April 13, 2023 • 23 mins
Steve welcomes back friend of the podcast, Charlie Gray, to discuss discovering and embracing our sexuality in recovery.
For more Charlie Gray, check out his numerous past episodes with us, google 'At Least I'm Not the Frog' or follow him on IG @hismajestycharles3rd - and follow us while you are at it @gayapodcast
Check out our Post-Show to hear us discuss sexual first times at www.patreon.com/gayapodcast
Until next time, stay sober friends!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve (00:03):
Hi everyone, and welcome to Gay, a podcast about sobriety
for the LGBTQ plus community andour allies.
I'm your host Steve.
Bennet-Martin.
I am an alcoholic and I amgrateful for being gay.
As of this recording, I am 626days sober, and today we're
welcoming back friend of thepodcast Charlie Gray, to talk
about discovering and embracingyour sexuality and recovery.
(00:24):
Thanks for coming back, Charlie.
Yes.
Charlie (00:27):
Hi Steve.
Thank you so much for having meback.
I love it on here.
This is great,
Steve (00:31):
Yes, I'm very excited for this episode, but before we get
into that, what's been going onsince we last talked in
December?
Charlie (00:38):
You know, not too much.
I'm still just hanging with thatbaby nephew as much as I can.
Just that time is so special.
It's so much fun.
It's everything.
I knew it was going to be.
just holding him in my arms andhe's so little and sweet and
innocent.
It just makes you really, reallyproud to be like sober and
(01:01):
present and there for that.
So that's been great.
We're gearing up for a familytrip here in a couple weeks and
that'll be a lot of fun.
And I've, you know, heavily beenfinishing up and now starting
the edits of the third.
Steve (01:19):
So Excellent.
And when does that come out?
Charlie (01:22):
That will be out May 29th of this year.
Excellent.
So just a couple months now?
Yes, yes,
Steve (01:28):
yes.
Excellent.
And why did you choose the topicof sexuality to talk about
today?
Well,
Charlie (01:35):
honestly, because in writing this third book and
really in my sober journey overthis last couple of years, it's
been, there's been a paralleljourney, journey going on with
that, you know, with, withrealizing the role my sexuality
played in my addiction and howit fueled it, how it morphed it.
(01:56):
So it's just when I saw the, thetopics, I was like, of course I
have to discuss discovering mysexuality because it.
Hand in hand with like thetrauma of losing my mother at a
young age and, and being analcoholic.
You know, those are like thethree pillars of this fucked up
man that I am
Steve (02:16):
So I hear ya.
And before we j dive into allthat trauma that oftentimes gets
associated with our sexuality doyou have any happy stories or
memories about discovering yoursexuality as a child or a young.
Charlie (02:31):
Yes.
You know, for the, for the mostpart it was, it was never like a
sad, the only thing I knew I wasgay from a very, very early age,
from about nine years old.
I understood what it meant to begay.
I had an uncle that was gay, soit wasn't something that, you
know, was foreign to my littleworld.
(02:52):
So I knew that I was the onlything.
That scared me about being gaywas, I was so young.
It was in probably around, thiswould've been around 93, 94, 95,
whenever I was like, you know,aware that I was gay, so we're
it's aids, you know, it wasstill so bad really at that
point, or we were just comingoff of it and I didn't, I didn't
(03:16):
know what sex was.
Of course, I was too young toknow what sex was or to
understand.
that disease.
I just knew that it wassomething that was associated
with gay men.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, okay, well youare, I know that you are gay and
I know that nobody will reallytalk about this disease.
I know something happened toUncle Bradley's, like boyfriend
(03:37):
or partner, but we don't reallyget into that.
So it was just this verymysterious disease that I
thought I was going to get justbecause I was gay.
Mm-hmm.
So I lived in a lot of fear as ayoung kid and.
you know, it really kind of, ithampered, didn't hamper, I guess
that's not the right word.
It just impeded a relationshipwith God because I was like, I
(04:00):
can't believe in God because whydid he make me this way and then
he is just gonna kill me off.
And so it, it, it made for a lotof confusion and a lot of fear.
But the core of me was okay withit.
I knew it was okay.
I knew.
I was still gonna be loved inthat it, it wasn't gonna be that
big of a deal.
(04:20):
So it was very mixed emotions.
Steve (04:23):
Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, I, I had a so different,different experience.
Like I remember.
even before like it was likesexual, like, like playing
around with like boys.
Like I remember I was probablylike five or six at summer camp
and I got in trouble for havingsword fights with my wiener with
another like boy.
We were like five or six, likeit obviously wasn't sexual cuz
(04:43):
we were like children, but like,yeah, in the locker room after
the pool or whatever.
We thought it was like so fun tojust like pretend our penises
were swords.
Smack'em against each other.
And it became such a huge dealat camp where like the
counselors like got my parentsinvolved, they got this other
kid's parents involved.
They called everyone in andlike, we didn't know what we
were doing or what, like, andthey made it like so wrong.
(05:06):
And we were like told like howdisgusting and wrong and
inappropriate and vile it was.
Oh, and then that just scarsyou.
Yeah, and I was like, I didn'teven know what I was doing was
like wrong or inappropriate.
Like it was just like two kidsjust like playing around with
their bodies like and veryinnocent.
Yeah, very interesting.
