April 27, 2023 • 25 mins
Steve welcomes back friend of the podcast, Kristen, to discuss feeling sober but stuck, and how we overcome ruts in recovery.
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Until next time, stay sober friends!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Steve (00:03):
Hi everyone and welcome to Gay a, a podcast about
sobriety for the LGBTQ pluscommunity and our allies.
I'm your host SteveBennet-Martin.
I am an alcoholic.
I'm grateful for mysister-in-law, Darcy.
As of this recording, I am 630days sober and today we are
welcoming back friend of thepodcast and my sober sibling.
Kristen, welcome back.
Kristen (00:25):
Nice.
Steve, you, thanks for
Steve (00:26):
having me back.
Yes, it is always good having atrue friend on.
I know it's been a minute sinceour last episode, I think it was
when we were celebrating ouranniversaries.
Kristen (00:36):
Whoa.
Then yeah, that was a while ago.
So what's been
Steve (00:39):
going on since then?
Oh
Kristen (00:41):
my gosh.
I mean a lot and also not thatmuch.
I got my anniversary as Did you?
Congratulations.
I started sponsoring.
I might have, maybe we were juston the verge of that.
Yeah.
Probably every year.
So I've had two Spons so far.
I have been, I mean, we still goto mustard seed all the time,
(01:01):
although I go a little.
less maybe than I used to, isI've been going to more in
person and sort of trying someother meetings and styles out.
Lifewise things are pretty muchthe same still in Brooklyn
still, you know, kicking it withmy nieces living life.
Excellent.
Steve (01:19):
And out of all the things we could spend our day talking
about, why did you choose sober,but.
Kristen (01:25):
I mean, maybe just cause I'm a moody emo bitch, but
no, I.
Thought I have been feeling alittle stuck and it's one of
those things where I feel likemaybe just talking about it
would help, you know, so I, Ipicked that.
I, I don't know that I wouldlike only describe myself as
stuck, you know?
I think there's gotten a lot ofprogress in a lot of ways, but I
(01:48):
feel like I'm not the onlyperson who feels funny and like
adolescent at about a year and ahalf, which is what we have.
So I thought it would be a
Steve (01:57):
good.
I certainly agree it wassuggested by listener and former
guest, mark.
So it's something that, youknow, obviously people want to
hear about cuz we all go throughit no matter how long we have in
the program.
If you're in it like long enoughor sober long enough, like
they're highs and lows and so, Ithink part of it, like looking
(02:18):
back, I know that we both sharedour stories before, but like
today, looking back at thosebeginning day counting days, how
do you remember those?
What was it like?
Kristen (02:28):
Oh my gosh.
I mean, I don't know if this is,if I'm the only person who feels
this way, but I consistentlylook back on the worst periods
of my life with this weirdtwinge of, of nostalgia.
Mm-hmm.
I think cuz everything was sointense and a lot of times when
I f like there's no part of methat wants to go back there.
I know.
Objectively it was so hard.
And yet I have, it's like I wasjust feeling my feelings, you
(02:51):
know, crying every night,connecting with people like
really?
In the swirl.
And so like, my memories a bitreally vivid and kind of like I
don't know, just, I think we saythis a lot when people come in
and do qualifications, but it'slike the people who are, who are
in the rooms with you andespecially have a little bit
more time for like, celebrities.
(03:13):
You know?
It's just like every experienceis a little more intense.
And so I am very, very grateful.
I'm no longer there.
Happy to have the time that Ido, but yeah, it was, I, I, I
was I was alive for better orfor worse.
is how I would describe myself.
Steve (03:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I can agree.
I mean, I look back and like,especially those like first few
days, like I remember just likebeing a mess.
Like not being able to likecomprehend a full sentence or
two.
I remember like being at workand someone would be, Spent a
half an hour talking to me aboutwhat my assignment is for the
day, and they leave the room andwithin five seconds I'd look
over at my coworker and be like,wait, what?
(03:54):
Absolut.
I, I like, I definitely had likea fog brain, like as I was going
through dts, but like even afterthat, like I had the, like I
went to a wedding five days orsix days sober, which was not
the best idea, but I justremember it being like
everything, like you said, likevery intense.
But at the same time I was like,ready to do anything and like,
right.
But that I think is likesomething that, like we forget
(04:16):
sometimes is like that newnessof like that earnest desire of
like, you need to make this
Kristen (04:21):
work.
Right?
Which is when it goes away, youhave to find other motivations
and sort of.
Fuel, which is maybe why soberand stuck then becomes a good
topic,
Steve (04:33):
Yeah.
And since we both work aprogram, a 12 step program, what
was your experience like goingthrough the steps?
Kristen (04:41):
I mean it was really powerful.
I.
Had a sort of rough start.
I had three sponsors in likethree weeks.
But when I really got a sponsorthat I cared about a lot, she
really helped me.
I mean, it's funny now becausenow I'm doing it with a sponsee
and I just said my memories arevery intense and vivid.
(05:03):
And that's true in terms oflike, the room I was in or like
people's faces.
But when I try to now rememberlike what the hell my sponsor
said to me when I was workingstep one, it's a total blank.
I'm like, W she must have saidsomething.
It saved my life.
But did my brain record thewords so I can say them to a
spy?
No, it certainly did not.
(05:23):
But yeah, I mean, I rememberdoing a lot of.
journaling, A lot of talkingsort of at my poor sponsor.
Kind of my mouth going a mile aminute for like, especially for
the first few.
I felt a lot of relief on stepthree.
I remember like I started sayingthat prayer that I still say.
(05:45):
And then I sat on step four theway it seems like many, if not
most people do but then workedit and had a very.
Powerful step five experiencewhere I was in LA where my
sponsor lives, she'd been my youknow, we, we mostly talked over
Zoom, so we did it in person andthat was really profound.
And I, and I'm really gratefulfor it.
And then eight, nine, and 10sorry.
(06:08):
No, this is going a little long.
They were powerful.
They, they didn't have and thishas been true actually of.
A, a lot of people I've spokento, and especially women being
sponsored by women that I, Iimagined this like giant apology
tour through the wreckage of mylife and my sponsor mostly was
like, no, I don't think thatperson needs to hear from you.
