March 21, 2024 • 12 mins
The relapse process effects both the individual and family including emotional, mental, and physical impacts. However, there are ways that the family can help address relapse. In this episode, therapist Jerry Daley, discusses family dynamic during the relapse process.
Not all participants in this podcast are medical or clinical professionals. Always consult with a qualified health care provider.
Host: Jonny Hartwell.
Not all participants in this podcast are medical or clinical professionals. Always consult with a qualified health care provider.
Host: Jonny Hartwell.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Making a difference in the lives ofthe people that we love. Addiction is
a treatable disease, so I thinkit's more about bringing their guard down and
having them understand that we are tryingto assist them in any way, shape
or form that we can. AndI was like, oh, I just
oh my god. I never wantto feel this way again. This is
Gateway Rehabs Recovery Roll Call, andwelcome in. This is Gateway Rehabs Recovery
(00:24):
Roll Call. I'm your host,Johnny Hartwell, once again we would like
to welcome Jerry Daily. Good morning. How why are you, sir?
I'm good, good morning. Allright, So you tell us exactly what
you do for Gateway. I ama therapist in the Long Term Rest program.
It's a ninety to one hundred andtwenty day program for males and females
located at the Aliquippa Campus. Allright, So what is our topic today
(00:48):
this morning? I would like totalk about the relapse process, because I
think there's a big misconception sometimes withhow relapsing occurs and just about the different
ways that other people can address itwith them. So you're talking about the
family dynamic when it comes to relapseabsolutely because when you look at it,
not just from a family standpoint,but you have the emotional piece of it,
(01:08):
you have the mental health piece ofit, and you have the physical
piece of relapsing. But through thewhole process, you have the lens of
the family members who are watching ithappen. Then you have the lens of
the individual who might not see iteven occurring. So it's both sides on
both sides, so you kind ofyou're going to discuss the perspective of the
person who has relapse, which iskind of can it probably be demoralizing,
(01:30):
that's frustrating, But at the sametime, it can be very frustrating for
the family who who is just trying. You're so close to maybe coming through
a breakthrough, and then there's arelapse and suddenly you have to start all
over, and that's got to bethat's got to be frustrating as well.
I think some of the more frustratingthings about the relapse process is a lot
(01:51):
of people experience a relapse process withouteven using. So when I talk about
the process of it, it couldhappen. It could be starting today for
someone that doesn't even use for abouttwo or three months for six months,
because there's a specific set of circumstancesand it's not like stacking blocks, like
here's step one, here's step two, here's step three. It's a gradual
process that happens with every person thathas substance used issues that ends up relapsing.
(02:15):
But at the same time, it'snot about up here, we are
in phase one, now we're goingto move to phase two, or like
it could start at phase five.You know, there's no real it has
to start here and it has tostart there. Like someone can experience a
trigger event right now today, boom, and then that's their ticket to go
use. So they don't even haveto experience the entire process. That could
be a small facet of it.So they could probably you know, jump
(02:37):
a few steps and they they're doingreally, really well, and then they
take a step back. Is itrealistic to kind of go into it thinking
that they are probably going to relapse? What's all right? So let's let's
take it from the person who isrelapsing. Okay, let's take it tell
us that what is the what's themental process of what goes on with them?
(02:57):
So with the mental process of therelapse process, the very first step
of it is getting stuck in yourrecovery. Now, that can look like
anything for anybody now with working ina program. We run groups, we
have individual sessions, we have familyprogram, we have all these small facets
of our program that sometimes and itcould be something very small, like if
(03:19):
you were in my program and youwere participating in every single group, every
single group, every single day,you'd give me at least five ten minutes
of talking and then one day youjust don't speak that during that group,
and after the group I come toyou and say, hey, is everything
all right, and like I'm good, don't worry about it, none to
worry about it. I'm like okay. But at the same time, you
know in your head that there wassomething going on or something has happened that
has caused you to not have thatsame motivation, that same determination, that
(03:43):
same involvement, same enthusiasm as whenyou first start. Yeah exactly, Well,
it could be frustrating and when youknow, you feel like you may
have had a trigger and you feellike you might And then there's those who
are there people who who lie tothemselves and say or lie to you and
say, oh no, I didn'trelapse and they actually have. I'll take
(04:04):
people and I say lying to meabout things that are going on in their
recovery, And when they start lyingto themselves, that becomes the big problem.