It's very innocent and yeah, Ijust remember like instantly
(05:27):
being like, okay, well the stuffthat I want to do I can't do
because it's wrong anddisgusting and horrible.
It's wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, did you have anyexperiences like that where you
felt wrong or othered?
Charlie (05:39):
It wasn't so much a feeling of being wrong.
It was a very early feeling ofbeing different and knowing that
that different wasn'tnecessarily a good thing.
It wasn't necessarily a badthing.
It was just a thing that maybe Ididn't want to talk about.
Yeah.
You know, I remember.
and I did grow up in a smalltown in the country, so in my
(06:00):
world, I was the only gayperson.
I didn't, there weren't gayrole, you know, it was just
like, it was a different, I knewI was different.
It wasn't wrong, but it was.
Yeah.
You just know and you're like,God, does everyone else know I'm
different?
So now I have to try so hard tobe just like everyone else, to
be so normal.
Yes.
(06:20):
That this huge difference willnever, my secret won't be out.
Steve (06:25):
Yeah.
And then, I mean, I, I do have apositive story about growing up
though.
I like, after carrying thatsecret for so long, I was so mad
for years that the first person,when I told them that they were
gay, I remember I was at asleepover party like I was my
friend Greg, spending the nightand like talking at night, like
in our, like my bed and like, hewas on his sleeping bag on the
floor and we were just like, Iwas like, I have a secret I need
(06:46):
to tell you.
Well, and like I dragged outforever, just like so afraid of
like what he would say.
and I said, I was like, I'm gay.
And it was the first time I eversaid it out loud and there was
like a long silence.
And then he said back me too.
And I was, oh, I was so pissedoff at the time that he stole my
thunder.
And I was like, this is mymoment.
This is my first time.
But such a deep response.
(07:06):
But I love it.
But like in hindsight, like.
It, it, I'm really lucky in someways that like the first person
I told, like it wasn't a bigdeal of anything.
Like they were like, me too.
Yeah.
And it showed me that, like, Iforgot along the way.
But yeah, you can have healthyrelationships with people who
were gay and have it not beabout sex.
(07:26):
Because we never like went inthat direction cuz you were
like, Going into high school andjust young and like it never
happened.
Which is sad cuz he turned outto be really hot when he grew up
But yeah, it was, it was nicethat like the first time that I
confided in someone, not onlywas it a safe space, but they
became same.
Someone that I can talk to aboutit that understood for, for a
while.
So in hindsight, I'm verygrateful for that.
(07:47):
Oh,
Charlie (07:48):
that's beautiful.
That is so beautiful.
I love that.
And yes, when I came out, it's avery happy experience.
I, you know, It was pretty muchmove-in day of college that I
was like, no more.
I am a gay boy.
I like dicks.
I love'em.
Yeah, I'm gonna be sucking them.
You know?
So it was like, that was a greatmoment for me.
(08:09):
It felt so good to be who I wasand to be surrounded by people
that were the same age as methat didn't give a shit.
So many people, you know, boys,straight boys.
That's what was so important tome.
I didn't ever really have anystraight boyfriends.
I had some, some friends thatwere my boys when I was a kid,
but when I switched schools at13, that was a rough time.
(08:34):
Everyone instantly knew I wasgay.
I wasn't out.
I was trying to hide it.
It was torturous and I justwanted boys that were friends.
So when I got to college and Irushed and there were all these
straight guys that knew I wasgay, that didn't care, that were
my friend, I was like, this isso amazing.
So yeah, when I came out I wasextremely lucky as well.
(08:56):
My family, I didn't tell my dadfor a couple years, but the
majority of my family knew rightwhen college started, and that
was one of my happiest timesbecause I was authentically
myself and just so proud.
So it really made up for thekind of scary childhood that I
had with it.
Steve (09:15):
Yeah.
And how do you feel yoursexuality in drinking or drug
use affected
Charlie (09:19):
each?
oh my gosh.
They started to go hand in handa couple years after my
addiction really had come ontothe scene.
You know, I was doing drugs, Iwas drinking, I was just a mad
man.
And that's when I started tryingto fill that hole in my life
with everything.
(09:40):
And boys came into that.
And it wasn't always for sex.
In fact, a lot of the time itwas for free drugs.
You know, it was.
I, I knew that.
I knew that I wasn't, I knewthat I was easy on the eyes.
Okay?
So I knew that I was gonna getin people's doors.
I knew that they were gonnainvite me over.
(10:01):
I knew I was gonna have noproblems there.
So I was like, fuck, get me tothese guys that have all this
shit.
If I have to have sex with'em, Iwill.
That's cool.
I've never been a huge, I am asexual person, but it's not.
It's not my main thing.
I just wanna get fucked up andhave fun and laugh and stuff.
I don't, I don't get fucked upin fuck, you know?
(10:22):
Mm-hmm.
there's, I think there's just,just some people are different,
but yeah, I, I started having somuch unprotected wild sex doing,
dabbling in meth, drinking, justlots of Xanax and.
I was cloudy.
Everything was cloudy.
My addiction, my life, my sexlife, I, I didn't date.
(10:46):
I just went from one trap houseto another and it was horrible.
And those were my worst years.
Those were my absolute worstyears.
Act like, I shouldn't say thatcuz I still had a roof to go
back to every night.
Mm-hmm.
It wouldn't get worse.
Yeah.
But that was the beginning ofthe, the worst years.
Yes.