So I only really did two orthree in person a.
(06:33):
A few more sort of like, andprobably should still do some
more where I just like write theletter and don't send it.
But I do think it helped a lotin that now I feel like I know
what an amend is and I can justmake it kind of casually right
away.
And then 11 and 12, I mean, I'mstill working on 11 to try and
get a prayer meditation practicegoing, but I do.
And then 12th is.
(06:53):
So now I'm in the, in the thickof it.
You're
Steve (06:56):
in the thick of it, for sure.
And while, while going throughthose steps, did you find
yourself in any ruts along theway?
Yeah, well
Kristen (07:04):
I mentioned the sort of sitting on step four.
Yeah.
That feels that felt like a rutat the time.
Or just, it just never feltsatisfying.
And even now, You know, somepeople work the steps every year
and I do feel like I got lost inthe weeds a lot that first time.
Or I just was like writing, I'mwriting, writing, I'm doing this
right?
Am I doing that right?
(07:24):
And like I kind of almost wishor have the idea that I would
try to do it again, kind of morewith my gut instead of like
getting the right answers.
Saying the true answers.
I feel like maybe I did that afew times or I like was too good
of a student.
So.
Yeah, I think less of a rut inthat.
I like it was good to, I don'tknow, my homework doing brain
(07:47):
does its homework, you know,like I, I could turn in the
paper, but like, was I engagingwith it emotionally in the best
way?
I'm not sure certainly as, aswell as I could do at the time,
but
Steve (07:55):
yeah, yeah, I, I can really, I did everything I could
to like not start the fourthstep until he was like, had no
choice but like to do anythingelse.
And I was like, Now I'll do it.
But like, right, that was a rut.
And then like, writing out allmy amends, like I was expecting
it to be, we like way worse.
And I think part of it was cuzlet, let like you, like my
sponsor was like, you don't needto get into all that.
(08:17):
Or like, they don't need to hearor like, there's no way you can
track down that person cuz youneed to learn what their first
name is like before you sleepwith them.
Like, not after, not, not afteryou've burned it all down, but
like before you get to know.
So you know, but I definitely amglad that it's done.
But it'll be interesting alsolike going back down the road
and like doing them again cuz Iknow that that's like something
(08:38):
people do right.
And like going in deeper.
Cuz I definitely think thatlike, especially.
like with my resentments, likethere were things that like I
didn't go as deep into like,well in fourth grade this person
who bullied me, like I heard fewpeople like who have like books
of things that like chronic,like go through their whole
life.
And mine was really just like,what's going on with my life at
that time?
Like my list was all people likein that job that I'm not even at
(09:00):
anymore.
Kristen (09:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I do think amends havethe most power and maybe.
are the most are useful when arelationship is ongoing.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that was ask myself a lot.
Like if I've lost track, losttouch with this person, they
have not expressed any interestto hear from me for good reason.
I don't want to reconnect withthem.
(09:21):
Yeah.
What good does it do to callthem up and be like, Hey,
remember the time I sucked, likeI will continue not to do that
because we're never gonna talkagain, you know?
So I don't know.
I'm curious.
This is slightly a sidetrack.
I was talking to somebody theother day and I realized we both
sort of have the idea sometimesthat if we have a resentment,
(09:43):
there's some, not that we don'thave a part, but like is there
something for us to do?
Do you know what I mean?
Like I guess we just work.
Oh, did you freeze?
No,
Steve (09:56):
I'm here.
I was just listening veryintently.
You were, you
Kristen (09:59):
really were.
I don't even know if I wannafollow this conversational
trail, but anyway, my friend wasjust like, I had this resentment
to this person that I like,don't see and don't engage with,
and I don't really think I didanything wrong other than be
sort of jealous, you know?
(10:20):
So I can't apologize for havinglike a negative feeling.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
If I know that it's my part, solike what do I do?
And I was like, I don't know, Idon't know how you like, cause
because it, it's not quite thecorrect use of an amend to just
make a feeling go away.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
And that actually leads intolike, I don't know, we'll talk
probably about other 12 stepprograms, but like Al-Anon or
(10:42):
something where it's just like,man, relationships are
complicated and.
I, it's hard to to know how to,how to manage them well.
But anyway,
Steve (10:53):
yeah.
I think we're all figuring itout.
Yeah.
But what would you say are someof the more difficult moments
you've faced in your recovery
Kristen (11:02):
ever?
You mean in the past year and ahalf?
Yeah.
Yeah, I, well, right after I gotsober I had a kind of scary,
kind of like both.
work, but also personalsituation kind of blow up in my
face where it would've been veryscary and stressful at the best
of times.
But when I actually look at thethree, like the stuff that
(11:25):
happened in the three monthsafter I got sober I'm just like,
it's astonishing that that allhappened right then.
Like it's just ridiculous that Iwas managing that at the same
time I was managing to getsober.
And it's like, on the one hand,all of those things, like in one
way or another had their rootsof my behavior when I was
drinking.
So it's like, it's not like as Isometimes felt God was punishing
(11:48):
me, and yet the timing of it waskind of extraordinary.
And so like I think about howand I, and I mean, I was lo, I
mean, I was lucky that I had mysponsor and I had meetings and
all of that stuff at that time,and it, it adds that feeling of
(12:08):
intensity where I was just likeliving life at the highest
pitch, being like, I don't knowhow to live like somebody tell
me.
Yeah.
And all these things were kindof crashing in that were really
pushing me to my limit.
So since then I feel like youknow, I've.
Relationship conflicts or, youknow, problems with my parents
or, but there's just beennothing of like that whirlwind
(12:28):
that.
Carried me in to sobriety Yeah,I
Steve (12:32):
was gonna say, I, I remember you went through quite
the whirlwind there for likequite a while.
Like every day was like anotherepisode of like, has I know
Kristen's world turns like
Kristen (12:42):
I know, I know.
And I was like, at the time Iwas like, am I making this out?
Like, is this just life?
Have I just been drunk thiswhole, no, just a lot of really
intense things happened in likeMay, June and July or whatever
of early sobriety.
