February 20, 2025 • 32 mins
Hey there, Super Sober Heroes! Your host Sober Steve is here with 1,357 days sober, and this episode is extra special because we are recording in person for the first time! I’m thrilled to welcome India X Miller, a powerful advocate, trans activist, and sober warrior who has been navigating the world of recovery for over 40 years.
India shares their incredible journey of sobriety, from getting clean as a teenager to experiencing relapse and reclaiming their recovery. We talk about the unique challenges of being trans and sober, the fight for LGBTQ+ rights in Florida, and how to stay strong and connected in recovery despite all the obstacles.
From navigating gender identity to breaking barriers in 12-step spaces, India opens up about resilience, authenticity, and fighting for visibility and acceptance in both recovery and the world at large.
✨ Topics Covered:
- India’s journey through addiction, relapse, and long-term sobriety
- The power of visibility as a trans person in recovery
- How to navigate religious trauma in 12-step spaces
- The importance of gender-inclusive language in recovery
- Finding strength in community and creating LGBTQ+ safe spaces
- India’s work in media & advocacy, including their radio show
Connect with India X Miller:
📲 Instagram: @IndiaXMiller
📲 Tik-Tok: @IndiaXMiller
📻 Radio Show: Trans Cis Her on WSLR (WSLR Website)
Want More Queer Sober Community?
🌈 Join Here Queer Sober! We’re hosting a sober LGBTQ+ conference in NYC this September! Connect, learn, and celebrate with us. Learn More & Register Here
🔗 Follow gAy A on Instagram: @gAyApodcast
🎧 New episodes drop every Thursday! Hit subscribe so you never miss a show.
💬 Have a topic or guest suggestion? DM me on Instagram or email gayapodcast@gmail.com!
Thank you for tuning in, and remember: Stay queer. Stay sober. Stay unapologetically YOU. 💖✨
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve (00:00):
Hey there super sober heroes, it's your host sober
steve here with india millerHello in person if you are
watching us And I am soprivileged for you to be after
over Hundreds of episodes.
You're my first in person guest.
India (00:15):
Yeah.
I'm gosh.
I didn't know that.
Steve (00:17):
I've had even people in town But you know like friends
of ours like richard has been onthe show but we did it virtually
because he was At work, soyou're the first person actually
in the studio.
India (00:28):
I'm so flattered.
Steve (00:29):
it's very exciting.
India (00:30):
to do it
Steve (00:30):
Yes, and so I'm very excited for this interview
today.
I am 1, 357 days sober, and I amgrateful for this opportunity to
be here with you So why don'tyou introduce yourself to the
listeners and the viewers?
India (00:41):
Hello, I am India X Miller formerly Jonathan Miller
And I'm in the middle of gettingthat my name is legally changed
but I haven't updated mydriver's license because of
issues going on with passportsand things right now, but I
moved to Sarasota, Florida twoyears ago at Christmas time,
unexpectedly, and I'm fromeverywhere, but I sound very
(01:04):
Minnesotan so they'll neverbelieve I'm a native Sarasotan,
and I have been clean and soberthis time for a little over two
years.
I had eight years clean.
And made a decision to use mymom's pain meds as her caregiver
the last two nights because myback hurt, and it's all I had,
and I thought that was okay, andit wasn't.
(01:24):
And I had a talk through with mysponsor, and two nights really
unleashed the beast in my chaos.
Steve (01:32):
Yeah.
India (01:32):
If I was really working my program for me, you know that
I work and stuff like it, Iwouldn't have done that because
I know how it could have ended.
Steve (01:40):
Yeah, I mean I can definitely understand.
I appreciate that people likeyou sharing your stories of
relapse because so far I am aone chip wonder but like I knock
on wood every time I say thatbecause I also know that
Anything could happen and Inever know what will happen
because I am still relativelyearly on in this and I have
Hopefully many years of lifeleft in me.
Yeah, just want to make surelike hearing stories like yours
(02:00):
of like It's still bad outthere.
I'm like, I listen to y'all andI believe it because I know it's
bad enough out there for ussober people sometimes.
I bet if I was adding drinkingand drugs into living in this
world right now.
Yeah.
It'd be very difficult.
India (02:12):
I was a one chip wonder, I would be celebrating 40 years.
That's how long I've been in theworld of recovery.
I was 17 when I came intotreatment the first time.
Steve (02:22):
Yeah.
Today, looking at your life andhow difficult things can be in
general, what would you say isyour favorite part of being
sober?
India (02:28):
Really getting to be fully present and having
opportunities.
I can do anything when I'msober.
When I'm using like I literallycan't do anything whether I'm
like, And my use variesdepending on what's going on or
if I'm just I'm not one who hasa drink and immediately I'm
like, you know crashing the nextday
Steve (02:49):
I'm
India (02:49):
mainly because you know that we talk about substances.
Steve (02:52):
Okay.
India (02:52):
All right.
So the alcohol just makes mesick Yeah, and so I get really
sleepy and I'm always known togo to the bathroom and take a
cab home because people don'twant to leave but it introduces
that thought process that I canhave substances and manage them
okay, and I can't because if Ihave a drink whether it's a week
or, but I'll get to a placewhere I'll be like, I'm heavy,
(03:13):
just like a, just a little skoshof meth would make me thinner.
I'll just do it for a week.
Or typically it's this I want,psychologically I want to do
something with a bad guy with aparole officer and problems and
not compliant.
Dialogue about how the diseasecontinues to progress, and it
(03:33):
does not pick up.
Steve (03:35):
Yeah,
India (03:35):
like I came in like functional at 17 somewhat.
And then I, we had some cleantime.
I went back out.
It became like a party girl andwas very successful as a party
girl.
And it was a lot of fun until itwasn't.
And that was during the timewhere everybody was dying debate
community.
And that was my support network.
And some lesbian women too, ofcourse and some other trans
(03:56):
people, but it was reallypainful and my experience coming
out, I didn't have any family,for eight years.
And so that's a whole notherlong story.
I get to show people that youcan go through a lot.
Like I've gone through Reallywonderful experiences of
traveling the world and like 70countries and being an executive
and throughout my gender journeyand throughout, navigating
(04:18):
difficult times.
And I think it's really,powerful.
For me, that I know that I canget through what's going on as a
transgender woman, I would getvery out and very proud of it,
and I lead with being trans.
I don't lead with being a womanand that's not everybody's
perspective, but, I'm a transwoman.
I'm a woman because I was bornwith a condition, that I have to
(04:40):
work through.
being a trans woman in Floridais even more.
Steve (04:44):
I
India (04:44):
was
Steve (04:44):
gonna say, my heart breaks for like my brothers and
sisters and non binary likefamily like everywhere in the
world, but like even in my ownbackyard and like you are doing
the fight every day and it's soeasy for us to look at
everything that's fucked rightnow because it is.
But what can you say makes youhappy to be part?
of this community and thismovement today, despite
everything that's going onaround us.
India (05:04):
I ended up in Sarasota by accident and it is, I'm not
talking figuratively, it isliterally the epicenter of the
Christian nationalist movement.
I rented a vacation rental tobring my mom to who had
Alzheimer's for the winter, andwe wanted Gulf Shores, Alabama,
and we ended up here.
And I believe that whatever wecall a higher power, whatever is
supposed to happen, I ended uphere at probably one of the most
(05:25):
challenging times.
For a transgender person to behere and I have I'm in meetings
all the time with this womanwho, helped offer the don't say
gay bill and I'm there and I'msaying gay and I'm saying trans
so it just I feel hopeful.
I feel a sense of purpose.
I feel outraged.
(05:45):
But I don't use anythingchemically to get through that.
And I'm proud of that.
Yeah.
I'm really proud of it and I getto go into a lot of
organizations and share mystory.
And I do like a weekly thing ata treatment center here that I
get to go into.
And it's a organization thathistorically has not been
supportive of people.
And they've let me come in thereYeah.
And say, I don't believe in adeity.
(06:06):
Yeah.
That's not my thing.
And talk about my religioustrauma growing up and, how just
the word God is triggering andchurches that can be triggering
and And I get to do that and Ifeel like those people, when
they come out into whateverrooms they're going to go to for
recovery or whatever programs,hopefully I've left them with a
pretty good, at least an openmind that, they can meet
(06:27):
somebody who is transgender orLGBT or queer and have a
positive experience.
Because when I first moved here,I went to a 12 step meeting.
And I've never had anything likethat happen in my life.