Steve (11:02):
Yeah.
And how has your relationshipwith sex changed in recovery?
Charlie (11:07):
Oh my God.
It's been just the most, it'sbeen wild because you sober sex
is.
A whole fucking thing.
I know that was a bullet pointthat you'd wanted to talk about
too, because I'm like, it isthis huge thing because it's,
and I remember the first time,the first time I had sober sex,
let me just tell you, it waswith someone that was in
recovery too.
(11:28):
And we were living in this soberhouse and we had been living
together for about six monthsand we were just flirting
hardcore.
But we knew.
We knew it was not a good idea.
We knew we could get kicked out.
We.
that we didn't need to start a,like we knew all these things,
but we're also two men that areso fucking horny.
Yeah.
In a room by ourselves.
(11:49):
You know, like, what do you wantus to do?
and the first night that we didit, it was so awkward.
He was a recovering meth addict.
I was a recovering alcoholic.
So you know, we came at sex fromvery fucked up sex, from very
different perspectives.
I mean, he used to like to, toshoot up and go for days having
(12:09):
sex.
I obviously, Hadn't experiencedthat very much.
So I think it was such adifferent world for him to not
have needles, to not have it besuch a heightened situation.
For me, I was more used to sexbeing blurry to fumbly, to,
there was like a moreaggressive, dominant personality
(12:30):
that could come out in mewhenever I was drunk.
So I was, I was one way in thebedroom, you know?
I was able to access that.
So it.
without, I didn't know.
It was just very strange.
I was like, how do I do this?
Yeah.
How do I do what I wanna do?
What I like to do, but I don'tknow how to do it cuz I'm not
drunk.
And he was experiencing the samething cuz he wasn't spun out and
(12:52):
it, it was great.
It was great.
Don't get me wrong.
It was really, really good.
And we were both reallythankful, but it was so.
that afterward we were both justlike I, I think I'm okay with
not fucking around for a littlewhile because that, that's a lot
to process what we just bothdid.
Yeah.
And we were both on our ownjourneys, so.
(13:15):
I 100% understand the like sobersex conversation cuz it's, it's,
it's a trip the first time
Steve (13:21):
you do it.
Yeah, I was gonna say like myfirst time, like after getting
sober, like even with my husbandwas like a big deal and people
were like, oh no, like you'vebeen married for like a decade.
Like it's fine.
But like same thing, even when Iwasn't drunk, like I was stoned.
Like I was like something duringour sex for like years and years
and.
and so it was like, it was likethe first time again with this
(13:43):
person that I've known for solong and so, yeah.
Yeah, it was certainlyinteresting.
I mean, what's something thatyou've learned about your
sexuality recently?
Charlie (13:54):
It's something that I've learned about, you know, I
learned a lot in, in writing thethird book.
Just how proud, I'm really proudof myself.
I never let it get me down.
I never let the fact that I wasgay enter the negative self-talk
(14:17):
that I would feed myself.
You know, I wouldn't let, and Ithink that's great because I
think that we can use oursexuality as.
Like, maybe we don't like thecolor of our hair, or maybe we
don't like our nose.
And so when we are really mad atourselves and when we're going
for our own jugular, we're gonnapull out the things that we hate
(14:38):
the most about ourselves.
And I'm so happy that mysexuality was never one of those
weapons I would use to attackmyself, because that tells me
that it was so inherentlyaccepted and I was so inherently
okay with it.
that it, it wa you know, itwasn't even there to access as a
tool.
So I'm like, that's, that'sgood.
(15:00):
I'm proud of you for that.
Somebody did, mama or somebody,I don't know.
Somebody did something right onone thing.
Steve (15:07):
So thank God.
That's awesome.
And yeah.
What would you say is somethingregarding your sexuality that
you're still working on orfiguring out?
Charlie (15:18):
You know, the, oh God, I.
I'll tell you Bud, I I reallyhaven't been in relationships
and so that's a huge part of mysexuality that I is still just
like unknown to me.
I, I, and now that I'm sober,you know, even when I was in
(15:39):
relationships, I was fucked upon, on many things.
So I, I don't, I haven't been anadult in love, been a child, I
haven't ever been in.
in a normal, or not a normal,but like a sober functioning
state.
So that's something I grapplewith is wh do is why, first off,
(16:01):
why are you not seeking thisout?
Why is there an aversion to it?
Let's figure that out.
And then once you figure thatout and you get into a relat,
what happens if thatrelationship doesn't work out,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
like, what happens if you getyour heart broken and, and you
know yourself and, and is itgonna be an avenue for relapse?
(16:22):
Then there's just, there's it,it, it opens up so many things
for me when I start to thinkabout it.
Mm-hmm.
that it, that tells me thatthere's a lot of work there to
do.
There's a lot of work there todo because if you don't know
those answers pretty easily.
That's not a bad sign, but it'snot a great sign.
Mm-hmm.
So I do worry about that.
(16:43):
But I I don't know about datingand sex.
I'm not a sexually active personright now.
I, I'm so motivated on, on whatI need to be doing to get my
life where I want it to be, thatI've really left that untouched
and on the back burner, and I'm,I'm, I am frightened to see what
the fuck's gonna happen when Istart dazzling in that.
Steve (17:06):
Yeah, I can, I can imagine.