Yeah.
Thank, thank God.
Like I said, I have sobriety toget me through it, you know, but
Steve (12:59):
damn, that's awesome.
And what about any recent rutsyou've been encountering?
So,
Kristen (13:06):
yeah, well, I guess I could say about to, yeah, to
move into the question of what asobriety rut looks like.
And I wanna hear what you haveto say too.
I, I guess I started kind ofalluding to it when I was like,
I, I feel.
On the one hand, I feel strongon my sobriety.
It's at the core of my life.
(13:27):
I go to a lot of meetings.
I do a lot of service.
I have a Spee, I have a sponsor.
I don't, I've worked the steps.
I'm grateful for what is givenme, which is a lot.
At the same time, for example, alot of people say, like they
don't get cravings anymore.
(13:48):
Mm-hmm.
and I still get them every day.
Like today I wanted to like goget some ramen and I went in and
I sat down and I was like, whoa,I don't know if I can stay here
because I want a beer so bad.
Like when people to my right, myleft were drinking, I was just
like, when does that go away?
You know?
And sort of similarly, like Iwas saying about the
relationship.
(14:09):
I feel like I do try to engagewith other people differently
and I, I am better for, youknow, having worked the steps
and like made amends and allthat, but it's just like, people
still really complicate it.
I, I just think I like, have,not, like how dare they offer me
a set of tools for a living thatdon't solve all my problems in
(14:31):
18 months?
You know, like, yeah, what isthis giving my money back?
But like, yeah, I would say thatlike, the two things that both
strike me is that myinterpersonal relationships
still, like with my, witheverybody, you know what I mean?
I'm not talking about, but justlike, I often still bump up
against'em.
I don't feel like I know.
how to use the tool or I think arut is like, I feel like I'm
(14:54):
using the tools and yet I'mstill kind of like, for whatever
reason, having a hard time.
You know, if I'm not, if I'mjust not using the tools, it's
not a rut, it's just me beinglazy and I can do that.
But a rut is when I'm like, wentto a meeting and I prayed on it.
I talked to my sponsor about itand made three calls and I put
in the got box and like thisperson's still driving me crazy.
You know?
Yeah.
(15:15):
But yeah.
What about you?
What, what does
Steve (15:17):
it mean?
I mean, it really depends onlike how you define it.
Cuz like there would definitelyhave.
Ruts in my recovery where I'mnot working as hard, but it is,
like you said, like is a rut.
Just laziness because like I'vehad those times where like I
recorded a month of episodes inadvance, so I didn't have to do
any podcasting for three weeksand I wasn't planning any sober
(15:38):
socials in my area until thefollowing month.
And so like there might be likethree or four weeks.
I maybe going to three or fourmeetings a night, like a week.
But like when I go to themeetings, I'm like on my phone
playing my games the entiretime.
Like I definitely have beenguilty of having like those
kinds of ruts where like I wasstill doing the things, but it
was like the bare minimum and Iwasn't reaching out to people.
(15:59):
But like that was like a lack ofwork.
I would say that like in termsof when I was doing all the
things and it felt like itwasn't working.
Kind of burnout from like thebest week ever.
But like last week when I wentto GSM and like I saw you in New
York and.
I had like the best of my, mylife.
Like, it was a really hard,like, going back to the real
world after that, like afterspending a week like with my
(16:22):
fellows, finding this communityof like, like-minded, sober,
like queer people and just likeliving my free, authentic life
and not having a worry in theworld, or not having to work or
have sales goals or like ahusband to take care of.
And just like being out on myown, like coming back like life
was.
and like I would reach out topeople all day long.
I would go to multiple meetingsand like at the, I was like,
(16:45):
still.
I don't like my life.
Like I want to just be livingrecovery, which is impossible.
Like part of like the readingthat you
Kristen (16:52):
had me do last night, last last night, just just said.
Yeah.
But do you feel, I mean,speaking of being on your phone
and meetings, I mean, do youhave that feeling?
I sometimes I'm just.
Sometimes meetings are the mostprofound things I've ever been
to like the entire humantapestry on display.
Like people in their feelings,miracles happening, and then
other times they're so boring, Ilike cannot pay attention to
(17:14):
save my life.
And I'm just like, and it'sreally mostly true on Zoom, I
don't think, if I get to ameeting, is that true?
Sometimes I'm crawling outta myskin, but I'm not bored in the
same way.
Yeah.
But every once in a while, likeI just.
it feels like everybody's sayingthe same thing over and over and
(17:35):
over, and I just, this likebratty.
Like teenager in my head islike, I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I'm so mean.
And then it's something shiftsand I love them again, but it's
very real.
Steve (17:48):
Oh yeah.
And I, I think that like, it'salso different in that like,
since we're Zoom babies, likeyeah, people will act
differently like on a Zoommeeting than they would ever in
a person, person, like in personmeeting.
I mean there have been like in acouple in-person meetings where
I was not feeling it.
It was not for me, but like thestruggle was me staying awake
and keeping my eyes open cuzthey just kept on like closing
as I was like drifting off andit wasn't great.
(18:10):
Yeah.
But I've also been to like someof the best meetings I've been
to, I've been in person ones,but like online, you, if you
look through, like, especiallywhen I bounce and like I'm
watching all the boxes for likesketchy people.
Like remember of people I seelike clearly like doing
something else or asleep or likeclosing their eyes,
Kristen (18:26):
oh, I fell asleep in a Zoom meeting when.
Traveling the other day and Iwas so embarrassed.
I was like, on my, I thought mycamera was off and I was on my
phone, and then I was asleep,and then I was back up on my
phone, and then I looked at mycomputer and I just saw myself,
you know, like sprawled out inutter disarray and I was so
Steve (18:40):
embarrassed.
I know, and I'm sure like ithappens to people.
Yeah.
But like, like, you know, therewas one person in our meeting
for a while that like the, theend of fellowship, they're still
there and they haven't moved,and you're like, are they alive?
Like, are they breathing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, I think getting stuck.
Yeah, that was like the one timewhere, and I think just the
(19:00):
solution for that was time, likeadjusting back to life and
having to realize that like Ican't just completely change my
life cuz I had one good awesomeweek, Right.