I went to give someone a hug,and at the end of a big meeting
that's what we do in thatprogram.
(06:47):
And he recoiled from me and toldme to fucking kill myself, you
fucking faggot.
And that is not the generalperson here, but it was like, I
just was like, where am I?
And then I got the phone callfrom and parenthood that they
couldn't fill my prescriptionsbecause the governor had changed
the laws, it's so bad here inFlorida that that's, that's just
(07:08):
so normal that it's I'm not evengoing to tell a trans person
that the hormones they started36 years ago because I came out
as trans in 1989 originally,Before the internet and there
was no hate.
It's just like the demons wereinside my own head, versus now.
So I love that I get to be aface in the community and
addiction and alcohol abuse and,is has been such a rampant part
(07:29):
of society, but so much in, inthe LGBT queer.
Community, I think, and I have alot of, ideas why that is for
me, but it's I gave up so muchto be who I was, That it's and
in my generation the thought ofhaving children as a LGBT or
queer person wasn't even in thecards and it's so it was like,
okay, I just party every nightand everybody's got to go home
(07:49):
to their kids and, I'mdefinitely that person where the
party is fun and then veryquickly it's not.
Steve (07:54):
Yeah, the party is fun, And then I want to go right now
the party's over.
India (07:58):
And so I helped start a new LGBTQ and allies meeting in
a fellowship here where wedidn't have one.
Steve (08:04):
Yeah.
India (08:04):
That right now, I knew I was transgender ever since I
knew the word of transsexual, Iknew that was me.
But all of a sudden, it's apolitical issue, and these
problems we don't bring politicsinto meetings, just because
you're calling it a politicalissue, this is who I am.
Yeah, it's your human rights,and that's the thing.
It's a medical issue.
Steve (08:17):
Just because one person in one role says that it's a
political issue it's not.
India (08:22):
really difficult to navigate feeling comfortable
sharing what makes me want torelapse, because it is, not that
I want to relapse, but that iswhat is, It's disturbing me on
every level, so it's hard, it'stough times to navigate them.
Steve (08:37):
Yeah, I can.
It's making me sure youencounter things like that all
the time in meetings, but like Ihad even the other day I went to
my first ACA meeting and so muchof that was like powerful
information learning about likemyself in a new way.
But also one of the people atthe meeting was wearing an
American flag on their T shirtand automatically that put all
of my like emotional defenses upin a way.
(09:00):
That I normally wouldn't, andit's just so sad that as they
were sharing, I was like, also,I wasn't wrong, either, and it's
just it's sad that that's becomesomething that is almost a
weapon against us, but it's alsosomething that, like, when
people wear it, it's tomeetings, or bring it things up
into meetings, or politics, butit's just, it gets so dicey.
India (09:14):
veterans that I know, fought for that flag, and it
means so much to them, and now,you see the flag.
And you automatically assumeit's somebody that hates you,
And it's really traumatizing forthose people in particular, but
I feel the same, and I don'tunderstand how the rainbow flag
has become so traumatizing forother people, but the American
(09:35):
flag shouldn't, traumatizeanyone, but an enemy.
But the president of the UnitedStates, It's called me anti
american.
Steve (09:40):
Yeah,
India (09:41):
it's just because I'm a trans female.
He literally said those wordsyou know, I feel like that's
instigating violence and likeyou are talking about enemies
within and saying I'm antiamerican and I feel like most
people don't I don't think theyreally feel that way, but it's
those outlying not jobs.
Steve (09:58):
I've been to meetings before where it's the one or two
people will change an entireshift of a group of 20
India (10:03):
Yeah.
And so we, it's going to be,it's going to be.
They have an impact on LGBTQpeople in recovery, especially
in places where they don't have,queer accepting spaces or stuff.
It's important for me to go tothose meetings and talk about
the trauma of losing everyone toAIDS.
We have that similar experience.
And a lot of them were straightpeople, but they were addicts.
And everyone I knew was anaddict or queer, and that, which
(10:24):
was a fighting word back then.
So there is that sharedexperience that's really helpful
for me.
Steve (10:29):
What was your journey to recovery like?
India (10:31):
I was born to a mother who was on prescription
amphetamines because she wasgaining too much weight during
the pregnancy and Valium.
And so I would have been in thatcategory of, however we identify
babies that are born.
and then I had a father who was,mentally ill and drinking was
normal.
We were offered alcohol like at5, 6 years old we just didn't
(10:51):
think about things like thatback then, and so I'd go to the
bars with my dad drinking a lot,and going to nightclubs at 10
years old and drinking ice creamdrinks, as my identity started
sorting itself out, theconflicts and stuff.
I started at nine or tenrealizing I could smell
household things, and getfeelings like nail polish and
rosemint and kept progressingand then my life became more
(11:15):
chaotic.
It's hard to explain this in ashort version but I ended up,
living in a tire factory in highschool with my dad, who was very
mentally ill, like a metal hutwith cement floors and a window
Through high school he sold thecompany and moved and didn't
tell me where I became homelessmy senior year of high school
and lived in a van showered atthe truck stop and went to
(11:37):
school.
Everything was fine.
Everything was always fine.
And a teacher figured it out andput me into a house with another
student that I didn't know theirfamily and that's where I
stayed.
I was in Florida and I left andwent up to Wisconsin to go to
college.
by then I was smoking pot a lot,I was introduced to stimulants
and hallucinogens and it endedpoorly.
(11:58):
I was on the academic blacklistand then they politely just
asked me to leave.
my mother and my sister came andI was 17 years old.
I know that because they took methree hours to a treatment
center in Wisconsin, out in thecountry.
And they stayed there.
as soon as I turned 18, I walkedout.
that's where I first found 12step mediums, and a part of my
upbringing was, going to a,Pentecostal church, when it came
(12:22):
to light that I found this boyattractive.
I didn't know it was a problemand it was a huge problem, I was
possessed by demons and Ibelieved that I had exorcisms
done from the church, soimmediately my introduction into
the 12 step programs wasdifficult because I've always
had that experience of I wasdevoutly faithful.
Steve (12:41):
I
India (12:41):
had such a strong belief in my faith system, in my deity.
I thought I had a calling to be,a priest, woman, or Catholic, a
minister later.
And not having vocabulary tounderstand what I was, I felt so
different always and I feltdifferent in the treatment
center and everyone was like 50years old, which was so old when
I was 17 and everyone was therefor alcohol and I was there for
(13:05):
drugs and it felt reallyisolated and they were very
shaming a lot of times about,you're a drug addict, we just
can't control alcohol and that'sthe way it was then, So I went
to different programs and thatwas my introduction.
And I managed to get into it andstay clean, but I think it was
more the social aspect of it,that was working for me.
(13:27):
then I figured out I was trans,and that was a whole nightmare
experience to come through.
You know that, it's hard to rushthrough the story, but my coming
out experience was verytraumatic and my mother who had
the best intentions and I knowhow horrible it sounds, but, her
and I decided my best option wasto kill myself and I tried and
was not happy when it wasn'tsuccessful.
(13:49):
When I woke up in the hospitaland the psych ward and I kept
trying every way I could inthere.
I just never believed I couldhave an okay life and I knew I
was a girl and it didn't makeany sense and I thought I must
be schizophrenic and they weretrying to convince me that I
wasn't but it was the only thingthat made sense to me to so
deeply know who I was.
And so I got committed to agroup home for a year for the
(14:11):
mentally ill and that's where Iactually transitioned to female
and so I had periods beingclean, but I never truly
embraced that concept that Ihave a disease I literally have.
A disease and in every disease.
This point is to kill you,right?
Steve (14:31):
Yeah,
India (14:32):
it's oh, my life is awful.
Steve (14:33):
Yeah,
India (14:33):
That's the way.
Yeah, that's not how they work.
Just get influenza.
I'd feel better, and I alwaysthink I have it.
That's my problem.
I've got this and life takes offand I'm like, oh, my God.
I'm 30 years old and I havenothing to show and I should
work really hard and, make upfor it and at times I had a lot
of shame about being inrecovery, I didn't have any
(14:54):
shame about being, an addictbecause I was a party addict
but, being clean and I worked, Iended up working in like Wall
Street and, Talking about beinga drug addict when you know
people are dealing with millionsof dollars.
I was on the Equity side theinvestment banking side of
things.