I mean, when do you decide, whenyou like are getting to know
someone, whether you wanted togo sexual or relationship or
kind of play that by ear
Charlie (17:17):
sex, super quick sex, probably.
If you are my type I am andyou're down for it.
I mean, I'll, let's go.
Like I don't give a shit aboutthat relationship.
No, because I don't know, youknow?
Yeah.
Because I've never, I don'tknow.
That's like a great question.
(17:38):
I, I think, I think I wouldprobably start to develop some
feelings for someone and knowvery quickly on like, Ooh, I'm,
I'm catching something for thisperson.
And then that would, would causeme to really pause and be like,
is this appropriate for youright now?
Is this what you want?
(18:00):
and why?
I don't know.
Why would I?
Because I feel like I would shutit down.
I feel like until I've achievedcertain things, it's just, I'm
just gonna shut them down.
Yeah.
Like we can fuck, but we're notgonna do anything else.
Steve (18:09):
So what do you need to achieve before you can do
anything else?
Charlie (18:14):
Financial independence.
Mm-hmm.
and freedom.
I mean, I'm financiallyindependent now, but you know,
it, it needs to be.
I need to live in a way where Ican come and go as I please and
really do what's important tome, and I think what's gonna
leave a lasting imprint.
And until I get to a place whereI can do that, I don't, I don't
(18:39):
have any interest.
because whenever I meet someone,I want to be able to give myself
to them, you know?
Yeah.
So it's like I, I'm not, I'm notthere yet.
Mm-hmm.
I get so much shit about notdating from so many people.
I feel like I should not takethis time to defend myself, but
I hear myself turning into like,well, listen, I'm just not
ready, but
Steve (18:59):
I don't push yourself.
If you're not ready, you're notready.
I won't be one of those people.
I know.
Let's switch it back then to, tosex.
What are some, what would yousay are sexual turnons for
sexuality?
Charlie (19:14):
Oh gosh.
What turn?
Well, I just a really hot man.
Mm-hmm.
turns me on.
Mm-hmm.
But more if someone's passionateabout something, I find that a
huge turn on, I findintelligence a turn on, but
it's.
(19:36):
not the intelligence where youjust like something that you've
taught yourself, I guess.
Like if you have had theintelligence to go, not just
like a degree is what I'msaying.
I mean, that's impressive too.
I'm not saying that that's not,I'm just saying like a very
honed intelligence is always, isalways a turn on for me and
(19:58):
then.
if you're just such a empatheticperson.
But yeah, a a, a tall boy withreally a tall, dark boy with
dark eyes and dark hair and abooty.
Mm-hmm.
shut down the lights.
Let's go.
Oh my.
No, don't shut those down.
No.
Keep those lights up, actually.
Steve (20:18):
But there you go.
And sexual turnoffs,
Charlie (20:22):
What's the word?
The opposite of acceptance.
that the opposite of acceptance.
Someone that's very close-mindedsomeone that has, has very small
thinking.
Mm-hmm.
it's a huge turnoff.
Anyone that's gonna wear a whatdo you call, I never get
political, but the maga manga.
No.
Make America.
(20:43):
Yeah.
Trump anyone.
Huge turnoff.
I see so many hot guys.
And then I'll, they'll have ashirt on that'll say, let's go
Brandon.
And I'm immediately like, Ew.
Now you're so fu ugly dude.
Yeah.
What so that, yeah, I
Steve (20:57):
got turn off.
I can certainly agree with that.
Yeah.
And what about if someone wasdrunk or using Turn off?
Charlie (21:07):
No, no, not a turn.
not a turn on.
Mm-hmm.
but not a turn off.
That, that immediately accessesa different part of me that
immediately gets me to a placeof fuck.
I know right where you're at.
I feel so sorry for you.
I can't I do anything.
Should I do anything?
What?
You know, that that shuts, thatputs me into a different mode,
(21:28):
even if they're hot.
Mm-hmm.
even if it was Connor Jess thatwas shooting up, I would still
be.
Let's get you well, and thenlet's get you out of those
pants.
Steve (21:37):
Good to know.
And any last words of wisdom oradvice or thoughts on sexuality
in recovery?
I
Charlie (21:47):
don't get hung up on the, don't throw yourself into a
relationship, but you can havesex.
You can most certainly have sex.
Know yourself, trust.
know your boundaries.
If sex is your issue, then donot listen to a fucking word
I've said.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, we know.
So don't be so strict.
Steve (22:09):
Perfect.
And how can listeners find youif they want more?
Charlie?
Charlie (22:14):
If you would love some more of this, Charlie, you can
go to Facebook, look up CharlieGray.
You can go to Instagram, look uphis Majesty.
Charles iii.
The easiest way, honestly, tofind me type in, at least I'm
not the frog into Google.
You'll find everything.
At least I'm not the frog.
Perfect.
That's all you need to do.
(22:34):
Yep.
Steve (22:34):
I'll make sure to include that in the shin notes, just
like usual.
Thank you so much, Yeah, andstick around.
I'm not done with you yet.
We're about to go into first aswe head on over to the Paton
Show.
But in the meantime, thank you,Charlie.
It's been a pleasure.
Charlie (22:49):
Thank you.
Steve (22:49):
Yep.
See y'all and thank youlisteners for tuning into
another episode of Gaya podcast.
Feel free to head on over to ourPatreon page as we talk about
our sexual first atpatreon.com/gaya.