But ultimately, like did havegood things like that weekend is
what inspired me, like move outof sales and no, I'm happy.
So it works.
Yeah.
I mean, how have you foundyourself overcoming ruts when
you get into.
(19:21):
Well, I think one
Kristen (19:22):
thing is, and we, I think we've talked about this
before too, it's like sometimes,especially at the beginner's
meeting at Mustard Seed, itfeels like, oh, I shouldn't take
up time from the people who arejust counting Daniels.
And I think.
Sometimes that's true.
Like if there's a lot ofnewcomers, I won't put my hand
up, but then I need to go to adifferent meeting because if I'm
(19:43):
not getting my hand up, likeonce my hand is up, I'm paying
attention.
If only because my ego is like,you don't wanna say something
somebody already said, you know?
Yeah.
Or whatever.
So making sure I have a reasonto pay attention, whether it's
having my hand up or service.
I think that's right.
And I also try to listen to myboredom.
That's the thing I do withwriting too.
(20:04):
If I'm bored, maybe I'm notgetting what I need.
Like, sometimes you just have topush through it.
But other times it's like maybeyou need a literature meeting or
a step meeting or another,another program, which is, you
know, something I've thoughtabout a lot and have been tr
experimenting with.
You know, cuz that's how yougrow.
So sometimes it's a sign thatlike, yeah, this is not working.
Try somewhere else.
Yeah.
(20:24):
I guess so far that's what I've,what I've been doing and
sponsorship I do think is reallylike where it's at.
I feel like if you're not tryingto sponsor.
like that's why you would payattention.
Like I did step one, like whywould I ever have to pay
attention to step one again?
It's like, oh, if I'm trying toexplain it to someone, I'm like,
oh, I actually have no idea whatit's I to learn it all over
(20:45):
again.
And I think that's probably likelong term, the real key is that
you don't actually know anythinguntil you've tried to teach it.
Yeah.
Like, yeah,
Steve (20:54):
it'll work out for me eventually.
I'm not.
Kristen (20:56):
I mean, doing it, is it working out?
It's like that story about Billbeing like, nobody's getting
sober, you know?
And then Lois is being like,spill.
You're the one who's stillsober.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like there's no not working out.
I know, I know.
It's like hard, but yeah.
You're doing it.
It's working out.
Steve (21:13):
Yeah.
And we both have mentioned howlike service helps keep us
sober.
What does service mean to.
I
Kristen (21:19):
mean, a lot of it's just a reason I have to sh like
I have to show up, you know whatI mean?
I feel like I am codependent andresponsible enough that like,
just not wanting to get introuble or let people down is
something like, will get meoutta bed where this is good for
you and may even save your life.
Won't, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And so a lot of it is just likeexternal, it's like an
(21:41):
exoskeleton.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to make me actually goto meetings.
Yeah.
I feel like that's it.
Just like practice getting, Ihave a problem in my real life
saying no, you know, like I'llsay yes to things.
I sometimes I feel like thelike.
First explanation of service inai, which is like you're
(22:03):
inherently selfish and you needto think about other people for
a once in your goddamn life islike not quite reflective of.
Me and the way that I like amselfish.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you can be selfish byalways being like, I'm such an
angel.
I help everyone.
I say yes to everything, da, dada da da, and seething with
resentment underneath.
You know what I mean?
So for me, asking myself like,am I really being of service?
(22:27):
A thing I did actually that Ifeel like is big for me is that
I nominated.
I was nominated to be theoverall chair.
I told you about this at thegroup I go to in person.
And I just felt in my gut, I'mnot ready.
I don't wanna do this right now.
I don't think I'm the rightperson.
And it was so hard for me to belike, couldn't say no.
I had to be like, can I thinkabout it?
(22:48):
And then I called my sponsor andI was like, I don't think this
is the right service positionfor me right now.
And we talked it through and shewas like, that sounds good.
And I told the people and theywere so fine with it.
And I feel like being honestabout your capabil.
also is trying to be like, can Ireally be of service?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Steve (23:07):
I need to hear that because I need people to like me
more than anything.
Kristen (23:12):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it's its own set of likeprops, you know?
Mm-hmm.
and that's what Al-Anon is for.
Yeah.
The Secret.
Aa.
The sequel.
Alanon.
Mm-hmm.
Steve (23:26):
Yeah.
And if someone is listeningright now and is struggling in
their sobriety, what advicewould you have for them?
I
Kristen (23:33):
mean, go to a meeting, call your sponsor, Yeah.
Read the literature.
Make three phone calls.
I mean, that's the funny thingabout AI advice that's different
from friend advice or therapyadvice.
It's so simple, you know?
there is no other answer.
Mm-hmm.
And if you've done all thatstuff and you still have a
question, like there might notbe an answer right now.
(23:53):
Like that's the thing about likewith ruts, we might just have to
be in a rut.
Yeah.
Like that's powerlessness,right?
That's step one.
Sometimes you're just like, wow,this isn't that fun or profound
or meaningful.
Wow.
I'm so sorry that being soberisn't exciting for you right
now.
you know, like crimey of fuckingrivers, sometimes you're in a
rush.
And so that's what I would say,but also like it'll probably
(24:15):
pass cuz everything does.
but I'm in it right now, so Ialso don't have, you know, call
someone with more sobriety thanme, cuz right now this is the
problem of living rather thanone that I have solved
Steve (24:26):
Sounds good.
Well thank you so much forcoming back on and talking about
overcoming those ruts insobriety.
Kristen (24:33):
Yeah.
Noah, thanks for having me.
It's always so fun to talk toyou.
Steve (24:36):
Yes.
And this is normally the pointwhere we would plug your
socials, but they don't exist.
No, they're secret.
So instead, I will plug mine.
You can follow me at gay podcaston Instagram or email
me@gaypodcastgmail.com.
If you want more, Kristen,definitely head on over to our
Paton page cuz we're gonna headon over there for our post show
(24:57):
where we're gonna talk about ourexperiences sponsoring.