And I still feel like thatsometimes because now because
i'm out speaking people come upto me They're like, we were
(15:16):
going to leave here But we'restaying because you said you're
going to stay and i'm like, ohmy god Like i've been on the
psych ward and i'm like don'tlisten to me I've been in a
psych ward, I've been a drugaddict, I survived somebody
trying to kill me, and torturingme, for hours in my home, And
they've never been caught, I'velived through all of that but I
really thought that, Beingtortured for six hours in a
(15:39):
chair in the basement andliterally fighting to escape
with my life.
Obviously I will never use drugsagain, right?
That is such a horrificexperience.
That would not have happened ifI wasn't using, because my
judgment would have been better.
I wouldn't even have beenlooking for a roommate because I
would have had money.
I wouldn't have wanted a partyfriendly one, I wouldn't have
said I was trans.
(16:00):
So I stayed working program, anddoing things.
But I couldn't get better.
I wanted to stay in my housebecause I owned it for 25 years
where it happened.
And I went back and forth livingas a guy over the years, not
because I stopped feeling trans,but after eight years of living
as a woman on hormones, I wentback to living as a guy because
all of my friends died of AIDS.
(16:20):
I couldn't be working, hostingparties for a living, and doing
drugs, And I had to figure outsomething completely new and I
decided I needed my family andlike maybe it would just be
easier.
And then my career took off outof nowhere.
I stayed clean for about 7 yearsafter I transitioned back.
And I can remember the momentthat I made the decision not to.
Steve (16:42):
Yeah.
India (16:42):
And I was at a wedding in Napa Valley at a vineyard with
20 people and it was 1 of myemployees and another employee
was there.
And I'm like, they're havinglike giving like wine from the
vineyard there.
And I'm like, it feels liketechnically wrong to not have a
glass of wine at a vineyard fora wedding for this couple that I
adore.
And I remember my employeelooking at me and being like,
are you sure
Steve (17:02):
Yeah, I did
India (17:03):
Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, now I'm at the
point where I think, if I useit, it goes downhill really
fast.
Yeah.
But after that point, I had aprogram, then COVID hit, sponsor
was relapsing didn't admit it,nodding off, and the pills fell
out of her purse, and all of asudden there weren't meetings
and I was in a small town inWisconsin at that point taking
(17:23):
care of my parents because Imoved over by them just because
I couldn't stay in my houseanymore.
I was able to stay clean.
I was able to transition back tofemale in that house where it
happened and I had roommates anda pit bull and security system
when that all fell apart, thatwas the exact same time my
parents were failing living withmy mom and her husband both had
Alzheimer's, she had dementia,he had Alzheimer's, they both
(17:44):
had cancer, and we made a quickdecision that it would just make
more sense than to pay.
thousands of dollars a month foreach of them to go into memory
care.
Memory care is a lot.
I want to say it was like 9, 000a month or something.
It was just insane.
For the two of them
Steve (17:57):
together?
India (17:58):
Yeah.
And I did and then again, Ithought I had it and I didn't
even know there were zoommeetings There probably were but
I didn't know about them andthere is you know This was a
very small town with a verysmall recovery community And I
was like full time trying tofigure out like how do you deal
with people that are trying towander out of the house?
I Had to put alarms on things,and so it's just like putting my
(18:19):
recovery first didn't occur tome as being important.
Because I had such a badexperience, that alone would
keep me clean.
Steve (18:26):
Yeah.
India (18:26):
But for me, I need to not only do steps, I need to apply
them.
And I need to stay connected.
If you told me I didn't need togo to meetings or do the
program, and I'd be, I couldstay clean, I'd probably do that
sometimes.
Steve (18:39):
Yeah.
India (18:40):
that joy and connection
Steve (18:41):
when I
India (18:41):
when I share some batshit crazy thing.
Steve (18:43):
Yeah.
India (18:44):
And I'm like, I'm gonna share I know I'm the only
transgender person in the room,but I just need to share where
I'm at.
And some guy with a huge pickuptruck, and six baby mamas comes
up He's like I really relatedyour share and I'm like awesome.
Yeah, I'm like, I can't imaginewhat part but it's So weird what
people get out of just beingreal.
(19:05):
Yeah, and in those meetings aremy real space that's where I'm
really authentic and I don'tfeel the need to put on a happy
face or I don't really feel muchlike that anymore, pretty
transparent for the most part,like I will cry on social media
if I need to and I'll cry in aparking lot on you and Publix or
something.
(19:26):
I don't go there anymoreactually it's important for me
to be authentic there and Idon't have any secrets at this
point in my life.
And I realized that's noteverybody's approach, but I had
a minor stroke in 2022, there'sno such thing as a minor stroke,
but I had COVID at my mom'sfuneral, and It was a really
bizarre stroke that affected mycerebellum so it's hard for me
(19:46):
to keep track of stuff anyway.
I'm just, I have this wonderfulluxury right now of just being
completely, transparent and openand honest about being in
recovery,
Steve (19:55):
I've definitely like when I first started my first thought
like does an episode I was likewhat traditions i'll just say
whatever I want as I learned Ithink like for me at least like
with these podcasts like theanonymous stuff is like the
people places and things butlike I like talking about the
fact that I do 12 step meetingsLike I don't say specifically
which ones a lot of times withpeople but like I feel like,
when I'm out and about andconnect to people the things
(20:16):
that they connect with me aboutare, like, the fact that I'm
sober from drugs and alcohol.
Yeah.
The fact that I've lost 80pounds.
The fact that I like, all thefucked up shit about me that
makes me feel icky or that Iused to feel shame over when I
shared that out loud.
That's what people connect withme about.
Absolutely.
India (20:29):
And I think it's so important to share that I'm in
recovery.
I think it's so important toshare that I'm trans because I
never realized that some peopledon't know that I'm trans.
I know it's important because Ithink it's relevant to why I'm
usually talking about what I'mtalking about.
Steve (20:40):
Yeah.
India (20:41):
And I think it's so important for people to know
that I'm in recovery.
You take on that burden that Ithink the program intended that
if I fail, then it makes theprogram look bad, but every
approach for recovery has afailure rate and a success rate.
I wish we could look at some ofthose things.
in 12 step world, and realizelike we evolve and, from the
time that these programs arewritten to now, when we live in
(21:02):
a digital age and stuff, maybethere's room to like, think
about some of these conceptsdifferently, but I find that's
really difficult.
Steve (21:09):
leave and leave the rest or take what I want and leave
the rest.
India (21:11):
but they're the ones who told me to
Steve (21:12):
take it,
India (21:13):
It's hard, right?
And it's just like genderinclusive language, is a big
battle in the programs.
And I'm like, why?
That is not a fundamental partof the program.
if we can
Steve (21:23):
update the name of our gulf so quickly.
Why can't we update the name ofhow we've been calling our
friends and loved ones?
India (21:30):
if we're going to talk about, God being our higher
power And so many people if youjust look at the world, so many
people are not believing in Godthe time this was written.
Yeah.
Why not be more open minded?
Steve (21:39):
I like higher power most of the time, and I'll use God
for a shorthand, but if I doshorthand and I'm writing, I
normally just write HP, but forme, it's higher power, For other
people, it's God.
For other people, it's theuniverse.
India (21:47):
I have a secret decoder ring that I can take God and
turn it into HP, but when I'mactively feeling very persecuted
By the same religion that I grewup in That god becomes that god
in my head pretty easily wheni'm in my trauma, I don't want
to go to meetings.
I don't want to work steps withthe word God, you know, and I
know that I'm supposed to bewell enough that I can, say
(22:08):
group of druggies or I can say,greater understanding of what
I'm doing, and sometimes it'sjust really hard for me to do
that I've gone to some secularmeetings and things, but the
controversies that we've put inthe 12 step programs of that's
not the program or that's not Igo to some inclusive meetings
that, use gender inclusivelanguage, and the readings that
like it's not, the programbecause that's not, you can't
(22:29):
mess with that.
I'm gonna do what I need to doto not use drugs and alcohol.
Steve (22:33):
that's why I'm very glad, like, when I got sober, it was
like a Zoom 9pm queer beginnersmeeting in New York City.
It was all about protectingeveryone's feelings.
And it got very difficult astime went on when I was doing
service on the back end ofhaving to protect everyone's
feelings.
But I appreciate what it does.
It's right off the bat it wasalways gender inclusive.
To the point where when I wouldgo to meetings in town, and they
were queer, and still to thisday in 2025, use gendered
(22:55):
Language and sometimes end withthe our father I'm, just like
what I can't do that about that.