Because I'm just I'm a small facetof their treatment. I'm there to
help them. I'm there to bea vessel, give them information, help
them through the process. But throughlying to me, if they're lying to
themselves, that's the bigger issue becauseI can't do anything with them. Once
they leave, they can call meand we can talk a little bit,
(04:26):
but the frustrating part becomes they're lyingto themselves. So the trigger event step
three. It doesn't even have tobe something significant. It could be something
that on a day to day basisthey manage and they deal with completely fine.
But for some reason, on thisspecific day, at this specific time,
there's a snap in the brain,you know what I mean. Something
goes onwards like I can't do this, I can't control this, which then
(04:46):
leads to their dysfunction. And thenagain the dysfunction starts internally. So what
do you do from the lens ofa therapist. As I see these things
happening, I go out of myway to let them know, like,
Hey, just so you know,I can see somethings off. You might
not I want to talk about itright now, but please, if you
don't do it right now, I'llget with me later today. And if
you don't get with me later,do they get with somebody, Because I'm
trying to direct them to get whatever'sgoing on inside out, because for me,
(05:12):
the important part is that they talkthrough whatever they're experiencing. I don't
want to see anybody in our programstruggle with the capacity of what's going on
in their treatment and or recovery.When we have so many people who are
willing to go out of their wayto try to help them, and so
it's almost like they have to getout of their own way to a degree.
Sure, what about the perspective ofthe family. This is the interesting
(05:32):
one because when you run a relapseprocess and you start to talk to them
about so what do you think theirbig issues are? The family members will
give them everything that they've seen.Their lens of them when they're using is
specifically specifically different from the individual whostruggles with the substance use. So it
could be like, so, whatdoes a trigger event look like for them?
And they'll say everything triggers them.It could be the way I made
(05:55):
the coffee in the morning. Itcould be the way I said good morning.
It could be you know what Imean. It could be that I
wasn't driving fast enough on everything's goingon. And then you have the individuals
saying like that, it's not likethat, and they're like, you don't
get it. It is exactly likethat. Is it like that though?
And some families yes, and somefamilies know because the more difficult one is
when the family member sits there withyou and they say, I don't know,
like it's really hard because they don'tshow a lot of emotion all the
(06:18):
time. And then when we're runninggroups, the other family members would be
like think hard, like you know, you got this. And that's like
the therapeutic value of one family memberhelping another within our program because they build
off of each other and then theyreally feed off of one another's feedback in
the groups and it helps them growtogether. What about if you have different
family members who have different perspectives ordifferent opinions. That's that's probably one of
(06:42):
the biggest I don't want to sayproblems because it's not that it's a problems
one of the one of the mostchallenging dynamics that we have in the program
because especially if the family is stilltogether, like mom and Dad aren't divorced,
then they're living under the same roof. When they're when the dynamic of
the family members is two different opinions, you have to go with the therapeutic
one and not to discredit the otherperson, but you have to start to
(07:03):
build towards them understanding the therapeutic processof what we're trying to accomplish. You
see it a lot where especially ifwithin the family dynamic, there is a
big heavy substance use component to thecomponent to the family like they were using
together, they were drinking together.They're like, I, he's not that
bad. Like I've seen so manymore people that are way worse than Jerry.
(07:24):
It's not about that, like,it's about understanding the theory process.
This has been a problem. Notmany people just come to ninety days of
treatment for nothing. Yeah, sookay, So do you try to get
the parents in New York example,to get on the same page. Absolutely,
and I don't. And I'm notgoing to talk to them separately either.