And if you're interested insharing your story or just
saying, hi, I'm an email away atGay, a podcast@gmail.com or
Instagram gay podcast.
(23:10):
And follow us wherever you'relistening so you can get new
episodes when they come outevery week.
And until that time, stay soberfriends.
Hi everyone, and welcome to Gay, a podcast about sobriety
for the LGBTQ plus community andour allies.
I'm your host Steve.
Bennet-Martin.
I am an alcoholic and I amgrateful for being gay.
As of this recording, I am 626days sober, and today we're
welcoming back friend of thepodcast Charlie Gray, to talk
about discovering and embracingyour sexuality and recovery.
(00:24):
Thanks for coming back, Charlie.
Yes.
Charlie (00:27):
Hi Steve.
Thank you so much for having meback.
I love it on here.
This is great,
Steve (00:31):
Yes, I'm very excited for this episode, but before we get
into that, what's been going onsince we last talked in
December?
Charlie (00:38):
You know, not too much.
I'm still just hanging with thatbaby nephew as much as I can.
Just that time is so special.
It's so much fun.
It's everything.
I knew it was going to be.
just holding him in my arms andhe's so little and sweet and
innocent.
It just makes you really, reallyproud to be like sober and
(01:01):
present and there for that.
So that's been great.
We're gearing up for a familytrip here in a couple weeks and
that'll be a lot of fun.
And I've, you know, heavily beenfinishing up and now starting
the edits of the third.
Steve (01:19):
So Excellent.
And when does that come out?
Charlie (01:22):
That will be out May 29th of this year.
Excellent.
So just a couple months now?
Yes, yes,
Steve (01:28):
yes.
Excellent.
And why did you choose the topicof sexuality to talk about
today?
Well,
Charlie (01:35):
honestly, because in writing this third book and
really in my sober journey overthis last couple of years, it's
been, there's been a paralleljourney, journey going on with
that, you know, with, withrealizing the role my sexuality
played in my addiction and howit fueled it, how it morphed it.
(01:56):
So it's just when I saw the, thetopics, I was like, of course I
have to discuss discovering mysexuality because it.
Hand in hand with like thetrauma of losing my mother at a
young age and, and being analcoholic.
You know, those are like thethree pillars of this fucked up
man that I am
Steve (02:16):
So I hear ya.
And before we j dive into allthat trauma that oftentimes gets
associated with our sexuality doyou have any happy stories or
memories about discovering yoursexuality as a child or a young.
Charlie (02:31):
Yes.
You know, for the, for the mostpart it was, it was never like a
sad, the only thing I knew I wasgay from a very, very early age,
from about nine years old.
I understood what it meant to begay.
I had an uncle that was gay, soit wasn't something that, you
know, was foreign to my littleworld.
(02:52):
So I knew that I was the onlything.
That scared me about being gaywas, I was so young.
It was in probably around, thiswould've been around 93, 94, 95,
whenever I was like, you know,aware that I was gay, so we're
it's aids, you know, it wasstill so bad really at that
point, or we were just comingoff of it and I didn't, I didn't
(03:16):
know what sex was.
Of course, I was too young toknow what sex was or to
understand.
that disease.
I just knew that it wassomething that was associated
with gay men.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, okay, well youare, I know that you are gay and
I know that nobody will reallytalk about this disease.
I know something happened toUncle Bradley's, like boyfriend
(03:37):
or partner, but we don't reallyget into that.
So it was just this verymysterious disease that I
thought I was going to get justbecause I was gay.
Mm-hmm.
So I lived in a lot of fear as ayoung kid and.
you know, it really kind of, ithampered, didn't hamper, I guess
that's not the right word.
It just impeded a relationshipwith God because I was like, I
(04:00):
can't believe in God because whydid he make me this way and then
he is just gonna kill me off.
And so it, it, it made for a lotof confusion and a lot of fear.
But the core of me was okay withit.
I knew it was okay.
I knew.
I was still gonna be loved inthat it, it wasn't gonna be that
big of a deal.
(04:20):
So it was very mixed emotions.
Steve (04:23):
Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, I, I had a so different,different experience.
Like I remember.
even before like it was likesexual, like, like playing
around with like boys.
Like I remember I was probablylike five or six at summer camp
and I got in trouble for havingsword fights with my wiener with
another like boy.
We were like five or six, likeit obviously wasn't sexual cuz
(04:43):
we were like children, but like,yeah, in the locker room after
the pool or whatever.
We thought it was like so fun tojust like pretend our penises
were swords.
Smack'em against each other.
And it became such a huge dealat camp where like the
counselors like got my parentsinvolved, they got this other
kid's parents involved.
They called everyone in andlike, we didn't know what we
were doing or what, like, andthey made it like so wrong.
(05:06):
And we were like told like howdisgusting and wrong and
inappropriate and vile it was.
Oh, and then that just scarsyou.
Yeah, and I was like, I didn'teven know what I was doing was
like wrong or inappropriate.
Like it was just like two kidsjust like playing around with
their bodies like and veryinnocent.
Yeah, very interesting.
It's very innocent and yeah, Ijust remember like instantly
(05:27):
being like, okay, well the stuffthat I want to do I can't do
because it's wrong anddisgusting and horrible.
It's wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, did you have anyexperiences like that where you
felt wrong or othered?
Charlie (05:39):
It wasn't so much a feeling of being wrong.