I'm, just like I don'tunderstand it but at least like
now like I don't like I used tolike Visibly roll my eyes or
like a fall or want to leave andnow I can just like rip my teeth
A little bit or some days itdoesn't even bother me if i'm
working my own program very wellbut like it's hard because it's
just like When it's like ourpeople, especially like we
expect safe spaces, I feel like.
India (23:16):
mean if you've been like, if you've been molested or
sexually assaulted To expectthat person to come into a
program that has the word God,if you've been, ritually abused,
in the church or like I was had,exorcism done until you're
either possessed by demons as ateenager.
That's a lot.
Is it catching our recording?
Yeah, it is.
Oh, perfect.
I'll land the dismount.
(23:37):
Yes.
It's a lot, and I just wish we'dbe more open minded.
You know about that and I feellike it doesn't exclude people
who believe in Jesus Christ astheir personal Savior or any
God.
it's just I'm so not resistantto change that it's hard to
understand people that are gonnathrow this up the risk that
somebody might die Fromaddiction.
Steve (23:59):
Yeah,
India (23:59):
It's like it's that important to me to keep the word
Men and women or the word God orthe our father prayer, when I
know we were based off.
I don't know what we need togrow, but yeah, things can grow
and change.
And that we're in this country.
Steve (24:19):
you are part of the change and that's one of the
many things that I love aboutyou.
India (24:22):
I'm trying.
But even in the LGBTQ community,living in Florida is so
different from anywhere I'velived.
Because, yeah, I think peoplethat are from here in
particular, people that comehere, feel this need to be
behaved women or well behavedgays and some are, some people,
that's just their natural beingI can be a corporate American,
(24:43):
but I don't need to be and Ishould be celebrated the same,
whether I have purple hair orI'm wearing, a suit and that's
hard to do here, and so I feellike the diversity community
sometimes down here feels likethe Stockholm Syndrome almost,
Steve (24:56):
we make our kidnappers happy so that they don't us go
India (25:00):
along with it?
Steve (25:01):
make the people like, treat us really nice when we get
to the camps?
I'm like, I would rather fightnot to be in the camps.
India (25:05):
environment and don't get me wrong, I love my life here.
I have been treated so wellhere.
It happened on a zoom down heretoo, because all the other 2,
000 people that I've met inprograms here have been
supportive and nice, for themost part.
That's my disease mind.
Wants me to focus on thatperson.
Steve (25:24):
Yeah.
India (25:24):
And I was telling you before we started recording that
I had some guy in a parking lottoday.
I asked him to smash you in theface and it wasn't even because
I was trans, it was because Iwould talk to him about, do you
have any people that come intoyour shop?
Steve (25:37):
Yeah.
India (25:37):
Do you have any immigrants?
Steve (25:39):
Yeah.
India (25:39):
Triggered this, what I think was biracial.
I'm pretty sure it was abiracial person.
To do all of that.
Like yelling at me.
And I'm like, you're luckyyou're a girl or I'd kick your
ass.
And I'm like at least it wasgender affirming, right?
Yeah.
I had no makeup on.
I was just buying a doughnut, Ifeveryone doesn't know why that
exists, I'll tell you right now,it comes from the concentration
(26:00):
camps in Germany.
We were forced to wear these inthe streets of Nazi Germany to
identify us as queer people sowe could be humiliated and
mocked and then eventually putin concentration camps.
And when the allies liberatedthe concentration camps, all the
people who weren't LGBT werefreed.
Steve (26:18):
And
India (26:18):
I can't imagine what that felt like for people like you
and I that were there when werealized we didn't get freed
from the concentration camps.
We got moved into prisons.
And I'm like, just that momentof surviving the horrors of
Auschwitz and then that momentof oh my God, we finally were
free.
And then you're left behind.
(26:39):
And I relate to that so deeply.
Because I felt that.
When we had a black president,I'm like, oh my gosh, we're
gonna have, a new vision thateverybody has equality and equal
opportunity.
And so it's so disorienting.
For me to be at the place thatwe're in right now when we know
there are XX chromosomes and XYchromosomes, and people are
(27:00):
telling me, you can't changeyour DNA.
I'm like, but you don't knowwhat mine is, because there's
also X, and people just have anX that don't have any Y, or
another X, there's people thathave three Xs, and there's
people that have both and weknow why some of that happens,
right?
We know that a boy and a girl,twins that are in the womb,
right?
If one absorbs the other one, weknow that's a parasitic twin,
(27:21):
like we know this throughscience.
And we know when that happens,you can have both XX and XY
cells in different parts oftheir bodies.
I don't know why it's difficultfor people to understand that
things happen in the amazingprocess of being born.
Steve (27:39):
Yeah.
India (27:39):
And I've always been an advocate that I don't need to
defend why somebody is gay.
If you Love vaginas and you wereborn with a penis and that's
your thing You're like astraight man, but you go to a
gay club and you're like thatmusic is so much better
Steve (27:54):
Yeah,
India (27:54):
And they're not raising kids and they're having fun.
I'm gonna be gay like thatshould be okay Yeah, that should
be okay in a society that youjust want to be gay.
I don't think that's the casefor most people.
But it should be okay.
We don't, shouldn't have todefend it, but boy, as a
transgender person right now,and even in the queer community,
And it has always been mixedbag.
Steve (28:13):
Yeah.
India (28:14):
When I came out as trans we were not allowed in a lot of
men's gay clubs.
We didn't really have a lot oflesbian clubs around in those
days, but I went to a big clubin Los Angeles with all my gay
friends who wanted me to comebecause I was going to all the
circuit parties and things, andthey would not let me in.
Called Probe.
And it was a big old scene, andI had to take off my platforms,
that was the final straw, theyweren't going to let me in, and
(28:35):
they told all the guys that Iwas with to go into the club
ahead of me, because they wereafraid they'd get beat up, and
that I'd get beat up, and somestranger gave me his combat
boots, and I put his combatboots on, and he walked down the
street.
Barefoot, and I went into thatclub and had an amazing night
and ended up going back there.
This was like 93 probably andtalking to their employees about
being transgender, and then thatwas the bell of that club And so
(28:58):
total drugs killed everythingfor me.
And I used to go talk to classesof psychiatrists, you know about
my experience like I went frombeing desperate to stay alive
Yeah to thriving, if I'm justallowed to be and again, this
was before the internet.
It's that's how we change thingsor inform people through our
stories.
And that's why I think this isso important.
Yeah.
(29:18):
And I think documenting storieson the internet, and books, and
understanding where we've comefrom is always going to be
important.
Steve (29:26):
Yeah I mean with all of that being said to close it out
for someone if they're listeningand they're struggling to stay
sober What would you say is likethe number one thing in this
while we're living in right nowthat helps keep you?
sober
India (29:39):
I would say it's as much as I can do In giving back is
very helpful for me.
I get to do a weekly recoveryclass at a place and I get to
tell my story as part of the 12step fellowship that I'm in.
I feel connected to those peopleand it gives me an additional
(30:00):
incentive because I don't wantto see them use over that.
Steve (30:03):
Yeah.
India (30:03):
I don't want to see them give up their joy, and so that
helps me a lot.
And then just being open tomeditation medicines or
medications like East versusWest and things that I've
traditionally been pretty closeminded about.
I even go to church.
I volunteer at a lot ofchurches.
I do not identify as aChristian.
(30:24):
But I've gotten to a place whereI love the concepts that I've
read about in that message ofsocial justice in particular and
helping, disenfranchised,marginalized people focusing on
keeping myself spirituallycentered somehow, and to varying
success and then I have a greatsponsor I have a partner who's
in recovery, which is amazing,
Steve (30:45):
and is also
India (30:46):
trans, which is even crazier, and a military hero, so
that's really helpful for metoo, but I'm not going to give
up my joy, I'm not going to giveup my life.
I'm not going to wait backstagewhile we get through this
there's no dress rehearsal weare on stage, this is my life,
and I'm going to live it, and ifI'm going to go out over
(31:08):
something, it's not going to besomebody that hates on me,
that's just not how my story'sgoing to go,
Steve (31:14):
and
India (31:14):
Just the more Connected I am in the recovery world the
better.
Steve (31:18):
thank you for coming on
India (31:20):
this for so long.
Steve (31:21):
Yes, I was gonna say I'm sure that this is only the
beginning You'll have to comeback because you're gonna
hopefully I think you're gonnabe involved in here cruise over
with us, correct
India (31:28):
I hope I can afford to go to New York then
Steve (31:30):
we'll figure out even if it's like me driving you and
Jack and like we road Trip it uplike we're gonna get you up.