And if you want to share yourstory or again involved, email
me and follow us wherever you'relistening so you can get new
episodes when they come outevery Thursday.
Until next time, stay soberfriends.
Hi everyone and welcome to Gay a, a podcast about
sobriety for the LGBTQ pluscommunity and our allies.
I'm your host SteveBennet-Martin.
I am an alcoholic.
I'm grateful for mysister-in-law, Darcy.
As of this recording, I am 630days sober and today we are
welcoming back friend of thepodcast and my sober sibling.
Kristen, welcome back.
Kristen (00:25):
Nice.
Steve, you, thanks for
Steve (00:26):
having me back.
Yes, it is always good having atrue friend on.
I know it's been a minute sinceour last episode, I think it was
when we were celebrating ouranniversaries.
Kristen (00:36):
Whoa.
Then yeah, that was a while ago.
So what's been
Steve (00:39):
going on since then?
Oh
Kristen (00:41):
my gosh.
I mean a lot and also not thatmuch.
I got my anniversary as Did you?
Congratulations.
I started sponsoring.
I might have, maybe we were juston the verge of that.
Yeah.
Probably every year.
So I've had two Spons so far.
I have been, I mean, we still goto mustard seed all the time,
(01:01):
although I go a little.
less maybe than I used to, isI've been going to more in
person and sort of trying someother meetings and styles out.
Lifewise things are pretty muchthe same still in Brooklyn
still, you know, kicking it withmy nieces living life.
Excellent.
Steve (01:19):
And out of all the things we could spend our day talking
about, why did you choose sober,but.
Kristen (01:25):
I mean, maybe just cause I'm a moody emo bitch, but
no, I.
Thought I have been feeling alittle stuck and it's one of
those things where I feel likemaybe just talking about it
would help, you know, so I, Ipicked that.
I, I don't know that I wouldlike only describe myself as
stuck, you know?
I think there's gotten a lot ofprogress in a lot of ways, but I
(01:48):
feel like I'm not the onlyperson who feels funny and like
adolescent at about a year and ahalf, which is what we have.
So I thought it would be a
Steve (01:57):
good.
I certainly agree it wassuggested by listener and former
guest, mark.
So it's something that, youknow, obviously people want to
hear about cuz we all go throughit no matter how long we have in
the program.
If you're in it like long enoughor sober long enough, like
they're highs and lows and so, Ithink part of it, like looking
(02:18):
back, I know that we both sharedour stories before, but like
today, looking back at thosebeginning day counting days, how
do you remember those?
What was it like?
Kristen (02:28):
Oh my gosh.
I mean, I don't know if this is,if I'm the only person who feels
this way, but I consistentlylook back on the worst periods
of my life with this weirdtwinge of, of nostalgia.
Mm-hmm.
I think cuz everything was sointense and a lot of times when
I f like there's no part of methat wants to go back there.
I know.
Objectively it was so hard.
And yet I have, it's like I wasjust feeling my feelings, you
(02:51):
know, crying every night,connecting with people like
really?
In the swirl.
And so like, my memories a bitreally vivid and kind of like I
don't know, just, I think we saythis a lot when people come in
and do qualifications, but it'slike the people who are, who are
in the rooms with you andespecially have a little bit
more time for like, celebrities.
(03:13):
You know?
It's just like every experienceis a little more intense.
And so I am very, very grateful.
I'm no longer there.
Happy to have the time that Ido, but yeah, it was, I, I, I
was I was alive for better orfor worse.
is how I would describe myself.
Steve (03:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, I can agree.
I mean, I look back and like,especially those like first few
days, like I remember just likebeing a mess.
Like not being able to likecomprehend a full sentence or
two.
I remember like being at workand someone would be, Spent a
half an hour talking to me aboutwhat my assignment is for the
day, and they leave the room andwithin five seconds I'd look
over at my coworker and be like,wait, what?
(03:54):
Absolut.
I, I like, I definitely had likea fog brain, like as I was going
through dts, but like even afterthat, like I had the, like I
went to a wedding five days orsix days sober, which was not
the best idea, but I justremember it being like
everything, like you said, likevery intense.
But at the same time I was like,ready to do anything and like,
right.
But that I think is likesomething that, like we forget
(04:16):
sometimes is like that newnessof like that earnest desire of
like, you need to make this
Kristen (04:21):
work.
Right?
Which is when it goes away, youhave to find other motivations
and sort of.
Fuel, which is maybe why soberand stuck then becomes a good
topic,
Steve (04:33):
Yeah.
And since we both work aprogram, a 12 step program, what
was your experience like goingthrough the steps?
Kristen (04:41):
I mean it was really powerful.
I.
Had a sort of rough start.
I had three sponsors in likethree weeks.
But when I really got a sponsorthat I cared about a lot, she
really helped me.
I mean, it's funny now becausenow I'm doing it with a sponsee
and I just said my memories arevery intense and vivid.
(05:03):
And that's true in terms oflike, the room I was in or like
people's faces.
But when I try to now rememberlike what the hell my sponsor
said to me when I was workingstep one, it's a total blank.
I'm like, W she must have saidsomething.
It saved my life.
But did my brain record thewords so I can say them to a
spy?
No, it certainly did not.
(05:23):
But yeah, I mean, I rememberdoing a lot of.
journaling, A lot of talkingsort of at my poor sponsor.
Kind of my mouth going a mile aminute for like, especially for
the first few.
I felt a lot of relief on stepthree.
I remember like I started sayingthat prayer that I still say.
(05:45):
And then I sat on step four theway it seems like many, if not
most people do but then workedit and had a very.
Powerful step five experiencewhere I was in LA where my
sponsor lives, she'd been my youknow, we, we mostly talked over
Zoom, so we did it in person andthat was really profound.
And I, and I'm really gratefulfor it.
And then eight, nine, and 10sorry.
(06:08):
No, this is going a little long.
They were powerful.
They, they didn't have and thishas been true actually of.
A, a lot of people I've spokento, and especially women being
sponsored by women that I, Iimagined this like giant apology
tour through the wreckage of mylife and my sponsor mostly was
like, no, I don't think thatperson needs to hear from you.
So I only really did two orthree in person a.
