53:56):
So yeah, i figured if we couldjust talk about that in
addition to any other herbs thatmight be tough enough,
cold-hardy enough to survive azone 5 winner in a pot.

Thank you for asking us, Derek.
And here's Debbie Downer withthe bad news.

Debbie Flower (54:14):
Well, one rule of thumb for any plant that's
going to live its whole life ina container outdoors is that it
should be hardy to 2 USDA zonescolder than you're going to get
in your location.
So he's in zone 5.
5b, which is the warmer half ofzone 5.

Yeah, and you want it to be hardy to zone 3?

Right, If it's just going to live outside.
I think of the ones that areoutside of big buildings, office
buildings, hotels, whateverthat live there permanently in
containers.
The reason is that thecontainer is has much less media
or soil in it than wouldsurround the roots if the plant
were in the ground, and so theplant roots are not as well
insulated And, believe it or not, the plant roots are the part

(55:00):
of the plant that is mostsensitive to cold.
So that's what you're trying todo is insulate those roots in
the wintertime.
Fred came up with a list ofherbs from Southern Exposure
Seed Exchange And there are twoon there that will survive.
Zone 3.
So that's chives and echinacea,or is there another name for

(55:23):
echinacea?
Yeah, there is, and I don'tremember what it is.
Okay, echinacea is usedsometimes for cold control, and
I don't know how to prep it.
I don't know which cultivarspecies, so I'm not up on that,
but it says it will survive.
Zone 3.
Is that coneflower?
Yes, thank you.
Echinacea is coneflower Andchives.
I have chives in my garden andI'm a zone 9.

(55:45):
And it looks crappy in winter,but it comes back every spring.
It doesn't die to the groundcompletely, so that's something
to expect even from a mint in apot in winter is it could die to
the ground, you may havedisappeared.
You might be all sad about that.
Give it time to warm up inspring and grow again.
If you want to grow mint, mintis a perennial in zones 5 and

(56:10):
above 5, up through zone 10,according to this chart, and so
that means you would probablywant to give it some winter
protection.
That would be certainly upagainst a building, a house,
let's say, under a roof, like aporch roof, in the garage in the
dark.
It won't matter that it's inthe dark, but it'll get some

(56:31):
degrees of protection in there,and that's what it would need to
potentially live the winter out.
A thicker pot.
There are not a lot of ceramicpots that are going to survive
the winter without cracking.
There are those.
Made of what?
are they made of?
fiberglass or fiber something?
fiber pots, right, lighterweight, look like ceramic.
They apparently survive hardfreezes, according to their

(56:55):
advertising.
You could use that as theplanting pot.
Make sure it has draining holes, or you could use it as an
insulating pot.
So put that, the grow pot,inside of the fiber pot and put
something between them.
Yeah, mulch, mulch, right,something to add insulation.
You could put a, let's say, atomato cage around the top of it

(57:19):
.
I had a neighbor here inCalifornia but he would put a
tomato cage around his plants,plant them very early, wrap the
tomato cage in plastic which hasproblems in my book but and put
a garbage can lid on top of itto trap heat.
I wouldn't use the plasticbecause if you get a nice sunny
day, even in winter when it'svery cold, it'll get very hot

(57:42):
inside that and you could burnthe plant.
I would use probably frostcloth.

I can attest to that just by looking at my
greenhouse thermometer, which isup here on a shelf.
It's telling me that theinterior greenhouse right now at
two o'clock in the afternoon is99 degrees, even though the day
itself is in the 73.

Oh, that's indoors.

Yeah, so 73 in here , it's probably in the upper
70's.
Yeah, it's a nice day.

Right, and the greenhouse door is open and the
vent is open, yeah, so you'regetting airflow through it.
And the fan is on inside.
It gets very warm under plastic, so I wouldn't use plastic.
So whenever I grow somethingoutdoors in a pot, i try to put
it on one of those rolling bases.
I have to say that if you canfind one with really good wheels

(58:30):
, or put wheels, really goodwheels, on your own pot, that
would be really nice.
The ones I find at the big boxstore last a couple of years and
then the wheels no longer turn.
I have two words for you.
Yes, furniture dolly, furnituredolly.
There you go, yeah, yeah, itworks.
Yeah, put it right under yourpot.
Then you can roll it under yourinto your garage or roll it

(58:51):
under your porch roof up againstthe house for the winter and
you will be able to grow mint.

Do you grow marjoram Have you ever grown

Marjoram, that's an interesting thing about this
list.
I have marjoram, Which saysit's a perennial in zone 10.

10.
And we see it
I've had it for many years andit just keeps taking over across
bigger and bigger and bigger.
I have it and a Californiafuchsia in the same bed, and the
two of them are competing forspace.
Well, in that case, then, let's expand Derek's
horizons a little bit here andmaybe consider some of these

(59:26):
herbs that, even though they maybe hardy down to zone 5, at
least he could plant zone 5herbs and hope for the best.
Right, or at the very leastgrow them as annuals.

Right And grow them.
start early in the season andgrow them so they have a good
root system when they're goinginto the fall.

So the mint, of course, lemon balm, oregano,
lavender, that's it.

Well, it's more than two.
Feverfew, catnip, if you have acat, which I do and some like
it and some don't.

Farmer Fred (01:00:01):
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
The zone 4 herbs.

Debbie Flower (01:00:04):
There's some zone 4 herbs sage, the sages,
Feverfew.
I've had trouble growing sagein the ground here, I think.
I don't know if we get too hot.
Have you had trouble growing itin the ground?
(Fred says) It's a weed here.
It's a weed.
(Debbie says) I can't get itestablished, So it's in a pot at
my house now.

Yeah, i like the idea just to expand his herbal
collection in Colorado.
Is that the pot in the pottheory?

Yes, and having something between the two pots.

If you've got your herb growing in a one gallon,
you'd want a bigger than a onegallon container, maybe a five,
and put that inside a 15 andthen fill in the space between
the two with some bark.

That's going to give you a lot of protection in
both the coldest seasons andthe hottest seasons, because a
black pot will heat up to 140degrees and a half hour.
That kills roots very quickly,and so the second, having the
second pot and the insulation inbetween, will prevent that from
happening.
or choose the 15 gallon outercontainer that isn't black right

(01:01:05):
or paint it.
We did that in school.
I had the students paint themwhite with spray paint.
You're not going to mentionaluminum foil.
Well, you can use aluminum foil.
People seem to not like that.
I just don't get it.

I don't know.
I kind of like the idea ofhaving a backyard full of pots
wrapped in aluminum foil next totomato cages covered in row
cover with a garbage can lid ontop.
There you go, a beautifulgarden.
There you go, The Sanford andSon Garden.
Yes, but they will get food,yeah, exactly.
All right.
So there you go, Derek.
Hope that helps and you canexpand your herb collection this

(01:01:40):
year with that advice.
Call us back.
Let us know what happened.
Just don't swear when you callback.
All right, the Garden Basicswith Farmer Fred podcast comes
out once a week on Fridays, plus, the newsletter podcast that
comes with the Beyond the GardenBasics newsletter continues and

(01:02:03):
that will also be released onFridays.
Both are free and they'rebrought to you by Smart Pots and
Dave Wilson Nursery.
The Garden Basics podcast isavailable wherever podcasts are
handed out, and that includesour homepage, gardenbasics.
net, and that's where you canalso sign up for the Beyond the
Garden Basics newsletter andpodcast.
That's GardenBasics.
net, or you can use the links intoday's show notes.

(01:02:27):
And thank you so much forlistening.

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