India (31:36):
I desperately want to be there and then I want to have
you on my radio show, and thenyou can try to help me figure
out podcasting.
I'm just trying to get my voiceout there as somebody who's not
scared as a trans person rightnow, because I realize so many
are, and I understand why.
Steve (31:48):
Perfect.
I'll definitely put all of yourapps for your social medias in
the show notes.
Any other special websites orplaces they should find you.
India (31:55):
I think I'm India X Miller on everything that I know
how to use,
Steve (31:58):
Miller on the show.
India (32:00):
Trans Cis Her, C R A N S C I S H E R radio on WSLR.
They have an app that you candownload and listen to.
Archive on there.
Steve (32:11):
Perfect.
Love it.
Excellent.
I'll be right back here.
Thank you so much listeners Andyes, you will be back here
before you know it So thank youand stay tuned for another
episode of gay a next thursday.
Bye
Hey there super sober heroes, it's your host sober
steve here with india millerHello in person if you are
watching us And I am soprivileged for you to be after
over Hundreds of episodes.
You're my first in person guest.
India (00:15):
Yeah.
I'm gosh.
I didn't know that.
Steve (00:17):
I've had even people in town But you know like friends
of ours like richard has been onthe show but we did it virtually
because he was At work, soyou're the first person actually
in the studio.
India (00:28):
I'm so flattered.
Steve (00:29):
it's very exciting.
India (00:30):
to do it
Steve (00:30):
Yes, and so I'm very excited for this interview
today.
I am 1, 357 days sober, and I amgrateful for this opportunity to
be here with you So why don'tyou introduce yourself to the
listeners and the viewers?
India (00:41):
Hello, I am India X Miller formerly Jonathan Miller
And I'm in the middle of gettingthat my name is legally changed
but I haven't updated mydriver's license because of
issues going on with passportsand things right now, but I
moved to Sarasota, Florida twoyears ago at Christmas time,
unexpectedly, and I'm fromeverywhere, but I sound very
(01:04):
Minnesotan so they'll neverbelieve I'm a native Sarasotan,
and I have been clean and soberthis time for a little over two
years.
I had eight years clean.
And made a decision to use mymom's pain meds as her caregiver
the last two nights because myback hurt, and it's all I had,
and I thought that was okay, andit wasn't.
(01:24):
And I had a talk through with mysponsor, and two nights really
unleashed the beast in my chaos.
Steve (01:32):
Yeah.
India (01:32):
If I was really working my program for me, you know that
I work and stuff like it, Iwouldn't have done that because
I know how it could have ended.
Steve (01:40):
Yeah, I mean I can definitely understand.
I appreciate that people likeyou sharing your stories of
relapse because so far I am aone chip wonder but like I knock
on wood every time I say thatbecause I also know that
Anything could happen and Inever know what will happen
because I am still relativelyearly on in this and I have
Hopefully many years of lifeleft in me.
Yeah, just want to make surelike hearing stories like yours
(02:00):
of like It's still bad outthere.
I'm like, I listen to y'all andI believe it because I know it's
bad enough out there for ussober people sometimes.
I bet if I was adding drinkingand drugs into living in this
world right now.
Yeah.
It'd be very difficult.
India (02:12):
I was a one chip wonder, I would be celebrating 40 years.
That's how long I've been in theworld of recovery.
I was 17 when I came intotreatment the first time.
Steve (02:22):
Yeah.
Today, looking at your life andhow difficult things can be in
general, what would you say isyour favorite part of being
sober?
India (02:28):
Really getting to be fully present and having
opportunities.
I can do anything when I'msober.
When I'm using like I literallycan't do anything whether I'm
like, And my use variesdepending on what's going on or
if I'm just I'm not one who hasa drink and immediately I'm
like, you know crashing the nextday
Steve (02:49):
I'm
India (02:49):
mainly because you know that we talk about substances.
Steve (02:52):
Okay.
India (02:52):
All right.
So the alcohol just makes mesick Yeah, and so I get really
sleepy and I'm always known togo to the bathroom and take a
cab home because people don'twant to leave but it introduces
that thought process that I canhave substances and manage them
okay, and I can't because if Ihave a drink whether it's a week
or, but I'll get to a placewhere I'll be like, I'm heavy,
(03:13):
just like a, just a little skoshof meth would make me thinner.
I'll just do it for a week.
Or typically it's this I want,psychologically I want to do
something with a bad guy with aparole officer and problems and
not compliant.
Dialogue about how the diseasecontinues to progress, and it
(03:33):
does not pick up.
Steve (03:35):
Yeah,
India (03:35):
like I came in like functional at 17 somewhat.
And then I, we had some cleantime.
I went back out.
It became like a party girl andwas very successful as a party
girl.
And it was a lot of fun until itwasn't.
And that was during the timewhere everybody was dying debate
community.
And that was my support network.
And some lesbian women too, ofcourse and some other trans
(03:56):
people, but it was reallypainful and my experience coming
out, I didn't have any family,for eight years.
And so that's a whole notherlong story.
I get to show people that youcan go through a lot.
Like I've gone through Reallywonderful experiences of
traveling the world and like 70countries and being an executive
and throughout my gender journeyand throughout, navigating
(04:18):
difficult times.
And I think it's really,powerful.
For me, that I know that I canget through what's going on as a
transgender woman, I would getvery out and very proud of it,
and I lead with being trans.
I don't lead with being a womanand that's not everybody's
perspective, but, I'm a transwoman.
I'm a woman because I was bornwith a condition, that I have to
(04:40):
work through.
being a trans woman in Floridais even more.
Steve (04:44):
I
India (04:44):
was
Steve (04:44):
gonna say, my heart breaks for like my brothers and
sisters and non binary likefamily like everywhere in the
world, but like even in my ownbackyard and like you are doing
the fight every day and it's soeasy for us to look at
everything that's fucked rightnow because it is.
But what can you say makes youhappy to be part?
of this community and thismovement today, despite
everything that's going onaround us.
India (05:04):
I ended up in Sarasota by accident and it is, I'm not
talking figuratively, it isliterally the epicenter of the
Christian nationalist movement.
I rented a vacation rental tobring my mom to who had
Alzheimer's for the winter, andwe wanted Gulf Shores, Alabama,
and we ended up here.
And I believe that whatever wecall a higher power, whatever is
supposed to happen, I ended uphere at probably one of the most
(05:25):
challenging times.
For a transgender person to behere and I have I'm in meetings
all the time with this womanwho, helped offer the don't say
gay bill and I'm there and I'msaying gay and I'm saying trans
so it just I feel hopeful.
I feel a sense of purpose.
I feel outraged.
(05:45):
But I don't use anythingchemically to get through that.
And I'm proud of that.
Yeah.
I'm really proud of it and I getto go into a lot of
organizations and share mystory.
And I do like a weekly thing ata treatment center here that I
get to go into.
And it's a organization thathistorically has not been
supportive of people.
And they've let me come in thereYeah.
And say, I don't believe in adeity.
(06:06):
Yeah.
That's not my thing.
And talk about my religioustrauma growing up and, how just
the word God is triggering andchurches that can be triggering
and And I get to do that and Ifeel like those people, when
they come out into whateverrooms they're going to go to for
recovery or whatever programs,hopefully I've left them with a
pretty good, at least an openmind that, they can meet
(06:27):
somebody who is transgender orLGBT or queer and have a
positive experience.
Because when I first moved here,I went to a 12 step meeting.
And I've never had anything likethat happen in my life.
I went to give someone a hug,and at the end of a big meeting
that's what we do in thatprogram.
(06:47):
And he recoiled from me and toldme to fucking kill myself, you
fucking faggot.
And that is not the generalperson here, but it was like, I
just was like, where am I?
And then I got the phone callfrom and parenthood that they
couldn't fill my prescriptionsbecause the governor had changed
the laws, it's so bad here inFlorida that that's, that's just
(07:08):
so normal that it's I'm not evengoing to tell a trans person
that the hormones they started36 years ago because I came out
as trans in 1989 originally,Before the internet and there
was no hate.
It's just like the demons wereinside my own head, versus now.
So I love that I get to be aface in the community and
addiction and alcohol abuse and,is has been such a rampant part
(07:29):
of society, but so much in, inthe LGBT queer.