(06:33):
A few more sort of like, andprobably should still do some
more where I just like write theletter and don't send it.
But I do think it helped a lotin that now I feel like I know
what an amend is and I can justmake it kind of casually right
away.
And then 11 and 12, I mean, I'mstill working on 11 to try and
get a prayer meditation practicegoing, but I do.
And then 12th is.
(06:53):
So now I'm in the, in the thickof it.
You're
Steve (06:56):
in the thick of it, for sure.
And while, while going throughthose steps, did you find
yourself in any ruts along theway?
Yeah, well
Kristen (07:04):
I mentioned the sort of sitting on step four.
Yeah.
That feels that felt like a rutat the time.
Or just, it just never feltsatisfying.
And even now, You know, somepeople work the steps every year
and I do feel like I got lost inthe weeds a lot that first time.
Or I just was like writing, I'mwriting, writing, I'm doing this
right?
Am I doing that right?
(07:24):
And like I kind of almost wishor have the idea that I would
try to do it again, kind of morewith my gut instead of like
getting the right answers.
Saying the true answers.
I feel like maybe I did that afew times or I like was too good
of a student.
So.
Yeah, I think less of a rut inthat.
I like it was good to, I don'tknow, my homework doing brain
(07:47):
does its homework, you know,like I, I could turn in the
paper, but like, was I engagingwith it emotionally in the best
way?
I'm not sure certainly as, aswell as I could do at the time,
but
Steve (07:55):
yeah, yeah, I, I can really, I did everything I could
to like not start the fourthstep until he was like, had no
choice but like to do anythingelse.
And I was like, Now I'll do it.
But like, right, that was a rut.
And then like, writing out allmy amends, like I was expecting
it to be, we like way worse.
And I think part of it was cuzlet, let like you, like my
sponsor was like, you don't needto get into all that.
(08:17):
Or like, they don't need to hearor like, there's no way you can
track down that person cuz youneed to learn what their first
name is like before you sleepwith them.
Like, not after, not, not afteryou've burned it all down, but
like before you get to know.
So you know, but I definitely amglad that it's done.
But it'll be interesting alsolike going back down the road
and like doing them again cuz Iknow that that's like something
(08:38):
people do right.
And like going in deeper.
Cuz I definitely think thatlike, especially.
like with my resentments, likethere were things that like I
didn't go as deep into like,well in fourth grade this person
who bullied me, like I heard fewpeople like who have like books
of things that like chronic,like go through their whole
life.
And mine was really just like,what's going on with my life at
that time?
Like my list was all people likein that job that I'm not even at
(09:00):
anymore.
Kristen (09:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I do think amends havethe most power and maybe.
are the most are useful when arelationship is ongoing.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
Like that was ask myself a lot.
Like if I've lost track, losttouch with this person, they
have not expressed any interestto hear from me for good reason.
I don't want to reconnect withthem.
(09:21):
Yeah.
What good does it do to callthem up and be like, Hey,
remember the time I sucked, likeI will continue not to do that
because we're never gonna talkagain, you know?
So I don't know.
I'm curious.
This is slightly a sidetrack.
I was talking to somebody theother day and I realized we both
sort of have the idea sometimesthat if we have a resentment,
(09:43):
there's some, not that we don'thave a part, but like is there
something for us to do?
Do you know what I mean?
Like I guess we just work.
Oh, did you freeze?
No,
Steve (09:56):
I'm here.
I was just listening veryintently.
You were, you
Kristen (09:59):
really were.
I don't even know if I wannafollow this conversational
trail, but anyway, my friend wasjust like, I had this resentment
to this person that I like,don't see and don't engage with,
and I don't really think I didanything wrong other than be
sort of jealous, you know?
(10:20):
So I can't apologize for havinglike a negative feeling.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
If I know that it's my part, solike what do I do?
And I was like, I don't know, Idon't know how you like, cause
because it, it's not quite thecorrect use of an amend to just
make a feeling go away.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
And that actually leads intolike, I don't know, we'll talk
probably about other 12 stepprograms, but like Al-Anon or
(10:42):
something where it's just like,man, relationships are
complicated and.
I, it's hard to to know how to,how to manage them well.
But anyway,
Steve (10:53):
yeah.
I think we're all figuring itout.
Yeah.
But what would you say are someof the more difficult moments
you've faced in your recovery
Kristen (11:02):
ever?
You mean in the past year and ahalf?
Yeah.
Yeah, I, well, right after I gotsober I had a kind of scary,
kind of like both.
work, but also personalsituation kind of blow up in my
face where it would've been veryscary and stressful at the best
of times.
But when I actually look at thethree, like the stuff that
(11:25):
happened in the three monthsafter I got sober I'm just like,
it's astonishing that that allhappened right then.
Like it's just ridiculous that Iwas managing that at the same
time I was managing to getsober.
And it's like, on the one hand,all of those things, like in one
way or another had their rootsof my behavior when I was
drinking.
So it's like, it's not like as Isometimes felt God was punishing
(11:48):
me, and yet the timing of it waskind of extraordinary.
And so like I think about howand I, and I mean, I was lo, I
mean, I was lucky that I had mysponsor and I had meetings and
all of that stuff at that time,and it, it adds that feeling of
(12:08):
intensity where I was just likeliving life at the highest
pitch, being like, I don't knowhow to live like somebody tell
me.
Yeah.
And all these things were kindof crashing in that were really
pushing me to my limit.
So since then I feel like youknow, I've.
Relationship conflicts or, youknow, problems with my parents
or, but there's just beennothing of like that whirlwind
(12:28):
that.
Carried me in to sobriety Yeah,I
Steve (12:32):
was gonna say, I, I remember you went through quite
the whirlwind there for likequite a while.
Like every day was like anotherepisode of like, has I know
Kristen's world turns like
Kristen (12:42):
I know, I know.
And I was like, at the time Iwas like, am I making this out?
Like, is this just life?
Have I just been drunk thiswhole, no, just a lot of really
intense things happened in likeMay, June and July or whatever
of early sobriety.
Yeah.
Thank, thank God.
Like I said, I have sobriety toget me through it, you know, but
Steve (12:59):
damn, that's awesome.