I'm talking to them both at thesame time. I don't I don't
want to have anything misconstrued or miscommunicatedor Jerry said this. No, I
(07:47):
want them both in the same roomwith me so that if they have any
questions, cares, or concerns withhow I want to approach it, we
can do it together. And it'snot about passing the buck or doing the
telephone game, whereas goes through people. So all right, give us some
example, some examples of success whereyou think a family dynamic help that person
who is suffering through addiction. Sowe've had there's a lot of different processes
(08:11):
where when I keep using that termlens, when you can start to challenge
the lens of someone who doesn't understandsubstance use, who doesn't really think that
the term addiction applies to their lovedone, you know what I mean,
and you can start to have themunderstand that it was affecting every management skill
that they had. They weren't ableto go to work on time, they
weren't able to operate within the familystructure. They weren't able to take care
(08:33):
of their kids, they weren't ableto take care of things the family members
struggle to most when I think itkind of looks bad on the family,
But it's not about looking bad onthe family. It's about them trying to
make it so that the person thatthey're there to see is getting healthier.
There's been a lot of situations inthe past, probably like year ish since
we opened our program, where there'sbeen a lot of growth with a lot
(08:54):
of our families because a lot ofpeople have come in super defeated, like
I don't know what else to do. You need to help him, That's
what we're here to do, allright. So but are you talking about
the person who is a fighting addictionor the family both? Both? Both?
Absolutely, Because again I have youhave this dynamic where if you were
in my program and had you hada tough family, say your dad was
really tough on you, yea,And I sat with you like hey,
(09:16):
and I introduced a family program toyou, and I was like, just
so you know our family program andyou're in Group A that would be on
Tuesday nights and Saturday afternoons. Andyou'd say to me like, I don
know about that, Jerry, Like, listen, my dad's a real stickler.
He told me he doesn't want reallyanything to do with me this time,
and I'm like, would you mindif I gave him a call?
I have consent, like absolutely,so if I can get him to come
in. And it's not about bringingdown his wall, it's about understanding the
(09:39):
purpose of getting y'all together to buildon this. And I've seen it happen
where someone has been very like nonchalant, like I don't think so, and
then they've come in and then they'veadapted to it and they're like, I
see a lot of change I'm like, that's what that's what treatment done.
You see progress? All right?So when you talk about treatment, do
you start with an individual therapy andthen move into family or do you find
that family therapy is the first goodstep, so you kind of they may
(10:05):
not want to go through that journeyalone and they need that family. We
always offer all those modalities of therapy, so you're gonna have individual therapy every
week, the family therapy part.I think we're probably right now. We
were fifty bed facility. I thinkwe're probably like fifteen to twenty percent of
families come up, so it's nota lot, but the families that do
come up are super invested in whatwe're doing, so I go out of
(10:26):
my way with the clients that areon my case, So if they want
their family to be involved, Ireach out to them and let them know
when the family program starts. Butat the same time, I think the
family program is a very important componentfor a lot of them because I don't
think they understand what the health oftheir family looks like without them using you
know what I mean, They've beenusing for so many years that like it's
almost like an accepted form of likewho they are as a person, which
(10:48):
so there is no health in that. But they need to try to stay
within their recovery, within their treatmentaspects to see what it's going to look
like with their family once they getout of the program. All right,
if somebody's listening to this PODCAS castright now who has a family member who
is fighting addiction, is looking forhelp, what's the first step calling in
(11:09):
and getting an evaluation. That's athat's a very big question. There's a
lot of people who know what Ido and they say I need you to
help. I'm like, please callin and get an evaluation. Tell them
they don't even got to call Gatewayget to get an evaluation. And the
more difficult part with the evaluation islike, well, they can't miswork,
they can't this. I'm an inpatienttherapist for a long term program, you
know what I mean? There's nothingI do outside of my outside of my
(11:31):
facility that that's where I work.I don't do it outside of it.