Community, I think, and I have alot of, ideas why that is for
me, but it's I gave up so muchto be who I was, That it's and
in my generation the thought ofhaving children as a LGBT or
queer person wasn't even in thecards and it's so it was like,
okay, I just party every nightand everybody's got to go home
(07:49):
to their kids and, I'mdefinitely that person where the
party is fun and then veryquickly it's not.
Steve (07:54):
Yeah, the party is fun, And then I want to go right now
the party's over.
India (07:58):
And so I helped start a new LGBTQ and allies meeting in
a fellowship here where wedidn't have one.
Steve (08:04):
Yeah.
India (08:04):
That right now, I knew I was transgender ever since I
knew the word of transsexual, Iknew that was me.
But all of a sudden, it's apolitical issue, and these
problems we don't bring politicsinto meetings, just because
you're calling it a politicalissue, this is who I am.
Yeah, it's your human rights,and that's the thing.
It's a medical issue.
Steve (08:17):
Just because one person in one role says that it's a
political issue it's not.
India (08:22):
really difficult to navigate feeling comfortable
sharing what makes me want torelapse, because it is, not that
I want to relapse, but that iswhat is, It's disturbing me on
every level, so it's hard, it'stough times to navigate them.
Steve (08:37):
Yeah, I can.
It's making me sure youencounter things like that all
the time in meetings, but like Ihad even the other day I went to
my first ACA meeting and so muchof that was like powerful
information learning about likemyself in a new way.
But also one of the people atthe meeting was wearing an
American flag on their T shirtand automatically that put all
of my like emotional defenses upin a way.
(09:00):
That I normally wouldn't, andit's just so sad that as they
were sharing, I was like, also,I wasn't wrong, either, and it's
just it's sad that that's becomesomething that is almost a
weapon against us, but it's alsosomething that, like, when
people wear it, it's tomeetings, or bring it things up
into meetings, or politics, butit's just, it gets so dicey.
India (09:14):
veterans that I know, fought for that flag, and it
means so much to them, and now,you see the flag.
And you automatically assumeit's somebody that hates you,
And it's really traumatizing forthose people in particular, but
I feel the same, and I don'tunderstand how the rainbow flag
has become so traumatizing forother people, but the American
(09:35):
flag shouldn't, traumatizeanyone, but an enemy.
But the president of the UnitedStates, It's called me anti
american.
Steve (09:40):
Yeah,
India (09:41):
it's just because I'm a trans female.
He literally said those wordsyou know, I feel like that's
instigating violence and likeyou are talking about enemies
within and saying I'm antiamerican and I feel like most
people don't I don't think theyreally feel that way, but it's
those outlying not jobs.
Steve (09:58):
I've been to meetings before where it's the one or two
people will change an entireshift of a group of 20
India (10:03):
Yeah.
And so we, it's going to be,it's going to be.
They have an impact on LGBTQpeople in recovery, especially
in places where they don't have,queer accepting spaces or stuff.
It's important for me to go tothose meetings and talk about
the trauma of losing everyone toAIDS.
We have that similar experience.
And a lot of them were straightpeople, but they were addicts.
And everyone I knew was anaddict or queer, and that, which
(10:24):
was a fighting word back then.
So there is that sharedexperience that's really helpful
for me.
Steve (10:29):
What was your journey to recovery like?
India (10:31):
I was born to a mother who was on prescription
amphetamines because she wasgaining too much weight during
the pregnancy and Valium.
And so I would have been in thatcategory of, however we identify
babies that are born.
and then I had a father who was,mentally ill and drinking was
normal.
We were offered alcohol like at5, 6 years old we just didn't
(10:51):
think about things like thatback then, and so I'd go to the
bars with my dad drinking a lot,and going to nightclubs at 10
years old and drinking ice creamdrinks, as my identity started
sorting itself out, theconflicts and stuff.
I started at nine or tenrealizing I could smell
household things, and getfeelings like nail polish and
rosemint and kept progressingand then my life became more
(11:15):
chaotic.
It's hard to explain this in ashort version but I ended up,
living in a tire factory in highschool with my dad, who was very
mentally ill, like a metal hutwith cement floors and a window
Through high school he sold thecompany and moved and didn't
tell me where I became homelessmy senior year of high school
and lived in a van showered atthe truck stop and went to
(11:37):
school.
Everything was fine.
Everything was always fine.
And a teacher figured it out andput me into a house with another
student that I didn't know theirfamily and that's where I
stayed.
I was in Florida and I left andwent up to Wisconsin to go to
college.
by then I was smoking pot a lot,I was introduced to stimulants
and hallucinogens and it endedpoorly.
(11:58):
I was on the academic blacklistand then they politely just
asked me to leave.
my mother and my sister came andI was 17 years old.
I know that because they took methree hours to a treatment
center in Wisconsin, out in thecountry.
And they stayed there.
as soon as I turned 18, I walkedout.
that's where I first found 12step mediums, and a part of my
upbringing was, going to a,Pentecostal church, when it came
(12:22):
to light that I found this boyattractive.
I didn't know it was a problemand it was a huge problem, I was
possessed by demons and Ibelieved that I had exorcisms
done from the church, soimmediately my introduction into
the 12 step programs wasdifficult because I've always
had that experience of I wasdevoutly faithful.
Steve (12:41):
I
India (12:41):
had such a strong belief in my faith system, in my deity.
I thought I had a calling to be,a priest, woman, or Catholic, a
minister later.
And not having vocabulary tounderstand what I was, I felt so
different always and I feltdifferent in the treatment
center and everyone was like 50years old, which was so old when
I was 17 and everyone was therefor alcohol and I was there for
(13:05):
drugs and it felt reallyisolated and they were very
shaming a lot of times about,you're a drug addict, we just
can't control alcohol and that'sthe way it was then, So I went
to different programs and thatwas my introduction.
And I managed to get into it andstay clean, but I think it was
more the social aspect of it,that was working for me.
(13:27):
then I figured out I was trans,and that was a whole nightmare
experience to come through.
You know that, it's hard to rushthrough the story, but my coming
out experience was verytraumatic and my mother who had
the best intentions and I knowhow horrible it sounds, but, her
and I decided my best option wasto kill myself and I tried and
was not happy when it wasn'tsuccessful.
(13:49):
When I woke up in the hospitaland the psych ward and I kept
trying every way I could inthere.
I just never believed I couldhave an okay life and I knew I
was a girl and it didn't makeany sense and I thought I must
be schizophrenic and they weretrying to convince me that I
wasn't but it was the only thingthat made sense to me to so
deeply know who I was.
And so I got committed to agroup home for a year for the
(14:11):
mentally ill and that's where Iactually transitioned to female
and so I had periods beingclean, but I never truly
embraced that concept that Ihave a disease I literally have.
A disease and in every disease.
This point is to kill you,right?
Steve (14:31):
Yeah,
India (14:32):
it's oh, my life is awful.
Steve (14:33):
Yeah,
India (14:33):
That's the way.
Yeah, that's not how they work.
Just get influenza.
I'd feel better, and I alwaysthink I have it.
That's my problem.
I've got this and life takes offand I'm like, oh, my God.
I'm 30 years old and I havenothing to show and I should
work really hard and, make upfor it and at times I had a lot
of shame about being inrecovery, I didn't have any
(14:54):
shame about being, an addictbecause I was a party addict
but, being clean and I worked, Iended up working in like Wall
Street and, Talking about beinga drug addict when you know
people are dealing with millionsof dollars.
I was on the Equity side theinvestment banking side of
things.
And I still feel like thatsometimes because now because
i'm out speaking people come upto me They're like, we were
(15:16):
going to leave here But we'restaying because you said you're
going to stay and i'm like, ohmy god Like i've been on the
psych ward and i'm like don'tlisten to me I've been in a
psych ward, I've been a drugaddict, I survived somebody
trying to kill me, and torturingme, for hours in my home, And
they've never been caught, I'velived through all of that but I
really thought that, Beingtortured for six hours in a
(15:39):
chair in the basement andliterally fighting to escape
with my life.
Obviously I will never use drugsagain, right?
That is such a horrificexperience.
That would not have happened ifI wasn't using, because my
judgment would have been better.
I wouldn't even have beenlooking for a roommate because I
would have had money.
I wouldn't have wanted a partyfriendly one, I wouldn't have
said I was trans.
(16:00):
So I stayed working program, anddoing things.
But I couldn't get better.
I wanted to stay in my housebecause I owned it for 25 years
where it happened.
And I went back and forth livingas a guy over the years, not
because I stopped feeling trans,but after eight years of living
as a woman on hormones, I wentback to living as a guy because
all of my friends died of AIDS.