And what about any recent rutsyou've been encountering?
So,
Kristen (13:06):
yeah, well, I guess I could say about to, yeah, to
move into the question of what asobriety rut looks like.
And I wanna hear what you haveto say too.
I, I guess I started kind ofalluding to it when I was like,
I, I feel.
On the one hand, I feel strongon my sobriety.
It's at the core of my life.
(13:27):
I go to a lot of meetings.
I do a lot of service.
I have a Spee, I have a sponsor.
I don't, I've worked the steps.
I'm grateful for what is givenme, which is a lot.
At the same time, for example, alot of people say, like they
don't get cravings anymore.
(13:48):
Mm-hmm.
and I still get them every day.
Like today I wanted to like goget some ramen and I went in and
I sat down and I was like, whoa,I don't know if I can stay here
because I want a beer so bad.
Like when people to my right, myleft were drinking, I was just
like, when does that go away?
You know?
And sort of similarly, like Iwas saying about the
relationship.
(14:09):
I feel like I do try to engagewith other people differently
and I, I am better for, youknow, having worked the steps
and like made amends and allthat, but it's just like, people
still really complicate it.
I, I just think I like, have,not, like how dare they offer me
a set of tools for a living thatdon't solve all my problems in
(14:31):
18 months?
You know, like, yeah, what isthis giving my money back?
But like, yeah, I would say thatlike, the two things that both
strike me is that myinterpersonal relationships
still, like with my, witheverybody, you know what I mean?
I'm not talking about, but justlike, I often still bump up
against'em.
I don't feel like I know.
how to use the tool or I think arut is like, I feel like I'm
(14:54):
using the tools and yet I'mstill kind of like, for whatever
reason, having a hard time.
You know, if I'm not, if I'mjust not using the tools, it's
not a rut, it's just me beinglazy and I can do that.
But a rut is when I'm like, wentto a meeting and I prayed on it.
I talked to my sponsor about itand made three calls and I put
in the got box and like thisperson's still driving me crazy.
You know?
Yeah.
(15:15):
But yeah.
What about you?
What, what does
Steve (15:17):
it mean?
I mean, it really depends onlike how you define it.
Cuz like there would definitelyhave.
Ruts in my recovery where I'mnot working as hard, but it is,
like you said, like is a rut.
Just laziness because like I'vehad those times where like I
recorded a month of episodes inadvance, so I didn't have to do
any podcasting for three weeksand I wasn't planning any sober
(15:38):
socials in my area until thefollowing month.
And so like there might be likethree or four weeks.
I maybe going to three or fourmeetings a night, like a week.
But like when I go to themeetings, I'm like on my phone
playing my games the entiretime.
Like I definitely have beenguilty of having like those
kinds of ruts where like I wasstill doing the things, but it
was like the bare minimum and Iwasn't reaching out to people.
(15:59):
But like that was like a lack ofwork.
I would say that like in termsof when I was doing all the
things and it felt like itwasn't working.
Kind of burnout from like thebest week ever.
But like last week when I wentto GSM and like I saw you in New
York and.
I had like the best of my, mylife.
Like, it was a really hard,like, going back to the real
world after that, like afterspending a week like with my
(16:22):
fellows, finding this communityof like, like-minded, sober,
like queer people and just likeliving my free, authentic life
and not having a worry in theworld, or not having to work or
have sales goals or like ahusband to take care of.
And just like being out on myown, like coming back like life
was.
and like I would reach out topeople all day long.
I would go to multiple meetingsand like at the, I was like,
(16:45):
still.
I don't like my life.
Like I want to just be livingrecovery, which is impossible.
Like part of like the readingthat you
Kristen (16:52):
had me do last night, last last night, just just said.
Yeah.
But do you feel, I mean,speaking of being on your phone
and meetings, I mean, do youhave that feeling?
I sometimes I'm just.
Sometimes meetings are the mostprofound things I've ever been
to like the entire humantapestry on display.
Like people in their feelings,miracles happening, and then
other times they're so boring, Ilike cannot pay attention to
(17:14):
save my life.
And I'm just like, and it'sreally mostly true on Zoom, I
don't think, if I get to ameeting, is that true?
Sometimes I'm crawling outta myskin, but I'm not bored in the
same way.
Yeah.
But every once in a while, likeI just.
it feels like everybody's sayingthe same thing over and over and
(17:35):
over, and I just, this likebratty.
Like teenager in my head islike, I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I'm so mean.
And then it's something shiftsand I love them again, but it's
very real.
Steve (17:48):
Oh yeah.
And I, I think that like, it'salso different in that like,
since we're Zoom babies, likeyeah, people will act
differently like on a Zoommeeting than they would ever in
a person, person, like in personmeeting.
I mean there have been like in acouple in-person meetings where
I was not feeling it.
It was not for me, but like thestruggle was me staying awake
and keeping my eyes open cuzthey just kept on like closing
as I was like drifting off andit wasn't great.
(18:10):
Yeah.
But I've also been to like someof the best meetings I've been
to, I've been in person ones,but like online, you, if you
look through, like, especiallywhen I bounce and like I'm
watching all the boxes for likesketchy people.
Like remember of people I seelike clearly like doing
something else or asleep or likeclosing their eyes,
Kristen (18:26):
oh, I fell asleep in a Zoom meeting when.
Traveling the other day and Iwas so embarrassed.
I was like, on my, I thought mycamera was off and I was on my
phone, and then I was asleep,and then I was back up on my
phone, and then I looked at mycomputer and I just saw myself,
you know, like sprawled out inutter disarray and I was so
Steve (18:40):
embarrassed.
I know, and I'm sure like ithappens to people.
Yeah.
But like, like, you know, therewas one person in our meeting
for a while that like the, theend of fellowship, they're still
there and they haven't moved,and you're like, are they alive?
Like, are they breathing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, I think getting stuck.
Yeah, that was like the one timewhere, and I think just the
(19:00):
solution for that was time, likeadjusting back to life and
having to realize that like Ican't just completely change my
life cuz I had one good awesomeweek, Right.