And if somebody is listening who hasa family member who is fighting addiction and
they're reluctant tossert to get help,what kind of recommendation do you have that
person to get them to go throughan evaluation. It's important to get evaluated,
(11:52):
especially with the reluctance that the nileaspect of the disease of addiction is
inherent within a lot of people.A lot of people are skied of the
potential outcome. What if they wantme to go to inpatient, they want
you to go to in Patien's partlywhat's going to be in your best interest
currently within your life. So again, be honest with an upfront with who's
evaluating you when you go in foryour evaluation, answer their questions, tell
(12:13):
them exactly what's going on. Thisis what I talked about earlier. If
they're lying to themselves, if theylie to the evaluator. The evaluators people
to do their job effectively, butif they're inherently honest and they're trying to
get what they need for themselves,the evaluation will be successful. Jerry Daily
Gateway Rehabs, Recovery Recall
Making a difference in the lives ofthe people that we love. Addiction is
a treatable disease, so I thinkit's more about bringing their guard down and
having them understand that we are tryingto assist them in any way, shape
or form that we can. AndI was like, oh, I just
oh my god. I never wantto feel this way again. This is
Gateway Rehabs Recovery Roll Call, andwelcome in. This is Gateway Rehabs Recovery
(00:24):
Roll Call. I'm your host,Johnny Hartwell, once again we would like
to welcome Jerry Daily. Good morning. How why are you, sir?
I'm good, good morning. Allright, So you tell us exactly what
you do for Gateway. I ama therapist in the Long Term Rest program.
It's a ninety to one hundred andtwenty day program for males and females
located at the Aliquippa Campus. Allright, So what is our topic today
(00:48):
this morning? I would like totalk about the relapse process, because I
think there's a big misconception sometimes withhow relapsing occurs and just about the different
ways that other people can address itwith them. So you're talking about the
family dynamic when it comes to relapseabsolutely because when you look at it,
not just from a family standpoint,but you have the emotional piece of it,
(01:08):
you have the mental health piece ofit, and you have the physical
piece of relapsing. But through thewhole process, you have the lens of
the family members who are watching ithappen. Then you have the lens of
the individual who might not see iteven occurring. So it's both sides on
both sides, so you kind ofyou're going to discuss the perspective of the
person who has relapse, which iskind of can it probably be demoralizing,
(01:30):
that's frustrating, But at the sametime, it can be very frustrating for
the family who who is just trying. You're so close to maybe coming through
a breakthrough, and then there's arelapse and suddenly you have to start all
over, and that's got to bethat's got to be frustrating as well.
I think some of the more frustratingthings about the relapse process is a lot
(01:51):
of people experience a relapse process withouteven using. So when I talk about
the process of it, it couldhappen. It could be starting today for
someone that doesn't even use for abouttwo or three months for six months,
because there's a specific set of circumstancesand it's not like stacking blocks, like
here's step one, here's step two, here's step three. It's a gradual
process that happens with every person thathas substance used issues that ends up relapsing.
(02:15):
But at the same time, it'snot about up here, we are
in phase one, now we're goingto move to phase two, or like
it could start at phase five.You know, there's no real it has
to start here and it has tostart there. Like someone can experience a
trigger event right now today, boom, and then that's their ticket to go
use. So they don't even haveto experience the entire process. That could
be a small facet of it.So they could probably you know, jump
(02:37):
a few steps and they they're doingreally, really well, and then they
take a step back. Is itrealistic to kind of go into it thinking
that they are probably going to relapse? What's all right? So let's let's
take it from the person who isrelapsing. Okay, let's take it tell
us that what is the what's themental process of what goes on with them?
(02:57):
So with the mental process of therelapse process, the very first step
of it is getting stuck in yourrecovery. Now, that can look like
anything for anybody now with working ina program. We run groups, we
have individual sessions, we have familyprogram, we have all these small facets
of our program that sometimes and itcould be something very small, like if
(03:19):
you were in my program and youwere participating in every single group, every
single group, every single day,you'd give me at least five ten minutes
of talking and then one day youjust don't speak that during that group,
and after the group I come toyou and say, hey, is everything
all right, and like I'm good, don't worry about it, none to
worry about it. I'm like okay. But at the same time, you
know in your head that there wassomething going on or something has happened that
has caused you to not have thatsame motivation, that same determination, that
(03:43):
same involvement, same enthusiasm as whenyou first start. Yeah exactly, Well,
it could be frustrating and when youknow, you feel like you may
have had a trigger and you feellike you might And then there's those who
are there people who who lie tothemselves and say or lie to you and
say, oh no, I didn'trelapse and they actually have. I'll take
(04:04):
people and I say lying to meabout things that are going on in their
recovery, And when they start lyingto themselves, that becomes the big problem.