(16:20):
I couldn't be working, hostingparties for a living, and doing
drugs, And I had to figure outsomething completely new and I
decided I needed my family andlike maybe it would just be
easier.
And then my career took off outof nowhere.
I stayed clean for about 7 yearsafter I transitioned back.
And I can remember the momentthat I made the decision not to.
Steve (16:42):
Yeah.
India (16:42):
And I was at a wedding in Napa Valley at a vineyard with
20 people and it was 1 of myemployees and another employee
was there.
And I'm like, they're havinglike giving like wine from the
vineyard there.
And I'm like, it feels liketechnically wrong to not have a
glass of wine at a vineyard fora wedding for this couple that I
adore.
And I remember my employeelooking at me and being like,
are you sure
Steve (17:02):
Yeah, I did
India (17:03):
Sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, now I'm at the
point where I think, if I useit, it goes downhill really
fast.
Yeah.
But after that point, I had aprogram, then COVID hit, sponsor
was relapsing didn't admit it,nodding off, and the pills fell
out of her purse, and all of asudden there weren't meetings
and I was in a small town inWisconsin at that point taking
(17:23):
care of my parents because Imoved over by them just because
I couldn't stay in my houseanymore.
I was able to stay clean.
I was able to transition back tofemale in that house where it
happened and I had roommates anda pit bull and security system
when that all fell apart, thatwas the exact same time my
parents were failing living withmy mom and her husband both had
Alzheimer's, she had dementia,he had Alzheimer's, they both
(17:44):
had cancer, and we made a quickdecision that it would just make
more sense than to pay.
thousands of dollars a month foreach of them to go into memory
care.
Memory care is a lot.
I want to say it was like 9, 000a month or something.
It was just insane.
For the two of them
Steve (17:57):
together?
India (17:58):
Yeah.
And I did and then again, Ithought I had it and I didn't
even know there were zoommeetings There probably were but
I didn't know about them andthere is you know This was a
very small town with a verysmall recovery community And I
was like full time trying tofigure out like how do you deal
with people that are trying towander out of the house?
I Had to put alarms on things,and so it's just like putting my
(18:19):
recovery first didn't occur tome as being important.
Because I had such a badexperience, that alone would
keep me clean.
Steve (18:26):
Yeah.
India (18:26):
But for me, I need to not only do steps, I need to apply
them.
And I need to stay connected.
If you told me I didn't need togo to meetings or do the
program, and I'd be, I couldstay clean, I'd probably do that
sometimes.
Steve (18:39):
Yeah.
India (18:40):
that joy and connection
Steve (18:41):
when I
India (18:41):
when I share some batshit crazy thing.
Steve (18:43):
Yeah.
India (18:44):
And I'm like, I'm gonna share I know I'm the only
transgender person in the room,but I just need to share where
I'm at.
And some guy with a huge pickuptruck, and six baby mamas comes
up He's like I really relatedyour share and I'm like awesome.
Yeah, I'm like, I can't imaginewhat part but it's So weird what
people get out of just beingreal.
(19:05):
Yeah, and in those meetings aremy real space that's where I'm
really authentic and I don'tfeel the need to put on a happy
face or I don't really feel muchlike that anymore, pretty
transparent for the most part,like I will cry on social media
if I need to and I'll cry in aparking lot on you and Publix or
something.
(19:26):
I don't go there anymoreactually it's important for me
to be authentic there and Idon't have any secrets at this
point in my life.
And I realized that's noteverybody's approach, but I had
a minor stroke in 2022, there'sno such thing as a minor stroke,
but I had COVID at my mom'sfuneral, and It was a really
bizarre stroke that affected mycerebellum so it's hard for me
(19:46):
to keep track of stuff anyway.
I'm just, I have this wonderfulluxury right now of just being
completely, transparent and openand honest about being in
recovery,
Steve (19:55):
I've definitely like when I first started my first thought
like does an episode I was likewhat traditions i'll just say
whatever I want as I learned Ithink like for me at least like
with these podcasts like theanonymous stuff is like the
people places and things butlike I like talking about the
fact that I do 12 step meetingsLike I don't say specifically
which ones a lot of times withpeople but like I feel like,
when I'm out and about andconnect to people the things
(20:16):
that they connect with me aboutare, like, the fact that I'm
sober from drugs and alcohol.
Yeah.
The fact that I've lost 80pounds.
The fact that I like, all thefucked up shit about me that
makes me feel icky or that Iused to feel shame over when I
shared that out loud.
That's what people connect withme about.
Absolutely.
India (20:29):
And I think it's so important to share that I'm in
recovery.
I think it's so important toshare that I'm trans because I
never realized that some peopledon't know that I'm trans.
I know it's important because Ithink it's relevant to why I'm
usually talking about what I'mtalking about.
Steve (20:40):
Yeah.
India (20:41):
And I think it's so important for people to know
that I'm in recovery.
You take on that burden that Ithink the program intended that
if I fail, then it makes theprogram look bad, but every
approach for recovery has afailure rate and a success rate.
I wish we could look at some ofthose things.
in 12 step world, and realizelike we evolve and, from the
time that these programs arewritten to now, when we live in
(21:02):
a digital age and stuff, maybethere's room to like, think
about some of these conceptsdifferently, but I find that's
really difficult.
Steve (21:09):
leave and leave the rest or take what I want and leave
the rest.
India (21:11):
but they're the ones who told me to
Steve (21:12):
take it,
India (21:13):
It's hard, right?
And it's just like genderinclusive language, is a big
battle in the programs.
And I'm like, why?
That is not a fundamental partof the program.
if we can
Steve (21:23):
update the name of our gulf so quickly.
Why can't we update the name ofhow we've been calling our
friends and loved ones?
India (21:30):
if we're going to talk about, God being our higher
power And so many people if youjust look at the world, so many
people are not believing in Godthe time this was written.
Yeah.
Why not be more open minded?
Steve (21:39):
I like higher power most of the time, and I'll use God
for a shorthand, but if I doshorthand and I'm writing, I
normally just write HP, but forme, it's higher power, For other
people, it's God.
For other people, it's theuniverse.
India (21:47):
I have a secret decoder ring that I can take God and
turn it into HP, but when I'mactively feeling very persecuted
By the same religion that I grewup in That god becomes that god
in my head pretty easily wheni'm in my trauma, I don't want
to go to meetings.
I don't want to work steps withthe word God, you know, and I
know that I'm supposed to bewell enough that I can, say
(22:08):
group of druggies or I can say,greater understanding of what
I'm doing, and sometimes it'sjust really hard for me to do
that I've gone to some secularmeetings and things, but the
controversies that we've put inthe 12 step programs of that's
not the program or that's not Igo to some inclusive meetings
that, use gender inclusivelanguage, and the readings that
like it's not, the programbecause that's not, you can't
(22:29):
mess with that.
I'm gonna do what I need to doto not use drugs and alcohol.
Steve (22:33):
that's why I'm very glad, like, when I got sober, it was
like a Zoom 9pm queer beginnersmeeting in New York City.
It was all about protectingeveryone's feelings.
And it got very difficult astime went on when I was doing
service on the back end ofhaving to protect everyone's
feelings.
But I appreciate what it does.
It's right off the bat it wasalways gender inclusive.
To the point where when I wouldgo to meetings in town, and they
were queer, and still to thisday in 2025, use gendered
(22:55):
Language and sometimes end withthe our father I'm, just like
what I can't do that about that.
I'm, just like I don'tunderstand it but at least like
now like I don't like I used tolike Visibly roll my eyes or
like a fall or want to leave andnow I can just like rip my teeth
A little bit or some days itdoesn't even bother me if i'm
working my own program very wellbut like it's hard because it's
just like When it's like ourpeople, especially like we
expect safe spaces, I feel like.
India (23:16):
mean if you've been like, if you've been molested or
sexually assaulted To expectthat person to come into a
program that has the word God,if you've been, ritually abused,
in the church or like I was had,exorcism done until you're
either possessed by demons as ateenager.
That's a lot.
Is it catching our recording?
Yeah, it is.
Oh, perfect.
I'll land the dismount.
(23:37):
Yes.
It's a lot, and I just wish we'dbe more open minded.
You know about that and I feellike it doesn't exclude people
who believe in Jesus Christ astheir personal Savior or any
God.
it's just I'm so not resistantto change that it's hard to
understand people that are gonnathrow this up the risk that
somebody might die Fromaddiction.