But ultimately, like did havegood things like that weekend is
what inspired me, like move outof sales and no, I'm happy.
So it works.
Yeah.
I mean, how have you foundyourself overcoming ruts when
you get into.
(19:21):
Well, I think one
Kristen (19:22):
thing is, and we, I think we've talked about this
before too, it's like sometimes,especially at the beginner's
meeting at Mustard Seed, itfeels like, oh, I shouldn't take
up time from the people who arejust counting Daniels.
And I think.
Sometimes that's true.
Like if there's a lot ofnewcomers, I won't put my hand
up, but then I need to go to adifferent meeting because if I'm
(19:43):
not getting my hand up, likeonce my hand is up, I'm paying
attention.
If only because my ego is like,you don't wanna say something
somebody already said, you know?
Yeah.
Or whatever.
So making sure I have a reasonto pay attention, whether it's
having my hand up or service.
I think that's right.
And I also try to listen to myboredom.
That's the thing I do withwriting too.
(20:04):
If I'm bored, maybe I'm notgetting what I need.
Like, sometimes you just have topush through it.
But other times it's like maybeyou need a literature meeting or
a step meeting or another,another program, which is, you
know, something I've thoughtabout a lot and have been tr
experimenting with.
You know, cuz that's how yougrow.
So sometimes it's a sign thatlike, yeah, this is not working.
Try somewhere else.
Yeah.
(20:24):
I guess so far that's what I've,what I've been doing and
sponsorship I do think is reallylike where it's at.
I feel like if you're not tryingto sponsor.
like that's why you would payattention.
Like I did step one, like whywould I ever have to pay
attention to step one again?
It's like, oh, if I'm trying toexplain it to someone, I'm like,
oh, I actually have no idea whatit's I to learn it all over
(20:45):
again.
And I think that's probably likelong term, the real key is that
you don't actually know anythinguntil you've tried to teach it.
Yeah.
Like, yeah,
Steve (20:54):
it'll work out for me eventually.
I'm not.
Kristen (20:56):
I mean, doing it, is it working out?
It's like that story about Billbeing like, nobody's getting
sober, you know?
And then Lois is being like,spill.
You're the one who's stillsober.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Like there's no not working out.
I know, I know.
It's like hard, but yeah.
You're doing it.
It's working out.
Steve (21:13):
Yeah.
And we both have mentioned howlike service helps keep us
sober.
What does service mean to.
I
Kristen (21:19):
mean, a lot of it's just a reason I have to sh like
I have to show up, you know whatI mean?
I feel like I am codependent andresponsible enough that like,
just not wanting to get introuble or let people down is
something like, will get meoutta bed where this is good for
you and may even save your life.
Won't, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And so a lot of it is just likeexternal, it's like an
(21:41):
exoskeleton.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to make me actually goto meetings.
Yeah.
I feel like that's it.
Just like practice getting, Ihave a problem in my real life
saying no, you know, like I'llsay yes to things.
I sometimes I feel like thelike.
First explanation of service inai, which is like you're
(22:03):
inherently selfish and you needto think about other people for
a once in your goddamn life islike not quite reflective of.
Me and the way that I like amselfish.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you can be selfish byalways being like, I'm such an
angel.
I help everyone.
I say yes to everything, da, dada da da, and seething with
resentment underneath.
You know what I mean?
So for me, asking myself like,am I really being of service?
(22:27):
A thing I did actually that Ifeel like is big for me is that
I nominated.
I was nominated to be theoverall chair.
I told you about this at thegroup I go to in person.
And I just felt in my gut, I'mnot ready.
I don't wanna do this right now.
I don't think I'm the rightperson.
And it was so hard for me to belike, couldn't say no.
I had to be like, can I thinkabout it?
(22:48):
And then I called my sponsor andI was like, I don't think this
is the right service positionfor me right now.
And we talked it through and shewas like, that sounds good.
And I told the people and theywere so fine with it.
And I feel like being honestabout your capabil.
also is trying to be like, can Ireally be of service?
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Steve (23:07):
I need to hear that because I need people to like me
more than anything.
Kristen (23:12):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And it's its own set of likeprops, you know?
Mm-hmm.
and that's what Al-Anon is for.
Yeah.
The Secret.
Aa.
The sequel.
Alanon.
Mm-hmm.
Steve (23:26):
Yeah.
And if someone is listeningright now and is struggling in
their sobriety, what advicewould you have for them?
I
Kristen (23:33):
mean, go to a meeting, call your sponsor, Yeah.
Read the literature.
Make three phone calls.
I mean, that's the funny thingabout AI advice that's different
from friend advice or therapyadvice.
It's so simple, you know?
there is no other answer.
Mm-hmm.
And if you've done all thatstuff and you still have a
question, like there might notbe an answer right now.
(23:53):
Like that's the thing about likewith ruts, we might just have to
be in a rut.
Yeah.
Like that's powerlessness,right?
That's step one.
Sometimes you're just like, wow,this isn't that fun or profound
or meaningful.
Wow.
I'm so sorry that being soberisn't exciting for you right
now.
you know, like crimey of fuckingrivers, sometimes you're in a
rush.
And so that's what I would say,but also like it'll probably
(24:15):
pass cuz everything does.
but I'm in it right now, so Ialso don't have, you know, call
someone with more sobriety thanme, cuz right now this is the
problem of living rather thanone that I have solved
Steve (24:26):
Sounds good.
Well thank you so much forcoming back on and talking about
overcoming those ruts insobriety.
Kristen (24:33):
Yeah.
Noah, thanks for having me.
It's always so fun to talk toyou.
Steve (24:36):
Yes.
And this is normally the pointwhere we would plug your
socials, but they don't exist.
No, they're secret.
So instead, I will plug mine.
You can follow me at gay podcaston Instagram or email
me@gaypodcastgmail.com.
If you want more, Kristen,definitely head on over to our
Paton page cuz we're gonna headon over there for our post show
(24:57):
where we're gonna talk about ourexperiences sponsoring.
And if you want to share yourstory or again involved, email
me and follow us wherever you'relistening so you can get new
episodes when they come outevery Thursday.
Until next time, stay soberfriends.
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