Because I'm just I'm a small facetof their treatment. I'm there to
help them. I'm there to bea vessel, give them information, help
them through the process. But throughlying to me, if they're lying to
themselves, that's the bigger issue becauseI can't do anything with them. Once
they leave, they can call meand we can talk a little bit,
(04:26):
but the frustrating part becomes they're lyingto themselves. So the trigger event step
three. It doesn't even have tobe something significant. It could be something
that on a day to day basisthey manage and they deal with completely fine.
But for some reason, on thisspecific day, at this specific time,
there's a snap in the brain,you know what I mean. Something
goes onwards like I can't do this, I can't control this, which then
(04:46):
leads to their dysfunction. And thenagain the dysfunction starts internally. So what
do you do from the lens ofa therapist. As I see these things
happening, I go out of myway to let them know, like,
Hey, just so you know,I can see somethings off. You might
not I want to talk about itright now, but please, if you
don't do it right now, I'llget with me later today. And if
you don't get with me later,do they get with somebody, Because I'm
trying to direct them to get whatever'sgoing on inside out, because for me,
(05:12):
the important part is that they talkthrough whatever they're experiencing. I don't
want to see anybody in our programstruggle with the capacity of what's going on
in their treatment and or recovery.When we have so many people who are
willing to go out of their wayto try to help them, and so
it's almost like they have to getout of their own way to a degree.
Sure, what about the perspective ofthe family. This is the interesting
(05:32):
one because when you run a relapseprocess and you start to talk to them
about so what do you think theirbig issues are? The family members will
give them everything that they've seen.Their lens of them when they're using is
specifically specifically different from the individual whostruggles with the substance use. So it
could be like, so, whatdoes a trigger event look like for them?
And they'll say everything triggers them.It could be the way I made
(05:55):
the coffee in the morning. Itcould be the way I said good morning.
It could be you know what Imean. It could be that I
wasn't driving fast enough on everything's goingon. And then you have the individuals
saying like that, it's not likethat, and they're like, you don't
get it. It is exactly likethat. Is it like that though?
And some families yes, and somefamilies know because the more difficult one is
when the family member sits there withyou and they say, I don't know,
like it's really hard because they don'tshow a lot of emotion all the
(06:18):
time. And then when we're runninggroups, the other family members would be
like think hard, like you know, you got this. And that's like
the therapeutic value of one family memberhelping another within our program because they build
off of each other and then theyreally feed off of one another's feedback in
the groups and it helps them growtogether. What about if you have different
family members who have different perspectives ordifferent opinions. That's that's probably one of
(06:42):
the biggest I don't want to sayproblems because it's not that it's a problems
one of the one of the mostchallenging dynamics that we have in the program
because especially if the family is stilltogether, like mom and Dad aren't divorced,
then they're living under the same roof. When they're when the dynamic of
the family members is two different opinions, you have to go with the therapeutic
one and not to discredit the otherperson, but you have to start to
(07:03):
build towards them understanding the therapeutic processof what we're trying to accomplish. You
see it a lot where especially ifwithin the family dynamic, there is a
big heavy substance use component to thecomponent to the family like they were using
together, they were drinking together.They're like, I, he's not that
bad. Like I've seen so manymore people that are way worse than Jerry.
(07:24):
It's not about that, like,it's about understanding the theory process.
This has been a problem. Notmany people just come to ninety days of
treatment for nothing. Yeah, sookay, So do you try to get
the parents in New York example,to get on the same page. Absolutely,
and I don't. And I'm notgoing to talk to them separately either.
I'm talking to them both at thesame time. I don't I don't
want to have anything misconstrued or miscommunicatedor Jerry said this. No, I
(07:47):
want them both in the same roomwith me so that if they have any
questions, cares, or concerns withhow I want to approach it, we
can do it together. And it'snot about passing the buck or doing the
telephone game, whereas goes through people. So all right, give us some
example, some examples of success whereyou think a family dynamic help that person
who is suffering through addiction. Sowe've had there's a lot of different processes
(08:11):
where when I keep using that termlens, when you can start to challenge
the lens of someone who doesn't understandsubstance use, who doesn't really think that
the term addiction applies to their lovedone, you know what I mean,
and you can start to have themunderstand that it was affecting every management skill
that they had. They weren't ableto go to work on time, they
weren't able to operate within the familystructure. They weren't able to take care
(08:33):
of their kids, they weren't ableto take care of things the family members
struggle to most when I think itkind of looks bad on the family,
But it's not about looking bad onthe family. It's about them trying to
make it so that the person thatthey're there to see is getting healthier.