Steve (23:59):
Yeah,
India (23:59):
It's like it's that important to me to keep the word
Men and women or the word God orthe our father prayer, when I
know we were based off.
I don't know what we need togrow, but yeah, things can grow
and change.
And that we're in this country.
Steve (24:19):
you are part of the change and that's one of the
many things that I love aboutyou.
India (24:22):
I'm trying.
But even in the LGBTQ community,living in Florida is so
different from anywhere I'velived.
Because, yeah, I think peoplethat are from here in
particular, people that comehere, feel this need to be
behaved women or well behavedgays and some are, some people,
that's just their natural beingI can be a corporate American,
(24:43):
but I don't need to be and Ishould be celebrated the same,
whether I have purple hair orI'm wearing, a suit and that's
hard to do here, and so I feellike the diversity community
sometimes down here feels likethe Stockholm Syndrome almost,
Steve (24:56):
we make our kidnappers happy so that they don't us go
India (25:00):
along with it?
Steve (25:01):
make the people like, treat us really nice when we get
to the camps?
I'm like, I would rather fightnot to be in the camps.
India (25:05):
environment and don't get me wrong, I love my life here.
I have been treated so wellhere.
It happened on a zoom down heretoo, because all the other 2,
000 people that I've met inprograms here have been
supportive and nice, for themost part.
That's my disease mind.
Wants me to focus on thatperson.
Steve (25:24):
Yeah.
India (25:24):
And I was telling you before we started recording that
I had some guy in a parking lottoday.
I asked him to smash you in theface and it wasn't even because
I was trans, it was because Iwould talk to him about, do you
have any people that come intoyour shop?
Steve (25:37):
Yeah.
India (25:37):
Do you have any immigrants?
Steve (25:39):
Yeah.
India (25:39):
Triggered this, what I think was biracial.
I'm pretty sure it was abiracial person.
To do all of that.
Like yelling at me.
And I'm like, you're luckyyou're a girl or I'd kick your
ass.
And I'm like at least it wasgender affirming, right?
Yeah.
I had no makeup on.
I was just buying a doughnut, Ifeveryone doesn't know why that
exists, I'll tell you right now,it comes from the concentration
(26:00):
camps in Germany.
We were forced to wear these inthe streets of Nazi Germany to
identify us as queer people sowe could be humiliated and
mocked and then eventually putin concentration camps.
And when the allies liberatedthe concentration camps, all the
people who weren't LGBT werefreed.
Steve (26:18):
And
India (26:18):
I can't imagine what that felt like for people like you
and I that were there when werealized we didn't get freed
from the concentration camps.
We got moved into prisons.
And I'm like, just that momentof surviving the horrors of
Auschwitz and then that momentof oh my God, we finally were
free.
And then you're left behind.
(26:39):
And I relate to that so deeply.
Because I felt that.
When we had a black president,I'm like, oh my gosh, we're
gonna have, a new vision thateverybody has equality and equal
opportunity.
And so it's so disorienting.
For me to be at the place thatwe're in right now when we know
there are XX chromosomes and XYchromosomes, and people are
(27:00):
telling me, you can't changeyour DNA.
I'm like, but you don't knowwhat mine is, because there's
also X, and people just have anX that don't have any Y, or
another X, there's people thathave three Xs, and there's
people that have both and weknow why some of that happens,
right?
We know that a boy and a girl,twins that are in the womb,
right?
If one absorbs the other one, weknow that's a parasitic twin,
(27:21):
like we know this throughscience.
And we know when that happens,you can have both XX and XY
cells in different parts oftheir bodies.
I don't know why it's difficultfor people to understand that
things happen in the amazingprocess of being born.
Steve (27:39):
Yeah.
India (27:39):
And I've always been an advocate that I don't need to
defend why somebody is gay.
If you Love vaginas and you wereborn with a penis and that's
your thing You're like astraight man, but you go to a
gay club and you're like thatmusic is so much better
Steve (27:54):
Yeah,
India (27:54):
And they're not raising kids and they're having fun.
I'm gonna be gay like thatshould be okay Yeah, that should
be okay in a society that youjust want to be gay.
I don't think that's the casefor most people.
But it should be okay.
We don't, shouldn't have todefend it, but boy, as a
transgender person right now,and even in the queer community,
And it has always been mixedbag.
Steve (28:13):
Yeah.
India (28:14):
When I came out as trans we were not allowed in a lot of
men's gay clubs.
We didn't really have a lot oflesbian clubs around in those
days, but I went to a big clubin Los Angeles with all my gay
friends who wanted me to comebecause I was going to all the
circuit parties and things, andthey would not let me in.
Called Probe.
And it was a big old scene, andI had to take off my platforms,
that was the final straw, theyweren't going to let me in, and
(28:35):
they told all the guys that Iwas with to go into the club
ahead of me, because they wereafraid they'd get beat up, and
that I'd get beat up, and somestranger gave me his combat
boots, and I put his combatboots on, and he walked down the
street.
Barefoot, and I went into thatclub and had an amazing night
and ended up going back there.
This was like 93 probably andtalking to their employees about
being transgender, and then thatwas the bell of that club And so
(28:58):
total drugs killed everythingfor me.
And I used to go talk to classesof psychiatrists, you know about
my experience like I went frombeing desperate to stay alive
Yeah to thriving, if I'm justallowed to be and again, this
was before the internet.
It's that's how we change thingsor inform people through our
stories.
And that's why I think this isso important.
Yeah.
(29:18):
And I think documenting storieson the internet, and books, and
understanding where we've comefrom is always going to be
important.
Steve (29:26):
Yeah I mean with all of that being said to close it out
for someone if they're listeningand they're struggling to stay
sober What would you say is likethe number one thing in this
while we're living in right nowthat helps keep you?
sober
India (29:39):
I would say it's as much as I can do In giving back is
very helpful for me.
I get to do a weekly recoveryclass at a place and I get to
tell my story as part of the 12step fellowship that I'm in.
I feel connected to those peopleand it gives me an additional
(30:00):
incentive because I don't wantto see them use over that.
Steve (30:03):
Yeah.
India (30:03):
I don't want to see them give up their joy, and so that
helps me a lot.
And then just being open tomeditation medicines or
medications like East versusWest and things that I've
traditionally been pretty closeminded about.
I even go to church.
I volunteer at a lot ofchurches.
I do not identify as aChristian.
(30:24):
But I've gotten to a place whereI love the concepts that I've
read about in that message ofsocial justice in particular and
helping, disenfranchised,marginalized people focusing on
keeping myself spirituallycentered somehow, and to varying
success and then I have a greatsponsor I have a partner who's
in recovery, which is amazing,
Steve (30:45):
and is also
India (30:46):
trans, which is even crazier, and a military hero, so
that's really helpful for metoo, but I'm not going to give
up my joy, I'm not going to giveup my life.
I'm not going to wait backstagewhile we get through this
there's no dress rehearsal weare on stage, this is my life,
and I'm going to live it, and ifI'm going to go out over
(31:08):
something, it's not going to besomebody that hates on me,
that's just not how my story'sgoing to go,
Steve (31:14):
and
India (31:14):
Just the more Connected I am in the recovery world the
better.
Steve (31:18):
thank you for coming on
India (31:20):
this for so long.
Steve (31:21):
Yes, I was gonna say I'm sure that this is only the
beginning You'll have to comeback because you're gonna
hopefully I think you're gonnabe involved in here cruise over
with us, correct
India (31:28):
I hope I can afford to go to New York then
Steve (31:30):
we'll figure out even if it's like me driving you and
Jack and like we road Trip it uplike we're gonna get you up.
India (31:36):
I desperately want to be there and then I want to have
you on my radio show, and thenyou can try to help me figure
out podcasting.
I'm just trying to get my voiceout there as somebody who's not
scared as a trans person rightnow, because I realize so many
are, and I understand why.
Steve (31:48):
Perfect.
I'll definitely put all of yourapps for your social medias in
the show notes.
Any other special websites orplaces they should find you.
India (31:55):
I think I'm India X Miller on everything that I know
how to use,
Steve (31:58):
Miller on the show.
India (32:00):
Trans Cis Her, C R A N S C I S H E R radio on WSLR.
They have an app that you candownload and listen to.
Archive on there.
Steve (32:11):
Perfect.
Love it.
Excellent.
I'll be right back here.
Thank you so much listeners Andyes, you will be back here
before you know it So thank youand stay tuned for another
episode of gay a next thursday.
Bye
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