It was a very early feeling ofbeing different and knowing that
that different wasn'tnecessarily a good thing.
It wasn't necessarily a badthing.
It was just a thing that maybe Ididn't want to talk about.
Yeah.
You know, I remember.
and I did grow up in a smalltown in the country, so in my
(06:00):
world, I was the only gayperson.
I didn't, there weren't gayrole, you know, it was just
like, it was a different, I knewI was different.
It wasn't wrong, but it was.
Yeah.
You just know and you're like,God, does everyone else know I'm
different?
So now I have to try so hard tobe just like everyone else, to
be so normal.
Yes.
(06:20):
That this huge difference willnever, my secret won't be out.
Steve (06:25):
Yeah.
And then, I mean, I, I do have apositive story about growing up
though.
I like, after carrying thatsecret for so long, I was so mad
for years that the first person,when I told them that they were
gay, I remember I was at asleepover party like I was my
friend Greg, spending the nightand like talking at night, like
in our, like my bed and like, hewas on his sleeping bag on the
floor and we were just like, Iwas like, I have a secret I need
(06:46):
to tell you.
Well, and like I dragged outforever, just like so afraid of
like what he would say.
and I said, I was like, I'm gay.
And it was the first time I eversaid it out loud and there was
like a long silence.
And then he said back me too.
And I was, oh, I was so pissedoff at the time that he stole my
thunder.
And I was like, this is mymoment.
This is my first time.
But such a deep response.
(07:06):
But I love it.
But like in hindsight, like.
It, it, I'm really lucky in someways that like the first person
I told, like it wasn't a bigdeal of anything.
Like they were like, me too.
Yeah.
And it showed me that, like, Iforgot along the way.
But yeah, you can have healthyrelationships with people who
were gay and have it not beabout sex.
(07:26):
Because we never like went inthat direction cuz you were
like, Going into high school andjust young and like it never
happened.
Which is sad cuz he turned outto be really hot when he grew up
But yeah, it was, it was nicethat like the first time that I
confided in someone, not onlywas it a safe space, but they
became same.
Someone that I can talk to aboutit that understood for, for a
while.
So in hindsight, I'm verygrateful for that.
(07:47):
Oh,
Charlie (07:48):
that's beautiful.
That is so beautiful.
I love that.
And yes, when I came out, it's avery happy experience.
I, you know, It was pretty muchmove-in day of college that I
was like, no more.
I am a gay boy.
I like dicks.
I love'em.
Yeah, I'm gonna be sucking them.
You know?
So it was like, that was a greatmoment for me.
(08:09):
It felt so good to be who I wasand to be surrounded by people
that were the same age as methat didn't give a shit.
So many people, you know, boys,straight boys.
That's what was so important tome.
I didn't ever really have anystraight boyfriends.
I had some, some friends thatwere my boys when I was a kid,
but when I switched schools at13, that was a rough time.
(08:34):
Everyone instantly knew I wasgay.
I wasn't out.
I was trying to hide it.
It was torturous and I justwanted boys that were friends.
So when I got to college and Irushed and there were all these
straight guys that knew I wasgay, that didn't care, that were
my friend, I was like, this isso amazing.
So yeah, when I came out I wasextremely lucky as well.
(08:56):
My family, I didn't tell my dadfor a couple years, but the
majority of my family knew rightwhen college started, and that
was one of my happiest timesbecause I was authentically
myself and just so proud.
So it really made up for thekind of scary childhood that I
had with it.
Steve (09:15):
Yeah.
And how do you feel yoursexuality in drinking or drug
use affected
Charlie (09:19):
each?
oh my gosh.
They started to go hand in handa couple years after my
addiction really had come ontothe scene.
You know, I was doing drugs, Iwas drinking, I was just a mad
man.
And that's when I started tryingto fill that hole in my life
with everything.
(09:40):
And boys came into that.
And it wasn't always for sex.
In fact, a lot of the time itwas for free drugs.
You know, it was.
I, I knew that.
I knew that I wasn't, I knewthat I was easy on the eyes.
Okay?
So I knew that I was gonna getin people's doors.
I knew that they were gonnainvite me over.
(10:01):
I knew I was gonna have noproblems there.
So I was like, fuck, get me tothese guys that have all this
shit.
If I have to have sex with'em, Iwill.
That's cool.
I've never been a huge, I am asexual person, but it's not.
It's not my main thing.
I just wanna get fucked up andhave fun and laugh and stuff.
I don't, I don't get fucked upin fuck, you know?
(10:22):
Mm-hmm.
there's, I think there's just,just some people are different,
but yeah, I, I started having somuch unprotected wild sex doing,
dabbling in meth, drinking, justlots of Xanax and.
I was cloudy.
Everything was cloudy.
My addiction, my life, my sexlife, I, I didn't date.
(10:46):
I just went from one trap houseto another and it was horrible.
And those were my worst years.
Those were my absolute worstyears.
Act like, I shouldn't say thatcuz I still had a roof to go
back to every night.
Mm-hmm.
It wouldn't get worse.
Yeah.
But that was the beginning ofthe, the worst years.
Yes.
Steve (11:02):
Yeah.
And how has your relationshipwith sex changed in recovery?
Charlie (11:07):
Oh my God.
It's been just the most, it'sbeen wild because you sober sex
is.
A whole fucking thing.