There's been a lot of situations inthe past, probably like year ish since
we opened our program, where there'sbeen a lot of growth with a lot
(08:54):
of our families because a lot ofpeople have come in super defeated, like
I don't know what else to do. You need to help him, That's
what we're here to do, allright. So but are you talking about
the person who is a fighting addictionor the family both? Both? Both?
Absolutely, Because again I have youhave this dynamic where if you were
in my program and had you hada tough family, say your dad was
really tough on you, yea,And I sat with you like hey,
(09:16):
and I introduced a family program toyou, and I was like, just
so you know our family program andyou're in Group A that would be on
Tuesday nights and Saturday afternoons. Andyou'd say to me like, I don
know about that, Jerry, Like, listen, my dad's a real stickler.
He told me he doesn't want reallyanything to do with me this time,
and I'm like, would you mindif I gave him a call?
I have consent, like absolutely,so if I can get him to come
in. And it's not about bringingdown his wall, it's about understanding the
(09:39):
purpose of getting y'all together to buildon this. And I've seen it happen
where someone has been very like nonchalant, like I don't think so, and
then they've come in and then they'veadapted to it and they're like, I
see a lot of change I'm like, that's what that's what treatment done.
You see progress? All right?So when you talk about treatment, do
you start with an individual therapy andthen move into family or do you find
that family therapy is the first goodstep, so you kind of they may
(10:05):
not want to go through that journeyalone and they need that family. We
always offer all those modalities of therapy, so you're gonna have individual therapy every
week, the family therapy part.I think we're probably right now. We
were fifty bed facility. I thinkwe're probably like fifteen to twenty percent of
families come up, so it's nota lot, but the families that do
come up are super invested in whatwe're doing, so I go out of
(10:26):
my way with the clients that areon my case, So if they want
their family to be involved, Ireach out to them and let them know
when the family program starts. Butat the same time, I think the
family program is a very important componentfor a lot of them because I don't
think they understand what the health oftheir family looks like without them using you
know what I mean, They've beenusing for so many years that like it's
almost like an accepted form of likewho they are as a person, which
(10:48):
so there is no health in that. But they need to try to stay
within their recovery, within their treatmentaspects to see what it's going to look
like with their family once they getout of the program. All right,
if somebody's listening to this PODCAS castright now who has a family member who
is fighting addiction, is looking forhelp, what's the first step calling in
(11:09):
and getting an evaluation. That's athat's a very big question. There's a
lot of people who know what Ido and they say I need you to
help. I'm like, please callin and get an evaluation. Tell them
they don't even got to call Gatewayget to get an evaluation. And the
more difficult part with the evaluation islike, well, they can't miswork,
they can't this. I'm an inpatienttherapist for a long term program, you
know what I mean? There's nothingI do outside of my outside of my
(11:31):
facility that that's where I work.I don't do it outside of it.
And if somebody is listening who hasa family member who is fighting addiction and
they're reluctant tossert to get help,what kind of recommendation do you have that
person to get them to go throughan evaluation. It's important to get evaluated,
(11:52):
especially with the reluctance that the nileaspect of the disease of addiction is
inherent within a lot of people.A lot of people are skied of the
potential outcome. What if they wantme to go to inpatient, they want
you to go to in Patien's partlywhat's going to be in your best interest
currently within your life. So again, be honest with an upfront with who's
evaluating you when you go in foryour evaluation, answer their questions, tell
(12:13):
them exactly what's going on. Thisis what I talked about earlier. If
they're lying to themselves, if theylie to the evaluator. The evaluators people
to do their job effectively, butif they're inherently honest and they're trying to
get what they need for themselves,the evaluation will be successful. Jerry Daily
Gateway Rehabs, Recovery Recall
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