I know that was a bullet pointthat you'd wanted to talk about
too, because I'm like, it isthis huge thing because it's,
and I remember the first time,the first time I had sober sex,
let me just tell you, it waswith someone that was in
recovery too.
(11:28):
And we were living in this soberhouse and we had been living
together for about six monthsand we were just flirting
hardcore.
But we knew.
We knew it was not a good idea.
We knew we could get kicked out.
We.
that we didn't need to start a,like we knew all these things,
but we're also two men that areso fucking horny.
Yeah.
In a room by ourselves.
(11:49):
You know, like, what do you wantus to do?
and the first night that we didit, it was so awkward.
He was a recovering meth addict.
I was a recovering alcoholic.
So you know, we came at sex fromvery fucked up sex, from very
different perspectives.
I mean, he used to like to, toshoot up and go for days having
(12:09):
sex.
I obviously, Hadn't experiencedthat very much.
So I think it was such adifferent world for him to not
have needles, to not have it besuch a heightened situation.
For me, I was more used to sexbeing blurry to fumbly, to,
there was like a moreaggressive, dominant personality
(12:30):
that could come out in mewhenever I was drunk.
So I was, I was one way in thebedroom, you know?
I was able to access that.
So it.
without, I didn't know.
It was just very strange.
I was like, how do I do this?
Yeah.
How do I do what I wanna do?
What I like to do, but I don'tknow how to do it cuz I'm not
drunk.
And he was experiencing the samething cuz he wasn't spun out and
(12:52):
it, it was great.
It was great.
Don't get me wrong.
It was really, really good.
And we were both reallythankful, but it was so.
that afterward we were both justlike I, I think I'm okay with
not fucking around for a littlewhile because that, that's a lot
to process what we just bothdid.
Yeah.
And we were both on our ownjourneys, so.
(13:15):
I 100% understand the like sobersex conversation cuz it's, it's,
it's a trip the first time
Steve (13:21):
you do it.
Yeah, I was gonna say like myfirst time, like after getting
sober, like even with my husbandwas like a big deal and people
were like, oh no, like you'vebeen married for like a decade.
Like it's fine.
But like same thing, even when Iwasn't drunk, like I was stoned.
Like I was like something duringour sex for like years and years
and.
and so it was like, it was likethe first time again with this
(13:43):
person that I've known for solong and so, yeah.
Yeah, it was certainlyinteresting.
I mean, what's something thatyou've learned about your
sexuality recently?
Charlie (13:54):
It's something that I've learned about, you know, I
learned a lot in, in writing thethird book.
Just how proud, I'm really proudof myself.
I never let it get me down.
I never let the fact that I wasgay enter the negative self-talk
(14:17):
that I would feed myself.
You know, I wouldn't let, and Ithink that's great because I
think that we can use oursexuality as.
Like, maybe we don't like thecolor of our hair, or maybe we
don't like our nose.
And so when we are really mad atourselves and when we're going
for our own jugular, we're gonnapull out the things that we hate
(14:38):
the most about ourselves.
And I'm so happy that mysexuality was never one of those
weapons I would use to attackmyself, because that tells me
that it was so inherentlyaccepted and I was so inherently
okay with it.
that it, it wa you know, itwasn't even there to access as a
tool.
So I'm like, that's, that'sgood.
(15:00):
I'm proud of you for that.
Somebody did, mama or somebody,I don't know.
Somebody did something right onone thing.
Steve (15:07):
So thank God.
That's awesome.
And yeah.
What would you say is somethingregarding your sexuality that
you're still working on orfiguring out?
Charlie (15:18):
You know, the, oh God, I.
I'll tell you Bud, I I reallyhaven't been in relationships
and so that's a huge part of mysexuality that I is still just
like unknown to me.
I, I, and now that I'm sober,you know, even when I was in
(15:39):
relationships, I was fucked upon, on many things.
So I, I don't, I haven't been anadult in love, been a child, I
haven't ever been in.
in a normal, or not a normal,but like a sober functioning
state.
So that's something I grapplewith is wh do is why, first off,
(16:01):
why are you not seeking thisout?
Why is there an aversion to it?
Let's figure that out.
And then once you figure thatout and you get into a relat,
what happens if thatrelationship doesn't work out,
you know?
Mm-hmm.
like, what happens if you getyour heart broken and, and you
know yourself and, and is itgonna be an avenue for relapse?
(16:22):
Then there's just, there's it,it, it opens up so many things
for me when I start to thinkabout it.
Mm-hmm.
that it, that tells me thatthere's a lot of work there to
do.
There's a lot of work there todo because if you don't know
those answers pretty easily.
That's not a bad sign, but it'snot a great sign.
Mm-hmm.
So I do worry about that.
(16:43):
But I I don't know about datingand sex.
I'm not a sexually active personright now.
I, I'm so motivated on, on whatI need to be doing to get my
life where I want it to be, thatI've really left that untouched
and on the back burner, and I'm,I'm, I am frightened to see what
the fuck's gonna happen when Istart dazzling in that.
Steve (17:06):
Yeah, I can, I can imagine.
I mean, when do you decide, whenyou like are getting to know
someone, whether you wanted togo sexual or relationship or
kind of play that by ear
Charlie (17:17):
sex, super quick sex, probably.
If you are my type I am andyou're down for it.
I mean, I'll, let's go.
Like I don't give a shit aboutthat relationship.
No, because I don't know, youknow?
Yeah.
Because I've never, I don'tknow.
That's like a great question.
(17:38):
I, I think, I think I wouldprobably start to develop some
feelings for someone and knowvery quickly on like, Ooh, I'm,
I'm catching something for thisperson.
And then that would, would causeme to really pause and be like,
is this appropriate for youright now?
Is this what you want?
(18:00):
and why?
I don't know.
Why would I?
Because I feel like I would shutit down.
I feel like until I've achievedcertain things, it's just, I'm
just gonna shut them down.
Yeah.
Like we can fuck, but we're notgonna do anything else.
Steve (18:09):
So what do you need to achieve before you can do
anything else?
Charlie (18:14):
Financial independence.
Mm-hmm.
and freedom.
I mean, I'm financiallyindependent now, but you know,
it, it needs to be.
I need to live in a way where Ican come and go as I please and
really do what's important tome, and I think what's gonna
leave a lasting imprint.
And until I get to a place whereI can do that, I don't, I don't
(18:39):
have any interest.
because whenever I meet someone,I want to be able to give myself
to them, you know?
Yeah.
So it's like I, I'm not, I'm notthere yet.
Mm-hmm.
I get so much shit about notdating from so many people.
I feel like I should not takethis time to defend myself, but
I hear myself turning into like,well, listen, I'm just not
ready, but
Steve (18:59):
I don't push yourself.
If you're not ready, you're notready.
I won't be one of those people.
I know.
Let's switch it back then to, tosex.
What are some, what would yousay are sexual turnons for
sexuality?
Charlie (19:14):
Oh gosh.
What turn?
Well, I just a really hot man.
Mm-hmm.
turns me on.
Mm-hmm.
But more if someone's passionateabout something, I find that a
huge turn on, I findintelligence a turn on, but
it's.
(19:36):
not the intelligence where youjust like something that you've
taught yourself, I guess.
Like if you have had theintelligence to go, not just
like a degree is what I'msaying.
I mean, that's impressive too.
I'm not saying that that's not,I'm just saying like a very
honed intelligence is always, isalways a turn on for me and
(19:58):
then.
if you're just such a empatheticperson.
But yeah, a a, a tall boy withreally a tall, dark boy with
dark eyes and dark hair and abooty.
Mm-hmm.
shut down the lights.
Let's go.
Oh my.
No, don't shut those down.
No.
Keep those lights up, actually.
Steve (20:18):
But there you go.
And sexual turnoffs,
Charlie (20:22):
What's the word?
The opposite of acceptance.
that the opposite of acceptance.
Someone that's very close-mindedsomeone that has, has very small
thinking.
Mm-hmm.
it's a huge turnoff.
Anyone that's gonna wear a whatdo you call, I never get
political, but the maga manga.
No.
Make America.
(20:43):
Yeah.
Trump anyone.
Huge turnoff.
I see so many hot guys.
And then I'll, they'll have ashirt on that'll say, let's go
Brandon.
And I'm immediately like, Ew.
Now you're so fu ugly dude.
Yeah.
What so that, yeah, I
Steve (20:57):
got turn off.
I can certainly agree with that.
Yeah.
And what about if someone wasdrunk or using Turn off?
Charlie (21:07):
No, no, not a turn.
not a turn on.
Mm-hmm.
but not a turn off.
That, that immediately accessesa different part of me that
immediately gets me to a placeof fuck.
I know right where you're at.
I feel so sorry for you.
I can't I do anything.
Should I do anything?
What?
You know, that that shuts, thatputs me into a different mode,
(21:28):
even if they're hot.
Mm-hmm.
even if it was Connor Jess thatwas shooting up, I would still
be.
Let's get you well, and thenlet's get you out of those
pants.
Steve (21:37):
Good to know.
And any last words of wisdom oradvice or thoughts on sexuality
in recovery?
I
Charlie (21:47):
don't get hung up on the, don't throw yourself into a
relationship, but you can havesex.
You can most certainly have sex.
Know yourself, trust.
know your boundaries.
If sex is your issue, then donot listen to a fucking word
I've said.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, we know.
So don't be so strict.
Steve (22:09):
Perfect.
And how can listeners find youif they want more?
Charlie?
Charlie (22:14):
If you would love some more of this, Charlie, you can
go to Facebook, look up CharlieGray.
You can go to Instagram, look uphis Majesty.
Charles iii.
The easiest way, honestly, tofind me type in, at least I'm
not the frog into Google.
You'll find everything.
At least I'm not the frog.
Perfect.
That's all you need to do.
(22:34):
Yep.
Steve (22:34):
I'll make sure to include that in the shin notes, just
like usual.
Thank you so much, Yeah, andstick around.
I'm not done with you yet.
We're about to go into first aswe head on over to the Paton
Show.
But in the meantime, thank you,Charlie.
It's been a pleasure.
Charlie (22:49):
Thank you.
Steve (22:49):
Yep.
See y'all and thank youlisteners for tuning into
another episode of Gaya podcast.
Feel free to head on over to ourPatreon page as we talk about
our sexual first atpatreon.com/gaya.
And if you're interested insharing your story or just
saying, hi, I'm an email away atGay, a podcast@gmail.com or
Instagram gay podcast.
(23:10):
And follow us wherever you'relistening so you can get new
episodes when they come outevery week.
And until that time, stay soberfriends.
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